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Intel To Produce Cheap LCoS Chips

SeattleGameboy writes "NY Times has an article about Intel's plan to produce low-cost liquid crystal on silicon (LCoS) chips. This could result in high-resolution 7"-thick rear-projection TV costing around $1000 by next Christmas (not to mention cheap projectors). I guess I can put off buying a new TV for another year ..."

272 comments

  1. Google Link by pegr · · Score: 5, Informative

    Obligatory reg-free Google link here.

    1. Re:Google Link by akaina · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Story is "By JOHN MARKOFF" ???
      The same dude that demonized Mitnick to keep his paycheck?

      This guy is still working? What a jerkoff. He was probably paid by Intel to write that story.

      more detail here:
      http://www.simson.net/clips/96.IU.MitnickMa rkoff.h tml

      --
      Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose.
    2. Re:Google Link by akaina · · Score: 1

      If you can't stand Markoff, click my name, be my friend :)

      --
      Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose.
    3. Re:Google Link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or just login as slash1234/slash1234 rather than mucking with the partner system.

    4. Re:Google Link by RobertB-DC · · Score: 1

      Looks like they're on to us, again:

      Please enter your Member ID: slash1234
      Please enter your password: *********
      Couldn't find your Member ID or Password. Please re-enter them.

      --
      Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
  2. Google link for the tinfoil hat crowd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    I told them not to post the raw link.

    Here you go.

  3. "TrustedTV(tm) by grub · · Score: 5, Insightful


    Such a powerful marketing and technology combination could blend easily with Microsoft's media center software, which is aimed at using personal computing technology as the heart of home entertainment centers.

    That concerns me. Microsoft makes no bones about their "Trusted-this" and "DRM-that" direction. Considering their relationship with Intel I don't doubt that we'll see some sort of DRM crud built right into the TV to "protect consumers from themselves".

    --
    Trolling is a art,
    1. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by E-Rock · · Score: 1

      I'm still calibrating my tin-foil hat, so maybe you can give me a hand. What kind of DRM (which of course isn't mentioned anywhere in the announcement) would be integrated into a display device?

    2. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by mattdm · · Score: 1

      The kiind that makes it so nothing is decrypted until it gets to the screen itself -- closing the so-called "analog hole", unless you want to videotape the image from the monitor.

    3. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by grub · · Score: 3, Interesting


      Many devices (such as existing LCD displays) can take a digital signal already. In the "Intel/MS" scenario, assume the data stream comes from an unsigned source: the screen could refuse to display.

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    4. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by trentblase · · Score: 1

      Since when do you use loopholes in your TV to steal media anyways? I'd say that the main point of copyright violation would be before the signal enters the TV.

    5. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by ad0gg · · Score: 1, Informative
      mmm FUD...

      How does this have to article have to do with DRM? It mentions nothing about encoding of video signal just displaying it. TV still needs to get signal from some source(DVI or component inputs). So how exactly would DRM work, scramble the image on the display so you can't video tape it? DRM has to be farther up in the chain aka sattelite reciever,cable reciever, dvd. And all these output component or dvi.

      --

      Have you ever been to a turkish prison?

    6. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by Ben+Hutchings · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I expect that in the future video cameras will detect watermarked images and refuse to record them.

    7. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This (Parent) is FUD. Enjoy your tin-foil hat.

    8. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by gl4ss · · Score: 2, Insightful

      at this point that hardly matters as the device has to accept analog signals to be of any use, and for anyone to buy it(so that they can use it with their dvd players, pc's and consoles, not to mention regular tv).

      -

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    9. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by E-Rock · · Score: 1

      Then you simply refuse to buy. Joe six-pack isn't dropping a grand on a TV he can't hook up his (insert any currently manufactured video device) to.

    10. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by canajin56 · · Score: 1

      Not with the TV, but the media device. For example, putting a tape in the VCR, and then recording it onto the computer. A VCR that only outputs an encrypted signal is useless...unless the TV accepts encrypted signals.

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    11. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ever stop to think that since a DVI signal gets decoded by the monitor that it might just be possible to sign those digital signals? Of course not, because you already know everything about DVI. Well here you go Einstein, read the last paragraph. I realize the site is geared towards 5 years olds but maybe you can send in a correction based on your profound knowledge of DVI signals.

    12. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by Timmy · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because that strategy has been working so well already.

    13. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by leifm · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You know, this whining about MS and DRM is getting old. MS sees an opportunity with DRM, and they are taking it, and I don't blame them as it could be quite lucrative. But in order for DRM to work, at least as far as DRM for music/movies, comsumers have to accept it. So if the terms of the DRM MS uses for whatever aren't acceptable to the general public it will fail, doesn't matter what MS does. I think Apple's DRM is fair, so I buy from iTMS, and others must feel the same way. MS DRM will work the same way, if people feel it's fair they'll buy into it, if not it'll die.

      If IntelTV has some kind of hardware DRM that won't let you TiVo or whatever, then don't buy one, and if enough people feel the same way and avoid the technology MS/Intel/whoever will have to adjust. You don't see DivX players or media in Circuit City anymore do you?

      --

      "Windows Me offers tremendous reliability and stability improvements..." -- Paul Thurott
    14. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by modecx · · Score: 3, Funny

      That would be great.

      I'll get a watermark from a copyrighted product tatooed onto my forehead (or perhaps have my freckels re-arranged). Then I'll go around and steal stuff and rob people, because the security cameras won't record the image of my face; I'll be a walking pirated DVD.

      Woopie!

      --
      Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
    15. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many devices (such as existing LCD displays) can take a digital signal already. In the "Intel/MS" scenario, assume the data stream comes from an unsigned source: the screen could refuse to display.

      OH MY GOD! This scenario will spell the end of the world for all of us! Everyone gather your love ones, head for your shelter, and prepare!

      Really, though, how bout just not buying it if it is that bad?

    16. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ever stop to think that since a DVI signal gets decoded by the monitor that it might just be possible to sign those digital signals? Of course not, because you already know everything about DVI. Well here you go Einstein, read the last paragraph. I realize the site is geared towards 5 years olds but maybe you can send in a correction based on your profound knowledge of DVI signals.

      If you are so smart with DVI signals, then please enlighten us oh masterful one. I mean, you must be if you are correcting someone by linking them to a "site geared towards 5 year olds" rather than telling us yourself, so you must have gathered your masterful knowledge from there to begin with, right?

    17. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by E-Rock · · Score: 1

      Name all the video display devices with DRM. None? That's right, there aren't any.

    18. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by fiftyfly · · Score: 1
      MS DRM will work the same way, if people feel it's fair they'll buy into it, if not it'll die.
      y'know a couple years ago I would have agreed with you. Today, OTOH, what's to stop MS from simply _buying_ legislation forcing DRM whether we want it or not?
      --
      "Sanity is not statistical", George Orwell, "1984"
    19. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yada, yada, yada
      Another "free-market will fix all things" post. The problem with that approach is twofold:

      1) Free markets are long-term efficient but short-term swings, often substantial, are SOP.

      2) Like most markets in the US and the world, this one isn't free. In this case, the pigopolists get to change the rules by spending money on congress to create exemptions - e.g. the MPAA and RIAA already have a measure of anti-trust exemptions and they are buying more as we type.

      I, as many here, feel that the current market for information has swung way, way out of line and companies promoting DRM like MS are just pushing the market further out of whack, making it that much harder for it to return to a more reasonable center.

      You may not agree that this particular market is out of whack. But if you have even a modicum of ability to see things from another's perspective you will understand that for those who do believe, simply voting with your dollar is not effective in the short term (and by short term I am talking about decades). If the pigopolists get to buy laws in their favor, the population of concerned citizens ought to be able to push - both legislatively and as well as just making as much noise in public as possible to bring pressure on all DRM collaborators to change their course.

    20. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by timeOday · · Score: 1

      You know, this whining about MS and DRM is getting old.

      ...
      If IntelTV has some kind of hardware DRM that won't let you TiVo or whatever, then don't buy one, and if enough people feel the same way and avoid the technology MS/Intel/whoever will have to adjust.



      Obviously that's precisely the point of the "whining"... DRM is going to happen, the question is how much. The more people are convinced that it's bad, the less there will be.
    21. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by leifm · · Score: 1

      Whining isn't going to make any difference, not buying overly controlling DRM is. Everyone on /. is well aware of the issues caused by DRM, if you're going to talk about it wait till you're neighbor/co-worker/parents say they're thinking about buying DRM encumbered product x.

      --

      "Windows Me offers tremendous reliability and stability improvements..." -- Paul Thurott
    22. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by leifm · · Score: 1

      I don't think it's that important to MS. They're catering to something the content industry wants, providing the rope for a fee if you will. I don't think they're going to go out of their way to make sure the content industry hangs itself. MS has enough issues trying to get people to keep upgrading.

      --

      "Windows Me offers tremendous reliability and stability improvements..." -- Paul Thurott
    23. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by afidel · · Score: 1

      The only problem is that argument doesn't fly. MS alone is bigger than the entire media industry, if they were like the rest of the PC and consumer electronics market they would just ignore the pleas of the media industry for help.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    24. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by gaderson · · Score: 1

      Well, any display with a DVI/:HDCP (as developed by Intel), or HDMI connection, or a Firewire with 5C. Mitsubishi have Firewire, most new displays have DVI w/HDCP, and the DVD players that upconvert to HD resolutions are only output over their HDCP enabled DVI ports! Granted, at present HDCP is rather kludgy, have read articles on problems connecting with the latest boxes and displays. Also, the 5C works, since you can't record a D-Theater (warning flash), to a computer with a firewire port. And, in the last year or so one of the cable companies in New York "accidentily" enabled 5C copy never on their cable boxes. DRM for HD is alive and well.

      --

      Some days I feel like Schrodinger's cat.

    25. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by gaderson · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Well, any display with a DVI/: HDCP (as developed by Intel), or HDMI connection, or IEEE 1394 (Firewire/iLink) with 5C.

      Mitsubishi have Firewire, most new displays have DVI w/HDCP, and the DVD players that upconvert to HD resolutions are only output over their HDCP enabled DVI ports! Granted, at present HDCP is rather kludgy, have read articles on problems connecting with the latest boxes and displays. Not to mention the test channel on DirecTV that doesn't always work.

      Also, 5C works, since you can't record a D-Theater movie (warning flash), to a computer with a firewire port, or use the VGA connector from the Samsung SIR-T165 firewire STB when playing a tape. Oh, you say that's not fair use, but, it's just a glorified VHS tape, so how robust is that? Are you not allowed to make a backup of your flimsy tape?

      And, in the last year or so one of the cable companies in New York "accidentily" enabled 5C copy-never on their cable boxes.

      DRM for HD is just getting started. Can't wait for the Broadcast Flag.

      But, back to the article, hopefully Intel can get better yeilds since Hitachi and Mitsubishi have pulled their sets (ahh, can't find any links.) erik g

      --

      Some days I feel like Schrodinger's cat.

    26. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by fiftyfly · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I don't think it's that important to MS. They're catering to something the content industry wants, providing the rope for a fee if you will. I don't think they're going to go out of their way to make sure the content industry hangs itself. MS has enough issues trying to get people to keep upgrading.
      Which is exactly why it makes so much sense - by dominating the DRM/distribution model they control the supply of _all_ media and the hardware used to access it. Given their history this is something I find both fascinating & frightening. Clearly the american government isn't interested in seeing MS taken to task for monopolistic practices and, in a growth dominated market, there's imense pressure for MS to keep getting larger. DRM seems to me a perfect opportunity to let the legal sector give them the key to a whole slew of other industries.

      From the perspective of the Microsoft shareholder the abondonment of the American constitution looks to be a highly lucrative enterprise.

      --
      "Sanity is not statistical", George Orwell, "1984"
    27. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If IntelTV has some kind of hardware DRM that won't let you TiVo or whatever, then don't buy one, and if enough people feel the same way and avoid the technology MS/Intel/whoever will have to adjust. You don't see DivX players or media in Circuit City anymore do you? "

      Problem is, what happens when Trusted TV becomes a new standard? Then you really dont have a choice do you?

    28. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by KronicD · · Score: 1

      Bah!, we'll fight it every inch of the way, and if it beats us we'll have "Intel TV Card" with a third party modchip so we can capture it on our "DRM" hardware (which we'll also have modded).

      A look at the playstation or any cd/dvd based console now shows that hardware based DRM *WILL* be broken, simply because there is a market for it.

      --
      "Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"
    29. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by Short+Circuit · · Score: 1

      Other issues aside, video DRM folks will still have a lot of trouble detecting watermarks in anything encoded in a lossy compression format. (read, mpeg2 in DVD audio and video)

    30. Re:"TrustedTV(tm) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      You don't see DivX players or media in Circuit City anymore do you?
      Yeah, but you see DVD players and media. A tinfoil hat wearing person might suggest that DiVX was just a patsy to be the "bad guy" so that people would look the other way with regard to DVD's problems.

      If there had been no DiVX, and instead a competing format that was even more open than DVD, then maybe we wouldn't see DVD players or media on the market nowdays. Maybe I wouldn't have to commit a crime every time I watch the movies that I have bought.

  4. Article Text by iamweezman · · Score: 0, Redundant

    SAN FRANCISCO, Dec. 16 - The Intel Corporation is planning to do to digital television what it has already done to computing. At the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, which opens on Jan. 8, Intel is expected to disclose the development of a class of advanced semiconductors that technologists and analysts say will improve the quality of large-screen digital televisions and substantially lower their price, according to industry executives close to the company. Intel's ability to integrate display, television receiver and computer electronics on a single piece of silicon is likely to open new markets for a class of products - including plasma, projection and L.C.D. TV's - that now sell for $3,000 to $10,000. Intel, as well as other large chip manufacturers, should be able to expand the benefits of Moore's Law, named for Gordon Moore, a founder of Intel, which accurately predicted decades ago that computer chips would continue to double in capacity roughly every 18 months, while their price would continue to fall. "I think this brings Moore's Law to digital television," said Richard Doherty, a consumer electronics industry analyst who is president of Envisioneering, a consulting firm based on Long Island. He predicted that the low-cost display technology, which can be incorporated into the traditional rear-projection television sets, could lead to lightweight 50-inch screens only 7 inches thick for about $1,000, perhaps as early as the 2004 holiday season. Intel's expected decision to enter the television market is another powerful indicator of the computer industry's assault on the consumer electronics industry. Both Gateway and Dell are already selling large-screen digital TV's made for them in Asia, and Hewlett-Packard has indicated it will also enter the market. Such a powerful marketing and technology combination could blend easily with Microsoft's media center software, which is aimed at using personal computing technology as the heart of home entertainment centers. The Intel announcement, which is expected to be made at the show by Paul S. Otellini, the company's president and chief operating officer, would come just as high-definition digital television is beginning to take off in the United States. A spokesman for Intel said the company would not comment on Mr. Otellini's presentation to the consumer electronics show. This year, the Consumer Electronics Association, the trade group for the industry, said it expected revenue from digital television sets to surpass revenue from conventional analog sets for the first time. In June, sales of digital sets were running 110 percent ahead of sales in the month a year earlier. The technology Intel has been exploring is known as liquid crystal on silicon. It is one of a number of competing technologies, including a novel approach pioneered by Texas Instruments called digital light processors, or D.L.P. The Texas Instruments approach involves a silicon chip that has hundreds of thousands of microscopic mirrors that can tilt to reflect light. So far, it has been limited to relatively expensive digital TV's. By contrast, the technology used by Intel employs vast arrays of tiny electronic shutters that can alter the amount of reflected light, an approach that may allow companies to make big-screen TV sets using rear-projection technology that matches or exceeds the quality of flat-panel TV's at a much lower cost than plasma and conventional L.C.D. Although Intel is not expected to enter the market for digital televisions for at least a year, Philips Electronics, the Dutch manufacturer, and several American start-up companies have already begun offering liquid crystal on silicon, or LCoS, components and televisions. "LCoS had a Phase 1 in the mid-1990's," said Sandeep Gupta, chief executive of the MicroDisplay Corporation, a chip maker in San Pablo, Calif., that has announced an LCoS chip designed for HDTV applications that is planned for home televisions next year. Many of the companies that introduced the technology at that time, however, quickly failed. Wh

  5. Article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    December 17, 2003
    New Intel Chip for Digital TV Could Remake the Market
    By JOHN MARKOFF

    SAN FRANCISCO, Dec. 16 - The Intel Corporation is planning to do to digital television what it has already done to computing.

    At the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, which opens on Jan. 8, Intel is expected to disclose the development of a class of advanced semiconductors that technologists and analysts say will improve the quality of large-screen digital televisions and substantially lower their price, according to industry executives close to the company.

    Intel's ability to integrate display, television receiver and computer electronics on a single piece of silicon is likely to open new markets for a class of products - including plasma, projection and L.C.D. TV's - that now sell for $3,000 to $10,000.

    Intel, as well as other large chip manufacturers, should be able to expand the benefits of Moore's Law, named for Gordon Moore, a founder of Intel, which accurately predicted decades ago that computer chips would continue to double in capacity roughly every 18 months, while their price would continue to fall.

    "I think this brings Moore's Law to digital television," said Richard Doherty, a consumer electronics industry analyst who is president of Envisioneering, a consulting firm based on Long Island. He predicted that the low-cost display technology, which can be incorporated into the traditional rear-projection television sets, could lead to lightweight 50-inch screens only 7 inches thick for about $1,000, perhaps as early as the 2004 holiday season.

    Intel's expected decision to enter the television market is another powerful indicator of the computer industry's assault on the consumer electronics industry.

    Both Gateway and Dell are already selling large-screen digital TV's made for them in Asia, and Hewlett-Packard has indicated it will also enter the market. Such a powerful marketing and technology combination could blend easily with Microsoft's media center software, which is aimed at using personal computing technology as the heart of home entertainment centers.

    The Intel announcement, which is expected to be made at the show by Paul S. Otellini, the company's president and chief operating officer, would come just as high-definition digital television is beginning to take off in the United States.

    A spokesman for Intel said the company would not comment on Mr. Otellini's presentation to the consumer electronics show.

    This year, the Consumer Electronics Association, the trade group for the industry, said it expected revenue from digital television sets to surpass revenue from conventional analog sets for the first time. In June, sales of digital sets were running 110 percent ahead of sales in the month a year earlier.

    The technology Intel has been exploring is known as liquid crystal on silicon. It is one of a number of competing technologies, including a novel approach pioneered by Texas Instruments called digital light processors, or D.L.P.

    The Texas Instruments approach involves a silicon chip that has hundreds of thousands of microscopic mirrors that can tilt to reflect light. So far, it has been limited to relatively expensive digital TV's.

    By contrast, the technology used by Intel employs vast arrays of tiny electronic shutters that can alter the amount of reflected light, an approach that may allow companies to make big-screen TV sets using rear-projection technology that matches or exceeds the quality of flat-panel TV's at a much lower cost than plasma and conventional L.C.D.

    Although Intel is not expected to enter the market for digital televisions for at least a year, Philips Electronics, the Dutch manufacturer, and several American start-up companies have already begun offering liquid crystal on silicon, or LCoS, components and televisions.

    "LCoS had a Phase 1 in the mid-1990's," said Sandeep Gupta, chief executive of the MicroDisplay Corporation, a chip maker in San Pablo, Calif., that ha

    1. Re:Article by tr0p · · Score: 0, Flamebait
      SAN FRANCISCO, Dec. 16 - The Intel Corporation is planning to do to digital television what it has already done to computing.

      Yea, stick their trusted-computing dick into it.

      --

      My only regret... is that I have... bonitis..

  6. Hmm... by JoeLinux · · Score: 3, Interesting

    As long as they can do everything the HP MP3130 can do, I'll be happy.

    brightness: 1800 peak ANSI lumens
    display resolution: 1024 x 768 True XGA
    colors: 16.7 million
    light source: 180-watt compact P-VIP projector bulb

    optics

    lens: Non-telecentric
    zoom capability: Digital and optical
    projection distance: Approximately 3.3 to 29.4 ft

    mobility

    weight: 3.8 lb
    dimensions: (w x d x h) 9 x 7.8 x 2.9 in

    connectivity

    video: Built-in full-screen NTSC/PAL/SECAM/HDTV video capability with S-video inputs (from DVD, Camcorder or VCR), HDTV (480p, 480i, 720p, 1080i, composite and component video
    computer connectivity: XGA, SVGA, VGA, SXGA, SXGA+, Mac Lc13", Mac II 13", Mac 16", Mac 19", Mac, Mac G4, iMac DV

    1. Re:Hmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been looking at the Toshiba 57HL83 57" recently and $4,000-$5,000. It is "true" HD (1920x1080) LCoS and if anything like that will be available within a year for $1,000 or even $3,000, I'll be glad I've waited.

    2. Re:Hmm... by benwb · · Score: 1

      I'll be happy if they can give you a decent picture without the room light control you need with a projector.

    3. Re:Hmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      and ugly as sin
      What is so special about the HP MP3130 that it warrants a +5 for listing the specs. 1024x768... 4x3 resolution.... Nothing impressive their... where is my 16x9 HDTV resolution.

      DLP == nice, but this unit is still only sporting 1 lens and everyone knows that only 1 lens will give you the infamous Rainbow effect that makes some people sick. Granted 3 lens DLP will hurt your bank account dearly.

      and you listed all these specs and left off the best aspect of this projector... 2000:1 contrast... and also left off the 2500-3000 dollar price tag.

      Where is the reason in the post that this projector is the one to match up against?!? From what I read about this one... it is just one of many with the same/similar specs.

    4. Re:Hmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Room light control? You mean having to keep the room dark in order to see the projected image?

      It helps if you have a real reflective projection screen and not just a blank that I've seen so many people try to get by with. It also helps if you buy a DLP projector, which typically give you more lumens than a LCD projector.

      However, this article talks about backlit displays, which typically have less a problem with this than projected images.

    5. Re:Hmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just nit-picking here, but 4x3 and 16x9 are not resolutions, the are aspect ratios.

      Otherwise, yeah, what you said. Why drop a few grand for something that can't even do HDTV?

  7. Oops, by ActionPlant · · Score: 1, Funny

    I'd be go do some retractions to my christmas wishlist.

    A year? That's not so long to wait. Then again, it's been how many years.

    It's about time. Now for some big-screen, high-res fragging.

    Damon,

    --
    http://actionPlant.com
    1. Re:Oops, by The_K4 · · Score: 4, Funny

      If I stand in front of it and say "Engage" will the whole house move?

    2. Re:Oops, by ActionPlant · · Score: 3, Funny

      Either that or you'll wind up getting married to the thing.

      --
      http://actionPlant.com
    3. Re:Oops, by The_K4 · · Score: 1

      Good answer.

  8. You can always put it off ... by El+Cubano · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I guess I can put off buying a new TV for another year ...

    You can always put it off for another year. Eventually you just have to take the plunge and buy it, realizing that you will kick yourself in 6 months when the same product is available for 25 - 50% less. But if you keep putting it off, you'll never buy anything.

    1. Re:You can always put it off ... by GMFTatsujin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      if you keep putting it off, you'll never buy anything.

      You say that like it's a bad thing.

    2. Re:You can always put it off ... by Eccles · · Score: 1

      You can always put it off for another year. Eventually you just have to take the plunge and buy it, realizing that you will kick yourself in 6 months when the same product is available for 25 - 50% less.

      I want hi-res (pref 1080p), 50+", thin, light, no burn-in, good black levels, preferably with low power usage. When I can get all this for a tolerable price (for me, ~$3000), I won't wait another year.

      --
      Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
    3. Re:You can always put it off ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      50"?

      Your ceilings must be a lot lower than mine.

    4. Re:You can always put it off ... by freeweed · · Score: 1

      You say that like it's a bad thing.

      It is if you want the thing(s) in question.

      Buying a TV, or for that matter any sort of entertainment/toy/whatever_floats_your_boat isn't evil, and wanting one doesn't make you a bad person. Neither is not wanting/buying. Freedom is a wonderful thing.

      --
      Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
    5. Re:You can always put it off ... by YOU+LIKEWISE+FAIL+IT · · Score: 1
      It is if you want the thing(s) in question.

      If you really want it that bad, you'll take the wallet hit and buy it. If you can mentally afford to keep putting it off another year, I guess you don't really want / need it that badly after all.

      Sometimes its worth buying stuff you can use, even though you know it'll get a price cut / speed bump sometime soon *pats powerbook*. You can't hedge forever.

      --
      One god, one market, one truth, one consumer.
    6. Re:You can always put it off ... by JoshRoss · · Score: 1

      What about content? Why even purchase a $$$$ HDTV unless content exists? I guess you could get DirectTV and get a few HD channels for $$$. Maybe after Netflix starts renting HD content will I get a thin, light, no burn-in, good black levels thing to hang on my wall.

    7. Re:You can always put it off ... by Reziac · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Especially when in the meantime, someone gives me their perfectly good "outdated" TV :)

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    8. Re:You can always put it off ... by Eccles · · Score: 1

      What about content? Why even purchase a $$$$ HDTV unless content exists?

      There are DVD players that smoothly upconvert to 720p and 1080i, and presumably it looks better than standard def or upscaling the 480i or 480p signal. But really, there's content: "Medal of Honor", IL-2, and thousands of other PC games.

      Also, $$$$ is in the eye of the beholder. How many new and nearly new cars are there on the road, when there are millions of near-equally capable used cars around? How much more are Corian or granite counters compared to mica? And somebody's buying those $500 Jimmy Choo shoes. $3K for something you use a few hours almost every day really isn't that much. And with low power, no burn-in, you can leave it on with photos, weather and traffic reports, etc. when you're not watching something.

      --
      Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
    9. Re:You can always put it off ... by nick_davison · · Score: 1

      >>if you keep putting it off, you'll never buy anything.

      >You say that like it's a bad thing.


      That's un-American thinking, right there, Mister!

    10. Re:You can always put it off ... by squaretorus · · Score: 1

      But if you keep putting it off, you'll never buy anything.

      There are wants and needs. Back in the day I was sure that I needed a MegaDrive, a N64, a Saturn, and a nice big surround sound system.

      I haven't bought a new TV in ...ooh... 5 or 6 years. To be honest the only time this bothers me is if I'm fortunate enough to have time to sit and watch a DVD with my better half and the picture is too small due to the super-wide screen format on the disk - and my old square TV showing it about 8 or 9 inches high.

      Is it worth 1000 to get around this problem? No - thats a hell of a lot of cinema going - probably more than I'll spend going to the cinema before I retire!!

      Would I rather spend a fortnight playing around in boats on the Med or have a new TV? Boats.
      Would I rather have all my New Scientist, Economist, New Internationalist, Edge etc... subscriptions or a new TV? The subs.

      The next TV I buy will be half way along the line at Dixons - neither cheap nor cutting edge. And it will probably last me another 10 years.

      It bugs me that my single friends always talk about their TVs. Who cares if its the biggest, brightest new Wega with 327 speakers and an Aibo to fetch the remote for you! Its still just a TV. Its materialism of the highest order - only beaten by spending 750 on a pair of shoes to be worn maybe twice a year. Shocking! Bah humbug!

    11. Re:You can always put it off ... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      That's right. Anti-consumerist statements are illegal according to the ACS (Acceptable Consumer Speech) law passed in 2007. GMFTatsujin's location has been determined and enforcers are en route to arrest him now. Don't worry; he'll just have a short stay at a consumer re-education facility and then he can rejoin his family with a new outlook on life.

  9. Forecasting. by saintlupus · · Score: 5, Funny

    I guess I can put off buying a new TV for another year ...

    Yeah, that's what I said when I read that HDTV was "right around the corner." In _Commodore Magazine_. In 1988.

    Long fucking corner, that's for sure.

    --saint

    1. Re:Forecasting. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sings... "We'll be commming around the mountain when we come...We'll be commming around the mountain when we come......."

    2. Re:Forecasting. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      and a lot of wasted money. I have said it before and I will continue to say it. Mandated standards are good for NO ONE.

      HDTV was a waste of time, money, and effort. They spent years and years drafting legislation to force manufactorers to create this "fantastic" TV experience for nothing.

      I would have rathered that money be spend on something worthwhile... TV isn't important enough to warrant me being passed down a huge bill that was mandated by the government. I pay them enough.

    3. Re:Forecasting. by Best+ID+Ever! · · Score: 1

      How is this insightful? HDTV is not mandated -- only DTV is mandated.

      I would have rathered that money be spend on something worthwhile... TV isn't important enough to warrant me being passed down a huge bill that was mandated by the government. I pay them enough.

      Yeah, because the government is forcing you to buy an HDTV, even though you don't consider it worthwhile.

    4. Re:Forecasting. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      20 years! Shit that's like five minutes on the cosmuc timescale.

    5. Re:Forecasting. by garcia · · Score: 2, Insightful

      oh but they are. Sooner or later you will have to buy a television and it will HAVE to have the HDTV tuner included. Thus the cost is passed on to me for something I don't really want.

  10. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  11. Oh really? by iamdrscience · · Score: 5, Funny
    Quoth the article:
    The Intel Corporation is planning to do to digital television what it has already done to computing.
    They're going to bully out competition and make ethically questionable deals with other companies (cable, movie and videogame most likely) to maintain their market dominance?
    1. Re:Oh really? by MoonBuggy · · Score: 1

      Indeed, and they're going to do it while producing a product inferior to the competitors in most aspects and charge twice the price of the people who have less marketshare but make a better item.

    2. Re:Oh really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think they meant to say lose money.

    3. Re:Oh really? by DrewBeavis · · Score: 1
      Quoth the article: The Intel Corporation is planning to do to digital television what it has already done to computing.

      Or maybe add a serial number like the Pentium 3 so the advertisers know who is watching the ads? Let's hope Intel and Microsoft don't team up and make a DVR that WONT let you fast forward through commercials.

    4. Re:Oh really? by cujo_1111 · · Score: 1

      And some competitor will come along producing better and cheaper equipment, but because they don't know how to market their products to non-tech folk, haven't got enough production capacity and are using 5-10 year old manufacturing techniques they continue to lose money...

      --
      If I point out that you are incorrect, making me a foe does not make you any more correct.
    5. Re:Oh really? by SoSueMe · · Score: 1

      Great, now you've given them yet another "feature" to add.

    6. Re:Oh really? by Cloud+9 · · Score: 1

      Sony's been doing this for years. Sounds like it's par for the course, and a business model Intel can fit into quite easily.

      --
      Karma: Dyn-o-mite!(mostly affected by Jimmy Walker reading your comments)
  12. NON KARMA WHORE LINK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

    Here is a link that is providedby an AC, not a karma whore.

    Please note trolls are starting to karma whore like this to get the +2 bonus and spread their defamity among us all. Do not support the karma whores.

    1. Re:NON KARMA WHORE LINK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuckin' cry baby...

  13. What about the Light Bulb? by keep_it_simple_stupi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    With current DLP projection (front and rear) systems, there is a relatively expensive light bulb to be replaced every 3-5 years at around $200 a pop. If this is the case with the LCOS technology as well, I don't think it will fare as well as predicted. Time will tell.

    1. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by trailerparkcassanova · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah, and those damn cars will never take off either if you have to replace the tires every 3-5 years at $300 a pop.

    2. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by djbentle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      From the article: "The true market test only started this summer," he said. "Rear-projection D.L.P. systems are flying off the shelf."

      If it hasn't slowed down DLP, it probably won't slow this down either. Besides when you pay the $200 to replace the bulb in 5 years, your DLP will look brand new, exactly as it did the day you bought it. Try that with a five year old CRT rear projection set.

      David

    3. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LCOS does work the same way. And the expensive light bulb doesn't seem to have dampened enthusiasm for DLP systems and those cost $3000+ up front. If this chip from Intel can reduce the cost of these sets to 1/3 current prices then I don't see too many people complaining about the cost of the bulb. You have to remember that it isn't Joe AverageConsumer that is buying these sets.

    4. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by mh_tang · · Score: 1
      A decent new car costs anything from $17,000 to $60,000. $300 to replace tires represents a small percentage of the total cost of a car.

      A new DLP bulb, at $200 - $400 each, would be the equivalent of having to replace the engine block of your car every 3 years.

      So, IMO no it's not a trivial matter.

    5. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by Hollins · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Of course, in five years you'll likely be able to buy a better TV for $500, meaning few of the bulbs will be replaced.

      If this works out to $200 a year for a pretty decent thin high-def TV ($1000 for the set with an expected lifetime of 5 years), many will find it a good deal.

    6. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by keep_it_simple_stupi · · Score: 1

      Fair enough... But you're paying minimum 10 grand for a (crappy) new car, which only requires a $100 set of (just as crappy) tires (for the slow at math that's 1% of the total cost). Even a $400 set for a $20,000 car ends up being just 2% of the total.

      Ok now the Current DLP TV's... $4000 for a 50" TV. $200 for a bulb. That's still only 5%.

      Now if we have $1000 TV's requiring a new $200 bulb every 3 years, that's a whopping 20% of the purchase price!

      Of course none of this proves anything. So move along. Nothing to see here.

    7. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The point is not in the price, but in the operation. Without tires, a car is useless. Without the bulb, the projector is useless. So it IS a trivial matter.

    8. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by pellis23 · · Score: 1

      Actually, try every 2000 lamp-hours at $500/pop. This is for a DLP Font projector (Sharp 9000).

      From what I've seen, the DLP Rear Projectors have a rated lamp life on the order of 8000 hours. Presumably because they don't need to be a bright since the screen is smaller.

    9. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by PIBM · · Score: 1

      well, I NEED that car to get to the nearest city while I still have my 19" monitor to see the latest DVD movie ...

    10. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by djbentle · · Score: 1

      That's a good point about the percentages, but I don't think the sets based on Intel's chips will cost $1000 in a year. There is no way that's going to happen, that's just hype. Maybe they can lower the price of bulbs by the time the sets actually hit $1000.

      Even if Intel could price the chips at a level that would allow $1000 TVs, they still aren't the ones who are going to be setting the final price on the TVs, they aren't going to be building their own, just making the chips.

      The consumer electronic companies are going to have to choose between hugely undercutting everybody at $1000 with thin profit margins, or still significantly undercutting everybody at $2000-$2500 with large profit margins. I can tell you which way they would go, although I don't think Intel can really get it that cheap in that amount of time in the first place.

      If they are going to have anything in a year, let alone at a $1000, they better already be distributing basically final chips to TV manufacturers so they can design the sets. I've seen the delays between having a final prototype on display and volume shipping take most of a year, getting a new design out in under a year would be extremely fast.

      David

    11. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by mengel · · Score: 1
      Sure, for big displays you're probably going to end up with a Real Light Bulb (i.e. projection bulb), or maybe a Carbon Arc setup like in a spotlight (though they're awfully high maintenance for a home TV set...)

      But couldn't you make a smaller display with

      • 3 lcos chips
      • 1 each red, green, blue high output LED
      • translucent screen
      The LED's pretty much never burn out, so it would be a really long-life solution. On the other hand I'm not sure how bright of an LED you can get these days...
      --
      - "History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men" -- Blue Oyster Cult, 'Godzilla'
    12. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by jkj5301 · · Score: 1

      $200 is more than I would pay for a new TV.

    13. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by mengel · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Okay, so how many of you have inkjet printers out there?

      $199 printer
      $ 40 cartridge
      sounds to me like %20 of the purchase price...

      That of course leads to (by analogy) cheaper third party light bulbs that turn out not to last as long, and home filament repair kits...

      --
      - "History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men" -- Blue Oyster Cult, 'Godzilla'
    14. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by Mr.Phil · · Score: 1
      A new DLP bulb, at $200 - $400 each, would be the equivalent of having to replace the engine block of your car every 3 years.

      You obviously don't drive your car "correctly" then if you haven't the need to replace the engine block. VaROOM!

    15. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      A new DLP bulb, at $200 - $400 each, would be the equivalent of having to replace the engine block of your car every 3 years.

      And yet american car manufacturers somehow stay in business when this is essentially the case (an engine rebuild, at least). And no, I don't care that your Cavalier has 280,000 miles on it, because you're obviously lying to justify another moronic purchase.

      Don't discount the stupidity of the consuming public. Foresight is just a rumour.

    16. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I expect to get 100K+ out of my Prizm's engine. First American car I've bought in years. Please don't tell anyone why, it saved me a lot of money.

    17. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by zyridium · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Consider what will happen when there are more sets in operation that need these bulbs.

      Just like some small cars with strange tires cost more..

    18. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Single LED? Definitely not bright enough.

    19. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by tho+1234 · · Score: 1

      In addition, some studies (admittedly supported/publicised by Ti, the maker of DLP chips) have shown that that the LCD crystals themselves wear down after long exposure to the intense heat from the projector bulb. This is of more importance to business/university LCD projectors that use very intense bulbs and are used 8 hours a day, but would likely affect rear projection TV's as well.

      So in addition to replacing the bulb every 3-5 years, the entire TV may be unwatchable after 10 years of regular use.

      I'd rather wait a few years for LCD or OLED flat panels to reach large sizes, as they should offer better image quality and be much more reliable, though i don't think too many slashdotters watch enough TV to worry about burning it out :)

    20. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by tho+1234 · · Score: 1

      oops, forgot to post the link: http://www.extremetech.com/print_article/0,3998,a= 41131,00.asp

    21. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You won't likely see "long life" technologies from established firms, any too soon. They Average Planned Lifecycle of a TV is about 10 years, with a 20 year "max" (5% remain in service).

      Plasma fits that bill with a pixel half-life of about 8 years (wait till all those $3-10K sets start sporting nasty black pixels). VDTs fit the bill (complex high-voltage analog ciruits degrade quite nicely, thank you). Looks like bulb replacement and crystal degredation of projection LCD will fit the bill too.

      Cold cathode LCD and LED technologies extend the APL too greatly and, thus, won't be looked upon as cost effective research.

      You haven't seen long-life RF light bulbs yet, for exactly the same reason (and they've been cheaply doable for nearly 15 years now.)

      But, perhaps we can look to China. They seen to have a slightly broader view on these things (at least for now).

    22. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Does anyone know why these bulbs are so expensive? Is it just that they are very special purpose, low volume, and only appear in expensive products. Unless there is a real technical reason why these bulbs are expensive to produce, it would seem that dropping the price of the TV (from ~$4000 to ~$1500) and hence increasing volume would also bring down bulb prices. Also, how does bulb life and cost for the smaller rear projection TVs compare to the front projection systems.

    23. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by bigredlemon · · Score: 0

      because they are expensive to make. 500 lumen bulbs that last 50 hours (usually used for projectors) cost $20 each. 2000 lumen bulbs taht last 1000 hours is pretty cheap for $300. (4 times as bright, and last 20 times as long, but only cost 15 times more.)

    24. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by sirsex · · Score: 1

      3-5 yr? I really need to stop buying Z-rated tires. 20 months, maybe, $150 a piece

    25. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by sirsex · · Score: 1

      Anybody know what it is that makes these bulbs cost so much? I can buy 100W HID headlight bulbs for $25, and blind someone a mile away

    26. Re:What about the Light Bulb? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      They have very tight specs (to produce a nice white light for good color fidelity), are very bright for their size, and are limited quantity items, usually only available OEM. 100W HID headlight buld is commodity, nobody really cares if it wanders blue/red. And only 100W. Some projector bulbs push 300W.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
  14. Moore's law for TVs??? by Beek · · Score: 5, Funny

    Are we going to have to upgrade our TVs as often as we upgrade computers?

    1. Re:Moore's law for TVs??? by Lord_Dweomer · · Score: 1
      "Are we going to have to upgrade our TVs as often as we upgrade computers?"

      Perhaps. And if M$ manages to entrench themselves into all of our tvs in the future, expect to have to download service packs for your tv too. Oh, and don't bother trying to change the channel, you'll just get a BSOD.

      --
      Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
  15. Obligatory related article link by Crazy+Man+on+Fire · · Score: 1

    This article is in the registration free section of NYT

  16. Cheap panels by presearch · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Will there be $1000 panels or $3000 panels with a much higher profit margin?

    Then again, there might be a new, huge mass market for large panels...

    "Behind Winston's back the voice from the telescreen was still babbling away about pig-iron and the overfulfilment of the Ninth Three-Year Plan. The telescreen received and transmitted simultaneously.

    Any sound that Winston made, above the level of a very low whisper, would be picked up by it, moreover,
    so long as he remained within the field of vision which the metal plaque commanded, he could be seen as well as heard."

  17. waiting, yay. by User+956 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This could result in high-resolution 7"-thick rear-projection TV costing around $1000 by next Christmas (not to mention cheap projectors). I guess I can put off buying a new TV for another year ..."

    Yeah, it could result in that. But how long have we been waiting for stuff that could happen in a year. Broadband over power lines rings a bell. If you'd been waiting for that, you'd still be on dialup.

    --
    The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
    1. Re:waiting, yay. by keep_it_simple_stupi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes but there's a difference. Broadband over power lines is technically unfeasible because of the ridiculous amount of radio interference generated. LCOS screens are already available. You are correct in another way, we have to wait and see if the price really drops or if they just enjoy a higher profit margin.

    2. Re:waiting, yay. by FooAtWFU · · Score: 1

      I still AM on dialup, you insensitive clod!

      (well, at home, anyway. I got 10mbps at the office :)

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    3. Re:waiting, yay. by ps_inkling · · Score: 1
      But how long have we been waiting for stuff that could happen in a year. Broadband over power lines rings a bell. If you'd been waiting for that, you'd still be on dialup.

      I am still on dialup, you insensitive clod!

      No cable, no DSL, too much lag over satellite.

      I wish someone would apply Moore's law to internet connectivity.

    4. Re:waiting, yay. by Lord+of+the+Wazz · · Score: 1

      Broadband over power lines is technically unfeasible because of the ridiculous amount of radio interference generated.

      Hmmm... am I missing something then? One of the guys at my work got broadband from Scottish Hydro-Electric and regularly gets speeds of 1Mbps each way.

  18. DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "that you will kick yourself in 6 months when the same product is available for 25 - 50% less" ...with 25-50% more DRM to prevent you from watching your own content on your own TV.

  19. AAAAAAAARGH by GMFTatsujin · · Score: 4, Funny
    Intel, as well as other large chip manufacturers, should be able to expand the benefits of Moore's Law, named for Gordon Moore, a founder of Intel, which accurately predicted decades ago that computer chips would continue to double in capacity roughly every 18 months, while their price would continue to fall.

    Can we please, please, PLEASE stop mentioning Moore's Law in every single freaking article about Intel?

    What are they going to do: make televisions cost half as much and go twice as fast after 18 months?
    1. Re:AAAAAAAARGH by keep_it_simple_stupi · · Score: 4, Funny

      What are they going to do: make televisions cost half as much and go twice as fast after 18 months?

      No, even better. Half as much and twice as BIG after 18 months. In 20 years we should all have drive-in theaters in our back yards. :)

    2. Re:AAAAAAAARGH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Personally, I think it's just wrong that televisions haven't gotten any faster over the last 50 years. Obviously we need an innovative company like Intel to step in an move things along.

    3. Re:AAAAAAAARGH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Personally, I don't own a television. First my TV broke, about 2 years ago. Then I had a TV tuner in my comp. for a while, but it didn't work that well so I watched less and less. Now I don't watch any. You can achieve this too. Just throw your television out. You don't need it.

      Of course if you just want the big screen for some other mind-numbing purpose, like video gaming, then that's fine. But please... don't waste hours and days and weeks and months of your life watching television shows.

      Thankyou.

    4. Re:AAAAAAAARGH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for your insightful comment on the LCoS technology discussed in the article. Oh, wait.

    5. Re:AAAAAAAARGH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are they going to do: make televisions cost half as much and go twice as fast after 18 months?

      If it goes twice as fast, won't everyone on the TV start sounding like Alvin and the Chipmunks?

    6. Re:AAAAAAAARGH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Accurately read a few graphs and made a prediction that matched the graph trends.

    7. Re:AAAAAAAARGH by damien_kane · · Score: 1

      In 20 years we should all have drive-in theaters in our back yards

      Risin' above the city, blocking out the noonday sun
      It dwarfs the mighty redwoods and it towers over everyone
      I still remember when that delivery truck came down our block
      What a lucky guy, I hear he got the last one in stock
      And the neighbors are just green
      They say, "That's the biggest screen we've ever seen!"

      It's Frank's 2000" TV
      Everbody come and see
      Frank's 2000" TV

      That's Frank's remote control, you can look, but don't touch it, please
      'Cause Frank's the one in charge and he decides what everybody sees
      The picture's crystal clear and everything is magnified
      Robert DeNiro's mole has got to be ten feet wide
      Everybody in the town
      Can hear those 90,000 watts of Dolby sound
      And I'm mighty proud to say
      Now I can watch "The Simpsons" from thirty blocks away

      On Frank's 2000" TV
      Everybody come and see...

      Frank's 2000" TV - "Wierd" Al Yankovic...

    8. Re:AAAAAAAARGH by dyte · · Score: 1

      Pardon my rusty math, but, 20 years after breaking the $1000 50" barrier would not fit in my back yard! If my math is right, this would be (50" * 2 ^ ( Years /1.5)) and it would cost ($1000 * .5 ^ ( Years /1.5)). The 10 cents that it would cost (actually 9.69) is not the problem, its the 516063.7" screen ( 8.1 miles). But in 5 years and 4 months 85 bucks gets you about a 50 footer

    9. Re:AAAAAAAARGH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Can we please, please, PLEASE stop mentioning Moore's Law in every single freaking article about Intel?
      If you think it's annoying now, then consider this: 18 months from now, Moore's Law will be mentioned about twice as often. And by 2019, every single Slashdot post will contain an explicit reference to Moore's Law.
    10. Re:AAAAAAAARGH by bobbozzo · · Score: 1

      Twice as bright would be nice. This can actually be acheived without increasing the bulb's wattage by using 3 LCDs or DLPs or whatever instead of 1. I believe some mid-range LCD bigscreens do use 3 chips, but with DLP, that is currently very expensive (probably mostly due to TI's monopoly on DLP), but if LCOS takes off, perhaps it will be cheaper.

      --
      Nothing to see here; Move along.
  20. Oops by Crazy+Man+on+Fire · · Score: 1

    Yeah, didn't read that one too closely. Obviously not on NYT...

  21. Insightful? by glrotate · · Score: 0, Troll

    Blah blah blah Microsoft sucks blah blah blah DRM.

    How is the parent insightful?

    1. Re:Insightful? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the same way your teh ghey, fagget.

    2. Re:Insightful? by bradkittenbrink · · Score: 1

      here, this should explain it to you.

    3. Re:Insightful? by cujo_1111 · · Score: 1

      You must be new here...

      --
      If I point out that you are incorrect, making me a foe does not make you any more correct.
  22. finally.... by pavs · · Score: 1

    something to look forward to that doesn't cost 4 grand and actually fits somewhere.

  23. Rear Projection vs Flat Panel by landoltjp · · Score: 1

    This could result in high-resolution 7"-thick rear-projection TV costing around $1000 by next Christmas

    I'm really a non-fan of rear-projection TVs, with their odd image quality and limited viewing angles. I wonder how long it will take this technology to be adapted to large-format, flat panel displays? I for one would be a big fan of a $1,000 42" flat panel display.

    1. Re:Rear Projection vs Flat Panel by marcop · · Score: 1

      Plasmas use expensive, bulky electronics due to the relatively high voltages that are inherent in Plasma screens. LCD's have yield problems as screen size increases. I don't think that this will help Plasma or direct view LCD's in bringing the price down considerably.

    2. Re:Rear Projection vs Flat Panel by AnyNoMouse · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I'm really a non-fan of rear-projection TVs, with their odd image quality and limited viewing angles. I wonder how long it will take this technology to be adapted to large-format, flat panel displays? I for one would be a big fan of a $1,000 42" flat panel display.

      Have you seen a DLP Rear Projection TV recently? They are *nothing* like the old clunky CRT types from yesteryear. Color is very good, resolution is excellent and the viewing angle is actually quite good.

      As far as your $1,000 42" flat panel display goes, the LCOS technology we're talking about here is not direct view. It uses reflected light just as a DLP does. The current techlogy for direct view screens like what you're speaking about are LCD and Plasma and both have their own problems.

      --
      -Redundancy Man strikes again!
    3. Re:Rear Projection vs Flat Panel by modecx · · Score: 1

      Even the newer CRT based HDTVs aren't that bad. They have their own set of issues, as you say, but they aren't terrible.

      The one I bought last year for $1300 is really quiet decent, and has served me well. I have no problems watching it from odd angles (watching from the floor, and the corners of the couch, and from the end of the room. It's not bad at all.

      --
      Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
    4. Re:Rear Projection vs Flat Panel by AnyNoMouse · · Score: 1

      Actually, you're absolutely right. most of the large screen TV's these days are really quite good. Much better than the stuff that was out 5-10 years ago. And the prices for rear projection sets is actually pretty decent. My only real problem with big screens is that they weigh around a metric buttload :-)

      --
      -Redundancy Man strikes again!
  24. Apples and Oranges by GrnyS · · Score: 3, Informative

    Isn't the HP MP3130 more than twice as expensive
    as the ~$1000 units based on this technology predicted by Doherty?

  25. LCoS is not as new as the article suggests by Zed2K · · Score: 3, Informative

    "several American start-up companies have already begun offering liquid crystal on silicon, or LCoS, components and televisions."

    Toshiba has had an LCoS TV out for quite awhile now. I believe Mitsubishi also has one out. They are super expensive though. Native 1080p resolution and really thin though.

    1. Re:LCoS is not as new as the article suggests by BigGerman · · Score: 1

      there is also a 55 inch LCoS Phillips which I saw around $3000 at Fry's. Hardly super-expensive comparing to Plasma and even DLP.

    2. Re:LCoS is not as new as the article suggests by Zed2K · · Score: 1

      A Phillips tv is not anywhere in the same league as a Toshiba Cinema Display tv. Its like comparing RCA to a Pioneer Elite.

    3. Re:LCoS is not as new as the article suggests by mcg1969 · · Score: 1

      And let's not forget JVC D-ILA projectors, Hitachi LCOS projectors, the new Sony Qualia LCOS..

    4. Re:LCoS is not as new as the article suggests by WuphonsReach · · Score: 1

      Toshiba 57HLX82 - (press release, May 2002), 57", (3) 1080p LCoS chips, msrp: $8,999.99, depth is only 18"

      Mitsubishi WL-82913A - $18,000 (list was around $21,000), can't find a listing on Mitsubishi's site

      --
      Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
    5. Re:LCoS is not as new as the article suggests by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah yes, branding defines quality. The adverts say it, the salesmen say it, therefore it must be true. You probably think you can hear the difference between a $120 set of Monster Cable(R)(tm) and $2/foot heavy-gague wire from Home Depot, too...

    6. Re:LCoS is not as new as the article suggests by Cloud+9 · · Score: 1
      No, in this case, features define quality. A Toshiba Cinema Display has a 1080p native resolution, assignable color, brightness, and contrast settings for _each_ input, and a super-sexy cabinet. A Philips LCoS is just another low-buck thin display.

      Speak of what you know.

      --
      Karma: Dyn-o-mite!(mostly affected by Jimmy Walker reading your comments)
    7. Re:LCoS is not as new as the article suggests by Zed2K · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Philips is just another low-buck thin display. You get what you pay for, in this case substandard if you buy the philips, but hey its cheap, right? Some people go with the cheapest they can get. People that really care about what they are looking at will spend the extra money to get the best.

  26. hah by happyfrogcow · · Score: 3, Funny

    <obscene gesture>I got your 7 inch thick rear projection right here</obscene gesture>

    1. Re:hah by Blimey85 · · Score: 1

      rear projection? Are you deformed? I'm all about my 12" front projection... but that's just me.

      --
      How is it that one careless match can start a forest fire, but it takes a whole box to start a campfire?
    2. Re:hah by tomzyk · · Score: 1

      After he does the tuck, it still measures 7" out behind him.

      aw geez... why did I put even a LITTLE bit of thought into that one...?

      --
      Karma: NaN
  27. Breakdown of the different HDTV technologies by mh_tang · · Score: 3, Interesting
    From what I understand, the main drawback of plasma besides price is that there is permanent burn-in of images. So if you watch the news, the tickers and other graphics at the bottom of your screen might leave permanent traces. Even worse, since most programming these days is still in 4:3 format, you will have black bars on the sides of your screen; I'm not exactly sure if the black is either burned in, or if it is turned off does the center get unproportional wear and tear over time?

    DLP is nice, but a main issue with DLP is that you have to replace the bulbs every 3-4 years. Currently, bulbs for DLP units range anywhere from $300-600, which is no small investment. Of course, DLP is also a projection format, so the viewing angle is not as wide, and from what ones I've seen at the store, the blacks aren't quite as dark as the plasmas or traditional CRTs.

    Does the LCoS technology address these issues of screen burn in, viewing angle, accurate colors & brightness, and bulb replacement?

    1. Re:Breakdown of the different HDTV technologies by Zed2K · · Score: 2, Informative

      LCoS doesn't have any burn-in problems. There was talk awhile ago about a type of "memory" problem that would fade but it wasn't a permanent burn in. I don't know if that was just a software problem or a hardware problem or if it even exists anymore.

      The biggest problem with the big tv's is burn in. That is permanent. Viewing angle is not that big of a deal these days. Accurate colors and dark blacks is a problem, but that can be solved by getting the box calibrated correctly.

    2. Re:Breakdown of the different HDTV technologies by marcop · · Score: 1

      Is the memory problem related to "image stick" that can happen in LCD's? From what I understand, if the LCD drive signal has a DC component to it then the liquid crystal may not relax back to an undriven state. This can be avoided if LCD drive electronics are designed properly.

    3. Re:Breakdown of the different HDTV technologies by AnyNoMouse · · Score: 2, Informative
      DLP is nice, but a main issue with DLP is that you have to replace the bulbs every 3-4 years. Currently, bulbs for DLP units range anywhere from $300-600, which is no small investment. Of course, DLP is also a projection format, so the viewing angle is not as wide, and from what ones I've seen at the store, the blacks aren't quite as dark as the plasmas or traditional CRTs.

      There is a new TI chip on the market that greatly improves the contrast levels of DLP. Not quite as good as a really good CRT, but certainly acceptable.

      LCOS, like DLP, is not a direct view technology and instead reflect light from a light source (bulb). The amount of light needed for these types of displays means a fairly expensive bulb replacement every 1000 - 3000 hours depending on the type of bulb.

      --
      -Redundancy Man strikes again!
    4. Re:Breakdown of the different HDTV technologies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I don't know about other DLP's but my Samsung has an extremely wide viewing angle (but not vertically), has good black levels, is impossible to burn in, and the bulbs cost about $200, which is user serviceable.

    5. Re:Breakdown of the different HDTV technologies by Zed2K · · Score: 1

      I haven't personally seen it, I just read some postings on it, but it sounds just like that. There were screen shots taken with a digital camera. It looked like burn in but would fade after awhile. It might not be a problem anymore and might have just been related to it being brand new technology at the time.

    6. Re:Breakdown of the different HDTV technologies by rimu+guy · · Score: 1

      Another problem with DLP is that the mirrors reflect only the light shone on them. They have no color. So DLP has 3 different colored filter wheels spinning at a rate (synchronized with the DLP chip mirrors) to create the illusion of color.

      This creates the so-called 'rainbow effect'. Which some people see. And which reportedly can invoke headaches.

      LCD projectors (or pricier 3 chip DLP systems) thus have some advantages.

      LCoS sounds like the perfect blend of price and quality.

      But who can wait? I think I'm still going to get my Sanyo PLV-Z2 projector.

      VPS Hosting - Free Wide Screen TV with all accounts prepaid 16 years in advance.

    7. Re:Breakdown of the different HDTV technologies by swb · · Score: 3, Informative

      From what I've read on the AVS plasma forums, burn-in is pretty much a non-issue for typical television watching, especially if you watch 4:3 content in one of the 16:9 stretch/zoom modes the sets support. We have two plasmas in our conference room and they're used significantly with presentations (you know, long-winded marketers that have a logo in the bottom right the whole 3 hour meeting..), and they show no signs of burn in. My concern with plasma is longevity -- there are some concerns about how long a plasma display can last.

      Lamping is a serious technology problem for DLP, LCoS and LCD rear projections, and each technology has some particular issues unique to it, such as the DLP colorwheel and LCD reaction times.

      I personally expect direct-view plasma to become a more popular option, and a cheaper one. It has a very bright image, is thin, and does not require any lamping. I think in a couple of years 42" HD plasmas will be easily available for $2000 and ED models for even less.

      I personally bought a Sony LCD RP. Cheaper than plasma today, and I think a superior image to my eyes than DLP. There really aren't many LCoS sets on the market now, or at least few at a price point competitive with alternatives like LCD or DLP.

    8. Re:Breakdown of the different HDTV technologies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I use an LCOS projector on a 10' wide, 16x9 screen as my primary monitor (the original JVC G1000 with an anamorphic lens). I have an HDTV tuner card which I often run in a window on the desktop. I find that it often leaves a color memory, but not just the rectangle of the tuner window, but the entire vertical column of pixels in which the window sits (kind of makes sense when you think about how LCD works).

      A few hours of putting the tuner window in another location, outside the initial column, is enough to make the color change go away. But simply turning it off for a day or two does not make an appreciable change in this "burn in" effect, you have to actively "undo" it.

      PS, laying on the couch with a wireless keyboard and a 10'-wide screen is very addicting. Now if I could only get a setup like that in my cube at work...

    9. Re:Breakdown of the different HDTV technologies by Cloud+9 · · Score: 1
      ... from what ones I've seen at the store, the blacks aren't quite as dark as the plasmas or traditional CRTs.

      Chances are the set wasn't properly calibrated. Blacks are truly black on a DLP set, so they can get just as dark as a CRT or plasma. Do a side-by-side comparison with a LCD projection TV, and you'll see what a crappy black level looks like.

      --
      Karma: Dyn-o-mite!(mostly affected by Jimmy Walker reading your comments)
  28. 7"!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Imagine watching the big game on the SUCKER! I'll be the envy of all my friends...

  29. Re:Of course by billimad · · Score: 1

    thats always true to some extent but in this case you have to ask yourself if you will be able to buy a plasma screen next year for a little bit cheaper or a little bit better (for the same cost you'd pay today) against a more cheaper or more better (for the depreciated price). but i doubt they'll ship by next xmas. i.e. this sounds like a significant change in display technology. if you believe them.

    ps what's with the sir haxalot hate posts?

  30. In other news: by holysin · · Score: 5, Funny

    AMD has announced it will be producing even lower cost chips that while rated for lower resolution, achieve higher resolution, but only when used with much larger cooling solutions.

    1. Re:In other news: by Lord_Dweomer · · Score: 1
      "AMD has announced it will be producing even lower cost chips that while rated for lower resolution, achieve higher resolution, but only when used with much larger cooling solutions."

      Greaaaat. Next thing you know you'll walk into your friends dorm room to be confronted with a huge flat panel tv, with a transparent case, internal strobe lights, and liquid nitrogen cooling systems.

      Perhaps I should register www.tvcasemods.com.

      --
      Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
  31. Intel... by DaneelGiskard · · Score: 5, Funny

    The Intel Corporation is planning to do to digital television what it has already done to computing

    Get 3.999998456 digital television sets for the price of 2.00000000 + 2.000000000? ;-)

    1. Re:Intel... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ha Ha Ha! Floating point numbers are inherently imprecise.

      Why do you think thats funny?

    2. Re:Intel... by DaneelGiskard · · Score: 1

      Welcome!

      You must be new to computing ;-)

    3. Re:Intel... by EulerX07 · · Score: 1

      Do a search for "pentium floating point bug" on google.

      It's funny because they had a division bug in early pentium, and this product is new.

      When you don't get jokes, keep quiet, you'll look smarter.

    4. Re:Intel... by Moofie · · Score: 1

      But if you ask questions, you'll BE smarter.

      Which is better?

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    5. Re:Intel... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'll also look smarter if you make jokes that are even remotely relevant.

    6. Re:Intel... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is better?

      Asking questions in a less offensive manner.

    7. Re:Intel... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, butt breath. This has nothing to do with the floating point bug in the first pentiums- the behavior he describes is basic behavior inherent to ALL floating point calculations on ALL processors. It is YOU that apparently doesn't understand what is going on.

      So again I ask, why do you think this is funny?

    8. Re:Intel... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hi there. You must

      a) have no idea how floating point calculations work, because your "joke" applies to any floating point implementation on any processor
      b) have no idea what the pentium floating point bug was 8 years ago

      But thanks for playing, retard!

    9. Re:Intel... by Moofie · · Score: 1

      What, exactly, was offensive about the post? The poster wasn't rude or snarky, just ignorant.

      Can't tell you how many things I'm ignorant about. Those are the things I like to ask questions about.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    10. Re:Intel... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well...looks like you are making it even more funny than it already is ;-)

  32. chip availibility/inventors place in 21st centry? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I hope Intel does the right thing and make this chip availible to experimenters as TI refuses to make their reflective mirror chip availible to experimenters. That way you could make your own displays/multiple screen displays. It's too bad companies like TI refuse to sell their (refflective chips) to the exprimenter/small product developers, we have reached an age where nobody works on their own cars anymore or people don't build as much things anymore (we just buy stuff)...I know that it's more expensive to build stuff, but the whole computer revolution was started by people working in their basement/garages developing cool stuff. The high-tech culture we live in is determined to a great extent by the ability of the people around you to be able to develop new products, not just big companies (look at linux). I hope that someday cheap fpga's come around and eventually real cheap nanotech allows everybody the ability to make something new.

  33. Intel should be using MY chip designs! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    I have invented a Central Processing Unit design that allows failed components of the Central Processing Unit to be replaced without replacing the entire Central Processing Unit. The massive Central Processing Unit would be in a grid-like pattern and each failed quadrant of the grid could then be replaced with a new quadrant. The primary failure prone areas such as the Floating Point Unit and system Cache is designed to run on the outside of the core Central Processing Unit. Beneath the primary failure prone construction resides the backup infrastructure. Once a failure is detected the processing moves closer to the Central Processing Unit. What results is a faster computation during a failure. This schematic would allow many layers of redundancy with many higher levels where the highest level is the one that gets re-routed to a layer closer to the Central Processing Unit during a failure and then, if there was a subsequent failure, the level beneath it (which is closer to the core part of the Central Processing unit) is activated. Failed modules such as the Floating Point Unit and system Cache could be replaced while the system is running and then would be engaged to compute information. This idea was invented by Shampoo.

    1. Re:Intel should be using MY chip designs! by Orne · · Score: 1

      Congratulations, you just invented EEPROMs.

  34. Re:I just read a book on this subject! tsarkon rea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Warning! Goatse link embedded above! (Nicely done, btw)

  35. put off buying a new TV by NonaMyous · · Score: 3, Interesting
    "I guess I can put off buying a new TV for another year ..."

    I am putting of purchasing a new HDTV because I don't understand what the impact of the broadcast flag will be TVs and related products. I will be very upset if my expensive digital TV stops working 2005.

    1. Re:put off buying a new TV by Hepkat · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actaully, better to buy now in that sense...
      The broadcast flag will have no effect on what is currently being made. It will only affect devices that are built to be affected

    2. Re:put off buying a new TV by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hepkat is totally right.

      The flag is just a bit that is ignored by current hardware, no over-the-air encryption, nada, just a bit. But soon (and you can count on it happening before the mandated deadline because manufacturers don't want to get caught out by unexpected delays) equipment is going to show up that obeys the bit and encrypts anything that is received in the clear but with the bit set. So, buy your HDTV tuners (PCI cards and set-top boxes with firewire output) today while the flag is still ignored, else you will find that you can't usefully record anything hi-def.

    3. Re:put off buying a new TV by man_ls · · Score: 1

      Any recommendations of what to get, and when we can expect to see devices that comply with it coming on the market?

  36. Pfffffft! by msimm · · Score: 1

    Like your still going to have it in another 3-5 years!

    --
    Quack, quack.
  37. Shiiiiiitttt... by msimm · · Score: 1

    Mooches. ;-)

    Oh! I mean fight the power!!

    --
    Quack, quack.
  38. Rear Projection? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why would anyone buy an 80's-inspired, crap-quality Rear Projection set anymore?

    1. Re:Rear Projection? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Personally I'd rather have a 70's-inspired front projection set.

      Seriously, I remember front projection sets from the late-70's and early-80's. They were rather large ang bulky then, though, and had to sit on the floor next to your chair. But now they're compact and can be mounted on the ceiling. Why anyone would want to hassle with a big rear-projection box when you can have a simple ceiling-mounted projector and a screen on the wall is beyond me. This is one of those cases where the old way is better than the new way.

  39. replacing a light bulb vs tires by RowdyReptile · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yeah, and those damn cars will never take off either if you have to replace the tires every 3-5 years at $300 a pop

    The light bulb (at $200) is a much more significant fraction of the cost of the TV than tires are compared to the cost of a car. Like 5-10% vs 1.5%.

    --

    You want a sig? I can get you a sig... Hell, I can get you a sig by 3 o'clock this afternoon... with nail polish.
    1. Re:replacing a light bulb vs tires by trailerparkcassanova · · Score: 1

      How much is your $60K car going to be worth with 2000 hrs and 3-5 years on it? How much are you going to spend on it during that period?

  40. Plannd on waiting a year by wildchild07770 · · Score: 1

    This is why I haven't bought any LCDs besides my laptop yet. For almost a year now market anaylsis has said Plasmas and HDTV LCD screens are going to drop between 15 and 50 percent in cost, that's just what this is going to do. I almost pity all the people who in a rush to beat the curve and be "cool" bought those 4 or 5 thousand dollar Plasma tvs when if they could've practiced a small degree of self discipline and waited another year and a half could've saved almost 4 grand.

    1. Re:Plannd on waiting a year by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      well, you could say that about the latest PC or car too, in 18 months it'll be thousands cheaper. People who want the latest/greatest don't worry about 4K over 18 months. Then there's people like me, I've bought a Sun and SGI box for 1% of original price because I "waited" 5 years.

    2. Re:Plannd on waiting a year by freeweed · · Score: 1

      This is why I haven't bought any LCDs besides my laptop yet

      I almost pity all the people who in a rush to beat the curve and be "cool" bought those 4 or 5 thousand dollar Plasma tvs when if they could've practiced a small degree of self discipline and waited another year and a half could've saved almost 4 grand

      Hmm.. I wonder how much less your laptop would have cost you if you had waited a year and a half? :)

      --
      Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
    3. Re:Plannd on waiting a year by phy_si_kal · · Score: 1

      a very decent (panasonic TH-42PWD6UY) can be found for 2400$ delivered... your 50% are already here !

    4. Re:Plannd on waiting a year by madcow_ucsb · · Score: 1

      Bear in mind that it's only 852x480 (as opposed to 1920x1080 in real HDTV)....

      Another "HDTV-compatible" plasma that downconverts the signal...

      But Plasma's trouble anyway. My friend's got a Fujitsu one (1024x1024), couple years old, given to him by a ridiculously rich friend. Looks great, and definitely makes me question my manhood seeing that in his place and a 27" trinitron in mine.

      But the burn-in is out of control. Staying on a tv show for 30min is long enough to have the logo burned into the bottom right for a while. And most programming is 4:3 so you've got the bars on the side. They're black, but you can see the burn in from the rest of the picture contrasted with the black space, so the color gets kinda weird if you go widescreen afterwards. You could zoom or stretch, but both those settings drive me nuts (everyone looks fat or you chop of heads)

      And forget about video gamse. The status and menus will stick around for a good hour or so after you stop playing.

      Maybe they've gotten better now, but I'd be hesitant to spend much money on a plasma....

    5. Re:Plannd on waiting a year by man_ls · · Score: 1

      Is it perma-burnin or jsut temporary burn in?

      If the status and menus go away after an hour, and won't cause any permanant damage, that's fine...I can deal with that.

      If they stick forever, that'd piss me off.

    6. Re:Plannd on waiting a year by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a SUN and a SGI box?!?! Woah, 1% of original price! That's cool. I just bought a 386DX33 for $1.... the owner said he paid $2000 for it in 1992. So I see your 1% and raise you 0.05%. How ya like them apples?

      Just because SUN and SGI make big boxen doesn't mean you got a deal or you're a savvy buyer. Yeah, it's cool to have some of that stuff (I have a Sparc 20 and a Indy at home, and a friend has an old Power Challenge in his garage), but outdated hardware is outdated hardware. The reason it costs only 1% of original is because IT'S PRACTICALLY WORTHLESS!

      In many technological areas, if you want/need something, find the best current deal and buy it. If you worry about what the price will be 6, 12, 18 months from now, you'll never buy anything because something better or cheaper or both is just around the corner.

    7. Re:Plannd on waiting a year by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So if you're playing a video game, waiting for some friends to come over and watch a movie, you don't mind that the health and status bars from the game remain slightly visible for the first hour or so of the movie?

      Right. Burn in, even temporary, is unacceptable in my book. Plus, plasma has life-expectancy issues.

    8. Re:Plannd on waiting a year by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      not worthless, I actually made money with my boxes writing Solaris and IRIX specific code. It was a VERY cost effective way of getting some consulting business, because these old boxes can still run the lastest OS.

  41. this sounds dodgy by highwaytohell · · Score: 1

    a cheap tv from intel? is the project codename celeron?

    1. Re:this sounds dodgy by citabjockey · · Score: 1

      Maybe Teleron

  42. is LCoS for you by HogGeek · · Score: 5, Informative

    Read this to find out...

    1. Re:is LCoS for you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Loser Church of Scientology?

      I'd hate to meet the people that answered "yes".

  43. Re:Of course by AnyNoMouse · · Score: 1
    but i doubt they'll ship by next xmas. i.e. this sounds like a significant change in display technology. if you believe them.

    LCoS is somewhat new, but it's been around and is in current projectors/TVs. The revolution that Intel promises is integrating the display and the driving electronics (HDTV decoders, processors, de-interlacers, menuing systems, etc.) into one monolithic chip to help drive down the entire system cost of an LCoS projector. The chip itself could possibly be more expensive, but the entire board with the electronics on it will be much cheaper.

    --
    -Redundancy Man strikes again!
  44. rich commentary by tr0p · · Score: 2, Funny
    "I guess I can put off buying a new TV for another year..."

    I love the wiseass remarks at the end of every news post on here. Its more fun than reading the articles ^^

    "In other news, Intel has announced a new 64-bit computing platform costing around $1000 by next Christmas..."

    I guess I can put off buying a new computer for another year..."

    --

    My only regret... is that I have... bonitis..

  45. AC != not karma whore by MikeXpop · · Score: 2, Informative

    There have been a couple trolls around slashdot about slashcode that proves that anonymous cowards have karma forwarded to their UID. Basically, what this means is that if I post this anonymously, and it gets modded -1, Flamebait, then I get the negative karma over here at ~MikeXpop.

    Therefore, the above *could* be a troll getting good karma. Moderate at your own risk.

    --
    Etiquette is etiquette. He kills his mother but he can't wear grey trousers.
  46. Re:I just read a book on this subject! tsarkon rea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/handle-generic-f orm/104-6605287-4877524?action=next-page&target=we b-search/redirect.html&url=http://goatse.cx&ws_pag e=1&ws_position=4&ws_type=google_regular
    As if this bit doesn't give it away when you :hover over the link. = badly done.

  47. On slashdot, no one knows you have a nubbin! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have a 1.9 metre COCK!

    1. Re:On slashdot, no one knows you have a nubbin! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is an enormous penis. Are you a hippo? A hungry hungry hippo?

      If you were a man, you'd have to walk around with a wheelbarrow.

  48. Problem with waiting until next year to buy a TV by Jafafa+Hots · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The problem with waiting to buy a TV is, all HDTVs made starting in 2005 will have that pesky chip in them that prevents you from recording shows that the broadcaster (or producer) doesn't want you to...

    Unless you wait ANOTHER year so you can then find out which models the hackers have figured out a way to circumvent that chip in...

    --
    This space available.
  49. No! by R-2-RO · · Score: 1

    The current high priced bulky projection TVs may be 1000 bux next year. But im sure any 7" thick lcos whatever will be high-dollar.

    --
    Thank you. Drive through. (:wq)
  50. Moore's second Law by Iowaguy · · Score: 5, Funny

    Moore's Second Law: The number of mentions of Moore's first law on slashdot will double every 18 months.

    --
    "He who laughs last, didn't get the joke."-Cap
  51. Re: Shampoo by curtoid · · Score: 1

    Ignore this idiot. He claims to invent ideas.
    You can't invent ideas. You can only get them.

    And then please keep them to yourself, unless they are GOOD ideas!

  52. Re:Forecasting (and the HDTV standard) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And it's still not a done deal standard-wise.

    Europe runs on a different HDTV standard (for transmission of OTA singles) as does most of the rest of the world. I think the only ones on the USA standard is USA, Canada and South Korea. (And according to discussions on alt.tv.tech.hdtv, South Korea is re-considering their choice.)

  53. Content by raider_red · · Score: 4, Funny

    Now, can someone please make a television that shows something worth watching?

    --
    It's good to use your head, but not as a battering ram.
    1. Re:Content by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about hooking up your PS2 or GameCube to it?

    2. Re:Content by raider_red · · Score: 1

      That's not much better.

      --
      It's good to use your head, but not as a battering ram.
    3. Re:Content by luekj · · Score: 1
      It's called TV-out on your video-card!!!#@#!

      --
      Many Thanks,

      Luke

    4. Re:Content by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Well Discovery Channel, TLC, and Sci-Fi occassionally have good programs on (any science programs they rebroadcast from the BBC are usually very good). For more entertainment, there's DVDs. And for the rest of the time, get off your ass and find something more productive to do. Get a hobby.

      The problem with TV is that the worthwhile programs aren't necessarily broadcast when you happen to have some spare time to watch them (like when eating dinner, etc.). This is what's great about TiVO, but the broadcasters are threatening to take this kind of capability away with their DRM crap. The concept of having to arrange my schedule around the broadcasters is right out of the 50's, and became obsolete in the 90's. If they take that away, then there just isn't much reason to watch TV anymore, which means there's no reason for me to spend a lot of money on a nice one.

      TV manufacturers would be smart to pay attention to what the consumers, who actually buy TVs, want instead of what the broadcasters want.

  54. $1000? yeah right by Lord_Dweomer · · Score: 1
    "This could result in high-resolution 7"-thick rear-projection TV costing around $1000 by next Christmas (not to mention cheap projectors). "

    Yeah...it'll cost $1000, and the RIAA will start offering non-DRMed music at a reasonable price in whatever format we want. I absolutely HATE how these types of articles make things sound affordable, simply by adding the qualifier "could". Yeah, it COULD also cost $1, but it'll never happen. When this new technology comes out, they will gouge us for all they can, and the early adopters will pay whatever they ask. Then, once the early adopters have all bought them, then and only then will we start seeing the price drop to a more reasonable level.

    --
    Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
  55. Re:chip availibility/inventors place in 21st centr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    TI will sell you chips and eval reference systems for most of their parts, including the reflective chips.

    It'll cost you, but you can buy a full suite of toys to experiment with DMD right here:

    http://www.prodsys.com/Discovery1100/D1100_index .a sp?

  56. WTF, thought no NYP links. by 6six6 · · Score: 1

    bah.

  57. slightly ot: intel is currently the hottest cpu by Indy1 · · Score: 1

    i know this is a joke, but with current generation products, the intel stuff runs a LOT hotter then amd stuff does.

    Ever since intel moved to the P4 line, they've had constant heat issues and the only reason its not totally out of control is that the P4 has a kick ass thermal throttle built into it that clocks down the cpu if it starts reaching certain thermal limits. You can even remove the heatsink outright, and the cpu will clock down to something absurb. Clamp the heatsink back on, and the cpu will run up to its mhz rating.

    --
    Lawyers, MBA's, RIAA? A jedi fears not these things!
  58. Who needs it... by bochawa · · Score: 1

    when I can click the ad link at the bottom of the article and "Get A 100" TV Under $20 - Convert any regular television into a big screen TV in under an hour! - www.gobigtv.com"

  59. Intriguing, but likely impossible by benwaggoner · · Score: 1

    Wow, we're decades away from having AI good enough to do that! Detecting watermarks in a rectangular video stream is hard, sure. But in the real world? That's basically asking for reliable object and feature extraction from real-world images. This is canonically one of the things humans are incredibly better at than computers. Any watermark visible enough to be detected by a moving camera, at an angle on several axes, in variable lighting, etecetera, would be so blindingly obvious it wouldn't qualify as a watermark.

    1. Re:Intriguing, but likely impossible by Ben+Hutchings · · Score: 1

      Well I wasn't entirely serious.

    2. Re:Intriguing, but likely impossible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, we're decades away from having AI good enough to do that!

      Well shit! That might be that 'future' he was talking about!

  60. A year away, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So 7" thick rear projection displays are a year away. Holographic storage is perpetually a couple years away from store shelves. They also tell us the problem of OLED lifespan will be solved in a year or two and that we'll be able to buy large OLED displays soon. Let's not forget about fuel cells...they tell us that we'll be able to power our notebooks from fuel cells in 2005. (Hell, what about HalfLife2 and DoomIII? Seems they've been "just around the corner" for a year or two now.)

    This is yet another carrot dangling just out of reach, perpetually about a year away from production...

  61. Sub-HD by benwaggoner · · Score: 1

    Yeah, and 1024x768 is sub HD. You really want 1280x720 at a minimum. And in order to get as many pixels out of the screen as are being broadcast, you really need 1920x1080.

    I've been doing a ton of HD video authoring the last couple months. It's a startling realization to discover that a 1920x1200 23" LCD is the SMALLEST monitor that can be used for this kind of stuff! And for quality grading, I'm sitting there with my nose eight inches from the screen for a couple of hours at a time, looking for minute compression artifacts.

  62. Rainbows with DLP and LCOS by adenied · · Score: 2, Informative
    One of the problems with both DLP and LCOS is that about 10% of people see rainbows when there are fast moving bright spots on the screen. If you can't see them, DLP and LCOS are pretty nice. But if you can see them (like me unfortunately) the experience is terrible.

    With DLP this has to do with the spinning color wheel that illuminates the DLP chip with the proper light color. I've read that if they could speed up the spinning by about 5x it wouldn't be noticeable. I guess the reason you see the rainbows is because the colors reach your eye at different times. Someone else can explain it better I'm sure.

    I was very excited about LCOS because there's no color wheel and the rainbow problems weren't supposed to be there. I was very disappointed when I went to look at Philips Cineos LCOS units however because I saw rainbows as well. Not as pronounced as DLP, but they were there. Not good.

    Luckily soon after that I came across Sony's Grand Wega LCD projection sets. These are beautiful and worth checking out if you want a TV now. I got the 50" one and am extremely happy with it.

    1. Re:Rainbows with DLP and LCOS by michael_cain · · Score: 1
      Luckily soon after that I came across Sony's Grand Wega LCD projection sets. These are beautiful and worth checking out if you want a TV now. I got the 50" one and am extremely happy with it.

      A couple of years ago we tried one of the Samsung "tabletop" rear-projection LCD sets. It suffered from only one serious defect -- when you moved off-axis vertically, there was a pronounced shift in the color values towards blue and drop-off in brightness. For example, if you laid on the floor in front of the couch instead of sitting on the couch, the picture was dim and blue. At the time, I believed that it was probably due to the rear-projection screen itself, which is basically a zillion nearly microscopic spherical lenses embedded in some sort of plastic sheet. Does your Sony suffer from any similar problems?

    2. Re:Rainbows with DLP and LCOS by ProtonMotiveForce · · Score: 1

      You want a 3-chip LCOS display.

      No color wheel, no rainbow effect. There might even be 3-chip DLP, but I'm not sure...

    3. Re:Rainbows with DLP and LCOS by adenied · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually this is rear projection integrated into the set itself. So you can't really move it around very easily as it's all enclosed in the 50" set. It's pre-aligned so you don't have the problems that you get with CRT projection systems and convergence, etc.

      Here's a URL for the unit to give you an idea:

      http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfini ty /eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-S tart;sid=fdaB69U8K3-B6-rddAqL4JowWtzL32jBYYk=?Cate goryName=tv_ProjectionTVs_RearProjection_43to53TVs &ProductSKU=KF50WE610&Dept=tv

      Note that's an insane URL, so if it doesn't work, search for the model KF-50WE610.

      The only problem I've found with it, which I consider minor, is a small amount of screendooring on very bright white spots near the center of the screen. So when Gandalf returns as Gandalf the White and is glowing like mad you see a bit of it for instance. This is annoying, but bright whites like that rarely happen in movies and TV so it's not enough to make me want to return the set. The other 99.99% of the time it's amazing.

    4. Re:Rainbows with DLP and LCOS by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Try this

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    5. Re:Rainbows with DLP and LCOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are 3-chip DLP systems, but I think they are only used in projectors right now, not televisions.

    6. Re:Rainbows with DLP and LCOS by Flave · · Score: 1

      The Philips Cineos LCOS *does* have a colour wheel -- it's a single-chip design. You need a 3-chip design such as the Toshiba (currently discontinued) to avoid the colour wheel and attendant rainbow effects. Currently, there are *no* 3-chip LCoS designs being marketed.

      This is why this is big news. The main reason that LCoS has failed in the marketplace is chip yield. If anyone can solve the yield problem, it's Intel. Plus they have experience producing similar chips for the communications industry. These chips failed to capture a huge market share and Intel is now adapting this technology to TVs -- a *much* bigger market.

      If Intel can bring a cheap 3-chip 1080p solution to TV manufacturers, they will own the market for years to come. TI (with their DLP chips) will need to respond with a similar price/design in quick order if they have any hope to stay in the game. If/when they do, this will become a two-supplier market and rear projection transmissive LCD designs will completely disappear. Flat panel direct view sets (plasma, LCD) will probably continue to occupy the 'high end' (i.e. expensive) market niche.

      Ain't competition grand?

  63. Remarkably Detail-Free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What I want to know is what these new chips will have for a native resolution. Will they go with the 1080-line resolution that the new $9000 Toshiba drool factories have, or will they go with the same 720-line resolution that all DLP systems seem mired in. Also, will they be single-chip or triple-chip systems.

    If they can make single-chip, 1080-line systems for cheaper than Toshiba... well, I'll be very jealous since I will probably have already paid too much for an inferior product by then, but I ain't holdin' my breath on this one.

  64. Obligatory: You can always put it off ... by El_Ge_Ex · · Score: 1

    if you keep putting it off, you'll never buy anything.

    You say that like it's a bad thing.


    "The things you own, end up owning you." :)

    -B

  65. Video windows? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2, Informative

    LCDs use a passive, reflective backing behind the polarized crystals to produce an opaque display. How about a double layer, with a color LCD over a black LCD? Then we could have LCD windows with video displays, and controllable opacity. Like Tyrell's room in _Blade Runner_, but with movies playing on the inside.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:Video windows? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Yeah, this will be great for showing not only TV and movies, but nature scenes too, providing an illusion of it being an actual window to a beautiful outdoors. This will be very useful since we wouldn't want a real window, since it would only show the ugly, industrial, polluted landscape that exists outside.

  66. big, cheap, good projector? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    I don't want to pay the premium for a "small" sales projector. I want a bright(1500+ lumens), SVGA+ projector that I can permanently mount (regardless of bigness) for monitor and movie use, for under $1000. Where is it?

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  67. Honestly, I wouldn't expect too much here by writertype · · Score: 1

    Yes, it's true that Intel is certainly among the leaders in semiconductor manufacturing, based upon their process nodes. On the other hand, Intel has shown an amazing capacity for mucking up new markets it's entered into: the i740, the Itanium, mobile CPUs for laptops, and integrated processors like the Timna. It's also illustrative to note that, over time, they usually get it right. It just won't be next year--that's my guess, anyway.

    1. Re:Honestly, I wouldn't expect too much here by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Well they've been working on the Itanium for over 10 years now and still haven't gotten it right. OTOH, AMD came out with the Opteron very quickly and it's a big success, performance-wise, compared to the Itanic.

      The only thing Intel has been really good at technically is silicon manufacturing and process technology. They would do much better if they just manufactured other companies' designs in huge volumes.

  68. I've heard a story like this every 6mo for 20 year by xtronics · · Score: 1

    Only thing - I never seem to see anything go pass vaporware mode.

  69. Flat Panel CRT by PorkNutz · · Score: 0

    I saw an article on slashdot about flat panel CRTs made using inkjet technology to print on glass. The article claimed sub $500 large screen flat panel high definition displays within 3 years. I can't find the story now. Anyone got a link?

  70. I can see it now..... by dustinmarc · · Score: 1

    Intel will release these new LCoS televisions which revolutionize the entire home entertainment and television industry, opening the doors for hundreds of other companies. In about 20 years or so one of these companies will make a comparable product and sell it cheaper. Then Slashdotters will be slamming Intel for not ever contributing anything significant.

    --


    Microsoft should hire me. I can write code that doesn't work faster than the guys they have doing it now.
    1. Re:I can see it now..... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      You have a distorted view of Intel's history. Intel gets slammed because their processors have never been technically that great, aside from having high clock speeds. Even their original PC processor, the 8088, was really crappy (in fact, the 8086 was much better, but IBM wanted the 8088 because it was a cheaper derivative). The last several decades of history are littered with far superior processor designs, like the DEC Alpha and Motorola PPC. The IBM G4 and G5 are in use now and are excellent processor designs. The problem has always been volume and marketshare: Intel got in first with the processor for the PC, which because popular because of its open architecture and subsequent cloning, and has been reaping the rewards ever since, although they've always been stuck with having to maintain backwards compatibility with their older processors.

      Frankly, I'd be very surprised if Intel revolutionized anything with any new idea of theirs, because it hasn't happened in the past with them. Besides PC processors, what new market have they ever gotten into and revolutionized? Just about everything they've tried has been a big failure: consumer products (cameras, wireless keyboards, microscopes, etc.), 64-bit processors, etc. The non-processor things they do well at, like Flash and Ethernet chips, weren't revolutionary inventions of theirs, just commodity products that were already around, and they started making and did well at since they're good at manufacturing.

  71. Profit profit profit.. by Uplore · · Score: 0

    Doesn't anyone see the opportunity here for companies to use this cheaper process to maximise profit for themselves? Cheaper production doesnt necessarily mean cheaper consumer products. Especially if there is a high demand.

    --
    I couldn't think of a sig.
  72. My 105inch HDTV by ed1park · · Score: 1

    Best PJ's by price range
    http://www.projectorcentral.com/recommended -home-t heater-projectors.htm

    Reviews of each PJ and other info
    hhtp://www.projectorcentral.com

    Great forum site
    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay. php?fo rumid=9

    I used to own a 42" Plasma (Panny EDTV 848x480 $4000). However, had I known how good projectors were nowadays, I would never would have bought it.

    Currently I own a Sanyo PLV-70 ($4,500 1366x768) with a 105" Dalite HiPower screen ($350). And it's almost like a 105" plasma!

    HDTV looks awesome. And DVD's look pretty good too. Finding Nemo is one of the best looking ones so far... But the hardware really needs Hi Definition material to shine. 480 just don't cut it at that size. Hollywood needs to get their butt in gear.

    And with a DVI input, I've connected my computer and played Unreal2, MotoGP2, Vice City, etc. at 16:9 widescreen at 1360x768. Sick!

    And you can do email, surf the web and everything with the 3D gyro mouse and keypad. Completely useable as a computer screen. :)

    I can only hope Half Life 2 and Doom 3 properly support widescreen.

    And if you ever decide to move, the PJ weighs about 20lbs. Compare that to a 90lb plasma that's fragile as hell, or a giant rear projection system.

    Bulbls are expensive, at around $400. But totally worth it as it'll last me at least a year. No plasma burn in fears.

    If I had to do it again I would get a screen no larger than 80" as everything but HDTV material looks crappy at 105". DVD's, cable TV, etc just don't have enough resolution. Can't wait for WM9 and other HD material... and maybe there will be an affordable native 1920x1080 projector by then. :)

    In the meantime, I think I'll go pickup Max Payne 2 and MS Flight Simulator and play them in HD. :)

  73. Re:Problem with waiting until next year to buy a T by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    The problem with waiting to buy a TV is, all HDTVs made starting in 2005 will have that pesky chip in them that prevents you from recording shows that the broadcaster (or producer) doesn't want you to...

    When was the last time you recorded anything from the output on your TV and not directly from the source?

  74. Wow..... by NerveGas · · Score: 1


    If they really do get the price that low, I might even buy some of their overpriced CPU's for some of my servers, just to thank them!

    ; )

    steve

    --
    Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
  75. Re:Problem with waiting until next year to buy a T by Jafafa+Hots · · Score: 1

    with broadcast HDTV, you're going to need a tuner, whether it's in the TV or in the recording device. All tuners will have this new circuit. Your TIVO will be useless.

    --
    This space available.
  76. Jeez, what a poor pick of features ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is in a lower league. The resolution is very relevant, as is the fact that Toshiba uses independent chips for the seperate colors ... only because they are relevant to image quality though. Any enthousiast would throw away the rest of what you mention for image quality in a hartbeat though. Features are irrelevant, what matters is the picture it puts on your retina.

    I seriously doubt format conversion from Toshiba is up to snuff with Philips's though, but that is mostly just relevant to PAL users.

  77. Sucks to be them by Laconian · · Score: 1

    Sucks to be one of the people that have bought into the LCD TV fad. LCD technology is much too unwieldy when stretched to TV proportions. They might be bragging to the neighbors now, but come next Xmas, they're going to be wishing they weren't so unscrupulous. /me kisses his Viewsonic CRT.

  78. Rear-projection my ass! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    'nuff said.

  79. Re:Problem with waiting until next year to buy a T by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As I understand it, this broadcast flag is going to have to be backwards compatable with older HDTV tuners. So, all the basic HDTV info will be there in a format that current tuners understand, and there will be an additional flag that isn't even seen by current tuners. With the signal segregated in this way, I imagine it will be trivial, with a little knowledge about the HDTV signal format, to strip out the broadcast flag, or flip its bits to make say "record all you want" instead of "copyrighted - don't record." All you'll need is a little box between your cable line and your tuner, with a FPGA with the correct logic on it, and you're done.

  80. Markoff's an excellent writer by billstewart · · Score: 1

    Yes, the Mitnick/Shimomura thing was an ethical and professional atrocity. But except for that, John Markoff has been a consistently excellent writer - he actually understands technology, and has some reasonable clues about what the stuff means and what's important, and can do competent explanations to the public. He's a real contrast to a lot of the "technical" press, which too often is just regurgitating press releases.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  81. Re:chip availibility/inventors place in 21st centr by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

    we have reached an age where nobody works on their own cars anymore or people don't build as much things anymore (we just buy stuff)

    What are you talking about? I do all my own car work, and there's a fairly large subculture of people who do the same, judging by what I read on a lot of automotive enthusiast sites I frequent. A lot of less-dedicated people don't work on their cars anymore because they've become lazy and don't want to learn anything new.

  82. Re:chip availibility/inventors place in 21st centr by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

    Another point I forgot to mention: look at all the auto parts stores all over: Checker, Pep Boys, Advance, Auto Zone, etc. These places wouldn't be around, and placing commercials on TV, if there weren't plenty of non-mechanics working on their own cars.