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Speaking Out For Free Software In India
inode_buddha writes "We all know how RMS and Bill Gates toured India recently, with mostly mixed reviews. The reviews don't seem so mixed after reading this memo
regarding the use of software in Indian schools... and it's interesting how quickly these people pick up on the business.
IMHO, this letter ranks up there with the Peruvian Congressman's letter to Microsoft in clarity and impact.
People worldwide are beginning to wake up, and this needs to be shouted from the (networked) hills... "
Personally, I think opensource is a great alternative for counteries who are not as wealthy as the united state might be. (I mean, when it comes to public services... schools.. and the like) and would be a great way to save on huge licensing fees... and thus help the technological expansion of said foreign country.
Excuse me, I don't mean to impose, but I am the ocean
Another flamebait post against MS. Can we move on? Please?
1.3 Even if the said corporation whose software is chosen provides software free of cost, we submit that the government should not include it in the syllabus. Providing schools or other educational institutions software at little or no cost, while the same software is sold at very high prices in the open market is a marketing trick.
Its official - India is smarter then the USA.
Sex - Find It
Currently ther's been a lot of talk about things like the DMCA and other laws which restrict infomation flow in different ways
This all makes me wonder... could it be possible that countries who are more open source avare and benefit less from proprietary software would introduce laws which restrict the possibilities for proprietary software, just as some laws already restrict open source software in countries which benefit more from proprietary software.
Thoughts anyone?
.: Max Romantschuk
Rather sad/ironic that the USA is really the last to embrase Open Source. Hey, it's still not legal to play a DVD.
You'd think the PC industry would go to bat against hollywood, since actual illegial copying helps then out a great deal.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
and whether it competes successfully against Microsoft can really only be fought in these newly technologically maturing countries such as India and China. The war against Microsoft was long ago lost to the US. 95% of all OS are Microsoft in the US. But in China and India there is still a chance that Microsoft will not gain a majority much less a monopoly. Let's work together with these countries to ensure that Microsoft doesn't become a global monopoly and eventually more powerful than the US government!
Yeah, it's easy to come up with impressive amounts when your currency is that weak and when you put a coma between fscking pairs of digits.
India has a huge enough population and an already established I.T sector that even if half the population of educated proffesionals support either M$ or open src they're already big winners. The obvious bonus is to get the most behind you. I don't know what RMS is going to do, Gates has already won the popularity contest.
Analytic & algebraic topology of locally Euclidean meterization of infinitely differentiable Riemmanian manifold
I am very glad that some people in the world are beginning to 'get it' when it comes to open source. Even if microsoft has crippling control over America, open-source still has a chance in other parts of the world.
Now it is our duty as an open-source community to create USABLE software that any Indian government official, or peruvian office worker, can use. Now that people are starting to see the light, we need to standardize a gui (I would say gnome is the most user friendly and usable one), standardize a web browser (mozilla anyone?), remove the need for archaic unix 'command prompts' and create a good suite of office tools that are on par with microsoft office.
Now is our chance to have open-source software become popular throughout the world, we just have to make sure that it can compete and is compatible with microsoft's products before people will make the big switch!
Stanley Feinbaum, professional journalist and master debater! God bless the USA!
It seems that third-world nations, which don't have the option of pouring money down a never-ending sink hole, understand what so many organizations (such as the US military) don't: that free software, in addition to having zero license costs, also has a much lower TCO due to its ability to scale up/down to fit the available hardware, and the ease of management (update all the school's machines? not a problem with rsync, for example)
The only problem is, India's IT sector seems permanently wedded to Microsoft. However, if the new generation can grow up exposed to BSD and Linux and understand that MS isn't always the best option, then maybe some much-needed competition on the desktop will finally develop on a global scale.
However, I'm concerned with the possibility that those who seek to convince India to adopt an open source solution might actually succeed. While Microsoft software (and an array of polished software, purchased seperately) is certainly more expensive for us to procure, it sounds like the deal they are making for the schools will give them something that is complete and easy to use and maintain.
Having done a great deal of research into TCO (total cost of ownership), I conclude that Microsoft is actually offering the better deal. The expense of maintaining a Free Software solution, in their situation where they have to patch in their own language and work without a great deal of interconnectivity, eclipses the amount they would spend on the solution Microsoft can hand to them.
It's just one of those strange circumstances where free costs more than commercial. Advocacy of Open Source is definitely the good fight; irregardless, reading the memo reminds me that one must always focus on the larger picture.
Being Microsoft and all, this comes as little surprise... but my goodness that sounds like a great deal of money to be spent on operating systems, even if its in rupees and not dollars. Anyone got the conversion for Rupees to Dollars?
Quality of the app is what's important, not the cost. A free app is worthless if it doesn't do what I need. I would ratherpay for performance over taking free inferiority. The zealots can't seem to grasp this.
To
1. The Principal Secretary,
General Education Department,
Government of Kerala,
Thiruvananthapuram.
2. The Director of Public Instruction,
Poojapura,
Thiruvananthapuram.
3. State Council of Education Research and Training,
SCERT Buildings, Poojapura. P. O.,
Thiruvananthapuram -12
4. Executive Director,
IT@ School Project,
State Project Office, Ground Floor,
SCERT Buildings, Poojapura. P. O.,
Thiruvananthapuram -12.
5. The Secretary to the Government of Kerala,
Information Technology Department,
Thiruvananthapuram.
Memorandum Submitted by Members of the Free Software Users' Group, Kochi, Maruti Vilas Lodge, Canon Shed Road, Cochin - 682011.
Sirs,
Ref:- IT@School Project - choice of software and syllabus -
We, the undersigned, have recently come across what the government calls the IT@SCHOOL project. We are extremely happy and fully endorse the objectives and intention behind the scheme, in so far as the government has made it possible to bring IT education to even very poor students in our State, at a nominal cost. We are very much proud of our government in that our government is one of the few governments in the world which has made it possible to bring IT education to the masses at a very nominal cost as envisaged in the IT@SCHOOL scheme.
However, we submit that implementation of the scheme as it is would harm the long term interests of our State, the general public and the Country. There would be very serious violation of our citizens' basic legal and constitutional rights. We understand that the government has made a few changes within the past few weeks to the syllabus and textbooks. But, we submit that the changes do not go far enough to redress the real issues involved in the matter. We wish, by this letter, to bring to your kind attention, the following issues and request you to remedy them without further delay.
1. Choice of Software and Commercial Fairness
1.1 We find the manner in which the software to be used at the schools is chosen, and manner in which it is chosen, to be disturbing. The syllabus has prescribed software by brand. It is regrettable that the government has not framed or adopted any guidelines or standards to be followed for choosing the software. The IT@SCHOOL project patronises and prefers one brand over other products; and in making this choice, the government has not followed due procedure laid down by law. We submit that this is not fair to creators and vendors of other software.
1.2 We gather that there are nearly 2600 high schools in Kera1a. The scheme envisages that each school should have 10 computers within next three years. Cost of prescribed operating system is approximately Rs. 3500/- per computer. The application software specified in the syllabus costs another Rs. 25,000/- per computer. At the prescribed ratio of 10 computers per school, by the year 2004, this will cost the schools an astounding Rs. 74,10,00,000/- (rupees seventy four crores and ten lakhs) - (Rs. 3,500 + Rs. 25,000 = Rs. 28,500 x 10 computers per school x 2600 schools).
1.3 Even if the said corporation whose software is chosen provides software free of cost, we submit that the government should not include it in the syllabus. Providing schools or other educational institutions software at little or no cost, while the same software is sold at very high prices in the open market is a marketing trick. The corporation resorts to such tactics in order to reap benefits of having a pool of people who are familiar with their software packages and thus form an assured customer base, either as users themselves or as potential skilled employees. We are aware that equipping our students and teachers with skills in computer usage is the primary aim of the project.
1.4 But, by confining students' training to a particular brand of software, the government would be giving undue preference to a particular vendor and their software thus discriminating against vendors of other software. Thus, even by providing software free of cost to the schools, the said company will make immense profits, to the detriment of public welfare and without any corresponding gain to the public, state or institutions. You will recognise that this policy discriminates against vendors of other software and in favour of a particular corporation. You would be aware that this is discrimination and unconstitutional.
1.5 The Supreme Court has laid down in several cases that the government shall be fair and equitable in choosing beneficiaries of government activities. The IT@SCHOOL project involves expenses from funds; created with authorization from government and in pursuance of and compliance with guidelines and rules issued by the State government or other statutory authorities in exercise of statutory power vested in them by the Kerala Education Act. Hence, the government has an obligation to act fairly and equitably while choosing software for school curriculum. But, regrettably, we find that there is not even an attempt to act fairly in the matter of prescribing syllabus and curriculum for the IT@SCHOOL project.
1.6 We also would like to point out that Government's approach would result in compelling not only schools, but also the general public to purchase software from this particular vendor in the future, because people have been denied access to software from other vendors. This would create a monopoly in favour of that corporation and expose the public, the State and the nation to the mercy of a single company. It may be recalled that this particular corporation has been found guilty of unfair, monopolistic and restrictive trade practices in its own country.
1.7 We note that in G.O. (MS) No.297/2001/G. Edn. dated 29.09.2001 the government has specified that 'Volume licensing terms of necessary software will be negotiated with software manufacturers'. This is a very regrettable approach on part of the government. Negotiations can be only between persons or bodies having equal bargaining power. A prerequisite of equal bargaining power is that that both parties have the freedom of choice. But, when schools are compelled to purchase a particular brand because it is prescribed in the syllabus, the schools have no real choice and hence, no real negotiating power. Thus the concept of negotiation looses relevance.
2. Government Should Specify Standards Rather Than Products or Brands
2.1 The computer and the software which drives it are the communication media of the future. Even today, digital media has replaced traditional forms of communication in several situations. Digital communication interposes machine language (language of the computer) between humans. Human language, whether it be the spoken word, the written verse, or visual symbols all are converted to machine language by the computer which originates communication and are converted back to human understandable form by the computer which receives the communication. It is therefore a prerequisite of free and unhindered computerised communication between humans that computers understand languages 'spoken' by each other. Language used by one machine need not be the same as the language used by another. But, different machines/computers can understand each other using internationally accepted standards. Such standards need to be openly available and accessible to the public. While prescribing software for schools, the government has an important role of ensuring that software prescribed or selected conforms to such standards.
2.2 The corporation whose brands and products are prescribed does not publish standards used in their software. Even in respect of standards recognized by the entire industry, this particular corporation is known to create its own variations outside the scope of such universal standards. Such extensions to the standards are not published by this corporation and information/files/ programs using such extensions cannot be accessed except with applications or programs available exclusively from that particular corporation. This practice compels not only users of products from that vendor, but also other people who are forced to interact with users of that vendor's products (like the government and schools, in this case) to purchase software from this particular vendor alone. This situation is known as 'vendor lock-in' or 'vendor dependence'. This is contrary to public interest and harmful to the society in the long run. The government should not create an atmosphere which facilitates such dependence. It is essential that the government and schools insist on using software which uses and conforms to freely available standards so that people who interact with them are not forced to use software from the same vendor as the government or the schools.
2.3 It should be realised that vendor dependence is extremely expensive for the government in the long term. We will elaborate on this issue below.
2.4 We wish to bring to the attention of the Government that several software packages, both applications as well as operating systems, which conform to industry-wide standards, adopted and maintained by independent vendors - both non profit organizations and for profit commercial bodies (individuals and corporations) are available. A list of vendors who sell such products for a price is available at web sites like, http://www.gnu.org/directory/ and http:// forum.gnu.org.in/bizdir and, probably, there are other vendors who have not been listed on such sites.
2.5 In these circumstances, by prescribing that software of a particular brand alone shall be used, the Government is cutting off access to a wider choice for itself and the citizens of Kerala and also cutting off the possibility of tremendous savings of money for itself and the citizens of Kerala. In the long run, such restrictions on the ability to choose would ultimately restrict ability of computers and people to interact with each other through computers.
3. The Issue of Copyright
3.1 We notice that the government has been very meticulous in prescribing the hardware to be used along with indicative prices. However, there is no provision for software costs in the estimates and accounting guidelines published as part of the IT@SCHOOL scheme.
3.2 This approach will encourage schools to make unauthorized copies of software. The law as it stands now prohibits copying of software by schools without permission. Therefore, the government has a duty to ensure that rules / regulations / guidelines framed by it facilitates compliance with law by the persons or bodies targeted by such rules or guidelines. We submit that the government's approach of not providing sufficient funds for purchase of software will bring the schools into conflict with the law relating to Copyrights and the harsh license enforcement programs by the software corporations. Ultimately, this will expose school managements, (including government run schools) to litigation, including criminal action by copyright holders of software prescribed. Hence, it is essential that software to be used in schools are made available under a license which incorporates freedom of use.
3.3 Management of software licenses is a complex task, requiring constant legal supervision. Large corporations vending proprietary software enforce their license restr-ictions harshly - even claiming that the visual appearance of the screen is copyrighted. Thus, even use of 'screen shots' in textbooks without appropriate permissions will invite action from the copyright owners against the gover-nment and its agencies responsible for preparing text books.
3.4 We understand that the government has not received any consent from the copyright holders to use screen shots in the text books. We would like to point out that certain corporations have initiated litigation in other foreign countries, claiming copyright over screen appearance. We do not want our government to be put in such embarrassing situations by uninformed use of inappropriate software and technology. We hope and trust that the government will see reason and exclude proprietary software from the school curriculum.
3.5 We also would like to point out that due to inappropriate handling of licensing issues, several schools in the United States of America have, in recent past, found that they are unable to answer Microsoft Corporation's request for an account of licenses for the number of computers used by them. For example, in 1994-95, some schools in Los Angeles have had to pay fines of up to $300,000 (equivalent of Rupees 1,44,00,000/- or One crores and forty four lakhs) in fines and to further spend an identical amount for purchasing actual licenses. This was in addition to the legal expenses and the embarrassment of facing public humiliation.
3.6 In this context, we request the government to recall the recent problems faced by the highly successful and popular 'FRIENDS' project. If the concerned agencies were adequately aware of issues relating to copyright and licensing, the unfortunate incidents of executives and officers of quasi-governmental organizations being arrested by the police and detained in custody, like petty thieves could have been avoided. We would like to point out that unless the government is careful, teachers in our schools too might be faced with a similar situation.
3.7 The government or the schools should not have to constantly worry about licensing issues and should be free to teach. Imposing proprietary software on the schools means pushing the school administrations and managements into the difficult and tricky area of license management. The schools should be free to choose software of their choice; but if the government wishes to impose its own choice on the schools, the government has an obligation to ensure that no present or future burden, economic, social or technological, is imposed on the school managements.
4. The Prescription Stifles Development of Software Skills
4.1 If our students are to really understand and learn programming and develop software skills, they should learn not only to use computers, but also understand why they function the way they do. This involves learning programing skills. To learn programing, students should have access to source code of the software they use. We trust that you have studied and understood the terms under which the corporation, whose software is currently prescribed for study, licenses its software. It should be emphasised that they do not provide access to source code, which is a a closely guarded secret. By insisting on programs from a particular company, the government is denying our students an opportunity to learn about programs and software development skills. We need not repeat that this policy would not help our community in the long run.
4.2 We do appreciate that the IT@SCHOOL project may not involve teaching programing skills to the students; but at a young age, the students are curious, and are apt to explore and examine the systems they are using. This is an excellent opportunity to introduce students to software programing. Providing access to source code to the students who display curiosity about understanding software programing would channelise their creativity into development of useful skills. On the contrary, denying access to source code might result in such students being frustrated, and turning to unproductive activities.
5. Proprietary Software Is More Expensive Over Long Term
5.1 It goes without saying that all software packages, including those prescribed in the syllabus are covered by copyright. The corporation which provides the prescribed packages charges license fees for each computer on which their software is used. Moreover, the Operating system and the application software packages (MS Word, as per the syllabus) has to be purchased separately, and separate licenses have to be obtained for each machine / computer. It should be recalled that the government is aiming to have computers in all the schools in Kerala by the year 2004 at the rate of between 6 and 15 computers per school, in all the more than 2600 schools in Kerala.
5.2 We have already pointed out that this would cost the state over 74 crore rupees in terms of license fees alone at the modest rate of 10 computers per school. The government has actually prescribed use of up to 15 computers per school. Thus, there would be more than 41,600 computers in schools alone by the year 2004, and either the schools, or the government, stands to lose, and the corporation actually stands to gain, not merely rupees 74 crores, but sums far in excess of Rs. 118,56,00,000/- (Rupees one hundred and eighteen crores, fifty six lakhs) on license fees alone.
5.3 Apart from initial license costs, the government / schools would have to incur recurring expenditure on software maintenance and upgrades. This happens because however well developed a software package is, it is always prone to defects known as bugs. Since source code for the software prescribed in the syllabus is not available, the schools will be dependent on the same vendor for upgrades and 'bug fixes' and also have to periodically pay them for such services. The vendor would therefore be in a position to extract more money from the government or the schools in the long run. However, when source code for software is made available, with universal permission to modify and redistribute, it is possible for anybody with the necessary skills to provide after sales services, thus resulting in competition and consequent cost savings.
5.4 On the other hand, creators of free software have explicitly permitted modification and redistribution of their programs, without any royalties. Therefore, the schools would not be tied down to after sales service from vendors who created the software alone. When software is available with support from several vendors, this would naturally keep the prices low. Yet another difficulty with frequent upgrades is that the government / schools would be compelled to replace hardware too, (like processors, hard disks, memory modules, etc.) thus further adding to total costs.
5.5 In these circumstances, the government's insistence on the schools purchasing proprietary, non-standard, and expensive software cannot be justified on any account, and makes no commercial sense.
6. Obsolescence
6.1 It is very surprising to notice that the documents relating to the IT@SCHOOL project mandates usage of Windows 98 operating system pre-installed on all computers purchased by the schools. Windows 98 is a very much outdated product. Several newer versions of that operating system have been issued and are currently in market. Very fact that you are insisting on outdated products shows that the government has acted in a very arbitrary and capricious manner in prescribing the syllabus and choosing the topics to be studied.
6.2 Software is subject to very rapid changes. Average life cycle of software packages is between six to eighteen months. However, syllabi in Kerala are reviewed only once in four to five years. This would result in our students having to study obsolete software packages for a long time in between syllabus reviews. In view of such rapidly changing product versions it is most inappropriate for the government to prescribe software by brands or versions in school syllabus. We hope that the government will desist from insisting on branded software on this grounds alone.
7. Manpower
7.1 It is seen from one of the documents issued in connection with the project that government is of the opinion that no trained manpower is available for software other than what is prescribed in the syllabus. If that be so, we fail to understand why several thousands of teachers were trained over a long time, spending several lakhs of rupees. They could have been equally well trained in free software packages.
7.2 We wish to assure you that ample trained manpower capable of handling free software and also training school teachers and trainers to teach in the IT@SCHOOL project is available in Kerala itself. Lists of businesses, companies or individuals willing to provide support for free software is available at web sites like http://forum.gnu.org.in/ bizdir and http://www.gnu.org/directory.
7.3 We would also like to point out that free software is neither 'freeware' nor 'alternative software' as sought to be made out in the 'IT@SCHOOL Project - an Approach Paper'. 'Freeware' is software available at no monetary cost. 'Free software' on the other hand, is about freedom, not cost. 'Alternatives' are required when we are compelled to use one particular thing or product. We are not aware of any compulsion on the government to use any particular software. This being so, we fail to understand such terminology used by the government.
7.4 We wish to clarify that by the term 'Free Software' used above, we are referring to 'freedom', as in 'swatantryam' - not 'soujanyam'. By freedom, we mean: (1) freedom to run the program, for any purpose; (2) freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to the user's needs; (3) The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbour; (4) The freedom to modify the program, and release improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits. It may be appreciated that access to the source code is a precondition for enjoying freedoms 2 and 4.
7.5 We trust that the government will not be misled by wrong terminology and misconceptions. We wish to point out that governments of several developed countries have successfully adopted free software for various purposes and have openly acknowledged advantages of using free software. We may also point in this context, the experience of the Kerala Bureau of Industrial Promotion, which, in association with the Free Software Foundation of India, is developing software in Malayalam. This is possible only because they are using free software - software created by others and made available to the general public with the 'swatantryam' to legally use, modify and redistribute the same for the greater common good.
7.6 In case the government has any doubts about free software, we and other persons sharing our views on this issue, or our representatives will be most happy to meet and show the government how to go about preparing the necessary framework and guidelines, including preparation of course material, syllabus, hardware and software specifications, etc.
7.7 We trust that the government would view the issue not merely as one of cost or preferring one software or company over other. The basic question is one of freedom of choice for each individual and an entire community. What is at stake is not merely commercial rights or expenses of a few rupees. It is the question of liberty and independence for the public.
We request you to consider all these issues and review the syllabus and other various notifications issued in pursuance of the IT@SCHOOL scheme, and hereby request the government to:-
A. discontinue references to brand names and proprietary software in the syllabus, guidelines, notifications and other requirements under the IT@SCHOOL project.
B. frame rules requiring the use of software which does not require payment of any kind of royalties and implements open, industry wide standards in the schools and educational institutions in the state.
C. frame rules requiring that source code for all software and operating systems, applications and programs used in the school curriculum be published or otherwise made available to the public, students, schools and government.
D. frame rules requiring that only such software which is permitted to be modified and maintained by third parties shall be used in schools and educational institutions.
Dated this the 16th day of November, 2002.
Copyright (C) 2002 Free Software User Group - Kochi.
Maruti Vilas Lodge, Canon Shed Road, Kochi - 682011, Kerala, India.
Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire article is permitted in any medium, provided this notice is preserved.
"Swatantryam"
;-)
Quote:
7.4 We wish to clarify that by the term 'Free Software' used above, we are referring to 'freedom', as in 'swatantryam' - not 'soujanyam'
You may want to Save Private Ryan, but you'll Swat Ant Ryam..
4.1 If our students are to really understand and learn programming and develop software skills, they should learn not only to use computers, but also understand why they function the way they do. This involves learning programing skills. To learn programing, students should have access to source code of the software they use. We trust that you have studied and understood the terms under which the corporation, whose software is currently prescribed for study, licenses its software. It should be emphasised that they do not provide access to source code, which is a a closely guarded secret. By insisting on programs from a particular company, the government is denying our students an opportunity to learn about programs and software development skills. We need not repeat that this policy would not help our community in the long run.
This is exactly why closed source software should banned from educational use. When studying literature you can see how the author strings the words together to create a novel. There is no better way to understand how something works than to examine how the various pieces come together to form the whole.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
OLPC Australia
"Do something man. Right now."
This letter was submitted by an analogue of a LUG; although it would be nice were it otherwise, a LUG has hardly the influence of a Peruvian Senator.
Still, it's nice to see that someone is fighting the good fight in India.
The memo is about the schools, and learning requires being able to take things apart and see how they work. This is done in biology, literature, history, anthropology, medicine, etc. Even Computer Science / ICT
So in addition to providing a solid IT / ICT infrastructure, OSS and Free Software play a central, pedagogical role that cannot be fulfilled by closed proprietary solutions.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
With the aim of creating an orderly debate, we will assume that what you call "open source software" is what the Bill defines as "free software", since there exists software for which the source code is distributed together with the program, but which does not fall within the definition established by the Bill; and that what you call "commercial software" is what the Bill defines as "proprietary" or "unfree", given that there exists free software which is sold in the market for a price like any other good or service.
I don't think I should read any more of this... my head hurts already.
With the aim of creating an orderly debate...yeah right...I can see the arguments/fights over this paragraph alone
WOW. With all of the news that passes through Slashdot (daily, weekly, monthly), it's refreshing to see people from other countries speak their mind and stand up for what they think is right. With the exception of a small percentage, few people in the US see/read/care (generally NOT /. readership) about what is going on outside of our country or can even find it on a map. While these ideals (standing up for what is right, having strong beliefs) are not limited to America, everyone can relate to the "little guy" (as opposed to big brother or corporate *insert country*) standing up for him/herself.
Simply refreshing.
Is there some kind of award for the most sets of parenthesis in a comment?
I love the way they talk about said company without mentioning them by name, the devil is so well known he needs no name.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
It doesn't matter if they specialize in Windows or Linux because Windows is practically free over there. In the Indian IT world, no copy protection laws are ever respected, and the Windows XP pirated edition runs on every computer.
If Microsoft began enforcing copyrights strictly for Indian schools, then you would see quite a switch to Linux over there -- and quite possibly a boost to the hiring of American teachers with Windows teaching skills, if the H1B training mills are shut down because of it.
Welley Corporation - SLM Scammers
Looks like the most technologically forward nation will be the last to embrace OSS. Then again, it's nice to see a reversal in roles. Usually, it's trends in the US that are absorbed by other nations after having proven themselves here. In this case, it looks like the US is waiting to see how OSS works around the world.
Then again, you could argue that the US was caught in it's own trap, since in it's eagerness, it has turned a blind eye to the obvious.
So far, we've seen two good decisions come out of India. This is the third and it is based on sound reasoning. It is also nice to se ethis coming from Kerala - I think just about the only state of India that boasts a 100% literacy rate. It shows the right people are thinking. However, taking things from idea to reality has always been a weakness of any state or national government in India unless they're really committed to the cause.
I guess it's now just a matter of "wait and see" as to how soon these policies will be implemented. We all know the sooner the better, but try explaining that to a politician while sifting through red tape. Wait. Don't flame me. I'm merely stating a fact. There is a lot of red tape in India.
However, you always need to start somewhere and it's great to see three decisions along the same lines within a relatively short period of time. Let's hope they're serious about it.
Find a job you like and you will never work a day in your life.
and create a good suite of office tools that are on par with microsoft office
Why would you want to kill off a market for software companies to code for and sell products? Is this what open source is all about, destroying markets? There's only so much service business around, you gotta have products too.
It's amazing, you zealots whine about how MS killed off Netscape's ability to make money, but by advocating a free superior browser, you essentially say that you don't want any company to make money selling a browser. Sounds like selective hypocrisy.
Yes we know. Yes we've heard it all before. Yes it's nice that some people are realising this. But we also know that no matter how many humble recommendations the actually knowledgeable people submit, Microsoft is still going to bribe and strong-arm their way into this market as well.
... yeah it's nice but it ultimately doesn't mean much. I haven't heard much about that Peruvian Free Software bill making much progress either. (then again, Peru hates American influence just about enough for that to have a hope of happening, I think)
Show me a nationwide IT deployment that doesn't run Microsoft and then I'll REALLY be impressed. As it stands though
Damn
OK - maybe only people from one state in India will understand it, but it still sounds better than 'free as in beer/speech'
It will be intriguing to see how Microsoft's strategy to penetrate markets in developing nations pans out. Gates seems to have the upper hand in India for the time being, but just donating product will only get you so far in terms of building a market.
Since Microsoft will not be able to rely on the gaming market to push units to, say, the Peruvian government, one suspects that the company will be touting MS Window's ease of use and wide range of hardware compatiblity in selling its products to developing countries.
Microsoft could also play up on the common preception that Free Software is prone to turn bloated and buggy as a result of developers being more interested in adding "cool features" than in developing a stable, effective product (e.g. the Mozilla/Phoenix schism). Microsoft's strategy in this area would be to emphasize the interests of a for-profit company in shipping a qualty product and backing it up with top-notch tech support, another area where Free Software efforts are lacking
Mircosoft will of course also need to market Windows at substantially lower prices than in the US (possibly selling stripped down export-only versions of its software?), not a difficult task given Microsoft's high profit margins. Of course strict trade controls would be lobbied for to prevent cheap versions of Microsoft products from trickling back into the US. It is easy to imagine the control-happy Gates pushing for such a crackdown...
If Microsoft fails to sell its products to developing nations, the world could find itself with a new kind of digital divide, with the developed countries using mainly Microsoft products on one side, and newly emerging economies using Free Software on the other. What will come of this will be anyone's guess. Interesting times...
As in the source viewable? Or just that fact that you don't want to pay for it is why you hate MS? MS makes a product, that's what business are entitled to do in this country. I don't see YOU working for your employer for free.
At what point does this clamoring for free software stop? At the OS level? Suite level? Where? It takes money to pay for coders to write stuff, man. Kinda hard to start a business who's model is to not charge for products.
Chapter I: The Importance Of Being In India
While there are no published numbers, back of the envelope calculations indicate Microsoft's Indian arm currently generates sales in the region of Rs 1,600 crore. That's a little over $330 million. This ties in neatly with the fact that last year, India purchased packaged software worth $409 million - of which 80% were Microsoft products. But, honestly, for a juggernaut sitting on $40 billion in accumulated cash and a projected turnover of $32 billion in fiscal 2003, $409 million is loose change. So what "destiny" is Mistry talking about?
The fast-talking British citizen of Indian origin has been in the country for barely 10 months now. He heads a team of 17 evangelists, keeps obscenely long hours, lives out of his suitcase and has an awfully tough mandate from Microsoft's headquarters in Redmond - do whatever it takes to keep Indian developers and programmers working on Microsoft platforms.
Unlike any other director heading operations in the country, Mistry has no revenue targets to meet. "The Indian systems integrator, as he moves up the value chain, will finally make a decision on what platform to settle on. We have to capture them before they make that decision. Which is why, my team is very important for Microsoft Corporation, not just for India alone."
Intrigued? Don't be. Estimates put the present size of India's developer population at anywhere between 450,000 and 600,000. That's about 10% of the world's developer population. By end-2002, India will probably have more developers than any country in the world. This is why it is important to gain control of this population.
"We are paranoid someone is going to come along and take away mindshare from developers. We're paranoid something out there is going to be more exciting to developers." Quite clearly, Mistry is talking of the threat Linux poses to Microsoft. Probe him. He'll hark back to January, when he took up his Indian assignment. Among the first things he did was to put two people from his team on Linux forums. They were asked to figure out: what is it that excites the Linux community? Is it plain Microsoft baiting? Is it Bill Gates bashing? Is it a desire to change the world? For Mistry, answers to those questions hold solutions on how to choke the Linux community in India. By doing that, the open source world loses access to one of the largest developer bases. Deprived of that base, the movement suffers and Microsoft gains a major victory. "This is primarily a battle for the hearts and minds," says Mistry.
Till sometime ago, Microsoft and Mistry didn't have to worry about losing the Indian developer. But with the tech downturn and corporates slashing IT spends, things changed. Public perception that using open source technologies reduce the cost of technology deployments convinced companies across the world to seriously consider cheaper alternatives. Consequently, the number of jobs available for developers working on these technologies went up. To get a sense of that, log on to Monster.com, the world's largest online job board. The number of people needed with expertise in open source technologies is roughly the same as that of those with expertise on Microsoft platforms.
Now add to this the fact that Indian contribution to the open source community has shot up over the last year. Chennaikavigal, a Chennai-based product company, is working on an Indian office suite designed to work on the Linux platform. In fact, language fonts for Linux are now available for practically every Indian language. There is Delhi-based Kandalya building applications that work on free and open source technologies. Then there's Anjuta, which is a development environment for C and C++ on Linux. There's also the Bangalore-based Peacock Solutions, which calls itself the first Indian company to commercialise supercomputing technology on a Linux platform. Peacock's projects include building Linux parallel supercomputers for high-speed rendering, molecular modelling, weather modelling and bioinformatics solutions. And, the list of converts to Linux keeps growing.
Flashback to October 1999. Businessworld was talking to a senior Microsoft functionary on the sidelines of a conference on e-commerce. "What do you think of Linux?" Businessworld had then queried. "What's that?" he shot back. Things have certainly changed since then.
It's the 'roaches-under-the-board theory' at work, says Javed Tapia, director at Red Hat (India), a Linux distributor. Cockroaches multiply because typically they're under a board and no one cares what happens below the board. One day when you lift the board and look, there are a few million of them waiting to get out. By the time you get around to swatting them, most escape. That's pretty much what happened with Linux, chuckles Tapia. "Microsoft ignored us for too long. Thank God for that."
Chapter II: It's The Money, Honey
Forget the developer argument for a moment and focus on the economics - a packaged software market currently worth $409 million, of which 80% is controlled by Microsoft. But the legal market is small potatoes. Estimates say for every licensed piece of software Microsoft sells in India, there are eight pirated copies doing the rounds. Which means, in an ideal Indian world, Microsoft would sell software worth a whopping $2.64 billion (that's 8 x $330 million) in India. Add another factoid here. In 2001, when IT spending was being slashed across the world, the packaged software market grew 37% in India. Growth rates are expected to continue at this rate for a few years to come. Those sort of numbers cannot be sneezed away.
Now take another look at the Indian market. Two-thirds of the packaged software sold in the country is picked up by the government. The rest is largely accounted for by the private corporate sector. Now imagine a world where the government makes a conscious decision to move towards Linux.
There are precedents. Over two dozen governments in Asia, Europe and Latin America, including China and Germany, are encouraging the use of open source software - the most popular of which is Linux. In Germany, the government argued that moving to Linux would help cut costs and improve security. In an interview to BBC, German interior minister Otto Schilly said: "We are raising computer security by avoiding a monoculture, and we are lowering dependence on a single supplier."
In Taiwan, the government has announced a National Open Source Plan earlier this year. It aims to establish a software development infrastructure based on free and open source to create a foundation for Taiwan's software industry. It includes the creation of a "Chinese Open Source Software Environment" international cooperation on free application software development, and work with community colleges and non-government organisations to train 9,600 teachers and 120,000 users. Also, the national education system will switch to Open Source.
That these initiatives are being observed seriously in India is evident from the number of government projects under way on Linux. Like we mentioned earlier, the judiciary, the Central Railways, Air-India, Central Excise, Delhi RTO, various e-governance projects across the country. The list is increasing. It's a battle Microsoft cannot afford to lose.
Cut to Corporate India. At a recent Hewlett-Packard seminar on solutions for the manufacturing industry, attended by 300 CIOs, almost 60% said they would be moving to Linux-based systems. Kamal Dutta, HP India's country business manager, isn't surprised. "Enterprise customers are evolving strategies for Linux," he says.
In India, manufacturing and telecom companies are looking at some form of Linux use, though banking firms are staying away at the moment. Explains Dutta: "Banks are conservative." He doesn't expect Linux to completely take over the rest of the market but he says that he can see a "more heterogeneous environment where say core applications like ERP, CRM could run on existing systems while others like VPN, mail, load balancing could be on Linux."
Hughes Software Systems (HSS) started working on Linux almost seven years back. But in the last 12 months, there has been a spurt in interest. Says HSS' head of engineering: "Telecom OEM (original equipment manufacturers) who make boxes for telecom networks want Linux solutions. It's also becoming popular in the area of embedded applications.''
To begin with, companies are deploying Linux to the extent of 15-20% of the total applications - mainly in mail servers, RAS, Web servers. And the reasons for going the Linux way is that "it decreases their dependence on the hardware vendor, the companies can negotiate with multiple vendors and hence get better deals, it lowers the total cost of ownership and offers flexibility,'' says Dutta.
That's not an argument that Microsoft is willing to accept. Argues Sanjay Mathur, head of marketing at Microsoft India: "With fewer dollars to spend on technology, some corporations have been considering Linux. The irony is that choosing Linux may be more expensive in the long run. Emerging data indicates that corporations spend more for additional software, labour and consultant costs when they choose Linux."
Precisely the reason why a ruthless battle on Indian soil appears inevitable.
Chapter III: How Ruthless Does It Get!
WHAT is clear is that Linux has made inroads into the Indian landscape. What isn't clear is: to what extent. Details are hard to come by. As Sandeep Menon, head of IBM's Linux initiative in the country says: "It is not owned or tracked by any one organisation. People simply download the software. Data from International Data Corporation, or IDC (a research firm that tracks IT trends) only shows how many CDs have been sold or how many downloads have been made." The problem with this data is that because Linux's terms of licence allow a user to make as many copies as he needs and distribute them freely, it is impossible to estimate how many copies actually exist.
The other more significant problem is that those in the know don't like to talk. Menon, for instance, knows of virtually every major Linux project underway in the country. But he doesn't like giving out details. "Strategic reasons," he explains.
It's much the same thing with Red Hat's Tapia. Now, Red Hat is the largest distributor of Linux in the world. "I can do with little publicity. In fact, I can do with no publicity." The reason, says Tapia, is that he doesn't know how Microsoft will strike back.
For instance, says a Linux distributor speaking off the record, his company had recently concluded a deal with a large private sector company to implement Linux across the organisation. This was done after the company rejected a Rs 9-crore Microsoft proposal to upgrade its systems. Even as the ink on the deal was drying, Microsoft staged a counter attack by offering to implement the infrastructure for just Rs 2 crore. "And we lost out on what could have been the best lighthouse projects for Linux in the country," rues Tapia.
Chapter IV: The Chinks in Linux's Armour
But, for all its strengths, Linux has its own crosses to bear. "It's too early to conclude that Linux will be everywhere," says Srikant Acharya, SCO's (formerly Caldera) country director for India. SCO is among the largest implementors of Linux- and UNIX-based systems worldwide. The feeling is echoed by
IBM's Menon. He reckons that though Linux will catch on, the chances that it will overthrow Microsoft are thin. "My guess is both will exist." There are various reasons for that.
The most fundamental problem with Linux is that it is an amorphous entity around which robust business models are yet to evolve. Companies that have built a business around it are still gasping for breath. Take Red Hat. In spite of a 71% marketshare, it reported losses in excess of $140 million. Worse, Red Hat's total revenue is down from fiscal 2001. Now consider the other Linux vendors - SCO, Connectiva, Turbolinux and SuSE. In a bid to achieve greater strength, these vendors came together to create UnitedLinux. Mathur of Microsoft points out that Red Hat and Mandrakesoft refused to join the alliance. "The lack of unity among the Linux vendors offers evidence of continued fracturing," he says.
The point in all of this is a simple one really. The largest Linux vendors are still trying to gain critical size in their home countries. Given this reality, the incentive they have to push their distribution unitedly in countries like India, where the market is still exploring the operating system, are remote. Over the last couple of months, Microsoft has used these facts to hammer home a key point with clients. That unlike others, Microsoft isn't likely to go down in a rush.
Lack of Support: Then there is the issue of government policy itself. In spite of the fact that Linux evangelists have been pushing for increased acceptance of the software in India, truth is, until now, no policy documents have been framed. Frederick Noronha, a freelance journalist and Open Source evangelist points out that Goa actually went ahead and gazetted a pro-Open Source/Free Software notification. "But how does one implement this? The departments keep flouting it. The basic flaw is with the tendering process, which can be subverted in 101 ways if the intentions are malafide. Since then, the Goa IT minister (Ramakant Khalap) has defected from the ruling party. The so-called government policy turned out to be a one-man initiative, which has all come back to a big zero."
Then there is the case of Karnataka. Here, the IT Department supports Open Source on paper. But even as the police force goes in for modernisation, it is being equipped with Windows XP machines. The only exception until now has been Kerala, where the IT policy makes it mandatory for all government departments to first consider free/open source software for all its needs. And only after open source solutions have been exhausted can the government go in for proprietary systems.
The lack of legislation percolates to other areas too. In education, for instance. Dr Nagarjuna G, a teacher at the Homi Bhabha Science Centre in Mumbai and an active free software evangelist is pained as he flips through the IT syllabi of various colleges in the country. The reason is "a lack of secular IT education loaded almost entirely against free and open source software." What he means is this. In most colleges, teachers are asked to show the students how to use Excel or Word. "Why?" asks Dr Nagarjuna. "Shouldn't students be shown how to use a spreadsheet or a word processing document? What they ultimately choose ought to be up to them. Why should the state make a choice on their behalf?" He's been lobbying to get the discrepancies removed. And he's notched up some successes. But there's a long way to go.
Misunderstandings: Tapia of Red Hat faces a rather unique problem. While the interest in what he provides is high, most clients are reluctant to pay for the services he offers. The problem stems from the fact that most people imagine Linux is free. They argue that since it can be downloaded from the Internet or purchased from any vendor at a nominal cost, the prices Red Hat quotes are too high.
But Red Hat's business model, like those of other vendors in the Linux space, is built around a simple assumption. While the basic software itself is free, users will pay for the support vendors provide. It's an argument that has not gone down too well with Indian business. Weaned on a steady diet of Microsoft support that comes with software purchases, the new business model is still making itself understood in most places. "I end up not signing many contracts as clients don't understand they have to pay for support. Where else will my bread and butter come from?" asks Tapia.
Epilogue
In the past, numerous contenders have tried and failed to dislodge Windows. But like we said earlier, Linux, has a key advantage. It isn't owned by anyone. To that extent, Microsoft does not know exactly whom to attack.
Take Asia for instance. Linux, outside of Japan, is being driven by the fact that the continent is less developed than the US or Europe. What this means is that there are fewer computers in the region. Consequently, there are fewer small- and medium-sized enterprises committed to Microsoft products. More importantly, these companies don't have dollars at their disposal of the kind American and European companies have. Which is why, their propensity to acquire Linux is higher.
Does that mean the future of Microsoft in this part of the world is at stake? Not quite. Sure, Linux has been growing rapidly. But it has, at least until now, been confined to servers. More importantly, this growth is coming in at the expense of older operating systems. By 2006, IDC estimates that 26% of the servers in operation will be running Linux while 56% will still run Windows. The remaining 12% will be on UNIX. As for the desktop market itself, shipment details are hazy. Compaq, Dell and, more recently, LG are shipping Linux machines into the Indian market. Until next year, when clear numbers emerge, it will be difficult to gauge how it is being accepted.
Then there are questions on whether businesses based on almost-free technology can ever be profitable - a challenge for Linux companies everywhere, but particularly for those in Asia. A recent IDC report says that although worldwide sales of servers of all types will rise 17% annually over the next four years, revenues will inch up only 1%, largely due to the low cost of Linux.
In Korea, growing competition among Linux distributors have forced prices of a basic Linux package to as low as $10. A Red Hat version that sells for $80 in the US, hawks for less than $3 in China. That's hardly any money worth writing home about. As for business models built around the support and services models, they're still nascent and have some way to go before they mature. It's a long haul - an awfully long haul.
Additional inputs by Shelley Singh
Welley Corporation - SLM Scammers
Problem statement: .... u get the picture. :)
People are used to windows. In India, widespread piracy has ensured that Windows is avaiable with almost every grey market PC and in every school/home/office.
Linux lurks in the background as a potential replacement, but most people are just not comfortable with the idea. Including SysAdmins! I know, cause i have worked in enuf companies to see that.
The actual trick to popularize Linux is a hack of sorts... complain regularly to the local antipiracy people about illegal usage of Windows in office! IT WORKS!
A very large company (i shall keep its name to myself, considering my brother works in one of its sister concerns)once had its offices raided by the local antipiracy guys here (called NASSCOM). The same evening, their sysadmin called up the admin guy in my company to ask about the feasiblity of using StarOffice iinstead of MSO.
As a tech writer, my admin guy decided that i might be the best person to give an unbiased review. It turned out that for their purposes, SO (and OOo)was good enough, so i recommended that they go ahead.
I have no idea if they actually did, but i hope they did.
Another important factor to note is that people may be a little wary of using Linux as their OS, but replacing MSO with OOo is a less stressful option for them!
It might be a good idea for people to start asking for OOo on machines from their vendors. even if it comes with XP or 2k etc.
It takes away quite a few dollars from MS, which if u have read the reports has only 2 money making divisions with MSO being one of them. A reduced cash flow there (in addition to helping customers get great value for money - a complete office suite for free!) would cause MS to light a fire under the antipiracy guys who would raid more companies looking for illegal copies of that and piss more companies into using OOo which would further reduce the dependence of customer and deplete MSO revenues which would light another fire underthe
its certainly possible in india at least... at least 1 (Zenith) of the 2 big local PC vendors here has no deals with MS and may be open to the idea of bundling OOo. additionally there are a lot of intel authorised dealers (essentially former grey market guys) who provide a lot of the home PCs in the country! now it remains to actually implement all this...
A crank is a little thing that makes revolutions
Ordinarily, donations from Bill and Linda Gates come from the Gates Foundation, and are made without press releases and public fanfare. This is how it should be. And don't get me going on how generous they are, with MS giving away such small percentages compared to other corporations...
In the last few weeks, we all saw the headlines about Gates giving India millions to support AIDS groups, and how he intends to invest more to help programmers in India as well. Why was this act a headline, when others are normally done quietly?
Because Gates is trying to buy MS favor with India using the sick and dead as a pole to tie his promotional flag to. It stinks, and no one but the most stubborn is buying it for a minute.
==-==
Remember, investing in MS is asking to have your own money used against you in the market place.
-- Reality is just an extended dream.
I couldn't read that letter without the little voice in my head sounding like Apu was reading it.
grr...
Thank you! Sincerely thank you from bottom of my heart. Since I have been posting to Slashdot it seems no one has paid nothing of attention to my jokes. It is warming to be moderated, thank you.
Yakov
Typical american, always ready to point out other culture's downpoints to prove that your own is superior.
No wonder most of the world hates you guys, you've got no tolerance, and when people dont show tolerance to you guys, you cry and stamp your feet about it.
how about if I point out the stupidity of your own country?
World Series of baseball where your country is the only one playing.
Dont even get me started on the rest, I could go on and on.
A free app is worthless if it doesn't do what I need.
that is precisely the point -- even if MS would give their software to the IT@SCHOOL project for free it would not be acceptable.
in the larger view, "do what I need" is not as simple as "performance" and "superiority". it is a healthy IT industry in 10 years, a government not controlled, in essence, by a large foreign software company.
The zealots can't seem to grasp this.
at least in some cases, the zealots are not so unfortunately short-sighted.
MORTAR COMBAT!
It's also interesting how recently slashdot editors are picking up on the fact that there is significant technical awareness even in countries they've never heard of.
Build stuff. Stuff that walks, stuff that rolls, whatever.
The first hit is always free.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
People worldwide are beginning to wake up, and this needs to be shouted from the (networked) hills...
Whoa. Ok! I will start shouting! More seriously: it is not a religion - nothing to shout from networked hills. Or if it is then it is not. Religions are rather scary because they don't often make decisions based on common sense. Open source just makes sense because of practical reasons for some(many) cases.
The giant condum-balloon was not to make fun of Mr. Bill G. It was to thank him for his millions of dollars of donations to AIDS research, prevention, and education.
India has 4 million persons infected with HIV, second only to South Africa.
AIDS will kill more people than cancer in the very, very near future.
MORTAR COMBAT!
"I'm an American businessman in the import- export business..."
OK, this is like the umpteenth time you've posted this one in one form or the other. You need a little variety in your trolling. Perhaps if you also worked in references to BSD, goatse.cx and CmdrTaco...
The awareness in India is brough by published magazines, that carry tools that are Open Source on CDs. A definite trend of rise of "Services" industry around Linux and other open source tools is visible. It won't be far fetched conclusion that when India (a pool of millions of Software Developers) wakes up to Open Source, the world will be free from marketing gimmicks. :-D
Hmmm... Ok.. Chivas on the rocks.
for at least 5000 years maybe longer.
I think it's a great letter and I agree with most all of the points made and they are made well...
/. and elsewhere touting the fact that Linux was chosen for this and other academic projects, but from reading this letter it seems now to be in doubt.
But, I don't see why it's so earthshaking. It's basically a letter written to government officials from a free software user's group - what do you expect 'em to say? Its analogous to a Linux User's group somewhere drafting a letter to send to their state officials.
So no, I don't think it ranks up there with the letter by the Peruvian representative. If it were written by a group of government officials to other government officials then it would be a big deal.
Actually reading this letter I was disappointed to find out that Gates' visit apparently had some impact on decisions that were being made by the IT@SCHOOL project in this particular Indian state. A few weeks back there were articles on
How much impact do you think this letter (however good their arguments are) will have on these government officials compared to Bill Gates spreading $millions all over India to buy off these officials?
Somebody stop that man!
Its like this. We indians avoid buying things on credit... and we always try to save and we are very very very cost consious. Not all but most. So as long as people get a free WIN XP from the local computer assembler thats good, if they dont they will not take it. We will chose linux, rather than spending money. As far as IT professionals go we are sick and tired of bribery. Newspapers in india are calling it a bribe. And yes we are watching. There is inherent distrust of M$. So things will go on. Moreover the cream of indian IT students have spent most if not all of their college life(IIT's and REC's here) under *nix based platforms. We grew up in microsoft cursing drunken parties ;-). So the sway will be minimal. Yes Gates has captured hearts but he hasnt captured my heart yet... and this I can say for many other IT professionals also. Life will go on as it is.
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Linux vanquishes Windows, everyone runs the Penguin. OK, so now every computer is $34 dollars cheaper (owing to no need for makers to pay a licensing fee). Where should I apply that $34? As a down payment on the $300 yearly fee to some Linux technical support provider? What the hell, I thought running this free OS was supposed to save me money?
OK, so no Windows. MS still will make products. Will the religious hatred stop now that MS gets no money from OS sales, or will it be like the Muslims (or the IRA), a new fight just to simply have an enemy? What will be the next company to hate? At what level will this religious battle stop? Or will the zealots continue to fight against Bill just because he sells a Barbie game?
I can't see why MS and others do not implement a software technology to prevent piracy.
The first one's always free.
MORTAR COMBAT!
This memo is from a User Group, not from a govt.
official. I don't see how this is in anyway at the
same level as the Peruvian Senator's memo. Not to
discount the fact that the memo is written very
well indeed.
I am an Indian but these kudos are a bit misplaced.
I would be really proud if some politician would put
his name to the memo.
Don't get your hopes up. There's still LOTS of corruption, especially with anything related to the bureacracy, regardless of the good intentions. I'm Indian, born there and raised here since I was 2. Our friends here and relatives there say that if want to help some cause, do it yourself or through a trusted NGO, but not through the government.
Things are much better now, having improved over the last 2 decades because of business reforms, but there's still a long way to go. So essentially, a company, or any multi-national, could probably still make lot of headway by buying off the right decision makers.
The primary advantage that OSS has is primarily cost and the fuzzy feel-good mission of it. But they are pragmatists, so if the world wants MSFT, then they will oblige, especially if MSFT can make concessions.
China has a much better shot of escaping the clutches of MSFT, because they benefit, ironically, from being authoritarian (or whatever they've morphed into today). The Chinese government mandate to pursue OSS is probably more effective than the advocacy or advice of some groups in India. Because in the end, Indian software developers are free to pursue their business interests, just like American ones, so many will engage MSFT because of that.
But that's just my opinion.
Let's say Windows was (to your satisfaction) stable, with source code available, faster than Linux and cost $90. Would you use it? Or would you still harbor some religious abhorrence to use it?
No permanent wedding here. Yes there are microsoft lovers and *nix lovers in indian IT. And I dont know for what reason media coverage is goven mostly to MS lovers.... but the ratio is balanced. Companies in CRM, ERM etc are wedded to M$ as their clients in US/Europe are. However go towards IC design, Networking, embedded software the wedding is with *nix... some linux and much solaris.
As far as the upcoming generation, the top rated colleges have LAN's built on linux. I passed out in '01... and we were fed on a linux and solaris diet. The professors, lecturers.. esp the senior folks are very strong advocates of linux coz in the 80's when ernet(out sorf of college internet) came up it was entirely on unix. 8Kbps of blazing speed and mail could be sent within 24 hours. It was a miracle ;-). So I would not worry too much about it. India has been late in linux no doubt.. but we will soon catch up.
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Do you really think that this is ultimately going to come down to a popularity contest between two figureheads?
Eventually it's going to come down to the same cost vs benefits tradeoff that people debate about endlessly around here. That's the real issue, not whether Gates or Stallman is more 1337.
This letter highlights a lot of the key issues going. I think it's interesting to note that the major tech boom of the last twenty or so years came out of the US, where university students had full access to the UNIX source code, where they learned what some of the best developers in the world could put together. Students today who just learn Visual Basic or some such crap aren't going to be the ones changing the tech world in the next twenty years. Countries that realize this and gear their educational programs accordingly will reap the benefits.
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
YOU are welcome to happily eat Gates' shit and call it ice cream. But as far as telling ME to "move on", GO FUCK YOURSELF. Bill Gates is a lying, stealing scumbag and needs to watched every second of the day. I hope India has the brains and balls to not knuckle under to his illegal and immoral monopoly. Pity the US doesn't. FUCK YOU AND ALL GATES MONOPOLY SUPPORTERS.
It's a troll.
I need an OS I can install easily and start running immediately without worrying about parts that don't work. I use my computer to do work, not fiddle with it. Linux does not do this for me.
I need a wide range of software for my work and entertainment. Linux does not do this for me.
I need masses of people writing apps to gain my attention to use, not people who write stuff "when they feel like it". Linux does not do this for me.
The computer industy is supposed to serve ME, not the other way around. Linux does not do this for me.
*scratches his head*
Perhaps you all aren't paying attention but the risk to open source is nothing compared to the damage that Bill is really doing. A LOT of software is already outsourced to India. He's wants to help India turn into one giant outsourcing corporation. The bonus for him is the use of his products. The bonus for us that we lose even more programming jobs here in the U.S. The market sucks, there's still tons of H1-B's around and now this...
I don't know about you but I'm a little concerned.
Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood. -- H. L. Mencken
The problem today is that India's programmers, as a resource, are commoditized. They no longer cost 10% of what you would expect to pay in North America, as an example.
While I believe that Indians are by far the most skilled coders available, the fact that the costs have risen to match other resources, as an example, means India has lost the opportunity it had ten years ago, which was to corner the software development market.
There are new areas with similar resource avaiable today, and the cost for coders in these countries is again 10% of North America. How will India's programmers perform in tomorrow's market when other sources are ready for pennies on the dollar....all of these conversations should have been held many years ago.
Being selfish can work great for an individual. The government is not supposed to care about what is "easy" or "entertaining". The government is entrusted with a mighty responsibility, and if you take that responsibility seriously, and look at the long-term effects of beginning to suckle at Microsoft's teat... you realise fairly quickly that for a little bit of "fiddling" and "work", in 10 years India can control its own destiny, instead of being enslaved by annual Microsoft subscription fees.
MORTAR COMBAT!
I don't know if you know the tagline, free as in Freedom, not free as in beer.
The reason people are throwing their voices behind Linux is because of the freedom it affords the users. You are very much in control of your machine. It is yours. The software, that's yours. The data you generate, that's yours too. The documentation, that's also yours. But it's not yours alone, it's everyone else's too.
This is a very powerful idea, and it works in this case because of the negligible cost of duplicating software.
People are not involved in this fight (if a fight it truly is, to many it's not) in order to simply hate something. It is to free themselves, to gain some measure of self-control and power in some small, but substantial way. If Microsoft were to completely vanish from the face of the Earth, I think that people would find other things to rail against, and they would very likely line up along the same path. What would be the next target? Whatever restricted freedoms the most.
And should Linux "win" it would be a win for the BSD's, a win for the Hurd, a win for OpenBeOS, a win for ReactOS, and a win for every other Free OS out there, as well as Free software in general. It's not about Linux, it's about freedom and any free OS would win, it just happens that Linux is in the spotlight moreso than the others.
So if you're running Linux just to save a couple of bucks, then I can't fault you, but what you're missing out is the sensation of freedom and power. I personally love the fact that I can contribute to Debian and various programs wherever I see a need. I could never do this with Windows or my old Mac (pre-OSX). I certaintly can't add a program to Windows the way I can incorporate a program that I like in to Debian, no way no how. That's power and that's freedom and it's an amazing thing to take part in. So rather than whine about your $34, why not think about your windows system and all the ways that you're restricted from it, and then maybe you'll see why people are so excited over this whole Free thing.
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
While on the subject of India and FLOSS, check out the site for Linux Bangalore/2002 the second conference in the series. Here's stuff on last year's event, Linux Bangalore/2001 .
-- start quote --
Linux Bangalore/2002 is a three day conference on understanding and using Linux technologies. This conference aims to cover a large number of areas that include Core Linux technologies, Open Source, Embedded Systems and other allied technologies.
-- end quote --
The motto of the conference is "Technology for a free world". And yes, HP and IBM are sponsoring this event together, no less.
All weakness is within you, As is all courage.
Here is a nice link to a news site with some status info on Linux adoption within India and current projects planned by India's Government.
United Press International
Here are a few examples of the Linux's increasing popularity in the country. The Indian government is planning a countrywide drive to promote the open source operating system, Linux, as the "platform of choice" instead of "proprietary," read Microsoft, solutions.
The Department of Information Technology has already devised a strategy to introduce Linux as a de facto standard in Ivy-league educational institutions like Indian Institute of Technology, Tata Institute of Fundamental Research and Bhabha Atomic Research Center, through their curriculum that encourages the use of such systems.
The Supreme Court -- India's apex judiciary -- has a few pilot projects underway. So have High Courts in Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh, and the government of West Bengal; the Delhi Road Transport Office has implemented a pilot to examine its viability; and C-DAC, the government's supercomputing arm, has moved lock, stock and barrel to Linux.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
It's true that he was very aware that he was getting free advertising by donating this money - but which would you rather have: MS spending those millions running TV ads and on billboards, or using the money on a good cause?
He may not have 100% selfless motives in this, but that doesn't change the fact that his money is doing good. Think of it as 'ethical advertising'!
Anyway, of all the dodgy business practises that MS gets up to, do you really think giving to charity rates a mention?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
This is the main failing of the OSS community. They all think that EVERYONE in the world is a coder.
WRONG.
John is an accountant. He determines how his company's money adds up. That's what he went to school for, that's why he was hired. It's not his job to tweak the FIFO function in OpenExcel. That's YOUR JOB. That's why we hired you, IT person.
Sally is a housewife. She uses a computer to do things for her family. She has no time to write a driver for the new GeForce card, Jimmy's braces are way more important than some piece of software.
Understand this. Computer users compose of greater than 99% non coders. OSS means nothing (and should not) to these people. Your freedom is non existent, as you are trapped in a prison of your own mind's making.
and in this case the image that is needed
is Ghandi sitting cross legged with a Keyboard
and Tux on the Monitor.
Or maybe better, Tux sitting Cross flipperd
wearing the loincloth.
all this to evoke the image of ghandi spinning
his own yarn.
The Quit India campaign against the Microsoft
presence in India has begun.
1. If MSFT giving away some software is a "marketing trick", how much more of a marketing trick is it when the Free Software advocates give away an entire OS and suite of applications? What are the FS advocates selling? None other than a public monopoly that perpetuates the production of inferior products, and binds developers to a social contract that prohibits them from choosing the way in which they monetize their work. If they have to have Free Software, let them choose BSD so the developers can have a real choice.
2. Why does the government have to standardize on one set of applications and an OS? At the school I went to, we had MS PCs, Sun clusters, Macintoshes, mainframes, and probably some research machines running obscure stuff that I've never even heard of. An educational system should expose students to what they will see in the real world. Just as these students would be poorer if the only courses were "Microsoft Windows 100, Microsoft Windows 201, .Net 202, etc..." They will also be deprived if the only courses are "Introduction to Unix, The features of Redhat, GNU development tools, etc...".
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
What modders are working this shift? The parent post makes a valid point, and it isn't obnoxious about it.
.sigs are for post^Hers.
Communism, has never, and never will ever be innovative. Human selfishness will see to that.
Capitalism always succeeds in providing innovation. Greed will see to that.
Communism always leeches off of Capitalism. Capitalism does not need Communism.
Capitalism is the answer.
Most 'early in' modders are randomly selected (green), and that one would have picked another negative rating tag if it existed, I'm sure. He just wanted to be contrary. Give it a bit and his vote will perhaps be countered and next time he/she will settle down and be a bit more generous :)
Either that, or polite valid posts are not the soup-a-da-day...oh well. Makes no never to me either way. I have a hard enough time justifying myself to me, much less others.
OSS means nothing (and should not) to these people.
You obviously underestimate people who do not fall into your generic stereotypes of "domesticated American idiot".
Jimmy's braces are way more important than some piece of software.
Exactly. This is why her OS software shouldn't have to cost $99, and her Office software shouldn't have to cost $299. $39 is pretty acceptable for an OS, and $59 is pretty acceptable for an Office suite. If there was an open market with competing products, that would have been $300 more dollars for Jimmy's braces.
MORTAR COMBAT!
That the USA coders are hell bent on giving a technological advantage to India, the very same country that will undercut US IT jobs if propped up in the manner the OSS wants?
For the benefit of those who might think that there might be missing digits in the numbers: in India, after the thousand position (3 digits) they are grouped in two's as shown. Here are the powers of 10 as a guide.
10
100
1,000
10,000
1,00,000 (one lakh)
10,00,000
1,00,00,000 (one crore)
And 50 Rupees (INR) is approx. USD 1.
Is that your view of anyone who does not know how to write a C++ function?
You are one sad person, if that's the case. There's more to life than programming lamguages, man. Attitudes like that are EXACTLY why no one listens to you. Go away, elitist-wannabe.
Oh, the cost of Windows comes around to $34, which is a typical license fee Dell pays to install it. By the way, how much would it cost me to purchase one year of Linux technical support?
The ones on an H1 permit that you might have seen toiling away in companies across the US do not have much time for OSS. However, there are a substantial number in US universities that are contributors to open source projects and, as will become more popular in the future, there will be a mass of programmers in India who will be working on interesting tools.
Jimmy's orthodontist uses a closed-source OS in the office for everything. This closed-source OS has a security hole. Not only that, but it's a known security hole that the company decided wasn't worth fixing. So even though the computer is regularly auto-updated, this hole remains unpatched because the corporation decided not to. The orthodontist's computer is broken in to and Sally's credit card information is stolen, and all the billing records for the orthodontist is stolen. This causes incredible headache for Sally over the next year or more.
We don't all have to be programmers to benefit from freedoms. We don't all have to be writers to benefit from freedom of speech, because we can all read what others have written and learn from it. We don't all have to be recluses to benefit from a right to privacy. Freedoms benefit you in more ways than you can realize, and it is a sign of enslavement when you're willing to sacrifice them for nothing.
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
....many Indians are saved from dying from AIDS, in turn, fosering more people who study IT, which creates a glut of workers, who will work for peanuts, which in turn causes your company to fire you and give that work to one of those Indians.
What it all boils down to is that no one wants a global monopolist and foriegn nationals forcing propeitary software dependence down thier throat...even when MS is trying give away windows. Meanwhile here in the US, the Bush Republicans are actively helping MS shove their PC dictatorship down americans throats....so much for liberty and justice for all. MS knows it really can't compete with linux, and it shows with Palladium. It feels like the IT business is going back in time.. not forward, when will people realize that the MS monopoly does not nothing for innovation and no good for IT business in general?
"You helped our nation celebrate its bicentennial in 17 -- 1976." --George W. Bush, to Queen Elizabeth, Wash
swatantryam
Something like this?
William Ernest Henley. 1849-1903
7. Invictus
Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.
In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.
I know that India is your original story, if you wrote this yourself, because I've been to the places you mention, and India is by far the best match. The dead bodies in the street in India, the spitting, the corruption (others have the last two, but not the dead bodies in the street) -- it's all Delhi, which is hell on earth. I love India and their rich and wonderful past, but Delhi now is unbelievably depressing, and the person who wrote your troll post has definitely been there.
However, well placed bribes and such can cause key individuals to overcome their sense of what is best.
What a lot of people forget is that Microsoft is a marketing company, not a software company. Network infrastructure is, and has been, largely OSS / Free Software.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
...or at least the submission:
"I don't know what RMS is going to do, Gates has already won the popularity contest."
Did you notice that the article says:
"We all know how RMS and Bill Gates toured India recently"
"Prounce"... I take it that's a portmanteau-word connoting "prance" and "pounce". Very cool, I believe I'll steal it... Thanks!
Windows is practically free over there
It's pretty well free for non-profit organisations too, at least in Europe: the price of a charity licence for W2K server in the UK is comparable to that of a boxed Redhat distro
And if MS reduced their profit margins from 85% to, say 10%, as many people have suggested they should in the last couple of weeks, MS Office would be cheaper than a boxed copy of Star Office and Windows XP would cost peanuts. At which point the price argument for Open Source would all but evaporate.
Virtually serving coffee
Is that your view of anyone who does not know how to write a C++ function?
Quite the contrary. The parent post to mine simply stated that people in general do not care about the supposed benefits of OSS.
There is a difference between not being a C++ programmer and being an apathetic consumer of goods.
Oh, the cost of Windows comes around to $34
I put together a system for my brother this year, Windows XP Home cost $99.
By the way, how much would it cost me to purchase one year of Linux technical support?
I have never said Linux was easy to use, or cheaper. You must be thinking of someone else.
You are one sad person, if that's the case. There's more to life than programming lamguages, man.
Pretty happy, actually. Brilliant, beautiful wife, new car), new house, good job, plenty of friends, family doesn't hate me. I have a haircut and I shave. Don't confuse me with a Linux zealot. I use IE and Windows 2000 Professional at work and at home. I also use FreeBSD over Solaris, PHP over ASP, JBoss over Weblogic, etc. I pick and choose between vendors when I can, but for a desktop OS, there is no other viable choice. In 10 years, maybe there will be, as long as we're not idiots and lock ourselves into something, that is the ENTIRE point of this discussion.
Go away, elitist-wannabe.
I'm not elitist, and I don't want to be. But the next time I buy a computer for a friend of familiy member I would rather not pay $99 for a $39 piece of software. That's $60 more bucks to spend on a bigger monitor, faster shipping, more games, etc.
There is a reason that Microsoft can charge the extra money over what it should cost. The movements in Peru and India are about restoring sanity, so there can be 3 or 4 desktop OS to choose from in the $39-$59 range, instead of 1 OS to "choose" from at $99.
They are not really about "choosing Linux", at least I hope not. I work with computers for a living, and I am not using a Linux desktop. They are about "getting a choice in 10 years".
MORTAR COMBAT!
Poor people do not have the luxury of being dumb.
Once other countries see that threating to use linux gives better prices it will become common. I find it hilarious that Microsoft has to pay some people to use their software. I really hope some western countries uses this extortion scheme too.
Considering that MS has an 80% profit margin i assume that many buisinesses will have a field day the next time licenses are discussed. Now they are certain about being screwed royally by the rim mastah.
HTTP/1.1 400
And so on. I'm no great fan of MS, but I do sometimes wonder if there is anything they could do that would please their detractors, short of shutting up shop and giving the proceeds to Richard Stallman.
Virtually serving coffee
I think the last people who will catch on will be the people of the U.S.A. I am a U.S. citizen and it just makes me crazy that people still think computers are expected to crash and "reboot" is how to fix your problems.
Yes, a Ween song.
www.ween.com
weenradio.com
irc.weenradio.com (#ween and #t-minus)
Pennsylvania says hi
Indian developers are joining the bandwagon. Look at the linux conference that is happening in Bangalore. There is great support to OSS from developers in IBM, Oracle, Infosys and many other organizations.
Hmmm... Ok.. Chivas on the rocks.
there are plenty of linux users in india & its growing, everybody asks for a dual boot of linux & windows, well our community is growing! besides , not only the cream in IIT's or REC's just abt every "geek" or the bright minds always appreciated *nix ! thats something to cheer abt.
Well, Indians have known to be logical and scientific. They contributed the number "0" (zero) to the world of mathematics (and i don't mean zock). The "jantarmantar" which looks like a child's playpark is actually a lifesize astronomical observatory. So why not software? India claims its population is its weakness.. I say , exploit it, it can be India's strength too. If Linux is attacked at such young an age, it won't be non user friendly anymore.... yah.. we'll have a few million plus geeks in a matter of a few years ;)
|/________
|\A|ALYS|
Definately not as important as a senator's memo if it was written by members a LUG. I do not in my wildest dreams want to undermine the authors, but would be good to know who they were.
.. don't mean to sound too negative, but there is a long way to go before a nationally important figure comes out and pens a memo as eloquent as the Peruvian Senator. On yeah.. in other news the Indian Prime Minister has switched to using a BMW as his primary mode of transport. :)
I do belive Linux will be one of the mainstream operating systems in India, but not until the govt cracks down hard on piracy. Not until security becomes a major issue (I'm still getting virii on an email address I used 2 years ago to email people who visit one of my websites). Not until a major vendor in India goes all out to support Linux and shows a significant cost differential on the purchase of a PC. Not until a major SI (Tata, HCL etc) comes out with a authorative study which shows a significant difference in TCO. Not until Indian programmers from the SI start contributing to the various OSS development efforts.
Oops
What is at stake here is the quality of the education and freedom from monopolies. In my university days (Norwegian Institute of Technology, Trondheim), we did use some proprietary software (namely SunOS and Ingres), but there was no mention of these in the curriculum. The courses were named "Compiler Technology", "Programming Languages", "Operating Systems", "Algorithms & Data structures", "Database Systems" etc.; not "Using M$ Visual C++", ".Net Web Services", "Optimizing M$ SQL Server" etc. Not once were we forced to study or use software of any given brand. Seeing how some other educational institutions are tied in to specific brands and vendors, and how this affects the quality of the education, startles me. They no longer teach IT in general; they teach "Using ". Kerala; you cannot afford to fall in this trap !!
"And you are dying so slowly, you believe to be living" - Bertrand Besigye
I agree, it doesn't rate a mention. Too bad it made headlines around the world. As far as how the money was spent, MS can afford both, so I fail to see your point.
"But Doctor, why can't I have the treatment I need today?" "I'm very sorry Sir, but until the press conference occurs next month, we aren't allowed to release or discuss the funds needed for your treatment...you'll just have to hang on for a little longer..."
You don't happen to actually have any sick friends in India, I suppose? Let's pray everyone gets the care they need, in any case.
Hell, my school has a lower budget than most 3rd world ones. Where do we cash the license stickers in!?
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
Saying this memo is significant and praising India is like pointing out a Michael Moore memo to President Bush and calling it similar to a Congressman having a clue...
With our trade deficit we NEED to sell goods to foreign countries. Use Linux (or BSD, my favorite) here to reduce TCO, but we should really push M$ overseas.
since it gave up looking towards India as a market. The real value of India to MS is its developers. India holds 10% of the worldwide software force. That's the reason why you can still go to the streets and pick up any software for $2. If MS clamps down on that, Linux gets the boost.
Even though not officially, opposition leader of the State Kerala also have made serious remarks about this subject recenly in various occassions. Ironically the opposition party is communist loyalist (even though totally different in their practical approach) it will show a different turn to this subject which need not be mentioned !!!
Actually, MS is rated #10 in the corporate world, when you compare the amounts given out annually, versus corporate worth. It may seem like he's giving out more when the amounts are listed alone, but when the value of the other corporations in the top ten are considered, MS/Gates is late to the party, with day old bread. Dollar for dollar...net worth for net worth...corporate earnings for corporate earnings, Gates is far behind Ellison, Bezos and McNealy...and me. Why is that? Why do you want to front row the man when he's Malcolm in the middle?
Your glowing admiration reflects a misplaced love for the guy. My lack of admiration reflects the statistics. If he gave (even only) in equal amounts to the others, I'd be the first to pin a medal on him. If he donated the same percentage of his worth as the others and/or as you or I, he'd get more publicity than he could ever buy. He doesn't, and that's a shame as well.
Your claim that I disdain his charity is twisting the conversation. I disdain his methods and motives...scorn hasn't been displayed yet. I never claimed his charitable sums, in any form, are a bad thing. Give us both credit and stay on topic, please.
From an article on this subject at Salon...
"Microsoft gives, but increasingly with an eye fixed on what it will get in return. Andrew Carnegie supported libraries, too, but unlike Microsoft, he didn't fill the shelves with Carnegie-compatible books designed to create a pool of future Carnegie customers, nor did he view philanthropy as a strategic tool in accumulating more wealth. Microsoft may have learned the value of giving, but not what it means to be truly generous. "
You're not saying that's the ONLY thing holding back Open Source are you? How about Winmodems? How about the most popular distros running the RPM package mess with all of the dependencies?
I think no easy install/uninstall for recent converts from Windows and lack of hardware support such as the Mobile Radeon 9000 are what is holding Open Source back. Not windows managers. By the way, I run Debian. Switching to Debian with apt-get made my transition to Linux neraly painless after all of those damned lib dependencies in Redhat/SUSE/Mandrake.
This guy is way out there
I see, if someone has more money than me, then I am not allowed to criticize them?
Infuriate left and right
With all due respects to those parties that feel the Gates' Foundation embodies the highest qualities of piety and philanthropic principle.
Bollocks.
B. Gates, et. al are merely taking a multi-billion dollar tax write-off. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bill knows that the wolves are howling at the gate (no pun intended) and this is his way of placating the Big Boys.
This post encoded with ROT26. If you can read it, you've violated the DMCA. Handcuffs please, sergeant.
I never said Linda was Bill's wife :)
...on a one horse open sleigh...yadatada batadatata Ho!
[this is so much fun...put more fish in the barrel while I reload, and then go clean this one for dinner. We'll need a lot more if they're anything like this one...all bones]
Someone needs to tell those folks they aren't using the right word. Should be "envision." Probably their gdict client isn't working.
Listen, Daffy, why do we get the feeling you'd protest anything negative concerning bob gates or ms?
:)
I'd recommend staying off the internet if anti-ms/gates talk rakes your coals. You haven't heard anything yet.
btw, pathetic zealot is redundant...learn to quit while you're ahead
Baimfl`aet! Incoming negative mod at 10 o'clock! Dive!!!Dive!!!Dive!!!
blah blah blah...
more euro-trash bullshit...
aren't you guys dead from your commie-socialism yet???
hmph...must be all the money the states sends you to prop up your 'new way' bullshit...
gonna have to cut you parasites loose...
It's 'loses', not 'looses'.
Thank you.
--thanks for the recent upmods! i'll be able to post again soon
I'm curious that someone mentioned the project promotes using Win98 in India schools.
Surely this OS is now de-supported. Will this not present a future problem resolving s/w issues?
We are aware of the leverage issues with MSOff, as soon as users receive their first free or low cost "hit", there will be the same old game played with using one-way document compatibility to force updates to Office2K etc. This will ultimately force OS updates to Win2K & WinXP.
As WinXP (quite rightly and legally) attempts to block pirate copies via WPA, then everyone is on a forced march into buying individual copies of WinXP or face IT abandonment. We know the course that DRM is leading to, if unchecked then only "approved" and DRM PC's will be allowed to access certain sites and services.
Most everyone knows this tactic, you've just got to admire the bottle of BiilG to use the same tactic over and over again.
Personnally I find it easier to just "Say No".
I use SuSE+SO.
The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation (which is what gave the money to the AIDS institute in India) is the largest charitable body in the US with an endowment of $24bn. I would claim that this foundation (which is basically setup with his - not Microsoft's money) is worthy of some respect.
I don't personally care whether this money is given so he can get his name remembered, because he's got so much money he doesn't know what to do with it, or because he's a genuine good guy. (In fact, as with most human motives, I guess the answer to 'why?' is 'all of the above'.)
As to charity direct from Microsoft - I would share you suspicion that the main reason for it is to benefit Microsoft (any benefit to the recipient is incidental).
In this case, I feel you're right to show some scepticism as to how altruistic this donation is - and agree with you that the amount of publicity he got for Microsoft as a result was disproportionate. But doesn't that mean we should be criticising the media rather than him?
That's a good question. But the media reports the news, they don't make it :)
I just can't see this happening, with Gates being painted as an innocent victim of the press (and the press saying the public gets what the public wants). He posed for photos, and attended public galas and discussed MS business. He didn't sneak in and try to leave a personal blank check...this goes back to my contention that these things are normally quiet affairs, and this one was far from quiet. India one week and Comdex the next. I'd love to feel different, and I'm inclined to let you sway me, but how else can this be characterized? Help me out.
How can anyone not link Bill Gates with MS? If he valued his phylanthropy and what it will mean to his reputation generations from now, he'd work harder to distance his charity from photo ops and software deals. I didn't link him...he manages to fuse the impression all on his own.
And yes, for the record, I applaud the Foundation. But again, I'm not the one taking advantage of what it may currently represent when there is an opportunity to line the corporate coffers. The impression is less than favorable.
"These people"?
I agree. The sophistication of these savages is impressive. Who would have thought that they can look beyond the dazzling glass beads and intoxicating liquor that Gates and Co. are offering to realize the long term business and economic implications fully getting in bed with Microsoft.
These new "Super Indians" are going to be a lot harder to herd onto a reservation than the ones we had to deal with in the past. Why, they may even be almost as smart at the White Man, and just as cunning!
Bring out the phrenologists! We must study the size and shapes of their skulls!
---anactofgod---
"Equal opportunity swindling - *that* is the true test of a sustainable democracy."
In India, mass IT awarness came at about the same time as Linux , so almost all new enterants are as much aware of linux as of MS and are making intelligent choices while choosing to learn.
Also, popularity of the OS will not depend on what Developers have learned, but on what the industry demands. Developers will just go wherver they find a better job.
So, I feel this attemtp by M$ will not help M$ as much as it will help the cause of development of a common indian
SachinGarg [India]
http://sachingarg.go.to
That's a good question. But the media reports the news, they don't make it :)
:)
... and so I try to extend him the same courtesy.
:)
I do honestly think the media should bear a large part of the blame - they're in love with the 'personalities' of the industry, and as a result do too much parroting of press releases, and not enough investigative journalism. (A bit of a tangent, but you can trace some blame for Enron/Worldcom to the fact that noone was asking the hard questions earlier)
He didn't sneak in and try to leave a personal blank check...this goes back to my contention that these things are normally quiet affairs, and this one was far from quiet. India one week and Comdex the next. I'd love to feel different, and I'm inclined to let you sway me, but how else can this be characterized?
OK, I'll try - i'll admit it's not easy
He had 2 reasons to visit: 1 was as head of Microsoft which was doing it's drug-pusher charity act of donating $$$s worth of MS software to schools. Helps India's IT industry, but helps MS more; fair business practise, but a long way from altruistic charity.
The 2nd reason was to donate to the AIDS foundation. This was done as himself.
Now obviously, whatever's good for Bill is good for MS, and I don't doubt MS benfited from the donation. However consider the other side of the coin; here we have the richest man in the world visiting one of the poorest countries in the world - should he confine himself 100% to business or should he take the chance to do some good as well?
As a businessman he's a ruthless bastard, but as a person he (IMHO) has as much compassion as anyone, and more ability to do something about it. He knows he's in a unique position (probably in world history) to do something which will really help a huge number of people - without having to give up a single one of his Lear jets.
So my rule of thumb is: anything he does personally (for his foundation) he's innocent (more than innocent, a genuinely good guy) until proven guilty. Anything he does for MS he's guilty (as hell) until proven innocent.
Incidentally, I heard him speak in Comdex, and he didn't mention once (or make a reference to) his charity or trip to India. I think he really does make an effort to separate his two activities
P.S. All this defending of Bill Gates has made me feel dirty - I need a shower
I'll have to strongly disagree. Charity, IMHO, should be anonymous. Anything other than that is either ego building or incedious manipulation.
(pardon spelling)
Frankly they are not the only ones that Microsoft is trying to bully into locking down to Microsoft's stuff. I suspect they (Microsoft) are now beginning to hate things such as "freedom", and "liberty", since it is directly contrary to their business model and future enterprise plans.
I bet the next plan of action now for the Microsoft Lawyers, is to directly attack the US constitution and statutes, in an attempt to nullify it and break it. Then, they can take over.
Microsoft "The Anti-Christ"!
Don't let it fool you. Wait for the real Anti-Christ. Then we'll know where and when the horns sound, the planet folds, and we all go to heaven... at least the ones who got saved anyway...
I don't understand this. Is piracy so prevalent in india?? No, it is not. No colleges use pirated software (atleast RECs and IITs). Companies don't use pirated software (unless, its a mom and pop shop). Privacy is prevalent among only home users (students etc.). Revenue from this group is not really important for MS.
God I wish I had some mod points so I could mod you up. This is the most insightful post I have seen on slashdot in a long long time.
An Indian.
Stand Stallman next to Gates and let them both present their case to an average sentient being. The sad truth is that 99% of the audience lacks the ability to listen to the case, they are too overwhelmed by the presentor. You have on one hand, a religious zealot who probably embarasses his own mother, and, on the other hand, a clean cut, articulate and successful businessman. The message isn't the point. Stallman does more to hurt the message than anyone could possibly imagine. MS must we laughing all the way to the bank as they snicker at the ridiculous circus act we have presenting the case for open source freedom.
Now, take Mr. Bill. He runs a company that has been convicted of being an illegal monopoly. He gives away tons of money to the drooling masses, who are completely oblivious to the fact that he stole it from them in the first place, and that he is now giving back a fraction of the theft in order to win their hearts. Stunning! Who cares how much money Mr. Gates returns to the society? He should return it all! He should then do some jail time! The money should go back to the thousands of investors and business people whose lives were crushed by the power of the illegal monopoly Mr.Gates directs. Wake up, people!!!
I work at Grand Rapids Community College, and I have to say that most of the people I've met here are from India have better grammar than any American I knew in high school.
Think about it, an Indian, after three years of English courses, speaks better English than an American who spends their entire life in an English-speaking environment, and who is required to take four years of English courses in secondary school.
I'm not a purist, but I find that a nation that spawned at least one language ("Ebonics," which is officially recognized. Yooperspeak is similar, but not recognized.) needs youth with better language skills, especially in an age with international cooperation (read, "open-source development") reaching a crescendo.
What's this Submit thingy do?
What I'd like to point out is that many of these motivated students will try to learn about whatever system they're given even if the information isn't readily (legally) available... they'll hack and decompile to learn stuff on their own. The unfortunate consequence is that a group of talented, motivated and intelligent people are subtly encouraged to commit criminal acts to build their skills and learn more simply because the systems they are using are closed source. It's no wonder that the public has latched onto the idea that a hacker is a bad person.
Providing these promissing, budding software engineers with open source systems to learn on makes it much easier for them to learn much more information without forcing them to commit criminal acts. I think it makes a lot more sense to encourage the curious students to learn as much as they can and to hack away to improve systems rather than scold them, discourage them and ultimately lead them towards a state of mind that glorifies theft and cracking.
Signatures are a waste of bandwi (buffering...)
Hence, it is essential that software to be used in schools are made available under a license which incorporates freedom of use.
I'll be filing this one away for my next M$ argument. I can't think of a way this could be put more clearly.
It is therefore a prerequisite of free and unhindered computerised communication between humans that computers understand languages 'spoken' by each other.
As an American, proud our legacy of freedom, this point and the conclusions the author draws in following discussion carries a chilling judgement of what we are becoming. If electronic communication is as important to free speech as the document suggests, then the DMCA puts us well ahead of the Victorian British Empire in having corrupted our history of liberty.
I envision the rest of the world wising up to a smarter method of getting the job done and standardizing on that. Wrapping themselves in the comfortable blanket of isolation and obsolescence are the US and, to a large degree, Great Britain. Sound familiar?
One of the reasons that I became a lawyer was to avoid ever having to hire one. -SPYvSPY
The only reason, I repeat, THE ONLY REASON that Gates set up his 'foundation', (in fact, THE ONLY REASON that he started donating ANYTHING AT ALL) was because not that long ago someone took a look at Gate's charitable contributions ...and realized that there ...WERE NONE!!!
...not because of the goodness of their hearts, but because they feared the label of 'stingiest man in the world'.
The resulting onslaught of negative press was so great that the Gates's immediately started 'giving'
It's always amazing to me how quickly people forget the actual facts, and start believing the spinmeister's revisionist history version.
- definite
- separate
There are others, which I can't seem to remember right now but "loose" and "definately" make my skin crawl. In less formal communication, of course, I expect rampant misspellings, haphazard capitalization, and generally poor grammar. These reflect poorly on the author in formal communication.One of the reasons that I became a lawyer was to avoid ever having to hire one. -SPYvSPY
Hey cool, I've got a new OSS slogan:
free as in 'swatantryam' - not 'soujanyam'
Beer seems to be 'saraba' (I can't find a hindi-english translator), so the Indians either have more useful words to describe freedom, or a different way of expressing the idea idiomatically.
I rather hope the latter, otherwise our idiom (speech not beer) is probably funny as hell.
In truth, a very large portion of that "charity" is written off in software licenses for MS-Windows, MS-Office, and other MS products. Since these are given to "charity," he can write off the entire market-worth of these donations, though they cost him nothing at all.
Gates has not given 46% of his net worth. He has given "value" equivelent to 46% of his net worth, though that "value" does not entirely subtract from his net worth.
His generous giving of software not only puts a nice spin on things, but also allows him to push his and Microsoft's hegemony further into places most likely to adopt non-MS products: schools and libraries and other non-profit (meaning "under-funded") ventures.
Granted, some of what he has donated is pure money, and has no goal above providing money to worthy causes. But, c'mon! You can't ignore his ulterior motives and shady PR-based accounting.
Get your damn head out of the sand.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Gotta love those "grass root advocacy" attempts.
Your Servant, B. Baggins
Did anyone else read the document and hear Apu's voice?
Nothing for 6-digit uids?
I work with a company with operations in both the US and India. My observation is that Indians seem to love M$, certainly as a company and also the software. If they love the company it is probably because it represents for them the peak of the capitalist experience. If they love the software then it is probably because knowing it well is a foot into the door of other companies who are M$ shops for the most part, where many would like to work. And also because there is a lot of development outsourcing to India, and that often means creating and maintaining apps that run on Windows.
It is tempting, but hazardous, to compare the Indian experience with that of other developing countries. India probably has a closer relationship with North American (read...US) companies than does for example Peru, mostly because of outsourcing agreements. So the real and imagined needs of the two nations might well be different. In general I would predict that the success of OSS might be more likely in a nation like Peru, going it alone, and less so in a nation like India which for better or worse is hitching its star to North American companies.
I am the only OSS advocate in my company, but I am also the main programmer and web sysadmin. I am a US citizen living in Silicon Valley, I have never been to India. The company's Indian VP of technology (who hired me but has since left the company) liked OSS and allowed me do as I liked with it, so I installed Linux/Apache/PHP on the public site and developed for that, just as many other US companies and operations have done, and for the usual reasons (cost, stability, license issues, etc etc). The team in India frankly thinks I am a dinosaur and a malcontent, wasting company time using OSS when I should be going with "the winning team" as they like to put it. At least they cannot accuse me of wasting company funds. This is strictly a philosophical issue, as the servers and applications I have installed and maintain have never failed, while many M$ servers and applications have died or been attacked by malware.
If my personal experience is any guide at all, OSS will fail in India because it is not seen as the gateway to quick success and assurances of wealth. The angle for education would be that schools need to turn out programmers and sysadmins who live/breath M$ products and services as this will get them more jobs with outsourcers and options to work with companies in the US. For all I know, they are absolutely correct.
I leave it as an exercise for others to comment on what might amount to corporate neo-Imperialism. Still, it is hard to be critical of what Indians are trying to do, or how they are going about it. They are in some ways simply playing the hand that was dealt them.
=^..^= all your rodent are belong to us
Hmmm, there are 2600 schools in the Kerala school district according to that memo. Coincidence? I think not! poof! (disappears in a puff of logic)
Stop Continental Drift! Reunite Gondwanaland!
FYI...And "Soujanyam" roughly means "sponsorship", which in this context does not need any further explanation..
7.4 We wish to clarify that by the term 'Free Software' used above, we are referring to 'freedom', as in 'swatantryam' - not 'soujanyam'.
Which one of these is 'beer'?
MjM
XKCD:Xeric Knowledge Comically Dispen
Are their government officials elected?
..Population 34 million ..First place in the world to elect a Communist Government through ballot box ( in 1957 ) .. 100% literacy rate ( India's only state to have it so ) .. Best health care system among indian states .. Politically hiper active .. Its a city state , that is , the difference between the cities and villages are very minimum
Yes they are, and to your information some information aboout the state 'Kerala'
click me not..... no, no, not any more!!!
Oh God, I know this guy wrote this exact same nonsense in another posting about India (Indian province embracing Linux). This tells me that he is an just an anti-Indian who has nothing to do right now. I betch you only those people who have enough time on their hands would put the same nonesense everytime a certain country is mentioned.
This state has already achieved 100% literacy and see this link here:
/ un comp/articleshow?artid=29481848
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html
Another example, perhaps more trite, is the ability to eat all the food you buy. Suppose you buy a package of cookies, but weren't allowed to eat them all. Or a loaf of bread where you couldn't eat every piece. Perhaps in addition you couldn't toast the bread. This sounds absurd, but that's because you expect these things when you buy your food. It's yours to do what you want with it.
That's how software should be too for a lot of us. The idea of placing the current restrictions on it becomes so absurd that it isn't outlawed so much as it is unheard of. Yes, it's idealistic, but that doesn't mean it's unthinkable, nor does it mean that it's not something worth working towards. One day, maybe the company that sells the cancer-diagnosis software wouldn't even think to consider selling it as a closed product any more than Nabisco wouldn't think to not let you dunk your Nilla Wafers in milk.
This might sound like it's backing up the idea of restricting closed source software, but it's not, and it's a subtle point that's very difficult to grasp and even more difficult for me to impart. Sure, bread companies could try and sell you food that you were only allowed to do limited things with, no one is restricting it or outlawing it. But it's absurd. By that same token, no one is really talking about outlawing closed software, but by the same idea it shouldn't really be considered by anyone.
So ultimately, it really is about broadening freedoms for everyone. It's not to say "You can't use this program". It's to say "Why isn't this program free too? Why shouldn't this program be free?" You, of course, are free to do whatever you want, as am I. I can't stop you, nor would I really care to try. That's what freedom is really all about and you can use it how you will. If it came down to it, of course I'd ask for the closed-source software cancer scan. Simply choosing to use non-free software doesn't negate the ability to choose Free software, nor does it truly compromise the ideal. A good example of this is the GNU tools, which were written and run primarily non-free systems until Linux came along. Choosing to use closed software doesn't mean that you've compromised your ideals, it simply means that the goal of eradicating the idea of closed software hasn't been reached yet. Maybe John's great-great-grandkids will see it, who knows? I say it's better to dream than to scoff and remain stagnant in the name of pragmatism.
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
Actually in India print media most journalists are rather clueless about techo-socio issues like free source software. The desk i.e. subeditors are just progressing from cut and paste phototypeset copy on to page blanks, to using PC's --pagemaker and quarkexpress. The older pre-90's desk people are still afraid of computers.
/commerce background and are usually intimidated by science and technology. Hence the editors too are afraid of publishing tech stories from these people for fear of inaccuracies, apart from their own biases. In most cases the news item is just a slight rehash of the self serving buzzword filled press release. (I wrote a few so I know). Besides the marketing departements dont want to piss off the MSCSE type institutes who regularly advertise for suckers "go to the USA as IT professional in 3 months with XXXX certificate".
Reporters, who move around and interact with the real world, are at least familiar with the buzzwords but simply do not have the time to go beyond keying in on keyboards of laptops and sending stories by email. Some use SMS (cellphone) to communicate. They have a rough idea of what IRC is, and think it is where celebrities answer live questions from their fans. A couple are using digital cameras (sony mavicas with floppy storage) for the chance newsy photograph. (Hardware is very very expensive in India : software is 'borrowed' and cheap).
Indian journalists are likely to have a humanities / literature
Politicians and bureaucrats (all over the world not just India ) simply want to spend less money so that more is left over, ^H^Hkickbacks^H^H from other deals. Hence the emphasis of free beer/ less costly software rather than free source aspect. When some important government server running closed software crashes or something like that, they'll come to their senses and start listening to the experts. Or when palladium type backdoor steals the entire defence plans.
Given this scenario it is difficult to explain differences between free software/open source software/freeware/proprietary software via the press. Specialist magazines do a very good job but their reach is limited. No Indian policymaker listens to univ. comp. sci. professors anyway.
In brief : Dont believe the feel-good articles about free software in India. Lot of work is needed.
Note to Indian geeks: packetstorm has now got a mirror in pakistan, (LOL, probably funded by the ISI or talibladen). None in India so far. Hitech powerhouse indeed.
Yes even 95% of indian Pc's are already running on windows. But how many of them have actually paid for it. Till date (during the last 3-4 yrs) i haven't seen a single individual( excluding corporates) using a genuine copy of windows, thanks to piracy. The only 100 bucks i spent on OS so far, were for a linux CD. We will welcome MS as long as its free, otherwise UNIX/ Linux is my college time buddy.
And making a change will never be difficult, as we dont get the software down to our blood, you give me a single $ reason to make a switch and i will show you that i CAN.
With due apology to Mr. Bill Gates as i am typing this stuff on a Machine using Windows Professiona
What you don't realize is that a lot of people have problems matching Bill Gates the leader of the monopolist and Bill Gates the filantropist. Both types can't surely live in the same guy.
Let me give you an example: in Colombia the drug barons are truly loved by the people of their local communities. Why? Because they provide much needed work and even investment and improvements to their local communities.
Is BG that bad? No, certainly not. But when you see how his MS-child behaves in the corporate world, how he and the people around him do not seem to care aboutleading a convicted company for abusing their monopoly and how technology after technology they just keep screwing their clients and competitors with unfair, even illegal tactics, it just do not match with his image of a generous filantropist.
The people that thankfully will benefit from his money surely will idolize him, but that does not mean that the means to provide for that help are from a pure source. If you can't see the dilemma you may need to become a Colombian farmer to understand my point.
All this has nothing to do with zealotry but with matching what the left hand does with the actions of the right hand.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Do they charge high prices (hint: they are ripping obscene profits during a recessive economic oeriod)?
What is the name of chargin nought to put a competitor out of business? Do you need examples or are you going to pretend you know nothing about this one?
How do you call to add features that lock out competition deviating from your previous file formats and avoiding to cooperate to maintain standards?
Do you consider that somebody that creates something like Outlook Express and IE knows how to program? Do you think they know about network security?
How many bugs do you need to see to consider that something does not work? How do you know how many bugs are in a MS product?
Do you consider secretive a company that would prefer that nothing is published about their bugs?
Finally: are you a MS paid troll?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.