Slashdot Mirror
Taiwan Under Cyber Attack from China
An anonymous reader writes: "O'Reilly Developer News is reporting this morning that Taipei is under cyber attack by a Chinese 'army of hackers'. The Taipei government is saying that the attacks are trojan-horses against windows machines that are being staged to break in to government databases."
This is extremely interesting. In his book "The Bear and the Dragon" this is exactly what happened, only it was China and Russia.
COULD THINGS GO NUCLEAR!?!?
It's pronounced nu-cu-lar.
WHATEVER!
Maybe they're just trying to undermine Windows by attacking it.
-Libertarian secular transhumanist
Cabinet says computers under attack
INFORMATION WARFARE: A Cabinet spokesman said Beijing is waging a campaign designed to access databases in Taiwan through the use of Trojan-horse computer programs
By Ko Shu-ling
STAFF REPORTER
Thursday, Sep 04, 2003,Page 1
China has launched a systematic information warfare campaign against Taiwan, spreading Trojan-horse programs into private companies' computers as a means to break into government databases, the Cabinet said yesterday.
"National intelligence has indicated that an army of hackers based in China's Hubei and Fujian provinces has successfully spread 23 different Trojan horse programs to the networks 10 private high-tech companies here to use them as a springboard to break into at least 30 different government agencies and 50 private companies," Cabinet Spokesman Lin Chia-lung () said yesterday.
The government agencies invaded by the Trojan-horse programs include the National Police Administration, the Ministry of National Defense, the Central Election Commission and the Central Bank of China.
To minimize the damage, Premier Yu Shyi-kun yesterday instructed all central government agencies to scrutinize their computer systems and report to the authorities within two days. Those failing or refusing to comply with the order may face punishment.
Yu made the remark yesterday morning during the weekly closed-door Cabinet meeting, in which Minister without Portfolio Tsai Ching-yen () briefed Yu on the matter.
"Trojan-horse attacks are one of the most serious threats to computer security," Tsai said. "A computer user may have not only been attacked but may also be attacking others unknowingly."
Because of the vast popularity and many weaknesses of the Windows operating system, most of the damage is done to Windows users, Tsai said.
Although the National Information Task Force has warned government agencies to be on alert, Tsai said, some agencies have failed to take the warning seriously.
"They either delayed reporting to authorities or tried to solve the problem themselves. It not only stalled our response efforts but also made the situation worse," Tsai said.
Since it appears no government information has been stolen, Tsai said, the deployment of the program is likely aimed at paralyzing the nation's computer systems.
"Of course there are other possibilities such as stealing sensitive government information in vast sums or preparing computers for future information warfare," he said.
To help government agencies invaded by the program clean up the mess, Tsai said the National Information Security Committee plans to complete the programming of the anti-Trojan-horse software today.
"We'll also post the solution manual on the Internet for the convenience of other countries facing the same problem," Tsai said, adding that Taiwan is the first country to have detected the program.
Lee Hsiang-chen (), captain of the National Police Administration's Criminal Investigation Bureau, said the situation has been monitored 24 hours a day over the past two months.
"We're glad that it has been detected before any damage was done," Lee said.
"If there's any lesson from this experience, it is not to use software developed in China or hire Chinese computer programmers, because you're running the risk of having the software you use implanted with the Trojan-horse program," he said.
Karma: Can there be a void?
.. -. - . .-. .-. --- -...
Show your hate for SCO
Now please, don't flame me as a fan of mainland China's repressive regime. But the Taiwanese government doesn't exactly have the world's best track record, as I recall. I hear occasional notes about "problems" with civil rights, and then there's the whole pirated anime problem.
So when I read this line:
"National intelligence has indicated that an army of hackers based in China..."
my BS-o-Meter starts clicking. Though the article is non-technical, it includes other notes that make the meter tick faster:
"...has successfully spread 23 different Trojan horse programs... 10 private high-tech companies... break into at least 30 different government agencies and 50 private companies," Cabinet Spokesman Lin Chia-lung said yesterday.
We have a lot of big, scary numbers... but no hard information about the programs, the companies, or the government agencies.
In fact, the "23 different Trojans" makes me think that the government cabinet member is talking out of his butt. More likely, nobody's been running virus protection, and those 24 Trojans are simply members of F-Secure's wildlist.
Then, there's this "helpful" suggestion:
"If there's any lesson from this experience, it is not to use software developed in China or hire Chinese computer programmers, because you're running the risk of having the software you use implanted with the Trojan-horse program," he said.
That sounds like nothing more than the usual tit-for-tat barbs that Taiwan and China have been throwing across the strait for decades. In fact, I suspect that's what this whole Trojan Horse issue is -- all bluster, no substance.
And finally, off the actual topic: let's watch the Slashdot effect in action! When I first hit the Taipei Times article, it included this text at the bottom:
This story has been viewed 1128 times.
By the time I typed this comment, the number had not changed, so I'm probably getting a cached copy. What did it show when you hit it?
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
Wang logs into his workstation after lunch, and thinks to himself, "Funny, I don't remember this icon on my desktop. I wonder what will happen if I double click on it."
He double clicks on it, and a dialog window pops up titled "haxx0r3d", with a message saying, "You have been hacked by chinese. Have a nice day."
After pondering the message, he clicks ok and thinks, "Hmm. I better do a checkdsk and report this to NISC."
Moral: Don't be a Wang.
A programmer is a machine for converting coffee into code.
Sounds like a conspiracy to me! (*Cough cough* bullshit.)
how do your say 'Did you install the latest service packs?' in taiwanese?
Yu made the remark yesterday morning during the weekly closed-door Cabinet meeting, in which Minister without Portfolio Tsai Ching-yen briefed Yu on the matter.
I hadn't realized that I talked with China or Tiawan latley.
I'm not a prophet or a stone-age man,
I'm just a mortal with potential of a super man.
They're under another kind of cyber attack now. Can't get through to the linked website.
Is there any relations between theses attacks from China and connections attempts from chineese computers I see so often in my firewall logs ? Anyone else is getting scanned so often from China ?
I fully expect this on the big screen in a few years.
~
~
:wq
It's only with the advent of the Internet that the two are suddenly in contact in meaningful ways. In a strange twist, and in many cases the Chinese government is in a position where they have to defend Taiwan against these kinds of attacks from their own citizens!
It's a strange, strange world. And as we grow more connected, it's getting more so every day. So buy SCOX stock.
It's interesting that this is happening now, after china has acquired windows' source code. Could they have found newer vulnarabilities that no one knows about yet?
Disclaimer: My opinions are my own and do not, in any way, reflect the opinions of my employer or university.
But then, even if life were a Tom Clancy novel it _still_ wouldn't be written by Tom Clancy.
## W.Finlay McWalter ## http://www.mcwalter.org ##
Blaster strikes again...
there is no blood shed... Bang Bang, oh those cyber bullets really hurt....lol
...couldn't they just impersonate techs, walk in and grab the government mainframes? :-)
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
all your (data)base are belong to us!
there i said it, i know its japanese but it had to be said.
Especially the last part of the article:
1 52525 2
"If there's any lesson from this experience, it is not to use software developed in China or hire Chinese computer programmers, because you're running the risk of having the software you use implanted with the Trojan-horse program"
on the heels of this report, regarding China's intentions of developing their own OS:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/08/31/
And how do you write 'j00 have b33n 0wn3d' in Chinese?
Meep.
I did not make it to the article, so I am basing this comment upon the posted text.
"China has launched a systematic information warfare campaign against Taiwan"
That would be propoganda. Hackers, or more technically, computers, in China have launched an attack. Not the Chinese government, not the nation of China, a group of individuals using computers in China.
"'National intelligence has indicated that an army of hackers based...'"
Again, a little over the top with the "army of hackers" reference. This makes it seem like the hackers have some official link or even political cause.
"'If there's any lesson from this experience, it is not to use software developed in China or hire Chinese computer programmers,'"
Propoganda. Incredibly, this sort of logic would mean that living or working within a country means that you are a malicious agent of that country. Ludicrous.
Oh, and please do observe the editor who approved this article.
Because of the vast popularity and many weaknesses of the Windows operating system, most of the damage is done to Windows users, Tsai said.
Department of Hoeland Security, take note.
For how long has this kind of attack been promised? Now that it seems to be happening, what kind of reprocussions can we expect? Will the US or UN intervene, since (at least from my POV) this is an act of war? Then again, are these government-sponsored script kiddies, or are they doing it of their own volition? IANA diplomat, but this is obviously a serious violation of something, and if it's not, then there might be an agreement regulating such warfare, an electronic Geneva Convention.
/. is "Do they see that Windows sux0rs now?"
Of course, forget all of those important questions: the one true question to ask on
(Score:1, Redundant) Don't connect critical systems to the Internet.
Either the parent post has extremely fast typing skills...
Well, 50wpm or so -- tell your kids to take that easy-A "Keyboarding" class first chance they get, or else the only words they'll be able to type without looking at the keyboard will be "brb", "asl?", and "wtf?"
or it was a canned comment that happened to fit just right..."
No... although sometimes I think I've developed a "Slashdot" section of my brain that pops out fully-formed stories when triggered by the proper stimulus.
or I am crazy. Story posted 12:01, comment posted 12:03.
That's it! You're crazy! I'll share my prescription with you, I keep forgetting to take my meds anyway.
No, I'm just a subscriber *and* a fast typer with too many ideas and a boss that doesn't prowl around enough. I think Pavlov would be proud of the way I click when I see a red bar on the Slashdot home page!
Wow, I am impressed.
Don't be... just click the "Subscribe" link, pony up five bucks, and Instant Karma's gonna get you before you can say "Frist Post!"
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
Ask you parents who Jimmy Carter was before he did Habitat for Humanity,
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
...a level of animosity that China has toward Taiwan.
Let's just pray that all of the fighting stays in the cyber world.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
Only on slashdot are Civil rights violations mentioned in the same sentence as pirated anime of all things.
There's nothing Intelligent about Intelligent Design.
Hey, at least they know to refer to it as a "trojan horse". Unlike the head of IT here at work who sends out emails to everyone warning them of the "internet virus worm".
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
me chinese me play trick me ping -f'in on your nick
MoFscker
Well, this is the first I've learned of it. My ultra cheap standard issue 1.5Mbps DSL connection seems to be going just fine. Got a few connections to the WayBack machine going and I just finished the rounds at a dozen web sites, EETimes, DisplaySearch, BioTech East, Digitimes, Google News and on and on. None of them had any problems, nice snappy connections. A few of those are in Taiwan so locally and internationally the network itself seems fine.
The only thing I couldn't get to was the feakin' story at the notoriously paranoid Taipei Times because apparently the greater threat to the local net than the mainland is slashdotting!
Remember that story last year about them demoing a version of Windows in the W.C.-- I think it was in the UK? Your "scenario" is not too far from the truth. Instead of reading a book on the pot, you can be online. Just be sure you wash good before you touch the pointing device... um, whatever it is.
Always look on the briight side of life! (whistle, whistle)
Please help me decide who to cheer for.
Here is the cause. Taiwan recently conducted military exercises simulating a Chinese invasion despite Chinese protests. I would imagine that this is China's response.
Or it could be preparation for an all out invasion by China. Now that would be a fun war to watch.
Taiwan should ditch their Windows boxes for something more secure. Like, say, Red Flag Linux?
How do they know "China" (as in the Chinese government) is attacking Taipei, instead of just a group of people? I mean, if Joe Hacker from the USA attacks the Belgium government servers do you call it an attack by Joe Hacker or an attack by the USA?
s/army of hackers/script kiddy in US with a bunch of hax0r3d puters from china/
I think that would be more accurate.
One of my friends of the asian persuasion has taught me the true Chinese way of attacking.
First, no not all Chinese people know kung-fu.
This is a common misconception bred from kung-fu movies. They actually get to choose their martial art. So some know karate instead.
Secondly, the Chinese use giant chopstick catapults to throw themselves to Taiwan, and then they use these martial arts to attack.
Third, the Chinese NEVER use technology to attack! It is simply not honourable. You must commit "harry-karry" (which is, yes, japanese and spelled american). The honourable way to attack is with martial arts. Possibly using weapons, if the other agrees to it in the duel, and their sensai throws them the same weapon you have.
Because a numchuck vs. sword fight simply isnt fair, or lengthly enough to make a good film.
I must get a glass of water...this is a little dry.
[I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it]
and the CMS made the formally dynamic page static to save the server.
Fuck Beta. Fuck Dice
So after they do nuke, the computers that survive won't be running Windows.
-Libertarian secular transhumanist
Regardless of the implications of this:
1) This is, to put it concisely, goddamn cool. We've been hearing for years about how countries might wage some kind of hax0r-cyber-warfare on each other, but aside from a few isolated instances (e.g., the U.S. disabling Iraqi computers in 1992 by introducing a hardcore virus via, of all things, printer driver software), we've dismissed it as futurist hogwash. But it may be happening now. If so, it's an historic moment in computer science.
2) This is better for people than having any country invade or bomb another. This type of invasion may be a precursor to that one - but if, in the future, a country can be brought to its knees with minimal loss of life by just wrecking its computer infrastructure, then that is a good development of history.
- David Stein
Computer over. Virus = very yes.
This just in...
The Taipei Times is under attack from a group of computer experts in the United States. The group, calling themselves Slashdot, have bombarded the Taipei website with so many hits, that it cannot distribute web pages anymore.
More on this story at eleven.
I remember after 9/11 alot was said about information warfare being the new medium. It was made into a big deal by the media, but I also remember Wired writing an excellant article on how physical attacks would be much easier, much more destructive, and much less expensive to implament. Since all that, I have been very skeptical about if digital warfare is ever going to be in our future. Assuming this is a true claim, des this now prove that we are in that age? Its one thing to claim a few kids are doing it, its a whole different ball park if you say military trained personell are carrying out the attack...
Consolidate services and reduce costs. Newly coded software built from the ground up with security in mind. Each line of code strictly peer reviewed. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
As for the China v Taiwan propaganda this article tries to create, I would hope perhaps any worm or trojan could eliminate all of the damn APIC spammers and all of the substandard generic electronics being generated with illegible English user docs!
Right, where are their priorities? We need to focus on the underpriveleged anime.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
Those nice folks in mainland China are just trying to accelerate the transition to Linux in the Asia-Pacific region by exposing the folly of using Windows for anything other than games.
No doubt. Do you recall back around 1998 or 1999 when every dumbass bozo threw the catch phrase "Information Superhighway" out there? Really trendy stuff. Very bleeding edge.
sneak peak of world war 3
The two main Taiwanese routers are presently showing a 192ms and a 203 ms response time with a 0% packet loss. China, OTOH, has four main routers with two of them showing a 0ms response time coupled with a 100% packet loss.
Smells a bit like propaganda to me...
Me play joke
Me put trojan horse
In your insecure Windows machines
No trees were harmed in the composition of this; however, numerous electrons were inconvenienced.
erm no. USA is a bigger threat then any other country at the moment.
Although US and China do share the same human rights, or lack there of.
Hold your fucking horses. I support Taiwanese independance. Unsurprisingly, though, I was not trying to trace everything down to ultimate root causes in a simple slashdot post.
This current period of tensions have been aggravated by Taiwan's entirely proper military exercise. If you cannot see that, you have got some serious blinders on. My god. Someone actually accusing me of Communist sympathizing. That really takes the cake, you dumbass.
At this moment there is heavy loading on parts of the US network. Is this related or just a coincidence?
Is it just me, or this remind anyone of C&C Generals' China?
When you don't have a leg to stand on, don't even get up.
These kinds of "attacks" have become commonplace. They happened after the election of the new Taiwanese president as well.
It's widely believed that these hackers do in fact have an official link with the Chinese government as part of the People's Liberation Army in their efforts to prepare for what they term "asymetrical warfare."
This would involve using systematic computer attacks to take down the Taiwanese technological infrastructure and communications in the moments before or following a massive short-range missile attack across the Taiwan Strait.
The goal would be to spur massive confusion and allow the substandard Chinese naval and amphibious forces to seize the island before the United States could mobilize to its defense and making any attack by American forces that much more difficult.
The Taiwanese position isn't "propaganda." It's information based on what they know is happening in China. And yes, China does have a goal of reunifying the island with the mainland and refuses to rule out the use of military force or any other method necessary.
Do you think the hackers just happened to attack Taiwan because they were in the neighborhood?
first off, I would wager that the person who responded to your post doesn't really no you, and thus has no way of knowing who you sympathizing. and the you emphasis the 'me' as if everyone should know who you are.
;)
you also assume the poster owns horses that are breeding.
that said, I totlly agree with your original post. I think anybody old enough to remember the cold war recognizies this for what it is.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Wow, guess the targetted Windows boxes really are "Hacked by Chinese" this time.
It rebooted. China 0wns
me. Blue screen now red.
Sig Applied For
The People's Republic of China ("China") claims that the island Taiwan is a rebellious provence of China.
The Republic of China ("Taiwan") claims officially to be the legitimate government of all China. Until the 1970's the United States recognized this claim.
Here's where things get confusing:
Currently few (if any) nations recognize Taiwan as being the legitimate government of China. However, it is U.S. policy that what is officially a dispute over the government of China should be resolved peacefully.
If Taiwan renounces it's claim over mainland China and declares independence, China will invade, claiming soverignty over Taiwan. According to generally accepted international principles, they have every right to do so, much like the United States of America invaded the Confederate States of America when it declared independence, and the UK invaded the American Colonies when they declared independence.
Projected outcome of a conflict:
United Nations sides with China - It is after all officially a provence of China and an internal affair.
United States sides with Taiwan. Although we do not offically recognize Taiwan, Taiwan has been a faithful ally in the region for many years.
Not a good scenerio.
its actually pretty sad, because the mainstream of china is in fact pro capitalist, yet there are a few bad eggs (unfortunately in power) that spew this shit and stir up the pot. Hong Kong is doing just fine, Shanghai is doing fine....good examples of capitalist experiments under commie gov. They arent stupid. They know if they went and gave up commie gov today they'd be just like russia. China will come out of the commie coma in a few years once it has gently turned power over to a democratic government.
Taipei is under cyber attack.
Am I the only one thinking that this can only be GOOD for Taipei?
They will end up with much better systems in a few years if this carries on.
What an absurd statement you make, perhaps the little old lady walking down the street is the one REALLY at fault because she should have a sawn off shotgun under her coat to protect against muggers, after all if shes not defending herself properly shes asking for it!
If ease of attack is a deemed resonable motive for the attack then perhaps blowing up school busses is resonable also.
Laptop Reviews
In other news, China has posted stories to Slashdot about Taiwan's major internet sites. These sites have been effecively shut down due to the "slashdot effect." Film at 11.
Taiwan is officially the Republic of China.
Officially they are the minority side in the Chinese Civil War, which has been going on since 1945.
Both China and Taiwan agree that Taiwan is a part of China, as is Tibet.
The debate officially is not over what China is doing with the rest of the world, but over who rules China.
Andrej Gromyko (former Soviet Union Sect. of State) wrote in his autobiography about Mao Tse Tung's plan to destroy the capitalist forces sometime in the 60's or 70's. It went something like this: first, China would invade Taiwan. This would make US/Nato respond by taking back Taiwan, and move onto the Chinese mainland, where the Chinese forces would fall back to the Gobi desert. Meanwhile, the Soviet Union would be passive, and even a little pro-American. Then, when least expected, the Soviet Union would launch a nuclear attack on the Nato forces in the Gobi desert, destroying them. Mao estimated about 200 million dead chinese, which was an acceptable price to pay...
Hello, my name is Robert Lerner, and I pronounce Lernux as "99% cpu"
I'll bet you also blame the female jogger who gets raped because she's wearing provocative clothing and jogging alone at night, right? After all, it's only instinct for the sexual predator to go after easy and lucrative prey, right?
Sorry, but I just don't understand blaming the victims of crimes. Just because a security hole is there doesn't mean it deserves to be exploited.
is that b/c they'd be running the new cockroach version of linux that's been EMP-hardened? :D
ed
Does anyone know if this is the first large scale cyber attack (ie one nation verses another)? I imagine USA, GBR, RUS, PRC have all tried small scale attacks on one another in the past, but this is the first I've heard of such a large scale use of cyber attacks. Second question, what would China have to gain by this attack? The only purpose I can think of is either a) they are preparing for an immenant land invasion, b) this is a probing attack, setting the stage for a larger one, or c) they are just playing political "games" with Taiwon.
That's not the point. The point is not to use closed-source software anymore. If their software was supplied with source code, they could have scanned it thoroughly for trojans before implementing it.
You are correct. The Taiwanese government is manipulating the Western media in order to garner support from Western audiences. Please read "Understanding Taiwan: Security Threat to USA".
Umm... I believe the phrase is "he's coming right *for* us". Sheesh. ;)
From the article:
If there's any lesson from this experience, it is not to use software developed in China or hire Chinese computer programmers
... and ESPECIALLY don't use the City Firewall software written by the City Wok guy.
Mod down people who tell people how to mod in their sigs
Absolutely right. I got a bit hot under the collar there, geekoid.
I'd like everyone to know that I'm retracting all statements regarding copulating equines.
"In a attempt to supress our coverage, chinese hacked commenced a massive DDOS attack against us using spoofed american IP adresses."
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
Ummm.. hello? Slashdot, will you please sit down and shut up until we get to the end of the discussion?
In case no one else has bothered to notice, there's absolutely NO evidence that this is actually happening. Maybe the gov't of Tawain is just as technically incompotent as the U.S. gubment and they're just being bowled over by shitty administration of their systems. Maybe nothing's happening. Maybe outer space aliens have hidden data signals in their computers that are blocking traffic, who knows?
If I write my name in the paper under the lottery results and put $1,000,000,000,000 next to it, it doesn't really mean I won anything. Sheesh... show a little composure and demand to see at least a tiny bit of evidence before you piss your pants over this...
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
If you find your computers full of trojan horses and the boss comes looking just tell him that your under attack by the Chinese! Yep, boss, I didn't put em there...
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
Furthermore, I heard recently on CNN that the only restriction on defense weapons is that 50% be developed by US companies. Only 50%!!!
IMHO, one of the primary reasons USA is so strong in defense is because all the brains from overseas came to our country to profit from their work and flee from religious persecution. Now we're shipping opportunities overseas and the judge in Alabama is giving people the impression that Christianity is favored over all other religions here. Smooth move (imagine the next Einstein staying overseas and deveoping the next great weapon for some other country instead of us).
What will happen to our national security when we offshore 90%+ of all of our high-tech jobs and what will happen to the national security in countries (like India & China) where most of the high-tech jobs will be based?
And workers of US companies overseas don't have to pay taxes on the first $75,000 so think of all the lost taxes (billions in income taxes alone) that our government loses--not to mention that those workers if based in the US would have spent their earnings here.
Does anyone in Washington give a damn about our future or is it all about returning favors to those who contribute to campaigns while sacrificing our government budgets and national security?
Isn't it retarded to offshore development of critical products like anti-virus software to other countries? If this story about China attacking Taiwan (which I thought was part of China) is true, then we should stop all security-related software from being offshored--or simply requiring the use of only those developed 100% by companies AND individuals with security clearances.
Numerous military officials retired from Taiwan's armed forces have gone to Beijing to give secrets about American weapons sold to Taiwan. In fact, Beijing now knows the performance characteristics of the F-16 fighter.
Carter had education & training as an engineer (including nuclear) which is why he was able to go to Three Mile Island and not put in just a token appearance. This was a bit of a shock to the idiots who wanted to talk down to him.
Carter was absolutely, undeniably, one of the worst presidents this country has ever seen. He attempted to micromanage the entire US Government single-handedly. Track down pictures of him before and after he was in office. He aged about thirty years during that time. When he left office, inflation was 14%; mortgage rates were 22%. Compare that to the previous ten years (now): 2%-3% inflation and 5%-8% (max) mortgage rates.
That said (I'm sure pro-Carter folks have stopped reading because they've made their minds made up by now as to what I'm saying (or not)), Carter has been probably our best ex-president this country has ever seen and will will ever see, bar none. It's unfortunate he didn't handle his time in office better so it makes it difficult to weigh whether what he's done since leaving outweighs what he did in office.
For those who weren't around then:
"On today's menu: A Jimmy Carter sandwich (Peanut Butter and balonga sandwich)"
Popular Slogan: "Fritz and Gritz"
And last, but not least, his brother Billy, who had a brand of beer named after him (Billy Beer) and had the practice of unzipping and relieving himself in some of the most unusual places (e.g., the side of an airport building, in plain view to anyone who wanted to watch).
Is that these attacks are being committed by provocateurs who are purposely trying to cause a war between the two.
Some people in Taiwan do. tehy're about 5% of the population. I'd say at least 5% of the american population is pretty insane too. China's geopolitical objectives include taking over Taiwan....This "report" is biased to say the least and full of outright mistakes, e.g.:
"Eighty-five percent (85%) of the people of Taiwan are Chinese. Only fifteen percent (15%) are Taiwanese"
This is not true, in fact it's the reverse.
When you consider the rate at which the chinese population es expanding, and the fact that there culure is more important then the type of government, they will be the world power. barring some catastrophic event, mandarin will probably be a 'common' language in 100 years.
All China has to do is wait, and there culture will dominate the world.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Anyone else see the problem with this?
Where do you want to be, What are you doing to get there.
"If this story about China attacking Taiwan (which I thought was part of China) is true"
My bad, I confused Hong Kong and Taiwan in my haste.
It is actually worse than I thought--if a country does this to another, isn't it essentially an act of war???
wow, a discourse, a heated reply, and an apology. who are you, and where is the real slashdot?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Whatever, I sympathize with Taiwan.
But recently they decided to launch an internal drug war of their own, executing on average about 1000 drug dealers a month. So if China wants to invade, as far as I'm concerned, its not my problem.
Wish them luck because they're going to need it.
Perhaps they should have practiced a little solidarity instead of killing people over something as stupid as the drug trade.
Can a mite war be that far behind?
Glad I got that skull gun set up with cripplers and Hellfires.
who are you, and where is the real slashdot?
.009: M.I.6 agent with a License to Assume the Port of Mars.
He's Henry V
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
Carter was an officer for several years on a submarine. He helped establish a nuclear propulsion training program for enlisted personal. He was a fine officer and served for over seven years.
Hoist Number One and Number Six.
Primarily because every good grand strategy game allows you to continue trading with the enemy even while you are at war with them.
Laws are for people with no friends.
You can't really take a pee in China without government sanction. If you think that rebellious feeling Chinese can just spontaneously gather and cary out a non-approved actiivty, then I have a nice prison cell filled with falun gong practicers to sell you. Get real.
"He who laughs last, didn't get the joke."-Cap
executing on average about 1000 drug dealers a month.
What are you smoking? Taiwan barely executes anyone and is phasing out the penalty. You may be thinking about Sinapore which executes a large number of drug dealers. About 40 a year.
Fight the man!
Even back then we predicted this type of thing, now China is doing it. What about the bigger, more dangerous predictions? How long until someone hacks cooling control systems and makes a nuclear plant go critical? What about causing planes to crash by hacking the ATC? Someday...
Sarcasm and hyperbole are the final refuges for weak minds
1st, Taiwan staged its largest-ever war games a few days back. It's trying to take an even-more-solid defensive posture because it knows that the US is too bogged down in Iraq to come fully to its defense if China invades soon.
2nd, when I worked in Taiwan in the late 80s, there was a single pipe into the country which the government heavily monitored. The pipe's much fatter now. Anyone know how heavy the monitoring is these days?
3rd, the mainland would be totally stupid not to try to break into Taiwanese databases. Any professional intelligence agency anywhere in the world has people assigned to breaking into friends' and neighbors' databases.
4th, the government on Taiwan is the only legitimate government of China. We may be making a terrible mistake not to back it, and not to demand the dissolution of the illegitimate government on the mainland. But hey, the mainland will sell us cheap goods made with slave and prison labor - good enough for us....
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
This is yet another case where Windows is not the solution, it's the problem. Any chance of Taiwam switching to a different OS for its servers?
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
...and during those 5000+ years, most of what is *now* China hasn't been a part of China. If you want to get a hard-on about the ageless motherland, you're limiting yourself to the Yellow River Basin. Don't bother to poke at the relative youth of the USA. We're not the ones trying to drag the unwilling into our Union. Anyway, the Revolution was supposed to wash away the bad old days, eh? A fresh start. Or, are we finally admitting that 1949 was just the start of a new dynasty for the Middle Country?
Putting Chinese history into an American context, Taiwan is their Puerto Rico, if not their Canal Zone.
As for superpower of the future, maybe. Possible stumbles along the way include:
- the (post?) Party apparatus dragging down the economy with endemic graft.
- the one-child policy, while a success in throttling the population explosion, is causing a massive geriatric surge. A (still) primarily agricultural nation is headed for the gray demographics of Japan.
Luke, help me take this mask off
I believe you are committing the falacy of analogy. Why don't you say: "File sharing is illegal, but you defend it. Murder is illegal. Therefore you defend murder." Sorry, but that just doesn't hold water. Relying on analogies as the sole justification for an argument often shows a weak argument.
The government of Tiwan is a government, not a female jogger. It has certain duties. Let's say that our military left guns lying around unguarded, and someone stole them and attacked us. Would you let the military completly off the hook because "its not our fault, we were robbed, which is illegal"?
Sarcasm and hyperbole are the final refuges for weak minds
I think it is TIME FOR A CHINESE FIRE(wall) DRILL!
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
>> Yu made the remark yesterday morning during the weekly closed-door Cabinet meeting.
No I didn't. And learn to spell "you"!
My other car is first.
the Chinese are actually trying to HELP the Taiwanese... their plan is to take over all the Windows machines and install Linux on them!
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
Yes, I would say there are a lot of turncoats in Taiwan, but most of them belong to the former ruling party, the KMT. These people were ethnic chinese who moved over after they lost the civil war. They have little affinity for President Chen, or Taiwan. These people support the one china policy. But most people in Taiwan, do not. Most support independence now or later. A vast majority (95%) do not want anything to do with communist china. In 1994, Taiwan renounced all claims to the Mainland. In 1994, Taiwan renounced all claims to the Mainland. But you keep on acting as if most Taiwanese (daiwanlang) are keen on China dominating the world. They're not. THey support the US against China.
As for spies, we spy against allies and vice versa. And yes, the Chinese do target disgruntled Taiwanese, just like they and the soviets targeted disgruntled americans. I think taiwan is the only country to have a movement to make it the 51st state. have you even been to taiwan, bro? At anyrate, you really need to modify some of the erroneous information in your little geocities article, eg the ethnic makeup of taiwan.
Actually a lot of the air traffic control systems are still running on antiquated equipment. We're talking about vacuum tubes. Perhaps someone with a high pitched falsetto making a prank call could send thousands of airplanes spinning out of control with just the right frequency.
The Taipei government is saying that the attacks are trojan-horses against windows machines that are being staged to break in to government databases
This is a no-brainer... should have used Linux instead !!
Mmm, what makes you say this? Oh, I know. A war in Iraq, right? Saddams and miloshevitches of the world are the only people to feel less secure because of it. Not much less secure, unfortunately -- thanks to you and your kind.
Confucionism or not, China maintains huge army and is known to have used it for highly illegal purposes. Your heart, I'm sure, bleeds, because of the questionable legal grounds for attacking Iraq, but you don't seem to care for China's annexation of Tibet and parts of India's northeast -- for which there are no legal grounds at all.
Criticizing US' and praising China's foreign (and domestic) policies in one breath is sheer stupidity.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
I assume that China is after one of two things:
1) To retreive confidential Taiwanese info
2) To alter/manipulate confidential Taiwanese info
Since Taiwan is aware of the issue, why not get a couple of the local white-hats to put up honeypots to fool (2), and start feeding back false info to screw up (1)?
Most do speak mandarin, but most 1st language is Taiwanese. Look at President Chen. My mandarin (at least the pronounciation) is better than his, and I'm a whitey.
Again, most people 80% are Taiwanese origin
I just called your bluff, dogg
hm. well, this depends on your definitions of 'Chinese' and 'Taiwanese'. would you count as 'Taiwanese' an individual whose parents were born in China, but moved to Taiwan? see, over the centuries, lots of people in China kept relocating to Taiwan... erk.
hihihi
What's really interesting is that Microsoft allowed China access to the source code from Windows. Could the Chinese have used this information to aid in attacking Taiwan?
Well, overall, I disagree with your simplistic, racist rhetoric, and take exception to it. But, I don't feel like engaging in a flame war, and I'm willing to learn. A google search for Bo Yang turns up a lot of garbage.... can you refer me to some material that may enlighten me?
----
Not to be confused with Col.
Bad grammar aside: Who the fuck cares, even if he is symapthizing with the communists. This isn't the McCarthy era anymore son. People aren't sent to jail for having opposing views (cept' Arabs and any other group the Bushies can't get their pea brains around)
Mainly the only communists in China are the unelected government (not so unlike the U.S.A these days) including the million or so in the army (though I highly doubt all of them even, buy the partyline hook and sinker), so to have sympathy with the people labled Commies just for being born in China is completely logical.
~~I went to battle M.C. Escher, but drew a blank...~~
"Chinese Army of Hackers" = 13 year old looking for Anna Kournikova pictures.
Regarding the UN, know that the government of Taiwan, i.e. the original government of China before the communist revolution, was once a veto holding member of the UN after the second world war. It was only until the UN accepted "People's Republic of China" to join the UN as well, the arrogant taiwanese government decided to leave the UN as an act of protest. However, since then the US has always stayed more on Taiwan's side because of its "leader of the free world/communist fighter" status.
I was born in Taiwan, half brought up there and half in Canada. All my childhood I've learned that the big piece of land across the Taiwan Strait BELONGS to the government of Taiwan. And the People's Republic of China is nothing but a bogus government, that will go down any day. What a surprise it's been for all of us.
--
sure I'll have a sig.
Bo Yang is a Taiwanese liberal who says that most of Chinese culture should be gutted. He wrote a book call "The Ugly Chinaman" and wound up in jail for eight years for his troubles. He writes about aspects of Chinese culture that must change, if China is to improve itself.
First, China must give up it's unwillingness to examine its own culture in a self critical light. The Chinese have a very bad habit of this. What is learned from the master must be taught to the student, and the student may make no alterations to what he has learned.
Second, China must give up it's intolerance. Chinese are, for the most part, far more racist than Europeans or even modern Japanese.
Chinese must also remove the idea that everyone is an enemy. Although Chinese work together very well, there is a cultural paranioa about being taken advantage of. To this end, most Chinese work to screw the other guy before he can screw you.
Chinese must develop more independent thoughts and not be afraid to take risks. Only the person who stands out can accomplish new things. Group think leadership leads, almost inevitably, to destruction. Furthermore, this leads to a destruction of human rights. If it is a Chinese tradition to castrate a boy, no one will ever say no, and if they do, they'll be killed. China was the only culture to use eunichs so extensively and for so long.
Finally, Chinese must question themselves as to why they do things. It's easy not to do this, but the rewards for introspection are greater. This would also involve moving to a phoenician script (romanji).
BTW. I'm not racist. I am however, in favor of Western culture as the most benevolent culture. I'm engaged to a very beautiful girl from a town on the Yellow River. I won't, for obvious reason, say which one. We'll be married in December. I love her and my future family very much, but I will have relatives who were killed by the Chinese communists. I'm not a fan.
Hoist Number One and Number Six.
And we should just allow this kind of proliferation of WMDs in Asia? Why isn't the US already bombing the shit out of them?
Because Taiwan has no oil and the Chinese army is really big. Body bags can really put the whammy on a re-election, or I should say election, campaign. The current regime is making Nixon look good.
Another day closer to redwood heaven
And during the decades of UN sanctions, did Saddam show any tendency to attack his neighbours or anyone else?
WTF, is this a joke? What are Iran and Kuwait? How about the Kurds?
But nice post though. It's not like Hu Flung Pu couldn't have downloaded the damn M$ patches that have been out there from months. Epic take on things.
(I'd appreciate your not prejudging what I write below based on my nick)
I'm Chinese, I don't hate Taiwan. I sure bet the Chinese in Taiwan don't hate Taiwan.
What is true though, is that many (perhaps most) mainland chinese are against any notion of Taiwan as an independent sovereigh state. You may say they are all brainwashed by communist propaganda, but the Chinese (at least the Han nationality) have firmly believed in the unity of the people as a whole for THOUSANDS of years. Much of Chinese history has been centered around unifying the country. As of now, I myself don't see how an independent (bona-fide UN member) Taiwan is necessarily a contradiction to this unity, but many Chinese do. In any case, "hate" is really not the right word to use here. "Angry" is more appropriate.
Officially boxer's rebellion was localized riots against foreigners. Unofficially it was condoned if not encouraged by the emperial court.
Officially the crack attacks were by "script kiddies" in China against "a rogue Chinese province." Unofficially...
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
The most distributed attack ever. Every person in China tried pinging the Taiwan sites at the same time.
mod this guy up- he's not trolling, he's right! Clancy has some technical knowledge, but often he uses more fiction than fact, and it's disturbing how often he and others of his ilk are treated as authorities on subjects merely because they wrote a book no more accurate than Jurassic Park or Congo
I find it odd that these claims of "cracker attacks from China" are being made... At the same time that Blaster has been spreading like wildfire and stressing backbone routers worldwide with the obscene amount of traffic it generates? Oh, and there's a new worm going around too, Welchia. The second worm since I started work deemed important enough to send an email to employees asking them to run a special scan tool rather than relying on Nortan Antivirus Corporate Edition to catch it.
Any other time and I might believe them, but now, I can only say to Taiwan: Don't think you're special. You aren't.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Why not escalate this to the next level and have one country flood the other with cheap copies of cheap copies of pirated software to destroy that piece of the economy?
"Now copy of pirate copy of Wnidows [sic] NT 4.0... only $.10!"
Diplomacy is the art of saying, "Nice doggie!" until you can find a rock.
Sino culture is different. There are no individuals in China. Nobody thinks of themselves as individuals and this hive mind mentality makes propaganda spread easily. Those that think of themselves as individuals tend to be visiting Western professors under state surveillance or Chinese citizens in prison.
Americans have their behavior rooted in a mythology of distant settlers fucking over a detached empire. If you want to call that mythology overrated, maybe you have a case. If you want to call that mythology false, just try to push the citizen next to you and hope he doesn't have a gun.
Any individuality that China had either ran like Hell or was ruthlessly slaughtered during Mao's Cultural Revolution.
Laws are for people with no friends.
Dissertations are written about this, which should add creedence to my point that there is a big difference between Those who live on Taiwan and those in China.
I would define it by how people identify themselves, what their native language is, etc. Of course, there is a "new taiwanese" as well. Most people define Taiwanese as those who immigrated to Taiwan prior to Japanese colonialization in '95. Taiwanese is a dervative of Fujianhua. And then, of course, there is the unpleasantness of the aborignes, who have taken it in the ass from everyone.
http://cryptome.org/cuw01.htm
Would that be the same Kurds Winston Churchill ordered to be attacked with poison gas?
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
I'm engaged to a very beautiful girl from a town on the Yellow River.
I bet you remind her of the yellow river every night.
What? Those dinosaurs weren't real??
The government on Taiwan is not the legitimate government of China. The majority of Chinese expelled the Taiwanese government out of China in 1949. The Taiwanese government ransacked China and stole all the national treasures of China during the flight to Taiwan.
However, the government of Taiwan does support nearly all the geopolitical objectives of mainland China. While the Taiwanese demand that the Americans sell weapons to them, the Taiwanese insist that Tibet is part of China. Meanwhile, the Chinese soldiers are beating and killing Tibetan nuns. Taiwanese hypocrisy is disgusting. (The Taiwanese constitution states explicitly that Tibet is part of China.)
Instead of supporting the Taiwanese government, the Americans should terminate their relationship with Taiwan. The American government should end the Taiwan Relations Act (TRA) and require all Taiwanese nationals to produce a Beijing passport if they wish to apply for a visa to the USA.
Why?
~Idarubicin
require all Taiwanese nationals to produce a Beijing passport if they wish to apply for a visa to the USA.
Don't forget to make them have a stop in the PRC's slave labor camps, the laogai(reform/reeducation through labor camps), for full compliance!
the Taiwan gov has held free elections, I think that gives them legitimacy over the island. et china?
A-kz"I'-c.
Remember the incident at Tienanmen Square in 1989. After it happened, the Americans and other Westerners froze or curtailed investments into mainland China. Even the Japanese followed suit, and for the first time after 1945, the Japanese condemned China. Western nations like Japan and the USA immediately slapped economic sanctions against China.
What did the Chinese in Taiwan and Hong Kong do? The Taiwanese immediately seized this window of opportunity and accelerated financial and technological investments into China. The Taiwanese provided any money or technology that the Westerners refused to provide . Since 1989, Taiwanese investment into mainland China has grown at double-digit rates. As of 2003, the Taiwanese have invested more than $50 billion into more than 50,000 businesses into mainland China.
Furthermore, the Taiwanese request and receive preferential treatment when they invest in China. By contrast, American companies do not receive preferential treatment. The Chinese government occasionally punishes American companies because the American government sells weapons to Taiwan. While the Taiwanese demand that Americans sell them weapons, the Taiwanese insist that Tibet is part of China: the Taiwanese constitution says that Tibet is part of China.
The time has come to stop this nonsense. The Americans should cancel the Taiwan Relations Act (TRA) and stop selling weapons to Taiwan. The Taiwanese have exploited American generosity and naiveness. Americans should not allow Taiwanese hypocrisy to hurt American business opportunities in China.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/doctrine/unres w1.htm
stargoat:
now that i've read your clarification, i see that you're informed on the topic and not some wacky bigot, although i would honestly have been hard pressed to recognize that just on the parent.
anyway, there's really 2 things you're talking about here, though, i think:
1. chinese government, which i think we can all agree needs to die and right quick. yes?
2. chinese culture. you're right that chinese culture is inherently introspective and xenophobic, as is the case in much of asia. you're also right that there is (generally speaking) greater weight accorded to tradition.
that being said: i don't agree w/ your assertion that western culture is necessarily more benevolent. certainly it's better at promoting those ideals we in the west hold dear, but then again, that's true of any culture. as to more benevolent, without qualifier? how would you define "benevolent"?
i should also point out that feudal china would have been hard-pressed to extend beyond its borders more than they already did (e.g., korean peninsula): the land was vast and largely homogenous. this is in significant contrast to the mediterranean and most of western euruope through which the roman empire spread. as a result, an apples: apples comparison to the roman empire is fraught w/ qualifiers that make such comparison problematic.
and, as the son of south korean immigrants to the US, i should point out that while certain western ideals are being adopted, it's overstating the case to say that's true across the board.
and i'm curious to know the basis behind your statement that pure chinese culture is worthless. you appear to base that on its lack of applicability to modern times (although the art of war springs to mind as a notable exception), that it "only teaches cowardice and bullying" and a generally higher regard for tradition than found in most western cultures. and i'm very curious how you define "pure chinese culture", for that matter.
ed
perfers his packets routed, not dropped.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Holy shit. Maybe your sig should say "click here to feed the harmless trolls". Damn.
Anyway, here I go, dinner is served:
" First, China must give up it's unwillingness to examine its own culture in a self critical light. The Chinese have a very bad habit of this. What is learned from the master must be taught to the student, and the student may make no alterations to what he has learned."
This is partially true - Chinese do tend to hold their own culture in a very high light, but that's only because they have had an incredible history of cultural, scientific, and economic achievement. Nowadays, many Chinese will tell you that China is "lou hou" which means backwards - they realize they have catching up to do. Their educational system does not promote free thinking, that's true, but you really can't argue that the US system bows down to the altar of originality either. Both are repressive in different areas.
" Second, China must give up it's intolerance. Chinese are, for the most part, far more racist than Europeans or even modern Japanese."
That's mostly true, but again - racism is racism, and just because we're more politically incorrect in the West doesn't mean that people don't harbor racist feelings - they just don't speak of them.
" Chinese must also remove the idea that everyone is an enemy. Although Chinese work together very well, there is a cultural paranioa about being taken advantage of. To this end, most Chinese work to screw the other guy before he can screw you."
Oops, you fucked up. Study some history - China has repeatedly been raped by foreigners and foreign powers, with it all culiminating with the West seriously abusing China during the early 1900's. Great Britain, Germany, the US, and many other foreign countries took over parts of major Chinese cities and forced China to trade with the west, often at miserable prices. In addition, Great Britain sucessfully hooked the entire nation on opium so that China would have something they wanted to trade for. This paranoia of the West is founded, and not illogical. Remember pal, the world was around before you existed, and some of us take the time to study history.
You obviously need to spend some more time in China - your reaction to Chinese culture is typical of a foreigner who has had only limited exposure with China and her people. Live in the country for more than 15 years, and you'll be more adept at separating genuine Chinese culture from the Communist disaster.
And please, your blowing Western culture without "examining it in a critical light" reeks of hypocrisy. Remember - "It's easy not to do this, but the rewards for introspection are greater."
$45 per U Colocation Special
What terrorists? No link has been made between Iraq and any terrorists yet. Nuclear-toting bufoons? I thought Bush was an American, not an Iraqi.
Like who? Sure they give billions of dollars worth of WOMD to Israel. And they sometimes give away their surplus genetically modified food to countries who don't want it. The problem with US 'aid' is that it comes with a dick rammed up the arse - ie the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. The US doesn't 'give' anything away when you consider the aims of these 2 organisations.
So, sir, what exactly were you talking about?
A democratic nation is building up defenses against a large, nuclear-armed tyranny and that's a threat to piece? Are you brain-damaged?
Hey, let Taiwan have nukes. It'll go a long way towards keeping China from invading. Eventually, China will be a democracy and *then* they can reunite. If they want to.
No, those Kurds probably died of old age before Saddam gassed them.
Is it the view of the left that it's not evil if it's something a democracy has done at some point in history? Cause, you know, that would really cut down on the list of evil things. Slavery, burning cities to the ground, giving smallpox infested blankets to natives.
Hmmm. From last to first.
Pure Chinese culture is just something I'm tossing out there as an idea that Taiwan and Mainland China have now two seperate cultures. But, at the same time, they also come from the same culture and they have that in common. It's that initial culture to which I refer. I would also point out that the actions of those mainland China is more influenced by the older Chinese ideology. (But, I maintain a glimmer of hope for the 4th generation. Even if it is dying quickly.)
I'm not really concerned with Chinese Communism. I think of it really as an extension of Imperial Chinese behavior. The differences between Jiang Zemin and a Han emperor are less than the differences between Jiang Zemin and Chen Shui-bian.
The idea of Western culture as being more benevolent is one that is so taken for granted, that it is hard to see how it is so. The Chinese in 1867 would never have acknowledged that a person has the right to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. Remember, they are still castrating little boys at a time when all white Americans (heck, all male Americans over 21, in theory) are voting. Entire families are punished routinely by the government for the transgressions of one.
The Chinese mainland government still does not acknowledge these are basic human rights. People are routinely locked up for talking to the wrong person. People are disappeared for saying the wrong things. The Taiwanese government used to be the same way. But, the Taiwanese government has really improved in the past 20 years. It's better than some Western countries now.
The individual has the right to freedom and life in Western culture. This is benevolence of man to government and government to man. This is something that Chinese culture simply doesn't acknowledge. Confucius may have said that some sort of noblese oblige was necessary, but no one cared. All they cared for was filiopiety at best; endless sacrifice of self and family was the norm.
Furthermore, when you look at how Chinese view their religion as compared to Westerners, you'll quickly discover that Westerners take their religion and their "self-rightesousness" much more seriously. Now, that's not to say that there are not some spiritual Chinese. But by and large, the Chinese culture is one that is unconcerned with spirituality. This also means (once again, not always) that they tend to take a less active role in the welfare of their fellow man than someone from a Abrahamic (Western) religion (culture).
The bit about Chinese Imperial size is just in there because people seem to have this impression that China was monolithic. It wasn't. It only controlled Taiwan and Tibet for a few decades. Now, the Communists impose their will on those people as a result of a false historical claim. Heck, they provoked a war in Vietnam and India for the same reason. (I think they've been at war at some point with most of their neighbors in the past 50 years). I want to point out that the Chinese empire is not Roman in length and strength.
As for Chinese culture teaching only cowardice and bullying, this is true. Look at how many Chinese conduct themselves in debates. It's not unusual to see a fight break out in legislative assemblies in China. Furthermore, Chinese leaders have, for more than a millenia, taught their peasants to always back down. There is no human drive for satisifaction of self happiness, or in extreme cases, self preservation. It's better to follow authority. One extreme example is of the Japanese Massacre at Nanking. Try and image a Westerner (especially an American) tolerate what happened. A Westerner would sooner die that wait slowly while 30 people before him were decapiated.
Chinese culture has almost nothing to redeem it. (Although I am fond of some of the artwork of countrysides and the minimalists, I will admit.) It simply isn't as good as Western culture.
This is NOT to say that Chinese are bad people. This has nothing to do wit
Hoist Number One and Number Six.
Resume: George W Bush
Past work experience:
Ran for congress and lost.
Produced a Hollywood slasher B movie.
Bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas, company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.
Bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using tax-payer money. Biggest move: Traded Sammy Sosa to the Chicago White Sox.
With fathers help (and his name) was elected Governor of Texas.
Accomplishments: Changed pollution laws for power and oil companies and made Texas the most polluted state in the Union. Replaced Los Angeles with Houston as the most smog ridden city in America. Cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas government to the tune of billions in borrowed money. Set record for most executions by any Governor in American history.
Became president after losing the popular vote by over 500,000 votes, with the help of my fathers appointments to the Supreme Court.
Accomplishments as president:
Attacked and took over two countries.
Spent the surplus and bankrupted the treasury.
Shattered record for biggest annual deficit in history.
Set economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period.
Set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market.
First president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.
First president in US history to enter office with a criminal record.
First year in office set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history.
After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, presided over the worst security failure in US history.
Set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips than any other president in US history.
In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their job.
Cut unemployment benefits for more out of work Americans than any president in US history.
Set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12 month period.
Appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history.
Set the record for the least amount of press conferences than any president since the advent of television.
Signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any president in US history.
Presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.
Presided over the highest gasoline prices in US history and refused to use the national reserves as past presidents have.
Cut healthcare benefits for war veterans.
Set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind. (http://www.hyperreal.org/~dana/marches/)
Dissolv ed more international treaties than any president in US history.
My presidency is the most secretive and un-accountable of any in US history.
Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. (the 'poorest' multi-millionaire, Condoleeza Rice has an Chevron oil tanker named after her).
First president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously go bankrupt.
Presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud of any market in any country in the history of the world.
First president in US history to order a US attack and military occupation of a sovereign nation.
Created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States.
Set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any president in US history.
First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the human rights commission.
First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the elections monitoring board.
Removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US history.
Rendered the entire Unite
If no one wants US aid, then they should stop offering it I suppose.
Q.
I am not speaking about the way that the Chinese treat foreigners. I am speaking of the way Chinese treat each other. I am not talking about Chinese paranoia of the west, I am talking about Chinese paranoia of Chinese.
It's time to quit spouting the multicultural BS and start thinking about the way things really are. If you've spent 15 years in China, then you would know of what it is I speak.
Hoist Number One and Number Six.
Regan is a old man with "alzheimers". Again, he did a lot of good, but sill managed to willfully break the law--better keeping quiet. As well as his lacky (responsible for pulling off the whole Iran-Contra thing) Bush Sr. who also needs to keep quiet to avoid jail time for the incident.. and like republicans, spend their time and wealth on themselves! Clinton left the position with all sorts of personal problems (whitewater, Paula, Monica, etc) that again, he's better off shutting up to stay out of jail.
So realize that Carter can spout off all he wants. He's the only living american president not to have any reason to go to jail..that would seem to be pretty impressive. Also, the contacts that a president makes have huge weight in the rest of the world. Carter seems to be the only President to make anything of them. (OK, Nixon did help out in China. That had to take guts.)
He inherited a disgraced position after years of presidents that started wars and trampled on rights. He was the first president since FDR that didn't throw the country INTO a war and tried to end some of them.
It's not really that either. In fact, it's not really an analog to the U.S. experience at all. Because Nationalist China, though recognized as the government of China in the 1930's and 40's, never had full legitimate control over the country. It was a period of unrest in which the old regime crumbled, several new regimes vied for power, foreign nations assumed various levels of control over parts of the country, and eventually three main rivals emerged. The Communists, the Nationalists and the Japanese. After the Japanese were defeated, with Soviet help the Communists took over, but the Nationalists managed to hold onto a few islands with the treat of intervention by the U.S. I'm not sure of Taiwan's claims at this point, but China, having the bulk of the population of the former area of China, claims that it is theirs. It's much more analogus to Turkey claiming Egypt because of the former Ottoman rule, but only if they had maintained that claim since they lost it.
That's gotta fit into your schema somewhere
Its the view that evil is as evil does. So if our modern democracies have done evil acts, proclaming others as evil for doing the same thing is hypocracy. Usually they are downright lies anyway. Iraq is a very mild agressor compared to the United States or Great Britain. So when is Bush going to bomb BG? Or Isreal? They have weapons of mass destruction, and have huge terrorist groups within...
With the dubious nature of the 'proof' offered so far for Iraq's WOMD, I am highly suspicious of 'proof' of any other country's WOMD 'stockpiles'.
The US only has itself to blame over Afghanistan. The CIA have been in there for 40 years, pushing their own political agenda, and growing MJ for conversion to hash and Opium for conversion to heroin so they can sell it on the black market and donate the funds to US-friendly military dictatorships. Note the target of the Taliban attack: the WTC building and the Pentagon. I think they were making a statement; they certainly weren't random targets. You reap what you sow.
As for North Korea, I still assert that there is far more proof of US and Israeli stockpiles of WOMD than North Korea could ever hope to have. Want to rid the world of Nuclear-toting bufoons? Disarm the US first. We don't have to destroy every WOMD they have - just 99% of them, so their stockpiles are more in-line with the rest of the world. Then you may resume bitching about North Korea.
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Carter is NOT an elected official anymore (see my post above)... he just acts like one, and worse, he's one with NO accountability. He's not president now, and he needs to start acting like the regular citizen he is, instead of screwing with things he's uninformed on.
Whenever he places himself in the midst of a negotiation or international crisis, he runs the risk of sending mixed messages to the parties involved. If you get terrorist/thug/dictator/third-world-strongman listening to Carter instead of Bush, one might get the idea that the US isn't serious about backing up their positions... that's a BAD, BAD thing, especially for the parties that will actually have to answer to the voters. Carter only has to answer to Rosalyn.
Carter needs to stay out of situations where he doesn't have the intel, hasn't heard the briefings, has no clout, and isn't accountable.
There's plenty of good reasons why ex-presidents are encouraged to be cautious about what they say. I get the impression that some people think ex-presidents are circumspect about their remarks just to be nice...
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
> This is the US Seccession War all over, one hundred fifty years later.
IANAExpertOnThis, but as far as I can tell from my historical atlases and articles like this, the ethnic and historical connection between Taiwan and China are actually somewhat weak and mostly recent.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Maybe the "decades of sanctions" part is a joke, as the UN sanctions were imposed after Iraq invaded Kuwait, so "decades" is clearly wrong. However during the actual period of time Iraq was under UN sanctions they did not attack anyone other than internal dissidents. With the largest incident being the Shi'ite revolt following the end of Desert Storm that we, (The US), encouraged and then watched them die by the thousands after we did nothing to help them. Other than that there were certainly dozens of countries and leaders who did much worse than Hussein and Iraq during the last 10+ years. When was the last time you heard about the Congo on FAUX News?
Anti-social? My code is just platform-specific.
That's not the point. The point is not to use closed-source software anymore. If their software was supplied with source code, they could have scanned it thoroughly for trojans before implementing it.
With a cleverly designed trojan, you'd have to really work hard to find it. At the very least, you would want to have an international team where such code would be questioned. I find it very unlikely that e.g. Linus would accept a trojan patch, but who's to say about a Chinese-dominated or Chinese-led project? OSS is still no magic bullet, even if in theory you *could* find all trojans...
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Does anyone remember the PROMIS debacle?
Far from outrageous, I think this should be a basic principle for all national security/mission critical projects.
I am not opposed to out sourcing per se, but not to the exclusion of basic common sense and self preservation.
Q.
Insert Signature Here
Foo: Who let the hax0rs out?
leet, 133t, 1337!
Bar: Now that is funny
And me with out mode points...
Yeah, it's funny, in an -1, Offtopic kind of way.
On the other hand, if the title of the article were "Barbados Under Cyber Attack from Jamaica" -- well that would be 5, Funny.
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
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Either it's not static, or it is static and some gremlin has changed it to accomodate for the expectations of having been slashdotted.
I can feel my sanity, beyond my reach and slipping...
I'm sorry, you're right, it was in Thailand not Taiwan. Big difference. My bad. :P
You may be thinking about Sinapore...
No, I was thinking of Thailand. And I probably wouldn't even hear about 40 executions per year, but 1000 a month might get my attention. Not that I agree with the drug trade, but I think execution is rather harsh.
That should read: "Taiwan Uses Windows to Host Government Databases"
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
It really must take a lot of brainwashing in Poly Sci class, a lot of New York Times reading, or just a lot of good old fashioned Communist sympathizing, to wrap your head around that.
Chinese history in general is about as "byzantine" as anything I've read about. The love/hate relationship with the merchant class alone is frightening. I can tell you this: I wouldn't want to become a prominent figure in Chinese politics or business for anything. Waaay too dangerous for me.
Tweet, tweet.
The fact is that some aspects of Chinese culture suck, and some aspects of Western culture suck.
You seem to be shifting your focus around quite a bit - first it's the West sucks, now it's Chinese that suck, but only towards each other.
Sure, there's lots of corruption and dirty business in China, but there's just as much in the West, and as someone who's done business extensively in both cultures, this isn't just my fuzzy dream of how things should be.
Your hatred of the communist government is definitely justified, but your blanket statements regarding Chinese culture, a culture which is roughly 1/5 of the world's population, is stupid and naive.
$45 per U Colocation Special
I just want to quickly say that, this is the point where the UN should be getting involved in this dispute. Why does everyone always wait until there is massive death and destruction before they try to resolve a conflict?
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
85% of the Taiwanese consider themselves "Chinese" and also support the idea that Taiwan is part of China. They also support the idea that Tibet is part of China.
Remember Tibet? That place is where the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) have tortured and killed Tibetan nuns and priests. Please visit the websites for Amnesty International and Tibet Online.
While the Chinese PLA is committing gross violations of human rights in Tibet, the Taiwanese support a Taiwanese constitution that insists on integrating Tibet into China. Furthermore, the Taiwanese education system teaches Taiwanese children that Tibet is part of China.
In the United States of America (USA), the majority of spies who steal American technology to give to Beijing were born or grew up in Taiwan. Another unusual aspect of these spies is that the majority help Beijing for no financial gain whatsoever. They help Beijing simply because they consider themselves Chinese and because, according to the spies, China is the motherland.
Please read "Understanding Taiwan: Security Threat to the USA".
The time has come to end the hypocrisy and the nonsense from Taiwan. Americans should cancel the Taiwan Relations Act (TRA) and should stop selling weapons to Taiwan.
The ironic thing about that, of course, is that the Chinese remember Nixon quite fondly; he broke through to China with his '72 visit, a pretty amazing feat soon overshadowed by the famous scandal.
...I wonder if China is going to end up as the next stand-in for the old Soviet union. Espionage, nuke stand-offs and a race to the moon are already in the wings.
Binary geeks can count to 1,023 on their fingers
You would sell out the democratic people of Taiwan to the murderers in Beijing. You would allow to happen to Taiwan the same thing that happens in Tibet.
Hoist Number One and Number Six.
German culture allowed for the murder of 12 million. We forced it to change. Japan murdered 6 million or more. We forced it to change. Russia murdered 12 million. We forced a change. Chinese culture allowed for the murder of 60 million or more. We trade with them.
Surely you'll admit that something here is wrong.
Hoist Number One and Number Six.
Taiwan is the real China, the Beijing regime is just a wannabe.
-uso.
Dreams, dreams, don't doubt dreams, dreaming children's dreaming dreams. Sailor Moon SS
I fail to see why the political objectives of the United States must coincide with those of China. The two countries are rivals. Get over it.
ALL YOUR COUNTRIES ARE BELONG TO US!
Yes, I typed all in caps, and I am yelling... Post Allowed! Woohoo.
Modesty is one of life's greatest attributes
Do you nerds feel install trojan into computers of LOW TECH companies is a easier job?
There is a spark in every single flame bait point.
Before everybody starts up with Chinese government conspiracy theories, keep in mind that the Chinese themselves absolutely hate Taiwan
They must hate me too. My logs show Chinese IPs "attacking" my "business looking" ports (https etc.) as well.
Forget nukes. Even in convetional weaponry, we are so far ahead of everyone else that it's laughable. No one even bothers to try and compete with our naval power: We have NINE supercarrier groups. No one else even has ONE, since Russias only one fell apart. Our subs are virtually invincible: they are very hard to detect and target, are superior in almost all respects to other subs (basically, the Hunt for Red October sub made real), and a single one can sink an entire enemy fleet without any danger to itself. In air power, again, no one even bothers to seriously compete. Enemy jets aren't even likely to get off the ground, but if they do, they are ridicously outmatched in terms of radar visibility, speed, and weaponry (it wasn't long ago that China didn't even have many jets with radar, period). We can shut down the communications networks of any nation on earth almost instantly, them track them with our own network of satelites, which no one has any similar ability to take out. We can lauch pinpoint missle strikes anywhere we want, or commence massive bombardment. Since WWII (in which they proved mostly ineffective at anything but fighting each other), the only victories China's army has won are against innocent civilians. They were CREAMED by Vietnam in THREE DAYS of conflict (China invaded). Their army is huge, but archaic and extremely poorly organized: they are skilled mostly at fighting unarmed people, having never seen combat on any major scale. By contrast, the U.S. fields tons of commanders and soliders with plenty of field experience. China, in short, is a joke in terms of conventional power, and they know it. Any exchange between the U.S. is going to either be diplomatic or nuclear. There is just no contest if it comes to "conventional" war.
What does sanctions accomplish? What does stopping trade and investment have to do with helping the cause of human rights. Trade and investment will open up a country to the outside world, including it's values on human rights. Isolation, on the other hand, will basically give the facist Chinese leaders the floor, with no other influences.
And while Taiwan may claim Tibet is part of them... since when have they ever DONE anything even remotely like what China has done? For all the Constitution says, the Taiwanese might have meant that they should ask politely ask Tibet to join.
I lived in Taiwan for 5 years. Hacker wars between the two countries occured several times over the course of those five years. They were mainly nationalistic college kids defacing opposing gov't web sites.
The difference here is one that many have been anticipating for some time. If you read any of the retoric coming out of the communist gov't in regards to Taiwan it is plain as day: They intend to make Taiwan a part of China by WHATEVER MEANS they can. Since they don't have the military means (look it up on FAS.ORG) they've okayed the project to cooridinate a "Cyber" attack on Taiwan.
As far as Taiwanese Government officials talking out their ass's- When have Gov't officials NOT talked out their butts?
It's quite simple. Of the population, 98% is Han Chinese. Of those Han, 85% have ancestors who lived on the islands prior to 1949. This group is most often referred to as the Taiwanese. The other 15% (Mainlanders) consists of persons who emigrated after 1949 and their descendants. To a certain extent, separation of the ethnic groups was encouraged and enforced by KMT policies, but if one feels the need to categorize children of Taiwanese-Mainlander unions, self-identification might be a good place to start.
(For that matter, self determination would be a better solution to the Taiwan "question" than all this sabre-rattling and quoting of self-serving rhetoric.)
WTF are you talking about? We "forced" them to change their culture? Every culture is susceptible to backing a leader who promises the moon and looks like they'll deliver. If you were student of history, which you clearly are not, you'd know that Mao Zedong was castly more palatable to the majority of Chinese and he advocated much more freedom than Chiang Kai Shek. By the way, you seem to want to have Taiwan's baby, and they were under martial law until the mid nineties - that's almost 50 years of continuous political lockdown. What a role model. Please, just be informed. I know it's tempting to choose the easiest answer which conforms to the US Cold War way of thinking, but we've all grown up since then. Cmon little Stargoat, it's time to play ball with the big boys.
$45 per U Colocation Special
Carter is concerned about North Korea and we all should be. The are out of economic resources. Their former families and countrymen to the south are "occupied" by the enemy and are full of resources enough for all of Korea. The North Koreans are approaching the point where they must fight or die! They have a million man [infantry not techies] army and all the food is on the other side of the boarder. Their leaders are dying for Bush to throw the first punch to spark a war...and he is cocky and arrogant enough to be goaded into giving it to them. Unlike Saddam, they want to start a fight, because they can make it really, really messy for us and maybe even win it. We need a committed peacemaker overthere, not someone worried about looking good for the next election!
So because England at one time started a war with France, they shouldn't have declared war on Nazi Germany? And because the US once kicked the Spanish out of the Phillipines, we shouldn't have declared war on the Japanese? You may as well carry your absurd argument to its absurd conclusion.
Terrorists in BG?? I'm going to assume you meant GB, and the IRA, and I'm not quite sure why we should bomb GB because at one time they had IRA terrorists blowing up their citizens.
As far as Isreal and the Palestineans are concerned, anybody with any knowledge of history knows that if you want freedom from an oppressive democracy, a fairly proven way is by peaceful protest (India, South Africa, US civil rights). How successful was the IRA before it renounced terrorism? For the Palestinians to continue using terror attacks against Israel when it'll get them absolutely *no* pity from the vast majority of Americans (who are about the only nation that can yank Israel's chain), shows that they are either 1) complete idiots, 2) that gaining their freedom isn't their ultimate goal, or 3) both. I'm going with 3).
Personally, though, I don't really care. As an agnostic, the fact that extremely religious people are indiscriminately slaughtering each other's women and children something that validates my (lack of) faith.
This suggestion is so creative that I start wondering what's wrong with a country like Taiwan (ROC) that allows its people to protest against its own name, and what's right about a country like China (PRC) that made its people do something like this
by govt of taiwan I think he means the nationalist party as they had (more) control over china than the communist party before the war. But china always been in the UN as they helped form it.
unitednations.com
The United Nations officially came into existence on 24 October 1945, when the Charter had been ratified by China, France, the Soviet Union, the United Kingdom, the United States and by a majority of other signatories. United Nations Day is celebrated on 24 October each year.
Isn't it possible to critise both? That's after all where this discussion originated. I fail to realize how US's questionable behaviour can be justified by referring to other countries questionable behaviour. I for one would say that any country with an army with nuclear weapons are threats to world security.
While it is possible that all of China, or even the Chinese government (fractionated as it is), is sponsoring or willfully allowing these attacks, I honestly doubt it.
While it is also possible that these attacks are being perpetrated to kill MS Windows in order to improve dissemination of the Red (as in Army) Linuxes, I honestly doubt it.
Is it honestly surprising that a group of pissed-off geeks could rally together, perhaps using some sort of Internet Forum of BBS, to give a big "f*** you" to Taiwan and whoever else is being hit (just because Taipei is reporting this doesn't mean China (As in "we didn't mention SARS for a little while; is that all right?" China) or other countries aren't being hit.)?
Personally, I hate the Chinese government, but I wouldn't go so far as "'If there's any lesson from this experience, it is not to use software developed in China or hire Chinese computer programmers, because you're running the risk of having the software you use implanted with the Trojan-horse program,' he said.". Especially since the most famous recent Blaster epidemic came from a geek in the US. Does that mean that "'If there's any lesson from this experience, it is not to use software developed in US or hire American computer programmers, because you're running the risk of having the software you use implanted with the Blaster Worm.'"?
Voodoo Girl is the bomb!
You see, governments tell lies. They tell lies to support themselves.
:
:
When Tony Blair said to the British people
"We are going to attack Iraq because they have WMD, are you with us?"
1 million people took to the London streets to say "no".
They next day he says
"Well, actually we are going to attack Iraq because Saddam is a bad man, are you with us?"
So how can you can't trust what they say?
It is vital that we, the people, keep asking tough questions. Of everybody.
Power corrupts. We must keep asking and demanding scrutiny with public appearance if we are to be able to judge the people we choose to place into power.
They don't know any better than us.
Passive observation is collusion.
The IRA hasn't renounced terrorism. The IRA bombed it's way to the negotiating table.
It's terror campaign was a success.
In India, South Africa and US the movements all used violence to achieve their aims.
All goverments are based on authority through violence.
When you attack people they will reprise.
Oh, by the way, I think you should go and research what an agnostic is before declaring yourself as one.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
To the moderators who chose 'troll' for this post, google for pandanka. Read up a bit on how acolytes are used as nothing but 'cock socks' and slaves...
Everybody wants to 'save' Tibet, but do you have any idea of the kinds of anal rape that little child 'priests' must undergo? Tibet isn't all smiles and prayer wheels, there's a serious, rape-oriented, pedophillic culture there that's actually quite sickening.
And they practiced slavery, from what I understand -- one's priest was also one's owner? Something like that?
The modding of the parent message as "Troll" was completely unfair, in my opinion.
"Orthodoxy is unconsciousness" - Orwell
stargoat:
:D btw: thanks for the clarification re: "pure" chinese culture. that's what i thought you meant but wanted to be sure so i didn't proceed w/ an incorrect assumption.
jeez, where to start...i think i'll take a cue from you and invert points. besides, it appeals to my sense of anal-retentiveness to follow suit.
firstly: when people start dismissing an entire culture, for whatever reason, i get really anxious b/c i often feel that's a precursor to some very hazardous slippery slopes. when you dismiss a culture, you lay the groundwork for dismissing its inhabitants. when you dismiss its inhabitants, well, examine any genocidal atrocity of human existence, whether it be deliberate (e.g., cultural revolution) or incidental (spanish conquistadors inadvertently conducting bio warfare against native south americans). people are products of their culture.
let me hasten to add that i am not saying you are in fact doing this, but your logic appears constructed in such a way as to make that conclusion significantly less difficult.
as to chinese culture teaching cowardice and bullying: sorry, but to me, this is silly. i can go into any culture and w/ sufficient research, find similar examples that could support such an assertion. the columbine shootings, the treatment by the catholic church of child-abuse accusers and accused priests up until the past few years, heck, even fraternity/sorority initiations: these all could serve as examples in US culture.
now, you and i both look at these counter-examples and laugh: that's clearly not the case here. but i submit that it's similarly inaccurate to say this of an entire culture.
chinese views of religion vs. "western" views of religion: this is a judgment call, b/c this requires that we assume that the western treatment of religion is somehow superior, and as theists and atheists have been debating this one for centuries, you'll excuse me if i think the matter is settled? besides, if you're talking western culture, you're really talking christianity and then we need to talk about which sect of christianity, although since we're talking historically, i'd argue the roman catholic church is probably the best candidate.
individual rights vs. group (family, community, etc). the west places a much higher value on the individual than the east and personally, i think there's a lot about the western approach that's way way off: leads to self-absorption and a preoccupation w/ self and hence selfishness. if a group is more than the sum of its parts, then some moderation b/n the emphasis on either group or individual is more reasonable.
overall, though, why are you comparing a single culture (chinese) against a compound culture (western)? that's a false comparison b/c w/ western culture, you can pick & choose national cultures as needed. IMV, this is absolutely not apples to apples. it's more like apple to cornucopia.
ed
Hmmmm. I think I'll go inverted again.
As you've probably guessed, I'm not opposed to all aspects of Chinese culture. But, I'm not going to remain silent either. Other cultures find it easy to critize US culture. Well, I'm going to fire back. Chinese culture has a lot it can learn from Western Culture, and I'm going to point out what it can learn.
When I say Western Culture, I should be specific and say Western Enlightment Culture (American and modern more or less), although that's kind of the point in history when it ceases to be a culture, and more of a way of thought. Kind of. Hmmmm. Better definitions are needed. But that's my bench mark and I'll stick to it.
Now, why am I picking on Chinese culture? First, because it's so damn big. As a world citizen, I think it would be recalcatrent of me not to critically appraise a culture that composes 20% of the world's population. Also, the more time I spend with Chinese, the more I feel like some of this culture is beginning to be my own. And I don't like some of what I see.
I do the same for US culture. It just doesn't earn me as many foes or as much notice, as more people are use to it. :)
Chinese culture is admirably focused off the individual, but it does so in an incorrect manner, which leads to poor results. I believe that you and I would both agree with it is an individual actions that deservce notice or emphasis. Chinese culture de-emphasises the individual without placing emphasis on (or often even recognizition of) individual accomplishments or actions. This isn't good. By doing this, it robs the individual of basic (in the West) humanitarian rights. I think (and I believe most would agree), that this is not a good thing.
The problem is that this leads to the sort of group-think that Chinese have been historically more likely to follow than Europeans and especially Americans. (This is not to say that Europeans and Americans do not do this. It's just that less of them tend to.)
There are other problems as well with the lack of emphasis placed on the individual. Too much group think leads to a loss of individuality. Without a degree of individuality, Chinese tend to do dumb things. Like the Cultural Revolution or the Great Leap Forward. Or building a massive dam across the Yangtze that already has many cracks in it. (Good bye Nanjing and Shanghai? I hope not.) Or to allowing Japanese to line you up and begin cutting off heads.
I counted athiesm as a religion. (Though it's really not, it's more of an offshoot of science, but we don't need to get into that, as I think we're probably in agreement again.) Regardless, most Chinese are less religious than their Western Counterparts. Really, there is less conviction in their worship. If you want to do a little personal test, think of the amount of Western Buddhists you know, and the amount of Chinese Buddhists. Now which have you seen eat meat? (My Chinese fiance pointed that one out to me.)
I don't dismiss the Chinese people. Nor should others dismiss Western. That is the kind of thinking that leads to things like Nanjing, Palestinian Occupation and September 11. But, the Chinese culture is, well, kind of dangerous. Group think leads to the sort of attacks I just mentioned. In this case (the root), a group of PRC generals who think that the ROC might change its name to Taiwan and decide to nuke it.
I won't retract my accusation of Chinese culture teaching bullying and cowardice. First, this is because I quote that straight from Bo Yang. But, it is true. The same thing used to happen in Western armies (still does, but to a lesser extent). That is, with the removal of individual rights, those in power tend to take control. In order to avoid wrath of superiors (bullying), it's best to back down (cowardice). Do this enough, and it becomes ingrained, as in Chinese culture. This leads to straification and a whole mess of other bad things.
But perhaps this problem wi
Hoist Number One and Number Six.
I wish, China was really so weak militarily. And you may well be right -- I just don't know.
But your response has only limited relevance -- the size of their army (and the amount of weaponry pointed at Taiwan in particular) is the sign of how threatening they are -- even if, come actual shooting, the threat turns out to be hollow.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
For one, I'm sure, you did not ask. Noone did. Such poll would be rather biased too, you know, because who really disliked Saddam's rule were routinely killed.
Imagine a driver loosing control of her/his car. The car spins and hits the guardrail, which badly injures everyone inside, but prevents it from going onto the other side of the road, which would not only have killed everyone inside, but also injured/killed others in head-on collision(s).
Will the occupants of the unfortunate car -- and some other witnesses -- blame the guardrail? You bet some will! They will also be quick to point out, that the car's suspension was made by a subsidiary of the same company, which made the railing. And yet despite all the compassion I may have for their sufferings, I can not blame the railing -- it did the right thing, prevening more injuries and destruction.
As Economist put it recently, after 12 years of wrangling it was right to call Saddam's bluff, even if bluff is all it turned out to be.
Then "the world" is stupid and/or ignorant. The US has maintained this policy since the WWII. As long as "the world" was scared of the Soviets, nobody minded (except for the Warsaw Pact). Now, that the US is, actually, considering a reduction of its military capabilities to winning one while merely sustaining another major campaign (as opposite from winning both, as you describe) you come out and claim we are agressive... If it was not for our "agression" you'd likely be speaking Russian by now and had to get in line in the dairy store at 6 in the morning to get milk.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
The point being that there's nothing inevitable about Taiwan rejoining China, and the PRC leadership's "historical claims" to the island are bullshit. If they want to back up their bullshit with a war, as it stands now they'll lose, even without US involvement.
Luke, help me take this mask off
stargoat quoth:
"chinese culture is admirably focused off the individual, but it does so in an incorrect manner, which leads to poor results. i believe that you and i would both agree with it is an individual actions that deservce notice or emphasis."
you're correct in that we do agree, but as products of the one culture and not the other, i think it's a tad silly to extrapoliate meaning out of this particular convergence of opinion.
in both western and eastern cultures, i think hierarchies and groups play equally significant, if different, roles WRT the individual. however,
"the problem is that this leads to the sort of group-think that chinese have been historically more likely to follow than europeans and especially americans."
um...i'm sorry, perhaps this is simply my ignorance WRT what's going on in chinese culture and history, but what about mccarthy's red scare in the 50s, domino theory in the majority of the cold war, the preponderance of those accursed and godawfully ugly PT cruisers--oops, wrong rant topic--the current US tendency to excuse all government encroachments on civil liberties so long as it supports this nebulous "war on terrorism" which, as a war against an idea, is inherently doomed to failure...i won't go on, but i think that more or less gets the idea across.
now, what i was really challenging was in this block:
"i won't retract my accusation of chinese culture teaching bullying and cowardice. first, this is because i quote that straight from bo yang. but, it is true. the same thing used to happen in western armies (still does, but to a lesser extent). that is, with the removal of individual rights, those in power tend to take control. in order to avoid wrath of superiors (bullying), it's best to back down (cowardice). do this enough, and it becomes ingrained, as in chinese culture. this leads to stratification and a whole mess of other bad things."
clearly, you've studied chinese history and culture. i have not. you presumably have a basis from which you formed this conclusion. i have no illusions that in the course of 5000 years, humanity's great ignominies and triumphs would shine any any more or less brightly than in any other group's history of similar scope.
however, can you please give me an example or 2 of when this occurs/occurred in chinese history and then some evidence that this pattern repeated itself through the ensuing 5k years? perhaps i'm wrong: this could be and i always entertain that possibility. but on the off-chance you're in error, i think it's worth examining the facts of the matter.
ed