Slashdot Mirror
British Health System Looks at Linux
DanBrusca writes "The Observer is reporting that Britain's biggest employer, the National Health Service, may ditch Microsoft due to mounting licence costs. 'Richard Granger, NHS IT director, has ordered a trial of a Linux-based system from Sun Microsystems as part of a UKP2.3 billion computer modernisation plan. The plan could see Java Desktop software rolled out across the NHS's 1 million staff and 800,000 computers to replace Microsoft's Windows operating system and Office suite of programmes.'"
What happens to the doctors who want to keep using Windows?
I have been pwned because my
now the british health system... it's amazing how the same operating system that cio's thought of as a science project a year ago can get the big contracts with nothing more than a respectable corporate name on the outside of the box.
2 1337 4 u!
Who? The patient with the heart condition? Or the doctor using Windows?
Linux is an 'open-source' system for running computers invented by a young Finnish student in 1991 and refined by thousands of programmers working together across the internet.
how long until they stop seeing it necessary to give linux a definition? i kinda wonder why they feel like 'quoting' open-source in this too, do they think they're lying? =D
My other sig is an import.
Charles Andrews, Sun Microsystem's public sector head, said licence cost savings would come to tens of millions of pounds directly. 'And we won't force people to upgrade computers and technology on a 2-3 year cycle either. Customers can upgrade when they need to,' he said.
Not a troll, but Linux is immune from upgrades? This is not the way to convince people to use Linux, by implying that once you install/download Linux, you can walk away without any more upgrades. I wish he had been more clear about the costs involved instead of being so vague.
is it that bad seein a hot chick again? if i see a hot chick walkin down the hall i dont say "repost"
I just gotta say, it's about time. How long will people waste trying to make do with windows, while a completely viable linux system is out there.
and of course....
I for one welcome our british docs ^H^H^H^H overlords
This sig is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate.
Everyone in the world seems to be evaluating Linux on the desktop. And why not? It makes perfect sense. At most, you get a viable alternative to Microsoft; at worst, you get discounts from Microsoft.
Well, let me correct that. Everyone in the world but in the United States. Why is it that the US companies and organizations (starting with the ^$!* Universities!) are the only ones blind to the potential of FOSS (and the interaction between FOSS and a RAIS (Redundant Array of Inexpensive Students) hacking on it!), or at least to the fact that Microsoft will give them a discount if they at least look at the competition?
--
Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
I get me brain medicine from the National Health!
The National Health Service, Britain's biggest employer, is considering ditching Microsoft software after a row over mounting licensing costs.
What's the chance that MS will be offering them a heavily discounted plan after this.
I might be a little cynical but could it just be the NHS trying to get a better deal from MS?
And you know what? It looks as though it's working. Getting their desktop act together combined with StarOffice and excellent support may help Sun out of it's doldrums after all.
I have to admit that I wasn't sold on the 'Java' desktop (whatever), but it seems that they are pushing the right buttons here.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
Sun seem to have done the right thing, at the right time. I assume the Java Desktop thingo doesnt have huge licence fees, because then there would be no point in people using it, if their sole reason was to get away from Microsoft!
:)
Good on Sun! Someone had to do it, and really, who else could have pulled it off? And dont say Apple
Great, Grand, Wonderful... Everybody on the BUS!
Giving IE users a taste of their own medicine since 2005 - http://pods.-is-a-geek.net/
"The National Programme for IT in the NHS will eventually bring in services such as electronic booking of appointments and transfer of prescriptions."
Doesn't this phrase seem a bit odd in it self. Since when could you transfer a perscription a la dead tree format, nevermind electronicaly.
Ride recklessly only when safe to do so.
"Just wait until X starts crashing on them and they can't get their plug'n play scanner working..." Blah, Blah, Blah.
Hmmm.. Installing software or hardware in this sort of environment shouldn't be left to users in the first place. If YOU don't know what you're doing that's your own problem.
I know plenty of doctors offices locally either using Unix-based apps under Windows (which really sucks), or are still using DOS-based ones (Wow, pick your poison). Please keep in mind that a national healthcare network shouldn't have to worry about whether or not it can play Half-Life 2.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
As much as I like Linux, the front end needs to mature a bit before going into such a high risk environment where, most of the time, every second is a matter of life and death.
Linux Desktop System would be more accurate. Don't you think ? Don't forget . Sun is payrolling SCO by paying that IP license and has always distrusted linux. Ripping the nametag Linux off the OS software and replacing it with a Java title is something a greedy company would do.
thats it, im growing 1 eye brow, and moving to england!
He called me complaining that I should have tried harder to convince him to switch away from Windows.
..........FULL STOP.
If anything I'm surprised that this doesn't happen more often. The license savings on 800,000 machines should come to a number that you have to an idiot to not seriously look into.
/IBM commercial on TV today. Not there standard E-server commercials, but just on the merits of Linux.
Where as the license savings on the 20 machines at work comes to a small enough amount we don't decide it's worth porting the one program we require on windows so we don't think about it much. We also however don't upgrade very often, 10 95's 5 98's and a few others just for testing purposes.
Now having said this, we're moving our product to linux, partially for the higher margins we can get when we don't have to pay license fees on the servers we sell and partially because the old OS is expensive garbage that should have been retired 10 years ago. The massive number of free tools helps with the move, and the advertising push people like IBM have been doing really helps with the customers and the boss. I actually saw my first Linux
The workplace is definitely changing and it's not at all like I guessed it would be 10 years ago when I started school.
And universal healthcare all in one big package!
/sarcasm
Thank god the Republicans saved us from Hillary back in 1993!
This is a result of previous government directives to start looking at Linux solutions in the government. This is something that has not trickled down all the officials to get as far as being a policy announcement in the left wing press here (of which the Observer is just one example.
Obviously this is a better situation than before, when government directives insisted that Microsoft solutions be looked at first, so far as anyone can tell simply because Tony Blair did not understand computers but did enjoy Bill Gates' company when they met - they are a similar age, and see themselves as similar global figures, and I personally think they have a similar contemptable attitude to people who are ultimately their paymasters. Now Tony Blair is politically weaker, following the recent Gulf war not being popular within the Labour Party, but really it would be better if this was happening according to other reasons.
The story was supposed to read:
;-)
"British Health System Looks at Linux; Tells it to Quit Smoking and Exercise More"
Sometimes I wish I were living in a modern progressive country like the U.K. instead of my current home in the third-world technological backwater that the United States is so quickly becoming.
I know, I can love it or leave it, eh? How totally sixties of you. Besides, it's way late and I'm just lolling and trolling about....
The UK government spends millions on institutions like universities allowing them to research and develop all sorts of free software, ranging from kernel security features (StegFS, Cambridge) to userspace applications like text-to-speech (Festival TTS, Edinburgh) and VoIP (VIC, UCL). It only makes sense that they should reap the benefits. Why pay twice for something?
You do realize that Britain's health system is socialist don't you? Under socialism, you take what is given to you.
Oh My God. A health system where you will be treated regardless, where you can get a heart bypass, a kidney transplant, cancer therapy or IVF treatment without someone first asking for your health insurance details or your credit card number and you choose to dismiss it because it's egalitarian?
I'm sorry, but I think a government has a few basic responsibilities towards its citizens. Making sure that it does its best to keep them all in good health by providing them all with decent medical care regardless of their ability to pay or their social standing is a good thing.
A sick child that needs a vital operation is a sick child that needs a vital operation. Whether or not her parents can afford to pay for whatever it takes to make her well again should not factor into the equation.
If this is what you decry as "socialist" then give me a "socialist" society any day of the week.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
The last thing you want is an obese penguin giving you health advice.
I can't wait until Longhorn is running on my hospital's computers so that I can feel secure in the knowledge that Microsoft is busy backing up and securing my health records on their personal servers...
See exact same comment here
Well, if they want to get something cheaper... why pay for Sun's services when you could simply run any free distro of linux like Debian or Slackware. Because 100% free is the way to be.
Select one of the choices below:
1. They threaten Microsoft and get their deep discount. Smart.
2. They buy into Sun and pay dearly for support as well as for rewriting all of their already working software. Stupid.
Somehow I think the entire point of this "switch" is to do #1.
If you think you see areas that could be changed so that services provided to you were faster, cheaper, and provided a greater profit margin to the provider, then in this 'backwater' you have the ability to go ahead and develop those systems and sell them to those providers.
There isn't some government agency that's going to wipe you out of the market like in this case with Britain.
People hate change,fuck the people just make the change it's for the better!
Sig: BEEeeeP,,Please press pound, so I can get on with my fucking life!
My wife works for the NHS here in London. We dual-boot here and she finds linux too difficult. She's OK to read email and the like but installation of hardware or software is just too difficult under linux for your average NHS worker (not that they're stupid, they just know about other things).
I see it in every linux debate I read - this will only succeed when linux becomes easier to use. No more editing obscure text files or reading howto's. Things just have "to work" before people will change
(OK, things don't always "just work" in MS, but mostly it does and people need some incentive to sell them on a change like that).
It seems that NHS is looking at *Sun* and their tech support and not Linux.
As others have pointed out this isn't a victory for Linux...Sun isn't exactly the biggest fan of penguin branded OS and kernels. Heck they don't even call it Linux.
Actually it's not Windows that I am locked into at work, it's Office.
I have yet to find a way to get past Exchange and Citrix effectively. We looked at a few solutions that cames close, but the administration costs FAR outweighed the licensing savings (although Citrix licenses are astronomical). The other problem is that our document management system (necessary by law due to Sarbanes-Oxley Act) is iManage which only works with office and costs $75K.
[RIAA] says its concern is artists. That's true, in just the sense that a cattle rancher is concerned about its cattle.
This is great. Linux has gone from a university project in a country which has never had an empire to moving in on the largest software company in the world, all within a little over ten years. This is awesome achievement. Here on /. we spend a lot of time griping about not being able to cut and paste between KDE and Gnome apps, and complaining about the fact that the latest wireless card doesn't have a driver in Debian Unstable, etc, but let's take a moment to think about how awesome this is, thank those who made it happen (Linus and a cast of millions) and also think about what we are doing as part of it. Writing a new device driver? Helping a friend set it up? Or posting as AC on /.? Whatever it is, we have to give back to it somehow.
Just change it one day after they have gone home. They probably won't notice a difference.
Don't come over here unless you're a hard-working protestant heterosexual caucasian male. You might end up in one of our camps where we keep the foreign riff-raff out of sight and out of mind.
I wonder what Clippy would think about them considering Linux. When they try to delete him, we might try to shut down the ICU just to remind 3v3ry1 that bi11 0wnz j00.
Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
It is impossible to remove all of the Windows boxes and replace them with Linux Desktops and Open Office, but it may start some standardisation in an outfit that has every Windows OS from MSDos 6.2 to Windows XP (including a lot of stops along the way, 3.1 and ME).
For those using machines that do not require Windows, I see no problem in switching to a Linux Desktop. Or site uses Novell as well for the backend, so Linux is definitely in our future.
read more here!
Lemme guess...
-It's an entire system involving servers and backend software, not just the desktops
-They get the hardware and support in the same package
-Sun's distro is customised for standardised desktops, easy roll-out and maintenance unlike regular distros
-They get a company who they can pin problems on
-They already know and trust Sun, since it provides their current server hardware
I'm sorry if I haven't offended anyone
Hmmmmm so 1 million Gnome desktops in China, and another 800,000 in the UK?
:)
KDE is getting creamed, thanks Sun!
So since Gizmodo now has good stuff days before Slashdot, does that mean Slashdot will just be a place that announces press releases for everyone that decides not to use Windows anymore?
Without viruses, many Hospital employees would be obsolete!
Cover your eyes and click this link!
Wait a second, they're turning to Sun to save money? *Scratches head*
and his hospital, University of Missouri-Columbia's I think is the one he is at, they have been running Linux and MySQL for a couple years. I don't know for sure what data they are storing, but he said they haven't had any problems to speak of and are pleased with it speed and realiablity.
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
My parents are both currently working in the NHS, my Dad's a consultant at the local hospital, whereas my Mum's a GP.
The way that they use computers (mainly for work) is fairly simple. My Dad will use some form of presentation building software - for preparing talks at meetings, a web browser - for filling in his "education" points list, and a word processor - for writing letters. That's it - for work both at home and at the hospital where he works. I've found that once the computer has Linux installed on it, he's got no real problems (using GNOME as a Window Manager) doing this tasks. He likes StarOffice Impress, and he's commented that Galeon is faster than Internet Explorer.
My Mum, is generally the same, she needs a scanner - for preparing practice booklets, or information leaflets, a word processor, an email client, and that's about it. At work, she says, I just "put in my password, click OK, and then click on the program icon". Now, that's not something that'd be hard to implement on Linux. Also, being part of a General Practice, they have to purchase their own computers, and software. She has commented before on the cost of the software, and how it seems to be "paying a lot for not very much".
My thoughts? Can Linux be implemented as a desktop implementation for users? Definitely. The user does not need to install software, or hardware for that matter - they cannot at the moment, as they're not "administrators" on their own machines.
Remote management would be easier, IMHO, and there'd be less problems with network floods due to virii that inevitably end up on the Windows systems.
The Police in our area, West Yorkshire, UK, have already made the switch and are running their systems on Linux. This, to me, is an indicator of how Linux, when properly implemented, can be used on the desktop. If the NHS do come up with a decent solution, I'd imagine they'll see the benefits (probably mainly cost benefits).
This post is based purely on personal experience
really, replace step 1 with Gov't instead of employer. That saves the employers lots of money, does it not?
This is my sig.
YHBT. YHL. HAND.
(But you're right, nonetheless.)
that places like hospitals would have their own operating systems, or a goverment-only standards operating system, what happens when a virus gets on these windows computers.. or even worse, it simply blue screens when it's keeping somebody's heart beating!
is exactly what the peguin recommends!!!!
See my journal, I write things there
> With the Linux solution you have the ability to
> add support for new hardware yourself if the
> vendor chooses not to.
This is really pretty ironic. I mean, whenever new hardware comes out, the first thing that is done is to write drivers for every windows OS under the sun (except 3.x and lower, perhaps).
On the other hand, sometimes drivers *never* get written for *nix. That situation has improved vastly in the last few years, but is still the case--new hardware often doesn't have drivers for the "free" OSes.
To suggest that it's very likely that a driver would be available for *nix (at least x86) when it isn't for windows, is laughable. You're inventing a non-scenario. Although occaisonally one may find hardware that isn't supported on older windows OSes, it happens far more on even recent version of *nix, and frequently on older versions (especially with proprietary drivers). A FreeBSD driver I'm using (Highpoint) isn't available for any version before 4.1 (or any Linux before 7.0).
The idea of writing your own driver for new hardware is ludicrous. Sure it's possible, but rather than do that, most people would just buy hardware that did have a driver available (I just did that the other day for a FreeBSD system).
Your argument misses one crucial point, as well: there is no reason one can't write drivers for windows. Frankly, I wouldn't want to do either, for hardware that I didn't build myself, but if it's so important to use the new hardware that you'd write a Linux driver, a windows one should be possible as well.
I do agree with you on other points, however, and I dislike MSes forced upgrades. But to act as if Linux's hardware support is somehow an advantage is a little disingenous. It may be easier to write a Linux device driver by using existing open-source ones, I admit. But new hardware is always going to be a pain on old OSes, and that's not Microsoft's fault.
-Dan
Once businesses learn that the most expensive component of any new computer is windows.
If you were using unix/linux, then there would be no market for Citrix..... X is network aware, so you could use remote apps, as if they were local. Citrix is just a hack to attempt to bring the same functionality to windows.
Just a thought: Isnt it more likely, since it is Sun, that theyll end up with Java Desktop and Staroffice? If not, isnt it a happy coincidence that this story shares the same page as this one?
Not only would they not have to install hardware or software, but it would be quite beneficial for the users to not be able to run the spyware/virus/crap filled programs that users tend to install from the internet despite IT policy. While Windows can be locked down in theory, in practice many applications aren't written with multiple users in mind and the required security methods can't be implemented so every user runs as root. That is not true of UNIX applications, of course.
501 Not Implemented
This is pure dealing with Microsoft, there is not a hope that Linux will be generally taken on.
And Microsoft will recognise that too.
If they had wanted to take it seriously, they would have required Linux solutions when they put out the original tender in April. They didn't.
"Without viruses, many Hospital employees would be obsolete!"
Yes, but the blue-screens are a real bitch.
Reid has already approved a budget of 2.3bn, so this means the NHS information technology programme has almost doubled in price, before it's even got started.
-- The Register
The real culprit isn't Microsoft here, it's EDS! Find the ministers taking the backhanders to make sure EDS get the contracts and JAIL THEM.
Jon
Why does a country that prides education so much have a high illiteracy rate?
You mistook pride in teachers unions for pride in education.
Better to keep the teachers unions alive, after all, than let far better qualified teachers teach or allow vouchers so people can allocate resources efficiently that otherwise would be squandered.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Having to work alongside NHS IT Support, I would have to say it's rather unlikely that there will be a mass migration to Linux. Firstly, they are still moving onto Win2K and many machines are on 95/98 ( a) they won't ditch years of work even for savings and b) to do so would be to admit that they made a costly error). Secondly, do you know how hard it is to get hold of medical staff in the first place? It's unfeasible to just walk in and upgrade them to a completely different system; the support calls will go through the roof. The staff will need to be kept in the 'loop' during the whole process. Finally, the 'culture' of the users in the NHS is that they are pretty resistant to change, even upgrading their browser from IE5 to 6 can take weeks! Some are still using Eudora 3.0!
--
Two words.
"Commercial Support"
100% Free Distros are all well and good, but for something as large as the NHS it'd be useful to have a commercial support contract running.
Plus, as someone else mentioned, hardware would probably come as part fo the package. So any software and hardware support would all go through one central place. Plus, more importantly, you could be pretty damn sure that all hardware will be supported by the software.
TiggsMeaning an easier life for the on-site admins.
Tiggs
"120 chars should be enough for everyone..."
hopefully moving to Linux will help combat the problems various NHS trusts had with recent computer virus attacks - I know of one Trust where for weeks access to online medical records was only possible for a short amount of time every day.. makes one wonder how big the human cost of computer viruses is..
We hate Sun,
Sun hates Linux and Open Source,
We hate Sun,
IBM is our best friend,
We hate Sun,
HP likes to help us too,
We hate Sun,
Sun's a pile of steaming poo,
We hate Sun.
etc.
Despite all evidence to the contrary.
Stick Men
..is slightly more accurate! ;)
I agree with the last statement about being sure that all the hardware will be supported by the software, but that could just as easily be achieved by having an NHS approved release of Linux, and doing its own technical support in house. With 800,000 users, you need a large measure of support only answerable to you anyway.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
Let's see.
A bird species that doesn't even remember how to fly anymore....
A Good Intro to NetBS
You don't know what socialism is, do you?
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
Not enough doctors, nurses, hospitals so the costs are high. That's why healthcare is expensive.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
but microsoft would know that too. so all they have to do is merely offer a deal which just happens to be cheaper than a migration - no deep discount there afaict.
You just linked to a link to this same parent post . . . WTF?
Note that when in opposition, the Labour party repeatedly condemned the then Conservative government for allowing this to continue (and rightly so). But as soon as they (Labour) got in to power the back-handers arrived and things got even worse. It's easily as bad as American politians and their 'special interest groups' (read, campaign donations) - only less visible to the general public.
This makes it very unlikely that Linux will ever make headway into the public sector. The UK government (especially the delightful Mr Blair) is in Microsoft's pocket - whenever an IT related decision is to be made, a certain Mr Gates makes a sizable donation to some public sector institution (and probably Blair himself). Plus EDS et al will favour Windows as they lack the talent to build/maintain anything else.
Yeah, because supporting 800.000 desktops is trivial and won't take any resources that's worth any money, and as the National Health Service you really ought to spend your time on employing and managing IT staff instead of just contracting with someone to do it for you. Has it occurred to you that growing their IT staff sufficiently to handle something like this might be significantly more costly than paying Sun?
#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
int main( int argc, char *argv[] )
{
int i,j, k;
if( argc < 3 )
return( EXIT_FAILURE );
i = atoi( argv[1] );
j = atoi( argv[2] );
for( k = 0; k < i; k++ )
{
printf( "/b" );
sleep( j );
}
return( EXIT_SUCCESS );
}
because it will create a big demand for those with Linux skills to support those boxes. And I for one intend to be at the front of the queue... and deity help any MCSE waver who thinks he can jump it...
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
Let's hope it happens, but I have to admit that this does smell of the NHS trying to apply pressure on Microsoft for discounts. Whether it happens or not, that the story itself exists and is credible is really bad news for Microsoft.
Non-US public sector, where corporate America is not that popular right now could offer a real shot in the arm for OSS. Their software purchasing decisions are as much about politics as technology. Whatever the reasoning, a few big projects like this will mean real budgets, real users and absolute cast iron customer reference sites...
True, they don't ask for your credit card number in the NHS. They ask for your postcode. This "postcode lottery" applies to IVF probably more strongly than to any other treatment. A government advisory body has recommended that this be changed, but there are fears about the cost.
Like the US, you get much better care in the UK if you can afford private insurance. If you can't, then you can get treated for free, but you will probably have to wait for months and you might get second-rate treatment (not because the doctors and nurses are crap but because they are overstretched and lack drugs and equipment).
Having lived in both the UK and US I honestly can't tell which system is better. Uninsured friends of mine in the US have managed to find healthcare they can afford, but they've had to endure the waiting times that are the norm in Britain's NHS. One thing that often happens in the US system (on TV at least, I've not seen it happen but I'm sure it does) is that patients without insurance but with assests (eg savings, own home, etc) are forced to give up everything to get the treatment, before any kind of government assistance kicks in. This doesn't generally happen in the UK, unless you need permanent care (eg, in a nursing home for the elderly), or you have a deadly disease and are too scared to wait for the NHS to treat you.
So let me get this straight. The NHS is dumping MS because it costs too much, but they are now going to spend 2.3Bn (is that a british billion or american? must be american) on Linux? Could they not reuse hardware? Im totally for ridding the world of Microsoft but sometimes it seems people are just bandwagon jumping and have no idea what they are doing.
PS. Running a medical computer system is not bloody state-of-the art. If microsofts' OS had been stable years ago then they wouldnt need to upgrade every year just to use some database app thats probably 10 years old itself.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
They're both enormously bloated and inefficient, plagued by hard-to-stop bugs and apt to absorb gigantic amounts of money in return for very little...
the mention of java prompted the thought for me:
"special hardware for java"
A blog I run for the wealth
Never registered with a GP in 8 years then I had a real bad cold nothing seemed to get rid of. 3 weeks on and hugging myself in pain every time I caughed, I went to see the local GP.
Jesus, that was bad. The building was run down, everybody looked like thugs, even the nurse I dealt with had tatoos on her knuckles!!!
So when I was invited to come back 2 days later (the day you could go without an appointment), I just got plain scared.
Was a cold really worth catching some crap in the waiting room? The fuck it was. Instead, I drank a bottle of soju (chinese medicine) and put some honey in my tea. That did the trick. I'm never ever going to see a GP ever again.
The link redirects to www.sonymusicstore.com, where presumably the linker gets a commission.
I have trialed him on linux at home, and he liked it a lot, and was impressed by the quality you get for free (I showed RH9 back when it was current ;) )
The only thing i think he'd miss is the easy syncing of his Palm PDA with a PIM program - he's practically addicted to Palm Desktop
Many of the patient electronic records information systems are already Unix based (Data General's Unix DG/UX, Solaris, SunOS, Digital Unix/Tru64, SCO UnixWare, HP/UX, and I think we few others I forgot). I use to develop one of the major ones.
When I joined one of the private companies which only provides medical IS software, I wasted a month realising that the Linux based solution I was developing wouldn't be accepted because the NHS Trust wanted a Windows based solution. So I spent a week trying to understand and get actual prices and sources for discounted licenses for Microsoft's server software. A quarter of the budget for this project involving custom software went to Microsoft license fees.
The reason it had to be Windows? A serious systemic lack of resources and skills. Any IT personnel working for the NHS who has enough skills to administer a Unix machine (or has actually completed their MCSE exams even) ends up taking a better paying job elsewhere. So the NHS Trusts end up relying on untrained IT staff and nurses who have moved into IT to get away from shift work. Nevermind the fact there was a 2 to 1 ratio of managers to tehnical staff (yes, 2 managers, 1 system administrator).
I have never seen such a screwed up system on such a large scale before. It is almost impressive just how broken the NHS IA / IT is.
But perfectly adapted for "flying" underwater...
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
"Invest" another $250 million in SCO before this cancer spreads any further
Good. One less company feeding the Microsuck Corpulation money that they use to sqash innovation and abuse customers.
So Sun has found their niche!
Now SGI just has to port all its realtime video compositing and reality simulation to high-density linux on Blue Gene (didn't they port Performer to linux?) and we'll have three gods of Open Hardware as horsemen to start this century off with a bang!
I'm just scared M$ will get a clue somewhere along the line (they may be evil but surely the richest man in the world ain't dumb), but so far they play a good Darth Vader to our rebel army. It looks like we've finally got momentum, now turn on that exponential metric thing!
Now we need a company like Eazel to polish it up, with a business plan.
I never fail to be amazed at the things that can actually FIT up that nasty nasty crevace! THANKS to slashdot for robbing me of my precious innocense!
Not going to happen.
I am a senior developer for one of the application providers for NPfIT, and I can personally guarantee it ain't going to happen. The applications that the NHS will be running for the next five years are going to be set in stone by the end of this year, and none of them are required to run under Linux.
Some of them will do, cos they are legacy systems running on Vaxen or mainframes, but most of them are windows apps, and ain't going to change now.
Everything else is a pipe-dream.
From A British Taxpayer. The British government has been taken for a ride so many times by IT companies promising the earth but building systems which don't work properly. The taxpayer generally picks up the additional costs of getting it right. With this new round of major NHS projects someone in government - don't know who - was inspired. They employed Richard Granger to oversee the process. The man's a rottweiller. At the start of the bidding round he told the consortia that thing would be different now. They would not get paid for failure, the NHS would not pay for systems until they were proven in practice. If they didn't like the new terms of trade they should get out. Already one consortium has dropped out of bidding, whining that they would have to pay large penalty payments if their systems did not work. What did they expect? Did they have no confidence in their abilities? They screamed that it was not a proper partnership, they would have to take the risk of failure. Of course it is not a partnership. The company bids to supply a product or service; if that service fails it should be entirely at their own risk. That's what capitalism is all about; not the taxpayer subsidising their development work. Granger's obviously going to give Microsoft a hard time, he's got his teeth into their ankles and frankly I hope he bites their leg off. It would be of great benefit to the NHS and the British taxpayer in the long run. It would also demonstrate an alternative to the many in the British Government -Tony Blair are you listening - who think the sun shines out of Bill Gates arse (sorry-brit spelling).
Let's start taking bets on how long it will take before Shrub orders Blair to stop the project and make sure British NHS stays with Windows? I'm bettin g a month, tops.
Every opportunity for Linux, is an opportunity for us all. Perhaps a group should be started specifically to help answer questions people setting this up may have. I would expect they would need only Guru level advice.
It is also important that we as a community can do to make every major linux migration happen, and happen well. I, for one, do not want people to be able to point to a large Linux migration and think 'Failure'.
As a software developer in the medical industry, I can say that MS has been nothing but a constent bottle neck and burden. I can see where anybody who manages to get a Emergency Managment system together on Linux or BSD, will stand to make some good money.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
From the parent post: "The US is a seriously backward and disfunctional society,
This fits with my experience in other areas: History surrounding the U.S. war with Iraq: Four short stories.
The NHS IT director, Richard Granger, has a reputation for getting value for money, and not accepting bullshit from suppliers, so I doubt if he'd go for anything involving vendor lock-in to Sun. Granger has said:
There's more about this on my blog.The NHS asked Microsoft for a discount. At this point it's appropriate to recall that the NHS is Europe's biggest employer with 800,000 desktops, and oughtr to merit a big discount. MS would only offer a discount of "a few percentage points" which annoyed the NHS, who then decided to go for the Sun/Linux trial.
See NHS considers moving to Linux for details.
I expect the NHS will go with Linux if MS doesn't offer big discounts; they might go with Linux even if MS do offer big discounts - like Munich did.
I wonder if this merits a visit from Ballmer?
Can't believe Ive just typed "mod parent up" but i have to. The most sensible observations that I've read on this topic.
Good luck. Sun charges outrageous prices for Solaris systems. I doubt you'll get better results with their linux boxes.
Add to this that there are already a lot of UNIX Sun workstations in hospitals, driving medical imaging scanners and the like, so that a lot of the infrastructure and contacts are already in place.
It's a good point. The UK public sector has a terrible reputation for botching large-scale IT projects.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
Possible alternative headlines:
;)
Bad News:
British Health System tries to knock price of MS licence renewal down by claiming to consider Open Source.
Good News:
British Health System thinks Darl McBride's talking shit as well
Let's hold a slashdot poll
Hmmmmmm..... Deep fried and look like Squirrel.
The Industry Standard reports, 'The U.K. government has signed a five-year agreement with Sun Microsystems Inc. to potentially offer the company's new Java Desktop System (JDS) and Java Enterprise System (JES) software to public sector agencies as part of an overall open source push.'
> as part of a UKP2.3 billion computer
> modernisation plan
Uh, wouldn't that be GBP?
from time to time there are such ambitious projects set up, but consider the following... the NHS is by far one of the most conservative and conservatively minded orgationisations in the UK...
The secretaries won't like it... i personally installed staroffice for a couple of NHS secretaries to try it 'cos it had some good features that might've helped their work and they just looked at it and went back to MS word...
The NHS's computer staff, scattered in many hospitals, won't want to give up their MS products and use linux... it's just too much work for them...
the same mindset the NHS has for treatments and therapies they'll have too towards any computer systems... while the US and Europe, and the rest of the industrialised world, embrace state-of-the-art treatments and therapies... the NHS people look at anything trendy with despise and ridicule and stick to their 1940s ways...
The NHS is an organisation that has more administrative staff than hospital beds... if something needs to be done... no matter how trivial it is... they'll employ someone to do it... corporate efficiency isn't something that drives the NHS... that's just their mindset... they like to create a job, make someone responsible and accountable for it, and then totally forget about the whole thing... a hospital recently created a job called 5 portion coordinator... it basically is someone who tells people to eat 5 portions of fruit and vegetables a day!... this mindset stretches throughout the NHS.. don't look at the NHS to be an early adopter of anything... this is not a dynamic corporation
I am going to bet a 1000 to 1 (or is it a 1 to 1000, i never really bet... ) that this entire exercise is just something to get microsoft to give them a discount... the actual deal will definitely go to microsoft... as for the NHS adopting linux... wait till the entire world did... then wait a couple of decades... and then the NHS will...
I work for a large British railway infrastrucure provider, i.e. Network Rail!
We are are on the slippery slope to adopting Linux.
A lot of our internal finance systems are being switched over to the Oracle/Java E-business suite on Linux servers.
OK we are still on NT 4 desktops (we are very, very conservative as regards IT infrastructure). We will switch to Win2K desktops eventually. However, what happens after that is anyones guess. We already stripped Unisys of their IT support contract to save money, all our IT staff are now in-house. Linux does seem the next logical step. Several senior IT staff have hinted to me that wide-scale Linux adoption may be the next step they take.
We want cheap, very cheap. If we can train our own in-house IT staff to support Linux without having to pay outside companies then all the well.
Once companies realise that they can have a comprehensive and reliable IT infrastructure based on Linux, without havong to employ an outside firm such as Sun or IBM then Linux will become a big thing.
And as far as I am concerned the sooner the better!
Okay.
800,000 machines. Let's assume $125.00 US for the OS and $295.00 US for Office. That's $420.00 US.
So, we're talking about $336,000,000 going to Microsoft just for the basic OS and Office productivity software. This doesn't include all the money spent on Microsoft Premier Support, servers and the army of consultants required to support it all.
If you can keep the headcount stable, refactor most of your critical desktop apps to Java, and swap out the OS to something with a much cheaper license fee you could save a bundle and even have room to a) hire better-skilled I/T staff and b) provide better user support to offset the transition.
Not every OS changeover is an OMG-We-Are-Going-To-Die situation. I've lived through 8 OS changes in 4 different companies and everything came out fine in the wash.
That's all well and good. But with what are they going to replace the programs? *ducks*
This might be seen that the reasons behind this are purely down to cost...but the NHS is extremely top-heavy with managers (one manager per doctor I read recently), and their salaries push the cost up. Still, if you want to make savings..... ;-)
My web domain.
... or stupid exageration do not make your arguments stronger.
In no way it takes six months to see a doctor for a roe throat. If it is pretty bad most probably the GP will see you the same day or one can attend the walk-in centres that will take care of that asap.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I've just gotten through re-doing a lot of our support contracts at my last employer. I learned that in many jurisdictions, five years is the legal MINIMUM for a software support contract. It doesn't have to be cheap (woo hoo), but it does have to be available. In other words, you can't orphan a piece of software until 5 years after you've sold it.
Regards,
Jason Pollock
... that it hurts to read it.
May it just be that many organizations have realized that they are at the mercy of one supplier? A supplier that has broken the law?
Is that an inteligent position to be in?
Nope, but of course if people are wisening up is because they want more of the same punishment, but are willing to pay lees for the pleasure.
Give some credit to people, many are not brilliant, but masochism has its limits.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Is your wife a hardware technician or IT support person?
If yes she is underquialified and needs training.
If not, what the hell is she doing touching hardware back in the office?
Perhaps the NHS needs to review how they support IT infrastructure so people can concentrate on their work instead of wasting time doing things for which they are not qualified.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I have been treated for eyes probelms with state of the art computing equipment handled by older doctors and nurses.
Your sterotyping is grotesque and revelas only your very particular anecdotal experience.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
... no wonder the trains do not work.
Do you and your bosses know that the monstruosity called WIndows Nt is no longer supported by MS?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Our Citrix installation is used to push all of our applications. In case you are unfamiliar with Citrix, there is ONE installation of our software from which over 400 users simultaneously can use with ZERO downtime due to clustering and abstraction.
The only thing we have found that came close was from IBM and the hardware alone cost more than $1 million. X11 has the network transparency, but not the abilities we were looking for. We don't push desktops, we push individual apps with integrated license management. Something that is WAY beyond X11's capabilities. Not that someone couldn't do it.
[RIAA] says its concern is artists. That's true, in just the sense that a cattle rancher is concerned about its cattle.
iMacs would be a better system for use in health
1) UNIX based platform, connect to everything
2) More user friendly then Linux by a long shot
3) Better stability, far less security problems
4) The iMacs match the white hospital walls
5) Profile of an iMac is rather small, fits on peoples desks better
6) High quality screen
...that was my point
...but it's hard to keep from foaming at the mouth when I hear MS and "Trusted Computing" (or when I hear TC alone), DRM, or Longhorn in the same sentence.
Futurama references not obligatory, should be forbidden. What a lame show.