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Executing a Mass Departmental Exodus in the Workplace?
rerunn asks: "The recent story about the consultants from JBOSS walking out couldn't have had better timing. I'll save the drama and cut to the scenario: You and a few close co-workers make up the core grunts of 'the department'. The company relies heavily on your department for many services, some of which, other departments cannot provide. You like your job, it provides great satisfaction. Suddenly, the company realizes its in deep financial shit, and starts making cut backs. This impacts the department. You suddenly find yourself working 50-60 hour weeks, put on call with no compensation, given unreasonable amounts of work and generally treated like dirt. You get the feeling that the company is just going to take advantage of you no matter how and what happens. You get together with the rest of the department for a 'fsck this company' meeting and decide to walk out. Have you ever done this?? (We are so close!) What was the outcome?"
Six months of unemployment...
On a comedy special years ago, Bill Cosby quoted parents telling kids, "I brought you into this world, I can take you out, and I can make another one that looks just like you."
With today's job market I'm afraid the company will just replace you with people that are hungry for work.
I could be wrong, but I've always lived by the mantra "better safe, than sorry."
Mike
Sounds great.
Why face the job market alone when you can face it with all your co-workers?
---- I've fallen, and I can't get up.
...if you don't have a place to go, suck it up, find another job, THEN quit. You're crazy to walk out on your only opportunity these days.
Was getting together with a guy from the cold line (I was a dishwasher) and walking out of a Mexican restaurant after telling the manager we were going in search of the perfect taco...
Trouble making decisions? Just flip for it.
If the company really is in 'deep financial shit' then your action could be the final straw. And if you're as important as you say you are then your action will have a severe impact on the company at this difficult time. I guess you need to ask yourself what you feel is more important: the well-being of the company (and your source of employment) or your personal pride? Perhaps you ought to think about how lucky you are to even HAVE a job right now.
You'd better have something lined up to move into, because you will have certainly burned bridges at your current employer. Plus, how will you spin this situation to prospective employers during the interview process?
Q: So, why did you leave your last position?
A: Things got rough, they treated us like dirt, I left.
This will raise doubts in the mind of the interviewer as to whether you're a person who can help an organization weather tough times...
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
We haven't done that, yet, but our concern right now is like everyone else: unemployment. A few of us are thinking of putting together a business plan to start a new company, but that's going nowhere fast. We don't yet have that one great, unique, amazing software idea to start a company. So we're all stuck waiting it out until the market's better and we can move on or we finally come up with that great idea.
Developers: We can use your help.
Europa Endlos
Is to collectively refuse to do any work, until you get fired or laid off.
You can't collect unemployment when you quit, you know.
Would you rather be out on your own looking for another job than continuing to turn up every day and take what is being dished out? Consider that despite the angry words of your colleagues, they may not step up when the crucial moment comes, and you alone may be the one leaving. Is that still okay?
Do you have savings to take 6 months with no income, or maybe shares you can sell to cover that period... because if you leave, it will be like leaving a relationship, you will be depressed, think and talk of nothing else for months, boring your friends and family until you get over it.
Is there any upward future for you in the company, ie, is continuing to work there acting as an investment for you that may pay off at a later time? If there is some hope of a career path, given how you are treated by people at that level, is that somewhere you want to be? Given the trajectory of the company, is there going to be a later time for this to pay off in?
Can you get out without dropping innocent colleagues in the shit?
That kind of thing is cool to talk about, but it is like starting a union. If someone in the department doesn't walk out, then you're out of work and you've handed them a promotion. So stick together. Everyone should hand in their resignation at the same time. Better impact that way, anyhow.
Information wants to be $1.98/lb.
Are you planning on walking out with your coworkers and forming a company of your own? Because, if you're not, there's no point in doing it in unison. Sure, you might wake someone at the company up, but more than likely they won't care, and even if they did, it's too late for you. Meanwhile, you're left holding the bag, as it were, with no job.
If the situation is that bad, you should do the normal route: look for a job while keeping yours. If/when you find another job, you quit. Your coworkers can all do the same. Things'll work out much better if you only bail when you have a parachute, and, no matter how bad your job is, it's better than no job at all.
A close friend of mine worked for a local ISP. The ISP got bought by a bigger company. The new management decided to replaces all unix mail-systems with MS Exchange.
...
The complete technical department from the "old" left the company within days.
Management will never learn
oh i don't know, say a million different outcomes for a million different people. most likely long bouts of unemployment. Just because you can program (or think you can) does not mean you can run a company. next stop: dose of reality.
You work for EDS?
Back during the big ol' bubble of the late nineties, I worked with a development team that came up with everything that end-users interacted with. Back then, we were doing just as you described- endless hours, little or no compensation... but we all still believed in the dream that was "we'll be millionaires soon enough". Thinking back, we were all in a perfect position to leave and start something on our own.
NDAs and other such things in your contract might not let you break off "en masse". That is something to be careful of. Make sure you don't have contractual limitations or obligations that could prevent you from making a clean break. Using your collective knowledge and contacts, I think you all have a pretty good shot at making it on your own.
And there is no looking back. The pay sucks, but the freedom is priceless (atleast until all my credit cards are max'd out). I wouldn't go back if my life depended on it.
Look - if you are going to jump ship -GREAT! Only be a little smart and find another job before you jump.
I know it would give you great satisfaction to flip off the boss and walk as a group. Yet, the economic reality today says that is a really dumb idea. If you don't like your current position, at least have another place to land before you toss it.
Further, it is HIGHLY suggested that even though you don't like the place, that you don't burn bridges. What are the chances you are going to work with some of the managers/people above you in the future (answer from 25 years in the business - 100%) Leave gracefully and your career will do better in the long run.
Have you compiled your kernel today??
I do know of a group that pulled it off very nicely, and they - - as well as the former (university)employer were, and are, happy. The spinoff group was able to take on consulting jobs while, at the same time, selling their services back to the university. The university was happy because they no longer had to offer benefits, do payroll, etc. After more than two years, this arrangement is still working out for everyone involved. Sorry, I can't give names, but the university in question is a top-rated one in the southeast, and the IT group in question primarily provided web and data management services.
It's only funny until someone gets hurt. Then, it's hilarious.
discarded Pizza boxes are an inexpensive source of Cheese.
What are you going to suggest next, labor unions? Do you think that you and your buddies are entitled to be treated like human beings?
If you were a real man, you'd volunteer to work 80 hour weeks and come up with a plan to replace all of your colleagues with contract developers from India and Romania.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Had this happen not too long ago. Simple We walked out & formed our own company. The old employer realized that they could not stay afloat without us and contracted us do do the same job as before through our new company. The results - Limited work hours (read 40-50 hours/week instead of the insane bull of 70 to 80), More money (even after we pay taxes, FICA, etc.), our own company (we hold equal shares), and more contracts from other places that needed the same kind of service. The down side - we where living in VERY thin budget for ab out 3 months while it all got setup and settled down.
Gato
now i read slashdot all day.
this sig steers like a cow. and i can prove it
I suppose that it depends on whether you're walking out for good, or just as a work stoppage to show them you're important. I'll assume from the title, you're talking the former.
The problem with the latter is that if the company really is in trouble, you'll be putting the nails in its coffin.
In this job market, I would personally not be too excited about the prospect of a job hunt. I've got friends who have been actively looking for over 6 months - it's kinda rough.
Another thing to consider is that some might just decide to let you all walk, and feign some form of loyalty to the company... it's a win-win for them. If the company survives, their "loyalty" will be rewarded, and if it crashes and burns, they will be eligible to collect unemployment while those who quit will not.
(just some random thoughts)
The Digital Sorceress
Why should you organize yourselves just to quit. A better solution is to quietly agree to stop working so hard. Perhaps you could slowly start leaving earlier and/or coming later until you get back to 40 hrs/week.
Just a thought..
nohup rm -rf ~/. >& zen &
Listen, with so many geeks like us out of work, some of us having been looking for 2 years now, walking out is a BAD thing. If you don't have another job lined up already, you might as well suck it up. if not, I am looking for work, as are others.
"My ship came in, but was bombed by terrorists in port and sank." - Me
My father is a 'big wig' in HR. We've seen many a strikes in the past.
Dealing with a union is nice, cause its a one-on-one arguement and you can get things moving that way.
But if everyone leaves in your situation, they need to know why you left, and who to talk to make things right.
Another point, during strikes, about 25% of the time, the people were simply replaced.
You are talking about a poor IT economy. Lots of unemployeed geeks that just want a job, even if its 50-60 hour weeks (as long as you can put food on the table).
The bottom line? Don't even think about doing this unless you are prepared not to come back.
You're better off just doing the work, and talking to management about compensation.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
What you're describing is a strike. If you do it right (start organizing the shop, aka unionize) your employer can't legally retaliate. Organizing for a union is also a pretty good way to get the Company's attention; most employers would much rather head off unionization by treating you well than have you organize and then force them to treat you well anyway.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
I just signed a contract saying that I wouldn't get together with others in the company and quit. If a bunch of you quit at once and the company can prove that you guys talked to each other about quiting it can do such things as, keep your last pay-check, sue you for damages, etc. I hope you didn't use your company email.
I have never understood why so many IT employees are afraid of forming a Union. There are limitations, like not geting as big of a raise during boom times. But you have more control over overtime, and standard set raises even during slow times. Is it just my percention of IT people being anti union or is it me?
probably this doesn't apply in your case but i think it is a good idea to double-check wheter you and your departement are really that important for the company or if the company just wants you to think you are important to make you work even harder (some form of motivation).
i used to work for a small software company and me and a few of my coworkers (basically half of the development departement) decided that it was time to move on. it was really hard to quit as the boss made promises and tried to persuade each one of us to stay telling us how important we were. well, eventually we all quit and quickly found new jobs and afaik all of us are happy with the new jobs - and guess what? the old company still exists and is better than ever, even during this economic crisis.
so, at least from my point of view the bottom line here is: if you feel it is time to move on, move on. this is your life and you have to take care of it, not your company. and it is not that unlikely that both sides will profit from that.
time is a funny concept
A number of years ago, I was working at a really innovative company. The technical chalenges were great etc... However, I and my fellow engineers began to realize that our immediate manager was a jerk (made false statements to management, political, concerned more with his image than the product).
One of us talked with the manager about these perceived shortcomings, and he reacted _very_ defensively and hostile. We then lost confidence we could improve his management style.
Two of our team quit and returned to their former company.
The rest of us were considering doing the same, but we liked the company. Instead of quitting, we went to our department head. We explained our problem, and why our peers had quit. We said, either the lying fellow goes or we go.
Two weeks later we had a new manager and were from then on as happy as clams.
This was a 'pre dot com boom' time, but I would do the same thing now if the problem reoccured. If your team is _really_ valuable, then the company will do what is necessary to keep you happy. If your team isn't that valuable, improve your skills and contribution until it is valuable.
Would you like to try to convince a judge and jury that these 'lazy' workers were fired because they refused to work unpaid overtime? Didn't think so.
--Dan
But don't go before getting another job.
Don't bother about people putting moral pressure on you, as I've seen in the postings before. That's quite unreasonable for two reasons.
First, if the company goes bankrupt, you'll need another job anyway, so the sooner you start looking, the better.
Second, it's not your responsability, but management's. You cannot be blamed for bringing the company to the point where it is now, so don't feel guilty about the consequences of your actions. Furthermore, somebody else fired you co-workers, and that should make you responsible? No.
There is another reasons why you might walk: it gives better job security to your current co-workers. The company will need them more than ever and will save a few bucks on your salary.
Good luck to you and the people in your company.
Good point TopShelf.
Combined with other people's comments that "You are replaceable"
You and your team might as well critique each other's resumes and start applying for jobs.
If you are walking out, its because you don't want to come back- not because you want them to treat you with respect. If you want to be treated with respect, ASK that you be treated with respect. If the response is a lot of Management BS (hopeful language but nothing concrete) you know that they aren't going to do anything about it. So send those resumes, line up a better jorb (homestar runner typo!) and then LEAVE.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
A group of us at my company just did this. It has had its problems. I haven't gotten my last paycheck because, just as we all believed, the company couldn't survive without us. The second effect is that I am now emotionally and economically linked to a group of people who, while not the enemy, I am growing sick and tired of seeing every day.
The biggest regret I have is an accomplishment that I would never put on a resume or mention in a job interview: I put a dying company out of its misery by being part of a staged walkout. I mean who would walk to talk about that at your next job? "If the company is in trouble, I the man to kill it dead."
My advice: don't do it. The thing you are suppose to do is get your work done and go home at 5:00pm. If they can't handle this then you will be fired which, believe it or not, will make you feel better than walkout in lockstep.
Find another job. Then leave. Convince your colleagues to do the same.
Solidarity is all well and good, but at the end of the day, the only reason any of you are working for this company is to get a paycheck at the end of the day. You don't actually owe each other anything.
If the company suffers (as it will after a mass wlakout) it doesn't help you. It harms them, with ne benefit to you at all, and the loss of your financial stability. It doesn't matter if they learn their lesson. If they improve, you don;t work there any more.
Admittedly, the other people will suffer even more through having to do your job if you walk out, but that will be short term. They can also find a new job. You can help each other out if you want. They can stiull choose to leave.
Just start claiming company property for "compensation" cuz you'll be at the bottom of the list when bankruptcy time comes.
Actions similar to what your considering can be an effective means of leveraging respect from employers. However, unless you have the organizational structure in place _before_ hand, what your contemplating will result in you (and some of your coworkers) losing your jobs and the company having a few rocky months.
The scenario your suggesting is trying to 'collectively bargain' with the company when you only have a 'collective' of one department.
Call up a CWA (communication workers of America) local in your area, organize your department and as many of the other company employees as you can to join the union. Take 6 months to build the organization and plan a collective action. This way you'll have support in other departments, and union support externally.
So anyway, my project manager, two other developers and I got sick of this and decided to start a company of our own. This was back in 1998. We got some funding and made a go at it. Not two days after we quit and started up the new company did we all get slapped with a lawsuit from the previous employer. The lawsuit alleges that we stole trade secrets from the previous employer, which was completely baseless. But, it accomplished the goal of putting a huge burden on us while we were just starting out.
Fast forward to 2003. We were recently forced into chapter 7 bankruptcy, partly due to the legal fees associated with the lawsuit, but also due to the fact that my previous project manager (who was the president at the new company) was one of the worst businessmen on this planet, despite being a great project manager. The legal system is slower than molasses - we still aren't scheduled to go to trial until July of this year - nearly five years after the lawsuit was first filed! There have been some depositions, hearings, rulings, and appeals along the way, but man has this thing dragged out! Needless to say there's not any money for them to win anyway due to the bankruptcy.
Overall, walking out and starting a new company was the greatest business decision I ever made in my life. I'm getting all sorts of offers to do contract work on the side, plus one of our customers at the new place hired me with a six-figure wage plus great benefits, and actually allowed me to write a no-compete into the employment contract. In addition, they have picked up an attorney for me and agreed to pay my legal fees in the lawsuit.
If I could go back, I'd still say that the lean years at the new company were all worth it. My only regret was not doing it sooner - I'm already 24 years old and I'm not going to live forever.
Most companies want to know when their employees are unhappy. Most companies will do something about thier unhappy employees because they realize that unhappy employees are unproductive.
You are the company. Be a team player. Don't go into a meeting with a manager/director/SVP/etc. making demands; help solve the problem by proposing a solution. You may have already tried some of this. That doesn't mean that you can't try again. If no one is responsive, then it may be time to move on.
But beware... The market is not good right now, and new employers will be less than enthusiastic about hiring someone who walked out on their last employer.
Good luck.
A clever person solves a problem, A wise person avoids it. -Einstein
These are called "yellow-dog contracts." They used to be illegal, but who knows whats going on these days. Thousands fought to earn these labor rights of ours, which we are letting slide away...
I was in a situation like this a few years ago, only the company wasn't in financial problems at all. We were posting a strong profit and higher-ups were taking nice bonuses. Meanwhile our bonus plan got trashed, we were working 70-80 hour weeks including stat holidays, and getting nothing for it. Also management was accepting contracts with deadlines we could not make without working double-time. After they asked us for the estimates and we gave them the correct amount of work.
We were in a position where our group of 5 developers were working with custom-built software. There was a ramp-up time of several months to get new people to the point where they could be productive developers. And of course no docs :) So if we left they would have forfeited on some large contracts and they had no hope of bringing in replacements.
We did the extra work for about 6 months, including getting screwed two quarters in a row on bonuses, before we took action. Instead of all quitting we simply announced that since the company refused to acknowledge our extra efforts on their behalf they would no longer get extra effort. We worked hard for our regular hours but no late nights, no weekend work, no coming in on holidays. Our lives all got a lot better and we still had jobs.
Of course that was in a market where we all knew that we could walk out the door any morning and have several job offers by the afternoon :)
See what the options you have are - take a good look at something that you've wanted to do, and see if there is an opportunity there. Sometimes, everone needs a change of scenery. Again, ensure that there is *somewhere* to go; you don't want to be the new bitch at McDonalds.
Be self aware, and honest with yourself - did you have a gravy job;, did you spend hours of company time trying to make the perfect paper clip crossbow? Is this job the best that you can hope for right now?
It seems to me that you would be better serving yourself (when it comes down to it, you have to pay *your* bills) to sit down and think:
1) Where am I going to go?
2) Am I just getting fired up (no pun intended), because of my coworkers?
3) How do I feel about the coworkers that I will be affecting?
4) Will this end in a firey gun battle?
Just be sure you are taking care of you, cause once rent, electricity, water, car payments, food, and cable bills start coming in, you will find yourself in a darkened apartment, with a can of spagetti-o's, wondering when you'll get used to taking cold showers.
Of course, if your Goth - then go for it!
Recently Iâ(TM)ve been in a similar situation and my opinion is: Donâ(TM)t bother to orchestrate some big event, just help each other to find other jobs. The negativity you bring on yourself isnâ(TM)t worth âoeTeachingâ management (In my experience, if the company is really in this position, management is too arrogant for communication from the working class to be effective). However many people joined together to find jobs seams to be quite effective and a very positive experience. My position currently stems from an interview a co-worker had, where he put the manager in contact with me. Potential employers find this sort of recommendation attractive I suppose. (And my former employer is currently looking about his building with a dazed look wondering what happened to all of us and how is going to deliver what he over sold in the first place)
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
I don't know about Walgreens, but Walmart has a long history of pulling crap like that.
Everyone is expendable. It is rare that a walk out hurts a company in the long run, especially if you are not part of a union that at least has some legal leg to prevent the hiring of others.
There are three certain outcomes. The first is that you will be out of work. The second is that if for some reason the company agrees with your demands, you will be replaced as soon as possible. The third is that you will never get a positive reference from this organization again, possibly hurting your chances for other work.
You're not too busy if you have time to post on slashdot and spend energy discussing this with your coworkers.
I would caution you against doing anything as a group. It is unlikely that your needs and motivation completely line up with those of the rest of the group.
Remember, all jobs stink. That is why we call this "work", after all.
Ultimately, you need to decide your needs, your career goals, whether you agree with the mission of the organization, and if your position in the organization lines up with what you want to do (or your path to get to what you want to do). If you decide its time to move on, move on. But move on with pride and in a way that respects the feelings of those that want to stay. You want the company to remember you as a good person who would be an asset to any organization, and not a person ranting as they go out the door.
Sleep is for the Weak
That's how I got out of a situation like this...
At the time, I wasn't in the IT deparment at my work, I was working in our Art Deparment, doing IT for ONLY the Macs and outputting printing film.
Well everyone knew I was way better at computers then the current Systems Admin. So everyone came to me with thier problems, PC or Mac... Since I wasn't getting paid the "IT" salary, I had enough of the abuse and constant interruptions. At the end I had 5 bosses!!!!
So I wrote a letter telling them how I felt, and how I have no intension of leaving or anything like that, but I wanted to be moved into the It department full time, where I'm must needed. And I didn't discuss any money at this point....
And you know what, they fired the current Sys Admin, and moved me into the IT deparment full time. And making tones of money......
It just goes to show you, that you NEED to be tackful, and be very careful and how you handle this.
I just expressed how I really felt. I told them the truth. If the company and position is worth it, they will understand...
It's left blank because I have nothing to say to you punks!
pooptruck
You also have to take into consideration that if this plan did work and they decide that they couldn't live without you now, that doesn't mean 6 months down the road they replace you with new people.
If this plan did work it would also make you all look like trouble-makers. They would please you now, to keep the business going, but then slowly hire new people (at a cheaper rate) to learn everything you do and simply replace you.
So perhaps you should rethink your plan. Remember, no one is untouchable. No one is unreplaceable. You may think this, but it's simply not true.
"Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it." - John Lennon.
"So why did you leave your last company?"
"They were treating me badly so I just walked out."
"How were they treating you?"
"They wanted more work hours and more time on call, because the company was going through some tough times."
"That was unacceptable to you? You weren't able to negotiate a better position?"
"Huh? We didn't do any negotiation, we just got together and all walked out."
"It must have been challenging to manage the changeover to a new team."
"Nah, we just all walked out together! Maximum disruption!"
"I see. Well, thank you for your time."
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
It is important to realize that we were effectively irreplacable (unique job-specific skills, nothing to do with computers). Or so we thought...
Three of us (not including myself) went ahead and set up a company, and offered our services to the larger company directly. The smaller company then started on a campaign of threats, allegations, lies, and FUD that would make Microsoft blush. The larger company used us as a lever for negotiating a better contract with the smaller company, then unceremoniously dumped us.
So would I do it again? Hell, yes. In fact I would do it sooner, and with less restraint. This is important to realize: if we had realized what was coming we would have been less galant towards our former boss (not keeping the systems going while we were setting up our new company, for example - the price would have been high, but it would also have put tremendous pressure on our boss). And we wouldn't have believed the (verbal) assurances the larger company gave us regarding our soon-to-be contract with them.
The story is far more complicated than this little message (I could write a book about that period), but the general idea I think is clear: we were in a bad situation, we fought, we lost, and we have no regrets.
Some lessons you may want to remember:
- Your former colleagues may suddenly turn into your worst enemies. They'll lie to you. They'll try to make you fail in all ways that count. And they may pretend they are still your friend while they are at it.
- Individual members of your group may be bribed by your former boss to come back into the fold, thereby bringing back all that irreplacable knowledge.
Are you ready to fight? Can you afford to lose? If so, go for it.
At my current job, when I got fed up, I went to my boss, and said "Look, this is not what I got into this business to do. Either find me some work like you promised me when I signed on, or, with no malice between us, I will seek employment elsewhere." Note, this was at one of the scariest times in the current depression, companies were imploding everywhere you looked, where as the company I am at is a stable, established business that isn't going away for a long time. The safe route would have been, "please sir, may I have another."
I ended up with a job that was more like what I wanted to do, and I got a big increase in salary. It was scary, though, I had made up my mind to leave if I didn't get what I wanted. Things are far from perfect now. (I'm still trapped in a big bureacracy and bored out of my mind most of the time.) However, I can tolerate the situation now where I couldn't before.
So, basically, I think everyone has a breaking point. Everyone has a point where they say, "I've had all I can stands, I can't stands no more," even in a truly frightening economy like this one. Of course, it is easy to end up in a situation where you regret your actions, but I haven't yet.
Or maybe I should have kept my old job, working for stock. I'm sure I'd be a rich man today (snicker.).
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
This may be an arcane reference, but I think this idea was tried already a long time ago. As the story goes, workers once banded together to force employers to improve working conditions, pay, etc. As the story goes, these groups called themselves "unions".
Of course, in the tech industry, where we are all "professionals" and get "salaries" and have "careers", we are above such plebeian things as unions, a day's wage for a day's work, any sort of job security, or any action that would bring into question our undying and unflinching support of whatever corporate entity we are employed by.
Stand up! Companies treat employees as badly as the employees put up with. One bit of advise: don't just walk out without warning. Get together as a group and talk with management. Be up front about the problems and what would fix them. Don't threaten to walk out, just use your collective voice to give them a chance to fix things. Then if things don't improve, walk. I say this because I once worked for a small company with a CEO that was a real piece of work. All 15 or so employees got together and met with the board, not threatening to walk, but deadly serious. A month or so later, he was gone. If one or two managers are the real problem, organize and go above them. Don't be petty or complain about "style" or "personality". Instead, provide a clear list of issues and how they hurt productivity and morale, and what can be done to fix them. If it works, you won't have to walk. If it doesn't, walk quickly. You will have given them the chance to save themselves a heap of expense and trouble.
Please excuse the ranting, but as someone with a family and a life, I have been disgusted by all the corporate boot-licking and cowardice I have seen. Big salaries and perks during the boom distracted people from seeing that they we being used. If you work 80 hour weeks, you are doing the work of two for the price of one. Who is the sucker?
"Life is life." --Laibach
Reminds me of the story (urban legend?) that goes around about the engineers who take key systems down for "routine maintenance" just before walking out - to make sure the managers can't run the shop. Of course, this won't exactly help you get a new job.
Actually, this raises a serious point, which is that a departmental walkout may give you visceral satisfaction, but most technical industries have a 'grapevine' of some sort. You could find yourself interviewing for a new job and having the interviewer say: "Oh, you're one of THOSE guys..."
Unless you have another job lined up, or know that there are lots of better places with openings, it's probably a good idea to stick with the devil you do know.
My $.02
I know you shortened the story you printed above, but does the managment know how everyone in the dept feels? (It's obvious that nobody wants increased hours without more pay, but do they realize how upset everyone really is over this?)
If you did really enjoy your job beforehand, I would create a list (along with the rest of the dept) of the main issues that need to be resolved to make the situation better. Once you do that, explain in a rational manner why these changes need to be made (ie: I understand that money is tight around here, but our dept will not work the extra hours for free. We are vital to the success of this company, etc). Do *not* make any threats (ie: we will all quit). Give the management a chance to change things for the positive!
If that still doesn't work, then it likely would be best to quit. Alot of people will recommend that you stay until you find a new job, but life is too short to be in a position you hate, while working your life away! If you can afford it, get out!
Doh!
The company I used to work for was really fucked up. Managed like rubbish by a trio of morons. Full of promises and never delivering.
All of us researchers and technicians were ok, nice to work with, producing very good stuff and feeling utterly exploited. One day the trio of morons that tried to manage the company sacked the only sane person in the company outside of the techs. There was a general walk out of all the employed techies, one by one in the space of 1 month.
Nobody got unemployment benefits (this is in Europe). 1 year later, some people still do odd jobs to survive. The fucked up company has just 3 employees: the trio of morons!
The moral of the story is:
You need to have the proper qualifications.
I could just go to management and say "fuck you". I knew I could start another job one week later. Very comfortable.
I'll do it for cheesy poofs.
Neither of these is a good answer at this time!!
Maybe the description of the situation left some things out... but this really seems like a big case of an "us against them" failure of communication. Notice this bit: "You get the feeling that the company is just going to take advantage of you no matter how and what happens." Feelings, huh? You don't know what's going on or why, but you have these feelings?
There is no "company", a single malevolent entity that is treating you like dirt. There are a lot of individuals involved in the decisions to ask more hours of you, put you on call w/o extra compensation, etc.. Right now, one of your managers is probably talking to his superior, saying "well, I guess we could ask W and X to handle those few extra on-call hours... it sure sucks, but they seem to be okay with the increases so far, and someone has to do it. That should keep customers Y and Z with us, so we'll be okay on payroll through this quarter, at least."
Do you get it? You have to ASSUME that everyone is on your side from the very beginning, and start talking to your manager, their manager, etc.. Let them know that you and the other grunts are starting to give under the strain. Find out what the problems of the company are, and talk about how the company is dealing with them.
Important: approach everything with a friendly, "we're all doing what we can" attitude. As soon as you get hostile, whoever you're talking to will get an uncontrollable urge to dig in their heels. Instead, decide where your breaking point would be, and discuss it reasonably ("if this happens, I'd really have to leave, and neither of us wants that to happen"). You are NOT making threats. Make this clear. Explain that you will keep your manager informed as the situation evolves, and that you will not leave without warning.
If you start getting frustrated with anything other than the economy, calm down and pick up the conversation later.
Bottom line: decide what kind of sacrifices this company is worth to you, and get in on the big picture.
Good luck.
--
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler". - Albert Einstein
There are only 10 types of people: those who understand decimal, those who don't, and, uh, 8 other types I forget.
In neither case was the mass exodus (ME) planned, in the sitting around and plotting sense. It just happened. In both cases, the ME was preceded by a spontaneous, manager-led, group bitch session, where all the disgruntled employees got together and described what was unsatisfactory about their jobs. The complaints were summarized and sent up the ladder. If your place of employment has reached the spontaneous bitch session stage, expect a ME to follow.
Here are some interesting results from the MEs I have experienced.
Life is like a web application. Sometime you need cookies just to get by.
What's the first few questions you'll be asked at your next job interview?
Why are you looking for a job?
Why did you leave your previous job?
Would your former employer rehire you?
Make sure the way you exit provides the best possible answers to these questions. You'll regret it if not.
When I was in a similar situation, I got the next job first and then I wrote two resignation letters: the one wanted to send, which is still fun to read, and the cordial one I did send. The object is not so much to avoid burning bridges but to let them stew in the regret of not to being able to hold on to such a desirable employee. Flip the bird on the way out and it'll only give you more trouble later.
-
"You're lucky to have a job at all, be grateful"
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"Walk out & you'll be poor and destitute"
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"You need them more than they need you"
etcetera. What crap. We are not some defenceless suckling infants dependent on the generous charity of our employers, we are in a relationship of equals where we exchange labour for money. When did we forget that?If pay & working conditions become unacceptable, we quit them. If our behaviour or our productivity is unacceptable, they quit us. It's not like we've taken wedding vows for chrissake.
If you are drawing more salary than you are worth, go ahead - keep your head down & milk it before your employer realises this. But if you give value for money then you do not need to act like the subservient partner. Jobs are tricky to find at the moment, but good employees are not easy to come by either.
Of course it's prudent to have somewhere else lined up before you quit. Just as it's wise for a company to find someone to cover for the guy they're about to fire. I just object to people acting like their employment contract is their most valued possession, rather than their skills, initiative & integrity. Have some confidence in yourselves!
I think the key to the JBOSS consultants walking out is brand recognition. They all worked on a product that is pretty well known in its solution space. Each of them was a key player in making JBoss the product it is today. Therefore, they could start a company based on the work that they had been doing, and have a reasonable chance for success. This is an unusual situation, because JBoss is open source. Most products produced by companies aren't, and so the developers on that project aren't as likely to be as well known (if they are known at all). This makes trying to form your own company that much harder because you can't really tell potential clients what you have to offer.
IANAL... But I play one on
If you do organize a mass walkout, which screws the rest of the company like you think it will, prepare for the likelihood that anyone who knows or hears anything about the incident - including your managers, people who know your managers, your co-workers, your friends, and even your collegaues who walk out with you - will remember that you were all sh*t disturbers who acted and colluded in a particular way to screw your company when things got tough. The world is smaller than you think.
It would take me about 1 second to decide toss a resume of a guy in your situation who did what you plan to. Nobody needs agitators, least of all a company in somewhat dire straits.
If things are so bad, quit, by yourself. If things are bad for others, they'll probably quit too. But getting others involved in an organized fashion for the explicit purpose of making it tough for the company is unprofessional and will rightly brand you as a trouble maker.
No, the company is lucky to have them and should behave. If the company is really on the way out and these folks can do without them, they should as soon do it as soon as possible. Why sit around and eat shit until the company fails, FOR NO FAULT OF THEIRS? Someone at that company is screwing up or does not belong there. It's not the programmers. A partnership will be tough, but they will be there eventually and might as well start rectruiting useful people before they all make other plans.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
A: Things got rough, they treated us like dirt, I left.
BZZZZZT, wrong answer.
A: We did not like the way our management was handeling our product so we formed a partnership. You may be familiar with OUR_NAME and OUR_PRODUCTS and OUR_CLIENTS.
Of course, the question only has to be answered if the partnership fails. As such partnerships are the way of free software and free software is the future, I would not project a failure. If you end up with an interviewer that wants to work you to death and dispose of you, you might be better off somewhere else.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
That doesn't mean you must work overtime in terrible conditions for poor pay. But it does mean, if you decide to take your employment elsewhere, that you leave the company like a professional.
Treat your reputation like a valuable possession -- because it is.
Sorry, but walking out is a "screw-your-employer" gesture. It's about as unprofessional as you can get and, even worse, makes you look vindictive. Is that really the impression you want to leave? Do you really want to trade a good piece of your reputation for a few fleeting moments of take-this-job-and-shove-it jubilation?Be professional. Give two weeks notice.
Like most people, you are probably under an "at will" employment agreement that gives you the right to walk out whenever you please. Don't do it. Give the two weeks, which is universally considered reasonable and comes at no cost to your good reputation.
If you do resign, tender your resignation in writing. Make it simple, polite, and direct -- professional. Something like, "I am writing to inform you of my resignation, effective on date ." That's all you need. Do not
include a grand, barbed explanation of why you're leaving,
which is especially tempting when you feel that your employer has wronged you.
When your employer receives a stack of resignation letters on the same day, they'll get the point. No need for you to draw circles around it or point to it with big red arrows.
Remember: When you leave, do so in a way that makes it clear to your employer that they are losing somebody valuable. Be professional.
Easy, automatic testing for Perl.
Suddenly, the company realizes its in deep financial shit? Sometimes asking for more is like trying to extract back taxes from the homeless. If someone is living fat at your expense then do something about it. If everyone is in the same boat then what will this prove? Whining while others are in the same pain will get you no sympathy and may cause people to seriously dislike you. When Indian programmers are loosing work to Russians I think your decision is much harder than you think.
I was let go too from a company whose new management was (still is) horrible. They had already laid off 15% of my department. I was so looking forward to being next. I really hated it there but didn't want to quit because it had been such a nice place the previous three years, I kept hoping it would get better. It never did. I continued to work my 41 hours a week (while others worked more to make up for the losses) and was finally let go. It was a very happy day indeed.
I spent the next 6 months self training and relaxing. I would send out a couple of resumes a week. One day I received a call from an old friend from work who offered me a new job making more than I made at the last place with a much better work environment.
Of course, I had plenty of savings, no debt (other than house) and was able to collect unemployment. If you are prepared, unemployment can be a very relaxing time.
Instead, decide where your breaking point would be, and discuss it reasonably ("if this happens, I'd really have to leave, and neither of us wants that to happen"). You are NOT making threats. Make this clear. Explain that you will keep your manager informed as the situation evolves, and that you will not leave without warning.
If you do draw the line for management and they step over it, you pretty much have to do what you said you would. This is a life lesson of sorts... if people believe that you won't make good on your promises, they will come to assume that you are full of s**t and should be treated as such.
If you tell your employer "if I have to work more than 50 hours in a week I am not going to answer the pager/cell/phone if you put me on call this weekend", then make damn sure you do what you said you would.
Worse case you get fired and collect unemployment... but no matter the outcome, you'll be taken seriously.
I know a company that was having similar problems. They built the moral of the employees and got them behind the company to work those 60 hour weeks. They even got employees to "loan" the company some of their paychecks. The result? Over half of the employees got laid off within 6 months. The "loans" were never paid back. And the employees are still working 60+ hour weeks. I'm not sure a walk-out is going to solve your problem. Start looking for another job...
I also know of another company that again had, a similar problem. Instead of walking out, the core development team got together and started their own company. They sold their services to the company they left at a lower rate than it cost to employ them. The company they started has been around for 9 years now and is still growing.
http://www.askthevoid.com
First off, realize that no matter how good you think that you are or how much you think the company depends on you, they will just hire someone else to replace you and move on. It is a very rare case that a company just can't go on without a few people. You may inconvenience them for a while but that is about it. Life will go on.
Secondly, don't leave without a plan. If you have plenty of savings and job prospects then go for it. It would be best to line up a new gig prior to leaving the old one though. If you don't have savings and alternatives then its time to buck up and deal with the current situation. If you haven't set aside some cash, kept your fixed expenses low, and networked like hell then you deserve to be stuck. Learn your lesson and make plans to leave your options open in the future. There is nothing worse than being stuck in a shit job because you can't afford to leave.
Third, be professional. If you do leave just tell your boss that you have other opportunities that you want to pursue and give 2 weeks notice. Work hard and be pleasant for those two weeks. You will never regret acting professionally and you leave plenty of options open. You may want to work at this company again some day. You may want to use somebody as a reference. At the very least, you want people to think well of you after you leave. You never know where you will run into these people again. If you make an ass of yourself it could hurt you in the future.
Four, I would leave on my own and not as a group. Why throw fuel on the fire. Nobody can fault you for leaving on your own to pursue something else. Leaving as a group implies that you are intentionally trying to hurt the company. Its up to you but I wouldn't do it.
Last, be constructive and do things because they are what is best for you, not because you want to hurt somebody else.
COBRA lasts 18 months.
You should get a document from your previous insurer stating that you have been insured and that you can't be turned down for existing conditions.
If you are unhappy where you work, execute a job search and leave when you have another job. In the mean time, work with your bosses to see if you cannot improve the situation. If you do work with them and improve it, you will be happy AND you will be more important. If it does not improve, at least you have ammunition when you are asked what steps you took before deciding to leave at an interview.
Under no circumstances should you talk about leaving or hint that you are actively seeking another job. Their first hint should be your 2 weeks notice. Even if you think you are being nice, you really risk only creating suspicion.
If you are leaving because you are being exploited, then great; do what you would normally do when not happy: either leave now or find another job first and then resign.
But what is the point of the mass exodus? Are you trying to hurt the company? If so, then I see that as a big problem.
Are you trying to go off and start a new business with said folks? Then I suggest you take a measured approach: develop a business plan, get some contacts and/or contracts, possibly have a couple leave now to focus on the business while the remainders stay at the current (paying) jobs until there is stability in the new place.
If you aren't trying to go somewhere else with the group, then I really don't see the point to the exodus.
A bunch of posts here say "don't leave 'cause that'll look bad in an interview". I don't buy that at all myself. However, if you lead an exodus with no real (business) purpose then that WOULD look bad for sure.
I missed a similar situation by mere weeks. I left the company for a better job offer, but I was privy to the scheme before I left.
Weeks later, three core people left, started their own consulting firm, and contracted with the employer to do their old jobs on a consulting basis! They somehow sold managment on the idea that it would be cheaper for the company to pay them as consultants than the pay them as employees. The consulting business has blossomed with new clients, and the old employer is in a well-publicized chapter 11.
These guys won, and are still doing well, but this started in late 1998-early 1999 at the height of the bubble. They managed to create solid customer releationships that they have built a solid business on.
Look before you leap, and make sure you know where you are going to land.
I am not your blowing wind, I am the lightning.
Specific sorts of professionals are exempt, and management is exempt. There's a special stipulation with regards to computer professionals, but it mandates that you must either be in management, or making more than $27.63 an hour (from the last time I looked at the regs).
So, if you're making in excess of $57k/year, and the majority of your work is self directed (or you are in management) then you're somewhat screwed.
State labor laws are also important here- State law cannot weaken the federal law ( if your employer falls under it) but it can make it stronger with more requirements. Check with your State wages and dues/labor/workforce department. They will also come in and investigate if you so desire, and can mandate that employers pay up to 2 years of back wages if they are found to have you wrongfully exempted.
have fun. it's never easy.
EOM
... makes you work 50-60 hour weeks and generally treats you like dirt, you should also gather the best minds and organize a mass expodus. Loyalty is good, undeserved loyalty is stupid. Consider that it doesn't have to be based on self-interest, just appreciation of whatever/whoever you are loyal to and there is no need for exceptions.
Although I can't address an en-masse departure, I recently left my job and couldn't be happier with how it ended up. You could do it, too.
My situation was similar to what the poster described- company tanking, workhours skyrocketing, and managers' heads migrating up their asses as unstoppably as tectonic motion. Even with all that, the decision to leave was TOUGH, especially "with the current job market." (everyone's favorite buzzphrase)
I'll spare the drama, but suffice it to say the camel's back finally broke and I simply packed up my shit and walked out. It was weird, almost surreal, but despite the enormous risk I intuitively knew I couldn't spend another day under that employer's stunning incompetence. And it's not even that I'm some young kid with no obligations. I'm mid-30ish, was right in the middle of buying a house, had a dog, yada yada...
So I left, and couldn't have been happier with how it turned out. After 'just' 2 rather unsettling months, I was picked up by another company: better pay, better people, reasonable hours, and actaully making a profit. I attribute my relatively quick pickup partly to dumb luck, but also (IMHO) a great education and experience.
Vital: for everyone that says education doesn't matter, think again. Paper opens doors. Get those degrees AND be able to show you have more than book smarts.
Moral of the story: it's tough to leave, but *absolutely* possible to land on your feet, even better than before. But it takes balls; the safe bet is always with staying with the status quo.
Reasonable companies are run by the professionals who make them work:..., hospitals,
Totally OT, but what the hell. Hospitals are not run by the pros who make them work. Ever talk to a nurse? I'm married to one. The patient/RN ratio is insane, and they keep cutting back on staff. Almost the exact situation the article poster described. And their union doesn't seem to be much help...
The only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights. -- Cheerio Boy
Since most people these days save nothing and live paycheck to paycheck, self-respect comes in a distant second behind money.
You can go an flip burgers, but that won't pay your $1,200 mortgage payment.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
This is an interesting theory, and in some cases, where management is intelligent, it can work. In those situations where management is interested in communicating, they engage the employees by telling them in advance why they are in a short term crisis, why and how it will be solved, so that it doesn't appear to be crap falling on them from the sky.
I have personally been through a situation where I was "management", hired to modernize an engineering organization, but did not wield "executive" power, and disagreed with the "executive" decision to (illegally) overwork the staff. I left after stating my reasons before it went to hell. I was told "this is the way our industry works", and advised that If I wasn't willing to do 80 hours a week, I didn't belong.
After I departed, the "management" left knew that they would have a high attrition rate, and they cajoled (but you signed the loyalty oath), threatened (you'll never work in this industry again, and you know we can make that stick), and bribed (look at the bonus!) the employees to stay to the end of the project...Then, as the project neared completion, and before they bribes were contractually due to be paid they started firing the people who had gone through hell, and pressured others to leave by obliquely letting them know they were next.
And before you say "yeah, but this was probably a bunch of losers who made a crappy product, so they were fired for failing", this was the #1 selling product for the top company in a very prominent (one of the few growing in tech nowadays) industry upon release.
The moral of this story is that there is no "one size fits all" answer. Sometimes (often) management would just as likely to tell you "You're fired" for communicating on them, so when you find the exception, nurture it and enjoy it while it lasts.
You are right: that's the way to go about solving problems in the workplace. Getting results that way might not be so easy. I have some experience along those lines.
Managers have to juggle constantly to satisfy a number of stakeholders: the board, the shareholders, the customers, and the employees. It's no coincidence that I list employees last; sadly in these times the employees often get the short end of the deal. Not because management is unfeeling or because they don't care about employees, but it is felt that the employees can be pushed the most without breaking. Piss a client off and he'll take his business elsewhere. Disappoint the stockholders and they'll dump the stock or ask all sorts of nasty questions at the Stockholders' Meeting. But piss of your employees and they'll just keep going. Sure they'll grumble, but they won't quit on you unless you really go too far.
Also, some managers do not like you to bring them trouble. Oh they like feedback and all, but if you're the only one to come to them to "Find out what the problems of the company are, and talk about how the company is dealing with them", they might label you as "the troublesome one". You may even find that ephitet duly noted in your personnel file (oh yes...) Instead of just doing your work, you come to them to tell them how to do their work, with a bunch of issues that frankly are a big headache. Well, that depends on your boss, and how you approach him. Still, the easiest (and therefor the most common) reply would be "Just do your job like everyone else".
Getting no results from your boss, you decide to see his boss. Your problems already start even before you enter his door. For one, your boss will probably be pissed for going over his head. Managers don't like it when their people speak with their supervisors. Second, your manager's boss will already be on a personal level with your manager. He probably works intensively with him on a day-to-day basis, whereas you are just an entry on the budget sheets. If your manager has reported that everything's fine, he might think you're exaggerating and wasting his time. Then again, if you keep running into a blank wall like this, you could consider switching departments rather than quitting.
I do realise I paint a bleak picture here. Sure, there are good companies with good management, but my guess is that the people considering to quit en masse are not working for one of them.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Communication (and the understanding that comes with it) really is the key to dealing with most situations that leave you pissed off.
Every single company I have ever worked for in the IT industry, going back over about a decade now, has had asshole management. Every single one has had groups of pissed of grunts (or groups of lower mgmt as I progressed). I finally reached the point where I stopped and wondered what the common link was?
People who work in IT are, now the gold diggers are gone, generally slightly obsessive, lacking in social skills, nerd types.
The managers have next-to no social skills. The grunts have next-to no social skills. Add in to that the grunts used to be treated like gold dust and have entitlement complexes while the management hated that and are now getting their revenge.
The thing is, you can't change the management. Now the economy is tanked, they know you have no leverage over them. You can get together and talk about mass walkouts but the reality is, unless everyone goes, they can hire new and retrain - and probably for less than they're paying you. And you know that at least one of your indignant group will buckle for the job security. Walkouts are a nice dream for taking the power back but they're just that. There goes your one form of leverage.
So, if you can't change them, what can you change? Well, there's the other side of the equation. If shit ain't going to get better, it's probably time to learn to deal with shit.
Find a good anger management book. It'll help you understand that anger is just stress manifesting with an anger trigger. Turning stress in to anger just leaves you pissed off and stressed. It'll help you learn to rephrase situations for yourself so you can dissipate that stress better.
One of the main things they'll talk about is the fallacy of entitlement. The notion of "should"s. You're probably reading this thinking, "Why should I have to be the one to change?!" Simple question for you: Honestly now, is there anything you can do to get them to change? Try thinking of three situations in your life where you've been yelled at and told you "should" change and have actually done so - do you think it'll suddenly work for your managers? If you can't get them to change, do you really want to just stay in the same stressful, unhappy situation?
Get a book, take a class, whatever, on anger management. It'll teach you to dissipate the anger so the next thing that comes up doesn't seem quite so bad. Once you're chilled, you might find better ways to get the change you want. Even if you don't, at least the fucked up job will be more tolerable.
Just like people should have savings to tide them over rough times, shouldn't companies? Why should an employee have to pay with his time when the company didn't see problems coming or plan for a downturn?
The company owes the employee a decent management team that doesn't run the company into the ground. If they can't hold up their end, all bets are off.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
There is no "company", a single malevolent entity that is treating you like dirt.
No, but there sure is a small circle of executives who make those tough decisions while on the way to the golf club in their 7 series BMW for a nice lobster dinner. The company I work for just cut vacation. I get 1 week a year now. I also have to take it before the fiscal year end on 9/1. So there's now no time to accrue vacation before christmas. How nice. And those altruistic beings who are just looking out for the company? Let's see how quick they are to give back that benefit once the economy turns around.
There are a lot of individuals involved in the decisions to ask more hours of you, put you on call w/o extra compensation, etc.. Right now, one of your managers is probably talking to his superior, saying "well, I guess we could ask W and X to handle those few extra on-call hours... it sure sucks, but they seem to be okay with the increases so far, and someone has to do it. That should keep customers Y and Z with us, so we'll be okay on payroll through this quarter, at least."
Talk about a major case of rose colored glasses. When these wonderful managers mismanage the company into the ground, then ask me to clean up their mess, should I?
You have to ASSUME that everyone is on your side from the very beginning, and start talking to your manager, their manager, etc.. Let them know that you and the other grunts are starting to give under the strain. Find out what the problems of the company are, and talk about how the company is dealing with them.
Have you ever had a paycheck bounce? I have. Have you ever had your employer siezed by the IRS for failure to pay payroll taxes? I have. Have you ever been promised bonueses on eight separate occaisions and received a fraction on one only once? I have. Have you ever been fired because your manager thought you were better than him? I have. Have you ever gotten in trouble for not predicting the future or reading someone's mind? I have. Have you ever predicted a project's failure months and millions of dollars in advance? I have.
Have you ever been warned before your employer goes out of business? I never have.
Employers are not on your side. Ever. There are only two possibilities. If it's a private company, they're on the owner's side. If it's a public company, they're on the shareholder's side. Never yours. You are a commodity to be exploited however possible, no matter what the HR propaganda says.
Instead, decide where your breaking point would be, and discuss it reasonably ("if this happens, I'd really have to leave, and neither of us wants that to happen"). You are NOT making threats. Make this clear. Explain that you will keep your manager informed as the situation evolves, and that you will not leave without warning.
And you'll be the first to be laid off. Employers want sheep. If you want to keep your job, act like one. Tell them nothing because they're certainly not volunteering any information. If you don't like your job, find another one. But never let them know you're looking. Otherwise, they'll remove you before you have the next job lined up.
Like it or not, you're in a business relationship with your employer. One in which you're at an extreme disadvantage. If your employer wants to cut your benefits, they simply say, "Well, things are tight, so we're zapping vacation this year." Can you imagine what would happen if you did that? "Well boss, you've been working me harder so I'm going to take an extra week of vacation this year." After the laughter subsides, they'll replace you.
The work culture in this country sucks. And it's time for a change.
Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
Homer Simpson
"In a hierarchy every employee will rise to his level of incompetence". The Peter Principle
This is very true, and particularly true if you live in a second or third tier city where the community of IT Directors/CIOs and higher-level IT opportunities is limited. If you should *succeed* at crippling a business for a period of time, you could get blacklisted as a troublemaker and have difficulty finding a job or getting promitions if you do find a job.
I also wonder if a particularly successful fscking of an IT infrastructure couldn't put you at some risk for a lawsuit claiming sabotage. Even if it didn't have a chance of success, you're unemployed and having to defend yourself in a civil suit. That $25k in savings will disappear in a blink just getting a bogus suit dismissed, one with a shade of merit? Hello, homelessness!
My personal "extreme quitting" plan would be to submit a letter to my boss outlining my reasons for leaving, as well as outlining my availability on a contract basis to provide continuity on these NON-NEGOTIABLE terms:
1) Work will be billed at a rate of $200 per hour with a four hour per day minimum, including telephone consultation, travel and offsite work.
2) All expenses, including meals, parking, travel, supplies and equipment required will be billed and provided by the vendors of my choosing. I will seek approval for all purchases over $500 and all materials will become the company's property when my consulting term is over.
3) The company will indemnify me against any damage or losses resulting during my contractual employment.
4) An up-front non-refundable retainer of $5000, payable in cashier's check or cash ONLY, is required before any work, including telephone consultation, will take place. The first 25 billable hours will be subtracted from this retainer.
5) Payment for all hours is due via cash or cashier's check on the Friday of each week before any further work will be performed.
This prevents them from saying you fucked them to harm them and won't help, you have a better basis for arguing you didn't like the job/pay/whatever. The frequent cash payment requirements keep them honest and from getting work and just not paying, important if there's financial problems with the company or if they just have no choice.
Of course in my personal fantasy I get a call from my ex-boss 72 hours later saying they agree to all these terms and that if I will come in today that they will have a cashier's check for $5k waiting for me. I work for about 40 hours and make two months salary.
Been there, didn't do that.
;-)
While reducing staff projects upon projects were piled at a big5 company I worked for. At one point we had to say "Stop".
Did not walk out.
We compiled a list of ToDo's, went to our superior (okay, our superior's superior) and told him to give all these Priority-A-1-Alpha projects unique numbers. He has the big picture - or is at least paid to make decisions. So he decides. Not us.
He tried to argue (you must know - you're the techies), even actually tried to walk away. We said: okay, then we'll assume you hand us a blanko cheque okay to priorize. We'll then have this (interesting, but only moderately urgent) project with top priority (which still was sensible/okay but not the most urgent one) and continue down the list after finnishing.
No! He cried. Other projects...! We handed him the list again: Here. Numbers. Nonrepeating. You decide - or we have to. You know our suggestion. Decision still is your responsibility (i.e. your neck). So he told uns a preliminary No.1 - and followed up with a clean priority list.
With this we were able to work without overtime. Just worked 40(+epsilon) hours a week, and had priorities to fend off requests for "just a bit more" work (More work on your project? Then talk about priorities with Mr.X).
As for "a bit more overtime" - overtime and crunch mode only works for very limited ammounts of time (common knowledge is max. 2 weeks). After that stress-induced errors and illness have a very offsetting effect. If you're more stress-resistant that the remainder of your team, just fall back to the average to take speed and pressure out of the system. Noone can prove wether you really cannot find the one proper file among all the garbage crunch-mode-produced yestarday. It's very hard to differenciate between real symptomes of stress-induced illness or faked ones.
It even is a great opportunity to you, your team and even the company to introduce a task delegation and priorizing system - or other ones to steer projects and processes (e.g. change control procedures). Just to make sure, the really important business cases are handled properly and quality-assured, of course...
Escalation:
If the problem is your direct superior (S1), walk to his superior (S2). Or to his superior's superior (S3). If he understands the problem - fine. If not, start bouncing the problems back to them. They have to decide on priorities: "Which one - A or B - decide NOW!" - where the NOW is important as the project is important and must be complete NOW (so it's not your NOW, but his or the customer's one). You even can use it to jump levels (beyond/around S1 to S2) - simply have your colleague do the same talk with S1 simultaneously - so you can't reach him for decision and so you went to S2 because of the project's utter importance. If the answers contradict, go back to S2+S1 and tell that S1 (or S2) just ordered you otherwise (sorry for the overlap - it's just due to the hectic...), and you want a confirmation.
Simply bounce the pressure back. They have to slice the work into managable chunks - that's what managers are for. Just bounce it back for re-assignment. Because you want to see the project done, too (of course) and see THIS (chunk) will not be working (or contradicting with other stuff).
So get priorization and escalate, i.e. bounce irresponsible pressure, untaken responsibilities and not done decisions back to from where they come and where they belong. All for the sake of professional work and successful projects, of course (*NO* irony here).
This can even enhance your own position, especially if you give your superiors good (priority) suggestions and decision reationales. And suddenly you're not only programmer or admin, but on the track to project manager...
Qapla'!
Now, here is the hard part.
Say NOTHING.
No contact, period.
Just leave, dont look back, accept no messages, open no mail, just send it back unopened. If your entire crew does that, you can insure that your former boss is toast. One thing that people do naturally is talk too much. Silence is power.
If you keep quiet, the HR department will be ORDERED to find out what happened. Meanwhile your group picks a single person who is NOT an employee to do all the talking for your side. If you let multiple people talk, they will turn your words against you. It also prevents you from being served with a lawsuit notice.
That person meets with HR off the premises alone, and gives them a single list of complains attributed to the group, without specifying individuals. HR will demand to speak to employees before anything happens. Resist and let them replace you if nessesary. Do NOT allow anyone from your group to speak with them for any reason, no matter how trivial.
The frustration will be directed at your Boss who is still there. Their ability to manage people will be questioned. There could be no other conclusion, due to your extreme position in not speaking with them. Your company will start looking for your boss' replacement while he is looking for yours.
You may never get your jobs back, but you can insure that the pain you cause your company will cause your boss to lose his job too. You need to decide just how far you are willing to take this. If you are just pissed off, you will get no satisfaction. If you are committed, you might be able to inact some sort of revenge on your former boss.
Look around at your group. If you have any pussies in it, forget the above and get back to work; you fucking slacker, you.
You get drunk with your 'walk out' buddies. Then in the light of day, you wake up and have dinner. You basically do every you would normally do when you quit a job, including wish they had fired you instead so you collect unemployment.
Will you teach them a lesson? Yes; you will teach them that they can find cheaper people that are silly enough to work the long hours without complaint (for a while). You will help them fix their financial problem and/or help them to an ealier demise. But the chances of them begging you to come back like your were an abused spouse is probably pretty low.
Instead, I would opt for the 'fsck the bank I work for' mentality and go home when your tired, and live a happy life. When something better comes along, take it.
I think you underestimate just how much I just dont care.
I work at a small company, and we have been hit by the falling economy. We have pulled the office back to four days a week, and four days pay. We have also had to start paying half of our own health insurance. I know it's a MOJOR bonus that we didn't pay anything at all, but now we are paying a hefty amount at the same time that we all get our pay cut.
The problem that is arising with management (Management really consists of one person. It's a small office) is that we are supposed to maintain high levels of work, come in on the week-ends, stay late, even though we are only working 4 days a week. We are all feeling taken advantage of, but the job market is so bad, there is not a lot we can do to at this point.
I swear to GOD I had a point when I started writing this post, but I have no idea what it was now. Maybe I just needed to get that off my chest.
What you've really done is formed a union or basis for a union, though that word has a specific bureaucratic meaning in the U.S. Some people here have said it might be bad form to just say screw you and leave. Perhaps, if you're all together on this, perhaps you should approach your employers and tell them what you're unhappy with and what you want - no unpaid overtime or oncall, and in terms of being treated like dirt, perhaps more control over your work and some type of grievance procedure. If you're so sick of it you feel you just want to leave, just demand exactly what you all want and don't give in, then they can't say you just walked out - they just didn't pay attention to your demands.
Some people have said the job market is bad. It wouldn't be if more people did this - 2 people working 60 hour weeks without overtime pay is the same as 3 people working 40 hour weeks - they've put someone out of work with their lack of value for their time. But in terms of that, if one of you walks out you are easily replaced - if all of you threaten to walk out, or strike or whatnot at once, then that becomes less so - all of a sudden you become on more equal footing with the company. It depends on the situation, but in many cases something like a strike is exactly equal - you are hurt by not getting a paycheck, but the company operating without an IT department, or with IT scabs who have no idea what they're doing.
Decades ago, when people were treated like garbage, had work dumped on them and were told to work 60 hour weeks and be oncall 24/7, they used to do what you're doing almost naturally. That's why things didn't go to garbage. This is supposed to be a white collar profession for pete's sake. Half the people here are telling you to consider only the things that go wrong, that you should live like a coolie. It's a disgusting mentality that's crept in - be a man, especially if you're under 35 and don't have kids. I can see people in bad spots (H1-Bs, big families with little savings) being fearful, but if you're a 23 year old programmer, being a patsy for some company owner who is squeezing you dry is insane.
There are also other tactics that have been mentioned here like a "slow down". There are all kind of tactics like this, it's unfortunate that the community is so weak that it is difficult to learn things like this. It's helpful to all of us when people in your situation can talk to other IT workers and get some good ideas and community support. The employers sure as hell do it with organizations like the ITAA, that's one of the reasons we're in the boat we're in. There are organizations like the Programmers Guild and Washtech and so forth.
Have some backbone! In solidarity there's strength. If you're all together you DEFINITELY have leverage over the company. That's one thing the company and people of a certain mindset want to convince you of - they are all-powerful, you are weak and scared. Bullshit. In Europe, they are putting through crap people don't like with pensions and guess what - 80% of the workers in the country are going on strike. You can be certain Faux News doesn't cover that story - it might give people ideas. And guess what - the government and people pushing for that junk back off. That's why they have education systems where they don't have to import 1 million H1-Bs because supposedly there's not enough educated people in the US to do the IT jobs. When those European workers walk out of their jobs en masse, all of a sudden the shoe's on the other foot - the rich, and the bosses and the owners, and the government can't do a damn thing, THEY'RE the ones shaking in their boots - not the workers. What are the bosses going to do, fire all of the workers in the country? The reality is that the people who do the work in the company are the ones with all of the power, the owners and managers have po
Bob #1: We're trying to get a feel for what people do around here.. so, could you just walk us through a typical day for you?
Peter: Well, sure Bob. I generally come in at least 15 minutes late. I use the side door; that way Lumbergh can't see me, and after that I just sorta space out for about an hour--
Bob #2: Ah wait--space out?
Peter: Yeah. I just stare at my desk. But it looks like I'm working. I do that for, uh.. probably another hour after lunch too. I'd say, in a given week, I probably only do about 15 minutes of real, actual.. work.
worked for me for about a year and a half. Then we got a new director who didn't suck ass, and she got new managers in place that didn't suck ass and now we're all happily doing more than 15 minutes of work. Though I still find time to search slashdot and post office space quotes. That can't be considered good. But fuck it, I'm salary.
Peter: We don't have a lot of time on this earth! We weren't meant to spend it this way. Human beings were not meant to sit in little cubicles staring at computer screens all day... filling out useless forms... and listening to eight different bosses drone on about mission statements.
Michael: I told those fudge packers that I liked Michael Bolton's music.
Peter: Oh that is not right, Michael.
Peter: So I was sitting is my cubicle today, and I realized.. ever since I started working, every single day of my life has been worse than the day before it. So that means that every single day that you see me.. that's on the worst day of my life.
Therapist: What about today? Is today the worst day of your life?
Peter: Yeah.
Therapist: Wow, that's messed up.
because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
I have to disagree with that statement. I also have to say that I used to agree with that statement. A trade union (electrician, plumber)is very useful, from both sides of the fence.
From the worker, you have a job, get a decent wage, get training, and get placement. Good workers look for good companies. A good company will always have work and treat their employees well. Lazy louts will have a harder go of it, and will wind up on furlough (Laid off) more often.
From the manager (my side) it's good too. If I hire a union electrician, he or she has to come with tools, and prepared and able to do a certain level of work. If this person cannot do that, I send them back. One of the big complaints about non-union work is a lack of training. And I've seen it happen. A guy shows up and says he's an electrician, but he barely knows how to change a light bulb, let alone install electric panels!
And yes, a union electrician costs more, but the odds are you're going to get a better job out of a union shop. That said, there are non-union shops out there (especially away from the east coast, where there is less organized labor) that do great work. But even then a good shop is going to cost more because in the end, you get what you pay for.
One last thing, this all pertains to more physical, blue collar work, construction and maintenance of data centers, not the programming and operation of the equipment in it.
And no, I'm not in a union, but I use them. And I'm good at it!
I worked for a 4 man tech support crew once
...but then Reagan fired us all. Bastard.
Well theres only so much their union can do... if Nurses were to actually strike or stop working, people die.
:)
If they slow or partially strike, only keeping people where they are needed absolutly to prevent that, then those few would be worked to death themselves.
Thats the real peroblem there, their hands are tied because the only people who can really be made to suffer by them are the patients, and thats exactly who they became nurses to help.
Of course then again, I supose if they really struck the doctos would just have to pick up the slack and do all the nurses functions. That would be poetic justice.
But ask any nurse and they can tell you what would happen if you left all the nurses chores up to doctors... people would die even faster
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
Heh.
Unlike some of the rabid pro-union activists posting here, you make some very good points.
However, most of the crap and exploitation pulled by the managers is illegal. Working extra hours with no pay? In most of the first and second worlds, that's strictly illegal, unless covered by a specific employment contract provision. (and even then, it's often not considered an allowable clause)
Most unions I see today exist for two purposes: The well being of the union (first and foremost), and the exploitation of the company for the increased benefit of the workers. Both of these are bad.
The first is pretty obvious. People repeatedly ask me why the second is bad though, and you've hit one of the two nails squarely on the head.
1) The union should exist for the well being of the employee and the company both.
2) The union should ensure that the employee gets treated fairly--not better every year than the one before.
This second point is a bit awkwardly written, but I can't think of a better way to word it. When I hear about unions bargaining tools, they invariably want:
- better BASE pay (above and beyond cost of living and merit increases)
- better benefits (with no regard to the current benefits package)
- absolute job security (creating a disconnect between performance and security)
Now I will be the first to jump up and down about fair pay, good benefits, and just job security; but unions seem to be pushing hard to make sure that every year increases their well-being at the expense of the company. Furthermore, they do it by invoking/enforcing the dual image of management as utterly evil capitalists, and non-union workers as helpless opressed slaves. This is just crap.
Good, working unions aren't a bad thing at all, but they're needed rarely these days, and are almost entirely non-existent.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Best time I ever spent was listening to a series on negotiation (I happen to listen to this guy on the subject of power negotiating
The real issue is not whether to leave or not, but rather to negotiate with the bosses to get the respect and working conditions you want. There's lot of "gambits" you can use like good-guy/bad-guy, higher authority, nibbling and a host of other tactics
For example. the company I'm currently working at desperately needed some fixes to their commercial accounting system. Rather than say "Yeah I can help you" I phrased it as "I might be able to help you, but what are you going to do for me?". Two weeks later I'm sitting in my own office with a $4500.00 PC and a 22" monitor using only Linux - a dream job!
If geeks would learn some basic negotiating skills, Linux would eventually rule, the world would be a better place, and we'd all make more money. (Don't believe me? Talk to an accomplished salesman)
Ruby on Rails Screencast
In this market, be grateful you got a job.
NEVER quit job "A" until you have job "B" lined up! NEVER.
If you want to try strong-arm tactics against your employer, form a union.
A couple things follow:
If you can't come up with job "B", that means that you should probably keep working at job "A" and deal with it as best you can. Work slowdowns and other means of "giving management the finger" may make you feel good for the moment. Don't screw yourself.
If you can't get enough support from your co-workers to form a union, that's a pretty good indicator that your brilliant plan to "show management whose boss" is going to fail.
An note to employers here: Loyalty flows both ways. If you're screwing your employees, you can be sure they are going to screw you back. And you, as the employer, have to be the first to show respect. Most employers would prefer to use manipulation and intimidation than respect. Fact is, intimidation is a better short-term solution.
I must say this comes from a voice of experience. I left my previous job mainly because I did not respect my boss. I will not iterate his shortcomings here; just say that he did not meet my criteria for respect. I hired on with another (much smaller) company whose leader I did (and do) respect.
In tough economic times, the company I work for has had to cut back on some benefits simply because the money was not there. Some employees would have dragged out their offer of employment and cried "FOUL". No. Most employers will give you some song and dance about "we have to face reality her...we are no longer able to..." Fine, that's probably true. But when economics improve, does management restore vacations? Benefits? My boss did.. When money got even tighter, the management cut salaries, too. Their own salaries, that is. And that means president, veep, etc. Not "project managers", etc. The people with the power to make the cuts cut themselves first.
Listen up, bosses reading this: This is respect. All of these "Who Cut My Cheese" books won't tell you the simple truth: "If you take care of your people, they will take care of you". And if you screw them, don't expect any better back.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
Talk about a major case of rose colored glasses. When these wonderful managers mismanage the company into the ground, then ask me to clean up their mess, should I?
... but then again, it might.
Ah, that cursed optimism of mine. Just can't shake it.
The funny thing is, though -- it can work. If you just scheme against management, they will know it and not feel any compunction at all about giving you the boot.
If you try to work with them (and yes, maybe help them clean up the mess, but also help them prevent it from happening again), it might not work (and you can usually figure out pretty early on if it's failing, and bail before you get yourself into trouble!)
There are companies where the intelligent, considerate but persistent person can really get ahead. There are companies where s/he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell. Start slowly to find out where you are... and if you're the snowball-in-hell, you can either start stabbing backs and scrabbling, or just lay low, wait out the poor economy, and move on when you can.
There are only 10 types of people: those who understand decimal, those who don't, and, uh, 8 other types I forget.
A startup I was working for about 4, 5 years ago was doing fairly good business, but ended up having some pretty bad cashflow problems (collection sucked). When some of the sales guys and one of the IT guys wanted to know what the plan was for commissions compensation (understanding that there was no cash on hand, but having a plan in place), and management gave us nothing in the way of a plan, and in the case of the IT guy absolved themselves of their debt, we staged a walkout.
The IT guy (my best friend) quit immediately. One of the other programmers had quit the day before. I quit but offered to stay onboard and transition a few projects (out of the goodness of my heart - assholes be damned). I got walked out the door. Two of my friends who were in marketing but were not seriously considering a walk-out were bounced out the door a week later with a month's severance and leftover vacation time. Definite house-cleaning.
The company deserved to lose us. They are doing fantastic 4 years later, so I know we didn't hurt them (not that I cared), but I hope at least they got the fucking point.
-Chris
A previous employer liked to give out $10k hiring bonuses that had to be repaid if you left before a set time (my case was two years).
We had several people who left the day of the expiration, with less than on week's warning.
I casually let slip that I would be renting out my house six months before my date was up.
This employer has a few bad things to say about me, but they have admitted that my departure was cleaner than the others because it was expected.
Time limits on sign-on bonuses plus a bad work environment always equals a mutually-agreed termination date.
I have some experience with this type of situation because I founded a company that was acquired and stayed along as they did a extra-professional job of ruining the organization I had built with my original partners. All of our original employees and the great team we built up after the acquisition were extremely disappointed to find what was previously an excellent company to work for turn into a hell-on-earth mess.
There are a couple of important things you might want to think about before having a mass walk-out at your current company:
Why the mass walk out? Is it to "teach management a lesson" and make yourselves feel better? If so, you should probably realize that everyone is better served if the people who are dissatisfied simply find other jobs (or don't find jobs if they have enough cash to ride out some unemployment) and leave in an orderly fashion. Give your two weeks notice, go to your next job, and hopefully you'll find yourself in a better situation.
Staging some sort of apocalyptic last battle that leaves the company IT department in shambles might be fun to fantasize about and possibly even fun to execute, but you really need to think about what actual benefits this will provide. Possibly some of the people who quit are now unemployed and under the gun to find something else. Possibly there are some people left behind in management who were actually all right folks who are now in a really hard position. Almost certainly anyone who is left behind to pick up the pieces isn't going to be a terribly useful reference for future work.
In a situation like this it is key to determine what value there is in striking a "victory" against your old department. A Phyrric victory is a victory where so much damage has been done to all parties involved that is is hard to actually call the nominal winner a true victor. Adopting a scorched earth mentality might be a fun posture to adopt, but dealing with the consequences can be pretty unpleasant for _everyone_ involved.
I had to sit around and watch the company I built go to hell. The smart people just found other jobs, said their goodbyes, and went on to bigger and better things - everyone stayed friends. Other people chose to sabotage the operation by sending employee lists to recruiters, complaining about things that weren't going to change, and just generally adding to an already terrible situation. These people all left or got laid off eventually, but they also destroyed a number of professional relationships that did not have to end with their attachment to the original company.
In short, please leave your job if it sucks because life is too short to work at a shitty job (unless you're contractually required to stay like I was). However, take a moment to think about how you leave that job and be sure that your actions actually contribute to your long term happiness and professional development rather than just making you feel good when you tell The Man to take his job and suck it.
First, it always help to know when the company has started the fsck plan as soon as possible. This will help you in to not getting yourself in trouble as you can when you start obeying the company to stay for long work shifts, or even 7x24, because once you start doing so it will very difficult to stop. It always pays to have friends on human resourses / finantial department to know when things happen.
Second, you start searching for another job when all your coworkers use the extra work time to fall in the spiral of trouble. Of course, it will help when not only you, but all the department simply do not accept the new kind of rules, but unfunaterly this is not the case as you're reading Slashdot when the others are using compressed air to clean motherboards.
Third, you can expect to be fired when this process (finding another job in your free time) is still in early stages, because other coworkers will even start to complain as you leave office early every day, among other causes. This is not as bad as it sounds: when the company fires you only because you're doing your job at the usual schedule it will pay you for that (legal affairs differs state to state or even country to country). When you leave voluntarily you receive a lot less (and you will if you find another job to jump in).
Third, never use the company's network to search for another job (you can be fired early, even with no compensatory package, simply for using the company's assets for this purpose), this is NOT a smart move. Period.
In the end, if everything is sincronized, you will find yourelf in another job, using the time the others spend jobless working for your current company, for less daily hours. This is the best case, of course, and demands you to be as reserved and confidential as you can. But hings could go wrong...
Always get to know the law, as you can find what can happen, to be prepared (this could help you when you receive your last payment for your current company, for example).
You can use some (of all) of your company's benefits (days you can work from your home, sickness, courses, even not showing at office with a limit) to go to job interviews.
Keep in mind this: you will not be treated different because you're special, you know something the others know or youÂre to important for your company, if you fail to realize this you probably shouldn't reading this, it will help you more to use compressed air to service motherboards and cds. You have very little time to fly, maybe to a better possition ;)
If it helps, once the company fires the unfirable staff, it starts a never-ending process of hiring new people, and as soon as this people finds what it's all about, resigns, to start it all over again, and again, and again...
It's just a shame that there're some places where the finantial people are so dumb thay cannot say what costs more, or the company is so alienated with money that does'nt care for it most valuable asset: the people.
Carlos Niebla
The key here is that we had specific complaints, specific solutions we wanted, reasons why those solutions were the right ones, and we also had sufficient numbers (well, the whole company) that they couldn't ignore the issue.
Make sure that you know your reasons for taking action. Make sure that you've identified the core problems, and that you've all tried to address them with management directly.
Then figure out what solutions you think will fix the problems. New managers? New company policies? What exactly would make your jobs enjoyable again, while still helping the company through its tough times?
Lastly, be careful before you make specific threats (i.e. you do what we ask or we're gone). Unless you really don't care about the company at all, I assume you don't want to really threaten -- you just want to make sure that they know you feel strongly about the problems, and that you will have to take action. Make sure you do in fact have sufficient numbers and sufficiently important roles in the company to back up any threats of action that you do make. If you just look like a few cranks, nobody will take you seriously.
But really, it comes down to looking as though you care, you want to work things out, and you just want to bring attention to the problems. Keep in mind that you're going to have to go over someone's head to reach people who can take action, and you may create some pretty bad feelings in the process. You may well end up making things worse, in fact, if you're not careful. But if you care about the job and the company, and you really think things are intolerable now, and you've made reasonable efforts talking to people one on one about the problems...well, then it's certainly time to do something about it.
- If you haven't yet done so, read your terms and conditions of employment, including the small print. Pay especial attention to procedures laid down for handling employee grievances, and disciplinary issues, and over what activities may constitute grounds for disciplinary actions.
- Give your local managers the chance to recognise that they have a problem and to make a sincere attempt to resolve it before moving to the grievance stage.
- Keep a written record of these discussions - make a summary at the end of meetings and indicate to the people you're talking with what you consider were the important points and what you understand to have been agreed (or not) on each side.
- Don't indulge in wishful thinking on a matter as important as this. As others have already noted, it's easy to believe that you're more vital to the enterprise than you actually are, and there's the unpleasant possibility that even if everyone who's unhappy acts responsibly you'll still be identified as trouble-makers and find yourselves looking for other work. I'm not saying that you should wimp out and let yourselves be shafted because of the current state of the job market, only that you are realistic about the situation.
Good luck, anyway.A lawyer with actual experience in intellectual property, NDA and trade secret cases can advise you about important prep work before you leave that will give you partial protection. There's apparently no such thing as complete protection.
Take this seriously, folks. Not every employer makes rational decisions about litigation.
Walking out is dumb especially when you consider crappy economy, number of foreign workers who ARE willing to work for less and put in more hours.
Back in the IPO-crazy days people had no problems working 70, 80-hour weeks. Now that we are back to reality, why do you ask for something that you will never get back - time. Time that you could have spent with your family, friends, etc. is worth more (to me) than extra 10k that you can probably squeeze out of the Co.
Why don't you negotiate flex time schedule for ALL IT people in your group.
Either ask for more vacation time or Summer Hours schedule where you get to leave earlier on Fridays, like 1 or 2pm. If they won't give you more money, the least they can do is give you more vacation time and more personal days.
I've had problems with my job working for a large company that's well known locally. I was seriously thinking of jumping ship, writing a scathing manifesto of the problems in my position and with my supervisors, and then looking for employ elsewhere. But since I don't have a job lined up to go into, I needed to get my finances in order to make such a leap.
I'm not good at saving and since my ex got the house in our breakup I don't have equity in much of anything that doesn't rapidly depreciate (car/computers).
I take at least 10% of my post-tax net pay and consider that off-limits. It goes immediately into long term retirement savings. This is above and beyond my 401K contributions. If I'm out of work I won't be contributing to long term savings so this is to fill that hole, but I found I had to take this out of my pocket first or I just couldn't learn to save it.
I cut my monthly expenses (rent, internet access, etc) from 40% to 30% of my net pay. No cable. One phone line. Do without heat or AC except in emergencies. The 10% saved went into paying off my credit cards and now goes into unplanned expenses. This also helps me become less dependent on those nice but unnecessary comforts so I won't miss them when I must cut to the bone.
I've started really being a tightwad about daily and spontaneous expenditures. This was where my biggest waste was. I now allocate only 10% of my net pay to food, gas, and these day to day consumables. If I have money left from this, I allow myself use it on computer books, dining out, and other spur of the moment luxuries. It makes it a very powerful incentive to save, but it was the hardest to get used to.
25% of my net goes to unplanned expenses. Car repair. Unplanned doctor visits. Rent and insurance price hikes. Stuff like that. This isn't to be used spontaneously, but it's not realistic for me to consider it "savings". Things will and have come up that have wiped out this pot of money and then some. But once or twice the pot has grown to more than $2K at which point I funnel the excess into savings.
The final 25% goes one of three places:
1. A kitty to pay expenses for eight months.
2. A pre-planned large purchase.
3. Long term savings.
The eight month expense kitty is a must have even if I wasn't considering quitting. I might get fired or laid off tomorrow so this is the biggest need.
The pre-planned large purchase is for something I need like a new car downpayment, a necessary computer upgrade, a training class, or a big birthday present for my dad's birthday. I keep it to one goal at a time and I know how much I need to save beforehand. It helps keep from getting carried away because I have $X burning a hole in my pocket.
Finally, if I have a full kitty and no preplanned item to buy on the horizon, I put the money into long term savings and don't think about it again.
It has taken me over a year to get disciplined enough to follow this method. There have been some suprises that have wiped out my plans. It's been really eye-opening to do this while I have regular income coming in. It's certainly not going to happen when I don't.
Finally, a couple of other things I've found are good to check out:
1. IRS filings. I paid someone to look over my returns for the past three years which I had self-filed. Good thing I did.
2. Credit rating and fico score. I was suprised that mine wasn't quite as pristine as I expected it to be (and VERY suprised at who had requested it)
3. Medical and dental health. Make sure that your in good shape because these expenses and health insurance will be much more expensive if not part of a company plan.
It's been more than a year to get in financial shape, but having not found a better job in the meantime I'm glad that I've been setting this money aside. Come my next paycheck I should have enough financial cushion to say goodbye if I want to.
One thing I decided to do though: Don't burn my bridges. I'm not going to write a goodbye manifesto to embarass
Follow the parent posts instructions and be guaranteed never to get promoted.
Gator/Claria is Spyware.
When I as in Grade 8, the school board in our area decided rather than cutting all teacher's salaries they would dismiss 2 teachers instead.
This makes sense except that it's union so those with seniority kept their jobs. We the students were really pissed off because 2 good young teachers were going to be axed and there were at least 5 teachers that were no younger than 62. 2 of them had to take insulin shots every 2-3 hours (and they did miss and go into shock on more than one occasion). 2 didn't care about their jobs anymore and it was evident in the quality of the classes. 1 seemed to think that nothing had changed since the 1890s and that a teacher should run their class via fear and intimidation. She was also becoming senile although she would blame this on her students 'playing tricks on her'.
One day at 9:30am EVERY student in the school (a junior high, grades 8-10) walked out and started protesting in front of the school. The principal came out and tried to dissuade us and was having a good go at it until the press and the TV cameras showed up. A group of the best speaking, most presentable students addressed the press and told them exactly what was going on. As soon as the parents saw the 6:00 news, they weren't so mad about their kids walking out as they were pissed that quality teachers were being fired so 'useless' ones could earn an extra year of undeserved wages.
The next day students from 10 other schools in the area did the same.
After 2 days of the school board receiving calls and letters demanding certain body parts of theirs on a platter, they reluctantly found other areas to make up the money instead of firing teachers.
This also shows one of the drawbacks of unions: sacrificing youth and skill for old age a treachery...
PS: Read your NDA. Most only cover the property of the company, not the 'dirty laundry' btw employees and management.
The GEEK shall inherit the earth...
This is excellent advise. We consulted a well-regarded law firm specializing in intellectual property litigation before writing one line of code or drafting a single design document. We went so far as to go out of our way not to use any paradigms or algorithms from the previous company, even if they were considered general knowledge in the industry. That did not stop the lawsuit. I could go on and on about how frivolous the whole thing is, but unfortunately the goal wasn't to win the lawsuit, but instead to bury us in legal fees. They were successful in that regard.
An old employer of mine had a mixed staff: some union, some not. I worked in the analytical lab: one of the dozen or so instruments was designated "union." While I was there, Union Employee X was the only person allowed to touch this instrument. Luckily, Employee X was a hard worker and a decent guy: he even trained one of us to do samples on the QT so that everything wouldn't back up for 2 weeks while he was on vacation. The two previous iterations of X were not. They would come in in the morning and run the dozen or so samples their contract required. Finished by 10AM, they then read the newspaper the rest of the day. Too bad if you were one of the ~10 labs that needed a sample analyzed: you just had to wait until it got through the queue.
My personal favorite: distributing liquid waste cans was a union job. If you needed a waste can, you walked to the end of the hall and filled out a form and a union employee would bring you one eventually. Where were the new waste cans stored? Under the table with the form. But don't touch: I got reprimanded for carrying one back when I had forgotten a request the day before and the HPLC was about to overflow.
They didn't even do well by their employees. Shortly before I started there they went on strike despite wages and benefits well above the industry average. The company hired the salaried folks to work extra hours to keep up production. Productivity soared, errors dropped, and the union eventually slunk back to work with the same contract as before but no worker paychecks for a number of months.
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
Man, at my last job we *dreamed* about getting "50-60 hour weeks, put on call with no compensation, given unreasonable amounts of work and generally treated like dirt". After the first round of layoffs, my job sounded like what you describe... ...but there were 4 more rounds of layoffs after that, and each time someone in my group got axed, I got their workload added onto mine.
Try 80-90 hour weeks, 7 months without a Saturday or Sunday off so I could finish a project that my boss took credit for, denied a promotion because the reports of that same boss showed I wasn't really putting in an effort, and constant Warnings Of Doom from everyone about how if I quit I'd never be able to find another job.
My health got shot to hell, my attitude got shot to hell, my *life* got shot to hell... one day a co-worker asked my boss if he was worried I'd quit, given the ludicrous conditions, and my boss replied "he'll never quit... I *own* him".
I put in my notice the next day.
Months later, I'm still in bad health, attitude hasn't really improved, and I have made the decision to let my college degree gather dust rather than go through that again. I'm looking at going into manual labor, if my health improves enough to allow it, and taking a handful of sleeping pills, if it doesn't.
So what was your problem again? To me, it sounds like you live in fucking SUGAR COATED *FAIRY*LAND*, cavorting with the fucking ELVES and UNICORNS and TELETUBBIES, and you're complaining that you don't like the flavor of fucking MARMALADE they put on your fucking TOAST.
One individual in a large team, maybe. A large team with thousands of man-hours invested in a given project? Not likely. The company could never replace the collective experience it lost, and even a replacement project team of the smartest hackers in the world would be hard pressed to catch up for months.
If there was cheaper labour around who could do the same job just as well, wouldn't the company already have hired them instead? I thought you had "at will" employment in the US?
If this sort of stuff is happening, then (a) it's probably worth a mild pay cut to get out if necessary, and (b) within a few months you aren't likely to have much of a job where you are anyway.
I've seen this before. Typically, in companies that survive, a few good people leave, management wakes up to the fact that conditions are not acceptable to the workforce and those who remain get an improvement in pay and/or conditions that is enough for them to stay. If management doesn't wake up fast enough, too many good people go, and the project fails.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Payback's a bithc:
Call OSHA about your work stations
Call the health department about your employee cafeteria
Call the Fire Department about those boxes stacked in the stairwell.
There isn't a company in the world that follows all the regulations - make 'em pay.
While I totally understand where your frustration comes from, not everywhere is like that.
Fortunately, it's a happy coincidence that a well-treated workforce is a more effective workforce. Keeping your staff sweet isn't just good manners, it's also good business. By cutting you down to only one week of leave, your employer has all but guaranteed a burnt-out workforce who will repeatedly take sickies within months, until they all quit because of the stress anyway. Even if they stick it out, they'll be out the door in a heartbeat when the market picks up.
The smart employer looks at ways to improve things for their staff as a priority. Happy staff are productive staff, and benefits follow. Some perks are effectively free if your working conditions don't prevent them: flexitime and pillow days come to mind. A few extra days of leave each year, or a $100 bonus to everyone in the product team when the release goes out, do cost, but they pay back many times over.
Although you seem to have had a particularly bad experience, there are smart employers in the world. The workforce owe it to themselves to go find the smart employers, so they can be more successful than the stupid ones, who will then go out of business, improving the overall smartness of management by evolution. :-)
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Here is the bottom line on pretty much any job I've ever had or seen any of my friends have (with one exception): always look for a better job. If you have power in your job, leverage it. If you don't, lay low and look for a situation or a job where you will. Walk out as soon as you find a better deal. Treat the company you work for as expendable.
Because, believe you me, this is *exactly* how they feel about you.
I was agreeing with you right up until you suggested using your retirement money to buy Doritos and pay the rent.
So you use up your retirement account to get by until you are earning again, at which time you start replenishing your retirement, until the next layoff. Rinse, repeat, and soon you are 60 and have about 5-7 years to make up 40 years of mortgaging your future.
There is no replacement for compound interest in saving for your retirement, and treating that money like a revolving loan means certain doom for your future. Once the money is in your retirement account(s), you must forget you ever saw it and leave it there to do it's job, which is to ensure your survival after you are no longer able to work. Planning for a rainy day is not a job for retirement funds!
Ick. Exactly why a useful lawyer will tell you there's no absolute protection.
...
My sympathy is utterly useless but you have it.
If anyone needs a concrete example of how bad things can get, one company sued a group of executives who left and sold a product that their former employer had failed to develop. The argument? They said that the knowledge of what approaches were dead ends was a trade secret. Yep, the former employer said they'd succeeded because they stole the former employer's secrets of failure.
Some of the defenses you can use are on the business side, not the legal side. They're also often out of the question:
o Leaving on a warm, fuzzy basis. That's about as rare and difficult as a "friendly divorce".
o Working in a field outside the former employer's business. Tough to do while using your professional skills.
o Not working for reptilian psychos in the first place. If only they came with warning labels
For the lot of you to get together, and decide to act as a unit, not by walking out, but simply by working the way you think is fair, within reason.
Draft a letter, signed by all of you, about the bad working conditions. Make a few demands, pointing out that they are perfectly reasonable: 40 hour work weeks as a rule, not an exception. No unpaid on-call time. And most importantly, no retaliation towards individuals out of your group for the time being. Point out that if people are fired from the group, the others will not take up the slack for the time being. Slow down your work to a reasonable amount, and do the work you DO choose to do well. Make it clear that you are good resources, but that you will not be pushed around due to managerial incompetence.
It's true that you may be an important group, but so are other groups, if you change your perspective.
You can get a lot more and be more professional than simply all walking out.
I had something similar happen with an ISP I worked for. The entire engineering team walked, including the senior tech that had built the entire network from the ground up. Never heard from them after that.
Lets say a person is hired by a company, hourly not salaried, to do system administration. Well throughout the employment the person was asked to do a website for the company. The site isn't finished yet, and still being worked on daily in addition to normal sys admin tasks. The conditions at the workplace have deteriorated rapidly and the pay certainly isn't consummate to the workload. If the person were to leave whether it be by resignation or laid off, what are the legal rights the person has in terms of taking the code for the website with him when he goes? Whether or not the company folds or stays in business seems irrelevant in this case, but if the person leaves and decides to take the website and any other work he's done with him, what are the legal ramifications of doing this? Mind you it's not a contract position, and there is no contract at all, and certainly nothing about ownership of code, project schedule etc.
"I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin"
It's funny that this topic comes up occasionally. Let me tell you a (true) story.
About a decade ago, I was working for a medium-sized computer retailer. I had just joined the technical services group, and work was brisk.
This group was responsible for providing technical support both for internal systems, and for fulfilling external customer support contracts.
This was back in the time when there was still some money to be made selling hardware in a retail environment, but when margins were already starting to fall. It was pretty obvious to everyone that the happy days of Porsche-driving salespersons was coming to a close.
This company had the answer half-right in that they saw computer services as a way to stretch their profit margins on their computer sales. More importantly, though, they saw professional services as a way to get into customers that they would normally have no access to.
Where they still had blinders on, though, was that they were at their root a retail sales organization. Everything revolved around the salesperson's ability to close the sale. If that meant that services - either basic configuration or detailed consulting and programming - had to be provided at a cut rate, that was fine as long as the company closed the hardware sale.
The problem was that the services group had their own P&L and budget. Worse, we didn't get credit for the hardware sale in any form. Add to this, our ability to charge-back our services costs (especially when they were discounted), was minimal. But our compensation was based on our P&L.
We were able to offset this for a while by selling services contracts somewhat outside of the regular retail sales chain, but soon even that was being eaten away when the company brought in dedicated sales people to sell support contracts under a different group.
What all this meant was that we were all working 60+ hour weeks with less and less pay.
So we started to plan.
The manager of the group started delaying the close of most of the support and development contracts 'in the pipe,' at the same time that the services support sales group was doing a great job of selling contracts. He also rented office space and convinced the rest of us in the group that things were not going to get better staying with the company. We could do better on our own.
On July 5th (yes, the timing was deliberate), he had a meeting with the management of the company, where he handed them letters of resignation for the entire group. We had also coordinated our mass resignation with the resignation of the person responsible for supporting the POS system for the company.
So now this company had NO technical support people, a large number of signed support contracts, and a large number of hardware sales contingent on cut-rate support and installation. They had already purchased much of the inventory for these sales, and faced a cash-crunch if they were unable to make the delivery.
We offered them a way out.
All they had to do was transfer all of the previously-sold contracts to us... We would take them over, essentially without compensation, but with the ability to renew the contracts under the new company. All the contracts in the pipe would be 're-sold' to the new company, so that we had an instant source of income. Additionally, we would be available to help the old company's corporate sales division continue to close higher-end customers, in return for ongoing access to their customer list.
So...
It's almost 10 years later, and our original parent company has long-since dive-bombed, folded, and dissolved into oblivion.
If you walk into the front door of our office, you'll probably notice the one out-of-place piece of art in our otherwise utilitarian-geek environs... It's a sculpture of a golden goose that used to sit on the CEO's desk at our old employer.
Sometimes things DO work out right.
When the economy sucks, the capitalists rape the employees, demanding more and more, squeezing them like a lemon for their drinks. When the economy booms, the employees demand more and more for themselves.
What's the difference? People are acting like shits either way, and they're both doing wrong, but you also have to look at where the harm is. Do I harm the company by demanding more money and benefits? Maybe; they factor that into their costs. If they can't make money the company tanks. But: the executives do the same thing whether the economy is good or bad and often, these days, drive the company into the ground themselves.
On the other hand if the company squeezes the employees, the employees suffer not just hurt, but harm. They don't like the stress; yeah it's unpleasant, but there are also real-world effects from this stress. Their health suffers. Their families suffer. When the employee comes home and has half an hour to eat, clean house, discipline their kids and try to come down from a bad day, something important is going to get skipped. Their children end up being raised by Jerry Springer and MTV. A frustrated employee lashes out at their spouse, their kids, and everyone they encounter. That anger passes into society, and the poorly-raised children grow up to commit crimes, or have emotional problems. People have all this money and no time to spend it living life, so they throw it away in empty consumerism. The employee is now driving a vehicle twice the size of a '75 Buick, and the environment is filled with pollution and garbage as all this crud spreads throughout the world.
All due to the greed of the company.
O~ Him that studies revenge keeps his own wounds green. -- Francis Bacon