Malaysia Says Piracy (Might Be) OK for Learning

mkbz writes "a Malaysian newspaper published a story quoting Malaysia's Domestic Trade and Consumer Affairs Minister, Muhyiddin Yassin, who condemned the use of pirated software for business, but also said they may turn a blind eye to piracy when it comes to education: "But for educational purposes and to encourage computer usage, we may consider allowing schools and social organisations to use pirated software." is learning more important than copyright enforcement? could each of the pirated works found in schools be written off as donations? how can this benefit both the people AND the software makers? Read the full article here."

Comments

yes its ok

[cormster]

Well i started with some graphics apps i "found" a few years back now i own my own graphics design company. And now i pay for all the software.

Re:yes its ok

[Anonymous Coward]

Same here. I started learning on "borrowed" copies of certain graphic applications when I was like 15. Now I'm older and work as a professional graphic designer, and since I won't use anything but the tools I learned on when I was a kid, our company has to purchase them.

I'm very, very sure they, like all the other big software companies, know about this sort of thing. I mean, if they were really losing money on their products, wouldn't they have taken steps over the past few years to increase copy protection, and wouldn't we have seen a lot of big companies go under because of piracy? Obviously not. Piracy gives these companies the chance to expose their products to consumers that would otherwise not be able to obtain them (because they'd be too expensive to obtain through legal means). So really they're not losing customers, they're just increasing the amount of people that rely and depend on their products. When these people go work for companies, they'll start demanding the applications they are used to using, which results in LEGALLY purchased copies (often in bulk, which means more $$$).

Re:yes its ok

[Erwos]

You are stealing intellectual property by warezing, no matter who you are. You can rationalize all day and night, but at the end of the day, it's illegal here in the USA to do that. If companies want to give software for free to beginners, that's great and probably sensible, but you're not giving them the option if you just go and warez it.

Anecdote:
If you steal a Stratus from my car dealership, use it to earn money and buy a Viper, and return the Viper to me in exchange for the Stratus two years later, you've still committed a crime, whether or not the Viper is worth more and is a fair trade. Maybe I would have agreed to a deal (Stratus for Viper in two years) - but you have to give me the option, first.

-Erwos

Re:yes its ok

[Weh]

man, the software vendors *only* lose money when someone warezes their product if it keeps them from buying that particular product. Do you honestly believe a 15 year old can afford photo-shop? Or that his parents are going to buy it for him (unless they are rich). Your analogy is seriously flawed, copying something is very different from stealing a physical product like a car.

Re:yes its ok

[Anonymous Coward]

OK please do not say "steal" that is not what it is. So stop trying to criminalize it by using the wrong words. Im tired of you people saying "stealing". It's creating an image of another's work. If I draw a picture of a car, that is not "stealing". If I play a song I heard on the radio, that is not stealing. What I did was create an image.

Re:yes its ok

[SerpentMage]

Well it really depends how you look at things. In one country one does one thing and another one does another.

For example, drugs are illegal, death penalty is legal, carrying a machine gun is legal in the USA. In Holland drugs are legal, most other "western" countries death penalty is illegal, machine guns in most places are illegal.

Now before you say this is stealing, it depends what you consider software to be. Is it a product or is copyright. If it is a product then by American definition there must be consumer protection against defects. Oh yeah wait, if you have bugs, tough! Therefore it is not a product, but copyright. And in copyright there is a concept such as fair use and host of other issues. And copyrights are held to different levels in different countries in different settings. Just like said here, education fine, corporate usage not!

So before you start comparing that quick lets first figure out what software really is!

Re:yes its ok

[arielb]

that's nonsense. They lost money (a real thing) because you illegally didn't pay for what you owe. With your logic I can simply steal all your cash and just give back the actual value of the paper and ink used to print it. Or is it that you are incapable of abstract thought?

Re:yes its ok

[Beliskner]

Well it really depends how you look at things. In one country one does one thing and another one does another. For example, drugs are illegal, death penalty is legal, carrying a machine gun is legal in the USA. In Holland drugs are legal, most other "western" countries death penalty is illegal, machine guns in most places are illegal

Right on, I just saw a TV program about Indian call centres, I was complaining about my taxes being high, and then I saw this Indian kid working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week to make 20 dollars per month, he needs $1600 to pay for his Mother's operation otherwise she's dead. National free healthcare and Medicare are brilliant, and after seeing that I'm happy to pay my taxes to fund them.

It's easy to say in ignorance that companies should sell software to companies and give it free for people to learn, but they assume you'll pirate it anyway. Like Adobe said it wanted Skylarov jailed, but they didn't EXPECT it to actually happen. "Put all the software pirates in jail" is something the sales department would say (and they talk VERY loudly and forcefully). The CEO on the other hand would definitely recognise the learning effect of pirated software, but the massive cost of consulting lawyers to actually release two tiers of the product and splitting/forking the codebase to give a different free version are prohibitive. It took me 10 days to make a minor alteration to a shareware contract just to allow distribution. This is because at the end of the day every lawyer knows that a Judge can spend 8 hours debating the meaning of one word, and that your entire case will depend on the outcome.

This is why the BSA targets corporations only, they know that if they went after the public that the ACLU, FSF would bring a whole pile of trouble on their heads, and BSA's customers won't want to be associated with this so the BSA would lose its funding.

Re:yes its ok

[plague3106]

What if i had a device to clone the Stratus (a la star trek)? Have i stolen anything? I didn't buy the car from them, but they aren't missing it either. And if such technology did exist, wouldn't it make such matters irrelevent since we can produce cars effortlessly and with little cost?

Such technology does not exist for cars, but it does for sound, video and other data. Data can be cloned endlessly, thus it has no value. So why are we artifically trying to keep something scarce that we can copy endlessly?

Re:yes its ok

[BollocksToThis]

You can't LOSE money that was never going to be PAID to you. 'Losses' to piracy are fictional numbers, pulled with great care from some executives arse. You can even see the ridiculous methods the BSA use to ESTIMATE the effects of piracy.

With your logic I can simply steal all your cash and just give back the actual value of the paper and ink used to print it

Umm, no, with his logic, you are perfectly entitled to take a photograph of all his money.
What you describe is STEALING, and he was attempting to point out that CREATING A COPY is not the same thing.

Re:yes its ok

[Anonvmous Coward]

I can't believe you got modded as 'insightful' despite your seriously flawed metaphor.

Re:yes its ok

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I am not making an exact copy. digitizing somthing isn't exact, It can't be and never will. SO YOU GET IT RIGHT YOU FUCKING LIAR.

Re:yes its ok

[plague3106]

Do the rest of us a favour, and stay in the "USA". Please.

I must say i find your gross ignorance apalling. You seem to sugest that all americans feel the same as the one you were replying to. Thats not the case at all. I sure as hell would be trashed (and rightfully so) for saying that all french are cowards.

Please don't generalize americans like that. Yes my country has made its share of mistakes, but so has every other one. There are good and evil people in this country, just as tehre are in every other one.

Re:yes its ok

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

Your fallacy is so subtle, you can barely detect. Practiced awhile to get it right, eh?

You see, he's been trained as a professional corporate sycophant, people, so be careful. Very very dangerous.

He'll claim that you're only "rationalizing" no matter what valid argument you have. In effect, he shuts down any and all debate. Let's dissect it further.

Rationalizing, in its most proper form, is still a dubious psychobabble concept. If you were to apply it fairly, it would be in an example as such "the sociopath reasoned that the victim would die someday, so what is the difference if he let her live...". It means using reason in a way that stretches its definition, appearing to be reasonable when you actually aren't. This term is on shaky ground to begin with, but then Erwhos slides an earthquake underneath it.

Now, by claiming that you are rationalizing, he makes it seem that you shouldn't be taken seriously. That's right, no matter how serious you are, no matter how well founded your points, he undermines them pre-emptively. He refuses to even give them any credit, sincerity, honesty, wisdom... you don't get any of those, and he all but says he has decided before ever hearing a word out of your mouth.

In a way, it reminds me of how the religious are supposed to behave, nothing can ever disprove what they believe, and if it appears to do so the experiment can only be false.

Re:yes its ok

[homer_ca]

How many times do we have to repeat this?

Copyright infringement != Theft

Yes, it's illegal, but it's not theft. It's a different offense covered by a different part of the criminal code. Calling it theft equates intellectual property with physical property which is false.

Re:yes its ok

[glitch!]

What if i had a device to clone the Stratus (a la star trek)? Have i stolen anything?

Stolen? No, of course not. The words "theft" and "stealing" are wrong for this situation.

I didn't buy the car from them, but they aren't missing it either.

That is true, and your point makes sense when we apply it to the cost of the physical materials and the direct labor to make the copies. The car company has obviously not lost those assets.

There is another factor, however. That is the value of the engineering. The car company spent money to create the information needed to build the car. This includes intellectual labor, like mechanical design, software, compliance with government regulations, documentation, and all kinds of other things. Someone has to pay for all this. Normally, the car company will simply add it to the sales price and everyone is happy.

With your scenario, the car company spends all that engineering money, and gets paid how? Do you expect that your neighbors will pay the cost so that you don't have to? Or do you suggest that the "rich" (eg, everyone else) pay for the engineering?

In many cases, scarcity is a major component of the "value" of an item. Making counterfeit goods reduces the value of the legitimate goods. For many cars, this is another important factor. If you make an unauthorized copy of a Ferrari, you are reducing the value of the cars owned by people who bought the legit ones.

Scarcity can also be an important factor in the value of software. Suppose I pay $1000 for a program that will do amazing things, for which that I can get consulting dollars. Part of the value in this purchase is knowing that my competitors will also have to pay $1000 before they can compete with me. Just like paying for an exclusive license or exclusive territory for something, the price I had to pay might be an important competitive advantage. I have paid for that advantage, and I do not think it is fair that some kid (who cannot afford the program) can use an unauthorized copy of the program to compete with me.

Re:yes its ok

[Anonymous Coward]

Typical response by the amoral youth of today - "Stealing is OK as long as I profit from it" or "It's not stealing - it's just another form of 'borrowing'"

AND YOU PEOPLE WHO DO NOTHING TO CURB THIS AMORAL BELIEF ARE GOING TO HAVE THESE BODY-PIERCED, XTC-ADDICTED F U C K - H E A D S RUNNING THIS COUNTRY IN 20 YEARS!!!! THE "PERMISSIVE" PARENTING OF TODAY HAVE PRODUCED THE AMORAL, LAW-BREAKING, MENTALLY-DEFICIENT YOUTH OF TODAY!

SPANK YOUR CHILDREN AND TELL THEM TO FOLLOW THE "RULES" BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!!

ARREST HACKERS!!!! ARREST CRACKERS!!!!

Re:yes its ok

[ScottKin]

Excuse me?!?!

Taking and/or receiving items that have value without paying the price for such items is THEFT, whether it be a car, software or a "Snickers" bar

I DARE YOU TO PROVE ME WRONG!!!!!

Re:yes its ok

[Anonymous Coward]

But imaging items of value is not theft. There proven wrong.

Re:yes its ok

[Anonymous Coward]

The one thing I like about the internet is that it allows everyone a chance to speak their opinion. I mean even a dipshit retarded old guy sitting on the john can speak his his two cents. Even though he doen't know that he is a washed up dick lick loser. God bless the internet.

Re:yes its ok

[geekindustries]

Taking and/or receiving items that have value without paying the price for such items is THEFT, whether it be a car, software or a "Snickers" bar

Let me explain this. In your example, the car company and the candy company spent money to produce that product and need to you to buy it to turn a profit. However, if I copy the software it is not the same. The company did not lose money. Why? Because I wouldn't have bought it because it's so damn expensive. How is this THEFT? I understand that it is illegal (and rightfully so), but it is certainly not "theft". You can not apply the same rules to concrete (car, snickers) and abstract (software, music) things.

Re:yes its ok

[kz45]

This is why the BSA targets corporations only, they know that if they went after the public that the ACLU, FSF would bring a whole pile of trouble on their heads, and BSA's customers won't want to be associated with this so the BSA would lose its funding.

is that before or after the hypocritical FSF goes after a company for violating the GPL?

Re:yes its ok

[kz45]

What if i had a device to clone the Stratus (a la star trek)? Have i stolen anything? I didn't buy the car from them, but they aren't missing it either. And if such technology did exist, wouldn't it make such matters irrelevent since we can produce cars effortlessly and with little cost?

it costs nothing to replicate, but sometimes it costs millions of dollars to actually CREATE software such as adobe photoshop. This is what you are taking away from a company by pirating it. (or paying for when you actually buy it).

Such technology does not exist for cars, but it does for sound, video and other data. Data can be cloned endlessly, thus it has no value. So why are we artifically trying to keep something scarce that we can copy endlessly?

data has no value?

Then lets see you "create" the movie the matrix at your house, or how about the new creed album? or how about a car? If you can't (and you have an actualy use for them), it means the items in question have a value.

Re:yes its ok

[Sunnan]

The FSF would go after all software hoarders if they could, but unfortunately they only have legal power to go after the ones who violate the GPL (and only on software copyright FSF). Sad but true.

Hypocrisy is insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that you do not really have. The FSF does not go after GPL violators to "promote lawfulness", they do it in accordancy with their philosophy.

Re:yes its ok

[mymojo]

hey man, i don't get it. a company or someone invests money to produce a software on a disc. then people don't buy it because they think it's too expensive. so they ripped that thing of from someone who did buy it, and before you know it, millions of people are using that software getting the intended results an getting whatever they wanted, but that company or someone is not seeing his/her's product moving of the shelves at all?? how can THAT mean they are not losing money?

Re:yes its ok

[Anonymous Coward]

My 15 year old brother bought 3D studio Max, educational license, as well as several other expensive pieces of software. Spent just about all his money saved over several years. And he doesn't have a job or allowance, so figure kids in with both of those. They really want it, they can buy it. Now of course, Maya is given out free and so is SoftImage (limited editions of some type).

Re:yes its ok

[Anonymous Coward]

> I saw this Indian kid working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week to make 20 dollars per month

Seems unrealistically low to me. A minimum acceptable wage in India these days would be $100 a month, with $200 being more realistic. A Dell call centre I know pays $250/mo to entry level engineers. Dirt cheap by US standards, yes, but that can get you a fairly comfortable living by Indian standards.

Re:yes its ok

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you saying they lost money because demand for thier program dwindles when there are extra copies. That might not be true. I think if people couldn't get stuff for free then they wouldn't use it at all as I know many people who would like to learn to draw with macromedia products but can't afford them so they just draw on paper. Especially if is something like software where you don't need it to live. Its not like a car or gas or food ect.
I know the whole economy is based on the idea of scarce resources and if resources arent scarce then people don't need to work for them. I mean, back in the great depression the government used to destoy livestock in order to create demand. If there are plenty of resources, then why work. Thats essentially the problem with software or intellectual property in general. There are no scarce resources. You can create exact copies of somthing with no overhead. Just imagine what a machine that could make copies of cars, boats, food, anything you could think of. What would that do to the economy. Well we wouldnt have to work at all it would be a neat utopian society.

Re:yes its ok

[rash]

hahaha
he is quite an idiot.
if he gets a job as a 3d artist his co-workers will laugh at him.

Re:yes its ok

[Blackneto]

If you are using it without permission of the copyright holder there is a name for that.
Not sure what it would be besides theft. It's not plagerism unless you are presenting it as your own work. You certainly aren't borrowing it.
Stop trying to soothe your conscience by painting it pretty.
You know what you are doing when you copy the software. Grow a set and own up to it.

Re:yes its ok

[Blackneto]

If you are using it without permission of the copyright holder there is a name for that.
You certainly aren't borrowing it.
Stop trying to soothe your conscience by painting it pretty calling it Infringement or other such nonsense.
You know what you are doing when you copy the software. Grow a set and own up to it.

Re:yes its ok

[Blackneto]

So if you are using something with out the permission of the owner, The physical owner or copyright owner, what would you call it?

Re:yes its ok

[Anonymous Coward]

you can't own ideas. Its not a "physical entity"

Re:yes its ok

[kuiken]

"This is what you are taking away from a company by pirating it."

When are ppl going to realize that 1 pirated copy =! 1 less copy sold

You think all those kids running photoshop are going to fork out 918.00 Euro for it if they cant pirate it ?
Hell No, They Either not going to bother doing GFX stuff, or use an other product they can copy.
End result less ppl knowing how to use Photoshop enter the labour market, more ppl knowing how to use Widgetshop, companies start switching from Photoshop to Widgetshop, adobe loses market share

Re:yes its ok

[Anonymous Coward]

Artificial scarcity is just plain wrong. The De Beers that own 80% of all the diamonds keep them out of circulation to increase the value of the ones they sell. Actually, diamonds are a cheap commodity, but since they lock the stuff up it creates artificial scarcity which essentially forces people to work to pay for scarce items. It basically is used as a tool to get someone else to do work for them. I hate the fact that they can do that.

Re:yes its ok

[Keith_Beef]

Are you deliberately refusing to understand?

Maybe you're just very, very new to this discussion, and have missed the past twenty years' worth of debate.

First, I'll pick a hole in your over-simplified statement:

Taking and/or receiving items that have value without paying the price for such items is THEFT, whether it be a car, software or a "Snickers" bar

I'll give you a Snickers bar. If you receive it, just say thanks, and don't pay for it, you are not a thief.

Right, that's not so hard to understand, it it?

Now, last month I saw a photograph in a of a very nice wooden bowl, oval, about 35cm long and 8cm wide, hand carved in birch wood. It took the internationally renowned sculptor over 300 hours to make this one-off piece. I could buy it for 26 thousand thalers. Or I could get a piece of birch wood, quite legally, for nothing, sit down with my gouges, chisels, elbow grease, and make one for myself. Since there is no way that I would have paid the asking price for the original, my copy has not denied the sculptor of any revenue. Since I have not taken the original object, I have not denied anybody else possession of the object.

Now, imagine some very expensive piece of software and some Malaysian fifteen year old. He doesn't have the money to buy a license for the software, so he makes a copy that he uses in order to learn how to use it. The software editor doesn't lose any revenue, since the kid in question could not possibly have afforded to pay. The copy that the kid makes and uses does not deprive anybody else of enjoying possession or use of the software.

Final example, just to prove a point. Imagine that I have just lost all my life's savings because I followed the advice of some affluent merchant banker (half-euphemism) and put all my money into shares in a company run by a bunch of corrupt, greedy, and/or incompetent executives (on enormous salaries and whose own savings are quite safe, thankyou very much). Could be Enron, WorldCom, Vivendi... So, I've got just enough money to live on, and I'm looking for a job, and I go to an interview on the train without buying a ticket. It's 9am, and the train is packed. I get in and sit down. Now, I'm in the wrong; my presence is depriving someone else of a place.

Now, I an not a lwayer, but the point is that for there to be "theft", at least one of two conditions must be met:

• some legitimate revenue or benefit must be denied,
• possession must be denied.

There are too many individuals and corporations taking a "holier than thou" attitude, claiming that "software piracy is theft" when they are just out to fill their pockets as full and as quickly as possible, and are simply jealous in the most petty way conceivable, that someone can benefit from their work without paying for it. But at the same time, these indivduals and corporations set the minimum possible contribution at a level that is so high that it excludes too many possible contributors.

The way to stop copyright infringement (what the BSA and others would like to term "software piracy") is not by shouting very loudly "SOFTWARE PIRACY IS THEFT". It is by making contribution possible and even convenient!

Because, you have to admit it, if there was a way to pay an affordable one thaler for a personal (educational, non-commercial, or home) license, how many would go ahead if to do so required three or four hours of getting certificates, filling in credit-card forms, setting up secure payment schemes...... What we need is a secure, standardised, open, easy to use system of micropaymentss/strong>.

Re:yes its ok

[Anonymous Coward]

I suppose you are right.
People like you have never had an original thought in your life.

Re:yes its ok

[Beliskner]

A minimum acceptable wage in India these days would be $100 a month, with $200 being more realistic. A Dell call centre I know pays $250/mo to entry level engineers. Dirt cheap by US standards, yes

A few years ago it used to be cheaper, I was using that metric. If you set up a call centre in the middle of Calcutta villages or other deprived areas it would be how much I stated, but these call centres are appearing in rich urban areas (by Indian standards) which also increases their prices. Of course these urban call centres don't have problems with armed bandits and land disputes unlike Calcutta suburb businesses.

Re:yes its ok

[Anonymous Coward]

i dont think you can even compare it. personally i would never even be on this website if i hadnt blagged a couple of things here and there along my way - i started using comps when i was 15 as well as the first guy - i didnt do anything near as creative as he does but i used it to write letters and i wont name names but we all know which famously expensive package we are talking about! (just as a sideline - what the hell kind of a student can afford the Student package ??- they have obviously never found out exactly how much student loans are over here!!)

more to the point though - the minister is saying that for the benfit of the country as a whole it is cheaper to let them use copies of programs in all schools than to just have the purchased packages in the expensive ones. personally i think it would be a bloody good idea if all the major software and hardware (lets not be exclusive here) were made to give a certain amount of £s worth of stuff to schools and educational institutions. they have nothing to lose and everything to gain by it - im talking about brand recognition here - so whats the big deal?? its not like they arent rich enough now is it??

on a personal note - never trust a man who names his company after his testicles.....i'll let you think about it

Re:yes its ok

[Anonymous Coward]

A car automatically has value. The raw materials put into it, and the physical labour. Software and other IP has an assigned value determined by the market and the vendor. They are only theoretically losing money if you illegaly obtain the software. A car dealer actually loses money for the car.

Re:yes its ok

[shelby289]

I know that this is off topic but "carrying a machine gun is legal in the USA" is not a true statement.
I am assuming that you mean fully automatic by "machine gun" and not semi-automatic as in your basic hunting rifle by Remington or Browining.
Yes it is legal if you have the necessary permits and follow the letter and intent of the law.
Which, BTW, are very hard to get since the Clinton administration. (Which I don't think is a bad thing)
I know I sound like a troll but it really makes me mad when people spout off about things like that.

BTW I agree with you on the software issue.

Re:yes its ok

[plague3106]

With your scenario, the car company spends all that engineering money, and gets paid how?

Thats exactly my point. The whole system would need to be revamped. A replicator would significatly alter our world, just as the internet and computers have done in the data realm.

If you make an unauthorized copy of a Ferrari, you are reducing the value of the cars owned by people who bought the legit ones.

Yes, but again such technology would require rethinking the system. Ferrari's would only be valued because people like how it performs / looks compared to other available models. But economically it would be valueless. And thats not such a bad thing. If we could clone cars, we could probably do it for just about anything, and economics would become mostly useless. So we would need other motivations to produce things. Thats what 'content' providers need to figure out. Of course its more difficult b/c only content is being effected in this way.

I do not think it is fair that some kid (who cannot afford the program) can use an unauthorized copy of the program to compete with me.

Sounds like you want to keep certain people down, and hope to rise to the top. Or perhaps you don't have much skill, and your only hope is that this kid who has talent will be kept from using it b/c he can't afford the tools. That doesn't sound like captialism to me. Remember it works both ways; companies compete with each other for our dollars, but we compete with each other for jobs. If you can't hack it b/c some kid that learned to do your trade better off of priated software, maybe you should go find another profession.

Re:yes its ok

[plague3106]

it costs nothing to replicate, but sometimes it costs millions of dollars to actually CREATE software such as adobe photoshop.

Yes, thats why we need a new model for this sort of thing. Why don't i just try to sell the light from the sun? That'd be rather foolish, wouldn't it?

Then lets see you "create" the movie the matrix at your house, or how about the new creed album?

I probably could, although it would take much longer. As far as the creed album goes...well there are thousands of bands, and alot of them are good. So i could give a shit if creed never made another album.

Cars are not data, and cannot be copied with almost no cost. So you obviously missed the point of my post.

Re:yes its ok

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

News flash: Legal counsel for the MPAA and RIAA informed congress that literally quadrillions of people were illegally infringing on Hollywood's copyrights in parallel universes. "Mr. Chairman, a large number of quantum physicists have theorized a nearly infinite number of parallel universes, many of which are similar to our own. If this is true, and many experts believe it so, then there are any number of people in these universes that are improperly using out intellectual property. Something must be done. The RIAA estimates that each year, $97 trillion trillion trillion dollars is lost to parallel universe mp3 trading. Need I remind you that that is $97 trillion trillion trillion dollars that could have been taxed?"

Re:yes its ok

[Pinky]

What if I just take a picture of the Stratus and drive that around then come and buy the Viper later?

Re:yes its ok

[glitch!]

Sounds like you want to keep certain people down, and hope to rise to the top. Or perhaps you don't have much skill, and your only hope is that this kid who has talent will be kept from using it b/c he can't afford the tools.

Not at all. I was simply creating a scenario to illustrate my point about scarcity being a possible element of value. In this case, the person buying the expensive sofware has paid for some exclusivity of sorts. I was explaining the matter from his point of view.

It is not good manners to take my hypothetical case and suggest that I am incompetent, or wish to oppress others.

Re:yes its ok

[Anonymous Coward]

thats adobe's problem. it still does not give you the right to steal. sorry.

Re:yes its ok

[plague3106]

It is not good manners to take my hypothetical case and suggest that I am incompetent, or wish to oppress others.

In this case, the person buying the expensive sofware has paid for some exclusivity of sorts.

I really don't know how to reconsile your statements. Paying for exlusivity? Sounds like a class system. It also seems to go against the American dream of starting with nothing and building a personal fortune.

If your hypothetical case, the poor would never be able to get your kind of (assumingly) well paying job because they could never afford the tools to do so (and pirating them should be wrong). That smacks of oppression. what else would you call it? I only see it as an attempt to keep poor people poor (by denying education) and the rich people rich.

I personally don't care if someone pirates something and learns a skill; i am confident enough in my abilities to know that i could compete with him for a job. It seems to me thats what you fear, and logically leads me to the conclusion that you think you are incompetent. Also from your view of this, i think its safe to say you are, because your parents were wealthy enough to buy you a complier or photoshop or whatever. Its been my experience that children of parents with wealth usually end up spoiled, lazy, and trying to protect the status quo by throwing money around.

Re:yes its ok

[kz45]

Yes, thats why we need a new model for this sort of thing. Why don't i just try to sell the light from the sun? That'd be rather foolish, wouldn't it?

the sun isn't a man-made object that took creativity to manufacture...

Cars are not data, and cannot be copied with almost no cost. So you obviously missed the point of my post.

im afraid you missed my point. Cars, like anything else man-made (including IP), are not something that just appear one day. If adobe wasn't around to create photoshop, you would have no photoshop to copy. (trhis is where value comes in).

If IP is so worthless, why have things like the GPL? It seems the FSF goes after people for violating it....

Yes, thats why we need a new model for this sort of thing

yes, we do. We need a way to keep money-grubbing fuck like you from stealing others' IP.

Re:yes its ok

[glitch!]

I really don't know how to reconsile your statements. Paying for exlusivity? Sounds like a class system. It also seems to go against the American dream of starting with nothing and building a personal fortune.

Exclusivity, rarity, scarcity are usually associtated with anything that is "expensive". I am pointing out WHAT IS, not WHAT SHOUD BE.

I personally don't care if someone pirates something and learns a skill; i am confident enough in my abilities to know that i could compete with him for a job. It seems to me thats what you fear, and logically leads me to the conclusion that you think you are incompetent.

Your logic is flawed.

i think its safe to say you are, because your parents were wealthy enough to buy you a complier or photoshop or whatever.

Bullshit. You have no idea how wrong you are, and I am not about to start explaining. Goodbye.

Re:yes its ok

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, how dare you call a shovel a shovel?

You should side with this numb fuck, and call a shovel an implement of murder.

Good for them!

[AnimalSnf]

I know my university (as well as many others in US) has to pay MS more than once for the OS (once as part of the purchase price and then a license for the site), but then again if it wasn't at a discount it take up the ENTIRE IT budget.

Re:Good for them!

[nbrazil]

Then the people doing the purchasing for your university are drooling morons who've never worked out a proper procurement program to track such expenditures.

Even Microsoft would dislike this since a PC double billed on the OS is going to lead to less purchases of MS software than two computers. What may look like an accidental bonus can be a loss later on.

Re:Good for them!

[_Sprocket_]

Actually... you're wrong on both accounts. Slashdot covered an educational licencing program from Microsoft a few months back. The basic layout was a department would count the number of computers and accept a flat fee per computer - no matter what the machine was already running (one theory was that most of them would probably be Windows or MacOS and the package included software for both). If an institution wanted educational licensing - THIS was the option.

In this case, you would potentially have machines that are being double-charged (or if they're runng, say, Linux - overcharged) at no risk of future sales. After all, the educational package included staples such as Office.

Re:Good for them!

[Anonymous Coward]

A double billed computer won't lead to less software sales.

It might indicate that you will have less software sales in the future, but that is only because it indicates less computers on the site.

2 OS license fees + 1 Office license fee > 1 OS License fee + 1 Office liecense fee

Since there really isn't a bonus or detriment by not meeting your estimated sales (unless you do shaddy bookwork), then not selling that second Office license doesn't hurt MS at all. They would never have sold it anyway, and have an extra fee for MS.

Piracy vs. Education?

[Corvaith]

If there is really no other software available to do what needs to be done, and your schools honestly do not have the money to pay for it... morally, I think it's okay for the schools to just copy it, legal or not. Knowledge trumps money.

A lot of software, though... you don't really need that commercial version, you can get something free, especially in educational institutions. If all you need is office software for writing papers, then get Linux and OpenOffice, don't pirate copies of Microsoft software.

Maybe this should be common sense, but it seems like common sense really isn't all that common, especially when it comes to intellectual property issues.

Re:Piracy vs. Education?

[Grax]

I still say if there's no killing, raping, or gathering of booty, that it isn't really piracy.

Re:Piracy vs. Education?

[Fredpro]

This is ridiculous. I don't believe 'piracy' is OK for *any* reason. To justify it like this is just crazy. If a company WANTED you to learn their product, then it would DONATE it to you. You have no right whatsoever to take software that doesn't belong to you and use it for your own purposes.

This is not to say I wouldn't pirate software for educational purposes if I had no other opportunity, but that most certainly does not make it 'ok'. I don't know where people get the notion that 'education' gives you a noble right to take what isn't yours. Sheesh.

Re:Piracy vs. Education?

[Lemmy Caution]

This is not to say I wouldn't pirate software for educational purposes if I had no other opportunity, but that most certainly does not make it 'ok'. I don't know where people get the notion that 'education' gives you a noble right to take what isn't yours. Sheesh.

So, you're saying you would do it, but that it's not OK. Wow, a thousand ethics philosophers are spinning in their graves, and many of them aren't even dead yet.

Re:Piracy vs. Education?

[sql*kitten]

If there is really no other software available to do what needs to be done, and your schools honestly do not have the money to pay for it... morally, I think it's okay for the schools to just copy it, legal or not. Knowledge trumps money.

Your argument simply doesn't hold water. Ultimately, a government regulates and subsidises education with taxpayer's money in order to increase the productivity of the economy. Yes, learning for the purpose of self-improvement is a worthy goal, but don't imagine for a second that is why the state school system exists as it does. It is an investment in the future cashflow of the nation.

My golden rule on software is, if you make money with it, you pay for it. I can overlook someone who has a copy of Photoshop that they use once or twice a year when they scan their vacation photos. But schools, along with investment banks and multinational corporations are literally the engines of the economy. They should pay for software like anyone else who is using it for economic gain.

A lot of software, though... you don't really need that commercial version, you can get something free, especially in educational institutions. If all you need is office software for writing papers, then get Linux and OpenOffice, don't pirate copies of Microsoft software.


There are free alternatives available. You mention writing papers; well they could use LaTeX. That they don't indicates that using commercial software is of tangible benefit to them - and that translates into economic advantage.

Also, this ruling would pretty much destroy the industry that develops software specifically for educational use.

Re:Piracy vs. Education?

[hawkfish]

don't imagine for a second that is why the state school system exists as it does. It is an investment in the future cashflow of the nation.

I beg your pardon? I was under the impression that the point of public education was that democracy is not viable without it. Now we are talking about Malaysia here, but your comment seems to be more general than that...

Re:Piracy vs. Education?

[sql*kitten]

I beg your pardon? I was under the impression that the point of public education was that democracy is not viable without it. Now we are talking about Malaysia here, but your comment seems to be more general than that...

Are you saying there is no public education under non-democratic regimes? The Soviet Empire, Cuba, China, even Saudi Arabia have public education. In those cases, the point of education is not the personal development of the "citizens", it is the reinforcement of the politically-enforced economic system.

Educational use only

[SeanTobin]

WARNING:

All files contained in this ftp are for EDUCATIONAL USE ONLY and must be deleted within 24 hours. No members of any law enforcement or governmental agency or anyone affiliated with stated agencies are allowed, and you must disconnect now.

Re:Educational use only

[Christianfreak]

Looks like it would work well. I mean its a great circumvision device. Anyone not using it for educational purposes could be suied under the DMCA!!!

Re:Educational use only

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure what's more funny. The original post, the fact that this guy took it seriously, or the fact that this guy is a self-proclaimed CHRISTIAN FREAK who's big on piracy. Don't Christian's have that whole "thou shalt not steal" thing going on? :-P

Re:Educational use only

[linzeal]

Didn't christians steal most of their ideas from other religions ?

Re:Educational use only

[Anonymous Coward]

Lol. If you refer to the pathetic excuse for christianity that is most major "christian" religions, then yes, the teachings they follow are not those of Christ at all, but pagan teachings and traditions of the land that make up these "other religions" you refer to.

Re:Educational use only

[susano_otter]

Which ones, and when?

Re:Educational use only

[Cruciform]

Who knows? They killed them all during the crusades :P

Re:Educational use only

[Anonymous Coward]

it's not the best example but it's the only one i can think of off the top of my head:

Christmas trees - they were borrowed from the Pagans to try to make Christianity more appealing to them so that more of them would convert

Re:Educational use only

[Anonymous Coward]

Stolen IP by Christianity:

Mithras birthday, 25th of December, early centuries of our calendar. Baby Jesus' birthday is unknown.

From the entire judeo-christian tree: the common 'child in the basket' myth. Moses? Intercultural

Some other AC already mentioned the Christmas tree. Needed to get these pagan German tribes in. The entire christmas bonanza is stolen from Nordic Mythology. This used to be the midwinter light feast.

Celtic Belthane feast became Halloween

Saints are direct substitutes for local gods. Again to make the pagans more comforable with this 'abstract' faith of Christianity

Playing with twigs and eggs for Easter? Ancient spring feast.

Better question: what is genuinely new in christianity?

Re:Educational use only

[Anonymous Coward]

Christmas comes from a pagan festival which happens during the winter. The christians of the time wanted a way to ease the pagans into christianity so they overlapped the birth of christ with the pagan festival. I would guess that there are other examples. Also the 40 days and 40 nights thing apprently comes from a mistranslation, well not precisly a mistranslation the word used in the original text can also mean many but this version of the word overshadowed by the word 40.

Strange things you learn on the telly.

Self-importance

[AirLace]

Why are they better than me? I'm a student and because I can't afford proprietary software licensing schemes, I use Linux. There are other less costly yet equal or superior systems out there. Just because you can't afford to buy something doesn't give you the right to steal it.

Re:Self-importance

[Anonymous Coward]

I won't go into whether it's right or wrong to pirate the software you want to learn/use. I do take issue with your statement of "There are other less costly yet equal or superior systems out there."

This is not always the case.

Take Photoshop for example. Want to be a graphic designer? There is no real competitor to Photoshop (and don't give me that PaintShop Pro/GIMP garbage, they don't compare and are NOT suited well towards print media/prepress). If you're going into graphic design then you're using Photoshop, Illustrator/Freehand, and Quark/InDesign, plain and simple.

Re:Self-importance

[acasto]

Just because they control the market share, dosn't give them the right to abuse it.

Re:Self-importance

[mythr]

It's not just the function of the software that matters. A lot of schools would use Open Source software, if it weren't for a little thing called mind share. Most of the companies out there are going to use Windows/Office, and the role of the educational system is just that: to educate.

If Little Jimmy learns how to use Star Office or AbiWord in school, how is that going to help him when he goes to work for a company that requires him to use MS Office? They serve the same purpose, but the differences are very important conceptually.

If all you need to do is print off an essay, then pay for Office. If you intend to learn or teach skills for the future workplace, you should not be held back by licensing issues.

Re:Self-importance

[Anonymous Coward]

Um HEH you have to go to school to learn Office? You really are a moron.

Re:Self-importance

[FatRatBastard]

So two wrongs do make a right! Fantastic.

Re:Self-importance

[acasto]

If you want to look at it blindly, sure! What it dose is balance it. There has to be a balance in everything. For every time there's censorship, someone must speak up. Every time there is opression, someone must make a stand. There is many people who think it's wrong now, but well wait till you are completely trapped by outrageous prices and contracts, then see what you think. Of course it always looks black & white when the issue dosn't affect you because your can either afford it all, or are making money from it!

Re:Self-importance

[Anonymous Coward]

You think you are a master of Office just because you know how to open a document in Word? Wouldntthinksobuddy...

Re:Self-importance

[SteelX]

Take Photoshop for example. Want to be a graphic designer? There is no real competitor to Photoshop (and don't give me that PaintShop Pro/GIMP garbage, they don't compare and are NOT suited well towards print media/prepress). If you're going into graphic design then you're using Photoshop, Illustrator/Freehand, and Quark/InDesign, plain and simple.

Good point. How about...

• Quicken - Gnucash doesn't cut it (yet).
• Adobe Acrobat - Ghostscript tools are not user-friendly enough.
• SmartDraw/Visio - OpenOffice.org Draw is ok, but I want something with lots of templates for software engineering, networking, etc.
• Macromedia Flash (the editor, whatever it's called) - any OSS equivalents out there?
• MS Office documents - we need something that reads those .doc files flawlessly, please!

If anyone knows of better free software alternatives out there for the above list, please post!

Re:Self-importance

[Hatter]

That's not education, that's training. There's a big difference there.

You don't think that someone that used AbiWord in school couldn't figure out Word? Sure there are large differences between the two, but there are many differences between each version of Office as well. People can adapt and learn nuances of software relatively quickly. Schools should be teaching concepts and let the students apply them to what they use in the workplace.

Re:Self-importance

[Anonymous Coward]

You are obviously using this issue to advance your pro Linux agenda. Your statement is transparent, and winey.

Re:Self-importance

[HaggiZ]

While I dont condone this idea as I personally busted my ass through high-school to pay for legal versions of all my software, I think your view is a little narrow minded and completely unrealistic.

Seriously, what employer is going to offer a job requesting COM, VB, and Photoshop experience and go... well, you've used GIMP and can apparently do a bit of cgi/perl... heck lets just hire you anyways!

Re:Self-importance

[Chicks_Hate_Me]

You forgot Dreamweaver. An office app that really doesn't have any clear alternatives in the Free Software race. Sure you can use vi, but it's still not the same. I love Dreamweaver, and most web designers can agree that it is the best at what it does.

Re:Self-importance

[SteelX]

Oh yes, Dreamweaver. Yeah I left it out because I don't use it. Maybe we should compile a whole list of stuff that doesn't have OSS equivalents.

Re:Self-importance

[kmweber]

It doesn't matter what the effects of a certain action (or lack of action) are (or are not). Right is right, wrong is wrong. Stealing is wrong. The OP is aware of this, and made the moral choice.

Re:Self-importance

[acasto]

Who decides what is right and what is wrong? So given the idea - 'stealing is wrong' - who decides what is stealing? It looks that in this situation, the terms and laws are written for and also bent for those whom it benefits the most, the large corporations. The law went from potecting the producer and the public, to protecting the producer and screwing the public.

Re:Self-importance

[asavage]

...There are other less costly yet equal or superior systems out there. Just because you can't afford to buy something doesn't give you the right to steal it.

It depend on the software. I have to use MATLAB for some projects for school. I could use in the labs but I would much rather code at home. If I only use it for school and delete when the semester is over I have no problem downloading a cracked copy on KaZaA lite.

Re:Self-importance

[ceejayoz]

AutoCAD is another good example.

Re:Self-importance

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe we should compile a whole list of stuff that doesn't have OSS equivalents.
Call it 'The TODO list'.

Re:Self-importance

[0xdeadbeef]

Just because you can't afford to buy something doesn't give you the right to steal it.

Actually, when you can rewrite the laws, it does.

That's the great thing about a legal fiction like copyright. When it is no longer useful, *poof* it disappears.

Re:Self-importance

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Just because you can't afford to buy something doesn't give you the right to steal it."

Nobody's saying "I'm poor so I have the right to steal it." What people are saying is "I need to know how to use these things in order to succeed in life, but there's no outlet to let me do it affordably."

I'm a Lightwave animator. When I started using it, it cost $2,500. You cannot get a job using Lightwave unless you know how to use Lightwave. Here's the thing though, LW's not about pushing buttons, it's about being an artist who understands his/her medium. School can teach me how to cut clay, but it cannot teach me to be a scupltor.

The simple fact of the matter is that in order to use any 3D App, you have to be intimately familiar with it. Without a job, there's no way I can pay $2,500 to buy the software. (Plus that's really risky, what if you're better off with Maya?)

The resort is to 'acquire' the software. Is it right? No, it's piracy. Should Newtek do something about it if they know you have it? Yes they should, otherwise the floodgates open to people being able to legitimatley use LW without paying for it. Should Newtek look the other way? Oh absolutely.

3D Apps are unusual software because you can make a good living knowing how to use it. I learned how to use Lightwave, and now I have a job where I use it extensively. Not only has my company purchased a full license plus 2 upgrades, but now I have my own copy I paid full price for. My 'piracy' 6 years ago earned Newtek 2 full licenses, 2 upgrade licenses, and repeat business from me in the future.

One day, the licensing will be figured out such that it's okay to use unauthorized copies of software for educational use. Until it is, yes it is wrong. But there's a difference between being legally wrong and being ethically wrong. Newtek profited off me being legally wrong, but ethically right.

Re:Self-importance

[AirLace]

This has been the most compelling argument against my post. You say that you made the decision to break the law for your own career and monetary gain, and I understand why you made your decision though I don't necessarily respect it.

Personally, I'd rather not take that risk. Life's too short -- software authors have the right to demand whatever sum they want for their product, and capitalism should ensure that I can vote with my wallet. And I do exactly that: I get everything I need done with the free software I have.

On the other hand, I think the attitude that pirating software isn't stealing is a bit silly. It reminds me of Dr. Shipman, a UK serial killer who was recently imprisoned for dozens of life sentences. He killed only elderly people; does the fact that these elderly people were going to die in a few years anyway matter? No. He's still a murderer. And you're still a criminal.

Re:Self-importance

[zhensel]

I'm currently working on a couple of projects. One being a newsletter for a political group I work for and the other being a handbook for my cooperative house. Does anyone know of a free/cheap alternative to Quark or Pagemaker?

Also, I might add on your MS Office rant. I think that with Microsoft potentially pulling out of Mac support, you might see a more open Office format very soon. There will still be certain proprietary bits, but more and more it seems Office users are not using the new wiz-bang features incorporated into the new Office releases. I foresee Microsoft being pressured from all ends to open their Office formats once it is a Windows only product. It's a lot easier for Apple to drum up PR in this respect than it is for the open source community. Hopefully the Apple/Sun juggernaut that's forming in the Office field will work towards the common good.

Either way we're in for better .doc support if Microsoft stops developing Office X - Apple has to support it somehow, their alternative will be Star Office and changes to Star Office benefit Open Office as well.

Re:Self-importance

[Anonymous Coward]

You see my dear child. This is how the world works.

Despite you are rich or poor, softwares will still be developed, and the richies will buy them to learn about them and help the developers financially. In the meantime, the rest will use pirated ones and learn about them. Eventually, both everyone of these will get good jobs and unite together to develop better softwares. And the richies will buy them and the cycle continues.

See the equilibrium?

Good.

So say thank you to the concept of "Pirated" softwares.

Re:Self-importance

[Anonvmous Coward]

Well I hope you take one thing away from my post: I didn't deny it was wrong.

I can understand you not respecting my decision. I hope you can at least see that I made the most of my situation. Both Newtek and I ultimately benefitted from it, but that didn't happen without LOTS of work on my end. I had to impress my employer in order to get hired. I had to prove to them that it was worth spending $2,500 for me to get the software. I had to demonstrate to them that the upgrades were worth the $500 price tag each time around.

Do all people who get unauthorized software go that far? I doubt it. As I said, I'm not denying it's wrong.

Cheers.

Re:Self-importance

[Hewligan]

Yeah, Scribus. It's not Quark yet, but for those sorts of project it should do just fine.

Re:Self-importance

[FatRatBastard]

Of course it always looks black & white when the issue dosn't affect you because your can either afford it all, or are making money from it!

Well, I can't afford a Porsche, so I guess its ok to go steal it.

Sure there are cheaper cars that get the job done, but that Porsche is soooooo sexy.

Re:Self-importance

[acasto]

Yeah, that really makes sense. If you take a Porsche, just like a copy of Office, nobody will ever knotice. Great comparison!!!

Re:Self-importance

[FatRatBastard]

So theft is ok if you don't get caught. Maybe I should burn the Porsche dealership down after I steal it, you know, cover up the crime.

Re:Self-importance

[acasto]

Again, is it theft? Look it up, then let us know if you should burn down the Porsche dealership!

Re:Self-importance

[FatRatBastard]

Is what theft? Not paying for the license or the Porsche?

But lets look at the situation another way. What if Malaysia decided to install Linux and GNU software on a bunch of machines, but they made critical changes to the software (for example, such that it would only run on machines with a secure rom installed). They then sold it (and the tweaked hardware), but didn't release the changes in the source? Thier excuse? "We're a poor country, we don't have a lot of $$$ to throw around so we leveraged all the good work done on Linux and the GNU toolkit. We tweaked it so we could sell it (cheaply, with the modded hardware) and bring in a nice revenue stream for our gov't treasury.

Would that violation of a licence agreement be ok?

Re:Self-importance

[acasto]

What you describe would solely be for a financial gain, not to achieve knowledge from lack of. Please try again!

Re:Self-importance

[FatRatBastard]

So you're saying theft (or license violation) is perfectly ok if its simply for learning?

So I should be able to download all of my college textbooks of the net? I should be able to go to any college class and not pay tuition, since its in the name of education? What if in my previous statement all the money gathered thru the sale of the computers went to funding schools? Would it be okay then?

So two wrongs make a right as long as nothing physical is taken, and its for educational reasons.

Re:Self-importance

[FatRatBastard]

Of course, the point of all of this is what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

If you don't like MS (or, more importantly can't afford them) don't use thier software. Its that simple. There *are* alternatives (and ones that are substancially cheaper). Simply disregarding IP laws altogether simply because you don't like the price MS are charging opens you up to some nasty reciprication. If its morally ok for you to disregard MS's license and use their software, then its morally ok for MS to diregard the GPL and fold any source code they feel like into their product without releasing that source to the public.

You think MS is a bum deal, then don't buy it (or license it). To me, morally there's no difference saying "hey, their software is too expensive to buy so I'm just going to copy it" than me saying "I think Porsches are too expensive, so I'm just going to steal one."

Re:Self-importance

[acasto]

You are not making any sense. You are trying to justify your stance by entangling the whole situation into one package. Your Porsche example is idiotically rediculous, bearing absolutely nothing in common with software piracy. Again, if you would think things out before blabbing, if MS disregared the GPL, that would only be for financial benefit. That would be the same as if we copied a bunch of win2k disks and sold them. It would be great if it was as easy as just using an alternative like Linux or Star Office. I know this will be hard to understand... but .... most of the world and potential jobs will use... guess what... proprietary software!!! Using the pirated software for education when you can't afford it, is not always because your too cheap. Like it or not, many jobs require experience on programs that you can't get for free.

Re:Self-importance

[Anonymous Coward]

Alas, when installing ColdFusion MX - a web application server that costs a whole lot of money, you are granted the right to use it for development purposes for free. After the evaluation has expired it limits itself to the local host or the first ip address to access the app.

Mayhap more companies should come up with the a similar model?

I've looked at sound editing programs, all in the range of $1000 USD. With all eval versions being seriously crippled and the programs highly complex, there's no way for me to evaluate the one I want without resorting to finding some cracked version off Kazaa. Going into a store and have some pesky salesperson hanging over your shoulder just doesn't cut it...

Re:Self-importance

[FatRatBastard]

You are not making any sense.

Sure I am. I'm saying that breaking the law is breaking the law, regardless of whether you think its a good idea or not.

You are trying to justify your stance by entangling the whole situation into one package. Your Porsche example is idiotically rediculous, bearing absolutely nothing in common with software piracy.

Just because a Porsche is a physical item that has incremental material cost and software doesn't does not mean there's any difference. A Porsche doesn't design or assemble itself. Software doesn't write itself. In both cases you are breaking the law, which is all find and dandy, I just don't agree with it.

Again, if you would think things out before blabbing, if MS disregared the GPL, that would only be for financial benefit

So learining doesn't have a financial benefit? Isn't that the reason we get an education, so we can do something with our lives? Get a better job? GET PAID?

Learning to be a doctor doesn't come cheap. I couldn't afford to do it (and have no urge to go into hock to pay for it). Should I be able to show up to Harvard Med school and say "howdy doc, I'm here for my education, which I'm not going to pay for?" I mean, its not like they're going to lose any money if I sit in on classes. Just like software, there's no incremental cost between teaching one person or 100, therefor I'm justified in expecting my free education.

I know this will be hard to understand...

Apparently, because you're making a right mess of your arguement...

but .... most of the world and potential jobs will use... guess what... proprietary software!!!

And most of the people who will cure you at a hosptial is ... guess what ... a doctor. So are you saying I should be able to go to medical school for free?

Like it or not, many jobs require experience on programs that you can't get for free.

So, pay for them.

Re:Self-importance

[acasto]

Paying for them at reasonable prices is different than paying for them at rediculous prices when the companies twist the consumers arm.

So, pay for them.

Yeah, that's easy to say to everyone, ain't it? The reason you think I made a mess of my argument is simply becuase you lack the insight to understand. You can not compare it to what you are. You are comparing it to tangible items, that cost tangible money per item. You medical school analogy is also rediculous, you could read through books, and even look over class notes without paying for them. You simply twist analogies into your own little reasons. Don't you have anything else?

Re:Self-importance

[FatRatBastard]

The reason you think I made a mess of my argument is simply becuase you lack the insight to understand.

Oh, preach on swami, the all-seeing one.

You can not compare it to what you are.

Er, what? (I figure you're not a native english speaker so something got lost in the translation. If you are an english speaker though, you're about as sharp as a sack of wet mice)

You are comparing it to tangible items, that cost tangible money per item.

The Porsche yes, the education no, the GPL example no. You're one for three (which isn't a bad average if you're a baseball player... unfortunatly this isn't baseball).

You medical school analogy is also rediculous, you could read through books, and even look over class notes without paying for them.

Let's review what you're arguing:

It is ok to pirate software (i.e. use the software without abiding by the licensing agreement). After I threw up the GPL example you further narrowed that argument down by saying it was ok *as long as it was not for financial gain*. So lets go thru this argument nice and slow so you can follow along.

- You say software has no incremental cost
- I say teaching also has no incremental cost

- You say piracy is ok since you're not "costing" the software producer any $$$ (since the incremental cost is 0)
- I say sitting in on Harvard Medical School class for free is ok (since the incremetal cost of teaching is 0)

- You say "You medical school analogy is also rediculous, you could read through books, and even look over class notes without paying for them"
- I say "You can get a computer education without using MS software"

but

- You say "most of the world and potential jobs will use... guess what... proprietary software!!! Using the pirated software for education when you can't afford it, is not always because your too cheap. Like it or not, many jobs require experience on programs that you can't get for free."
- I say "hey, just looking at books and reading class notes will not get you a medical license"

So, if its ok to pirate MS software because
a) the incremental cost is 0
b) its not being used for financial gain
c) you can't subsitute it with Linux/*BSD/MacOS because the rest of the world uses MS products

then the same logic says it should be ok for me to get a free medical education at Harvard because
a) the incremental cost is 0
b) its not being used for financial gain (I just want to help people, dammit)
c) you can't substitute a proper medical degree with reading books and class notes.

You simply twist analogies into your own little reasons.

No, its called having logic and being consistent. You might want to look into it.

Re:Self-importance

[Bongo]

On the other hand, I think the attitude that pirating software isn't stealing is a bit silly. It reminds me of Dr. Shipman, a UK serial killer who was recently imprisoned for dozens of life sentences. He killed only elderly people; does the fact that these elderly people were going to die in a few years anyway matter? No. He's still a murderer. And you're still a criminal.

And why not mention the Nazis while you're at it... oh, but, um, what they were doing was "legal" in their country.

Anyway, yes, anyone who breaks any law is a criminal. So did anyone here go over the speed limit today? What about ever? Guess what, you're a criminal. It's like those trick questions on psychology tests... "Did you ever steal?" (the "correct" answer is "yes", because everybody has stolen something, even if it was just once; you went home from work with a pencil in your pocket.

So sure, everyone is a criminal; technically.

Now what about practically? Here I don't think the comparison to "Dr." Shipman is of any use. Here I think it's up to society to make the laws, and set the standards, which requires some degree of agreement.

And also from the practical standpoint, it's possible to do something which does not seem to be wrong, that doesn't feel like it's wrong, but someone still ends up in jail *cough* russian programmers *cough*.

Now I'm not saying that, hey, all laws are relative, there's no real right and wrong, so just do as you please. No, there are clear rights and clear wrongs. And in-between, there's the gray areas.

I think software copying falls somewhat in this gray area (although not completely), and particularly here, with a country deciding to set a policy that allows some degree of copying.

So, no, please don't mention the hundreds of dead grannies. Were they still alive, they may be insulted by the comparison.

But still, I gather from your post, that what you're seeking to value is integrity. That somehow, making copies of commercial software goes against a person's sense of integrity, and I think I agree with that. It's like keeping the house tidy or returning lost property; you just feel better about yourself. It's like, how would a person feel if they'd been pirating some company's software, and then read in the paper that the company had gone out of business from lack of sales, and laid off hundreds of people? (if you've spent your life just basically trying to survive and believe the world is a jungle, then don't bother answering)

But I really do hope that some clearer public agreement / law is achieved to sort our all this "piracy" stuff... because at the moment anyone with a CD burner is a "criminal", which just makes a mockery of the law and reduces people's respect for the law generally.

Re:Self-importance

[mpe]

If Little Jimmy learns how to use Star Office or AbiWord in school, how is that going to help him when he goes to work for a company that requires him to use MS Office?

This argument applies equally if Little Jimmy's employer uses a newer (even an older) version of MS Office compared with the school's version.
Fundermentally schools are ment to be about education i.e. "how to use a word processor"; rather than training i.e. "how to user this specific version of that specific word processor with these options installed."

They serve the same purpose, but the differences are very important conceptually.

No-one makes this kind of fuss about driving cars, even though car controls differ between models. Nor does any0one make this kind of fuss about telephone systems. Even though the user interface to the clever features of PBXen varies widely between systems.

Re:Self-importance

[donky]

Ignoring your generalisations and considering the point - use of copyrighted goods not necessarily being illegal when done for solely educational purposes, this isn't exactly something new. At least not in my country. You're allowed to reproduce and use literature for the purposes of learning - which is why the photocopiers in my university library always had queues of people lined up to use them. To extend this to software is entirely reasonable.

blah blah blah insert lame generalisations blah I use linux blah insert lame generalisations blah blah blah insert corporate rhetoric

Pro lunix troll = recipe for upward moderation.

Re:Self-importance

[Anonymous Coward]

Not all countries believe in consumer Capitalism. A majority of the world is still far more socialist than we give credit for.

Oh no, such a shame that other countries place education above corporate profits! I'll tell all of you "moralites" that a majority of college art majors have a copy of Photoshop and Illustrator. Either from a friend, or from Hotline, etc. GIMP sucks ass... it's completely unintuitive and I don't remember the last time I saw a graphics design major installed Linux on their machine.

Re:Self-importance

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because you can't afford to buy something doesn't give you the right to steal it.
Actually, it does! Some times the only moral choice is to break the law. In fact, history is made form examples then people took things they were not suppose to have by law. It is called revolution (American revolution included). The right thing for Malaysian government would be to make it the law and stop all the nonsense about "is it stealing?" but I don't think they are ready for it. It is much easier just to look the other way.

Re:Self-importance

[Anonymous Coward]

Please stop the mantra of comparing unauthorized duplication of immaterial things with theft.

theft; the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it

When you copy a CD or download a bit stream the rightful owner still has the ability to use his/her/it's (in the case of a company) bit stream.
Also there is nothing such as "lost sale". Prove one case of lost sale please... I don't count statements such as "I was going to buy product A, but circumstance B changed my mind and I got product [AC] instead", as a proof. In that case I could say "I intended to get everything in the world but changed my mind when I saw a bottle of brandy and got that instead, thus pirating the entire world".

Interesting

[Henry V .009]

Students have no money to buy stuff. However, if they get a good education, they get a lot of money to buy the things that they like. Hmmm...

I'm sorry for that last comment, I had a moment of temporary insanity. Bad Malaysia. Bad. We here in the U.S. should extend our copyright terms another 90 years in retalitation!

Re:Interesting

[lpret]

I would say that your observation that students who pirate stuff now will have money later to buy all the software they now "need" because they are so used to them. I lived in the Philippines for 12 years, which is similar to Malaysia in terms of education, and pirating is rampant; however, these kids who live on a few hundred dollars a year now have skills that will make them invaluable in the workplace. Perhaps this can be seen as a tool to help the poor be competitive with the rich (Good ol' Robin Hood).

benefits?

[speedfreak_5]

Well, if the companies allow their software to be distributed freely for educational purposes, then more people would be inclined to use (and hopefully pay for) the software that they learned on.

The whole situation

[acasto]

I think it is clear, that the entire situation is just screwed up. It may be legally stealing to use pirated software, but then on the other hand, the copyright and patents laws have done went crazy. If nobody was to use pirated software, then the balance would completely be tipped in favor of the big corporations. Consumers would be stomped on, as they are already being, and they would not get any better of a product.

My personal view is, is that you should do all that is needed to educate one's self. If economics allow for you to just go out and buy everything, great. But if someone can not afford things like certain software applications, then I think it's terrible that economics would limit the potential of someones learning.

Perhaps more sympathy could be felt for the large software companies, if more sympathy was felt for their consumers. But I think everyone can agree that we are no more than numbers on a piece of paper to them. Piracy has a lot to do with respect. All this time companies and musicians have been complaining about this, yet they show little respect towards the people that put that money in their pockets.

Re:The whole situation

[Anonymous Coward]

exactly, why would i pay msft 200 bucks for xp when i can get Linux free, or buy it for much much much cheaper, and it does all that i need for a OS & apps...

Possibly!

[Kwikymart]

What I would like to see is more "student" pricing on software packages that are very expensive (CAD, 3D stuff etc). Software makers could be making money by doing this, but they aren't and are left with people willing to buy it but not at that price. If the guidlines are strict (educational instutues only or at home for students w/ proof of student status) they will not lose any money from people trying to cheat the system. If they did this, then they probably wouldn't have to turn to piracy for many of the schools in Malaysia. In a world such as ours, they have to keep up or otherwise be caught in the early 20th century like Afghanistan. If piracy is the only means of this, sure, I think the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks.

Re:Possibly!

[Anonymous Coward]

they have to keep up or otherwise be caught in the early 20th century like Afghanistan.

Excuse me but I think you've tacked at least 2, maybe even 3 or 4 centuries on there. Try again.

Re:Possibly!

[Anonymous Coward]

don't you mean decades? Try again.

Re:Possibly!

[Anonymous Coward]

That's odd. 2% of list seems like a pretty good deal to me. What kind of CAD stuff are you using that they don't give ridiculous prices for students? I work in the CAD industry and I happen to know as fact that both Autodesk and Bentley, the only 2 real competitors in the general CAD market, give something like a 98% discount. Those packages are priced at $4000-$5000 US, and educational prices are usually between $99 and $200. What more do you want?

Re:Possibly!

[Erwos]

You're proposing what's really a basic economic principle for business: charge people what they can afford at maximum for a product. Many companies (MS and RedHat are two that come to mind) do this, and are succeeding pretty well. They combine that with bundling, but it's essentially the same.

Microsoft has student discounts. They've got "home" and "professional" versions of their OS's. They make their money by milking you as much as they can - they've just understood that a sale of $100 to a person that can afford $100 and a sale of $200 to a person who can afford $200 makes more sense than just selling it at $200 and crossing their fingers.

RedHat is similar. They let you buy normal or Advanced Server - but also give you the option of downloading ISOs.

The simple answer is to negotiate with companies and get student discounts going. You charge students what they can afford, everyone wins. In MS's case, this is usually a sizable discount (Visual Studio's price is quite good, for example), and RedHat lets you download whatever you want (except AS) for free.

-Erwos

Re:Possibly!

[lpret]

For a while in Asia there was what was called the Asian Edition of different programs. It was basically half-price of what the normal price was. However, they found out that those who were willing to pay for legal copies were willing to pay the full price, and those who bought pirated didn't care, so they kept paying the 2 bucks for Photoshop :) Needless to say, the Asian Edition was dumped pretty quickly. Also, another point I'd like to make is the difference in living costs. In the Philippines, where I have lived quite a few years, a family of 6 could live frugally on a thousand bucks a year. That is the cost of some of the software we're speaking of! The budget of the school districts also reflect this difference in living costs, and I'm sure they can't afford the retail value of thirty windoze distros, nor could they support a linux system simply because it is unknown. If you want to preach about people using more linux, give third world countries the training for this! This is what excites me about Peru's possible requirement of open source software, as this would no doubt create a huge work force competent in these fields. Anyways..

Re:Possibly!

[Anonymous Coward]

In Australia we have student discounts, a few months back, I paid for 2 copies of WindowsXP professinal at 75% off the normal retail price.

And what about lpert said, I have a burnt fully working copy of windowsXP, I installed it, liked it, and a week later I went out and paid for it using the student discounts.

And exactly what are they learning here?

[s4ltyd0g]

That stealing is ok if the cause is deemed just?

Re:And exactly what are they learning here?

[acasto]

Because something is legally right, does that always make it morally right also.

I can think of many instances in history where society moved forward by going against what was dictated. Knowledge is the one thing that will allow us to progress the most as humans. We must not limit ourselves. Usually throughout history it is governments that control the knowledge and hold the power. In the world today, it is large corporations, whom control and squeeze the market, and the consumers, for their own good.

Re:And exactly what are they learning here?

[Anonymous Coward]

Stealing IS ok if the cause is deemed just.

Re:And exactly what are they learning here?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, and polygamy was deemed to be ok in Utah

So...it is alright to pirate software in Utah

Re:And exactly what are they learning here?

[s4ltyd0g]

These are good points, but in how many instances has the governement (as is the case here) risen up and done something like this for the people?

No,this is a government who condons stealing of copyrighted works simply because they have no intention of ever buying licenced copies.

Have they abolished copyright laws in Malaysia? No.

I see little difference moral, or otherwise between this and the government saying well it's ok for us to rob banks because we're strapped for cash.

Re:And exactly what are they learning here?

[acasto]

That is true, if the government is doing it because they just don't want to pay then that is wrong. Because a government is basically a business now days. However, I am looking at it from a educational vs. non-educational point of view. I'm simply saying, I don't think you should let something like a copyright prevent you from learning if it comes down to it.

Re:And exactly what are they learning here?

[DEBEDb]

Ok, first, it's not stealing, it's copyright violation. Now, if the copyright law in Malaysia is changed so that this is NOT a copyright violation, what exactly is illegal here? :)

Re:And exactly what are they learning here?

[Catbeller]

Are you aware that the Ukraine was put under embargo by the U.S. this year (or late last) for a time? It was lifted when they complied with U.S. demands to make their copyright laws equivalent to ours.

Not very funny. If Malaysia acts up and tries to be an independent nation, Bush et Congress will courteously perform corporate bidding and punish Malaysia until it grovels.

It sort of reminds me of a case a few years ago when the U.S. actually pressured... Sweden was it?... to change its constitution in order to seal public records that contained the holy writings of L. Ron Hubbard. Seems their constitution required court records (and evidence) to be publicly available, and the Xenu story was introduced as evidence. The Boys From Hubbard took shifts keeping the material checked out at the library until the U.S. Guvmint pressured a constitutional change... for copyright or trade secret exemptions to the law, I think.

The U.S. has no compunctions about meddling with the world's laws if we don't like them. It's cool to be the New Evil Empire. All Hail!

Re:And exactly what are they learning here?

[DEBEDb]

Well, you're right, but I am just arguing
against the value judgment that it's "stealing".
Just because US copyright laws are set up in a certain way, doesn't mean it's inherent.

One may argue the same for property rights, but
tangible property rights have a much longer tradition.

Re:And exactly what are they learning here?

[plague3106]

Indeed, it is. A man stealing to feed his family and doesn't have another way to do it is not wrong.

Let's follow the logic, shall we?

[Bonker]

Company A is a relatively new, but wealthy graphical effects company that does effects for commercials, promotional vidoes, and traning multimedia. They need graphic artists capable of using a new modelling and animation tool we'll call Tool B.

Tool B costs 1500 dollars and has a complex registration system that involves connecting to a registration server. (Yes, high-end tools do this.) University graphical art programs would rather use Tool C which costs $150 and a 'normal' registration system so that they can install it on more than one workstation. (1st instance of 'piracy)

Artist D knows 3d animation and modelling concepts. He's even spent a few hundred dollars on software. He is capable of doing the job for Company A, but doesn't know the tool. There is no way he can possibly afford to buy Tool B, but he *can* download it and the crack for its registration system of alt.binaries.3dtools.yadda.yadda... (2nd Instance of Piracy)

After Artist D demonstrates his mad graphic skilzz in his interview, Company A hires Artist D, justifying licensing of a new copy of Tool B at $1500 a pop. Despite 2 instances of piracy, the makers of Tool B have gotten their money and have a user who is using their tools in the industry.

The bottom line here is that because Tool B was used in an educational sense, it makes more money than it would if it weren't being used.

There are many high-end graphical tools that you can very safely plug into the 'Tool B' slot, like 3DSMax, Maya, Lightwave, and Even Photoshop/Illustrator. Despite the fact that these high-dollar tools are the most pirated pieces of software out there with the exception of games, the companies that make them are still raking in the dough. They scream and cry about 'lost sales', but they know as well as we do that if there wasn't at least some piracy of their products, they wouldn't have nearly so many business users.

Re:Let's follow the logic, shall we?

[Anonymous Coward]

yes but thats not in the best interests of the toolmaker. what is then toolmaker building tool B went bankrupt before company A hired artist D ? what if they wouldnt have had artist D bought the tool before going for the interview ?
where do you draw the line ? is it ok to break the law and steal someones work if you just want to learn how to use it ? should be encourage students to pirate software and then somehow try and train them to stop pirating when they use it commercially ?

Re:Let's follow the logic, shall we?

[RussGarrett]

Alias|Wavefront have already picked up on this with Maya - they've produced Maya Personal Learning Edition, which is free, and provides all the features of Maya Complete, but it saves to it's own format and has render resolution restricted (I think).

Which is a good thing, because Maya is the most painfully hard-to-use program I have ever encountered, although the results it gives are really stunning.

Re:Let's follow the logic, shall we?

[Anonymous Coward]

I sympathize with piracy. If I couldn't "borrow" VS.NET, Photoshop, SQL 2000, etc, I would be in even worse shape than I am now.

Companies ONLY want experience, and I ONLY have a degree. Since they won't hire me (even entry level, as there are no jobs) to get experience, I have to get it on my own (and lie a little about where I got said experience). Since I am unemployed, I cannot afford the cost of software. Without the software, I can't get a job. I care more about my own livelihood and my family's that someone else's profit problems.

Re:Let's follow the logic, shall we?

[The_Guv'na]

...has a complex registration system that involves connecting to a registration server. (Yes, high-end tools do this.)

Yeah, MSNBC was right, the Linux desktop is dying. I always knew Windows was the real high-end operating system!

Ali

Re:Let's follow the logic, shall we?

[Bonker]

I was not aware that Alias had done this. If they have, bully for them. They've already done a good job of making Maya a defacto standard. By putting out 'anti-piracy' copies of their software like this, they're helping to reduce the numbers of people who download regular versions as well as making sure that more people know how to use their software in a business setting.

Re:Let's follow the logic, shall we?

[dboyles]

I understand your logic, and I see how the example you gave could be beneficial for all involved. But it sounds suspiciously like the arguments that are commonly made for trading copyrighted music. Yes, I'm sure there are many instances where somebody has downloaded a copy of So-and-so's latest single, decided that they liked it, and bought the CD that they otherwise would not have bought. Everybody is happy, and there was much rejoicing.

The problem is, the copyright holder (of either the software or the music, whatever the case may be) doesn't allow such "trials" to take place. The way I see it, there are two reasons for this:

1. The company realizes that there may be some benefit to them by allowing the piracy to go on (such as the case mentioned above), but they feel that the costs outweigh the benefits. They may or may not be right.

2. The company (incorrectly) does not see any benefit that can come to them through piracy. This lack of information may happen to be good for them (costs > benefits) or bad for them (benefits > costs).

The issue that I have, in either of the two cases, is that we as (potential) consumers have no right to make this decision for the company. Even if we violate copyright with the best intentions ("If I like this copy of Photoshop, I'll buy 50 licenses for my company."), we have still overstepped our rights. If a company is smart, they have invested a lot of energy into determining the price for their product, including educational licensing prices. I have to believe that Microsoft knows what is best for the company better than I do.

Re:Let's follow the logic, shall we?

[mckayc]

Likeliless of Farfetched Story E ever happening: 0.

Re:Let's follow the logic, shall we?

[northstarlarry]

There's a lot more to being a graphic designer than owning, or even knowing how to use, Photoshop/Illustrator. Most people go to school for it. So while they're in school, they can use the school's computer labs, and maybe get some money from Mom and Dad and Grandma and Grandpa to buy a computer of their own with some professional programs. There are educational discounts for students, too.

When they graduate, most graphic design students have already done an internship, because 4-year degree programs usually require it. They're well on their way to getting a decent design job, which will also have Photoshop available for their use. After a year or two, if they don't already have it at home, they'll almost certainly be able to afford the latest version.

If you're not a graphic designer or a professional photographer or some other PROFESSIONAL, you really don't have any reason to be using PROFESSIONAL programs. If you want them, buy them.

The point is, if you need the software to make your living, you'll get it. If you don't need it, don't whine about how it should cost less or be okay to pirate because "the interface in XXX isn't as good as ProXXX." Go buy an older version on eBay and then upgrade with your Christmas bonus money.

Finally, if Artist D knows the concepts behind, and is capable of doing, the job that Company A needs him to do, and fits with them well except for not having used the specific tool that they are using, they'd be crazy not to hire him and give him some money to take a weekend training class on Tool B. Any manager worth a spit knows that you can train skills, but not concepts or attitudes.

P.S. The state school that I went to didn't seem to have any trouble buying new computers and licenses when they were needed. . .actually, about every three months.

Re:Let's follow the logic, shall we?

[kmweber]

I care more about my own livelihood and my family's that someone else's profit problems.

Too bad. NO ONE has a right to a living at someone else's expense, including you and your family.

Re:Let's follow the logic, shall we?

[geekee]

Whether or not your assertion is true, it's up to the company making the software whether it's worth it to give away software for educational purposes, even if they can make more money overall by giving it away. It's not up to some arbitrary government to decide to ignore software piracy in education, for "the public good", especially if the companies making the software don't reside in the country in question.

Re:Let's follow the logic, shall we?

[geekee]

Although I don't think people should pirate software, I don't see p2p sharing of songs as a copyright violation, regardless of what the RIAA says. Since the RIAA pays to play this music on the radio, it seems to me they have effectively given up their copyright on the airplayed music, after which it is public domain. This doesn't include all the tracks on a CD, however, just the ones that get airplay. If you want the rest, you should have to buy the CD.

Re:Let's follow the logic, shall we?

[ceejayoz]

So, for my digital pictures I should manipulate them in, say, MSPaint instead of Photoshop? Sorry, but "professionals" aren't the only ones who want or have a need for good programs.

Re:Let's follow the logic, shall we?

[Anonymous Coward]

I say too bad to you sir and continue to fight my way into a dying industry. If the world used open source, we wouldn't be funding those fat cats who insist upon taking $400 million loans from their company (and never pay them back) combined with millions in salaries and benefits, bankrupt them, aid in ruining the economy, and help prevent me from getting a job.

The way I see it, it's us against them.

Re:Let's follow the logic, shall we?

[mr_exit]

Its not just free. They go and distribute extra learning material with it... its great... truely inovative thinking to the piracy problem

and as its just for learning it of course comes with a watermark on your renders and it saves to a closed format that the comercial version cant read (to save companies trying to skimp on licenceing fees)

Re:Let's follow the logic, shall we?

[Anonymous Coward]

Motorist A pulls up to a stoplight where Motorist B is waiting. Motorist A does a smoky burnout while Police Officer C watches. Motorist B takes off like a bat out of hell. Despite Motorist B breaking speed limit laws, and hitting pedestrian D, Police officer C issues a traffic violation to Motorist A.

Meanwhile, Ambulance E is speeding through stoplights to get to pedestrian D - Breaking more speeding laws.

Bottom line is, once I run out of letters, I'll have to end my story.

Re:Let's follow the logic, shall we?

[Anonymous Coward]

"University graphical art programs would rather use Tool C which costs $150 and a 'normal' registration system so that they can install it on more than one workstation. (1st instance of 'piracy)"

Thereafter poor paying university tool c persons cannot acquire a job, deeming there degrees/knowledge unusable and further slowing the economy. (3rd instance of piracy)

ill be damned if someone is going to steal my 4 years of hard work by pirating my job.

Re:Let's follow the logic, shall we?

[dirvish]

I think the free version also watermarks.

It is bad for the people

[cpuffer_hammer]

Using proprietary software even if it is free, "Free" or what ever still leaves you dependent.

The only road that is going to help in the long run is to build up the real skills a country is going to need is to go with Free Software. We have been over all the arguments before. It always comes down to who will be in control of the tools. If you are in control of the tools than you have the power reach your goals, if someone else has the tools then it is them that will reach their dreams and you might get the crumbs off the table if you are have dreams that fit their needs.

Re:It is bad for the people

[Richard_at_work]

Using proprietary software even if it is free, "Free" or what ever still leaves you dependent.

Oh pllllllluuuueeeessseee. Your killing me. What company really has the required skill set to take a OSS project and alter it to their own needs? id say relativly few. So they are still tied in to that proprietory system. Only now they are at the whim of a few hundred thousand coders who seem to change stuff in OSS projects at a whim (the linux 2.4 VM change...). Something gets changed, and you can do 1 of 2 things:

1. Stick where they are and live with the odler version 2. upgrade to the latest version

Kinda the same situation now isnt it? only now the economy suffers as noone is buying software. I can really think of only one tool that can get into a corporate arena with any force, and thats openoffice. other tools jsut seem kinda amaturish.

Dont get me wrong, i like OSS, jsut dont say "oooh piracy is advocated in the OSS arena" which is essentially waht u are saying.

Re:It is bad for the people

[antirename]

Yeah, and it's kind of interesting that the BSA counts downloading OS software as "piracy" in its statistics, isn't it? I guess it does deprive them of a sale... or does it?

Re:It is bad for the people

[cpuffer_hammer]

Using proprietary software even if it is free, "Free" or what ever still leaves you dependent.

Oh pllllllluuuueeeessseee. Your killing me. What company really has the required skill set to take a OSS project and alter it to their own needs? id say relativly few.

But that true of most proprietary packages as well. A lack of local venders makes this an even bigger problem. At least with Free Software a host of local businesses can be grown to service these needs. In fact this would be a good place for the government to invest as a way to start a local economy in software services.

So they are still tied in to that proprietary system. Only now they are at the whim of a few hundred thousand coders who seem to change stuff in OSS projects at a whim (the linux 2.4 VM change...).

That was bad and it should not have been done the way it was. But I will except the point. Even then there were alternatives like the -ac line.

Something gets changed, and you can do 1 of 2 things:

1. Stick where they are and live with the older version 2. upgrade to the latest version
Kinda the same situation now isnt it?

This is also true. but because Free Software tends to stick to well documented open standards it is less likely the new version will be a must upgrade. If you do need to upgrade you have more choices in how you do it. If version lock or conflict does happen. Setting up an both does not present as large a problem.

only now the economy suffers as no one is buying software.

But lots more people will be buying software services from local vendors. This means the growth of a local industry. There are also national security advantages and economic advantages to not being dependant on far away places for your tools. There are social advantages in that local people can find jobs near there families.

I can really think of only one tool that can get into a corporate arena with any force, and thats openoffice. other tools jsut seem kinda amaturish.

I think this is a weak argument. The hammer and the screwdriver have not changed much since there invention. (at least in the modern age). With tools that can do the job, why even get on the upgrade rat race.

Dont get me wrong, i like OSS, jsut dont say "oooh piracy is advocated in the OSS arena" which is essentially waht u are saying.

No I am not saying that at all.
I am saying that making yourself (an individual or as a nation) dependent of someone else puts you at a state of lesser control.

There is a big difference between being interdependent and being completely dependent. Yes you will be interdependent but you will still have control over the software you have and can create more. You can use your resources to push projects in the direction you want them to go.

Unlicensed copying is not a problem in the Free Software world. There is no "piracy". In fact most Free Software Advocates are against unlicensed copying, it weakens the protections that protect Free Software, it removes some of the advantages, and it is constancy used as a stick to beet Free Software by calming the at Free Software does Advocate "Piracy"

This is a good point of view

[Richard_at_work]

Id say this is a damn good point of view. And it may jsut go the way of the software vendors as well. Get students to train on your software, and you have them for life. Or untill a fat penguin beats them up on a dark night :)

But then again, i bet the software vendors fight them on this, and i can understand why. If it becomes free for educational purposes, then when will it become free for non profit use? inhouse company training? Home office work? Where does it stop? And please dont say "use linux". People will deem whatever is best for them the stuff to buy.

Microsoft would probably be OK with it.

[Prof.Phreak]

Well, they might not be totally OK, but I'm sure if they had a choice about people pirating THEIR software or using FREE software, they'd go for people pirating THEIR software (they're not making any money either way, but at least their software becomes standard in the industry and school/college graduates know it since they've been using it a few years in school :-)

Didn't Bill Gates say something of that sort a few years back, like "I'd rather have them pirate our software than someone else's."

Re:Microsoft would probably be OK with it.

[fermion]

Hello, did we already forget that MS audits schools, even to the point of insisting that they buy full licensing, including windows, word, etc, for every box, including Macs. The above argument only applies in a healthy marketplace, in which the various agents are actually free to make choices.

M$ might have not cared a few years ago when MS was flush with money and sales from companies also flush with money. However this is no longer the case, and MS has been doing everything to get cash from strapped companies. In particular M$ is trying to extorts as much money from schools as possible with only the Linux counter threat saving taxpayers from a multi-million dollar theft.

Re:Microsoft would probably be OK with it.

[Prof.Phreak]

I wonder what they'll do if the board of education (or something) approaches them and says to them: "if you don't leave us alone, we'll simply switch to Linux everywhere"

It just takes a few important pissed off customers to make companies wish they weren't so nitpicky. My school switched from getting thousands of Compaq's to getting thousands of Dell boxes because Compaq's tech support was "rude" to the guy who makes the buy decision. I bet Compaq wasn't too happy to loose a multimillion dollar deal like that.

Microsoft may do this now, but I'm sure they'll regret it big time if they ever loose the education market completely (not just the money, but the public exposure - everybody knows what Word is because that's what everybody writes their term papers in).

Piracy vs sovereignty

[smoondog]

Piracy is a interesting word, one that really can't be defined without an understanding of our democratic/capitalistic society.

Copyright holders need to realize that countries that are sovereign from the US may make decisions that are not in their perceived best interests. The countries have a right to do that. If the company has a problem with that, they have two choices. 1) Play politics in that country 2) Not do business in that country. Unfortunately, the third option is often 3) get US to get pissed at that country (not necessarily playing fair, IMO).

I think this decision will ultimately have two outcomes, 1) Students will start to like using certain pieces of software (in the copyright holders interest) 2) Students will have less respect for copyrights (not in the copyright holders interest)

Just my .02

-Sean

Re:Piracy vs sovereignty

[toofan]

Actually no. There are certain global agreements that the G-7 nations strong-arm the others into signing. These agreements ensure that nations respect each other's copyright and patent laws.

I think it is called the GATT (General Agreement on Trade and Tarriffs). I don't know whether Malaysia has signed this agreement. I would presume they have, since Intel is manufacturing chips there.

I know that there are some countries, especially in the Middle East where there are no copyright laws, and "piracy" is legal.

Re:Piracy vs sovereignty

[dmarx]

Students will have less respect for copyrights (not in the copyright holders interest)

How is this different from the current situtation in the US?

Some Things Don't Make Sense

[Rivard]

Some laws, especially American copyright laws, don't make sense to other countries. Obviously in America where most everyone can have access to the knowledge they need--not always the material posessions or food--through public libraries and educational institutions, it makes sense for us to charge for everything.

Charging $50 for a book on the flu doesn't not necessarily inhibit the dessemination of knowledge. We have informative news resources that can keep us abreast of developments, libraries and cheap access to the Internet to keep us in tune with what we need to know and even seek out specific facets of curiosity.

However in other countries some educational institutions cannot afford to stock the basics, the extreme capitalism makes sense to be bent. While it certainly does hurt the manufactures, it doesn't severly impede economic development, but may actually spur it as more people can learn, and ten build on their knowledge.

What about this....

[ApheX]

If the software is for educational use - why not just charge whatever it cost to get the physical product to the user. So, if a copy of Office is being bought for educational use it costs say $10 - the price of the packaging, materials, shipping and handling. If the software is being used by a FOR-profit organization, the retail pricing applies. This allows educational institutions to legally own the software, while not 'hurting' the software company quite as bad. It would simply require selling more in the retail sector to make up for the R&D and programming costs. I do understand that you can get NFR copies of software, but even then the prices of these products are way over the physical cost of the product.

Make software more affordable and people will buy it instead of pirating it. Yes, you will still have people who insist on having a free lunch, but I think this would curtail the problem considerably.

Re:What about this....

[Sandman1971]

Corel did just this a few years ago. While still in school, I purchased Corel's Wordperfect Suite for 15$ and Corel Draw 7 for 20$. These were Student Edition versions. They were not restricted in any way. The only thing you didn't get with them were the manuals.

I don't know if Corel is still keeping up this practice, but it's/was damn smart of them.

Re:What about this....

[Huge Pi Removal]

"So, if a copy of Office is being bought for educational use it costs say $10 - the price of the packaging, materials, shipping and handling"

Microsoft do even better than this: for charities (at least in the UK) the 1st 3 licences for Office XP are FREE. Then it's a normal edu-type charge for more licences.

Nice MS :)

*Cough* first hit is always free *Cough*

AutoDesk has expressed this as well

[peterdaly]

In the past, I believe I have heard an AutoDesk executive comment on this in an interview about piracy. While I am sure it may not be their official position, they commented about be light on enforcement of piracy in the educational arena (for students that is) since it was getting users hooked on the software who would be legit professional users of the product after getting out of school.

It seems like many companies (at least the smart ones) have a love hate relationship with the education piracy topic. In the Java world at least, I am seeing many companies get what I believe is the best license. Free to use for development etc. but production rollout of the product or the output of a product needs a commercial use license. I know at least the Resin servlet container and Oracle's Java IDE are like that.

-Pete

if you ran Microsoft ...

[timothy]

how hard would you (really) fight this?

Sounds like a good deal, the sort of deal that MS gets by providing cheap software to students in the US, but without the hassle of moving around actual disks, paying for packaging, lawyers and underlings to deal with the licensing, etc.

So kids graduate from school with knowledge / familiarity with MS products, then they go to work. (Not that all Malaysians get deskjobs with computers, but talking about those who can and do.)

Now lowers the boom. That software it was OK to use for free (read "get used to") isn't OK for your employer to get for free. Thanks, here's your manual and shiny certificate.

Publically, MS probably needs to not thank anyone in Malaysia aloud, and keep on the track of the evil malicious dirty pirates ...

timothy

HAHAH

[Anonymous Coward]

Stupid dog eating gooks pay for you software already. If you can't afford it tell your mom "5 dolla sucky sucky"

Re:HAHAH

[Rivard]

If you are going to claim superiority you could at least attempt to appear somewhat superior.

Fair Use?

[commodoresloat]

I'm not sure they should even call it piracy under the circumstances. In theory at least this could be considered fair use; at least one purpose of fair use is to promote knowledge and education. I know current US case law regarding fair use would hardly uphold such an interpretation, but it is not that far-fetched.

Re:Fair Use?

[MisterBlister]

I'm not sure they should even call it piracy under the circumstances. In theory at least this could be considered fair use; at least one purpose of fair use is to promote knowledge and education. I know current US case law regarding fair use would hardly uphold such an interpretation, but it is not that far-fetched.

Agreed.

WWTJD? (What would Thomas Jefferson do). He'd support this as valid fair use for sure, though obviously current law has deviated from his original ideals.

Why not use OSS software in school?

[dmouritsendk]

I dont get it, about 70%(wild guess, i have nothing to back thit up with) of the software used in schools could be replaced by OSS software.

As an example, I want to use the most commonly taken IT education in Denmark. It takes two years, with intensive training in c++/conceps/etc. They used Borland or VC++ in most of the schools offering it, Access for database course(some of the bigger Colleges like Copenhagen Business College where i took the classes use MySql though, hurraaz for them..) and visio in some of the system design courses.

Why not just use GCC, MYSQL and OpenOffice? Then schools would'nt have to endorse copying of software, I heard this in two separate classes. Not that the teach was telling students to "just go copy it", instead they used phrases like "You could problertly loan one from one of you classmates".

I think thats kinda ironic, on a programming education. They basically teach its ok to "loan" other peoples stuff if you need it..

OSS in schools would stop that.

Re:Why not use OSS software in school?

[Anonymous Coward]

What if your wild guess what wrong and the real number is 10%?

The slashdot logic:

1. Come up with a number taken from the moon.
2. Bullshit about why and what based on the number from the moon.

Re:Why not use OSS software in school?

[dmouritsendk]

1. Come up with a number taken from the moon
Eeeh dude, I didnt look at the moon and imagine it. I just tried to think about it, and then maked a guess.

As I see it, the only software that could'nt be easily replaced by OSS conterparts would be higly specific stuff like very advanced math/physics software etc.

I think the most installed software in most schools would be office and explorer.

2. Bullshit about why and what based on the number from the moon.
The bullshit was primarily based on the software i saw used on a education i attended.

Re:Why not use OSS software in school?

[innerlimit]

Malaysia, and the whole region, is host to REAL BLOODY PIRATES, scary stuff man!!

in our school, we were told to 'get hold of' Borland C++ ... nuff said? They do have a fully licensed win2k computerpark and even a SQL-server.

To do UML modelling we use Rational Rose (which uses a reg server)
now where do we have to get hold of RRose when we want to do our assignments at home?

i'm pretty sure that NOT ONE of my fellow students paid for their Borland or their winXP
C development thrives on linux, but sadly enough our exposure to linux @ school is nothing more than a measly two hours a week in one semester, given by a teacher, with all due respect ms, IMO doesn't know jack shit! well that's my 0.02

Re:Why not use OSS software in school?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not just use GCC, MYSQL and OpenOffice? Because they aren't Borland/VC++, Access and MS Office.

I'm sorry. While they are all good solutions you suggested, they stand about same chance as Brainfuck being adopted in modern schools.

thievery is what I call it

[loz]

oi! when I still went to school, I couldn't go into a random bookstore, and walk out with a bundle without paying for it. they would cut off my hands.

I assume any Malaysian can go to any college and university for free there?

loz

Re:thievery is what I call it

[SteelX]

I assume any Malaysian can go to any college and university for free there?

I sure wish that's the case. I'm Malaysian and my parents worked really hard just to put me through school, college, and university. The discriminatory government didn't help either, but that's a different story.

And in case you're wondering about my views on this topic, no I don't support software piracy and I think it's wrong.

It's Malaysia...

[TheHouseMouse]

Compare the average budget between a university or high school in America, then compare it to that of a university of high school in Malaysia. The the prices to each are the same. They simply CAN'T afford expensive software, or even cheaper software. In many countries, US$50 is a LOT of money....money that could be better spent on necessities. And until American software manufactures realize that trying to sell a thousand dollar CAD package (+ many licenses) to a University in Malaysia is INSANE, there will be piracy. So if the Malaysian government would rather not spend their time busting Schools, more power to them!

As a Malaysian

[SteelX]

As a Malaysian, I am ashamed to read on Slashdot that a Malaysian minister actually says that it's okay to pirate software, never mind that it's for educational purposes. Pirating software is still stealing software, no matter how you look at it.

Like the Slashdotters who have posted before me, I've resorted to using Linux and other open source alternatives instead of pirated software.

Having said that, I do understand the reasons that motivate many Malaysians and other citizens of developing and third-world countries to pirate software. One of the main reasons is that commercial software is usually sold at the equivalent price of US dollars. This means that software is almost four times as expensive in Malaysia. A US$100 software sounds relatively cheap here in the US, but in Malaysia it would cost almost RM400 (RM = Ringgit Malaysia). Many individuals, educational organizations, and so forth find such prices ridiculously high. Imagine buying 10 licenses: it would cost US$1,000 here, but it'll cost RM4,000 there. Therefore they resort to pirating software.

It would be good if software companies here in the US provide alternative prices for developing countries. It's really unrealistic to expect people to pay for software at such prices. Maybe they already do that, but I don't know.. I use Linux. :)

Actually it would be even better if governments advocate the use of open source software. But first, open source software must get its act up as a viable alternative for commercial software. At the moment, it's not "there" yet, for many desktop applications anyway.

Re:As a Malaysian

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

As an american, I'm tired of my country's corporatist culture raping other nations like your own. I'm tired of them redefining words like theft and piracy to fit their agendas, and acting as if laws so new, that the check they used to buy them hasn't quite cleared the bank. I'm especially sick of them acting as if these laws have any moral weight at all.

I'm sorry, but no one in this country will go hungry, should your schools ever decide to infringe our dubious copyrights.

Re:As a Malaysian

[Snoopy77]

You've got it all wrong, companies in the US provide alternative wages ofr developing countries, not prices. /me hangs head in shame

Re:As a Malaysian

[BlueWonder]

Pirating software is still stealing software, no matter how you look at it.

Don't know about Malaysia, but in the laws of most countries copyright infringement is distinct from stealing.

Re:As a Malaysian

[Anonymous Coward]

Pirating software is not 'stealing' by any sense of the term.

'Stealing' involves depriving someone else of the item that is stolen. Software piracy does not do this.

This is why there are separate laws known as 'Copyright' laws. When someone is conviceted of pirating software, it is never considered theft in the court system, and has its own set of lesser penalties.

Re:As a Malaysian

[ceejayoz]

So as long as you don't live in the USA, you should be exempt from copyright laws?

Re:As a Malaysian

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

From the US copyright laws?

Well, only if you believe in national sovergnty for other nations. Duh.

The hordes of rabid retards willing to take dubious bought-and-paid-for laws as some sort of biblical commandment is literally unbelievable.

Re:As a Malaysian

[dmarx]

Yes, if you don't live in the USA, you are exempt from US copyright laws. And guess what? If you don't live in Malaysia, you are exampt from Malaysian copyright laws!

Re:As a Malaysian

[kubrick]

but no one in this country will go hungry

I'd be out there donating to homeless people if you want to make this prediction true.

Re:As a Malaysian

[ignavus]

Pirating software is still stealing software, no matter how you look at it.

No. If I steal your installation disks, I have stolen your software. But if I merely copy them (which is not real piracy[1] at all), I have stolen (deprived someone of) nothing. All I have done is illegally copied them. It may be an offence, but it isn't the offence called THEFT.

Think of a hammer. If I take your hammer, that is theft - I am depriving you of the use of your hammer. If I see some gadget you have made, and I build an exact replica - I haven't deprived you of anything. You still have your gadget exactly as it was before I copied it.

What's more, I haven't even deprived you of the money you might want me to pay for copying the gadget. Why? Because there is no guarantee that I would have bought it at the price you charge. That is why estimates of the value of illegally copied software are quite ridiculous - they assume that the demand would remain steady even if the price were severely increased (from zero for illegally copied software to hundreds or thousands of dollars if bought) ... I really doubt that demand for any software is THAT inelastic. Only some users must have a particular version - most others can use alternatives. Even MS sells Works for people who won't buy Office. That is why so many companies are now considering Linux instead of paying MS's new prices. The software market IS price-sensitive.

Illegally copying software is illegal - but the government can determine which instances of copying are legal and which are not. A government could pass a law saying that software licences do not apply to educational institutions. Of course, the governments of other countries may fight against such laws. And the country with the most significant software companies (the US) carries a lot of clout in international markets and trade forums. The Malaysian government is trying to have a bet each way, I think: Retain "strong" copyright laws as required by international trade agreements, but wink at breaches in certain local circumstances. Trouble is, the rest of the world can see them do it.

[1] When did you ever see a pirate movie where the raiders came on board and COPIED the contents of their victim's ship? (Gee, great gold chain you have here. Could I make one just like it?)

Re:As a Malaysian

[zCyl]

Pirating software is still stealing software, no matter how you look at it.

Actually, copying software is only stealing software ONE way you look at it. To steal, you have to violate the boundaries of property and ownership. The boundaries of what are ownership is completely culturally specific. Some cultures have promoted slavery, ownership of people, such that if you freed a person who was owned, you were stealing. Most cultures today would call such ideas ludicrous, because we no longer accept that people can be owned.

You say copying software is absolutely and definitely stealing. This is only true if exclusive rights to a certain set of computer instructions can be "owned". There IS no absolute answer to that, and there can be no absolute answer to that.

Ownership is simply a mutual societal agreement. We all agree cars are owned, so we have created penalties for taking someone else's car. We don't think air is owned, so breathing air off of someone else's property does not require compensation.

Why then have some cultures chosen to consider sets of computer instructions ownable? The truth is, it's primarilly because people who thought they could profit from such an idea payed lawmakers to promote such an idea, and the idea spread. As soon as words such as "pirate" and "theft" were used, people started to get the idea that maybe software could be owned. Don't underestimate the value of labeling and defining something to change the public's view of the world.

Now we have a software "industry" that "produces" software which is "pirated" by a process of "software theft" by "hackers".

Just as easily we could have a "field of computer science" that "invents" software which is "shared" by a process of "scientific communication" by "scientists".

Those two paragraphs describe the exact same phenomenon. The first is a criminal act, the second a well respected act which benefits all of humanity. The only real difference is the labels, how we define things, and the cultural values which come from that.

As a person from Malaysia, you should respect that each culture has a right to choose its own cultural values. There's nothing inherently wrong with them choosing to think of it as sharing, education, scientific advancement, and the betterment of their society. The only think that is inherently wrong is for us to respond, "No, the way we look at it is absolute, and is the only way to see it!"

Re:As a Malaysian

[GrouchoMarx]

It would be good if software companies here in the US provide alternative prices for developing countries.

But if they did that, there would very quickly be a large market for people to buy the Malasian edition of 3D Studio Max ($100 USD equivalent), bring it to the US, and sell it for $150, as compared to the $$$$ USD it sells for normally. Of course, the way to prevent that is.... region codes like in DVDs. Eh, sorry, what was that about free trade again? :-)

Re:As a Malaysian

[thumbtack]

As an American who spent 2 1/2 years in Malaysia, doing IT work before the Multimedia Super Corridor was started, I can tell you that software is easily available usually on pressed discs at a small portion of the retail price. While not as rampant as music and video copies, it is easily available. The price usually depends of the merchant and if you are local or not. (you may not even be able to purchase it if you are not known or at least of a native ethnic race).

In a country where the cost of Macromedia Director can cost the equivalent of 2 months middle level managers salary, the incentive to "pirate" is high. I spent two months convincing the boss that we had to have a legal version of Director. A better solution would be to produce the software in the native language, (Bahasa Malaysia which is very similar to Indonesian) which limits the outside interest, and ability to use it.

Re:As a Malaysian

[Anonymous Coward]

And you need to take into consideration the value of money. In USA, the starting salary for a programmer is around US 50k/year. But In Malaysia the starting salary is around RM 20k/year which equal US 5k/year. Software price are insanely high here in Malaysia.

note: You can check the salary for programmer in US in yahoo.com careers.

Re:As a Malaysian

[donky]

It would be good if software companies here in the US provide alternative prices for developing countries. It's really unrealistic to expect people to pay for software at such prices. Maybe they already do that, but I don't know.. I use Linux. :)

The main problem is that people from other countries can now buy the cheaper version through the internet.

A subset of this is parallel importing, where a vendor imports from a cheaper market rather than from the vendor themselves. In some countries this is illegal and in some it isn't. In those that it isn't illegal in, the vendors could compete against the other non-parallel importing vendors by offering the product at a price the others aren't able to source the product at from the developer.

However, with the upcoming Palladium from microsoft, we could probably expect region coding on software and other funky rights restrictions. Which means you might be restricted from installing and running versions which weren't produced for your part of the world.

Re:As a Malaysian

[fairplay]

Malaysia is not a poor country by any means.( Oil, Timber, Electronic) The govt can afford to pay for legal software. Teaching children 'stealing is OK' is certainly not right. IF the money spent on fancy ( partially occupied) buildings is diverted to education, Malaysia won't be in this spotlight.

If you cannot afford it, don't use it.. or write your own.
By the way Malaysia is top place for pirated DVD.
Highest credit card crime.
So teaching kids to steal is right in line?

Re:As a Malaysian

[the_machine]

A US$100 software sounds relatively cheap here in the US, but in Malaysia it would cost almost RM400 (RM = Ringgit Malaysia). Many individuals, educational organizations, and so forth find such prices ridiculously high.

Perhaps that is because 1 US Dollar is worth almost 4 Ringgit Malaysia.

Re:As a Malaysian

[SteelX]

Perhaps that is because 1 US Dollar is worth almost 4 Ringgit Malaysia.

Yes, that was implied in my post. Perhaps I should've spelled it out. The ringgit has been fixed at 3.80 US dollars ever since the huge Asian economy crash back in '97-'98.

Re:As a Malaysian

[Anonymous Coward]

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SEUG has added you with rank 'low' to the new MySQL database. You are addition #804. Within the next months, this information will be distributed to advertising associations and gay pornography mailing lists.

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-- SEUG-bot8of12.pl; 0 errors parsing, 2 warnings(unambiguous HTML, external links), 1 e-mail address, 1 userid.

Software Piracy ! the way to go

[RobPiano]

As tempting as it is to say "its for the children", software piracy is not really in theirs or anyone's best interest. I see the reasoning for piracy in schools; students trained in the latest/greatest software will have an advantage over those who don't. I've known several people to even pay for their college education by working as programmers/temps/etc. But by pirating what you are really doing is keeping software costs high, and possibly limiting competition.

Part of the reason we like Linux is because of its low cost. If Windows were free, however, Linux's use might wavier. Schools will immediately use the most famous choice, ignoring competition if things are free. School heads are idiots; don't expect anything from them other than the bottom line.

I think the best solution is to have government or local contributions to pay for reasonably priced software. A competitive software company will price their software reasonably if they have a large school base to purchase their software.

Really the temptation for piracy only exists because software/music/videos are not priced so that normal profit can occur. All these markets are in excess, but I think because of the danger of losing it all to piracy, smart companies will soon price things more reasonably.

I will gladly pay $20 for my operating system. I will dance with glee to spend $50 on Photoshop. I am willing to pay for software, and my community's software if priced to compete. Don't take competition out of the equation.

Rob

Re:Software Piracy ! the way to go

[ericman31]

But by pirating what you are really doing is keeping software costs high, and possibly limiting competition.

I agree with this statement, in the sectors of the software industry where there is still competitition. Where there is competition the margins are low and the prices reflect the reality of the cost of producing the product plus marketing, distribution and profit. However, where there is no competition, like the consumer desktop market, the prices are so out of line with reality that they actually cause the piracy.

Violating intellectual property laws is wrong, no matter whether pirating copyrighted material or pretending that you wrote code that is really under GPL. But, MS is obviously making a huge margin off of it's consumer software based on their budget surplus (they have over $30 billion in the bank). If you stop to think about it, the average consumer here in the US doesn't really have the money to meet these prices, let alone Malaysia. If MS were to lower their software prices, their actual sales would likely go up and their instances of piracy down.

Re:Software Piracy ! the way to go

[Nameles]

If you're that happy, buy a $50 copy of Photoshop LE and pirate the full version.

Re:Software Piracy ! the way to go

[Vortran]

Let me know when you find that $50 Photoshop.. or $35 AutoCad or Maya. What do you recommend for people (like me) who cannot afford to buy software like the stuff we use at work and want to just fiddle around and learn at home?

As I said in a previous post, this is where free-as-in-beer software finds a niche - at least for me. I can't afford a $600 Photoshop, but Gimp definitely within my reach. Too bad we don't use Gimp at work.

Vortran out

Analogy to Film Studies

[cyberon22]

IANAL and all, but I believe the United States already lets educators screen films and television shows for students without paying a cent in royality fees. It's worth noting that this isn't a universal right. Film professors in some countries can get jailed for showing films in class without arranging royalty payments....

The thorny distinction might be "learning from" and "learning with" though. After all, the US doesn't legislate free cameras for film students and photographers....

Err Maya....

[MosesJones]

Already is free for non-commercial use check out their download page for details.

Its an interesting point but Maya is an example of a company that has already thought of this....

Makes sense

[t_allardyce]

It makes perfect sense for developers to give their software away for educational purposes, not only because it generates a large base of prospective paying users, but also because its pretty much the only way to police piracy. Theres no way you can track down every single person with an illigal copy, but its not so hard to find the relatively smaller number of companies that are using pirate software.

Someone who wants to learn 3D-Max probably cant afford to pay $2000 for a copy, so they wont buy it - no sale has been lost. A production company will wipe their asses with $2000 no problems, so if their employees all like Max, thats what they'll get.

Although its not really the governments place to decide that software has to be given away for free, Malaysia is not really a capitalist country :)

Re:Makes sense

[Erwos]

Actually, 3DS Max is a poster-boy for what you're advocating. Didn't they release a free, stripped-down version of their software for mod authors? It's a very good idea, and Lightwave should give some thought to a similar thing.

Unfortunately, you then go and ruin your whole argument with the typical piracy justification. It might not be worth $2000 to you, but it's apparently worth _something_ to you (since you went to the trouble of downloading it), and you've taken that from the company.

Or, more simply put, you can't steal something because you can't afford it, even its loss wouldn't affect the owner. Stealing a couple grand from Bill Gates might be totally un-noticable to him, but it's stealing nonetheless.

-Erwos

Re:Makes sense

[t_allardyce]

"Or, more simply put, you can't steal something because you can't afford it, even its loss wouldn't affect the owner. Stealing a couple grand from Bill Gates might be totally un-noticable to him, but it's stealing nonetheless."

You didnt make the difference between having no effect and and un-noticable effect. Since i couldn't actually afford to spend thousends on a peice of software i wouldnt buy it. Its as simple as that, there is no way in hell if all the pigs in the world started flying into skyscrapers and the sky turned pink that i would buy the expensive software, its just not going to happen, so, if i couldnt download said software i wouldnt have it. I would just never use it, so there is no way that you can say X software company is loosing a sale.

Finally, some sense.

[man_ls]

Educational (at least publically-funded primary and secondary schools, i.e. high school) institutions frequently lack cash--so as a result, they either use pirated software (dangerous and illegal) or simply do without necessary software (i.e. half the machines don't have MS Word because they can't afford licenses for them.)

By allowing the software companies to write off software used in nonprofit institutions, they are in essence getting the same thing as if they sold the profit--only the number goes on the other end of the stack, on the debt side, and cancels a part of it. It keeps them happy (there is a simulated positive cash flow), and keeps the nonprofit organizations happy because they don't have to spend as much on licenses.

Perhaps if a large software manufactuerer were willing to announce such a policy in the United States...If you're an educational organization, catalog the number of pirated copies of Microsoft software, and send it, along with a copy of a certificate of tax excception and a signed affidavit of compliance to Microsoft Piracy...the promise being MS won't take action against you for the declared copies. Forget to declare some, and you're in trouble...

The Malaysian government has a very different stance than we have here in the US, but it seems to be one that will be beneficial for all parties involved.

Re:Finally, some sense.

[esarjeant]

Somehow I doubt the commercial software establishment will be eager to adopt this kind of sales strategy. For that matter, why would academic / non-profit organizations have any insentive to buy MS software to begin with.

To some extent, the real problem is the version of Word that arrived on one machine is incompatible with the version that arrived on another. For that matter, the entire OS is incompatible between systems and these institutions are being forced to upgrade for even the most basic computing needs. The commercial software establishment has created this problem, I don't think piracy is the solution but there needs to be some leaniency with how licenses get managed by schools or non-profit organizations.

Perhaps a more realistic solution is to provide these user groups with a truly "open license" that presents them with a fixed cost to maintain all software in their organization. The granularity should not be at a per-seat level, but rather more like small / medium and large schools. Private schools should be treated differently than state or public institutions, and non-profit organizations should get a fixed-rate. This would get sent to the US government, which in turn would provide commercial software companies with tax incentives and/or cash infusions.

Of course, given the complexity of implementing any reasonable licensing scheme with commercial software, it's ultimately going to be easier to adopt open-source solutions like Linux.

Re:Finally, some sense.

[man_ls]

>>>Of course, given the complexity of >>>implementing any reasonable licensing scheme >>>with commercial software, it's ultimately >>>going to be easier to adopt open-source >>>solutions like Linux.

Possibly easier to adopt but certainly not easier to support. Linux is a hassal enough when I try to support a single workstation that was going to be a Windows replacement...Plus, on new hardware, Linux seems to lag a bit or require tricks to get it working right. In addition, it's less tolerant of abuse than Windows is -- what generates kernel panics or unuseable kernels in Linux generates a bluescreen you can boot "safe mode" to repair, but Linux (to my knowledge) doesn't have a "safe mode" to fix something if you screwed it up.

Please note that I am not bashing Linux -- I see your point 100% about it being easier to roll out from a licensing standpoint, but the support nightmare and confusion of Windows users wouldn't be worth it. Linux has a ways to go before it can truely replace Windows in every environment -- but it is approaching the time when it will be a real competitor, not just a hobbiest's OS. Even in the passed year, it's come a long way.

It's not "stealing".

[fmaxwell]

That stealing is ok if the cause is deemed just?

Copyright infringement is not theft. If you steal something from me, you have it and I no longer do. If a school in Malaysia pirates a copy of Photoshop, Adobe has no fewer copies than they did before the school pirated it.

From an ethical standpoint, a more meaningful consideration is whether the school is depriving someone of revenue. In other words, are they pirating the software to avoid paying for it or are they pirating it because they are unable or unwilling to pay for it? If a 14 year old kid that gets a pirated copy of 3D Studio Max -- a $3,500 software package, who is being hurt? The publisher had no reasonable expectation that the kid could have purchased it.

Please keep in mind that the above is a discussion of ethics, not law. The law has made many ethical acts illegal. Just look at the effects of the DMCA, for instance. Or consider that it is illegal for you to exceed the posted speed limit even if you are transporting someone to the emergency room after a serious injury.

Re:It's not "stealing".

[s4ltyd0g]

Don't argue semantics with me.

Are you preaching it's ok to download mp3s or software you don't own cause that's copyright infringement but taking candy from the store is wrong because thats stealing?

If they were really concerned with being ethical, they would use free software and the likes. But something tells me they wouldn't respect those licenses any more than so called comercial software.

Re:It's not "stealing".

[bernie shifman troll]

you're a complete fuckwad, obviously, if you don't get the difference between theft and copyright infringement. you're trebly the fool by virtue of your false ethical sensibilities that underscore a complete lack of understanding of the world you live in.. people don't "steal" software, they share it. then they use it, sometimes even learn how to use it well enough so that they can make a living with it, and end up paying for the legitimate rights to use that software for business purposes. "Piracy" is an important part of the perfect software circle, and it contributes to monopolies to make our world better.

Re:It's not "stealing".

[fmaxwell]

Don't argue semantics with me.

Then use the proper terms in your writing.

Are you preaching it's ok to download mp3s or software you don't own cause that's copyright infringement but taking candy from the store is wrong because thats stealing?

I'm not "preaching" anything. If you pirate something in lieu of paying for it (or a competing product), I believe that is unethical because you are depriving someone of revenue. If you download something that you would not, or could not, pay for, you are not harming anyone. In some cases, it's a "good thing" for all involved. For instance, I downloaded MP3s of the Goo Goo Dolls after hearing a song of theirs on the radio that I liked. When I liked what I heard, I went out and bought their CD Dizzy Up The Girl. That's not something I was prepared to do prior to my heinous act of copyright infringement.

If they were really concerned with being ethical, they would use free software and the likes.

So they are supposed to teach students to be proficient in using Adobe Photoshop and Microsoft Office by using free software? This may come as a shock to you, but there are a lot more jobs for people skilled in the use of commercial software tools than for those who know how to use GIMP and OpenOffice.org. Not every course involving computers is one in which students are being taught to program or design computers.

Re:It's not "stealing".

[kz45]

Are you preaching it's ok to download mp3s

stealing music has a different excuse: "the artists are getting screwed"

I have yet to hear a good excuse for the stealing of movies, though.

Re:It's not "stealing".

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.janisian.com/article-internet_debacle.h tml

on music copyright infringement and the RIAA.

Re:It's not "stealing".

[glesga_kiss]

If a 14 year old kid that gets a pirated copy of 3D Studio Max -- a $3,500 software package, who is being hurt? The publisher had no reasonable expectation that the kid could have purchased it.

They'd probably count it in their $X Billion Cost Due To Piracy "statistics" though...

Take a clue from book publishers

[dracken]

Many publishers (notably Prentice hall, Addison Wesley, Morgan Kaufman) have Eastern Economy Editions that are 1/20 th of the price of the *same* book sold in the US. See Here (its about $5 ). Since most third world countries have neither the students nor the educational instituitions to afford costly books, this scheme works very well. (Nearly zero book piracy, people buy their own copies. Publishers atleast break even).

Software companies on the other hand dont even have the constraints that the book publishers have (almost zero cost of making copies, comparitively easier distributions etc etc). If they want to sell a copy of their software at the very same price that they sell in the US, they are *bound* to have problems of piracy in academia and governments turning a blind eye to it. They should take a clue from the book publishers.

-Dracken

In related news...

[MosesJones]

Students too poor to buy Ferraris, Burma goverment rules "okay to steal for educational purposes".

Schools short of top quality teachers, Kansas rules "okay to kidnap teachers from other States"

Microsoft operating as a monopoly and using its position to squash competition, fine says George W Bush as long as I get the campaign contribution.

Re:In related news...

[ceejayoz]

Troll? Nay, Insightful.

Re:In related news...

[GlassUser]

That would make perfect sense, if you could go up to a machine, put in a quarter, and a perfect copy of your friend's ferarri could pop out, while he still keeps his, and would never know you had yours.

Re:In related news...

[Anonymous Coward]

if you made a copy of the blueprints for a ferrari from ferrari's R&D offices, im sure they would come after you with everything they had.
so yes, this does make perfect sense -- its theft and everyone knows it.

Piracy is just as wrong in education!

[lowieken]

As a Free Software user, I have deep respect for copyright laws.
I expect everyone to act responsibly and condemn piracy. It is a task for government to act against software piracy. That is a way of keeping the market open and honest.

Monopolies were born from and are sustained by piracy. How do you think Microsoft software got so widespread?
The corporate world abuses the lack of government attention to software piracy in any way they see suitable to their own corporate strategy.

By not reacting against piracy, you allow a convicted monopolist to undercut competitors (Free Software in this case) on pricing. And education is a key area where finally some competition might be taking off in the near future.

But not if this minister gets away with his irresponsible deed. Maybe we should ask the BSA to react if they haven't already?

That's why educational discounts exist.

[SlashChick]

Proprietary software vendors bend over backwards to give out discounts to educational institutions. Why? Because people who become comfortable using a specific piece of software will want to buy that software later for home and work purposes. In fact, Apple's strategy for the past 20 years has been to give discounted computers to educational institutions in the hopes that this would spur consumer adoption of the Macintosh.

Microsoft gives ridiculously deep discounts to educational institutions. I have friends who go to Indiana University. At the bookstore there, you can pick up Windows XP Professional (no activation required) for $5. The entire 5-CD version of Visual Studio .Net is available for $30. At these prices, there is absolutely no incentive to pirate the software. If you can't afford $5 for Windows XP, how can you afford $8 from Linux for Cheapbytes, or the bandwidth for downloading the ISOs, the CD burner and blank CDs to burn them?

Condoning pirated software in these cases is simply unacceptable. I find it discouraging that a government would encourage educational institutions to pirate software instead of ironing out legitimate deals with software makers.

Re:That's why educational discounts exist.

[mz001b]

Microsoft gives ridiculously deep discounts to educational institutions. I have friends who go to Indiana University. At the bookstore there, you can pick up Windows XP Professional (no activation required) for $5. The entire 5-CD version of Visual Studio .Net is available for $30. At these prices, there is absolutely no incentive to pirate the software.

Usually this is because the University has a site license for the software that allows them to do this. The license is paid through tuition and student fees, so you are paying more than just the $5 media cost for the software.

Re:That's why educational discounts exist.

[deander2]

You are still paying a very high price for the software, it's just rolled into your tuition costs. It's really quite underhanded, considering you cannot opt-out.

Re:That's why educational discounts exist.

[Nameles]

What about those of us that want to get a head-start on our "secondary education" and aren't in a site lisenced college, but a high school in the middle of no where. Two years ago my school shelled out X for VS6, I doubt they're going to shell out X+Y for VS.NET to give a max total of 5 kids a chance.

Re:That's why educational discounts exist.

[Anonymous Coward]

I know what you mean. At my University, I can get Windows XP Pro/NT4.0/98, Visual Studio 6.0, and Office XP/2000 for free. Apple has a similar deal at my school, but I am not familiar with the software they offer.

Re:That's why educational discounts exist.

[rizzo420]

damn that's cheap... but then you gotta consider the cost of buying a computer that will actually run winxp. my 466 didn't do it too well (with my pirated copy). but you can pick up a computer for $50 that will run linux (for $8) no problem. and you can just choose to do a network install (debian kicks ass). i went to the university of connecticut and they had student discounts on software, but it wasn't anywhere near as cheap as $5 for winxp or $30 for VS.Net.

Re:That's why educational discounts exist.

[kmweber]

I don't know if that's true or not (and it really doesn't matter), but you can opt out--simply choose not to attend that institution.

Re:That's why educational discounts exist.

[commodoresloat]

I find it discouraging that a government would encourage educational institutions to pirate software instead of ironing out legitimate deals with software makers.

I find it encouraging that a government would put public education over corporate profits on their national agenda. This is not that far-fetched or anticapitalistic as you make it seem. In the US all corporations are chartered in the public interest - while these charters are rarely the subject of debate, at least by law corporations are supposed to operate in the public interest, and they are generally outlawed from doing things obnoxious to the public interest (e.g. polluting, selling illegal drugs, etc.). It seems a fair use exception to EULAs that allowed copying software for educational purposes would not be that unreasonable under the circumstances.

Also, I agree that corps should be encouraged to behave responsibly by giving to educational institutions. But most of the big software corporations do very little in real terms other than enough to get good P.R. for it. Your example about "ridiculously deep discounts" from MS assumes that is all they charge - the real charges for that software are levied on the educational institution in the form of large licenses. At the university where I work we have such a license to allow students and faculty to copy windows, etc. for a nominal cost above the price of media, but the institution paid for those licenses to the tune of millions. On top of it, the license is not advertised, which means that many students pay full price for the software anyway.

Perhaps a license to "pirate" is not the answer, but what is valuable here is that one country is at least raising the issue that the way we look at the relationship between software copyrights and legitimate state interests might neede to be rethought.

Re:That's why educational discounts exist.

[SuperPedro]

Here at WWU(wwu.edu), microsoft development software (OS's Databases, .Net, etc) are all available absolutely free to computer science majors. It's called the "E-Academy" program or something. These are full version ISO's we can burn on CD's and use on our home machines.

Say what you want about MS, but it's an awesome deal and a really smart move on their part. I'm even allowed to use this software after I graduate(for personal use only of course).

Re:That's why educational discounts exist.

[omnirealm]

Microsoft gives ridiculously deep discounts to educational institutions. ... If you can't afford $5 for Windows XP, how can you afford $8 from Linux for Cheapbytes, or the bandwidth for downloading the ISOs, the CD burner and blank CDs to burn them?

Once you leave school, you cannot use the software any more. And you cannot buy the upgrade, which means that you will have to pay full retail price once you are no longer a student. And by that time, you are already ``locked in'' to the proprietary office suite/development software/operating system/etc.

And then there's always the ``freedom'' aspect of Free Software over closed, proprietary software. Far too few students concern themselves with that aspect though.

Re:That's why educational discounts exist.

[commie_pig]

The thing is that these ridiculous discounts do not seem to exist in countries like South Africa (at least I haven't seen it yet). Our currency is quite weak (+/- R10 to a dollar) and therefore everything outside of South Africa is very pricey for us. For my studies, I require a library called LEDA, but the new versions are not free for academic use. The student license is $99 (=R999 !!!!!!!) for a year. I cannot afford this and will not pay it (and I am now stuck with an old version). Unless ALL companies have a policy of providing software for such discounts (including Adobe, Autodesk etc) then people will keep on pirating. Fact is, that these pirates are doing the companies a favour, because if people get to know these products, they will use them when they start working and at least in South Africa, it is almost impossible for a company to pirate software.

Re:That's why educational discounts exist.

[Anonymous Coward]

In Sweden we can buy some of Microsofts products at a lower price due to student discount, which is for both students and professors as i understand it.

Asian Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Chink chink chinaman sittin' on a fence, tryin' to make a dollar out of 15 cents.

Re:Asian Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

White trash, white trash has no life,
Trollin' on Slashdot cuz he lost his wife

Or.

[glrotate]

Why not just advance the counter piracy methods so that piracy is not practical. Look at all of the scrambling the pir8s are doing because of XP SP2.

Re:Or.

[ApheX]

Haven't companies tried that already? Seems like no matter what kind of prevention they make - the software STILL gets bootlegged. I have seen the sudden worry among XP warezers about SP1 and CD keys - but I am willing to guarantee someone will find a way around it.

Education software piracy = value added.

[silverhalide]

When a student finds a l33t piece of software and sits down to learn to use it, that's another user who, once they enter the marketplace, knows that software. It is NOT a lost sale for a company, for the student would have never been able to afford the software in the first place. However, now that the student knows the software, it increases the value of said tool by a little bit, because someone else can use it and the company he ends up working for will probably buy the tool. This is why you rarely hear of the BSA cracking down on pirate software at universities, because it's bad business to cut down your prospective user base like that. It also weakens the value of the software.

Tons of students out there already know Photoshop/Pagemaker/Illustrator thanks to piracy, but I'll bet not a single one paid for it. Yet, their knowledge of these tools make both the tools and the students that much more valuable.
It's a win-win situation in the education system. While it would be a bad precident to publicly endorse it, I have a feeling most software makers look the other way as it is and concentrate their efforts on people who may be turning profits from their tools.

Re:Education software piracy = value added.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea right, the BSA isn't cracking down on educational insitutions. If you belive that, I got some ocean front property in Arizona real cheap.

Come to Washington State, the BSA is going around and auditing almost all the school districts and community colleges.

Maybe....

[MrHanky]

Lots of kids use pirated versions of Photoshop, 3D Studio MAX, etc.: expensive stuff they never could afford (unless they have rich parents). Adobe and others would only lose users if these kids for some reason were prevented from using it, not real money. And less users means less skillfull users, which in turn means that not as many people would know how to use the products professionally.

OTOH: educational institutions should be funded well enough to buy licenses for the software they need. Of course, Malaysia can't afford to do that, so they just look another way when they force their universities into crime.
Ah, I forgot what I intended to say. I guess it was something along the lines of: "Software piracy is wrong, except when it isn't". Yes, that will do. Now mod me up +1 insightfull.

Re:Maybe....

[Anonymous Coward]

I am highly proficiant on Jasc Paint Shop Pro, workable in Photoshop, for 2D graphics.

I consider myself to be skilled at Bryce 4 for simple 3D scene rendering.

For web design, I use the Macromedia * MX suit of applications that integrate perfectly with each other to simplify what I would otherwise have to do in Notepad under a declaration.

All of these programs are used in the corporate world and are licensed accordingly. Hell, I was responsible for a national organization purchasing thousands of Jasc PSP licenses to use at $135 a pop--a far cry from the $350 something for Photoshop. I just can't afford the necessary licenses at my home, and can't take licenses from the organizations I'm invovled with.

Piracy is NOT the answer...

[stubear]

Perhaps instead of legalizing pircay Malaysia should mandate fair and reasonable educational pricing for software sold in their country. Whether you like it or not, companies are mostly for profit and development costs must be returned. Another issue to consider is how this will create a "software welfare" system. It doesn't work for helpig people find work and food and it won't help in this situation either.

Question posed by the writeup

[God! Awful]

how can [piracy] benefit both the people AND the software makers?

Seems kind of unlikely, doesn't it. Perhaps if a benevolent alien race someday visits Earth and rewards the founders of those companies that allow piracy for educational purposes with a vial containing a potion of eternal youth... bet you never thought about that! (Hey, you can't prove it won't happen.)

-a

Education shouldn't be the focus.

[Restil]

Microsoft and others should realize this. They can let the educational institutions run rampant with piracy if they want, and it wouldn't make much of an effect. Those who want to pirate will do so. There's not a whole lot stopping them. Those that insist on being in full compliance may do so by investigating alternatives. In the end, it makes no difference to the school. What it makes a difference to is the IP owners of the software being used.

Those students are going to use the software in school then go out into the workforce and use the software that they're familiar with. This means that employers are going to be using the software that most of the workforce is familiar with. And the corporations are much more likely to spend the cash on software than the starving college student is.

You're not going to make the money from the student or even the institution. You're going to make it from that corporation that will be spending the next 20 years buying upgrades. And when that graduate goes home from work, he's going to buy a copy to use at home. You'll lock that person in. To deny yourself that legacy by forcing the first purchase of a potential many, you risk losing all those subsequent sales, a foolish prospect indeed.

-Restil

Re:Education shouldn't be the focus.

[azzy]

There's no point in Microsoft letting an educational institution run rampant with piracy. The institution has little to zero option of using their software.. so MS gets easy money.

Yes, but...

[mark_space2001]

I think I understand, and perhaps even agree with, their basic point. Schools should not have to pay the same license fees that big business does.

I'd still aruge however that this policy is wrong. First, it truly isn't fair to force a company to sell or licesne a product for far less than they think it's worth.

The second reason why this is bad is it removes the desire to create (or look for) alternatives. If the whole Malaysian school system gets to use MS products for free, what incentive is there for the students to learn, and use, other products (like maybe Open Office) after they graduate?

And that's my basic point, I guess. This policy may sound good for Malaysia in the short run, but in the long run it just perpetuates the dominance of a few softare companies. (You'd think instead the government would at least sponsor some home grown software, and maybe create some jobs and a local insustry rather than send their money overseas.)

Re:Yes, but...

[DEBEDb]

First, it truly isn't fair to force a company to sell or licesne a product for far less than they think it's worth

Ah, but copyright LAWS can be changed to
allow educational institutions to copy software
freely. As such a law, it is on par with the
law that upholds copyright so that no one may
copy it - they are equivalent.

In other words, piracy is illegal, but what
if the laws were passed that copying copyrighted
material is legal for all non-commercial uses, say. Would that be legalizing piracy? It's a way of looking at it, of course; but I think a more correct way of looking at it is that the copyright law was just changed. How is the current law any better?

It's no longer piracy when...

[hoytt]

the country you live in doesn't call it piracy. The thing is the same as with the DMCA for instance. It's illegal to have a region free DVD in the US, but here in The Netherlands it's legal.
It just has to do with the way you call it. If Malaysia changes its laws so using copied software by students is allowed, you can no longer talk about piracy, because it doesn't exist. It may exist according to US laws, but it doesn't according to the malaysian ones. It's all a matter of how you wrap it legally.

American copyright laws don't make sense to others

[glrotate]

American copyright laws, don't make sense to other countries

And this is part of the reason these countries remain behind us. When stealing is tolerated then what incentive is their to create. Think, Atlas Shrugged. Why would any software company want to locate in Asia when they can't count on the government to protect them from being robbed?

The BSA says Capret bombing Malaysisa might be...

[Anonymous Coward]

OK for training.

The Catch-22 of Educational Piracy

[swb]

There's a catch-22 here, though. Since we're all willing to use a warez copy of expensive applications in order to get enough familiarity with them to do the work, businesses have no reason to provide training or other tool-exposure time, since we're doing it for them, even if it is piracy.

Wouldn't we be better off if businesses recognized that 3D SuperMagic Dot Net cost $5k per copy and required a testicular implant -- and thus people with the background and skills to learn the application and do the job weren't likely to walk in with those skills and should instead be exposed to a training period where they (A) learned the application in a productive fashion that helped them get productive faster?

As long as we're willing to do the industrial training businesses want ourselves, why should we expect them to hire us without work-for-pay experience?

Re:The Catch-22 of Educational Piracy

[hendridm]

> businesses have no reason to provide training or other tool-exposure time

My original argument was about me trying to GET a job. What do I care about training when companies won't hire me based on a lack of experience?

Plus, if companies are training their employees, it only makes it more difficult for me to compete with them for a job. How can I compete with people getting free, on-the-job, paid training?!

Re:The Catch-22 of Educational Piracy

[swb]

You missed the point. The reason you can't get a job is lack of experience. I'd wager that about half that "experience" isn't "experience doing the job" but the ability to use the tools.

And you don't have to compete with people getting free, on-the-job training -- be one of them getting the training!

Re:The Catch-22 of Educational Piracy

[hendridm]

> The reason you can't get a job is lack of experience.

Agreed, which is exactly what I said in my post.

I'd wager that about half that "experience" isn't "experience doing the job" but the ability to use the tools.

Also true. But HOW THE HELL AM I SUPPOSED TO GET ON-THE-JOB EXPERIENCE IF THEY WON'T HIRE ME?!

> And you don't have to compete with people getting free, on-the-job training -- be one of them getting the training!

Did you read any of my original posts?! The problem is that I CAN'T get a job, even ones I am perfectly qualified for (I just got 3 more rejections today). How the fuck am I supposed to get this training?

Re:The Catch-22 of Educational Piracy

[swb]

Did you read any of my original posts?! The problem is that I CAN'T get a job, even ones I am perfectly qualified for (I just got 3 more rejections today). How the fuck am I supposed to get this training?

OF COURSE you have to get hired to get training in this scenerio! Not getting hired prevents you from getting the training (barring self-paid training), but the idea is that when you don't get hired it's NOT because you don't know the tool it's because there were others more suited for the job (aptitude, attitude, etc etc).

The idea is that a business looking to have someone perform an entry-level task with a specialized tool will provide the training on the job for the tool; ie, aptitude for the tool not direct experience with it becomes important. Business makes an investment in their personnel, guaranteeing themselves a person who really can use the tool. New employees then expend less energy learning the tool for real and more time learning work processes and the rest of the "job".

My original point, which seems to have been lost, is that entry-level employees CHEAT THEMSELVES by pirating applications. It only encourages businesses to hire only people with experience with expensive software tools and to NOT provide training or hire people with no or very limited experience.

This also cheats businesses because people who pirate expensive, complex packages often exaggerate their limited skills and experience, resulting in ineffective ad-hoc on the job training, high levels of employee churn and an unproductive workplace.

And vice versa.

[Dthoma]

"It's not just the function of the software that matters. A lot of schools would use Open Source software, if it weren't for a little thing called mind share. Most of the companies out there are going to use Windows/Office, and the role of the educational system is just that: to educate.

If Little Jimmy learns how to use Star Office or AbiWord in school, how is that going to help him when he goes to work for a company that requires him to use MS Office? They serve the same purpose, but the differences are very important conceptually."

It's not just the function of the software that matters. A lot of schools would use Microsoft software (instead of third party "RM Nimbus" shit), if it weren't for a little thing called market share. Most of the technical companies out there are going to use Linux, and the role of the educational system is just that: to educate.

If Little Jimmy learns how to use MS Office or MSWord in school, how is that going to help him when he goes to work for an ISP that requires him to use Linux, Open Office and/or vi? They serve the same purpose, but the differences are very important conceptually.

In what way is this a troll?

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't a troll; MJ is making a valid point about how ridiculous this appears when compared to other scenarios.

Re:thievery is what I call it (OT question)

[Anonymous Coward]

I assume you're not a bumiputra - what sort of arrangements for university education are there for bumiputra types?

Free now, pay later

[FuzzzyLogik]

I've seen a few people say that they bought software after they learned to use a pirated copy. I wish more companies could embrace this concept. They gain a new user who will use their software, unless it changes in such a drastic way that its no longer useful, for allowing someone to learn it for free on their own time. Over time, this seems like it could make that company more money, since now you have someone else who once able to afford the software will likely buy atleast one copy of it.

I don't think it should be legal for SCHOOLS to pirate software, but i do believe that "copying" the software should be, microsoft has all this wonderful jazz about not being able to copy the software. Well, say you have 400 computers, i don't want to have to install it on 1 computer at a time for 400 computers. This seems stupid to me and places where multiple copies will benefit it should be allowed, as long as they have 400 licenses. It isn't going to hurt microsoft any to let a place of learning to copy a couple cd's to ease installation, it would at least give the school a reason to stay with MS for allowing them to actually do something that would HELP them instead of HINDER them. This goes for all companies that have this type of clause in their EULA.

Also just to bring it up, most college students (myself included) can't afford even the "acedemic" pricing of certain applications. It still adds up really fast when you have to buy multiple applications that you really want to learn to use. $200 for Office XP, for me, that's two thirds the cost of a semesters worth of books. If i could, i'd certainly buy these applications, i write software, i know its difficult, but in order to get people to use your software, you MUST provide a way for them to learn it without blowing lots of cash to find out, 'oops this isn't what i thought it was going to be.'

Alias Wavefront is doing things the right way, FULL copy of Maya, all it does is throw in a different type of saving mechanism and a watermark in all the final renders. But it lets you learn to use the application as intended, buy the full application when you can to work on commercial or personal things.

Re:Free now, pay later

[FuzzzyLogik]

I should think about this more than i do before posting a reply to my own post every time. This ties in with the open source books (if you remember the python book post yesterday). If you were Borland or Microsoft, wouldn't it be beneficial to you in the long run to educate people and make them familiar with your products? Release free books to students interested in your products. The more people using your product (this is how microsoft makes their money, they do have a monopoly after all) the more money you make. By educating them with your product, there will be more people using your product and you sell more product. It doesn't even have to be a real quality book, paperback or PDF with print well enough to read on paper that isn't incredibly good, just make it readable and of enough quality to make it last the time the student will need it.

Logik

Re:Free now, pay later

[Anonymous Coward]

normally if you have more then 5 pcs that need an OS (typicall MS), they use a top secret hidden super "l33t" program called ..... (drum roll) GHOST, by the fine folks at symantec. Why install on each pc one at atime? Just installed it once, and mirror it to all the same 400 pcs. And since most schools buy in bulk, at least 100 of those PCs should be the exact same.

Piracy at US 3D/Art Schools

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you think people learn high-end 3D apps? I'm not saying the schools themselves use pirated software--although I've known some that do for extra seats--but every single aspiring student has a cracked copy at home.

This is fair, imo, because it allows students to enter a market priced far above their means. I would imagine the same would be true for any 3rd-world country, where entering [i]any[/i] high-tech market is beyond their means.

A matter of public policy and license

[tlambert]

It's a matter of public policy for govenments to decide what intellectual property protections they want to provide in their nations.

In the U.S., public policy on Copyright is embodied in U.S.C. Title 18, and derives from Article I Section 8:

"To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries"

The idea of piracy is peculiar, in that it assumes that the Right in question is inalienable, rather than legislatively granted by the state. Further, it derives from the concept of individual ownership, and depends from that on a right to license use.

-

The apparent public policy in Malaysia seems to achieve the goal of promoting the Progress of Science and the useful Arts, without securing *exclusive Right*, but rather by securing *some* rights.

In fact, this is *not* beneficial to the Open Source Software movement, as such.

By ensuring that schools *and social organizations* are permitted to use the software for educational purposes, they will have established an egalatarian secondary market, where price of the software is no longer a factor. In this market, the *most fit* software wins... not the *least cost*.

One of the consequences of this must be that use of Open Source Software in such situations will decline: for all the vaunted peer review and quality, it's usability that wins in this or any market.

Familiarity will also breed commercial piracy (an area where the title "piracy" is still applicable, accoding to the article), particularly in the middle margins between educational institutions and large companies (e.g. small business started by recently graduated students).

All in all, this looks to be bad for Open Source Software advocacy, and bad for commercial software comapnies.

But good for Malaysia.

And that is the purpose of public policy in Malaysia, isn't it?

-- Terry

Some people can't get it through their thick heads

[Anonymous Coward]

...that the twisted capitalistic logic which says that because you're rich and powerful and the police and government are your friends you have a right to prevent people from making copies of something, is simply not generally accepted in the world?

The Malaysian minister is probably corrupted by his position of power and his government's ties to the west and the rest of the usual reasons, so he's being hesitant and polite to an extreme... but I'm sure the Malaysian students will tell you - yes, you, the copyright holder - that you can keep those pipe dreams about your imaginary 'right to make lots of money off of stuff' to yourself.

OK, then.

[Dthoma]

Right, let's say that companies only have the resources to go after either "educational pirates" (people who pirate software so they can learn how to use it) or "vending pirates" (people who pirate software so they can sell it to others for cash). Which would it be better for them to go after?

Vending pirates take the software for free, and then sell it to others at a reduced price. Result? The company loses X potential customers, thus reducting its revenues.

Educational pirates take the software for free, but keep it to themselves just so they can learn how to use it. They wouldn't buy it anyway, but when they get a regular/greater source of income, they may purchase a legitimate copy of the software to make up for it. Result? The company will lose 1 potential customer in the short term but probably gain a customer in the long term, thus increasing its revenues a little.

Who would YOU go after?

Re:OK, then.

[Com2Kid]

Educational pirates take the software for free, but keep it to themselves just so they can learn how to use it. They wouldn't buy it anyway, but when they get a regular/greater source of income, they may purchase a legitimate copy of the software to make up for it. Result? The company will lose 1 potential customer in the short term but probably gain a customer in the long term, thus increasing its revenues a little.



*raises hand* I fall into that catagory, I do not know how great an assload of money companies have made from me because I pirated their software early on and bought it later.

And encouraged my friends to buy it.

And other people online to buy it.

Hell I am damn nearly viral in nature. :-D

I don't believe you

[browser_war_pow]

WinXP is $100 for the upgrade for Pro here at JMU, VS.NET is $100 and Office XP Standard is $150 with pro being $200.

Re:I don't believe you

[Uberminky]

Believe it. I go to Indiana University, and that's precisely how it is. I'm no expert on the exact details of the arrangement, but IU has a "special relationship" with Microsoft, allowing the students to purchase the software for roughly cost ($5), or you can download (all? most, certainly) of the same software for free from the school's secure servers. However, you won't find these deals with other companies. Most companies offer educational discounts, but it's not of the same level. In a Java class I had a couple of years ago, they had boxes and boxes of J++ that they would hand out to anyone that wanted them. (Most of this "free" software, such as Office, expires after one year.) Photoshop? Nope. OS X? Nope, same deal. Anyway, everybody around here pretty much understands that IU sold their soul to the devil to get it this way. They give us money and "software donations", we indoctrinate our future leaders and hook them on the dirty crack that is Microsoft. Or something like that.

IP infringement is not theft

[DABANSHEE]

That's why on the majority of the planet, patents, trademarks & copyright comes under the civil court.

& Criminal legislation in regard to IP in the remaining countries is relatively new, since about 25 years ago.

Say with trademarks, until then you could sell fake fashion label stuff (fake Adidas Romes in the 70's) quite legally as far as the crimes act was concerned. Although Adidas could sue you for trademark infringement in the civil court. Plus the police could prosecute you for fraud if you did not inform your customers that the shoes were fakes.

It's due to corporate lobbying, about 25 years ago, that Copyright/trademark law also entered the criminal codes in the US & later elseware.

ms rep concedes piracy helps their business ...

[madhippy]

ISTR that a senior European MS chap once went on record as admitting that allowing piracy in these sorts of instances actually benefitted them (can't quote sources ... can't remember) - people became familiar with their products which created demand for licensed version in the workplace etc.

Here's the link.

[SlashChick]

Apparently, Visual Studio .Net is 6 CDs, because it's $5 per CD.

More information.

Re:Here's the link.

[handsomepete]

Nuts, you beat me to it.

Here's the 'press release' anyways. They sure as hell didn't have that when _I_ was in college. I don't imagine I had $5 bucks then either, so I suppose it doesn't matter.

i call bullshit

[bernie shifman troll]

hey buddy you seem a little self-important yourself.. judging others as thieves without any understanding of theft itself seems a bit presumptuous, if you take my meaning. using a piece of Microsoft software, even unpaid for, does not make one a thief.

there's a world of difference between THEFT and COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT you fucking jackass

Re:i call bullshit

[Cruciform]

yeah, one's easier to get away with.
if you don't get paid for your product, you're still out the money and can't pay your staff.

Re:i call bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

but the point that most people have been stating is that you aren't actually 'out the money' in many cases, because many of these people could not afford to purchase the product anyways, and their inability to pay is what drives them to copy. Therefore no profit is being lost (in certain instances, yes large organizations or the wealthy pirating software is still inexcusable.)

There's no tangible loss, only potential gain.

[ctxspy]

In other words, software maker isn't unable to sell his software to others just because this guy stole a copy. If you stole the dodge stratus, the car dealer would have been unable to sell that product to anyone else.

With software, reproduction costs are neglegiable (sp.?) and hence he's not (in my opinion) technically 'stealing' if a) he honestly cannot afford it, and b) he isn't using it to make money. In this particular case, he used the knowledge gained by experimenting with the software to turn around and provide useful services to others, and also to repay his debt to the original software makers, via purchasing legal copies of the software.

educate YOURSELF first, moron

[bernie shifman troll]

It may be legally stealing to use pirated software

umm.. no, actually, it isn't stealing.. it's merely copyright infringement. whole 'nother matter entirely. in other news, "intellectual property" isn't actually property unless an idea can belong only to one person in the world (or licensees) at a time. it's an artificial construction, mate. think you should educate yourself, first, then enlighten these retards.

Re:educate YOURSELF first, moron

[acasto]

If your so educated, then why don't you enlighten them. It's funny how people who have no intelligent views on a situation can simply through out a technicality to try and make themselves look half-way smart.

Re:educate YOURSELF first, moron

[ceejayoz]

Stealing = misusing something that is legally someone else's
Copyright infringement = misusing something that is legally someone else's

please explain the difference? they're two terms for what are essentially the same thing

Re:educate YOURSELF first, moron

[Catbeller]

"Stealing = misusing something that is legally someone else's "

No...

Stealing = taking away something that is legally someone elses, DEPRIVING THAT PERSON OF THE USE OF THEIR PROPRTY.

You can't steal an idea, or steal fire, or steal a song. You can use it, extend it, or sing it.

But you've deprived no one of property. It wasn't stolen. You are using a loaded word to semantically equate a non-harmful act with a harmful one -- a rhetorical game that works in America, sadly, since we use logic, but not reason.

Re:educate YOURSELF first, moron

[ceejayoz]

Stealing = taking away something that is legally someone elses, DEPRIVING THAT PERSON OF THE USE OF THEIR PROPRTY

Which is misusing their property - using it as the owners did not intend their property to be used. Pirating software is stealing, like it or not, and it's not harmless. It's not harmless because companies spend lots of money and development time on trying to make it harder to warez - thus increasing the costs for people like me who actually pay for the software.

Re:educate YOURSELF first, moron

[bernie shifman troll]

'pirated' software is not stolen software. it is simply commercial software that has been shared. intellectual 'property' is not property. there is no theft. copyright infringement is only a crime because of laws enacted at the behest of corporate behemoths like Disney, and is NOT a crime in many parts of the world. the USSA is *not* the heart of the earth, nor are her laws morally correct in all cases. you are a fool for believing in the american system.

Re:educate YOURSELF first, moron

[An Onerous Coward]

" thus increasing the costs for people like me who actually pay for the software."

I've got a lot of concerns about the effects of piracy, but one thing it doesn't do is raise prices for consumers of the legitimate software.

Consider this: Software vendors, even if they're selling the only comparable product on the market, are still forced into competition. Their competitor? Their own illegally pirated product. In order to stay competitive, they have to keep their prices low.

I think that piracy is generally unethical. Also, it hurts the open source movement. For example, if nobody could pirate Adobe Photoshop easily, you can be sure that the interest in Gimp would skyrocket. As it stands now, who cares? They're both free, and Adobe is better known and more featureful.

Re:educate YOURSELF first, moron

[ceejayoz]

Your point is invalid - prices aren't going to drop because of a free pirated version - unless you pay people to use the software, the people pirating it are going to pirate it regardless of whether the legal product gets a 90% price chop or not.

Re:educate YOURSELF first, moron

[Anonymous Coward]

wrong , partially. There will always be pirates (probably) but the number will depend on the cost of what's being pirated.

99% of my software is legit, but in the past I have 'pirated' software. for 1 of 2 reasons. it was to expensive to buy or I wanted to know what it was liked before buying. ( of course once you have copied you don't need to buy ).

I prefer to own legit stuff , but if the publisher puts it beyond my means then piracy becomes the only means to get it. Of course to the publisher I am pirate and a lost sale nothwithstanding the fact that i was never going to buy at their price - in fact it was them who lost the sale by their pricing. Neither do i distribute the few things i copied , so again i have not caused any subsequent loss of sale.

Although i have probably broken some laws I have not 'stolen' , as i have not deprived the publisher/copyright owner of their property, and on practical point I haven't deprived them of any revenue either.

Re:educate YOURSELF first, moron

[Anonymous Coward]

sorry but you have. for every pirated version out there they have to spend more and more time on anti piracy measures. if you dont want to buy it -- dont. but dont pirate it and think its ok. its not. its the same as photocopying a book. sure you havent stolen it, you just copied it. but that means teh author has just lost one copy and cant sell it to you ever. which means his royalties are less and that means he is less likely to produce another book.

Re:educate YOURSELF first, moron

[Anonymous Coward]

just because both can be described as misuse doesn't make them the same. it's misuse of a gun to kill someone, but that doesn't mean murder = copyright infringement. just because they both = wrong doesn't mean they equal each other

Re:thievery is what I call it (OT question)

[SteelX]

Wow, now that's a term I didn't expect to ever see on Slashdot! :)

No I'm not a bumiputra. Here's what I know. Bumiputras get preference when they enrol for local Malaysian universities. It's much easier for them to get scholarships and admittance to a local university, compared to a non-bumiputra -- even if their SPM grades (SPM = SAT-equivalent) are lower than non-bumiputras. And they have this "quota" policy. Like there can be only a certain amount of non-bumis enrolled in any local university. That pretty much destroys the chances of non-bumis getting in, especially the poorer ones, no matter how smart they are. It's really a shame.

I'm not sure if bumis get a free education or not. The reason I don't know is because non-bumis generally do not even consider getting into local universities, because of discriminatory policies. Even if they get admitted, they've got to work their asses off just to graduate. The result is very few non-bumis actually attend local universities.

I do know that bumis get a whole ton of government benefits, and a whole bunch of them do get government sponsorship to overseas universities like those in the States. All this while the non-bumis bust their asses just to get a decent education.

Yeah this whole nonsensical policy is from the '60s, when they were trying to get the bumis to catch up with the non-bumis. It was supposed to be removed when the bumis finally catch up with the non-bumis.. well it's 2002 now and it's still going on. They can't take it off because the bumis have become too dependent on it.. and they can't live without it. Any politician who suggests removing the policy gets a whole lot of opposition from bumis.

Well that's how I understand it. I think I got the gist of it, but some of the things I say may not be entirely accurate.. because I don't really follow the politics at home. I'm just darn sick and tired of it.

What a lame concept!

[frovingslosh]

Piracy is OK if it's done by a school! How lame. And the first response I saw was someone saying indeed it was OK because he had done it !

What crap! I understand that many people don't like Microsoft and are glad to screw them, but as a legal principal this makes no sense at all. What if you are a small company making educational software? How would you feel to suddenly hear governments discuss that maybe it was perfectly OK for your customers to steal your product?

Here's a more reasonable solution: Catch a big monopoly misusing their monopoly in the market with abuses that are clearly illegal, prove it in a trial, and rather than letting the monopoly choose their own punishment or threaten to break them into two monopolies, nationalize the bastards! Then you could give that software to any schools you want and still not muck with the copyright laws. The income could be used to lower taxes, and the extra layers of government mismanagement would help ensure that the smaller companies could compete!

Re:What a lame concept!

[Keith_Beef]

If your were'nt wearing trousers, and sat on your fat arse, your voice would be muffled........

That's a dangerous question...

[guttentag]

is learning more important than copyright enforcement?

It depends on what lessons you're trying to teach. If you want to teach students how to use the software, then learning is more important. If you want to teach students how to be good consumers, copyright is more important.

But if copyright enforcement is more important than learning, isn't the act of learning piracy in itself? Lets say you read a book and learn the concepts it's addressing. By learning, you are copying the information to your brain, and you are capable of further infringing the owner's copyright by discussing the book with people who haven't read it.

Fair use? Nah that's just a liberal attempt to legalize piracy, like marijuana, for "educational" or "medicinal" purposes.

Suggesting the possibility that learning might be more important than copyright enforcement also leaves open the possibility that copyright enforcement may be more important than learning. And if you're still thinking about this tomorrow, I'm going to sick my lawyers on you for infringing my implied copyright.

If you don't allow it, you loose a possible market

[Wouter Van Hemel]

In my (left) opinion, ofcourse it's ok to use pirated software if (1) you can't afford it, but really need it - otherwise, you're in a circle you can never get out: no money, no software, no skills, no hightech-industry, no progress, no money; and (2) why would I pay the ridiculously high fees of most software packages (not only the Redmond rip-off) _before_ I use it? I'm not gonna spend $500 on some graphics suite without at least trying the software for some months. I like it, I buy it; otherwise I delete it. How can they expect us to pay these high prices, without being able to test it? I never pay before I receive the service, surely not when it's that high for something that in reality is just a $1 digital copy.

Same goes for music - how can you buy a cd without knowing you like it? Who has the money to gamble on it with the current price?

Furthermore, I play music, and I've been thinking... Imagine I make a cd. Some people will buy it (hopefully ;) ), some will copy it, and some will just not care about it. The group that copies it, must have a reason: most likely, they can't afford to buy it, or maybe they don't think it's that good they will spend $20 on it - which is actually the same as not really having money.

Do I mind that those people enjoy my music? Not at all. I actually would prefer that people copy it if they can't afford it, and enjoy what I made. For free. How can I mind? If I don't allow those people to listen to my music, nobody gets anything out of it. If you really don't want or can't pay it, and like it, please, by all means, copy it. Give me at least the pleasure to know that someone likes what I do.

This is what I do too. I am a student. I download songs. The cds I really like, I have on a list. When I have money, I will pay for the cds. If I wouldn't download it, I wouldn't know it, and I would never buy it. And even if I wouldn't pay for it, maybe I pass it on to someone who does, or maybe I check out a concert of the band. Why do you make music? Only for the money?...

But, ofcourse, I am kinda leftish. :)

Now, this counts as much for software (I just can't explain as good as with music, because I don't really write software). You can't go to the shop and ask for something you don't know, or didn't try. So, you must try the product first. Learn it. Use it. Only then you can express your appreciation. Especially with this ridiculously high prices some programs have.

When these students graduate, they'll make money. And pay. Possibly even recommend your product. Look ahead, see it as an investment. If I would be Micro$oft, I'd give all my software away for free (except hard costs like packing and shipping) to development countries. It won't cost me a thing, because that software is made already, I don't have to do anything about it; and it's not like they will buy it anyway. That's where there's possible market growth, not in the US or Europe, those markets are pretty satisfied (that's probably why Micro$oft raises the price).

If they don't allow this 'pirating' to happen (mind, they don't really loose anything at all), free software or local companies will take the market when those countries come 'round (let's hope they do), and you've lost one of the only markets where you can still get rid of your products.

Well, at least that's my view. I wouldn't mind at all if open source philosophy in software, music etc will take over though.

Here's to rights back to consumer.

OK to pirate?

[the eric conspiracy]

Well, maybe, as a soveriegn nation has a wide responsibility to it's citizens.

BUT this is only a reasonable choice if all other avenues are exhausted, i.e. use of free software, approaching vendors for licenses that fit the particular circumstances, etc.

If Malaysia acts totally irresponsibly in this matter, what software company is going to export to Malaysia?

Re:OK to pirate?

[jotaeleemeese]

That is in your opinion.

What is reasonable is decided by policy makers, and they should not have the interests of foreign company as the overwhelming constrain to pursue a policy.

Re:OK to pirate?

[Anonymous Coward]

jotaeleemeese,
You got the issue wrongly, policy makers should use their brains before opening their mouth.

thanks

Improving future (was:Self-importance)

[Wouter Van Hemel]

(1) software is like fire. You can copy without really 'loosing'. I don't really agree with the term 'stealing', because they don't really 'loose'. You wouldn't have bought it anyway, because you can't afford it.

(2) so, by committing this 'soft crime' (which it even isn't, in my opinion), you greatly enhance the future of yourself, your family, your country, your economy, _if_ you use it for your own _intellectual_ benefit, that is. And by improving these things, this will have indirectly and even directly a beneficial influence on those companies, because both the demand for their product, as well as the money that can be spend on that product, will rise.

Re:Improving future (was:Self-importance)

[kmweber]

They lose--you're using something without paying for it. Besides, NO ONE has a right to a future (or anything else, including a living) at another's expense. Need is not a valid claim.

Re:Improving future (was:Self-importance)

[Wouter Van Hemel]

That's not a 'besides'. Your argument only holds because you say it's at another's expense. And that's exactly what I don't agree with.

Need is a valid claim, if it's _not_ at someone's expense. Or, if the profit is much larger than the loss; imagine, your gf gets stabbed, and needs to get to a hospital ASAP. There's nobody around. Would you 'steal' a car? I hope you would...

And would I (as owner of that car) mind, knowing I (my car) possibly saved someone's life? I didn't need the car, and I didn't loose anything, when the car's returned. This leaves me with a _positive_ feeling, and no personal loss.

It's a bit overdone, but you see my point.

So. If I can't afford let's say windows, because it's too expensive and I'm a poor student (really poor, not just spent all money on going out). I make a copy from a friend. Micro$oft didn't loose _anything at all_, I couldn't have bought it anyway.

But, ofcourse I have the moral obligation to pay for it when I can (within reason); otherwise, it indeed would be stealing.

That's my opinion, humanistic, left, anti-capitalistic, whatever you want to call it; you don't have to agree with it, ofcourse. I respect your strict, honest views, but some things are more important (and beneficial to all) than adhering to rules.

I would even say, the only reason there is a need for rules and laws, is because sometimes people's morals suck.

Re:Improving future (was:Self-importance)

[Random Feature]

"And would I (as owner of that car) mind, knowing I (my car) possibly saved someone's life? I didn't need the car, and I didn't loose anything, when the car's returned. This leaves me with a _positive_ feeling, and no personal loss."

So do you return the software when you are finished?

There is no comparison between stealing a car in a life threatening situation and stealing software. That's about the lamest analogy I've ever heard.

There is never an excuse to steal. Period. Justifying and rationalizing it because you claim it fulfils a *need* of yours is just egocentric and self-serving.

You don't *need* the software. You *want* the software. I agree that there is not necessarily a monetary loss involved in illegally copying software.

No 15 year old *needs* PhotoShop. No 15 year old *needs* MS Office. They want. And taking what one wants without regard for the law is called - gasp - theft.

If you want to protest the current state of the industry through theft, fine. But call a spade a spade and be prepared to pay the piper when he comes calling. Stop attempting - poorly - to justify your illegal actions through some amoral viewpoint you hold. Your morals and mine are irrelevant. It's the law.

If you don't like the law. Change it.

Re:Improving future (was:Self-importance)

[plague3106]

What have they lost if you wouldn't have paid for it to begin with? How does something that can be copied for insignificate cost equate to a sizable loss?

Need is never a valid claim? Not even if someone is stealing to feed their family? Thats not the case here, but you paint with a broad stroke.

Re:Improving future (was:Self-importance)

[Grax]

No 15 year old can afford PhotoShop. No 15 year old can afford MS Office. Yet if they want a computer art job or an office job they'll need to know how to use those programs.

I have a hard time calling them thieves for not being financially successful enough to get that knowledge while remaining within the confines of the copyright laws the corporations purchased.

"If you don't like the law. Change it." I'm working on it. We'll see how I do.

Re:Improving future (was:Self-importance)

[Aliks]

Call it what it is please.

It's not theft. Period.

It may be something illegal, but its not theft. Best guess is that it's infringement of copyright, depending on the laws in that country. In any event it is in a different category to theft which I think is defined as

"Taking with intent to permanently deprive"

Bracketing copyright infringement with plain ordinary theft encourages people to scoff at all laws.

Re:Improving future (was:Self-importance)

[Wouter Van Hemel]

There really is an analogy. You explain it by a 15 year old copying programs and games in fat-ass America; I was talking about countries struggling economically, where bad recessions cause the lives of many, and hunger is a real thread.

Those countries are behind in every way, and rather than improving, this is getting worse because of the fast pace of technological development. You can't expect them to pay full-price: they can't. So, either they live by your 'morals', and the laws of a nation of people who are _over_fed, and suffer, possibly die, for who knows how long, -or- they soften the rights of billion-dollar corporations, and hope the future will be more bright. Which it will be, when they get a chance.

Your viewing point is not aimed at the situation I refered to, or, your are being very egoistic. You talk about a 15-year old with a fast line and a p-t-p client. I talk about a part of the world trying to survive by making a future.

Ofcourse someone who's hungry has different morals than you. Try to see the situation through the eyes of someone who is suffering, instead of waving your finger in a godlike no-no movement, locked in your own closed mind.

Money is plentiful !

[Taco Cowboy]

You sez:
" ... and your schools honestly do not have the money to pay for it..."

Alas, someone who never set foot on Malaysia has the impression that Malaysia's schools has no money.

On the contrary, the money for the schools are PLENTIFUL ! Just last week, there was a new "bill" authorizing RM 5 Billion (almost 1.3 Billion) for the schools' computer project alone.

And there were, and will be, lots of other "Billion RM bills" for the schools.

The only problem in Malaysia is, the money were squandered by the officials - in other word, massive and rampant corruptions.

If there's no corruption in Malaysia, there is NO NEED for any "Piracy is Okay for Educational Purpose" thing.

I hope the BSA in Malaysia will spearhead the anti-corruption move now, that one of Malaysia's cabinet member has given his go-ahead for software piracy.

Re:Money is plentiful !

[Corvaith]

You will note that there was an 'if' statement in front of that. I really don't know anything about the state of Malaysia's schools--but I think this applies to *any* school system, anywhere, if they lack the funding to properly educate their students.

Copyright infringement vs stealing

[nivedita]

I see this comment a lot on /., and I was just wondering what happens if you try to lift a retail box from a store? Can you argue that you only stole a buck of merchandise, and the rest is copyright infringement, except it didn't happen because they caught you when you were trying to walk out the door?

Re:Copyright infringement vs stealing

[BollocksToThis]

Stealing a physical product is what makes it stealing. Taking a copy of data that you are not licensed to copy is copyright infringement. It's really very simple.

If I walk into a software store, grab a box and run away, I have committed theft. I have stolen physical property that the store owner can no longer sell, and has likely paid for. He has lost his investment in the software.

However, if I walk into a store and make a duplicate of an original CD, put the original back in the box, and walk away with my copy, I have NOT deprived anyone of any physical property. The store owner still has what he paid for, he can still sell it, and the data has not been degraded in any way by the duplication.

This is why the two crimes are separate. One affects the store owner directly, and one affects the copyright holder indirectly, with varying degrees of harm.

Duh...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, Unis do pay for the software in the US now, but good god. I learned most of what I know about computer software using pirated software. I still happily pirate software. If an app is truely great and I use it every day I buy it but if not I am happy with the pirated version. Why? Cause if it sucks I cant return it. If it doesnt work I cant return it. Piracy is good. Now bare in mind this is for my home network. I dont do buisness on my home network. When im in a corperate office I do make them buy the software. I view my home piracy as education for the corperate world. I pirate and learn, then recommend to the company who buys the software, usually many copies. Now who am I hurting?

Piracy is what has driven the pc software industry to where it is now. A decent place. Without it most of these half assed software companies wouldnt have sold a single copy. It supports the industry, not the other way around. This is not to say that selling copies of software is something I support. I dont agree with this. But thats not what the original pirates were about. They were about trading to learn because they can afford 200 bucks to try an application. At least in the old days if it sucked you could take it back.

I will continue to pirate software until the day I die. Ill buy the good stuff, but if its not golden Im not paying for it. Deal with it. I feel justified and you cant convice me otherwise.

This just makes the problem worse.

[no_choice]

The failure of governments to enforce proprietary software usage restrictions in schools actually helps proprietary software makers and hurts the Free Software movement.

The schools train their students in the use of proprietary software, increasing the supply of workers skilled in the use of such software. This creates (or increases) market pressure for companies to purchase such software. Why should companies go to the trouble of training someone to use Open Office, for example, if a ready supply of people trained in the publicly-subsidized schools to use proprietary products is available?

In effect, the taxpayers of Malaysia (and most other countries) are providing massive subsidies to the proprietary software firms. The taxpayers pay for the hardware, the buildings and the instructors to train workers in the use of proprietary, closed source products.

If, on the other hand, the publicly-funded schools taught their students the use of Free Software, those skilled students would create (or increase) the demand for the use of such software throughout society. This would be a boon to the economy overall (particularly in developing countries), since it would reduce the need for firms to spend large amounts of money on proprietary software. It would also greatly strengthen Free Software overall by increasing the supply of people qualified to work with and contribute to the movement, leading to more and better software.

It would also, in my opinion, lead to a better educated population of citizens able to think for themselves.

A truly wise education policy would be the exact reverse of what Minister Yassin has proposed. Rather than encourage the use of proprietary software, legally or illegally, he should encourage the use of Free Software wherever it is feasible.

Simple choices.

[supabeast!]

1- Send money out of the country's economy buying software for students.

2- Rip off foreign software companies, spend more money on the education itself and not the software, allowing a better workforce capable of competing with external firms to develop.

Yeah, that decision is really a hard one.

why it works out

[rattler14]

well, i'm not saying piracy is ok, but in the end, it can work out for certain software companies.

How
Kid in college (me) gets a pirated version of photoshop, learns it really well, thinks it's cool, changes majors, then pursues a career in graphics design. Adobe, thus gets a lifetimes worth of sales as I then purchase or have my company purchase adobe productos for my work.

So, adobe loses the battle, but wins the war

now for games, that's another story, but that is not educational software anyway

Immature and irresponsible

[salimma]

Surely this is a major set-back for Malaysia's standing on IP issues; Malaysia as a member of WTO should not blatantly declare their willingness to tolerate software piracy.

The fact that this deputy minister is the Youth Chief for the ruling party is rather disturbing - it implies that this probably has the support of many people in high places.

Surely a more appropriate, morally defensible, politically acceptable and strategic decision would be to promote the use of open source and public domain solutions? Even the French and Germans are doing it, and they definitely can afford the price tag of commercial software.

Appaled,

Michel Salim

Re:Some people can't get it through their thick he

[puckhead]

snip ... that you can keep those pipe dreams about your imaginary 'right to make lots of money off of stuff' to yourself.

A society does not need to choose capitalism. They can choose poverty.

well this is a pretty dumb thing to say

[arielb]

Now, anyone who tries to sell software in Malaysia is a FOOL now that this idiot declared a green light on piracy. Looks like Malaysians will have to accept half baked open source apps and games (oh forget those games completely!) because of this idiot's stupid remarks

Of course there's a benefit...

[Anonymous Coward]

While in school, I had to pirate software. I simply could not afford it, but I needed to learn it, so I bit the bullet and did it. Once I was out and working in the market, I made it a point to buy the full versions of all the software I use on a regular basis, and I'm religious about it.

I benefitted by having the software on-hand to learn with, and since I became so familiar with it, and needed it for my career, I became a repeat customer of the products. Had I not done this in the first place, I'd be slinging fries (hey, my degree is in English) and Adobe, Macromedia, etc., would be out a paying customer. It became a win-win situation.

Over there maybe.

[Anonymous Coward]

But not here. Yes, it all makes perfect sense (even though it is illegal), but it also encourages dependency on crap commercial gloop like MS pours out of Redmond. Here, schools should have to pay through the nose for MS crap, and Adobe, and whatever other evil they want to encourage students to be good little mindless consumers of.

$5? not quite

[doubtless]

The original poster quoted $5 to pick up Windows XP from a university but failed to state that the institution has already paid Microsoft a big license fee, granted it is at a discounted price. The license fee is ultimately paid by the students through tuition fee.

This is all well and great for students who choose to use Microsoft products, but there is no opt-out, you have to pay that percentage through tuition even if you do not use it. It's bad for OSS uses, and even worse for students who doesn't own a computer.

Re:$5? not quite

[tealover]

This is all well and great for students who choose to use Microsoft products, but there is no opt-out, you have to pay that percentage through tuition even if you do not use it

That reminds me of a married co-worker who didn't have children who complained that his taxes were going to education (schools and teachers salaries) when he was obviously not going to benefit.

You are not an island unto yourself. When you live in society, or attend a university, you allow other people to make decisions on how your dollars are spent. This is not an a al carte society where you dictate where your money goes. Society does not work that way. Nothing would ever get done.

As a member of that society, you evaluate whether the community *as a whole* offers what you need and whether that outweighs any particular issues you have. If it doesn't, you have the choice to leave that community.

If you want complete control, find a small island and castaway.

Re:$5? not quite

[cygnusx]

Excellent point. A lot of the people here are CS/EE folk, who would much rather use Linux. Funnily enough, many (though not all, in case anyone is ready with a counterexample) of their brethren in the arts and humanities department would be happy enough using Windows. I imagine these people would be very happy that IU has this deal in place.

Exchange rates, economics, etc.

[Napalmstrike]

Mind I note that foreign countries have it harder than we do? I have friends from malaysia, so I can tell you right now that the exchange rate from USD to Malaysian Ringgits is about 1:4. That and their per capita income is lower. Maybe paying $100 for Software X is fine with you, but they simply can't afford it.

My other point is that, if they're poorer, why should they be subject to less decent education than we are? Isn't that why we have PUBLIC EDUCATION here in the United States? So that the children of the poor (particularly immigrants) actually have a shot at rising through the ranks? Why should only the rich have these opportunities? Tell me otherwise, and frankly, you have simply made an enemy of the poor. Why the hell should they respect your "ethical standards" then? Now if instead, you give me some crock answer involving "they're not Americans," well frankly, then why should they respect us either? Oh yea, and what happened to all this bullshit about the US being a compassionate Christian country? Last time I checked, Christ was just a tad bit more generous than this.

All in all, I think what they're doing is such a good idea that we ought to do it here.

Re:Exchange rates, economics, etc.

[Anonymous Coward]

well fuck those stupid malaysian chinks. we're american, we're better than those rice eating gooks.

Re:Exchange rates, economics, etc.

[orkysoft]

The exchange rate doesn't matter as long as it's stable.

E.g. compare two countries of comparable wealth, but with a different currency. Say, currencies A and B.

Say, one unit of currency A is worth two units of currency B. Does that matter?

No. People in the country with currency B will earn about twice as many currency units and spend about twice as many units, so ultimately, there is no big difference.

Re:Exchange rates, economics, etc.

[jcarley]

Perhaps this is what you are taught in university, but in the real world, of course it matters.

Firstly, Malaysia and the US are not of equal wealth.

Secondly, Income levels are far lower there in spite of the 3.8 exchange rate.

Any yes, this is with a fixed exchange rate to the US$.

Re:Exchange rates, economics, etc.

[orkysoft]

I didn't learn that at university, I learned it by living in Europe before the Euro came.

We had the Dutch Guilder, which was worth almost one German Mark (DFL 1,10 =~ 1,00 DM). The Belgian Franc was only worth DFL 0,06.

This of course means that in Belgium you paid almost 20 times as many Francs for Widget A than you paid Guilders in The Netherlands.

The problem in Malaysia is that the prices of the import software products are approximately equal to their prices in e.g. the US. Since people in Malaysia (on average) make much less money than people in the US, these software products become very expensive.

The exchange rate doesn't matter here: the problem is that money is worth a lot more in countries like Malaysia.

Re:Exchange rates, economics, etc.

[netwerk]

What an intelligent comment.

And to think, I thought Americans were racist.

Re:Exchange rates, economics, etc.

[IHateUniqueNicks]

As a Canadian, I'd have to say you are completely wrong. There are many instances in many goods and careers where the price we pay/earn in Canadian $ is the same as Americans pay/earn in American dollars.

Restaraunts are a good example, the numerical price difference in the food is nearly always very small, and sometimes (not that infrequently) the American prices are even higher (without being a higher class restaraunt).

But contrary to what you may beleive, we Canadians don't have money worth the same, or more than American money, in fact, it currently takes ~$1.50 for us to buy a single American dollar.

When you make ~$50/day working full time at minimum wage, paying the extra $5-10/meal to eat in the 'States is not something you can afford to do very often.

Similarly, there are countries which have this situation with software, and just because the Americans can afford $400US for a program, doesn't mean that other countries' citizens could even earn that amount in a month.

Re:Exchange rates, economics, etc.

[orkysoft]

But contrary to what you may beleive, we Canadians don't have money worth the same, or more than American money, in fact, it currently takes ~$1.50 for us to buy a single American dollar.

I am aware of that. I'm just saying that's not necessarily bad. The Canadian dollar is a different currency, not necessarily a worse one.

Similarly, there are countries which have this situation with software, and just because the Americans can afford $400US for a program, doesn't mean that other countries' citizens could even earn that amount in a month.

That's exactly what I was saying, yes.

Re:Exchange rates, economics, etc.

[Anonymous Coward]

that's a whole load of crap... Malaysians earn the "local" pay... and it's not a figure that is pegged to USD equivalent...

the average monthly salary of an engineer with a couple of years of experience is about RM2,500; which is about RM30,000 per annum. Divided by 4 and you get US$7.5K PER ANNUM!!!

you should be using something like 'income per capita' to compare buying power (go check out the per capita income on the CIA website)

don't get me started on how little people in Thailand earn... there are NO poor people in the US...

Re:Exchange rates, economics, etc.

[IHateUniqueNicks]

Umm, actually, you said:
"Say, one unit of currency A is worth two units of currency B. Does that matter?

No. People in the country with currency B will earn about twice as many currency units and spend about twice as many units, so ultimately, there is no big difference."

which translats to:

"one American dollar is worth 1.5 Canadian dollars. Does that matter?

No. People in Canada will earn about 1.5 times as much money and spend about 1.5 times as much, so ultimately, there is no big difference."

While in reality, we often earn and spend 1.0 times as much, making a big difference.

I'm glad you have changed your mind.

Re:Exchange rates, economics, etc.

[orkysoft]

Okay, I'll compare The Netherlands and France, pre-Euro:

Say, a litre of milk would cost about one Guilder. It would cost about three Francs in France.

Maybe the US compared to Canada happens to be different, I don't know. I haven't been to the US. In Canada, however, the converted price level was comparable to The Netherlands (i.e. something costing $1 CAN would cost about DFL 1,65 here).

Maybe things in the USA are 1.5 times as expensive compared to Canada. That would mean lots of people with lower incomes would have a lower standard of living. This could explain the "rednecks in trailer parks" phenomenon.

I'm not entirely sure whether I agree or disagree with you :-)

Re:Exchange rates, economics, etc.

[IHateUniqueNicks]

I'm not entirely sure whether I agree or disagree with you :-)

LOL, I didn't think I had expressed an opinion for you to agree/dissagree with...
I stated a fact which disproved your theory...

Multinationals - time to worry?

[hyphz]

This could be an interesting twist to the situation with the big media companies. If a country has a very small, or almost no, media industry itself and the big multinationals (like the film firms, Microsoft, etc.) start throwing their weight around, the government always has the choice to simply nix their country's copyright law, so that piracy ceases to exist there.

The multinationals lose all their power to control distribution within the country, and they can't even just deny the software to that country at all - because they can just download warez copies from other countries, that cease to be illegal the moment they cross the border of the country in question. They could try and get the country's ISP to refuse them service, but they're unlikely to accept that, especially since all those warez downloads will mean a fat payoff to the ISP for the bandwidth. The country gets a massive boost to its citizens quality of life (hey, all the fun stuff is FREE now!), and its trade gap evens out.

What would happen if some country did this? Would countries go to war over a breach of the Berne convention?

Re:Multinationals - time to worry?

[kubrick]

Would countries go to war over a breach of the Berne convention?

Hell yeah -- their owners would force them to.

Re:Multinationals - time to worry?

[netwerk]

Well, Malaysia and Indonesia have always had a massive piracy "problem" anyway. So what the government has announced really doesn't change anything at all.

Open Source/Free Software instead piracy...

[borgheron]

Someone should try to convince them to use open source or free software instead of allowing them to condone piracy and give the monopolies a chance to seize the opputunity to "make it right".

GJC

Let's talk about logic, shall we?

[northstarlarry]

Are you claiming that just because you want something you are entitled to have it? I mentioned this already -- if you want the program, buy it. It's not like it is completely unavailable to you -- it just costs a lot of money. If you don't have that money to spend on the program, i.e., it isn't worth that much to you, then, yes, you have to use a different program.

If you're not using this tool for your livelihood, you cannot possibly tell me that you "need" it.
Let's use a really stupid analogy. Norm Abrams is setting up a woodshop where he plans to make furniture, which he will sell to support himself and his family. You also have a woodshop, where you also build furniture, but for your own enjoyment -- it's your hobby. Now, Norm needs a certain bare minimum of equipment if he's going to make any money at this -- things like a table saw and a drill press. Both of you have some basic equipment, a circular saw and a hand drill and such, and about the same amount of money. Norm takes out a loan from his bank to finance the opening of his shop, and upgrades all his tools -- he gets all sorts of nifty toys that he tells you about over a beer, and you're drooling.

You rush home to your spouse and tell her/him that you want to take out a loan just like Norm and get all those cool power tools. He/she looks at you like you're crazy. "How are we going to afford that," he/she asks, "when you work as a bank teller?"

The next week, you drive to Woodworker's Warehouse with a U-Haul truck, break in, and take all that fancy equipment that you wanted.

"But I need it to make my armoire!" You tell the police as they drag you away.

I'm trying to point out the difference between need and want. I am well aware of the arguments about "stealing" IP as opposed to stealing actual objects. That's not the issue. The issue is, you don't have a right to have anything you want. Whether it's a book or a cucumber.

Re:Let's talk about logic, shall we?

[greenrd]

. If you don't have that money to spend on the program, i.e., it isn't worth that much to you

I think you are confused. This seems to me to be a fallacy of "subjective value" economics. Suppose I'm dirt poor and I can't afford a $1,000 piece of software. Then, I win the lottery, at which point I can afford it, but it's worth less to me. But I buy it anyway. But judging the worth of the item to me by the price I'm willing to pay suggests that I value it more after I win the lottery than before, which is false.

Re:Let's talk about logic, shall we?

[northstarlarry]

But judging the worth of the item to me by the price I'm willing to pay suggests that I value it more after I win the lottery than before, which is false.

Um, yes. Exactly. It's not worth less to you just because you can afford it.

How you spend your money is a reflection of your values -- what you consider important to your life. If Violet Beuregarde won the lottery, she would buy $1000 worth of bubble gum. If my friend Sam won the lottery, he would buy $1000 worth of upgrades for his car. My father would put it in his savings account. I would buy a whole lot of music. . .ya getting the idea?

Going back to the original discussion, if you need a piece of software (or a table saw, or a new pair of shoes) in order for you to make a living, then it will have much more value for you than for someone who likes to use Photoshop to edit family vacation photos before showing them to everybody. And you will therefore do more (i.e., spend more money, i.e., put more of your past labor into the purchase) to acquire the software.

As another example, let's take me, who lives and works in the city and has easy access to public transportation, and my coworker Rudy, who lives in the suburbs and can either take the commuter train at 7:30AM and 6:10PM or can buy a car and drive to and from work when he needs to. I'd really like to buy a car to get me around; it would be nice not to have to wait for the bus all the time, and not to have to walk from the bus stops to places I'm going, etc. But that convenience is not worth enough for me to go into debt for the next five years. Rudy, who has about the same amount of money as me, needs a car to get to work, and he can therefore justify the 20K loan from his bank. Ya dig?

I'm not really sure what "subjective value" economics are. . .can you explain or provide a link?

Visio?? Smart Draw?? Try Dia!!

[pardasaniman]

I was a fan of SmartDraw myself, then my trial expired. When I tried Linux for my first time,I was happy to learn that Mandrake came with DIa, It lacks the wizards, but gets most of everything done quite well. Try it out

Education is key to successful capitalist markets

[shed]

...so I believe this could be okay in some instances. The hard part is knowing how to define "ok" piracy vs "non-ok" piracy. This would almost certainly require a situational ethics that would be difficult to codify.

The problem, that not everyone starts on an equal playing field in a capitalist market, is well known. Certainly access to technology and other educational materials can boost the chances of an individual's future success. And certainly the poor, those who can't afford educational materials or programs, are at such a disadvantage that they may not meet their potential. When enough people aren't fully utilized or employed in a market, that market is inefficient and impaired.

On the other hand, I think this need can be addressed better with careful legislation. Possibilities include funding of non-profit programs to provide educational materials, or mandating that certain types of software can be sold to students at steep discounts.

I certainly don't think at my age and job level that I deserve access to cheap/free versions of commercial software, except maybe to evaluate them. But there are many people out there who do.

It is this thinking that hurts Open Source.

[pardasaniman]

If all these Artists who hack pirated image editing software, then they won't give open source a shot. If many artists put on their resume: Experience in GIMP (for example). Then maybe the company will get introduced to GIMP and switch over. The more companies that use GIMP, the more donations GIMP gets. Therefore, if people train in OSS instead of proprietary software, then OSS gets more power. When people pirate software they take away from OSS. Each person that uses OSS is an advocate for it in a way. Therefore everyone who uses pirated software takes away from OSS. THink about it!

Pirated software take away from Open Source

[pardasaniman]

If all these students hack pirated image editing software, then they won't give open source a shot . This is the case at my school. Nobody has heard of GIMP but everyone has Photoshop. Everyone has MSOFFICE no one know OpenOffice Let's take the example you made If many artists put on their resume: Experience in GIMP (for example). Then maybe the company will get introduced to GIMP and switch over. The more companies that use GIMP, the more donations GIMP gets. Therefore, if people train in OSS instead of proprietary software, then OSS gets more power. When people pirate software they take away from OSS. Each person that uses OSS is an advocate for it in a way. Therefore everyone who uses pirated software takes away from OSS. THink about it!

f dreamweaver in it's a-hole

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, personal pet peeve as a web professinal who has to deal with the occasional person who only knows dreamweaver. If you an only use dreamweaver, you should be fired. Which means that many of the people currently doing we work on the web should be out of a job. It's a crutch. People should be using something as complex as HomeSite, and nothing more. The shit that dreamweaver shoves into a page, it's practically criminal.

Re:f dreamweaver in it's a-hole

[Anonymous Coward]

how bout ms frontpage?

Re:f dreamweaver in it's a-hole

[Iffy Bonzoolie]

I think Dreamweaver is great for mockups by graphics designers.... keeps mockups realistic, but also keeps implementation details from bogging them down... then you hand off to a HTML producer, and they should code it from scratch... You would never want to actually use dreamweaver HTML, unless you really don't care about readability or maintainability. But that doesn't make it a useless tool. It's powers can be used for good, and not evil!

-If

Re:f dreamweaver in it's a-hole

[sfritsche]

It's worse than Dreamweaver. At least Dreamweaver can be modified to produce something close to valid XHTML code. See this page for a set of modifications to Dreamweaver that close the gap between its output and valid XHTML.

Re:Fair Use at for profit schools?

[OffTheRack]

I can see the argument when the university is non profit or state run, but how about all those (and there are many) for-profit schools? They are a business. Just ask the stockholders if they are a business if you are not sure.

Does it make any difference that in the process of making money they might also be teaching students ... on pirated software?

Self-importance indeed

[Erris]

It's not a question of better or worse, it's a question of what the Malaysion people will spend their time and energy doing. They might decide that it's counter productive to spend tax dollars enforcing copyright laws against schools, as we here in the US see fit to do. Remember the BSA slapping the LA school district for a quarter million dollars? Philidelphia for the same ammount? A country that has trouble feeding and educating it's people might think twice before spending tax money on laws, courts, inspectors and enforcers to then give tax monnies collected for schools to a foreign corporation. We here in the US might think twice about it as well.

By the way, what great propriatory software do you know of that you would replace Linux with if you could afford to? Let me assure you that money has nothing to do with my abandonment of M$ junk. Me thinks I smell a troll looking for someone to justify "stealing" or coppying M$ O$.

Training people to use M$ toys is a bad thing to do. The API, formats, and the system itself are all unstable. The time spent learning little left hand tricks would be better spent learning something real or more stable, like good comunity supported free code. The only thing worse than encouraging people to do study M$ trash is paying the M$ tax to do it.

Sorry if that sounds a little hard on Microsoft, but they broke my trust a long time ago. Far from assuring the world that they would mend their ways, they have justified their behavior and gone on to such abuses that the federal government noticed. Never deal with dishonest people. Free yourself from M$ today.

People need to learn from the TOBACCO INDUSTRY

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember buying software in college because I bought their computers and it came with all the software. That was Windows 3.1 . Then after that, it was all about copying everything from WFW 3.11 to get access to the net and webcrawler.com! and moving on to Win95 and so on.. there is no doubt even with educational pricing that piracy will happen unless it becomes insanely affordable. Then it makes more sense to get it if it came with good reference books or manuals. Of course it's worthless to get a copy of a Windows Owners Manual.

I really do not see a problem with using piracy for personal use because you're actually boosting up sales. Look at it this way.. someone gets to use Photoshop from the get go and when the person goes into a business environment, what does he purchase? Photoshop of course (and actually it may screw some people because honestly there are programs out there like Paint Shop Pro that may do what you need done but since you had the choice of getting the two programs you tend to use the better featured program).

Imagine Microsoft's horror when everyone starts using Linux in their early lives and avoid Microsoft like a plague later on in life... the tobacco industry will laugh at you for that!

Duh!

[telstar]

My friends and I have always considered piracy the "educational discount"!

i know what they'll do

[v8interceptor]

They'll brainwash a young, good looking but stupid Microsoft employee it KILL the Malaysian Prime Minister when he hears the song "Relax"!

It's all so simple...

Proprietary software without open source equivs

[sachachua]

First, no one's forcing them to use Photoshop/Quicken/Visio/Director/Office.

Second, if more people posted .txt, .rtf and .html, we wouldn't have this .doc problem.

Third, do we _really_ need all of this stuff? If you're just starting out, do you need all of the whizbang features of Photoshop? Do we really need the macro capabilities of Word documents? Some people do. Most don't.

Sometimes we use software features to cover up our own lack of skills, and that's why people feel they have to go for the biggest, most featureful pieces of software - because they don't want to face the fact that they can't hack it with tools that don't have whizbang feature #42.

Sometimes we use software to make life more convenient for us. We already know how to do those funky things, but some tools make them easier to do than others. The more people use open source programs (maybe even contributing to them!), the better open source programs can be. It's just a matter of evolving software until it does what we want. Now some people can't take that, so they'll just stay with proprietary, expensive software - a dead end as far as they're concerned - but some people have the patience to work with and improve open source software. =)

Ah, but what about companies?

Why would the industry hire some open source free-as-in-speech-_and_-beer- geek instead of someone who cut his or her teeth on pirated copies of the software that the company uses (perhaps even legitimately)?

At first glance it seems that committing to open source as students penalizes us when we get into the industry and we're expected to know how to deal with MS SQL Server and stuff like that. We'd have to learn on the job - and that's valuable time! We'd have to learn how to do Photoshop and Flash and things like that!

But it's not as simple as that. While the proprietary software pirate might be familiar with the ins and outs of the software he or she used, there aer other things to consider. The open source geek would have demonstrated resourcefulness and ethics. Maybe the open source geek would be able to help the company save more money. At the very least, the open source geek would be able to adapt to the 'far superior' closed source proprietary tools that the company uses, and upgrading from an okay tool to a great tool is easier than going from a great tool to an okay tool.

And dare I mention that no one is being forced to be a graphic designer? (Okay, maybe some people are, but...)

If we tell people that piracy is okay, what we're teaching people is that they can ignore their conscience in order to earn the kind of money they want. Yes, some software companies set ridiculous prices for their software - prices far out of a school or student's budget. Yes, some companies are downright mean. That's no excuse. Do the right thing.

You always have a choice.

Re:Proprietary software without open source equivs

[zCyl]

Second, if more people posted .txt, .rtf and .html, we wouldn't have this .doc problem.

You're forgetting that most people don't really even know what a file format IS.

Why do you think Microsoft no longer displays file extensions on files? Such things thoroughly confuse a large number of users. When you write something on paper it's not in a different "format", so formats don't fit into their paradigm of how documents should be. This is why you often find users trying to open documents in the wrong program.

Nobody really chooses .doc for its technical merits. Doc files are prevalent because it's "a word file". And even that level of understanding can be pushing it in some cases.

Talking about the virtues of formats like rtf and html won't make them prevalent. Only if they are the default format will they become prevalent.

Malaysian Piracy

[chris_sawtell]

The Shuttleworth Foundation says:-

"The Shuttleworth Foundation recognises the important contribution that Microsoft is making by providing their proprietary software free of cost to 32,000 schools in South Africa. This gesture will assist in the development of basic computer literacy skills, a challenge which has long since been overcome in first world countries."

See their page at for the full context. Remembering that the purchasing power of a US dollar in Malaysia is very different from that in the US, why can't Malaysia work out the same sort of deal with Microsoft?

Paradise for MS?!

[IkeTo]

Sh*t... that's the best place for large proprietary software house like Microsoft! Automatically every software get the "learn with no cost, but when you actually get used to it, you've got to pay" tag. This basically push people out of the free software camp...

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mod parent down

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent down, please. this post is totally irrelevant. poster deserves to get his karma burned

Learn Photoshop fer free

[Anonymous Coward]

Adobe has Photoshop 6 freely downloadable from their website. The catch is, you can't save the image to files. Since this is more than adequate for learning, there is little point in 'stealing' photoshop.

However, the bastard softawer executives should note that without piracy, software consumption today would be 1% to 10% what it actually is.

The future outcome of this statement is very bad.

[Anonymous Coward]

hi,

Using software without license is wrong, and with statements like this from Mnisters it even worse.

There already a large of shops selling pirated CD's in Malaysia and now they have found the perfect justification to continue doing it, they are selling pirated software for educational use.

Power corrupts, a idiotic minister with power is a disgrace to the nation and it's people.

thanks

it's not "piracy" it's "fair use"

[g4dget]

Copyright law makes all sorts of exceptions and allows copying under many circumstances. Furthermore, reverse engineering is OK in many countries, both for educational and commercial purposes. Those are fair use rights.

We, the people, have the right to decide what we protect under copyright and what falls under fair use.

Analogies between "intellectual property" and physical property are self-serving and legally inaccurate for the most part. People who say that "piracy is OK" have already given into the mindset. No, piracy is not OK, but copying should not and does not constitute "piracy" under many circumstances.

MOD PARENT UP!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

MOD PARENT UP!!!

Re:thievery is what I call it (OT question)

[Anonymous Coward]

hi,
I'm am a Malaysian (non-bumi) and could not have said it better, every sentence in the posting above is correct...thanks

Pirate in school only?

[LinuxInDallas]

Doesn't it stand to reason that the people who are taught it is OK to pirate when they are in school will think it is OK to pirate software when they get out of school?

Re:If you don't allow it, you loose a possible mar

[Why Should I]

Good point.

However, isn't the higher point of the conversation the fact that licensing like the GPL wouldn't cause this issue in the firstplace.

It is the licensing behind these commercial software titles that restricts learning. The GPL, therfore, in this case can be used for both sides of the argument. Since it seeks to open the use, and sharing (hence learning) of software.

Schools and Piracy

[Snover]

Aww, come on. Doesn't anyone else remember being forced to sit down and watch "Don't Copy That Floppy!" at the beginning of every year?
Now they're gonna need to send out ALL NEW tapes that are called "Don't Copy That Floppy! (unless it's for school, of course)"

no! they steal our lunch money.

[Anonymous Coward]

It makes sense for industry to pay a fortune because softwares boost company productivity and profit. Academia do not use software to make profit, therefore academia should not pay (or as much) for software like the industry does. Government funds allocated for education should be used only for students' benefit, and should not be used to lower software prices and reduce industry cost.

Chen-Yong Cher
chenyong@ecn.purdue.edu

What a way to teach the kids

[Jesus IS the Devil]

What kind of moral principle is the school teaching the students here? Students will go out into the real world and think that they can just go around screwing other people/countries/companies and steal their stuff with any excuse. Isn't that what criminals do? "Yeah the banks are too greedy and rich anyways. They won't be missing the thousands of dollars I've stolen."

It's not like there aren't free alternatives for learning now is it? And if anything the schools should be pushing the government for more funding and do things the legitimate way, as opposed to just breaking laws.

Why not?

[Anonymous Coward]

The US says that terrorists acts that kill innocent civilians are ok if the cause is just. ... its all relative.

Some thoughts

[Anonymous Coward]

1. One reason that Open Source advocates are politically ineffective is that they have no money, hence no PACs. It bears some pondering why commercial software firms have money, and what the strategy is to obtain money.

2. If Linus had taken the "copyright infringement is not piracy" attitude and copied Windows, then where would Linux have come from.

3. The historical cycle is that the barbarians eventually sack Rome or civilization. An interesting question is who will be the barbarians? And are we providing them with free software?

Thank you..

[Kwil]

..for saying what I wanted to better than I ever could.

H1B Specific skills resume advantage

[Anonymous Coward]

This issue gets more interesting when you consider targets beyond relatively low cost Microsuck software. Ever wonder why so many third world engineers can come to the US already trained on $50,000 per seat silicon engineering software that very few American students can even get their hands on, and no displaced American worker can afford to learn? Software piracy as a national policy of economic warfare has resulted in the exclusion of mid career American professionals and those American students who aren't rich or lucky enough to go to a few select universities from even participating in the most valuable parts of the electronics design industry. Inevitably, the extracted skills are only the prelude to the gradual extraction of the industry itself, relegating US workers to a "post-industrial" future.

this doesn't mean anything

[netwerk]

Piracy in Malaysia (and countries like Indonesia and Taiwan) is already rampant anyway. At markets you can buy almost any software title you can think of for a few dollars (complete with inkjet cd-r label and jewel inserts :-).

I really don't think this announcement changes anything at all, considering there is already a large market for pirated software in these countries for educational (or not) use.

What's wrong with you people today?

[Sunnan]

The five highest moderated posts are all posts saying that copyright infringement is theft (it'd have to be a strange definition of theft that'd make copying theft) or calling it "piracy". Yeah, well, this one's for my fellow buccaneers.

"You're only a consumer if you purchase what you consume" - does that mean that a child who's mother gives her food is not a consumer? Does that mean that a Debian user who got it gratis with jidgo is not a consumer?

The old "blurring the argument" vague talk about "you condemn GPL violation, how can you condone piracy?" GPL is about freedom for the end user to run, copy and modify software. Unauthorized copying is about that too, to a lesser extent.

RMS, who wrote the GPL and should know what he's talking about, once said that: "Sometimes I think that perhaps one of the best things I could do with my life is: find a gigantic pile of proprietary software that was a trade secret, and start handing out copies on a street corner so it wouldn't be a trade secret any more, and perhaps that would be a much more efficient way for me to give people new free software than actually writing it myself; but everyone is too cowardly to even take it."

These days, we have plenty of free software to go around, and it's harder for the proprietary software industry to fight the free software movement than the "warez movement" since the former is currently legal (the second was too, in the US, before 1976), so I only use free software and I'd suggest that to the malaysians as well.

But the same does not apply to music and movies. While most of the best music and literature these days are free and underground, we still have time to dig the groove of some non-free beats. So we can sponsor the evil RIAA, or take some risks by violating bad laws, or do without the non-free music. We can all make our own choices.

Re:What's wrong with you people today?

[hyphz]

> RMS, who wrote the GPL and should know what
> he's talking about, once said [rmz.priv.no]
> that: "Sometimes I think that perhaps one of
> the best things I could do with my life is:
> find a gigantic pile of proprietary software
> that was a trade secret, and start handing out
> copies on a street corner so it wouldn't be a
> trade secret any more, and perhaps that would
> be a much more efficient way for me to give
> people new free software than actually writing
> it myself; but everyone is too cowardly to even
> take it."

Personally I wonder if it would be possible to simply announce that you have created a database of all possible digital intellectual property, and that you're GPLing the whole thing.

The database would be indexed only by serial number, so that to download any possible work you simply enter its serial number.

Of course, this serialisation system saves massively on disk space, as the work with serial number X is just the number X encoded into binary. This does not mean that the data is not stored in a database, though; it just means that the database is very well compressed. (For example, the database could be the binary encoding of each ASCII number in the database. Or a 650mb file of all binary 1's, which contains all the raw data needed to create any CD image.)

If you wanted to formalize the generation you could send out a distributed.net style system that just counts up very large numbers and reports to the central server the highest number that it has reached.

Any ideas why this wouldn't work? AFAIK, creative property is creative property even if it isn't produced by a creative process (if I just write random bits of music by rolling dice, I can still copyright all the music I write). As the computer is unaware of any other creative work, all copyrighted works it might discover while counting are parallel developments.

The Petulance of Pirates

[duck_prime]

1) software is like fire. You can copy without really 'loosing'. I don't really agree with the term 'stealing', because they don't really 'loose'. You wouldn't have bought it anyway, because you can't afford it.

Where do you think software comes from? It takes lots of money and effort to develop it. Lots of people seem to think that since pirating software doesn't lessen the supply it's okay. What happened to old fashioned morality, where the point of not stealing things was not how much do you hurt the victim, but not taking things that don't belong to you?

So ... according to you, who decides whether you can't afford it or not? What percentage of your income does the software have to cost before you can take it without paying?

And most importantly, and this is a serious question ... what makes you think you're entitled to this software anyway? The software is a private product of some corporation, and it is theirs to do with as they list. If you don't like that, develop your own software and release it under GPL.

Sure, it will help you out if you have this pirated software, and give you a leg up in your chosen field, but that's why they charge for it!

You "information wants to be free" kids are worse than the MPIAA -- at least they throw some scraps to the poor artists/developers.

As a Malaysian

[Anonymous Coward]

As a Malaysian, I'm ashamed to hear you troll on your own country. A country you KNOW very well would be nowhere without piracy.

thougth crime != theft != murder

[Sunnan]

Subject says it all.

Microsoft does sell products cheaper in Asia

[pkphilip]

Some corporations do have different pricing policies outside the US - I am personally aware that atleast MS does price their software considerably cheaper in India (thats where I am).

But you are right in that most companies actually do charge the same rates in developing/third-world nations as they charge in the US. Sometimes the software is even more expensive since Tax/Duty etc get added on.

Piracy is therefore quite rampant - even in business circles. This is changing quite fast though since the governments have been cracking down quite hard following pressure from US based software companies - I know of companies here in India being raided by the anti-piracy squads.. and equipment and property being confiscated.

But it does take a tremendous amount of resolve from the management of the companies in developing nations to actually purchase the software they use.. simply because software purchase costs are very high when you relate it to other costs...For instance, the cost of a Macromedia Flash Design studio is over 2 times the average monthly salary of a Flash designer...and about 8 times the salary of a receptionist or a first level clerk.

I am an Indian and I draw an indian salary ..it has costed me about quarter year's salary to purchase the software that I use - since I decided to stick with legal software.

You're a thief!

[Sunnan]

If, as you say, recieving things that has has value without paying the price is theft, then you were a thief on your last birthday (or whenever you last recieved a gift).

Theft is taking something *from someone* That other person actually has to lose something. (No, not "earn less". If you have a lemonade stand and I set up another lemonade stand and compete with you, am I a thief?)

Unauthorized copying is a crime and if you think it's immoral, please say so instead of using the old "it's theft"-bullshit. Or are you afraid your arguments don't hold up without that connection to something so frowned upon as theft?

Re:You're a thief!

[JCCyC]

Theft is taking something *from someone* That other person actually has to lose something. (No, not "earn less". If you have a lemonade stand and I set up another lemonade stand and compete with you, am I a thief?)

Manager of the Microsoft Lemonade Division says "Hell yes!"

Re:American copyright laws don't make sense to oth

[Sunnan]

Why would any country want to host a parasitic company that hoards it's software and calls copying stealing? Newsflash: copying = constructive since you combat scarcity; copyright = destructive since you create scarcity.

Maybe not legal, but certainly excusable.

[pjbass]

I recently graduated from a small private University in Pennsylvania, and we used mostly free software (Linux and *BSD) to have our classes on. However, when it came to Oracle and COBOL, the most "supported" versions were on AIX and Solaris, and that cost money. I don't know what schools some people went to, but my school certainly didn't have the cash to dish out to "test" the software to make sure it fit into their environment. Even if taking a piece of software that's not licensed, but not "pirated" in the sense that Sun doesn't know that you have a copy of Solaris 8 running aronud, I think that schools should have the option of at least giving software a trial run. When we put in a Sun running Solaris 2.6, it hated all the Linux clients on the subnet due to NFS SVC 3.0 and the Linux kernel on V2. If we knew it would be such a pain in the ass, we would have stuck to AIX. I just think that schools should be given a break, especially since corporations love gouging other corporations for the cash. Just my thoughts.

Piracy ? Probably, but ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I see a strong parellel with the USA's early history.

As I recall, in the early stages of the USA's history, the US quite deliberately legislated that patents (most of which were held be foreigners of course) were not binding.

The motivation: it was not in the (economic) interest of the USA to recognise other people's patents.

Expedient, but still wholesale theft according to the patents holders. Now that the US holds most of the patents they argue that unlicensed use is theft (true) and "immoral" (not so true).

As so often the concept of "moral" simply follows "self-interest".

You've got it backwards.

[northstarlarry]

The RIAA doesn't pay to have their music played. It's the other way around; radio stations pay a fee to the RIAA, or to the labels directly, I'm not sure which. They make the money for the fee by selling airtime to advertisers. That's why those songs are "free" for you.

Re:You've got it backwards.

[geekee]

Although there is some fee that a radio staion must pay to play a song on the air, I seriously doubt the record companies don't kick back a hell of a lot more money to get songs airplay. Without radio, the RIAA couldn't sell a single CD. The radio station is in the driver's seat. Advertising is just icing on the cake. Regardless, once those EM waves leave the tower, it still seems to me the RIAA has given up their copyright by allowing anyone to listen to/record their songs.

It may be a valid point

[Jayman2]

By "letting" educations and to some extent private people use pirated software, companies obviously loose some income.
On the other hand they build a user group, which, once they find themselves employed in companies across the country, will request using the software that they know best, hence the software company stand to gain considerable amounts of corporate licenses over a period of time.
Comparing the prices of private/academic userlicenses with the corporate ditto's I'd say that the software developer stands to make money in the long run.....if they stay afloat for that long of course.

Money$

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're a business, or using the product to make money, you should pay for it. Always. No exceptions. Retroactively, if necessary.

A university or school or hobbiest isn't a business, isn't making money from it, and so being asked to pay for copies is outrageous. This goes for software, books, etc.

The point of human existence isn't to allow Corporations to prosper -- corporations should prosper for the benefit of *people*. Deny this, and you mark yourself as a sociopath -- in which case, nobody should listen to your opinions anyway.

Malaysian law

[firewood]

Theft of copyrighted IP is only a crime in the U.S. because U.S. law makes it so. But a U.S. Copyright applies in the U.S. If Malaysia does not grant a copyright to the developer of the needed educational software, or modifies its national copyright laws so that they does not apply to local educational institutions located in Malaysia, then any copying is not pirating, but simply another form of fair use in Malaysia.

The U.S. limits access to copyrighted material because it thinks that encourages R&D. Other countries are perfectly free to try different policies. Then we can see which policy works best.

Stealing, by any other name, is still stealing !

[Taco Cowboy]

Stealing, in whatever form, for whatever reason, is STILL stealing.

What you are saying - "One of the main reasons is that commercial software is usually sold at the equivalent price of US dollars. This means that software is almost four times as expensive in Malaysia." - is just an excuse !

Nobody points a gun onto the user's head, threatening the user to use the software or they gonna pull the trigger.

The user, for whatever reason, if he or she decides to use the software, has to be RESPONSIBLE for his or her own action.

Don't tell me the user has NO CHOICE. There are always two choices -

1. If you refuse to pay the price, don't use it.

2. Look for alternatives - like open-source packages, or the user can write their own programs.

I've heard those cop-out excuses too often, and I'm really sick of it.

Tell you a secret, I do work in Malaysia, and I for one, will NEVER use pirated softwares. It's not that I'm rich or anything - if I'm rich, I won't be working in this god forsaken place - it's just a principle for me - stealing, by any other name, is STILL stealing.

And if I'm not mistaken, there's a "Thou shalt not steal" thing in the ten commandments.

But of course, you might not be a Christian, you might be a Moslem, who hates Christians. But no matter what religious belief you belong to, stealing is STILL stealing, even your Allah will tell you that stealing is STILL stealing.

Re:Stealing, by any other name, is still stealing

[Hoo00]

"Thou shalt not steal" the opportunity for me to learn these software!

You are only stealing software because the law say so. In fact, software is not a property and nothing in the law says that piracy is stealing. The worst this can be is copyright violation. Malaysia as a country can create an exception for such "stealing". Of course, U.S. and other countries can also do what they want.

Re:fp

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah I can't wait to metamod this as "unfair" if it comes my way.

Semantically speaking ...

[Taco Cowboy]

You sez:

"You are only stealing software because the law say so."

Semantically speaking, you are correct.

But let's go beyond semantic, and come to this real world we live in, shall we?

Do you see any samatarian lately ?

Do you see poor people getting really well fed, lately ?

What's the point for people going through rote training - for example, taking programming classes, and doing all-night-long hacking sessions - and producing softwares that work, if not because the resulting software brings the producer (author) some type of benefits - money, fame, or both ?

Yes, I am a supporter of Open Source software. I do contribute codes (not whole program, just fixes, and sometimes suggestions) when I find the time, or when I have the talent to do so.

But there _are_ commercial softwares out there that require people to pay for the use of the softwares.

Maybe the software prices are too exorbitants, but that doesn't reduce the fact that NOT EVERYTHING WE HAVE IN THIS WORLD ARE FREE !

If one wants to use a commercialware, one is required to pay for it. If one refuses to pay, one can A) Not using the commercialware, or B) Find an alternative to the commercialware.

Pirating commercialware is an act of USING the commercialware KNOWINGLY without paying for it.

Yes, it's the LAW that says pirating commercialware is an act of stealing. But if we go beyond the law, one who pirates the commercialware already BROKEN the agreement between the owner of the commercialware (the producer) and the user - the agreement whereby anyone who wants to use the comemrcialware must PAY for the use.

Just like I say, if you don't like the terms of the agreement, don't use the product.

Don't come back and tell the world about "it's the law" or "it's too expensive".

Nobody is forcing anyone to use commercialware.

If the commercialware is TOO EXPENSIVE, then you can try to search for open-source (and/or free) alternatives, or, you can write your own software(s) that do whatever the commercialware does.

It's that simple.

Re:Semantically speaking ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I just want to learn how to use the software and not pay for it.

- I ain't gonna hurt anybody.
- I won't pay you in the first place anyway (since I have no money), so you didn't lose any money.
- I ain't claiming I write that software, so you didn't lose any fame.

Consider that:
- I might even promote your software, such that you may get some of those benefits you are looking for (fame, money, etc).

I just need the law to say so, perhaps in Malaysia.

Re:If you don't allow it, you loose a possible mar

[Hoo00]

We all know that something is definitely different for GPL violations. That's right. It is after an individual and small company copy the software (which is actually legal), they modify the software (legal) and distribute it (legal) without the source (oh oh) So GPL violations is not okay. The principle of the matter is different because the individual and small company is claiming ownership of the software.

Re:thievery is what I call it (OT question)

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, now that's a term I didn't expect to ever see on Slashdot! :)

Umnoputra!

No I'm not a bumiputra. Here's what I know. Bumiputras get preference when they enrol for local Malaysian universities. It's much easier for them to get scholarships and admittance to a local university, compared to a non-bumiputra -- even if their SPM grades (SPM = SAT-equivalent) are lower than non-bumiputras.

Quotas have been abolished in 2001, and all intakes
for public universities are now based on merit. Guess what? Bumiputras STILL outnumber non-bumis, 60% to 40%. Back in the quota days it was 55% to 45%. Now we have the non-bumi political parties BEGGING the government to reinstate quotas.

And they have this "quota" policy. Like there can be only a certain amount of non-bumis enrolled in any local university. That pretty much destroys the chances of non-bumis getting in, especially the poorer ones, no matter how smart they are. It's really a shame.

Bah! A bumi cannot get a job in the non-bumi controlled private sector. Malaysia has no
anti-discrminiation law in hiring, so the non-bumi
companies, which control most of the economy, simply will NOT hire bumis. They wind up unemployed, causing the government to INCREASE
bumi quotas for entrepreneur loans, governmemtn-guaranteed bank loans, subsidies, and increase the bumi quota for jobs in the civil service, where these policies that hurt non bumis so much get formulated.

That's a shame, really.

I'm not sure if bumis get a free education or not.

NO. Bumiputras pay just as much as everyone else.

The reason I don't know is because non-bumis generally do not even consider getting into local universities, because of discriminatory policies. Even if they get admitted, they've got to work their asses off just to graduate.

"just to graduate?" - overdramatic. They DO work their asses off, but most of them don't flunk out, they earn distinctions at university.

The result is very few non-bumis actually attend local universities.

I do know that bumis get a whole ton of government benefits, and a whole bunch of them do get government sponsorship to overseas universities like those in the States. All this while the non-bumis bust their asses just to get a decent education.

As a former scholar myself, all I can say is, I've
been given the opportunity to fight the non-bumis who DO go overseas, on academic grounds, in a neutral venue (if a bumi and a non bumi go to the same non-malaysian university, and the bumi works harder and does better, is that discrimination too?)

They can't take it off because the bumis have become too dependent on it.. and they can't live without it. Any politician who suggests removing the policy gets a whole lot of opposition from bumis.

Mahathir HIMSELF singlehandedly abolished the university quota system, and despite all the opposition, it went through, and now bumis STILL
outnumber non-bumis in public universities, on MERIT. So most of your arguments on discrimnation are shot. If anything, it's the clannish and cronyistic business practices of the non-bumis that are holding bumis back economically.

educational packages

[oliverthered]

I don't know if there still available but a few years ago you could get an educational version of 3dstudio &co. for about £60 in the UK.
You didn't have to be a student either.
The disk included,
3d Studio MAX.
The latest version of autocad.
and a few other great packages.
All full versions.
Now thats about £6,000 of software for £60.

I too use a lot of 'trial' versions of software, I don't believe it's stolen because:-
1: the points you made,
2: I couldn't afford to buy it in the first place so there's no lost sale.

I think most 3d companies realise that they gain more from 'trial' software then they loose.

Medicine

[squaretorus]

Your people are all dying of Aids, the US / EU drug company that holds the patent charges you US$3000 per person per year for the drugs to give them a sustainably high quality of life.

You can make them yourself for US$80 per person per year. Piracy??

As a raving capitalist I think the copy protection of material which has a genuine direct impact on human quality of life is evil and wrong and should be stopped.

Copy protect Britneys next CD, but when she goes back to school and finds a cure for cancer - that should DEFAULT to the public domain.

Re:Medicine

[sql*kitten]

Your people are all dying of Aids, the US / EU drug company that holds the patent charges you US$3000 per person per year for the drugs to give them a sustainably high quality of life.

I've never understood why people default to "evil corporations putting profits before lives" rather than "evil, corrupt governments misappropriating their taxpayer's money instead of spending it on healthcare".

Basically, the lack of medicine boils down to governments wanting to spend on prestige projects. They stole from their own populations, and now they want to steal from foreign corporations. And our governments are letting it happen. In the long term, everyone loses apart from those so-called officials. Particularly the ill, when the pharmaceutical industry realizes that it can make guaranteed profits by research drugs that won't get appropriated, like Viagra or Prozac instead of medicines.

Re:Visio?? Smart Draw?? Try Dia!!

[drsoran]

Visio's strongpoint is the massive library of shapes and images already out there. It'd take a lot longer to sit there and try to draw all the shapes in Dia when you could just pull out Visio and select a bunch of shapes and connect them together with lines. Too bad Dia can't use Visio shape libraries.

Offtopic

[Anonymous Coward]

I doubt you really work in Malaysia, Taco Cowboy, because if you did, you wouldn't be saying:

"But of course, you might not be a Christian, you might be a Moslem, who hates Christians."

I am a Malaysian Moslem, and I have not seen any case where it's even mentioned that a Moslem hates Christians. The closest thing I can think of is grade school teasing ("I don't need to wear a cross, nyah! nyah! nyah!). I for one, don't hate Christians. In fact, none of my Moslem friends in Malaysia do.

Don't assume from news reports about the views of a minority and think that it represents the views of the majority.

Remember when?

[Anonymous Coward]

Copyright used to mean the PRINTED word? Billy Gates stretched the concept via brute force and lawyers and lobbyists. The initial concept is still valid, I believe the Gates model to be flawed. Gates took what was esentially a free product and began to convince people that they should pay for software. Society allowed him to change their perception of software. Laws change, let's change these laws back to a believable, useable set of laws and level the field for all.
.
.
War and Peace is NOT re-written and re-released in versions... Static works should be copyrightable, works that are not finished are merely rough drafts. They should not have full copyright protection until they are etched in stone as a finished product.
.
.
Moderate me you cheesy brainless *nix weenies...

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Writing off pirated software

[Rich0]

With regard to writing software pirated by schools as donations you will surely not get an argument from the BSA. I can just see the headline:

Microsoft claims taxable net loss of 3.8 quadrillion dollars as a result of piracy. In other news - declares dividend of $2/share.

Education is more important.

[Quixadhal]

The interesting thing about an action like this, where a country declares that piracy shall be condoned if it's done to help educate people, is that if it works, those same people will be LESS likely to pirate software as adults in the professional world.

Why? Because a properly educated individual is more likely to accept what we consider to be modern ethics. They are more likely to consider the consequences of their actions, and thus as the overall level of education rises, the level of anything beyond casual try-before-buy piracy will probably decline.

globalisation promotes software piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

imagine that it might costs an average malaysian few months of savings in order to buy an original software with the current conversion rate now. but in the US the software might be seem reasonably cheap as is it priced in the US dollar.For example the WinXP might cost US100 per copy but in malaysian ringgit it will cost RM380. this is a lot of money, and not much ppl can afford it.
If software publishers would lower the price or make it affordable to the citizens of developing country, these ppl will not resort to piracy.

Nonsense propaganda.

[jotaeleemeese]

Spell it slow: c-o-p-y-r-i-g-t-h.

Good boy, again: c-o-p-y-r-i-g-h-t.

Copy Right. Ged it?

Good man, copyright is about legislating how do you deal with copies (the copy part, do you follow?) of original works.Or in other words how to regulate the Right to Copy stuff that anyone has.

If it was teft, there would not be the need for copyright law, you bozo.

A person infringing copyright may be breaking the law, but is not stealing anything.

Now, try to understand this before using such lame examples like the one you poorly choosed to make your point.

Re:American copyright laws don't make sense to oth

[Anonymous Coward]

keep telling that to yourself while you photocopy books, copy music and copy videos.

Nosensical propaganda.

[jotaeleemeese]

If copyright infringement was stealing we would not have two different laws dealing with the "same" crime.

Somebody copying software without permission is infringing copyright, or commiting a copyright violation (do you understand English, read it slow copy-right: regulation of the right to copy).

If you want to discuss these issues use the correct terminology.

Ugh, ugly racist remark.

[jotaeleemeese]

Look, if you live there and don't understand what Islam is all about then shut you mouth, you appear pretty stupid and ignorant.

And for the record: I lived in Malaysia for 4 years and made many friends and worked with great people.

With your attittude you should be working somewhere else.

I dare you ...

[jotaeleemeese]

... to show me a piece of legislation where copyright infringement is labeled as theft.

I know you can't do it, so I will not bet.

Bullshit: goverments can alter copy rights.

[jotaeleemeese]

If the Malaysian (or any goverment for that matter) decided tomorrow that there is no copyright violation if software is copied to allow for teaching in schools, I am sorry to burst you closed-source bubble, but then the act will be completely legal.

Copyright is not set in stone, it can be modified according to the needs of a country.

If the US goverment has decided that the needs of Disney Studios are more important than the promotion of invention and inovation, well, tough luck, that does not mean any other goverment should be forced to follow suit.

This Malaysain minister at least has got a clue what he is talking about and is suggeting a possible solution to a real problem, namely, the decriminalization of copying of software for educational purposes (which otherwise would make criminals of teachers and students of poorer schools).

Re:Bullshit: goverments can alter copy rights.

[lowieken]

So do I paraphrase you correctly this way:
"This country can just lift educational use of software out of its copyright policy. They have a sovereign right to do so."

Seems to me as if you don't know things like WIPO or the Bern convention too well...
Malaysia too has voluntarily entered into international intellectual property treaties.
Copyright is much more set in stone than you think.

About the only countries in the world that can just put aside such important international treaties they voluntarily agreed to are the US (especially) and China. And even for them, things have gotten much more difficult the last few years.

What about me?

[Vortran]

I recommend software for my company who purchases for about 10,000 users, but I cannot afford to buy this stuff for my own home use. Since I'm not affiliated with a university, I cannot get the educational discount.

Question: For just fiddling around (read: playing with my toys) should I be required to pay software prices that assume I am using the licensed software to make a profit?

To be honest, this seems to be where free-as-in-beer software is most useful - to the "prosumer" computer geek who is using software, not to make a profit, but just to have fun and learn.

Vortran out

Product is not defined by protection

[Anonymous Coward]

What pipe were you smoking when you wrote that. The lack of consumer protection doesn't disqualify software as being a product.

If I have a limited warranty on something, and have pointed out what I have made sure it will and won't do, then, unless someone gets hurt because of negligence, that is fine. If someone gets hurt because of negligence with software, you can be sure they will get sued.

The hard part is determining what is negligence versus par for the course.

Contrary to what the movies might tell you...

[devnull17]

Carrying a machine gun is definitely not legal in the United States.

An interesting anecdote on this topic

[salimma]

From Advogato; 'The New Opium War', a translation from a Chinese article.

Enjoy :)

Michel

Re:thievery is what I call it (OT question)

[SteelX]

Well thanks for the update. I don't keep up-to-date with stuff at home because I'm totally fed up with it. Well, I'll believe it when I see it.

I just wish we'll just cut this racial issue crap and stick with totally merit-based non-discriminatory policies. Don't you?

I'm so bloody tired with archaic nonsense.

Re:Stealing, by any other name, is still stealing

[SteelX]

What you are saying - "One of the main reasons is that commercial software is usually sold at the equivalent price of US dollars. This means that software is almost four times as expensive in Malaysia." - is just an excuse !

Straight from the beginning of my post, I said that piracy is WRONG. I personally use open source software. But I said I do understand what motivates people to pirate software. That's NOT advocating piracy, is it? Did you read my post or not?

But of course, you might not be a Christian, you might be a Moslem, who hates Christians. But no matter what religious belief you belong to, stealing is STILL stealing, even your Allah will tell you that stealing is STILL stealing.

You are SO clueless I don't even know where to begin. Just because I'm Malaysian that doesn't mean that I'm a Moslem (and I'm NOT). This is SO uncalled for. And you said that you worked in Malaysia so I'm even more shocked at your uneducated response. Where do you stay and work in Malaysia, some hole in the ground? You would've been better off not telling me your little secret.

Look, I know that stealing is stealing, in fact I referred to piracy as stealing, while the posters who replied earlier said that it's copyright infringement. Bottom line is that it's a crime. And I don't advocate it.

Next time read the bloody post before you reply.

Cool!

[Sunnan]

That's a great idea, actually. Even if it wouldn't work (I can't see why not), it would be a great art stunt, a real message to the number hoarders.
Can someone start work on this ASAP?

Re:American copyright laws don't make sense to oth

[Sunnan]

Sure, thanks! Me and my friends will gladly share our music, video and books while you and your friends will just sit in isolation hoarding your stuff because "sharing is theft!".

I used to work in Malaysia...

[Anonymous Coward]

Every bit of software my Malaysian employers used was pirated. If we needed someting, we'd just go down to the mall and buy a bootleg copy for 25-50 ringgits (~USD10). They have whole shops that sell nothing but pirated software, VCDs, and music. Once in a while, the government makes a show of shutting down one of these shops, but they usually operate with impunity right out in the open.

Re:I used to work in Malaysia...

[mumblestheclown]

RM$ 25-50 for software in malaysia?

your employer was not too bright. The going rate is about RM$3-5 per disc (US$1), or RM$10 (US$3) if you're a tourist.

steal or not to steal

[wooik]

As a Malaysian, I don't feel comfortable with this idea at all.

If one cannot afford the money to buy a BMW, it doesn't mean that that person is entitled to steal it, regardless of whether he/she is a machanic or a janitor.

Malaysians didn't steal BMW's, they shouldn't steal softwares, instead, they build cheaper cars so it's more affordable. They should look for cheaper solution, build a new OS or use the free alternative -- linux, free bsd, etc.

If they want the fancy feature of BMW, they should buy BMW, if they looking for something more affordable, they should buy local cars. If they want fancy (useless) features OS's from M$, they should buy it, if they couldn't afford it, use the alternatives.

Dia is cool but needs scripting and SQL linkage

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of the *really* cool things you can do with Visio are based on using VBA and an ODBC engine. Any true hacker could probably kluge this capability into Dia using something like Python and MySQL, but it would be a big job for sure.

The old "Bill of Materials" generator is a great example. You select a bunch of components and drag them over onto the drawing. Meanwhile the Python code is creating database entries based on what you do.

Re:If you don't allow it, you loose a possible mar

[Wouter Van Hemel]

This is a bit of a pushed comparision, but yes, I would condone this attitude when it would come to the GPL, on the (same) condition that it would benefit the human situation and quality of life of the people involved.

An example of humane situation is famine, not 'a new car'.

You see, the idea of free software (the way I see it) is humanity. Is it wrong to violate the GPL? Yes. Are you going to sue someone who breaks it because of hunger? No.

The law is a guide, because the moral of people tends to suck bigtime. I'm afraid of people who closed-mindedly declare 'the law is the law', not ever having had real hunger. That includes me. The GPL gives the power, the rights, back to the customer, the user, because of a more broad philosophy. Ask Stallman if the GPL was meant against money-sucking corporations, or hungry people.

So, depending on your definition of 'really needed to violate the GPL', yes, if under reasonable urgency. Life sadly enough isn't as simple as black and white, and we need to learn to live with many shades of gray. Of truth.

Re:If you don't allow it, you loose a possible mar

[chris_7d0h]

Here's to rights back to consumer.
Err, actually, its "here's to rights back to the (non)-consumers.

Or, "Here's to rights back to the private individuals / citizen".

Good and right is what gives most happiness to the largest amount of people, not necessary what is written in a book of law. As a result laws are at times changed by ethics and the idea of a better society. Just because it is printed does not mean it is any more right than if it weren't.

Are people not agreeing to the law evil?
Is the law as it is today the final revision and thus being good, right and fair?
Should we condemn all who whish to change the law?
.. or, albeit seemingly very unlikely judging from many a slashdot post, are the laws not yet in their final revision and still in need of refinement and change, making the laws not being the equivalence of rightousness, goodness and the hall mark of what to strive and aim for in all cases?

Re:thievery is what I call it (OT question)

[Red Pointy Tail]

>Quotas have been abolished in 2001, and all >intakes
>for public universities are now based on merit. >Guess what? Bumiputras STILL outnumber non->bumis, 60% to 40%. Back in the quota days it was >55% to 45%. Now we have the non-bumi political >parties BEGGING the government to reinstate >quotas.

Actually, quotas have been disguised, not abolished. Many bumis get into university from the automatic route of MARAs and tertiary institutions that are ONLY OPEN TO BUMIS, whereas other races fight tooth-and-nail via the STPM examinations as their only route. Where is the merit and competition in this? As for the increase, a sample space of 1 year is insufficient to draw any conclusions.

Any please show me from where did you get the gem that political parties are BEGGING for the quota system to be reinstated.

> As a former scholar myself, all I can say is,
> I've been given the opportunity to fight
> the non-bumis who DO go overseas, on academic
> grounds, in a neutral venue (if a bumi and a
> non bumi go to the same non-malaysian
> university, and the bumi works harder and
> does better, is that discrimination too?)

I am sure you stand up brilliantly to competition :) Honestly, I detest the stereotypes and think it's complete bullshit. One thing I note is that with 25 years of affirmative action in the name of national unity and cohesion, bumis and non-bumis are not any closer, but more rife with recriminations and distrust from both sides. One of the sticking points is the policy itself.

> Mahathir HIMSELF singlehandedly abolished the
> university quota system, and despite all the
> opposition, it went through, and now bumis
> STILL outnumber non-bumis in public
> universities, on MERIT

I appauld his steps but we will still need more than just a few misleading cosmetic changes to be impressed. Whatever it is, why not get back to a complete merit system, where the best man win, with social valves for the disadvantaged, regardless of race?

> If anything, it's the clannish and cronyistic
> business practices of the non-bumis that are
> holding bumis back economically.

What bollocks. Non-bumi companies will love to hire bumis who are capable since they are perceived to open doors and also to make up their bumi-quota :>

Oh, I know Islam really well, thank you !

[Taco Cowboy]

You sez:
"Look, if you live there and don't understand what Islam is all
about then shut you mouth, you appear pretty stupid and ignorant."

Oh, all the Christians in this god forsaken country know how "well" Islam is. We all know how "well" they have treated the infidels (non-Moslems), so well that they burn down churches, and stop the building of a Catholic church, in the _middle_ of the construction process.

We also know how much those Moslems "love" the Christians, so much that they kill a Christian politician in Kulim, Kedah !

And we understand fully why the Moslems are so concern about their "brothers" in Ambon, Indonesia - who, incidentally, commit murderous rampage against the Christians villages, - so much so that the main Moslem political party actually sent stuffs to "aid" their "suffering brothers". Among the "aid" they sent were guns and ammunitions.

We all know that.

Now, who is to shut up ? Who's stupid and ignorant ?

If you've been working here for 4 years and don't know anything, hey guy, have you check your head lately ?

Re:Oh, I know Islam really well, thank you !

[Anonymous Coward]

You sez:
"Look, if you live there and don't understand what Islam is all
about then shut you mouth, you appear pretty stupid and ignorant."

Oh, all the Christians in this god forsaken country know how "well" Islam is. We all know how "well" they have treated the infidels (non-Moslems), so well that they burn down churches,

and did the people who burnt this church down
escape scot-free? no? they were treated as criminals, you say? BUT how can they treat
holy warriors this way?!

We also know how much those Moslems "love" the Christians, so much that they kill a Christian politician in Kulim, Kedah !

Never heard of KMM ah? You know the KMM are TERRORISTS right? and terrorists != general population?

And we understand fully why the Moslems are so concern about their "brothers" in Ambon, Indonesia - who, incidentally, commit murderous rampage against the Christians villages, - so much so that the main Moslem political party

The main Moslem political party is NOT the
government.

actually sent stuffs to "aid" their "suffering brothers". Among the "aid" they sent were guns and ammunitions.

We all know that.

If you "know" all that, you'd know that if the
main moslem party sent guns and ammo to Ambon, the entire bloody party would be banned and the leadership thrown into jail under ISA! It's just the excuse Mahazalim wants!

Now, who is to shut up ? Who's stupid and ignorant ?

you are.

If you've been working here for 4 years and don't know anything, hey guy, have you check your head lately ?

Been living here longer than you work here,boy.
Don't flash off what you don't know. Doesn't work on the net.

Really ?

[Taco Cowboy]

You sez:

"I am a Malaysian Moslem, and I have not seen any case
where it's even mentioned that a Moslem hates Christians."

Now would you kindly tell all of us who murdered that Christian politician in Kulim, Kedah ?

Fellow Christians ?

Or the Moslems ?

You tell us how well the UMNO (Moslem) thugs are behaving, in the case of the abrupt stoppage of the building of a Catholic church in Selangor ?

You may NOT hate Christians, but many of your fellow Moslems do, including those who are studying in the local universities. Look how those "university students" are treating the "infidels".

Look more closely next time, and you will find them.