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China Outlines Moon Project Goals
Kulic writes "SpaceDaily.com is reporting that China has announced 4 scientific goals for their Moon project. There are three general goals - orbiting the Moon, docking spacecraft with one another in lunar orbit, and returning moon rock samples to Earth. Each step is outlined, with a detailed description of what they hope to accomplish during the orbiting stage. It looks like China is serious about their space program, and is taking an incremental approach."
It's good to see another nation making a dedicated push towards space exploration. Perhaps it will help redirect US endeavors in that direction as well - at the very least, it's a good way to boost high tech education and business in the US, which is struggling in the face of global competition (i.e. software & IT outsourcing).
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
RTFA. Their scientific goals clearly indicate some interest in commercial exploitation in the form of mining... They are taking an approach that is quite different from the US one.
Just probing? I mean, that's all fine and dandy, but NASA and ESA did plenty of that. We want moon bases damnit! With Chinese restaurants of course! What good is space tourism, if you can't have a nice walk on a different planet or satellite and enjoy a nice dinner by earthlight.
"If anyone needs me, I'm in the angry dome."
can somebody tell me how this is incremental? here were the steps listed in order: 1)orbiting the Moon 2)docking spacecraft with one another in lunar orbit 3)and returning moon rock samples to Earth. they just got into space and they already want to tackle the moon? and they have more than one spacecraft to dock in lunar orbit? IMO, that's like me saying i'm going to create an operating system, gain 80% of the market, and run gates out of the OS business... but it's all going to happen in increments...
"It looks like China is serious about their space program, and is taking an incremental approach."
Is this opposed to, say, the "do it all at once" approach?
The Chinese have put a man into orbit. That's a great success for them, considering there ain't too many other countries that have done it. But just assuming that, hey, it's a short trip to the moon is naive. There's no way they would have been able to take another flight straight to the moon, if only for lack of experience.
-Erwos
Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
... you think too highly of the /. community if you expect them to think before opening their mouth
to quote The Economist magazine;
"Congratulations China, no need for aid right?"
Researches on the shape, size, distribution, and density will be made on the crates on the moon.
Crates, eh? Jesus; did these SpaceDaily people use Babelfish is something?
Secondly, nobody will believe if Chinese they show movies of it of course.
All lunar missions must be face as the legend of the American mission showed.
There are three general goals - orbiting the Moon, docking spacecraft with one another in lunar orbit, and returning moon rock samples to Earth. Each step is outlined, with a detailed description of what they hope to accomplish during the orbiting stage.
Yea, I saw this outline before, in the 1960's. It was called the Apollo program. If the Chinese "outline" were a college paper (in the days before uncreativity was rewarded) it would be submitted to the academic dishonisty board under the charge of a big word that begins with 'p' and ends in 'lagiarism'
Please see the NASA website for the origonal.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
Well, of course they're taking an incremental approach! What did you expect? A light speed trip to Alpha Centauri, then the moon landing?
Perhaps I'm being too literal. :-)
zWhat would an EWOULDBLOCK block, if an EWOULDBLOCK could block would? -- me
... and then sue the pants of the Chinese for applying the rational thinking that apparently the United States invented. I think it would work out swell.
The Economist recently pointed out that China still recieved huge wads of international aid (premium content, no link, sorry). Sending men to the moon is a noble goal, but maybe it's something they ought to do on their own nickel.
Don't they (Chinese) know that the USofA has staked its claim of ownership years ago? I wonder if the Stars and Stripes are still "flying" on the surface of the moon.
The facts expressed here belong to all, the opinions to me. The distinction between fact and opinion is yours to decide.
It's good to see someone getting into the space program. I don't consider what is being up there now as progress at all, there is no aim, there just up there to show that they can. I guess we will also know definatively if the US ever made it to the moon as well.
Personally I just want to see some more real space exploration progress. I still belive there is bound to be intelligent life out there; I just hope we make contact in my life time.
VENI, VIDI, VICI, DIXI
Whos knows maybe moonbases will become a relatity in my lifetime.
While it is true that humanity as a whole has previous experince in landing on another rock in the solar system, the chinese do not. And it's more sensible to do it the first time in relative proximity to earth, where communications are nearly instantinious and home is just four days away, rahter than to go to Mars and hope everything works out just like they did in the simulator.
AFAIK, the chinese are plannin g a spacestation as well as a manned moonmission, and I got a hunch they won't stop there. So far all of their achivments can be dismissed as something other nations already has done - but as far as I can understand the mindset that drives the chinese spaceprograme (which appears to be close to the mindset that drove the early soviet and US spaceprogrames), they 'need' to do something spectaluar that no-one has done before.
A permanet moonbase might suit this criteria, or a manned mission to Mars... but they need to learn to walk before they can run.
Everything in the world is controlled by a small, evil group to which, unfortunately, no one you know belongs.
This is exactly what NASA needs right now. A kick in their complacent, idle butts. As you can read in my previous post ,I think that NASA needs to have a similar goal-oriented approach to their mission. Perhaps if we get shown up by what had been a second world country, we will get back into the Apollo mindset again.
Blaze a trail to the New World
>>It looks like China is serious about their space
:) China will be the most, without a doubt the most wealthy nation by far. Im not going to speculate when this happens, but im sure they're already only second to the all mighty USA. So looks like they'll have enough money to keep it going into the future.
>>program, and is taking an incremental approach
Well, at least someone is. Also incase anyone hasnt noticed
Exciting stuff!
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Actually, it seems like the money would be better spent in China, improving the humanitarian and social situation.
I'm all for space programs, but a country like China should reconsider its priorities.
Now I know how the vikings would have felt watching Cortez leave for the new world. Maybe we shoudl have stuck around there for a bit longer...
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
As far as I'm concerned the Chinese are at the same level now. Everyone's whining about how we've already been to the moon, but blame NASA for not going anywhere beyond that. It's their damn fault.
That's what the Moon is - a very large space station in orbit 240,000 miles above the Earth.
It receives unlimited, very strong, solar energy, and provides plenty of raw materials. It also provides unlimited, very high quality industrial vacuum, and is an ideal site for optical and radio astronomy. It is also a fine launch pad for interplanetary traffic, since it has only 1/6 the gravity of Earth and no atmosphere.
Granted, it may be lacking in certain resources, but the recent discovery of 100,000,000 tons of water near the lunar South Pole certainly casts things in a new light. A sustainable colony is most likely feasible.
If we weren't mired down in massive red tape and environmental regulations, perhaps private enterprise here in the West could take a shot at competing with the Chinese government. I'm pretty sure space flight is about to become commercially viable, especially if there is a breakthrough or two. Scramjets and detonation based engines are two possibilities.
We also need a non-crewed heavy lifter that'll take the "freight into space cheap" crown. Then big lunar and interplanetary ships can be constructed in orbit.
Safe, high performance power (fission, fusion or antimatter) needs to become a reality soon for interplanetary travel. That will be the revolution in the 21st century to rival flight in the 20th.
We'll see if we can get more than a million people into space a year by 2100...well probably not me personally... ;-)
Galileo: "The Earth revolves around the Sun!"
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"...announced 4 scientific goals for their Moon project. There are three general goals..."
Excuse me? Half the Chinese kids I ever knew at school were math whizzes... what happened?
So, I'm not a scientist, but what are the chances that the moon habours a great deal of precious metals or minerals? I'm certain there's going to be a lot of abundant metals like iron etc but what about the stuff that could add incentive to the high cost of going to the moon and bringing the stuff back? If there was enough of it you could get some commerical interest from LUNAR PROSPECTORS.
I don't know how easy it would be to get a pack mule into a space suit though.
Yeah, why would they possibly want to take things one step at a time? It's not like China doesn't know anything about space exploration that NASA does. NASA has all their knowledge and experiences freely available to the public. Really, in this day and age, if I had a whole lot of money, I'm sure I could build a spaceship and travel to the moon. How primitive.
Adidas To Bring Back Sneakernet
Idiot.
Look at your own country first.
can somebody tell me how this is incremental? here were the steps listed in order: 1)orbiting the Moon 2)docking spacecraft with one another in lunar orbit 3)and returning moon rock samples to Earth. they just got into space and they already want to tackle the moon? and they have more than one spacecraft to dock in lunar orbit? IMO, that's like me saying i'm going to create an operating system, gain 80% of the market, and run gates out of the OS business... but it's all going to happen in increments...
1. It's incremental because they have a series of goals, each more complex than the previous one, and aim to acheive each one in order.
Really, is that so hard to understand? Has the meaning of the word "incremental" changed or something?
2. The goals aren't only acheivable, they've already been acheived once.
NASA did all this back in the 60's, in the same order - lunar orbits, lunar docking, then finally lunar landing and return. If NASA can do it, then so can the Chinese. All it takes is manpower and resources, which won't be an issue for China.
Remember, JFK announced the US's intention to go to the moon and back just a few years after the first American was launched into space. At the time of that announcement, the US had as much experience, perhaps less, of space exploration, rocketry, etc than China has today. Again, if the US could make such a bold claim then and deliver then there is no reason to dismiss China's claim so flippantly.
Is China in a position to put men on the moon today? No. Will China be in a position to put men on the moon 10 years from now? You better believe it.
Space exploration is all about small steps of steady progress and giant leaps of vision. If Neil Armstrong could recognise that standing on the surface of the moon 34 years ago then why can't you today?
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Is there some kind of international agreement dictating ownership? Or is this like the new world - a first-come, first-served queue?
> If we weren't mired down in massive red tape ... Chinese government
Red tape... Chinese... communist plot!!!
We'll see if we can get more than a million people into space a year by 2100...
If looks like NASA found the easy way of accomplishing this goal - only send the 'essence' of each person into space. Kind of like how they send orange-juice into space as Tang.
NASA launches satellites, cremated remains
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
Why not? What better to read the barcodes at the lunar supermarket?
The truth shall set you free!
Instead of denigrating a fantastic acheivement, why not congratulate them ?
Going to Mars is a fine scientific aim, but if you read between the lines, their aims are also commercial - the moon is a definite target then...
Simon
Physicists get Hadrons!
I've heard some historians argue that Human civilization could have been a lot more advanced by now if it hadn't been for the Dark Ages, that sent most of Europe back into superstition and ignorance, and took a thousand years to reverse.
This time, we're not facing the Barbarian Hordes. No, we've got something much worse -- bureaucracy! How long will it take to untangle ourselves from all this red tape and resume scientific progress? Or are we doomed to another age of arrested growth?
Cept the government of China doesn't believe it has a humanitarian or social situation. Everything is fine, in their eyes, so a space program seems a reasonalbe expendature of funds.
I would be worried about fucking with the moon too much. How can we make sure we do not get the moon out of orbit?
Cuz, that would really suck...the lack of tides alone would cause ecosystems to collapse.
On a side note, how would a space elevator from the moon work? Would it need to be much shorter (due to lower gravity), and be able to be built with existing materials? If this is the case, we could use it to launch spaceships from there!
[I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it]
They may be 36 years behind the States in the launching of the space program, but consider that the Cultural Revolution had basically pushed the nation back for at least 20 years (when they stopped progressing for 10 years from 1966 to 1976, while everyone else kept developing), you're talking about a big leap over here.
And after all, they are ranked third in this space race, if you still count Russia as being part of it.
There is a problem with 80% of the chinese being peseants? Of all the problems China faces (pollution, harsh working conditions, crime etc), I'd hardly say people actually being peasents is a *problem*
Ofc, if you measure the Chinese society with our values (doh, there are people without color-tv's!) they come off pretty badly, but like it or not; Chinese value things quite differently than we do. (While urban Chinese are more proned to individualsizm/materiliasm, most of China is still 'stuck' in the group-thing/socialism/village-mentality which is quite different from anything we're used to)
The other thing is, in a largely centralized non-capitalistic country, it becomes more of a question of which resources you have available, not how much money to buy resources from the private corporations. There is a slight, but important difference there, as it means prioritizing on one thing won't necessarily mean downpiroritizing something else.
(I'm not native english speaking, so please excuse the semi-crappy english)
"" How about taking the safety labels off everything, and let the stupidity-problem solve itself? """
How about getting the hell out of Tibet before invading the moon.
I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but it seems as if the Chinese government is looking to develop a more cost effective way of travelling in space as well.
*snip*Here the satellite probes solar energetic particles, plasma in solar wind, and the interaction between the solar wind and the moon and between the tail of the magnetic field of the earth and the moon.*/snip*
I'm no rocket scientist but there's a few here. Care to take a stab at this?
Sig not found.
"There is a problem with 80% of the chinese being peasants?"
A peasant is a person with almost no education. Yes, there is a problem with that. I see the point you are making, but it doesn't apply here.
The truth is out there -- X-Files
I could level equal charges against the US. 13,000+ shot dead every year, god knows how many more killed on the roads, a welfare system that pales into comparison compared to that of any other developed world nation, a crumbling school system that's badly underfunded yet the US finds it more important to wage war half way around the world.
Why spend billions fighting a war? If Saddam was the problem then why not just put a $1 billion bounty on his head? It would have been cheaper and it probably would have been more successful.
Does the US really need tens of thousands of nuclear warheads? Wouldn't a few hundred be enough? Just how many $1.3 billion B-2 stealth bombers does the USAF need? They're going to get 20, but the original order was 144... Even so, wouldn't that money be better spent elsewhere?
See? I can construct a similar myopic argument detailing why money shouldn't be spent on grand endeavours for just about any nation in the world. Just because you think that there's no benefit to the average Chinese citizen in this lunar programme that doesn't make it so. If I recall correctly, people made the same argument about the NASA Apollo missions, and the scientific acheivements of Apollo and the success of its commercial spin-offs are still benefitting us today.
Something tells me if this new endeavour came from NASA rather than China you'd be the first to jump on the "about time too" bandwagon. Stop being so damn xenophobic.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
You are so right. I find it hard to believe that people think we faked the moon landings in the late 60's and early 70's. I know the lunar landings were very important to the US space program. I still find it hard to believe that they would try and fake it. Sure there are plenty of people that believe they did. I worked as a contractor at NASA - JSC in Houston and can tell you they would have had a hard time getting everyone (all members of the Apollo team/contractors) to just play along with that large of a hoax. I have seen pictures on the web (likely photo-shopped and doctored) that show certain anomolies with the landings. However, when it is all said and done the US where the first to land men on the moon, conduct scientific research on the lunar surface and return rock samples/men back to Earth.
I wish the Chinese the best of luck in their endeavor. I am sure there are a lot of hard working people in China with the same dreams of doing what the US did over 30 years ago. NASA and the US may wake up and understand that the world will move ahead with manned exploration of the lunar surface whether they are in the race or not. I definately think that we should pursue exploring the lunar surface again with a manned mission and then move onto Mars by 2030.
the romanized spelling of their mission is simply 'change'. (Chang'e I)
guess we oughta get used to the idea that only china has something left to prove politically in space, and the resources to do it.
combine their drive, resources, and that they learned from the US situation and are sticking with proven technology specifically designed for the mission at hand -- and China will either meltdown or raise the bar outside our atmosphere.
it's gonna be a different world when you have to learn Mandarin to vacation on the moon.
// "Can't clowns and pirates just -try- to get along?"
From the parent post: "Look at your own country first."
Did that: History surrounding the U.S. war with Iraq: Four short stories. Here's a quote: "The least sophisticated way of relating to other people is killing them."
Also, I don't think it is a good practice to call someone an "idiot" because you disagree with them.
Now we know where those 500 billion dollars in foreing investment in china have gone.
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
when a new Chinese Space Mission update is posted on slashdot some people start to complain:
- China has other problems and moon is not a priority
- Been there done that they are 30 years late
You have to know that China is not spending ALL the money on space travel. It's working on its own problems right now. It's a developping country but the thing is it's a hell of a developping country with almost a billion workers that are about to create the biggest market in the world.
You did that 30 years ago... ok. And what ?
What about doing REAL space and moon exploration instead of a big show off like the Appolo program was ?
China is planning actual exploitation of moon ressources within the next 50 years. They could really become prevalent in the future just because of the bargain they are doing today. Imagine if they manage to set up a full moon base.
They would become prevalent in energy, astronomy, vacuum manufacturing and space exploration. You should think about it and maybe the US government should try to spend less money on war and maybe a little more on space exploration...
Iraq: war to save the U
I doubt that's a problem with their space program getting too much money. You say it yourself -- its a humanitarian and social problem. I'm sure China can attempt solving that one without cutting down on space program funding which is probably still extremely small when considering the big picture.
By the way, I'd say the same thing to those who think USA should lower their funding for NASA to solve violence on the street, mass murders in school clases, etc.
I think it's a problem that are better solved than minimizing funding for organizations that already have small funding when taking the country's budget into account.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
I don't think anyone would mind a nuclear war in space. As long as the nukes don't hit low earth orbit or any closer, there really wouldn't be that many terrible side effects. You have to remember the moon is four days away from earth, not the 1/2 hour or so it takes to get low earth orbit.
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
Yes, may be a bit overrated
Every time we return to Mars (successfully) we learn more because the instruments are modern. The 2001 photo orbiter has 20 times the resolution of the 1976 orbiter. This permitted seeing layering in valleys, indicative of water action. The 2008 orbiter will has five times better resolution for learning more geology.
The Moon has only been revisited twice since the 1960s, so there is much to learn with improved instruments. Especially since only eight locations have been sampled by US and Soviet expeditions. I dont care whether NASA, the ESA or China does this, as long as somebody does.
I almost completely agree with you. I was writing this earlier comment while you were writing yours: Did that: History surrounding U.S. war with Iraq, #7453105.
Back to the original topic: The Chinese have extremely severe social problems, and space science is a self-destructive cover-up.
You said, "... people made the same argument about the NASA Apollo missions, and the scientific acheivements of Apollo and the success of its commercial spin-offs are still benefitting us today."
What achievements? Unless someone can name some significant achievements, I will continue believing that the cost of the U.S. space program has far, far outweighed any achievements.
I would be worried about fucking with the moon too much. How can we make sure we do not get the moon out of orbit?
That's easy! Make sure you don't cut the string!
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
The U.S. had a perfectly good functioning nuclear ramjet and abandoned the project. There were also fission rocket engines built, quite powerful ones.
<sarcasm> I wonder why those projects got dropped.. ?</sarcasm>
Tho' I must admit, given the chance to work on something like that it would be hard to resist... :-)
Yeah...we're not going to be able to get the moon out of orbit any time soon. I'm sure you've seen some of those huge craters on it? When the meteorites which impacted and formed those craters hit, they released the energy equivalent to thousands of the most powerful nuclear weapons going off at the same time, yet it's still happily buzzing around Earth.
Moon coming out of orbit with devastating results for life on Earth and happening within your lifetime; one more thing you can take off your worry list.
My other SIG is a 9mm.
Score: -1 100% Flamebait
Score: 5 Funny
Ahem, we cant even get our USA asses to the moon anymore.
i'd say that with-in 2 years that china will be much farther ahead of the USA in space that it will be silly.
Hell if they figure out a way to launch sattelites cheaper than NASA and the EU maybe it will be a way to finally get the powers that be off their asses and actually do something in regards to the space program.
Go China! make the dirt cheap access to space a reality, just like they did with computers.
(If your moherboard,processor and ram were made in the states, we would be paying SGI and SUN prices for the low end stuff...)
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Actually, that's not the currently believed theory.
The entire human nuclear arsonal, if strategically placed, could blow the moon into tiny little pieces (actually, one very powerful bomb could supposedly do this).
Most geologists think that this is true of the Earth as well - if we aim something between techtonic plates, they think we can send a shockwave to the core and blow the planet to chunks.
Perhaps you meant "the entire non-nuclear arsonal"?
Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
I'm sure Japan is pleased to know where their 2.26 trillion yen in foreign aid to China went over the past 25 years.
China's motivation is interesting. As far as I can see there is no obvious military reason what they are doing, but they are doing it anyway. If they are doing it out of their own choice perhaps they will go further and achieve more.
No, he meant Nuclear arsenal. Those scientists with those theories are not taken seriously within the geological community.
Think careful about earthquakes : they are the build up and release of energy many MANY orders of magnitude greater than the largest atomic bomb, and they happen..... right between the joins of tectonic plates.
This alone should be enough to show that having a nuclear explosion in the crust affect the core or the tectonic is a ludicrous idea, but then consider that below the crust much of the material has properties and behaviours that more closely approximately liquids than solids - and that the impact of an explosion or otherwise would dissipate in many directions, rather than focusing in one.
These were not achievements of space technology. Can you explain the connection?
http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html
Hokey statistics and ancient misconceptions are no match for a good thought in your head, kid!
Does anyone know about any othernations that are planning to get into space?
Such comments really make me mad...
Why should we hinder science when there is problems at home?
Yes, China have it's problems, but there is no reason to halt scientific endevours because you have problems back home. Think Columbus: The inquisition was murdering people in Europe, burning innocent women, but was it wrong to travel elsewhere when there was problems at home? NO IT WAS NOT!
As with NASA (in the past at least), the Chinese space program will generate more money then put in.
Think on ITER: the next big fusion reactor to be built, it has been severely delayed due to politicians being to yellow to "waste" money on a longterm project. Not that fusion wouldn't solve the worlds energy problems, it's just that it is more correct to work on short term problems such as local healthcare issues and more "cheaper" solutions for the long term problems, but not so good out of a technical perspective (e.g. wind power).
Science and exploration should NEVER be put on hold due to other existing problems.
"Civis Europaeus sum!"
I remember that superman film where lex luther bought up loads desert near the San Andreas fault and launched nukes to trigger an earthquake that would tip LA into the sea, turning his worthless desert real estate into prime beaches.
My god, it's full of SARS.
I'm sure I'll get (Score: 0, troll) for this but, this does disturb me. I saw a program on the BBC the other day, unsurprisingly apalling as usual. It demonstrated the inequality of China as a handful of volunteers were working in a village to help aids sufferers. There reward from the Chinese government: A good beating according to a friend of mine from the region. The program showed how the volunteers were tracked by the government as China wants to deny the existence of these sufferers to the outside world.. ..meanwhile:
China plans top go to the moon.
That government need to take a 1 way trip to the mars if you ask me.
"It's not the destination thats important, it's the journey".
I don't like the journey China is taking.
I find it strange that a country that requires so much foreign aid ($1.8 Billion according to the Economist) can afford to have a space program. Perhaps it's time to cut them off...
This is not the sig line you're looking for... move along.
You'll love my journal then. http://slashdot.org/~Stargoat/journal. Check it out. I write about the PRC, the ROC, and a good deal of other things most folks don't pay attention to.
Hoist Number One and Number Six.
With China making a concerted moon effort to explore the moon, the question naturaly arises, who will govern the moon? Will it be like Antartica with multinational scientific stations, or the Wild West with each country grabbing all the land it can and fighting over it? Should it be managed for commercial use like the National Forests in the U.S., or for preservation and tourism like the National Parks? The international community needs to get that straight now before China tries to make the moon another Tibet.
an ill wind that blows no good
This reminds me of the song "Werner Von Braun" by Tom Leher. It ends:
...In German und English I know how to count down
Und I'm learning Chinese, says Werner Von Braun.
I'll take the #12, the MOON Goo Gai Pan. Hee hee!
As Tom Cullen said in The Stand, "M-O-0-N. That spell's Chinese! Laws, yes!"
Hey, can you achieve proper Feng Shui in a cratered environment?
Just as long as the Indians don't beat them to it. Man, then even the vacuum would smell like curry.
--- Ban humanity.
Cheese Not Like The United States Didn't acomplish that over 20 years ago. I think China Could Save Plenty Of Money By Just Reading The Books About it. Theirs got to be an alterior motive their launching satilites or something
That's what the Moon is - a very large space station in orbit 240,000 miles above the Earth.
That's no moon, it's a space station!
Well ok, it's a moon and a space station.
Thank you for saying that. They SHOULD first worry about their country and the people living in it.
If they really want to go to space, they should work closely with all of the other countries that have been doing it for a while. Instead of fighting, we should all work together on a common goal.
"All your [moon] base belong to us!". ;-)
-psy
We (the West in general, USA in specific) are not a worshipful society. In fact, we've pretty much lost track of what 'worship' really means. We pretty much pin the term on going to church on Sunday, and grace and prayer other times during the week.
But isn't 'worship' really more about how you run your life, and where your priorties are?
So in that context, isn't running just about *everything* by the 'bottom line' functionally equivalent to worshiping money?
It also makes it more than a little ironic that these days, those who espouse religion the loudest also seem to have quite a bit of money.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
You are talking about feeding 1.3 billion people.
I think international pressure would be enough to keep China from claiming the moon. What would really piss me off is if they took down the American flag once they got there! Or if they decided to destroy American footprints.. I think either one of those would put NASA and America back into high gear.
What is your penile percentile?
Historically, when a nation pushes out, they always thrive down the road. It is when they focus just on their own conditions or on trying to dominate something local (local being relative to the time; long ago, it was a neighbor. Now it is the entire world) by invading them, it tends to kill the country long term.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
While, I would prefer going to Mars (for humanities sake), getting to the moon now, makes a lot of political sense. Unfortunatly, the USA has slowly lost its space capabilities since 1972. Every Admin for the last 30 years has kept contributing to the ultimate downturn of NASA to the point where we are not even able to currently put a person into space let alone on the moon.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Forget about Japen. China waived Japan's war refund for WW2.
If they really want to go to space, they should work closely with all of the other countries that have been doing it for a while. Instead of fighting, we should all work together on a common goal.
But who is fight a war right now? US or China. I believe US wouldn't tell China its knowledge so that they can work together.
The K-T is a different thing. Metal slamming into the earth in an indiscrimante place is less likely to cause damage than a well placed small nuclear bomb.
Think about all the H3 on this planet and the fact that it causes no real issues. But place a small % in a ball, compress it, and then see what happens. A little bit of engineering can do a lot of damage even to the moon.
As to the likelyhood of an accident causing the earth or the moon (more or less what the grandparent suggests), that is near impossible.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I know what you are all thinking... when will I be able to eat chinese food on the moon? Alas, there aren't a lot of things I want more than to have a Colonel Pao's chicken on the lunar surface. No, I'm not crazy, I just think chinese food and space go hand in hand, just like chinese food and MSG. Indeed, chinese food, because of the preservative properties of MSG, is probably ideally suited for space. Delicious.
No really, the chinese have launched their first man into outer space. This is good for a number of reasons:
1) It puts pressure on the Bush administration fund NASA as opposed to the war effort.
2) Fear of a red moon will jolt the American people out of their complacent attitude which holds as self-evident America's domination of outer space.
3) It will lead to the commercialization of space travel.
I have long been of the opinion that NASA (and the US government) has let down the people of our great country. I refer to some comments I made when the Columbia disaster occurred:
Regardless of whether the foam did it or not, I think the point is that the shuttle itself is a dinosaur. We need a newer/cheaper/faster method of getting into space. A few months ago on slashdot, someone wrote a comment that there are 5 shuttle orbiters, and 2 have crashed... that means NASA has lost 40% of its shuttle fleet. Sure the shuttles go on multiple dangerous missions etc... but 40% failure rate during a vehicles usable lifetime is an indication to me that NASA is very bad at what they do. I don't give a damn about the 60's and 70's, I am a child of the 80's... NASA has done nothing for me except TANG. Between the hubble mirror being faulty, the space shuttles going down, and the fact that NASA clearly has a policy that wants to keep the average joe from getting into space, I'm pissed. New management is necessary for me to beleive in NASA again. Every American should have a chance to view the earth from outer space in 100 years, thats the future I want, not scientists mucking around with earthworms... I want parties in space.
Lets hope that with China now in the race that I will be partying on the moon this time next year.
"Smokey, this isn't Nam, there are rules." -Walter
Just because Nasa under Dan Goldin couldn't make money in space doesn't mean the Chinese won't. A central question though: how will the increased prosperity in China translate into improved conditions for the masses?
Wow. So Europeans have to "show some gratitude once in awhile".
So where was that US gratitude towards France when it (together with the majority of the country's on the UN Security Council, and in the General Assembly) opposed military intervention in Iraq?
If if wasn't for the French intervention on behalf of the colonies during the American War of Independence then the US would almost certainly not exist today. Yet somehow, most Americans, especially those in office, tend to forget these facts. Yep, nothing says gratitude as much as bad-mouthing your oldest ally to hell and back, ripping up menus, relabelling french fries as "freedom fries", pouring vintage wine down the drain, etc.
"Ask the French wine industry how well bashing America has worked out for them."? America bashed France, not the other way around. Apparently, telling someone that they might be going about things the wrong way is the highest of all treasons.
Why is it that when one of America's allies suggests that it might veto a US-proposed resolution because it (together with most of the world) has grave reservations about the situation that is treated like some sort of hostile act?
Why does that become cause for the US adminstration to start accusing France of "breaking the UN"? And why when America is the sole dissenting voice blocking UN resolutions condemning Israel for it's actions in the West Bank and Gaza Strip isn't that considered "breaking the UN"? So the US gets to use its veto whenever it wants but when another country says it will use its own veto then that's not allowed? What fucking hypocrisy.
Frankly, if you think that France started this whole Franco-American spat then you're blind as a bat.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Dude, you need to cut back on whatever detective novels you are reading...
In response to China's 4 Moon goals, president Bush has recommended Outsourcing NASA. The current 4 goals of NASA administrators: 1) Qualify JB weld for in-space repair of foam damaged wing leading edges. 2) Talk to Halliburton about constructing up ground based communications station and alternate shuttle landing site in IRAQ. 3) Do a google search, find out what this MARS thingy is all about. 4) Upload Resume's to monster.com see if China is hiring for space development work.
Ross Youngblood
Germany's autobahn fatality rates are lower than the USA's equivalent, although overall the rates are slightly higher.
The UK's rates are about half those, and one of the lowest in the world. This is attributed to a higher standard of driving and more widespread use of seatbelts and motorcycle helmets.
It may also be the fact that drivers in Northern Europe have to take professional lessons to be licensed and we Americans practically get our licenses out of Cracker Jack boxes.
Plus in the USA you can be a licensed driver in most places at 16 yrs old. Take these variables into account and the numbers say something completely different.
Basically you can use stats to say anything you want.
Four weeks, Twenty papers, that's two dollars
I could level equal charges against the US. 13,000+ shot dead every year, god knows how many more killed on the roads, a welfare system that pales into comparison compared to that of any other developed world nation, a crumbling school system that's badly underfunded yet the US finds it more important to wage war half way around the world.
You might add an enviable employment rate (even in a recession), the best higher education system in the world, one of the highest per capita income rates in the world, high rates of home ownership, high rates of immigration, and a welfare system that pales compared to others in the developed world.
an ill wind that blows no good
Everything I ever needed to know I learned in Kindergarten. The KISS principle, for instance. "Keep It Simple, Stupid!"
In Which People Dream of Artificial Worlds is a chapter from physicist Dr. Robert Park's Book "Voodoo Science: The Road from Foolishness to Fraud". In it, Dr. Park explains how human presence in space (the driving force behind the Apollo missions) was important only as a measure of national power. He explains how the Russians explored the moon to a greater extent and gathered more scientific data through robotic exploration than the US. However, it is the US that has been seen as the 'winner' in the eyes of the world. He also talks about the ISS. How, scientifically, the space station is completely unnecessary. He then gives a brief history of space exploration and some background on proponents of human colonization of space (L5 society). In general the chapter is a collection of his opinions, as a scientist, on how he thinks our country should invest its resources into space research. This is a great book and he covers a lot of topics aside from space exploration that would be of interest to this crowd. Give it a read, he has a way of making a point; "If there was gold for the taking in low-Earth orbit, it would not pay to go get it."
2) something else...
3) Profit!
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
Actually, it seems like the money would be better spent in China, improving the humanitarian and social situation. I'm all for space programs, but a country like China should reconsider its priorities.
Man, you don't get it, do you. Go to any American university. The departments are full of graduate students from other nations, many of which will stay in the US after they get their degrees. For China, this means their brightest minds are drained away into the US. A space program creates a domestic need for PhD's at home. It can build a whole technology sector. PhD's at home can create an intellectual culture to improve the social situation.
Now, China might be thinking narrowly about keeping bright citizens, they might be thinking about building a better domestic science program, they might be thinking of mining the moon (as they actually say). But the results will likely benifit everyone. The "one thing at a time" attitude of China's critics is stupid. They argue that you must first improve the social situation, then set off in search of better science. This isn't how things developed in the West. It went the other way. First child labor and Maxwell's laws, then labor laws and computers.
To drift off topic a bit, this is the same backwards crap that the IMF pushes on developing nations. They tell them to use tight fiscal policy and not spend themselves out of recessions, when just these actions are used by the rich developed nations. What, is Keynsian economics proprietary to the US and Europe?
Use the Firehose to mod down Second Life stories!
I don't care who is going, I think space is so important that if this spurrs anybody else to get into space it's a good thing.
Go China!!!
www.users.wineasy.se/dg/treaties.htm.............. ..6. The Moon Treaty
What is normally refereed to as the Moon Treaty actually has the name "Agreement Governing the Activities of States on the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies"19.
This treaty came into force in 1984, five years after it was unanimously adopted by the U.N. General Assembly and opened for signature. Many countries have, however, decided not to be parties to the Moon Treaty. Sweden is one of them.
The Treaty declares that the Moon and all its natural resources are the "Common Heritage of Mankind", Art. 11 item 1, and that these resources shall be exploited according to an international regime, Art. 11 item 5.20 The idea of a Common Heritage of Mankind was that it would include the fair distribution between all states of the natural resources of the Moon, with particular consideration for the interests of the developing countries. It had even been proposed that the right of ownership of the specimens of minerals and other substances of the Moon should be vested in the United Nations, though a rule of this kind was not included in the Treaty.21
The United States could never agree to rules of this kind and have thus never ratified the Treaty. Since the U.S.A. declared that it would not ratify the Treaty, many other states have also decided not to ratify it, and Sweden is one of those.
The Moon Treaty is only binding for the few countries which have ratified it. Nevertheless, it must be considered binding on others to some extent, especially as to those rules of the Treaty which no one has made any objections about. These can perhaps be said to be part of space law due to consensus in COPUOS and the fact, that the Treaty has entered into force. When drafting new treaties on space law, COPUOS cannot make up rules in conflict with the Moon Treaty, unless the participating states agree, in consensus, that the conflicting rules in the Moon Treaty will be abolished.
I eat my grapes at room temperature, cuz the cold ones hurt my teeth
Hmm, that's strange. I don't seem to remember having a minder or being tailed while there. I was free to drive where ever I wanted. It's one of the most interesting places I've ever been in the world.
Sorry to upset your anti-Chinese conditioning.
I agree that science should not be put on hold. However, you said, "As with NASA (in the past at least)...". I have seen nothing which would lead me to believe that NASA has paid for itself.
... well, 1,777.58 acres worth of it, but I've got a deed to prove it.
So listen up China, India, Brazil, M$/RIAA/SCO Robber-Barons: take one molecule of my helium-3 and I'll slap your asteroids with a lawsuit so fast your heads will be spinning fast enough to establish their own artificial gravity!
"DOWN, DOWN , DOWN!! GO, GO, GO!! MINE, MINE, MINE!! BWAH-HAHAHAHAHA!!!"
-- Daffy Duck
This has to be about the most arrgant statement... Gah!
Say you have someone on financial aid (welfare, what-have-you). They use that money to get some training (instead of buying food). Do you say "Oh! Looks like you don't need my help any more", or do you encourage the efforts, and continue with the assistance with the understanding that the path they are taking might just lead them to reduced (or eliminated) reliance on that assistance in the future?
Bah! Short sighted, narrow minded...
This rant is not aimed at you specifically. Sorry for any offence it may cause.
Goal 5: Profit!
PS: I, for one, welcome our new Chinese Lunar Overlords.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
They wouldn't use nukes. They'd use a mass driver. Any military strategist will tell you that the high ground is the strategic ground.
You can tell a great deal about the character of a man by observing those who hate him.
It's about time someone looked to the sky and thought "I wonder if I could exploit that rock in space instead of ripping minerals from this planet? I wonder if I could generate energy there cheaper than on this rock?"
As far as I am concerned, China is doing on a 2 billion annual budget what the USA should have been continuing 30 years ago. I hope they succeed, and I hope the short-sighted politicians here in the US live long enough to regret China becoming the next big economic powerhouse.
We had our chance, and pissed it away. I am not going to criticize another nation for taking a less than myopic view. Space does solve problems at home, but you have to be able to see the connection.
"Curiosity killed the cat, but for a while I was a suspect."- Steven Wright
Chinese space agecny folks are the only ones that have mastered the art of marketing (and seeding) in that country.
To what inner/greater purpose, I do not understand.
"If I see further, it is because I am surrounded by midgets."
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
If China took down the US flag, I'm sure USA will declare war. Even the UN wouldn't accept it. Many people, including anti-American extradionnaires like me ;), consider the flag to be a cultural artifact. I don't want it taken down by anyone...
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
China blowing money on going to the moon for the purpose of mining is like someone on welfare blowing their checks on cigarettes to recover the trace amounts of minerals in the ashes after they smoke.
Oooohhh...let us eat turtles because they live a long time and we will also live long time! Savages...
Blar.
I'm laughing so hard, that it's difficult to type this. You mean you actually BELIEVE it when Communist China says they are only interested in commercial ventures on the Moon?
You can tell a great deal about the character of a man by observing those who hate him.
China:
1) build spaceships
2) launch humans
3) launch humans to Mars
US:
1) build space ships
2) hire venture capitalists
3) hire managers to impress venture capitalists
4) hire managers to impress managers
5) rebuild space ship different way to impress managers
6) file chapter 11 and close
If we weren't mired down in massive red tape and environmental regulations, perhaps private enterprise here in the West could take a shot at competing with the Chinese government
Yeah the EPA is keeping private business from going to the moon. Give me a break. I think 'zero return for capital expenditure', and 'massive gravitational well' are better explanations for businesses avoiding the moon and deep space for now.
just = (My)Opinion.toCents();
I doubt if they will take down the flag. More probable they will "respectfully visit" an Apollo moon landing site.
The simple fact that they can get there, and the USA cannot, will more than make the point for Chinese superiority.
Well, the masses tend to care. I would also suggest that folks in the rapidly de-industrializing USA can't expect better treatment from China than it gives to their own people.
I bet the Chinese going be the ones who'll send the first person to Mars. They seem determined.
That's no moon, it's a space station!
is that from a book or movie I missed?
The purpose of life is to find the purpose of life.
You haven't seen Star Wars?
What the Economist doesn't say is that nearly all of that $1.8 billion in aid that China receives is in the form of interest bearing loans with conditions attached. E.g. the EU/US/Japan gives China a $300 million loan at 5% interest with the condition that China makes a $1.5 billion order of Airbus/Boeing/Mitsubishi products. Most governments in the industrialized world categorizes such loans as aid to make themselves look altruistic and divert popular attention from the fact that these aid are really nothing more than government subsidies for the big and powerful corporations.
That's no moon, it's a space station!
DeathStar!
Not according to this article dated 12 Nov 2003: http://www.spacedaily.com/2003/031112190119.o85meb 5z.html
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
Also, not the other posters comments on how the "aid" money ends up in the pockets of big business interests ( same with Israels billions ).
Kind Regards
"A few great minds are enough to endow humanity with monstrous power, but a few great hearts are not enough to make us w
NASA did development, but the Physics of Magnetic Resonance was known a long time ago. CAT is Computer Assisted Tomography. The concept is old, but needed to wait until computers were powerful and cheap enough.
Hey, I say, great for China. Obviously I have the same deep concern about their humanitarian issues as everyone else, but this is a step in the right direction. It creates good jobs for Chinese people, points the country more towards success through peaceful economic means rather than Communist/totalitarian means, and helps build their middle class - all good things towards promoting greater tolerance and democracy in their society. Bitch at them to improve on humanitarian issues does nothing. But when they, on their own, start moving towards a modern, peaceful democracy and an educated middle class, that's progress.
:) Of course I think it would be coolER to have an American moonbase, but since America seems to have its head wedged pretty far up its ass when it comes to space exploration, I guess this is the best I can hope for.
Also, I just think it would be really f'ing cool to have a Chinese moonbase up there.
if nothing else comes of this, at least it means we'll be able to get cooler rocket toys at the dollar store!
ha ha
Where's Robin Hood? We could kinda really use him now.
Actually, it seems like the money would be better spent in China, improving the humanitarian and social situation. I'm all for space programs, but a country like China should reconsider its priorities.
Yeah, cause we all know a space program has no positive spin-off effects...
Look at the US if you want examples!
Have you even considered what the space program will do for the chinese economy in general, and the tech-sector in particular?
Sure, china should work on improving the humanitarian and social situation, but that doesn't mean they should do nothing else until they are "done" with that.
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
At planetary scales, solids act like liquids.
That is why all planets are roughly spherical.
(Yes, I know that surface features like mountains exist, but they are so small, compared to the size of a planet as a whole, that the surface of the Earth is smoother than that of a billiard ball would be at the same scale.
And, yes, I know that the Earth bulges out at the equator, but that is due to the Earth's rotation.
A liquid would behave similarly.)
If humans were to place all of their nuclear weapons at one spot on the Moon, at its weakest point, where some fault happened to run deep into the core, and detonated them, what would happen would be that some very small fraction of the Moon's crust would be blasted into space.
Most of it, however, would return to the Moon's surface.
All you have to do is look at the craters pockmarking the Moon's surface (some of them caused by impacts releasing energy many times larger than Mankind's entire nuclear arsenal) to know that it will survive anything that Man can throw at it in the near future.
Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
And without NASA's digital imaging processing, it wouldn't be of much use.
My other SIG is a 9mm.
The simple fact that they can get there, and the USA cannot, will more than make the point for Chinese superiority.
What makes you think USA can't get there? If USA spends 1/10th of what they spend on their imperialistic wars, NASA will be there overnight...
The Chinese citizens don't seem to care much about space. Refer to the recent stories coming out of China about them sending their first human to space. It wasn't a big deal for most of them--many didn't even know of the event. They have bigger problems, such as the massive unemployment due to the economic restructuring.
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
"Say you have someone on financial aid (welfare, what-have-you). They use that money to get some training (instead of buying food)."
Replace "training" with "a Segway" and you'd have the right analogy. The US and Soviet space programs occurred in industrialized countries that had a technology base high enough that the effects of the programs could be felt across the country (for instance, the IC-based computer you're using).
China, on the other hand, is still industrializing. Even now, many Chinese don't know their country has successfully completed their first manned spaceflight because they don't have the reliable communications medium that even a decent postal system could provide. This new push in technology only really benefits the elite few (Marx is spinning in his grave) and only serves as decorative jewelry for the country as a whole.