Microsoft To Make Wireless Networking Hardware

traskjd writes "Microsoft are looking to increase their strength in the hardware market with wireless and conventional networking hardware according to this story on cnet. Microsoft has always been slow at moving into the hardware market... could they be testing the waters for making things like switches and routers in the future? Lets hope not..." There's also a Reuters article. There was a story last year that mentioned Microsoft was working on Win-WiFi - 802.11b hardware that exported some of the processing to the CPU in much the same manner as a winmodem, and thus was cheaper to produce. These stories don't mention anything about that, so probably these are conventional 802.11b devices.

Comments

What's the big deal?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure if they make hardware, they'll make it compatiable to work with *other* operating systems. Right?

Hehe... ;)

Re:What's the big deal?

[cscx]

Well, just look at what happens when you type in "Go to hell" in Google...

Re:What's the big deal?

[inode_buddha]

Hah!! Hah! Great link :D

MS getting into wireless networking should make life much more enjoyable for "war-chalkers" don't you think?

Re:What's the big deal?

[Cynikal]

forget that, just hope they include some kind of removable media device for the often times you'll have to rip tcp/ip

Re:What's the big deal?

[Breakfast Pants]

OH NO! Microsoft is letting software do part of some hardware's work! They are evil! Whoa check out the cool work gnuradio is doing!! That is, " bar none, the single most exciting software project in existence today."

Re:What's the big deal?

[Catbeller]

There isn't any real reason to export the hardware's work to the CPU. Other than tying the win-WiFi's operation to Windows, exclusively.

Microsoft is making this card because no one else will -- the market doesn't want it.

But if MS makes it preferable, and cheaper, to hook the WWF to their products, then MS owns the WiFi market. Which means innovation in the wireless market is controlled by MS. And they've shown endlessly what they do when they own markets.

MS innovate? Nope, they copy -- and the real question is, if MS didn't own several markets, what innovation could have come from other sources, that are now gone forever?

Monopoly, regardless of the opinion of the Chicago School of legal activists, has only limited consumer benefits. One can measure how wonderful the world is with MS controlling hardware and software on the desktop. But how do you measure negative consequences -- what *didn't* happen because MS doesn't want change?

Will?

[Anonymous Coward]

Will Microsoft make this equipment or just slap a logo on somebody else's?

I do like my Microsoft keyboard, it's great when it sits in my lap.

Re:Will?

[glesga_kiss]

or just slap a logo on somebody else's

Probably. You'd be amazed at how many of the big hardware companies outsource the manufacturing of hardware and then stick their own badge on it. Often you can see the exact same device with diffent brand names, but that usually only happens with the smaller companies.

Even if they don't do that, it will be off-the-shell components that make it. I don't see MS building a PCB and IC fabrication facility, or designing the PCB track layout.

So in essence, this article is about MS striking a contract to rebadge someone elses products. You do get their support and reseller infrastructure from that (for better or worse). The stuff should be pretty good quality, putting aside all the MS bashing, these companies do live and die based on reputations, so it should be decent.

I wonder if it will ship with an insecure default config? That would be a turnup for MS, if they get that aspect right for once!

EULA

[theNote]

Can you imagine the EULA Microsoft would have on a router?

I bet they would have some legaleese saying they can access you're network at anytime.

Re:EULA

[Jondor]

The moment you install a windows machine with the network the could do that already anyhow..

On the other side, I can imagine the little LCD screen saying "Packet recieved, please reboot to continue."

And once in a while a LCD-Gray screen of death..

(hmm.. or where the routers the ones with the blinking leds.. oh well.. they can do "please reboot in morse")

Re:EULA

[theNote]

Nope.

Every firmware upgrade I've received for my router has had a EULA.
Even the drivers for my WiFi cards have EULAs.
And guess what?
A router is useless without its firmware.

Wow

[Phil the Canuck]

Microsoft...entering...wireless...market...
too...many...security...jokes...
head...exploding...

Re:Wow

[MaxVlast]

Is it connected to the Internet?

Re:Wow

[unicron]

Thing has never even been turned on. It's a DL380 that's still in it packaging, molded foam and all.

woohoo, winmodem!

[SirSlud]

Furture Windows Msg:

"Sorry, you cannot use Explorer.exe at this time. The CPU's resources are being used to serve the WinWiFi router."

Re:woohoo, winmodem!

[theNote]

Yeah, there are so many low power all in one wifi/wired routers on the market, I can't imagine why you'd want one that needed you're power hungry 2GHz space heater on to access the net from you're handheld.

Re:woohoo, winmodem!

[scott1853]

It's the other way around. The more CPU usage you have, the slower your connection.

I don't know about you guys..

[ChronoZ]

but usually Microsoft hardware isn't bad at all. I like their USB mice quite a bit, and their natural ergonomic keyboard is pretty cool. So as far as their hardware record, they've had a good reputation (IMHO).

I'd predict that their wireless networking hardware may turn up to be a good quality product.

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because they just buy or license existing hardware from quality manufacturers, at least in the case of mice and keyboards.

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[SirSlud]

This might sound trollish, but I assure you its a sincere question:

Did MS ever make its own hardware? Do they have their own in house hardware engineers? Or do they just integrate horizontally with the hardware market when they choose?

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[capt.Hij]

This may sound like a troll, but I am very ignorant about their "hardware," i.e. mice and keyboards. I had always assumed that they contracted that stuff out. Do they really make that stuff or is done out of house?

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[mpe]

but usually Microsoft hardware isn't bad at all. I like their USB mice quite a bit, and their natural ergonomic keyboard is pretty cool. So as far as their hardware record, they've had a good reputation (IMHO).

Do Microsoft actually make hardware? Or do they simply put their name on hardware someone else made?

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[Pfhreakaz0id]

Agreed. I have two of their USB gamePads and they are very nice and have held up well.. Haven't used any of their other stuff, though.

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[stg]

I agree. I've only used Microsoft Natural Keyboards for years now, and I've used a couple of their mouses (including my current optical mouse) and they are both great.

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[nakaduct]

There was an article in Wired a couple of years ago about this: they use a "manufacturing contractor" (not sure if that's the right term). MS does the design, they take the plans to Flextronics in Mexico, who recommends small changes (use a different-size screw here, etc.), quotes a per-unit manufacturing price, and then builds and packages the gear.

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[gellor]

I have to agree with this.

Work just bought us all new pointing devices (trackballs or mice depending on individual prefrence) and I recieved the Microsoft Trackball Explorer. It is rather nice.

Now you have to understand, I'm addicted to the original Logitech Trackman Vista (fingertip control with the blue control ball) to the point where I've obtained 5 of them off of ebay since Logitech quit making that model.

However, I have to say that this Microsoft track ball may just work as a replacement. I'm not sure about it's gaming preformance. The middle and ring finger buttons MAY be a bit too easy to confuse in the heat of a firefight for use in FPS gaming.

Anyway, this is the first microsoft product that I've ever been HAPPY about work buying for us. Had to happen eventually I guess. ;)

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[blixel]

but usually Microsoft hardware isn't bad at all. I like their USB mice quite a bit, and their natural ergonomic keyboard is pretty cool. So as far as their hardware record, they've had a good reputation (IMHO).

1. Wireless networking equipment uses an encryption scheme known as WEP. If Microsoft jumps into this line of hardware, I gurantee you they will make "MS-WEP" which is virtually incompatible with standard WEP. Such was the case with CHAP and MS-CHAP. They do this because if their version of the encryption scheme becomes widely used, it will become the defacto standard and that just becomes one more element of computing that you have to pay Microsoft tax on. Granted WEP has it's problems, but come on... are you really going to trust Microsoft to get the security right?

2. I highly doubt Microsoft makes their own Mice/Keyboard hardware. So if you want to give out props to someone, give it to the real manufacturer of their products, not to Microsoft. Microsoft just sticks their name on it for marketing reasons because their name is more likely to sell then if it said "Chuwing Yokung Inc."

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[rmohr02]

Yes, their hardware is generally pretty good, but I try to buy Logitech input devices on principle.

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[SirSlud]

Okay, so design is done in house, but manufacturing is outsourced. Thanks.

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[SlugLord]

microsoft mice are indeed good hardware. (yes yes I know microsoft doesn't actually make anything, but rather rebrands the products of others -- that's good business)
The difference is that microsoft mice adhere to generally accpted standards, while winmodems simply created a new proprietary standard to make them cheaper (and, incidentally, less efficient). The problem is not that Microsoft would make networking hardware (they don't make anything, remember), but that they would introduce a new standard in worthless soft-hardware, which is just silly.

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[NineNine]

I highly doubt Microsoft makes their own Mice/Keyboard hardware. So if you want to give out props to someone, give it to the real manufacturer of their products, not to Microsoft. Microsoft just sticks their name on it for marketing reasons because their name is more likely to sell then if it said "Chuwing Yokung Inc."

That doesn't matter. What does matter are they are the ones that bring them to market. There aren't a whole lot of retail companies that manufacture their own stuff. But, who cares? Do you investigate every car part branded "Toyota" to see who manufactured it? What about stereo equipment? Hell.... anything bought retail. You may be aware that MS doesn't actually have their own manufacturing facilities, but you're woefull unaware that most retail products that you buy are done the same way. Whether MS manufactures them or not doesn't matter. The little hardware that they do sell is fantastic, and if that's any indicator, their wireless stuff will be great, too.

Besides, wireless is still very, very niche. With MS marketing behind it, you'll see wireless everywhere in a matter of years, and you'll see pricing drop. I don't know about you, but I'm much more likely to buy a "MS Wireless" card, than a "ChunKing Wireless" card.

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[debrain]

re. 1: Logitech currently has a proprietary version of WEP that is 128 bit, because there is no current standard for highly secure WEP. I am sure Microsoft will follow suit with their own proprietary exclusive WEP, although for different reasons.

re. 2: Microsoft probably has an exclusive manufacturing deal with a provider such that the only way to get a Microsoft type mouse is through Microsoft. Outsourcing like this is done for many thing; IBM manufacturers PowerPC chips, yet they are called Motorola. It is still a Motorola PC, because Motorola owns the schematics. The exclusivity deal of Microsoft's no doubt is functionally and legally equivalent to Motorola's IBM fab deal. This allows Microsoft and Motorola to choose different manufacturers for "their" products.

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft designed their own keyboards. I know this for a fact. My wife worked on the beta team for the original Natural keyboard. They had many prototypes that they tried out before they released that keyboard.

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[Troed]

Flextronics usually helps customers with a LOT more than just "use a different screw-size" ;) They (we - actually - Flex just bought the company I work for) can re-design whole circuit boards and use ASICs instead to drive the cost down.

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[Otterley]

Actually, MS-CHAP is a rather interesting protocol, and its origin is best explained by expressing the limitations of CHAP in general.

It's not that Microsoft had any burning desire to supplant CHAP with a fundamentally incompatible protocol for evil, monopoly-furthering reasons.

Instead, they were attempting to deal with a limitation in that CHAP is unusuable if your passwords are stored encrypted on your system (i.e. CHAP can't be used to authenticate yourself when your credentials are in an /etc/passwd file).

Microsoft stores its passwords in much the same way (encrypted on the server) and so they needed to develop a protocol that would send the passwords encrypted across the wire yet be usable to authenticate oneself against a SAM database -- hence the development of MS-CHAP.

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[roman_mir]

Microsoft natural keyboard? It should be considered an insult to all coders that come from the days of borland text editors for pascal, c/c++ and turbo assembler. I use insert, delete, home, end, page up, page down and the arrow keys extensively while programming - there is no better way to do text selects, cuts, deletes, paste and moving around the screen. But those freaking keyboards have completely destroyed all borland advantage - the insert, delete, home, end, p.up, p.down keys are in 3 rows 2 cols instead of 2 rows 3 cols and the arrow keys are all screwed up.

I have a theory this was done intentionnaly to force those used to borland typing to use mouse instead, thus forcing visual programming with their vb guis.

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[Timinithis]

Keyboards, Mice and Joysticks, while good hardware, do not carry personal information that could be intercepted. Yes, programs on computers can trap those inputs, but a Logitech or Belkin keyboard is subject to the same programs.

I am not about to let Microsoft carry any of my wireless traffic. When they can patch the OS as fast as an OSS bug, then maybe I will consider it. The last thing I would need, is some announcement "Microsoft's Wireless Hardware vulnerable to [insert vulnerability here]." Six months later, I've still got the same vulnerability because its in the firmware, and they didn't allow for it to be upgraded or patched.

Thanks but no thanks.

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[bbhack]

I can't find it right now, but I recall from several years ago that the inventor of the mouse wheel had his invention stolen by you-know-who, and he prevailed somewhat.

Google failed me on this one. Maybe the history of that event has been erased.

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[Sj0]

Choose your battles carefully.

We are the segment most likely to turn back the effects of the MS monopoly; our moral decisions concerning cars mean little.

I still don't buy nikes though.

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[testadicazzo]

I agree with this, but the business about exporting some of the processes to the cpu bothers me.

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[Sj0]

In my case, I believe that making a difference is more important than following any given principle. If I can change something, no matter how small, I've done something more important than merely avoiding that situation. In a world where everything you own was build by a rich company somewhere, simply avoiding all things which you are morally apprehensive about is impossibe, so go for changing that which you can instead.

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[Jebediah21]

The only thing I have ever liked that bears the MS seal is the original SideWinder 6-Button gamepad (plugs into gameport). Works like a charm under Linux and it totally rocks for an old Genesis fan playing games under XMAME.

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[galaxy300]

Wait, what are you saying? Then who made my "Dell, by Microsoft" mouse? Dell? Microsoft? Nintendo? Who?

Re:I don't know about you guys..

[Sj0]

The action itself is far more important than the actions one might have taken. While others talk of change(for decades), those who make it happen should answer to no one in terms of what else they could have done.

Re:When Microsoft makes wireless hardware...

[capt.Hij]

From the Reuter's article:
Microsoft said that the software will make it painless for users of its hardware products to install a wireless network and connect a variety of devices.

See, there's nothing to worry about. Everything will be all right. Life will be good and I can go home early every night from now on....

A new meaning for BSOD

[The Slashdolt]

Blue Sky Of Death. Those aren't clouds, they're core dumps and stack traces. I can see Fatal Exception right there next to the cloud that looks like Bill Gates giving you the middle finger.

Re:A new meaning for BSOD

[GiorgioG]

Can anyone who is competent in Windows 2000/XP administration/setup honestly remember the last time they got a core dump? If I get one it's usually because of a shoddy (beta) video driver.

Come on, find something valid to make fun of.

Re:A new meaning for BSOD

[laserjet]

Yes, try plugging in 75 hard drives (5 JBODs) into a fibre channel HBA (emulex) and watch windows blue screen within about 10 seconds.

Re:A new meaning for BSOD

[cdrudge]

Yes...I get one about 1 a week. Random BSOD that don't seem to follow any particular pattern. I notice it slightly more occasionally when running WinMX then other applications, but not often enough to conclude it's the application. And I'm running your typical system, not 75 fibre channel drives like the other guy is.

2K and 98SE never seemed to have any problems with the same setup.

Re:A new meaning for BSOD

[Gerald]

I got one yesterday. I unplugged the USB<->serial dongle that came with my laptop, and POOF. Blue screen.

Re:A new meaning for BSOD

[Sj0]

happened two times today on a new dell laptop.

I can imagine it now

[Anonymous Coward]

To: hardware@microsoft.com
From: Linuxhacker@linuxhackers.domain.org

Dear Microsoft Corporation,
I'm writing to cordially request you to provide us with design documention for your series of wi-fi network cards.
We greatfully thankyou for your assistance.

Can anyone see why Microsoft is getting into the hardware business?

... well maybe

[Artful Codger]

but winmodems that used the CPU were a bloody disaster. I never saw one that worked right.

Please, whoever makes these new things, leave the CPU alone.

Re:... well maybe

[Anonymous Coward]

You're probably thinking of the Winmodems of old. They used to have badly programmed drivers which caused problems. Most of all, computers used to be many times slower than they are today. With a modern computer, a Winmodem can run as well as a normal modem, and without sacrificing ping times and system speed. I should know, I've got one, and it works fine.

Re:... well maybe

[VladDrac]

Actually, I read an article somewhere that claimed that winwifi (as in winmodem) cards would make sense. The basic ethernet stuff would still be in hardware, but things like WEP would be done in drivers, which would make them more easy upgradable. It wouldn't be asif the driver would have to the entire modem/sound emulation.

Re:... well maybe

[nuxx]

Actually, there's a good number of them used in notebooks today that work just fine. I personally think Winmodems were a bit ahead of their time. When they came out back in the days of 486s and Pentiums, they would regularly use 40% of the CPU, leaving not much left for anything you want to run. These days with >1GHz machines being found almost everywhere, it doesn't take much CPU to use a Winmodem. That, combined with the hugely improved driver support of Win98/2K/XP (over DOS and 3.xx) makes all the difference.

Re:... well maybe

[Sj0]

My motorola winmodem works great under linux, but has a problem with the speaker under Windows. Odd, eh?

Re:... well maybe

[Fembot]

whats really ironic is getting winmodems to work with windows XP/2k is really annoying

Re:... well maybe

[Corporate Troll]

I did have my share of problems.... And that about 4 weeks ago while reinstalling the machine of friend of mine. That's a machine that's about 1.5 years old, so you cannot blame the age.
I made a tri-boot machine out of it: W98 for games (he wanted it that way) and W2k for serious stuff and I gave him a Lycoris partition so that he actually gets a feel for Linux. He is a Marketing Major, so I think it would be a good thing to expose him to Linux. However the results I got were these:

• Win98: WinModem didn't detect. As I always go I don't use the CD delivered by the manufacturer but go straight to the website of the manufacturer and download it there. Yes, it was there and no it didn't work. Why is beyond me. I installed it from the CD and it worked but the performance is appaling including mulitiple disconnects.
• Windows 2000: Winmodem did detect as a HSF (or HFS, I don't remember) modem. I was happy and thought to give it a shot with the default drivers. No success. Back to the manufacturer website, downloaded the current drivers and those didn't work either. Had to use the CD once again. Works fine on W2k though.
• Lycoris: Winmodem didn't detect (as I expected), surfed to the manufacturers website where I downloaded a module that had to be compiled against the kernel. I did that but got the nice message that I couldn't use it because the Lycoris kernel was SMP and that was not supported by that module. So I had to recompile the kernel, but I somehow broke Lycoris completely that way (yes, my fault probably). So reinstall Lycoris, and then my options were over. I just let it be, he won't have a modem on Linux :-(

I realise it probably is just crappy hardware, but it still proves that Software Modems are not very reliable. What if he wants to upgrade to WinXP? Will it work? I highly doubt it. That is one of the biggest issues I have with softmodems. With hardware modems you just need a serial port and a generic driver and it will work reliably.
I warned him though that he has a crappy modem. Hope he will change it soon, but I don't think so. Saving 2$ on an IC with these kind of issues is just stupid. Sorry, for the rant...

Quit making Microsoft jokes

[xyzzy-ladder]

I am sure that Microsoft (no $, see?) will do a good job of buying wireless networking hardware from some communist Chinese company, and putting it in boxes marked "Microsoft".

Re:Quit making Microsoft jokes

[Fred IV]

Nah, IIRC, Microsoft prefers to exploit Mexican labor...for the X-Box anyway.

Welcome to our Monopoly

[d3xt3r]

Well, this is just more bad news as far as the non-M$ lovinig crowd is concerned. If Microsoft starts controlling the hardware as well as the OS, than it makes things that much easier for them to break (um, i mean, improve) currernt standards like 802.11.

Isn't this company a monopoly? Shouldn't someone be raising the red flag to this? Oh, right, I forgot, M$ is in bed with the justice department. Gotta love our free market capitalistic society that just doesn't work when it's being run by corrupt cronies.

Re:Welcome to our Monopoly

[krugdm]

Not to be a troll or anything, but how different is this from Apple and AirPort?

M$ just wants to see if they can get a piece of the WI-FI pie

I'd only be concerned if they decide to come up with their own flavor of 802.11 that only works with the latest version of the OS and forces you to upgrade to be able to keep using it.

Re:Welcome to our Monopoly

[d3xt3r]

The idea the MS will make proprietary extensions is exactly what concerns me. Besides, Apple is not a monopoly and Apple does not control 95% of the OS market. If Microsoft wants to cripple 802.11 by adding proprietary extensions, it can and it will.

If Apple cripples 802.11 in Air Port, they cripple their devices and you simply buy another vendor's product. However, MS will put the other vendors out of business.

Re:Welcome to our Monopoly

[SlightlyMadman]

Not to be a troll or anything, but how different is this from Apple and AirPort?

In about the same way that a grinning maniac holding a knife is different from the head chef at a 4 star restaraunt holding a knife. It's all about reputation. Microsoft has done this sort of thing in the past, and is fairly open about their intentions to continue doing similar things in the future. Apple has done no such thing.

Re:Welcome to our Monopoly

[guacamolefoo]

Microsoft does not need to cripple 802.11b. It is already crippled. It ships that way. WEP? Bah!

Future wireless hardware based on other standards may be at risk based on the MS extend, embrace, envelope, eat, expell process, however.

guac-foo

Re:Welcome to our Monopoly

[BusterB]

> Not to be a troll or anything, but how different is this from Apple and AirPort?

I have an Airport card and it works perfectly with a SMC barricade and other common wireless routers. We're just looking at Microsoft's past history of altering standards to work in incompatible ways and speculating that they could do the same with wireless standards. Hopefully, this will not be true, but history has been known to repeat itself.

Re:Welcome to our Monopoly

[BusterB]

> Hopefully, this will not be true, but history has been known to repeat itself.

Replying to my own post, look at your standard PC keyboard and tell me how Microsoft changed the standard there, oh, 7 years ago. I wonder if keyboard manufacturers have to pay royalties or copyright fees to use the windows logo on their keys.

Re:Welcome to our Monopoly

[Sj0]

Apparantly, they opened their specs for a while, but closed them quickly when they realized that all the clones being made sucked.

Re:Welcome to our Monopoly

[Corporate Troll]

Well, back when the Windows Key was introduced I wondered what it was useful for? I knew nobody who used it, until someone showed me "Windows-E". I use that regularly now. However it is still beyond me why it couldn't be done with Ctrl-E or Alt-E, or even Ctrl-Alt-E. Just as easy to me. (and just as obscure to any non-advanced user)
There is this other window key for the context menu but I never use it, nor have I seen anybody use it. It's just useless plastic.

On my PC I actually have a good old sturdy IBM keyboard without Windows-key. I think you need a weapon license for these IBM keyboards because I think you could easily smash someone's skull with it and the happily go on with coding. ;-)

Uh-oh...

[Hittite Creosote]

Microsoft believes the software provided with its home networking products will distinguish them from competitors' offerings.

So, will their software favour their hardware? How soon before the lawyers smell blood in the water?

MS Hardware? Lets hope not?

[ravic]

There are several of us out there that like MS Hardware so dont lump everything from this company into one bucket

If it was Cowboy Neal in his garage making them out of tin cans would you say the same thing?

Re:MS Hardware? Lets hope not?

[npietraniec]

If cowboy neal were building them in his garage out of tin cans we wouldn't have to worry about him ruining the future of wireless communication... So the answer to your question is no.

Re:MS Hardware? Lets hope not?

[Jondor]

oh sure, but mouses and keyboards usualy don't have big security-consequenses.

Look out Nokia!

[GMontag]

If you think wireless networking is easy as looking for the chalk marks now, just wait until MS style "security" becomes the standard!

Re:Look out Nokia!

[haggar]

What the hell is with you guys? Don't you know how to read the fungick article? Nokia wasn't calling warchalking a theft, the usage of the companie's wireless network for browsing the internet is what Nokia calls theft.

MS Hardware?

[FortKnox]

could they be testing the waters for making things like switches and routers in the future? Lets hope not.

What is up with all the negative articles on MS Hardware?
Take a look at your mouse! Have you ever used an MS Joystick?
Sure, lots of you have complaints with MS's OS's. Some of you hate the whole "Major Corportation" thing.
But, damnit, MS MAKES GOOD HARDWARE!
I've used MS Mice, and MS Sidewinders for YEARS and they still work GREAT!

Re:MS Hardware?

[BenjyD]

MS mice are good (especially the new optical ones), but their joysticks are poor compared to something like Saitek's (MS joysticks have very short throws, making fine control in flight sims harder).

I used to like the old-style MS natural keyboards, but the new ones have sacrificed build quality and replaced it with loads of pointless buttons no one uses.

Re:MS Hardware?

[SlightlyMadman]

I've had consistent problems with MS wheel mice. My biggest complaint is that the wheel is far too sensitive to being pressed. Since I use X, accidentally depressing the wheel while I scroll through some code means that I paste the contents of the clipboard right into the middle of it, often without noticing.

They also break. The last two I used had problems with where the wire meets the mouse. If you accidentally pull on the wire with a little force, the mouse just goes crazy, and is pretty much impossible to fix.

For good hardware, go to IBM. They make the best peripherals, hands down. Right now, I have a model M keyboard and one of the new IBM optical mice, which are great. The wheel is about the least sensitive I've seen (actually, it has about the same feedback as the keys on a model M), which takes a little getting used to, but is really great. It also looks damn cool (metallic blue & black, with no annoying lights peeking out the sides, like most opticals).

You could be right about the joystick, though. I haven't used one since the Atari 2600.

Re:MS Hardware?

[inkfox]

What is up with all the negative articles on MS Hardware? Take a look at your mouse! Have you ever used an MS Joystick? Sure, lots of you have complaints with MS's OS's. Some of you hate the whole "Major Corportation" thing. But, damnit, MS MAKES GOOD HARDWARE!

I've said many a time that I look forward to the day when Microsoft is fondly remembered as "that rather nice mouse manufacturer."

Re:MS Hardware?

[Billly Gates]

Their joysticks suck bigtime. Their phones failed. Their USB speakers also failed in the marketplace.

Back when I was a gamer, I bought the sidewinder to play descent1 on. It was virtually unplayable. The driver is what really sucked. If you hit the key to launch a missle for example, the driver would keep the botton on for several seconds depletting all your ammo. I had the same problem under duke nukem. The keys also stuck together occasionally so when rapid shooting was required, I could not shoot. Also Microsoft stopped supporting very quickly so if you have Windows2000 or XP, your screwed.

If you think MS makes good keyboard and mice, then your probably never tried anything by logitech. They are a much better vendor in my opinion and I like the way they feel.

Anyone who buys this new wireless network device might end up being quickly unsupported like their sidewinders, phones, and USB speakers if its not commercially sucessfull.

Re:MS Hardware?

[Herkum01]

There is a slight jump in technical skills from a Mouse and a Joystick, to lets say, Networking hardware! Cisco is on top of the networking world not because it easy.

Re:MS Hardware?

[Dutchmaan]

Yes.. Microsft makes good mice joysticks etc.. but these devices are limited in their ability to be "used" by Microsoft, that's why you are seeing negativity.

If the article was about an MS mouse it probably would have been very positive. I myself have two MS mice because I like them. However, I'm quite skeptical of MS hardware involving networks. MS has a long history of "using" whatever it can to manilpulate markets.. why should networking hardware be different.

Re:MS Hardware?

[shadow303]

One of the good things about IBM keyboards is that in a pinch, you can use one as a weapon. Very solid compared to the cheap keyboards I usually buy. I wish I could get one of those 80's vintage keyboards that weighed like 20 pounds and had a very pronounced click when you pressed the keys.

Re:MS Hardware?

[Dark Lord Seth]

Very true, I've been using MS mice for quite a while now and amazingly, they still work perfectly. (especially amazing if you consider how I mistreat my hardware) Also, what was quite amusing is that the MS mouse was easier to install under Linux then under Windows :)

Re:MS Hardware?

[SlightlyMadman]

They're not hard to find. As they're virtually intdestructable, most of the units produced are still around today. You can find them on ebay for about $20 without looking too hard. Just search for "model m".

Re:MS Hardware?

[quakeroatz]

Their joysticks suck bigtime...... The driver is what really sucked.

Yes those drivers did suck, but that was 5 years ago. I'm still using the original Sidewinder 3d Pro (5 years old!) and the drivers are built into XP and can be downloaded for all other WIn32 OSs. The drivers are simple, programmable and stable. All Sidewinder products are fully supported in 98,ME,2000,XP (not sure about 95).

Also Microsoft stopped supporting very quickly so if you have Windows2000 or XP, your screwed.
Wrong. The only reason you might have a problem getting sidewinder software is because the hardware is already built into your version of Windows. But go ahead a see for yourself:
http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/sidew inder/downl oads/302.asp
Yes 2000 and XP are missing, they don't need the software!

If you think MS makes good keyboard and mice, then your probably never tried anything by logitech. They are a much better vendor in my opinion and I like the way they feel.

Yes I've used Logitech keyboards, excellt quality but the keys are too small for my meaty fingers. Logitech mice are also good, but a little more fragile IMHO.

might end up being quickly unsupported like their sidewinders, phones, and USB speakers if its not commercially sucessfull.
I can't speak for the phones and speakers, but the joysticks, keyboards and mice are fully supported (have drivers) in all MS OSs including Linux!

Re:MS Hardware?

[arjennienhuis]

Descent should be played with a mouse anyway. The microsoft mice are OK, but I like logitech mice better.

Re:MS Hardware?

[beme]

Sure, mice, fine. What about the software that's going to run those switches and routers? Think they'll buy that from Cisco?

Re:MS Hardware?

[danamania]

What is up with all the negative articles on MS Hardware? Take a look at your mouse! Have you ever used an MS Joystick?

I don't so much worry about the quality of the hardware (though I don't use it myself), if switches/routers/etc are as good as the reputation of their other hard stuff then there's no problems there. I think what bothers many people is the issue of trust - how much extra power it gives MS when it comes to who-uses-what. There's not much they could do with a mouse, but would MS network gear attempt to control what network traffic you do and don't see according to MS's wishes? Maybe, maybe not, but I think if there's any company to be suspicious of in intent, it's MS.

a grrl & her server

Re:MS Hardware?

[gosand]

What is up with all the negative articles on MS Hardware? Take a look at your mouse! Have you ever used an MS Joystick? Sure, lots of you have complaints with MS's OS's. Some of you hate the whole "Major Corportation" thing. But, damnit, MS MAKES GOOD HARDWARE! I've used MS Mice, and MS Sidewinders for YEARS and they still work GREAT!

Sorry, keyboards, mice, and joysticks don't control your data. Bottom line is I don't trust Microsoft - for very good reasons. They have continuously proved they are untrustworthy, before/during/after being found guilty of illegal monopolistic practices by the Department of Justice. I don't trust them - not because I am some zealot - but because they have proven over and over again that I have no reason to trust them.

Yes, I use one of their mice, because
a. it is a good product
b. it doesn't have anything to do with security

Microsoft sucks at security, they even admit that their products aren't engineered for security. Sure, that was in reference to their Operating Systems, but do you think they will suddenly see the light when it comes to hardware? Microsoft is crafty, they wouldn't be getting into networking hardware at this stage of the game just for the sake of doing it. There is a reason, and they are trying to weasel their way in to gain control. Period.

Re:MS Hardware?

[Quixadhal]

Ah yes, the wonderful MS Sidewinder joystick... that would be the one that comes with drivers specifically for Windows 2000 which DO NOT WORK with Windows 2000!

Great product.

Of course I'd trust my sensitive corporate R&D data to a Microsoft Switch, given their proven track record on security.

Re:MS Hardware?

[Lectrik]

Quoth the thingy to which this post is in reply to

If you think MS makes good keyboard and mice, then your probably never tried anything by logitech. They are a much better vendor in my opinion and I like the way they feel.

Totally agree, I purchased a Logitech Trackman Marble FX a month into my freshman year (1998) and it's worked wonderfully since, especially the 4th configurable button. Yes i know the third button is configurable but i use apps that like middle button/ctrl-shift-right clicks

I can't wait

[Sp4c3 C4d3t]

I don't trust anything wireless. Not even a wireless mouse. Sorry, I just like having cords... it makes me feel more secure. Microsoft + wireless is NOT a good idea. However, it might be a great way to show Joe Sixpack that MS products are not secure, when he gets hacked by the script kiddie across the street.

Re:I can't wait

[esper_child]

cords are also good to make your system look impressive. The snake nest approach to wiring computers is one of the more entertaining ways to keep people from messing with your stuff. Who wants to mess with a bunch of wires that they aren't really sure of the distination.

I heard this on NPR

[teamhasnoi]

When you buy a MS Wireless Router, it comes packed in powdered chalk.

Can you imagine a full MicroSoft system

[SnarfQuest]

WinModem, WinPrinter, WinWifi, Win..., and running on Windows. It's going to be the slowest, most crashprone system around! Maybe this is why Captain Kurk could convince 5 different computers to self destruct, they were all running Windows on Win hardware. I'd also self destruct the first chance I had, if I had to deal with that.

Microsoft Platform

[Oculus Habent]

I'm sure Microsoft's software will work better with it's own hardware - they'll see to it.

As they push into the hardware market, their offerings may become preferred for their functionality. You may have noticed this simplicity with the Microsoft IntelliMouse and Internet Keyboard. Plug them in and they are detected and function properly - drivers are pre-installed mostly.

If their hardware is easier to configure, more people may buy it, ultimately convincing Microsoft to produce their own line of computers. Because all parts are built and tested within the company, people will say "It Just Works"

But then there will be people complaining that Microsoft is just money grubbing bastards and want all the profits for themselves...

anyone think of this?

[fstrat94]

Do you guys think this might tie in with the whole Palladium platform?

Re:anyone think of this?

[nege]

I call that comment "flamebait". ;)

I just can't believe it!

[Dutchmaan]

I just can't believe Microsoft will be making hardware for people who warchalk..

They must be thieves!

For those who may be humor impaired, this post was tongue in cheek

More NEW MS Innovations

[BurritoWarrior]

New bookmarks:
http://nouters.windowsupdate.com
http ://security.microsoft.com/routers

New Licensing:
Your router subscription has expired. Would you like to pay another $79 dollars for the next 12 months?

New Animation:
Paperclip: Hi! I see your trying to access the internet. Can I help you?

New Monitoring:
We have deteted a P2P application running on your network. Your router has been disabled. Please call 1-800-RIAA-Pal to correct this.

New Dialog boxes:
You are using an inferior browser. Are you SURE you want to do this? [Yes] [No]

Microsoft has designed hardware for a long time

[lseltzer]

The few of you who are in your 30's or older might remember that Microsoft has sold hardware since 1980. I doubt they ever owned a manufacturing facility, but they do design it themselves and it's manufactured to their specifications.

Remember the SoftCard, a Z80 card that let you run CP/M on an Apple II?

Microsoft mice have a great reputation and they're actually pretty innovative about them.

Re:Microsoft has designed hardware for a long time

[esper_child]

I remember the old mouses that they made for the AT that came with their own controller card. Infact it is one of my few mice that still works. Granted not to long ago their mice started sucking (probly 5-8 years ago), I switched to Logitech at that point which seemed to last longer for me, and only have replaced one of those. I know that they don't manufacture their own hardware anymore the outsource it, but I don't remember where they go.

Re:Microsoft has designed hardware for a long time

[inode_buddha]

Sigh..... I guess that makes me older.
Somewhere in the corner here I have Kaypro cp/m and DOS 2.1 on 5-1/4" disks...
I recall very well that hard disks were for rich people, but I had to have one anyway. They were so convenient and fast...
(sighs again).....

Re:Microsoft has designed hardware for a long time

[ninewands]

I'm surprised that the /. readership isn't better informed on the subject of Microsoft hardware ... their Sidewinders joysticks are/were the most rugged thing on the market, their mice are extremely reliable, and AFAIK, their keyboards are about the only ones that can still command $70-80 even in the discount stores.

Rugged, reliable, accurate and VERY tolerant of abuse ... pity they're not as demanding of their software.

This should have been expected

[MouseR]

Given Palladium, one should expect MS to start making networking hardware.

by producing hardware that refuses entry from any non-certified applications and hardware, they further secure their world (aka, pockets) within the constraints of their Palladium (money-making) scheme.

Re:This should have been expected

[BusterB]

> What a bunch of lies.

I think the more correct phrase is "What a bunch of speculation."

It's not a lie unless you know it is false. Do you have any of this hardware? How do you know anything unless you do? Product specifications are liable to change without notice.

Re:This should have been expected

[wfrp01]

If, as you say, you need a security co-processor, then how do you implement Palladium on existing hardware?

Re:This should have been expected

[tshak]

This is a GREAT conspiracy theory. No facts, but great! Bravo.

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Taking bets...

[shut_up_man]

How much chance is there of Microsoft releasing Linux drivers for these products, and would they be released under the GNU license?

MS WiFi

[SamSpectre]

It will probably be the first router, WiFi device that is not compatible with *ix, Mac, etc.

Ohh yes, only imagine

[tetrode]

You will get a Clippy with every router, proposing you like "I notice that you are trying to add v.w.x.y, shall I also add a.b.c.d for you?". You answer no, but somehow, the configuration seems to be changed, but you cannot exactly see how...

Also, you will get switches that you only edit via switchedit, a regedit decendant.

Plus of course, all the bugs you can eat, as usual ...

Of course, don't forget to add some 64 Mb of memory in your switch. Errm, yes that is per port, of course...

And in addition to that, if you don't pay your license fees, your routers will cease to function after exactly one year!

But wait, there is more! You can run a wordprocessor from your switches (upgrade required), and we even provided some games free of charge.

Thanks, but no thanks - I'll stay with Cisco...

Mark

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Re:Good

[Oculus Habent]

I went to disagree with you, but sadly, you are right in a way.

You cannot, however, give full credit to Microsoft for that. A fair share of the credit must indeed go to Apple for releasing AirPort - the first computer manufacturer to make it an option in all of their offerings. The iBook was first in September 1999, closely followed by the PowerMac G4 (AGP Graphics) the iMac (Slot Loading) and completing the lineup in Feb. 2000 with the PowerBook (FireWire). The Xserve doesn't offer AirPort, but then, it's a rackmount server.

Like many things in the computer industry (I sense strong opposition just ahead) Apple made it happen, Microsoft made it big.

One word...

[shumacher]

Apple.

Well...

[Seawolf359]

All me and my roommate could thing when we heard this was.

All your data belong to us...

Oh well

Isn't it just marketing through hardware branding?

[Boss, Pointy Haired]

Aren't all M$ hardware activities just low (zero?) cost ways of getting the name "Microsoft" written in as many places to do with computers as possible?

Nothing to see here. Move along.

Even on the Mac?

[yerricde]

I'm sure if they make hardware, they'll make it compatiable to work with *other* operating systems. Right?

Remember: Microsoft still makes Office for Mac OS X. I don't think Microsoft would go to the trouble of requiring a copy of Connectix Virtual PC and Microsoft Windows for the Mac version of the product.

Re:Good

[Lussarn]

802.11b is plauged by bad (as in broken) encryption making it easy to sniff. Don't know if there is another encryption standard yet. Most hardware offer other encryption but I don't think they speak well together. This is probably one major reason why it has not took of more.

read more here.

As it is now you could use it but you have to trust your wireless net as much as you trust the internet, which means heavy firewalling.

In the time-honored MS tradition...

[SwedishChef]

I wonder who they'll steal the design from for this product.

MS hardware not so bad...

[gatkinso]

Xbox is OK, the keyboards are good, and their mice rule.

Yay for MS hardware.

[British]

What do you expect on a pro-linux site when there's an MS article? About 99% of the comments are just jabs at MSFT that have been done hundreds of times by Linux zealots. Nope, that routine never gets old around here.

As for MS hardware, I am most impressed with the IntelliMouse. I just wish(is there one already?) MS made drivers where you could have mouse "profiles". Currently, the thumb buttons only work for IE, where they would be great as undo/redo buttons in Photoshop, PSP, etc, or set 'em to what you like. I remember doing some tweak to turn the middle button(wheel button) on my Logitech mouse into a double-click action.

As for their MS keyboard, I just got one in my cubicle, and wonder why there's a "stop" button(I'm assuming for IE). Escape, located less than an inch away from it functions just fine as "Stop". Back and Forward are redundant since you can just Alt+leftarrow & Alt+rightarrow. Hopefully with a bit of searching I can make the buttons do whatever I want, and I'll just relabel them.

Re:Yay for MS hardware.

[questionlp]

I have the MS Trackball Explorer and I mapped the two aux buttons for Copy (C-c) and Paste (C-v). In the more recent version of the IntelliPoint software, there is a setting to allow "program-specific button settings". In my case, for Winamp, the two buttons are keyed for Prev/Next. You can probably fiddle around with the settings to your liking.

Re:Yay for MS hardware.

[xphase]

The drivers for my IntelliMouse allow me to set the side buttons to do what ever I want(ie. Ctrl-Z), or actual actions for Microsoft's Products. I turned them off as I kept bumping them.

*NOTE* I'm at work and can't check the drivers to make sure I'm not dreaming. Being at work also means that I miss my mouse wheel, as Sun Crossbow mice don't have wheels(but are better than the type5 mice).

Re:Yay for MS hardware.

[pod]

To have the scroll wheel and thumb buttons work in applications that do not directly support them (like IE and Explorer), you need to download the InteliPoint software (just go to http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/ and browse around). You know it's running when you see a 'blue circle with a mouse in it' type icon in the icon tray.

Making It Happen

[Oculus Habent]

Sorry about the self-disclaimer, but I wanted to clarify.

I don't mean Apple invented everything they "made happen" - only that they prepared the way for the popularity of many innovations.

GUI, Multimedia, networking, USB, FireWire, AirPort...

--
Now back to your regularly scheduled ranting.

Don't knock MS - knock the router people!

[mccalli]

I think Microsoft have been experiencing a certain amount of frustation t the slow response of router manufacturers to such things as UPnP.

Microsoft need UPnP to succeed if Messenger is to realise its full potential. They probably need it for other planned projects too. I imagine they're entering the market in order to drive adoption of these standards more quickly.

I have an SMC Barricade 7004AWBR. I've been waiting an age for the firmware update that finally provides me with UPnP. It hasn't come. I rather suspect it may never come. For all the natty little plastic boxes, I honestly don't think the networking people are used to the speed of the consumer market. Microsoft certainly is, and I can see any routers it might produce being updated a lot faster than many of the current offerings.

Cheers,
Ian

Subspace communication

[Maran]

This is just Microsoft's way of linking all the Borg Drones (aka Windows PCs) into the hive mind ^_^

If you suddenly notice IE going to sites other than the one you wanted, don't worry: Your Drone's just been consulting with all the other Drones, and the consensus was you wanted to visit Microsoft.com rather than linux.org.

On the plus side, this means new technologies will be assimilated much easier, and your PC will be able to repair itself using the power of the group mind.

Maran

MS Makes Quality Hardware!

[quakeroatz]

I'm looking forward to any hardware MS produces, they have a fabulous track record for hardware.

Intellimouse: A huge favorite for FPS heads since Qtest. Now outdated, but clearly a legend in its own.

Intellimouse Explorer: Still the best optical mouse on the market and the new 3.0 version is much improved.

Flightsticks & Gamepads: Superb durability and simplicity, compatible nearly every game, excellent Linux drivers (not thx to MS). I would never venture with a Logitech or Thrustmaster again.

Keyboards: Light, tactile, comfortably angled keys, function buttons that can be reassigned in many OS's incl. Linux.

Warranty: I buy all my MS hardware at Staples and get instant replacements whenever needed, though I've had no problems to date. I did return an intellimouse, but that had more to do with spilled beer than faulty hardware.

I may have my beefs with MS software, but all of the MS hardware I've used has been first class.

Re:MS Makes Quality Hardware!

[freaker_TuC]

If I am not wrong Microsoft's mice are made by Logitech and being labeled Microsoft ...

Re:MS Makes Quality Hardware!

[quakeroatz]

You're wrong, Logitech and MS manufacture their input hardware separately. MS and Logitech are top tier competitors in the input device arena.

Re:MS Makes Quality Hardware!

[quakeroatz]

And you're so naiive you beleive everything you find on google. If you were so sure about this you would have posted a link and not copped out with an AC post.

Like who?

[Andy Dodd]

Usually when some manufacturer OEMs something, you can find the noname OEM version elsewhere if you look.

Have *YOU* ever seen a mouse that looks like the Intellimouse Explorer? If MS just OEM-brands other people's hardware, then why were Microsoft mice the only all-surface-optical (As opposed to the old Sun grid-optical) mice for quite some time until Agilent's optical mouse reference chipset/lens design came out?

If MS is rebranding their hardware, show me proof. Show me WHO they're rebranding other than saying, "oh, I think they're rebranding someone". It's usually pretty easy/obvious due to the hardware being physically identical to a few others on the market. (All those cheapie opticals are all the same, but MS and Logitch mice are all unique)

Good examples of OEMing that's easy to find:
Palm III/IBM Workpad. (I think some Workpads were Palm V clones too) - Same shape, the Workpads happened to be black instead of grey.

Compaq printers - These are obviously rebranded Lexmarks.

AT&T printers - This was MANY years ago, but their dot-matrix printers were either rebranded OKI or Epson printers, can't remember.

I normally dislike MS, but their input devices division is the only portion where all the crap they spew about innovating is true. They DID come up with the wheel idea. (Which I passed off as a gimmick until I played with one at work - Now I can't survive w/o the wheel.)

I'll bet this figures into the "Mira" strategy

[lcarstensen]

The "Mira", a VNC-knock-off hardware/software packaged concept, should first start shipping around Christmas time this year. It uses 802.11b wireless, XP Pro, Microsoft's RFB protocol from a Windows CE .Net (4.0) device to let you use your PC from anywhere in your house.

This packaged concept is obviously too difficult for most low-end consumers to assemble themselves, so it makes sense that Microsoft offer a wireless hardware component that they can borg more completely into the whole. Eventually all of the other hardware manufacturers will have to adopt whatever extensions Microsoft introduces in this hardware/software combo in order to offer their customers an equivilently pleasing out of box experience, and Mira gets locked in on the consumer market.

January announcement

WinHEC PowerPoint presentation

Very dangerous.

[IGnatius T Foobar]

This isn't a mouse or a "natural keyboard" we're talking about here. This is stuff which requires actual drivers. Complicated drivers.

Keep something in mind: when Microsoft released its previous generation of hardware (mice, keyboards, joysticks, etc.) they weren't thinking about Linux at the time. They felt confident that they owned the PC space. Nowadays, even though they still have the monopoly more or less intact, they do know that Linux is looking to break into that space, and has a better than fair chance of doing so.

Microsoft needs to de-commoditize the PC platform.

The best way to de-commoditize the PC platform is to turn it into the Windows PC Platform. Palladium is a big part of this, to be sure. Whatcha wanna bet that these new Win-Fi(tm) devices are going to tie into the Palladium infrastructure for security? And of course their chipsets will be full of Innovative Microsoft Patented Technology. Try to write a Linux driver... get smacked by the DMCA.

Over the last year or two, some of the WinModem chipset makers have started to warm up to Linux -- by releasing specs or by writing actual drivers. You can be sure that if Microsoft is the chipset maker, the binary-only, Windows-only drivers will come directly out of Redmond.

Re:Very dangerous.

[kawika]

Microsoft started making mice in the mid-1980s mainly because it was a Windows 1.0 enabler. Over the years it's been the same basic tenet: sell cool hardware mainly to increase the attractiveness of Windows as a platform.

BTW, the same goes for Intel, think about the non-processor things they've done. Most of them were related to improving speeds and feeds to make sure the CPU stayed the bottleneck and you'd get the next faster processor.

I don't see this as a bad thing--yet. Most of the 802.11b stuff I've tried is a nightmare to set up with WEP, and sets itself up in insecure mode by default. I know Microsoft can do a better job with setup; perhaps they'll set an example that will get others to improve as well.

Over time, any worthwhile product becomes commoditized. If Microsoft's wireless card is the next Microsoft Mouse then others will copy it. If it's the next Microsoft Phone then they won't.

Re:Very dangerous.

[Fjord]

I think the problem is that these devices, while including WEP, will probably also include some other security "standard". At first the WEP stuff may be easy to use (along with the PEAP stuff), but MS will judge how well it can nudge people toward PEAP as time goes on, making it the default, etc etc.

Also, if they do make a "winmodem" style adapter, then that also ties into the monopoly more. I wouldn't mind any of this is the standards were open and freely implementable at the OS level (like any other hardware company would do), but these devices can work as a monopoly protector.

It is something to consider. I already own 802.11b hardware, so it's not a big issue for me.

Totally Offtopic!

[camken]

sorry about being so far off-topic, but i just had to say that after reading your sig i had to go rent spaceballs... it had been too long since i'd seen it. Thanks for reminding us all about a great movie woefully lost to hollywierd.

Re:Totally Offtopic!

[rmohr02]

I rented it twice then realized it'd be better to just buy it.

This is mostly non-news...

[Future Linux-Guru]

Microsoft is sotware company first and foremost. They make these moves into hardware where they see a niche they can fill, or where it will push adoption of more of their software. Cisco produces IOS. Are they a software company? Nope---it pushes their hardware. Same thing with MS, but in reverse. /. and crew are sensationilizing this a little more than it needs to be. I'd expect MS to do well with the consumer market, as long as the hardware is up to snuff.

Look at the products, not the sticker

[tutal]

OK, so I need to rant. The Slashdot croud sometimes has their head up their asses when it comes to technology companies. Some hate/love everything one particular company does. But the problem is you condemn the product because it is made by a company rather than look at each product made by the company.

Case and point the Xbox. It is hands down the best video game system on the market. MS did their homework with this one. They looked at the little things, longer cords so the unit can sit on a shelf, bigger controlers for the bigger hands of the american market, top of the line graphics. And for the 99.9% of video game players that don't hack their systems, the license restrictions are not a big deal. (I realize that game selection differs, and for a FF player a PS2 is a better system)

Now look at their recent OS's. XP as an OS has improved exponentially over their old ones (NT/9x). Granted there are the security holes, but hey, us Linux users can't claim to have a perfect system when SSH has holes in it.

Now it comes to the defining line between MS and Linux. $$. MS has every right to charge for their product. The US is a "free market" (capitolist) society. And frankly Linux companies in the same light can charge what they want for Linux distros as well (granted they are governed by the GPL, so there are other restrictions). But still when it comes down to it, the reason why I use Linux is twofold 1) Price and 2) Development tools (at the same price).

Who knows, their switches, routers, wireless appliances might really be what the home network market needs (I know.... Airport). Just wait and look at the product before casting stones.

Re:Look at the products, not the sticker

[Sp4c3 C4d3t]

Xbox the best console on the market? That's certainly arguable. Xbox has to be the WORST console on the market right now. Hardware doesn't make the console, games do. There is one game on the Xbox that interests me, and it isn't even out yet. However, the Playstation2 and Gamecube have many gems already...

And the Xbox controllers just plain SUCK! I can barely fit my hand on it! The plastic it's made of feels very low-quality as well, and yes, the plastic quality does matter.

Second point... XP has not improved all that much over the other Windows releases. I used XP for an extended period of time, and it seems like nothing more than Windows 2000 with a Fisher Price gui. I'd gladly use Windows 2000 over it any day, as it is a smaller install.

Third point... MS may have the right to charge for their products, but is it moral to charge $500 for a copy of Windows XP (I live in Canada, and that would be the price of XP Pro)? Then there's Office, which adds even more to that price... then there's 3rd party programs with high price tags. If you legitimately pay for all of your software, it doesn't take long for your software to be worth more than your hardware! Personally, I think something is wrong when that happens. Piracy would be cut down if software was cheaper.

Re:Look at the products, not the sticker

[tutal]

Point one. Invalid. Games can be ported, its like saying that Linux/Solaris/MacOS suck because _______isn't available on that platform. Granted the XP controlers are bigger, but that is a design decision: Americans have bigger hands, and thus the controller is more ergonomically designed. Plus if you want smaller controllers, get the Japanese one.

Point two. True, XP (initially) was 2000 SP2 with a new GUI. But that GUI is actually more efficient (albiet not as efficient as OSX). Additionally, size of install is not even an issue, when 80G costs under $120 (US).

Point three. That's capitalism. Ever drive a Mercury. They are just more expensive versions of Fords. Then take a Jaguar, you can pay over $100k for a car, the thing that makes it so expensive is not just the quality, but also the brand identity. You can make similar comparisons to any other product. It is simple economics. The price you pay is related to its brand identity. The $500 you pay for XP covers both the cost of the development, but also things like marketing and anti-piracy measures. I realize that's a hefty price, but hey no one is forcing you to buy it. You are intelligent, build your own box and trow Linus or *BSD on it. Download OpenOffice if you want document compatibility. But don't complain about the price, because frankly there are alternatives for less or free.

Finally you state that piracy would be cut down if the software would be less expensive. This is a catch 22. The reason it is so expensive is because of piracy. Plain and simple there is NO moral justification for piracy (software or music). If you want free software, then use free software, if you want to download music, download music from an artist that allows it.

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Microsoft can do no right

[DCookie]

Why does every new business move Microsoft makes be "testing the waters" for their galactic-take-over-the-world-armageddon device...

Why can't some (see _most_) of Slashdot readers allow Microsoft to be the capatilistic company that it is and sell products? If their products suck, don't buy them (as long as you have a CHOICE -- this is key and the crux of the big legal debate). If they are good... MS deserves to earn from them (see capatilism).

Proper hardware documentation

[dpilot]

Does Microsoft properly document their hardware, or is the documentation, "How to install the Windows drivers."

I'd never in a month of Sundays expect them to furnish Linux drivers, though maybe *BSD drivers in two weeks of Sundays. But does Microsoft properly document their hardware so the community can write its own drivers? I know people use MS keyboards and mice with Linux, but those had well entrenched standards. What about getting the extra bells and whistles working?

How about shipping the documentation with a "You may not use this documentation to develop GPL-licensed drivers!" clause?

Re:Proper hardware documentation

[joemc79]

A router shouldn't require drivers.

Re:Proper hardware documentation

[dpilot]

Agreed. But I thought there was something about wireless cards, too. Those would, and there was talk about winmodem-like in there.

Will work only with MS networking

[gelfling]

And if you want to 'share' a broadband uplink I'm almost sure they will figure out a way to embed licence control and DRM. Which is really the point anyway, isn't it?

Microsoft Strategy

[Ctrl-Z]

Microsoft has always been slow at moving into the hardware market... could they be testing the waters for making things like switches and routers in the future?

If Microsoft has been slow at entering into a market, it is because they wait for technology to be established, and then they improve on that technology. I don't think that they will be making switches and routers, because they can't really create an improved version of those products that consumers will notice.

On the other hand, wireless technology is starting to become noticed by consumers and Microsoft wants people to associate their name with quality. Of course, it's 90% marketing and 10% actual quality. Look at the Microsoft Natural Keyboard, or the line of Microsoft mice. Sure, they didn't make them right away; they waited for their competitors to make the mistakes that they could then improve upon.

Actually, this strategy could be used to describe pretty much all of their products. They're not the first to do something. Microsoft is very good at reinventing ideas and selling them to consumers.

Just my opinion.

What about a backdoor like NSA KEY?

[sinan]

Do they have a back door into the router?

How could one verify , if there is a back door or not?

http://encryption_policies.tripod.com/industry/c am pbell_270400_microsoft.htm

sinan

Intent

[limekiller4]

michael wrote:
"...could they be testing the waters for making things like switches and routers in the future?"

Uhh. Could they be seeing that (a) wireless is the Next Big Thing and (b) this is the perfect time to introduce DRM where others are hesitant to do so?

This is a no-brainer given their history.

Xbox + networking + ??? = a grab for the home

[natersoz]

MSFT has figured out that the end game includes appliances in a big way. If they ever got their shit together, we'd all be doomed. If you control the net box - aka "Residential Gateway" - you not only gain a product line but access to the consumer's appliances. Palladium? yes, but much more than just the desktop, which is a saturated market. The TV (Xbox), the "eHome" crap, the branded strategy from server to home.

MSFT has failed large before in the appliance space - notably nuking WebTV. And they didn't learn squat from the experience. I hope they fail again.

Typical

[MuMart]

There was a story last year that mentioned Microsoft was working on Win-WiFi

Cheaper to produce my arse. They're just trying to lock out Linux users again.

This is to be expected. Hardware support is a weakness of Linux, so MS are moving into the hardware maket in an attempt to make cards that not only have no official Linux support, they will be so locked up with patents that it'll be impossible to provide a Linux driver.

What's so difficult?

[Venotar]

> The company concluded that one problem came >from networking products that are too difficult >to use

What's so difficult about networking products? Plug in the card, depmod, then insmod (or run your OS/distro of choice's little auto configurator) then ifconfig. A good card by a good vendor "just works."

Hell, I purchased a Xircom Access Point the other day - plugged it into my hub and it worked. Period. Absolutely no work involved (I know, I know - you have to do some configuration to activate WEP + Cisco's little proprietary WEP extensions, and the random DHCP requests it sends out when it's not configured are minorly irritating; but really - how many of MS's target market are going to get those configs correctly even with a wizard to help?)

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Yet another wireless authentication standard !

[sjhwilkes]

MS have gone on record as saying they want to secure home wireless networks, their solution for this is going to be PEAP, yet another variation on EAP (Extensible Authentication Protocol).

This is a PIA, already we have the certificate based EAP-TLS (supported in XP & CE4.0), EAP-MD5, the Cisco LEAP (supported everywhere but only with a Cisco client card), 802.1x - now a standard but not supported in it's vanilla format anywhere much yet, etc.

Guess what the cross platform support will be for PEAP ?

I'm just glad Linksys and Dlink exist, because it's going to be difficult for MS to displace them in the market, and dominate with a non-standard product.

These may also have a variation on uPnP, but I don't see how that will fit in with the security focus.
Palladuim is miles off, look for that in the updated Christmas '03 product range.

Palladium or plain DRM? (Re:This should have been)

[gera0ul]

IIRC, Palladium works on the workstation (probably servers too, but lets just talk of the client side for now). Now, this thing could be implemented totally independently of palladium.But then, it'll do wonders for M$ if its used _with_ palladium.Its just plain DRM at the NIC/Router level.

I agree, that the end is the same(DRM), and the approach is _very_ similar(at the hardware level), but this looks somewhat different than palladium to me. I'm no palladium expert, infact, i'm not an expert in anything, but I see a slight difference between this and palladium. And this looks much more horrible than palladium itself. We had talks of "I am safe from palladium! I use *nix/OSX/whatever" and "we'll stick to old computers" on various fora, including /. but then think of it - we'll be taken in the loop whenever the ISP or the univ in my case decides to buy the M$ routers. There goes the traffic on Napster/Gnutella ports. I bet that it'll be logged and sent to M$ at the very least. Oh and before you think of using a different proggie which uses a different port, be aware that M$ can upgrade those routers with a patch or something blocking out ports based on the logs that they get. Its _possible_. And we, the non-M$ ppl could be locked out (i think i'm thinking too far on this, but then this is M$ we're talking about), for the router wouldnt allow the non-M$ NICs in our machines to interface. Or to appear less evil, and to make M$-NICs appear better, it can just give them a "preference" over the others. Why not? It's happened with browsers and apps!

Maybe I'm paranoid. But What if i'm not? *shudder*

--gera.

Kind of funny

[afidel]

Sine they use Cisco wlan equipment themselves on their corporate campus, in fact they have one of the largest wlan delpoyments ever. Maybe this is targeted at the home market? I would guess so based on the market analysis provided, they give Linksys a lead in the wlan space so it has to be the home market as Cisco is the leader in the corporate space.

I found this link

[tylerdave]

I found this link that says that Microsoft may be sexually transmitted. Maybe that's why it is so rampant?

MS May Be Sexually Transmitted - Doctor

I hate to admit it...

[TheLoneCabbage]

While I revile in so many ways everything that they stand for... I can't say that I've ever had a problem with their hardware.

I love my MS Ergo Keyboard (even mapping the MS key's work for me in Linux). I've never found a better KB by anyone. (or for nearly as cheap).

Their joysticks are good too. Sometimes even sexy.

Granted these are simple things, and I'm sure that I'm going to Hell for giving money to MS, but it does us no credit to pick on them with no reason.

Let them fail miserably at this task, then we can hate them for it. until then I have no shortage of complaints for MS bashing.

Re:I hate to admit it...

[Phil the Canuck]

I have an MS USB optical mouse. I really like it. Plus, it's never (so far) required a secrity patch.

Re:I hate to admit it...

[Andrewkov]

Their joysticks are good too. Sometimes even sexy

That's bordering on gay, dude!

Re:I hate to admit it...

[opkool]

With that nick?

I betcha TheLoneCabagge is part of LinuxGrrrrls

Re:Isn't it just marketing through hardware brandi

[Urban Garlic]

Maybe for PC peripherals, but one of the noteworthy features of their XBOX hardware venture is just how infrequently and insignificantly the name "Microsoft" appears on the box and in the ads. Compare, for instance, the number of occurrences of the word "Sony" on a PS2. It seems clear that it's "XBOX" that they're trying to brand.

Well this figures.

[miffo.swe]

""There was a story last year that mentioned Microsoft was working on Win-WiFi - 802.11b hardware that exported some of the processing to the CPU in much the same manner as a winmodem, and thus was cheaper to produce.""

To make use of a modern CPU on a desktop is really hard unless you compile or game. An even slower windows would be hard to do without deliberatly toss in loops into it. Intel and Microsoft lives on the upgradecycle and without it they would both be much smaller since you wouldnt buy a new computer every year, just new software like games etc. Right now i cant think of a single application that i use that can take advantage of my current 650 Mhz even. When i compile something bigger i do it over night.

The only application that demands something faster than todays 2 Ghz is poorly written games. My solution would be to write them better but some people tends to think throwing more hardware on fautly code is an excellent solution.

Microsoft needs to use all the cpu cycles it can and still perform good in benchmarks. This way of loading the processor with other tasks better done in hardware than in software fits their and Intel perfectly. Intel needs somthing that demands faster CPUs and Microsoft need new hardware that ships with their OS.

Re:For the love of all that is good and holy...

[jedman]

It's my experience that our friends in the United Kingdom use plural verbs following the names of companies. I imagine this is due to the fact that companies are usually composed of many people...

Yay! A new way for worms to spread.

[zerofoo]

Great, now the embedded web server in my MS Access Point(TM) will be able to spread Nimda and Code Red to everyone within my WAP's range.

This should be fun.

-ted

SURE!

[Ender Ryan]

1. Don't try to upgrade a machine running in a remote area, ie. without a telephone or net access

2. Try moving your windows code over to another platform

3. 64 bit? What's a bit? Oh yeah... microserf: well, we can sorta kinda do 64 bit!

4. Try running windows on some really huge hardware, ie. something not x86 or emulating it

5. inverse of 4, ie. a pda or some such thing, without having to purchase an expensive xp embedded license or some such nonsense

6. try stripping windows xp down to nothing but what you need to setup a masquerading router, running on a 486

7. try administering 20 machines remotely, over a 56k modem

8. try all of the above while spending less than $50

9. Microsoft didn't disclose all of the windows api's? awww... too bad...

10. windows is quickly becoming an anti-consumer operating system, instead of enabling users, it's going to intentionally limit users, doesn't sound too appealing to me...

ALWAYS ask "How does this protect Windows?"

[Locutus]

and you will usually see the light, ie why Microsoft does project X or Y. In this case, IGnatius T Foobar has the same thoghts as I. Smaller, cheaper, faster, and more secure systems are turning up all over the place and they are not running Windows. By getting into the communications stream they are attempting to isolate those devices and isolated devices will give way to connected devices.

Why do you think Microsoft is dragging their feet with Bluetooth? It's not all about it being not ready, that's never stopped them before. It's because Bluetooth works best with low power devices and Windows does not "do" low power devices. When was the last time you saw a Windows device running off 2 AAA batteries?

The original Halloween document stated that they needed to control the protocols and this is not too far from it. It's what transmits/receives the protocols....

This is dangerous folks, IMHO. Win-Fi costs can be quite low to the user because Microsoft is going to absorb the development costs using monopoly money. If every machine ships with Win-Fi onboard, with MS security protocols, our full fledged WiFi cards will be left out unless we pay the extra $$ for another access point too.

It's dangerous if it works. IMHO.

LoB

A different company

[InnovATIONS]

Microsoft, when it comes to hardware, is almost like a whole different company. They seem quite content to not be the only mouse manufacturer or the only joystick manufacturer, or the only keyboard manufacturer, etc. Usually when microsoft enters a hardware field it is because there are certain features that it wants to standardize, such as wheels on mice or the two windows keys on keyboards or such. What I am hoping that they are doing with this is encouraging wireless LANs that are out-of-the-box secure to become the standard.

You funny guy!

[fire-eyes]

Anyone with a clue about security woudn't dare purchase networking hardware made by MS.

Of course, I feel the same about their operating systems. Doh, I just described most MS admins. Truth sucks, doesn't it?

Ignorance

[Anonymous Coward]

That they don't manufacture keyboard and mouses is a given, almost nobody manufactures retail goods. Therefore, I'll assume you were trying to say in your second point that MS isn't the designer of the keyboard and mouse they sell.

If that was, hopefully, your point then I do hope that ignorance is bliss to you. Most of the hardware is designed in house by a bunch of people whose job it is to "design hardware"...

wow...

you learn something new every day, don't you?

Now you might not believe me (a lot of people on /. don't believe much about MS, your loss) so let's do a such on google with "intellimouse hardware design". One of the first links to pop up is

http://www.cesweb.org/awards/innovations/innovat io ns_2001/hardware.asp

scroll down to the intellimouse description. You even have the name of the people who designed the mouse... wow...

I'll let you track down whether they still work or ever worked for MS. After all, this is /., maybe you believe they're make believe individuals MS created to steal the credit from some small startup company that came up with the idea for that mouse. Then again, you might want to schedule an appointment with your psychatrist.

P.S.: doesn't take much effort to use google before stating falsehoods.

MS Home Networking

[michael_cain]

Microsoft has, or has announced, multiple devices for the home that can do more if appropriate networking is available. XBox and the announced tablet device are two such devices. In many (most?) households, wireless is going to be the technology of choice for connecting the household PC and these other devices. Some of the services that MS will want to run between the devices will require certain capabilities. For example, streamed video from the PC to the XBox will require quality of service and DRM guarantees. By introducing their own line of hardware, MS assures themselves that wireless networking implementing all of those portions of the standards will be available.

Just one paranoid line of reasoning...

Good Hardware

[roccothegreat]

Are they going to make a "Force-Feedback" router? Like when you go to a WAREZ site to download some MS Software, the router vibrates
and brings down the house. That would be entertaining, except for a lot of people would be homeless!

Wish I still had my Sidewinder-Pro FFB!

winmodem parallel is frightening

[PhotoGuy]

Oh great, MS will push their CPU-based Win-WiFi devices, get the bundled with all the makers overwhich they exert control or pressure, and Linux will have all the grief we've had with WinModems, all over again in the networking world. This is a powerful anti-competitive move by MS, if they truly are winmodem-ish.

802.11x

[randomErr]

Isn't MicroSoft developing it's flavor of 802.11 called 802.11x

It was suppose to ship with XP but they had other things to work on in XP.

FYI

[daveshih]

Here is the official MS site describing it:
http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/broadbandne twork ing/

I (and many others) beta-tested this thing and I'm glad to report that it is a well made and tested product. Sometimes I just wonder why there are so many weird preconceptions about a Microsoft product. Some of the /. comments are just outrageously bizzar...

Oh my gosh

[scumdamn]

I've seen the hardware. The home wireless network kit is a PC card, a USB adapter, an a router with 4-port switch (kind of like the Linksys BEFW11S4). The router is VERY small, but it's all really just standard stuff. The industrial design is very good and the software for it is pretty. It's not proprietary in any way, and actually looked really nice.

Someone to blame

[anthony_dipierro]

How long before we have a Slashdot story about how it's Microsoft's fault when someone steals credit card numbers from a business sending them unencrypted over a wide-open network.

At least now we only have to read mainstream news stories about how it's the fault of the guy with the chalk.

I read it wrong from the start

[JudgeFurious]

I was scanning down the list of stories and actually read "Microsoft to make wireless networking hard" and I didn't notice I'd read it wrong until the second pass.

The way I saw it the first time "seemed" right.

Re:WinMouse no prob. But WinMODEMs???

[MickLinux]

I guess most of you aren't remembering those Lucent closed-architecture WinModems, that -- just like upcoming M$ plans, shipped the jobs off to the CPU. Even under windows, it couldn't hold a link, and they went bad quickly (expected lifetime 2 yrs). Sure, the WinMouse is no problem, and I'm willing to bet that the WinKeyboard may have worked as a regular keyboard, and done allright. But you've gotta compare apples to apples, not marbles. For that, you've gotta remember the WinModem. I, for one, was impressed enough to remember "never touch Lucent". And when the VP of Sales at Lucent became the President of HP [and incidently the old guard fled for their lives] I immediately said "caution buying HP products.] I, for one, will stay away from CPU eating brain-dead closed-source patentfee architecture. It just isn't smart. Come to think of it, going with M$ isn't smart. Their cut-rate word processor cost us over $7000 ($30k if you count lost contracts) because they can't -- or refuse to -- fix the document corruption problems that Word generates for 30-page, 800k documents.

Re:Good

[r0gue_]

what about some type of lower-layer encryption akin to IPSEC?

And we thought that 802.11b was already insecure

[opkool]

Now, with a little help from our friends at Microsoft, 802.11b will be trully insecure.

Can we see as an attempt from Microsoft to "open" their products?

If they don't do OpenSource, will Microsoft achieve "Openness" through MS-Really Insecure Wireless?

AYB EULA ?

[opkool]

It's your, and not you're. Learn that they're different.

your - belonging to you
you're - you are. (just as in learn that they're different)
...like in this sentence?

Cats: All your Base Are Belong To Us

Maxwell's Equations

[DarcyJCurrey]

I'm sure M$ are planning to make subtle changes to Maxwell's equations so that their wireless EMR will not work with the rest of the worlds EMR... On the other hand, maybe that could open up more of the spectrum ;)

It's Actually *Good* Hardware

[emmetropia]

Hey Guys, I, sadly, work on the support team for this hardware. It's actually a pretty good home router. Admitidly, the network cards and adapters aren't the most non-MS-friendly hardware, but the routers, both of them, are pretty good. The WiFi router is standard 802.11b, uses standard WEP, allows MAC filtering, and will work (or so we're told) with all other standad gear, regardless of who makes it.

MS actually wants to pair some of this hardware up with it's MSN DSL subscribers. If you have MSN DSL, or know anyone that does, this isn't the best of ideas to look at right now, seeing as you get a modem stuck on a netmask of 255.255.255.252 (doesn't matter if you buy the router ;) and some of the worst NAT you'll ever see. They *are*, however, doing a beta trial right now, with a new modem, which, while still on the same netmask, allows you to drop a DMZ to the one available inside ip. So if you had the new modem (probably won't be rolled out by MSN until feburary) and this/any other networking package, you'd be able to get by pretty well. That is, of course, you can deal with their nazi-esque line provisioning, with a max downstream of 640kbps. Dah well, can't win'em all. But I'll say one more time that it's actually nice hardware.

Re:It's Actually *Good* Hardware

[emmetropia]

oh, I forgot to mention one thing. The setup for the hardware (you know you don' need it, but if you want to run it) won't work on win2k, or nt, and if i'm not mistaken, 95, so it's not really MS Friendly either. Whodathunkit?

Re:It's Actually *Good* Hardware

[rollie_tyler]

You work support for this too? Are you at the MS campus, in MSN support, or are you at the outsource company's site at an unnamed location in Canada?

Re:It's Actually *Good* Hardware

[emmetropia]

i'm an un-named Canadian soldier. Apparently there's an outsourcer in the states too, maybe in florida (don't quote me on that). I've been transfered calls from there today, where agents get a customer using 3rd party hubs, with the aformentioned dsl router (on the 252 netmask). That would lead me to believe that the support at that site would be a little lacking, sorry if you're from there, just sayin what we've been getting here.

Re:different issue

[gelfling]

Yeah can you imagine a home LAN wireless router with an MS embedded OS? Holy bloated hardware batman!!

Synapse

[micaiah]

I heard Bill Gates is teaming up with Nurv's Gary Winston to complete Synapse. Resistance is futile.

Microsoft makes great hardware

[Kaneda]

Don't dis it til you've tried it - I use a microsoft keyboard and microsoft mouse, and can't see myself changing any time soon. I really like their joysticks and gamepads too. The stuff just 'feels right'. There is also almost no incentive for them to leverage WiFi devices to sell operating systems on the WiFi hardware itself. So stop making jokes about windows running on the hardware.

Monopoly is as Monopoly Does

[fm6]

The difference is in market share and policy. Apple doesn't dominate any markets. And the AirPort is standard-compliant, so nobody's forced to buy Apple hardware just because they already have an Apple base station.

Microsoft has both the ability and the will to force competitors out of any market they enter. And they have a history of breaking standards -- even their own! This has as much to do with wanting to "improve" everything they touch ("sure it's not compliant or backward compatible, but it sure is cool!") as with a desire to lock out competitors, but the effect is the same. So when MS enters a product market, existing vendors get nervous, as do their customers. And with good reason.