Tivo 2 Features On the Horizon

Lemuel writes "Tivo has finally pre-announced its music and photo pictures for the Tivo 2. Users will be able to play MP3s and view photos that come from their computer. It will also be possible to program the Tivo via a web site. An official announcement is due in January. There will be revenue associated with these items. Only the remote programming sounds interesting to me, but I'm glad for anything that would keep Tivo afloat."

Comments

Unfortunately

[Anonymous Coward]

Due to pressure from the MPAA, they're dropping the program recording capability.

Re:Unfortunately

[VoidEngineer]

Due to pressure from the Cisco, they're also dropping the network routing capability.

Re:Unfortunately

[boopus]

You know, as much as you didn't mean to, you bring up a good point. A series 2 tivo has USB network support, so for the price of an extra usb nic, it could easily double as a home router. Now that's what I'd call feature creep.

Re:Unfortunately

[VoidEngineer]

Thank you for your agreement. I used to work as a network engineer.

Revenue?

[jesser]

There will be revenue associated with these items.

You mean fees?

Re:Revenue?

[sunbane]

You know, I don't mind paying a couple additional fees if it means I can get program updates, etc. trhough the web rather than a phone line. That is the only reason I still pay the local baby bell to keep my house wired. That will save me $30 a month so if I pay an additional $10 a month for a few fees I still save $20!

Re:Revenue?

[gear02]

You know the Tivo 2 has built in drivers to support USB ethernet adapters. I don't have a land line and I get my updates through the web

Re:Revenue?

[ncc74656]

You know, I don't mind paying a couple additional fees if it means I can get program updates, etc. trhough the web rather than a phone line.

Add a TurboNet to your Series 1 TiVo (or one of the compatible USB Ethernet dongles to your Series 2), set up a DHCP server on your LAN, and change the dialing prefix (#,401 IIRC). Your TiVo will start grabbing its updates over whatever Internet access is on your LAN. TiVo doesn't know any differently since it doesn't maintain its own dial-up POPs. In fact, in addition to saving yourself some money if you ditch your POTS line, you'll also save TiVo some money by not using dial-up access.

You can also add TivoWeb to a Series 1 to add HTTP-based control of your TiVo. Open an SSH tunnel to your TiVo (something like ssh -L 80:tivo:80 -N -f me@myhome.org && mozilla http://localhost/) and you have secure access to your TiVo from anywhere. There are no fees associated with this, either.

Meanwhile

[sheepab]

I have the freedom of recording whatever I want on my pc with my video capture card, without paying a fee, and without my viewing habits being tracked. I wonder what kind of nasty stuff they have cooked up in this Tivo 2 of theirs....

Re:Meanwhile

[wdr1]

I thought about going that route. However, there's a few things missing:

1) I don't want to watch TV on my monitor. My TV is nicer. My TV is in front of the couch. My TV has a better picture. My TV has sound through my stero.

2) Season Passes. To be honest, I don't know when half of what I watch is one. I just look at at my Tivo list & watch one of them.

3) Searching by category. Everyone so often, I like to go look at say, all the movies, coming up & Tivo the ones I've wanted to see.

4) The interface. Any way you cut it, Tivo did a great job here.

Viva La Tivolution!
-Bill

Re:Meanwhile

[Keeper]

TiVo is very open about what kind of data they collect (data which is not linked to specific users), and provide an easy way to opt out of that collection process.

The fact that you can record video on a pc means nothing to me -- a Tivo is nothing but a really low end computer running linux -- but you don't get a Tivo just to record tv. Saying "my computer with a video capture card does the same thing" is like saying that "my ford escort is just as good for a 2000 mile treck across the country as luxury sedan". They both get the job done. One is just a hell of a lot nicer than the other.

Re:Meanwhile

[tswinzig]

I have the freedom of recording whatever I want on my pc with my video capture card

Yes, you do. On the contrary, I have the freedom to enjoy using my extremely user-friendly, feature-filled TiVo. Of giving programs thumbs-up and having it record similar programs. Of easily setting up Season Passes for all my favorite shows. For setting up wishlists based on favorite actors, directors, and keywords, and having any matching programs automatically record. And this all comes in a nice-looking black box that blends in with the rest of my home stereo equipment.

without paying a fee

I don't "pay a fee." That implies I'm getting nothing in return. I buy a service. I could also fork out $250 and get that service for the lifetime of my TiVo. If you had a TiVo, you wouldn't be complaining about $15 a month. I'd pay 2-3x that for what TiVo does.

without my viewing habits being tracked

This is the worst mud you can come up with to sling at TiVo?

Yes, horrors, TiVo aggregately tracks your viewing habits. I like this. I would prefer future content be tailored to what I like to watch. I like the idea that maybe my viewing preference information will make its way back to the bigwigs... maybe more West Wings, and Sopranos, and Six Feet Unders, and Andy Richters will show up on TV then!

I wonder what kind of nasty stuff they have cooked up in this Tivo 2 of theirs....

Sigh... You're the stereotypical slashdotter. I bet you get all hot and bothered with every "Your Rights Online" post they make here, don't you?

I am willing to trade a little meaningless privacy for a lot of added value.

Yes, that's right, it is MEANINGLESS to me if "they" know what I watch on TV! If I want to watch something deviant, I'll buy it on DVD like the rest of the world.

Re:Meanwhile

[Anonymous Coward]

Saying "my computer with a video capture card does the same thing" is like saying that "my ford escort is just as good for a 2000 mile treck across the country as luxury sedan". They both get the job done. One is just a hell of a lot nicer than the other.

Welcome to Slashdot. We use linux here. Nobody cares about "niceness", or "ease-of-use", or "simplicity", or any of that shit here. In fact, we hate it. Well, except for those Mac loonies over in apple.slashdot.org, but they use Macs, so their opinion doesn't count anyways.

</sarcasm>

Re:Meanwhile

[demaria]

Repeat: The Tivo is not just a VCR. The Tivo is not just a VCR. The Mac is not a typewriter. The Tivo is not just a VCR.

Re:Meanwhile

[boopus]

You won't understand the zealots untill you've joined them.

1) The monthly fee is a financed $250 payment. Anyone with basic math knowledge will pay the lifetime fee and be done with it. (a used replay or tivo with lifetime subscription sells for about $250 more than one without). A tivo or replay costs $500 new, give or take 50.

2) PVRs do what they're supposed to do. A PC which costs more than a tivo can do the same thing as a tivo, and do a worse job. With a PVR, you're watching extreemly flexible TV. With a PC, you're using your computer to watch TV. Oh, and a new ReplayTV will do everything you mentioned and they're fighting for your right to do it in court.

Re:Meanwhile

[tswinzig]

Why are Tivo Zealots so, well, zealous?

I could turn your question around on you. Why are computer-centric *nix zealots so against a user-friendly device that doesn't run on their computer?

Or I could answer your question directly and say, because non-TiVo users spout ignorant bullshit and get modded up by equally ignorant moderators?

Monthly fee. You may be willing to pay it, but I'm not.

Fine. Don't pay it. End of story. I couldn't care less if you aren't willing to pay it. Good for you.

However, if you want to post on slashdot and pretend that your no-monthly-charge, put-together PVR with the web-downloaded TV guide hack is as elegant as my $13 a month TiVo, please expect a strong rebuttal.

I don't care about downloading programming, etc, etc, all that stuff is available free on the web, I won't pay for it.

This is what drives me up the wall. I don't pay $13 a month merely for programming content. I pay $13 a month because TiVo, the company, takes care of making sure the content is accurate, the format is compatible with my PVR, the guide is updated if channel lineup changes occur, the PVR automatically uses the data to update recording times, the PVR handles my season passes automatically, etc.

Can't do a lot of cool stuff that it should be able to.

You're right, I'd love a TiVo BJ, but that hasn't made it in there yet.

The new Tivo's will come with a NIC, right?

No, they have a USB port where a USB/ethernet device can be plugged in, such as those found on 9thtee.com.

I should be able to connect to the Tivo and download mpegs.

You can. You've been able to for years. It's not officially supported (yet), but this is one of the reasons the TiVo Series 2 has USB ports -- so TiVo can make addons that support new feature ideas, without risking the entire device to lawsuits that may require them to stop production on certain products.

I should be able to send shows to friends, download them to my laptop, burn them to VCD, etc.

You can easily save shows out the S-Video port, to anything that can handle S-Video, such as a VCR, DVD recorder, etc. You can use the unofficial software I talked about above to pull video off the TiVo. Honestly I've never felt the need to do either one. However, there is nothing stopping TiVo from coming up with addons to add these features. I am sure this is why they added USB ports and are now talking about networkable features that are in the works.

Obviously I realize why Tivo will never include this functionality.

You do?

Re:Meanwhile

[mcowger]

Actually, snapstream has all the features you mention...TV output, Season Passes (incl all or just new epsiodes) category search, and a pretty damn good TV full screen interface. That and it does streaming too over the web. Unfortunately, its windows & WMP only at the moment (DivX is on alpha)...but still a neat product. Not affiliated, just a happy customer.

Re:Meanwhile

[Rura Penthe]

It should be noted that you can opt-out of any data mining whatsoever as well. I leave mine on though, I want tivo to know I love firefly!

Re:Meanwhile

[shepd]

>My TV has a better picture.

Say what now?

>Season Passes.

If only it were Europe and we had standard DVB stuff, instead of the duopoly in non-standard Satellite TV we currently have. It would make viewing TV on your computer a pleasure, and you could buy any channel you want, not some moronic package that makes you buy a wildlife channel because you want TLC.

>Searching by category. Everyone so often, I like to go look at say, all the movies, coming up & Tivo the ones I've wanted to see.

Again, this is really more the result of the duopolistic control of satellite TV (soon to be monopolostic in America, unfortunately) rather than something that's actually impossible. You can also put some of the blame on Canada for our inane CRTC.

>The interface. Any way you cut it, Tivo did a great job here.

This is true. Although there are Tivo-alike projects out there (running on Linux!), however, the ones with Tivo-style features are for DVB. Some of them approach many Tivo features, I'm told.

Here's one of the projects. Here's some that'll work minus the DVB (I think).

If you want to go ahead and give DVB a try, there's some free programming on Telstar 5, but I doubt it'll be anything like what you get on DirecTV.

Re:Meanwhile

[radish]

2) (and this is a minor point) Can't do a lot of cool stuff that it should be able to. The new Tivo's will come with a NIC, right? I should be able to connect to the Tivo and download mpegs. I should be able to send shows to friends, download them to my laptop, burn them to VCD, etc. Obviously I realize why Tivo will never include this functionality.


My Tivo has a NIC. I do all those things (and more - like remote control via web and soon via WAP) right now. Your next point?

Re:Meanwhile

[Zathrus]

I wonder what kind of nasty stuff they have cooked up in this Tivo 2 of theirs....

Hey, look ma! It's slander.

Unless, of course, you can prove it. Which you can't, because there is no "nasty stuff".

Re:Meanwhile

[Kazymyr]

>>My TV has a better picture.

>Say what now? [sourceforge.net]

My TV has a better picture because it's friggin bigger than the computer monitor, and no Dscaler will help that.

Re:Meanwhile

[ncc74656]

the result of the duopolistic control of satellite TV (soon to be monopolostic in America, unfortunately)

I heard on the radio the other day that the merger between Hughes (DirecTV) and Echostar (Dish Network) has been called off.

Re:Meanwhile

[akeb]

I live in a European state where the TiVo isn't available so I had to set up my own system. I use Perl and fetch information about shows, categories and external reviews (movies only) from the web. Each show is then assigned a value and in the end I calculate what shows to record to maximize the sum of values.

Most things are controlled with remote and I have built my computer in a nice silent black and silver box using products from NoiseControl.

Of course, the TiVo is a better choice if it's available and you don't like working with computers. But for me, setting everything up is more than half the fun so it's well worth it.

Conclusion: The TiVo is probably good, but about the same functionality can be acheived with a TV-card, Debian GNU/Linux and Perl if you're willing to put in some work.

Re:Meanwhile

[shepd]

>So you're saying that DScaler will let me sit 6 to 8 feet away from my 17" montitor and get a better picture than my 32" TV?

No, but if you had a 32" monitor, you'd have the best picture in the world.

(Yes, they make them that size. $1,900 according to The Screen Savers).

Re:Meanwhile

[shepd]

>My TV has a better picture because it's friggin bigger than the computer monitor, and no Dscaler will help that.

Then buy a bigger monitor. They do make them in TV sizes. I can't help it if you don't have a big enough monitor for your needs. Sorry.

Re:Meanwhile

[Tattva]

Then buy a bigger monitor. They do make them in TV sizes

Now you're just being silly. If you look up "alternative" in the dictionary I bet it doesn't say "an available choice that costs thousands of dollars more than a similar choice."

Re:Meanwhile

[shepd]

>Now you're just being silly. If you look up "alternative" in the dictionary I bet it doesn't say "an available choice that costs thousands of dollars more than a similar choice."

Actually, the price is at most double that of a decent quality TV of the same size.

IIRC, The Screen Savers were reviewing a 30" (or so, I can't remember the exact dimensions) monitor/TV combo with full VGA input and (according to them) a totally flat, high quality display that provided easy to read text for under $2000. They say that these monitors are very popular in meeting rooms for presentations. In comparison to a "regular" high-end TV, for example the Sony KV-32HV600, this represents a price inflation of only $100, which makes this an easy choice on the pocketbook.

I will furnish you with links and a model, if you would like. I would just need to search The Screen Savers site for past articles.

HTH.

But can you...

[swg101]

move files onto the computer for archiving/storage? The article talks about playing mp3's/video from the computer as well as "home networking", but there are no real details. Any other info?

Re:But can you...

[BadlandZ]

I don't see this will be much of a leap. There has long been a TiVo/Samba connection

programming the tivo

[painehope]

int sexualStatus ( char *sexuality ) {
if ( (strcmp(sexuality,"I'm not gay goddamnit")) == 0 ) {
recommendGayPorn();
fputs("Sorry, Dave, we think you're gay", stdout);
} else {
recommendGayPorn();
return 1;
}

Don't buy this

[bastardman]

Tivo is evil. It allows me to record programs on tv while I'm away from home. It controls my life when I am at home. I swear to God the thing watchs me sleep at night as well... probably records it too. Who's been watching those videos? Because it isn't me...

Back to wearing my tin foil jump suit

Tracking viewing habits

[Trane Francks]

and without my viewing habits being tracked

This is something that I've been puzzling over. Since we have cable-modem technology, what's to stop a cable tuner from calling home and reporting to the cable operator what channel you're viewing at any given moment? I'm not saying that this is actually being done, but I can think of no reason why such a thing couldn't be implemented. And if I were a cable operator, this would certainly be the sort of information that I'd be very, very interested in seeing.

Re:Tracking viewing habits

[Anonymous Coward]

This is something that I've been puzzling over. Since we have cable-modem technology, what's to stop a cable tuner from calling home and reporting to the cable operator what channel you're viewing at any given moment? I'm not saying that this is actually being done [snip]

From what I hear, this is already being done with digital cable - when you phone the cable company for tech support, the support person can see what channel your cable box is tuned to, and can even change the channel.

I have no idea if they store this information or use it for profiling (be sure to read your contracts, terms of service, privacy policy, etc. - if they don't mention this at all, nothing prevents them from doing it), but it's one of the reasons I don't have digital cable.

Re:Tracking viewing habits

[jackb_guppy]

It is there - since the digial set boxes have to call in for pay-per-view and some have to get the programming downloaded via the call - just like TiVo.

Tell them to stuff the box, and hook-up the cable directly!

I personally only watch TV with a Tin-Foil Hat. That why they can see what I thinking.

Re:Tracking viewing habits

[Tokerat]

It wouldn't suprise me. However, I don't believe they can tell specifically who is wathcing what, just how many are watching. While not as valuable as demographic information, "How many people saw this" is still worth quite a lot.

Re:Tracking viewing habits

[fenix down]

...the support person can see what channel your cable box is tuned to, and can even change the channel. ...

What cable company might that be? I have visions of an extremely short-term, but intensely fun-filled tech-support job.

"Who Wants to Be a Millionare? Oh, no you don't Mrs. McDonald, the Flyers are playing!"

"Young and the Restless? Looks like somebody's about to say something shocking... oops, finger slipped."

"Oooh. You sure switched from that porn to the Home and Garden Channel pretty fast. Maybe we oughta just switch that back..."

Wonder how long it'll take before they decide I'm a terrorist...

Re:Tracking viewing habits

[Zarquon]

The main problem being able to tell if a) The TV is actually on, and b) If someone is in the room. If I leave CSPAN on the cable box, turn off the TV, and leave for christmas break, that does not mean I've been watching CSPAN for a week. Aside from that, I don't see much trouble.

Re:Tracking viewing habits

[mrPalomar]

from what i've heard, they haven't explored this much because they can't tell when you are actually watching the TV and when you have it on, but are oh, say reading slashdot (or responding to a post). I think I heard not too long ago though that neilson (sp?) was using tivos to get information from the houses they had already chosen for ratings, but that's just in combination with other more intrusive stuff (like you have to hit a button whenever you start watching tv, etc.)

Re:Tracking viewing habits

[erpbridge]

Some cable providers, like one in my area (Eastern Connecticut Cable), require an addressable cable box to watch channels above and beyond their basic package. Channels like SciFi and Discovery are in this "Expanded" package. They also require a cable box for the "Premium" channels, like Showtime, Starz, HBO.

So you can't just plug your Tivo into their line and expect it to be able to watch those channels... you have to output the cable box to the Tivo which in turn outputs to TV, and use an IR blaster to change channels. If you go with a direct cable into Tivo, all channels except the basic ones (which is usually the local network feeds) show as scrambled.

I use Sattelite feed, which, without a DirecTivo, requires a set-top box of it's own to get anything...

Re:Tracking viewing habits

[Amadodd]

They do track everything you watch. They can and they will and there are no laws to stop them. The regular Sky subscription T & Cs even insists that you have the phoneline plugged in at all times, otherwise your special deal on the decoder is void. And I am sure that nothing stops them from sharing your habits with their 'affiliates'.

Re:Tracking viewing habits

[mosch]

Tracking such as your describing already is implemented.

All the advanced digital settops have the ability to "phone home" with viewer habits when installed on two-way cable systems, or installed with a telco return. Thus, unless you have one-way cable and you didn't hook up a phone line to your cable box, your viewing habits are probably being tracked.

As far as anonymity goes, there isn't any. The boxes send their unique ids back to the headend along with the saved data, so the cable company can identify exactly who is watching what, when.

Isn't digital technology great?

Re:Tracking viewing habits

[glesga_kiss]

My cable co. does the tracking, and I deliberately confuse them as much as possible. Put on shopping channels etc (stuff I don't watch) when I'm not about, that kind of thing.

It's a bit like the idea of swapping store loyalty cards with people. Mother of five suddenly starts buying microwave dinners and beer. It's my Bill Hicks driven, hatred of marketing types that does it!

Re:Tracking viewing habits

[kesuki]

They use it for the little ad banners in the channel change pop-up, and for the ad bar in the menu guide.
But as far as I know, they are NOT able to change your channel. They can change the channels you're allowed to view with a simple signal to the box, too.
And to think, they expect people to pay $5 a month to rent a little box that serves up Ads and engages in targeted advertising.

what's a pre-announcement?

[rhodesbe]

We wanted to announce that we are gonna say this at a later date. Oh wait! Crap!

Re:what's a pre-announcement?

[sam_handelman]

A "pre-announcement" is marketspeak for a deliberate leak. i.e. the Tivo people have not yet given a press release/conference on the topic (officially announcing it) but they have chosen to leak it to the press in an unofficial capacity.

Now - can anyone tell me how it is that they're still losing money with half a million *paying* customers? That's, like, serious cashflow.

Re:what's a pre-announcement?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now - can anyone tell me how it is that they're still losing money with half a million *paying* customers?

You're not even counting the fact that Tivo owns the patents for practically everything PVR-related that is patentable, and is licensing them to it's few competitors...

Unless PVRs aren't nearly as popular as it would seem, I'm not sure how a company that controls so much of it's market (either directly or through patents) can still be losing money.

Re:what's a pre-announcement?

[Tony Hoyle]

I wouldn't use Slashdot as a measure of the popularity of Tivo. Go to your non-techie relatives and mention Tivo in conversation... I tried this and got a mixture of:

'What's that?'
'Isn't that the thing that forces videos things you didn't ask for?'
'I've already got a VCR'

Absolutely *nobody* had any interest in buying one.

Even the salesmen know nothing about them - they have been witnessed pulling off the front panel trying to insert a VHS tape then telling the customer 'it must be broken I can't get the tape in'

This is partly why Tivo pulled out of the UK - no market over there. In the US you can keep a company ticking over with just the scraps as it's a very large consumer base.

Yes another fee by tivo

[ad0gg]

First I gotta pay to use tivo , now they are gonna charge to view pictures and play mp3's(which are stored on MY HARDWARE), and worse they want to charge you to program your tivo via the web? And to add insult to injury, they spam my menu with ads and download ads to MY HARDWARE. Oh wait I forgot to mention their stuff is spyware and report what your watching to their servers. So how is this good?

Re:Yes another fee by tivo

[RedX]

Nobody is forcing you to pay for any of these "pre-announced" new features. Don't want to pay for them? Fine, don't add them to your service. It certainly won't be a requirement.

What if I don't have a land line phone?

[malarkey]

It doesn't look like they've allowed for updated Tivo over broadband yet. I dropped my land line for a cell phone and broadband (had the cellphone already anyway). Tivo looks great, but is un-usable.

Re:What if I don't have a land line phone?

[sk3tch]

For your Tivo 1: http://www.9thtee.com/turbonet.htm

And your Tivo 2 can simply use one of many compatible USB ethernet adapters (support built-in to the Tivo "OS" albeit "unofficially").

Re:What if I don't have a land line phone?

[tswinzig]

It doesn't look like they've allowed for updated Tivo over broadband yet. I dropped my land line for a cell phone and broadband (had the cellphone already anyway). Tivo looks great, but is un-usable.

This is like the 5th highly rated comment in this article that is just plain wrong.

If you have a standalone TiVo (series 1), you can buy cards that fit in your TiVo and give you an ethernet port. Or you can buy the AirTivo device, and have WiFi connection instead!

If you have a standalone Series 2 TiVo, you can buy a USB device that plugs into the port and gives you an ethernet port. You could also buy a wireless AP and connect it to this port to give you wireless connectivity as well.

In either case, if you bought compatible hardware, you simply punch in a special code instead of a dialup phone number into the TiVo menu, and your TiVo will use your existing LAN connection to the net to download all its data each night. No software hacking required.

The TiVo forums refer to this as "broadband un-support," because while it works great in the TiVo, it is not yet officially supported.

I've used it for well over a year now, back when you used to have to muck with the software to get it to work.

Visit 9thtee for the necessary addons.

Re:What if I don't have a land line phone?

[jandrese]

Personally, I think the Trolls have taken to Tivo articles because people seem to take the bait really easily. There are TONS of trolls out on here today, perhaps because Tivo enthusiasts try to be so helpful?

I've always wanted a -1 Wrong moderation, or even -1 Stupid. Some of these posts just don't fit in the normal moderation categories (besides perhaps "Overrated" which is so vague as to be completely useless. I've never used an Overrated because it just doesn't provide any sort of useful feedback to the poster.

Re:What if I don't have a land line phone?

[malarkey]

Thanks for the info. I hate to be thought of as a troll. When you go to Tivo's site and check the FAQ, below is what you see.

Maybe I should have said broadband is not _supported_, rather than allowed for.

For Joe consumer, having to purchase and install unsupported equipment does not sell Tivo's.

From the FAQ on Tivo.com

Is a Phone Line Required?

Yes. A TiVo Digital Video Recorder works by automatically making a brief, daily call to download the latest TV program data to its hard drive so that you can take full advantage of your TiVo service subscription (learn more about TiVo service). This call is automated, lasts just a few minutes and occurs when your phone is not in use, usually at night. You do not need to install a new telephone jack; it works with your existing phone line. The TiVo service is accessed through a standard telephone line and is available as a local call in most areas. In some areas, local and long- distance toll charges may apply.

If you want to make sure that a local access number is available in your area, you can find the most up-to-date list of dial-in numbers using the UUNet POP Locator*. Simply enter your area code and all of the local numbers available for your area code will be displayed.

You are responsible for any toll charges that you incur when using a particular access number. Check with an operator if you are not sure which numbers are local to you.

Your phone will always be available for your use. Simply pick the phone up and the DVR will hang up and make a call later. A phone line splitter and a 25-foot phone cord are provided with the purchase of a TiVo DVR. The UUNet Pop Number Locator tool is 24-48 hours ahead of the TiVo listings so all numbers appearing within the tool may not show in the TiVo interface immediately.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

More TiVo hacking links

[shird]

Andrew Tridgell's notes on hacking the TiVo, including his various hacks for the device. Also, TiVo hacking FAQ may be of interest.

Re:More TiVo hacking links

[glitchvern]

From the notes on converting the TiVo to use PAL signals

As docs on some of the video chips in the TiVo were not available a primary technique used was to do random register operations until the desired result was achieved.

Damn, those samba guys are badasses!!

Re:More TiVo hacking links

[Mulletproof]

From the Linked FAQ...

Can I hack my TiVo so I don't need a TiVo subscription?

NO NO NO. This is something that will NOT be explored. TiVo has been very gracious in not coming down on all this hacking described in this FAQ and we will do nothing to harm that. Nothing will be looked at to get around the subscription service so don't ask! Regardless your TiVo will function as a VCR already with manual record mode.

Awww... What thoughtful and caring "hackers" these people are! it fills my heart with warm gooey liquid joy to know that they teach you how to modify for some personal, quasi-legal gains, but not others.

Re:More TiVo hacking links

[Keith Russell]

...they teach you how to modify for some personal, quasi-legal gains, but not others.

It's a simple distinction, really. Subscriptions are a source of revenue for TiVo.

Compare this to hard drive expansion mods, for example. If an OEM offered a unit with an expansion bay for a pre-blessed hard drive, such hacks would be frowned upon. (Of course, we wouldn't need that hack anymore.) But that's not the case. AFAIK, nobody is selling different capacities for the same model. The marginal cost of producing two models with different sized hard drives is greater than the cost of a single model. It's cheaper for OEMs to find the price-capacity sweet spot.

The Average Joe isn't concerned with expanding his TiVo's capacity. And if he does get interested, he'll see that the process is more "bike without instructions on Christmas Eve" than "plug it into the wall and turn it on". It's the Power User who wants more capacity. He's savvy enough to know that expanding a single box is the best option. Sure, the accountants would like you to buy a second box. Connecting and managing another unit, however, is sub-optimal compared to hacking a single unit by stuffing in two Drivezillas. It's not a lost sale, since anyone skilled enough to expand their TiVo successfully is smart enough to not buy two TiVos in the first place. Hopefully, they're also smart enough to not put two rattlesnake-loud 7200 rpm drives in a case designed for a single, quiet 5400 rpm drive without providing more airflow and sound baffling. :-)

Thus, we have the current Gentlemen's Agreement: Circumventing the subscription service hurts TiVo and, by extension, TiVo's user base, and is therefore taboo. As long as the hack doesn't impact the bottom line, however, TiVo won't try to stop it.

Re:More TiVo hacking links

[oodie]

Tivo is certainly losing some revenue on the fact that people are able to easily add harddrives. Which does tivo make more on? A 80 hour unit for $399, or a 40 hour unit for $199? I'm sure plenty of people bought the 40 hour unit over the 80 hour one only because they knew that a $100 harddrive would give them over 120 hours.

Tivo 1 Owners already have a FREE web interface...

[sk3tch]

http://tivo.lightn.org/

No add'l streams of revenue off us Tivo 1-model hackers. Heh heh heh. :)

Yeah...we can't view photos (boo hoo) and listen to MP3s (Apex DVD player anyone?) but we can extract shows, FTP, telnet, etc. into our Tivos...

Wonder if Tivo will now be disabling this "ability" with a new round of hacker "thwarts"?

Story != Tivo 2

[aardwolf64]

The second generation TiVo has been around for quite some time (months even), and it does not have broadband support. Unless they'll be selling hardware upgrades (which is doubtful considering the warranty situation), you'll probably have to get a third generation TiVo.

Of course, that's not to stop you from getting the Turbonet Ethernet Adapter Board for your TiVo from The 9th Tee.

Re:Story != Tivo 2

[sk3tch]

Wrong!
Get a USB ethernet adapter...there are quite a few models that are "unofficially" supported by TiVo's "OS".

Right on the same site you linked too...lol:
http://www.9thtee.com/tivousbethernet.htm

Re:Story != Tivo 2

[aardwolf64]

That's nice... I wonder if the drivers support the 1st generation TiVos (since that's what I have.) I actually bought a mounting kit, and "upgraded" my 30-hour Sony TiVo to a 90-hour one.

Re:Story != Tivo 2

[tswinzig]

The second generation TiVo has been around for quite some time (months even), and it does not have broadband support. Unless they'll be selling hardware upgrades (which is doubtful considering the warranty situation), you'll probably have to get a third generation TiVo.

Wrong. TiVo 2 comes with USB ports. These are meant for addons. There are plenty of USB-Ethernet solutions available. In fact, TiVo 2 comes with (albeit somewhat hidden) support for these devices already. You can change your telephone dialup # to a special code, and TiVo will use the USB/Ethernet connection to download program guide data and system updates (and to update the clock).

Presumably these new addons would utilize this broadband over USB technology.

Of course, that's not to stop you from getting the Turbonet Ethernet Adapter Board [9thtee.com] for your TiVo from The 9th Tee [9thtee.com].

It's amazing that you linked to 9th tee's turbonet product, and yet completely missed the USB/Ethernet stuff I was just talking about for TiVo 2's.

photos and music?

[pizza_milkshake]

TiVo already has full motion video. i thought the trend went: text -> pictures and music -> video.

Re:photos and music?

[cheezitmike]

Shhhh... you're giving away the secret plans for TiVo series 4: the ability to save text files!

Re:photos and music?

[fenix down]

Actually, that might be pretty good. Save closed captioning or subtitles or something. You could record the captions and send them to your computer for an instant transcript. Wouldn't have to type out all your little Simpson's quotes anymore.

Pre-announcing the pre-boarding

[sjbe]

I've been puzzling over how you can "pre-board" an airplane. Board before you board?

Of course they use the term "de-plane-ing" (not even sure how you would spell that) to mean disembarking from the plane so who knows what they're thinking...

(And for you logic nazi's, I do get it. I just think it's stupid)

Re:Pre-announcing the pre-boarding

[alias]

I believe you were attempting George Carlin's joke, but you're missing that well articulated, and enlightening comment, such as "pre-suck my genital situation!" that Carlin brings to any discussion:

"Anyway, it's part of this boarding process, they say, "We would like to pre-board." Well, what exactly is that anyway? What does it mean to pre-board? To get on before you get on?

That's another complaint of mine. Too much use of this prefix "pre". It's all over the language now. Pre-this, pre-that. "Place the turkey in a pre-heated oven." It's ridiculous. There are only two states an oven can possibly exist in: heated or unheated. Pre-heated is a meaningless, fucking term.

It's like pre-recorded. "This program was pre-recorded." Well, of course it was pre-recorded. When else are you gonna record it, afterwards? That's the whole purpose of recording, to do it beforehand. Otherwise it doesn't really work, does it!

Pre-existing, pre-planning, pre-screening. You know what I tell these people? Pre-suck my genital situation! And they seem to understand what I'm talking about. "



-Alias

Re:Pre-announcing the pre-boarding

[Mr Guy]

No you don't, you rerecord a prerecorded broadcast.

Unless, of course, you are in the habit of going to a studio with a mini-cam?

Tracking what you watch.

[Anonymous Coward]

I WANT them to track my viewing habits. It's like voting for your favorite show. And if they want TiVo to record show that follow my habits, more power to them. Anything to reduce the "Friends" ratio can't be bad.

And for watching TV on my PC, I think I'd much rather sit in my Lazy Boy, with my feet up, looking at a 35" screen and not having the sound drowned out by CPU fans.

Re:Tracking what you watch.

[Com2Kid]

• And for watching TV on my PC, I think I'd much rather sit in my Lazy Boy, with my feet up, looking at a 35" screen and not having the sound drowned out by CPU fans.

Monitor is 36", couch, and I like the sound of CASE fans. (CPU fan, singular, unless you have one of those massive gladiator coolers, but who in the world still uses those?)

Re:Tracking what you watch.

[LiquidAsphalt]

Maybe if they can start monitoring how many times I play something back as well and monitor what I record family guy still might be on TV.

I WANT FAMILY GUY!!!

Re:Tracking what you watch.

[Zathrus]

TiVo tracks every button press from the remote.

So, yes, they do know how many times you play something back. At least, in aggregate.

Unfortunately for you, everyone else appears to have put 3 thumbs down on Family Guy.

Re:Tracking what you watch.

[LiquidAsphalt]

Well I had tivo when I lived in my fraternity in college. I saved every Family guy episode and people would probably walk in and watch one like 3 or 4 times a day. I can't say how many times I have seen the same episodes but they never fail to make me laugh. Give me family guy or give me death, okay I didn't mean that. Just give me family guy.

mp3s AND digital photos? WOW!

[USC-MBA]

Sarcasm aside, it has to be said that there are better uses for a television, especially the home-theater setups many Tivo users prefer, than as a slideshow screen or jukebox.

I refer of course to using the television as a medium for viewing video clips saved in formats such as wmv, mpeg, divx, avi, etc. If users could transfer porn^H^H^H^H educational videos and the like directly to the Tivo box from their computers, it would be a great increase in convenience, and might just be the app that secures in the customer bade Tivo needs.

Love my Tivo... BUT...

[no_such_user]

I've been a Tivo subscriber for 2.5 years now, and while I love my Tivo (Series 1, 90+ hours), $13 a month is starting to get old. I don't understand who would be willing to spend yet more to play music and view pictures.

Really, there are too many things competing for a consumer's monthy share of the paycheck. There's cable/satellite. Cell phone. Bill payment service. Bank fees. The ISP. Tivo. Gym membership. Subscriptions to various web sites. And it's been said that the world's favorite operating system and supporting programs will be billed monthly in the not-too-distant future. With an economy in not-top-shape (here in the US, anyway) and the unemployment rate rising, who can afford to pay for all these monthly services?

As for increasing my $13/month to Tivo for new services... I'd consider a one-time charge to add software to it, similar to when I install an application onto my PC. But not a monthly billed increase.

Re:Love my Tivo... BUT...

[ICA]

Excellent point, I have been trying to point this out to people for some time now. Everything is going to the subscription model now, and most people aren't smart enough to realize what is happening.

To most people who are not mindful of their budget, a monthly bill of $15 or so here or there is nothing. They fail to take into account what happens when they have 10 or more of those.

If you offered the same 10 services in a package for $150 a month, they wouldn't even consider it.

Personally, I don't have Cable TV or phone line anymore, and I won't use a bank or ATM with fees.

That leaves me with the utility/DSL/gym which I can manage.

Re:Love my Tivo... BUT...

[captaincucumber]

Preach it, brother.

Another point is that if you tried to tell people you were going to charge them $600/year for cable they'd go crazy. And yet, cable here costs $50/month. I think people just don't do the math. $600/year and mostly all I watch is NBC, FOX, and UPN, all of which are free with a $20 antenna.

Fuck cable.

Re:Love my Tivo... BUT...

[tswinzig]

I've been a Tivo subscriber for 2.5 years now, and while I love my Tivo (Series 1, 90+ hours), $13 a month is starting to get old.

FWIW, if you had bought the lifetime service, you would have already saved over $100 in monthly fees, and pay nothing else going forward.

Really, there are too many things competing for a consumer's monthy share of the paycheck.

Competing, yes. The nature of capitalism. TiVo will find out if this idea works, and adjust it (or fail) if not.

And it's been said that the world's favorite operating system and supporting programs will be billed monthly in the not-too-distant future.

The idea being that you would pay less for it up-front, with a running monthly fee for the ability to use the latest version. Not that you would continue to pay $300 for Office, and a monthly service fee ON TOP of that.

With an economy in not-top-shape (here in the US, anyway) and the unemployment rate rising, who can afford to pay for all these monthly services?

The rich can afford to pay for ALL these monthly services. But you and I will have to pick and choose which monthly services we want. TiVo will be vying for your dollars along with everyone else.

As for increasing my $13/month to Tivo for new services... I'd consider a one-time charge to add software to it, similar to when I install an application onto my PC. But not a monthly billed increase.

Strange that you say that, when your past actions don't indicate that you really feel that way. You could have purchased the lifetime service from TiVo, and saved money already. Yet you pay the monthly fee.

Re:Love my Tivo... BUT...

[no_such_user]

As for increasing my $13/month to Tivo for new services... I'd consider a one-time charge to add software to it, similar to when I install an application onto my PC. But not a monthly billed increase.

Strange that you say that, when your past actions don't indicate that you really feel that way. You could have purchased the lifetime service from TiVo, and saved money already. Yet you pay the monthly fee.

Strange? That's not how I see it. Two and a half years ago, nobody knew if this Tivo thing would work out.

Anyway, I feel that paying a monthly fee for updated TV listings and system software is worth more to me than paying monthly to access my own photos and music. Once Tivo stops deploying new software for my 1st gen unit, the current $13 fee will be less justified (and I will seek out another, perhaps competing, PVR).

At this point, I'm not about to go for the lifetime subscription. There's a growing chance my aging Tivo will bite it sooner rather than later... or that someone else will come along with something better.

Re:Love my Tivo... BUT...

[uradu]

> FWIW, if you had bought the lifetime service, you would have already saved over $100 in monthly fees

Whey I bought my Series 1 SA, they were going for $399. Given the hard time I had convincing the wife that we really needed this, there's no way I would have gotten away with spending another $200 on top of that. And if you claim $600 for yet another TVA appendage is nothing, you're either not married or not in my (and most people's here) social bracket, so we have little to discuss either way.

Re:Love my Tivo... BUT...

[Zathrus]

Hrm... well when my GF (now wife) moved in I had a TiVo. She didn't know what it was, and thought it was just a toy.

About a month later we went out and bought a second one, with lifetime service.

And no, I doubt I'm in a different social bracket than you. But I do know when it makes sense to do a capital outlay upfront.

Re:Love my Tivo... BUT...

[uradu]

> She didn't know what it was, and thought it was just a toy.
> About a month later we went out and bought a second one, with lifetime service.

It's funny how wifes are that way. My wife now curses anytime she has to watch TV without TiVo (like downstairs or away from home), and yet I had to twist her arm to get it. But that doesn't change the fact that there are spending thresholds beyond which it doesn't matter how nice the product is, you simply won't spend that much. Granted, the TiVo has come down in price now ($200 for the 40 hour units), but now it's a matter of spending more on the lifetime service than the device itself, which triggers new objections.

Re:Love my Tivo... BUT...

[mosch]

You're a troll, a liar, or both.

2.5 years ago the service fee was $10/mo, not $13/mo.

You claim you prefer one-time charges, but you didn't pay for lifetime service (which was only $100 2.5 years ago).

Re:Love my Tivo... BUT...

[mosch]

What "social bracket" are you in, the very, very shortsighted one?

You don't need to be particularly smart to realize that a $200 outlay that pays for itself in a year and a half is a pretty decent return on investment, and is a good idea.

Re:Love my Tivo... BUT...

[Zathrus]

Well, show her that it's a recoverable expense -- if you wanted to upgrade to a newer TiVo in the future then you can sell the old one on eBay and get the entire cost of the lifetime service back. You can't do that for monthly fees.

Oh, and if you (or anyone else) does go looking to buy a TiVo - check out the returns at local stores. We bought my wife's that way and saved about $50.

Re:Love my Tivo... BUT...

[uradu]

> Oh, and if you (or anyone else) does go looking to buy a TiVo

Actually, I'm considering selling mine and getting two ReplaysTVs instead. The LAN streaming between the units sold me on them. Plus, I never use TiVo's main claim to fame anyway, the thumbs and suggested viewing. I'm very particular about what I want to watch.

Re:Love my Tivo... BUT...

[Issue9mm]

I think that what the parent was trying to point out though, is that it's likely that they will survive at least long enough for you to recoup your investment. If the monthly service charge is $13, then you only need Tivo to last 19 months (give or take) to have recouped your investment, and arguably, everything after that is free.

Had you already paid for the lifetime subscription, with your two and a half year commitment, you'd already be free, and have paid $143 less dollars than you already have, and not be having to pay $13 next month either.

Don't get me wrong... it's your money, you do with it what you like... but had you gone lifetime out of the gate (and I completely understand why you didn't), then you'd be saving money now.

-9mm-

YES YOU CAN! But only with a TiVo 1...

[sk3tch]

Some links:

http://www.digitalregime.com/tivo2svcd/
http://www.tivonews.com/article.pl?sid=02/09/09/18 34255&mode=thread&threshold=

Non-service PVRs?

[autopr0n]

Are there any good PVRs out there that you don't need to pay a monthly service fee to use? I mean, come on. TV listings are hardly worth $5/month or whatever. I can get all of that off the web for free.

I also really don't want some company (and possibly TIA in the future) sifting through my TV viewing habits.

Are there any PVR solutions out there that just let you record TV shows and watch 'em later? (being able to transfer the files to my computer would be a huge bonus as well :P)

Re:Non-service PVRs?

[UserChrisCanter4]

There certainly are. Several of the ReplayTV models are priced (or were, maybe they've changed) sans-subscription. Of course, the prices started at $500, coincidentally, very similar to the subscription-based models + lifetime fee. The subscription fee is really just a different method of making a profit on the hardware. The catch is that few (or fewer, as these companies are all struggling) people would shell out $500 for this equipment, but $200-$300 falls within the acceptable range. Just think about it this way: your PVR costs $500+. You can pay them now, or you can break half of that out in installments.

Not to toot the ReplayTV horn again, but their units ship with 10BaseT Ethernet. Although there isn't official Replay->PC support, there are programs that let you do it.

Re:Non-service PVRs?

[tswinzig]

Are there any good PVRs out there that you don't need to pay a monthly service fee to use?

No.

I mean, come on. TV listings are hardly worth $5/month or whatever. I can get all of that off the web for free.

Then do it.

However, if you think it's too much of a pain in the ass to write and maintain a program that can consistently generate accurate results for your home-brewed PC-based PVR, then you just may be interested in a TiVo, where everything is easy to use, and it costs a mere $13 a month for the entire service.

I also really don't want some company (and possibly TIA in the future) sifting through my TV viewing habits.

1. They're aggregate, not tied to you. 2. You can turn it off. 3. What are you afraid of? That Mr. BigWig will know you are one of 100,000 people watching X-files reruns at 3AM. WTF cares? Worry about something that matters.

Are there any PVR solutions out there that just let you record TV shows and watch 'em later?

The beauty of TiVo is what happens when you don't have to worry about setting your device up to record shows. You tell it what you like, and it does everything for you.

I think you may be looking for a VCR?

Re:Non-service PVRs?

[mckwant]

Not really. Your best bet might be keeping track of the Freevo project, although I've no experience with that, and it doesn't appear to be able to tape at the moment.

> TV listings are hardly worth $5/month...

We own two TiVos, and you're not just paying for the listings, but for the superb user interface. As many other posters have already mentioned:

"Yes, you COULD do everything TiVo does with a homegrown computer, but TiVo comes in a squeaky clean WORKING package, as opposed to cobbling something together from assorted parts lying around your garage."

I've had two SW upgrades during the couple of years we've had the TiVos, and both upgrades have brought features that significantly enhanced the use of my TiVo. Easily worth $10/month, IMHO.

> ...some company sifting through my TV viewing habits

TiVo are very open about what they track and what they don't. IIRC, they don't even trace back to the user, but use your information in conjunction with others to create profiles.

At that level, I don't have much of a problem with it.

Re:Non-service PVRs?

[droleary]

Are there any good PVRs out there that you don't need to pay a monthly service fee to use?

Uh, yeah, there's this one called TiVo that you just might have heard about. I got one and decided after a bit that I wasn't really getting much out of the service, so I cancelled it. As their web site states: "Without the TiVo service, a TiVo DVR has extremely limited functionality." It works just fine for me as, essentially, a tapeless VCR that has the ability to schedule more than 6 events, which is all I really needed. So if your needs are like mine and within the realm of what is considered "limited functionality", check out a TiVo.

Re:Non-service PVRs?

[dcmeserve]

> Are there any good PVRs out there that you don't need to pay a monthly service fee to use?

Yes. Tivo.

People talk about "needing" to pay for the directory service just because it's so freakin' useful that lobotomizing the machine down to vcr-grade seems like a waste.

Re:Non-service PVRs?

[dcmeserve]

Damn you! You beat my almost-indentical post by 2 minutes. :) Though I think I went in a different direction with it -- so please have mercy, o mighty modders!

But on the subject of tivo-as-vcr, I'm thinking about buying my parents a tivo as a gift. But there's an issue: do I get it w/o the service, and in essence just be giving them a better-than-vcr device, or do I shell out the extra $250 or so for a lifetime service (don't want to make them pay $15/mo), because it's the service that I'd *really* like to give them. But $450 is too much.

Has anyone else out there given TiVo as a gift? Any interesting stories/info?

Re:Non-service PVRs?

[GeorgeH]

If TV listings aren't worth $5/month then they certainly aren't worth the $13/month that TiVo charges. But if TV listings aren't worth that to you, then don't pay and the Tivo will still work - you'll just have to manually set up all the record times.

Re:Non-service PVRs?

[miltimj]

your PVR costs $500+. You can pay them now, or you can break half of that out in installments.

That math only works if you take out a loan on $250 and pay it back "in installments". If you pay $250 for a PVR and pay /TiVo|SonicBlue/'s installment plan, you're not done after two years, and in fact, would have to pay the $250 like you would in the beginning.

I just got a ReplayTV (just too many supported, built-in features to not choose it over a TiVo), and I'm probably going to pay the first month to try it out, then get a lifetime subscription.

Re:Non-service PVRs?

[DosGusanos]

If you don't want to pay the Tivo fee on DirecTivo, sign up for DirecTV's Total Choice Premier package. Granted, $81+ a month for satellite TV is pricey, but you get to add on as many Tivos as you want with no fee. And you get every non-PPV movie channel you could want (all HBO's, Cinemaxes, Showtimes, IFC, etc), including the HD channels. But that's another "buy a receiver" vs. "build one on a PC" debate...

(I subscribe to Total Choice Premier + NFL Sunday Ticket, and no, I don't work for Tivo/Hughes/etc. ;)

-DG

Re:Non-service PVRs?

[droleary]

As a gift, especially for parents, it probably depends on how tech-saavy they are. If they're still not comfortable with programming a VCR, then a non-service TiVo is not the way to go. Like I said, it works for me because my issues with the VCR were not of the programming/setting the clock variety, but with the constant tape changes and the limited scheduling. So if they're mostly happy with the way a VCR works, gift them with just the unit. If they're the kind of people that really enjoy TV entertainment but have trouble with technology, the TiVo service is actually well worth the money. Compare what is the price of a dozen DVDs to how many trouble-free hours of broadcast viewing they could do and make your decision.

Oh come ON already...

[sweet 'n sour]

Who cares about listening to mp3's and seeing pictures on yet ANOTHER device... And what does any of that have to do with recording, pausing, skipping which is what the tivo is supposed to be all about! Hell, my 65 dollar dvd player can do all that now. How many pictures can you stick on one vcd? a thousand?

Why not make a feature that we can really use... like high definition support!

Now, when they say website...

[xchino]

By it being programmed through a website, do they mean a web interface, or an actual internet web site? If it's through a web site, I think I'd be wary of them tracking my viewing habis.. more so than they do already..

Odd

[T. Will S. Idea]

What makes them think that people will pay extra to listen to music? People may pay extra if they get to download the music and burn it to CDs and transfer it to their MP3 players, but I can't imagine Tivo getting away with that when others have tried and failed.

And I can't even imagine how they could get people to pay extra to show their own photos on their own TV.

As a Tivo subscriber, I find it alarming that these guys are flailing around aimlessly with stupid business models like these. It makes me think that their days truly are numbered.

Re:Odd

[tswinzig]

What makes them think that people will pay extra to listen to music?

Oh, I dunno.

Re:Soo... you're lazy?

[wdr1]

Yes, I'm VERY lazy when watching TV. That's the point! ;-)

-Bill

Re:Uhh...

[tswinzig]

I don't know about you, but my computer can already play MP3's and view photos. Why pay $250 to do that again?

Sigh. What is with these lame, ignorant posts getting modded up tonight?

1. Can your computer play MP3's on your stereo in the living room, which just happens to be hooked up to your TiVo?

2. Can your computer display photos on your big TV in the living room for the entire family to see?

If you answered No to either question, you just may be in their target market. Golly.

Tivo's forcast...

[johnraphone]

"Ramsey also reiterated TiVo's forecast that its subscribers will double to 1 million in fiscal 2004, which begins in February. "

Thats pretty cool. But I don't think Turner Broadcasting's CEO will like it.

Funny... my Xbox does all that already.. :)

[steppin_razor_LA]

Not that I'm knocking Tivo.. I absolutely love my DirecTivo... but these new features don't seem all that compelling.

Imagine the implications for...

[Ghoser777]

pr0n!

You thought it looked good on your 15 inch CRT? Wait till you see all the *action* on your TV's 24 inches of glory... although that may not be the only 24 inches of glory you'd be seeing.

[rim shot]

F-bacher

oi vey!

[ebbv]

i have a 22" monitor on my computer, but i still don't want to watch tv with it. my computer is in my bedroom. the tv is in the living room.

also the tv is a 56" projection.

(ps it's also not hard to spell 'stereo'.)

TiVo 2 vs. the spirit of CopyLeft & HDTV

[Anonymous Coward]

TiVo has been "signing" their kernels so that the TiVo hardware will only recognize the kernel compiled by themselves. So, while TiVo does provided the source code to the Linux kernel and their modification to the source code, you will never get your own compilation of the kernel to ever run on the hardware. Of course, this defeats the hole point of CopyLeft/GPL!

But, even if you don't care about Free Software and the future of Linux, there is also the issue of the future of TV. The FCC keeps claiming that there will be *ALOT* more ATSC digital TV broadcasts in 2006. That is only 4 years away! Why would anyone want to pay at least $200 + $250 subscription for a total of $450 on something that the NTSC tuner can't be replaced in?? TiVo still makes no claims to the be "HDTV ready." If it had some USB2 ports then there might be hope in the future but the two USB v1 ports provided have a *practical* maxium through-put of maybe 16 Mbps *combined*. An ATSC tuner can spit end up spitting out 19.2 Mbps of digital TV goodness of which the TiVo USB ports can't keep up. By the time TiVO figures out how far behind they are either a future version of Xbox or PlayStation will have entered the PVR market.

Re:TiVo 2 vs. the spirit of CopyLeft & HDTV

[Guppy06]

"Of course, this defeats the hole point of CopyLeft/GPL!"

What's the whole point of "copyleft"/GPL? Why, in your own words, it's:

"TiVo does provided the source code to the Linux kernel and their modification to the source code"

GPL applies to software. TiVo is hardware. You'd think that if you could find Slashdot you'd know the differences by now...

Or are you one of those bolsheviks who won't be happy until you can get both for $0.00?

Re:TiVo 2 vs. the spirit of CopyLeft & HDTV

[ndogg]

Your intellectual myopia is aggravating.

You completely miss the point of his post. Yes, TiVo is mostly about the hardware, but TiVo is making it difficult to use the software on that hardware as a person wishes, which the heart of the GPL. The original poster isn't asking to be able to obtain the TiVo for free, but rather the freedom to utilize that hardware in what ever manner [s]he pleases and using what ever software [s]he wishes, and the GPL is meant to protect those freedoms. These are freedoms that the FSF feel ought to be inherent in a person's own private property, but more often than not, this is not the case. TiVo has violated those philosophies.

This is may not be a violation of the wording contained in the GPL, but it is certainly a violation of the philosophy that created it.

Re:TiVo 2 vs. the spirit of CopyLeft & HDTV

[scd]

I'm assuming here that TiVo does give source changes back to the community. If they don't, tell me and stop reading.

Note that the "point" of the GPL (in your opintion) and the "letter" of the GPL probably differ. GPL says that if TiVo changes the source, they make those changes available. Nowhere is it stated that their hardware has to recognize an arbitrary kernel. It's completely within their rights to limit which kernels can run on the hardware they manufacture (as it is (or at least should be) within your rights to hack that hardware to allow arbitrary kernels once you own the hardware).

In short, if they provide access to their source changes, they are doing nothing wrong.

Re:TiVo 2 vs. the spirit of CopyLeft & HDTV

[asv108]

That is only 4 years away! Why would anyone want to pay at least $200 + $250 subscription for a total of $450 on something that the NTSC tuner can't be replaced in??

Well as someone who just bought one of these outdated Tivo Series 2, I went ahead and purchased the lifetime subscription. All you need to do is go over to Ebay and search for "tivo lifetime." You will see a bunch of series 1 tivos going for $300 to $500. So a couple of years from now, selling my tivo for $300 seems like a good deal to me. Plus, I usually don't keep hardware for more than a 2 years with the exception of my TV. I don't think anyone is worried about HDTV considering 1/2 of the United States was suppose to have it by now, yet I don't get any HDTV feeds unless I get directv which my landlord will not allow. Even then, its only a few channels.

Re:TiVo 2 vs. the spirit of CopyLeft & HDTV

[ShavenYak]

When (if) HDTV happens, there will be boxes that take the HDTV signal and spit out standard NTSC in every form from good old coax to composite to s-video and component. You'll be able to hook it up to your old Tivo like every other cable box on the market.

Sorry, you're incorrect. HDTV is available on our cable system, but the box has only a component video output, and if I'm not mistaken it's 1080i only. Someone might make a downconverter that would output NTSC video to a Tivo (you'd also need a D-A converter for the digital audio out), but that's only useful if the HD channels are showing programming that's not available on another channel (otherwise you'd just hook the Tivo to the cable or an NTSC box).

Snapstream

[wilpig]

I don't want to sound like a troll or a bad infomercial but I am currently beta testing a program called snapstream that does everything that a tivo does along with the remote show management, and supports multiple codecs for recording too.

Don't take my word for it check it out. http://www.snapstream.com the watching live tv over my network at home is really nice. Plus being able to connect in anytime from work and see what is going on has been fun as well.

More than the story tells

[Quikah]

According to an "unofficial" post by a TiVo marketing rep there is much more to this than just mp3 and picture viewing.

My guess: Originally when series 2 was announced they mentioned that they would have some deal with Real. I am guessing that you will be getting some of the premium Real content with this.

Re:Uhh...

[tswinzig]

1. Yes
2. Yes.

Wow. That sure was hard. >$200!

I didn't say both answers would be No. I said IF either answer is no, THEN you MAY be in their target market.

The person I was replying to was implying these addons served no useful purpose. There are plenty of devices out there that will, for $250 or more, give you a nice interface to play MP3's on your stereo, with or without your home computer as the intermediary.

Now TiVo is coming out with one of these devices as well, and it will also support displaying photos, and it will have the advantage of integration with the already-slick user interface of TiVo.

So shut your pie-hole.

Tivo online?

[Cat_Byte]

So how long before a Nimda style virus hits Tivo 2 units everywhere and sets it to record 30 hours of informercials for you?

The funniest part of the Nimda outbreak was that a certain printer with an html interface was infected at a college. Thankfully powering it off reset the html code ;)

Coach Potato PCs for the masses

[greenmonk]

Most normal folks still aren't keen on this whole digital lifestyle thing. My dad is pining for a single device that lets him control music and video easily, and he won't even do that until its simple and elegant unlike the kludgy PC video capture stuff out there for free. Tivo has the best PVR sheduling features out there, and adding an easy way for joe consumer to get his music and pictures from his pc to his entertainment center (which is where he really wants to enjoy these things in the first place) may just be the extra value that people need to warm up to this whole set-top digital hub concept. outside of us geeks, few have so far.

But charging extra for these features can't last for long. Tivo has the best scheduling features and I love my DirecTivo, but the gap is closing, and many others are starting to offer devices that provide PC power that can be controlled from the couch with a remote control. Microsoft is pushing its Media Center, but the real device that may finally hit it big is the Moxi Media Center. This box does the tv recording and music and photo streaming from a pc as well, and apparently does it elegantly as it was widely considered the best of show at last year's CES. Most importantly, Charter Cable will soon be rolling out this box to tons of subscribers next year, normal folks who would NEVER seek out let alone pay extra for an all-in-one media box, but will likely fall in love with it after the cable guy installs it. This type of functionality is coming fast from many angles and I for one am quite excited about it. I love my Tivo, but if they try to charge too much for the features, the masses will eventually have all this stuff handed to them trojan-horse style. Pioneers often get arrows in their backs...

Replay

[kEnder242]

Replay alrady does this and more

-lets you set your program from the web www.myreplaytv.com
-Pictures can be uploaded to it
-streaming over the network
-share shows over the internet (you cant share what you recieved)

I can live without mp3

I did some temp tech support for these before SONICblue moved to India (last week). Nice PVR, wish I bought one.

Re:Replay

[coloth]

I want to second these points, and just ask: why does everybody, especially slashdotters focus so much on the Tivo, when ReplayTV is, technically, a superior product?

Its menus and program guide are perhaps a bit more traditional, and it doesn't try to out you unnecessarily (which may titillate some potential users), but ReplayTV has had some of these "new" Tivo features for months if not years.

Is it something aesthetic about the system? Is it the admittedly ingenious name? The remote? Constant references by comics and sitcoms?

Tell me!

I love my ReplayTV 2020 which I bought 3 years ago for $700 (before Tivo was a verb), then swapped in an 80GB drive for $300 20 months ago. My dog ate my first remote, so I got a new one ($40), but this expense has all been richly repaid in great functionality, and I am now a devoted fan.

Re:Replay

[tswinzig]

Replay alrady does this and more

Now compare the prices.

Re:Replay

[RatBastard]

40 hour Tivo: $200.00, plus either $249.00 lifetime startup fee or $12.95 a month fee.

4 hour Replay 4540 or 5040: $300.00, minus $50.00 rebate, plus either $250.00 lifetime fee or $9.95 month fee.

Price diference: $50.00 with the lifetime.
If you go with the monthly fee the Replay matches the Tivo in 17 months and saves you money from that point on.

Re:Replay

[baja]

featuritis? Is broadband conectivity featuritis? I don't think the lawsuit has kept Tivo from having similar features as Replay, I think the lawsuits were basic functions, like recording and using a guide to select what to record. Tivo is playing catch up and Replay is innovating.

Cheaper alternative to TiVo

[Tuxinatorium]

Buy a $50 ATI TV Wonder and record Star Trek and whatnot into 500mb/hr AVIs in realtime. But you need a fast computer. The advantage is you can share them with your friends and burn them to CDs or DVDs. All that for what, the cost of 1 month subscription to TiVo?

Re:Cheaper alternative to TiVo

[Rogerborg]

Yes, we've done the arithmetic. A minimal system costs $100 more than the TiVO, and gives you far less functionality than a dumb (no subscription) TiVO with the single difference that you can archive the files. But with a basic ($100 more than TiVO) setup, the quality will be so bad that you really wouldn't want to.

If you want to argue that you're just paying $50 to put the ATI card into your existing powerful PC then you go ahead and kid yourself, but at least factor in the super-quiet fan you'll need to make it bearable.

Where's Canadian Tivo?!?

[roc_machine]

Geez, I'm getting sick of seeing so many damn Tivo stories on Slashdot... not because I think Tivo is crap, but because I would love to try one of these out, but I can't! The only thing that comes close up here is Bell Satellite with their PVR, which is something like $500-$600 up front I think.

And as many Tivo users have said, it's not the PVR functionality that kicks ass, but the service features such as Season Pass (hey, that rhymes). And from what I've seen the UI is really good. My fiance and I are dying to get one of these.

Damn you, Yankees! Damn you, eh!

Re:Where's Canadian Tivo?!?

[DrJAKing]

Have you looked at the tivocanada yahoo group?

Re:Where's Canadian Tivo?!?

[The Wing Lover]

In case you happen to be using DirecTV, which of course is impossible since DirecTV isn't offered for sale in Canada, and you've bought a TiVo, which of course is impossible since TiVo isn't offered for sale in Canada, you can just hook up the Tivo, tell it your Canadian area code, give a US Zip code that DirecTV services, and it will find a local Canadian number to download the DirecTV guide data from.

Or so I've heard. Because I certainly don't use DirecTV and TiVo up here, no siree.

Re:Where's Canadian Tivo?!?

[undie]

Actually, it's even easier than that. The guide data comes down from the satellite, not over the phone. If you can find a way to make the DirecTivo think it has lifetime service, it just works.

Remote record

[scold]

It should be noted that UltimateTV had the remote record feature over a year ago. Alas, nobody bought it... nobody used it... Man, you guys really hate MS...

DVD Recording Ability

[zeoslap]

My friend recently did some UI testing for Tivo and said that they are integrating a DVD burner into the Tivo, goooo Tivo :)

Re:Uhh...

[troc]

Erm, in my case Yes and erm , Yes :)

But then I have a server in a cupboard together with my TiVo, sat-box, vcr, dvd, amp etc etc, all linked by a lively network of slightly confused cables (not doubt all alike). In the lounge I have a TV, 5 speakers and a sub and a small army or remotes (apparently one of them is an all-in-one learning remote but they won't tell me which) and a remote externder into the cupboard.

Oh yeah, the server has an lcd in the kitchen. And wi-fi etc etc

The point being that this whoie I can do this, I can do that, Your whatever setup sucks is generally a pile of poo as all it takes is a little bit of thought (and a 20m scart cable) and everything will talk to everything.

So I can watch a dvd in the lounge from the dvd player, I can watch a dvd (or other video format) in the lounge or the kicten from the server. I can listen to mp3s all over the place, I can move files on and off my tivo if I really want to. I can admin the tivo from anywhere I find a net connection. I can watch tivo wherever etc.

I've forgotten my point. Damn.

Troc

I bought an UltimateTV

[fearlessrogue]

for 70 bucks thanks to a nice big rebate from sony. The Hard Drive alone is worth that much. Do I feel bad giving money to micro-soft? No Way!!! They are losing lots of money on this venture.

Come to think of it this is the only thing I have ever bought in any way from micro-soft!

Re:YES YOU CAN! But only with a TiVo 1...

[MrLint]

yeah but you cant talk about it at the tivo community forum, you arent even allowed to talk about the policy of not talking about it.

Re:Soo... you're lazy?

[User 956]

Soo... you're lazy?

Fuck yeah I'm lazy. Why should watching TV be work? Isn't it the opiate of the masses?

I don't know about you, but I don't like having to look up information about my opiate's schedule.

HDTV + PVR = ?

[Osty]

Hear hear!

There is a distinct lack of input methods for high definition video signals (or even low-definition, progressive-scan, widescreen signals like ATSC) for PCs, and one can only assume that it's because of DRM issues (firewire, USB2, and even AGP 8x should have more than enough bandwidth even for 1080i high definition streams). I made an attempt at building my own PVR (hey, why not, eh?), but the thing that made me finally give up the ghost on it was when my cable provider finally brought HDTV to my area (okay, so there was the whole overscan issue, and the inability to get a decent 1080i modeline for my video card and TV, but even had I figured out either or both of those, I still would've ended up SOL because I can't take HD video input). I wish I had a PVR, but when it comes down to it, I'll choose the Sopranos in High Definition over the ability to record the Sopranos. Give me both, and I'll happily pay!

I don't know who needs to get their heads out of their asses, but whoever it is, please do so! You've got a very good market of upscale, early adopters willing to spend good money for this kind of service. Capitalize! I'd be all over a TiVO that handled HD signals (1080i preferably, but I'd suffer with 480p) on component inputs (since I get my HD over cable, and not OTA, the HD tuners out there are useless), let me time shift and record, and cost < $1000, and I'm sure many others out there would be as well.

Re:HDTV + PVR = ?

[captaineo]

You are right, there is a distinct lack of recordable consumer-level HDTV interconnects right now. You've got analog component, but nobody seems interested in recording it (plus the MPAA et al probably want it to go away ASAP since it's not encrypted).

The two digital standards are FireWire (IEC 61883-4) and DVI. In the next few years I expect most HDTV tuners and TVs will sprout at least one of these, and analog component will fade away. I have a JVC D-VHS deck with FireWire I/O, and I've successfully captured and played back 1080i ATSC video using a custom Linux utility. This proves it is possible to construct a HDTV PVR...

The big sticking point of course is the copy-prevention business. Currently ATSC broadcasts are not encrypted, and some HDTV tuners can be modified to output the unencrypted signal via FireWire. However, it is likely that all transmission of HDTV video over FireWire will be encrypted in the near future (or there will be a "don't copy" bit embedded in the video, backed by DMCA enforcement). DVI has been scrambled from its beginning as an HDTV transport format. (AFAIK DVI sends uncompressed video, so it's not clear you'd be able to record it even without any encryption)

I've heard rumors that the encryption developers have not learned their lesson and are still using cryptographically weak algorithms. So we might very well a DeCSS-like utility for decrypting HDTV FireWire streams.

24 inches? ha!

[Osty]

Come play with the big boys! Anything less than 46" (16:9, no less) is not worth watching.

OOoo!

[shepd]

So now a super-expensive device can not only do what the old ones did, but also:

- Replicate the basic functionality of a 1992 Kodak PhotoCD player
- Play MP3s like a 3 year old $50 APEX DVD player

All at an additional cost. Hey, who knows, maybe they'll include a Commodore CD-i player for an extra $100 per year?

Wow. Colour me sarcastic^H^H^H^H^H^H impressed. Sorry, wedging in this old tech just isn't going to cut the mustard.

Re:Uhh...

[charlie763]

1. Can your computer play MP3's on your stereo in the living room, which just happens to be hooked up to your TiVo?

Yes. I use a Y-splitter to send the audio output of my computer to my computer speakers as well as my stereo.

2. Can your computer display photos on your big TV in the living room for the entire family to see?

Yes. I use the 'video out' of my video card to send the video signal to my television.

I do both of these things to I can, watch DVDs, have a picture slidshow, listen to music, and sometimes play video games (with the help of a controller).

Having some of these features might be good if one does not have a computer, however, with a computer and some RCA cables one can do all of this for a one time fee of about $30.

Other projects

[brightloudnoise]

I'm currently using Freevo (listed from your freshmeat link) and it's very easy to use.

Re:Other projects

[Kazymyr]

Except that it doesn't do what TiVo does, i.e. it doesn't record TV!

Re:Uhh...

[Grip3n]

1. Can your computer play MP3's on your stereo in the living room, which just happens to be hooked up to your TiVo?

Ever heard of Audio Out?

2. Can your computer display photos on your big TV in the living room for the entire family to see?

Ever heard of Video Out?

So an answer to your question, yes, I can do all of the above. Hey, why mark me as a troll? I'm trying to save you money!

MP3s, cheap TiVO

[PenguinOpus]

I must have gotten lucky. I bought the $99 DirecTiVO, added a $99 120G drive, and then watched DirecTV "take over" the service and reduce the cost to $5/month. Everything about my TiVO experience has been low cost. I'm suprised people aren't interested in the MP3 playing. An ethernet-enabled MP3 player puts my computer's stored music in the living room. Up until now, only the Audiotron and a couple of limited-distribution hacks have been built to do this (at least in the $500 category). PCs in the living room are ugly, loud, and/or have bad user-interface. I have high hopes for TiVOs UI to my MP3s.

Re:Tivo 2 vs the spirit of CopyLeft & HDTV

[mbruns]

There's nothing in the text or spirit of the GPL that says Tivo needs to allow you to port new software to run on the Tivo hardware while you're using the service.

If you don't use the service, you can use the machine for a frisbee for all they care, but if you want to use the service on a day to day basis, you need to run a certain signed version of the kernel.

You're more than welcome to use Tivo's modifications to the kernel in your code, or any other code. That's the spirit of the GPL. Not that Tivo has too allow you to port new code to their architecture.

NPV analysis

[mckwant]

I hate to admit this, but I did an NPV analysis of the various payment schedules. This was back when monthly was $10, lifetime was $200, and (now unavailable) yearly was $100.

The upshot was that monthly was cheaper until month 17-18, and lifetime was cheaper after that. Yearly never made sense. So, if you expect to keep your TiVo longer than 18 months, which plan to get is pretty clear.

It's been pointed out that I should've included an end value for the lifetime subscription. I didn't, but that would just make the expected usefulness of the monthly plan even shorter.

I haven't re-run the numbers for the new pricing scheme, but I expect they'd be similar.

Re:NPV analysis

[Zathrus]

Well, I suspect you left out the value of the lifetime sub in your analysis.

If you have a TiVo w/ lifetime then your $250 is, essentially, recoverable. Unless the unit has a massive failure (as in, the MB fries itself) then if you sell the TiVo you can get your money back out.

If you're paying monthly then it's money down the drain -- you've paid for it but won't get it back in any manner.

As it happens, I paid $200 for lifetime, but I'll get $250 back if I ever sell my TiVo. Not bad!

This, of course, assumes that TiVo continues indefinitely (if they go under then the lifetime sub is worthless), and that the hardware doesn't have a serious failure for a long, long time.

Rendezvous

[mbbac]

Does anyone know if they're going to be using Rendezvous for the MP3 and photo viewing features? If so, that's another reason for me to possibly get cable and a Tivo.

A dim bulb brightens

[bconway]

There will be revenue associated with these items.

Well I'm glad we got over THAT hurdle. Perhaps the next step will be making a profit? ;-)

Lazy! Of course! Thats what PVRs are for. Duh??

[Viewsonic]

Who the hell wants to run cables and set up software on their PC to their home theater system 2 floors away? Not I. The PCs versions of Tivo are just kludges and you know it, so quit bringing it up. Buy your Tivo and be done with it.

Boring

[uradu]

TiVo have had years to come up with interesting new features, and this is it? They've done NOTHING remotely interesting since the original product. You can't even officially expand storage, even though that could be a huge cash cow for them. I want to buy a second unit for the entertainment room and be able to watch shows recorded on the living room unit, and vice versa, but I can't. Owning two units simply doesn't add any interesting capabilities at all. Replay offers these kinds of features, plus their monthly fee is only $10, so with two units I'd save $6 a month. I'm seriously considering selling my Series 1 SA and getting two Replay units.

> I'm glad for anything that would keep Tivo afloat.

These kinds of statements are getting so old that they start to irritate and anger. TiVo apologists are like Mac fanatics: they extoll the virtues of one closed and compulsively controlling vendor over others just because the look of their products gives them warm fuzzy feelings. TiVo is much more interested in cozying up to the entertainment industry than in pleasing its customers, and if you are willing to accept that because it will "help them survive," you're beyond help. TiVo's brown-nosing hasn't stopped Hollywood in any shape or form from slamming PVRs at every opportunity and trying every which way to influence politicians to stop this "menace." Sleeping with the enemy doesn't help you survive, it just helps them gain insight into how to beat you.

Re:Boring

[diablochicken]

Replay offers these kinds of features, plus their monthly fee is only $10, so with two units I'd save $6 a month.

And if you owned 429 units, you'd save $1,287 a month. Wow! Now that's value.

Why support Tivo?

[g4dget]

but I'm glad for anything that would keep Tivo afloat.

Why? Is there any indication that other companies can't provide the same service just as well and possibly more cheaply?

I, for one, am rather disappointed that a couple of companies have tried to build patent fences around DVRs for what are pretty simple ideas that had been "in the air" for many years. Tivo's bankruptcy wouldn't necessarily free those patents, but at least it would demonstrate again that patent landgrabs don't assure commercial success.

I think this support for Tivo is similar to the support for Microsoft: people are saw awed by a product or feature that they don't stop to ask the question: how well could others do in this market if they had the chance?

Slow to come

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm underwhelmed by these new features. And it took them a year go get them out.

I have the original TiVo and I don't feel at all compelled to get the new one.

The only thing my box was missing was a huge hard drive. I solved that. :-)

Re:Uhh...

[tswinzig]

So an answer to your question, yes, I can do all of the above.

First of all I didn't say you couldn't. My point was there is definitely a market for a device that does this. Hell, I bought a Slimp3, which is basically the same thing without the ability to view photos on the TV, and it cost $250, and it was worth it!

Yes, you could run cables all the way from your PC to your stereo/tv, but with this TiVo device it makes it easy to control the listening/viewing from the comfort of your living room. Those A/V cables you're using, you have to operate everything through your computer. Not very user friendly.

A TiVo is a luxury item, why bash it for the fee?

[Jack_Frost]

TiVo is, in my humble opinion as a TiVo user, the best thing that's happened to TV. Posters who complain about the fee, saying that the same services can be had for free simply don't get it. It's a luxury item, my monthly fee pays for a service that I find highly valuable, and for $15 a month it's well worth it.

If you're interested in assembling your own computer PVR that's great, go ahead. But for me, and tons of other TiVo users, the value of TiVo can't be beat. The time it would take to cobble together and support a home-rolled box is non-trivial and personally, my time is worth more than the paltry fee I pay each month.

It's just like any other luxury item or service. I drive a sports-lux sedan because I value the extra pleasure I derive from driving it. If you don't want to drive a sports sedan that's fine, but your preference doesn't invalidate the choice for the rest of us that are willing to pay for it.

Re:Again, back to the basics

[fantastic]

Some people work on their own cars too but the large
population just take it to the shop

tivo is the best solution for them, tv on the pc is only for single person households with a *spare* machine that doesn't get virii, random slow downs, etc

Upgrade just to pay more?

[Indomitus]

So I have to upgrade to a new, more expensive, Tivo2 just to have the ability to pay an extra fee to get the new functionality? Nevermind if you think this new ability to do MP3s and pictures is valuable, you have to pay extra for it, on top of paying for the new Tivo? I think I'll just spend a hundred on a new giant harddrive and upgrade my current Tivo.

Mandingo!

[nightsweat]

Ogg, that is. I mean, come on, is this slashdot? I want ogg support in the new TiVO, not just mp3.

DirecTV Tivo: $5/month

[lophophore]

DirecTV only charges $5 a month for the TiVo fee. And it's billed on their bill. Makes it really simple.

The PVR I wish Apple would build

[JimRay]

This is starting to sound like a really nice entertainment box, one that I would finally consider buying. Still not enough, though. Here's what I want, and I want Apple to build it.

A box with a removable (40/60/80) gig firewire hard drive. Do the normal PVR stuff. Plays some mp3's, pictures, etc. Whatever. Make the Hard drive removable, though, so that when I record a show I like, I can plug it into my mac and burn to DVD, using a plugin to iMovie.

Maybe add some kinda 802.11 networking thingie so that I can transfer small files (mp3's, jpegs) wirelessly and I'm happy. Make it Rendezvous/zeroconf aware so that I don't have to fiddle with network settings on my teevee. Rather than have to plug the thing into a phone line, have it talk to my mac and get updates via my mac's internet connection. If I'm a dialup user, have it update the info whenever I'm connected.

Why Apple? Duh. iTunes. iMovie. iDVD. iPhoto. This device is screaming to be integrated with Apple's digital hub. Wanna show your family vacation pictures? Build a slideshow in iPhoto, upload the quicktime mov to the iBox and watch it on your teevee. Wanna listen that great mix of your favorite 50 mp3's or build a killer party sound track to play on your stereo? No problem, just upload the setlist. It could even stream the mp3's using iTunes powered Rendezvous.

Build in some intelligent DRM that doesn't restrict fair use but also doesn't turn Joe Sixpack into his own Sopranos pirating station. Disable internet file sharing of recorded shows (ugh) or delete the file once it's been burned to DVD.

This is a device I would buy. I would watch teevee with this thing. I would buy more CD's. I want it--now.

TiVo DOES have USB2 ports

[Controlio]

Yes indeed, TiVo comes with USB2 ports. It's true, the original Series2 units (AT&T TiVo, real early Series2 units) only came with USB1.1. However, TiVo released a new hardware stepping that fixed a few complaints people had (bad reception on a few channels on the internal tuner, etc) - and one of the new features added in this minor hardware revision: USB2.

The new hardware revision has been on the market for months. It was a silent revision, there is some minor change in the S/N to distinguish the units, but I don't have that information in front of me. Regardless, the fact still remains, that yes, TiVo has USB2.

Re:Upgrade for us?

[Kazymyr]

As it has been stated in the TiVo Coffee House forum by TiVo employees, there will be no upgrade for the Series 1 hardware.

Re:The horror, the horror

[uradu]

> but why would a man ever do it?

It's a compromise thing. There are joys in the here and now, but it's also a long-term investment into not dying a lone bastard. I've seen too many wretched souls awaiting the end of their days in some retirement home/death asylum without anyone ever coming to see them, and the thought of that terrifies me personally.

WebVCR+

[PyromanFO]

And you can remotely program your computer with WebVCR+ Yes this is a blatant self-plug, and I should be ashamed.

Re:YES YOU CAN! But only with a TiVo 1...

[ncc74656]

yeah but you cant talk about it at the tivo community forum, you arent even allowed to talk about the policy of not talking about it.

There are plenty of mailing lists (and a newsgroup, too) that cover those topics. They're more usable than most web fora anyway.

Re:Tivo 2 vs the spirit of CopyLeft & HDTV

[Sloppy]

I'm a little confused, maybe you can help clear this up.

He says that a custom kernel won't run on that hardware.

You imply that a custom kernel does run on that hardware, and the machine will work fine, but that the Tivo service refuses to talk to a box running an unsigned kernel. Is that correct?

Re:Thinking about Tivo? Look at ReplayTV

[/dev/trash]

Can you explain the IR blaster thing? Does it take input from the Replay remote and send the signal to the DISH reciever, without hooking anything up to the DISH reciever? if so, this is what I am looking for. The built in ethernet and VCD capability seals it for me.

"Lifetime" membership is NOT

[sacrilicious]

if you had bought the lifetime service, you would have already saved over $100 in monthly fees, and pay nothing else going forward.

This is the perfect opportunity to note that Tivo's "lifetime membership" is NOT the payer's lifetime but the tivo unit's lifetime... which means that when your tivo unit stops working and you have to buy a new one, you have to pay the "lifetime" membership fee AGAIN.

In my opinion, this amounts to one of the sleaziest, most misleading abuses of market-speak that I have ever encountered.

.

Re:Why Tivo?

[coloth]

Thanks for pointing me to that site. I've read a bit of it, and it didn't mention much about unexpected non-records on the ReplayTV, except if a program changes its time schedule significantly (which Survivor never has done).

Anyway, I am a ReplayTV partisan. Why? Because since November of 1999, I have never been disappointed in any way by my machine!

Now, I have never tried a Tivo, so maybe there is something I'm missing. But my ReplayTV has never skipped a show, I can search for shows easily, timeshifting and zipping back and forth is a no-brainer, the picture is great, it has a large enough hacking community that there are solutions for expansion and tweaking, and on and on.

Even some of the limitations mentioned in the comparison site I know to be false, even for my machine which is over three years old.

So, again, thank you for the resource, but I'm a demanding user, and I'm impressed that an early-model machine has satisfied me for over three years.

Tivo "lifetime" memberships end with the unit

[sacrilicious]

1) The monthly fee is a financed $250 payment. Anyone with basic math knowledge will pay the lifetime fee and be done with it. (a used replay or tivo with lifetime subscription sells for about $250 more than one without). A tivo or replay costs $500 new, give or take 50.

Keep in mind that Tivo's so-called lifetime fee only covers the lifetime of the unit; when the unit needs replacing, so does your lifetime membership. How long will your tivo last?

.

Re:Tivo "lifetime" memberships end with the unit

[JofCoRe]

Keep in mind that Tivo's so-called lifetime fee only covers the lifetime of the unit; when the unit needs replacing, so does your lifetime membership. How long will your tivo last?

Exactly. So far my Hughes DirecTivo units seem to last about 2-3 months before crapping out. I'm on my third unit so far... no telling how long this one will last :) With hardware quality like that, I'll happily pay the monthly fee... especially since it's been reduced to 4.99/mo for directivo users.

(moral of the story: don't buy Hughes equipment, it blows. And when it does fail, you'll wait up to 6+ months for a replacment... that's right, I've had my DirecTiVo for almost a year now, and I've had it up and working for maybe 4 months of that time. But when it does work.... oh, it's so nice. So, tivo = good, hughes = bad :)

Re:Tivo "lifetime" memberships end with the unit

[seaan]

Tivo's so-called lifetime fee only covers the lifetime of the unit

They will transfer the service, if your unit is broken and fixed by Tivo (at least for Tivo brand units, I don't know how other mfg. handle this). Pretty good, although that does not help with obsolescence.

Actually the biggest problem is that Tivo might change that agreement sometime in the future. There are a number of other changes that Tivo "might" do -- like removing "features" or adding new unwanted ones. Welcome to the modern world where slip-stream updates and constantly changing policies are the norm.

The biggest problem with a "lifetime" fee, is that you can't cost Tivo by canceling your service in protest of some policy or feature change.

Re:Tivo "lifetime" memberships end with the unit

[galaxy300]

Just to add another anectode to this thread:

My landlord and I both bought DirecTivo at the same time, from Hughes. Theirs worked for a week, then crapped out. They had to wait for a month to get a new one. So far, so good with that one.

Mine, on the other hand, has been hacked to death. Extra 80GB hard drive (an IBM Deskstar, no less -- how's that for tempting fate?), lots of other warranty voiding type activity, and no problems yet, for over a year.

Knock on wood...

Why are you getting ripped off?

[ryeh]

I got my Tivo for free and only pay $5/month for service. Deals are easy to find on the web, there are desperate equipment sellers out there that want to unload their stuff in the worst way all the time.

Replay has the best technology, what's going on?

[baja]

OK, Tivo leaked some new features, but hasn't SonicBlue had most of those for over a year. I have had a DVR for almost 2 years, but it lacks some of the cool features Replay has had for a long time. I should have purchased a Replay last year. I want a Replay now, because it really can skip commercials (a friend has one), I won't have to fast forward through them like I do now. Replay came out with an Ethernet compatible network unit in 2001. They are the technology leader, Tivo is playing catch up. What is wrong with this picture? Replay is clearly a better product, costs less, has been around as long as Tivo (has the main patents), but they don't have a cult. This is nothing like the Mac cult, the Mac has always been the technology leaded and they are still more expensive. Tivo is well behind the technology leader and more expensive. Is it the early branding that they established using TV commercials all that's carrying them? What's up here?

Re:YES YOU CAN! But only with a TiVo 1...

[ebh]

IMO, this is a Good Thing. The TiVo Community Forum asks that things that will a) cost TiVo significant revenue or b) Open TiVo up to legal exposure not be discussed there. In return, they provide de facto support for all other kinds of hacking. Good luck finding that for any other piece of consumer electronics.

OTOH, as the above links show, information about the Other Stuff (like saving shows to CD) is easily available.

Sounds like the best of both worlds to me.

Oops!

[RatBastard]

Um, that should be "40 hour Replay". Sorry about that. A 4-hour PVR would be useless!

Re:Why Tivo?

[coloth]

The one that I remember most clearly is this:

If you have set a show to record repeatedly, and have some number of episodes stored (1-99), the comparison doc says there is no way to stop recording the show while also preserving the episodes already recorded.

It says the only way to do this is to use the "Preserve" function on each episode (which makes a copy of that episode), then delete the original show (which will delete the original set of episodes). It further says that this will not work if your drive is close to full, which is true.

Now, I will admit that the best solution to this problem does require a small insight which, from a usability point of view should be considered unacceptable. (i.e. the first time I was faced with this dilemma, it took me a few minutes to hit upon the solution) However, it isn't that bad once you figure it out:

For every repeating record, the machine will automatically record that show on any day of the week where it shows up in that time slot. However, you can uncheck any day, and that day will be skipped. If you uncheck all the days, it won't record at all. So, that show will basically be frozen with all the episodes that it already contains.

So, the solution is to uncheck seven checkboxes. That is not particularly discoverable, but once discovered, it is quick and effective.

That's my musty tome on the grave injustice done by that comparison doc. Honestly, having not used a Tivo, I feel awkward even comparing to it, but my experience has been so good, I can't imagine how it could be much better!

Re:Replay has the best technology, what's going on

[Ransom342]

I just bought a replaytv 5040 for $199 after rebate and a $10 monthly.

Its great. It updates via my network connection. It has a picture viewer. I guarantee that if Tivo adds MP3 playback then sonic blue will follow suit (most likely with a free software upgrade).

or Qcast for PS2

[Jasn]

Or get a PlayStation 2 and Qcast Tuner software for $50 (one-time) from BroadQ. Total cost $250, if you don't already have a PS2. I suppose that TiVo might have an interface advantage depending on how they implement it, compared to loading a disc in the PS2. But then the TiVo won't do digital video as well as photos and .mp3 -- the Qcast Tuner will.

Re:Replay has the best technology, what's going on

[baja]

Replays updates are live now, with a broadband connection. I think Replay can do remote set up as well. Replay does have the the same feature as season pass. Is everyone brainwashed or what? What exactly does Tivo have that Raplay doesn't. IMHO Replay is the best box available today and appears to be better than the next generation of Tivo too.

Re:Why Tivo?

[coloth]

Ick. You've got to be kidding.

No, I'm not kidding. I feel a little like I did in the early 80's, when I loved my Apple ][, but all these Commodore 64 fans would squinch up their noses at the Apple's graphics and sound. I couldn't really defend it, but I knew I was so much better off with that machine than I'd been without it that I felt a great loyalty to it.

Polish and user-friendliness, I think, matter much more to some people than others. To some, it is pure functionality that matters most. Usually, people settle for a compromise.

About the lock-ups, that is true. I would say maybe once every three to four months, for some reason, the thing stops responding to the remote and you have to pull out the power cord to reboot it. People are going to respond in different ways to this. As a developer, I can understand a flaw like that, and it's never been anything but a minor inconvenience. However, I also keep in mind that I'm using one of their first models, and they stopped doing firmware upgrades to it over a year ago. Maybe I'd be more upset if it were a newer model.

About recording at ~3AM, I don't know. That's about when it would call to update its guide. I've never tried to record something then, and I'd be pretty upset if it weren't smart enough to postpone the call (which can be done manually if you happen to be watching at that time).

All in all, I don't know if I'd say the Tivo is "infinitely" more polished, but it has always struck me as more polished and somewhat experimental in its UI, which I think is good. However, you might say that the 2003 Corvette is more polished than the 1953 Corvette, but as far as utility and style, both are way beyond a Model T (which might represent a VCR).

Anyway, what I'm getting down to is that I can't see much of a reason for you to switch camps now, just as I don't feel there's much reason to switch camps either. Cnet's reviews of the two lines are almost neck and neck.

I think Tivo has benefitted from better marketing, and a much better name. It has also benefitted from its quirky recommendation system which has been featured in sitcoms. In everything I've read, the ReplayTV has better image quality and has innovated in some important areas such as networking and commercial skipping.

What I still don't understand is why, among the most technically savvy, there is such a huge imbalance in support, when a site like Cnet rates them almost equal.

Re:Why Tivo?

[coloth]

Maybe, but I've used a ReplayTV 2020 for over 3 years, consider myself "technically savvy", and am happy.

Maybe I'm too tolerant of minor flaws. Maybe I have an irrational commitment to an underdog platform. Maybe I'm beset by cognitive dissonance because to abandon ReplayTV is to admit I was wrong. Maybe I'm just happy enough with them for my own purposes and choose to support them because I value competition. Maybe I've made an emotional investment and feel certain the ReplayTV engineers will be able to justify my support. Maybe I feel ReplayTV is being condemned by the technical community for early problems which have long since been corrected.

From my point of view, Tivo dominates the discourse of the techical community at a rate of near 95%--maybe more. I simply don't believe it is that much better, and that everybody is way too starstruck and unadventurous, and the result is going to be another monopoly!

Don't blame me when it happens!

Thanks a bunch, JERK!!!

[4mn0t1337]

Now I know why my damn cable company keeps adding all of those freakin' shopping channels to its line-up all the time, wasting my time removing and moving channels around!

Why can't you leave it tuned to something interesting -- like porn.

:P

ReplayTV already has these features...

[rtechie]

You mean that the Tivo 2 will possibly have the same features sometime in the future that the ReplayTV 5000 and 4000 series ALREADY has?

I'm underwhelmed. No broadband. No sharing. No commercial skip.

Last Post!

[alpg]

I suggest you locate your hot tub outside your house, so it won't do too
much damage if it catches fire or explodes. First you decide which
direction your hot tub should face for maximum solar energy. After much
trial and error, I have found that the best direction for a hot tub to face
is up.
-- Dave Barry, "The Taming of the Screw"

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