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China Joins EU in Galileo Satellite Venture
CHaN_316 writes "Yahoo has posted a story that says China to Participate in Galileo Satellite Program. 'The agreement provides for cooperation in satellite navigation, technology, industrial manufacturing, market development, frequency and certification'. This is definitely a good boost to the satellite program since it injects fresh cash into the project. There are probably strategic reasons for joining this network since it's an alternative to the American controlled GPS system. Here's more information about Galileo." China is also moving quickly toward getting a man in space.
China says it has high hopes for its Garireo joint-venture.
You only THINK it is. In reallity the Galileo project is an advanced Anti-anti sat project aimed at you antsat weapons. :)
We win
Slashdot Sig. version 0.1alpha. Use at your own risk.
Galileo is to plumet into Jupiters atmosphere on Sunday!
Great, now there will be cheap plastic satellites with "Made in China" stamped on them falling into my backyard every other day.
Story also on BBC NEWS- China will cough up 259 mega-dollars towards the costs. The Pentagon are not too happy about it, but it does give the EU a way to do important things like landing planes, without worrying that someone else could throw the switch.
"You lied to me! There is a Swansea!"
Why must nations always get involved and turn space exploration into an Us vs. Them contest?
I wish we could all just work together, share ideas (much in the same manner that Linux engineers share programming code), and unite to accomplish one common goal, such as a manned mission to Mars.
This would lower taxes, make a Mars mission occur much sooner, and encourage a gentle more loving dialogue between the mainstream nations and rogue nations.
We owe it to science to drop our national flags in the name of progress. Please reply with, a) the country you currently reside in and b) whether you think your country would work with the United States in a joint space mission and c) (optional) if possible, state your country's current economic spending on space missions.
Thank you! This should make for interesting data.
Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate. Ex-O'Reilly/MIT employee, now a full-time Google employee.
i like reading news where china is collaborating with the west, rather than taking pains to block it out (eg great firewall of china)
:)
granted, this is a pretty high level program but the idea of it is good.
or maybe china is gearing up for a space coup to take over the world and we're all doomed. i'll need to think about the significance of this one
I can't make up my mind. On one hand, it's just stupid for humanity as a race to have two competing satellite based positioning systems, when one can be shared and the resources used for the other could be used for, say, more research or a new launch system.
Oh the other hand, it's this competition that usually drives progress. So far, the one for all and all for one model (soviets) seems to have failed while the super-capitalistic model (america) seems to be winning, but looking back 1000 years from now, is this the model that will perpetuate our presence in the universe?
There are two kinds of people in the world: Those with good memory.
Any time I've seen Galileo mentioned in the US media, it's been treated as some sort of anti-US measure; it isn't.
Well, it isn't totally an anti-US measure. We just don't like the idea of a system on which our lives increasingly depend being under the control of a foreign military. Doesn't really matter who that military is; any system where you can find yourself suddenly lost at the whim of some general half a world away is a system to be avoided. And as the Iraq war is showing, the US is increasingly cagey (cagy? How do you spell that damn word?) about others using its system in time of war. And that time of war looks like it's going to extend indefinitely.
<anti-US bit>
Of course, the advent of Chinese involvement is, I hope a sign of things to come. Kyoto and others have shown that disaster doesn't necessarily follow when the US says 'no', and that the best attitude the world can have may well be "fuck 'em, and carry on regardless".
I'd love to see one big happy world, but in its absence I'm reasonably satisfied with one big, happy world-except-America.
</anti-US>
let the flames begin...
Remember that the 60's "SPACE RACE" (it was called that for a reason) was sparked by US-Soviet competition.
Also observe that innovation in space exploration has been pretty much nil since, say, Apollo-Soyuz.
That they'll be able to use this in Wartime? If the US Govt is willing to alter GPS to their whims, whats to stop the air force from lofting a few ASAT missiles to accomplish the same goal? Taking away the enemies ability to navigate would be priceless.
Reuters reports that a huge queue of Chinese wannabe astronauts are forming following rumours that in outer space, nobody can watch you surf.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
Leave india out of this. India just plans to send a probe to the moon.
Sounds like what experts said 45 years ago when they were rubbishing the idea that the USSR could put anything into space.
Sounds like what I understand all the generals were saying when Mig15s started shooting down our planes in Korea!
Just because you & I have a low opinion about the social order of a society, it doesn't mean that there are not a number of well funded clever people there...
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
...when you're cooperating with the enemy.
I mean, China's interests are not the world's interests. History folks: read it.
I don't know how to say this withought sounding paranoid, but just because you have a science co-op doesn't mean everyone is interested in the same thing. China is more than gung ho about this project because EVERY space launch technology is dual-use for military application. I think it is a little cavalier (that's "dangerous" for you folks in high school) to do anything that puts more power in the hands of anti-freedom communists. Look at what they are doing to democratic Taiwan if you want to see what they would do to Europe or the U.S.A. if they had the ability.
You're talking about a nation that has a reverse-firewall on the entire CONTINENT... to keep people from being "infected" by rogue ideas like ownership, equality, and government existing through the sanction of the governed. You're talking about a nation that controls the news media with an iron fist to keep people from knowing when bad things happen as a result of communism. China is the closest thing to 1984 on the planet right now. Do we really want to share technology with them?
How is this an arms race started by the Europeans?
Didn't the US have GPS up first?
The US doesn't have to develop jamming equipment against Galileo.
I find it interesting that in American English, "ally" apparantly means "lackey", or perhaps "bitch". As in "What?! Our supposed allies dare to question us? What arrogance!"
Joke all you want about "Garireo", it looks like we'll need to speak French and read Chinese to travel to the Mars colony - how's your accent? Too bad we'll be working off our $10T debt by policing the mess down here with our 21C Army of One.
--
make install -not war
From http://www-cgsc.army.mil/milrev/English/MarApr01/a dams.asp
GPS Signals Jammed During Tank Trials
Lieutenant Colonel Lester W. Grau, US Army, Retired
Based on 6 August 2000 reports in The Sunday Times of London, Agence France-Presse and the 25 September 2000 Elevtheros Tipos, Athens
The highly accurate Global Positioning System (GPS) supports modern ground forces as they move and shoot. Maps and compasses stay in cases as digitized forces quickly use GPS to determine their location and the enemy's. Although map-reading skills atrophy, few worry that GPS may suddenly provide erroneous information or cease working. Still, US Army equipment has already faced attacks on GPS functions--by allies.
In August 2000 the Greek government sponsored a tank competition at Litokhoro to determine the Greek army's next tank--a deal worth $1.4 billion for 250 tanks. Competitors included the British Challenger 2E, the US M1A1 Abrams, the German Leopard 2A5 and the French Leclerc. During the trials, the British and US tanks had navigation problems despite using multiple GPS satellites to determine their positions precisely. After the embarrassing performance, officials discovered that the GPS satellites were being jammed--by a French security agency. Less than a foot high, the jammers transmitted stronger signals than satellites on the same frequency. The jammers were reportedly hidden on the firing range and remotely activated as US and British tanks were tested.
Greek defense officials found the jamming episode rather amusing and discounted the associated technical problems. The threat remains: if an ally can create such havoc during a test, what effect could hostile GPS jamming have during combat?
BTW...anyone know what the state of our anti-sat weaponry capabilities are lately?
they're built, but they don't work.
( i wish i knew a link for this...but, the Military in the US is having this problem -- paid millions of dollars for technology that doesnt work -- just to pad a bunch of higher ups pockets...)
We're like rats, in some experiment! -- George Costanza
I have worked on the Galileo project on a technical level and it really does need some new impetus, and some new capital injection, ESA is being quite slow at coming up with the funding at the correct time (even though its been signed off at a political level). It truely is a project of massive scale, and involves alot of interfacing between European space companies.
Another benefit of this is there isn't as big a rush to launch the first testbed satellite that was going to block/reserve the frequency blocks that Galileo is going to use for fear the Chinese will get their first.
I wonder how the US views this move, considering they are already unhappy with the Galileo implications in the first place. Especially with Chinas ICBM ambitions.
How is this an arms race started by the Europeans? Didn't the US have GPS up first?
;)
Becuase it's not a race if only one person is in it
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
Do you think the new system will not be similarly at the mercy of some general's fiat? Only that the general will perhaps be Chinese (regardless of how tasty his chicken may be)?
The question is, who would you rather be at the mercy of? The US or China? Think hard.
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
And if the countries we 'rain cruise missles down on' would stop supporting people who think it is ok to kill bus loads of women/kids then, perhaps, we would not bomb them.
But it's not an arms race until you start treating it as military technology. Galileo is mostly geared for civilian use. If the US starts comming up with technology to jam it, then it's the US which is turning it into an arms race.
And if the countries that like to 'rain cruise missiles down on' other countries ceased doing that, maybe those who think it is ok to 'kill bus loads of women/kids' of the bomb-throwing country would stop thinking that way.
I agree with you in that nobody should wait around for the U.S. to stamp their approval on their lives. By all means proceed with the persuit of excellence.
/in any way/ you have to understand why American's react as they do. Communism strips people of their dignity and freedom and erodes any concept of human rights. It is fundamentally war-oriented and diametrically opposed to the existance of opposing schools of thought: I.E. democracy. It isn't a "big happy world," either so spare us the hubris. There are a lot of people who's lives are literally broken by bloody tyrants in places like Communist China, Africa, and the middle-east. People said of those in Iraq, "They're not good enough for democracy, they're not advanced enough." That's racism, folks... every human spirit years to be free. It is very important to note that no governmental decision should be made in a vacuum outside the framework of interest and information in the rest of the world. China doesn't need any help producing long-range ballistic missile technology... which is just a whisker away from any aerospace research that might be shared to them.
... the "goodness of America" is much greater, FAR out of proportion to any of its mistakes.
When people do anything to support communism
I am a little shocked by your statement: "reasonably satisfied with one big, happy world-except-America."
Take the united states out of the world, and imagine the reprocussions. Look at all the R&D contributions we have made to the global quality of life over the last 100 years. Look who spilled their blood to spare everyone from Japanese and German occupation. Who is sending and supplying soldiers to guard the wall between terrorists and free people everywhere? Who just spend $10,000,000,000 on HIV/AIDS in Africa? Not the EU.
People get overobsessed with "the sins of America," even if they don't know any of them, but let me tell you
As it is now EU is not capable to begin any serious wars. Not from military capability prospective - such decision would be politically impossible in EU. China is also not that stupid to through nuclear warheads here and there - they realize that that would be the end for all of us.
The problem is that US administration is driven by corporations, currently by those who is benefiting from any military race. And there is no way to stop them.
Less is more !
The only reason Taiwan doesn't have a seat on the UN is because they claim to be the "true" government of the Chinese people. As a government in exile, they get nothing. If they declared themselves a sovereign nation separate from China, they would have their seat in a day. (Barring, of course, invasion from the PRC, which is entirely possible)
If those countries and "innocents" stopped supporting people who send Airliners into OUR skyscrapers, maybe we would stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hmm the parent post feels like a carfty toll to me, but oh well, it's been modded as interesting...
Software engineers should know better than anybody that redundancy, competition, is good. Aren't the open source some of the most vocal when it comes to Microsoft's monopoly?
Right now, the US has a monopoly on GPS. Good for USA, bad for the rest of the world. Having a second GPS system not only creates competition, but prevents possible disasters if the American GPS is disabled, say with a virus.
Same goes with missions to Mars, Space Stations, reusable spacecrafts, etc. You're right that we should share data, but we should also work in parallel to devise systems and missions that are different enough that a single flaw doesn't turn the entire program into a standstill.
Unfortunately, right now, space-related projects are so big they can only be sponsored by nations (or groups of nations), and that's why flags are in them.
And I find it interesting that you advocate dropping flags, yet you say "whether you think your country would work with the United States in a joint space mission" [emphasis mine]. Shouldn't you be saying something like "whether you think people from all over the world would work in a joint space mission?"
The Russians, IIRC, were working on a GPS alternative as well, called GLONASS. What's the status of that.
There's 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Why would the US develop jamming technology for it? We've done enough to piss off the rest of the world, and somehow still have a few friends. We'd lose GB, Spain, and Germany on that one.
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
Europe is going to have to make a decision which side it's on. They can't continue to say yes to all the benefits that 50+ years of good relations has given BOTH sides and then turn around and covertly attempt to undermine everything the US does. Europe faces NO threat from ever being attack by the US. The only agenda the US has is a world were all countries have some form of democratically elected government and a homegrown form of capitalism. How is that not in everyone's benefit? Ever hear of comparative advantage? That's what's made the US the economic power that it is. Europe hasn't had enough to do in these last 50 years. They've got themselves stuck in this ridiculous utopian view of the world and have ignored some very real threats.
Now... Not to get completely off topic... Any alternative to GPS is a major threat to the US. If you can't see that you are blind. If Iraq had access to something like this they could have hit every US base in Kuwait last March. Who knows what could happen in some other future war. With GPS you can literally turn off the treat. Why else do you think China would be keen to join something like this? If American troops are endanged I fully support the US military building a counter measure to either jam or shoot down something like this.
I don't think they should.
But his thread started partially in response to someone who claimed that the US would have to develop such jamming technologies and that such a move would be a response to an arms race which the EU and/or China started.
I was arguing against this.
Read yesterday's news: "Bush denies connections between 9/11 and Iraq."
How do you define 'support'? It's probably fair to say that there are at least 300 million Muslims you were quite happy about the 9/11 attachs. You could say that they were morally supporting the real terrorists. Maybe we should just kill them all?
Oh yeah, that's right. I wish I could say I've slept since then... instead I'll say I've written code since then. And I'm low on caffeine.
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
Since when? I think this whole article was only posted about an hour ago.
It sounds like you're suffering from CSS (Coding Stress Syndrome). That's when you've spent so much time coding instead of sleeping that you start talking to your friends and wondering why they won't compile.
A repeat of an earlier post (sorry about the dupe, but this article may be of interest.
I didn't want to politicize the discussion beyond the fact that it is politically significant when people deal technology to China.
Your comment doesn't make sense. I have to imagine that is why you posted anonymously. You forget the Marshall plan where we spent (in today's dollars) hundreds of billions of dollars rebuilding Europe. That's right, the U.S.A. spent ALL that money over there helping to get things straight after WW2.
Everything worth doing takes time and everything that is valuable is worth fighting for. Even more importantly, it is worth LIVING for. I would die for freedom. For my own freedom, and for yours.
China is getting involved in the Galileo project? What lucky timing: On Sunday, September 21, NASA's Galileo spacecraft will end 14 years of exploration in spectacular fashion: by crashing into Jupiter.
Can we get them to have the check sent by overnight mail, or would a wire transfer be easier at this late stage?
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
Er.. We already lost Germany. I think Fiji still likes us though.
an ill wind that blows no good
You cannot control a man's money withought controlling every other aspect of his life. Communism is blatantly political. It ceases to be an economic phenomenon when it diverges from being subordinate to "the market" and starts trying to dictate to the market what the market will be.
/are/ elevated above the fray and supported to excess and others are ignored. At the /very least/ in Capitalism it is YOUR choice where you want to fit in and settle. But it is better because in Capitalism the economy never stops growing. Communism takes reality and reduces it to a zero-sum game where instead of reaching into the ground and working to pull out something of BRAND NEW value to the world (economic growth), people are forced to redistribute a common set of wealth. No wonder things fall into decay in those places. It is not sustainable.
The market is the free will of everyone to choose to value one thing over another. It is a fact that all value is personal. This does not mean all "moral value" is unique to the individual, it means all economic (the demand for and method of acquisition of scarce resources) worth is determined by the wants of each individual person independant of others. This fact of existence is diametrically opposed to the premise of Communism.
Communism is political in the enforcement of its irrational ideals, because people do not naturally fall into communist practices - they instinctively resist them. It is not greed that resists Communism: it is good productive self-interest and enlightened self-interest working itself out. Enlightened self-interest is voluntarily helping others because it makes you happy and your personal life ultimately better. Giving a gift to your girlfriend, buying food for a widow, sending AIDS money to Africa, etc. People love giving gifts but they hate getting robbed even if the theif has noble plans for the money. Why should the thief take credit for the charity?
It is a NiceThought(tm) for everyone to have what they need but it always comes down to this: Who will guarantee your life? If someone else is shouldered with the responsibility of guaranteeing your life, their ass is hanging out in the wind. Someone always gets left out in Communism because a few people
The US is pathetic. Using hexadecimal all the way through, a much better missle could be created by a smaller team. Decimal is dragging everything down.
-Libertarian secular transhumanist
I like that.. CSS. Can I use that without getting dragged into court?
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
As opposed to the current European leftist definition of 'empire' - "We love American movies and culture so much we can't get enough of it"?
Or another European leftist definition: 'stability' - "We love bloodthirsty, murderous, dictators, as long as TotalFinaElf gets it's share of the oil money."
The irony of the Left bitching about the US overthrowing Saddam is incredible, given the last few decades of them bitching about us supporting evil, murderous, third world dictators. If anyone else had done this, it would be a good thing, but if the US does it, we must be wrong.
Excuse me while I go puke...
- Necron69
It only sends man in space, no women! The space race is over pal, and there is no point to support such macho attitude anyway. Do we want the tragedy of the NASA female astronauts that were supposes to go to the Moon in 1960s but never get off the ground, happened to EVERY COUNTRY that gets its first space programme?!?!
Hey I am cool with the EU crowd of western demrocies having their own GPS. Its in there best instreast not to have to use the American system. But how can you justfily giving an agressive, imperial power like china military access to such a system? Anybody remember Tibet? Or the proping up of North Koria? China is not a nice little democrcy, its a evil power hungrey gready monster of a nation. Helping the facist leaders of china does not help anyone.
Derek
Yes. I think you should go puke.
You seem to have eaten something nasty which is making you a bit incoherent. Something about elves, empires, and leftists. But I'm not really sure what you're talking about.
Feel free.
As far as I know, parody is still a legitimate exception to copyright law.
Who gave this a +4 rating? See you in meta-mod.
Germany still mostly likes the US. They currently have the largest non US military contingent in Afghanistan.
And they're still letting the US keep their bases in Germany.
Is also attacking a nation-state like Iraq before they get thier shit togeather enough to bother a Kuwait or an Israel again.
Prevention didn't fly for the Bush Administration as an excuse for the war in many circles.
Galileo is probably going to turn into a club against the will of the US. This is gonna be funny - i just cant wait to see blairs face when he has to choose sides ;)
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Probably true, but it does not matter.
As another Slashdot poster pointed out, the Galileo system can be destroyed or decapacitated at will by the US military. Since the US military is not an 'aggressive, imperial power', they will stop the 'aggressive, imperial power', China, I suppose, from doing anything evil.
In any case, I do not see what is the big deal about things like Galileo or some third world country talking (yes, just talking) about sending probes to Moon.
What is alarming about it? I still don't understand.
The US has done everything they are talking about. The US is in fact lightyears ahead of them all in terms of technology, money and power. So what is the big deal.
There is absolutely nothing to worry about.
GrimReality
2003-09-19 21:21:42 UTC (2003-09-19 17:21:42 EDT)
Dear Sir,
I commend you on your First Post. Only a true master would be willing to put his life on the line when attempting a first post.
What a bunch of morons. As usual, people go off blabbering about things that they know nothing about. China already has a military space network similar to GPS except it is limited to two satellites and regional use. There is no reason why China can't blast off more satellites on its own for military purposes, except they do not wish to attack and dominate other countries like some other nations. The Galileo project is significant in other ways, not militarily.
This comment extends to the general racist comments posted on Slashdot about how [insert the most degrading descriptions possible] China/Chinese are. Keep on believing CNN + Hollywood about how evil China is. Keep on pretending that you care more about human rights and freedoms, especially for the people that you grossly violated in the past, instead of your own interests. Keep on thinking that the average Chinese appreciate being demonized and lectured to. Good job, continue your mental masturbation about your illusion of moral superiority. To all the racists out there, fuck off and die!
Perhaps you should do some research, rather than repeat bland and uninformative assertions.
t .h tm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/asa
http://www.fas.org
Why needlessly duplicate an (expensive) system that has already been built by your ally, unless you're planning on not being much of an ally any longer? The US has never shut down the civilian GPS signal, not during either of the Iraq wars, or the one in Afghanistan. The European countries involved in this project have been very insistent that Galileo is purely "civilian", though I don't think China sees it that way. They've also been considering using similar frequencies as GPS, making it difficult for the US to jam one without jamming the other.
BTW, Galileo won't offer anything over the US GPS system. Upgrades to GPS have been in the works at least as long (if not longer) than Galileo has.
Well, of course, the reason he said that is because France has been treating the US in a simliar fashon.
We just don't like the idea of a system on which our lives increasingly depend being under the control of a foreign military.
Ummm, I hate to point this out, but do you mean as system, Europe? For the last 50 years, free Europe has bairly defended itself, and has enjoyed living under the American shield while the US paid the cost. During this time, Europe was more than glad to have their system controlled by some "foriegn general," than do it themselves. Only when the danger is dimmished has it become so paramount for the continent to be free of all the tyrranical American ideas of collective defense and cooperation. It seems to me that modern Europeans have a strange need express independance by defying and contridicting the US at every turn. I find this to be cynnical at best and childish at worst. But, judging by these forums, I guess it is just me.
-Iowa
BTW Did you know that the as of about a month ago, the Swedish military does not work on weekends?
BTW, I know that it may be argued that each country was small, and could not match the resources of the US, so cold war defense had to be from the United States. Yet, somehow, with the danger past, the people of Europe have figured out that if you sum the GDP and populations of western Europe, it is greater than the United States. Imagine that.
"He who laughs last, didn't get the joke."-Cap
Wow. So I read the title of the article as "China Joins EU."
Forget RTFA, I should RTFH (headline)
Eric
"Brevity is the soul of wit." -Polonius, Hamlet.
Mr Geeklawyer, you could write a book, but it would be triped up fiction at best. I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next person, but a little reality check for you.
The difference between the United States and other countries like, oh, I don't know, say The United Kingdom, France, or even Roam, is that when we had a chance to conquer the world, we didn't. I know this is hard to wrap your head around, since it is not what obviously you, or your nation would have (had) done in a similar situation. I know, you are yelling,"IT AIN'T SO! THE US WAS NEVER IN THAT POSITION. I MEAN, IF YOU TRULY COULDA, YOU WOULDA JUST LIKE US!" Let me remind you of a little history. I know, I am just an American, and what do we know of History, especially to smart educated Euros like yourself, but bare with me. In 1945, we (that being the US) invented this thingy called a NUCLEAR BOMB. As far as weapons go, it was well, the bomb. In fact, it was so much so, that people often referred to it as, THE BOMB. The bomb was awesome, able to level large cities faster than a rioting crowd after a British soccer match. In fact, the bomb was soooo very devestating that nothing could stop it and to this day, the mere threat of having one dropped on your !## can bring a country to its knees quaking in fear. And that is with the possibility that they or one of their allies could dump one back at you! Now, recall with your more historically astute Euro mind that no one else had one of these until the Soviet Union in 1949. That is, ummm, let me see, American's are bad a math too I am told, hold on, oh yeah, 5 WHOLE YEARS WE HAD ONE AND NO ONE ELSE DID. Oh, I know they took a bit of time to make, but, say we dumped a few on the old USSR, do you think they would have had time to develop one in 1949? No, bing, bing, right answer. Let me see who else could have stopped the US. War torn, I had just spent 5 years and three Empires of money and resources trying to kill my Europe? Ummmm, no people, no cash, no will. BEEEEP wrong answer. How about the ever lovable populous Asian Empires such as China. Well, this little old country called Japan had just put the hurt on them, and they were recovering. And, well, they didn't even have THE BOMB. So, nope. Ok, I could find a few other example, but Americans are also bad at geography, and you get the point. We could have done it. We had the power to do it. We stepped up to the ledge of our darker side, and guess what? We did not do it. Why? Because it is not the American way. This may be hard for a people to imagine who spent so many years making sure the sun never set on their zones of oppression, but Americans really don't think about empire. We don't dream of owning everything and telling everyone what to do in all facets of their lives. If we did, we could have it and would do it. Seriously. I know it is fun to bitch about American Empire and opression, and it makes good literature, but your post is nothing more than just that. So, weave your webs, and jump at your shadows. For all your what if's and possibilities, at the end of the day, we had our test and passed. Sorry you didn't.
"He who laughs last, didn't get the joke."-Cap
I posted a long time ago (before the Iraq war brought it to a point) that I think that the EU and the US are diverging and drifting further and further from one another. I've read enough political discussion forums to note that the level of animosity between the rest of the world and the US is definitely high, and rising.
I know that every time when a slashdot article is posted on some European, Chinese or Indian project of technical prowess, that quite a number of highly racist, xenophobic posts will be made, a number of people will pound their fists on the table as to why the USA system is superior and that the US military could take 'em all on and win.
And make no mistake, the US military could definitely beat any other military on earth in a conventional war. There are no nations with the American ability to project force all around the globe. The US economy is the key to the world's economy as is evidenced that other economies reel when the US economy takes a hit, and the US certainly does its best to strong arm other nations into accepting US economic terms, and is often successful.
But if there is one big mistake that the USA makes, it is in thinking that the rest of the world is incapable of learning from past failures. The EU wouldn't be there if Europe were incapable of learning from its own past failures. It's inefficient and clumsy but it is the best way for Europe to avoid going to war with itself again, and for European nations to get stronger economically.
Likewise, many countries are very wary of an America that acts alone and starts large unilateral wars for very dodgy reasons. Many countries are beginning to see that the USA is willing to use combiinations of military force and economic power to achieve its goals. These are the reaons that the EU has finally started to act on the idea of a European defense force. These are the reasons that the Euro is becoming popular tender in international commerce. These are the reasons that the Gallileo system is being built to avoid the loss of the GPS system in times of crisis.These are the reasons that China is slowly but surely edging into space, modernising its army and plowing money into indigenous IT.
All these things are happening because all those countries are worried about being dominated by the US in times of crisis.
And all this talk about nuking them (all those horrid countries who would dare to oppose the US) is plain rubbish. The US could certainly "win" a nuclear war, in that it has more missiles than anyone else, but at least some missiles from any opponent would hit the USA, and I don't know about you, but living in a world after a major nuclear war is not something I like to think about.
China and the EU have decided to come up with a new internet. They have come to the agreement that they should not rely on US military technology as the internet once was.
Have you ever been to a turkish prison?
your comments show your ignorance about history.
Carter and Brzezinski provoked USSR into going into Afghanistan by suppling mujahedins A HALF YEAR BEFORE the russian intervention.
France was at war with Germany before they attacked them in 1940. There was no trust.
SovietRussia and Germany had The Molotow-Ribbentrop Pact which declared how they would divide Poland (my country) between themselves. The Nazis attacked on the 1 September 1939. SR invaded on September 17th after Hitlers explicit request. So on this they very much trusted each other for good reasons.
Please notice, that I do not say those attacks were something good. But all three of your statements are fundamentally flawed. Please don't rewrite history any more.
BTW: the French deserve to be called "surrender monkeys" precisely because of september 1939. we were their allies in 1939, and they did nothing to help. What about opening a western front , you cowards?
Fight Frist Psoting!
Browse Slashdot with 'Newest First'!
The reference on China is space is wrong...
October 10 marks the overthrow of the Manchurians and return of Chinese sovereignty to the Chinese, and the establishment of the Chinese Republic out of the Manchu puppet Chinese Empire. This is why this is the only national holiday shared by mainland, People's Republic of China, and Tawain, Republic of China (former fiefdom of the KMT, who were winners of the Republican Revolution, losers of the Communist Revolution, uninvolved in the Cultural Revolution, and losers in recent Tawainese elections)
IIRC, it's been reported that China will place a navigation network in space by itself, consisting of 4 GEO sats...
I remember the paranoid warmongering talk out of US thinktanks at the time it was in the news.
Ofcourse if it had happened it would have been the fourth network (GPS, Galileo, and the Russian GLOSNASS).
But then the US thinktanks and US government are already mounting full court pressure to end Galileo as it is a threat to US monopoly on worldwide satnav. And a threat, because the US military can't just degrade the signal at will. I remember seeing analyses from around the time of the Galileo announcement about US sat killers being targetted fulltime for the network, because Europe is an enemy not to be trusted with satellite navigation systems.
So this must really get the goat of the US miltary thinktanks... two potential enemies, one an old one (China), another a not very nice friend (Europe) collaborating on a project that threatens national security.
> So, in my mind, the arguement that the EU is developing this for prevention and the attack on
> Iraq for prevention are equally justified.
>
> There is a fine difference...
Yes, that "fine difference" involves _killing people_.
Pre-emptively building a system to increase your warfighting capability is like buying a gun for self-defense - if somebody else forces violence on you, you're better prepared.
Pre-emptively invading a country is like shooting someone to make sure they don't commit a crime - you are the one forcing violence.
The former is something honest citizens do. The latter is something thugs and mafioso do. Which would you prefer your government act like?
only would a Jackass American make such a bold statement, with such bullshit links.
The problem with GPS is that it is controlled by a single entity, the US government. Your argument is that one system is enough. That's like saying one OS is enough, the rest are just wasting time/money.
It comes down to control. The reason Galileo is going to be successful is that no one entity controls it, much like Linux. What that means is that the US government can no longer pull the plug on critical worldwide navigation systems in support of its latest occupation/liberation.
Lets face it, you don't need to rely on GPS to build a highly accurate missile in this day and age, and whilst the US armed forces may need GPS to navigate in the desert etc, I can guarantee you the locals don't need it to know where they are. It's their backyard, remember?
No, the US's problem is that they like to be in charge, so any competing technology that threatens to disrupt that notion has to be fought as being un-American and a "terrorist" enabler.
Newsflash America - the rest of the world is wising up to your control fetish, thanks to better global communication, and they are taking steps to ensure that in the future, you will not be able to single-handedly control critical global infrastructure the way you have in the past.
Quizo69
Visceral Psyche Films
Italy is supposed to be part of "New Europe".
> The only agenda the US has is a world were all countries
> have some form of democratically elected government
> and a homegrown form of capitalism.
Thank you, this is just the funniest claim I read on slashdot this year.
And all the dictators the US installed and all the democratically elected presidents the US helped to bring down are just beacons of democracy and freedom to be erected in every country; by the leader of the axis of ignorance and hypocrisy.
Actually the US only does what is in its own regime's very shortsighted interest. "America first". And if fscking you badly is in their interest, they will happily fsck you.
k2r
a bunch of 3rd world nutters knocked out a couple of skyscrapers and america pissed itself. nuking california and new york would be a catastrophe for the debt-laden united states financial systems, let alone the loss of life.
anyway, this is all ridiculously childish. the eu and the us are supposed to be allies. have none of you asked yourself why this vital alliance is under such strain you can even imagine galileo is some kind of plot against the us? are you all going mad or something? you can thank your inept president for this mess.
Please, don't fool yourself into thinking YOUR country is innocent.