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Sun vs. OpenBSD?
An anonymous reader writes "CNet has an article up about OpenBSD trying to get documentation for Sun's UltraSparc-III processor. Basically Sun is giving them a bit of run around....There is some documentation available for the processor, but not enough to get things to boot."
And why exactly should Sun open up the specs for competition that prices its products at $0 without at least getting a headstart with Solaris?
UltraSparc-III's are mega ereet. I bet Sun is being evil and wanting to actually SELL software. Man, the nerve of some people.
much like this article from the other day.
man
No manual entry for
http://bsd.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/11/26/19 13211
In Soviet Russia the documentation runs around YOU!
Why do users with IDs under 100,000 or over 700,000 usually have the most worthwhile comments?
How can it be you need an NDA to get the specs? Wouldn't the cat be out of the bag as soon as someone released source code based on the specs? The best doco for hardware after all is source code that implements the spec.
I thought they already asked?
With so many of them it's time we make a full section for them. Since after so much complaining they don't seem to be going away any time soon maybe the solution would be just to make a section so that editors could move duplicated articles there.
We all have a love/hate relationship with Microsoft (okay, mostly a 'hate' one for Slashdotters) but at least they don't control the architecture, OS, and CPU for the Windows platform.
Sun even go beyond Apple's level of control, since IBM/Motorola develop the CPUs there, so that documentation is somewhat easier to get.
Sun has the potential to be the biggest monopoly of all the big technology companies, yet their products are rapidly losing market share. Why? I think companies these days don't like buying into closed architectures. So I think open source supporters should stop calling for companies blood, and instead let the market decide who's best.
Remember, Microsoft were popular in the 80s exactly for their open architecture.
In 1991's "Challenges and Strategy" memo, Bill Gates said, Our applications have always succeeded based on their own merit rather than on some benefit of unfair knowledge of system software. We need to explain our hardware neutral approach and the benefits that has generated for end users. We need to have visible events on a regular basis where we solicit the input of anyone who wants to influence our future direction. If we can institutionalize a process that the world feels comfortable with, we will strengthen our position incredibly. This is going to require a lot more creativity than even the "Open Forums" we are discussing. UNIX has OSF and X/Open -- we also need clear ways for organizations of all types (hardware, ISV, IHV, corporation, universities) to feel like they have something invested in our approach and can affect our course.
Do you see Sun being open? No. So, again I say, let the market decide. It's no wonder that open source is becoming the next big thing in corporate land.
mogorific carpentry experiments
For more info see this previous /. article from the BSD section that didn't make it to the main page here:9 13211&mode=flat&tid=122
http://bsd.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/11/26/1
I agree completely with Sun on this one. They have to make a buck, and when a free OS comes along wanting to utilize its systems and take away from its revenue. I work with Sparc 10 systems everyday, and I have come to love the Solaris system, it is pretty flawless and is specifically designed for the Ultra Sparc architecture. Plus, many people the utilize the Sparc Systems with Solaris use specifically written programs for the Solaris systems and are designed in house, this OpenBSD system could be hell on those programmers and Sys Admin.
[n8.r0n] http://petesweb.spymac.net/
But Sun didn't put its open-source community liaison officer, Danese Cooper, in touch with de Raadt until after CNET News.com informed the company of his dissatisfaction. Cooper is "already well-known in the open-source software community," Sun representatives said. But the company acknowledged it needs to improve its work with open-source groups, saying the task would be addressed "within the next few weeks. Cooper has been responsive and is pressing the OpenBSD case within Sun, said de Raadt, but he's reserving judgment until he gets what he needs. "
It seems they are now working very actively to solve the problem.
> > Their decision for GNOME as replacement to CDE was
:)
> > wrong,
>
> Yeah, right. People can still use CDE or even OpenWin if
> they insist.
That is absolutely wrong my friend, not my intention. The problem is that their decision caused a lot of their customer becoming unhappy.
> > Their decision to change free StarOffice back to cash was
> > wrong,
>
> Yeah, because you certainly can't use OpenOffice.Org,
> which is the exact same thing and still quite gratis.
That is not the point either. You answered out of your ass my friend. OpenOffice is no doubt the same as StarOffice but SO was freely available and SUN decided to sell it for cash over night, which on the otherhand pissed a lot of their CUSTOMERS off again.
> > Their decision to ignore OpenBSD was wrong
>
> Maybe, maybe not... But who uses OpenBSD, anyway?
> Something like twenty people around the world?
Well that is 50 more than Solaris
> You're that antisemitic KDE troll, aren't you?
Oh what a serious comment.
GNOME as replacement to CDE
But, but... isn't this a triumph to the community? A closed, proprietary GUI is replaced by an open one?
change free StarOffice back to cash
Now let's see. StarOffice was a Sun initiative. They gave away a huge shitload of PROFESSIONAL code, design and man hours of work to the community. And you have the audacity to whine like a little bitch when they take back control of what was theirs in the first place?! And all that without messing up the OpenOffice which they could very well have done. Don't you see? They gave a gift to the community and community contributed back some AMATEUR code. I'd call that a fair trade, but no... open source bitches like you must have it all or nothing.
ignore OpenBSD
No it wasn't. Sun is in business. They don't benefit from giving away their platform to competition that gives things away for free.
Over the last few weeks this argument has been raging. I've lost count of the number of IRC conversations I've had on ircnet #openbsd, and here's my take on the options presented to the OBSD developers.
1:If the OpenBSD crowd want the docs, sign the NDA. Linux developers did this. It's not that big a deal.
2: Look at the Linux source for hints. This surely isn't too difficult.
Why are Sun not willing to make the relevant docs fully-disclosed to anyone who wants them, sans NDA? In part, the answer is simple: The USIII / III* proc is still pretty new. Solaris doesn't yet fully implement all the chipset features, but will do in future releases. Is it a good idea for Sun to open the proc docs to any Tom, Dick or Harry, including other chip manufacturers, at this stage? Probably not.
There's been a lot of negative talk propagated by the OBSD community regarding this issue. Classic "blame the faceless multinational" diatribe that most of us grew out of in our teenage years.
Access to the information the OBSD developers have requested is a privilege, not a right. They want to build a kernel around the USIII, which is great, but the rules have been set by Sun, and are quite clear. Deal.
(Yes, I do work for Sun btw)
Super Awesome Broadband
The long term implications of an Ultra secure operating system based on Sparc hardware is a very interesting one. A whole new niche market could be opening up here. More interestingly, this will be I believe one of the steps needed towards the Fortune 500 moving to OpenBSD. It's just a matter of time, before their emphasis on security is doubled, or tripled from what it presently is as industry continues to move online and companies increasingly continue to protect their assets especially due to tight profit margins. I can see paranoia becoming the default at long last and a thirst for highly secure systems.
I've already seen a couple of financial institutions use OpenBSD. Would be interesting to see figures for real world present usage by industry.
Rock on OpenBSD.
That is absolutely wrong my friend, not my intention. The problem is that their decision caused a lot of their customer becoming unhappy.
Customers getting upset over a change in the default settings? I didn't know that fourteen and fifteen year old girls were a major customer base for Sun.
That is not the point either. You answered out of your ass my friend. OpenOffice is no doubt the same as StarOffice but SO was freely available and SUN decided to sell it for cash over night, which on the otherhand pissed a lot of their CUSTOMERS off again.
More of the same from those teenaged girls, apparently. Dear god! They decided to use the established name brand when trying to pull in some cash rather than create a new one or append a 'Plus' to the end of its name.
Well that is 50 more than Solaris :)
Point granted.
Oh what a serious comment.
Maybe you're not the rabidly antisemitic KDE troll, then. But let me tell you - he's a royal pain in the ass.
How come other OSs (not just Solaris) seem to have versions for UltraSparc. I know for a fact that Mandrake has a version that works fine on UltraSparc processors. I'm pretty sure BeOS can, and that many other linux/unixes can. I used to know a guy who had DOS running on a sun machine. If everyone else doesn't seem to have a problem why does BSD?
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
Sun is one of the coolest computer companies out there... too bad they're being dicks here.
Its just more of Theo whining. If he wants the info, he should sign the NDA and have a nice cup of shut the fuck up.
Not to mention that the SUN vs. MICROSOFT and JAVA issue that is going on right now places SUN into a real dark light. I think SUN is trying with all foul possible ways to get cash.
Or is it not the actual processor - but support hardware/boot rom issues that they are having a hard time getting information about?
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
I'd have to say that Sun are doing pretty well here in the UK. They've just started a scheme where educational and non-profit research establishments can get a full site license for StarOffice 6.0 for £23 - that's in total, not per computer. As a technician for an educational establishment, this makes me rather happy.
NDAs are a fact of corporate life - is asking someone to sign one before you give away details on the technology it's taken you years and millions to develop *really* that evil?
-Blacklaw
You also might be interested in this OpenBSD Journal article about the same subject. Usually the discussions about the articles are very insightful on deadly.org
Theo de Raadt and Steve Jobs could rule the world if they got together. No really.
Sun has now promised to give OpenBSD the same information it provided to higher-profile, open-source projects such as Linux. "Sun has committed to working with OpenBSD to...ensure they are extended the same information as other open-source communities," the company said in a statement. (boldface added)
So really, Sun wasn't hindering the Open Source movement. They already gave the information to the "Linux project" (presumably that means Linus or one of the other kernel hackers) Really it's just that OpenBSD didn't have the documentaton. Big fucking deal. Yes, it sucks that they were overlooked, but really, you can't claim Sun is trying to stifle the Open Source movement by giving stuff to Linux and not OpenBSD.
I understand that this guy's hardball tactics have worked in the past, and seemed to work here, but really, that's not the right way to go about things.
Most activists screaming for every corporation to release all code and programming guides don't understand history. In the beginning, personal computers were mainly for hobbyists. They all came with programming documentation, and some even came with full schematics. Then they became commercial, but still the companies were fine about providing technical information to thos who wanted it. I recall one of my earlier video cards came with programming docs, as did an early Adaptec SCSI card. Then competition began to get more cut-throat. The next big feature in your sound card was what could make or break your company. Damned if you're going to give it away to some pimply-faced kid who may or may not be working for the competition.
The big corporations have been in this mindset for almost ten years now. It's going to take them a while to get out of it. The current economics models these companies have crash and burn when confronted with Open Source. This does not imply that Open Source is bad, rather that it's unexpected. It's going to take some time for public sentiment to overcome the marketing and accounting drones, who suddenly see nothing but a bunch of red numbers in their "total" columns. Most companies have already made gestures of goodwill by opening up a lot of programs. Think how much you had to pay for an Office Suite before OpenOffice/StarOffice. Any idea how much Transarc AFS cost before IBM bought them and released OpenAFS? I could go on and on, but I need to go to work.
The point is, as I've said before, and will continue to say, you can't say "You must do foo" to a corporation, because they'll laugh at you. Most people don't like being ordered around, let alone corporations. The right thing to do (which was eventually done here) is get press coverage and let the people know that ACME Corp has not responded to your (polite, not bitchy) requests for documentation. Chances are they probably lost the request anyway. (Do you know how much bureaucracy exists in large corporations? It's amazing they get anything done to begin with.) The point is, leaders of Open Source projects may have done wonderful things and contributed tons of ideas and programs to the community, and benefited the world as a whole, but still proprietary source code is not a God-given right. Maybe it should be, and maybe in the future it will be, but not right now. Once that is realized, relations with corporations will get much, much easier.
There is no sig, there is only Zuul.
Ah does anyone remember that you can get the information straight form the linux code sun is adding to get Linux to run on sparc?
People please check your facts before posting..
Don't Tread on OpenSource
Sun has a new processor and Theo wants to have support for it in OpenBSD. Theo demands to have access to the specs. Sun says he has to sign an NDA like the nice Linux guys already did. Theo blows a fuse, dislocates his humongous ego. Not having been treated like the king and the lord saviour of our world that he is, Theo runs off to the media to whine about how his excellency was not granted a royal treatment.
What a tard.
Is this a new way of getting karma on /.?
Find someone who says something that can be disagreed, and then broadcast similarly untrue crap in order to get modded up? Hahaha.
Theo said he would prefer to run openbsd.org on Ultrasparc architecture, since it provides certain levels of hardware security, from following the thread on the BSD forums.
He's not exactly the easiest person to get along with, but to be honest, this is on par for Sun's dealings with the Open Source commnuity. Sun at times deals with the community like Digital did back in the day. And like Digital, I can honestly see Sun fading into the sunset, from an operating system perspective.
AIX / HP provide the enterprise level OS's, with several features that are not found in the core of Solaris. AIX with 5.2 has attempted to bridge the gap with Linux, in providing a common environment shared with Open Source applications, including having RPM's integrated with their own package management (as a side note, AIX's LPP package management is more sound then RPM's, IMHO).
Linux has been edging into the low-to-mid end market, even stealing Sun's thunder with Oracle buy-in. Sun is being squeezed in the middle, and must decide whether they want to focus on the high-end enterprise, or the middle tier web/app/database servers.
AIX has it's association with Websphere and DB2. Sun has to decide whether it's operating system is worth the cost, or whether they are a hardware company. Unfortunately as long as companies feel they must only run specific OS'es on their Hardware (Apple), they will continue to relegate themselves to a niche market that is ultimately self-limiting.
IBM still has the monopoly on Z-series Mainframes (Amdahl pulled out of that market). Their philosophy has always been expensive hardware, cheap to free software, and hefty support and services contracts. They make their continued money through licenses and services.
It has traditionally been a selling point for Sun that there technologies are based on open specifications, reducing the risk of a vendor lock-in.
blah blah blah ... what original thought in the parent comment merits "Insightful"? More like -1, "Same ol' shit re-hashed" ...
http://www.sparc.org/faq.html See what makes Sparc open !! Question is - if its just lazyness from SUN to provide adequate manuals or if they only pretend to be open to fool the ppl. Fact is that such behaviour doesn't fit the Open Standards Attitude from SUN ...
from laughing. Best post ever!
I have a similar problem with Adaptec. I'm trying to get register-level specs for their AIC-7xxx series of scsi chips.
On their Linux page they claim to support open source:
We have launched a dedicated Web site to provide a repository of
information for our open source solutions, including:
* Our latest Open Source drivers
* Technical documentation
* White papers
* FAQs
But in fact there is no technical documentation available beyond lightweight lists lists of features and general hardware type. Directly contacting Adaptec, I get nowhere without a product serial number, which of course I don't have because the chips are embedded in an OEM motherboard.
So maybe I'm just not talking to the right person, but it does look like the company is saying one thing and doing another.
To be fair, the driver support for Linux is good. Drivers are developed by an Adaptec-sponsored group and provided in source form. These drivers are in the mainline 2.4 and 2.5 source trees. This is a far better performance than, for example, NVidia, whose drivers are well-known for breaking every few kernel releases because of their binary-only nature. Still, it's not enough. It seems to me Adaptec is just shooting themselves in the foot by keeping the low level interface specs closed. If they continue to do that, they will certainly be knocked out of the market by other hardware that's better understood by kernel hackers, for which both low and high level optimization can be done by lots of developers. That's exactly what I'm trying to do with their chips, and to be frank, I'm doing it only because I happen to have one available to play with at the moment. But I'll move on without hesitation as soon as something shows up that gives me more scope for interesting optimizations. I'm just not one of those people who enjoys reverse-engineering, though I have immense respect for those who do.
The way things are, the Adaptec guys who develop the Linux drivers can do plenty of low level optimization based on things that only they know about the hardware, but who will listen to them if they want changes in the core kernel for better support? Plus, who wants to invest in hardware that is certain to become unsupportable as soon as the company EOLs the product? With Linux basically taking over the server market, I see that policy as the most efficient way to become part of the sedimentary fossil record as soon as possible.
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
OpenBSD is one of the more marginalized of the BSDs already. Even though I admire the technical abilities of some of the authors, there seem to be fewer and fewer users over time. You can argue in circles forever about WHY that is, but that does seem to be the "way it is."
And now people are bitching because an increasingly marginalized Sun won't enthusiastically support an increasingly marginalized OS like OpenBSD? What's the big deal? Use a cheaper UltraSparc or UltraSparcII machine...or Intel or (soon) Opteron/Hammer. Vote with your pocketbook. If Sun deems the OpenBSD people economically important to their business model, they'll cave. If not....
Did OpenBSD ever get around to supporting machines with multiple cpus yet?
Cheers,
Just another anonymous coward
Why are people at Slashdot so down on Sun at the moment? They stuck with Unix when all the other vendors were going for NT, they make great hardware and have a great OS and certainly aren't losing market share to IBM or HP for God's sake. They're here to stay!
What's wrong with replacing CDE with Gnome?
If you want StarOffice for free, use OpenOffice? Companies weren't interested in StarOffice when it was free, now we have the best of both worlds - a free open source version and a professionally supportable product with a licence.
From the posts, it sounds like they didn't ignore OpenBSDm, they asked for an NDA to be signed. What's wrong with that?
Good, you write half a day later to this thread where we have discussed all these things already.
T dR: Give me the information on the new UltraSparc III, and do it now!!
Sun: piss off, jerk.
T dR: BASTARDS! Give me the fucking info like you did for those Linux assholes!
Sun: go to hell!
T dR: I'm gonna go bitch to cNet since my programmer's can't parse Linux kernel code...
The guy's not known for his tact or congeniality. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar...
I thought it was bad form on slashdot to put the term "vs." in the subject line and not have Micro$oft on either side of the equation.
The open source community needs to show a united front against Micro$soft in order to provide an alternative choice. With this crap, Micro$oft just points to this incident and says "see... Finger pointing and dissention. and by the way... We have taken this into account into our 500th commissioned er... unbiased TCO study which now shows that windows costs $658.67 less than open source"
From excellent karma to terible karma with a single +5 funny post...
and all they could come up with was CDE? damn!
More like the Russian Jerry Lewis.
"If he thinks he can hide and run from the United States and our allies, he's sorely mistaken." Bush on bin Laden
and the fact that he is a complete asshole.
Yeah and the same GUI designers are working on GNOME now :)
First off all IBM never shipped "all their machines with OS/2". In fact it was quite hard to get a machine from IBM with OS/2 preinstalled. They faced the same problems as most PC companies "ship everything with a Microsoft OS or pay way more for every OS you do buy".
As for the quality of OS/2. OS/2 Multitasked far better on 286 hardware than Windows did on 386 until the release of NT. Not only was OS/2 an excellent OS in terms of multitasking and protection but with full Windows and Dos compatability it offered a real possibility for migration. The issue with OS/2 was never the capability or the quality of the OS it was:
a) A real fear that OS/2 PC servers would cut into their very profitable AS/400 servers; and thus internal resistance to really pushing OS/2.
b) Back and forth issues about whether OS/2 would or wouldn't require Microchannel, i.e. should OS/2 be helping to sell hardware or "be open".
c) The problems of windows pricing which would have made IBM either take the plunge or not (i.e. they couldn't waffle).
d) Because OS/2's support for Windows was so strong a lack of applications support.
etc...
I've never heard anyone argue that OS/2 as a product was not far and away the best OS for PCs during the 1.3-3.0 years.
Can I have some of that crack you're smoking, please? Unless I am grossly misinformed, there was never a build of BeOS for any architectures other than PowerPC or x86.
News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters? Like hell.
All those stupid "Theo is arshole" flame. Just for the record Theo isn't porting OpenBSD to US III. Jason Wright, Artur Grabowski and Marcus Watts are trying to run OpenBSD on US III.
I guess they have asked for documentation as well.
This story was posted in the BSD section, I wrote something there. Didn't start enough of a flame war, so I'll repost it. Before flaming, make sure you read the email thread.
OK, I'm karma capped, lets some good ol' flaming start...
Theo de Raadt: (calls up Sun) Hello, I demand some documentation.
Sun Guy: Who the f*** are you?
TdR: I'm Theo de Raadt.
SG: Which Theo de Raadt?
TdR: The one that is incredibly smart and productive and gets real pissy when I don't get my way; the one that forked OpenBSD because the NetBSD folks didn't like how pissy I got and drove users away.
SG: Oh that one. What documentation do you demand because you somehow infer a right to having?
TdR: On the UltraSparc III processor.
SG: Oh, the one that you spent no R & D money on, that you spent no manufacturing money on, but you feel you have an absolute right to have it and if you don't get it you get pissy?
TdR: Yeah, thats the one.
SG: OK, here is our link.
TdR: This isn't enough. I want more.
SG: What other documentation are you demanding?
TdR: I don't know. It is your job to figure out what documentation I don't have and to get it to me when I demand it.
SG: If you don't even know what to ask for, how are you demanding more?
TdR: Those other guys get more.
SG: Which guys?
TdR: The Linux guys.
SG: You mean the ones that we kind of work with because we have an Intel distro and we should really appease the guys that kind of put it together? The OS that we might try to sell some software on?
TdR: Yeah, I want what they have. I deserve it.
SG: Why?
TdR: Because I want it to make a server.
SG: Using what OS?
TdR: A free one, that will put no money in your pocket for OS licenses, no money for support, that will most likely not sell any Sun software because it usually runs as a fairly stripped down firewall box, and won't even sell any of your real expensive hardware where you make the real money from since we don't support SMP. Since you lost a lot of money when the dot-com bubble burst, and your stock is now close to historic lows and have had a couple rounds of layoffs, you must be real enthused about doing some work which probably won't get your company any money at all?
SG: Ahh, so you demand we get some internal engineers for you who luckily will be really eager to stop their real work fending off fierce competition from IBM Windows HP and Linux, gather all our UltraSparc-III stuff for you, run it through our lawyers who luckily enough will drop all work involving our lawsuits about Microsoft and Java (and possible shareholder and wrongful termination lawsuits) sanitize it for you because from your reputation for getting pissy over things (witness ipf) you won't take kindly to an NDA and rush it to you on your schedule not ours.
TdR: If you don't, I'll get pissy. Yes, and make sure you get that NDA stuff out. We're opensource, and we don't like NDAs, and since we're always right your NDAs should go away because we say so.
I know why Theo would want this, but I can't see the Sun guys dropping everything and making this their number one priority. Though childish, if I was a Sun person, I'd release this stuff first to FreeBSD and NetBSD, knowing it would eventually trickle down to OpenBSD, just to piss off Theo.
First of all, as much as I admire his work it must be said: Theo is an abrasive asshole. He is idealistic to the point of being utterly inflexible and insulting. He'd get farther if he behaved like a grown-up.
Secondly, to all the people who are accusing Sun of having no strategy, no plan, no policy, no hope, etc.. Just because YOU haven't bothered to find it out doesn't mean that it doesn't exist! There are a LOT of posts here that berate Sun for doing something that they clearly are not, or failing to explain something that they make perfectly plain. Go do your damned research!
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
So what if BSD can't handle all the features of new Sun machines? Everyone who has the kind of technical background that they are buying UltraSparc III hardware will realize the limitations. It's not like grandma can accidentally get a multi-processor Sun computer at CompUSA or Buy.com.
It's as if the world came to the Sun marketing department and said, "How would you like to structure your $20,000,000 of free publicity?" And Sun marketing said, "We want to make Sun seem foolish so we can all retire."
Sun marketing: "We will make Java open, but, after many people have invested a lot in Java, we will reveal that we won't make it really open."
Sun marketing: "Wow!! Here's another great idea! We'll get our names on Slashdot. That's a great way to influence a lot of people who make computer purchasing decisions and will make them in the future. And here's how we'll do it: We will give the details of the UltraSparc III to a Linux company, but not all of the details. Then we will refuse to give the same information to the BSD people.
If that is what Sun marketing is thinking, I have to agree with them. It is a great way to get free bad publicity.
Sun seems to enjoy playing both sides of this war, giving and helping when necessary to maintain community support while playing their cards with the big companies instead of turning their backs on them like the community would have them do. Sun is a good company overall, but I sure wouldn't want to work there again. They are rather insignificant these days, now that openoffice is GPL. If they get in bed with OSS before its too late they might stick around long enough to make some great change in the industry, assuming marketting and morons don't flood them out.
Capitalism is for the weak. If you need money to survive YOU SUCK!
You dont say why each decision was "wrong". Sun owns the hardware. Sun can do what ever the hell it wants with it. If that doesnt appease the OpenBSD hippies, tough.
Its not Sun Microsystems unless you go threw the "bit of run around". Even if you are a reseller of their products. That is the way that Sun operatates. They are not trying to be evil they just unoganized and have to many rules.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Actually that's a moderately secure (C1 or C2) operating system on the Sparc hardware: the ultra-secure OS on the hardware is Trusted Solaris (B2).
Open BSD is a seriously good C system, but it's way below even a B3 system. Heck, even Microsoft got C2 once upon a time for NT, mostly by pulling the networking out.
I'm running Trusted Solaris right now, on a junk Ultra 1 in my basement... Mostly because I get homesick for Multics.
--davedavecb@spamcop.net
Damn the man! You'd think sun would take any business it could get because pc's are going crazy.
J Moll - PC Load Letter - I know what it means!-
So my thoughts are... Well... Solaris is a great UNIX! It's much more complete (esp. Trusted Solaris) than OpenBSD. Why not just stick to the software that's supposed to run on Sun hardware? Running OpenBSD on Sun hardware is about as silly as running Linux with Afterstep on NeXT hardware. I have no idea why people would remove the good product from their good hardware to replace it with something inferior.
Actually, the real reason is because Sun knows that BSD is dying.
You have obviously no CLUE. CDE was written by SUN dude, they could easily opensource that one and get help from the Motif community to enchance it.
Here's my main beef with slashbots: none of you live in the real world. Yes, Sun should just take what is probably millions of man-hours worth of work, and, hell, just make it free! Why the hell can't Sun do that? What evil, evil corporate bullies: not willing to give away source code they spent millions upon millions of dollars to develop!
And, what Motif community? Does anyone still develop in Motif anymore? Every real UNIX software package I've seen (in the real world, a place you Slashbots ought to spend some time in) uses its own widget libraries. Nobody develops in pure Motif anymore. Hell, CDE isn't even Motif, for the most part.
Slashbots tend to think everything is so easy, and why haven't they done it yet?, but, in this fun place the rest of us like to call reality, not everything is so simple and black-and-white.
Sun is not Evil simply because they won't give you shit for free. Please get over yourselves.
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
Bothe! Look! De Plane De Plane! What is your fantasy?
I want to suck Richard Milhous Stallman's dick while Theo De Rat pumps my tight asshole, you little shithook! Now get the fuck off my island!
What the hell? You get moderated up for that when I get called a troll for posting the exact same thing an hour earlier?
Too often people have come to me and said, "If I had just one wish for
anything in all the world, I would wish for more user-defined equations
in the HP-51820A Waveform Generator Software."
-- Instrument News
[Once is too often. Ed.]
- this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...