A Monocultural Alternative: TheOpenCD

GooseLiverPate writes "Computers and Composition Online has an article by Dr. Paul Cesarini concerning the risks of a Microsoft monoculture in education. He describes the relation between Open Source and Microsoft as: "one of gnats swarming around a large, slow-moving beast." and emphasises the lack of innovation in Internet Explorer and MS-Office. He suggests TheOpenCD as a possible bridge for schools and universities to Open Source, and includes a review of the newly released version 1.2."

Comments

Re:Article text in caseof/.ing or laziness

[Anonymous Coward]

This is worthless without proper formatting...

Schools not the best candidates for change

[shystershep]

In advocating resistance to the Microsoft "monoculture" in schools, Cesarini is aiming at the wrong target. Public schools will probably be the very last to "resist" and switch from Microsoft. The "widespread budgetary woes" and "ever-increasing licensing fees" don't effect them. Microsoft gives its products to schools for free or at a steep discount, and is more and more likely to do so the more viable the competition becomes. I don't have any hard data, but I imagine that a transition to Open Source would be more expensive for most schools than hanging on to the goodies from Redmond. And if anybody wonders why MS is so generous to schools, it's not because Bill is such a swell guy - if kids spend their school careers using Windows, Office, Outlook, Exploer . . . well, the first one's always free, right?

Re:Schools not the best candidates for change

[CanadaDave]

"Public schools will probably be the very last to "resist" and switch from Microsoft." This is a very good point. Schools were also the last to switch from Macs... True, Macs are seeing a resurgence, but basically schools used to use only Macs and clung to them until recently when they started switching to PCs.

Re:Schools not the best candidates for change

[monkeyfinger]

Schools have to provide children with skills that they will need in the real world. They teach them how to use microsoft because that is what they most of them will use in the workplace.

Once Linux becomes a major player in the business world then schools will start teaching it. You cannot change schools until you change business.

Re:Schools not the best candidates for change

[randall_burns]

I'm working at a large public school district. I've been successful at getting some Open Source tools in use here(CVS, Python, cygwin). Although there are academic versions of some of the Microsoft products, sometimes these aren't quite the same as the commercial versions. Also, event he discounted cost of some of the development tools is prohibitive.

This district is in fact heading towards Linux-the big reason is that they are heavy users of Novell--and Novell is moving towards Linux in a substantial way. That is how Linux is getting its foot in the door here.

Re:Schools not the best candidates for change

[jc42]

...basically schools used to use only Macs and clung to them until recently when they started switching to PCs.

When true, this is rather damning for a school.

Schools exist to educate their students, after all. A "black box" system whose inner workings aren't available to students would be the last thing you'd expect a school to use. It would be proof that the school isn't interested in teaching their students to understand the computers.

It used to be that the Mac was the most extreme black-box computer, with "no user-servicable parts". But Macs have been converted to a unix base in recent years. Not just unix, but a rather open and accessible version of unix. So the Mac has gone from being useless for education to being one of the best.

If a school reacts to this by switching from Macs to MS systems, it is clear proof that they don't want their students to become knowledgable about computers. If they were truly trying to educate, why would they switch to what is now the most closed system on the market?

This would be much like, say, a school offering driver's ed, but not auto shop. Or if they had auto shop, not allowing the students to open the hood and start taking a car apart.

People with kids in school should investigate, and if your school system is using closed, proprietary computers, you should complain loudly. Keeping the students ignorant of how computers work (hardware or software) is not a good way to prepare them for the world that is coming.

Re:Schools not the best candidates for change

[flamingantichimp]

Or not

I remember my school paid 900 or so dollars for 25 front page licenses. Yea, the school district had site licenses on Windows, but everything else is expensive.

Re:Schools not the best candidates for change

[ninejaguar]

Are you serious? You're saying that if a kid learns Linux, he won't be competent enough to operate Word in the business world??! I believe you're under the assumption that OpenOffice is so different from other word-processors that it verges on the revolutionary. Please, you know that isn't true. Any monkey using one word-processor, will take 5 minutes to learn another (assuming the keyboard is in the same language).

There is nothing, I mean nothing, so different in the application space as to cause the problem you're envisioning. The argument is a smokescreen, and any school principle who falls for it needs to be ejected to the concrete for wasting taxpayer dollars.

In addition, the argument works both ways. If schools only churn out kids who know Linux, businesses will have little choice but to switch to it, or spend their own money in retraining (a joke, as we know that Linux users would take less than five minutes to figure out how a Windows app works). Then, they'll find out that, Gee, we appear to be saving money by not having to buy faster equipment every year to compensate for the mandated bloated upgrades that our overpriced Microsoft support contracts demand.

= 9J =

Re:Schools not the best candidates for change

[deacent]

Schools exist to educate their students, after all. A "black box" system whose inner workings aren't available to students would be the last thing you'd expect a school to use. It would be proof that the school isn't interested in teaching their students to understand the computers.

In many cases, this is exactly the point. Schools switched to using MS because "everybody knows that's what's used in the real world". Never mind that it probably bears little resemblance to what will be used in the real world when that kid graduates from school. Many schools are not thinking about teaching IT to the majority of their students. They're thinking of teaching them word processing, spreadsheet, and research skills. These skills are really platform agnostic, but that's not generally recognized.

A lot of schools used to use Apples (not just Macs, but Apple IIs as well) because Apple gave enormous discounts to the educational sector. There was a point in time in the dark years when it started to become a foregone conclusion in some people's minds that Apple would be out of business soon, so you might as well get with the winner. Sadly, I think this had the effect of driving up the long term costs to maintain their tech which they're still paying for today. Like business, they have simply accepted that IT has to be expensive, but it's a necessary evil to stay competitive.

Re:Schools not the best candidates for change

[El]

Uh, last year Microsoft threatened to audit Northwest schools and charge them hundreds of thousands of dollars for any licenses they couldn't find. Doesn't exactly sound "cheaper" to me! Bear in mind half the computers are donated, not necessarily with documentation, and that most teachers have better things to do with their time then keep track of the Windows license that came with their computer... yeah, right, MS is _real_ generous to schools!

Re:Schools not the best candidates for change

[Anonymous Coward]

If the skills of word processing, spreadsheet, and research are really platform agnostic, then why does it matter that the kids are doing them on windows?

Also, the main reason that schools have switched away from Macintosh is that it seems heir Jobs has somewhat abandoned them in favour of the uber-cool urban elite that his products are now marketed towards.

Re:Schools not the best candidates for change

[CanadaDave]

When I said recently, I meant like 4 years ago. The time when schools started buying Macs again coincided with the iMac. Schools are kind of a mix of PCs and Macs nowadays for the most part, from what I have seen.

Re:Schools not the best candidates for change

[jc42]

Sadly, I think this had the effect of driving up the long term costs to maintain their tech which they're still paying for today. Like business, they have simply accepted that IT has to be expensive, but it's a necessary evil to stay competitive.

You're probably right. But they may well be wrong. After all, this was the same reasoning that, back in the 1970's and early 1980's, led many schools to install IBM equipment. Those schools then found themselves paying exorbitantly to stay in what turned out to be a backwater. The future was in desktop machines, not mainframes.

It's risky trying to be a prophet, but there's a good chance that schools using this reasoning will find themselves in a similar situation. As with biology, the computing future has pretty much always belonged to the small, agile beasts. The big and powerful might look dominant, but they eventually lose out to the little guys. Some of those little guys evolve to big, powerful beasts, and then the pattern repeats.

A school that wants its students to be winners should always bet on the smallest, most versatile computers. This especially means computers which are programmable by individuals, not by huge IT departments. This should be easy, because these are usually the cheapest computers. But this probably won't happen in many schools.

But there's an ongoing question of how much actual education most of our schools are really interested in. There's a lot of evidence to support the theory that schools' basic function is socialization, and education is mostly a side effect. One of the better pieces of evidence is the widespread use of closed, proprietary computer systems, which don't qualify as "educational" except in the most minimal sense.

Oh, well; computer education has always been mostly at the college (and trade school) level. Very few high-school graduates have ever been able to write even a "Hello, world" program in any language. But we've managed to turn out a small population of computer wizards anyway. Maybe it doesn't matter all that what the public schools do.

Re:Schools not the best candidates for change

[mistert2]

The e-macs are big now. But not in my district.

We went from apple IIe to windoze big time because of local politics.

Each school in my district go a 15" flat panel Imac for video editing. Our music depts got a couple power macs. Everything else is Dell.

I have students rebuilding 486-pentium II and putting debian and red hat on them. X can be a pain in the butt with non-standard hardware. But I am the only teacher in the district dabbling with linux. (electronics class is fun) Administration is clueless and bought off by Redmond. They get free laptops, wireless keyboards, and software from the Bill & Mel foundation.

Re:Schools not the best candidates for change

[deacent]

If the skills of word processing, spreadsheet, and research are really platform agnostic, then why does it matter that the kids are doing them on windows?

Because, as I stated before, it is not generally recognized that these skills are platform agnostic. There is a false belief that what is relavant today will be relavant ten years from now. Additionally, a lot of folks have been talked into the idea (usually by people with MSCs) that if MS makes a product, the alternatives are not worth considering because they won't be well supported. Ironically, I find the opposite to be true.

Also, the main reason that schools have switched away from Macintosh is that it seems heir Jobs has somewhat abandoned them in favour of the uber-cool urban elite that his products are now marketed towards.

No, the turn from Macs came well before Jobs came back to Apple. I'd say the defection was most rampant during the Amelio years. If anything, Jobs was the reason the Macs were in the schools in the first place. But, being a practical businessman, when he returned to a hurting Apple, he knew they'd have to go after short-term money which means cool stuff for people with disposable income. The school strategy is a long term one (mind share).

Re:Schools not the best candidates for change

[deacent]

But there's an ongoing question of how much actual education most of our schools are really interested in. There's a lot of evidence to support the theory that schools' basic function is socialization, and education is mostly a side effect. One of the better pieces of evidence is the widespread use of closed, proprietary computer systems, which don't qualify as "educational" except in the most minimal sense.

Not where I live. We have a very rigorous education system around here. I know the parents of one kindergarterner who were told by the school that socially, their daughter was right where she should be, but academically, she was too far behind to go to 1st grade. The matter of advancing her to 1st grade was completely out of the question. And this child is not what I regard as a slow learner.

The state that I live in (Connecticut) recommends that students be able to do the following before they enter school (I'm still working on a few of these myself.):

• Use and understand many words.
• Speak in complete sentences.
• Ask lots of questions.
• Say and notice words that rhyme in stories.
• Make up and share personal stories about his or her interests.
• Select familiar books and tell why he or she likes them. Retell favorite stories from books.
• Hold a book upright.
• Identify letters of the alphabet.
• Recognize letter sounds.
• Recognize, copy, and print his or her first name.
• Hold a pencil and write with it.
• Recognize and count up to ten items.
• Recognize the number symbols 1-10.
• Describe and talk about objects that have different sizes, colors, shapes, and patterns.
• Sort items by "same" and "different".
• Use the words "near", "far", "top", "bottom", "under", "first", "second", and "last".
• Sort objects from smallest to largest, shortest to tallest, and lightest to heaviest.
• Understand and participate in conversations.
• Stay involved in a directed activity to its completion.
• Follow routines and directions.
• Work and play together with other children.

Perhaps, my college had the right idea. They are an engineering university located in an inner city adjacent to a high school, along with a few other colleges and univeristies. Ten years ago, these higher level institutions joined forces to change Newark, NJ's image into a college area by creating a better environment for their students and the area residents. Here's the good idea: this group wanted to create a science high school (stuff like engineering, computer science, medicine, architecture, etc.) adjacent to my school. Volunteer college students would be available as tutors to the high school students, creating a mentoring program. It looks like they're estimating that the high school will be complete in 2006. For those who care, you can read more about it here.

Re:Schools not the best candidates for change

[cmacb]

Don't forget that a large part of Microsoft's "punishment" in the anit-trust case was that they are "forced" to give away copies of Windows to various schools. The California settlement went that way too. As far as I know they can even take deductions on these lost leader deals. There were some school systems that switched from Apple on a large scale because they preferred to get Microsoft products for free rather than pay drastically lowered Apple prices. So essentially Microsoft manipulated the government into "sentencing" it to do what the marketing department wanted to do anyway. I don't give Microsoft credit for much, but they sure do run circles around the Feds.

Re:Schools not the best candidates for change

[kent_eh]

If a school reacts to this by switching from Macs to MS systems, it is clear proof that they don't want their students to become knowledgable about computers. If they were truly trying to educate, why would they switch to what is now the most closed system on the market?

The schools that I have seen switch from Mac to PC switched from Mac Classic and earlier machines to Pentiums. Not really a philosophical shift, as much as moving to hardware that is from the current decade.

That's not to say there is anything wrong woth vintage Macs, but years and years of kids hammering on them is bound to take it's toll.
Given that you have to replace a lab full of machines, they probably said something like "we can get 10 Macs or 20 PCs for the money we have available."
What would any administrator do, given that kind of choice?

Re:Schools not the best candidates for change

[rkhalloran]

I'm dating myself here, but back in my HS days (early 70's), I wrote a note to the service bureau my school was connected to asking for prices for manuals on the DEC boxes we were talking to. A week later a mid-sized carton landed on my doorstep with a *complete* set of manuals for the PDP-8 & -11 boxes. Definitely helped when we bought our own boxes my senior year.

When I got into the workplace, guess whose systems I recommended...

Re:Schools not the best candidates for change

[Bert64]

We were taught wordperfect in schools, and i used wordworth (on the amiga) at home, both were fairly similar... Later when forced to use word (95 i believe) i found it a wholly inferior product to wordperfect and wordworth, especially troublesome was placing a picture, and the fact the display isnt wysiwyg by default.

Re:Schools not the best candidates for change

[Bert64]

DEC were always good, from an end user perspective anyway, they catered to technical users and provided quality products.
Unfortunately, marketting is far more powerfull than product quality, DEC had all the end users impressed, but the managers were more impressed by flashy sales gimmicks and so-called "discounts" "Yes our product costs twice as much as theirs, but i`l give you 30% off!!"

Re:Schools not the best candidates for change

[ninejaguar]

Later when forced to use word (95 i believe) i found it a wholly inferior product to wordperfect and wordworth, especially troublesome was placing a picture, and the fact the display isnt wysiwyg by default.

That's not your fault. That's the fault of the product. People who've only learned Word have the same difficulty in using Word due to its inferiority and poor implementation of 'extended' word processing capabilities ('extended' meaning anything that notepad can't do). Despite its bugs, WordPerfect is probably the best realized word-processor on the market. Going to a lousy product such as Word takes only a matter reducing one's IQ points and giving up all hope for proper formatting.

= 9J =

I disagree.

[H.G. Pennypacker]

Open source is about choice. People should be able to stay with Microsoft if they want to. Why does anyone still on Windows have to be pestered by a swarm of open source gnats about their choice of OS?

Re:I disagree.

[oobob]

Open source is about choice. People should be able to stay with Microsoft if they want to. Why does anyone still on Windows have to be pestered by a swarm of open source gnats about their choice of OS?

I agree - people should be able to choose what OS and programs they run, which is why I'm so against OSS ninjas sneaking in the labs and my house at night, installing their versions of the software I love to pay for.

When you say pestered, I think you mean exposed to. How many non-techies do you know who've heard about OpenOffice or Firebird? After introducing most of my friends to tabbed browsing and pop-up blocking, there was no need to fall back on any OSS rhetoric. They saw that the program had useful features and decided to use them instead of the MS alternative. And as a former English major, I can say that many a starving artist loved the idea of a free word processor.

The OpenCD project is more a drive to make OSS as accessable to people who aren't that interested in computers as the MS alternative. Since so many MS products are "essential" to Windows, most people are introduced to Windows Media Player, IE, and other proprietary programs before having a chance to check out the competition. Since they can use these immediately, why would they find an alternative, especially when that requires researching an area that they're not particularly interested in? The open cd provides more of a fair playing field. Sadly, since MS is so insistent on bundling everything they have to force out competition, there's still a long ways to go.

Re:I disagree.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, Open Source may be about choice, but Free Software is about freedom.

No one should even need to be pestered about choosing freedom.

Re:I disagree.

[bogie]

"Why does anyone still on Windows have to be pestered by a swarm of open source gnats about their choice of OS?"

Because we as a nation foot the bill for MS products in one way or another. I nor any other opensource user really cares if you use Windows or not. It is however the duty of all opensource evangelists to pester Schools and Universities to support Free and Open Software when they are an option. For example if the local school is spending X amount of dollars on MS Office just so students can learn basic Office skills and do their homework, then something is wrong with the picture. Anytime out taxes enter the equation its ethically and financially wrong not to look into Free alternatives.

So basically yes people should not be bothering you personally because you use Windows, but Schools, Universities, and Government agencies who are not familiar with Free OpenSource apps should be beaten over the head till they understand that there are vialbe alternatives. If Microsoft happens to get booted from our educational system in the process, oh well.

Re:I disagree.

[Anonymous Coward]

"For example if the local school is spending X amount of dollars on MS Office just so students can learn basic Office skills and do their homework, then something is wrong with the picture."

Actually, I can buy MS Office XP Pro through my university for $5. You're not footing the bill for anything because the schools get this stuff almost for free from MS.

OpenOffice is far from what I'd call a "viable alternative." There's no guarantee that the presentation that I create with Impress on my PC at home will run on the Windows laptop in PowerPoint that is typically provided for students giving presentations in front of the class. If your grade or your job is on the line, use PowerPoint.

Re:I disagree.

[Lemmy Caution]

The whole "gnats" analogy is pretty depressing. After all, have gnats ever brought down a large beast? As a rule, the large beast just gets annoyed but keeps on going.

Re:I disagree.

[chthonicdaemon]

I for one don't like the idea of proprietary software. This argument is one of the reasons why Stallman doesn't like the wording 'Open Source' instead of 'Free software'. It's about what's important -- the freedom of the software. So call me a gnat, but I try to advocate the use of Free software and open standards.

In many cases I pester people for the same reason they pester me. They pester me to install Word because I dare to not be able to open their files. I pester them because they send me files I can't open or because I can't just copy the programs they used to make the documents because that would be illegal. It's not that hard to understand.

So...

[eurleif]

So this OpenCD just has some free (speach) software that runs on Windows? They need Linux, too. Knoppix, I say! Knoppix!

Re:So...

[Citizen Gold]

From the About page;
"The Open CD project aims to introduce users of MS-Windows to the benefits of Free and Open Source Software (FOSS)."

Don't you think users of an OSS OS would already be aware of these benefits?

Re:So...

[eurleif]

Yes. I'm saying that a Linux live CD such as Knoppix would be better for showing the benifits of free software.

Re:So...

[MadChicken]

Actually, when I was learning, I found ports tremendously useful. Apps are KEY. I had dual boot (actually, triple - DOS&Win3.1-OS/2-Linux) and I WANTED to use Linux but when I got there, I didn't know how to do stuff.

I found ports of things like tar, pine, gzip, lynx and perl to be the inertia I needed to boot into Linux and stay there.

Formatted Article

[Anonymous Coward]

A Monocultural Alternative: The OpenCD
Dr. Paul Cesarini
Assistant Professor,
BGSU College of Technology

A Brief History of The OpenCD / Resisting the Monoculture / The Future / Conclusions / Works Cited

Introduction: A Brief History of The OpenCD
In April of last year, Henrik Nilsen Omma was discouraged. He and other enthusiasts of freely distributable Open Source Software (OSS) such as the Linux operating system grew increasingly frustrated at the lack of widespread appeal of this and similar software, beyond the so-called "techie" crowd. They knew the problem was not with the software itself. Free software such as the excellent Mozilla web browser was feature-rich compared to its often-patched, yet feature-bereft Windows counterpart. The same could be said for OpenOffice, a full-featured, free office productivity suite that included many standard features unavailable in then-current versions of Microsoft Office. Nilsen Omma voiced his concerns in an article on Newsforge, one of the premier sites devoted to Linux and related OSS. In this article, titled An Idea for a Free Software CD, Nilsen Omma argued that:

"there are many hurdles when persuading people to switch to Free Software. Most people will not change their entire operating system just for fun; it's too unfamiliar, and they will lose the use of all their favorite programs at the same time. ...The key, as I see it, is to encourage people to use the high-quality Free Software now becoming available in the OS they are already using" (Nilsen Omma, 2002)

The article generated a great deal of interest from the open source community. At that point, Nilsen Omma set up a basic site for the project, dubbed The OpenCD. The goal was simple, if complicated: Create an Open Source showcase, where "new users can try out Open Source software in the comfort of their own, familiar operating system, rather than having to take the drastic step of reformatting their hard drive to install Linux". By focusing on showing the benefits of Open Source Software to a broader audience than that which typically uses it, Nilsen Omma hoped to encourage its adoption. (TheOpenCD, 2003)

Numerous volunteers joined and a considerable amount of time was spent debating the focus and scope of the project, coordinating tasks, and writing documentation. The group decided on releasing a CD, rather than just creating a site with download links to the respective programs. This decision was based on the fact that such sites already exist, and that the targeted demographic for the project -- those new to OSS -- might generally prefer not to have to download programs, and might instead prefer simple CD-based installation.

The result was the 1.0 version of The OpenCD, released as a freely downloadable ISO CD image, last December. Nilsen Omma acknowledges that going with an ISO is somewhat of a necessary evil, in that such disk images are typically meant for more technical users. However, the general assumptions is that these users will "download it, make CDs and give them to their less technical friends."

The criteria for determining which applications were included on the CD image were and still are fairly detailed, and involve a nomination process where testers review potential applications for quality, usability, and related factors. These testers then post their findings in forums on The OpenCD site, where further discussion takes place. The only "hard and fast" rule is that the CD image will not include two similar applications, even if bothare good. This is done to help reduce any likely confusion among the target demographic for the CD. Nilsen Omma considers this one of the projects best strengths. He asserts that their job "is to make difficult choices so that the user doesn't have to." (Nilsen Omma, personal communication, September 18, 2003)

While specifically hoping to attract "non-techies" to OSS, secondary and higher education institutions are also a key target group for this project. They have kept

Dont forget GNUWIN ..

[nurb432]

Though it seems to be a tad bit dated ( did they loose interest? ) its another good way to show people there are alternatives....

Re:Dont forget GNUWIN ..

[cant_get_a_good_nick]

GNUWin Maelstrom rules!!!! From a player from the old MacOS 7 days...

Re:Dont forget GNUWIN ..

[knuurius]

GNUWinII can be downloaded here: http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/en/index.html

I prefer to see us as ...

[burgburgburg]

fire ants, who through our concerted, stinging, burning efforts, have forced the slow-moving stupid beast to drop to one knee, confused and infuriated by the pain. If we redouble our efforts, hopefully we'll soon be feasting on big, dumb Microsoft carcas soon.

Re:I prefer to see us as ...

[DAldredge]

You must not live in an area that has a bad fire ant problem. They (fire ants) need to all be destroyed, and the use of multistage nukes should not be ruled out! No, there use should be encouraged.

(Can you tell I don't really care for fire ants?)

Re:I prefer to see us as ...

[Anonymous Coward]

You mightn't like them, but you gotta have a healthy dose of respect for them!

Re:I prefer to see us as ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I prefer us as intelligent humans, who, by a balance of competition and cooperation in an adaptive network, are outperforming other humans stuck in a hierarchical system that enjoyed much success but is stagnating.

Think Open Source == Free Market Capitalism, Microsoft = Centralised Soviet pseudocommunism.

Yes, that might be the opposite of what you've been propagandised to believe. But that's because your mind has been caught in the stupid double bind of intellectual "property" (which is a fundamentally inconsistent-with-reality notion.)

Likening our efforts and struggles to simpler critters endeavours is invalid.

Re:I prefer to see us as ...

[Anonymous Coward]

More like piss ants.

Re:I prefer to see us as ...

[Bert64]

True, Free Software and Open Source are closer to communism, not the pseudo communism which existed in the USSR, but rather the true ideal of communism, which unfortunately never existed and simply got corrupted. It also fits with the idea of a free market and of capitalism, having something as widely used as software available for free benefits a large number of people and business interests, propriatory software only benefits the relatively small number of people selling it.
The USSR was more of a dictatorship than a communist system, they marched under the banner of communism simply because it was popular at the time. They rose to power via military force, rather than as a gradual evolution towards communism as marx envisioned. And then held on to power with the same military force. Microsoft work in much the same way, they are not competing on the free market by providing cheaper and/or superior products, they are competing by trying to put down the competition rather than simply providing a superior product.

Similar to ...

[nicodaemos]

... relation between Open Source and Microsoft as: "one of gnats swarming around a large, slow-moving beast."

Funny, I would have described it as "one of flies swarming around a large pile of shiat."

Re:Similar to ...

[Dav3K]

If I had mod points to give, your post would be the winner. Made me laugh

Re:Similar to ...

[edwdig]

Are you trying to say the Slashdot crowd likes to eat shit?

That would help explain why there's so many goatse.cx links around here...

Re:Similar to ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny, I would have described it as "one of flies swarming around a large pile of shiat."

perhaps you're new here, and are therefore unaware. we can actually use the word SHIT here on slashdot. spelling it 'shiat' when there is no content filter forcing you to do it just makes you seem like a moron.

Re:Similar to ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps you must are old here.

You've forgotten that EVERYONE here is a moron. Especially AC's who feel compelled to tell others what they should write.

Yes, this could be construed as self-referential.

mirrors

[millette]

Here are a few mirrors: http://www.mirror.ac.uk/sites/gd.tuwien.ac.at/pc/O penCD/ ftp://ftp.mirror.ac.uk/sites/gd.tuwien.ac.at/pc/Op enCD/

I've verified it's the newer version, dating yesterday.

Re:mirrors

[millette]

oups, I forgot this list of mirrors, but I'm not sure how current it is:
http://ftp.ula.ve/www.theopencd.org/mirrors.html

Re:Mirrors

[cant_get_a_good_nick]

How'd this get modded up when every one of his www links fail? as the sign says...
Use the Preview Button! Check those URLs!

Re:mirrors

[BiggyP]

here's a fairly complete mirror of the site(minus forum obviously)

http://biggyp.host.sk/theopencd/

not sure how long it'll last though...

Re:Mirrors

[kent_eh]

Here is the BitTorrent of TheOpenCD ISO.

When I was in school...

[BagOBones]

They taught word processing, and how to use a spread sheet. It really didn't matter what system it was on because the schools never taught anything but the general concepts.

Innovation in office products? Don't you mean bloat.

Word already does over 100 things I don't need it to do when I am writing a paper. You think it needs more?

Re:When I was in school...

[Coryoth]

There's an implicit bit of thinking there that "innovation"=="more features and buttons" which has, I guess, been promoted by a lot of software houses in the effort to sell their latest set of minor new bells and whistles. It's still a "too many clocks" syndrome. Rather than adding a new clock to the car and calling it innovation, why not redesign the engine - or create some cunning gearing system that gives the benefits of a manual with the ease of use of an automatic.

Innovative new office products might have LESS bell and whistle features, and instead have some cunning new system that SIMPLIFIES the interface and simply makes it easier to do what you want to do.

Don't mistake "innovation" for "bloat", bloat is what happens when you used half assed quick and easy innovation instead really doing something creative.

Jedidiah

Re:When I was in school...

[owlstead]

Writing a paper with word is something you just should not do. Please use something else like a tagged language. Word tends to seriously mess up your formatting (and you don't need that at that stage).

Not that OpenOffice is much better for this. It's just not suited for WYSIWYG editors. If you really don't like tags: use an editor that does not allow individual formatting, or a GUI front end for a tagged language. Even writing HTML through a tool might be a good alternative option.

Word is for writing letters.

Re:When I was in school...

[hamsterboy]

I love the dichotomy. We all want computers that just do what we want them to and get out of the way the rest of the time, but we don't want software that babies us too much.

For the 100 things Word does that you don't want it to do: dollars to donuts there are at least 10 that speed up your personal paper-writing process. Innovation is getting to be pretty difficult in office software; there are only so many things you can do better when you're still communicating on pressed sheets of shredded wet wood. MS has tried a few, and I bet there are some that actually use some of those 100 other things. What? Well...well, no, not me, but...well, that's not the point.

Can you think of something you'd want Word to do that it doesn't do? Okay, something that's actually possible, given the limitations of computers in general?

Hamster

Re:When I was in school...

[Anonymous Coward]

While I still agree with you about avoiding word, at this stage there is something to be said for _GOOD_ WYSIWIG DTP programs to write a paper- Adobe springs to mind, and perhaps Scribus will be good enough soon. Obviously, if you're writing a paper in a maths-heavy subject, LaTeX/AMSTex is still the best choice, but for arts papers, a wordprocessor/dtp package *just a better one than word* is adequate.

Re:When I was in school...

[drinkypoo]

Word is an attempt to do desktop publishing with a word processing interface. The fact that it is successful is a testament both to Microsoft's determination and its failure to innovate. Try using Pagemaker sometime; Pagemaker's failure is that the story editor is craptacular, well that and the amazingly high pricetag. There's also Quark, which frankly I don't know much about. I'm a Pagemaker user. But anyway, Word's interface is cumbersome when you're creating highly formatted documents, but they wanted to add that kind of functionality to Word, and now it sucks. They should really merge Word and Publisher; a successful product would be able to act like either, or like a DTP package like Quark or PM, and also behave like wordpad or even notepad if you wanted. There's no reason why not, they just want to keep people using the same old interface, probably to keep them tied to the "Microsoft Word" brand name, which is old and venerable if not respected.

Re:When I was in school...

[chthonicdaemon]

I can think of one big thing: Automatic layout of graphics so that they are near their references and so that text flows nicely around them. This is the biggest thing I have against gui tools for documents with figures and tables -- it becomes hell to move them around only to find that now the next page is only half filled with text.

Also, I use Matlab for large scale data analysis. Large Monte Carlo simulations cannot be aggregated in Excel. I incorporate the results in my LaTeX file as an include, so when I change the simulation the results change automatically in my document.

If you have a Word solution to these issues, please let me know.

A similar offering

[cos(0)]

A software compilation to the OpenCD is the

Open Source Software CD

...which is updated monthly with the latest versions of the most popular, high-quality open-source software out there.

Anyone can download it via BitTorrent.

Be sure to check it out.

Re:A similar offering

[CanadaDave]

I'm downloading the torrent. Please download as well, so it will go faster. Thanks.

Re:A similar offering

[CanadaDave]

Forget it, I've got 4.5 MBit/s already.

Re:A similar offering

[kavau]

..or GNUWin II: Has Windows versions of many programs the Linux community can't live without anymore: gcc, Gimp, OpenOffice, and many more!

Re:A similar offering

[I Be Hatin']

Hmmm... an Open Source Software CD. Intriguing concept... Now if you can get the Oog seal of approval, you might really have something there.

Mirrors

[CanadaDave]

It's slashdotted already... mirrors?

Open Source/Microsoft Relationship

[jetkust]

He describes the relation between Open Source and Microsoft as: "one of gnats swarming around a large, slow-moving beast."

...Or one of fly's swarming around a hot piece of sh*t.

Does he cite the lack of innovation....

[Anonymous Coward]

...on the OSS side? Or the lack of even making apps stable and usable for Joe User? Seriously.

OpenOffice is a joke, and until it is fixed, it isn't going to supplant MSOffice on anyone's computer other than the rabid MS haters.

IE and Office

[harlows_monkeys]

Interesting examples of lack of innovation, considering that in the case of Office, no open source office suite comes close. The best we've got in open source are things like OpenOffice, which are good enough to painfully get by with. No other commercial office suite comes close, either.

Re:IE and Office

[Anonymous Coward]

That may be true, but from the pont of view of educational use, it rather misses the point. How many of the 10^26 features of word does the average school kid actually need? Pretty few I guess. So, from that point of view, it really doesn't matter which office suite they choose - MS Office, Wordperfect, Openoffice, Gnome Office, Smartsuite, Appleworks, MS Works, et al. all do the majority of things that are required for a school project.

Having said all of that; when I was at school, the only computers were Acorn Archemedies (Acorn were quite big in UK education at one time - the BBC was ubiquitous in primary schools, along with the turtle attachement for drawing geometric patterns using LOGO). At the time, we intensley disliked the computers. They weren't PCs like we all had at home, they didn't run windows and they didn't do all the "cool stuff" that you could do with PCs (although I forget exactly what cool stuff I wanted to do...). In retrospect, not only were the Archemedies very cool (the GUI was excellent; to open a file one would drag it from a disk onto the application window, all commands were accessed using the middle mouse button long before microsoft introduced context menus, etc.), but we were also forced to use non-standard (i.e. non Wintel) applcations (although I forget their names at the moment). This meant that people had to learn the principles of how word processors, databses and spreadsheets work rather than the specifics of the Microsoft interface. For example, there was no "Autotable" wizard to help you create a database table (we did create databases; I suspect that's now been supplanted by creating websites in Dreamweaver or some other 'skill'), you had to have enough understanding to set all the field names and datatypes yourself (including the difference between say, an integer and a float). So in that way, we probably all learnt more than we would have done in a pure Wintel setup. In fact the school has replaced all the Arcs with PCs now - and my younger sister (who attends the same school) sems to think that Dreamweaver is how you create web pages, Word is how you write text files, and so on. Why is that a good thing?

Hmm. I wonder what happened to all those old Arcs. I'd really like to own one now...

Re:IE and Office

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because it's the best out there doesn't prove it's moved anywhere in the past six years. Seriously. The difference between Office 97 and Office 2003 is just in the number. Sadly, Office 97 also beats all open source competitors, too...for now.

The difference is, the competition is getting better. Office isn't.

And you forgot about IE. That's a project that's been stagnating since 1998 and already compares very poorly to its faster-moving competition.

Re:IE and Office

[CommandNotFound]

What's painful about OpenOffice? If you want more fonts and clip art, buy StarOffice, which uses compatible file formats with OOo.

Re:IE and Office

[Fancia]

Mainly that OpenOffice has menus that are really, really *slow.* I prefer AbiWord for my word processing.

Re:IE and Office

[ProtonMotiveForce]

You seem to assume every piece of software will somehow revolutionize itself every 6 months. Get a grip.

Re:IE and Office

[mijok]

Exactly what innovations have we seen in IE lately!? I use mozilla+mouse gestures+multizilla all the time at home (on linux) and whenever I'm forced to use IE somewhere it feels like a browser that was obsolete years ago, oh wait...it actually was! It's so frustrating to use IE when you're used to clicking the middle mouse button to load links in the background and making gestures with the mouse to add bookmarks/open windows/close windows/move back/move forward/reload... (it's a long list).

Re:IE and Office

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry but that really sounds quite gay. I can just picture you swirling your mouse around like some sort of queer wizard trying to open a new browser. It really makes me want to vomit.

Re:IE and Office

[Anonymous Coward]

I prefer LyX. And for spreadsheets, Gnumeric..

Graphical stuff? Xfig, sodipodi, gimp...

Re:IE and Office

[MrResistor]

How many of the 10^26 features of word does the average school kid actually need?

I think that's the wrong question. The real question, which you touched on later in your comment, is how many of those features are they better off without?

There have been studies that have linked the availability of spelling and grammar checkers to a decline in writing ability in college freshmen. Of course, that comes as no suprise to those of us who actually know how to properly construct a sentence and have witnessed the tragedy that is the MS grammar checker.

Not I.

[aaron_ds]

Most schools are immersed in a Windows monoculture.
My highschool was quite the opposite, Most of the computers ran MacOS, with a few running win98/xp, and none running any kind of open/free software.
It's great that a CD like this was made becasue people need to be given a chioce. However, I hope this doesn't become a war of dogmas (free/ proprietary). As nothing good can come of that.

Choose Windows?

[freeweed]

I'll play devil's advocate here:

Most (and by most, I mean pretty much 99.99%) Windows users do not use Windows because of choice.

They use it because it came with their computer. They've become familiar with it and figure it's the best there is, because "hey, it sells the most".

They use it because they've never heard of anything else. If they have heard, they're too scared to try. If they've tried it, they've gone back to Windows because there is no viable alternative for them.

They use it because their workplace makes them use it, and a surprising number of people take work home with them.

They use it because their ISP only supports it. Or their hardware only supports it. Or, little Jimmy down the street who is "good with computers" supports it, because he can click more efficiently than they can.

I think I've met maybe 5 people in my life who actually CHOOSE to use Windows, when presented with viable alternatives for what they do.

No one in the OSS movement (well, no one sane) advocates forcing people to get off of Windows. What they do advocate is educating users so that they CAN make a choice, which in most cases, is currently unavailable.

Re:Choose Windows?

[Kenja]

Your right, they dont advocate forcing people not to use Windows. They, like you, just claim that anyone using Windows must be being forced to do so and should be liberated. I choose to use Windows becuase (are you ready for this) it runs the software I want to use. Linux, BSD, Macintosh, Solaris, IRIX, BeOS, Palm etc do not. Yet I get Linux advocates telling me I should use Linux all the time. Dispite it not running the apps I want and in many cases dosn't have anything even close to what I need a computer to do.

Re:Choose Windows?

[Hermione Kestrel]

I'm a Gamer.

I choose Windows.

Re:Choose Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

I choose Windows also at home because it runs the apps I want and is stable. My experience with Linux at work is that it is not stable for desktop. Of our 5 linux boxes for engineering work, we get about one crash a day that locks up the whole box. Can't even ssh in usually.

Re:Choose Windows?

[q.kontinuum]

This might be right for You and the Software You need. For most schoolars its not. They could do pretty well with OpenOffice, Mozilla and stuff like that. For the most technical subjects there is enough educational software available as well, plus some software development tools for programming lessons, a data-base and a better networking support. Why should a proprietary, expensive (well, not expensive for the schoolars, but expensive for those who are blinded for other choices later on) System be the default? If you need so special Software which is only for MS-Windows available (btw: I do as well, my PC at work runs Windows because I need a cross-compiler which is only avalable for MS-Systems) you are probably flexible enough to change to Windows for that purpose.

Re:Choose Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

I choose Ralph.

Re:Choose Windows?

[pctainto]

You contradict yourself...

Most (and by most, I mean pretty much 99.99%) Windows users do not use Windows because of choice.

They've become familiar with it

And therefore, they choose Windows. Take for instance XMMS. I get on Linux and I want to enqueue an MP3 into XMMS by right-clicking on the mp3 file and selecting enqueue. I have to write a script that does that or find one already written. On windows though, I install WinAmp and it automatically adds that option to the right-clicking window.

Windows users are the average Joe that want to spend as little time as possible understanding their OS as possible -- they just want to ust the programs. Linux distros today take time and effort to get the functionality that usually comes without any help on their part on Windows or Windows apps

Re:Choose Windows?

[t0ny]

You say most people use Windows because they arent 'given' choices. I have dealt with TONS of users, and I have a quite different opinion- they use it because they have adequate skills using it, and because they dont CARE to know anything else.

Why should a doctor, lawyer, CEO, or even secretary have to learn all the ins and outs of a new OS? THEY DONT CARE!!! They are too concerned with being doctors, lawyers, CEOs, secretaries, etc. These people arent computer geeks, and for the most part they arent even the slightest bit interested in knowing how the OS works.

If it does what they need it to do, they are happy. They arent computer geeks, and they dont concern themselves with the fact that Linux can make their word processor work 10% faster than WinXP/OfficeXP. They know how to use it, and thats all they need.

Another point- every time I see one of those silly "d00d, I used WinXP for xxx days, and HAT3D IT!!!1111" articles that pop up here every so often, the first thing the (BSD, Linux, OSX, MacOS, etc) user starts whining about is how the interface isnt what they are used to using, the browser doesnt work the same, they dont have some custom app they are used to working with, etc. You know what? They are acting just like the doctor, lawyer, CEO, or secretary in my example above. They are complaining about the fact that WinXP doesnt function as the OS they are accustomed to using.

Anyway, as far as choice goes, people are free to use whatever OS they want. If they are so desperate to have an OSS OS on their machine, Gates isnt going to come to their house and bitch-slap them for installing it. Saying they dont have choice because it isnt a pre-install option is a weak, cop-out answer. Most people, given the choice, would just stick with what they already know. Which is, in the majority of cases, Windows.

Re:Choose Windows?

[BiggyP]

well, if that's the most useful and productive thing you can concievably do with your machine, then i guess windows is the logical option...

oh, ever heard of WINE(x) by the way?

Re:Choose Windows?

[Peaker]

In KDE 3 they just click the MP3 files for them to be enqueued in their Noatun application.

In KDE 3 users can organize their separate tasks into separate desktops. In Windows they have to take the time and effort and download one of the (half-assed, if I may add) desktop support applications. Windows today takes time and effort to get the functionality that usually comes without any help on their part on KDE 3.

Re:Choose Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Guess who doesn't use ACL's?

Not to mention installing software, HAHAHA. Oh god. Compare upgrading Mozilla 1.2.1 on Redhat 9 out of the box to any IE upgrade. Or hell, installing mozilla on windows.

KDE is pretty, no doubt, but seriously, windows has a number of advantages in functionality.

Re:Choose Windows?

[provocative]

No one in the OSS movement (well, no one sane) advocates forcing people to get off of Windows.

"OSS" and "sane" in the same sentence.. you are kidding right?

Re:Choose Windows?

[jrockway]

Maybe they shouldn't be using computers anyway. A typewriter is much easier to use than Word (oh, never mind, you have to spell correctly... no squiggles when you 'mispell' a word), a notebook stores notes quite nicely. If you're *typesetting*, then a computer is essential, but for memos it is a waste. Computers are good at doing math. Computers are good for writing computer programs. That's what they're for. Quake and Word are bastrdizations of the microcontroller.

Re:Choose Windows?

[cmacb]

I don't think the issue is so much with individuals and what software they choose to use. If you are an avid game player and have to have Windows to run your games that's fine. Do so at home, with my blessing. In business and government, it's another matter, particularly in government. Here are my two first hand experiences... compare with your own...

At the Department of Energy I worked with a group of 100 or so OS/2 users. This was back in the early 90s. They loved OS/2 and had no desire to change. As an autonomous department, they technically could run any software they wanted. However when it came time to upgrade their PCs to a newer generation of hardware they were given an ultimatum: Switch to Windows or keep your old PCs. They eventually switched.

At another well known federal agency there is a group of people who love IBM computers and operating systems. There is also a group of people who hate IBM and anything connected with them. More importantly these two groups hate each other and are in constant conflict. Since their systems have to talk to one another there is ample opportunity to stab each other in the back... cause something to fail (or just wait for a natural occurence) and then try and blame the other group.

Many years ago the anti-IBM crowd decided to build a system based on Wang mini-computers. The system basically sucked, but it wasn't a good career move to say so. The only reason they migrated off the Wang systems was that Wang went out of business. In fact they ran the system out of used parts for quite a while before declaring the situation an "emergency" which meant that huge amounts of money were spent for a quick conversion effort that should instead have been carefully planned.

They picked Windows as their new target architecture. I'm not sure that this was necessarily a bad decision, and in fact there were parts of the "plan", such as it was, that tried to encourage the use of "standards based" softare. This means that you write your programs to use, to the extent possible, generic SQL (for example) rather than Oracle, DB/2, or SQL Server syntax. Because it was an "emergency" however, these sound business concepts were ignored and the system became locked into specific DBMS/Compiler/Operating system ways of doing things. Seven years later and the system is still buggy as hell. The application is written in a now non-supported programming language, but the only fix for this would be another total re-write.

At one point a group I was involved with was asked to recommend some statistical analysis software to allow for ad-hoc queries of this 7 years worth of data. Using live data the analyst compared several potential products and rated them. As part of the summary he pointed out that while several of the proposed products were quite capable, he had noticed during the tests that almost no column of values in the database had sufficiently enough valid data points (both missing and mangled values) to draw any statistical inferences, no matter what product they picked. Both analyst and report were "shuffled off to Buffalo" never to be seen again.

I was there for another year or so after that. There was begrudging talk about the lack of wisdom in continuing to rely on non-supported components. Jokes about the similarity to the Wang systems were getting too common. They went to one of the top consulting firms for independent outside advice (a very good idea in my opinion). After months of study, they issued an analysis of just one of the many applications there. Not surprisingly they said it was too dependant on the quirks and features of a particular DBMS. It also was using outmoded client/server methodologies and of course the non-supported compiler was full of bugs as was the resultant application. They also threw in some concerns about Windows security, which was just starting to show up on the radar for large geographically dispersed organizations (network dependencies).

I was encouraged by the

Re:Choose Windows?

[Jacer]

Have you ever considered that linux just really doesn't have the software base for my needs? I use linux on my webserver and on my laptop (used mostly to maintain my web stufs, or rdp into my xp box when I'm on the go.) I'm not just some wanker zealot saying that linux is dying, but yes, I use both, and I would never use linux on my main desktop. Collectively, because they don't have a instant message client equal to Trillian. Most of my contacts use MSN, but a few use either icq, aim, or even yahoo, I really don't like to piss with having more than one im client open. My second major use for my computer is music, which isn't really an issue with xmms. Third is games. Yep, lots of games. They have WineX ect but with the really poor direct x functionality, it's all dieing soon, further more I'm not going to pay montly to play a game, that and they suck are the two reasons I refuse to play MMORPG's. So, only does two of the three things I use my computer for. Maybe folks aren't as misinformed as you make them out to be.

Re:Choose Windows?

[t0ny]

Maybe they shouldn't be using computers anyway. A typewriter is much easier to use than Word (oh, never mind, you have to spell correctly... no squiggles when you 'mispell' a word), a notebook stores notes quite nicely. If you're *typesetting*, then a computer is essential, but for memos it is a waste. Computers are good at doing math. Computers are good for writing computer programs. That's what they're for. Quake and Word are bastrdizations of the microcontroller.

Actually, I recommend we issue each person an abacus, and clay tablets so they can just write in cuneiform. We can also replace our plumbing with wooly mamoths, and make our cars with two large round rocks connected by logs, which we power buy 'running' under our car.

WILMA!!!!

Re:Choose Windows?

[Malcontent]

He didn't say nobody chose linux just that most people don't. You are in the small percentage of the people who chose linux.

Also keep in mind that there are other reasons to avoid MS software. Many people choose not to use MS software for ethical or moral reasons for example.

BTW what software are you talking about?

Re:Choose Windows?

[MsGeek]

user@host/~#apt-get install mozilla
How easy is that?
Knoppix is the future, baby! Debian without tears! knx-hdinstall your Windows nightmares away!
However, if you've got to run Windows, the new OpenCD is pretty damn slick. Put a Knoppix CD and an OpenCD in people's Christmas stockings this year. They'll love you for it!

Re:Choose Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, I use it by choice. Looking at the four computers in this room, I could have my choice of Windows 2000 Pro, Windows 2000 Server, Knoppix ( installed to the HD ), or RedHat 9 with Ximian. I am sitting behind the Win2K Pro box, because I woke up early and I need to get some work done. Just checked /. for my daily does of ignorance.

So why the Linux systems? Hehe, I installed the RedHat system for my wife, she digs it. Likes the cool board games, screensavers, etc. The Knoppix thing is just for fun, and to have a decent LAMP system to play with.

Yet here I am, reading /. on Win2K. That is because I am about to get started on some work, and Linux simply is not ready for what I consider work. You guessed it...Photoshop is king, and .NET development just isn't happening on Linux, call me when mono is ready and you have an IDE that comares to VStudio.NET or Primal Code. Peace.

Re:Choose Windows?

[Henk Poley]

Good point, but you oversaw one major point.

[btw, replace Linux with Mac OS X, or maybe another *NIX version, if you want]

What most of the Linux advocates are trying to tell is that even though most people don't want to know or even care about their OS, they really should. Windows is less secure than Linux, by design(-mistakes). Yes, Linux can be made insecure too, but a pretty standard install with some version of KDE/Gnome a bunch of office programs and browser(s) is way more secure than a standard Windows install will be in it's current form. (AFAIK a recently bought Windows copy is still vulnerable to the LoveSan worm)

Or, you could also tell it the other way around. If most people used Linux, then "windows advocates" would probably be laughed about by computer savvy people. In such a world ordinary people' may not care.

The last couple of times the internet was slowed down by massive attacks were all caused by Microsoft Windows machines. There are people that care about the technological structures that are in place now.

Yes, I do know Linux is not the answer to everything. But the way it is now is dangerous. What people advocating Linux are picky about is how it became what it is today.

Re:Choose Windows?

[Richard_at_work]

Now this takes the biscuit!! Half the time the demographic on slashdot are moaning that MS 'illegally' bundles stuff with windows, the other half they complain that KDE/Gnome can, thanks to bundled software, do things that Windows cannot do without downloading and installing software!

Either accept that windows needs to include more and more functionality (can you imagine purchasing an OS these days without such an important component, integral or not, such as a web browser? neither can I), or stop bitching, please!

Re:Choose Windows?

[Niet3sche]

Remember, MS has more than Windows in its arsenal. I hate the OS, and all my server-side / data-stores use EnGarde Secure Linux, from Guardian Digital (the CEO is a sharp guy who is - get this - an ENGINEER! Running a company in this day and age of accountants! It's great). Anyway - the ONLY thing that keeps one of my computers bound up to MS (well, two, actually) are their: * Office suite - Sorry, but OpenOffice still isn't [i]quite[/i] there; respectfully, I still think that MS has the edge there - though with Activation crap in Office 2003, I'll likely keep using Office 2k/XP and then make the next move to OpenOffice when they get a bit more interoperable (with regard to formats coming out the SAME on every machine ... a bit like the old TeX idea - write once, publish anywhere)... * Adobe PageMaker - In my university, we're editing the AOM (Academy of Management) journal for a 3-year stretch, and I'm the go-to guy for layout, etc. I work with the actual editor and he made the call to go with PM ... it wasn't my call, but he said that the layout folks use PM so we could get it to press faster. PM isn't, say, as robust as Quark (from what I hear) ... but hey, it's reasonably good at what it does. And (from what I know) there is no *nix port available.

So, for me, it's NOT about the OS at all - it's about the ancilaries, the applications and packages that can run on WinTel boxes and not *nix. And, don't get me wrong, I *HATE* the fact that I'm being held back by these 2 packages ... but we have to realize that it's not technological prowess that's keeping MS afloat - it's solid market share. Incidentally, I happen to badly want to run OSX ... but seeing as how it's a $3500 operating system, for all practical purposes, it's out of my league right now. :(

BTW: I'm a *nix freak but I don't believe in converting the heathens FOR WHOM THEIR OS DOES EVERYTHING THEY WANT/NEED/REQUIRE. It is, to me, about freedom of choice. And when you hold a gun to someone's head, it doesn't matter if the logo on it is a goofy 4-paned fluttering window or a cute penguin ... or a cute devil - the result is the same. I understand that I'm going to get MegaFlamed for this, but it is what I believe: I love my *nix boxes, and they sure do have their place with my important data stores and web/db/ftp access ... and I run them headless for the most part - but they're not for everyone.

But I still hope to hell that a ton of MS users jump ship looking for a more secure operating system - or at least one made by a company that takes security seriously.

Re:Choose Windows?

[DGolden]

You appear to be confusing multitudes of different people with different opinions on /. with one hive mind. Life isn't really like that.

Re:Choose Windows?

[ajs318]

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Computers have no place in most classrooms. Before you attempt to do anything the machine-way, you should first understand how to do it the hand-way. That means you don't let your kids have a digital watch till they can tell the time by an analogue watch, you don't let them use a calculator till they can do long multiplication and division, and so forth. That was how it was done in my day, and it never did me any harm. I learned to write with a pencil {and learned to spell during the process}, then a fountain pen when I could use a pencil and not break the lead or make too many mistakes, then a mechanical typewriter, then a word processor. And over my time I have used home-made word processing software and Wordwise Plus on the BBC; Scribble, Wordworth and Protext on the Amiga; New York Word, WordStar, WordPerfect and MS Word for DOS; EVE on a VAX 11/750; MacWrite and MS Word for Mac; WordStar, WordPerfect, Ami, MS Word and OpenOffice.org Writer on Windows; and Open Office, AbiWord and KWord on Linux. In my experience, there is not a great deal of relearning to be done whn moving from any one to any other {though I confess, I still have to spend a few minutes remembering it is not ctrl-A and ctrl-E for beginning and end of line everyt ime I use MS Word immediately after Pico}.

When I was at school, it was all BBC computers {shows my age} and anyone who used a computer had no choice but to be a hacker. The manual shew you how to write simple programmes and how to talk to the I/O ports {actually BBC BASIC was a very nice programming language - calculated GOTO and all, nice to be able to avoid but indispensable when you really needed it}, then pretty much left you to it. So in the chemistry labs we rigged up a pH meter to a computer and got it plotting a graph of pH against time for a simple acid-alkali titration {open burette valve when computer beeps, close after 0.5ml of solution has gone in, wait for pH to stabilise, keep going} and in CDT we even had a BBC Master controlling a mini-lathe {not built in-house - even by that stage there were a few readymade applications}. I remember seeing it used for making adaptors that would screw into a generic light fitting to make a table lamp.

The difference was that we were not forced to use our computers in a way that conformed to someone else's ideals. There was less raw power, but what there was was better utilised. With today's closed-source software and proprietary interfaces, doing anything like that would be a nightmare today. {Actually the software then was closed source, but the APIs and buses were fully documented, and 6502 assembly language was pretty understandable to the hackers of the day.}

Re:Choose Windows?

[MadChicken]

When I feel like playing games, I turn on my PS2.

When I don't mind fighting video driver issues, background tasks, disk errors and infinite controller variations, I play games on Windows.

Re:Choose Windows?

[Glamdrlng]

No one in the OSS movement (well, no one sane) advocates forcing people to get off of Windows. What they do advocate is educating users so that they CAN make a choice, which in most cases, is currently unavailable.

Here's the one problem with wanting to educate users and let them make a choice: Most users don't want to be educated. They don't care how it works, they just want it to work. Microsoft is entrenched because of the clueless millions who account for 99% of home users. And even if they have a choice, what do you think they'll choose? It's kind of like when The Man Show asked women, "If there was an operation you could get that made you twice as smart, but made your ass bigger, would you do it?" Just imagine asking that 99%, "If there was a free reliable operating system that gave you total control over your system, but in order to get anything done you were occasionally required to rub two brain cells together, would you use it?"

Re:Choose Windows?

[Bert64]

Virtually all of such users have adequate skills with windows because they had no choice but to learn it, and having been presented with something else, would have learned that too... people used to do their word processing on dos and had no trouble with it. Had these users started out on any other system, they would now have adequate skills on that system and not want to change either...
Assuming that both windows and say Linux or BSD are adequate for the tasks you need, surely it makes sense to use linux or bsd, if purely because of cost.
Remember, a system thats 10% faster will run comparably on a system thats 10% slower, thus cheaper.

Everyone has to learn to use windows, if they learned to use linux or macos first, then they would stick with that, exactly like you said.. The fact it doesn`t come preinstalled means people dont become familiar with it. As you already said, these people arent computer geeks, they dont want to go searching for an os to use, they use whatever is sold to them with the hardware, and then become dependant on it... rather like a drug.
So really, these people`s initial choices are taken away from them, thus forcing them into a path of dependance on a product that most likely was never the best solution for them.
Think of it like smoking, once you start, its difficult to stop, even tho it was never a good idea to start in the first place.

Re:Choose Windows?

[Bert64]

Gaim (gaim.sourceforge.net) is a nice multi-network im client, all your contacts come up in a single list with different icons to differentiate the protocol in use, and the chats with them come up in a single tabbed window, again with the icons to differentiate the protocol. I use it primarily for aim, but sometimes for yahoo aswell.. i avoid msn on principle and will continue to do so, besides.. all my friends who do use msn, also use aim or icq aswell.
Games are the one reason i still have a dual-boot install of windows on a single machine, for any purpose other than games i use one of my unix workstations, and even then i play games under linux when there is a native version available.

Re:Choose Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

user@host/~#apt-get install mozilla How easy is that?

Well...

E: Could not open lock file /var/lib/dpkg/lock - open (13 Permission denied)
E: Unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/), are you root?

But seriously, I totally agree. My main distro of choice is Debian. I just love Knoppix and OpenCD. My burner is probably going to burn out burning them for Xmas.

Re:Choose Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Note the pound sign at the command prompt? That's the indication that j00 h4v3 r007.

Yes, you need to do this from a root shell or su to root.

This is Slashdot. I thought this sort of thing went without saying. Oh well.

Re:Choose Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Note the "user@" part of the command prompt? That's the indication that j00 do not h4v3 r007. (Hint: run PS1='\u@\h:\w# '). This is Slashdot. I thought this sort of thing went without saying. Oh well.

Innovation lacking in Open Source as well

[cmorriss]

and emphasises the lack of innovation in Internet Explorer and MS-Office.

So often Microsoft is decried as unoriginal with all its products and with this I certainly agree. However, and I'm not trying to troll here, rarely have I seen Open Source software do anything but the same.

Most innovation comes from small closed source companies that have an idea and want to make some money off of it. Microsoft moves forward by either emulating these companies or buying them outright. Open Source software seems to move forward almost exclusively through emulating these innovative companies (Either directly or indirectly by emulating Microsoft).

Almost all open source software provides a piece of functionality already provided in closed source or non-"free as in beer" software

This all begs the question, why doesn't open source encourage more innovation? I really don't know why. Does anyone else have an answer to this?

Re:Innovation lacking in Open Source as well

[Anonymous Coward]

Innovation in general is hard. There's a lot of inertia to new things. And people make up their minds about new things in seconds. This, with the vast increases in human knowledge, the explosions in the multidues of ways to accomplish similar ends and the ever increasing specialization of people's sphere's of expertise "new" might be sexy, but there's a lot of inertia to overcome. Companies like Microsoft, are large and suffer quite a bit from the inertia of their own bulk, but they have the capital to move the market, at least for a little while, giving some of their ideas a better chance. Linux contributors are the market, they are few, and small, and in all but the most extreme rule proving circumstances, they can't turn all eyes on them. Why hasn't linux moved completely away from unix style permissions yet? A lot of people like it, and change is hard even though something like ACL's is a much better alternative.

There are a couple of ways to win in spite of this. Have and see to fruition an idea so fantastic it will last for years or decades even in the fast evolving field of computers. And then slowly, through word of mouth build up a large enough critical mass that can help moxe the market to support that idea and its refinement.

De-babbelize software and software development. With an objective to standardize both expectations and componants from lead programmers to end users. This probably isn't even a slightly realistic dream for decades yet. Too bad too.

Re:Innovation lacking in Open Source as well

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe you mean "raises the question." Begging the question means something entirely different.

Re:Innovation lacking in Open Source as well

[An Onerous Coward]

Okay, I'll bite.

First, I'll admit that there isn't a whole lot of fundamental innovation when it comes to end user desktop software. Gnome and KDE take a lot of their interface decisions from Windows and Macintosh. Mozilla's interface is comparable to IE. GIMP has a totally different interface from any other image manipulation system I've seen, but from a functionality standpoint, it's not doing anything too far above and beyond the call of duty (unless you can master the Lisp-iness of their filter language).

A lot of this "lack of innovation" is due to the fact that people have come to expect these applications to behave in a given way, and the applications have to live within that framework. Another is due to the difficulty in discerning just what new and wonderful features can be added to the system. For example, I can't think of a single thing that I could suggest adding to Microsoft Word that would be gratefully used by more than a few percent of the user base.

Where the real innovation occurs is in niche applications and other small projects. BitTorrent, anyone? FreeNet, Wiki, Slashcode... all strike me as impressive, non-trivial ideas. The Linux kernel is constantly adding new features, and the development methodology is about as innovative as anything I can think of in the computing industry.

Finally, a lot of "innovation" is simply programmers implementing what the users suggested. If you have an idea for a nifty new feature in a software project, drop the developers a line. If it's not something of the "Sharks with friggin' laser beams" variety, they'll probably be grateful for the interest.

Re:Innovation lacking in Open Source as well

[UserGoogol]

I believe you mean "raises the question." Begging the question means something entirely different.

"Begging the question" means circular logic, but it also literally means to beg a question, which is a phrase worth using. "Raise the question" merely means that stating something causes new questions to become apparent. "Beg the question" is a bit stronger. It says (more or less) that the question is pleaded to be asked.

This implies that the question needs to be answered, instead of just coming about tangentially. It is a stronger phrase, and people, as a rule, like using stronger phrases.

I'll agree with the page that educated people should probably avoid the phrase, because it can cause confusion, but "beg the question" is too useful a phrase in the parent's sense, whereas "beg the question" in the sense of the fallacy is too easily replaced with the much more obvious "circular reasoning."

Misery loves company?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because they have a better run-as, an easier time installing software, solid group & user management, great group & user deligation, and ACL's.

Pay no attention to those useful tools behind the curtain, look at our sexy desktop! Ahhh Karamba....

The wit and wisdom of the Dalai Lama

[mattjb0010]

This t-shirt says it best: "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito -- Dalai Lama".

Re:The wit and wisdom of the Dalai Lama

[Anonymous Coward]

I did. My penis didn't fit.

ZINF

[CanadaDave]

Why didn't they put ZINF (formerly freeamp) on that CD. It's open source isn't it?

Re:ZINF

[BiggyP]

because the win32 version hadn't been updated for rather a while when it was last looked at, and, it's something more for the overhaul and expansion that will come with the 2nd edition.

GNUwin

[spartro]

I have always been a big advocate for open source at the schools, but most of the big education software is win/mac only and most technology coordinators at schools are hesitant to give the K12LTSP a shot. This week Igave a speech to a bunch of other school technology coordinators about the GnuWin CD. Plenty Open Source for Win. I downloaded at the Open CD once and found GnuWin to be more comprehensive. I guess I should take a look at the new version. Most schools were highly interested in OpenOffice and AbiWord, so the foots in the door here.

Re:GNUwin

[Anonymous Coward]

One overlooked key to getting schools to adopot open source is the student's home computers. No matter what software the schools run, the students are going to go home to their MS windows computers every night. If the schools install Linux OS and programs, those kids are going to have to translate between Linux and MS menus and GUIs everyday. Not a welcome prospect.
But by having boatloads of OpenCD CDs available that they can take home and load up (hopefully rather easily) onto their current windows machines without having to destroy their parents programs (by changing the OS), they can avoid having to translate their homework each night. This will make its acceptance among students far wider.

Mirrors

[DeadSea]

From World Wide Web://theopencd.sunsite.dk/mirrors.php

Please use one of the mirror sites below to download your copy of TheOpenCD (note: not all have v1.2 updates). The ISO and source tar are also available on BitTorrent. For more info on Bittorrent, click here, or click here for a BitTorrent client.

Australia World Wide Web | FTP | Mirror courtesy of Jason Andrade and PlanetMirror.

Austria World Wide Web | FTP | Rsync | Mirror courtesy of Antonin Sprinzl and the Vienna University of Technology.

Belgium World Wide Web | FTP | Mirror courtesy of Cedric Gavage and Skynet Belgacom.

Brazil World Wide Web | Mirror courtesy of Aleck Zander and Universidade Estadual Paulista.

Canada FTP | Mirror courtesy of Thomas Cort and Bishop's University.

Finland FTP | Mirror courtesy of Harri Salminen and Funet.

Germany 1 World Wide Web | FTP | Rsync | Mirror courtesy of Daniel Lang and Informatik der Technischen Universitt Mnchen.

Germany 2 FTP | Mirror courtesy of Tom Rueger and the Universitt Bayreuth.

Germany 3 FTP | Mirror courtesy of Thomas List and SunSite Aachen.

Germany 4 FTP | Mirror courtesy of Holger Weiss and Freie Universitt Berlin.

UK World Wide Web | FTP | Mirror courtesy of Yang He and UK Mirror Service.

USA 1 World Wide Web | FTP | Mirror courtesy of A. J. Wright and the The University of Tennessee.

USA 2 World Wide Web | FTP | Rsync | Mirror courtesy of Sam Chessman and Tux.org

USA 3 World Wide Web | FTP | Rsync | Mirror courtesy of Jason Holmes and the Pennsylvania State University.

USA 4 World Wide

No Mac version?

[NomadRaven]

I'm not a Mac fan, but last I knew a lot of public schools still used them. If secondary schools are going to be one of their main target audiences, I would think they'd have a Mac version in the works.

Re:No Mac version?

[Anonymous Coward]

most schools dont use macs.

macs are gone for the most part in public schools.

Re:No Mac version?

[bach37]

macs are gone for the most part in public schools.

I thought schools are the only people who buy macs- with some big educational discounts. Lots of computer labs in schools I've been in have been mac only. And also all the teachers get a mac for their room, etc. Schools are flooded with macs. That's how it is in NC.

Scott

Re:No Mac version?

[RdsArts]

They don't need a CD, they already have Fink for bringing open-source and Free software into their systems.

http://fink.sourceforge.net/

Plus there are a handful of CDs full of open and/or Free software for OS X out there, many based upon the work of the Fink people(person?). Last I heard of one was when someone was distributing the GIMP port they made and calling it their own work, but I can only imagine there are even more out there now.

Say, for example, this.

Re:No Mac version?

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, which schools are they? I attend a high school in NC and we're flooded with PCs. In my AP Comp Sci course, we use Windows XP with crappy JCreator, sigh. I had imagined an awesome classroom full of Linux computers with Netbeans. Ah I should've known better.

Compliments from MS

[Melissa Bra]

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,4149,1331169,00.as p "Addressing several thousand attendees at the Worldwide Partner Conference, he took a swipe at Linux, open source and StarOffice, saying, "they simply accept the view that what they have is good enough. That view does not foster innovation. Being where we were with Office 1997 is not good enough for us," he said." Microsoft admitting that OO is already equal to something they spent millions and millions on and also happens to be much more widely used than Office XP is the best thing they could have said. I mean that. Office 97 is still very popular. One of the biggest challenges MS has is moving people off that since many businesses find that Office 97 is all they need. The fact they think OO has met the quality level that most of world thinks is "good enough" is excellent news. Congrats to the OpenOffice.org team and thanks to Microsoft for the marketing material.

Re:Compliments from MS

[cant_get_a_good_nick]

Being where we were with Office 1997 is not good enough for us
But it's good enough for me, and I believe to a vast percentage of users. If someone gave me Word 95 with native mousewheel support, I'd use it. Native support came in Word 97, which I didn't want, except for this one feature. There are no other new features since then that I've personally wanted. MS is finding I'm not alone - they're increasingly using dropping support as a weapon to force people to upgrade.

Re:Compliments from MS

[Hatta]

"Being where we were with Office 1997 is not good enough for us," he said.

Funny, it seems to be good enough for everyone else. The only reason anyone I know upgraded was incompatible file formats. How hard is it to make a word processor that works and leave it alone, rather than constantly breaking things? Ah well, WYSIWYG isn't my bag anyway.

Re:Compliments from MS

[toddestan]

Not hard at all, but then how do you get people to upgrade if their current word processor does everything they want? MS Office is Microsoft's bread and butter. They need people to upgrade every few years. They want a dependable revenue stream from Office users.

But even with all the tricks Microsoft has pulled (incompatible file formats, cutting support, not fixing bugs, etc.) - Microsoft still has the problem of a lot of people using Office 97 with no intentions of upgrading.

That's one of the nice things about free software, there isn't so much of a motive to break the older versions to force people to upgrade. But I suppose when you don't have to pay for the upgrade, less people are going to cling to the older version anyway.

Re:Compliments from MS

[Anonymous Coward]

How come could you live with Word 95, without Clippy ????????

Re:Compliments from MS

[advocate_one]

Try finding the free convertors now for converting documents created on more recent versions so that they can be read in the 97 or 2000 versions...

They've "retired" them

Re:Compliments from MS

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a freeware converter called: OOo

The Open CD?

[Anonymous Coward]

Disc not inserted. Please close tray and try again.

Joke?

[Gonoff]

What's funny about it? The only thing that I find better in MS Office is the clip art collection and the nice website where you can get more.

As I consider this a very minor item, I use OO at home and MSO at work where I don't have the choice.

Re:Joke?

[Anonymous Coward]

Open Office can't do basic page layout, like move pictures around. It can't maintain aspect ratio, it can't save formatting, it can't import most MSO files cleanly if they are anything other than text....

I tried 5-6 different documents, some original, some legacy, and had a *major* problem with all of them, gave up, and uninstalled it. Basically, the WP (Write?) is useful for text-only stuff with trivial formatting changes. Anything else is garbage.

The spreadsheet seemed usable, I suppose, but the WP is crap.

Re:Joke?

[Anonymous Coward]

Open office is a 3 year out of date copy of MS Office. The only reason to use it is if you aren't running Windows or don't want to pay for MS Office.

Re:Joke?

[Aliencow]

I could never get used to the slowness of OO on my P4 1.5... the freaking menus and widgets are so unresponsive it makes me go crazy. If I really needed an Office suite I'd use MS Office. Maybe the mac version though.

Re:Joke?

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

Open office is a 3 year out of date copy of MS Office.
MS Office hasn't changed that much since Office 95! There *are* changes but since most people use Bold, Italic, select fonts, maybe insert pictures sometimes and save, email, print, any changes make little difference to most people.
[snip].. or don't want to pay for MS Office.
Seems like a good reason to me!

I'll say it again -- most people use a small number of features which OpenOffice more than caters for. So, yeah you *can* pay MS if you're charitable, but really OpenOffice does make a lot of sense.

Re:Joke?

[Un pobre guey]

I hate to chime in, because I've been trying to wean myself away from MS Office with OpenOffice and StarOffice, but making charts in the OO spreadsheet is nowhere near as smooth as in the MS equivalent.

For basic documents, though, the WP is OK, and I have made several printable forms with the presentation program.

Re:Joke?

[Anonymous Coward]

>Open Office can't do basic page layout, like move
>pictures around. It can't maintain aspect ratio, it >can't save formatting

And offcourse all of this is false, but how would you know, you never used it. I find all the things above much clearer in OOo the in word, together with oodraw it is hard to beat. Did you use oowriter, sounds more like abiword (moving picture problem)

OpenOffice 1.1, the perfect choice.

[Anonymous Coward]

As I am no way in hell able to afford Microsoft Office, I can only use it at College, not at work or home.

OpenOffice 1.1 has saved my life. Even complex presentations, with Animations, Transitions, Pcitures and Sounds are imported flawlessly in Version 1.1 and it is very fast.

Many students I also know are starting to use it. OpenOffice, together with KDE is perfect. I admit OpenOffice 1.0 was a bit slow and ugly, but version 1.1 is perfect.

Re:OpenOffice 1.1, the perfect choice.

[Angry Toad]

Couldn't agree more - I avoided using OO 1.0 because it simply didn't work as well as MSO. With 1.1 that's all changed. I regularly use OO now and find it just as comfortable as MSO for most ordinary activities. The draw program is acceptable, the word processing works and imports every MSO document I've thrown at it. Charting in the spreadsheet still isn't the best, but will do in a pinch.

I just finished off a 40-page report to the government on our research project, complete with charts and graphs all done in OO. It felt genuinely good to not use MSO for it.

Re:OpenOffice 1.1, the perfect choice.

[Anonymous Coward]

>but version 1.1 is perfect.

I disagree. Version 1.1 is indeed better than 1.0.3, but is is not perfect. A few issues I have with it are:
1. Loading Times. They are DEFINATELY better in 1.1, but I think that there may still be a little room for improvement.
2. Presentation. The icons suck, and I think most will agree with me in this regard. Also, the gui doesn't use native widgets for the OS (though, this is being worked on).
3. Filters. Importing ROCKS on OO.o 1.1, but there are cases where things get misplaced or properties of objects get messed with. It is truly annoying when this happens.
4. Why did we replace clippit with a lightbulb? Not to sound pissy, but I say either turn him off or don't do a half-assed job and get it right! And don't say, "Well, you can shut it off." *I* don't want to shut it off. To my knowledge, everybody hates clippy and I don't see how making clippy a static, 8-bit color, lightbulb is going to make anybody like him better.

Anyway, I have used OO.o since 1.0 exclusively (except for checking doc/ppt/xls output) for every office need. I honestly do not see how this would be insufficient for the majority of desktop users.

Uhhhh......no

[spartro]

The "widespread budgetary woes" and "ever-increasing licensing fees" don't effect them.

That is why I was told to use the leftovers from last years tech budjet to buy enough toner cartridges and ink cartridges for this year and next. We have already been told that the money isn't there. After many years in school systems, the only time I believe it when people tell me about future money is when they say it isn't there.

Microsoft gives its products to schools for free or at a steep discount, and is more and more likely to do so the more viable the competition becomes.

Could you please point me to where this is available for schools? All my MS products are at a marginal discount. At best.

Re:Uhhhh......no

[Anonymous Coward]

If you cry linux or Mac enough to your state MS rep, you might be surprised at the outcome.

I have seen them donate several copies of 2000 Advanced Server software to prevent a school district from jumping to a OS X based network.

Re:Uhhhh......no

[Anonymous Coward]

Why run to OSX? Of all the OS's out there it's the most expensive, "TCO" including! Apple would be hard-pressed to denounce even this!

Available by mail in Montreal, Quebec, Canda

[millette]

Like the suject says, OpenCD v1.2, 5$ my mail anywhere in Canada.

Nattor, the Little CD Vendor catalog

Bittorrent Link

[deadcasuals]

Dude, check your links!

Here's a torrent of the ISO.

Here's an American FTP mirror.

ACK and you shall receive.

Re:Bittorrent Link

[DeadSea]

oops. I didn't have enough characters per line for the slashdot filter so I did a replace of http with World Wide Web. Forgot that would break the links...

The OpenCD for Closed Systems.

[mmcguigan]

gnuwin.org has not released a new CD in some time now. I'm glad to see a new CD like this from another group. I have not downloaded this CD yet and I'm sure they have spent a lot of time trying to package these programs up neatly for end-users. I love giving people choices in what software they can use, but why do all of these so called Open CD's that contain sofware for Closed Systems contain software that can only be found on that closed platform?

I really like FileZilla, but it is not based on Mozilla as one might think and it is not available on any platform other than a closed one. Once you get them hooked on this excellent FTP program, what do you say for yourself when the only reason they won't try another system is because their favorite FTP program is not available there?

Is this CD really open?

Try again...

[forevermore]

Are we so quick to forget incidents like this one, where Microsoft started going after schools for license violations? Microsoft and the Gates Foundation may give away a lot of stuff to schools and libraries, but it's rarely enough to make a dent in the budgets of most schools (I still send a number of old computers to my mom's classroom - running linux or old versions of macos - because her school can't afford to give her the computers she needs).

Re:Try again...

[tshak]

On the contrary. If MS is giving away so much software to schools, and giving schools a _steep_ discount on their software, it's a slap in MS's face to be pirating their software in schools. I'd go after them too. If the school can't afford the software, don't pirate it, use a cheaper alternative. I have no problems if a school determines that Linux will work, I do have a problem when a school determines that MS is a better solution, and then pirates $10 copies of WinXP.

Re:Try again...

[Fancia]

Perhaps the problem is more of misdirection of funds? I know that at my high school, each department had a separate technology fund in addition to a separate fund for computer labs and their software. The English department was left with tech money they had no use for and which couldn't be rerouted into the books they fairly desperately needed or put into any other budgets; in the end, they bought a TV and a DVD player because they weren't allowed to use the money for anything they actually needed or give it to another department that needed it.

Trolling the Open Source crowd

[siskbc]

Poster:However, and I'm not trying to troll here,

Mods:Score:0, Troll

Come on, guys. A post isn't a troll just because the poster doesn't refer to RMS as "Our Father, who art in FSF..."

Of course, I suppose a post isn't NOT a troll just because the poster says it's not, either...

BitTorrent mirror

[mbrubeck]

The web server hosting the BitTorrent files is Slashdotted, so I am mirroring the ISO torrent here: http://limpet.net/files/TheOpenCD-1.2.iso.torrent

What if I don't want rapid innovation?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been a Mac user for years, and Apple has been innovating like mad. To be honest, I hate it. Every three years, all my expensive hardware is reduced to obsolete junk. I have to keep shovelling money into hardware and software upgrades just to keep everything working. Has my productivity increased in proportion? Not really. Certainly, my income has not.
I am primarily and illustrator and designer, but I also do web development. To be honest, I was sort of relieved when the browser wars were over. I despised the winner, but at least my life got a little simpler.
I am all for innovation, but if the pace is too frantic, we all spend more time adapting than we do enjoying the benefits of whatever the latest advance was. A lot of developers are forgetting that sooner or later all that electronic activity has to translate into some sort of tangible benefit in the material world.

Re:What if I don't want rapid innovation?

[Anonymous Coward]

The job of software developers is to sell you products; its pretty much up to you to figure out whether to buy it.

I don't understand complaining about progress; if you're satisfied with what you've got and it works, why change? I've got a Pismo 400 from a few years ago that I've added a few hardware tweaks, so it does the job for me. I'd love a new Powerbook, but this one works well enough that I'll probably hang onto it for another 2-3 more years (I'll jump when the G5 powerbooks come out).

Here ya go...

[Seraphim_72]

The pricing my school gets is obscene - I have made the pitch to the head of technology about open source - then he showed me in real dollars what we pay for the entire campus for MS products - think everything but servers for a 500 seat computer set up - $14000 a year. Oh, and we are looking into it, but it probably includes free student versions of VS.Net for any student enroled in a .net class.

Here are a few links to get you started
For programming stuff

For OS agreements w/MS

Re:Here ya go...

[drinkypoo]

Total software cost for all 500 seats running some flavor of Linux, with Open Office, and so on; $0/year.

Yeah, $14k is a song, but is it really necessary? I'm thinking Microsoft is operating solely on inertia; it would cost a considerable amount to switch.

Re:Here ya go...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Total software cost for all 500 seats running some flavor of Linux, with Open Office, and so on; $0/year."

How are you distributing said Open Source software? Does your medium cost money? Can you get a deal whereby all student and faculty purchases for educational use on their home personal computers cost a nominal price and half of said price goes to your school? Oh and who takes MS's place in your equation and handles all the billing if you can swing it? Such programs exist now and help to pay for administration and supplies, (paper, toner) the cost difference of technical reources, (training and IT service and support) the slack cost of internet access for 201 elementary and secondary schools (yes we get donations of bandwidth but we still must pay marginal costs for ISDN, Cable and DSL and support contracts to service things like routers [Cisco, Nortel and Newbridge]) and new hardware at my K-12 school board. Yes it might seem cheaper to go with opensource but for us at least it is the difference between having Internet access and computers to access it with and training materials and programs like Turing and not.

"Yeah, $14k is a song, but is it really necessary? I'm thinking Microsoft is operating solely on inertia; it would cost a considerable amount to switch."

Yes it also costs a good deal to switch but only marginally more to dual boot. Right now we are using Mandrake and Gentoo wherever possible in dual boot or kiosk situations. Without MS kickbacks I don't think we would have either the computers or the techs to deploy Linux and Opensource software in the classroom. My only real complaint (besides how the router guys "gave" us routers [and gave themselves hefty tax deductions] that continue to cost us money) is that for all the promotion that IBM does for Linux, IBM Canada (K-12 Educational Division) just does not have the programs, materials or support to make Linux work without additional outside costs. MS by constrast bends over backward for our board and in exchange we do too :-(.

I am posting this anonymously because I do not want to be fired or ruin the goodwill of any companies that support our school board. Lets face it, the students should not suffer because I want to respond on /.

Re:Here ya go...

[Seraphim_72]

Exactly - all MS adims, all MS stuff, damn expensive to retrain them - plus they hate the whle idea - learning linux ranks just under learning vb.office for most. But what are we training our youth for?? MS every time. I often toss out the - "Are we teaching 'Word" or are we teaching word processing?" (sub in excel/spreadsheet, etc) all the time - everyone shakes thier head and says - " Well, word processing, but Word is.."

I hand out as many copies of OpenOfice as I can - next month when the JavaDesktop comes out - I am paying, out of my own pocket, the $20 for Staroffice ( campus and student computer Lic.) and (if they hold true) $ 20 for the Java desktop (same Lic.)

And to answer your question, yeah, free, is still cheaper, but inertia is stronger...sad...I am even going to contact SUSe and REDHAT to make it available for our students ... few takers ..but ...have to try


Sera

Use may be expensive, but threat is cheap.

[Futurepower(R)]

OSX may not have a low cost of ownership, but it has a low cost of threat. Make a threat to buy OSX, and you get free Microsoft product. Make a threat against the U.S., and maybe you too can get $87,000,000,000 in free money.

They ALL must do it!!!

[t0ny]

Ya, youre right, M$ is just giving to schools in order to create their new generation of Office-using drones. Because we all see how much software and hardware companies like Apple and WordPerfect threw at schools when THEY were in the dominant position.

Im sure they have dumpsters filled with all the Lotus SmartSuite, Lindows, OSX, etc, that are donated to them as well.

Or maybe its that MS is the first company not trying to gouge funds from the lucrative educational market? Nah, couldnt be- Mikro$loth is EVIL!!!

Re:They ALL must do it!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Because we all see how much software and hardware companies like Apple and WordPerfect threw at schools when THEY were in the dominant position.

Disclaimer: I read this lokng ago and don;t remember the source

IIRC, Apple once tried to give a computer to every school in the USA. They asked for some kind of tax break so they could afford to do this without going bankrupt. They didn't get it, so the project was cancelled.

Re:They ALL must do it!!!

[t0ny]

First, this is at best an unconfirmed rumor.

Second, Apple was essentially looking for a government subsidy to supply computers, thus not making it really 'giving', but more like making Uncle Sam pay for it.

Third, beware vague, half remembered stories from Anonymous posters.

Re:They ALL must do it!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice troll.

Corrected link

[kavau]

Argh! Slashdot messed up the link! I just forgot to add the "http://" and Slashdot assumed it's a local page. Interesting...

Let's try it again: The correct link is gnuwin.epfl.ch

Re:Corrected link

[Mage Powers]

thats not slashcode's fault, its how html works, not really that interesting...

Theres no screenshot for nethack, now THATS interesting ;)

that was polite

[edubarr]

Welcome /. ! Please try the Google Cache. I've never felt more welcome when /. a site...

I thought using a computer...

[ErnstKompressor]

was the skill one had to learn, not pre-disposing kids to using MS software. The greatest fallacy I hear is how different 'other' OS's are from Windows...what a crock. Kids would be better served if they were taught word processing and spreadsheet skills independant of branding their skill-set as being profecient in 'MS Office.'

Hell, the majority of working-age adults cut their teeth on Apple II's, and they seemed to transition to Windows units without much trouble, so I think the 'wisdom' of teaching kids to use Windows is really just marketing spin and 'lock-in tactics.

Re:I thought using a computer...

[Fancia]

I definately agree. I'd never used Linux for more than a few minutes, I must admit, until buying my AmigaOne, which had Debian preloaded. I can't claim to be an expert in it, but the transition was extremely easy. KDE controls like Windows, but nicer, and learning anything new I needed to wasn't very difficult. Transferring skills you've learned on one OS to other OSs isn't too difficult anymore.

Bad Analogy

[John Hasler]

> He describes the relation between Open Source and
> Microsoft as: "one of gnats swarming around a
> large, slow-moving beast."

An _extremely_ poor analogy. The gnats draw their sustenance from the beast and would die without it. Free Software exists entirely independently of Microsoft and would replace it were to die.

Re:Bad Analogy

[El]

That's not entirely true. Linux owes it's existance to all those old PCs that too underpowered to run the latest bloatware from Redmond. If there had been no M$, there would have been no PC, and hence no Linux, and Unix would still only be running on $10,000 proprietary workstations.

Re:Bad Analogy

[HumanTorch]

An _extremely_ poor analogy. The gnats draw their sustenance from the beast and would die without it. Free Software exists entirely independently of Microsoft and would replace it were to die.

Microsoft products quite often serve as the blueprint and inspiration for open source products, therefore Free Software is feeding off the market research and product development that Microsoft has done (or bought, or stole, or whatever - doesn't matter).

Re:Bad Analogy

[Anonymous Coward]

Not Linux perhaps, but there might be GNU/Hurd.

Re:Bad Analogy

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, reiserfs is a direct spin-off from Microsoft development, yes.

NOT!

How about vi? emacs? What about mouse gestures? How about .png? .mng? .ogg? I've yet to see those implemented in MS- or any other commercial products..

Re:Bad Analogy

[pandrijeczko]

>>Microsoft products quite often serve as the >>blueprint and inspiration for open source
>>products

Rubbish!

If you buy a car, you expect it to have 4 wheels, an engine, air-conditioning, etc.

Likewise, in software, you expect it to have networking capability, (probably) a GUI that you can use with a mouse and a few applications that you can load, edit and save files with.

Sure, Microsoft's penetration has influenced how people want a PC to "feel" when it's used but it would be a poor software developer who didn't focus on trying to make an application as usable as possible to his intended audience and to fit in with the way they currently use a computer as much as possible.

The same argument could be applied to Microsoft ripping off the GUI look and feel from Xerox.

Re:Bad Analogy

[HumanTorch]

Make your own spreadsheet from scratch, then. I dare you.

Software List

[ameoba]

the website's list of included software

• Office & Design
• OpenOffice.org
• AbiWord
• GIMP
  
• Internet & Communication
• Mozilla
• FileZilla
• TightVNC
• WinHTTrack
• PuTTY
  
• Multimedia & Games
• Audacity
• CDex
• Crack Attack!
• Sokoban YASC
• Celestia
• Really Slick Screensavers
• Utilities & Other
  
• 7-Zip
• SciTE
• WinPT
• NetTime

What is your problem?

[Un pobre guey]

No, no, no! You've got it all wrong! In order to free people you have to bomb the fuck out of them, take over their natural resources, and make them start a civil war that will tie them up for at least 50 years or so!

Shit, give them free software and you will empower the bastards. Then what will happen? Self-sufficiency? Resourcefulness? Rampant prosperity? You're crazy! They'll turn off their TVs! They'll stop buying worthless shit! They might even decide to take their education into their own hands!

STOP!!!

new mirror

[Anonymous Coward]

temporary screenshot mirror

good god man....

[Anonymous Coward]

" As I am no way in hell able to afford Microsoft Office,"

No one can. That's why god invented the binary warez groups on usenet.

Re:good god man....

[Anonymous Coward]

A humourous comment but one that holds a lot of truth, quite frankly.

I have a number of close friends who happily use Windows 2000 and MS Office for all their computing needs. I frequently get into Linux discussions with them and suggest they should try Open Office, even on Windows. The response I get is always the same - they have access to MSDN CDs at work and can install / use MS software freely at home as much as they like.

The strange thing is that I find it very difficult to get an intelligent response from them when I ask them if they'd still use Windows and MS Office if they had to pay the full price for it...

Choice? In schools?

[jc42]

In the many years I spent in various US schools, I never saw a choice about any educational material. It was extremely rare for the teacher to do the choosing. The universal approach is that the school administration makes all such choices, and both the teachers and students have to attempt to use what "choice" was handed to them.

Suggesting that school student are "choosing" Microsoft (or sometimes Apple) is one of the most cynical comments that I've read here in a very long time. They no more chose their computers than they choose their textbooks. It's rare that they can even choose their teacher. A very few school systems allow a "choice" among a few schools, but this decision is almost always made by the parents, not the student.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed this ...

Easing down the road

[wed128]

That's just not the point...OpenCD seems like a great idea to me...

Show windows users (not you defensive knowledgable ones, i mean schoolkids and people in libraries) that they have an alternative to the software they use, and they may become very receptive to it.

soon they may open their eyes to the fact that there is an alternative out there...some of them may become interested, and progress, and eventually move away from propriatary software all together. Some of them might not care.

I really think OEM's ought to push this as a default install on windows computers, and then offer office, photoshop etc. as upgrades (or sidegrades, seeing as it is equivelent software).

After using free software, people might see that moving to a completely free platform isn't so scary afterall.

I have yet to meet someone who, after using linux for a while, wanted to switch back. This includes some very non-technical friends of mine.

But wait! There's more!

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft, it turns out, agrees that Linux can be used on the desktop. From silicon.com:

Silicon.com's Jai Singh: Right. But now they're pushing Linux for the desktop.

Bill Gates: People have had Linux on the desktop for a long time. It's not a substantial share of what's going on at the desktop.

At the middle of the page in:

http://www.silicon.com/software/webservices/0,39 02 4657,39116984-2,00.htm

Enjoy!

How is this different than Knoppix?

[VoxBoston]

"One CD to bring them all"... How is this different / beter than Knoppix?

Re:How is this different than Knoppix?

[wed128]

it dosen't require the complete replacement of an OS, drive partitioning, learning a CLI, etc. next.

Re:How is this different than Knoppix?

[toddestan]

Nor does Knoppix.

But I think I get the idea behind the CD. People are willing to try out free software. Many are not willing to give up Windows just yet though.

So give them a taste of what's out there via free software that runs on top of Windows. Once they get used to the idea and see how great the software is, then they will be more willing to take the plunge and switch to running Linux.

Re:How is this different than Knoppix?

[Anonymous Coward]

it's a two step program - learn how to use some of the common apps (like GIMP) and get used to the differences in the browser
Then, when they are comfy with it, change the OS. It won't be a big deal for most, since it's the apps they are interested in, and they run the same way that they learned.

Re:How is this different than Knoppix?

[RdsArts]

It's far easier to use the programs alongside a already-installed system then to have to reboot each time you wish to switch between the two.

Plus, in all honesty, Windows needs more exposure to Free software. GNU/Linux will not be around forever and it's better to show that the idea of Free software itself is the good thing, not just one operating system.

Those arn't gnats you are seeing!

[donscarletti]

Since when could gnats force a slow beast to work twice as hard and even threaten its very existence?

Free Software developers arn't gnats, they are a swarm of killer bees, wasps, tetse flys and mosquitoes carrying Ross River Fever and Malaria.

The analogy is even better when you realise that a heterogeneous swarm of poisonous and infectious insects would spend more time attacking each other than attacking the beast, just like real open source developers. That leads me to another question: Does human society mock nature or does nature mock human society? All I know for sure is everyone likes to mock computer nerds.

The war has started

[wed128]

However, I hope this doesn't become a war of dogmas (free/ proprietary).

it has started, and nothing good has come of it. However, the way i see it's current status is, OSS is fighting for public awareness of it's existance, where as Proprietary FUD is fighting against that awareness.

Consumers Choose Windows.

[tshak]

The seperation of an OS and a computer is ludacrious from a consumer standpoint. It's like seperating the OS of your cellphone and saying that the consumer did not "choose" the software/OS of the cellphone. The consumer chose Windows just as much as they chose the computer in which they purchased. You can purchase Apple computers, in which part of that choice is choosing OSX. What's different about the x86 hardware platform is that it's more open and therefore has many OS's that run on it, but that doesn't mean that a consumer needs to be aware of that.

The software, particularly the OS, is the interface to the consumer. That's a huge part of what they see when they go to make a purchase decision. The other factor is of course the hardware "specs" that they know little to nothing about (eg: p4 3.2Ghz, 1Gig RAM, etc.), but just make decisions based on "bigger is better". Nevertheless, you have to treat a computer as a whole product.

Finally, Windows95 was one of the biggest (if not THE biggest) _retail_ software launches in terms of sales, ever. So, people who already had computers made the choice to go spend an extra $90 to upgrade their machine.

Re:Consumers Choose Windows.

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, but then you come to the next hurdle - MS punishing any company who tries to diversify into linux/x86 machines, and MS punishing any hardware OEM who releases specifications to linux developers.

Re:Consumers Choose Windows.

[Anonymous Coward]

But it doesn't matter because there other other _computers_ that use different OS's. The consumer doesn't care about x86, they care about Computers.

Re:Consumers Choose Windows.

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn! I didn't realize that my choice of buying Windows 95 retail overrode any future OS choice! Now my Linux purchase for the same machine (and others) will never be counted! Curses!

Dozens of workalikes, so why use Microsoft?

[aquarian]

They taught word processing, and how to use a spread sheet. It really didn't matter what system it was on because the schools never taught anything but the general concepts.

Well, word processing and spreadsheets are the same whether you're using Word or Excel, or OpenOffice, or Lotus, or Kwrite, or Gnumeric, or Abiword, or whatever. Almost anyone can sit down with any of these programs, and they all do the same things in about the same way. Once you understand the concepts, which takes about 10 minutes, it's just a matter of finding out which feature resides under which menu item, and even then they're all about the same.

I think most people simply don't realize this, so they don't bother to look at alternatives. I think if you handed them OpenOffice to use for a couple of weeks, they'd probably stick with it once they found out it was free (as in costs $0).

Personally, I won't use Word because it sucks -- too buggy, and tries to do too much automatically, which causes weird problems that are a pain to deal with. I prefer Framemaker, or DocBook, or TeX, and PDFs for printed pages.

Re:Dozens of workalikes, so why use Microsoft?

[MrResistor]

I think if you handed them OpenOffice to use for a couple of weeks, they'd probably stick with it once they found out it was free (as in costs $0).

I know only one person that hasn't been true for, and that's my step-mom. It seems that OpenOffice 1.0 had some stability problems in a multi-user Win2k environment.[1] She got fed up and told my dad she wanted her damned paperclip!

I don't think it would have been a problem if they had just said something to me at the time, but you know how people can be about that sometimes; they don't want to impose, especially if it's something you gave them for free.

[1] In all fairness, it may not have been OO's fault. According to my dad he had some similar problems the the version of Works(?) that he bought, and when I got ahold of it recently for some much needed updates I found they'd been infected with Blaster (though I believe the OO problems pre-dated Blaster).

Bittorrent (rant)

[wed128]

Exactly. Niche applications are where real innovation occurs. here's a little detail

Bittorrent is the greatest innovation in networking software i've seen yet. I really think with the right support (and a whole lot less warez) bittorrent could potentially replace (or substantially extend) the FTP protocol. The internet could be much faster and have a much better load capacity if bittorrent functions were built into HTML engines. The slashdot problem would simply cease to exist.

rant completed.

Re: I'm Going to Suck YOUR DICK!

[Anonymous Coward]

I see the closed-source side's top minds are on duty... heh.

I completely disagree

[Tharald]

I see this argument again and again, and I really dont understand it. Open source desktop environments have been catching up for a while, but they are at a point where they are starting to pass the leaders. There are lots of functionality in KDE that arent in windows or macs. But the best example is still mozilla. When you include the extensions there are tons of innovative new features. Theres nothing like that kind of innovation in proprietary sw. The problem is that the small companies that do innovate do not have the money/resources to get the innovation out, while the dominant players dont need to. In open source innovation occurs because someone thinks something is a good idea, and if other people agree it is picked up and incorporated.

So quite the opposite, I think open source innovates much more than proprietary software. It is the perfect evolutionary system. No barriers of entry, everybody influences what innovation stays, and innovation occur because of peoples strongest self interest ("I need this feature").

-TN

Re:GNUwin - private and religious schools

[codepunk]

Lesson one, public schools get state money and are constantly pimped by vendors. Don't even bother with those guys, go after the scools that pay out of pocket. It is suprisingly easy to convince a private school to switch to a LTSP setup. Most of these places run on donated gear which cannot even run 98 decent. As for LTSP good luck, I have done many linux terminal based installs but I do not use LTSP as it is to complex and hard to maintain. Most of these places already have computers I load linux local and modify the inittab to start up a remote X session to the terminal. This works like a champ and is one hell of a lot simpler and more reliable thay LTSP. I am on the third school in the last three months and another one waiting. Of course it also helps that I do schools for free, business's have to pay...

Aw come on...

[Xconnect]

The FTP links work... :-)

Great Christmas gift

[hey]

I gave the OpenCD to manty people for Xmas last
year. Its cheap and they seemed to like it.

BitTorrent Available for OpenCD 1.2 ISO

[Selanit]

You can use BitTorrent to download the OpenCD ISO, in addition to the traditional mirrors. Henrik Omma (the project founder) put up .torrent files here:

http://theopencd.sunsite.dk/torrents/

Note: there are TWO torrents. One is the binary ISO, one is the source code. Make sure you know which you want (most people will just want the regular ISO, not the source code).

A Singular Disagreement

[droleary]

You know, it might be best to avoid words like "A", "The" "Alternative" (non-plural) when you decry the existence of a monoculture . . .

practical obstacles

[bcrowell]

I've been trying hard to make open-source inroads at my own school, but the devil is in the details. Examples:

I teach physics lab courses, and would like my students to be able to use OSS to do their graphs. (E.g., it's a drag when they save their Excel file, take it home, and find out they can't read it with the older version of Excel they have at home.) Unfortunately, Open Office is missing some critical features, like the ability to fit a line to the data and find the slope of the line. (Or maybe the feature is there, but I couldn't find it.) There's other OSS that can find the slope, of course, but my students need something with a familiar-looking UI.

We have lab equipment that we interface to, and the software doesn't run on Linux.

I've tried using Samba to print on the shared laser printer from my desktop FreeBSD machine. Unfortunately, the postscript files I generate have a tendency to cause an error which stops the queue. My co-workers are not happy when that happens, so now I print at home, or, if I have to print at work, I transfer a PDF file to a Windows machine.

Our instructional computing staff is undermanned. They already administer two operating systems (Windows and MacOS). I can't really blame them for not wanting to administer three.

There is no critical mass of faculty members who want to use an open-source OS or open-source apps. The typical reaction is that Linux sounds hard to use. And you know what? They're kind of right. Try explaining to most people -- even the science geeks I work with -- about shared library conflicts, or explaining to them why cut and paste doesn't have consistent behavior.

Re:practical obstacles

[El Cubano]

The typical reaction is that Linux sounds hard to use. And you know what? They're kind of right. Try explaining to most people -- even the science geeks I work with -- about shared library conflicts, or explaining to them why cut and paste doesn't have consistent behavior.

Why should anyone bother explaining to these folks shared library conflicts and flaky cut/paste behavior? The two problems exist in Windows, yet everyone mysteriously accepts it under Windows and cries about it in Linux.

Re:practical obstacles

[Dalcius]

Are you sure that the nuances you're talking about don't have their equivalents in Windows?

DLL Hell or file sharing problems or viruses for instance?
Lots of folks think these problems don't exist on Windows because they're used to working with them there. Any defects are going to annoy anyone new to a system.

Cheers

Re:practical obstacles

[amemily]

A colleague of mine in another agency has posted an article online outlining some of the problems in bringing Linux into a K12 environment.

In the district I work in, I've had some success in bringing OSS software onto the network - namely Apache, Mozilla, Star/Open Office, and PHP.

Getting Linux onto the desktop outside of the network support staff will never happen though unless many software manufacturer have a change of heart - many pieces of software that is required in my district are not available on Linux, such as Photoshop, FileMakerPro, MealTime, GradeMachine and a whole host of other programs in addition to the trouble it can be to get Java installed onto Linux and working properly with Mozilla so the staff would be able to use the online state software - so my district for the forseeable future will be using Windows 2000 and OS X on the desktops.

Re:practical obstacles

[toddestan]

Fitting a line to data in OpenOffice isn't that hard. It's actually done the same way as it is done in Excel. Check out the LINEST command. The syntax is identical. The GUI for it is a little different, but works. Getting to that GUI is a bit different though. In Excel there is a nice button on the toolbar in the default install to insert a function - but in OpenOffice it's buried in the menu (Insert menu -> Insert Function... or CTRL-F2 if you want). Of course, you can customize the toolbar in both OpenOffice and Excel, but so few people do so.

Re:practical obstacles

[chthonicdaemon]

For that lab equipment you need to interface to, check out Comedi. The equipment might be on the list.

Inserting trends is done by highlighting the graph on which you have graphed your points and then going to Insert|Statistics. The regressions are only available on the XY chart type. I found this out by going to help and typing "trend line" in the search field.

The clipboard thing is getting really old. If you want to use apps with consistent cut and paste, use only KDE and GTK apps. They are unified now. Of course, if you are using an app that is unaware of their clipboard, use the old highlight and middle click thing. It's not a hard rule to explan --- the old apps look old anyway, so its easy to say, well the old apps are different. Just like old Windows apps (anyone remember those funky Delphi widgets?)

Re:practical obstacles

[Dwedit]

It's a little tricky to do, but you can insert a Microsoft Graph inside an openoffice spreadsheet. It won't automaticly be linked to the spreadsheet data though, it gets its own mini-spreadsheet, like when you insert one in a word document.

But you do get the trendline feature.

Re:GNUwin - private and religious schools

[LDoggg_]

As for LTSP good luck, I have done many linux terminal based installs but I do not use LTSP as it is to complex and hard to maintain.

Strange, I've had the exact opposite experience with regards to LTSP.
Linux is great run locally, but modern GUIs don't run so well on the junk hardware that most privately funded schools have.
A year ago I decided to give K12LTSP a chance and set up a small server + 3 terminals to demo to my son's school board. Those that understood the tehnology were impressed. So this past summer I purchased a better server and connected the lab's 25 terminals (junk Pentium 90s/120s) to it. Runs like a champ, and we are rolling out 4 terminals to each class room.

The head of the school district of about 25 schools caught wind of it and came down for a look see. They were very very impressed, and would like to roll it out big time.

LTSP is indeed a complex piece of software, but K12LTSP makes it much simpler.

The only one voice of opposition tried to make a point that in the "real world" people are using MS software, so that's what the students should learn.
When I told him what it would cost us to use a MS solution he decided to give open office and mozilla a chance. He's more than happy with the system now.

Remeber that students need to learn concepts, not brand loyalty or even zealotry.
Today's First graders would do well to learn typing and word processing. You can be sure that when they enter the workforce in 15 to 20 years, the current MS windows/office offerings will be irrelevant.

Why?

[YrWrstNtmr]

What would a LiveCD do for the average user that they don't have already?

Ok...they load the CD, boot the PC into Linux, and then what?

You can browse the web, email, work in OpenOffice, etc, etc. SO what?

They do all that already in their current Win OS. What would a LiveCD offer? The fact that it's free? The OS they already have is 'free'. Came with the PC. Not too many people actually went out and bought WinXP retail to upgrade their Win2000 or '98 PC.

The operating system does not matter. Users don't run an OS, they use programs.

The one best thing OSS has going for it is OpenOffice as opposed to Office2000 or XP. And that, only because of the price. Featurewise, OOo is still a little bit behind. And it runs just as happily on Win as it does elsewhere.

Again...what would a LiveCD do for an average non-techie user?

Can you inovate?

[POds]

You can tell people are desprite when they try and point the fingure at Microsoft for not inovating. If they where to say something about the bugs/holes in the software than i'd have to agree, but inovation?

Maybe theirs not much inovation in the user interfaces but behind the scenes they're always something new going on.

Like XML Data islands and Data binding. In my mind that was an inovation that led to .NET web services, a larger inovation. And if you'r going to us Firebird or Mozilla in your argument, can you say they've inovated? What? popup blocking and tabs? Pfffffft i can name at least two browsers that have had TABS for some time. Opera, and AWeb (an Amiga browser, no open source, or was that Voyger?).

I might give them popup blocking but things that are this obvious arnt inovations. Inovations are those thigns that blow people away and are totaly unexpected and they are things people never thought they'ed use but they cant live without.

I think OSS inovates about as much as Microsoft, in some instances, maybe more and others maybe less!

Slope

[bstadil]

Unfortunately, Open Office is missing some critical features, like the ability to fit a line to the data and find the slope of the line.

How about using the Slope Function inside the Math section on the spreadsheet itself.

Or even better tell them how Linear regression is done, IF you are able to.

Microsoft K12 Pricing

[amemily]

http://www.edtech.wednet.edu/purchasing/

Link to the WSIPC price list for Microsoft products is somewhere on that site.

Prices are for Washington State school districts though.

Insight into a Linux User

[Dalcius]

Hey buddy, I'm really sorry for the Linux newbies who are still fawning over Linux, but don't lump us all up with the idiotic zealots. That's just as much of a logical fallacy as to say nobody uses Windows because they like it over all the other alternatives.

Any true Linux user is all about choice. That's what makes Linux great.

If Windows suits your needs, then so be it. That's great! I'm honestly happy for you. I wish Linux could provide that, maybe someone can help fill that need. It's the same thing I tell the folks I know: Linux isn't for some people.

If there is one piece of advice I can give anyone to understanding the rants of a Linux person, it's this:
Most Linux folks don't care what you use. They found a system that is elegant, suits their needs and let's them tweak things to their exact preferences. They found a system that is very in tune with the way they use a computer. And they want to share the gem that they found. This can start the rabid zealot rants, especially from a new Linux convert. I used to fall in this category; then I got over it, realized that not everyone will do best with Linux and moved on.

NOW, my biggest thing is education. It hurts to see someone down-talking Linux when they know little to nothing about it. I enjoy showing people Linux as most people don't know what it is -- maybe they'll enjoy it as I have. It's when people start spewing misinformation that I get mad.

This has been my experience. I sincerely hope that Linux folks can be a little less rabid and I hope that Windows users will be a little less defensive.

Cheers

Re:Insight into a Linux User

[Anonymous Coward]

O K, took the salt now whats u're fone number?

OS the little private Elementary School? Thoughts?

[J_Omega]

My dear old mom has taught at a little Catholic Elementary School for years. Their computers are horribly outdated, and the software (MS) is a hodgepodge of various versions from the past 10 years.

I've considered trying to explain to them that the switch to OSS might be preferrable. Since they can't really ever afford new hardware (raise tuition? neg.) and costs of software licences, OSS sounds like it might be a nice alternative. Generally the same stuff running on 486s to P3s, free upgrades when needed, OpenCD stuff would work on the kids/teachers machines at home (probably.)

What are your thoughts on this? If the PCs are there for kids to write reports, learn the basics of PCs, some educational software useage (typing? Alphabet learning?) would it make sense to wait until a summer, and wipe all machines and dump on a Linux Distro?

Regardless, I think I'll burn a few OpenCDs, let mom play with the software (she's getting a new PC soon anyways!) and let the other teachers there experiment.

Any thoughts, help, tips, greatly appreciated!

Exactly right.

[Futurepower(R)]

Exactly right. See this: History surrounding the U.S. war with Iraq: Four short stories

As Dave Letterman said on his national TV talk show, when you make out the check to help pay for the $87,000,000,000, there are two "L"s in Halliburton, Vice President Dick Cheney's company. (It's called "using the power of government to help your friends get rich"; it's 100% government corruption.)

However, it is not that there was a threat, only that there was a perceived threat. Quite possibly the threat to go to OS X was not real, and also only a perceived threat.

Re:Exactly right.

[stephanruby]

Got it. Thanks.

As a Public School Teacher, I Think This is Doomed

[dbn3]

I teach for a very large school district in Texas. This past year the district purchased laptops for all the teachers. The laptops ran $1050. The license for office was $50 a pop. That is an amazing price, but the district refused to pay. Instead they bought a district support contract from Sun for StarOffice.

No one uses it. Attachments still all show up as .doc (or .pdf) files, never the StarOffice format. In addition, many teachers I know are not very good at using computers. They have a hard enough time learning how to use MS Office without learning StarOffice, too.

Yes, its the same functions in a slightly different interface, but that's not the point. Teachers are never interested in doing extra work that they do not see will have a direct impact on their classroom. Its just too easy to ask the tech teacher for a copy of MS Office and install it anyway.

Re:Choice? In schools?

[cmacb]

You got that right!. The problem is not only that Open Source products are not on the menu but that the whole selection process is closed. A few people at the top make these decisions based on politics, payola and country club networking rather than TCP/IP issues. They then hold meetings and hire consultants to rubber stamp the decision. I have participated in such shams and know them to be total fakes.

Our country REALLY needs for these decisions to be made in an "Open" environment as well. If given such an environment the best deal involves Microsoft then fine. Show us the paperwork and meeting minutes that lead up to that decision. Otherwise this is just further defrauding of local taxpayers.

From an educational point of view the best solution would be for school systems to sample from several sources. Why not expose kids to Microsoft, Apple, Linux and maybe a few other things? For the most part these systems work well together on the same networks. Otherwise the company with the most money (in this case MS) eventally figures out that giving product away to schools is the best way to keep market share down the line. I think it would be better to have some selection even if the school system had to actually pay for copies of some things.

I don't understand

[nberardi]

I don't understand why Microsoft is always hit with this inovation crap. First off the goal of a business is not to innovate. That is what Universities do the goal of a business is to sell your product at a price and keep people comming back to that product. At least in the software business. So far Microsoft has done a great job at that. And yes they have inovated, anybody taken a look at the new display system they have for Longhorn?

Re:I don't understand

[kahei]

Yes, I've looked at it. It's reminiscent of the old NeXT display system in some ways :)

In general, though, I agree and I am very glad that MS innovations like embeddable gui components and app servers are now part of the software culture as a whole.

It's cool that the 2 examples given of MS non-innovation are both endlessly copied by the free software people.

Someone who just found out about Linux last month will now mod me down ;)

Re:I don't understand

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why they shouldn't have started the innovation crap in the first place. Remember it was MS themselves who claimed of being the master of innovativity.

No, I'm New Here

[New Here]

No, I'm New Here

Re:OS the little private Elementary School? Though

[gentgeen]

I would say - Give it a shot. At least on a small scale (ie. one classroom at a time) I am a teacher at a small charter school in Pittsburgh PA. I used a current DELL (shipped with XP) and installed K12LTSP. The dumby terminals and switch was all donations from the local LUG. It cost the school 1 computer (that they already had), and now I have 8 student computers in the class.

Best of all is when a student comes in from the lab (all XPs) and asks to use "my lab" cause they like it better. Some say it runs faster, some say they have less problems, some say they just like it. I really don't care why, it is just great!!

Now I even have a science teacher wanting me to put one in here room.

Re:OS the little private Elementary School? Though

[J_Omega]

Hehee, Gentgeen. Small world. My mom's school is also in the 'Burgh.

AFAIK, their comp guy who's helped in the past has had his children enrolled in the school. They're all gone now, so he's trying to get away from supporting them.

I'll see if they'd let me set up a couple PCs with Linux on em. Some of the children are really quite bright, so perhaps those few will play with them more! At least it might be an alternative, but the OpenCDs sound like a start, regardless.

Re:GNUwin - private and religious schools

[codepunk]

NO I am not saying that LTSP is bad what I am saying is that experience shows that it is harder to deploy LTSP vs just remote X with linux loaded locally. The school I am currently doing involves pentium 133 machines and every thing runs just peachy. When I need to run on hardware that old I grab a vector linux disk and have at it. I use ghost to duplicate client disks and I can do many machines in a hour. I also have a hacked slackware live distro that lets me deploy up to a hundred clients in a hour or two.
Dont get me wrong I use the same concepts as
LTPS but it is not as messy. The only change I make to the client is the inittab entry. /usr/X11R6/bin/X -query theremoteserver.com . I run hundreds of clients like this and I would do it no other way. 10 to 40 workstations is nothing I run minimum 150 worstations per server in this fashion and to top that I use failover clustering as well. LTSP is cool but dealing with nic drivers, video drivers, remote nfs home, dhcp, the LTSP config stuff etc is a pain in the arse and is a bunch of work and complexity just so you can run without a disk. My prefered platform for new thin clients is a mini-itx with a 32 meg compact flash. This setup boots in under 15 seconds, is read only, runs on 17 watts, and costs only 185 bucks per system.

Re:As a Public School Teacher, I Think This is Doo

[Captain_Chaos]

No one uses it.

Then what do they use, since StarOffice is presumably all that's installed on the laptops? Illegal copies of Word?

lack of innovation in linux

[Anonymous Coward]

>emphasises the lack of innovation in Internet Explorer and MS-Office.

So Linux distros actually have innovation from version to version?

The end user desktop side of linux is essentially cloning the current crop of Microsoft desktop software abet with a much less friendly user interface.

The server side of linux is marginally different than windows NT/2000/2003 server.

The programming side is in windows favor since most of the mainstream scripting languages (perl, python, etc), eclipse, and visual studio all run on win32.

The only clear place where linux is innovative is that you can have an almost fully functional os bootable from a cd rom.

Re:lack of innovation in linux

[Anonymous Coward]

no, the linux desktop is different to windows. It takes parts of wndows,KDE and amigaos. I find it much MORE friendly than anything other than MacOS.

The reason linux now looks similar to windows nt is because Microsoft is RIPPOING OFF UNIX. Duh.

All the windows programming languages have horrible kludges - not really their fault, workarounds for Win32 stupidities usually, but the linux versions generally work much better.

Re:lack of innovation in linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Admit defeat, the larger linux end user desktop applications are largely cloned from MS Office and Adobe Photoshop.

Other than eclipse, programming on unix is console based and the console based programming environment for perl, python, ruby and other major languages is equivalent.

C and C++ are much better on win32 when using visual studio.

Lose your anti-MS bigotry and accept that end users, developers, and system operators should be able to pick the best, in their opinion, piece of software for any particular task.

Linux

[phreak03]

I've got some proffesors going over to Iraq to help rebuild the education system, anyone know a good linux build that i could combine with a arabic version of openoffice.........

Re:Linux

[phr4gmonk3y]

Wouldn't Knoppix with a Arabic language hack work? Of course, you'd have to use the older version, so it could work well with older systems. This of course is assuming you're professors are using the computers already there (An image like this wouldn't hurt however if they're bringing their own systems)

Not Totally M$...

[phr4gmonk3y]

"Most schools are immersed in a Windows monoculture."

Yes and no. As stated before, many schools also run mac systems. I know my school has at least one lab devoted to iMacs. My main point however, is that we are not tottally imerssed in windows systems. I have a teacher for tech right now. He knows that I'm a fellow geek. I start talking to him, and this guy is totally pro linux. The door has a Red Hat sticker. He doesn't seem to have any objections when he notices I'm surfing on XBox Linux in my spare time and am doing it in knoppix in Mozilla. In fact, he seems happy about it, and then shows me the specs on the new solaris system he's going to get for his networking class. A student from another period (presumably this networking class) walks in getting a binder. His shirt has the text "overclocked"

My point is, that while the masses at the school are running windows, a majority of the systems also are not M$. I would bet that the school site isn't being run on IIS, it's apache.

True, we don't have linux for the masses in the schools yet, but we certainly have a stronghold in some regard. To tell the truth, we haven't truly mastered linux for the desktop anyway. It would be a steep learning curve for someone to move to linux who is so used to windows. Our main focus should be to get Desktop Linux suitable for the average joe. Until then, we geeks still can still run the school through open source.

vietnam again - lin-cds kicks (MS) butt

[h0lug]

... just building a bit on both this story and the earlier slashdot conflag' entitled Vietnam goes open source

Two great new Vietnamese language Linux CD-distros are now available -- and make great toys for loading up Windows or Linux partitions straight past most file security most people apply:

01 KDLC 9.2 rc1 - Mandrake/Gnome based, ftp iso download

02 knoppix 3.3 caugiay - Knoppix/KDE based, ftp iso download

We're approaching fully localized OSS OS's and Office suites for the vast majority of the 80 million plus Vietnamese who can neither speak English nor afford MS's global one-price policy for licenses.

NB: MS promised an effective Viet-localized Windows/Office release back in '95. But, to date, nothing they've delivered has made a dent in the pirated US-English MS Vietnam-market-share (90%+).

Viva la HeteroISCult[TM,01]!
Down with HomoISCult [02].

All the best from,
The h0z at h0lug

Notes:
[01] heterogenous info-systems culture
[02] What does inbred pitbulls and an MS-monopolized IS infrastructure have in common? They're both crazed and dangerous.

Microsoft easier in education that OSS

[master_p]

It's easier for a teacher armed with Windows to teach computers to small children than using Linux, because Windows have a more consistent GUI and the need for diving into the command line is less often.

On the other hand, children are like sponges, they learn much quicker, and it's far more likely to become experts in Linux rather than their teachers; something most teachers would like to avoid.

There are also economical reasons (i.e. MS giving away Windows and Office) for MS dominance.

So, I don't expect MS to be replaced with Linux anytime soon.

Re:Microsoft easier in education that OSS

[pandrijeczko]

>>Windows have a more consistent GUI and the need >>for diving into the command line is less often.

Please justify this statement. Linux has a large number of GUIs admittedly but those considered to be most "Windows-like" (i.e. that include a number of built-applications like text editors, email programs, etc.) are Gnome and KDE. Both desktop environments have application menus on a button in the bottom left of the screen, a taskbar to which windows are iconified, etc. Added to this, applications within each are compiled to specific Gnome or QT libraries giving a consistent "look and feel" to the applications.

I therefore do not see how the "consistent GUI" argument can be applied.

Also, I would be grateful if you would explain under what circumstances a standard user using Gnome or KDE might need to resort to the command line? The only time I can see this happening is that on some occasions it's necessary to run a "which" or a "find" to find the location of an application so as to create a shortcut icon to it on the desktop - hardly a great problem.

Also, try to perform network diagnostics on a Windows PC without having to resort to "ipconfig", "nslookup", "ping" or "tracert" on the command line.

My concern here is that you are a Windows-oriented user - that's fine, use what OS you are comfortable with and whatever applications you like using. However, please do not decry Linux until you have tried it to a much greater extent than you already clearly have done - you argument is based purely on supposition, not on fact.

Why do we continue to get Windows people who have never used Linux thinking they know all about Linux? If anything, the Linux people on Slashdot (including myself) are always well-informed about Windows also so can put up intelligent arguments - most Windows people use many of the same old tired arguments that they've read elsewhere on the Internet that frequently no longer apply to Linux due to its maturity now.

Re:Microsoft easier in education that OSS

[master_p]

I use RedHat 9. Bad menus, bad naming, bad font rendering, ugly colors & graphics, slow and unresponsive gui, programs in wrong places in the menus, copy&paste does not work across all apps, each app has its own look and feel inside the top-level window, its own file dialogs, drag-n-drop is a joke, and many times I need to dip in the command line to do my job.

Are these enough ?

GNUwin II

[Cronopios]

Another great similar offering is GNUwin II , which has been worked out for quite some time.

They maintain over 100 Free Software packages for Windows, and their website is available in about 8 different languages.

Besides downloading/purchasing the CD, you can also download single packages from their website.

When I have to use a Windows box, it's the first site I visit (can't live without vim :).

Re:GNUwin II

[Perky_Goth]

Really! This is a great way to get to know programs and games. I've looked at the 3 sites and there's really a lot of interesting stuff. It'll make my life more interessting for the next months :P

Re:As a Public School Teacher, I Think This is Doo

[pandrijeczko]

Great comment!

Let's see what all these owners of illegal copies of MS Office do when DRM has it's evil little way with their PCs and stops them running software they've not paid for!

I think they'll get off their butts then and start learning cheaper / free alternatives...

Cool

[ajs318]

I like the sound of this. How long till someone replicates its functionality, but based on a bootable GNU/Linux OS on the CD? Yes yes yes, I know about Knoppix and Slackware LiveCD - but I'm thinking of a much closer correspondence between the two editions. Ideally to the point where the user would neither know nor care whether they were using the Windows or the Linux version.

For academic use...

[Anonymous Coward]

add these to the list:

-Octave (open source matlab)
-The R project (great statistical software)
-LaTeX/Lyx
-Anjuta (c/c++ devstudio for linux)
-pybliographer (to know what you read)

just the stuff I use frequently...

Re:Hacking the high school network..

[Doug Loss]

OK, here are some starting points for Linux in Arabic:

http://www.arabiclinux.com/
http://www.arabeyes .org/
http://www.linux-me.org/
http://www.linux4 arab.com/ (you need to read arabic for this one)
http://www.langbox.com/arabic/
http://www.l inuxarabia.com/
http://www.iraqilinux.org/

Those should do for a start.

Re:MOD PARENT AS A TROLL!

[Anonymous Coward]

RUDE WORDS !! Oh, the shock. *Bows*.

Re:GNUwin - private and religious schools

[LDoggg_]

10 to 40 workstations is nothing I run minimum 150 worstations per server in this fashion and to top that I use failover clustering as well.

There's nothing stopping anyone from attaching that many terminals to an LTSP server or server cluster. In fact many other people are doing just that. There will only be about 60 on the server I set up, because that's all there is room for in the school.

LTSP is cool but dealing with nic drivers, video drivers, remote nfs home, dhcp, the LTSP config stuff etc is a pain in the arse and is a bunch of work and complexity just so you can run without a disk.

Not sure where this is coming from.
I simply put a bootable NIC in an old workstation, disconnect the old hard drive, and things just work.
The only time I have to configure a workstation is if it has an old ISA soundcard, and that's just a couple of lines in lts.conf.
I'm still using ltsp 3, but I heard this has gotten much simpler in version 4.
Just curious, are you able to get sound to work on your thin clients?

My prefered platform for new thin clients is a mini-itx with a 32 meg compact flash. This setup boots in under 15 seconds, is read only, runs on 17 watts, and costs only 185 bucks per system.

That sounds like a really cool setup. I wish the school I volunteer for had that kind of money.
I spend about 10 to 30 bucks per workstation depending on whether I need a bootrom for an existing NIC or just buy a new NIC with a rom. I think if I had an extra 150 bucks for each one, I'd buy flatscreens for them.

Re:As a Public School Teacher, I Think This is Doo

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhmm...

Star Office can export to .doc and PDF. That's one of the reasons you would use it.