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Microsoft Defies EU Commission
otahkgeek writes "Wired News is reporting that Microsoft claims that by removing Windows Media Player from Windows, it would be forced to ship a substandard version to European consumers. This is on the heels of a three-day hearing by a European commission to determine the validity of charges that Microsoft illegally abused its power over the home computer market."
The same way NOT including IE in Windows 98+ was impossible?
-1, Flaimbait.
Shipping a substandard OS to European customers? ;)
How is this news? They've been doing that for years.
Guess what, you can't not do what the government of the country you do buissness in tells you to do. Even Microsoft can't get away with this, atleast in the EU. Substandard? Media Player is substandard.
Will the substandard DRM free, anti American version be available in North America for purchase or will I have to pirate a copy.
134340: I am not a number. I am a free planet!
Obviously the EU is gonna loose this battle. If they meddle in the affairs of Microsoft, they might just get themselves bought out. Honestly now, who has more power.. the sissy EU, or the mighty Microsoft! muahaha! Capitalism is Unstoppable!
I don't need a media player with the operating system, just an operating system. That's cheaper, right?
At some point someone is going to have to stand up to them. Being able to dodge bullets wouldn't hurt, but hopefully, whoever finally does won't have to.
First of all, MS can't be saying that it's WMP that's making Windows superior? You've got to be kidding me. Most people don't even use that app for their multimedia needs.
But anyway, I'm not against them shipping a more inferior product... this might be the beginning of the opportunity that alternative OSs have been waiting for.
First Europe... then the world!
Welley Corporation - SLM Scammers
Microsoft claims that by removing Windows Media Player from Windows, it would be forced to ship a substandard version to European consumers.
Is it me or I'm the only one who thinks this is an oxymoron?
R.
Call it what it is: A Feature!
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
I know a lot of /.'s American readers might not care so much, but as a belgian, I'm glad this has finally started. I read a story about this a few days ago, and it was still undecided how MS would proceed. I wonder how the EU will see this in light of the recent warning from america's government about the Shop for Music mess. Feature my arse.
Anyway, we europeans have got to do our part to fight software patents and monopolies, and I'm glad to see the EU might be up to the task.
Maybe this will end the shipping of websites using WMA as a multimedia format.
If it works... dont fix it! This is why MS needs to be put in check.
~ Maintainer of the Skajake Projects
Ever heard of DRM ?
I guess M$ figures that if G.W. Bush can get away with defying the EU (by slapping tarriffs on EU steel, which the WTO has ruled are illegal) then why should B. Gates be able to get away with it?
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
Or put some kind of huge levy on them, like $20 per copy of Windows brought into the country untill the WMP is removed, and ban Microsoft from raising the price (both to consumers and to OEMs) so that they can't pass on the cost. Again, when they start to lose a lot of money, maybe they're realize that something bad WILL happen to them, it's not just a bluff.
Either way, I'd like to see the EU (or ANYONE) just stick it to MS for once to show them they can't keep pushing everyone around. And, if the EU forces someone to offer a "inferior version", shouldn't they be forced to sell that inferior version or NOTHING? Microsoft has called your bluff, so step up to the plate!
At this point, I think that a breakup (into OS, Office, Games, Hardware, and Other) would have made things so much better for us all.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
It's a silly thing to take them to court over. Secret APIs that give them and only themselves an advantage, now there's a better target for courtroom fun!
hmm, if force to ship windows to the EU w/o WMP, I wonder if they could just put WMP into the Windows Critical updates packages.
and install it anyway?
I do suppose that kinda tatic would make the EU even Madder?
actually I am happy to see you, however that is in fact a banana in my pocket.
So what exactly isn't an OS supposed to do? This argument could be made for ANYTHING MS wanted to put into Windows.
Internet browsing, function.
Media player, function.
Word & speadsheet processing, function.
Image editing, function.
Developer IDE, function.
Cost of OS, $400.
I know this goes against the grain of what most Slashdotters believe, but Microsoft is not a monopoly. A monopoly is a company that gets exclusive market rights from the government. The US Postal Service is a monopoly, because (IIRC) the US government forbids anyone from charging lower postage for first class mail within the US, for example.
If you don't like IE, use Netscape or Opera or lynx or whatever. If you don't like Windows, use Linux or BSD or HURD or BeOS or MacOS or...
If you don't like Windows Media Player, use Winamp or RealPlayer or Quicktime or whatever you want.
Customers who aren't satisfied with Microsoft don't sue them. They simply switch to a better solution. Microsoft simply does not have the legal ability to force alternatives out of existence. They are not a legal monopoly.
I wish the governments of the world would get that already, and stop wasting our tax money on lawyers. And stop wasting our tax money on Microsoft licenses too, whose prices are inflated by Microsoft's legal fees.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, switch to open-source software and stop being so sue-happy. Stupid governments.
I claim first use of "Error No. 0B" - or "No. 0B error." It'll be the new ID 10T!
True - however, I'm of the belief that it is M$'s software - and no one should tell them how & what to bundle with it!
They have a right to bundle their software as they see fit....
--dukeluke
Windows just like DOS is a Operating System OS. That's all it should do. Provide a platform to run ANY program you wish to run on it.
Required programs should consist of basic grapics and network drivers that are compatible with almost everything. Some generic browser that's not intergrated into the entire system to allow one to select their own browser.
Then it can also provide links to obtain optimized drivers from each vendor that your PC runs from. Or download them itself and install as necessary.
Either way. Internet Explorer and WMP through licensing and other agreements have become vital and critical portions of other systems. There are whole groups of banks who will not allow you to conduct transactions from any other browser other than IE and there are tons of media houses that will not let you access it without IE AND WMP.
Of course some would argue that some sites are RA and Quicktime only. So I'd say force them to allow others to view their encoded content also and let them focus on the encoding part not the consumer part.
These are the same tactics being employed by many companies such as a printer shop that has elevated USB cables becuase the printer company does not include a USB cable most times. Or Local Number Portability. Think you're using that GSM phone on a CDMA network?
When was the last time you used a standard set of tools on your car or truck without having to have some special star socket to finish the job.
You can all whine and point the finger at MS but these issues surround your daily life. How bad does it have to get before you stand up and tell your politicans were tired of it. I sure hope it's not to the point where you cant use X toilet paper with Y toilet without it refusing to flush.
Imagine I was a crooked monopolist. Imagine, too,that I was Microsoft. But I repeat myself.
Seriously, can Microsoft sell a substandard version of a substandard product?
Bill really is looking out for the customers. You see, he feels hurt that he'd be forced to give them a product that would do anything less than completely lock out all of those....."undesirable" programs.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
bha mplayer is the greatest player on the earth
wmp != mplayer
nag about wmp all you want but why bitch about mplayer micrsoft dosent make it or ship it
Here ya go.
Frankly, I don't care what media player is included with the OS, so long as one is included at all. If the EU forces Microsoft to un-bundle WMP, I hope it'll force it to include some other media player. Releasing an OS today without media playback capabilities is ridiculous.
I know it's easy enough to go download your latest copy of winamp or whatever, but frankly - there are a lot of people out there, that wouldn't know the first place to look, and will be left wondering why nothing happens when they double click on their *.mp3 file.
This is horrible, as a user I am doubtfull of what this means for the DRM I was so looking forward to and the universal acceptance of IE/WMP as the de facto standard for all streaming media!!
</sarcasm>
And with iTunes getting hotter and hotter each week, this might actually do something to level the playing field. Unlike here in the states where they were punished with a fat Gov't education account. Damaging who else, but their competitor, Apple Computer Inc. who had until recently been a big player in Education.
So how hard is it to renounce my unwanted US citizenship and get a shiny new citizenship in say, any member nation of the EU, where the gov't seems less tolatarian and dare I say sane?
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
Where's Keanu Reeves when you need him?
Like they say: A computer without Windows Media Player is like a dog without a brick tied to its head.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
That being the case, how many here think the EU will actually bother to stand up to Microsoft in the end? My bet is that the EU will continue to make noise about Microsoft until Microsoft pays them off (quietly, behind the scenes, of course), at which point the EU will quietly decide not to "go forward" with any sort of real action against Microsoft. At most, the EU will probably give Microsoft a good wrist-slapping ("Stop, or I shall say 'stop' again!").
Only if a more powerful multinational corporation attempts to influence the EU against Microsoft will the EU really do anything.
Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
So linux distros aren't going to be allowed to ship xmms, or do we need to wait until Linux is a monopoly.
The fact is MS is right, shipping an OS without a media player is substandard. When you install a modern OS, you expect a media player to come with it. The problem isn't forcing people to use Windows Media Player, the problem is they are leveraging their monopoly on desktops to impose their proprietary codec as a defacto standard thus forcing everyone who wants to sell multimedia related stuff for the MS platform to pay them royalties to support that standard.
... sam thing with Office. I don't mind if you use it but I shouldn't be forced to use it as well to read your documents!
They don't make money with WMP, they make money with third parties having to support the MS codec since that's what everyone uses on their desktop. That's what is illegal forcing a proprietary codec down everyone's throath!
If Microsoft actually defies the EU commision and refuses to remove MediaPlayer I would be totally interested as to what the EU would do. They would fine Microsoft but that is probably the least of Microsoft's worries, but would they actually go as far as forbidding the sale of Windows until this was cleared up? I doubt it because Windows is used by the vast majority of businesses in Europe where it has much the same dominant share as in the USA and the business lobby is as strong in the EU as it is in the US and they would protest loudly at any such moves.
I see that Microsoft probably knows this and would almost certainly start a huge PR campaign all over Europe to organise protest in support of Microsoft "innovation". Coupled to this the fact that the only slightly possible x86 alternative, SuSE, has just sold its soul to Novell, and you have no real alternative if Microsoft just decides to be stubborn.
I just don't see much that the EU can really do apart from mandating open source in all official areas, such as universities, governments etc in future in order to break Microsoft's lock-in.
The whole point behind getting them to ship the OS without a "built-in" media player, or whatever else, is that the whole thing would be substandard.
Honestly, how many people would go down to the store and buy windows media player if MS had to retail it just like other player's have to (or at least theoretically have to).
If it's so critical for them to ship the media player attached at the hip to the OS then the EU should make them a deal.
The EU should say, "Ok you can ship the OS with the media player embedded, but for that privlege we require you to ship MS Office embedded in the OS and MS Flight Simulator embedded in the OS. I.E. they would loose a lot of profits, hit them where it hurts.
Hey, anything else would be substandard, right?
Caution: Contents under pressure
You mean Windows ME.
sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.
We need a new software program that does the following the following for MS Windows:
Removes IE and outlook express then installs Mozilla
Removes WMP then installs Winamp
Removes wordpad then installs Open Office
Removes paint and imaging and installs Gimp
Then change the desktop to look alot like kde, this would help people move over to linux.
(Popup ads and banners could say "Your software sucks, UPGRADE to open source today!")
On the next release of windows, Website that support Linux and the FSF, OSI etc... could release web advertisments with the motto: "don't waste 300 dollars on the new Windows, download for Linux free or buy Linux for the cost of the CD."
I couldn't give two hoots about Real to be honest. Their product has always been substandard and intensely irritating. What I am concerned about is that by muscling the competition out that MSFT get to set the standards for file formats, network protocols etc. This is far more lucrative to them, and has far more potential to limit our choices as users. It certainly won't be favourable to our pocket books.
So what they're saying is that if they have to uncouple WMP from windows, then they will have to ship a substandard version, just like everybody else who doesn't have access to the internal working of Windows.
Isn't this exactly what the whole thing is about???
Of course they have a right to bundle what they want with their software. Thats really a non-issue. What is the issue is that Microsoft wires these things into their OS so there is no way to uninstall.
Isn't a butterfly a bug?
Most appropriate ad campaign I've seen in years. Must be a Mac-powered ad agency.
Faith is the very antithesis of reason, injudiciousness a critical component of spiritual devotion. Jon Krakauer
Besides, the closest competition that the article mentions, RealPlayer, has constantly been flamed as bloated spyware. What's the difference between WMP and RP? Choice? I can choose to load up IE (or Opera, or Firebird, or Lynx W32) and download a different media player.
If the EU forces MS to take out WMP, then they should also remove Notepad, Calculator, MS Paint, Address Book, Hyperterminal... the list goes on.
What MS could do instead: ship with a non-WMP Windows version, then ask the user every day if they'd like to update their computer to include WMP.
[__] No thanks, go away
[__] Yes please!
Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
What if it is obnoxious-Ware (tm) supremo RealPlayer?
Still think that would be good? Shutter!
Help fight continental drift.
...to drive the Europeans into the open and waiting arms of Linux, BSD, and the likes? Who in the world at MS was responsible for making this "threat?"
Shareholders must be loving this (not).
"I might have made a tactical error in not going to a physician for 20 years." -- Warren Zevon
Because its head was nailed to the floor!!!
Since it will have a "feature" missing, does this mean it will cost less?
Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
Ironically, tonight I moved a harddrive from one computer to another and some of the music files were encoded as WMP's (some tests I did for audio quality comparison). As soon as I tried to play one the web browser popped up asking me if I wanted to migrate my DRM license? Huh? What? DRM license? Microsoft is telling me a need a license to listen to my own stuff? Thanks for telling me after I take everything apart.
Believe me, you aren't missing anything by not using Windows Media Player. Use Realplayer, Winamp, Musicmatch and don't save anything in a proprietary Microsoft format.
The MS threat is real. They aren't happy just monopolizing the desktop market, they want to control all your content as well. I am glad Europe has the fortitude to stand up to them. The US government just totally caved.
It's bad news for anyone who owns a business (other than Real) and does not want the Government to tell them what to do.
No reason to lie.
American /. reader here! Now no offense intended, but can the ministers of the EU be bought or threatened? American Justices are up for sale, it seems.
It warmed the cockles of my part-German heart when Munchen told MS to shove it, I just hope that the whole of the EU has the moxie to stand up to BillyG.
Your leaders showed backbone against Prez Bush when Saddam owed you Billions. But having the backbone to do what is right for their people and the world when the real "Great Satan" is offering billions to those those same leaders is quite another.
People of the European Union, Reagan told Gorbachev to "tear down this wall!" Now it is your turn to say: "Mr Gates: Tear down this Monopoly!"
Stop the Slashdot effect! Don't read the articles!
In this day and age multimedia is pretty standard. If help files and introductions require movies, how can Microsoft play them if they aren't part of the OS?
Likewise if they go after Microsoft on this one they'd have to be fair and do the same with Apple.
Now if they required Microsoft to pre-install Quicktime, RealOne, and iTunes along with Windows Media Player I could see it. But asking them to remove it seems difficult to justify.
OH! I thought that was, Microsoft Defiles EU... but then I think it's the same thing in the end; whatchadoin?
.
The EU should be cracking down on Linux distributions as well. They bundle more applicatioins with their operating system than Microsoft do.
The same goes for Apple. Their notepad program can even open word files.
It would actually be a good thing for the European economy if MS pulled out of Europe.
If all of the computers need to be switched over, they aren't going to go to North American or Asian companies, they'll invest in the local european companies that will localize Linux to that particular area. We'd be talking about potentially billions of Euro's poured into the Linux industry in europe.
Nope only for anyone who owns an illegal monopoly and wants to use it to gain yet more monopolies.
So the answer is to take out the default- and make the 99% go looking for an answer?
And that is progress...?
No reason to lie.
Cool, it's a shell script troll!
Someone send me the source code!
entee
AFAIK there is no easy way to uninstall WMP from windows, is the Apple media player (quicktime?) easy to uninstall?
It is truly hypocritical, how Microsoft comments about how it's *free* version of a media player has begun beating the paints off the other guys who are trying to make money off their RealPlayer.
Give it away for free, that's the key part isn't it. A company can't really compete with a free product especially when it is integrated with the OS.
Microsoft shouldn't really complain about the free software model being somehow destructive to it's model, now should it? After all, that is exactly what it is doing to other companies.
Is it not?
There is no way MS will pull out of Europe. If they did, non Windows and non MS-Office would reach critical mass in a large part of the world. That would be a disaster.
If that happened we would have side by side competition of Office Suits and OSes where we would compare products and prices and choose. There is no way Microsoft would let that happen if they could stop it.
Religion is the main cause of atheism.
Maybe you should learn how to speak Engli$h!
Those "features" should, however, be optional.
Completely removing Windows Media Player and Internet Explorer is going a little too far. They should just implement some of the earlier suggestions in the U.S. trials by making each of those "features" an optional install at the BEGINNING of the install process. Have a Customize button just like in Mac OS that lets you choose which features you want to have installed on the OS.
I think the difference between an Application and an OS feature for Microsoft is whether or not those "features" are available for other operating systems. For example, Windows Media Player should not be a feature because it's a full fledged application for Mac OS. Likewise with Microsoft Office and Internet Explorer (though Microsoft could get away with Explorer still since they no longer offer it for Mac OS.)
I find it irksome that when it comes to security Microsoft likes to point out the distinctions between "features" and OS when considering a security hole. If there's a security problem with Internet Explorer, they don't call it Windows, they make sure everyone knows it's just Internet Explorer and not the "OS". Likewise if there's a problem with Windows, it has nothing to do with Internet Explorer, Windows Media Player, etc.
So if Microsoft likes to refer to these "features" as separate entities in relation to security, then they should be treated as such and made removable during installation.
If there was just then windoze as os should be banned.
Lets go over this one last time-- YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BUY WINDOWS. MICROSOFT CAN INCLUDE ANY FEATURES IT DAMN WELL SEES FIT IN ITS OWN PRODUCT. Yes, yes... We know they were engaged in anti-competitive practices, but that really doesn't have a thing to do with this. Exactly which media alternative have they been supressing with this one? I know, winamp, right?
No, lets look at it from a different angle. Such as this one.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
"If it works..."
And there's the rub.
If they're that dumb, how'd they get the mp3 in the first place then???
Why do you care whether WMP or IE is there? Do you really need those 20 megabytes of disk space?
I'm just curious... I mean, Windows has ALWAYS had little add-on programs that were part of the system and weren't easy to uninstall. Why is this any different? Are they preventing you from using your computer somehow?
You have to look up the definition of "substandard". Or are you an expert on DRM and its alternatives?
Substandard does not mean undersirable.
MS can argue all they want about bundling IE with windows for all I care, But an email client? Outlook Express.
Where are the lawsuits, the lack of choice that it causes, the competition that is suffering? Why doesn't anyone care about outlook express?
Im a gamer, not a grammer major. This post is full of spelling and grammer mistakes.
I wonder if the EU has thought of just including MS products in the 100% tariffs category (along with things like sunglasses and motorbikes) that they are allowed (by the WTO) to impose on imports from the US as a retalitory measure to the illegal US steel tariffs. Come to think of it, weren't countries like Japan, China, Korea, Australia as well as a host of others also part of the WTO judgement (on the side of the EU) as well?
So Dubya, keep those illegal steel tariffs! Remember you need to win votes in steel producing states in the next election!
Poster who claims that all non-governmental monopolies are not monopolies, clearly is unfamiliar with both law and history. Please read up on the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Or for even more fun, the Standard Oil Trust, which was certainly the Mother of all trusts, and mother of monopolies, and the backlash against which, by T. Roosevelt amongst others, is the backdrop to all modern discussions of the subject.
All you Windows Haters out there better wake the fuck up and realize Microsoft has won.
Won what ? Was there a contest to begin with ?
I could win every contest if i bought out the judges too.
When will governments learn? Just as the US government crippled its antitrust case against microsoft by focusing on bundling rather than on Microsoft's contracts with OEMs, the European Union is making the same mistake. It's not the bundling that's the problem, it's Microsoft's stranglehold over the OEM market that's the problem. Address that instead of forcing them to remove a useful part of the Windows bundle.
That said, I do wish that governments would do something about preserving fair use in a world full of DRM software. While Windows Media Player may itself contribute to restrictions on fair use, it is by no means the only mechanism - nor even the primary mechanism - through which DRM content will be delivered. DRM is a great deal more dangerous than the bundling of media player software. The EU makes a big fuss about Windows Media Player, but what are they doing to mitigate the negative effects of DRM? Nothing at all.
"In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
There are times when I wish we could mod stories down, so that stories like this could be killed. For anyone that reads the article, it talks about what MS told the EU about what they insist are the ramifications of removing WMP from Windows, but the title is "Microsoft Defies EU Commission". Please tell me where it states that MS isn't complying with the EU, or otherwise doing something that is defying the EU(other than the monopoly issue at hand). This is a disagreement with the EU, perhaps even a strong one, but for MS to defy the EU they must either act when they shouldn't, or not act when they should; you can't defy the EU when the action in question never left the proposal stage.
Seems like yesterday this was Internet Explorer.
All that software that would need replacing like Quake 3 and madden football.
How about all that hardware linux can't run. A whole bunch.......NOT.
Give me a break.
Who modded you as interesting.
He atleast knows current events.
It will be interesting to see what the US corporate/republican/microsoft administration will say if the EU takes the hard line against them.
Also funny about the tariffs is that Bush was all to happy throwing away all those IT jobs to india but helping out the steel industry. Was it for votes in key states ?
Why can't Microsoft choose what software they want bundled with their OS? After all, it is their OS, as they own the copyright. If you don't like what is included, simply delete it or don't use it-- or don't buy Windows. KaZaA, for example, is filesharing BUT has mp3 playing and movie playing built in. Should KaZaA be restricted to only filesharing? I agree, they are "features". Maybe not of the best quality, but they are "features" of windows nevertheless. Maybe I'm wrong.
---
Never criticize religion on Slashdot. You will be modded down for "Troll" no matter how factual it is.
Don't defy the EU, they might do nothing, just like they always do.
Yes, yes... We know they were engaged in anti-competitive practices, but that really doesn't have a thing to do with this.
Yes, it does. If you use your car as a weapon, you get your driver's license suspended. If MS used bundling of WMP as a weapon against Real, then they should lose the right to bundle WMP with Windows. Anyone can include any features they want in any product until that feature is used to illegally damage a competitor, in which case the EU would right to order the feature removed.
Exactly which media alternative have they been supressing with this one? I know, winamp, right?
RTFA
I'm sure this will get modded down as a troll, but I feel I must clear my chest. I say bravo to Microsoft for giving them the finger. You buy the software "as is". Windows comes with Internet Explorer, Outbreak Express, and the Win Media Player - for everyone. That's the way it is. They are not in the business of customizing their operating system for certain audiences. It is my uderstanding that the EU sees WMP as a threat to other multimedia technologies, but I don't think they should force MS to remove their application as a solution. Truth of the matter is you don't see anyone jumping on Apple's case for having built-in web, email, and multimedia. If roles were reversed, and everybody used a Mac, would the EU be telling Apple that they should unbundle Quicktime with their os due to monopolistic practices?? I feel the Union is overstepping its boundries... I don't belive that Microsoft has a superior product with WMP, and I believe their response to the EU was a nice way of saying, "screw off, we're not going to reengineer our crap!" And honestly people, how many times have you wanted to say that yourself?
I planned on inserting something witty here but never got around to it.
it's amazing how clearly you've thought through all the issues here. You must be some sort of genius.
How we know is more important than what we know.
Put all M$ products in the public domain. Since anyone can do anything with things in the public domain, nobody that needs M$ products would suffer, but M$ would.
Think about it: anyone could redistrobute M$ stuff, anyone could reverse engineer any DRM scheems that M$ does, and projects like WINE would benefit greatly. Yes, that would still be illegal in the US. Still, doing so could devestate M$.
#include "sig.h"
... you remember? that thing called Quicktime that come bundled with a OS called OS X?
> Windows just like DOS is a Operating System OS.
> That's all it should do. Provide a platform to
> run ANY program you wish to run on it.
I 100% agree with you on your first statement!
> Required programs should consist of basic
> grapics and network drivers that are compatible
> with almost everything. Some generic browser
> that's not intergrated into the entire system
> to allow one to select their own browser.
Fault #1: WRONG! An OS should be, as you mentioned before, 'a platform' that let ANY program you wish to run on it, and work with the other programs that you wish to run on it. It provides a user interface for you to interact with it. It provides a platform to share resources, schedule tasks and get things done. 'Some generic browser' was an MS-concept since Windows 98 to merge File Manager to a Web Browser. To have a presentation manager type of interface, does not have to have 'Some generic browser' that is part of the OS or is a 'required program'!
> Then it can also provide links to obtain
> optimized drivers from each vendor that your
> PC runs from. Or download them itself and
> install as necessary.
Fault #2: You don't have to have a 'generic browser' to provide links to obtain optimized drivers, get it yourself and install. In fact, it doesn't even have to be a link, or have to be downloaded.
By the way, why do we have to think within the framework of the existing Internet infrastructure when we referring to OS? What was the state of Internet 10 years ago? Was that the same as now? Should we safely assumed that it'll be like that 10 years from now?
> Either way. Internet Explorer and WMP through
> licensing and other agreements have become
> vital and critical portions of other systems.
Fault #3: I don't know how you could come up with the conclusion like that. As you said before Windows should just be an OS. So, an OS should not made anything application that run on that OS to be vital and critical in the first place! It's a wrong approach, can't you see?
In my opinion, an OS should mind its own business for provide as secured an OS can provided as can be, and the added security, like what the Longhorn offered, should be an added-in feature in the OS that if not necessary, can be taken out from the OS altogether!
I can't think of a reason why it couldn't be done in this way (instead of the Longhorn way) or by doing that make the OS less secured. If you opt for more security, I can't see any reason why can't the security options/module/key/whatever be able to be incorporated to the Kernel to dead. To me, if they're planning to do that in scretch, it would even be easiler...
Just my 0.02
does the EU have a problem? If "most people" do not use WMP, how does MS have a monopoly there?
I have a Mac, a Red Hat box and a Windows XP box. Each runs a different default media player and browser and none of them was something I explicitly asked for, except in Red Hat where I did ask for a browser and was given one.
Who cares? None of the browser companies stood a chance in hell at actually making any money and neither does Real, the only really commercial media player.
Besides, can anyone make any real use of an OS without these things built-in? What we need is a common set of standards that all of the browsers and media players can adhere to so that it doesn't matter WHAT OS we use.
Oh, wait...
"You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake."...Tyler Durden
According to the story, the commission will reach a decision "by June of 2004", after which it may go to court. By then the pc-media-player wars will be over and MS will have destroyed another category of software.
To sleep, perchance to dream
... so I'll say it really slowly. Microsoft ... is ... a ... monopoly. They ... have ... ninety ... percent ... of ... the ... market. Consumers ... don't ... have ... a ... choice. That's ... why ... moron.
Piss off the Europeans enough and they'd simply do what they did to the drug companies and threaten to bust their patents. Oh, you know there had to be a reason other countries sell the same drugs at a fraction of the price in other countries. We can't win an economic sanction war against the EU.
The Europeans will see this as an opportunity to hit back at M$ and snub the US in one motion. I wouldn't expect them to back down. In fact, M$'s comments were the worst possible thing they could've said. It backs up European fears about being subject to an American monopoly and gives them bad Bush flashbacks. This was sort of the coporate version of the "bring 'em on" comment.
Not only would I be surprised if they back down on sanctions, but I'd expect them to start funding development of a new EuroLinux alternative, ala Airbus.
I can sometimes see why they think we're a bunch of wankers over here when you look at things from their perspective.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
I'm so glad that an ignoramus like you wasn't in charge of keeping other monopolies from forming. We would have the economy of Indonesia today.
Hard to say. One thing that must be remembered is that MS is a US monopoly that is also trying to leverage its monopoly to the detriment of several large European software companies.
MS certainly will not get the same level of sympathy from the EU commission that they have gotten from the US Justice system.
"We will conform to the best compatible set of HTML for IE and support other browsers secondly. I dont care if it's a standard 98% of our visitors use IE and that's what we will focus on."
:)
Tell me that wouldnt be the case if IE was still just a download.
What's even more sick is I cant for the life of me remember what I surfed the web with before IE. IE Install Win 3.11 where did I get Netscape from
Probably was the ISP software CD's that was the usual method for the longest time.
I was never against IE back in the day when you had to download it. But when I saw what bundling your own software with your own OS does to other companies it's bad. Those companies employeed coders, VIP's, Janitors, secretaries. I'm sure there was room for both browsers but now there's just IE..
Just assuming MS kept up everything I'm sure they'd shut down more companies. Like RAV antivirus which supported Linux mail servers. MS buys them and will bundle a AV solution with Windows so what's Norton, Pcillin, or Mcafee going to do to compete. 90% of consumers will not go for something else if they already have something that does the job.
Most replies about getting someone to quit using Outlook Express is why? It works fine and came with it. Even the fact that the other software is free they are reluctant to move becuase this came with the system.
Why was post moderated to troll.
Whoever moderated me down should be metamoderated.
thank you.
Why not just ship windows with a selection of media players installed allong with windows media player?
All misspellings and grammatical errors in the above post are intentional and part of my artistic expression.
However, the recent developments with RH and Novell has put the brakes on in my technology consulting business. SMB's don't want products that won't be supported and RH's announce made many loyal users from many years begin to look else where. The general opinion I got from businesses that already used Linux, "Oh well, we still have SuSE" only to have the next day's tech headline read, "Novell buys SuSE". Now it is wait and see with many system admins now saying and doing, "Well I think its about we go to BSD." What has happened in the last two weeks has halted Linux's chances of being adopted widely in the US by companies. Many were just now ready to get their feet wet and more willing to take the plunge. The two companies I helped migrate saw sugnifcate cost savings. They had been using Linux on their own on servers for a couple years and already had the in house staff to manage the desktops. Most SMB's don't.
I personally think of Linux as "training wheels for unix" much like AOL is training wheels for the Internet. I used it to grasp the world of *iux and then quickly make the jump to FreeBSD for a server OS and then OS X for desktop. I have my reasons: cvsup, ports tree, only 1 FreeBSD flavor, etc, but for most businesses, Linux is now on my "wait and see list". Now we do have people needed application specfic OS's, like for Kiosk systems, and Linux is perfect for that, like the Firecast OS for kiosks, and embedded devices. This is where Linux shines in my book, but as a desktop, sorry Apple beat them. As a server, FreeBSD wins in my book again.
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
I love a good game of chicken. What happens if sometime soon (say, about the beginning of next month), MS says, "Fine, we're not doing business in Europe. Sales of all MS products stop on Monday." And as of that Monday, you can't buy a new PC with Windows in Europe, or import one, and you can't buy a copy of Office. Yes, it would hurt MS, but they've got $49B US in the bank. How long can the EU antitrust commission hold out when all of those consumers, both private and corporate, scream?
It's one thing to carefully plan and execute a migration away from MS -- it's quite another to be forced to start such a migration on a few days' notice.
I'm not sure about anti-American, but Knoppix is not hard to find in the US, yet. You don't need to break any laws to download and run it either, yet.
Oh yeah, "Digital Rights Management" is un-American. It gimps my press and that violates the First Amendment to the Constitution, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." When someone else has control of what files can and can't be coppied or created on my primary writng instrument, I have no free press, speech or ability to petition my government. If I'm unable to share files from my primary writing instrument, I'm effectively forbiden to publish. Nothing short of universal censorship will make DRM work and nothing could be less American than that.
Microsoft is not just an embarasement to the technical community, they are an embarasement to all of us.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
You're cynical.
You're right, but it doesn't matter. This is Slashdot, and he's just trying to be modded "Funny". That's really all that a lot of the posts here are about.
And the irony is *parent* post gets +1 Funny, not +1 Insightful.
Actually, it's a pleonasm.
Surely, it's a tautology?
Quick, someone forward this to someone on the EU commission:
The EU needs to demand that since microsoft is now a shared source company, that they escrow the current code, along with the new code once the media player is removed.
This will allow the EU to parse the code to check for crippling, like microsoft did with the browser in the US.
The EU needs to add a treble damages consequence to the settlement/case, where any damages/fines that microsoft is required to pay will automatically, without appeal, be tripled if it is discovered that they changed or set up the code to cripple the os in any way if the media player is removed.
Then the EU needs to go back and take another look at the browser, and market share. And then force them to separate the browser from the os.
Then the EU needs to go back and demand that microsoft will be fined heavily if Steve Ballmer ever makes another presentation with him bouncing across stage screaming like an idiot.
Then the EU needs to go back and...
The ONLY reason to use M$ in the first place is their nasty hardware lock that prevents hardware makers from producing anything that works with other platorms. You use it for it's half assed ability to work sound cards, DVD players, firewire devices, crapy USB cameras and such. So what are you left with if M$ kills off Macromedia, Real and even ogg tools? Crap, that's what.
Yeah, Media player sucks big time. It's got awful quality, crashes and does not even recognize Microsoft's own older avi formats. What could be crappier than that? Oh yeah, M$'s proven spying where they record every song you listen to and movie you view for later retrieval. It's as ugly bloated and butty as M$ Word is as a text editor. But quality issues are a side show.
If the EU had any brains, they'd slap enourmous tarrifs on M$ junk and work on develping their own media. Microsoft will lock out all but the highest bidders from digital media and they all have offices in Holywood. Digital media is the future of mass communication. If the EU does not get around monopoly formats, they can forget preserving their cultures and not even think about projecting their ideas elsewhere. If they consider to support M$ in their countries, they will find themselves DRM'd into oblivion. M$ is funding it's expansion into media by monpoly rents and should be taxed for it, if not outright banned. It's the future of ideas they are looking at, and it's more improtant than any material goods. The EU has plenty of free alternatives to chose from and they should support them.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
....emacs is an editor too - tell the truth!
Sera
Slashdot, where armchair scientists get shouted down and armchair theologians get modded up.
No really.
The EU Commission is just as for sale as Washington DC is as far as I can tell.
BillG will have no trouble buying off the necessary number of members
Saddam was able to by off Germany and France's political elites for years.
Why couldn't Billg By off the EU Commision?
As you can see I don't care about my karma.
Does this whole thing sound similar to anyone??
1st the browser issue, now its the media player, next it will be anti-virus, DRM, object file system, built-in database, online shopping ID, MSHTML, MSPDF, MSFLASH, and application certificate systems....etc...
Sooner or later they will not be able to buy out a government, but then, they can just punish smaller countries...
Why not just call them Microsoft OS and leave it at that. Then we just fork over thousands for our "customized" model of windows, like we do with our cars. At least I'll not have bunch of their products to deal with; its all being integrated into 1 thing. Its like if they can't make money with it, put it into the OS so nobody else can either.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
it's nimo actually
t ml
click here to download it or for you people that dont' like hyperlinks:
http://www.divx-digest.com/software/nimo_pack.h
Click on the IE icon. Hit the delete button. Click yes. Empty the trash. IE = gone.
Oh, you want to delete the shared library too? Go to windows\system32, find mshtml.dll. Delete it.
I just hope you don't expect explorer (not ie, the desktop) to work, or any help files to work, or anything else which uses that particular shared library to render html...
Honestly, do you really think it was stupid idea to take a whole bunch of applications which render html and create a single shared library that they all use?
try this:
you can uninstall xmms COMPLETELY
there are many other's that COME WITH THE DISTRO
how's that for an argument?
You'd think that after getting hit by TP's hammer they'd be smarter, but when it comes to arrogant stupidity, MS wear the crown.
How long are governments going to pursue this endless litigation of companies who have monopolistic practices? Have we not learned anything from the IBM anti-trust lawsuit which went on for 13 years and ended with a hung jury? If Microsoft is truly producing an inferior product then in time it will get replaced by something better. However, nobody in this forum can really claim that linux is ready to be used by the average home consumer. So in short the US government as well as the EU should stop wasting their money and let the natural forces of competition weather away Microsoft's market position.
PS. If dealing with Microsoft as a monopoly is absolutly necessary there are better ways than breaking it up.
Funny indeed. Over here that gets parsed as, "We welcome a trade war with the United States. Now that we've negotiated agreements advantagious to our interests we would like to throw all of those gains away, particularly during the term of a less than sympathetic US administration, who's presence we'd all but assure until 2008 and perhaps beyond."
I would love to see the French and German economies struggle in a trade war. Those EU fines would be QUITE amusing I'm sure. Not to mention the strikes, oh the strikes.... HAhahahahahahAHAHAHAHA.
At this point, giving MS what it "wants" will only hurt it faster...because the management really doesn't get it. We need to get the govts to limit MS buying up stuff and destroying other industries rather than worring about PCs...that and keep them from passing the dreaded laws to protect their dead business model!
Here, my friend, you're wrong. As stated by EFFI (EFF's Finnish subdiary) and others, the European version of the DMCA (in its current state) is much less draconian than the "original" US version that inspired it thanks to a good number of restrictive amendments and conditions placed in the EU hearing(s).
______________
OTTERS RULE.
I've browsed the numerous posts on the subject, and I've seen many reactions that emphasize the fact that EU is repeating the US government mistakes, that lawsuits suck etc.
/. readers at the same moment as it is to MS leaders ? EU and MS are by now negotiating around the terms of an agreement, because the agreement has no importance. What is important here is to say ; hey MS, we're considering other way to comprehend the computer world. This is a signal, sent to both MS and newspaper readers. It doesn't mean a clash, it doesn't mean a shift. It means a possibility that MS may -or may not- be able to tackle well. Shifting to another possibility (ie Linux or similar) is a very expensive and brain-sucking thing to do, so the EU is considering in which ways they could accept to stay in a under-efficient situation.
/.ers : there are some people that want their computer to work, pure and simple. It took two months to my mother to understand where the power button was ; she's far from being stupid, but she is not interested in computer stuff, and that's it. So, for her, Microsoft is a fucking monopoly, mainly because all the conditions for making it a practical (by opposition to a theorical one) one are here. I'm not going to enter the details, but just for the anecdote, you'll find that many reports describing the computer world as obscure and te
So far, readers should consider giving some original responses, just as they ask for original tackling of the MS issue.
I'd like you to think about another way of considering the problem. The main question is : why did the EU do that ? Why did they do it *that* way and not another ?
It is a bit of a political thinking. I've red that the EU would suffer massive damage if they filed a too blunt lawsuit against MS. I've red that the WMP thing was a pretext to send a signal to Microsoft. I've red that the Echelon program was used sometimes through MS products. All these statements were in my mind since some time, and I think that, with a bit of political understanding of the situation, one can draw some different conclusions than the average "it means nothing" ones.
First of all, do you really think that EU political leaders are that stupid ? We've all seen that there was a study advising to bypass Windows and change to Linux. And one of the greatest advantage (among too much drawbacks) of the EU is that many voices are taken into account when a decision is made.
So my point is that EU policy-makers were in this state of mind : we may consider a shifting in our computer policy, but for that we need to make it clear, just because MS may answer our needs correctly. I think that this lawsuit is a part of this movement.
But the EU can't afford to 'defy' MS, because retaliation would be a disaster, in any form (withdrawal of software, intensifying of industrial-spying, which stays a hot issue between EU and the US, I trust MS to find some awkward ways to do it).
Furthermore, do you think that such a lawsuit is revealed to
Taken form this perspective, the EU action means something. And it means a lot ; the way it has been offered to MS is all the same that the recent dispute between US/MS, but the underlying message is all the more different. This is *diplomacy*.
The answer of Microsoft is elusive, for it doesn't say yes or no. It says, basically, piss off, which is very different from a simple no. We just be aware that much things that happen on that level are unknown. Things keep being interesting.
Last but not least, I've red a post saying that MS was not a monopoly. In fact, it was said that is was not a *legal* monopoly. I'd like the writer to understand that reality has not been embedded in an economics book yet. MS, de facto, *is* a monopoly, because the very proper definition of a monopoly implies choice. But not the choice to change the product after you were compelled to use it to understand how your fucking computer work. You may realize that the vast majority of people using computers are not
Let's overcome our weakness.
It implies that it was written to some standard in the first place.
--
Actually the EU has a history of taking quite unexpected steps against companies or governments that do not comply with its regulations. It may be very boring and sometimes hard to follow, but the EU (both as an organization and as a trade block) is a true powerhouse when it comes to economics that does not think lightly of splitting up companies, refusing mergers, forcing governments to change centuries old judicial procedures, ban politically sensitive subsidies et cetera. If they set their minds to it, Microsoft may be in for a bigger fight than they were in the United States.
Speaking-o which, any new news on that rumour that Apple were going to port the OSX gui to run on the x86 version of Darwin?
I have no particular motivation to change to the Macintosh platform, but golly-gee-by-jingoes, if I could buy OSX for the x86, I'd be there like a rat up a drainpipe. I'd pay money for it too!
That kinda thing would certainly put the wind right the hell up Billy Boy and his cronies too.
I find your ideas intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Slashdot? - I really don't understand this place...i'm called a troll for stating a few facts - i mis-spell NIMO and someone corrects me - they get modded up...
MY POSTING brought about a long series of conversational topics - yet, in the end, i get called a troll by a moderator - I don't understand - the moderators should have a slightly more depictive reason for the posters...
Suppose I am an electricity distributor. I have a monopoly where you live. Should I force you to buy natural gas from me ? No, this is illegal.
But you're right, MS gives stuff away for free, only those who can compete with that model of undercutting can survive. If they think that's "communist" then they finally understand what Marx was getting at! Once a company gets so big, and their product so common, they are either a Nobiity, a King, or are relieved by force of their source of power. The EU seeks to remove MS power by force...traditional "communism". OSS seeks to adapt the market to the new rules...and maybe change a few along the way. But OSS does it within the very system that the Monopolist abuses! That makes the damage so much worse...all that money make and power gathered mean nothing! because everyone else left you and went somewhere else!
To look at it another way, pure capitalism and pure communism have the same requirements. All the players must be reletively equal! Henry Ford understood that when he created a class of well-paid workers to drive the economy...Russia had it rammed down their throats when the nobility that owned everything [even the people] was overran by the starving, hungry masses.
Thanks for the pointer. Just downloaded it, tried it. My current beef is that I can't find a media player/codec combination that will run on Windows and play back DVB-T (Terrestrial digital tv) files grabbed from a DVB-T PCI card in a Gentoo linux box. Every windows player, including this one, can't handle the files. (I wanna make a home-grown PVR with digital free-to-air tv and a linux box, but I can't sell the idea to She Who Must Be Obeyed until the content can be played back, at will, with a Windaz box). I'm open to suggestion.
for the record, I sacrificed a box to the evil WMP9 today, and even that couldn't handle DVB-TS streams :-/
I find your ideas intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Yes. I still remember when they shipped Windows and IE with only 56 bits encryption, while the US version had 128 bit.
WWTTD?
Like when EU blocked the merger of Honeywell and GE? GE is a humungous corporation, yet their plans were thwarted by EU.
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
Mandrake is now the first european linux distribution.
Moding Karmik Sigs
What's in a sig?
Just install Zoom Player for video.
It's much better than WMP...
miles better.
SCIREV.NET - fanfics,reviews & more
Those interested in a nicely-hacked, small-footprint version of WMP should take a look at Media Player Classic.
The nice thing about WMP is that it's a self-contained executable, it allows you to add any DirectShow filters you may have installed, supports Quicktime and RealMedia (that's right! get rid of those ugly, bloated pieces of dogshit), as well as DVD support and built-in support for TV cards.
Basically, it does everything, weighs in at under a meg, and looks and feels just like Media Player 6.4. Get it. Now.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Corporate abuse has gotten out of hand and the bill of rights ought to apply to them as well.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
-Jes' feedin' da trolls
Where did you get your recent history books from; box tops off of a cereal packet?
Oh wait, given that you're an American you probably did!
SInce we have this little trade war goingon over the US steel import tarrif, we might as well apply punitive import duties to Windows - in fact make it fair, apply it to operating systems - as to American underwear.
The targets are carefully chosen to affect (sorry guys) States that supported Mr Bush for President - so how did Washington State vote?
MS is the larger vendor in an oligopoly then.
Too many public bodies have become oligopsonies though.
In addition to Microsoft's contracts with OEMs, which give Microsoft an unfair advantage over its competitors, another problem is the lack of interoperability. The lack of interoperability does much greater harm to consumer choice than bundling; indeed, bundling is problematic because of interoperability issues (at least in part). After all, if the Windows Media Player file formats were open, Windows Media Player could easily be replaced by QuickTime Player, xine, mplayer, or any of the numerous media players already available to consumers.
I would support a decision requiring Microsoft to document fully every aspect of its proprietary file formats. So long as users are able to play their music and videos using non-Microsoft software, it should matter little whether Windows Media Player is included with Windows or not.
"In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
Surely they are saying "if I'm not allowed to burgle that house then that negatively affects my bank balance ..."?
The European Commission has never been frightened of applying tough punishment against abuse of monopolies and price fixing as illustrated by the Commission's $147 Million fine for Nintendo price fixing. Also, it would be good PR for the Commission to be seen to protect MPlayer as Hungary (the home of mplayerhq.hu) is in the process of joining the European Union. The Commission always likes to invest in, protect and welcome its newer and poorer members.
I speak as somebody who was "commissioned" by the Commission to work on a Europe-wide project for 2 years. I have had the pleasure of working with some pretty incompetent people over the years (if you've worked in defence, local government or taxation you'll have met some of them yourself), but compared to the Commission these places are run like a well-oiled machines. I have never seen such a hopeless bunch of overpaid, underworked, gravy-train spongers in my life, and I don't expect to again.
Anyway, back on topic... I think that Europe could be a key battleground for Microsoft over the coming years. There is a fashionable anti-"Corporate America" feeling around in European politics right now. I think that we'll see Governments and public sector in Europe moving towards Open Source for that reason (quite apart from the fact that in many cases OSS offers a superior technical solution). Big investment in Open Source, along with a few high profile and successful reference sites is something Microsoft will try to avoid at all costs.
And in blocking the GE/Honeywell merger, one of the key factors is rumoured to have been Jack Welch's attitude that the EU "wouldn't dare oppose a merger that had already been approved in the US". He was arrogant and tried to downplay the importance and/or power of the EU. The EU squashed his merger.
... did you ever install an XP box anywhere? Did you have the warm fuzzy feeling of a cow forced into a slaughter house when you finally gave in and for the sake of getting the darn MSN messenger NAG POPUP away you just subscribed to MSN network? Like you many other did, the account stats drove thru the roof and MS powerpointed the industry to the incredible marketing opportunities this new userbase has. Being an iChat user I'm forced to evangelize against MSN Messenger in a country (Italy) insightfully described as populated by "anarchist sheep" and MS Messenger users; what's the point in having an IM when none of your buddies has a handle on your protocol? So I'm forced to also use MSNMessenger for Mac, in case I need to chat with one of the overwhelming majority of my friends using MSN. This stinks because before XP, it was a matter of competing products, now it's about fighting an endemic disease.
Mi domando chi à il mandante di tutte le cazzate che faccio - Altan
As a desktop Apple beat everyone. Unfortunately it turned out there was no prize.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
don't make them raise the price. raiese the price of the tariff 1:1 for every raise that microsoft makes. at first it will be 20$ tariff, then 50$ then 500$ then 3000$ and then sooner or later no one will be buying MS products and the ones who are are both going to widespread pirate it, and give money to the local government so they don't have to tax the rest of the populous quite as much
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
A trade war with the EU would probably damage US interests more than the EU. Of the US imports 16.1% came from the EU in 1999. Of the EU imports 16.9% came from the US in 1999. So the EU and US trade on, more or less, equal footing.
Of course, the EU doesn't have the huge national debt the Bush administration has given the US. In fact, EU economic policy keeps it's member states debt fairly controlled.
So the US actually has far more to lose than the EU at the moment. Whilst you may find it amusing to see the EU economies struggle, I hope you're not a US citizen, or else you'd most probably find your own economy doing quite a bit worse.
And don't think Hogan's Heroes will rescue him, either.
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
I don't think that the Americans can live without half the consumer-products they buy everyday. There is already a trade-cold-war situation between the EU and the USA. The EU have many regulations to protect people, and many agree it is necessary, when living in a capitalistic society. We don't import any meat from the US, because it cannot be guarantied to be without extra hormons. The EU is just starting to make regulations and laws in the IT-sector, which has started with the patency-system a.so. (not that I liked that start, but at least the people was heard and changes were made in last minute (months in EU-time :) It is easy to call the EU a lobby-controlled organisation, but harder to tell the reason behind it.
(yes this can be compared with sex)
Actually, the EU has teeth. It probably isn't any less corrupt than the current US regime, but it's a different kind of corruption, and to more and smaller groups.
Plus, Monty of the EU antitrust division is not exactly known for being a guy you can buy. He actually appears to have a sadistic liking to showing large corporations just where their power ends.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
With all these suggestions of sanctions coming out of the woodwork, it's worth pointing out what powers the EU Competition Commission actually has.It can fine the company up to 10% of turnover. That's total group turnover, not just the business it does in the EU.
Why should you be wondering, when you can actually know ?
Is cd burning part of the OS? The direct instructions that control the burner, yeah, the pretty interface, nay.
Web browser? You must be joking, but hopefully you have been educated....
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Copyright is a privaledge. If a company is found to be in an abusive monopoly position, then I think all copyrights and patents held by that company during the period of abuse should be transferred to the commons. This would encourage the competition that they stifled.
What's the problem here? Users just need to simply install something else. XP SP2 also added a control that allows users to easily select non-Microsoft software to run on the system (so long as it installs into the registry correctly).
Last time I installed RealPlayer / RealOne (and this is the last time I install it) it took over all my file associations by default because I forgot to select the "advanced" options like I usually do. So, when users install RealPlayer or QT, they don't have to worry about it anyway!
But I now I suppose you're going to tell me that MS should include RealPlayer or QT or Winamp or something else in Windows! Get a friggin' life! Does your company bundle your competition's software with its product?!
This all comes down to people who need a government to tell them that they have options - they can't figure it out for themselves. Sure, IE is embedded in the shell (to make development easier and the L&F consistent) and it comes with WMP and Movie Maker and all that jazz, but Microsoft has NEVER stopped people from installing other alternatives on Windows. I have Mozilla, QuickTime, and RealPlayer installed right now and use them from time to time with no problems! I can even use that new control panel applet to switch to an almost completely non-Microsoft setup using said software. Sure, IE (mshtml actually) is still used for the shell, but did you ever hear of component development? Gecko doesn't implement the right interfaces to make that possible because they didn't want to license MS COM. Even an extensible, modular system has limits - it has to know what it's talking to in a standard manner.
The point is that people do have options despite what comes bundled. They shouldn't need a government to enforce that by stripping things out of Windows. Sure, some people may settle for what comes "in the box", but most these days don't. And for those that do settle for what they're given, they probably don't even care or know enough to download and install an alternative - so at least they're given something!
Answer: all of the above. I had a quick google and found this definition for the phrase operating system. I hope this answers your question :)
I suspect the Europeans would still enjoy a higher quality of life than the Americans.
"HahhAHhahahahaHA my country is great! Still, we suck at quality of life" doesn't sound too smart a comment.
And I'm neither American nor European.
In fact, EU economic policy keeps it's member states debt fairly controlled.
Oh, you mean the stability pact that France and Germany, the two biggest economies in Europe, are flouting?
I'd be surprised if US debt as percentage of GDP is much above the European average, but I could be wrong. Numbers please?
I hope the EU courts/lawwyers are smarter than their US counterparts, and won't basically let MS off with no real incentive to be nice.
And exactly how does not bundling a media player make the underlying OS a substandard product? A video/music application doesn't seem to me to have any affect whatsoever on an OS's quality.
A trade war can also influence the flow of capital. In which case, Europe would be brutalized. Starved of US capital, not that goods and services between markets are insignificant, those on the continent would suffer mightily.
One might even consider scenarios in which the US intentionally devalued its currency outside of its boarders. Which of course would devalue the dollar over all, but considering how many of those dollars are in european hands, that alone could be a cripling economic blow.
Considering the state france and germany are in, looking at being fined for their debt load, a trade war at such a dellicate time would be quite a bitter pill. Not to mention the fun that could be had pitting the newer states against the old guard with preferential trade agreements.
In fact putting something of a cork in the hemmoraging capital from my fair shores might well improve my prospects.
Neither Apple or Real install system useable codecs. They only work from within their own programs (and both of them insist on trying to take over every other type of media they can find, often despite being told not to)
I sure as hell don't pay MS for the DivX Codec, XVID or MPEG2 Codec I have installed, but they all work from within Windows Media Player. It's only Quicktime and Real that act like little bitches and won't install a proper codec, keeping it locked up within their own application.
These European socialist fucktards should give up this monopoly nonsense and go after Microsoft on account of real issues like their violations of contract.
Well, reasonable people can argue over what "quality of life" means.
But...
USA purchasing power parity - $37,600 (2002 est.) (per capita)
France purchasing power parity - $25,700 (2002 est.)
Germany purchasing power parity - $26,600 (2002 est.)
Belgium purchasing power parity - $29,000 (2002 est.)
UK purchasing power parity - $25,300 (2002 est.) (I thought this one would be higher)
Citizens of Luxembourg actually manage to just barely beat out those of us living in the US. All 400,000 of them. I bet it's easy to immigrate there too. Well, good luck with that. Let me know how it works out. Hahahaha.
Actually, the really funny part is people, particularly those in the UK, are still fighting the Euro. Sure, it would mean a brief drop in the standard of living, but in a generation or so, Europe would likely be a vastly stronger ecomoic power not unlike the United States.
You're right, reasonable people can argue over what "quality of life" means. I would argue that "purchasing power" is only a small part of it. I would gladly give up a third of my purchasing power to gain back a third of my time. My time has more value to me than the things I could buy with that money. Particularly since those things are mostly just going to sit around at home gathering dust whilst I'm slaving away to earn more money to buy more.
Another thought - the USA purchasing power parity may only be higher because some of the richest people in the world reside here, thus bringing up the average. It doesn't mean the average person actually has a higher purchasing power... Your average working-class US citizen probably has a purchasing power closer to the UK.
I have just the opposite take. I work for a Fortune 500 company, and we are in the process of migrating some of our Java server apps from Windows to Linux. We were planning on going with Red Hat and weren't even considering SuSE. Then, after the Novell announcement, an email circulated asking whether we should consider SuSE. It was now considered more of a "real player" here in the US, and a safer choice.
---------------------------------------------
SERENITY NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Keep your eyes to the sky.
When Joe Sixpack wants to [fill in the blank: play music, watch his p0rn video, whatever], his first thought is: where's that on the menu. He sees Microsoft Windows Media Player. Okay, he can understand that and it says Microsoft. It probably looks and works like Word or IE. He feels safe. He doesn't want the best -- doesn't have the experience and expertise to make that judgement -- he just wants the least hassle.
Until Linux comes pre-installed on computers in a big way -- or young people begin to encounter Linux setups in grade school on up and thus get conditioned with a Linux mindshare -- it won't matter what alternatives to MS bundled software are out there for PC users. Human nature being what it is, people will look for what's comfortable. And most people are not geeks. They do other things that are also good and valuable.
On the other hand, when Linux distros do get pre-installed, they had better provide a similar level of comfort. Joe Sixpack doesn't want to read man pages to figure out that XMMS mean "X" (huh?) "MultiMedia System" and plays music ("...and why is it so tiny? I can barely click on those controls?!")
I don't see too many complaints about Apple's bundling of their very good iApps. Double standard? Yes. But Apple's not the 600 pound monopoly (though I bet they wish they were -- a benign dictator would still be a dictator, and their benignity is only an assumption on my part, not a given). Microsoft is the monopoly.
I agree with a previous poster, but for different reasons. Let Microsoft do whatever it wants. Bundling is not the battle space. The battle space is over the whole enchilada. Alternatives at the point of initial purchase. In a year or two, I think Linux distros will be fully there.
(This is what's so frustrating about the fact that Apple, as numerous posters have pointed out, will never release OS X for the Intel platform. As it stands, to use OS X you have to buy Apple hardware. Period. You have to commit to enter a completely different universe. That's a lot to ask a newbie computer user. It's like becoming a vegetarian or something. But three OS alternatives within the constant of the same hardware platform would be very interesting. --Oh, that's right; you can do that with a Mac!)
For anything to change, everything has to change.
Wait until MS wins the media player war, and then you'll see about as much further development and innovation and basic caring about WMP as you currently see in Internet Explorer. Not to mention that is when MS will start locking it down with compulsory DRM.
Even if you use WMP and think it's great it's in your best interests for there to be large vibrant healthy competition.
Write your application in C++ using Boost, and use Boost.Python to script it for a particular GUI.
There are a bazillion other good ways to solve problemns in a platform independent way.
When was the last time you spared a though for your BIOS? Why can't the OS assume nearly as low a profile in the overall scheme of things?
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
I understand that by having media player built into the OS it will give people who are not bright enough to install a real media player onto their computer access to media. But what should they do? Have QuickTime installed as well? Maybe real audio?
Its simple, stupid people don't like to think, and by having media player installed, they don't need to think. And another media player will just confuse them.
I prefer media player built into windows, it's one less thing to download to play my divx movies.
TruePunk | Games
Wait. Microsoft says they can't remove Windows Media Player without shipping a sub-standard OS.
And that magically becomes "Microsoft Defies EU Commission?" Interesting how that transformation takes place on the pages of Slashdot.
And I even submitted an article about the kernel backdoor that was thwarted by the Open Source process--as reported at Groklaw and other places, as it is a big deal--and it got rejected for this rubbish.
Clearly, anti-Microsoft articles take precedence over pro-Linux ones.
You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming.
"Sufferin' succotash."
You think I'm wrong? You think I'm kidding? You watch and see what they actually do about it, then decide for yourself.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
The few billionairs beyond what would seem our normal allotment are a drop in the bucket of our lowish 10.4 trillion GDP. Though a billionaire residing in Luxembourge might well skew the curve for the 400k or so citizens that call it home. It's more likely the disproportionate number of millionaires that do the real damage over here. But, given their great number one could certainly argue they should be included and are representative of an important trend in the population. Let's not forget the recent immegrants skewing the curve the other direction too, a pressure, most eurpean countries escape, or at least greatly mitigate as compared to the US and our liberal immegration policies.
You do make an interesting point. Maybe the proper normalization isn't each persons share of the GDP, but rather each man hour that went into making it. Certainly, such a statistic could be computed, at least in broad terms. Dollars per person, or man-hour? Interesting.... I would suspect Germany might take the lead, or Belgium. Still, there is the point about a person choosing to sell their time for the money. One might presume that they would not do so if it was not worth it. In which case, the per capita GDP might be seen not only as all that was produced by an average person but also how much the average indiviuals time is worth. Which still says nothing about the shape of the distribution, of course.
It would be pretty interesting to see not just mean, but mode and median values published as well. (You do see median occasionally, but I don't ever recall seeing modal numbers.)
Who said anything about a trade war between countries? MS is a private company that could simply say, "We find the regulations in Europe to be onerous, so for the time being we have decided to quit doing business there." Same as if Saab said, "We find the pollution regulations in California to be onerous, so for the time being we have decided to quit selling Saabs in California." I'm sure we could come up with a long list of US companies that have withdrawn from EU markets for one reason or another, and vice versa. It's possible that the Swedish government might announce, "We have required Saab to stop selling cars in California because MS won't sell us Windows," but that seems pretty silly.
As in the US, EU consumers have put MS software in a very dominant position. Like any other addict, the withdrawal process if your drug is taken from you would be painful. Is the EU in total willing to deal with that pain? Are the EU regulators able to maintain their position if MS's response is to withdraw their products?
But M$ consistently and repeatedly makes it a problem (this bundling of other apps with the OS). First off, let's require M$ accept the fact that an OS is NOT a webbrowser, media player, etc. An OS is like the linux kernel. Everything else (media player, browser, etc) are APPLICATIONS that work through the OS in some fashion. Period.
That FACT stated, M$ must simply be forced to quit integrating so many APPLICATIONS into the so-called OS and leave them as APPLICATIONS. That is the first and simple step. The next step: Make every app selectable or not by whoever is installing/preinstalling an OS. Maybe as a computer retailer I want to provide Windoze (why I would want to do this is beyond me) but with mozilla INSTEAD of IE. No, I do not want IE to be disabled, yet still installed, I want it NOT INSTALLED AT ALL. It is an app, not an os function so it doesn't belong.
Basically, force M$ to follow the Gnome/KDE path: all those nifty APPLICATIONS get bundled together and nicely integrate with each other but they are all selectable and removable. You are not required to use them nor even install them. You can install anything else you want without pain.
Next step, and something that should have been enforced/required a LONG time ago: open up ALL file formats and communication protocols. TCP isn't owned by anyone but is useable by everyone. HTTP isn't owned by company X, it is a TRUE standard that everyone can use and KNOW that if you use real HTTP your web pages will be viewable to ANYONE with ANY proper web browser. This should be the case with file formats and other communication protocols too.
If your software isn't strong enough in its own right to bring users, then it isn't OK to make up for this by making use of broken HTTP or using propriatory comm protocols and formats to take direct advantage of an illegally-gained monopoly position in the OS market in the first place.
There you have it. Merely force M$ to open up the formats, publish comm protocols and release them for STANDARDS BODY APPROVAL and then compete on the quality of your software ALONE. No punishment allowed for any vendor of any kind because they elect to use an alternative to a M$ offering. No threats, nothing. End of story. The end.
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
Slashdot...still confused am I - see, my posting (to which I'm replying) - was modded down because it's REDUNDANT - however, the redundancy occurred AFTER my post - meaning I was original thought - someone else was redundant - yet I got modded down - while someone who posted IN REPLY to me got modded UP for agreeing with me!
Could someone please explain this!!!
~-confused and dazed-~
They have another body made up of representitives from each member, a member state government flunky who is shackled by the industry lobbying of their home nation government and possibly by personal self interest (company sponsored some times no doubt).
MEPs (members of the Europena Parliament) who are elected by ambarassingly small turn outs at elections (down toward 30% of the electorate I think) and don't really have a great deal of power to do anything.
The whole set of institutions is riddled with what many might percieve as corruption or at least abuse of position. But the possible abusers are actually just making use of the perks of office.
There is a European matter of factness to being bribed as an official by commerce, it is an integral part of the workings of Government in most member states. That is why the French at an electorate level have to be so willing to rise up and be rowdy and disruptive. It's an effective check to industry paid polticians giving business everything they want.
But to have some pride in it, they have been doing business/politics that way for several times longer than the USA has existed.
The monkeys made me ...For shame, to talk about your parents that way.
Start
Programs
Accessories
Entertainment
Sound Recorder
So that's why I could never get an MP3 or a movie to play---Joe Sixpack
Seeing as how Saab is now owned by General Motors, your scenario is rather flawed. If Sweden tried to tell an American company that they could no longer sell cars in America, there would simply be one less car company located in Europe.
I've been called a "Fucking Dick" by better people than you.
Losers just can't stand to see someone win.
As one of the other poster notes, what is it that makes one group the "winners" and the other group the "losers"? If it financial gain? Is it technical superiority? Is it good looks? (If you think about it, Gates and Torvalds have an eerie "separated at birth" similarity. Of course so does the Novell guy... No slight to any of the OSes meant here.) There is no contest going on to see who "wins". In Bill Gates' and Steve Ballmers' minds, "winning" is all about monetary gain. That's why security and stability have taken them a long time to notice. And even now, it's half-hearted and only based on the fact that the problems with their OS and the availability of other more secure OSes IS affecting their bottom line. But in the end, does financial success make someone a "winner"? Only if that's why you're doing what you're doing in the first place.
The people who work on Linux mostly do it because they like to and they want to. There are various drives. Some of us do it to save money. So if I "win" any contest, it's going to be how much I've accomplished with very little money. Frugality is a large motivator for me. Another potential contest is to see who can get something very well designed from the ground up. This would be the "technological superiority" contest. Guys who are throwing their own home made set top boxes together with Linux are usually the clear winners here. Sure, you can do a lot of the same things with Windows, but it's largely and technically inefficient. If all you want to do is record TV shows on a set top box, then WHY do you need a web browser?
All you Windows Haters out there better wake the fuck up and realize Microsoft has won.
The OS wars, much like the religious wars, will continue on forever. There are people still claiming that their Amigas and Ataris are still better than the current Windows boxes and Linux boxes out there. Obviously, they are deluded. Again, there is no "winning" here. Who won the religious wars? The Christian god? Allah? Satan? L. Ron Hubbard? Charles Tayes Russell? Matt Solenzer?
People WANT Microsoft. That's the basic fact that a lot of you weenies seem to like to overlook.
Wrong. People don't WANT Microsoft. They don't even realize that there may be alternatives besides the Mac. The number of people out there that grumble about how much Microsoft sucks, or Windows ate their files, or "why do I keep getting viruses", should be plenty of proof that people DON'T WANT Microsoft. They just accept Microsoft. The OpenOffice project and the Mozilla browser are furhter proof that people just want something that works for what they do. Everyone is different and no company, not even Microsoft can satisfy everyone. People are just assigned Microsoft when they buy their PCs. Then they just accept it. I RARELY hear non-technical people say, "I LOVE Windows"!
In the Long run, Microsoft has done more for innovation, security, and advanced developments in the computer industry than any other entity be they free or proprietary.
Hmmmm... where to start with this statement? Let's start with "innovation". The real definition of innovation is:
A change in customs; something new, and contrary to established customs, manners, or rites.
So that means a change in the "status quo". Considering that M$ IS the "status quo" they can hardly be thought of as innovative. Of course, it all depends on how you DEFINE innovation. Here is waht I've interpretted M$'s definition of innovation to be:
To buy, cheat or steal technology from other sources and rebrand it as Microsoft.
We all know this to be true. How did M$ get DOS? They bought it for $50,000 from the company that originally developed it and then made some cosmetic changes to it so it said "MS-DOS" instead of QDOS. That wa
Un-news
"EU Commission stomps MS to chunky kibbles."
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
But you get the point, don't you? Trade wars are conducted by governments. Private companies routinely make decisions about the markets where they will operate, and those decisions are influenced by many things: opportunities, costs, regulatory environment, exchange rate risks, etc. Maybe DeBeers is a better example. They do not operate in the US (they run TV commercials here advertising diamonds, but they do NOT sell diamonds in the US) because they have been told by the US DOJ that their business practices violate US antitrust law, and they prefer to maintain their current practices rather than participate directly in the US market.
MS and its shareholders may prefer not selling in the EU to paying a billion-dollar fine or writing an EU-specific version of the OS or revealing all of their client/server protocols. If DeBeers is the analogy, one supposes that EU companies would then like to get into the business of buying MS software elsewhere and importing it. Of course, MS would have to cooperate in such an operation, which appears to be forbidden by some of the current licensing arrangements. It turns into a trade war when the EU forbids the import of MS software, or places high tariffs on it.
For that matter, it's not all that useful to most people without a web browser and a media player; hence the packaged distributions like RedHat and so on. I hate to say it, because it plays right into M$'s hands, but I think that the honest truth is that they, just like Apple and RedHat, are selling a complete desktop product, not just a kernel; and modern people expect "operating system" to include windowing capabilities, web, and media players. I'm glad that Apple & RedHat work to make all their applications work well together and get synergy; I'm not surprised that Microsoft tries to do the same.
TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.
Maybe the proper normalization isn't each persons share of the GDP, but rather each man hour that went into making it. Certainly, such a statistic could be computed, at least in broad terms. Dollars per person, or man-hour?
That's called hourly productivity. It's actually computed regularly by international institutions such as OECD. I remember reading in a paper that France and Belgium came slightly above the US in hourly productivity but I'm too lazy to find a link. Basically it boils down to Frenchmen working on average 1,300 hours per year while USians are around 1,650 IIRC.
It would be nice to be sure of anything the way some people are of everything.
Very true but as the econmoist points out it may be a long drawn out battle.
I believe the example of Honeywell and GE used by another poster was an instance where preventative action was taken before the merger was consumated, whereas what we are talking about here is breaking up something which already exists (referring here to the established windows product rather than breaking up MS which doesn't appear in the articles list of remedies considered).
I work for an OEM equipment manufacturer, and I can tell you now, there is zero chance of us buying in OEM copies of realplayer, installing them and configuring them. even if real provided it free. I have spoken in my life to a sum total of zero customers who care which media player is installed as standard.
surely the key is to remove the media player entirely, and let the consumer choose which to download of the net? the consumer should be making the decision here. OEM manufactures don't have the time, the inclination or the profit motive.
now if MS reduced the licence fee for OEM licences, that's different ;)
i'm trying to give up sigs.
Trouble in Brussels.
Bill Gates:
Oh, no -- what kind of trouble?
Courtois:
Monsieur Monti vraiment croit en concurrence loyale et ne compromettra pas.
Gates:
What?
Courtois:
Monsieur Monti vraiment croit en concurrence loyale et ne compromettra pas.
Gates:
I don't understand what you're saying.
Courtois (slightly irritated, with an exaggerated American accent):
Mario is a real hard-ass.
Gates:
Well, what the hell does that mean?
Courtois:
I don't know -- general counsel Brad Smith just told me to say that there was trouble in Brussels, that's all -- I didn't expect a kind of European Commission.
(JARRING CHORD)
(The door flies open and competition Commissioner Mario Monti of the European Union enters, flanked by two junior commissioners. One of them is wearing a pair of goggles -- Biggles-style.)
Mario Monti:
NOBODY defies the European Commission! Our chief weapon is surprise... surprise and fear... fear and surprise... Our two weapons are fear and surprise... and ruthless efficiency... Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency... and an almost fanatical devotion to fair competition... Our four... no... Amongst our weapons... Amongst our weaponry... are such elements as fear, surprise... Wait, I'll come in again...
Still, there is the point about a person choosing to sell their time for the money.
;-)
Or, to put it another way, the point about those who have the wealth and power to do so choosing to create the conditions under which most of us have little choice but to sell more time for less money than we would prefer to.
But I won't go there.
No wonder you posted this as an AC. Starved of US capital ? Ha ha, you must be a moron. May I remind you that the US runs a current account deficit in excess of 500 billion dollars annually (and thatit already is the world's largest DEBTOR nation). That means that the US needs to BORROW almost 2 billion DAILY from the Asians and these (old) Europeans. A deliberate devaluation of the US dollar would ultimately hurt the United States the most, because no one would invest in the US for many years to come.
Unfortunately, from past research, I know that the numbers on these things are damn tricky to get. However...
This marks out US budget deficit as 4% of GDP. According to this, there are only three countries in the EU with debts currently exceeding 3% of GDP. France, with 3.9% (though a BBC article puts this now at the same level as the US), Germany at 3.8% and Portugal at 3.3%. Remember, these are the only countries out of all the members of the EU with deficits over 3%.
Unfortunately I couldn't find a source for the overall EU deficit. As I say, such things are nearly impossible to find on good. But we can conclude that the EU's overall budget deficit is probably quite close to 3%, considering the majority of member states are at or below that. And even though Germany and France are big economies in the EU, Britain's not bad for size either, and thus she and the other 11 member states I haven't mentioned yet, probably contribute a greater amount than the France/Germany pair.
Of course, a lot of this is speculation, due to inadequate statistics, but effectively US debt is quite a bit higher; anywhere from 40% to 20% more, when compared to relative GDPs.
I'm not saying it's much different, just that taken the fact that the EU and US trade on equal footing, and the EU has an economy with less debt, then it's not necessarily given that a trade war would be in the US's favour.
What if I'm a monkey? Typing with 20 digits and having an extra appendage to control the mouse comes in very handy, let me tell you.
:)
That said, my sig doesn't necessarily imply my creation by simians. It's ambiguous
it would be forced to ship a substandard version to European consumers
Doesn't the US Government already order M$ to ship a substandard version to the European consumers (encryption in US versions uses a larger bit key than the European version) but I don't rememeber them moaning about that.
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet;
A chrysanthemum by any other name would be easier to spell
The only country that would win in a trade war between US and EU would be China.
One of the main reasons our steel industry needs tariffs to survive is that US Steel was allowed to persist as a monopoly in the early 20th century. This allowed them to remain inefficient. Meanwhile, foreign steel producers became increasingly more efficient until, today, we need tariffs. (Also, witness the effect of AT&T being divested - successor Baby Bells have done tremendously well and long-distance rates have dropped to the floor)
If the US had been smart and divested Microsoft into seperate parts, perhaps Microsoft would have been forced to compete more and develop better and more efficient products. It will take far less time then it took the US Steel industry, I imagine, for Microsoft's inefficiencies to lead to Microsoft demise, but who knows.
Once again, our government favored short-term benefits (especially lobbying contributions, see www.opensecrets.org for Microsoft's massive increase of political spending during their US legal troubles) over long term costs in efficiency.
Too bad the EU doesn't have the power to divest Microsoft, but maybe a forced disclosure of source code could have the same impact.
Capital obviously has value, and so we pay and are paid interest. Even Muslims, who are forbiden to pay or charge interest, do so even if they must hide it in another transaction. But that cuts both ways. The French farmers controlling access to their farms, and of course the people's roadways, come to mind.
I'll grant you, there are a special set of rules for those entities possessing vast piles of capital be they Buffet, Gates, Worldcom, Citigroup or IBM. I agree there is a lot of room for progress in that area. But I refuse to be so naive as to delude myself into thinking that the US is the only place where this is mostly true. There certainly must be some reason rich american criminals prefer to flee to Europe, no?
Look at the behavior we tolerate from the petty dictators who have oil. It's no surprise as to why democracy stalled in that area of the world. If oil was as plentiful as wheat they'd be voting (for real) just like us.
A devaluation would hurt, but it could be made unequal. If it was easier for dollars to be expatriated than repatriated dollars ourside the US would be worth less than those inside. So while the value would fall, it would fall faster in extra-territorial hands. Considering how much of the world economy runs on greenbacks, and the associated costs in switching, such as those currencies that currently tie themselves to the US dollar, business and trade in the US market place would become cheaper by comparison.
The US is so big, there's too much money to be made, no one could afford to abandon the market place. Especially with US labor getting cheaper. Oh and a big chunk of that paper is owed by americans. Though sometimes the world, knowing a buying opportunity, esspecially on such a secure investment, out bids ma and pa kettle.
Woo largest debtor. Woo. Guess who flunked statistics. You. The us is the worlds largest everything short of country by population or land area. Woo. We're also the worlds largest LENDER. I'm talking about making that vastly more expensive. That capital must go somewhere to be invested, it's not going to be burried under mattresses. And sure, some, even much of it still would make it beyond the fair shores of America, but much less than does now.
Your attitude is EXACTLY why I'd like to see a trade war, even a small one. You bitches just take too much shit for granted. It might be fun to see a little bare knuckled economic competition, with us using our vastly superior economy to divide the other industrial nations and set them against each other.
Oh, and I post anonoymously now, for everything, partly because I like the idea of words speaking for themselves, and conversations not only tend to be more fun, but also contain more information I'd be interested in (such as radio station recommendations like C89.5 in Seattle).
First off, let me express how impressed I might be that you can control a mouse with an extra prehensile appendage. The ladies must really dig that kind of dexterity.
And, not to throw poop at other AC's but I assumed you ment you'd joined a evolutionaryily stunted criminal organization that enjoyed public masturbation and occasional gay sex. Like the Portland Trail Blazers, or Dallas Cowboys.
companies realizing they are doing poorly and blaming microsoft is really tiresome, sun does it with java, netscape does it with browsers, just make a better product and people will change. what alternative do you suggest to windows media player? real player is absolutely awful. and i dislike quick time's lack of features.
Wow. We've racked up a multi-trillion dollar deficit in the last three years?
... the last fifteen years?)
(Or, just as inaccurate, but not quite as silly:
Mixing political agendas with anything is not advisable.
Huh? Have I missed something? I didn't mention a "multi-trillion dollar" deficit, nor did I imply it, apart from saying it was damn high. However, with a debt of nearly 400 billion dollar (or 0.4 trillion, if you prefer), the US does owe more money than any other country in the world.
That's 4% of the US's GDP, which is even more than France has racked up at the moment, and certainly much more than the EU as a whole has.
And where does this whole 3 years thing come from? Perhaps it would be best if you didn't mix political agendas, as you certainly haven't read my post through properly.
In 1999, the EU had a GDP of 7.8 billion euros, the US of 8.7 billion euros. The US was only 12% better off than the EU. Once the new 10 prospective EU members are approved, the EU will be the biggest single market in the world, and will be a larger economic force than the US. Something to consider, neh?
Vastly superior economy? I wouldn't be so hasty, or confident, and nor would I class a 12% gain as "vastly superior". Certainly not when this was measured when the US was at it's peak, and certainly not when you consider that the economy of the EU, when expanded to 25 member states, will be easily larger than that of the US.
I wasn't proclaiming EU dominance over the US. Just that if a trade war started, the US couldn't sit comfortably back and be unaffected, whilst laughing at those poor EU citizens that depend so much on US goods. 12% ain't a lot, folks, and the EU and US exchange goods on an almost equal footing, as I pointed out before.
Considering the state france and germany are in, looking at being fined for their debt load
I should mention that France and Germany's debts are actually less than the US's, both in size and as a proportion of the country's GDP.
Not to mention the fun that could be had pitting the newer states against the old guard with preferential trade agreements.
Um... Well, fun for the Europeans, maybe. For all your talk about economic textbooks, you don't appear to know that the EU is a single market. For instance, if you sell to Spain something for $10, and sell it to France for $30, then the french won't buy it off you, they'll drive their trucks down to Spain, buy it there, then drive it back to France, incurring only transport costs. Single market, remember?
It's as silly as trying to punish Washington by selling high to them and cheap to California. It doesn't work. Economically, the only thing different from unloading goods in France or Spain is the location. It's the same market you're selling to.
But Microsoft would go to uncle Sam for assistance in resolving the issue. We might bargain, but we might also consider the EU to be defficient or unrealistic with respect to existing trade agreements. The not so recent bullshit over Boeing's acquisition of McDonell-Douglas comes to mind, where part of the deal was a technology transfer to airbus (still a government entity as opposed to a citizen of the free market). The EU can spend their good will, and create a climate where people in America seek to deny them what might be percieved as an unreasonable discount for access to our markets and capital. Unreasonable action against another major US company and industry, would be part of a trend that might lead to this conclusion, not to mention 'banking privacy' (read: assisted embezzeling) laws of certain EU not exactly member but not exactly not-member states. Then there's the political climate with Iraq, Afganistan, US forces deployed in europe, overflight rights, insane and subsequently repealed war crimes laws, and so many other things. Let's not forget the real temperment of the US is over the long haul basically isolationist. There are a lot of pressures internal to the US to withdraw from the world stage and, consequences be damned, give the world what they ask for. Sure a US withdrawl from South Korea sounds like a pretty good idea until the communists are shelling Seoul because the red states, as opposed to the large costal cities, got their way.
Meditate on the popularity of this administration's dream of a technological great wall, of anti-missle missles, and giant networks of cameras connected to massive clusters crunching countless quantities of biometric information. That dream isn't about going out and meeting people, it's about shutting the door, and telling the rest of the world to go fuck themselves, or else. That philosophy doesn't start with one failed coke'd up cowboy, and it doesn't end in the pentagon or the Department of Justice. Even more liberal people like me find that outlook, while impractical, even risky to the point of recklessness, is not without a certain cruel charm.
As I've written elsewhere, the suffering of the French and Germans, especially their sanctimonious politicians, in such a trade war would not only be considerable, but extremely entertaining.
Man, you have no clue about economics. Stop waffling.
Largest lender ? The world's largest lender is Japan.You'd better check some statistics yourself before making such outrageous comments. Check out http://www.imf.org and http://www.oecd.org.
I am in the consulting business and I have to stake my reputation on being sure. What Red Hat did killed my crediablity with several people in this area and has done real harm to our business because people thought they had a brand they could trust. To the shops already using Linux, they didn't care. They knew there were other distros and had the IT Staff in place to handle in house support.
However, average joe business USA needs a brand and company they could trust. Red Hat had created a brand for Linux and just lost it in many small shops. SuSE was the "other linux" (which I personally have always liked as a desktop over RH), but with the two major vendors in the commerical world in limbo, SMB's are not going to chance it. Fortune 500's are a different story.
Outside of the United States is where SuSE was catching on because it wasn't from the US or NA. My majors are in International Business, German, and International Affairs (yes I have 3 BA's) and a lot of my consulting work right now is companies paying some rather big bucks to anaylize trends out side the country. Its no secert that companies that use Linux are starting to see a lower TCO over their Windows couterparts. Why else would many in the finacial sector be moving towards the platform?
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
This can only benefit the rest of us.
Wouldn't it be nice to drive to a local mass market electronics store and be able to buy shrinkwrapped apps at random without having to worry about hardware configuration, what libraries you have installed, which versions of what desktops you are running?
There's only one major company which wouldn't benefit from this. 1 geek point for the name of the company. :-)
Who wants to find the right addresses for MS and for whichever part of the EU government to talk to about this?
Imagine MS under the delusion that they actually have popular US support for their violation of EU antitrust law.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Oh, I didn't say this only happened in Europe, although I understand how one could think I meant that since that's what the discussion was about. I was just rephrasing the parent's statement.
If people choose to sell their time more readily in the US than in Europe, of course that doesn't necessarily mean that the concentrations of wealth in the US are somehow worse than those abroad. There are many reasons people make the choices they do - perhaps we in the US just have a different cultural heritage which prods us throughout our lives to work hard because we'll be rewarded for it. Some might call a variation of this the "work ethic".
My comment was only intended to point out that there are other forces at work than the "rational worker" presumed by the parent. I've seen that sort of statement bandied about too much, and I can't let it pass. It sounds nice and tidy to say that we choose to sell our time, but there are many, many choices we make in life without realizing their full extent, or even that we are making them. Making these "Devil's bargains" more apparent is, I think, very important.