Slashdot Mirror
The Search for Secret Shuttle Parts
Slashdot readers have been submitting this story about the search
for secret shuttle parts with all sorts of insane conspiracy theories attached to their cut & paste of the URL. It's apparently just the box that handled encryption for messages, so of course Uncle Sam wants it back. Quite the needle in a haystack tho.
So this is going to be the next spam, get your secret shuttle part, only $30
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
If its for encryption, it probably uses the same technology/techniques that the DOD uses and probably also has military secrets which shoudln't "fall into the wrong hands".
Spy novelists are salivating right now with such story line.
Before you start searching the ground start looking on eBay. Maybe its easier to find stuff there....
You have to be kidding.
Secret Government Property?
They should have disguised it as an 8-track tape player.
To ensure perfect aim, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target
It was bound to happen. It allways takes a week or so before the theories start popping up.
Anyway I think it was the Aliens with the Communists conspiering to destroy the Anti-terror pact by exposing that the space shuttle doesnt go into space ata all and instead just flies around the place.
Mouse powered Chips, Open source Processors and Lego
I imagine that what the government is worried about is someone using this device to impersonate shuttle control from the ground. A terrorist's dream...if the shuttle ever flies again, that is.
If the government doens't know of any flaws in AES, Blowfish, RSA, etc., then why would they bother using a "top secret" crypto box instead of just the publicly available algorithms?
It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
What we need is one of the large media outlets to interview someone about security issues, and with any luck, that individual would say insightful things like
:-)
*there's no reason why a security device should be sent up in a rocket which could very well blow up over earth and then could be refound and it's security implements "un-engineered." if the device is that sensitive to unengineering, then either it is defective, and serves no role to play, or its role should not be on the shuttle. The idea of the shuttle exploding over land was always under consideration.
I will likely never know what is in this security device and how it works exactly, but I usually have greater faith that the government has some understanding of security issues, and that they wouldn't design single source of failure systems.
On the other hand, if this device is part of the original shuttle design, then perhaps I'm just being too hard on them, since no one including their grandmother truly understood security issues at that time. Whereas today...we all do...now don't we?
After all as an omen the shuttle does look bad. It is named after the discover of America (what do you think the yacht was named after). It carries the first Israeli in space and the parts fall first on Palestine Texas - the home state of Cheney and Bush.
OK so you probably don't belive in such things. But the President does, or at least he believes in the bible which is full of such interpretations of events. More importantly the loonie fundamentalist Islamic types believe in such stuff.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
Slashdot readers have been submitting this story about the search for secret shuttle parts with all sorts of insane conspiracy theories attached to their cut & paste of the URL. It's apparently just the box that handled encryption for messages...
A Slashdot editor actually READ a submitted article, and posted comments that seem reasonable and logically thought out?
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Any system that requires the encryption system to be secret can't be that much good. I can understand why they want to find it, but worst case is they switch over to another system of which the US must have dozens of suitable candidates.
It's an encryption unit. It encrypts stuff. So what?! They probably change these things now and then anyway for security reasons, plus I would imagine all the craft use different keys and encryption etc. Then again, the Nazis using Enigma used keys like 'Hitler' - nothing like being too cryptic.
The thing that gets me the most though, is the fact that people are selling parts on eBay. It had to happen I suppose, but its just what I would see as being incredibly sick. Are people really that much of a slave to the mighty Dollar that they must do that? Totally sick.
people would have learned by now that putting "Secret Government Property" on a box is not a good idea. Write "Spectrographic Differential Analyzer" on it and everybody will just think that it's a really boring and useless piece of scientific equipment and leave it alone.
...if this box is just for encryption of messages between the shuttle and the US, why would it be some top-secret ultra-1337 souped-up encryption hardware? For all we know, it could just be a bit of hardware optimised for doing, say, triple-DES encryption of the messages. It's not as if the communications have to stay totally secret for the next few years/centuries/millennia.
Note to M1-ers: a curt but otherwise insightful message is not "Flamebait" or "Troll".
If you know what it is and if you want to buy it I have it but I will not put it on EBay. I am going to get rid of it privately.
You can't handle the truth.
And of course, there's no better way to keep people from being interested in opening a little black box than to write "Secret Government Property" on the faceplate.
Libertarians somehow believe that private businesses should be stronger than governments but weaker than individuals.
...that they would tell us?
NASA has put forth numerous lies about the space program, such as spreading the idea that the "Moon": is not a ridiculous liberal myth.
.. the next time you're out in the backyard exercising your Second Amendment rights, the liberals will see it! These satellites are sensitive enough to tell the difference between a Colt .45 and a .38 Special! And when they detect you with a firearm, their computers cross-reference the address to figure out your name, and then an enormous database housed at Berkeley is updated with information about you.
It amazes me that so many allegedly "educated" people have fallen so quickly and so hard for a fraudulent fabrication of such laughable proportions. The very idea that a gigantic ball of rock happens to orbit our planet, showing itself in neat, four-week cycles -- with the same side facing us all the time -- is ludicrous. Furthermore, it is an insult to common sense and a damnable affront to intellectual honesty and integrity. That people actually believe it is evidence that the liberals have wrested the last vestiges of control of our public school system from decent, God-fearing Americans (as if any further evidence was needed! Daddy's Roommate? God Almighty!)
Documentaries such as Enemy of the State have accurately portrayed the elaborate, byzantine network of surveillance satellites that the liberals have sent into space to spy on law-abiding Americans. Equipped with technology developed by Handgun Control, Inc., these satellites have the ability to detect firearms from hundreds of kilometers up. That's right, neighbors
Of course, this all works fine during the day, but what about at night? Even the liberals can't control the rotation of the Earth to prevent nightfall from setting in (only Joshua was able to ask for that particular favor!) That's where the "moon" comes in. Powered by nuclear reactors, the "moon" is nothing more than an enormous balloon, emitting trillions of candlepower of gun-revealing light. Piloted by key members of the liberal community, the "moon" is strategically moved across the country, pointing out those who dare to make use of their God-given rights at night!
Yes, I know this probably sounds paranoid and preposterous, but consider this. Despite what the revisionist historians tell you, there is no mention of the "moon" anywhere in literature or historical documents -- anywhere -- before 1950. That is when it was initially launched. When President Josef Kennedy, at the State of the Union address, proclaimed "We choose to go to the moon", he may as well have said "We choose to go to the weather balloon." The subsequent faking of a "moon" landing on national TV was the first step in a long history of the erosion of our constitutional rights by leftists in this country. No longer can we hide from our government when the sun goes down.
I don't believe a word spewed from the mouths of those bureacrats.
Have you been stalked by Seth today?
Secret Shuttle Part Sought in Texas Search
:)
NOT ANYMORE!
God bless the media
If you have a box and it performs encryption, then in this day and age the security of future transmissions on this box (oh say, to keep terrorist froming saying "Ok shuttle, now lets fly into the sun") should not be reliant on the security of the box itself! This is the same failed tatic that took out the Germans in World War II and DECSS; its security by obscurity. A combonation of public key cryptography to exchange symetric keys to do quick 3DES should be more than adequate for the lenghth of time that the shuttle mission is over and hence time to choose a new key!
If religous zealots don't believe in Evolution, then why are they so worried about bird flu?
The government has the right to keep secrets, if only so low-level North Korean spies don't turn up sensitive information in public sources. I can hear the free-speech, Freedom-of-Information-Act liberals screeeeeeching about the evils of government secrecy even now... and I find it ironic that the Michigan Militia and other far-right groups would agree with them.
As for me... anything that the ACLU and the good ol' boys in the militia can agree on strikes me as supremely dangerous. Here's hoping that some secrets stay secret.
Ok, the veil of secrecy is off - it's a black-box text conversion device. To encrypt communications, it takes the first letter of the word, moves it to the end of the word, and adds an "ay". This type of encryption is also going to be replacing CSS for DVD's, so there's a lot of money being poured into finding it now. ;) Shhhh....
wow i didn't know rush limbaugh read slashdot
1) This has been written hundreds of times before in the comments. :)
2) It is not Informative, it is Pathetic.
Sadaam now has our encryption box, there is now no choice... We MUST go to war... It is a matter of oil er national security that we do this!
The Shuttle has crypto boxes on board to support DOD missions that require secure air-to-ground voice communications links. This isn't as much of an issue as it used to be since the military has lost interest in using the Shuttle to launch military satellites.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Its Bush's brain cell.
If you find it please return it, he has been operating without it for years and really needs it back.
It is a 50Mhz SparcStation running OpenBSD. It handles my encryption needs just fine. :)
Maybe for this they need encryption, they found something weird in orbit, and intead to yelling this to the world, causing chaos, they tell what they found only to authorized officials.
Or maybe what they are looking for is not the encryption device, but what they found out there. What if it's a pocket sized monolith full of stars? or a sign saying "Kilroy was here"? or a dinosaur/alien egg?
Is the issue here about what type of security used ? Goverment to Goverment secure lines tend to use one time pads, so the key book is the weakness, but if that remains secure (i.e. in hardware) then everything is safe.
Maybe its this key book that is so vital as its shared across the shuttles.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
Ninety percent of what the government marks as secret might have been at the time it was marked but today really isn't. Secrecy has a time element to it that causes it to expire.
For example it does not matter - except from a historical perspective - that we can easily read Caesar's encoded battle commands; the Roman army is not at peril because of our ability to do so.
Things which are secret technology have an even shorter 'secrecy expiration date'. At one time a device with an 8080 in it was absolute leading edge technology, and might have been considered 'top secret' - but today?
Please remember that the shuttle design is more than 20 years old.
The news media is looking to sell itself to the public; so the drama of 'looking for a top secret device' sells better than 'NASA looking for Apple II CP/M card' which is the level of technology that was around 20 years ago.
Does anybody think the debris may be radioactive? I mean it is really strange how the papers keep saying shuttle debris may be extremely dangerous to you, you should not touch it, etc... when the shuttle should have been pretty much empty of fuel, and any fuel that could have remained would have certainly burned up in the atmosphere.
Sometimes I think people need to realize that even with all the "straight-talk" and analyzation ther were seven people burned alive that didn't do anything wrong except want to explore the unknown and make strives for science. These seven people were family members, friends, teachers, and of a rare breed of astronaut who had joined the handful before them to enter space. Many have been lost in the name of science and discovery, but to assume that maybe they're lives were lost in vain would be to me one of the worst things ever.
Take a step back, realize what's being said and move on, they're collecting the wreckage because someone or a whole lot of someones are going to be losing their jobs because of this. NASA does everything right, and this was something done wrong. For every scientist in NASA there are thousands at the door ready to take their place and for every astronaut there are thousands ready to take their place. NASA is the home of the eleet and the best of the best, failure or mistakes are not taken lightly.
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
you can't prosecute someone for opening a box labeled "foward sensor array" but one that says "secret goverment property" is a different story.
Sometimes the simplest answer is the right one.
I tire of all these conspiracy theories. Relax and watch more TV instead.
No "escape pods" are attached to ISS. One Soyuz craft, capable of ferrying down 3 people, is docked at the station. Russia is obligated to swap out that Souz every 6 months.
Russia also uses their unmanned Progress craft to send up small amounts of supplies on a regular basis, and to remove some of the station's waste. The craft then burns up on re-entry.
Using the Russian craft effectively limits the station's capabilities. Since the Soyuz is the only way to get the crew off the station in an emergency, that means no more than 3 people can be onboard, which is about one-half the intended crew complement, I believe. Fewer people means fewer results.
The cargo-capacity of Progress, only a small fraction of the Shuttle's, is simply insufficient to resupply the station in the long term.
And, of course, remember that tthe station is not yet complete. Only the Shuttle can do that job.
Don't forget that the Shuttle's intended design was crippled by the Nixon Administration's budget crew and that, ever since, the U.S. has been operating a human space flight program that manages to combine lack of direction (no President since Kennedy has provided even an ounce of space leadership) with rigidity and feigned purpose.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Of course they cheat you, they shit you.
You think they're running this thinggy up there for *you*? They only want *you* for the army. Or, for paying your taxes.
Serious, what I don't like in the article is this ugly 'conspiration theory' stuff. Of course, Columbia came down for very normal reasons: negligence, faulty engineering, you name it.
You're not sufficient stupid to believe they don't run extra&secret stuff parallel to the scientific stuff, are you !?
'Apparently': MIT-dictionary server:
Apparently Ap*par"ent*ly, adv.
""
3. Seemingly; in appearance; as, a man may be apparently
friendly, yet malicious in heart.
Apparently they only want their encryption back. Commander Taco, sure you know what you're saying here? No dupe, but did you read the links of earlier and the outdated equipment? You don't really think that a 8"x8"x8" box (or whatsoever) contains an encryption algorithm worth this fuss?? "if you had kept your mouth shut, we might have considered you a knowledgeable man", as the Greek proverb goes. Or doesn't it ?
One, it's only an assumption that this "secret" thing is an encryption device. If we knew what it is, it wouldn't be secret anymore, eh?
Two, military aircraft fly every day chocked full of classified hardware and software. And, sometimes they crash. The argument that the possibility of a crash should preclude the use of classified devices is wrong and inane.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
You guys really don't know much about military/government grade encryption do you? What they are looking for is a unit that encrypts network/voice traffic to and from the shuttle. Since it uses OTP (One Time Pad) type encryption, the only way the communications from this trip can stay secret is to not have the keys fall into the wrong hands. This is no conspiracy, it's just the ways things are.
Lets see the space shuttle was designed in part to ferry secret military sats to space. Of course it has an secret equimpment on board.
What is really funny is that people were surprised that the government reacted so harshly to items appearing on E-bay. And people were suprised when the Men in Black(R) show up demanding the items back.
Slashdot, home of supporters of free software, free music, and free speech.Except for Moderators that disagree with you.
Cheap crypto like AES, etc is a great way to send information securely if you couldn't do any work ahead of time to set up a truly secure channel.
But why take chances that someone has broken that encryption? I mean, we all know they can be brute forced, at the least.
This box likely contains a one time pad which is used to communicate truly securely. Unfortunately, it sounds like the one time pad is shared with other systems and thus if a single copy is lost, all communications are compromised.
The government is prone to making errors like this. Look at how the secure GPS works. There are something like 6 keys to decode it and they aren't changeable. Thus, for most operations, it is not worth the risk of sending out a GPS unit with the secure key installed because if it is lost, that key has to be invalidated.
Oh really? I guess my next question is, who's ass did you pull that little "factoid" out of? Your own?
For one thing, they were still in radio communication with the shuttle as it was breaking apart, albeit not receiving a signal..nor were they actually aware of what was happening to the shuttle when they lost contact. I find it hard to believe that anyone in NASA would look at the loss of communication and think "well, they seem to be having trouble..better blow the shit out of them before they get too close to the ground."
I guess if you're a troll logic doesn't matter much, though, so by all means..continue on, oh wise one, with your vast knowledge of those evil conspirators at NASA. Do me one favour though, brush your teeth. I can smell the bullshit from here.
I hope Hollywood recognizes the potential in this for a sequel to "Repo Man" ( http://us.imdb.com/Title?0087995 ). Right down to menacing glowing box. It's pure gold.
My wife reports that the supposedly reputable RTN interviewed experts that theorized that one of Columbia's missions was to obtain surveillance of Iraq that was supposed to give Colin Powell irrefutable proof to reveal to the internation community later that week that Iraq is indeed concealing weapons of mass destruction. However, instead he has had to report much more mundane footage from conventional surveillance sats. So one of the things the recovery teams are looking for is any of this data that could have survived.
I consider it a bit unlikely, but thought it would be a nice thing to add to your conspiracy jar.
One Time Pad.
This "black box" hunt is just a smoke screen for the real search. They're looking for an eighth body. They had a Grey advisor on board.
My guess is that any data in that secret box has probably been destroyed in the crash. If it would still have any value after being toasted in descent and ramming into the ground at a few 100 mph, the US government might consider making their 'secret boxes' less sturdy...
At least I had the ball's to post with my real name.
And you don't know half of what NASA knew about the state of the shuttle.
I worked with a system design group for NASA, so I know a little more then you.
It is not the first time someone in Goverment has had to cover their ass over things.
Wise men speak because they have something to say, Fools because they have to say something!!!!
While it is a crash investigation and it is illegal to withhold what you know, if this top secret piece of decryption hardware fell on your lawn, you legal own it as it is on your property and you have salvaged it.
Like it or not this is the case and the media and the police saying otherwise is starting to bother me.
One little note, just because it is your property doesn't mean you are able to withhold access to it to the crash investigation, after all, that's exactly what it is. It is illegal for you to impede the investigation, but at the end of it they are required to return your property to you.
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
You mean the range safety system? Sorry, well documented.
The NSDs provide the spark to ignite the CDF, which in turn ignites the LSC for shuttle vehicle destruction. The safe and arm device provides mechanical isolation between the NSDs and the CDF before launch and during the SRB separation sequence.
The mechanism is installed in the SRB's and the ET. Once away, there is no destruct capability documented. And why document one, but not another?
blah blah blah....why did the aztecs worship the sun and the moon?
What if it was part of their spaceship! NASA should change its abbrev to SNAFU! The top secret item could still be floating around out there..
Late Saturday, NASA said the U.S. Strategic Command apparently tracked something flying near Columbia after it had reached orbit. Space agency spokeswoman Eileen Hawley said it was possible the object came from Columbia, but stressed "this is very raw data" that had just been turned over to investigators and that it was too early to speculate.
Since they kept the launch damage secret no one in other agencies thought to comment.. or did they? If you were NASA admins, would you rather look like idiots, or have a spaceship full of walking dead? I feel fortunate to only have a theory to get shot down.
This box likely contains a one time pad
Yeah, okay. You got voice transmission with the most complicated space vehicle in the world, and you're NOT going to use some souped up top secret chip hot off of NSA's chip plant, you're going to ask some astronauts that should be piloting the damn ship to sit down and do some modulo arithmatic so that they can send "where do we land" down to base.
Shut the fuck up.
Score: (-1, Plagiarism)
J
It's a conspiracy theory to assume anything negative about the type of encryption being used based on the information in these articles.
Everyone keeps asking about why the government is using top secret hardware to do encryption when they could just be using some standard encryption technique, people are complaining about security through obscurity, etc.
It could just be the storage media that holds their private key.
Anyone who stores their private keys on ThumbDrives or carries SmartCards has this kind of "top secret" hardware.
-T
North's newest book, Mission Compromised talks about the proliferation of an encrypted communications device like the one in question.
This is pure speculation on my part (which I know is highly irregular on /.), but maybe it's some private key or keys on the unit that are the concern, and not necessarily some non-standard encryption algorithm.
-me
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
Your real name is nexusone? I didn't realise people from NASA were now adopting 'Hackers' style names.
Can't be a real thread until it is!
The same with the shuttle. I'm afraid there are a significant number of people out there who bekeve that god is on their side, if they feel that their beliefs are justified - they will fight harder.
See my journal, I write things there
Seems everyone kept their secrets about debris coming off the shuttle from launch to orbit. Late Saturday, NASA said the U.S. Strategic Command apparently tracked something flying near Columbia after it had reached orbit. Space agency spokeswoman Eileen Hawley said it was possible the object came from Columbia, but stressed "this is very raw data" that had just been turned over to investigators and that it was too early to speculate.
me? i've published everything i could find.
Why encrypt anything? its ONLY a space shuttle, not some military bomber. unless there is something "else" happening...
My potato gun was confiscated by the United Nations. They said I wasn't allowed to have weapons of mash destruction.
Could just be a way of making the search sound "exciting" to interest others in searching.
When I'm looking for stuff I always look at google and ebay first. If it isn't there, it doesn't exist.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
The ciphers fall into three types. Type 1 are the most classified, details not known. Has ciphers such as BATON, JUNIPER, MAYFLY, CRAYON. Type 2 falls in between, contains stuff like KEA and SKIPJACK, some details known (for instance SKIPJACK is now declassified). Type 3 contains all the rest, roughly Why some of the ciphers are secret is because their design will indirectly reveal ways to attack the ciphers (naturally the ciphers have been designed to resist such attacks). Such ways to attack are known by the designers of the classified ciphers (that means the NSA) but possibly not by the academia. For example, DES was resistant to a form of attack not known previously outside NSA (possibly other intelligence agencies too who use the Echelon walk-around to go around legal restrictions when spying on their own citizens (this means you are country A, you spy inside country B and give the results to the spooks of country A). So having secret ciphers is a matter of protecting the "intellectual property" of the spooks.
There could also be other technical innovations, as the module is likely made tamperproof. If somebody has more information (or pointers) about the aforementioned classified ciphers, please post it here.
As for why the shuttle communications are encrypted, could it be because there's some things going on in there you don't want people to know (not ETs but like designing chemical weapons reagents and watching certain countries).
Hit the nail on the head, it's likely the encryption device, that sits between the radio input and the transmitter proper.
The reason they want it back is that is IS a CCI, and therefore by beuracratic law and common sense, must be recovered and accounted for.
As to the key not being intact, odds are the device was in use when crew perished. Likely they didn't zeroize (official term, no shit) the key. If the unit is intact, so is the key. Fortunately, the key storage space is "tamper proof" that would self destruct the storage area on any attempt to crack it open.
Striving to achieve a lower state of conciousness
Camille has her obsessions, but let's be fair -- she doesn't rail against phallic imagery and male oppression. Hell, she revels in phallic imagery and male oppression.
To be sure, there's a vast school of mainstream feminism that does rail against phallic imagery and male oppression. But this school hates Camille, and vice-versa.
-kgj
Article VIII
A State Party to the Treaty on whose registry an object launched into outer space is carried shall retain jurisdiction and control over such object, and over any personnel thereof, while in outer space or on a celestial body. Ownership of objects launched into outer space, including objects landed or constructed on a celestial body, and of their component parts, is not affected by their presence in outer space or on a celestial body or by their return to the Earth. Such objects or component parts found beyond the limits of the State Party to the Treaty on whose registry they are carried shall be returned to that State Party, which shall, upon request, furnish identifying data prior to their return.
Plus the applicable U.S. code
"Whoever embezzles, steals, purloins, or knowingly converts to his use or the use of another, or without authority, sells, conveys or disposes of any record, voucher, money, or thing of value of the United States or of any department or agency thereof, or any property made or being made under contract for the United States or any department or agency thereof; or..."
NASA has never relinquished control of the spacecraft, in case you hadn't noticed.
I am not a lawyer, nor do I suffer fools lightly...
Let's say something falls from space onto your property. Suppose that this fallen something is highly radioactive. Finders keepers?
-kgj
You can do all that now (and have for a long time) you little shit, you just need to read the documentation to see how.
I suppose it's a good thing for the US government that the crash happened on home territory. When landing, the shuttle passes first over a great deal of sea (Pacific Ocean) and then lots of US soil.
Imagine a scenario where the geographical circumstances would not be so favourable and the parts of the shuttle would have fallen and crashed into another (perhaps less friendly) country. Would the US kidly ask for the debris to be returned, or would they engage into a secret undercover recovery operation in order to retrieve these top secret components?
What if this operation would have to be so extensive, that it could not be held secret? To what lengths do you think the US government would go in order to re-acquire the parts?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Haven't you ever played Raptor?
We now have confirmed reports from an informed Orange County minister that Ethel is still an active communist.
More details: Something might have struck the shuttle about a day after launch.
Sources say data from Air Force tracking radar indicates the possibility that a piece of the shuttle may have come off. They see something that appears to be separating from the orbiter about five meters per second. That's about 11 miles per hour.
It could be a "water dump" but the profile doesn't seem right.
Given the small area of the initial search for this device, are they proceeding on a hunch or did this box somehow "phone home" and report that it was intact. Is it their weird NASA device from Dante's Peak ?
Pre-Challenger, it deals with an abort from a polar launch at Vandenberg. The only piece of land under them was Easter Island. They manage to land safely, then the real problems start! :^)
The amusing part was that no one at NASA had considered a number of problems in the book up to that point. (Apparently there was much cursing and swearing in NASA, then they bought more copies to dissect.) For example: Passports. A ladder to get out/in without ground equipment. Easter Island is about the only place to abort to during one phase of a polar launch. The shuttle transporter wasn't rigged for mid-air refueling. (Easter Island is about the most remote place on Earth.) Political problems with Chile and the (1982) Soviets nosing in. Etc.
And that was just Space vs Law on the ground. I'm sure that we're eventually going to see much more interesting Space vs Law fights in space.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Just curious. Are they using WEP? Is that what they are trying to keep secret?
No, but I cun relieve you of them thar bags of money. *ch-chick*
"You saved 1968." - Ms. Valerie Pringle to the crew of Apollo 8
Just drop it on this guy's front lawn ... after all, finders keepers - his problem now.
Your logic, well, there is no logic to your argument. Thats how a six year old thinks.
There is very little future in being right when your boss is wrong.
does anyone remember some people's theory that we never actually went into space or orbitted or anything? and that it was all an elaborate hoax by NASA and the U.S. Government? I wonder what they think of this...? I mean, it's pretty irrefutable that this stuff came hurtling in from space.
in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni
Remember the old days when we could intercept the non-encrypted space shuttle video and audio? Then we saw UFO's and NASA claimed it was "Space debris being pushed around by thrusters". After all the hoopla NASA started to encrypt the broadcast! Does anyone remember when this started?
I thought that the hype regarding the dangers of Shuttle debris was overblown until I saw a picture of a completely intact fuel tank (a large sphere) sitting on someone's lawn with the entire family gathered in front of it. That might not be the smartest place to be....
A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
The launch failure of Intelsat 708 in China a few years back raised some concerns about crypto material falling into the 'wrong hands'. Seriously, you don't need any sinister motives for hunting down classified material... the paperwork alone from its loss would probably be more trouble than a massive ground search. =]
Here's an excerpt from the Intelsat 708 investigation that might shed some light on the subject.
The Intelsat 708 Encryption Boards Were Never Recovered
The Intelsat 708 satellite carried two FAC-3R encryption boards, one in each of its command processor units. These boards are considered Controlled Cryptographic Items by the Department of Defense, and the algorithm is classified "Secret."
Encryption boards are used to protect the command and control links between the ground station and satellite. They are required even on satellites that carry unclassified U.S. Government communications traffic. These devices do not encrypt the communications traffic that is otherwise processed by the satellite payload.373
Shortly after the Intelsat 708 launch failure, Loral's Communications Security custodian reported to the Department of Defense that the status of the encryption boards was being changed to "destroyed."
This was not seen as unusual by Department of Defense, however, because its prescribed policy requires that encryption boards be reported as "destroyed" when they are launched into orbit.
The Department of Defense did not require Loral to produce any evidence that the FAC-3R boards were in fact destroyed.374
After recovering debris from the crash site, Loral engineers grossly estimated the percentages of various subsystems and components that had been recovered.375 In that estimate, Loral engineer Muhammad Wahdy estimated that 30% of the command processors were recovered.376 Loral personnel then packaged the debris and shipped it to Palo Alto, where engineers examined the debris to specifically determine if the encryption boards were recovered.377
That examination determined that the FAC-3R boards were not, in fact, recovered from the crash site.378
The two FAC-3R encryption boards used on the Intelsat 708 satellite were mounted near the hydrazine propellant tanks and most likely were destroyed in the explosion. Additionally, the two FAC-3R boards had no distinguishing markings other than a serial number, making it extremely difficult to locate them amongst the crash debris.379
It is not known, however, whether the FAC-3R boards were recovered by the PRC. If they were, it would be difficult for the PRC to determine the cryptographic algorithm that was imprinted on them.
Reverse-engineering of a damaged board would be even more difficult. Any successful reverse-engineering would be resource intensive for the PRC.
If the PRC were able to determine the cryptographic algorithm contained on the FAC-3R board, it would gain insight into the state of the U.S. military in the 1960s, although such algorithms remain in use today.380
When the National Security Agency designs and recommends algorithms for use in equipment, it assumes that the equipment will be lost or compromised sometime during its operational lifetime. The National Security Agency relies on unique cryptographic keys for each separate satellite to keep command and control links secure. Because the FAC-3R boards on Intelsat 708 were uniquely keyed, the National Security Agency remains convinced that there is no risk to other satellite systems, now or in the future, resulting from having not recovering the FAC-3R boards from the PRC.381
"Postage prepaid"
"If found, drop in nearest mail deposit box"
Not to mention the presence of a Mossad agent (read: Isreali war hero against Iraq) on board.
I was watching the incident which lead directly to the withdrawal of publicly accessible 24 live (non encrypted or artificially delayed) audio visual broadcasts from space - I used to have a constant feed streaming where I worked and at home (as I also had a permanent connection at home too).
If you'd actually seen the broadcast you'd know it had nothing to do with UFO's or 'Space debris being pushed around by thrusters' as you put it (this is related to an entirely different reported incident and has nothing to do with why they cancelled some of the live a/v feeds, it didn't even happen at the same time). Additionally, the concern astronauts expressed about the space debris was not that it might be a UFO, but rather it might be part of the ISS or the shuttle which was, to them, of much more immediate concern.
I remember the actual incident quite vividly and it had everything to do with dust and small particles, some of which were suspected to be metallic by the crew, being pushed around by the air filters on board the ISS - as it was this which lead to complaints from the crew.
Needless to say, the crew were not happy about this situation - particularly as a complaint regarding this issue had already been made, yet it had been seen to be ignored by mission control. NASA ground control attempted to disregard the importance of the complaint, they even seemed to doubt it's credibility (I hypothesise that in such an incident some ground staff may have downgraded the severity of the complaint in the own minds and put down to the perception of an understandable crankiness of a crew living in close, cramped quarters for months at a time).
It was the appearance of disharmony and complaints from the crew which lead to the decision not to have 24 hour 'live' streaming as it was decided that this was not in the best interests of NASA, or the ISS, from a public relations perspective.
In their defence, the crew on board the ISS had been wound up even further as the communications to the ground kept breaking up and cutting out due to interference, which forced them to have to keep repeating their report. They also had other on going issues which give them cause for complaint, but I don't remember what they were.
Personally I do not think they were being particularly cranky - certainly I'd expect to see much more negative retoric in an office environment over issues considerably less trivial than small flakes of metal in the air conditioning, but I can only assume that NASA feels the significance of the project demands a greater sense of sensitivity that most work environments. Overall, I think the withdrawal of the video on these grounds was a mistake, as it has hurt NASA and ISS public relations rather than helped (due the relative triviality of the incident).
Of course there may be other reasons which lead to the cutting of the a/v feed, but this was the incident and reason cited by NASA at the time...
* IIRC this happend in the first half of 2000, but I could be wrong about that as I often find I get time periods mixed up.
You absolutely right. It is always sad to loose our fellow citizens working for government. I wouldn't feel that same way for thousand of dirty animals (that's how you call these people in Africa or Asia?) who die every day (F them)
We American patriots should keep together and as world leaders We will prevail.
Viva la America
None of the explanations put forward so far (it's an encryption device... it's an IFF device, etc.) would explain WHY NASA won't say what it is.
What is there about "it's an encryption device and we're afraid that it would compromise security if it fell into the wrong hands" that is any MORE dangerous than saying "we're conducting a very, very, very intense search for it and we won't tell you what it is?"
The assumption is that if the Bad Guys don't know what it is they won't be interested in looking for it????
It's not like saying "It's a Mark XIV Syzygy Convolver just like the ones we use on our missiles--and Moammar Khaddafi has an outstanding offer of one hundred million dinars to the first person who gets him one in working condition."
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
I really need to dump off some garbage and once it is in your yard you'll own it and I wont have to worry about it any more. Damn, if I had only known this all of these years, I could have avoided all of those dump fees.
During a military op against Iraq a few years earlier, I saw on one of the news channel that one of those Stealth Fighters crashed.
US appeared very tight-lipped as to what caused the crash, and the media like-wise(they just reported the crash, and no details). My guess is that they didn't want ANYONE to pick up the parts and study them, as it will reveal "tech secrets".
How they recovered it, I dunno. I was just interested on how tight-lipped everyone seemed to be about the event.
I agree, but there has to be more the the story.
If it was Public Key Encrpyion, what is the worst that could happen if such a system fell into the wrong hands? I know-- someone could send encrypted information to Mission Control!
One actually wonders if they are using symmetric encryption or something that is so heavily vulnerable to compromise. And if so, why?
Lets face it-- encryption today is inexpensive, available, and (relatively) secure. So I don't buy the "it is the encrpytion, stupid" argument.
More likely one of the following:
1) It is a legacy system which should have been upgraded long ago, is vulnerable, and may render previous military communications vulnerable.
2) it could be similar to the encryption technology used by the military which could allow people to clone them.
3) Someone made some design decisions which favored speed over security. I doubt this scenario because it would be too risky for the military.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Here is some many people don't talk about but any rocket that does up into space has a remote selfdistruct system.
No they don't, from an engineering and risk assessment perspective that simply makes no sense to me.
Rockets are either designed to be:
1) Re-usable.
Take the SRB's (Solid Rocket Boosters) or the Baikal (the reusable part of the new Russian Angara rocket) - they are reusable, that is: specifically designed to be reused. They are supposed to return to earth once they are spent, ready to be reused, bolted on to new second stage apparatus and fired back into space time after time.
Putting self-destruct systems in case they fall back to earth (which is something it's designed to do deliberately) would be silly. Particularly as the SRB's are (a) fitted with parachutes for a nice soft landing and (b) only launched so that they fall back to earth over the sea (where there aren't any cities).
2) Disintegrate.
Though they are not really rockets, ET's (External Tank's - i.e. the big orange thing an Orbiter is attached to) are designed to self distruct in earths atmosphere when their role is complete. I use this as an example to demonstrate that if don't want your 'Rocket' to self-destruct then it's fairly simple to have it disintegrate (burn-up) on re-entry.
In fact, as we've just seen, getting things to NOT burn up on re-entry is the problem.
Moving on...
I'd also like to point out that not only is the Orbiter not a 'rocket', but that if you really have as much knowledge as you want us to believe then I'm surprised that you didn't call the Orbiter an Orbiter and instead only ever referred to it in your posts as a 'shuttle' (which seems an odd, though not entirely unprecedented, thing for someone in the field - bearing in mind it was on it's return trip).
If as you suggest, self-destruct systems exist on rockets and Orbiters, why not on satellites? After all, satellites like Skylab clearly lack such systems (as was demonstrated by Skylabs ungracious 'landing' over Australia) - this odd proclivity towards putting self-destruct systems on space craft, while simultaneously discriminating against satellites makes little sense.
Additionally I'd point out, that it is extremely difficult to hit any precise target with an Orbiter, even with the aid of OMS/RCS (Orbital Manoeuvring System/Reaction Control System) and the avionics system, hence the unusual landing pattern that all Orbiter's follow - it's a difficult enough task just getting to the runway. In fact only one human has ever landed an Orbiter without the aid of the avionics system (and this individual had hundreds of flights logged).
This is relevant because hitting a target as big as a city with a returning Orbiter _ON_PURPOSE_ would be a difficult task for any pilot. Hitting a built up area, let alone any people, purely through random chance would take a miracle.
Besides which - did you not see the chunks of the Orbiter that came down? They were massive - some of the pieces that fell (which were numbered in the thousands) were easily the size of an engine block.
Explain to be how this is better - and in any way safer - than letting the Orbiter come down in once big piece?*
*= Especially when there is an inflight crew escape system (which was fitted after the Challenger incident in 86) - which would mean even if the Orbiter was heading off course the crew would still have the chance to slide along the escape rail and parachute out when they reach a low enough altitude (assuming the Orbiter was not spining or rolling).
It occurred to me recently that they may have considered the possibility of where debris falls when they made Florida the primary landing zone. Or maybe it's just happy coincidence.
At any rate it seems like a shuttle breaking up returning to Earth would only fall in the Pacific Ocean or the USA due to the return path.
Columbia broke up during the point of highest stress, which would be the most likely point for a breakup, and it was dead center over the contenintal U.S. Coincidence or design?
I wonder about a shuttle taking off, though. It seems to me that it might fall into another country if it exploded farther up than Challenger did.
Giant ants. And one thing is for certain, there is no stopping them; the ants will soon be here. Deep space Homer.
Don't believe the nonsense, unless you hear it from me directly.
from the submitted-over-and-over-again dept.
Does this mean the article will be posted on Slashdot over and over again too?
Written instructions given to the searchers in Bronson showed a picture of a faceplate from the device, which in white letters on a black background spelled out "Secret Government Property."
I love how they just stamp "Secret Government Property" on this box and expect it to be left alone if it was ever found somewhere just lying around. Come on, if you really wanted to keep something safe, would you just stamp that on it? Thats like leaving a sack of money in the street with a giant "$$" on it. Who wouldn't take it? Wouldn't it just have been easier to leave it a plain black box, that wouldn't draw too much attention?
SIGFAULT
Minor nitpick, but I thought the acronym was IFF, 'Identtify Friend/Foe'?
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
As for the launch: Florida is as much to the south and thus as close to the equator as possible in the USA. When launching a rocket into space, I understand that they take use of the slingshot effect that the Earth's rotation causes. At the equator this effect is maximal, so being nearer to it is advantageous.
For the landing: My understanding is that any space vehicle that approcaches Earth flies from East to West in order to match the rotation direction of Earth. If the vehicle would approcah from the other direction, the difference in speeds between the revolving Earth and the approaching object would be too large, making the needed retardation (= heat factor when entering the atmosphere) unnecessary great. I'm not sure though whether the optimal landing zone would be near the equator. Probably depends on the trajectory.
Of course I meant to write the opposite "from West to East".
Who wouldn't take it?
I probably wouldn't...I don't even want to begin to imagine what the government would do to you if they caught you with *anything* labeled "Secret Government Property". Sheesh, I mean, that's just ASKING for it..
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
I have built an argument that isn't based on secret information.
First off, if they housed the decoding hardware in a separate box, then they also took steps to make that box destructable. Reliably destructible, in fact. US government makes no secret of the fact that it protects sensitive information in a variety of ways, self-destruction being one of the most economical and reliable methods.
Second, it takes a special effort to make something that can survive such violent disintegration at high speeds and high altitudes. Things that survive are things that are designed to survive, and ONLY such things, except under improbable circumstances.
If the secret decoder was somehow built to survive, or there was any significant chance that the decoder box could survive shuttle destruction, they would have packed it together with an automatic means of self destruction, triggered either by being unable to talk to its remote authentication unit or simply by sensing the fact that it was in freefall at a low altitude, or either, or both, involving a timer, or some other sensing method. Destruction could involve explosives, or the release of some corrosive, or simply circuit burnout using a large battery.
Conclusion: they aren't worried about anyone finding anything sensitive unvaporized.
Note that constructing this argument requires only to watch lots of spy movies.
Cant you people see the conspiracy? NASA just wants us all to look for the secret encryption box while they quietly clean up all the alien future technology.
Do you think the government would really label secret government property as "Secret Government Property"?
Nah. This is just bait for the conspiracy nuts to bite on. It'll keep them busy, and hence, away from the real action that's going on behind the scenes.
They're mining the moon for cheese. Right now, they're setting it up in launch pods on the dark side of the moon.
Eventually, when they're ready, they'll forcibly rotate the moon, and launch the pods towards the Earth. When that happens, the pods will burn up upon reentry, superheating and liquifying the cheese.
The Earth will be covered in liquified cheddar.
And then, the aliens will come and devour mammoth-sized tortilla chips, using humans as additives in their horrific salsa.
Boycott Kraft! They shall bring the wrath of the Cheesari upon us all!
Hmm. Doesn't it seem silly for "secret" goverment parts to actually be labelled "Secret"? I mean, if some 'joe' found a 'secret' part, they wouldn't know what to do with it were it not for the fact that it was LABELLED as a secret goverment part.
Duh (?)
You stupid dipstick! Dont chu be puttin that watchamacallit intah yer mouth, boy!
All yer uncles spent a heap a their oil money on puttin you into the White House!
Iffin you waste it all by getting yerself killed suckin on some trash you says fell from the blue sky, and I'm gonna havtah beat you near senseless. Just like that time you tried to bonk your bruther Jeb on the back of his head. We'll have to be makin another other story, like the one about the pretzel.
The things we gotta put up with around here.
Sakes alive, you idiot.
Give that here!
Surely they cannot indict you for opening a black box with an uninteresting name on it, but if the box says "Secret Government Property" sure they can say you knew what you were doing...and it's behind bars you go. That's some bureaucratic way to cover their asses.
"Mr. Annan! Mr. Annan! There's no air up here!"
31337! eleet :)
Let's assume it's a crypto box for a start, and further assume it's a symmetric cypher. Now, if it turns out the algorithm and keylength is similar to what's out there in the open world, that would suggest that such a cypher is currently unbreakable. That wouldn't be assured, as it's possible that NSA might be able to break it but they are confident the rest of the world can't, but Occam's Razor would suggest that it was indeed secure against the best efforts of the world's military cryptographers.
Now, if it turns out that they are using a significantly different algorithm to the open world, the question arises, "Why?" Are they just particularly paranoid, or do they know something that renders current algorithms vulnerable to cryptanalysis? What extra tricks does the algorithm use? What do those tricks prevent?
So the feds have *plenty* of incentive to find this little toy before the Russkies or the Chinese get their hands on it.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Or NK or about any country, provided of course that you can keep the delivery secret. See, kids? That's why they want ALL shuttle parts back, there are spy sats and
Ahhtoo much structural damage it'd take lessee... 4 to 5 days to fix that alone. Then the carburator is totally busted, man, and don't even get me started on the muffler. It's cheaper to buy a new one, this won't take you anywhere for less thaan, ah say, twelve grands.
as long as that trigger-happy cowboy dude is president, the answer is easy: more war.
No Steath Fighters went down in Iraq, One however crashed in Serbia during the NATO action there.
The above are all valid reason for the do not touch. There also the additional issue of heat, and burns.
Not all metals 'glow' when hot, the thermal capacity of some of the largest pieces would be hours, even days.
The local encryption may not be the problem here.
The Intelligence Community likely has a LARGE number of satellites in orbit (1000s?)that perform intelligence gathering missions. If this box is intended to communicate with those systems, and those systems have older, less secure or less flexible encryption mechanisms aboard that aren't easily upgraded, then letting this device fall into the wrong hands could mean the loss of some very important sources of military/intelligence information. If the only way to change the encrypted satellite control/comms mechanism is to go there and physically swap it out, then how do we do that with a grounded shuttle program? Remember, some of these satellites could very well be 1970s era.
(Caffeine level rising.)
I wonder how you register a space vehicle? I can just see a Motor Vehicle type line-up of astronauts and cosmonauts waiting to hand in their forms.
"But-but our launch window is coming up, can't you speed this up?"
"I could slow it down. *stamp* Go to that line over there to get your picture taken. Next!"
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
you do realize, that there was an Israeli and Indian national on the Columbia flight as well?
Of course I meant to write the opposite "from West to East".
All low earth orbits are generally West-to-East. The reason is a combination of the two facts you referenced. To stay in orbit, an object must move at a certain rate relative to a motionless Earth - the fact that the Earth turns has no effect on the necessary orbital velocity (well, maybe it does if you count air friction in the upper atmosphere the shuttle orbits in, but we'll neglect that). On the lanuch platform the shuttle already has a large West-to-East velocity - the rotation of the earth. So you can either give it a delta-V of orbital-velocity minus the Earth's rotational velocity, or you can give it a delta-V of the sum of the two. Obviously it is more practical to choose the smaller delta-V. Smaller delta-V on launch of course translates into smaller delta-V on re-entry.
This is why it costs more to go to the space station - it is in an inclined orbit. The shuttle starts with velocity in the direction of the equator, and no velocity in the direction of the poles. The orbital velocity relative to a motionless Earth is the same for the space station as a standard equatorial orbit, however relative to the rotating Earth the velocity is higher (since you have to add in that extra polar component). Therefore more fuel is needed for the launch and payload must be reduced.
Maybe it should have been labeled... Setec Astronomy Our headline: the Republican National Committee issued a press release that it's broke! In other news, Greenpeace, PETA and several other high profile environmental groups report increased donations.
= Grow a brain...
Setec Astronomy (ever seen sneakers?)
news commentator: "Our Headline: The republican national commitee has announced today that it's broke. A spokesperson says "We had money yesterday, but it's all gone!" In other news, donations to Greenpeace, PETA and other environmental groups are up."
= Grow a brain...
Written instructions given to the searchers in Bronson showed a picture of a faceplate from the device, which in white letters on a black background spelled out "Secret Government Property."
If it's secret government property, then why did they write, "Secret Government Property" right on the front of it in big white letters?
---- "Excuse me. Where's the children's gun section?"
http://images.ucomics.com/comics/cs/2003/cs030111. gif
What is your fascination with my forbidden closet of mystery?
nyaah!
</Wiggum>
Your mind is squeezed by a blast of pain!
But then OJ Simpson, Elliot Gould and James Brolin slip free from their government captors and show up at the memorial ceremony!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Shhhh! Don't you know that we haven't officially started the war yet? Those Rangers aren't supposed to be there!
Oh, wait, you mean LOSE .
Why do you run such pointless auctions?
Have you made a noteable profit from these auctions?
Lets say... If there's a meteorite fall to a place near you.
Do you immediately come near it, touch it, and grab it?
No. You examine first, determine if it's safe to come near it, touch it, and grab it.
Not all people will use cautionary measure though, many will act like a kid who just found something interesting.
But overall, I think that common sense is needed. Other than that, it's relatively quite safe.
I think that the whole health hazard of nearing and touching those parts have been overblown.
Yes. There might some hazard from toxic materials. But... Most of them probably already being dispersed into the atmosphere. And to those that managed to fall. Well... You will know soon enough on whether or not it's toxic.
Anyway. The Space Shuttle is the property of the goverment of the United States of America. I think that it's quite reasoneable if they didn't want someone to move and touch parts of it, less alone take (a.k.a. steal) it. How do you feel if your property has been move, touch, and steal from you without your consent?
Of course, that's is if... what broke up above Texas is indeed the Space Shuttle Columbia, if it isn't. Well... Then you got your explanation there on why they didn't want anyone to inspect those parts.
Well, since MS cant be sure of the username of someone downloading :)
things, they are going to play it safe and have everything dowloaded
and executed by Explorer as suid root. That way, it will run on ANY
system anywhere.
-- George Bonser
- this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...