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Encrypt Information In Images Without Distortion

Nomikos writes "C|Net reports: Researchers have created a new way to encrypt information in a digital image and extract it later without any distortion or loss of information. A team of scientists from Xerox and the University of Rochester said that the technique, called reversible data hiding, could be used in situations that require proof that an image has not been altered."

234 comments

  1. This has been done forever. by packeteer · · Score: 4, Funny

    People have been doing this for some time. You simply print out the data. Take a photo of it. Scanthe photo. Send the photo. No distortion of the image with the data on it.

    --
    unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
    1. Re:This has been done forever. by Valar · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This isn't really feasible if you are trying to extract the data losslessly. The original image file will not match with the extracted file. There is loss in the printing (ink smudge, low resolution printer), loss in the photography (ambient light, noise on the film, thumb in front of lens) and loss in the scanning process. As a result, even if the scanned image is in the same format as the original, there is still loss.

    2. Re:This has been done forever. by packeteer · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      The space in my sig is space in my sig is part of anti-page-widening post screens. I have no control over it.

      Also ive heard this same thing a million times. These are not bash shell commands. Not all shells use "umount" to unmount a volume.

      --
      unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
    3. Re:This has been done forever. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you've heard it a million times then why don't you do something about it ? Perhaps you feel superior subjecting everyone to your inane and badly spelt BS ? Your post looks like a dog spewed on your keyboard.

    4. Re:This has been done forever. by LinuxInDallas · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm assuming that the parent of your message was using a little humor in saying you can simply scan something and retrieve its contents perfectly.

      That being said, depending on the type of data you scan you may very well be able to retrieve it all. As a simple example, you can scan a page of plain text and get it all back via OCR with good reliability. I would guess that with a high enough quality scanner you could get pixel-level-accurate scans of a high quality printing. That equipment is probably out of most of our budgets though.

    5. Re:This has been done forever. by Nerull · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Considering that 'umount' is not a shell command, but instead a program, I fail to see how using bash effects anything. $ which umount /bin/umount

    6. Re:This has been done forever. by Moirke · · Score: 1

      Every camera, scanner, and printer is going to cause some distortion, but that is really not the point of this technology.

      Courts have difficulty accepting digital images as evidence because it is very difficult to prove that the image has not been altered. This technology, atleast if I understand it correctly, will ensure that a digital image has not been altered since some point in time (when the encryption was added). Sorta like what a hash or a checksum does for files people download.

      What would be more curious is how they get this encryption into the picture without causing ANY distortion. For sometime people have been able to encode messages in images by chaning the least significant bit of each color or something like that. This causes very little distortion but still some. I wonder if their technology can be extended to sending encrypted messages within images?

    7. Re:This has been done forever. by uncoveror · · Score: 3, Funny

      What do we need this for anyway? It has already been reported that digital photographs cannot be faked.

      --
      The Uncoveror: It's the real news.
  2. No loss of information? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Store your stuff in the comment area of the gif/jpeg file.

    1. Re:No loss of information? by sashang · · Score: 1

      I think this is different. They're modifying the data at the pixel level, not in some file specific field.

    2. Re:No loss of information? by stellar7 · · Score: 1

      I wonder just how much you would be able to store in an image. I would think there would only be a certain percentage of the total data that you could store per a certain image size. Anybody know any specifics?

  3. Make Distortion Open Source by Lieutenant_Dan · · Score: 0, Funny

    I think the best way to improve the quality of the distortion is to make it Open Source. By providing easy access to vast quantities of distortion can the Open Source community developers reach new heights in the field of encryption.

    Only when tapping into the enormous resources contained within the Open Source community of developers can we allow UHF signals to break the strangle-hold that digital television has on the lives of the average Brazilian.

    --
    Wearing pants should always be optional.
  4. porn by Transient0 · · Score: 5, Funny

    So I'll finally be able to verify whether or not that's a REAL picture of Britney Spears getting it on with a dalmation?

    SWEET!

  5. Holy Cow!! This Is Awesome! by Bowie+J.+Poag · · Score: 0, Troll



    Wow, lossless data encryption!! I'm impressed!

    Rumor has it they're going to call it "ROT13".

    Sheesh...Is it really that hard to author a post that doesn't insult the intelligence of 80% of your readers?

    Cheers,

    --
    Bowie J. Poag

    1. Re:Holy Cow!! This Is Awesome! by packeteer · · Score: 5, Interesting

      They are refering to water marks. This is not about "encryption" or even "stenography". The problem is proving a document is original. Normally you put and ugly water mark on the image. With this techinque you can put the water mark in but you also put in data "securly encrypted of course" about how to get the water mark out.

      Sheesh i feel dirty now that i have summed up the whole article because people post before they read it.

      --
      unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
    2. Re:Holy Cow!! This Is Awesome! by broken_bones · · Score: 2, Funny

      Quoting packeteer:

      Sheesh i feel dirty now that i have summed up the whole article because people post before they read it.

      I find it amusing that you say this when your first post to this thread was at 10:29, just three minutes after the article was posted. You sure must read fast...

      --

      Never disturb your enemy while he is busy making a mistake.
    3. Re:Holy Cow!! This Is Awesome! by packeteer · · Score: 2

      Actually i do read fast. But i have also read the article already. And i know a fair bit about the subject. And besides my first post to this article was joking around. I just felt i might as well throw it out there at the beggining. Then i waited to maybe share my knowledge but people like you jsut throw around uninformed comments.

      --
      unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
    4. Re:Holy Cow!! This Is Awesome! by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 4, Informative

      Quoth the parent: They are refering to water marks. This is not about "encryption" or even "stenography". The problem is proving a document is original. Actually, it looks like steg to me. Because to prove a document is unaltered without altering it, you just sign it with your private key. This can't be any better: someone could remove the watermark (it's reversible), alter the message, and "authenticate" that, unless there is a digital signature embedded in the image, in which case why not just attach it to the file? Although it would appear that the original paper is not online, so we can't be sure.

      --
      I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
    5. Re:Holy Cow!! This Is Awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you must not know packeteer. this son of a bitch is a babbling fucking cretin who types with his elbows, never makes sense, and will reply endlessly and incoherently to anyone who criticizes him. a true slashdot icon.

    6. Re:Holy Cow!! This Is Awesome! by packeteer · · Score: 1

      Awwww i even have AC's posting my exploits. I feel truly loved.

      Mods remember i posted without my bonus so modding is not needed.

      --
      unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
    7. Re:Holy Cow!! This Is Awesome! by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2

      Although it would appear that the original paper is not online, so we can't be sure.

      Yeah, but I think you're right anyway, as that is the only reasonable thing the article could be talking about. None of the applications require steg, but it's very clear that the invention involves altering the image itself in some way. So based on that, can you think of what you would possibly use this for?

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    8. Re:Holy Cow!! This Is Awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Modding is needed for your person, you cretin from some backwater where spelling and grammar are concepts as alien as the idea of fornicating with someone other than your own sister...

    9. Re:Holy Cow!! This Is Awesome! by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 1

      So based on that, can you think of what you would possibly use this for?

      Nope. If it really is supposed to be steg, 100 to 1 it sucks. You just don't go into a field where almost every new algo gets broken in months, and make a new secure algo with additional features. Especially since losslessness is basically useless in steg.

      --
      I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
    10. Re:Holy Cow!! This Is Awesome! by packeteer · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well the problem is you CANT remove the watermark. Its like a pgp key. The watermark can only be removed by the intended recipient. Of course there is always a way but it should be fairly secure if you have a inique ID on a piece of hardware then only that hardware can remove the watermark.

      --
      unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
    11. Re:Holy Cow!! This Is Awesome! by Moirke · · Score: 1

      I am not sure how signing it withn your private key would prove it has been unaltered. You could alter it and then sign it, or you could sign it and then alter it. Provided you (or someone else) does not alter the signature. If someone alters some values in the middle of the file there will be no avalanche effect that causes the signature at the bottom to change.

    12. Re:Holy Cow!! This Is Awesome! by some+guy+I+know · · Score: 1

      I am not sure how signing it withn your private key would prove it has been unaltered.

      While I haven't read the paper and am totally unaware of what method they use, I can think of a very easy way to do this:

      1. Get the MD5 or SHA message digest of the entire image, except for the bits that you will use to store the authentication (probably the low bit of the blue channel in RGB encoded images, because shades of blue are not as distinguishable to the human eye as shades of red or green).
      2. Using your private key, encrypt the message digest.
      3. Store the encrypted digest in the bits of the message that you reserved for that purpose.

      Note that in a PNG image, for example, you can put the watermark in a separate chunk instead of image bits, thus making the method totally lossless.

      If a third person wishes to verify that you have authenticated the image, all (s)he has to do is extract the encrypted digest, decrypt it using your public key, and compare it to the message digest of the rest of the image.
      If the image was altered, the two digests will not match.

      This will not prove that you, yourself, did not alter the image; it will simply prove that it was not altered from the time it left your care until the time that the digest was checked.
      (There is no way to prove that a digital image was not altered prior to the application of a watermark.)

      Really, I don't see how this is any different from cryptographically signing any message, but I'm probably missing something.

      --
      Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
  6. Encryption? by heliocentric · · Score: 5, Informative

    Isn't it more like steganography? I mean, ok, so we can encrypt the message you store using steg. but are we confusing the two?

    --
    Wheeeee
    1. Re:Encryption? by saforrest · · Score: 4, Informative

      Basically it is a form of steganography. The only thing unique is that the information isn't an arbitrary message, but just enough to label the image.

      This is called digital watermarking.

    2. Re:Encryption? by nuntius · · Score: 5, Informative

      From reading the paper (college access to IEEE publications sure is nice), the researchers outline two forms of reversible data embedding.

      Type I simply embeds the data into the spectrum of the image and uses modulo addition as necessary to prevent overflow. Unfortunately, this causes "salt-and-pepper artifacts" because this sometimes affects the most significant bits in a pixel's representation.

      Type II uses the traditional method of overwriting the least significant bits or high-frequency coefficients in the image (depending on image encoding).

      What this paper does is describe a method that employs Type II encoding and saves the overwritten bits by compressing them and inserting into the embedded data stream. Unlike simple Type II encodings such as always using the lowest two bits, this paper varies the number of bits which are used in each byte. This value is determined according to their compressibility and other parameters in the image. By doing this, the paper obtains a more efficient tradeoff between storage and distortion.

      The journal article is "Reversible data hiding" in IEEE Internation Conference on Image Processing, 2002, volume 2, pages 157-160 http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/servlet/opac?punumber=8 052

    3. Re:Encryption? by fwankypoo · · Score: 1
      I'm just a O(n) person in a O(log n) world.


      I don't think this quite gets the point across that you want it to, "I'm just a theta(n) person in a theta(log n) world." would work better;)
      --
      The time of day is 29:33.
    4. Re:Encryption? by heliocentric · · Score: 3, Funny

      I don't think this quite gets the point across that you want it to, "I'm just a theta(n) person in a theta(log n) world." would work better;)

      I'm not so sure you get the point I'm trying to make... Can you ever have an alg. that runs in less time than it takes to read in the entire input? I'm trying to make a statment about difficult demands placed by the world and what I think of my own abilities to keep going at the real physical limit, but it just doesn't match the expectations of the world.

      I'm not saying I'm asymptotically similar to something - I'm just talking in the worst case that I'm bounded. I feel the world wants things done in an unrealistic time (in the worst case) and that I just can't seem to provide that...

      --
      Wheeeee
    5. Re:Encryption? by leuk_he · · Score: 2

      I cannot read the ieee link (the abstract is for members only) but google found this abstact for me:

      Watermarking :

      We present a novel reversible (lossless) data hiding (embedding) technique, which enables the exact recovery of the original host signal upon extraction of the embedded information......

      (oops, something went wrong with my previous post)

    6. Re:Encryption? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you ever have an alg. that runs in less time than it takes to read in the entire input?

      Um, yeah? Of course! It just depends on what problem you're solving and how you define "input," right? Say you want to return the first element in an array of length N, and you're given the entire array... well, your "input" (as I'm defining it) is of length N, but obviously the worst your algorithm can do is run in constant time (assuming you don't do anything monumentally stupid).

      I guess you could argue that the "input" is then just the first element, but that's not the way problems are usually phrased... and that's my point anyway, that it's circular to define "input" as "those elements of the input that need to be examined to return an answer," or something along those lines. "Input" is what you're given, whether you need it or not. And then it's easy to think of problems whose algorithms run in time smaller than O(n).

    7. Re:Encryption? by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1

      Hmm. If you're O(f), then you take time bounded by f(x) for sufficiently large input of size x. Theta(f) means you take at least f(x) time. And Omega(f) means you are both O(f) and Theta(f).

      (But notationally we write things like O(n^2) instead of O(lambda n . n^2).

      So... maybe you want to say 'I'm a Theta(n) person', meaning I require *at least* time proportional to the input, 'in an O(log n) world', ie one that gives you *at most* log n amount of time. Or whatever :-).

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    8. Re:Encryption? by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1
      Can you ever have an alg. that runs in less time than it takes to read in the entire input?

      It depends on your model of computation... if you take something like an ordinary computer, and have the input already in memory, then binary search runs in O(log n) time where n is the number of elements. In fact it is still O(log n) if the data are stored on disk or some other random-access device.

      Even if you take a computing device that must read its input one character at a time, and doesn't have a random-access memory, then there are still some algorithms that take less time than reading the whole input. Returning the first element of a list, for example.

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    9. Re:Encryption? by fwankypoo · · Score: 1

      I think you're confused.

      Let's use the function g(x)
      g(x)=O(f(x)) means that g(x) = cf(x) for some c

      and

      g(x)=theta(f(x)) means that c1f(x) = g(x) = c2f(x) for some constants c1 and c2. All of these are asymptotic, that is the input must be greater than or equal to some smallest value that behaves this way.

      --
      The time of day is 29:33.
    10. Re:Encryption? by fwankypoo · · Score: 1

      allright, ignore that, slashdot decided to mangle my post

      --
      The time of day is 29:33.
    11. Re:Encryption? by heliocentric · · Score: 1

      Say you want to return the first element in an array of length N, and you're given the entire array... well, your "input" (as I'm defining it) is of length N, but obviously the worst your algorithm can do is run in constant time (assuming you don't do anything monumentally stupid).

      You must state that you are using pass by reference, otherwise getting the input to the algorithm takes O(n). Think a tad more in the realm of theory - Turing Machines and such. Specifically deterministic TMs, since non-deterministic ones run uber fast (1. Read Input and verify it is of the correct type 2. Ask an oracle for an answer 3. Decide what that answer means and return). Be careful with step one, it's often written off, but checking input for validity sometimes takes a little time.

      Ok, then you go on about how the term input is sometimes loose. Then ending with:

      "Input" is what you're given, whether you need it or not.

      Ok, stop right there. Input is everything... For example the whole array in your example. To read that data in it takes O(n). You can't do things any faster. If you are asked to return the first element of the array so you "read" that and just ignore the rest of the input, fine... but that input still needs to be sent to you.

      And then it's easy to think of problems whose algorithms run in time smaller than O(n).

      Huh? I could have sworn you had the idea and were restating mine back with the last quote - you get all of the input. Keep in mind, pass by reference is just a neat coding trick, somewhere at somepoint in time the input had to be fed into the system - you can't get around that. Sure, it might have been passed to a particular portion using pass by reference, but if you wish to talk about the running time of that portion of code (disregarding the other algorithms you so skillfully coded in the remaining code) you must still take into account the reading of the data into your system. To ignore how the data got onto the system is to not completely discuss the algorithm.

      This is a crucial thing, and is often over looked. This is fine for little things like talking about finding the head of a list or something. There we often say the "operation" runs in constant time. But a true algorithm that takes an array as input and returns the head takes O(n) due to the read. It's not too big of an issue here, but when you get into things that need to be encoded in certain ways for the remainder of the algorithm to work, and you think that just encoding into unary takes O(1) time, then you're in for trouble.

      Don't confuse operations (portions of an algorithm) and the actual algorithms themselves. An operation can take less than O(n) time, but if you intend to promote that operation to being a stand alone algorithm you need to incorporate reading the input AND if there were previous operations that got the input turned into a particularly useful form. Consider this argument:

      Johnny wishes to read find the largest element in an array. He decides to sort the array in desending order and then read the first element. He knows that reading the first element takes O(1) time so he says his algorithm runs in constant time. Bzzzzt, wrong. He only looked at an operation and then scaled that to the entire algorithm. Ignoring the fact that it's faster to do this without sorting and continue with Johnny's plan we need to look at previous sub-algorithmic operations and account for the reading in of the entire array. The reading alone took O(n) and the sorting took more (hopefully he's smart enough to use a decent sorting algorithm, but that's not the point - we don't need to be tight about the bounds of his sort for this discussion). Disregarding the sorting but keeping the reading we are already up to O(n).

      Similar to analysis algorithms (sorting, finding stuff, etc...) we have generation algorithms such as producing n Fibonacci numbers. Here I hope we have less things to argue about since how can you possibly generate n numbers without at least "touching" those n numbers?

      --
      Wheeeee
    12. Re:Encryption? by heliocentric · · Score: 1

      See my argument here for my responce to the AC with a similar point of view, but I'll address some of your specifics here.

      if you take something like an ordinary computer, and have the input already in memory

      Wait, stop right there.... how did the stuff get into the computer in the first place? If you are dealing with things you have in the sytem already then you are talking strictly about operations performed on them - not talking about a completel algorithm which takes input, does something, and returns.

      Even if you take a computing device that must read its input one character at a time, and doesn't have a random-access memory

      Side note: I argue that at some point in the life of the data, at the inception of this data, it was trasmitted one character at a time. I can take data into my system and store it on a floppy. Then make 1,000 copies of the floopy and distribute them. Now that the data has been put into a randomly acessible form and I wish to do operations on this data (read the first block for example) I can't argue that this took O(constant) time solely because my data is randomly accessible. I must ask myself how the data got to me in the first place - the true honest read.

      , then there are still some algorithms that take less time than reading the whole input. Returning the first element of a list, for example.

      And just how did the data get to you? Probably one character at a time. And the system that is sending this data is taking O(n) time to send it to you. If you are disregarding data being sent or not - it's still in the stream. If you think you are simply going to ask the sender to send you a portion of the input then you must take into account the sender's time to find this portion of the input (again, constant time in your example) but then how did the sender get the input in the first place?

      One must always trace the input back to an originating point. Operations on data/input that are already on a sytem are operations on data partway through its life. A true algorithmic discussion is on the entirity of the data's life - beginning, middle, and end.

      --
      Wheeeee
    13. Re:Encryption? by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1

      Yes I concede that if you assume that the data must be sent one character at a time, and fully loaded into memory before the algorithm can return its result, then no algorithm can do better than O(n). Those aren't usually the assumptions you make when discussing these things however.

      Both in the real world and in the ivory towers of computer science, it's acceptable to talk about algorithms which take O(log n) time or even less. The binary search I mentioned is the obvious example. As a programmer, you would do poorly to implement linear search instead of binary search simply on the grounds that no algorithm can do better than linear time.

      On the point about the sender taking O(n) time to send the data to you, try running something like 'seq 0 1000000000 | head -1' and compare the time taken to run that command piped to tail -1 instead. Is this a 'true algorithmic discussion'? I don't know.

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    14. Re:Encryption? by Cassandra · · Score: 1

      I'm just a theta(n) person in a theta(log n) world." would work better;)


      Is it just me, or was that a scientology reference? :-)

    15. Re:Encryption? by jovlinger · · Score: 2

      Oh... I get it, I think.

      So the camera is a trusted device. It embeds a secret digital key. When I take a picture proving the existence of little green men, the camera stores, in the watermark signal, a signed md5 sum of the reconstructed(*) image. (I'm assuming just one such signal, several signals tell you how the image has been altered, not just if)

      Someone now questions whether this ufo pic I have is real: all I have to do is calculate the md5sum of the image, get the public half of my camera's key (printed on the bottom?) and verify that this indeed matches the signed image key.

      Kinda neat.

      (*) However, I'm curious. The embedded signal needs to contain the bits it replaces AND some payload data. How can this be a lossless embedding? Did these guys go and invent a recursivly applicable lossless compressor? So I suspect it is not lossless, but merely a lot better than other schemes.

    16. Re:Encryption? by heliocentric · · Score: 1

      And I will concede that data can be copied in less than O(n) time. It doesn't always go that way, but if you are talking about data that lives on your hard disk that is then sent in O(log n) time to memory (pretend the CPU can deal with things in memory directly and it does not need to be copied to cache/registers) due to data being represented in binary. And yes, these aren't things that are usually discussed and are just assumed away. But, doing pass by value and assuming things happen quickly is not good - being apreciative of these issues is helpful.

      I guess it's mostly a semantics debate. I don't think it's acceptable to talk about algorithms which take O(log n) time or even less. But I do think it's accepable to talk about operations (portions of algorithsm) that take O(log n) time or even less.

      As for 'seq 0 1000000000 | head -1' and tail -1 I argue that head once the head is satisfied then the input is stopped. Piping into wc has a similar effect of tail -1 due to having to generate all of the input. To me this is like a special case using some OS trickery. Here, the entire input stream did not need to finish since the reciever has some control over the sender. The pipe operation is not a serial "do this then do that" operation. Rather things occur in parallel, input is generated and send to the reciever. If at any time in the chain a reciever no longer requires input the senders up the chain cascadingly halt. Receivers being so tightly coupled with senders is not always this easy. I'll be the first to say that your point is supported by that execution, however a proof by lack of counter example is not a sufficient proof. We can't take your example and state that input is unnessary. I guess we can't say that input timing is entirely necessary either, but that's why I try to seperate things into algorithms and operations. An algorithm encountering the entire life of data while an operation may deal with data on only a portion of its life.

      As a side note, data clean up also takes time. In your example of the command line execution the data was no stored so removal is not applicable. But what about your previous example about data that was easily obtainable from disk or other randomly accessible media? At some point (assuming the system is bounded by storage and won't destroy itself, and I'm talking outside the ivory tower of computer since here) the data is no longer needed and must be destroyed. This garabe collection is often not cheap, especially for dynamically allocated memory. Here, in this phase of the data life (the death) many people overlook the time spent for cleanup. I think debate about garbage colletion is a more common one than data creation, but the two are highly related.

      --
      Wheeeee
    17. Re:Encryption? by fwankypoo · · Score: 1

      God, I hope not. ;)

      --
      The time of day is 29:33.
    18. Re:Encryption? by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1

      No no, in the expression O(n) the 'n' refers to the physical size of the input (in bits, or characters, or whatever), not to its numerical value. So the data will always take O(n) time to copy. Transfers from the hard disk to main memory will be O(n). If you think about binary numbers, you'll see that a physical size of n means the number can be up to 2^n or so, so you might think an algorithm is O(log2 n) when it is really O(n) because of mistakenly counting the magnitude of the number instead of the size of its representation. (Look up 'pseudo-polynomial algorithms' for another example of this.)

      The point is that not every algorithm requires the data to be fully copied in and out again. Suppose you have a program that loads some data, then does lots and lots of binary searches on it, then writes it out again. The loading and saving will be O(n) but each binary search is O(log n). Suppose that the number of such searches is proportional to the size of the input. Then the reading and writing takes O(n) as before and the searches altogether take O(n log n). The n log n factor dominates. The total execution time allowing for input and output is O(n log n).

      Suppose instead that you had used linear search rather than binary search. Then each search takes O(n) time and total searching time is O(n^2). The total execution time is O(n^2).

      So switching from linear search to binary search gives a real improvement in asymptotic complexity - even when input and output are taken into account. But we couldn't work that out without the knowledge that one algorithm, by itself with no I/O, takes O(log n) time and the other takes O(n) time. It is a meaningful thing to say.

      You are right that you have to account for reading and writing time, but don't assume that every algorithm must read in all its data sequentially, operate on it and then output the result sequentially. If you're running many algorithms or the same one more than once then this reading and writing cost is spread between all of them.

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    19. Re:Encryption? by heliocentric · · Score: 1

      Well, I think you went into the ivory tower of CS as I tend to:

      So the data will always take O(n) time to copy. Transfers from the hard disk to main memory will be O(n).

      We can do better than O(n) to transfer from hard disk to main memory due to the width of a word. We can transfer a word in one clock cycle. I am not saying we can transfer data in constant time, it must still be based on the length of the data, but we can create instances where we do not need to go character by character to transfer. I think this is a minor point of little debate value, but consider lossless compressed data (Huffman for instnace) and we are clearly transfering less amount of data, but the computational over head negates the decrease in data transfer size so it's meaningless, but parallel transfers on a data bus mean that we can transfer several portions of our data at the same time. In the worst case we get back to character by character, but just like your example of head vs. tail we can create specific instances where things indicate a certain behavior. Now, on to:

      The point is that not every algorithm requires the data to be fully copied in and out again.

      I think we're getting back to the semantics debate again. An algorithm (this is my definition and I could have sworn a commonly accepted one... but who knows) is a definition of a step-by-step problem-solving procedure. I think you'll agree to that version, but I extend that to talk about the problem definition and include that the problem must specify the input in its entirity.

      Here, I think we're both starting to get tongue tied on the semantics. Take this analogy.

      For me to right now bake a cake would require a trip to the store for (among other things) sugar. I have a recipie (an algorith) for the cake, but I don't have the ingerdients. The recipie (including mixing and baking) would require 40 minutes. However, the trip to the store (and back) would require 10 minutes. If my SO asked me to bake a cake and asked how long it would take, she would be annoyed if I replied "40 minutes" and it really took me 50 minutes.

      Now, to relate this to your senario of the input being done once and then algs. running on this many times, if I were asked to bake a pie I would also need to run to the store (again 10 minutes) before I could begin the algorithm that for arguement sake takes 30 minutes. I could run to the store once thus getting the needed input for both algorithms, and each one (once they have the needed input) would take their alloted times. But that doesn't make either alg. quicker since they were dependant on the prep work. In my baking the actual creation of a pie is an operation in the entire process, the reading (buying) and encoding (opening/measuring) of the input needed time as well.

      Now, before you point it out, I realize that baking time is not dependant on running-to-the-store time, but you get the point about prep work being done before the alg. is even brought into the CPU.

      Back to your specific example about using binary search. Do not forget that for binary search to work we need to have the elements aligned so that searches can run in O(log n) and that alignment doesn't happen over night. Even in non-deterministic approaches we always at least verify that the input was formatted the way we would like. Those searches are each an operation in the overall algorithm.

      --
      Wheeeee
    20. Re:Encryption? by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1

      Agreed. If I say it takes three minutes to soft-boil an egg but ten minutes (say) to hard-boil one, you could reply that I've left out the time to go and buy the egg and then to eat it afterwards. But as you know it's usually implicit in the discussion that these things have been done. Otherwise it would be very hard to talk about such things. So include loading and saving time if you wish, but make it clear that you are doing so otherwise people will get confused. Perhaps the common computer science usage of 'an O(log n) algorithm' is wrong, I don't know. But it is the way people discuss these things and we have to follow the same definitions. Conventionally, you don't count time to load in the data or save out the result unless you specifically say this.

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    21. Re:Encryption? by t · · Score: 1
      The way I read the article translates to "our watermarking technique turned out to be so god damn flimsy that any manipulation destorys it! Thus we switched focus and are marketing it as a way to unambiguously verify an original as the original."

      Bascially the modern day equivalent of the wax and stamp seal.

      yawn.

    22. Re:Encryption? by heliocentric · · Score: 1

      the common computer science usage of 'an O(log n) algorithm' is wrong, I don't know.

      Well, we tend to often wave our hands at things. One of the common things is the reading of the input. These things do come back and bite us. I remember a proof a few years back getting for pimality and things were great except the author didn't properly take into account the loading/encoding of the input. It's not something that creeps into every discussion, nor have I ever seen any two people go on at length as we have about this (thanfully your responces have been both inteligent and interesting), but I think it's something that we mustn't over look.

      --
      Wheeeee
    23. Re:Encryption? by nuntius · · Score: 1

      I think you are essentially correct.

      The camera is trusted. The camera is given a public key to use. When a photo is taken, the camera embeds its signature/time stamp/other info into the picture. Using any ordinary method, this would damage the picture and be easily edited. However, knowing that pictures are inherently compressible, you can compress part of the picture, add your data to it, sign everything with the public key, insert it back into the picture, and send out a recoverable, signed picture. The unsigned picture would never make it out of the camera. This way, only the person with the private key could access the original picture.

      The government could still tamper with the pictures, but at least its harder for someone on the (crime?) scene to do so... In result, this is essentially as secure as normal photos (where optical illusions/distortion is already possible).

      It does _not_ require infinite lossless compression. In an application like this, image quality is of utmost importance; therefore they didn't have to worry about trying to store data in already lossy formats such as jpe

  7. better pr0n by jlechem · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    great, now all the pervs in the world can have super high def porn. Forensic science is great but we all know what this tech's real use is going to be.

    --
    Hold up, wait a minute, let me put some pimpin in it
  8. Signed Hash by notestein · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How is this better than a signed hash of the image?

    1. Re:Signed Hash by jonbrewer · · Score: 4, Informative

      "How is this better than a signed hash of the image?"

      A signed hash can be separated from an image, while this type of watermarking cannot.

    2. Re:Signed Hash by sharph · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Of course I could be completely wrong...but...

      If you resize the image, you get a different hash, but with this, you still get the authentication. And then when you have portions of the image changed you can tell what portions are changed... From what I can tell this is just a special "image hashing" and not Steganography at all.

      Of course, I could be completely wrong.

    3. Re:Signed Hash by Xenographic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A signed hash can be separated from an image, while this type of watermarking cannot.
      >>>>>

      There must be some way to separate it from the image, as the technique is also supposed to be *reversable*

      I'm not sure just what they're up to, though, the article isn't very detailed...

    4. Re:Signed Hash by notestein · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm not sure I believe that. If I wanted an image that is guaranteed to not have been tampered with... A missing signed hash would invalidate the image as much as a changed hash. Now to put the equivalent of a signed hashes data back into an image via an algorithm.... that seems like less security.

    5. Re:Signed Hash by sinserve · · Score: 2, Redundant

      Or steganography?

    6. Re:Signed Hash by jsse · · Score: 1

      The key is that the information embedded in an image can be extracted "without any distortion or loss of information".

      The extracted information could be digital signature which could faciliate higher level of authentication like PKI that hash function alone cannot offer. Hash function could be used to verify whether a piece of work has be altered, with high confidency; but it can't authenticate the author of this piece of work.

    7. Re:Signed Hash by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 2

      Re-sizing is still alteration. As for telling which portions have been changed--hash 50x50 pixel squares, or whatever you want.

    8. Re:Signed Hash by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 2

      Then digitally sign it with GnuPG.

    9. Re:Signed Hash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then you know it has been altered, don't you?

    10. Re:Signed Hash by packeteer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Thats where the encryption comes in. The watermark can only be reversed on the correct machine. Think like pgp, only the person you want to can read the email you send. They plan to work this into hardware. They would probably give the hardware a unique key and have the picture creator encrypt so only that key can open it. This way if you say wany a secure presentation you can set it so only the one projector in the white house can read it without the watermark.

      --
      unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
    11. Re:Signed Hash by jsse · · Score: 1

      Then digitally sign it with GnuPG
      then it'd not be steganography :)

    12. Re:Signed Hash by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 2

      Yes it would. The steganography part comes when you stick the signed hash back into the original image (probably along with the entire original image to make it reversible). Which is kind of silly. But isn't that just what the front page of /. is there for?

    13. Re:Signed Hash by Krach42 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      My interpretation of the article was different. They made it seem that they could sign an image, not encrypt the image. Thus, the image was viewable to all, but it's verifiability was secured through this technique. Being that any alteration done to the picture would cause the signature to fail. It would likely result in the picture being blotched in the area that was altered, as the information that was contained there for both the signature and the previous color value are ruined.

      Thus, all those pr0n sites that steal pictures from each other, and post them on their own site with nifty looking "pr0n.net" marks would be verifiably altered.

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
    14. Re:Signed Hash by jhoude · · Score: 1

      ok... but if your hardware fails ? The image is lost forever ??

    15. Re:Signed Hash by tezza · · Score: 1
      You tool. You ARE thinking of PGP. Why did this get modded so high?

      so only the one projector in the white house can read it without the watermark.

      Well done, that's great... Everyone including bladen@whitehouse.gov will be able to *look* at this image using this watermark, just not verify it's authenticity.

      You're talking about DRM, one of the very few uses of a trusted computing platform. Then they'll have those 'trusted' polarised glasses, with 'trusted' polarised lcd displays, and only those authenticated souls withthe right polarisation angle will be able to view it. Sensitive information could be displayed on any such monitor, you wouldn't need a special room. I would have included a link to the Slahdot article on those polarised thingummys but Slashdot search isn't working. Even a search on 'linux' brought up no results.

      What the Whitehouse really need are several Cones of Silence.

      --
      [% slash_sig_val.text %]
    16. Re:Signed Hash by t · · Score: 1
      The analogy I came up with is a clear envelope with a wax stamp seal. Seems about the same as what they have done.

      Your pR0n analogy doesn't make sense to me. The pictures would not be verifiably altered, all you would be able to tell is that this picture is not the original. Watermarking is supposed to tell you if this picture was derived from a particular picture (or from a particular company that inserts that watermark).

  9. mmmm by standsolid · · Score: 1, Funny

    mmmm... open-sourced-club encryption.... wait... not open-source.

    --
    WTPOUAWYHTTOTWPA
    What's the point of using acronyms when you have to type out the whole phrase anyways?
  10. XOR? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The image *is* changed, but once the data is extracted, it can be changed back to what it was originally.

    Sounds like glorified XOR masking.

  11. I don't get it... by RomikQ · · Score: 5, Interesting
    The new technique builds on previous methods but modifies the lowest levels of pixel values using data-embedding algorithms. It allows authorized viewers to extract the embedded authentication message while also removing any distortions created by the embedded information

    So while the encrypted data is in the image, the picture is still distorted, it's only when you take the data out, then you get the original. What's the point of that??? I mean that was what it was like before, wasn't it?

    By the way, adding plain text to the end of a jpeg file doesn't alter the image in any way, no matter how much you add. So you could encrypt the text you want and add it at the end and there you go, lossless data encryption in images :). Do I get a Nobel prize now?

    --
    Join the elite! Post at score:2! Ghostwheel is online.
    1. Re:I don't get it... by stratjakt · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your "James Bond" PDA displays undistorted images, while filtering the secret content somewhere else.

      Or you could embed a ton of secret messages in a simple server-to-server mirroring operation, and still wind up with a 1:1 mirror - never tipping anyone off that anything but the visible content was transferred.

      That way when the bad guys find it they see no distortions, can find no trace that the image was ever altered, and just think you're looking at porn.

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
    2. Re:I don't get it... by McCart42 · · Score: 3, Funny

      The goal of steganography is to be one step better than encryption--not only can enemies not read the data, they don't even know there IS data being sent (at least not the data they were looking for). In other words:
      Encryption: "These are not the droids you are looking for."
      Steganography: "What droids? Those aren't droids, those are pictures of Britney Spears." (Perhaps this is a bad analogy.)

      Thus, adding text to the end of an image, even encrypted, shows that you have something to hide. For dissidents in China, this means prison, until you reveal your passphrase--and then they'll probably kill you.

      --
      "I may be quite wrong." - Socrates
    3. Re:I don't get it... by Wyzard · · Score: 1

      The article doesn't explain very well, but I get the impression that this is basically about storing a hash of the image into the image itself. It gives you all the same benefits of a cryptographic hash or signature, (depending on whether the data is in fact signed), but the hash/signature data is stored indelibly within the image. This is better than storing the data in a separate file, or appending it to the end of the image file, because there's zero possibility of it getting "lost" as the image is transferred from place to place.

  12. Is it really encryption? by verch · · Score: 5, Informative

    Sounds like 'encrypt' isnt exactly the right word here. Maybe 'encode' would have been better. From the very tech light article it seems that this is a watermarking technique which somehow embeds the watermark with no distortion of the image whatsoever. Traditional watermarks distort the image, albeit usually not noticeable to the casual naked eye.

  13. Don't let Bin Laden read this... by TheGreenGoogler · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As I recall, the FBI had evidence that Bin Laden was using steganography to conceal messages in photos...

    1. Re:Don't let Bin Laden read this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      thousands died on 9/11 and bin Laden's still alive ..you sure that's not the other way around?

  14. Something doesn't sound right by plierhead · · Score: 4, Interesting
    The article seems utterly light on some key information (about which file formats etc), but simple information theory suggests that this will only work on less-than-optimal image formats.

    Any optimal image format will result in a file only just big enough to store the image and no bigger - and therefore it will not be able to store any additional data without reducing the image quality in some way.

    Without any further information available, could it be they are just talking about taking advantage of flaws in some given format such as jpeg ?

    --

    [x] auto-moderate all posts by this user as insightful

    1. Re:Something doesn't sound right by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 2

      Here's a message that you could send to your girlfriend. Take a picture of yourself standing on a steal I-beam with your hand on your heart, with your university sweater emblazoned with U of whatever. Put that in any file format you want.

      But I responded to your comment for another reason. Nobody has ever written an optimal image format. Besides which, optimal for what? Plain-old human vision? You can remove information from an image in such a way that a human couldn't tell the difference (what most optimizing does). But computer processing can tell the difference in a nano-second. Probably, human-optimized images wouldn't even fool all primates.

    2. Re:Something doesn't sound right by ebyrob · · Score: 2

      Actually... it sounded pretty simple:

      Current data-embedding techniques insert additional watermarking information, which inevitably distorts an image. While the distortion is small, it is usually irreversible. The new technique builds on previous methods but modifies the lowest levels of pixel values using data-embedding algorithms. It allows authorized viewers to extract the embedded authentication message while also removing any distortions created by the embedded information, the researchers said.

      They came up with the idea of using a digital watermark in an image, but having the "reader" of the image remove the watermark before it is viewed. Of course, they also claim only "authorized" viewers can remove the watermark... "big woop" and "ya right" all at the same time.

      Definitely patent-worthy in this climate. (move over single click shopping carts!)

    3. Re:Something doesn't sound right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm... if I remember correctly:

      1 picture = 1000 words

      1 word = 16 bits

      1 picture = 16 000 bits

      Therefore the optimal storage format for pictures must be use 2000 bytes or roughly 2 kilobytes to store the picture.

  15. Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    WTF is this supposed to prove?

    1. Re:Huh? by b0r1s · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      It isn't meant to prove anything. I actually LIKE microsoft, I just find it funny that the mass of readership here pretends to hate them for some undefined reason, as do the editors, yet the editors still run their ads in prominent locations.

      If the editors/owners of this site had any moral fiber, they'd stand by their comments and not run Microsoft ads at all. It'd be a completely stupid business decision, but that would be the way true "Open source advocates" would handle the situation.

      --
      Mooniacs for iOS and Android
  16. Wow! Stupid Idea! by wahay · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ok. so we have a picture, which we then sign with a certificate of some sort. So far, so good. You can verify the picture.

    But what do we do next? We corrupt our picture with the signature, tossing it's bits into the picture as noise, and degrading the picure for all the people who open it. Except for the chosen few who have the (proprietary? patented? expensive?) program which chan detect the signiture, read it, and (WOO HOO!) XOR it out of the picture.

    This is not an exciting improvement over "gpg -s".

  17. once again all the early posters got it wrong by intuition · · Score: 5, Insightful
    This is steganography with the original image hidden in the steganography as well. Hence the term, "reversible data hiding." That way, not only does the current image hold the data you are sending, but you get a copy of the original image (before steganography) as well.

    The fact that every poster so far hasn't seen this fact, is a disturbing reminder of what the average poster on slashdot has become.

    does anyone have any suggestions as to where to go next?

    1. Re:once again all the early posters got it wrong by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 2

      Well, I'm actually not so sure. It appears to be steg, should be usable as steg, and is pretty much useless as anything but steg, but it is also pretty much useless as steg, too. Reversibility is not an issue with steg: if whomever you're hiding from can see the data in transit, you a) shouldn't xor the message out because they just compare it with the sent message, and b) shouldn't have used an image that exists elsewhere for you to prove it's identical to. If you don't think they will do something like this, why the heck are you stegging at all? Rather, detectability seems to be the hard thing, and not going too well now (a paper broke some of the last remaining good steg algos in Sept this year).

      Note that the article talks about authentication and watermarking. And the paper was presented under the "Watermarking" section in the IEEE conference. Too bad we can't ge the actual text, although from the detail-light article, it looks pretty much useless anyway.

      Ho hum.

      --
      I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
    2. Re:once again all the early posters got it wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you elitist bastard. i hope someone close to you dies of cancer.

    3. Re:once again all the early posters got it wrong by cei · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Nowhere in the source article does it say the encoded values are of the original image. It specifically refers to an "embedded authentication message."

      While your message has been modded to +5, it is, in fact, wrong.

      --
      This sig intentionally left justified.
    4. Re:once again all the early posters got it wrong by DustMagnet · · Score: 1
      Nowhere in the source article does it say the encoded values are of the original image.

      While your message has been modded to +5, it is, in fact, wrong.

      The first statement doesn't prove the second. What if he had just said, 2+2=4? That's not in the article either, but that doesn't make it wrong.

      If you still don't believe the message is correct, read this.

      --
      'SBEMAIL!' is better than a goat!!
    5. Re:once again all the early posters got it wrong by p0et · · Score: 1

      I'll fix that in a moment... I've got my super mega hiper moderator points ready to use.. and... err... oops.. I shoudn't had post this... had I?

  18. New? by csnydermvpsoft · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Rochester said that the technique, called reversible data hiding, could be used in situations that require proof that an image has not been altered.

    I've had that technique for years. It's called a checksum.

    1. Re:New? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 4, Insightful


      I've had that technique for years. It's called a checksum.

      All a checksum does is provide a playground for anyone with a little Linear Algebra background.

      Now if you are talking about message digests based on hash function, like SHA or HMAC you are on firmer ground.

  19. hahaha! xerox the innovation company by kraksmoka · · Score: 0
    "The University of Rochester filed a patent application on the methods developed for reversible data hiding and plans to share the rights of the invention with Xerox.

    Oh yeah! these guys'll figure out some way to f#$k this one up. Maybe they should just assign the rights to bill gates and steve jobs now . . .

    just one word people, GUI

    --
    "You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." - Rahm Emanuel
  20. Re:misc by lacrymology.com · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Hey! I remember you.

    --

    #
    # Modus Ponens
    #
  21. My bullshit detector is on yellow alert by Crag · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "For instance, a digital camera that carries the new algorithms could be used to gather forensic evidence for use later in a courtroom. Any subsequent manipulations of the pictures could be detected, and the area where they occurred could be pinpointed."

    Whatever the camera is doing at the scene of the crime could be faked in a lab. Even if each camera has its own PGP/GPG key, the picture is only as reliable as the security of the camera and the key.

    What they should do is have the crime scene photographer and his superior digitally sign the images at the crime scene. This would remove the image format from the equation and make the data and the image as secure as the keys of the people involved.

    1. Re:My bullshit detector is on yellow alert by ngoy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In addition to the comments above, Epson (who hasn't put out a new digital camera in quite awhile) has had something called IAS (Image Authentication System). Per their web site:
      Image authentication is provided from the point of capture and thereafter
      EPSON IAS-protected images remain standard JPEG images, viewable with all software programs that read JPEG images
      Image manipulation can be detected down to the level of a single bit
      Verification of image integrity is fast and easy.
      IAS images suffer no visible loss of imaqe quality
      Compatible with the EPSON PhotoPC 700, 750Z, 800, 850Z, 3000Z, and 3100Z digital cameras
      Works with Windows 95, 98, 2000, Me, XP, and Windows NT 4.0 (with Service Pack 3 or higher)

      Not a lot of information, but theirs has been out for a LONG time. It has "non-visible" to the human eye detection, so it should have sufficed for any forensic photographer that could use a 3MP image (which I don't think is sufficient for decent crime scene photography, but I am not a CSI).

      I personally do not see where a "lossless" type of authentication is useful, even in medical imaging, is one shade off going to make a difference?

      ngoy

      --
      --ngoy
    2. Re:My bullshit detector is on yellow alert by ChristopherLord · · Score: 5, Informative
      Canon does provide support for a "Data Verification Kit" on its latest 1Ds camera. No word on how secure it is, etc.

      from here:
      "Finally with a nod toward law enforcement the EOS-1Ds is the first digital camera that offers the ability to verify that images are unaltered originals using the Data Verification Kit DVK-E1, consisting of a dedicated IC card and card reader, together with software for Windows 2000/XP. This package is available to verify that EOS-1Ds image files are absolutely unaltered. "

    3. Re:My bullshit detector is on yellow alert by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, medical images are required to be lossless. That shade difference may be the key to seeing fluid in the lungs or not, etc., etc.

    4. Re:My bullshit detector is on yellow alert by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 2

      The most secure this could possibly be would be if the camera generated a signed hash with every image using a unique private key. This private key would have to be stored someone. Inside an IC, in other words. That would be hard to break. You would have to a.) take apart the IC and get the key (if it's well designed). Or b.) fool the camera into thinking that it is taking a picture, when you have actually bypassed the CCD and are feeding it information from your home computer. b.) is probably a lot easier.

    5. Re:My bullshit detector is on yellow alert by ngoy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I understand the need for detail, but we are talking changes of one bit in a scattered pattern. I have not researched it, but I think greyscale medical imaging is on the 10 bit level, so 1024 different shades of grey. If you change the first (or even second) bit, I doubt a doctor is going to point to that and make a diagnosis on a laser imaged x-ray.

      And thanks to our wonderful health care industry, it probably is immaterial anyways since the doctors get paid NOT to refer you to specialists anyways...

      ngoy

      --
      --ngoy
    6. Re:My bullshit detector is on yellow alert by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 2

      Or b.) fool the camera into thinking that it is taking a picture, when you have actually bypassed the CCD and are feeding it information from your home computer. b.) is probably a lot easier.

      Right. Except what the sig basically says was "this picture was taken with camera ID [blah]." It only means something if you know camera ID blah is the one that took the picture originally, trust its owner not to change things or leave his camera around, trust Canon not to escrow the keys, etc etc etc.

      --
      I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
    7. Re:My bullshit detector is on yellow alert by buswolley · · Score: 1

      I for one, was very afraid of this alteration ability we have. Camera seems to be king in the courtrooms and if the pOlice tamper witht the evidence how were you to prove otherwise? This helps, and I am glad.

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    8. Re:My bullshit detector is on yellow alert by IchBinEinPenguin · · Score: 1

      In order to trust the image taken by the camera you'd have to trust a lot more than the pixels!

      WHEN and WHERE the picture was taken is as importanas as WHAT is displayed, otherwise what's to stop someone snapping a picture, mangling it and then photographing the mangled picture?

      So, unless you include GPS in the camera and sign the GPS info as well, not much point in signing the picture.

      Next, how do you prove the GPS wasn't spoofed? (i.e. record the GPS signals at the desired time/location and then re-broadcast them to the camera later/somewhere else).

      <flamebait>
      Of couse, all this will be solved once I get my web-cam connected to my windows-palladium-DRM box.

    9. Re:My bullshit detector is on yellow alert by t · · Score: 1
      Actually the problem as I understand it is the possibility of a lawsuit prevents any type of compression. Even if it means going without the image because it is to big to email or whatnot. The fear is that a doc may misdiagnose an xray regardless of the compression, and the patient could then sue claiming that the cost-cutting hospital compressed the xrays too much, causing the misdiagnoses. The doc of course says otherwise but it's now a "greedy medical industry" versus "injured patient" lawsuit.

      This same argument applies to why new drugs are ignored. New techniques are ignored. New [anything that a shitload of other doctors have been using and not getting sued for] are ignored.

  22. My technique... by dsb3 · · Score: 2

    Hmmm ... how to embed/encode/encrypt the image within itself? ... I just XOR the image with itself. I also gain a few extra notches of JPEG compression that way.

    --

    Slashdot? Oh, I just read it for the articles.
    1. Re:My technique... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HAHA brilliant. I don't think anyone understood what you just said. (Think XOR'ing something with itself)

    2. Re:My technique... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      XOR'ing something against itself results in a full set of 0's.

      Ex.:
      11011110011101
      XOR 11011110011101
      --------------
      00000000000000

      Have fun reversing your scheme...

  23. Off topic question: about mozilla by Carbon+Unit+549 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Anybody know why mozzila 1.2 beta can't block the advertisement image on the cnet link?
    When I right click on it, it says it is already blocked--but I'm seeing it?

    --

    nohup rm -rf ~/. >& zen &

    1. Re:Off topic question: about mozilla by no+soup+for+you · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Anybody know why mozzila 1.2 beta can't block the advertisement image on the cnet link? When I right click on it, it says it is already blocked--but I'm seeing it?

      Same thing happened to me (in 1.1). the image was coming from adlog.com.com -- I blocked, refreshed and another ad took its place from adlog.com.com.. Block, refresh, and this time no ads.
      --
      If you blog it...
  24. Camouflage by c.emmertfoster · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How is this any different from Camouflage, which is used by some "Warez" sites to hide files within images?

    I've seen this used to keep zip files on free-webservers which do not allow them.

    Quote from their website: "you could create a picture file that looks and behaves exactly like any other picture file but contains hidden encrypted files"

    --
    We can neither love nor pity nor forgive. If you make a slip in handling us you die!
    1. Re:Camouflage by Cheese+Cracker · · Score: 1

      Sweet... Now I can hide Adobe Photoshop in an image file. Talk about irony.

    2. Re:Camouflage by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 1

      How is this any different from Camouflage, which is used by some "Warez" sites to hide files within images?

      Camouflage basically just changes the file type to trick websites that only host images. Some other tweaks are necessary to make it look like a valid image, but basically the image looks like random garbage. This thing signs real images to either hide additional data or prove they have not been altered (or so it is claimed). Not a big deal, better methods exist.

      --
      I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
    3. Re:Camouflage by c.emmertfoster · · Score: 2

      Ah, but the rub here is that the images don't look like random garbage...

      This Yahoo! Briefcase contains JPEG images which look like the logo of the warez site responsible for uploading them. Within the images is a pirate copy of Paint Shop Pro. The only distingushing characteristic is that they are four megabytes apiece :)

      Note that it's not limited to images, either. According to the website, one could conceal things within text files... (!?)

      --
      We can neither love nor pity nor forgive. If you make a slip in handling us you die!
    4. Re:Camouflage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      maybe you could ask the people who make camouflage to ween it off of internet explorer. needing IE on your computer to use this program just hits you wrong when you consider how good IE is on security. also i would like you to ask them the need to use the registry. if uncle Bill or some other evil company wants to scan your registry and sees camouflage isn`t that a tip off for more reasons why uncle Bill needs access to your files??

  25. Next Xerox... by Cheese+Cracker · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    ... will introduce sliced bread. Thank goodness we got innovative companies like Xerox and Microsoft...

  26. In other news... by the_other_one · · Score: 5, Funny

    The RIAA and MPAA have sponsored new legislation to make images illegal on the internet in the United States. Images have been known to carry illegal circumvention devices such as DECSS. Thus images in themselves are also potential circumvention devices under the DMCA.

    --
    134340: I am not a number. I am a free planet!
    1. Re:In other news... by MadFarmAnimalz · · Score: 3, Funny

      That's ok.

      I use lynx. :-)

      --
      Blearf. Blearf, I say.
  27. Sounds great, sort of... by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 2

    ... but the real measure of steganography is detectability. It is very difficult to make steganography that cannot be detected statistically. Even Outguess is broken now. And I doubt that this method will be "secure," especially if whoever is spying on you watches the image in transit. Then if you subtract the message out you are SCREWED, because they xor and find it, or at least an encrypted version. In any case, they can prove the message is there. However, if they don't have access to your computer until afterward, just erase the images and you're fine, or JPEG them to remove the steg, or whatever. In fact, if nobody is watching your communications, why the heck would you use steg in the first place?? Looks like a proof of principle, not a real steg scheme.

    --
    I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
  28. Covert Channels by DougJohnson · · Score: 3, Informative

    This really isn't that new. There's an example that's a picture of a couple of Zebra's, where they changed from some colour bit depth to a somewhat weaker bit depth, then the bits they saved were used to transmit ascii. Essentially a 32 bit pic was switched to 24 bits, leaving tons of room to include 5 of Shakespeares plays.

  29. Obligatory DMCA Reference by no+soup+for+you · · Score: 4, Funny

    Do not attempt to reverse engineer or theorize about this encryption. They say it's encrypted, that's enough for you.

    --
    If you blog it...
  30. No fake Brittany or Seven of Nine! by SunPin · · Score: 2, Funny

    Now we can confirm the genuine naked pictures from those photoshopped ones...

    --
    Laws are for people with no friends.
  31. Pointless? by interiot · · Score: 2, Insightful
    This seems pointless to me. The image that the common person sees isn't undistorted. To reverse the distortion in the image, you have to run the special program that extracts the hidden data and the original image data as well. If they're planning on everyone having this program that undistorts the image, why don't they just create a new format that's simply {raw image} + {extra data}, and you can run a program that spits out two files from that. If they're planning on having limited usage of the undistorting program to specific people, why don't the authors of the image send two separate files specifically to the intended audience?

    Does anyone know of a good use for this?

    1. Re:Pointless? by Fourier · · Score: 2

      Here's an application as I see it:

      1) Photographer's camera embeds watermark into the image.

      2) Photographs can be freely distributed to anyone. The watermark distortion is generally small, so the casual user would not notice it.

      3) Anyone who is "authorized" (presumably has been given a key of some sort) is able to extract the watermark and view the original image. If the image has been manipulated (resized, airbrushed, etc.), the watermark will be corrupted and the authorized user will become aware of the alteration.

      In the article's example, the camera belongs to a crime scene investigator, and the authorized user is someone assocated with the court system.

      I'm not really sure why CNet picked up on this paper. I don't think it's particularly groundbreaking, and it's certainly not the only watermarking paper that was discussed at ICIP 2002. Wake me up when someone figures out how to watermark an image in a way that is robust to a wide variety of attacks (resizing, denoising/compression, pixel shifting, etc.), and is still invisible to the eye.

  32. Re:Amazing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Isn't this technology or something similar to it being used by terrorist groups to send information to one another via websites? I know you can imbed information in an image created by gimp such as your copyright or other authorship information, and that this probably is being used as such by these groups. I would think that advances in this area would need to be kept quiet for a while, anyway. (Don't give 'em any more tools)

  33. Yes, it's steganography. by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Although I don't really see the point. It's not really worth much as steg as far as I can see, and if the data you change are redundant anyway, you might as well compress them out unless you want to do steg. Silly.

    --
    I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
    1. Re:Yes, it's steganography. by Digitalia · · Score: 1

      Technically, I have not broken the law by merely reading your signature, as your signature is part of an act of communication. Were I to then disseminate your signature, unencrypted, without your permission, I would be guilty as I would have circumvented encryption as a copyright protection measure. Natch?

      --
      Pax Digitalia
    2. Re:Yes, it's steganography. by whereiswaldo · · Score: 1

      .liaj ot oG .ACMD eht detaloiv evah uoy ,gis siht no noitpyrcne eht gnikaerb yB

      I wonder how many man-hours will have been wasted deciphering the contents of this person's sig by the yad eht fo dne.

  34. Careful what you wish for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful
    While this approach has many potentially socially useful applications (e.g., getting data out of censorship regimes without getting caught), it also has a more sinister application.

    If you can "watermark" (not sure if that is technically the right term for what these folks are proposing) something in such a way that it is undetectable to the viewer, then that implies that you can attach a unique ID to any given file -- which is exactly what SDMI attempted to do (and failed, thanks to Prof. Felten's work at Princeton).

    But didn't Felten's paper essentially demonstrate that this sort of perfect information hiding was essentially impossible theoretically? If so, then the Xerox/Rochester guys are wrong. If not, then Felten's paper is wrong and it is possible to insert permanent SDMI-style watermarks in files. I sure hope it's the former and not the latter.

    Perhaps this new approach only has to do with psychovisual tricks and not psychoacoustic stuff -- in which case I suppose they could both be right. Anyone more knowledgeable about this care to comment?

    -Garth M.

    1. Re:Careful what you wish for by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 1

      If you can "watermark" (not sure if that is technically the right term for what these folks are proposing) something in such a way that it is undetectable to the viewer... Of course you can't. If it isn't visible, you can make an image with no watermark at all that looks the same, ie remove it. And this is reversible. So you can remove it by definition.

      --
      I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
  35. It DOES distort the image!!! by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 4, Informative

    ... just reversably, so you can get the original back later. And it isn't watermarking! They use only the LSB, so it won't survive recompression, printing, whatever. You can't encode anything without the image without distorting it, except by permuting the color tables. But that is easily detected and can't store much data anyway.

    --
    I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
    1. Re:It DOES distort the image!!! by Krach42 · · Score: 1

      "By breaking this encryption..." OH FUCK! :( *walks away whistling*

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
  36. wow by Audity · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Now i can tell if the chicks on playboy are all real or digitally altered. This is a great leap forward for internet porn, I can't wait until it becomes mainstream.

  37. Court Evidence Verification? No... by syphoon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "For instance, a digital camera that carries the new algorithms could be used to gather forensic evidence for use later in a courtroom. Any subsequent manipulations of the pictures could be detected, and the area where they occurred could be pinpointed." So if I want to manipulate court evidence, what's stopping me from taking a *screenshot* of the image on screen, manipulating that image, and then re-encoding the hidden data so it appears no editing has taken place?

    1. Re:Court Evidence Verification? No... by jetmarc · · Score: 1

      > So if I want to manipulate court evidence, what's stopping me from taking a *screenshot* of the image on screen, manipulating that image, and then re-encoding the hidden data so it appears no editing has taken place?

      The encoded data is a digital signature of the rest of the picture (everything except those bit "slots" that the signature will be stored in). If you move this signature to another picture, it will fail the signature verificaion. The court can extract the signature allright but it does not match the pictures' (visible) content.

      There is another problem though: hackers might extract the secret signing key from the digital camera (maybe as easy as downloading the latest firmware flash upgrade from the manufacturers support web site). With this key, they can sign any picture, even your photo-of-a-photo.

      The signature mechanism would have to be tamper-proof, for example with a security smart card and other measures. This is a complex problem, by far more complex actually than the "how to embedd the signature into the picture" thing.

      Marc

  38. Hey, if it was hard to write ... by HealYourChurchWebSit · · Score: 1

    What ever happened to the coder's creed that "If it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand and even harder to modify."?

    Honestly, I'm sure "clean encryption" is a good idea, but the phrase just has the oxymoron quality as "software reliability."

    --
    --- have you healed your church website?
  39. Detectable? by FireMage · · Score: 2, Interesting

    My main quetion would be if there is any way to discern between a image holding encrypted data and an unmodified "visual only" image file.

    --
    "Laugh hard, it's a long way to the bank." --TMBG
  40. This is great! by seanadams.com · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Researchers have created a new way to encrypt information in a digital image and extract it later without any distortion or loss of information.

    So, if I can add some information to an image without any loss of information in the original, then I don't see any reason why I couldn't use this technique repeatedly, ad inifinitum, on the resulting image. Therefore, they have created a way to turn any one of my pr0n jpegs into an unlimited storage device.

    This really changes everything we thought we knew about computer science and information theory. What an incredible discovery!

  41. Childs play by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Weren't two kids doing this in "Along Came a Spider" in order to pass notes in class?

  42. May be I'm a little bit jumpy but... by jsse · · Score: 2

    what if terrorists embed secrete messages in p0rns with this technique? In view of the fact that 90% of the images in the Internet are p0rns, it's extremely difficult to check them all out.

    I know steganography for terrorism is no new news, but used that on p0rns is intolerable!

    1. Re:May be I'm a little bit jumpy but... by shmee · · Score: 1

      In view of the fact that 90% of the images in the Internet are p0rns, it's extremely difficult to check them all out.

      I volunteer.

  43. Re:hahaha! xerox the innovation company by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ummm, the University of Rochester makes quite a bit of money on their patents. One of the top schools in the country in this regard, actually, if not the best outright.

  44. These watermarks vs. Digimarc watermarks by yerricde · · Score: 4, Informative

    This is called digital watermarking.

    But unlike Digimarc watermarks, this kind of watermark isn't designed to survive being sent through the analog hole.

    --
    Will I retire or break 10K?
  45. "Optimal" by fireboy1919 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Have you studied any image compression theory? Have you heard of the famed graduate student method for fractal compression?
    Here it is
    1) Lock a graduate student in a room with an image and a huge collection of mathematical knowledge about fractals
    2) Tell him/her to compress the image by finding and modeling fractal patterns
    3) Wait four days...
    VOILA! 10000x compression is not unheard of with 1% or less degredation.

    Ever image format that we use today is sub-optimal. We don't even have a mathematical formalism to perfectly identify the entropy (i.e. information) encoded within an image (though we can make rough estimates) to determine the maximum compression. Also, consider than even given the techniques we have today, jpeg isn't the best thing out there, though it is the standard. jpeg2000 is better, and there are some even more highly sophisticated and accurate wavelet based approaches. If we can ever get the kind of computing power available to the supercomputers of today we can do even better by modeling our images using more complex basis functions than sinusiods and wavelets.

    Just one final note to sum up: finding optimal compression is definitely an NP-hard problem. Who knows what kind of stuff can be thrown in there without affecting much.

    --
    Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
    1. Re:"Optimal" by ebyrob · · Score: 2

      VOILA! 10000x compression is not unheard of with 1% or less degredation.

      Don't forget the graduate student will forget to include much of the other "storage" used for his copy of the image, causing the real world results to be multiplied by mu.

    2. Re:"Optimal" by t · · Score: 1
      What other approaches were you thinking of that are better than jpeg2000?

      Wavelets aren't sinusoids, they are a class of functions that have certain properties whereas a sinusoid is a particular function. I say this because your phrase "more complex basis functions" seems to include wavelets.

      The first part of jpeg2000 only has a couple of wavelets included as part of the standard, but an extension to the standard will allow a user to include their own wavelets. Also only the decoder is defined, thus you could come up with some new nifty way to encode the bits and still have it decodable by a jpeg2000 compliant decoder.

      Seriously though, I'd like to hear of what other methods are out there.

      On a related note, I think the way compression is measured is flawed. It's always relative to the original image data, how well can you recreate the image using some error metric. E.g., if you took a picture of a fractally generated image you have theoretically the original fractal image plus whatever noise your camera added in. Yet when you compress it, the goal is to recreate the image from the camera and not what the camera took a picture of (the fractal image in this example). Thinking of it this way, if you had models of the subject of the photo, you could create a compressed image with more information than the original image since you could eliminate noise that you know shouldn't be there.

  46. Information theory? by captaineo · · Score: 2

    I may be mistaken but I think there is an information theory problem here. How can you add X bits of new information to a Y-bit image without loss (or enlarging the image)?

    Obviously a human viewer isn't going to notice if you just tweak the least significant bits of each pixel, but the article seems to claim that the technique is completely lossless.

    Some people have said "why not just use a separate digital signature?" I think the advantage of this technique is that you could save the image in any lossless format (e.g. BMP or TIFF) and still retain the watermark.

  47. Amazing, nobody here understands the point by goombah99 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    It's amazing no one is seeing why this is useful.

    Lots of people have suggested digitally signing the image. you that would work. But is it simpler? no. now I have to cart around two images, one people can look at in a computer browser and one "signed one" for evidence. I have to make sure I keep one associated with the other at all times. Yes of course I could decode the signed image when I wanted to view it but that's not a general purpose solution. If I make it act and smell like a jpeg or gif then I can easilty treat it as a single file that all existing image viewers can view. Only when I really want the perfect images and the signature do I have to use my special program.

    In fairness I will note that any image format, e.g. jpeg, that has the capabilit to associated additional infomation with an image, also would make a sutiable means of taking care of this. Though possibly not in a robust manner since some programs tinker with the text info in jpegs.

    Now as for whether the camera should do the embedding or embedding should be done afterwards, it makes more sense to let the camera do the embedding if it can. A simple Jpeg pops out and were done.

    Now about information theory not allowing this. that's piffle. proof by construction. First assume that all uncompressed real world images are compressible. compress it how you wish, lossy or losslessly. there is now room informationwise to squeeze in a small watermark.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:Amazing, nobody here understands the point by Requiem+Aristos · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wrong!

      You don't have to carry around two images when you digitally sign one. You just need the image and it's signature (~160 chars or so), and can make both as public as you want.

    2. Re:Amazing, nobody here understands the point by goombah99 · · Score: 2

      What do you mean "wrong!"? you just agreed with my point that you have to cart around two files and somehow keep them associated with each other. That's what I was saying. and it's an unnesseccary pain in the ass. Sure you might have a way of keeing them ogranized, but now say you want to send the image to a defense attourney, or to another jourisdiction. Now they have to have some way of keeping them organized, and mybe their image storage software is different. (maybe they use iPhoto or Adobe Photoshops gallery program)

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  48. Some more information I googled by sambo99 · · Score: 4, Informative

    This stuff is in the process of being patented

    The abstract of the paper (Reversible Data Hiding) is: "We present a novel reversible (lossless) data hiding (embedding) technique, which enables the exact recovery of the original host signal upon extraction of the embedded information. A generalization of the well-known LSB (least significant bit) modification is proposed as the data embedding method, which introduces additional operating points on the capacity-distortion curve. Lossless recovery of the original is achieved by compressing portions of the signal that are susceptible to embedding distortion, and transmitting these compressed descriptions as a part of the embedded payload. A prediction-based conditional entropy coder which utilizes static portions of the host as side-information improves the compression efficiency, and thus the lossless data embedding capacity"

    In case anyone is interested.

    --
    - Sam
  49. Steganography by Chris+Burke · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Well, you can blame the editor, but it's really the article's fault. What they're really talking about is lossless steganography, which is a neater trick. The idea is to hide data in a standard (eg. GIF) image, and be able to extract that data while at the same time preserving the entire image. For the applications they talk about (watermarking), the hidden information is encrpyted, which may be why that word showed up.

    I'm curious about their claims. Do they claim to be able to hide the data in an existing image format without image loss? For formats like GIF, it'd be tough, because compressed data (by design) lacks the redundant bits Information Theory demands before you can start cramming extra bits of data into the same space. They certainly wouldn't be able to guarantee that the image was without quality loss before removing and correcting for the watermark. ;)

    So I guess I'm not sure what they're claiming.

    Though I think for the applications they are stating, actual hiding of the data isn't the point. You don't care if people know that there is some data hidden in the image, you only care that they can't read it or forge it. It'd be much easier then, because you could make a new file format. Shit, all you'd have to do is take a .PNG, stick an encrpyted md5 sum at the back, and call it (S)ecurePNG.

    Which isn't a bad idea, actually... You could do some of the things they talked about.

    For digitizing contracts, both parties would put an md5 sum encrpyted with their private keys in the image of the contract. Anyone (e.g. the Court) can read the md5 sums and verify that a copy of the contract is legitimate.

    For verifying forensics photos, the camera they used would have to encrypt all the photos it takes with a private key (the Courts, again?) not known to the police officers who do the work. I think this is unworkable.

    The only problem with both of these ideas is that they are only worth as much as you can trust that the private keys have not been compromised. If you're going to be convicting people on the basis of signed police photos, you'd better be damn sure that the police couldn't have possibly discovered the private key hidden in the camera's hardware.

    But like I said, this doesn't involve hiding data in a photograph. I'm just wondering what the -purpose- of the steganography was actually supposed to be. Why is it important that the information be -concealed-?

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
    1. Re:Steganography by RockyJSquirel · · Score: 2

      It should be REALLY easy to hide data in a JPEG without loss of quality or change in measurable statistics if you're encoding from the original uncompressed source.

      When a compressor reduces an image to a JPEG there's a loss of information in the quantization.

      Some coefficients will be almost exactly between two quantization levels, so either choice would be equally bad. In those cases you have the freedom of one bit without loss of quality.

      Let's say you encode data by grouping coeficients into bundles of 20, and expect to get a single bit of information out of each bundle by xoring all of members together. Odds are that at least one of those coeficients had the freedom to change.

      Easy.

      No I didn't find the paper listed. I posted this idea on slashdot a long time ago.

      Rocky J. Squirrel

    2. Re:Steganography by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2

      Except if you care about quality enough to worry about 1-bit errors, then you wouldn't have been using a lossy format in the first place.

      JPEG would never cut it for forensics photos.

      Not that this also isn't a good idea. I'm just saying it doesn't match what the article suggests. :)

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    3. Re:Steganography by hyperturbopete · · Score: 1

      JPEG would never cut it for forensics photos.

      except that JPEG is the de-facto standard for images (especially since digital cameras automatically make jpegs).

      btw, you can have very high-quality (but large filesize) jpegs by using quality 100 and eliminating the subsampling when encoding. (it will make no difference for the viewers).

    4. Re:Steganography by jgp · · Score: 1

      Whether hidden information is detectable is a rather useful property of steganographic encoding. You could, for example, use a PRNG to generate a sequence of candidate pixels to 'taget' for LSB theft such that without the PRNG seed, you don't know where to start and hence can't decode the message.

      I haven't read the proposal but it doesn't sound too dissimilar to the above, but with the restriction that (a) the data encoded is actually a signed hash of the original message and additionally (b) an entropy encoded bit-steam that can be used to restore the LSBs that were stolen.

      As long as you can squeeze the sequence of 'restoration' bits, you can make room for the signature. There is probably a lot of scope for searching for an optimal choice of images bits to steal such that the error magnitude is mininal (ie. finding the seed such that a minimal sequence of bits are used that can still encoded to make room for the signature).

      Or something like that.

    5. Re:Steganography by jgp · · Score: 1

      'target'

  50. Misleading title. by KFury · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The title "Encrypt information in images without distortion" is really misleading. It suggests (err, states) that the sego process doesn't change the image. It certainly does. The only interesting bit is that it's reversable.

    So while it's not lossy in the final analysis, and the original version can be reclaimed, it does actually distort the image, while the hidden message is contained within.

    1. Re:Misleading title. by leuk_he · · Score: 2

      With our new data embedding algorithm, authorized recipients not only can extract the embedded message but also can recover the original image intact, identical bit for bit to the image before the data was added," he said. "The technique offers a significantly higher capacity for embedding data and/or a lower-distortion than any of the alternatives."

      So i read this as "it can be lossy if you want it to. "

  51. 2 Faults by frovingslosh · · Score: 2
    Poor story post for at least 2 reasons:

    It claims adding information to an image without distortion, but in reality the story actually tells of distorting the image in a way that, if needed, could later be reversed and removed. But the distortion is there none the less until it is removed, which removes the "signature".

    While it claims that any editing of the image would be detectable (because it modifies the encoded watermark), a reversable system solves this problem nicely: Reverse the process and take out the watermark. Edit the image any way you want (change Britney's dalmation to a poodle, for example). Then apply the watermark to the new image. I saw no proof or even claim that, if the watermake is reversable (which is the whole point of having the technology) then it wouldn't be easy to mark false images with the same watermark.

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
  52. It uses heuristics... by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 1

    The algo must either add to the length, or else assume that the picture has reasonable properties such as corellation of LSB, etc. They aren't claiming infinite compression, just a new steg/watermarking thing. Big whoop.

    --
    I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
    1. Re:It uses heuristics... by buswolley · · Score: 1
      It was sarcasm I beleive. Anyway I don't know anything.

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

  53. it's rather elegant and simple by Mr.+Asdf · · Score: 1

    I feel that most of the above posters are missing the point of what they [UR and Xerox] are actually doing. The problem with normal information embedding is that some of the least significant bits are irreversibly altered, whether it's noticeable to the naked eye or not. This idea is taking a portion of the image's least significant bits, compressing them, and adding whatever they want (checksums, author info, etc.) with the compressed data and embedding that into the extra space left over. The amount of data that they can add depends on the entropy of the least significant bits in the image. A completely random picture (white noise), will probably not work for them. The fact is, almost any picture that is worth looking at, whether it be gif, jpeg, bmp, whatever, will have enough entropy to add a significant amount of info to the picture. This is truly an elegent and simple idea.

  54. You can't. by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 1

    You have to either add new bits, or make some assumptions about the original image. Remember, most reasonably normal images can be compressed losslessly, if not by very much, so you should be able to add a few extra bits losslessly under similar assumptions.

    --
    I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
    1. Re:You can't. by captaineo · · Score: 2

      I see. You could take advantage of redundancy in the source image. Thanks...

  55. Did i break the law? by CableModemSniper · · Score: 1

    By breaking the encryption on this sig, you have violated the DMCA. Go to jail.

    --
    Why not fork?
    1. Re:Did i break the law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know, it's ass-monkeys like you who keep the mainstream from taking criticism of the DMCA seriously.

    2. Re:Did i break the law? by CableModemSniper · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, the huge mainstream that reads slashdot.

      --
      Why not fork?
  56. manipulations by telstar · · Score: 3, Funny

    I've got a 1 pixel image. Can it detect when I rotate it 360 degrees and perform a mirror translation on it?

    Telstar

  57. the age we live in... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    5:04pm: scientist: "we're releasing new software based security technology"

    5:04:45pm: haxor : "we're releasing a new software to bypass that security"

  58. But by KidSock · · Score: 3, Funny

    it's only worth a 1000 words.

  59. Zero Distortion HOWTO by Effugas · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes, I originally thought it was impossible.

    Then I sat down, and realized what's going probably on here (the CNet article didn't specify, and I didn't think to track down the original work. Foo on me. So I'm pulling this out of my proverbial ass.)

    Perfectly random images are indeed impossible to add data to without creating some form of irreversable distortion. Suppose you had a "remove transformation" mask embedded in the included transform. This mask itself would take information, which would then need to be added to the transform, which would increase the size of the transform, thus necessitating a bigger mask, ad nauseum. So you could never embed the reversal instructions.

    However, photographs are not perfectly random. Along the light wavelengths that nature selected for humans to sense, significant patterns exist -- edges, gradients, shapes, and so on. Though precise intensities eventually hit perfect randomness at absolute sensitivity, digital photographs (even without JPEG) quantize imagery into 8 bits per channel -- 24 bits total. So those patterns we see actually create significant regions of reduced entropy -- less information in the image than there is otherwise room for.

    And that's the key -- because once there's extra capacity, we can embed both some message and the means to remove that message in the extra space. Then it's just a matter of using one of a thousand ways to share the secret across all the low entropy regions of the image, and you're done.

    No, it doesn't violate information theory. Yes, it's mildly cool. No, it's nothing like a public key steganographic system -- there's nothing inherent about the system that prevents unauthorized removal, or even unauthorized addition of the watermark. But it's a useful adjunct -- concievably, it'd be at the heart of a watermarking system that fingerprinted audio and video in low-entropy segments, then removed the fingerprint before it hit the d/a converter.

    I'm pretty sure the strategy extends to floating point representations as well, though there's likely much less compressability due to noisy capture circuitry and higher raw entropy in the signal.

    Yours Truly,

    Dan Kaminsky
    DoxPara Research
    http://www.doxpara.com

    1. Re:Zero Distortion HOWTO by leuk_he · · Score: 2

      In other words:

      -lossless compress it, since real life pictures are always compressable.
      -Add Data, upto original size of file.
      (-Add a hash/sign it)

  60. great by v8interceptor · · Score: 1

    I can now place DeCSS into a picture of my ass and the MPAA will never know! Awesome!

    --
    --- Why are you wearing that stupid bunny suit? | Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
    1. Re:great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or you could place a picture of the MPAA into your ass and DeCSS would never know...

  61. And what's even more... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since it's reversible, it can be removed from the picture. So, an adversary could (theoretically) remove it and watermark it with his own data. Note the word theoretically...

  62. Anyone else find it ironic... by Grip3n · · Score: 3, Funny

    That we're trying to prove an image hasn't been tampered with by tampering with the image?

    --
    To make a pun demonstrates the highest understanding of a language
  63. easiest steganography by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just arrange items in the background of the picture.
    For example .. standing in front of a table with a window that shows that it's night outside can mean "meet me at 8pm"

    etc.

    FIA. That's steganography. And meets all signal detection requirements. And nobody can prove a message is being sent.

    -Johan

  64. Re:Like pervo 2nd-law violations by noshellswill · · Score: 0

    Additions without distortions, eh ... something for nothings, eh ... hummmm - seems to me that's been tried. So move along, pad're nothing to see here.

  65. Re:Like pervo 2nd-law violations by noshellswill · · Score: 0

    Yes, the 2nd-law does NOT like to be violated.

  66. abstact here by leuk_he · · Score: 2

    I cannot read the ieee link (the abstract is for members only) but google found this abstact for me:

    Watermarking :

    We present a novel reversible (lossless) data hiding (embedding) technique, which enables the exact recovery of the original host signal upon extraction of the embedded information......

  67. Steganography isn't the point by Cato+the+Elder · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The point isn't to hide the data you're encrypting in, it's to be able to recover the original image. With a naive steganography scheme, you lose information in the original image. This is bad, if for instance, the encrypted information is a time/date/id stamp and the image is a crime scene photo--you could obscure important evidence.

    1. Re:Steganography isn't the point by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 1

      The point isn't to hide the data you're encrypting in, it's to be able to recover the original image.

      Right. But what I haven't figured out is, why are you putting more data in the image in the first place? It seems this would make a really bad steg scheme, and reversibility is about useless in steg anyway. If you're trying to store data with the image, put it in the comments field. If you're trying to exploit the redundancies in the image to put in more data, just compress the image to remove the redundancies, then store the data side-by-side or in the comments field.

      [naive stego loses data] This is bad, if for instance, the encrypted information is a time/date/id stamp and the image is a crime scene photo...

      Yup. Which is why you write down the information instead of putting it in the photo. And if you put it in the photo, you put it in the comments field. And if you're worried about that being faked, you sign it with [P]GP[G]. Encrypting it in the image and then removing it later seems, well, silly at the very least: the whole point of watermarks is that they're irreversible (and hard to get rid of). Although I'm not so sure anymore that steg is the point, I have decided that, while cool, this technology has basically no practical application. So it's sort of dumb to keep arguing over what exactly the application of this is.

      --
      I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
  68. Encrypt Images In Information Without Distortion by Harald74 · · Score: 2, Funny

    For all those collectors of illegal pr0n...

    --
    A)bort, R)etry or S)elf-destruct?
  69. Encrypt Information In Images Without DETECTION by CurbyKirby · · Score: 1

    Sometimes recovering the original image is not as important as hiding the steganography in a harder to detect fashion. Here is a steg tool that tries to do just that, by keeping statistical properties of the steg-carrying data.

    --

    --
    "Extra Anus Kills Four-Legged Chick" -- Headline
  70. Yeah, i work for money, but it's pointless by sICE · · Score: 1


    each time i read something like this, i smile... i'd like to tell my boss "i'm working on a damn new version of xor to hide data into gifs and it will help a drunk policeman to not alter its camera after some plane crash somewhere... blah blah blah".

    sadly it isnt the case. whatever, anyway i just hang here and that's cool enough.

    why peoples think they can achieve such 'protection'. they can embed some data in a picture? i probably can too... well, not today, my blood is full of yesterday's beers, mmm, that maybe explains why i'm posting so dumb msgs. anyway, what's the problem with such stuff?

    with encryption, the main problem is how much time does it takes for someone to decipher a message? with that thing it doesnt even apply, in fact the question is how can one make this fake pic looks like it was taken by policeman x at moment y. i probably oversimplify, but it remembers me of some 'touch -m 10111735 /etc/passwd'... what about you?

    http://freddo.netfirms.com/

  71. What about virii? by AccUser · · Score: 1

    At the bottom of the article is a link [news.com] which describe viral payloads being transmitted via jpeg images. One of the problems is that the payload is visible because it corrupts the image. Not any more...

    --

    Any fool can talk, but it takes a wise man to listen.

  72. DataGlyphs by panurgy · · Score: 1

    If I had to guess, they're probably incorporating some of Xerox's DataGlyph technology to make this work. If someone were to digitally alter the image, it'd break the code that stored within the image. Yet at the same time, the image can be printed, snail-mailed, scanned, and then digitally verified that it has not been altered.

  73. They changed it? by yeti+(dn) · · Score: 1

    Strange. When I read the article linked on /. the first time, it talked about type I and type II distortions, and how the original lowest bits are compressed and stored in the hidden info.

    But when I read this comment and returned to the article to prove you false, it was different, considerable shorter with much less technical info. Someone had to change it!

    Either I've been hit by US of A encryption export regulation, or it's a bug in the Martix.

    Is anybody able to find the original (technical) article?

    --
    Life is the slowest way to death.
  74. If Hollywood says it's true... ;-) by NotTheNickIWanted · · Score: 1
    Hollywood has done it too, or at least offered us the suggestion that it could be done in 2001.

    I seem to remember mention of children passing notes in a classroom by hiding the text inside image files, in Paramount Pictures' Along Came a Spider.

    --

    unsigned int question = 0x2B | ~(0x2B)
  75. How is this different from EXIF or DIG35? by N8F8 · · Score: 2

    Metadata standards such and DIG35 and EXIF are already in place for many image formats. How is this better or different? Microsoft already adds proprietary field to the metadata, how hard would it be to add your own metadata fields for encrypted data?

    --
    "God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
  76. Info without distortion -- no problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are compression methods with dynamic and static code books. Dynamic code books change on the fly in parallel at sender and receiver. Static code books are the result of a global optimization and are transmitted with the data. Now often when you have to do a code book, you have choices that are equally bad (happens much more often with Huffman codes than with arithmetic codes, but the latter is rarely used because of patent reasons). Whenever I have an arbitrary choice to make at the sending side, I do it depending on the next bit of the info I want to hide. The receiver can then do the same and track the bits stuffed in that way. Not many bits of storage will be there, but on larger images or similar, small amounts of info might fit.

  77. Digital time stamping by quasar · · Score: 1

    Digital time stamping e.g. the algorithm used by Surety, inc., guarantees a digital document isn't changed from the original time of registry without touching one pristine pixel of the original image. I think this thing is better for steganography than for demonstrating authenticity.

  78. Actually NOT $tupid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful


    If you make your $ from pr0n, this would be a godsend. Hackers -> distorted image. Paid accounts -> good image. Simple as that. AND puts the processing burden on the user's PC.

  79. Why this is important by TheRealFoxFire · · Score: 1

    I think most people here are missing the point. The evolutionary idea here is that in the Type II encode, the stegonography does create an image that is distorted (there's no way around that if you modify the color bits). HOWEVER, it stores its modifications in the hidden data.

    This means that a piece of software thats capable of reading the hidden data can also output the unmodified image.

    But if you can get at the unmodified image, isn't this trivially defeated for watermarking purposes? By itself, yes. But this opens the door for combining the algorithm with an implementation that runs on a "trusted" computing base. If, for example, the Type II watermark is encrypted, and the decryption is controlled by Palladium, Voila, secure DRM for images.

    1. Re:Why this is important by t · · Score: 1
      Replace "Voila" with "And a miracle occurs..."

      You have not created secure anything, all you have done is transfer the job of security to a third party (palladium).

      Other "secure" formats: DVD, encrypted e-books, ...

      Better yet, name one secure format.

    2. Re:Why this is important by WNight · · Score: 2

      Some copyright schemes rely on the idea of voluntary reporting of your copies of copyrighted material, with the idea that you've already paid, or that the fee only goes so high, but that by reporting which material you have, the fees go to the correct authors.

      This type of watermarking is ideal for that. It doesn't distort the image at all. The lack of "security" isn't a problem because the system assumes that if you aren't paying more, you'll be happy to report the copyrighted works you possess because it'll go to supporting the authors whose work you like.

  80. Whoa is this new? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought everyone was doing this.. we've been doing this for years. Maybe we should go apply for a patent.

  81. Re:If Hollywood says it's true... ;-) by andrew_0812 · · Score: 1, Informative

    Yes, they did include steganography in Along came a Spider. Steganography is not a new technology. People have been encoding data in digital images for years now. It involves replacing the least significant bit(s) of an image with the data. The human eye cannot notice the subtle color shifts that this causes. The more data that you encrypt, the more significant bits must be replaced, and the more distortion to the image. This is also a technology that it was speculated (but never proven to my knowledge) that Bin Laden and the AlQuida group had been using to communciate with operatives around the world.

  82. Obvious how this can be done... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Take your message and encrypt, use to scatter the bits of the message onto the image. Any simple encoding like least significant bit in the pixel will work. Then set the bit or the parity of those picture bits. If someone doesn't have the key they can't tell which picture bits to pull out. Any distortion of the image will move the bits around so the message gets lost. If message is lost, you know the picture has been tampered with. This is a feature of some vanilla stego that has been known for years. Whether you want to save the altered bits somewhere else and put them back is a minor refinement. It has been remarked in the literature that setting the parity of the pixel instead of setting just the low bit gives less distortion making the stego somewhat harder to detect.

  83. I'm Calling 'bullshit' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    What a bunch of bullshit.

    If the resulting image looks _no_ different (as they said - no image distortion) then you can merely do a screen capture and get an image without the data embedded. It sounds like the data they are hiding is, effectively, just in the data file. Of course, I'm sure they diddle with pixels, it's not like they are concatenating a text file with a jpg. BUT, if they truly have distortionless data hiding, then at the end of the day, the info isn't in the image - it's in the file only.

    And if they lied and there is a little image distortion - congratualtions on your new form of watermarking!

  84. And this is hard because ....? by mr3038 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    If this works with lossless image formats, here's a simple way to achieve the same. I haven't read the paper so this could be practically same they're doing. For simplicity I describe a way to embed 8 bits of data in every pixel in a 24bit image.

    1. Extract some LSBs from every pixel from all RGB components (3 from R, 2 from G, 3 from B) and generate a stream from those bits.
    2. Append your secret message in the stream generated in the previous step.
    3. Compress the stream with any algorithm (e.g. bzip2) and make sure you get size in bytes less than or equal to number of pixels in the original image[1]. Pad with zeros if size of compressed stream is less than number of pixels in the image.
    4. Combine the stream with the image inserting bits from the stream to positions where we extracted bits in the first step and save the image any lossless way to want. The image quality will be reduced roughly to the same quality as 16 bit version would be but the original image can be restored from the compressed substream. During decompression, first there'll equally many bytes of image data as there're pixels in the original image and all the remaining data is the embedded message.

    [1] This is possible because all natural images have very little information in the LSBs of every pixel and those should compress well. If the image is truly random down to LSB there's no way any algorithm can embed extra information in those pixels.

    This will be probably patented. At least this is a bit more complicated than sideways swinging.

    --
    _________________________
    Spelling and grammar mistakes left as an exercise for the reader.
  85. Re:Encrypted is not NEARLY enough for me by Moirke · · Score: 1

    This is how horrible encryption algorithms get released to the public. When Windows CE was first released Microsoft would encrypt a users NT password and store it on the handheld device. This allowed faster sinking w/ main computer. They said the password was encrypted and for most people that was good enough for them. They encrypted it using an XOR w/ susagep (i believe). It was CE project name in reverse. This took about 6 days to crack.

  86. For more information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here's a direct link to the professor's (A. Murat Tekalp) page of published papers at the U. of Rochester. Paper 6 is by the same four authors as the current paper (which he hasn't posted on his site yet).

  87. Hardly Foolproof by joel2600 · · Score: 1

    Using this type of stegonography as a method to validate authenticity isn't really that effective. You still need a way to extract the information and something to compare it to to validate it. If you have the end result of the validation you can simply just alter the image and then just re-encode the data and then the image becomes authentic again. just my 2 cents.

  88. Slap me upside the head with a herring, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    why not just record the file's md5sum, and compare it with the md5sum of the possibly-altered file?

  89. OT: Your sig... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The overrated moderation is like saying, "this post sucks, because."

    No, the point of moderation is to make sure that people who are browsing at a higher threshold only see the comments that are good enough for that threshold.

    Now, something may be informative, but not so informative that someone browsing at +5 would want to read it.
    This is where the Overrated moderation comes in... I use it on posts that I thought were good posts, just not that good, that's the entire point of it.
    I think to myself: "If I was browsing at +5 is this something I'd really want to see?" If the answer is "Hell no, I wouldn't want to waste my time with that." I moderate it as Overrated.

  90. Much easier/faster method! by JosefWells · · Score: 1

    Just ROT13 your "secret message" and stick it in the jpeg comment field!

  91. It's being done the hard way by oldstrat · · Score: 2

    .
    No information needs to be added to an image at all.

    The easy way is to create an algorithm that finds information in a random image that matches your message.
    Transmit the key to that data by some secure means, send the image in the open, or even just a pointer to it.

    Without the key the data cannot be found, and the original image was never changed.

    Think about the Library job of Robert Redfords character in the 1975 movie 'Three Days of the Condor'