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Jocks v. Nerds: Detecting Gene-Dopers
kevinvee writes "The World Anti-Doping Agency will soon put into place gene doping tests to detect athletes using gene therapy. Perhaps the most important part to recognize is that Congress delegates have said that gene doping is a 'clear and present danger.' Professor Geoff Goldspink mentions this of gene therapy: 'We can put genes into mice and create Arnold Schwarzenegger mice.' So, be sure to watch next year's elections for furry white mice."
~~~
Gene-Dopers... Is that a new drag addiction? ;)
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Does this mean that instead of running around the maze, they suddenly start running for governor?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
AAAAERRRRrrrrrrrrrgggggghghhghghghghghghghg hghghghghghghghg
what were you saying about mice and men?
"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." - Rahm Emanuel
Vote Algernon in 2004!
Moo
...if you weren't so busy obediently paying your $699 SCO liscensing fee, you wouldn't have achieved such failure. --- Mod up all AC's.
Wondered how long it would be before Ahnold jokes entered the /. news headlines. I can already see his campaign at the next election... you KNOW its gonna have "I'll be bock" somewhere in it.
Arnold is all too happy to inject his genes the old fashion way.
So, be sure to watch next year's elections for furry white mice.
So, are you saying the incumbent will be getting a little NR2B gene therapy? (For those Slashdotters who are not neuroscientists, NR2B keeps the NMDA receptor in nervous tissues from desensitizing, apparently making learning in mice easier).
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a 25% increase in muscle mass in 2 weeks
So, I can go from an 80 pound weakling to a 100 pound beefcake in the time it takes me to compile Gentoo on my P2-300?
Those jocks from highschool are going to be sorry they shoved me in my locker...
everyday...
twice.
"We can put genes into mice and create Arnold Schwarzenegger mice."
I thought Arnold Schwarzenegger mice had metal endoskeletons too? Mice with metal endoskeletons would be so much cooler...
And thus, the hunt for the mutants has begun.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
>> We can put genes into mice and create Arnold
>> Schwarzenegger (news - web sites) mice. If it can be >> done on mice it can be done on humans," said
>> Goldspink.
Almost there, huh. The list of things that are almost there (dirt cheap solar cells, 64-bit Windows operating systems, Segways replacing all other forms of personal transport, television sets that you unroll and hang on your wall, the RIAA actually winning a case in court) is endless -- and is likely to remain that way since the axiom that the first 90% of the work takes 90% of the time and effort, and the remaining 10% takes the other 90% continues to hold undisputed sway.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
If there was a performance-enhancing chemical that was completely safe, I say it is fair, because its use does not involve serious risk. That said, I think the IOC doesn't see it that way.
So my question is, is gene therapy dangerous? If it is, then it probably should be banned. But if not, then why not allow it? At some point, doesn't it seem kind of arbitrary which things are allowed and which are not?
Brain: Pinky, are you thinking what I'm thinking?
Pinky: I think so, Brain, but how are we going to feed the elephant? ZORT!
--
# Canmephians for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.net";
Why should I not be able to wear the pants I chose?
--- You know it's bad when
bash-2.05a$ fortune
bash: fortune: command not found
I'm sorry, but I think the probability of safe gene-doping existing is still well-within the realm of science fiction. And even if it existed, so what? Does that mean that if I dope with Michael Johnson's genes and go into a meet against Michael Johnson, that I will have an advantage? Would johnson have to quit the meet if they deem that his natural genes are better than the other athletes? And some gene therapies have caused death. it's not that stable. What we've found is that at the olympic level, training and diet do far more for atheletic performance than faddish treatments. Maybe this would be used in bodybuilding where they through all sorts of chemicals at their bodies, but I doubt it for the performance events. And finally, whether it's valid or not, they've gotten too zealous about the testing. The cold medicine disqualification of the russian gymnast last olympics is an example of how things have gone too far.
How would they make it work? AFAIK inserted genes look just like native ones. How could they tell the difference without have all available genes on hand for reference?
Lots of viri get past virus scanners, do they expect gene scanner to do any better?
So you mean that I actually have a chance of getting laid?
"The strong will do what they want, the weak will do what they must."
-Thucydides
I say let the jocks use their steroids and gene therapy. When their nuts shrivel up and their genes go bad on them, the nerds they used to talk shit about, can stand back and laugh.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
I'd rather have Brain and Pinky for Pres. and VP than the monkeys that inhabit the office now.
// file: mice.h
#include "frickin_lasers.h"
'We can put genes into mice and create Arnold Schwarzenegger mice.'
Umm, Arnold is not a bodybuilder because of his genes. So we'll see athletes who inject Arnold genes, and wonder why it doesnt quite work, but their accents go really bad.
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
I for one welcome our new genetically altered overlords.
So, I really don't see the point and for once i'm agreeing with congress. Then again I'm pretty sure that a bunch of scientists would probably be selecting against the jocks (imagine committing a form of genocide just because you weren't cool in High School). Okay, it probably won't go that far, but people are going to start to want to peer into the genetic code and see what's going on, and from that point some people are going to ressurect the eugenics argument.
To refute that, evolution is a continuing process that takes a while to reach its perfection (well, to adapt toward its potential, things change to much for perfection) sleecting based on characteristics that we feel are the best and most desirable may not work the best idea, since it will probably promote genetic homogeny and make us fairly vulnerable to diseases and all sorts of things. Whatever I say, I really like the variety that we have right now, it's great stuff, the dynamics keep us on our toes and what not. I've really gone off topic, have a happy celebration of the rape and muder of the Arrowaks and eventual slaughter of most of the native peoples of this country (well, meant in good fun, was much as that staement when following the preceeding statement can be done).
I, for one, welcome our new furry white overlords.
>'We can put genes into mice and create Arnold Schwarzenegger mice.'
Amazing how far genetic insertion therapy has come. They can take an insider GOP mouse with no political experience and turn him into an overly-built "outsider" catch-phrase spewing governor?
If someday they can promise better genes with almost no negative effects, what would be so bad about it? Note the big "if"... Just hypothetically speaking.
EvilCON - Made Famous by
Like Magneto, I too, have my own tin foil hat.
Ah, ha, ha, ha; they'll never find me!
..goes by the name of Bush.
Is that no matter what tests they come up with, the athletes who are "cheating" always seem to stay ahead and not get caught... Much like music sharing and the RIAA ;-)
"Once the technology exists for medical use disreputable people will be putting the stuff in athletes," he warned.
If people want to do that with their bodies, let them.
I think much of this fear of doping has to do with the fact that the olympic committee and sports clubs just don't want the futility of their "competitions" exposed. Right now, they tenuously maintain some illusion of participatory sports.
What difference should it make to anybody whether some olympic athlete pumps himself full of genes? Those people are so far removed from regular human beings that it is like watching a carnival side show anyway.
If you like sports, do it yourself. Compete, in a friendly way, with people you know and like. Anything else is not sports but voyeurism and soap opera.
The earth, everyone knows, was commissioned by the white mice as a great computer to compute the question to Life, the Universe, and Everything, for which the answer is 42, and was built by the custom luxury planet builders of Magrithea, although it was destroyed just before it had found the question.
... So what would happen was that the mice would run round mazes and things so that the whole nature of the learning process could be examined. From our observations of their behavior we were able to learn all sorts of things about our own...'
"'These creatures you call mice, you see, they are not quite as they appear. They are merely the protrusion into our dimension of vastly hyperintelligent pandimensional beings. The whole business with the chesse and the squeaking is just a front.'
The old man pause, and with a sympathetic frown continued. 'They've been experimenting on you, I'm afraid.'
Arthur thought about this for a seond, and then his face cleared.
'Ah no,' he said, 'I see the source of the misunderstanding now. No, look, you see what happened was that we used to do experiements on them.
Arthur's voice trailed off.
'Such subtlety...' said Slartibartfast, 'one has to admire it.'"
A mouse could NEVER get elected as Governor.
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
...anyone else of Gattaca?
Gr@ve_Rose
!ekoj on si aixelsyD
Can't wait until we can buy a $15 at-home test for aim-bot gene hacks.
On a more serious note, who cares? Aren't professional sports about accomplishing the most with the genes you have? Some people will have the Arnold gene for muscle mass. It hardly seems fair to tell athletes with it that they'll just have to try harder and still fail.
These opinions guaranteed or your money back.
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It's funny how people equate muscle size with Arnold. If you look at todays bodybuilders, you'll see someone who is the same height as Arny, but weigh in at 285-300 pounds. I don't think Arnold ever weighed more than 235 pounds. I think they should concentrate on checking for steroid and growth horomone usage, then worry about gene manipulation.
What is the test for vaperware?
How are they going to implement it, maybe they are going to take a "base line" from every competitive athlete, store their genone in a database and then test against it, just to be sure that they haven't cheated by "improving" their genetics. I guess that they are planning to test for the viruses which carry the genetic material, but that is a very short window to test for gene-doping
It just seems like a whole lot of work (and money).
Uh, people....
.
That's the IOC Medical Congress, not the Congress of the United States.
Go here to learn more.
They don't pass laws or do anything else that is going to ever affect your personal life. All they do write rules about drugs and medical practice for the IOC
The Anti-Doping rules are their doing, and they make changes to them all the time.
Would give a whole new meaning to the president getting "a little head"!
... revenge of the nerds (1) played today on comedy central.
If they only made olympic gold medals so that you'd only get to keep it if you lived until you were, say, 50. That'd keep your average uber-doped people out of it, I think.
I mean, tho whole point of anti-doping is to try and keep it healthy, yes? No-one's trying to ban Gatorade or anything...
Sigs for Nerds. Sigs that Matter.
From the article: He said that laboratory mice had shown that gene transfer could lead to a 25 percent leap in muscle mass inside two weeks. If this is the case, and the rats didn't exercise, it would be possible to greatly enhance your physique while coding. The extra muscle mass would burn a lot calories just existing, so your body's fat would also dwindle. This sort of gene therapy could be the savior of the obese America. Sexy/buff looking guys who did nothing to earn it! I kind of don't like the idea, since I actually put in 4 hours of gym time a week, and have gotten pretty muscular. Sounds kind of like cheating, but if it could actually save lives by stopping all these lazy people from killing themselves, maybe it is good. Although it really wouldn't work for the women, unless they want to look like those roid women. Some of them are really scary.
..as mascot again?
Do you want good luck to follow you and your offspring for geneations to come? This troll has the solution for you...
All you have to do is copy this troll onto two to four of the discussion threads of your choice! That's right! Just copy this into a new message and click "post anonymously." That's all there is to it! Taco is an ass.
Tired of that idiot talking about geek culture! Stick one of these babies on it! And it's good for the economy!
Marge Gentry of Cambridge, Minnesota participated, and the next day she received a large fruit basket outside of her door from a secret admirer. Unfortunately, Marge was hit by a truck the next day, so she didn't get to the Granny Smith apples.
Commander Taco of Hole-in-the-ground West Virginia didn't participate, and he was violated by a group of raging homosexuals. Since the gang was headed by Jon Katz, Taco had no recourse to the law because the entire town knew about their previous relationship. The unfortunate outcome is enshrined forever at goatse.cx.
So if you want to get the fruit basket and not get poked in the bread basket, just copy this troll onto two of the discussions threads of your choice. We could have this place blanketed by sundown!
As this article states, the cheaters are way ahead of the drug testers. Notice that they have a quote from the anonymous Olympic Committeeman. "If this were a basketball game, we'd be behind about 98 to 2." I have even read that it is widely believed that rich countries do better in the Olympics primarily because they can afford better masking technologies.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free
So, be sure to watch next year's elections for furry white mice.
There are already plenty of rats in politics, would a couple of mice really make a difference?
I have over 70 freaks, do you?
the thing is, until we know what EVERY SINGLE GENE does (i.e. finish mapping the genome in general), genetic doping or engineering is very dangerous. What if a seemingly desirable gene in fact is the gene for some type of rare genetic disease. In this scenario, if we insert this gene into all our kids, and assuming its recessive, they will be fine. But what about their children, what will happen to them? This is what will happen: all the children of our genetically altered children will die. This will be the crash of first world countries, the only countries able to afford such things, and a new era would start. We would do by and to ourselves more then even the most zealous terrorist can dream of. Why replace a system that's worked for thousands of years with our untried and unproven meddlings? I don't know why, but this reminds me of a book or something...
Investing forum
"So, be sure to watch next year's elections for furry white mice."
I'm sure there's a Douglas Adams / HHGTTG reference here somewhere......
Escoutaire
When a dream dreams the dreamer, the dreams the real.
We're talking sports competitions here, not society at large. In the context of a sports competition everybody is supposed to take it to the limit. That's the whole point. To even get into the competition you assumedly beeat out all kinds of competitiors. You're in it to win it. So why is gene thereapy a problem? Gene therapy should be the epitomy of sportsmanship.
Now that's sports. Sports is one thing and the real world is quite another. In the real world we need a real level playing field, as opposed to what we have today, because everybody just needs to live and get by and have a decent life. But here we're talking about sports.
Do you want good luck to follow you and your offspring for geneations to come? This troll has the solution for you...
All you have to do is copy this troll onto two to four of the discussion threads of your choice! That's right! Just copy this into a new message and click "post anonymously." That's all there is to it! Taco is an ass.
Tired of that idiot talking about geek culture! Stick one of these babies on it! And it's good for the economy!
Marge Gentry of Cambridge, Minnesota participated, and the next day she received a large fruit basket outside of her door from a secret admirer. Unfortunately, Marge was hit by a truck the next day, so she didn't get to the Granny Smith apples.
Commander Taco of Hole-in-the-ground West Virginia didn't participate, and he was violated by a group of raging homosexuals. Since the gang was headed by Jon Katz, Taco had no recourse to the law because the entire town knew about their previous relationship. The unfortunate outcome is enshrined forever at goatse.cx.
So if you want to get the fruit basket and not get poked in the bread basket, just copy this troll onto two of the discussions threads of your choice. We could have this place blanketed by sundown!
I believe that one of the problems facing gene therapy is increased chance of cancer, though I don't have time to google for it.
Testing methods are always a step behind doping methods. It takes 5-10 years after a new trick is available until it can be detected.
I don't know why they don't take samples and keep them around for a few decades until tests have improved. It may take a decade or two, but it would be pretty certain that the cheaters get caught.
(racist) the darn Purto-Ricans / Dominicans / Japanese are pretty much working on engineering the perfect baseball player anyways (/racist)
Bleh. Seriously though, what the hell is wrong with just using Science to take a shortcut to perfection? Hell ain't sports any ways just an outlet and a cheap excuse for mankind's base desire to filter out the more physically fit genes and put them into one big "fuck me now" breeding pool?
Ah, thankfully we have Cocaine and other such wonderful drugs to kill those bastards off.
Ok ok back to being serious now. If science can just leapfrog the entire process, why not do so, play one uber-kick ass game, and no longer preempt REAL tv shows with that monday night football crap?
(yah yah the main thing I have against football is that it preempts Jeopardy, but for a sin that great they can ALL rot in hell)
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
As soon as we can make people more intelligent and we do enough clinical trials I say, let's go for it. What have we got to loose? All we can do is improve the speed of technological progress!
Gene doping and recombinant gene therapy isn't a reality - yet. It will be, though. More importantly, I think, we'll reach the point where fetal gene customization will be possible. How much these technologies will be adopted is largely going to be a matter of cultural preference, but I'm sure there will come a time when people who have been engineered for higher muscle mass, faster reflexes, etc, will want to compete athletically. I can see disqualifying the post-fetal therapies, on the basis that it's the price one pays for having those modifications done. What about the fetal changes, though? Do we disqualify people because their parents opted for genetic modifications?
That just sounds like a lot of steriods, and they just didn't get caught. Their have also been reports of the Chinese using some weird half-men women in competition (an extra chromosome or something).
His point was that the athetes in these events are natural. They were comparable in the sense that the athletes of time past and present were both made though hard work. The equiptment may change in some sports, but at least that is just equiptment and the human body can remain the same.
If you took an olympian 70 years ago and brought him into the future, or took a modern athlese and took him in the past to train, you could then compare. If you start gene doping, that isn't possible because these people stop being natural humans, but engineered humans.
Yeah, but could the Arnold Schwarzenegger mice become governor too?
The geek backlash has taken down Georgy Russell: at a Schwarzenegger rally a few day before the election (last week), she was beaten by the steroidal crowd.
--
make install -not war
I agree 100%... Who gives a shit if they want to inject themselves with ?
Let them... I for one think that it'd actually make the Olympics exciting to see all kinds of fucked up mutants battling it out for a piece of gold...
Hey, we know already that humans are not the most intelligent race on the face of the Earth, let alone pandimensional.
JeR
What has the article got to do with Scottish people exactly ? Jocks ?
This would seem to be the opening move in what will most likely become a big issue in the next century. Genetic modification of human beings is already happening with gene therapy, and I don't think it will be long before babies are born modified to not have certain genetic diseases.
It will start with things that really screw your life up, like major mental and behavioral problems, or being born without a nervous system. From there, people will want to "cure" things like colour blindness or left handedness. What about having red hair and fair skin, which makes you more prone to sunburn and skin cancer? If people can be cured of learning difficulties, why should below average intelligence people not be "cured"? Top athletes often have random genetic "enhancements" like a bigger heart, so why shouldn't everyone?
One popular solution seems to be to just exclude genetically modified people from good jobs, sporting events etc. The problem is, if you are born that way, you didn't exactly choose it but are non-the-less punished for it.
MoJo
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Some unluck kid dies because of gene therapy and everybody wanna stop with it.
On the other hand, we have people that "apparently" mastered this technique already.
Two options: either we have several crippled/dead test athletes or they already know how to do it safely...
Some things are to tricky to work properly...
how long until
Whatever happened to 'my body, my choice' and all those slogans....?
>So, be sure to watch next year's elections for furry white mice.
"You and your bloody mices." - Arthur Dent.
They'll be easy to spot....they'll be in the giant human suit. ;-)
Do you want good luck to follow you and your offspring for geneations to come? This troll has the solution for you...
All you have to do is copy this troll onto two to four of the discussion threads of your choice! That's right! Just copy this into a new message and click "post anonymously." That's all there is to it! Taco is an ass.
Tired of that idiot talking about geek culture! Stick one of these babies on it! And it's good for the economy!
Marge Gentry of Cambridge, Minnesota participated, and the next day she received a large fruit basket outside of her door from a secret admirer. Unfortunately, Marge was hit by a truck the next day, so she didn't get to the Granny Smith apples.
Commander Taco of Hole-in-the-ground West Virginia didn't participate, and he was violated by a group of raging homosexuals. Since the gang was headed by Jon Katz, Taco had no recourse to the law because the entire town knew about their previous relationship. The unfortunate outcome is enshrined forever at goatse.cx.
So if you want to get the fruit basket and not get poked in the bread basket, just copy this troll onto two of the discussions threads of your choice. We could have this place blanketed by sundown!
Do you want good luck to follow you and your offspring for geneations to come? This troll has the solution for you....
All you have to do is copy this troll onto two to four of the discussion threads of your choice! That's right! Just copy this into a new message and click "post anonymously." That's all there is to it! Taco is an ass.
Tired of that idiot talking about geek culture! Stick one of these babies on it! And it's good for the economy!
Marge Gentry of Cambridge, Minnesota participated, and the next day she received a large fruit basket outside of her door from a secret admirer. Unfortunately, Marge was hit by a truck the next day, so she didn't get to the Granny Smith apples.
Commander Taco of Hole-in-the-ground West Virginia didn't participate, and he was violated by a group of raging homosexuals. Since the gang was headed by Jon Katz, Taco had no recourse to the law because the entire town knew about their previous relationship. The unfortunate outcome is enshrined forever at goatse.cx.
So if you want to get the fruit basket and not get poked in the bread basket, just copy this troll onto two of the discussions threads of your choice. We could have this place blanketed by sundown!
think about Gates and Ballmer.
they're Pinky and the Brain,
yes Pinky and the Brain,
one is a genius,
the other's insane,
each night their plan's unfurled,
to take over the world
CF is a disease that could be perfectly treated by gene therapy... it comes from a single defect, though the defect itself can vary, in the cell membrane Chloride channel. Treat the defect, and you can avoid all the consequences of CF (pneumonia, pancreatitis, sterility, Pseudomonas colonization, etc). CF is one of the most common genetic diseases, and is THE most common lethal genetic defect among caucasians.
For the non-medical, non-bio-science geeks, Here's some info courtesy of the NIH. Much like genetic counseling for various hemoglobinopathies, an argument can be made for the same approach here, particularly since some estimates put the CF gene prevalance at 5% in the white/northern european population.
Curiously, there's speculation as to how that gene became so prevalant... it appears to be protective against Cholera, and perhaps some other diarrheal illnesses. Additionally, it may also offer some resistance against Typhoid. The theory has been advanced that partial resistance among heterozygotes provided a genetic advantage during the plagues of humanity's past, which included Typhoid and Cholera.
KFG: I've taken care of many CF patients... Do you mind terribly if I ask your approximate age?
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
I can see it now...
Pinky, are you thinking what I'm thinking?
Barring massive social breakdown in the next twenty years, it looks like GM Athletes are inevitable. My reasoning is that the technology will become cheap and safe (in that order) and whether someone is an olympic athlete or not, they may want it. It is unlikely that once it gets into the reach of ordinary people some few athletes will abstain on the grounds that they want to compete at a professional level. And where is the glamour of proffesional sports if amateurs are breaking the records. It will come.
The IOC would be better off not banning it even initially however for several reasons. Not the least of which is the permanence of it. Because a kid at school had his genes spliced is he forever banned from competitive sports in adult life?
The IOC bans substances on the following grounds:
1. It is harmful to the athlete.
2. It enhances performance
3. It is against the spirit of the sport.
The last reason is vague, subjective and in my opinion should be dropped. By these guidelines, steroids are banned, but creatine (sensibly) is not. Gene-therapy for athletes will fulfill condition one, but probably not for long.
Also, what happens when someone is modified without consent because it was done to them while they were a fetus, or even before implantation?
The greatest risks are not in sport. The greatest risks are in parents having too much control over their offspings genes. For example - a survey in the USA showed that 75% of parents would refer a male first child. This is now possible. Over time it will become cheap and accepted. Can you picture what the USA would be like with an adult 3:1 Male-Female ratio? Think about it.
And on a personal note - all this I couldn't get laid, I weigh 98lbs stuff on Slashdot is starting to annoy me. Just because I'm a C++ programmer, doesn't mean I don't weigh 196lb and spar at the gym form time to time (which I do). People - get some pride!!!
See my post above where I talk about examples of how "taking it to the limit" has ruined talented athletes and even the sport itself.
This has already happened with dog sports..Why bring it into human sports as well?
Fuzdout
..My sig ran away. Has anyone seen my sig?
By all rights we should require that athletes provide test results over a long period of time and take supplements where necessary to ensure that all of them exhibit the same level of performance enhancing hormones. Then the competition breaks down to strategy, including such factors as what they chose to eat. It is generally considered desirable for the "playing field" to be "level".
I presume that testing for gene doping is difficult because the body would never produce over the high range of normal in those cases. So why is that bad? Perhaps we should encourage gene doping since it might alleviate the prevalence of other methods of "cheating".
Roseanne Barr is your graphic designer?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Where to I get some of that gene theropy?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
He was an excellent bodybuilder because of his motivation.
Of course, if it was just genes, we wouldn't have those puny legs.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
This is an interesting question - I can see that they would not allow a genetically modified super-athlete to compete, but what about that person's children? They may still carry the genes, yet those genes were passed on to them naturally. Will having on genetically modified ancestor (say to make them stronger to resist cancer) ruin an entire family's chances of ever competing in international sports? If not, how many generations must occur without genetic modification before the modified-gene advantage is considered diluted enough?
These are all questions that need to be answered once we get into this debate.
Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
that's a good point. you can take the joker out of hialeah, but you cant take the hialeah out of the joker .
any heads from miami know exactly what i mean.
"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." - Rahm Emanuel
ohhhh.....
someday, yeah ....
Brings to mind the ol' insult of:
"Are you a man or a mouse?"
"Well? Squeek up!"
no pun intended...
"Love is like pi - natural, irrational, and very important." (Lisa Hoffman)
I can't believe this thread has gotten so far without even one reference to the original megalomaniacal mouse (and comic foil).