Free, Open Source OS For TI Calculators

nicklaszlo writes "TICalc.org announced yesterday that Patrick Pelisier has released a new beta OS, called PedroM, for the TI-89 and TI-92+ under the General Public License. Here is the source and binary. This is the first time a TI calculator has been free of proprietary software. The OS has 32 commands and backward compatibility for assembly programs. You can get a Windows/PC emulator of both calculators, for those who don't have either calculator, or don't want to risk their real system."

Comments

Cool..

[Anonymous Coward]

but can you still calculate stuff with it?

Re:Cool..

[Ignominious Cow Herd]

I don't know about calculate, but apparently the site is being run on a Beowulf cluster of 2000 of the little suckers.

Re:Cool..

[Worminater]

Actually they have yet to make math practical on it. Still sweet though:)

just not on my calc till im done with calculas

Nifty

[General Sherman]

I'll probably get modded down for this, but honestly, what's the point?

Sure the OS on TI calculators is proprietary, but it does what it does quite well and I've never had issues with it.

I think making OSS just for the sake of having OSS is stupid. Do something useful with your time. If you have such a great understanding, contribute packages to Linux or something.

Re:Nifty

[itsari]

An open source alternative can help keep the heat on TI to make a better product. Also, in the future, this OSS can even become a better alternative than the TI software. It also gives an oportunity for developers to enhance the O/S they use when the please.

Re:Nifty

[LocoSpitz]

The pressure won't be there until the OSS alternative actually is better than the TI software.

Re:Nifty

[toasted_calamari]

(disclaimer: I don't have a TI-89, and I haven't messed with the emulator)

It looks like a cool interface, but I have a few questions

1) the screenshot I saw made looked like some kind of pseudo unix shell. This is all fine and good with a normal computer, but with a graphing calc, where you have no QWERTY keyboard, a GUI is much faster. Is one available for this OS, or do we have do do everything pecking keys in alpha mode?

2) having games on a graphing calculator is cool for when boredom strikes, but the main reason for investing in a graphing calculator, particularly a high-end one like the TI-89 is its ability to do advanced math functions. are these still available, or will they have to be developed third party? TI put a large number of very complicated math functions into their OS, and the usefulness of this OS would be severely limited if these functions were not available or had to be re-implemented.

At any rate, this looks like an interesting project, and they seem to have made some good progress.

Re:Nifty

[xpl_the_myst]

Could someone please mod parent up?

Seems like any one can get a good /. rating these days by saying "what's the point?" .. wonder what it would have done when people were first starting to write Linux. What's the point. no one uses those weird computer things anyway?

Though, I'd admit, all this does sound a bit over the board when applied to TI calcs .... that doesn't mean you've to criticise the guy who's done it and opened up the source for anyone interested.

Re:Nifty

[jx100]

the 89 may not have one, but the 92/92+/voyage 200 models all have plain, QWERTY keyboards.

Re:Nifty

[Neophytus]

by the looks of it (on the emulator), the TI92+ has a keyboard

Re:Nifty

[theefer]

What's the point of OSS ? Making better software ?
No.

Having a free OS can ensure that you have full access to the system, and that you know how to interface your program with it, or maybe improve it somehow.

Even if it is (were, actually, since I have not tested it yet) not as featureful as the original proprietary OS, it does not mean it is completely inferior. Have you ever worked on a TI-92+ ? I have. It sucks.

The pseudo-shell is really more pseudo than shell, the programming language is a joke, etc. Sure, it works. Sure, there are cool (proprietary) apps with it. But it does not mean it cannot be improved (possibly keeping the compatibility to still access those cool closed apps). Examples of improvements would be a better shell (the screenshots seem to show one), a more powerful filesystem (allow directories into directories, w00t), completion (available through a wrapper, but it's not that good), etc.

There is room for improvement. So them'em play with the system and release it Freely, it can only get better !

Re:Nifty

[toasted_calamari]

Good point, I had forgotten about that, but my point still stands Re the 89, which IMHO is far more common than the 92 etc.

Re:Nifty

[windows]

TI places a lot of restrictions on what assembly language programs can do. TI encourages programmers to make large software packages into Flash applications. Unfortunately, these applications must be digitally signed by TI. While a program to sign applications has been released as freeware for the TI-83+ calculators, no such signing program has been released for the TI-89/TI-92+/V200. A lot of developers simply don't have the money to buy signings from TI. It's $100 for three signings or $300 for ten signings. A lot of us developers release our software for free and don't want to spend this kind of money just to release our applications for free. Sure, we could charge for them, but most of us don't want to because we'd like free software to continue to dominate the TI community. Anyways, this sort of thing bypasses TI's restrictions on what assembly programs can do.

Re:Nifty

[windows]

With a lot of the new releases of the AMS (TI's operating system), TI has added new restrictions to what developers can do. For example, in AMS 2.03, assembly language programs are limited to 8k. In more recent versions, the limitation is 24k. There is no legitimate reason for this except trying to force developers to write Flash applications. This is significant because you have to pay TI to sign any applications you write if you expect them to run on any calculator. There are many other things that Flash applications can do that assembly language programs can't. These include support for language localization and adding commands to TI-BASIC. Another thing is assembly language programs cannot return values like ordinary functions can.

While many of these restrictions have been fixed through nasty hacks found by developers, some of them cannot be easily fixed if at all.

What's so bad about Flash applications? Because you have to pay TI to sign apps for the TI-89/TI-92+/V200. Most of us developers release our software for free. We don't have the money to pay TI to sign our software.

As of now, these are the biggest advantages of the new OS, besides the fact that you have much more archive memory.

Already, this new OS can make a game programmer's job a lot easier.

Re:Nifty

[ari_j]

How about a Lisp (well, subset thereof, of course) machine implemented on a calculator? A Lisp interpreter could feasibly be much faster and more powerful than TI-BASIC, without making basic calculations any harder than on a HP48. :)

Re:Nifty

[Black Acid]

The 89 doesn't have a qwerty keyboard, but someone wrote an interesting program for the 83: QWERTY. With the QWERTY Text Editor, you can flip your calculator on its side and type as if it were a normal computer keyboard. Perhaps the author of PedroM should adapt this functionality.

Re:Nifty

[windows]

Yeah, it will, but there's already pressure on TI to improve their calculators. This came in the form of HP re-entering the graphing calculator market with several new calculators of their own including one which is far more powerful than any other calculator today. This isn't a concern for TI to make a better product, just because they don't charge for upgrades to the AMS (and aren't necessarily losing money if you switch away), because TI still produces the hardware, and because if you want the powerful math features of the TI-89 you still need to use the official AMS.

Re:Nifty

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the stupidiest remark I've read for a long time. Don't you understand the *HOBBY* part in the "Hobby OS" ?

It's like telling a young kid or a beginner painter doing some drawing "You're stupid and lose your time. If you're not going to do something as good as Picasso, then quit and do something useful !".

Idiot. If you're not interested by the news, just ignore it instead of pulling down someone having fun tinkering around.

Re:Nifty

[Sparr0]

When you only have 2 megs of memory to work with, cutting the size of the OS from ~800K to ~200K gives you a lot more room for gam^H^H^H^H other software.

Re:Nifty

[Wateshay]

Why? What does TI care? They don't make a cent off of their software by itself. All of their money is made off of the hardware, and if there's OSS that's better than their offering, it just means they may sell more calculators.

Re:Nifty

[MoralHazard]

Why the fuck do we always see all of the goddamned "This isn't useful to me," posts when brand-new, alpha-stage OSS projects open up? Dumbass--IF YOU CAN'T SEE A USE FOR THIS PROJECT YET, IT OBVIOUSLY ISN'T MEANT FOR YOU YET!!

What the fuck would you have done with Apache 0.0.1? Or perhaps even a pre-1.0 version of Linux? Nothing, that's what--because you were not a developer on those projects. But there are many, MANY people who did see value in using those early releases, primitive as they were.

Now, do you think, maybe (just maybe!), that there are developers who think that this *might someday*, with a lot more work and development, turn into a really useful project? Maybe not ever exactly as useful as the proprietary OS, but perhaps with different purposes, better at some things and worse at others?

You're a turd or a troll if you say that it's stupid to contribute to a project because YOU can't think of a potential future use for a more highly developed version. Yes, YOU, sir, are The Colloquial Deuce, unless IHBT.

Almost every single fucking OSS project that I use today, including Apache, Linux, Perl, Samba, and many more, started out as one of these "useless" projects. Want a GREAT example of this? Check out Familiar Linux on the iPAQ. A year ago, I would have had no use whatsoever because it wasn't stable or refined enough. Today, I have dozens of uses for the current version, and I contribute packages to it. But some of my co-workers have no use for it still--they might want to try it in another year, when the 1.0 comes out. And you know, there are STILL people who tell me that Linux on the iPAQ is useless, and I'm wasting my time with it, while I'm billing $250 an hour plus $75 for every hour that the iPAQ runs on a client job.

Re:Nifty

[mrseigen]

TI still owns the hell out of every school district I've seen. With hundreds of students students per school buying a new calculator every year, why in the hell would you ever want to waste money improving it?

Re:Nifty

[jrockway]

My friend and I are planning to port a forth interperter to the TI89. Is this of use to anyone except us?

Re:Nifty

[Kymermosst]

Anyways, this sort of thing bypasses TI's restrictions on what assembly programs can do.

So does the TICT exepack system and program starters like Super Start, without losing the "calculator" part of the calculator.

Re:Nifty

[damiam]

if you want the powerful math features of the TI-89 you still need to use the official AMS.

Only until the open-source OS implements support.

Re:Nifty

[__past__]

How about an emulator of the real Lisp machines TI built in better days, the TI Explorers?

Oh wait, there is, albeit in a suboptimal state.

Now, would please somebody write a Free clean-room reimplementation of Symbolics Genera, so that the FLOSS community can catch up with the operating system state of the art of the 80ies?

Re:Nifty

[Pieroxy]

That is exactly why it is good. They have no presure to make any software any better (to run on their hardware, that is) because they have no competition. So an alternative could even destroy the proprietary software and they could decide to go with the OSOS (Open Source Operating System). That would be jst great and would probably ensure that the software would get everything it can out of the hardware.

Look at the Rockbox player. It would never had played videos if it wasn't for OSS.

Regular PDA/cellphones/calculators manufacturers tend to release one, maybe two version of their software, because maybe they don't think it is worth it to get to an extra-optimize software. OSS is made of nerds for which it is a top priority. The combination of both could be lethal for any competitor.

Imagine an OS getting 99% of its hardware....

Re:Nifty

[charlesparks]

Sure, School Districts have been using TI for years. I've owned two TI calculators (86 and 83+) because it was what the school always recommended. The average joe high school student isn't going to buy the more expensive 89 or HP 49g+ because the 83+ is good enough for high school math.

But when it comes to College and math in the field it is necessary to put encourage companies to progress to a better product. This is what this Open Source application has the potential to do and this is also what HP's comeback in the calculator industry will do.

This should create something of a trickle down effect to the school districts. Suddenly students are using this OS or the HP because this would be the product or brand used in the industry.

Re:Nifty

[LocoSpitz]

Yeah, there are people who think that this might be useful and worthwhile. But not everyone does. Why, as you suggest, should people who don't think this is a worthwhile project not say anything about it? There's no need to uncritically praise anything put up on the front page. Just because you see worth in a project, doesn't mean everyone else does or should.

Re:Nifty

[DesertFalcon]

Well, I would think that the point is to have fun with a piece of hardware that you've got leftover from high school and haven't touched since then.

I don't know, maybe that's just me though.

But yeah, from the point of view of "What has this added to the sum total of practical tools the human race has at their disposal?" the answer is probably "Not much."

But it can still be fun.

Re:Nifty

[twiddlingbits]

There are simply a LOT more High School students than college students, and you can usually use that same calculator the first year of college then you may need to upgrade. High school students can't justify upgrading, but college students can. The upgrade market is much smaller and more specialized and that's where HP has been more competitive. Now if someone would invent an OS for the HP's that got rid of that damn RPN that would be a worthwhile thing (it may exist, I don't want to go goggling right now). Both are good products, so the decision to buy depends on price and marketing. TI pushes hard in the schools, HP doesn't. TI's efforts have paid off, giving more Sales which can drive down the margin on each unit which means they can offer a better price which means more Sales....

Re:Nifty

[PhotoGuy]

An odd thing about that HP-49G that you link to. It has enough features, that you actually have to *pay* for an *extra* manual if you want to get the documentation on all of it features.

This calculator was expensive enough, I was very unhappy to learn that the manual that came with it didn't discuss all of its features, and that I had to pay extra to get all the documentation.

Re:Nifty

[SuperMo0]

Another problem that I've seen in my school district is that ALL of the books now are "TI-83 enhanced" or some such thing like that, where many of the lessons involve learning how to do things specifically on the TI-83/+. It makes the calculators a staple around the school, but it would make conversion to a different calculator a bitch. It would probably be at least $1 million spent total, from all the students buying new calculators, the school system buying new class sets of calculators, and the school system getting books that didn't give you instructions on how to make the graphs on the TI-83.

Basically, TI has the market on high school cornered, and there's not much I see HP being able to do about it.

Re:Nifty

[danimrich]

I think there is little point in using anything more advanced than, say, a TI 30x in maths class. TI-89's are nifty because they can plot functions and solve some integrals, but if you want to really understand maths you should learn to do this by hand.

And yes, I used a TI-89 in school.

Re:Nifty

[Kokeshi Harinezumi]

Apparently not?

Re:Nifty

[Kokeshi Harinezumi]

This poster may be a slight bit intense, but I think he has a valid point.
It's very much a fact that the majority of open source software begins as "useless", due to its inherent pre-release tendency.
Therefore, it may be slightly premature to label it as "useless" in its relative infancy.

Harinezumi

Re:Nifty

[mokomull]

Ehm... I had to pay for an *extra* manual documenting the more advanced features of my TI-89 (e.g. programming), too! The manual that came with the HP49g+ (yes, I have one) had much more advanced topics in it than the 89 I got a year ago (don't ask why I upgraded).

Also, I might add, that the HP49g+ is CHEAPER than the TI-89.

-MrM

Re:Nifty

[mokomull]

I bought my HP49g+ because of the HP's better software too; I really like the interface better than the TI (I used an emulator, Emu48, before I bought it). I have a TI-89, a TI-83+, and an HP49g+.

-MrM

Re:Nifty

[connorbd]

The 83 is just about perfect for a high schooler -- the price is just about right, and it's the standard (Mead even makes a Five Star-series calculator case for them). That said, I could see HP shooting a little lower to get that market, though only if they offer some level of compatibility with the TI-83.

If you notice, the 83 is so popular that TI doesn't quite support the 86 anymore -- the current USB Graphlink cable only supports the 86 on a Mac.

Re:Nifty

[mokomull]

Holy shit! I've had my TI-89 for a year and still can't type more than 5-10WPM! (I did buy the external keyboard, though)

-MrM

Re:Nifty

[SuperMo0]

They ALSO don't sell the plain old TI-83 anymore. You're forced to only get the +, which, while it has more features, memory, and such, also costs quite a bit more.

Re:Nifty

[Lehk228]

actually it still won't pressure TI because you get the OS with the calculator and their *hardware* is what makes them so popular

Re:Nifty

[dahjelle]

I used my '89 all the time to help me understand the math - I was able to keep myself from getting too stuck by having an answer available (like the back of the book) and was often able to check all steps of my work - which helps a lot!

Re:Nifty

[John Courtland]

I think it's great how HP (in a subtle way) claims ownership of RPN.

Quote from the site:

HP's Reverse Polish Notation (RPN)

There isn't much you can do to RPN to make it different to the point of claiming ownership of a verion of it.

Re:Nifty

[aardvarkjoe]

What's the point of OSS ? Making better software ? No.

Slow down there. You don't speak for everyone who uses and develops open source software, and as such you can't make the blanket statement of the "point of OSS." I do both, and I most certainly do so because I believe open source makes for better software. In the cases where it doesn't -- for instance, in my opinion, Opera for web browsing -- then I'm perfectly happy to use a closed source alternative

Re:Nifty

[Doppler00]

$150 for a calculator? I wish they would port something like Mathcad or Mathematica to Pocket PC. I'm sick of seeing these ugly low resolution screens on calculators with slow CPU's, limited memory, etc. It's time to move beyond 1990's technology for calculators.

Re:Nifty

[localghost]

RPN is a feature unique to HP calculators, though. I've never come across another calculator that used it. There's a third party program for the TI-89/92 that implements it, but it doesn't integrate as seamlessly as it does in HP's calculators. Once you get used to RPN, it's a lot more efficient than algebraic.

Re:Nifty

[zangdesign]

OK, I don't own a TI calculator (got a superslim Casio back in 85) and I don't ever plan on owning one, so forgive my ignorance, please.

FLASH? Are we talking Macromedia Flash applications on a calculator? Or is this something else entirely different?

Re:Nifty

[jokrswild]

No, a FLASH application is an application that is directly stored in the flash rom part of the TI's memory. You have to use the SDK, if i recall, to make these applications. As stated before, they have to be "signed" by TI in order to install them on a calculator.

Re:Nifty

[Anonymous Coward]

>>> I'll probably get modded down for this, but honestly, what's the point?

What's the point? The point is this os takes much less RAM than original. Why does one need that much RAM? Well, I use my TI-89 calculator for cheating on exams. I ported PNG reader so I can run it on my TI. I can store ~50 b&w pictures (up to 64k pixels - 800*800 each). Now I'll be able to store almost 150 pictures! That means I won't have to select only important pages, but everything!!!!
I can't wait for my next exam!!!! :-D

Re:Nifty

[Wateshay]

The software is a selling point across different calculator brands, but if you've already bought TI's calculator, they have no motivation to care what software you use. I'm sure they'd be delighted to see an open source solution for their calculator that was better than their proprietary option, and (as another respondant to this thread already pointed out), they might even start using it instead.

Re:Nifty

[jandrese]

I don't know. The OS in my (quite old and non-upgradable) TI-85 is actually buggy. Specifically, they screwed the Fahrenheit to Celcius (and vice versa) conversion, it does handle negative temperatures correctly. Fortunatly it only takes a few lines of basic to implement correctly, but the interface is not as nice. I wish I could upgrade the OS, but it's burned in ROM and I'm not about to start pulling chips off of the thing to fix one minor bug.

Re:Nifty

[ari_j]

The thing is essentially that you can get a better RPL calculator without writing any code, for the same price minus time. It's the HP48. However, I do not know of any hand-held Lisp machines.

Re:Nifty

[ari_j]

How thorough are you being? Will your code be open? I'd really be interested in seeing this done in Z80, especially if it's compiled and if you have a compiler that runs alongside it on the TI (although an interpreter would be handier for quick calculations), and even more especially if you do any optimizations I don't know how to do. :)

Re:Nifty

[TheRaven64]

But when it comes to College and math in the field it is necessary to put encourage companies to progress to a better product.

I had a TI86 at school, and it was a nice machine. When I went to university, I found it couldn't really cope so I upgraded to a pen and piece of paper.

Re:Nifty

[GoldMace]

Funny, I didn't even really understand integrals until I got my TI-89. I got to play around with them, try with lots of different examples, and after several hours of doing that, I finally caught on. I don't think I ever would have learned to do them by hand if I hadn't bought it.

Re:Nifty

[jandrese]

Of course I ment to say it _doesn't_ handle negative (below 0C) conversions correctly.

Re:Nifty

[rnash]

$150 for a calculator? I wish they would port something like Mathcad or Mathematica to Pocket PC. I'm sick of seeing these ugly low resolution screens on calculators with slow CPU's, limited memory, etc. It's time to move beyond 1990's technology for calculators

I thought it wasn't expensive enough so I I now use an HP48s/g(x) emulator on my Zire 71 ;-)

Re:Nifty

[windows]

Actually the reason for it is AMS 2.0x forbids the use of assembly language programs in expressions. It is quite useless for an assembly language program to attempt to return a value.

There are hacks which intercept this behavior of the AMS and allow assembly language programs to be in expressions and therefore return values. This is a stupid behavior of the AMS imposed by TI. AMS 1.0x imposed no such restrictions on the usage and behavior of assembly language programs.

So, my statement was quite correct.

Here is some documentation to support what I say here.

Re:Nifty

[windows]

There is a freeware tool for signing applications that will run on the TI-83+. Unfortunately, no such tool exists to sign apps that will run on the TI-89/92+/V200. I believe the pricing scheme of $100 for three signings or $300 for ten signings on the TI-89/92+/V200 is still in effect.

Re:Nifty

[ari_j]

Well, let's see some code! :)

Re:Nifty

[Tukla]

so I upgraded to a pen and piece of paper

Do you have a link to info on these?

Re:Nifty

[rkz]

there was a calculator called the "Mathematician" that was the first one to use RPN.

What does this really mean?

[spin2cool]

It means that math class will never be the same.

We'll have progressed from playing single player tetris through Zshell to playing multiplayer doom over a WiFi nwetwork. (in the back of Algebra class, of course).

Re:What does this really mean?

[timiscool999]

The question is thought...

Does it run Linux? :)

'Cause when it does, I think the geeks' math grades will drop maintaining their calculators for maximum stability and uptime, coding, and playing Frozen Bubble, rather than normally doing their math homework.

I've been trying to think whether geeks will get the crap kicked out of them more because of this or less...

Re:What does this really mean?

[nicolas.e]

The ti89 will probably never run linux, or any non-embed OS. The 2mb (or so) flash are a bit short to run linux (or netbsd, which is more portable), but you could at least get the bootup messages.

However, the ti89, which has a m68k, lacks an MMU, so it will be probably very difficult to run a proper OS (IMHO would some sort of virtualizer too complicated).

On the other hand, I feel the guy's idea to write a new OS quite nice. It would be also nice to port some open source CAS to the calc, and, for example, make it use RPN.

I would love to trade my 48GX (whose software I like best) with an ti89 (whose hardware rules) (49g+ is nice, but the screen is still inferior).

Re:What does this really mean?

[DMUTPeregrine]

Yes. Try the game shootout or arena3D, and use the radiolink. Not wifi, but it's still close enough.

Re:What does this really mean?

[ameoba]

WTF are you doing with a TI-89/92 in Algebra class?

Re:What does this really mean?

[Otter]

Actually, I'm just bored and wanted something to do...

Fine, but could you at least remove his troll name from the subject? He gets his k-r4d 1337 troll points every time you repeat it.

Re:What does this really mean?

[zCyl]

WTF are you doing with a TI-89/92 in Algebra class?

Maybe they ran out of slide rules?

Re:What does this really mean?

[NeoSkandranon]

Means you went ahead and bought one now instead of getting an -86 and having to get ANOTHER hundred dollar calculator when you get to the properly advanced stuff. I got a TI-89 in preparation for Pre-calc in highschool, and loved it. Its menu system being what it is, I could do most anything faster than the other students, once I learned how.

Re:What does this really mean?

[egreB]

Well, there's ucLinux, a project designed for microcontrollers without a MMU. With tools, it adds up to about 900KB. Somebody with way too much time on their hands (i.e. maths students) could probably port it to the TI-89, though I have no idea what hardware it has. Now, what would've been cool, is porting it to Casio calculators. In Norway, Casio rules for some reason, and I have to use my 1.5MB FX 1.0 for something! (-: Does anybody know anything about custom OS for Casio calculators?

Re:What does this really mean?

[__past__]

Does it run Linux? :)

I for one welcome our new Beowulf-cluster-of-pocket-calculators-imagining overlords.

Re:What does this really mean?

[Josh Booth]

... and is really sweet with an RPN shell on it.

Re:What does this really mean?

[placeclicker]

Um, if his idea came true, playing games.

Now for the next port...

[anothy]

...when can i expect it for my TI 99/4A?

Re:Now for the next port...

[DarkOx]

What, that was the best OS ever on any hardware platform I mean was an OS an Basic interpreter, an OS with a basic interpeter an OS that was a basic interpeter. It was amazing and actually the most useful thing the could have done at the time. BASIC actually made a good shell. I would be happy to see BASIC become the shell again on a modern system,.

Real use of calculator...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the true "caclulating" functions of the calculator have been lost to the geek crowd. I, for one, bought my 89 solely to do integrals for calculus. There is no way that I tricked my mom into buying it for me so I could play first person shooters, sweet greyscale games, run non-proprietary OS's, and make some awesome assembly progs. No way at all. Come on guys, really. Do some math...

Re:Real use of calculator...

[pongo000]

In the same vein, if one really wants to make their 89/92+ useful, I recommend this small utility. I bet PedroM can't touch it.

Re:Real use of calculator...

[nicolas.e]

This one is much better : rpn

It allows to access the menu with the F-keys, like on hp calcs. It's very nice.

Re:Real use of calculator...

[windows]

While a lot of effort is put into producing games, you can bet that if PedroM becomes popular among users that someone will take the time to write some math software for it, too. A lot of work has been done to extend the math functionality on the TI-83+ calculators, such as this application that can do symbolic differentiation and simplification on a calc that doesn't otherwise have this functionality. Just because there's not math software available for PedroM doesn't mean there won't be later. Give it time, this OS has only been released very recently.

Re:Real use of calculator...

[anethema]

I've always been curious. What is the apeal of RPN? It seems like such an ass-backwards way of calculating something. Why wouldnt you use the way of how you think of it in your head? "Two plus two". Im not flaming or trolling, I'm genuinly curious what writing your math out in a weird order gets you as far as productivity?

Any answer would be great.

Re:Real use of calculator...

[loose electron]

After you use an RPN calculator for a while it becomes second nature. Very simple to use and very fast to use. No thought required.

The argument for the uninitiated is that it does use fewer keystrokes. Back in the 70's the calculator war was between HP and TI. The engineers largely went to RPN calculators.

HP no longer produces the wide range of RPN calculators that they used to, and consequently if you are looking for a simple RPN calculator, you end up buying them on Ebay at 200-500 dollars a pop.

Re:Real use of calculator...

[Captain Segfault]

HP no longer produces the wide range of RPN calculators that they used to, and consequently if you are looking for a simple RPN calculator, you end up buying them on Ebay at 200-500 dollars a pop.

I got an HP-48G on ebay in september for something like $60-70, complete with documentation. I'm sure that it would fill the requirements of a 'simple RPN calculator' in a pinch.

Re:Real use of calculator...

[Josh Booth]

I love RPN and the reasons are sheer consistancy and no ambiguity. For infix algebraic calculators (and equations), you need parenthesis or your equation will mean something totally different from what you intend. However, with postfix "Reverse Polish Notation", there is absolutely no ambiguity. It is also more consistant in that EVERY operator comes after the arguments, not before or in between them.

Why wouldnt you use the way of how you think of it in your head?

I'm sure some there are some U:bergeeks whose brains are hardwired for RPN, but probably not many. Probably one of the biggest reasons why I like RPN is because I hate parenthesis. I'll let the calculator do them for me. I wouldn't want to write down RPN equations because it doesn't seem to me to be totally obvious where the arguments are, but it is great for punching in equations.

For example: b +- b 2 ^ 4 a * c * -- .5 ^ + 2 a * / is the same as (-b +- (b^2 -- 4ac)^.5) / (2a) [Quadratic formula]

It is totally disambiguous but confusing to read. But then again I wasn't brought up reading RPN.

Re:Real use of calculator...

[loose electron]

The 48G is a full blown graphing machine. I mean something simple like an HP32, HP42, HP11, HP15, HP16 -it is a matter of taste, when I need graphing and fancy stuff I go to something like MATLAB - but if the 48G works for you, fine with me. regards -

All flash calcs have this ability

[Cubeman]

I'd like to point out that this OS works by use of the TIB receiver, which allows an OS not signed by TI to be loaded on the calculator. This works for the TI-89, TI-92 Plus, and the Voyage 200.

The other TI calculators with flash memory are the TI-73 and the TI-83 Plus. Personally, I've released the source for a rudimentary proof-of-concept OS (warning: knowledge of how to compile and send it required) for those just to demonstrate that a similar method exists. In fact, on the 83+ one can write to the flash memory with an assembly language program as well.

To those who ask what the point is, it's exciting. Writing your own operating system is quite possibly the hardest thing that a programmer can do. On the computer, it's unmanageable because of complexity, but you can still balance complexity with functionality on a graphing calculator. The TI-83 Plus uses a Z80 chip, and the 89/92+/Voyage 200 a 68000k, so assembly isn't too bad. Most 89/92+/Voyage 200 programs are written in C though.

Re:All flash calcs have this ability

[Catcher80]

Well put, Michael :) If you just accept what is there as the way things should be, we wouldn't have a lot of things.

When I first got into the calculators, I wanted to learn so much, but I never really had the time or smarts :P I did end up learning a bunch about the calculators though, and I still have people that have seen me on tinews and in #tcpa asking me for advice. The Calculator programming isn't about having a point, it's about having fun, which is the point!

Whoever that anonymous coward is that posted the 'fuck you' to MV, well heh.. Come into #tcpa and you'll get unbanned, k?

-Catcher

Re:All flash calcs have this ability

[kurosawdust]

Writing your own operating system is quite possibly the hardest thing that a programmer can do. On the computer, it's unmanageable because of complexity...

You'd better tell this guy. My advice? Let him down gently.

Great

[evn]

I don't use my Ti-92+ in school as a calculator any more anyway (not many calculus teachers want you using any electronic devices at all) so this gives me something to do with it. 2mb rom, m68k 10mhz processor, link port: If we could get a graphical tool kit and a C toolchain it might be possible to make something roughly as capable as one of the original Mac or Lisa. Not powerful, but useful for note taking, tetris, and doing some simple calculations on the side - and has even more geek-factor than taking notes on a palm pilot + fold out keyboard or pocketpc running linux.

Re:Great

[ari_j]

I've toyed with writing enough Z80 assembly to get a working TCP stack, with the goal of connecting to IRC with an even more arcane device than netcat. SLIP is easy but you'd probably want to hardwire the IP addresses (PPP is really overkill unless you wrote a crippled IP-only version of it), IP isn't too hard although checksumming would be slow on the Z80, UDP and ICMP are elementary after that, and TCP isn't too tough. The hardest part is making all this available for other programs to use without static linking it into every program you write. Then add an XML parser and you can do Jabber on your calculator. :)

Re:Great

[fireboy1919]

Um...there's already a C toolchain for it. There was before this (for almost as long as there has been TI92, which was out before 89 and uses the same processor) because there's one for M68K. All they had to do was add a few macros that added stuff so that it was up to par with the file specification for TI89/92.

Now, what I want...

[Matrix Revultions.]

...is a free OS for my HP48.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Not much use

[jqcaducifer]

The only benefits I can see here is more memory for games. On the other hand, it kills all math functionality, which kinda defeats the purpose of the calculator. A person who got this calculator to play games missed the point. Besides the simple idea of loading a new non-TI OS onto the calc, there doesn't seem to be a reason for this OS. On the other hand, once they improve this to include math and such, that would be nice.

backward compatibility for assembly programs?

[windows]

As someone who works at one of the large community sites about TI calculators, I'm in a position to comment on this.

The OS attempts to be compatible in a lot of ways with the AMS (TI's OS for the 68k calcs) but it really isn't. A lot of the OS such as the math functionality is missing. A lot of assembly programs also rely on hacks to take advantage of the internals of the AMS. These won't work, also.

Another thing is that the majority of assembly programs now are written for AMS 2.0x, but this software only allows for assembly programs written for the old AMS 1.0x. It's somewhat compatible, but is lacking in a lot of ways, too.

The reasons that the compatibility is lacking are that we still haven't documented a lot of functions in the AMS and some features have intentionally been left out for the sake of using less Flash ROM and leaving more of it for the archives. In other places, some speed has been sacrificed for making the OS a lot smaller than the AMS.

It's an interesting project, but at this point, it's more of a proof-of-concept thing than a real replacement for the AMS software. The future of this project, hopefully, will include most of the functionality of the TI-89, including math, but will provide significant advantages over the AMS. For example, the AMS makes a lot of restrictions on the size of assembly language programs and what they can do. These restrictions are gone in PedroM. Also, as I understand, this OS is written in assembly instead of compiled from C like the AMS is. Hopefully this means we can implement the same functionality of the AMS but that runs faster and at a smaller size.

Good luck to PpHd. It's a good start. :)

Re:What does this really mean? tsarkon

[Drantin]

Such a troll.... Anyways:
1. the zshell he was referring to was not the linux shell, but rather a hack for the TI-85 allowing it to run ASM programs... the first big release of such a thing on TI calculators...
2. WTH did any of that have to do with gentoo?
3. troll... no comment...
4. There is already a project porting Wolf3D to the calculator using TICT's FAT engine

Yay

[titurel]

Sounds like something fun to try during the christmas break. Ofcourse it would be even more fun to try now in the middle of exam week :-)

Great...

[brian728s]

Now I can spend even more time not learning math while my parents bitch about my grades.

Re:MOD PARENT FUNNY!

[brian728s]

Stop generalizing posts with 'insensitive clod' in it, you insensitive clod!

Karma whore

[Anonymous Coward]

In case it gets Slashdotted, here's a copy of the article:

Free, Open Source OS For TI Calculators
Operating Systems
Posted by timothy on Sunday December 14, @04:53PM
from the smallness dept.

nicklaszlo writes "TICalc.org announced yesterday that Patrick Pelisier has released a new beta OS, called PedroM, for the TI-89 and TI-92+ under the General Public License. Here is the source and binary. This is the first time a TI calculator has been free of proprietary software. The OS has 32 commands and backward compatibility for assembly programs. You can get a Windows/PC emulator of both calculators, for those who don't have either calculator, or don't want to risk their real system."

I'm looking for a new OS ...

[BrentRJones]

...for my slide rule.

This could be how an ingenious person starts

[Anonymous Coward]

I am deeply disappointed in your attitude.

As a 15-18 year-old, coding asm applications (this was before anyone had put together adequate C compilers for these calculator platforms) for my TI calculators was what introduced me to programming, gave me a creative outlet, and drove me to pursue and complete a CS degree.

My high school didn't offer any CS or programming classes, and I didn't have any friends - much less any friends who would take the time from drinking and partying to learn to code z80 and m68k assembler. My interests in coding were how I defined and measured myself as a worthwhile human being, despite what anyone else thought about me.

If someone like you would have come down all high and mighty and mocked my creative outlet, trivialized my many long hours working on what absolutely fascinated me, and told me I was wasting my time, I might not be where I am today. And judging by your tone, you could only dream of being in my shoes today.

You know, I have a more interesting question:

What have YOU done? What gives you the RIGHT to come in here and mock this young man's work?

Get a life, really.

Re:This could be how an ingenious person starts

[dont_think_twice]

As a 15-18 year-old

Does that make you minus 3 years old?

Re:This could be how an ingenious person starts

[fireboy1919]

While I agree that this might be a good learning step, and a good thing to do with one's life (in fact, this is how I started out my career as a Computer Scientist), your argument is a logical fallacy known as "tu quoque," one of the many red herring fallacies.

You have not shown that the previous poster has not right to criticize. I would postulate that, this being a free web forum, he does have this right, barring any good argument against it.

Re:This could be how an ingenious person starts

[Kokeshi Harinezumi]

If I may, out of curiosity, ask: From which language is "tu quoque" from? I've determined by Babelfish, if it is reliable, that it is, at least, not French. Harinezumi

Re:This could be how an ingenious person starts

[aardvarkjoe]

After five seconds of googling: "Latin tu quoque, you also".

For anything of this nature, Latin should always be your first guess.

Re:This could be how an ingenious person starts

[sjames]

These calculators are a great way to get into programming. There's a lot to be learned in a small system where the OS can be shoved out of the way.

An entire generation of programmers got their start on 6502, Z80, and similar CPUs with 64KB or so of RAM. I think programming for a machine too small to even run Visual whizzbang version 109.32 teaches a valuable skillset.

Re:This could be how an ingenious person starts

[Zorak Man]

I agree, I think that if some one want's to do something they should. I code really pointless things in the name of learning new stuff. I would never put down some one for working hard on a project. However I will debate about the practial applications of such projects, it is no way insulting the person for prusuing ASM coding or the such, hell I am a major geek.

Re:This could be how an ingenious person starts

[freakmn]

If someone like you would have come down all high and mighty and mocked my creative outlet, trivialized my many long hours working on what absolutely fascinated me, and told me I was wasting my time, I might not be where I am today. And judging by your tone, you could only dream of being in my shoes today.

Seeing as you posted as an AC, I have a question for you: Where are you today?

I picked up one of these a while back...

[mark-t]

And I can honestly say that the single "feature" that is missing that I would most strongly desire is the ability to plug in more RAM into the sucker.

I want to run java apps on a pocket calculator, not just be restricted to their idiotic perception of "BASIC".

And no... I don't want a PDA... they are too fragile.

Re:I picked up one of these a while back...

[Kymermosst]

And I can honestly say that the single "feature" that is missing that I would most strongly desire is the ability to plug in more RAM into the sucker.

I want to run java apps on a pocket calculator, not just be restricted to their idiotic perception of "BASIC".

Yeah, it needs more memory, but you can still run the Waba Virtual Machine (which can run some java applets).

Of course, gcc cross-compiling to the TI-89/92 has been happening for a long time.

Re:What does this really mean? tsarkon

[Drantin]

1. It doesn't matter whether there is one for the 68K calcs or not, he was reminiscing... And actually, I've known about Pedrom since way before this release...
2. Why do you keep mentioning gentoo? The article had nothing to do with it, nor did the original post... In fact, you are most zealous anti-gentoo person I've met...
3. WiFI is used because it's quicker to say than 802.11(b,g, whatever...)
4. Yes, there is. If you, troll that you are, would care to check up on things first, you would know that... It's not a port of the code, It's a ray-casting engine that is using grayscaled pictures from the original game, and it actually doesn't look half bad..

Emulator

[eap]

They are also working on a TI Calculator emulator for the new O/S. It will allow you to emulate a TI calculator right on your own calculator!

Re:Nifty tsarkon reports

[YOU LIKEWISE FAIL IT]

That same kind of heat that Linux put on apple and microsoft that is going to be its own undoing. You show up the big boys and they place the bar beyond your reach.

It might be bad for Open Source, but its definitely good for the consumer. I'm all for Apple and Microsoft raising the bar - I use their products every day. If that means I have to hack together the occasional bit of 'user experience' on Linux or whatever, sounds like an excellent deal.

Your argument basically says, "Don't be good at anything, or the big guys will turn around and be even better." I think that sounds like a very desirable state of affairs instead of just persisting in mediocrity.

YLFI

Re:What does this really mean? tsarkon

[ameoba]

You're obviously new around here and no more than 15 years old. Really, when an AC starts talking shit like , it's not personal, you can drop it.

Asshat.

YHBT, HAND, STFU.

Re:What does this really mean? tsarkon

[Drantin]

Actually, I'm just bored and wanted something to do...

I want my...

[blair1q]

I want my HP-15C.

What calculator?

[fdawg]

"Can I borrow your calculator?"
"Oh, its not a calculator. Its now a portable computer."
"Can it minimize this equation for me?"
"No"
"What can it do?"
"Well....it has a console...and it can add/subtract/multiply....."
"Nevermind."

Re:What calculator?

[mark-t]

"Can it minimize this equation for me?"
"No"

Actually, it *CAN*.

So you can fix it to do RPN?

[KeithH]

TI calculators would be a lot more interesting if they didn't force me to use algebraic entry. A modified OS that let me turn "=" into "enter" would be a big step forward.

In the meantime, I'll stick with my HP-41CX and HP-16C.

Re:So you can fix it to do RPN?

[Durin_Deathless]

There is a hack for this(RPN86, google it) for TI 86's. It is lousy though, only 4 stack levels, and it just feels wrong. I can't be more specific, but the HPs do a better job of Algebraic and RPN on the same unit.

Re:So you can fix it to do RPN?

[vistic]

Someone else posted this elsewhere on this story.

I was reading through the documentation and it's pretty good, too.

RPN for TI-89

Re:So you can fix it to do RPN?

[PingXao]

Since I burned my mod points this morning I'll burn some karma... Amen Brother

There's always been 2 sides to the TI vs. HP debate but IMO real geeks have always used HP calculators. We know they are superior to the TI riff raff. Always have been. (Here is where I was going to write "Always will be", but I don't know if that's necessarily true since HP seems to have largely given up). No one who knows their way around an RPN HP ever lost a competition involving speed, clarity of thought or lapses of logic to a TI nerd. That was the key difference. HP guys were Geeks but the TI boys were only nerds. Parenthesis. Yikes. Might as well program in Visual Basic.

Re:So you can fix it to do RPN?

[Jim Haskell]

Yes. I use this, and it is a godsend. Algebraic entry for equations just sucks, really.

Re:So you can fix it to do RPN?

[Zirnike]

Well, I guess I'll feed the troll today.

Your comment only holds for values of geek != engineers. I knew several people who had HPs who SWITCHED to TIs because of the ease of use for mechanical engineering problems.

Just because you thing a Devorak keyboard is faster doesn't mean that someone doing computational work won't stomp you into the ground using a keypad. Different tools for different problems.

Re:netbsd

[nicolas.e]

Although netbsd has been ported to m68k, it won't work with the ti89 without any virtualizer (quite a pain to code), since the 89 does not have an MMU.

Furthermore, the 2mb are too small to do anything useful, except boot the kernel. (bash alone takes more than 1mb). However, it could be fun to try.

Re:Real use of calculator... x1488

[JeffTL]

Until, that is, you realize that you're spending two minutes of an hour-long exam on a long division you COULD do in five seconds if you hit buttons fast. And that the test is calibrated for calculator users, not to mention the fact that the machine is generally infallible at what it is capable of doing.

Re:i love my 89..

[fdawg]

Lets hope you dont go on to code/design/build medical equipment or bridges. ...i weep for the future.

emulator

[Jacek Poplawski]

You can get a Windows/PC emulator of both calculators,

Hm. Better would be "You can get a Windows/PC emulaator for both calculators ;-)

So, really, what's the point if I can't run emulator on calculator even with free OS?

Bored in math class...

[Raynach]

Finally, an open source version of nibbles. I knew this day would come.

Re:What does this really mean? tsarkon

[tomstdenis]

"for shit they are zealots about"

shit they are zealous about....[like grammor!]

You won't believe this

[bigberk]

But back in grade 10 high school, a close friend of mine actually wrote a GUI Windows-like interface for the TI-83 calculator. It included start-menu style popup menus, Notepad application, etc. Super-crazy.

These TI's have Z80 processors in them, anyone who knows Z80 assember can pull off some pretty amazing shit.

Re:You won't believe this

[Drantin]

Actually, these TIs have motorola 68K processors in them, the sub-89 TIs have the z80.

Re:You won't believe this

[Billly Gates]

I had seen someone write a return to wolfenstein clone. It only had 3 pixels for the gun back in my days of highschool in the early to mid 1990's.

However I think a calculator should be used to uh, run calculations for math class. Its an essential tool that I would not want to f*ck with.

However I also own a palm m100. :-) With free gnu tools and sdk's, let the games begin. Also since I do not have to replace the default os, I can feel comfortable using it for work and school and would not have to sacrifice the included apps.

An OS to goof with should only be done on spare machines or off semister if you have critical things you need to do in school.

Re:You won't believe this

[davidstrauss]

These TI's have Z80 processors in them, anyone who knows Z80 assember can pull off some pretty amazing shit.

As long as by "these" you mean old-fashioned ones. The TI-89, TI-92, and Voyage calculators use the 68K.

Re:What does this really mean? tsarkon reports.

[Drantin]

Heh.. you really enjoy thinking you're making me angry aren't you? And who said I actually use either term for wireless connections? I usually just call them wireless networks... No real need for anything else just to make it sound techier... I don't really see any point to respond anything else you mentioned... Not really any point to responding to this either, but here goes the preview button...

Re:What does this really mean? tsarkon

[kikta]

Well then, it's a good thing you were such a dickhead to him. You're no better than the troll. Grow up.

Spam on my 92

[thedogcow]

While I think the idea is cool as far as an open source theme goes...

I see this as potentially a bad idea, as this might provide a segue into Spam...

So now when I sit in my PDE's class, my calculator will be bugging me about getting my penis size enlarged.

This would be great except one thing...

[Kymermosst]

If you install it, the calculator no longer does math.

Kinda defeats the purpose of having a calculator, no?

Now if someone ported the yacas engine to it, and made it similar to the original interface, that would be something!

I'm not going to put an alternative OS on my calculator that just plays games, when I can have a gameboy advance for $100 and get color too!

Re:This would be great except one thing...

[Kymermosst]

On second though, college doesn't really leave me time to play games.

Re:This would be great except one thing...

[Bobobob314]

just dualboot

Re:netbsd

[Billly Gates]

You do not need unix for a single tasking, low end calculator.

It is possible to code a unix-like OS for it, but why would you need init, inet, and a whole bunch of other bloated stuff for it?

HP calculators are cool because they come with a minimal OS with networking, but have ssh and telnet support apps you can download. That means if you need the power of Unix/Linux, then you can just remote into a more powerfull machine.

If you go to the link mentioned in the story, you noticed the killer feature is the abilitity to run gameboy rom's. :-)

That adds awhole bunch of fun.

Awesome

[djkoolaide]

I hafta get a new TI next year anyway for school, so this will be great!

It makes me wonder

[Pope Raymond Lama]

With those links to a windoze emulator,I wonder if there could be anyone who cares so much about free software that he will want to free his calculator from proprietary crap (it is just fine up to here - I myself would install free software in a calculator if I had one) and would test said software in an emulator under windo~1.

but..

[rf0]

can it run nethack?

Probably yes

Rus

Re:but..

[gl4ss]

nethack is much, much heavier than you would first think.

i guess some rogue clone would be possible, but i doubt you could pull off getting it to run full nethack without dumping majority of the work somewhere else with some interface.

Re:but..

[zztzed]

There actually is a roguelike for the TI-89/92+/V200: CalcRogue.

What defines proprietary

[Anonymous Coward]

A serious question here :

I almost feel like the spanish guy from the Princess Bride. "You use that word so much, I do not think it means what you think it means."

What really defines software as proprietary?

If a software company allows you to view the source does it suddenly become non-proprietary?
Is non-proprietary software these days defined solely by the GNU license?

Calculators - slowest evolving gadgets ever?

[clv101]

I've had my Ti85 for over 7 years now and the latest and greatest Ti calculator (in the same form factor) doesn't seem to have progressed much in the all the time. Next to phones, computers, MP3 players etc... the pocket calculator that started it all off hasn't changed at all! Are PDA's the new calculators? Are the any hardcore graphing calculator applications for PocketPC?

Re:Calculators - slowest evolving gadgets ever?

[stienman]

Teachers and test proxies want the capabilities of calculators to be limited and easy to verify.

-Adam

First PedroM-specific software released!

[lord_nightrose]

Though PedroM has only been available for under a week now (publicly), I've already written the first piece of software designed for it. The program, MLib, is a collection of OS extensions that allow you to do a lot more with PedroM than you can with the OS alone. You can find MLib for the TI-89 at this page, and for the TI-92+ at this page. Enjoy!

Better late than never...

[}InFuZeD{]

TI-News posted news about PedroM almost a week ago. And today ticalc.org posted news about a 3 month old program (Kirby's TI Land 1.0 was released 9/5/2003)... *sigh*

I don't mean to bash Open Source or anything but

[Meowfaceman]

IT'S A FREAKING CALCULATOR. Do you REALLY need an open source operating system for a calculator? Was it's proprietary operating system ever really in question? Why, I remember the days, when I said to myself, "DAMNED BE TEXAS INSTRUMENTS! They'll rue the day! Their calculator hardware only runs their own operating system! It's a monopoly, I say!"

Abilities?

[Ravensky]

Ok...sounds cool. But what exactly can it do? Sure it can calculate stuff, but does it include an organizer system or calendar thing? And what else?

What's the point?

[man_ls]

There really, really isn't one.

There already exist C and C++ Compliers for these calculators; they also read ASM programs.

Why do we need an open source OS that removes the math functions?

Calculators should do math, hold periodic tables and simple text files, and *maybe* some phone numbers.

That's it.

Re:What's the point?

[TheDanish]

Does there need to be a point? Someone made an operating system just for fun, and all you can do is piss on it.

It's interesting. It doesn't have to be suitable for any purpose for that to happen. It's neat to look at. And if you have no use for it, then don't use it.

Better yet, make a post on the Internet about how useless it is. That'll show them.

Some of us LIKE algebraic notation...

[NotQuiteReal]

Different [key]strokes for different folks.

Linux on TIs

[RedHat_Linux_Man]

I have been wondering about open source systems for the TI. I was also thinking one day if it would be possible to run linux on my TI-83+, but alas it only has 512K of memory I think. Maybe Linux would fit on the Voyager 200? Just a thought.

Re:emulators

[Doppleganger]

Yes, you can. The main subject of the article is a ROM that didn't come from a calculator, and is thus legal to use without owning the calculator.

another reason why this is significant

[newsdee]

There have been previous attempts to make an operating system for the HP48 (I can't recall if it was OSS or not). Anyway some of the people involved in the project were approached by HP and were, at least in part, involved in the creation of the HP49 (which for example lost the Minehunt easter egg for a more hidden Tetris clone, pretty neat).

The HP49 was actually a revolution for many, because it delivered everything that the HP48 didn't for years. And HP got the clue from hobbyists.

So a new OS has great potential for the future of the hardware - just give it some time. At least I expect that this will give the same functions faster - which would be great (TI's spreadsheet program is nice but waaay slow).

Re:another reason why this is significant

[nicklaszlo]

The TI comunity has been telling TI what they want for years, and TI has been ignoring them. TI knows it's not the people who use the calculators who decide which calculators get purchased - it's the recomendations of public school teachers that make or break TI.

Re:What does this really mean? tsarkon

[tomstdenis]

shut the fuck up grammar Nazi.

Learn to grammorize your sentances!

You asked about a hard-core graphing calculator

[rock_climbing_guy]

Check this out. Now, flame away, because it is very expensive.

Re:i love my 89..

[1iar_parad0x]

You know, I was helping a friend's younger brother with a math problem. Of course, this always leads to the obligatory "what is math" discussion. I always (perhaps, much to people's dismay) try to emphasize the use of the fundamental laws (communitivity, associativity, etc) when solving problems. I looked to the front of the algebra book to find the obligatory list of the fundamental laws of algebra (or the Fundamental Law of Algebra). They weren't there. I understand there's a backlash against the new math, but what's the deal. How do people learn the art of writing a proof?

Re:can ti do the proof for 11^2+12^2=13^2

[kasperd]

can ti do the proof for 11^2+12^2=13^2

I hope not.

Re:can ti do the proof for 11^2+12^2=13^2

[fi-greenie]

Sure it can!

Unfortunately, you won't be available to see it, because the calculator will print this;

I have discovered a truly remarkable proof which this screen is too small to contain.

Re:Cost

[nicklaszlo]

How about Mathematica?

No Proof for TI

[nicklaszlo]

Claculators can't do proofs - They don't even return very acurate results. Even the most modern computers aren't very good at proof. It will tell you that 11^2+12^2=16.27882060, aproximately. I like the Fermat jokes! I guess the moderators don't get them :-(.

Slashdot's slow, not me.

[nicklaszlo]

I submited this story to slashdot about four days before it was posted.

RPN on TI

[nicklaszlo]

There is now an application for TI-83+ that lets you use Reverse Polish Notation on it. http://www.ticalc.org/archives/files/fileinfo/233/ 23378.html

What's the point of such a feathureless OS?

[fab13n]

mmmhh... I remember of an almost useless OS kernel as well, some 10 years ago in northern Europe. I guess most of you would have called this pointless then, too.

Why Calculate?

[FuzzyDaddy]

The real question is: what else could you use it for? If you want a calculator, buy a calculator. If you want to figure out a novel use for hardware, get an open OS for it.

Re:MOD PARENT FUNNY!

[cmkrcs1]

Stop being insensitive, you clod.

HP 41-CX

[cpopin]

I'm sticking with my Hewlett-Packard 41-CX if you don't mind!

TIs already run Linux...

[shachart]

Ok, just kidding...

But, TI's DSPs run Linux. Check out this link