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House and Senate Reject E-mail Surveillance
vena writes "The Star Tribune reports the House and Senate today agreed not to allow email surveillance of American citizens proposed by the Total Information Awareness program. Additionally, negotiators agreed to halt all future funding on the program without extensive consultation with Congress."
Does this mean I can stop using PGP?
Trolling is a art,
Yay! The good guys finally win one.
Suck on that, herr Ashcroft...
Now all we need to do is get PATRIOT II thrown out...and the DMCA...and PATRIOT I...
--- On the other hand, you have five fingers.
Cause that shit must be good....for once, they're actually doing stuff in the interest of the public!!!!!
BTW, first post!
Then, on the other hand they're spying on international communication lines as much as possible (Echelon, Echelon II, etc...). Of course that's perfectly legitimate for them because it hardly affects privacy of the American people.
--- Eat my sig.
"Hey, bob, this thing we all swore to uphold, are they serious?"
How much you want to bet this gets tacked on to the next "patriot" style bill?
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
On that note... You can get your cool clothes... Any proceeds beyond the basic cost of each product will be donated to the American Civil Liberties Union.
Platform independent bug tracking software
I guess even they couldn't stomach the idea of reading other people's spam.
Too bad, they could have compared prices on herbal viagra.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
They won't let the Pentagon spy on Americans? That's OK, I'm sure we can find somebody else to do it for us, and return the favor to them, since we are allowed to spy on foreigners.
You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Just don't lie to me, pal. Not that I'd know if you were.
---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?
personal emails may be a little to spicy.
Life moves pretty fast; if you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it. -FB
From the article: Lt. Cmdr. Donald Sewell, a Pentagon spokesman, defended the program, saying, "The Department of Defense still feels that it's a tool that can be used to alert us to terrorist acts before they occur." He added, "It's not a program that snoops into American citizens' privacy."
How can it not be a program that snoops into American citizens privacy? From past experience, I've found that the other issue is that once databases are available, they will be tapped for a variety of purposes not originally envisioned or intended.
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
Still, this can easily be sidestepped by the old intelligence trick of you watch our citizens, we'll watch yours, then trading details with a friendly country.
all your mail are not belong to us
Its nice, in this era of DMCA, corporate powerbroking, lobbyists, and general mistrust of government persons (as either incompetent or something more devious) to see our constitutional values and the system of checks and balances showcased positively.
I guess I should say thank you.
I'll quite happily turn myself into the nearest police station and admit that I earn money working from home whilst looking at hot girl-on-girl, aided by my generic Viagra and playing with 12 inch weener.
Finally! The black car in front of my house is going to leave!
Posting as directed.
One down, three to go ...
Perhaps they missed the article in the New York Times last night?
I hate to be a pretentious citer of the Times, but come on. The guy who wrote the article found in the Star-Tribune is a writer for the New York Times! So just cite the original paper.
So, here's the link to the original: http://nytimes.com/2003/02/12/politics/12PRIV.html
I am guessing that this program is going to come back soon under another name. I bet the backers are going to be the same.
From what I read in the article, the house and senate have voiced oposition. But it goes on to say, "The only obstacles to the provision becoming law would be the failure of the conferees to reach agreement on the overall spending bill in which it is included, or a successful veto of the bill by President Bush." Looks as if it could still go through.
I was worried about people seeing my love letters to CowboyNeal. That he NEVER RESPONDS TO
This smacks of being "tossed a bone" email is nothing as far as I'm concerned the privacy violations begin with the phone (cell and land line) and go to what I buy.
Those are the things I care about.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
It could link such different electronic sources as video feeds from airport surveillance cameras, credit card transactions, airline reservations and records of telephone calls. The data would be filtered through software that would constantly seek suspicious patterns that says it all right there, guilty until proven innocent
it's an article about your online privacy, and you want slashdot to link to a site that requires registration...
OK BUDDY! KEEP ON TRUCK'N!
Oh sure, the government won't be snooping on our e-mail. That's just what they want you to believe! Lull you into a false sense of security while Ashcroft views each and every piece of porn spam filling your inbox.
Even if they don't look at it right now, they can always change the laws later and go back and read your e-mail then.
Storage is cheap, and tape is cheap. The one protection you might have is that they only have backups on tapes and that the tapes go bad after a few years. But if they back up onto optical media, they basically have a record of all your e-mails for all eternity.
Heck, I run a mail server and a backup server for my company. It's really handy when an IMAP user accidentally deletes an e-mail. I can just go back and restore that mailbox for them. Even for something a year old.
The point is, just because the law says you are safe this instant doesn't mean squat. All that you do is recorded. If you don't like that, then use something like nonymouse.com and/or PGP.
Has anyone actually accomplished anything through e-mail? (Other than enlarging appendages, of course)
;-)
I think this amounts to more of "ignoring the massive amounts of nothingness" than a privacy win
So close and yet so far from the world's perfect ID number
...the Bride of USAPATRIOT is on the sidelines, with Johnny Ashcroft and his minions rooting for it. One step forward, four steps back. But hey, anything goes as long as you can make the public vagely believe, or even not dispute too much, that it'll help them get Osama Bin Laden.
Finding God in a Dog
If you think the Pentagon will actually stop this program, you're dreaming. They have had monitoring systems in place for years on all the major internet hubs. They don't give a damn what you have to say about it either.
is that i can't spell AT ALL and the editors fixed all my mistakes :)
About time we could score one for the good guys. Now, how do we keep this from coming back?
- -
Are you an SF Fan? Are you a Tru-Fan?
YATTA!!
www.samuraidreams.com - My Blog
www.samuraifiles.com - Get Some Videos Here
But there are still many, many other ways in which personal information is aggregated and analyzed, without the benefit of an oversight committee, or even significant regulation. So I'm still worried.
And I have another creeping worry: what if convicted felon Poindexter might have actually done some good with his (admittedly grotesque, and probably wildly impractical) database?
I mean, I'm always the first to howl about how those who give up freedom to gain a little security deserve neither, but does anybody else wonder about this? I mean, things are getting a little tense in the world these days.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by mere idiocy.
that corporations already monitor emails and internet activity of their employees where most people log on to the internet. This may not mean much except for those with AOL accounts.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. --Edmund Burke
well the FBI had all the info needed prior to 9/11, so now they will just have more info they can refuse to act on.
im almost not worried about the Feds doing anything, they are incapable of using the high quality info they have now, why would they if they had more info.
they are lazy beuracrats, and nothing, not every database networked together is going to change that
This can still be over-ridden by an executive order of the president... which sounds likely in the "name of national security" and our orange alert level.
[text removed by line eater v9.3 - thanks for shopping with the NSA!]
The action was praised by Democrats and Republicans and by outside groups on both the political right and left.
Nice to see some soundness of mind (for a change)
"Give a woman two glasses of wine and some pad thai, and they'll agree to just about anything." the Sports Guy
Lt. Cmdr. Donald Sewell, a Pentagon spokesman, defended the program, saying, "The Department of Defense still feels that it's a tool that can be used to alert us to terrorist acts before they occur." He added, "It's not a program that snoops into American citizens' privacy."
*cough* Bull$hit *cough*
Of course it "snoops" into American citizens' privacy, that's the primary mission of DARPA and TIA.
It's like saying the gun I'm pointing at you won't kill you.
They care about themselves. The executive branch is increasingly refusing to even CONSULT with Congress regarding these admittedly outrageous plans. But you'd be wrong to think that they're blocking this because they give a shit about your rights. They just want to be included... to make sure they have a hand in everything. In this case they're just exercising their right to refuse to fund ANY project in an attempt to get the WH to play ball with them. Otherwise they're going to take their ball and bat and go home, I guess.
'agreed not to allow email surveillance of American citizens'
Maybe they did it not in the interests of the public but simply because they don't want the FBI reading their email. It just seems more likely to me that, as a group, they are motivated more by self-interest than anything else.
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
From the article:
"One important factor in the breadth of the opposition is the fact that the project is headed by retired Adm. John Poindexter. Several members of Congress have said he is an unwelcome symbol because he was convicted of lying to Congress when he was President Ronald Reagan's national security adviser. That his conviction was reversed on the grounds that he had been given immunity for the testimony in which he lied did not mitigate congressional opinion, they said."
Oh, suuuure you promise it wouldn't be used to violate citizens' privacy. We believe you.
Just when I thought that the United States was starting to fall into an unabortable tailspin to a fascist's wet dream, I see this article and my faith in the American Way has been restored.
Not totally restored, mind you. That will happen when King George II is dethroned. But this is a very good thing for all those out there who still believe in democratic/republican Constitutional American government.
But still. Viva Americana!
I have a middle-eastern last name, does that mean I'm going to be watched?
I would say more, but I'm liable to start on a rant that could start a whole mess of arguments I'm not interested in pursuing.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Gee, I don't know. Perusing the papers over the past couple of decades that seems to be one of the things they're pretty well stocked up on in Washington.
Hell, they've got so much of it they even let their cigars in on the excess action.
KFG
Look, we PROMISE not spy on your email.++
++All promises are null and viod.
Look, these guys passed the Patriot Act, the Patriot Act II is on the way. Seeing little token announcements doesn't make up for writing laws in secret.
If they really are concerned for people's safety, they'll concede they are unable to protect us, and lift all gun laws so we can protect ourselves without their interference.
If this isn't enough of a crisis to lift gun ownership restrictions, then this isn't a large enough crisis to suspend constitutional rights.
Doesn't that make sense? they're telling us to buy duct tape and plastic now. Is that the best they can offer, telling us to roll ourselves up in tape and plastic and wait to die?
The price of liberty is eternal vigilance. Most of us are snoozing while Big Brother is hatching all sorts of nefarious plots to own us.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
And this is redundant why? I see nothing similar in posts above. And this is a time-honored trick that intelligence agencies use to get around limitations in their charters.
i was under the impression that you cannot prosecute people for acts committed before they were made a crime. anyone have any info on that?
That's reminds me of the plot to "Deep Throat".
You see, Linda Lovelace has a condition where her clit is in her throat, and she can only cum while giving head. And the man's wang has to be at least 8" to reach it.
So she meets this guy and they fall in love, but she tells him "the man I marry has to have an 8 inch cock".
He's all upset and going "oh no, oh no, I'm only 4 inches from happiness"
So he goes to the doctor to see if anything can be done.
He comes back and he's all excited.
He whips out his footlong and goes "The doctor says I can have it cut down to whatever size I want!!!!!"
If you read the article, how much more additional funding is needed? The equipment is already purchased, the systems are in place. Yes, they need to pay for expansion, and upkeep, (In other words the rest of the ROI), but that usually is much easier to get than the initial purchase.
Frightning indeed
Blah Blah Blah.
This is a good step!
I just got done writing 4 letters to my Congressmen about the Pariot Act 2 and war with Iraq. I know it is easier to post online about how something should be done, but it only took about an hour to go out, get stamps and envelopes, and write.
Perhaps take this as a chance to thank your Senator/Representative for voting against this (if they did!), and maybe even let them know your views on the Patriot Act 2, etc.
Find your Senator
Find your Representative
,
faeryman
but this acticle only says a provision has been made that the surveillance information is not to be used against American Citizens and the bill is likely to pass unless Bush vetoes it or the spending is not approved.
The only obstacles to the provision becoming law would be the failure of the conferees to reach agreement on the overall spending bill in which it is included, or a successful veto of the bill by President Bush.
Is therefore safe to assume the Pentagon feels entitled to surveil the rest of the worlds population on the off chance they may spot a terrorist at some point ? I'm not trying to flame here but the article seemed a little short on fact and I am unclear as to the levels of surveillance the bill supports in its current form. If I understand it the overall plan has not actually been killed, just subjected to more congressional oversight and currently exempts American Citizens
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
According to a slightly more inclusive NYTimes article I read on this earlier today, one of Iowa's senators - Charles Grassley - co-sponsored the bill. I wrote him a letter this morning thanking him for it. It's the first time ever I've felt like I had a reason to do so.
I appreciated his quote from the article,
"Protecting Americans' civil liberties while at the same time winning the war against terrorism has got to be top priority for the United States. Congressional oversight of this program will be a must as we proceed in the war against terror. The acceptance of this amendment sends a signal that Congress won't sit on its hands as the TIA program moves forward."
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do.
-> And I have another creeping worry: what if convicted felon Poindexter might have actually done some good with his (admittedly grotesque, and probably wildly impractical) database? I mean, I'm always the first to howl about how those who give up freedom to gain a little security deserve neither, but does anybody else wonder about this? I mean, things are getting a little tense in the world these days. - So Obviously you missed the entire point of Franklin's quote. Go ahead, give up your freedom.. See if it does anything to deter terrorists, or if you ever get it back.
Greeeeeeeeeeat. I LUV this country.
You are the RIAA in which case feel free to not only look at web traffic but look at peoples HD's..
In most of the world we call different standards for different classifications "different standards".
Not double standards.
Uh... not in my "most of the world". Not in Webster's Dictionary's "most of the world" either:
One group would be americans, another group would be foreigners. Double means you have two specific standards and the contradiction is when you purport them to be general.
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson
Saddam would just execute them anyways. After they're raped and tortured to his liking, that is.
Do you realize Iraq's regime actually has government-licensed rapists? They have little ID cards that read 'official violator of women' with saddams little official seal on it. If you oppose Saddam, they come and rape your mother/wife/daughter.
Anyone who defends the current Iraqi government on 'moral' grounds is a hypocritical asshole. Like the French government (which has 4 billion dollars invested in Saddam and his promise to allow them access to southern oil fields).
All of my friends have been asking me why I keep randomly throwing spy USCOI Mena bluebird virus Sears Tower electronic surveillance Vince Foster White Water ASPIC industrial espionage Semtex CBNRC Mossad Juiliett Class Submarine all these strange words into my emails. It's from spook, a military asset class struggle AUTODIN Mafia MDA genetic cryptographic South Africa Crypto AG keyhole Rubin Medco eavesdropping Chobetsu little emacs script that adds high-risk words to my emails. The theory is, the extra traffic of false-positives will overwhelm any Steve Case North Korea Cohiba computer terrorism PGP SCUD missile AIMSX ARPA CISU arrangements class struggle chameleon man ISEC security espionage effort by the government to gamma Uzi FIPS140 bemd assassinate CDMA ANDVT Elvis USCODE 22nd SAS threat Bletchley Park colonel industrial espionage csystems monitor email traffic.
Does that mean I can stop doing this now? My coworkers think I chameleon man SWAT PGP JFK ANZUS top secret Cohiba USCODE Delta Force ASDIC virus assassination Noriega World Trade Center cryptanalysis have Tourettes.
No I'm not trolling.
What scares me about all this is that in the future they can start this activity by just repealing the legislation that prohibits this surveillance in the first place. Someone needs to step up and get a consensus that this is flat-out unconstitutional and declare it as such, and make it clear that this kind of surveillance will never be allowed. Furthermore, anyone who proposes such a program should be expelled from the House or the Senate for violating their oath.
--they lied about not knowing about patriot act 2, and they are slipping in various provisions of it inside other unrelated bills. The email surveillance will go on same as you can imagine. This is typical government triple speak. It's getting pretty weird out in dotgov sieg heil land.
I was hoping to send some nice emails in arabic like:
Jihad to Microsoft! Linux has risen in an explosive blaze of fury! I like VX works. Food tastes good with ricin it. Death to BUSH using new hedge trimmers. 90% off swedish made penis enlargers! (Which is what they're really looking for)
I'm not a real doctor, but I recommend beer.
that all house and senate members who voted this way use email as their private illicit affair communication medium of choice. ;)
We all know the US monitors its citizens like it or not. the problem comes when this information has to be used in court. It is not admisable as evidence if the information was gathered unlawfully. This is the reason they are trying to get it passed as a bill.
http://www.computerbytesman.com/tia/
(Link for creepy logo only! Well, the cached pages are kind of interesting too.)
If you read carefully the NYT article you linked above, you'll notice the following:
"Now, without a new law specifically authorizing its use and a new, specific appropriation to pay for it, the program could not be used against United States citizens."
This little bit of news made my entire day, and I think it should make yours too
The military thinks that this is not a violation of privacy? Are they the most gullible of their own propaganda targets or driven by some other means? We need to remain vigilent all right, but more against the potential tyrants on our own shores who threaten privacy and personal liberties. Those who have the ability to influence our government to deprive us of liberty are the most dangerous of all, and security at the price of freedom merely costs us both.
As long as there is a Second Amendment, there will always be a First Amendment.
...the shipping confirmation for my Total Information Awareness thong.
Send your friends messages of love at fuck-you.org
So, American agencies have some limitations on how they may spy on American citizens. Likewise UK agencies may not spy on UK subjects. Fair enough, until those two agree to swap notes, so US spies on Brits (freely and legally) and the Brits spy on the yankees (freely and legally).
I think we need some international treaty, on the level of the Geneva convention, that limits the sharing of "intelligence" information to the level that would have been legal to obtain if it had been done by local authorities. And strong (death?) penalties to those who break the convention.
Well, I am (still?) allowed to dream...
That's right, folks!
They can't spy on us with TIA! We've defanged those Echelon-using, Carnivore-having, keylogger-installing, SSN-using, draft-registering, gun-tracking, census-taking government agents! Our Fourth Amendment rights are intact!
Go Congress!
So now they are not even going to admit they read our e-mail?
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
If he really wants to read my email, I'm going to sign up for all the pr0n spam I can get. Let that puritanical a$$hole freak show and his Christian Soldiers(TM) sort through all the live cams, teen fetishes, fisting sessions, and goatse.cx pics they can get :)
"You done taken a wrong turn."
-Bill McKinney, in Deliverance
One thing we've seen, is that terrorists are not stupid. Does Lt. Cmdr. Sewell really think that terrorists will communicate important details through e-mail? I suppose that if the threat of being discovered is there, it's less likely to be used, but there are varied ways of communicating that are not easy to track.
What worries me is that U.S. 'intelligence,' is taking the view that technology (and the invasiveness that comes with it) will offer a panacea to the current terrorist threat. I'm probably not the first to remind anyone that even WITH all the technology currently utilized by the US military, it has still been unable to bring down a man who lives in caves.
I agree with you...it's not a question of if, but when the current data surveillance/collection efforts will be repurposed to suit some other, unrelated interest.
We won one... holy god WOOTAH!
Apparenlty few read the article (including the poster) before replying.
If all take a moment to read any of the 3 articles published today reporting the conferees agreement, it should be clear that the agreement does not prohibit surveillance of electronic communication between US citizens.
The agreement addresses the use of the data collected in prosecuting citizens and includes congressional oversight of further funding and reasearch but does not prohibit the evesdropping.
Whatever it takes to make the message feel more credible to the reader. Propoganda is flying fast and heavy, everywhere. A magic 8 ball might be an information superhighway compared to all the crap groing around these days.
qANQR1DBwU4DFRm5nWRHfUAQCACvS5Q/HAkmsluEsbKSFhwvo
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----
No.
I'm not tense. I'm just terribly, terribly, alert.
i couldn't recall the term. the mods should have upped your post, it's much more informative.
Obligatory This is a good thing?
SCO to Hell
The article seems a bit weird.
Doesn't the house propose laws, then vote on weather or not they should be sent to the senate, where they are voted upon to become law? Isn't this how it's been done for over 200 years in the US?
Granted, it's really hard to pass a law if either the house OR the senate are in disagreement. Of course, it can be voted in if there's an overwhelming majority in the other direction. Of course, given the state of American political parties, that would be highly unlikely.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
While this may seem like a victory for personal privacy, lets wait until the war starts to be sure it sticks.
Congress has been known to often go back on their decisions, when the american peoples rights are concerned... and rarely the correct direction.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
If you look back at the founding of the CIA, congress voted against that. Didn't stop it being established. TIA will probably just get re-named and put into some existing department.
I really don't get it when it comes to the big fuss over this Total Information Awareness. The structure to do it is already in place and it comes in two forms, AOL and AIM. All the government has to do is set up an account, add everyone to their buddy list and hire some goons to check away messages, you always know where people are by their away messages. How easy is this, and it's free too!
Yeah. The safest place to live in the world used to be Romania. One in four people were thought to be secrete police informers. That means at least one person in *every* family. Is this the road the USA is heading with "homeland security" and all?
-- Free software on every PC on every desk
Negotiators? What is this, a hostage crisis?
Note to the humor impaired: The above is a joke
Uh, you got it the other way around. The "provision" is what would prevent TIA from being used against Americans.
God gave liberty to all humans. I dont see how innocent people deserve to be spied on. Not being American doesnt make you subhuman.
How is it fair?
I believe the whole reason for privacy being put in the constitution was to secure God given human liberties and to prevent wrongful harrassment, suffering, and persecution of the innocent.
Anyway, the "kill 'em all let God sort them out" approach did help a lot of civilizations survive for a while I suppose. But I dont see it in anybody's national interest to go to hell.
I was thinking about this this morning after my mom called up and was worried because bush wanted everyone to have 3 days of supplies. This is probably what it felt like to live in the 50's. The old duck, and cover.
Anyway, What I am saying is that now only is this the new cold war, but the Old Cold War Warriors are back witha vengence. Rumsfield, McNamara.
The only good thing I can see about all of this is that the country will experience another revolution (like the 60's following the 50's) and maybe this action that congress took is a first step.
I would like to hear comment from the rest of you
Sigs are dangerous coy things
It's offtopic to say that I posted this same story last month. Then why isn't it offtopic for someone to say "I also found this very interesting when I read it today on various sites. Kudos to /. for enlightening us boobs."?
/. editors suck, and the other kisses up.
Essentially both say they already saw the same news. But, one points out
Your argument doesn't wash. If the U.S. bugged every cavein Afghanistan, they would have found him. Now that we don't know what country he is in, we just need to bug every place in the Middle East and a few other locations. Technology can solve everything for us, we just have to make better use of it. By trying to inhibit TIA, you are inhibiting our country's ability to defend itself and make this world better.
President Bush has ordered that no one be allowed to communicate by e-mail, since that is a tool that can be used by terrorists.
Furthermore, the president has drafted a bill to ammend the constitutional right to free speech, as that is another major tool frequently employed by terrorists who seek to develope weapons of mass destruction. Henceforth, only communications approved by the Department of Homeland Security will be allowed by law.
"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
America can spy on foreign nationals. If foreign nationals spy on Americans then all we need is for the Pentagon, CIA, NSA, TIA, et al to have a "friendly" relationship with a foreign country and to "cooperate" in "ongoing" "terrorist" investigations.
VOILA TIA gets info on American Citizens --- indirectly.
what if convicted felon Poindexter might have actually done some good with his (admittedly grotesque, and probably wildly impractical) database?
OK, let's say we remember just two things about Poindexter. One, he's a liar. Two, he knows sod all about how email works.
So, what are the odds of him inadvertently doing some good?
Off-topic, but I hadn't seen that episode of The Twilight Zone, so here's a synopsis for others who haven't:
TVGuide: "March 4, 1960: The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street: Total power failure in a neighborhood sparks suspicions that it was caused by an alien invasion -- and that one walks among them."
Here is a reasonably good synopsis.
And now, on-topic: Terrorists target governments, not citizens. However, the best way to attack a government is to let other people do it for you, and the best people to do that are the citizens of that country. The IRA was after the British government. The 9/11 terrorists were after the US government. The civilians are a means, not an end. (I should, however, note that there may be some exception with respect to Israel and Palestine, but don't regard this topic too highly, as it's only here so at least some of my post is on-topic.)
Sigs are like bumper stickers.
Osama bin laden most likely does not use outlook for important communications. Saddam Hussein most likely does not use POP for his troop movement orders. Kim Jong Il is probably not notified of the latest capabilities of his missiles via SMTP. For all the 40% of america haters on this site, GWBush and mr cheney also are not going to deploy any troops via Eudora.
Just like the commercials that show 14 year old pot smokers supporting terrorism, and the nuts that think SUVs contribute to terrorism moreso than Saddam...
Some in the government are blowing certain issues way out of proportion. No self respecting criminal would ever do his nefarious work through e-mail. Monitoring e-mail for terrorism is like monitoring kazaa for legal mp3s. Its not gonna happen.
Thank 'whatever you believe in' that there are enough informed legislators to vote against such impotent wastes of money.
I hope I'm not the first to remind you that the "man who lives in caves", whom the US has been "unable" to bring down, hasn't been seen for about two years. Interestingly enough, it was about two years ago that the US military chose to use three of its (small-num) daisy-cutter FAE munitions on one site in one day.
Now, that's not to say the guy's successors aren't willing to use a set of pre-recorded tapes (even a cave-dweller could have guessed in late 2000, that there'd eventually be US troops in $COUNTRY, for many values of $COUNTRY, and to record a set of messages accordingly) in order to convey messages to other enemy cells.
But the guy himself? No fucking way. The total lack of video, and the ambiguity of the ramblings in the audio, makes him about as alive as Nat King Cole was when he "recorded" that execrable "Unforgettable" duet with his daughter, which is even less alive than JFK was when they filmed Forrest Gump.
Allow me to rant for a bit:
'Ee's not plannin'! 'E's passed on! This man in a cave is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!' E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in pieces! If the shock wave hadn't splattered 'im all over the walls, 'e'd be pushing up the daisies, or at least the daisy-cutters! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-MAN-IN-A-CAVE!!
Your required movie watching for this weekend: "Weekend at Bernie's"
No - the whole point of using computers is so that we can achieve the same safety/security afforded in a state like Romania or East Germany, but without wasting 25% of our population in economically nonproductive spying.
As for Ben Franklin - there's two parts people seem to forget: First, it's essential liberties, not even the tiniest liberties. If you wanna claim Ben's approval, you're going to have to ask him what he meant by "essential", which is gonna be difficult. As it stands, "essential" is a loophole big enough to drive the proverbial flogged-to-death horse through.
But second - and this is a horse that hasn't gotten so much as ten lashes with a wet noodle yet - is his contention that such people deserve neither security nor liberty; fair enough, but the world is full of people who arguably have things they don't deserve.
OK, Ben, suppose I give you the benefit of the doubt. By consistenly re-electing representatives who took (a very few of our) "liberties" in exchange for offering us (a small measure of added) "security", we've abdicated any right we ever had to either.
But does that mean we won't get both, whether we "deserve" them or not? I mean, there's a pretty vocal minority of the population that claims we also don't "deserve" to have such a large proportion of the world's produced wealth. Or to consume such a large proportion of the world's generated energy. Or to drive big fat rollover-prone SUVs to McDonald's while half the world starves. And yet, we still do. In fact, we frickin' 0wn!
It's just as likely, IMNSHO, that even though (even if we accept Ben's view) we're no longer deserving of liberty or security, we may just end up retaining both anyways.
Pointy's resume says it all: "finds innovative solutions to difficult problems". What's to innovative about lying?
=brianThank goodness for the handful of sensible people in Congress. When the Patriot Act sailed through with only one dissenter in the Senate (Feingold/Wis.) I wondered whether I had lost my mind.
... one at a time ... over a period of weeks. When you find yourself wondering whether you're taking a risk by opening the mail or merely standing outside, you have problems. You have terror.
You might point out that we have had no real acts of domestic terrorism since September 2001. True.
You probably don't live in the DC area, but we remember the anthrax attacks following 9/11. Still unsolved, aren't they? Then we had these bastard snipers killing a dozen unsuspecting people
Mentioned rarely, these attacks were likely all the work of Americans. So was Oklahoma City. The closest thing to a 9/11 follow-up was the "shoe bomber" Reid, a British subject. (Apparently they're worried about him in jail.) Hunting for "suspicious foreigners" would have done no good in any of these. Nor would the unpatriotic Patriot Act. I'm not certain what would have helped, but I am sure they're headed in the wrong direction, enacting the longtime wish list of certain interest groups without regard to the present problem.
We don't want to live in a police state, both because it would suck and because the terrorists would love it.
Now we have a code red or orange or tangerine, I forget, isn't that dandy. I understood the defcon system better.
Doesn't anyone else get the joke?
He shoulda been President...
Your local BOFH is still allowed by the EULA/TOS you signed to tape your emails up in the window of the server room with the dirty words hilited.
it hardly affects privacy of the American people.
I guess it's a good thing no Americans ever use the "international communications lines."
Maybe no real American would wish to communicate privately with any foreigners. Or what about Americans who are so disloyal as to accept employment with offshore corporations? Or foreign offices of American companies. What's the theory here?
I just wanted to say, I think .sig, and I look forward to having to explain it to people. Thanks.
going along with your government right or wrong isn't patriotism. It's treason.
is an outstanding turn of phrase. I just took it for my email
-- 'intellectual property' is oxymoronic
Who needs Congressional funding? Poindexter can just smuggle drugs instead. It worked for the CIA and Las Contras, whom Poindexter was inextricably associated with during the free-flowing cocaine days of the 1980's. But hey, I can see why nobody remembers any of this, what with the more important stories like the President's blow job, the numerous baby-fell-in-the-well stories, O.J., Jon Benet Ramsey, Martha Stewart, etc...
"I think all foreigners should stop interfering in the internal affairs of Iraq"
-- Paul Wolfowitz, 7/21/2003
They'll continue the project by funding it through the "black budget." Congress doesn't even know how much it is. Hell, the Federation of American Scientists had to sue the CIA just to get same to release the 1997 aggregate amount appropriated. This was after the CIA rebuffed FAS's request for the 1947 number!
Make no mistake about it, they're going to continue developing this project even if Congress defunds it, if they haven't fully implemented it already.
Thank god it was 'only' a matter of (perceived) national security.
If there had been PAC money behind it, it not only would have passed but the Supreme court would have put it up next to the bible. All in all, it's a reason to be cheerful.
To mail me, remove the 'mailno' from my email addy.
"Yeah. It smells, too..."
They are just taking baby steps.
testing the waters. de sensitizing us to their scary proposals.
lying, releasing false facts, and using those false fact to justify their actions.
If you tell yourself something over and over again, you will start to believe it.
nannyism, i can see it. can you? it is ruing this country. This is not the same country i grew up in.
I'll quote the first paragraph:
Does that answer your specific questions?
You can see it here. Also, there's lots of encrypted communications programs or file transfer programs out there, if you feel the need for it. Stenograhy works too. Bin Laden was sending people to aviator school. Why wouldn't he be sending someone to do a CS degree in encryption and stenography too?
You may keep strong encryption out of the hands of the general public, because they have no real interest in it. But for a determined group, the cat is out of the bag many years ago. Throwing together some AES + SHA + Diffie-Hellman reference code I could probably make a secure tool before the end of business today. And I'm hardly an expert on the subject...
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Does this mean Microsoft and Aol/Intel are not going to send me all that money for the emails I've been forwarding for them??
Man, you're so cynical.
Next you're going to tell me that the US will export people to Syria or Egypt for torture so as to avoid the pesky liberals at home whining about human rights.
Come on, get serious, Congress would never violate the US constitution so blatantly.
By the way, has anyone noticed that the US constitution never says anything about "citizens" having rights, just "people"? When did all immigrants suddenly become non-"people"?
"Good god. THINK about who you're talking about. GWB IS and idiot."
The First Law of Slashdot: When insulting someone's intelligence, you are required to fuck up your grammar or spelling, thus making the entire statement Alanis-ironic.
Yes, but what remains to be determined is this: Does that fact that we have cut him off from many of the conveniences of technology make him more or less of a threat? Potentially his living in the cave is going to make him less effective, but it may also make him very innovative. We may be creating the Sardaukar (or the Fremen) of today.
(It's a Dune reference, but if I had to tell you that, we're probably already watching you.)
Congress is just upset that they didn't think of it first.
The price of freedom is eternal litigation.
The "Senate provision in the omnibus spending bill" to which the article was referring is the Wyden amendment (SA 59) at http://www.cdt.org/security/usapatriot/030117amend ments.pdf
The article completely failed to mention the super-easy opt-out provision this amendment provided to Bush that allows him to continue the Total Information Awareness program without any reports to Congress just by certifying to Congress in writing that stopping it would "endanger the national security of the United States".
Whether you agree or disagree with the need for the TIA program, it's very hard to disagree that Bush would be unwilling to tell Congress we need it for "national security."
Stenogra[p]hy works too.
It's especially effective when your secretary has really bad handwriting.
I'm hardly an expert on the subject
You don't say.
The ECHELON system has been doing this for years so this rejection makes little difference.
Here's some background taken from the ECHELON FAQ at www.cipherwar.com:
The Scientific and Technical Options Assessment program office (STOA) of the European Parliament commissioned two reports which describe ECHELON's activities. These reports unearthed a startling amount of evidence, which suggests that ECHELON's powers may have been underestimated. The first report, entitled "An Appraisal of Technologies of Political Control," suggested that ECHELON primarily targeted civilians.
This report found that:
"The ECHELON system forms part of the UKUSA system but unlike many of the electronic spy systems developed during the cold war, ECHELON is designed for primarily non-military targets: governments, organisations and businesses in virtually every country. The ECHELON system works by indiscriminately intercepting very large quantities of communications and then siphoning out what is valuable using artificial intelligence aids like Memex to find key words. Five nations share the results with the US as the senior partner under the UKUSA agreement of 1948, Britain, Canada, New Zealand and Australia are very much acting as subordinate information servicers.
I wouldn't say that all terrorists are not stupid. Remember Reed that shoe bomber guy? If he had just gone to the bathroom to light his shoe, he probably would have blown the plane up. But instead he tried to do it from his seat. He was definitely stupid, and thank god for that.
Computers don't make mistakes. What they do, they do on purpose.
Good, this tells John ASScroft and John Poindexter to FUCK OFF!!!
"And from this day on, all the bathrooms in the kingdom shall be known as...JOHNS!"
-- King Richard from "Robin Hood: Men In Tights"
IGB: More fun than eating oatmeal!
By the way, you might want to check your facts
While slightly less scary, not a whole lot. The military (national guard during a state of non-emergency) still detained her, for refusing to submit to an illegal search of her posessions ("Our Policy" does not equal "legal", no matter how much a given corporation tries to blur that fact).
But, I will admit that I evidently had accepted facts from an unreliable source. Bad me! (not sarcasm).