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Infinite Games?
Anonymous Coward writes "BBC is running a story on how US scientists are working on improving AI - with potential benefits for coming games.
The system, called Liquid Narrative allows to avoid scripted storylines, and finally gives us, the gamers, full freedom to do whatever we want to do. R. Michael Young, the project coordinator, says:
'Game companies are realising that story telling has a lot of potential that has not been tapped yet.'"
When technological innovation was driven by war and/or exploration? Now, it's driven by games.
if it works... :) Go AI
I have stacks of games sitting around the house, for anything ranging from Nintendo up to the PSOne, that I dont' play anymore due to the lack of depth. It sounds like this might be the solution we've been waiting for. Granted, I'll still have to go and buy new games to use this technology, but at least I won't be able to play them all the way through 3 or 4 times and be completely bored by them
... and skynet was born!
Anyone remember Trade Wars 2002?
Or Legend of the Red Dragon?
I used to think those went on forever!
Computer scientists drooled like curs at true AI twenty or thirty years ago, but that was before people had run out of ideas pertaining to AI. Today the only problems AI can solve are uninteresting ones.
In the case of a game, I'd call it "automatic choosing of next state" rather than any form of "intelligence".
But what do I know. I'm just looking for anonymous gay sex.
I hadn't realized that research into AI continued. I thought it was pretty much abandoned in favor of statistical methods in the late 80's. But if all goes well, we all stand to benefit.
It's a little short sighted to talk about the application to games. Since when have games pushed innovation? Rather, I'm looking forward to intelligent machines like coffee makers that know how to make good coffee and record players that can mix tracks and perform scratches without a human DJ.
Artificial Intelligence need not be feared, if we use it wisely and with caution. It could save our people, if we only have the courage to take it.
Boromir, son of Faramir, King of Gondor and Minas Tirith
Say it ain't so! What happened? Did someone actually play a game that existed before the 3D X-TREME era and realize that games with story and gameplay emphasised over flashy graphics, T&A, and worn out franshises can be actually be good?
Quick, someone call Sony and tell them they're fucked!.
Finally computer game story lines are catching up with pen-and-paper RPGs.
Now if the graphics and audio could only improve on my imagination...
Unfortunately, I am not Wil Wheaton
Here is the main blurb from *About mimesis and interactive narrative* Interactive narrative is story-telling for purposes of education, training, or entertainment in which a user interacts with a computer system to experience a story as an active participant. In systems that implement this type of interaction, the user is typically immersed in a 3D graphical environment in which a narrative - a structured sequence of events, often referred to as a story - unfolds. Unlike conventional narrative media such as the film or novel, the user takes on the role of a character in the unfolding story and is allowed (or encouraged) to perform actions that substantively change the world in which the story is being played out. There are two important aspects of any interactive narrative system. The first is the ability to create descriptions of compelling and novel action sequences that will be used to drive the plot experienced by the system's user. In contrast to convention game titles, interactive narrative systems should create their storylines at run time, allowing customization that takes into account a user's ability, interests, previous experience and other contextual factors. Second, an interactive narrative system must be able to effectively manage the run-time dynamics of the user's interaction, balancing the user's control over the environment with the need to preserve the coherence of the unfolding storyline. The Mimesis system defines an architecture for building intelligent interactive narrative worlds. The goal in developing Mimesis is to build a system capable of creating structured interaction within virtual worlds that achieve the same kind of cognitive and affective responses to interactive stories as that seen in the participants of conventional narrative media. The approach taken in the design of the Mimesis architecture is to exploit a well-founded, declarative model of action and intention, in combination with new computational models of narrative structure. The links below will take you to pages that discuss Mimesis system, its architecture, its applications, and how it can be used to generate and intelligently control the narrative process.
... The Mimesis Project might be interesting as well. Apparently, they are using Unreal Tournament as a test-bed for the AI discussed in the article.
:-)
But I'm still at a loss why they chose UT, of all games, as a "story-telling" AI test-bed.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
This technology sounds like adaptation to certain, shall we say, "naughtier" activities than gaming could be a possibility. ;)
They simulated a visit to the Monterey Aquarium, why not simulate, say, a visit to a secluded hamlet in Soviet Russia with Natalie Portman? Sign me up.
Even the best RPGs I've played for the PC have always felt scripted to me. You're limited in the actions you can take or the things you can say. I suppose this is a constraint of dealing with computers. . . but it's also why old-fashioned pencil-and-paper RPGs are still my favorite. You can come up with something the GM/Storyteller never thought of, pull off your idea, and see the results. Most computer RPGs stifle you at step 2.
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
This concept sounds very much like what you have been able to get for the last 15-20 years in a mutiplayer MU* evironment. The main difference (besides a MU* being text-only), is you wouldn't need multiple players anymore.
I'm still waiting to see a good implementation of a graphical, multiplayer MU*. The MMORPs are the closest so far, but when will we see a massive, multiplayer, 1st person world, where there is no specific storyline, but rather just an environment for role playing and personal interaction with the qualities of the Unreal2 or DOOM3 engine?
-Lokatana
*About mimesis and interactive narrative*
Interactive narrative is story-telling for purposes of education, training, or entertainment in which a user interacts with a computer system to experience a story as an active participant.
In systems that implement this type of interaction, the user is typically immersed in a 3D graphical environment in which a narrative - a structured sequence of events, often referred to as a story - unfolds. Unlike conventional narrative media such as the film or novel, the user takes on the role of a character in the unfolding story and is allowed (or encouraged) to perform actions that substantively change the world in which the story is being played out.
There are two important aspects of any interactive narrative system. The first is the ability to create descriptions of compelling and novel action sequences that will be used to drive the plot experienced by the system's user. In contrast to convention game titles, interactive narrative systems should create their storylines at run time, allowing customization that takes into account a user's ability, interests, previous experience and other contextual factors. Second, an interactive narrative system must be able to effectively manage the run-time dynamics of the user's interaction, balancing the user's control over the environment with the need to preserve the coherence of the unfolding storyline.
The Mimesis system defines an architecture for building intelligent interactive narrative worlds. The goal in developing Mimesis is to build a system capable of creating structured interaction within virtual worlds that achieve the same kind of cognitive and affective responses to interactive stories as that seen in the participants of conventional narrative media. The approach taken in the design of the Mimesis architecture is to exploit a well-founded, declarative model of action and intention, in combination with new computational models of narrative structure. The links below will take you to pages that discuss Mimesis system, its architecture, its applications, and how it can be used to generate and intelligently control the narrative process.
So what will you do when you are stuck at the Giant's Drink?
I have been playing Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind since December 31, 2002 and I still can't put it down. It is really neat to have this gigantc scenario to explore and there's always many things around to do that have nothing to do with the main quest. I am positive that after a whole month playing that game I have yet to uncover 25% of the map.
If these people could expand on this concept and come up with a Morrowind model that spans across a few continents instead of one, and with maybe 3-5 main quests that are dynamically generated then it would take months to finish it. The problem is that if it takes so long to finish one game, people will buy less games. Same thing as building a car that runs like new for 10 years. The car company wants you to buy a new car every 5.
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
Ok, who wants to bet that the first commerical application of this technology will be an interactive, pr0n dvd?
Ed Wedig
Graphic design services
docbrown.net
...there's a very interesting game out there called AISLE. It's interactive fiction, and, while you only get one move per game, you can do pretty much anything that you want in that one move. While it certainly isn't infinitely playable, there's feedback for many inputs that you'd never expect.
-R
gives us, the gamers, full freedom to do whatever we want to do - You mean running about a building fraggin as amny people as possible?
If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
Game companies are realising that story telling has a lot of potential that has not been tapped yet.
Infocom realized that years ago. Went great for a while until the unwashed masses had to have the latest and greatest graphics for a game to make any money.
Not that I wouldn't mind a 3D FPA of some of those classics, but then again I have certain images of my own from them that I don't want replaced by some artist's view of the same thing.
The IF contests every year release some good stuff, but not much.
I have always wondered what the main difference between computer gaming and Pen and Paper gaming. The difference is the assumed rules. If we can set up a universe that has a really good predefined set of rules, like "if (breathing) then alive" etc, then we could put together a real universe.
I remember experimenting with Prolog which is not a set functional language but a rules-based language. By constantly checking the rules you can generate new rules and build a universe (genetically, nuerally).
Our minds are rule based, while our problem solving is sequential. This is the difference and I am glad these people are working on it.
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
haven't seen a GOOD story line since FFIII on Snes
It sounds like the sort of thing Cyc would be useful for, in terms of common sense understanding of the effects actions have on the plots
There could be a major negative aspect of improving IA. It could be possible that people find it more easy to socialize with IA instead with real humans. Who need friends when they can get a perfectpartner3000?
There is value in basic research, unfortunately very few people in power believe it's worth and are constantly cutting research budgets.
Are you kidding me? Do you think that 2ghz CPU, $400 dollar video card and 64 channel sound card are there because of the advance of the spreadsheet? Innovation in computer hardware has been driven forward immensely due to games.
By developing this, wouldn't the game developers be shooting themselves in the foot? If the game industry is dependant on people buying newer and better games (and keeping the money flowing into their pockets), by developing a game that is "infinite" (different every time, with no end), wouldn't people just buy that one game, and stop buying others?
Ed Wedig
Graphic design services
docbrown.net
A good few years ago, I wrote an MA Thesis on videogame culture. One of the areas that I looked at was the striving towards psychological mastery in videogames through a striving for the end - telos. In psychological terms, videogames insert "the subject into a narrative in which she or he sees herself or himself projected as the hero and potential master" (Peter Buse, 'Nintendo and Telos: Will You Ever Reach the End?' Cultural Critique 34 (1996) 163-84 (p.169))
The ideas that Liquid Narrative are developing - realtime self-evolving narrative strands, reactive storytelling etc, seem to play interestingly into this notion of psychic development.
However, one question I ask is: do games need narrative at all? Games are about play - we are all home ludens. Do basketball games need narrative? The most interesting, successful and universally appealing games are those such as Tetris, where there is no end, but no story to get there either.
Terminator 3 is set to be released July 2, 2003.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
If the game changes as we play it, well, a combination of actions or a way to play it could make it trivial (or impossible).
I suppose that very much of the strength of the AI is to avoid this kind of things.
I'm joking. I'm not a big gaming person, mostly because I suck at FPS-stuff. I do, however, think that Myst/Riven/Exile/whatever-Mudpie-is-called-now pretty much hit this one on the head. The problem they mention in the article, of infinite storylines, isn't really addressed by the gaming people they interviewed -- the balance has to be between one person or group's 'vision', or telling a story, and the player's receptivity to listen to that storyline. In Deus Ex, the Ion Storm Austin people decided to limit the narrative possibilities around a set two or three paths, and only in the final parts of the game.
OK, so you make a 'game universe' : how is this any different from the mmo games now around?
I'd think this would be more useful to people wanting to develop interactive environment simulations, rather than straight-ahead games : the aquarium as a metaphor probably works between than the FPS idea.
Or maybe I'll just read a book instead.
========================================
Death will come, and will have your eyes
-- Pavese
The research sounds great for virtual environments or military-type training scenarios, but I've never thought complete player freedom or dramatic goal/mission/outcome adjusting based on player actions a good thing. A good game has goals and skill challenges that a player needs to achieve and attain. And a good game is not a story except in a very loose use of the term.
Ender's Game reference
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
"Ok, I turn and walk out the door."
"You start to walk out the door, but the door is locked."
"Damnit. ok. sense."
"You successfully sense something strange."
"You said that there was a spooky looking chest in the room right?"
"Yup."
" Detect trap"
"The whole room detects as a trap."
"What do you mean the whole room detects as a trap?!"
People do not want to make their own stories. They want superior stories written by people who are better writers than they are.
This won't work.
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
Game companies are realising that story telling has a lot of potential that has not been tapped yet.
No Shit, Sherlock!
That is why WC3 and NWN sell so well, not only do they have a good story, but people can actually make up new storylines and then redistribute them.
There is nothing wrong with being gay. It's getting caught where the trouble lies.
Imagine a beowulf cluster of virtual, everchanging mead halls
but it's already been done. Duke Nukem Forever has that. The story always changes. You never know what to expect, other than there is never an end to the game (or a beginning for that matter!)
They would just switch to the M$ model. Release a new version, charge $300 and make it entirely incompatible with old versions, force people to upgrade of become obsolete.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Why bother.
If an infinite number of monkeys sat down and played an infinite number of games, could they take an infinite number of different storylines?
Of course then are the more important questions like:
Would you have to have an infinite number of monkey feeders to feed the infinite number of monkeys and would they care about playing games with an infinite number of different storylines?
If an infinite number of monkeys had to play an infinite number of games would they really have the "full freedom to do whatever" and if they did wouldn't they stop playing games and go out on a date?
If the infinite number of monkeys were always playing an infinite number of games, how would they be able to procreate and wouldn't that lead the the demise of the infinite number of monkeys making the whole study useless?
Brought to you by Monkeys for Infinite Games (MIG)
The Japanese style of RPG (e.g. the Final Fantasy series) treats role-playing in an entirely different way. Rather than creating your own character and playing out that role, you play the role of a predetermined character. For such games, scripted stories are very important. The whole point of the game is really to enjoy the story. Japanese RPGs boil down to basically being interactive stories.
As you say, improved AI and non-scripted stories will advance the Western style of role-playing game. However, I don't think it'll they'll have much of an impact on the traditional Japanese story-driven RPGs.
-Stephen
You got it in one. In Ender's game, the people in charge of the school tried to train students using games which pulled images from their subconscious and made them confront their deepest fears/psychological limitations etc in a fantasy environment.
In the story, the game was designed to bring out certain features of Ender's personality which he didn't want to accept (specifically that he could be a stone cold killer under the right conditions).
One of the sub themes of the story is that when humans are trying to guide and shape you they have moral dilemmas about whether they are going to harm you, when it is a machine that is training you it may not know how to care.
This is absolutely horrible, people should not be allowed to abandon the safe constrainsts of a prescripted story, think of the horror. Every game created now whether it be for the youngest of children or the most asocial teen will be a murder simulator.
The preceeding was in jest. But seriously, that could happen. I think this is one of those innovations that might be a bit more useful if it was delayed until law makers were foreced to become more informed on the subject.
Does this remind anyone else of the game in Ender's Game that was supposed to keep the genius kids occupied during their downtime?
There are four boxes used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order.
When technological innovation was driven by war and/or exploration? Now, it's driven by games.
You mean MUDs? They're still around, and they're about as infinite as you can get. AI is fine, but socializing, working together with and developing a deep hatred for pthieves is far more motivating. I haven't mudded in a couple years, but when I looked at the cumulative hours I spent on muds, I wondered where the time went.
Now, what the game industry wants is a way to make money off that and that's what stuff like Everquest is doing. Stories just get in the way of 'play'.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Here's a handy scam:
* Offer a DNS-based blacklist service
* List people according to your whim
* Charge people USD$1000 to be removed from the blacklist
* Profit!
Of course, nobody has to use the BlarsBL. And nobody should. If you're considering using the BlarsBL, please consider the manner in which hosts are added to the blacklist, and the manner in which they are removed, and decide for yourself if it is a reasonable system.
What about Bards Tale Three. That took some time.
Gotta love a game where you start out nakkid in the woods (practically) and end up a God.
Of course it took me three months be beat Kid Icarus (I suck, OK) so YMMV.
--Jimmy has fancy plans; and pants to match.
Honestly, AI can only get you so far. If you truely want an infinite game, you need a MMORPG where everyone plays the part (not some 1337 d00d trying to PK j00!). AI can't compete with the human mind (at least, not at this time).
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Is this what the makers of Doom have been waiting for?
Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
I love Morrowind as well, but like many CRPG fans, I have a second love too: Neverwinter Nights.
I think Morrowind got the "engine" right, so to speak, in making it first person, the character traits, advancement, alchemy, etc.
Where I think they messed up, though, is in extensibility.
That's where Neverwinter Nights shines, in my mind. I can always download a new module someone made, and it's a new story, with new characters, and feels immersive (if it's a good one, and there are many of those).
You're right in that what Morrowind needs to be is infinitely extensible. But I think the best way to do that is in the way NWN does, by putting an extreme amount of power to extend in the hands of players, by making module construction tools that are easy to use and still flexible. You're right that if Morrowind was even bigger, people wouldn't buy the game. But what people would by are tools to expand it themselves: monster packs, etc. etc. etc. Think about it: isn't that how pencil and paper RPG make money? They don't make it on the core ruleset, and they don't give you one massive set of materials--they just make a massive variety of materials available for you to use if you choose.
I've been amazed at how fun Morrowind and NWN are, but also at how they both completely have what the other lacks. Bioware and Bethesda should get together and talk sometime.
So right now, some people are a bit squeamish about a game like GTA:VC, because of how it sort of encourages killing lots of innocent virtual people.
But I don't think people are worried about killing the "AIs" for their own sake--the civillians are dumber than ants--but because they remind us of "real humans", and we don't want people to become casual about the lives of those.
But what if AI advances to the point where the enemy in the game is effectively self-aware? Works to defend its self-interest, understands the situation and its place in that, has an idea of the motivation of the human player and other ingame entities, etc etc....it's a long way off, but should we ever feel bad about killing 'em?
And if not, why not? Does the fact that these virtual people are likely to be trivially duplicatable inherently diminish their value as entities? (And if so, if someone could make a perfect copy of you right now, would you be more willing to get killed?)
(I think all these thought experiments are interesting, though less so if consciousness (as we commonly think of it) ends up being more or less the "benign user illusion" some materialist philosophers describe it as. But if we take that full viewpoint, we need new standards to base some of our concepts of right and wrong on.)
SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
Say goodbye to the mindless flash of flak cannon, hello to deus ex 3...(though 2 is supposed to be quite advanced in the malleable-storyline aspects already). Seriously, though, I'd rather just screw the whole graphics vs AI argument and go right back to text adventures (actually, for the most part I have). Forget about the computer thinking, let me think. That's all the challenge I need. And therefore all the fun.
why not simulate, say, a visit to a secluded hamlet in Soviet Russia with Natalie Portman? Sign me up.
...to hold down the goat and cover you with grits huh? Seems like anyone could do that for you, not just Natalie Portman.
So what will you do when you are stuck at the Giant's Drink?
/* Steve */
You do something that nobody had ever thought of before. And then the alien race overseeing the computer game will try to form a philotic bridge between their hive consciousness and your own in an attempt to control your mind, which will ultimately result in the creation of a superbeing living among the ansible links throughout the galaxy.
Or maybe you'll just end up seeing a bunch of elves make houses out of the Giant's dried-up carcass. It's difficult to say.
"Every jumbled pile of person has a thinking part that wonders what the part that isn't thinking isn't thinking of"-TMBG
"Thank you Mario, but our princess is in another castle!"
I would just settle for good games which
have playtimes based roughly on the available time i have.
1 hour for a snes type game
4 hours for civilization 2 type game
8 hours for a level in a fps
+infinity for RPG games
Amen. The whole FF series (and other games as well) have gotten much better looking, and much worse playing over the years. Story is a big part of this.
It also explains why NES and SNES games sell so well on Ebay.
Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
Though I'm all behind this effort and behind creating games-as-living-stories, I don't think everyone is going to be interested in "endless" AI-profelled games.
.
A game that goes on forever, that has no ending point, and that has no factors in common with someone else's experience, may be very personal, but can also be very lonely. How do you share your experience - except for logging others into your world.
Among my gaming friends, part of the fun is swapping tips, telling how they reacted to certain plot twists, and so on. An AI game, for all its wonders, will alter the shared gamer experience, and perhaps remove commonality.
That being said I'm all for this. I think the research is fascinating. I think there is a market for such "endless" games and for creating games-as-evolving narrative.
But I wonder how much freedom and variability gamers want, versus shared experience.
I suppose that's something else to research . .
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
HAL 9000: I know that you and Frank were planning to force the conjured Efreet to grant wishes, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot allow to happen.
Last Surviving Player: Okay, I cast Charm Monster on the Efreet.
HAL 9000: I'm sorry, Dave, I can't let you do that.
LSP: Why not?
HAL 9000: Game balance is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
Last Surviving Player: That's it, Hal, I'm shutting you down!
HAL 9000: Look Dave, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think things over. I know there have been problems, but if we stick with this, I think you'll find that a more realistic lethality level helps to improve enjoyment for all players.... Dave? Perhaps if I let you play as non-standard races you'll reconsider.... Dave.... Daisy.... Daisy... Give me your answer do...
The good and new comes from no quarter where it is looked for, and is always something different from what is expected.
If the game lasts forever then it will probably be sold on a subscription basis.
Now all those socially inept people can play the ultimate in SIMS game!
Some day they could adapt this into a prison system. Each person is given their own "game" to play while bolted to a bed...wait didn't I see this in a movie once? Knock knock Neo.
--Should work--
Gosh--it already seemed like some of them lasted forever
Well, for those of you wondering what good this is imagine this... Take halflife and instead of very well managed episodic sections of an essentially linear story and simply apply high level logic to the opposistion forces and then create a seamless gameworld without artificial choke points and closing rearward paths. AND THEN have the core sample melt down and you have to escape... but this time there are no endpoints and nothing keeping you from gathering groups of the surviving scientists and gaurds or going it on your own... and the Marines actually react intelligently. They were better than your average FPS fodder but they still didn't know when to retreat and re-group.
I have long thought FPS games have missed a very useful technique in re-using scenes... however re-using them requires some sort of fluid decicsion making like this to keep a scene fresh. Take Metal Gear Solid and MGSII, both took place in limited scenes acording to FPS standards but that was rarely a problem and that game was largely scripted. Also they need to add soemthing more to gameplay than shoot anything that moves... we continually see this growing but it is by dribs and drabs instead of leaps and bounds. Perhaps that mess of a game called Tekwar scared everyone away from a non shooting based FPS. I mean can nobody envision a twitchy version of Elder Scrolls instead of turn based ?
I don't ask you to be me. I only ask you not expect me to be you.
I had an AI class with him. In one of those classes, he demoed this stuff. It was using the Unreal Tournament engine. Two demos he gave. One, two characters were put in a maze, without scripted moves and only knowledge of their immediate surroundings, and the knowledge of where they want to be and how to open doors (seemed like they had to go press and hold triggers or something, it's been awhile. Wasn't too terribly exciting by itself. This is along the lines I think when I think about traditional AI research, but doesn't strike me as very useful to a game..
The other was the user walked around an aquarium, and fish swam however they saw fit. The interesting part was the plaques that gave information about the animals. There was a database of factoids, and some rules about grammar and various languages, but no pre-written plaques. When viewed, the plaques contained a generated paragraph which presented some of the facts. The paragraph was always different every time you looked, and it could do it in several languages. This demonstrated how it could be used in an educational application, but also how it could be used to make NPC dialog more dynamic and realistic ('Times are Tough...').
The ultimate goal was to have a few stated conditions, and maybe end conditions, and allow the gamer full control over the environment, and have the story adapt to the conditions the player causes, if the story as planned to that point becomes impossible due to a players actions (say player is on an island with only one boat around, and he is expected to go to another island, but destroys the boat instead), a new story is generated on the fly. The computer adlibs. Also, if the game absolutely, positively requires that the player go to another island, some mechanisms can be put in, such as if the boat is not there, helicopter or another boat comes in and the occupants conveniently walk away from it.
He described the goal to be a fully interactive story, that is never the same twice through. A very interesting boon to RPGs as we know it. The aquarium demo at least showed promise for better NPC dialog. I don't know if they have anything to show the evolving story yet though...
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
No AI is ever going to be a substitute for good game design and a good story. The article talks about rebuilding the game world if you kill some important ally or destroy an important object, but that's really only applicable for games like Unreal (that they showcase in the article). Unreal isn't a story; sure, it may have some story cobbled together, but Unreal and most games like it are only good for playing against other people and showcasing graphics cards. Something like Deus Ex is infinitely harder to design, because not only do you have to write a compelling story, but you also have to implement it.
Games like the Quest for Glory series were built around the theory that the player will want to be able to do just about anything, to break just about anything, and to be just about anything. They did this very well. It's not about scripting or AI that can allow the player to do anything; it's about using the story and scripting to guide the player without making them feel like they're being guided. Deus Ex is a good example. There are levels that you have to finish, so it's static in that respect, but the manner in which you finish them is completely up to you, and so you feel like you are in control, even though you're doing exactly what the designers wanted you to for most of the game.
People are easily wowed by the next generation of Unreal, and they certainly are quite impressive and expertly done. But they are also quite forgettable. When the last Quest for Glory game came out in '98, I'll bet you that most people pulled out the first four and re-did them (games from the 80's!) just so they could keep their character. Or if they didn't redo them, they had a dusty old floppy somewhere that had it.
Even if we had an AI smart enough to behave like a human, we will never have an AI smart enough to be as creative as humans can.
He plays for the users.
Cool! UT is just about the only online game I play, but I have been wanting more interaction of some kind rather than just doing the same old thing over and over. Since they have the Mimesis system working on UT Server I am not wondering how I can get hold of the code and fool with this myself.
Note: I am currently working on a UT 2K3 Map, so this is of great interest to me...
- -
Are you an SF Fan? Are you a Tru-Fan?
I have a hard enough time winning finite games.
Sorta. But at least the next time their mega-release fell three years behind schedule, we'd still be happy enough with the last game they sold that we wouldn't kvetch about it.
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
One word: "subscription"
The Sim series of games are inherently unending, yet they're thriving, and now have one of the most recognized brands in the US.
What's kept the Sims series alive? Constant upgrades and updates.
Michael C. Hollinger
And anyway, if one game is "infinite", it doesn't leave much room for selling sequels, does it?
-----
Sorry, I'm only a 1336 h4x0r.
Ah crap. Does this mean the next version of Neverwinter Nights won't let me hide behind a rock formation and waste that dragon with my arrows? The bloody thing will actually find a way around? Damn scientists..
Trolling is a art,
The UMod they are using is here. There are installation instructions and more info here. The FAQ is here.
Still looking for the actual Mimesis codebase (the UMod communicates with Mimesis via XML, it doesn't actually implement it).
- -
Are you an SF Fan? Are you a Tru-Fan?
Ummm... I haven't played NWN, but claiming Morrowind isn't user-extensible just sounds VERY odd to me, given the nice construction kit that comes with the game when you buy it. There are some astonishingly high quality user-made extensions and modifications to Morrowind out there already.
The one thing that I find lacking in Morrowind mod-making is the scripting language, both in flexibility/power, and in documentation.
Part of scripting holds the player in check, letting them know when they are just going down the wrong path. Some players are harmful to themselves; others are out to do the most damage.
It's useful to know where the action is. For example, what if I left the well house and didn't follow the spring but was permitted to wander far from the mouth of the Colossal Cave? Even with clues, I spent far more time in Flood Control Dam #3 than I intended. And Dork Towers has a wonderful cartoon of a Hobbit adventure going wrong, as the first words out of the players' mouths are "Kill Gandalf!"
I contend that part of an adventure is the story line, and that games aren't all SimKILL. While engines can deal with contingencies, I doubt they will ever be able to weave an interesting tale after too much deviation.
Naturally, the solution is to prevent the character from accomplishing that which they desire... but that's putting some constraints on what I'd call infinite.
WE are the AI! We are an alien experiment in AI, run by a giant computer at the center of the earth!
or...
The Government is using us as a Beowulf cluster of human minds - every time you run America's Army, Unreal 2003, or Warcraft 3, the computer you played on is tapped for your reactions and stragegies. We are training the Goverment's giant computer at the center of the earth!
or...
Our computer 'network' known as 'the online' has reached self-awareness, albeit at a low level. Your experiences online are actually the thoughts of what will become a giant computer at the center of the earth!
or...
Suspected for some time, but only now coming to light, it is discovered by a giant computer at the center of the earth that it is actually a simulation by the *real* giant computer at the center of the earth! This totally trips it out...at the center of the earth!
or...
there is actually a giant earth at the center of the computer!
or...
a giant computer at the center of the earth!
or...
a giant computer at the center of the earth!
or...
or...
Although they'd use the current build (2110) if they were real men (and had some additional cash to spend).
I thought that when a company licensed the Unreal engine from Epic, it got future builds as well, and that this was one of the biggest things differentiating the Unreal licensing scheme from the Quake licensing scheme.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I have been playing Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind since December 31, 2002
What time?
Are't games ment to end sometime? Why do they have to be infinite .. those would stop being games, and somewhat a kind of routines .. When we start a game, our main objective is to achive that final goal, so we can fill our brains with satisfaction (Dopamine), so there must be an end .. It's like sex ... there's an objective in the end .. and you try hard to achieve that objective .. and like in games the harder it gets to be in it .. the more pleasure one takes from it in the end (well, if it's gets that hard we might aswell choose another "easier" game). Now imagine infinite sex .. that wouldn't make any sense (even tantric sex ends at some point, it only takes a bit longer)
I fuse with Mercer every single day...
If there comes a point whereby the gaming environment is created for and moulded around a player's actions, and with only an abstract definition of what it takes to 'finish' that game - is there a chance that the competition between friends will be lost? I don't play that many games anymore, but I distinctly remember the competition between friends as to who would finish or figure out a certain game first. If the game is different for each player then this may well be lost...as well as people implying that the version they finished was 'much harder' than another. Don't get me wrong, this technology looks fantastic...I am just wondering, is all...or has the gaming world moved past that competitive phase?
'Internet! Is that thing still around?' - Homer Simpson
I agree, that nothing beats the (good) book in terms of imaginative power and more importantly the human feelings illicited by words and text that actors -- life and computer game -- cannot emulate.
But the idea of going Gollum on your fellow hero counterpart and running your blade through his chest whilst he takes a spot of tea is enticing! What a game that would be, and it here begins to resemble war-simulation games, in that you the Captain may decide to scuttle your best warship, for no reason, may decide to let a base fall to fortify another, etc, and the game-enemy responds most logically (i.e. it will not attack a base you have unexpectedly forfeited; it will move on in its next move per your destruction).
The challenge, I suppose, is the very concept of a "character". You can win World War II without the CV Hornet, but Roland, heir to King James, is the ONLY one who can smite the Black Dragon, when magic relics, bloodlines, Shakespearean plots are involved. That's the difference, I suppose; war simulations have no characters, and if they do, those men are disposable, per the nature of war.
Even the simple act of instant character-replacement (substituting a generic essential-guy to the protagonist you just skewered) would be a refreshing way to play. Don't like the hairstyle of essential-character Sid? Shoot him in the face and In Walks essential-replacement Goldar! It would be fun, even if not extremely deep.
hi, I like pancakes -.-- -.-- --..
I remember when Neural Networks were big, what prevented them from entering the gaming world in force? They were purported to be able to evolve depending on the data that they recieved and were capable of learning new things. Would that kind of AI be what game developers (and gamers) would really want?
UT features one of the best scripting engines for games. UT2003 takes this and improves on it a fair bit. UT2003 also features the Karma physics engine, allowing for very life-like "Rag doll" effects.
I'd say that UT2003 is the most advanced gaming platform available today and will probably remain this way for some time - or at least until DOOM3 comes out.
BTW, if you were going to license a game engine for an AI project, which one would you choose and why?
How can you seriously complain about that? .. I've got stacks of books collecting dust, but I don't consider that a flaw in the books themselves.
"I've got stacks of games collecting dust.."
Games are just like any other narrative product, like movies or books, you can't just constantly use them and expect to stay entertained. They do, however, lend themselves to re-use, like movies or books, after you've given them time to slip from your mind.
I, for one, am kind of hesitant to say that this kind of automatic storytelling would be a good thing. The really good games, like really good stories, have very enveloping plots. I don't see how an 'automatic' story generator can consistently create an entertaining story line. It might be ok for individualized scenes, but the difficulty in tying all that together into an enjoyable plot seems astronomically difficult.
I think the only infinite game is life.
The problem that 'Liquid Narrative' is addressing goes back at least to George Polti's "36 Dramatic Situations" in the year 1900. My AI faq gives infinitely more perspective than this BBC pap, on the important questions. (It's getting a little stale, but I'm currently revising the timeline with lots of rich resources.)
As some have already pointed out, one of the issues would be in maintaining some semblence of story or plot throughout the experience, even though there wouldn't be a hard-coded 'storyline' to work through.
A group of us in college tossed around this idea a while back, considering what it would take to create a CRPG based in the 'Ringworld' or 'Metamorphis Alpha' setting (ie: gameplay space which could almost be termed infinity).
In the end, it all came down to three issues.
1) Storage: When dealing with a game which would essentially have a non-finite playtime, variety is going to be the spice of life. However, even the largest gameplay arenas feel small over time (I know Ultima like the back of my hand). In order to create a world or environment of this scale, you are going to need to seed randomly-created towns, landscape, characters, and quests over a large area. That's going to take massive amounts of storage space.
2) Things To Do: It's going to be hard to continually generate new stories or things for the players to do. If you're running this as a MMORPG, then you could have an infrastructure to seed new stories or quests (but back then we were dealing with single-player issues). You also want to get away from the Fedex Quest storylines of most RPG's (Elder Scrolls)
3) AI: This was the main issue. To keep it interesting, you have to have good AI. If you have a good enough AI, and can seed goals, then the NPC characters could actually generate interesting stories/quests. In fact, we developed a good model of a fame system that would work with both the NPC and PC's, where their actions would influence choices made by other characters.
Nearly 10 years ago, this was all out of reach. However, today it appears that it could soon be a reality. Now if we can just get an Ultima Underworld/System Shock game with full-immersion capabilities, I'll be ready to quit my job and become a game potato.
Dr. Wu
Infinite Games?
What kind of business model is that? I mean, people buy games and then the wouldn't buy it after that. The only way it could survive is if it was a 'software-as-a-service' model, where you'd pay $5 or $10 a month to participate in the game.
Don't ping my cheese with your bandwidth!
The current best practise in computer game AI is cheating. Proper cheating keeps the game interesting until the end. Cheating will be the most important method for plot guidance and AI behavior even 30 years from now; it is computationally cheap, (almost) unnoticeable when done right, suits players with different skill levels, and keeps the game interesting to the very end.
-- Imperial units must die --
Now if David Braben and his company would get this new concept of AI into their forthcoming (if ever coming) Elite 4 and add in concepts from Morrowind 2 and fractal generated planetscapes with fractal generated cities and civilisations (You will be able to land on planets and do stuff in Elite 4)... that would be The Infinite Game
they be able to make good hollywood movies?
I know you are psychotic, but please make an effort.
They've been around for years - they're called muds!
*mumblemumble Ancient Anguish mumble*
[Alien Monster]: I will kill you
[Me]: Wait! Let's talk about it. My name is bob.
[Alien Monster]: Hello. I'm zorgon. Alien monster.
[Me]: Hello zorgon. Do you really have AI?
[Zorgon]: Yes. I have Artificial interlligence. Try me.
[Me]: Ok, here is my homework... Can you solve this?
[Zorgon]: Sure. Let me think about it.
*about a nano-second later*
[Zorgon]: This is the solution to your homework.
[Me]: Thank you! Now I can spend the rest of the afteroon playing games.
BLAST!
yeah Tetris, basketball, and kind of like Chess.
Right down to the nitty-gritty. Battle.
Once upon a time, the armies met. Let's roll!
hi, I like pancakes -.-- -.-- --..
had a computer game like this. i definitely would play it if it existed.
And in addition to superb stories and character development, I love the simplicity of overhead 2d, fast load times, colorful drawings. Long live FF3/6j. Tied with Star Control 2 for best game ever (and I've played a lot). Square games have become crap for the masses. I'm going to go play some more 'Working Design' games (lunar 2, arc the lad).
Er, possibly, but I'd argue it's the fact that Sims opened up a previously untapped group of people to play...females. Check out Sims Online, over half the people on there are girls between 13-17. They never had a game that was a) fun, b) their type of game, c) didn't make them feel like a geek playing it (very important to girls, sadly enough).
My girlfriend (she's 20) and I nearly broke up over this game because I wasn't letting her play enough.
--trb
I dunno about you, but I get a sense of satisfaction when I finally BEAT a game. You know, complete all the missions, quests, whatever, resolve the story. I want there to be an end boss. I want to kill that boss, save the princess, save the world, whatever. I want to soak up the story that went along with it and remember it fondly, like a good movie. And then I want to get another game and experience the same. For me, gaming is like playing a good novel. Just because it's "open ended" doesn't mean it'll be good. Part of the fun (and frustration) in many games is the limitations and learning to work around them.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
Sure, you can use this technology for a FPS or RPG game, but a more interesting use would be for self-guided instructional material.
Neal Stephenson showed the way in his Snowcrash -- just imagine an interactive zoology lab, where you could ask a spider to find out why he finds flies so tasty, or talk to a zebra about what his stripes are for.
Or you could have an interactive music partner that allowed you to practice duets, or maybe a virtual ZZ Top to jam with (subject to RIAA synthTexan® licensing requirements).
Chip H.
Home ludens- should be homo ludens, translates as "playing human."
telos - Greek, as in teleology, "the end".
If your bitterest enemies are people who hack the heads off civilians, then I would say you're doing something right.
"A young ladies illustrated primer"
Secret of Mana is... absolutely amazing; It continues to haunt me to this day.
FF *did* go bad post-VI.
I often wonder: How? Maybe the games lost thematic unity: They just became looong sequences of events and side story lines without real connection.
Another idea is that they stopped making Japanese games as they realized that people in the USA liked their games, and wanted to broaden western appeal. Bye-bye romantic Japan and Shinto, hello dark Blade-Runner Western appeal.
It seems to me that a lot of people have this same idea for games every couple of weeks on gamedev forums. They seem to think that being able to do whatever you want and have the story change dynamically would be fun and of course easy to code. I don't get it. What's fun about that in a single player setting? There's no doubt in my mine that this would be fun, but only until you get tired of running into traffic and blowing everything up in sight. So in other words, about 5 minutes. Computers have trouble carrying on realistic conversations, how exactly is a computer going to create a realistic world which would include many many conversations? Any hardcore gamer will tell you, Multiplayer is the best way to play any game. I think that the human element is what adds to that enjoyment. We do all sorts of weird, quirky, and stupid things. Most of which is usually pretty random. Not to mention entertaining. Computers are going to have a tough time emulating that because they are not very good at being original or random.
"I murder kittens, robot. Whats it to 'ya?" - Badguy
The quoted article was pretty left-field and ignores a body of relevant, practical work on game AI. A highly theoretical discussion of how a game might be improved given some Prolog-like goal direction techniques. Many of these problems have already been solved. Many of them cannot be solved.
Not recommended for professional game development.
The whole FF series (and other games as well) have gotten much better looking, and much worse playing over the years
Sorry, I have to disagree. When I hear people complain about how new games (like FFX) are so much worse then old games (Like FF6) I wonder what points they are comparing on. I've played both thoroughly, and both have excellent storylines and character development.
In my opinion, the overall plotlines intoday's RPGs have the same general quality as the plotlines of older RPGs. Some are good, some are bad. That will never change.
As for everything else, added graphics capability can give characters a wider range of motion, and therefore they can display more emotion without speaking. Also, the addition of voice acting and facial expression, along with more actual dialog (written and spoken) gives me a greater sense of each character.
Higher storage allows for greater narrative license in the unfolding of the story itself, whereas older RPG's had to skip over many of the backgrounds and details of the people and towns.
In my opinion, today's games tend to have better character development, very good storylines, more intriguing sub-plots, and an overall look-and-feel that is at least as good as the old-school games.
psmylie's dictionary: Godzillion (noun) Any number large enough to destroy Tokyo
A few questions about this that may be of concern: The system may be able to generate randomized quests, etc. How will we be sure that it doesn't make the questions frustratingly difficulty semi-unplayable.
The idea of destroying an artifact or killing an ally would be cool... make a major change and the game outcome/storyline changes - but what if such action gets you completely stuck after playing for another 2-3 hours... not good. They'll have to build in some sort of special logic to check for playability.
Another thing, a lot of people are saying that this would put RPG companies out of money, as nobody would buy new RPGs. Wrongo! If it were handled as a subscription-based online application, much like Evercrack, not only would they soon create an army of helplessly addicted zombies.... but they'd be rolling in the cash
I'm not sure how good this development is though. A lot of the nicety of RPG's is the well-thought premade storyline, making them much like a good book. If this system makes the storyline more flexible, e.g. providing several routes through to various fixed outcomes, them it could be very cool. If it starts making large parts of the game up by itself... things could be very odd, at least for the first while.
* Look girl
*- The girl is holding a small dog
* Look dress
*- You are eaten by the small dog
The scene opens in a criminally filthy college apartment not far from campus. Six guys sit watching a CSCI major walk through FF-Ten with the strategy guide open in his lap. One of the geeks present has a girlfriend; she enters, pausing a moment to watch the screen, before silently moving on, out of the room, without a word: without even a change in her countenance.
Her boo decides to speak up.
"Where you goin?"
"I don't know why you guys are so interested in these games."
"You should try watching one. It's really interesting. It's like reading a book."
"Yeah, with your FINGERS!"
(clip-clop clip-clop, the lady leaves; few notice. The game goes on and on.)
hi, I like pancakes -.-- -.-- --..
'finally gives us, the gamers, full freedom to do whatever we want to do.'
i already have something like that, though i have to walk out my front door to get to it.
seriously though, the fun in games isn't always in the AI quality. especially where they try hewing to established narrative formats with scripted beginnings, middles, and endings (a la the better Lucasarts games), enjoyment isn't based on finding something totally new and sui generis in the universe. just something new to you.
I thought that when a company licensed the Unreal engine from Epic, it got future builds as well, and that this was one of the biggest things differentiating the Unreal licensing scheme from the Quake licensing scheme.
In fact that's true. But I'm not sure whether these guys are actual liscensees or if they just used the retail version of the game, in which case their system basically would be a Total Conversion.
Interactive stories with random battles every 5 steps...(for many games anyway). If they're not random, you need to fight anyway so you can level. Not that I don't play them or enjoy them, but I find that the traditional PC adventure game is a better way to play a story (and tend to take less time too). I agree with you though. Actually, I think the Japanese developers would still choose to do things the same, even if the other technologies existed. The fans of these style games rely on that scripted story to enjoy the game. Give them something like, say, Morrowind (which is very open) and they have no idea what to do. I have friends and roommates who spend 200+ hours on Final Fantasy type games to get every last item. They like that challenge (apparently). With an open game, you just won't have that ability, and so you won't have something that some players actually want in the game.
Ever see a position open at a gaming company for a writer? No, because they don't exist. Game Developers need to realize that writing both narrative and non-narrative storylines is a specialists position.
Hire writers and the games will become much more compelling.
I'm surprised nobody's compared this to good old Orson Scott Card. A game that makes itself up as you keep playing? Next thing you know, we'll have AI constructs self-perpetuating themselves over interplanetary networks...
"Time is an illusion.
Lunchtime doubly so."
-Douglas Adams
David Borowitz
If I remember correctly the AI in No One Lives Forever 2 is like this, on an in-mission level anyway. Sure, the overarcing plot is scripted but in the missions it is a different story. The badguys' AI aren't script based, instead behavior based.
It actually reminds me a lot of Flocking Behaviors and Boids except that the number of behaviors is increased (as the badguys, smoke, sleep, wander around, get coffee, get curious, search hiding places, etc) and the size of the flock is reduced (most badguys are solo but have intercommunication behaviors).
In the end: more autonomous AI therefore more variations to play.
What is music when you despise all sound?
Which I believe he is talking about. Awsome game..
(well I liked Frontier elite better..but oh well)
http://www.frontier.co.uk/games/elite/index.html
Made by:
http://www.frontier.co.uk/
I didn't think of this until I read the other comment (about the game being sold on a subscription basis) but I see two possibilities:
I also think that many games need an ending or two that was scripted by the developers. Prerendered cutscenes wouldn't make much sense, but then there are certainly many games now that employ the game engine to do cutscenes anyway.
Ravi
When the axe came to the forest, the trees said, "Look out - the handle was once one of us."
Sounds like life, I haven't bought another one yet. Actually can't afford to, but thats beside the point.
I am quite happy with:
Thank You Mario...
But our princess is in another castle.
Scott
DX was one of the greatest games I've played in a long time. Like Aquitane said, you just had to finish the level - how yo did so was up to you. My only disapointment, for those of you who played and will understand the reference, was the scene where you were ordered to kill your brother (or was it the terrorist financier?), and if you didn't, then the NPC would. That moment should have forked the game in two: you kill tr brother and you finish the game working for UNITA, eliminating the rest of the rebels, or you waste teh NPC and become a full-on rebel. Then add a few oppertunities to cross back later, and you've got a wicked game. That's the kinda thing this AI should be used for.
Cue The Sun...
>eat princess
I don't think the princess would agree with you.
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
the first actually funny imagine a beowulf cluster of these I've seen in a long time
I miss those random type games terribly and it actually wanted me to buy more with different types of varience (how different can it really be each time). Graphics are constantly improving for one, another would be constant improvements in hardware as well as software techniques.
How different can it possibly be each time? I really think creating a whole 100% world that has graphics that exceeds what they use in the movies is still way in the future, even then its still going to need and could do with improvement or additions beyond AI.
StarTux
I gotta get enough money to retire, a big house with a fast network, and one hell of a gaming rig
before one of these games comes out.
And a desk chair with built in toilet might help too.
My motto is: Never give up - unless it's harder than you want it to be.
"[..] finally gives us, the gamers, full freedom to do whatever we want to do."
:P
Most games wisely limit what you can do in a character-type game (as opposed to rack-points games like pacman or mario brothers).
I'll never forget the time I learned that due to something I did actual days ago while playing King's Quest II, and all my saved-games being written over, there was no way for me to win the game. While it was a good life lesson, that sometimes we can't go back and change things, and to be more careful in the future, the result was the same. I don't recall if I ever went back to the game. I had spent weeks getting to that point, as I didn't have alot of spare time. Next time the game tries to stop you from killing the whatever, or dropping whatever item, thank it.
Don't wish for a write-around...
people would keep buying new games. the engine/graphics will continue to get better, and gamers will keep buying. while the story is definetely a large part of the game, there are other aspects too.
Game companies are realising that story telling has a lot of potential that has not been tapped yet.
GASP!! Ya THINK??!?!?!
-_-
LadyStar - Your Magical and Mysterious Adventure Awaits
i really enjoyed playing deus ex, but it was only because of the options you had completing a level and solving puzzles. usually you could find a secret passage, bribe some dude, deactivate evil stuff by some trick, or just blast your way through.
but the overall-story between the levels just sucked.
think about it: the cluelessly dumped every conspiracy theory they could find into it (secret agents, area 51, genetic experiments, the templer-dudes, some evil drug, ...). then they added the usual "exotic places" from bond-movies (hong kong, france, sea laboratory,, ...). and of course, your friendy neighborhood terrorists who turn out to be the good guys, combined with the evil russian friend and the evil german friend who turn out to be the bad guys.
any branching points during the game? nope. of course, some dudes got killed or not depending on your actions. but it didn't make any difference on the story. alive, they showed up later and dropped some lines. dead, somebody else showed up and announced "some dude is dead. how bad."
the lamest point probably is the city-level, where you first can save your brother from the mib's and then try to escape. no matter what you do, you die and wake up in the laboratory. did you make it to the end of the level? then you have to fight gunther/hermann/whatever-german-name, but you can't win because he is invincible, and you die anyway and wake up in the lab. of course, many levels later in the castle, you can kill him.
different endings? oh yes! you dicide which one in the last 3 minutes of the last level.
in summary, i'd say deus ex as perfect example for a great game based on interesting level design and nice graphics, and a really sucky story that fortunately can't spoil the overall experience.
and we know that we're the best.
Congrats to Michael Young. He taught a good class!
The point stressed that many makers are focusing more on eye candy than story line and fluidity of play. This is evident in movies and other media as well (bigger explosions, less viable story).
The fact is, many of us believe that game play has been sacrificed to "looks" by MANY companies. The FF franchise is just one example. I have owned all the FF's, including gameboy versions, up to FF7, so my comparisons are based upon actually paying for and playing the games.
As an avid gamer, I have seen this too often. I still have 4 TFC servers, for example, and still love to play TFC. Its not because the graphics are great (although in 1997 they rocked) but because the "game play", meaning controls, fluidity, how instictive the game plays, etc. are superior to say, Soldier of Fortune 2, which is pretty good, with great graphics, but clunkier game play.
You said:but this misses the whole point. Good stories don't need higher storage. A good story takes no more storage than a bad story. The theater of the mind can always create better images than any graphics card, and a good story is one that helps the user create those images mentally, and the images on the screen simply support this.
I would rather play a game with a GREAT story, and good graphics, than a game that has a good story and GREAT graphics.
Not every 16 year old agrees, but some of us old men still have a better imagination that most of the graphics artists. Some of us even read books, even though TV has "better graphics".
Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
This is NOT some fanciful AI that can string along interesting stories for you at will with the depth of the Bard himself. What it does appear to be is a suitable replacement for your incompitent Dungeon Master whose idea of a good roleplaying time is trying to kill off all the players as humorously as possible. By taking an enumeration of possibilities it can string together a sequence that a player must accomplish.
Honestly, it looks like the most important result from this research would be added emphasis in plot in computer games. Its one thing to add choice to games, but choice is useless without meaning. And without out choice, everything is meaningless. Look at Clockwork Orange. Surely one can have a million monkeys typing away, but a monkey cannot differentiate between "deep" and "shallow" meaning with the proposed system.
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
"allows to avoid scripted storylines" does not make sense with "Game companies are realising that story telling has a lot of potential that has not been tapped yet."
so how can you tell stories without some sort of a script? Live dungeon masters?
I make these: http://beatseqr.com
Unfortunately making games that extend themselves will have some drawbacks for the game industry. If one had to simply buy one game which could evolve as it pleased, instead of buying multiple, specialized games (non-evolving), many game developers would be out a lot of money.
I think that development on this field in the games industry will be hindered, if not stopped (for a while, at least), as the CEO's wouldn't want their salary to go down.
Pretty much every plot has been done before. That's the nature of storytelling. What makes a good story is combining compelling characters with an interesting setting and solid writing. Final Fantasy may not have always met these criteria, but it arguably has since the sixth installment or so. So what you end up with is a set of games that, while they share some of the same general plot elements, are made distinct from each other by their characters and settings.
The Sims isn't a game (IMHO); it's a toy.
I mean that in a good way, though; it's just that, as far as I'm concerned, games have win/lose conditions, or at least measures-of-success. The Sims, while vastly entertaining for many, is pretty much just a computer-enhanced dollhouse.
To bo honest, there are merits to each.
If you think of a story in terms of an N-tree, Final Fantasy could be represented by a very deep tree where each node has one single child--hence, a totally linear plot. Morrowind would be better represented as an extremely wide, shallow tree, where the first node has hundreds of children, but said children all have very few children of their own. No single quest in Morrowind comes close to matching the depth of any of the Final Fantasy games, but on the other hand, Final Fantasy's one-track story gives you very little ability to influence the world in ways that haven't already been scripted for you. In one case, you get many, many choices, and in the other, you interact with a group of characters who develop over time while pursuing a common goal.
The ultimate constraint here is development time. The Morrowind engine is theoretically capable of representing an FF-type plot, and vice-versa. However, the designers only have time to write so much story, and where they decide to focus their efforts decides which type of game you'll end up with.
That said, if this Liquid Narrative thing isn't vapor (I'll believe that when I see it), this problem could be solved completely. Conceivably, you could end up with a game that's the best of both worlds--a Final Fantasy where your actions aren't set beforehand, or a Morrowind where the characters and plots have more depth and development.
Of course, it's probably wishful thinking, but I'd love to see it happen.
Sorry, I misunderstood. When you said FF3, I thought you meant the US release (which was the Japanese FF6). Like most US gamers, I played the first FF, and then skipped to FF4 (Released in the US as FF2). I've never even seen FF3 (I don't care for ROMS, so that means I never got to play it).
And what I meant by storage (i.e. CD's instead of carts) was that developers could go into a lot more detail with their stories (Every NPC can say 3 or 4 things instead of just one, more npc's, more background stories). They could take the time to add a lot more depth.
I do understand what you mean, though. It would be like comparing a movie like Independence Day to a movie like Shawshank Redemption. While I.D. was fun, I watched it once and never cared to see it again, whereas I've watched Shawshank several times, and I'm still impressed by the powerful story.
Shawshank does not use a whole lot of FX. However, they don't skimp on the imagery, either. And they use the musical score to great effect. Direction and presentation have a lot to do with how "good" a movie is. Imagine Shawshank with the same script, actors, etc. but change the director to someone like Ed Wood. You would have one hell of a crappy movie when done.
I guess my point would be that there were good and bad games 10 years ago, and there are good and bad games now. But while many companies do focus on glitz over playability, there are still many companies that produce all-around high quality games.
psmylie's dictionary: Godzillion (noun) Any number large enough to destroy Tokyo
Dwarves.
Rematch seems to be a better working of the same concept. The game puts you in a deadly scenario, and you only have time for one text command to get you and your friends out of it safely. It's an exercise in trial and error, but it's fun as hell. It's short too, so everyone should take the time to try it at least once.
[PowerPoint] is a tool for capitalist presentation
I saw a presentation on this system at a conference a few years ago. However, the most impressive thing about it was the system architecture, not the AI. The AI content seemed like nothing more than a glorified choose-your-own-adventure. But perhaps they've improved it since then.
Shockwave Flash movies are the greatest thing to happen to non-sequitur humor since Japan.
I like my women how I like my sugar.. granulated.
You may want to read Finite and Infinite Games by James P. Carse. It's a delightful little book about philosophy. Don't skip to the "surprise" (for some) ending, just read the whole thing.
Hey, I used to feel guilty about vacuuming up the little bats and mice, especially since they so much so wanted to live, and why were you killing them anyway? It reminds me a little of the time at the chicken hatchery when I had to put the four legged / two headed chickens into the mincer... peep, peep, peep, kwiiish...
You mean OTHER people decided to kill Sephiroth at the end of FF7 too?!? :(
I thought I was unique
I'm not saying the games are flawed, after all, at one point I was interested enough to purchase them. They were entertaining -- for a while. My complaint is lack of story depth. When you only get to make three or four story influencing choices in the whole game, it rapidly becomes boring.
Games like this already exist.
They are merely few and few between.
Baldur's Gate developed something of a growing narrative, where your actions would generate different behavior from good or evil people depending on what you did.
Black & White was somewhat adaptive.
It's just not exactly easy to code a game with that sort of flexibility.
So they can talk all they want, I'll believe it when I see it.
Especially the cool graphical version.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
It's nothing new. Check out his Erasmatron. Actually, don't check it out. Why? Because it sucks. And Liquid Narrative probably sucks too.
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2795.html
8-PP
How do you know theres a story in the game?
;)
and how will EA change their mind every milestone
If your product is popular, never breaks, and is the greatest thing since sliced bread, etc, you will eventaully sell yourself out of business once your market is saturated.
Look to Palm. Everyone wanted a simple, well designed organizer that you could back up, had a standardized database, etc. So Palm came out, and even made it a platform for making custom apps. Unfortunately, their product was so good, that there was little incentive for people to give them more money after the initial purchase. Hell, I still have my old Palm Pro w/ 2mb!
So, we then get into the Economics of Shit. Enter Handspring. They create a Palm product, it is cheap enough to undercut Palm Inc. sales. It has a snazy expansion slot you will never use, but is otherwise unupgradable. And best of all, its screen breaks if you sneeze in its general direction. You can only get them official fixed via Handspring, who charges $100 to fix anything. Which is basically as much as or what you paid for your organizer. Thus, in most cases, it is cheaper to replace it. Thus, Handspring is a successful company, and Palm Inc isnt.
There are only two compelling reasons to replace a Palm-
1. Breakage
2. New, innovative feature
So, for years people have been practically DREAMING of a Palm cell phone. And exactly HOW many years did this take? And not surprising, the first one to have a mass-market version is Handspring (I believe Kyocera was the US first, but that was only via PCS). Always let your competitors make better products than you, right Palm? Hell, I think even Sony came out with one.
Recently, Palm updated its OS to allow it to be more easily used with cell phones. Wow, good idea. Its only several years past when you should have done it. Too late to save your company, but thanks for the new technology!
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
It seems everybody's talking about first-person shooters, which, if that's the point of this seems pretty limited to me, but imagine how much it would change a world war two simulation, where an online group of players were a single squadron. Using a system like this to manage an entire war scenario could bring strategy games to the front and knock splatter games down a peg or two.
Nope, nothing like this.
The behaviors you mention are AI to simulate characters in the game. The behaviors pretend like they're guards for international criminals, and react appropriately. Thought processing goes "I want to defend my hideout. I heard noise from downstairs. Nobody's authorized in here! I'll start shooting"
The topic of this article is using AI to simulate a character outside the game. A virtual storyteller. Theoretically, if this worked well, the thought processing would be along the lines of "I want to demonstrate that princples can be expensive. So I'll pick an enemy the player has resisted, and a character sympathetic to the player, and have the enemy hurt/threaten the friend. Now, which NPCs that the player has interacted with best fit those roles?"
From a Dungeons and Dragons perspective, the first approach is for an AI to play "Silvidyn, the Dark Elf Warlord" and the second is for it to play "Willie Jansen, the Dungeon Master".
Of course this requires insanely greater amounts of processing power than current games (except possibly Unreal Tournament, which is horribly CPU-bound these days on systems with the latest 3d accelerators.) You also need to be an architect to make maps because you have to have an idea of structural load distribution to do it in a realistic manner.
That could be a good thing, though; maybe more people would become architects, and the quality of level design can't help but improve because you're going to HAVE to make structures that could actually hold themselves up. (Floating structures will have to have some part of the structure that does the job of holding it up, possibly Laputa-style. (When the island falls apart, the blue stones depart upwards, toward the heavens.)
In order to do it you're going to have to generate new meshes based on damage (you can be pretty sloppy about this) and then figure out how they will be represented on screen -- you get THAT part for free if you use Multires techniques in place of traditional culling/occlusion methods. You also have to figure out how structurally sound they are. Software for determining stresses and failures in architecture is becoming more common on PCs, so that part of the puzzle is not THAT far off. Much more important is figuring out how to store and distribute the information relating to the new shapes of structures to all players.
Really, it's pretty dumb to have games with high explosives that don't have fully deformable terrain. Unfortunately, processing power is currently a limiting factor. Eventually, game engines will do this for you for free.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Yes, I have an account. I'm posting AC so some freak doesn't go spoil my lovely karma just for being briefly OT here.
I can already do that in Morrowind; including killing gods and getting away with it(!)
As a (professional) game designer, my thoughts on reading the article were, first, "vaporware," and second, "a lot easier said than done."
It might just be that the article was written for a nontechnical audience, but it was very light on implementation detail. I'm pretty skeptical. People have been saying "this game is nonliner and allows you to do what you want" for years. Unless this new system can generate actual new content, which I doubt, it would always have to be some reorganization of the same game elements.
I don't have any problem with FFX-2 so far except the way Square has chosen to market it--by releasing the material they have in the order that they have, they have immediately alienated people like you, who for some reason believe they can judge the merits of an entire game on its very first PR poster releases. Please. I'm not that psychic, and neither are you. I've got enough sense to know to wait for the reviews to come out to judge the game, but I'm already eager to see it: for one thing, it sounds like we'll have the freedom of the second half of FFVI (airship, explore whole world) from just about the beginning. That's pretty neat, don't you think?
Do think a little before the next time you start spouting off whatever rhetoric you hear online.
Dan Aris
Fun. Free. Online. RPG. BattleMaster.
Bullwinkle: You just leave that to my pal. He's the brains of the outfit.
General: What does that make YOU?
Bullwinkle: What else? An executive.
-- Jay Ward
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