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Kazaa Ruled Legal in The Netherlands
DreamerFi writes "Developers of Kazaa cannot be held liable for the way people use their software, the Dutch Supreme Court has ruled. The dutch version of the RIAA, BUMA Stemra is now expected to start lawsuits against individuals, following the american lead, according to dutch news channels."
Well d-uh.
Any successful attempt at making code illegal will just turn it into samizdat and speed the adoption of encrypted & anonymous P2P apps (ala FreeNet). It's too bad the recording industry doesn't put as much effort into signing new and original bands as they do fighting to protect their antiquated business model.
Yes, I buy CDs but nothing you'd see on a Top 40 chart, will that make me a criminal one day?
Trolling is a art,
So why would it work there?
MABASPLOOM!
Nuff said.
Because of all this shit over music I have stoped buying. I use to try out stuff on the old napster (tells you how long ago that was) and if I liked I would get the CD, but now that the RIAA (and co.) has made it clear they don't want my busness, I have stoped, stoped listening and stoped buying. And the radio music stations have way to many comercials to be enjoyable. I have moved on to talk radio, and I have to say I think I enjoy talk radio more, and there seams to be far less comercials then music radio. Good by music, hello talk.
Ah, it's refreshing to see some sanity in the courts, even if it is on another continent. If the courts blame kazaa for what its users do, it would logically follow that we'd have to blame gun manufacturers for the actions of bank robbers, blame car manufacturers for the crimes of people involved in hit-and-run accidents, and blame alcohol manufacturers for the stupid things drunk people do.
WARNING: If accidentally read, induce vomiting.
I use Kazaa to find the music that the recording industry refuses to sell online OR in CD stores. If they are so concerned about losing revenue, why don't they just sell the music?
The dutch version of the RIAA, BUMA Stemra is now expected to start lawsuits against individuals, following the american lead
It's about time some judge realizes that P2P is perfectly legal. If there is illegal activity going on (piracy), then it is up to the authorities/owners to find out who the perps are, and do what they feel is necessary.
Hopefully, if these RIAA-led anti-piracy campaigns are successful, it will be more ammo against the DMCA. After all, why would that unconstitutional law be necessary if they have a more effective means of enforcing their copyrights?
What isn't legal in the Netherlands?
My blog | My webcomic | My other webcomic
Let's say I use Quickbooks to bookkeep an illegal betting service at my school. Is someone going to sue Quicken Software (or whoever the mfg is) for my use of their software. NO! If anythingthey should allow programmers and designers to learn from the program and develop new ideas on future software. The fact the KaZaa had to be established on the Island of Vanuatu, where corporate laws are far different form US or other westernized economies is ridiculous! Let business flourish! As Adam Sith would say: "laissez faire!"
[Please sign here]
Since the ARTISTS that produce the music get a small share of the sales, I'm beginning to think that the RIAA and its like are just a means to keep lawyers employed. Wait....was that a news flash or did everybody else already know that?
You mean 12-year-old girls? This isn't going to help either, the only way to solve the p2p piracy thing is to provide better ways for the customers to get music without them feeling robbed, buying a CD with 1 good song, and 10 fillers doesn't make the customer feel right at all, so customers use p2p instead.
Napster and iTunes are good steps on the way, lots of people are buying music through them instead of the old, above mensioned ways.
The IT section color scheme sucks.
So kudos to the court, who are dead right. Kazaa should not be a special case and made illegal, just like video recorders, DVD burners, CD burners, cassette recorders, MP3 player/recorders, codecs, etc etc. The music industry reply is that the files could easily be filtered to stop copyrighted material from being shared. I beg to know how they propose to find out from an MP3 file whether it is copyrighted; the "copyright" bit in the files is removeable so that's not a solution is it?
Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
We (the dutch) pay an extra tax (something like 50 cents) on each blank CD, and up to 1.50 on blank dvd's.... It really gets my heartrate going when I think about that.
McFact 1: McD's sold many millions of cups of this same hot coffee, and had only 700 burn complaints. Making the reasonable assumption that most of those millions of cups were drank, it was clearly quite safe.
McFact 2: The customers preferred the coffee hot. After the frivolous suit forced them to lower the temperature, cold coffee complaints soared.
McFact 3: So what if she asked for money at first and was refused. McDonald's owned her nothing, as nothing was their fault.
Furthermore, this decision only affects distribution from The Netherlands. The advocat general briefly touches US, UK and German law, but does not draw any conclusions from this.
So, also regarding the recent decisions in California, Kazaa will probably live as a programme.
However, the BUMA/STEMRA (dutch equivalents of the US RIAA) will probably start now with lawsuits to individual end-users who offer large amounts of files on-line. A lot of case law with respect to tort by offering infriningement illegal information on-line is already available, so the real ground battle can start. Bring in the grunts (copyright lawyers, that is).
They blatently prodice a place/means for people to illegally share copyrighted material. this is its major purpose, and the kazaa developers know that.
If you know about a crime, and you don't do anything about it (or at least try to) you are breaking the law in many places. The fact that Kazaa has not ever tried to limit the music swapping is proof that they should be found guilty of at least neglegence.
Just because you provide a warhouse where people can trade goods, if the goods are mostly stolen property, and you know that, you are in deep shit.
I'm posting AC because this will likely get modded down, but this is the way it is people.
It occurs to me, that while suing individuals is far more cumbersome than just getting the billion dollar check from Kazaa, getting good at collecting from individuals is better business in the long run since there are so many of them.
I mean, done right, this could be an endless source of money for Kazaa.
All interpreted languages are abstractions over Lisp
A couple of months or so, Buma/Stemra's spokesman had a media interview, in which he said that they would not be suing consumers until there was a good commercial music download option for consumers in the Netherlands. Apparently, at that time they felt (correctly) that the country would be in an uproar if they started suing consumers over trading.
So if they started suing now, that would be in direct contradiction of their earlier statements (and it would be extremely unpopular, I could even see it leading to a law that makes music sharing over the Internet explicitly legal). In current law, downloading is legal, uploading is not.
And anyway, all they could get in a lawsuit is an order for the person to stop sharing, I think, as long as there's no commercial piracy involved.
I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
so if i understand correctly, the avaerage Dutch citizen will be bothered by hc l33cher d00dz spending their holidays in the netherlands, in addition to the people from all over europe who visit amsterdam for buying dope, getting an abortion or looking at bestiality?
..strangeloop.
She received third degree burns over more than 5% of her body, simply because McDs stored the coffee at a temperature far higher than was necessary. And they knew it was dangerously high.
--
This sig is inoffensive.
" far fewer problems with racism, pornography etc"
You mention those in the same breath. Pornography is not as much of a problem in Europe because it is accepted. I guess the same is true of racism.
France has in recent years has had massive anti-semitic rallies. "Oh. But it is not racism. Europe just recognizes the dangers of letting Jews get too much power."
"A far cry from the uptight US"
Yes. We do see racism as a problem, not a sign of a health open society.
When the VCR came out, the cinematography industry cried out that they would be destroyed. When the TV came out, the redio stations said that this would be their end. When the computers began, people said that paper would stop being used. Nonsese. Istead of trying to defeat the tide, musical industry should embrace mp3 and find a new bussines model. And I think they will, eventually, but not until they squeez the last dollar from this model.
- no sig.
I wish back in high school that I could have known that, when I was buying records, I was providing the bands I liked with almost no financial support. More than 95% of my purchase price was going straight to one of the most corrupt industries on the planet.
I'm not at all surprised to hear that the Netherlands' version of the RIAA is now going after individual users. The industry has clearly decided that the threat of litigation is about the only thing that's going to keep people buying CD's.
Except for one tiny thing. In the process of trying to scare people, they've made people like me their lifelong enemies. Now, where music is concerned, I have only two ambitions: one is to give the artists I like as much support as possible. And the other is to not give another penny of my money to RIAA labels. Quite simply, the RIAA has a completely different vision of the future than that of music lovers. They want to keep themselves as the middlemen in perpetuity, despite the fact that technology has the potential for making major labels irrelevant.
That's one reason why, as much as I love the iTunes radio store, I would never purchase an album from there that was produced by an RIAA affiliated label.
What people disgusted by RIAA actions need to do is to work hard to educate the public about why the industry does not deserve our support. Music lovers ought to be doing everything possible to starve out the RIAA affiliated labels, and to channel as much of their entertainment dollar directly to artists. And we should especially support artists who are wise enough to help us in this task -- artists who sign with magnatune, or who have a website set up so that they keep the bulk of every purchasing dollar.
I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?
Hey, someone know some free Netherland proxies??
:D
Would love to use them and br..."legal"
--Free the Cuban people, make it a capitalist society, and end the embargo.
However, I don't see how this ruling changes anything. It doesn't matter what is legal where, because people will always find a way to swap files. There are a million peer-to-peer apps, there's IRC, there's UseNet... I cannot see how any ruling in any country is really going to change the way things are, because I cannot see how any nation can actually enforce that ruling. Perhaps that's one of the reasons they didn't rule against it in the Netherlands. How do you stop a country from swapping files? Even the RIAA with its police powers isn't able to do that here.
I'd like to believe that more workable business models will evolve that can exist peacefully with file swapping, but I guess only time will tell.
"To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking
"She received third degree burns over more than 5% of her body"
Yet, 99.99% were able to consume this coffee, of the same temperature, without this problem. Maybe they didn't spill it on their genitals!
"simply because McDs stored the coffee at a temperature far higher than was necessary. And they knew it was dangerously high"
No, it was necessary (the customers prefer it this way), and not dangerous. Millions of cups drank, no problem.
Yes, it is dangerous if you do something stupid with it, but so is everything. Did you know you can suffocate on those paper McDonald's napkins if you stuff them down your throat and nostrils? Just like you can get burns from pouring hot coffee on your 'nads.
The problem with these frivolous suits is that Person A is made to pay for the actions/guilt of Person B.
Although I don't think the RIAA will be able to make Kazaa (etc.) liable for the downloading (hopefully), it's probably only a matter of time before the downloaders themselves start suing: "They made it easy for me! It's not my fault! Personal responsibility, what's that?"
When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.
Mark Twain
I always think of file sharing as some type of medical drug. Doctors tell you one day this great for you (IE eggs) and then the next day they have to much this or that. I think of File sharing the same way because they took Napster down and then they nut it back up it must not be half bad for you
Ok so it is an extreme example but that coffee was hot enough to be used as a weapon
So is anything. You can kill with those sugar packs.
" It was at least 20 degrees hotter than every other Fast food coffee"
The customers preferred it this way.
"The executives knew about the coffee just like Ford knew about the tires. Just because it is not dangerous to everyone doesn't mean it isn't dangerous."
Everyone knew about it. It was "not dangerous" to almost everyone, and was only dangerous if you did something really stupid with it.
This is a great textbook case for the reason for tort reform: so cases like the McD's case never make it to court, and those who attempt to file frivolous lawsuits get jailed.
Customers preferred firestone tires and complaines when they were recalled
This is a very poor analogy. Customer surveys show that the customers preferred the hot coffee McD's used to serve over the colder stuff they serve now. The "hotness" is a desired quality. In contrast, "tires failing" is an actual defect, not a desired quality.
There are two things I can't stand in this world -- intolerance of other people's cultures, and the Dutch!
Just imagine if, during the 1990s, the state of New Mexico embarked on a program of actual extermination of its Hispanic population. And if massive rallies of hundreds of thousands of people about how evil Jews were were an occasional occurance in New York.
Yet, these sort of things happen in Europe, and recently too. Racism on a much larger more vicious scale than the U.S. has seen in decades.
Yeees. He is an evasive little guy. (*Smith)
[Please sign here]
This is obviously off topic, but I need help...
As a retail store owner of a punk rock music shop, I really want to open a section (and eventually make it my only section) of "Non RIAA Punk Rock music." It should be bands of national scale, doesn't have to be popular bands, and definitely shouldn't be radio or MTV bands.
Does anyone have a link or knowledge of which labels are not RIAA linked? The distributors have no idea...
your sig: does that imply that I shouldn't think backwards?
Hammer of Truth
Heavy taxation is the best thing for helping the free market or the Austrian-libertarian/anarchocapitalist idealism. When you tax an item, overregulate it, or even criminalize the use of said item, you create a black market. The black market has no taxes, and is generally cheaper to use than the white market -- in some cases its the only way to get said item or service.
When an item is taxed, it forces people to pay more. If people think they are paying too much, they will find a way around it.
I say lets raise all taxes on every item 100%. Then find your way around it. I know people in Canada who find numerous ways around the CD tax, and while its illegal and I don't recommend breaking local laws or avoiding taxes, its good to see that taxes almost always have negative effects on production and sales.
And you haven't remembered a basic lesson from growing up: Take responsibility for your own actions People who hurt themselves and blame others who are not to blame at all forget this basic lesson. However, greed can blind them.
(Also, crying and running away when the facts are presented to you in an argument is not very mature either)
will that make me a criminal one day?
grub
are you o.k.? So
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are you o.k.? Are you o.k.
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are you o.k.? So
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are you o.k.? Are you o.k.
grub?
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are you o.k.? So
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are you o.k.? Are you o.k.
grub?
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are you o.k.? Are you o.k.
grub?
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are you o.k.
will you tell us that you're o.k.?
You've been a
you've been a smooth criminal.
Your gross mischaractarization (and lies) concerning Israel's defense against the countries that invade it just shows your antisemitism. Hatred of the Israeli people is not necessarily antisemitism, but it usually is. (if you hate Israelis, chances are you hate Jews outright)
You are also forgetting that France's "We Hate the Jews" rallies were happily attended by actual neo-Nazis, and much of the rhetoric was against Jews as a whole (using age-old stereotypes) not just Israelis.
Craftsman Tools can not be held liable when people drive around town throwing hammers at innocent bystanders. The judge was quoted as saying "just because a tool can be used for something illegal, doesn't mean it encourages illegal activity and should be held liable for such activity."
She is equally annoying but for different reasons.
No, there have been no anti-semitic (sic) rallies in France. You are talking shit
Yes, they have occured in the past few years.
No, you have racism as a problem - black ghettos, far shorter life expectancy, huge numbers of black people in prison. Europe just does not have those problems.
So, Serbia's attempted extermination of Kosovars and Bosnians is not a "problem". I guess they deserve it, just like the Jews did in the 1940s.
She spilled it in her crotch.
How did it happen?
At last, an admission that it was all due to her own action. Agreement with an actual McFact.
"Please save us some time and handcuff yourself before we get there."
The East Point Georgia Police department has made arresting yourself easy with thier Citizen's self arrest form.
All you pirates head here to turn yourself in
Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est
I was really sick and tired of buying a CD and having to skip most "non-advertised" songs. What da hell?! i don't listen to radio much either, mostly in the car, but the commercials HAVE gotten annoying.
What I have found more enjoyable is actually internet radio. there seems to be plenty of choices, and non-stop supply of music. There are less and less free stations now, but even if you pay $10 or so per month and have a month of music to enjoy it still beats buying 4 cds and getting sick of them in a week.
I also can't wait to see how the situation develops with sirius and xm radio. they sound promising. my friend has xm, very happy with it. but i wonder - how long would it take for it to also become bloated with commercials as well? hey, once enough people listen to it, it'll be extremely tempting for the stations to go the ad route...
The facts on the case:
- the coffee was quite safe. How else could 99.99% of the drinkers consume it with no problem?
- she spilled it herself. McDonald's did not.
No amount of lying attorneys can change the reality of it, even if they can change the courtroom outcome.
This just in:
From The Associated Press:
Dec 19, 10:45 AM EST
Record Industry May Not Subpoena Providers
By TED BRIDIS
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) -- A federal appeals court on Friday rejected efforts by the recording industry to compel the nation's Internet providers to identify subscribers accused of illegally distributing music online.
In a substantial setback for the industry's controversial anti-piracy campaign, the three-judge panel from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia overturned a ruling by the trial judge to enforce a copyright subpoena.
U.S. District Judge John D. Bates had approved use of the subpoenas, forcing Verizon Communications Inc. to turn over names and addresses for at least four Internet subscribers. Since then, Verizon has identified dozens of its other subscribers to music industry lawyers.
The appeals court said one of the arguments by the Recording Industry Association of America "borders upon the silly," rejecting the trade group's claims that Verizon was responsible for downloaded music because such data files traverse its network.
Verizon had challenged the constitutionality of the subpoenas under the 1998 Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
The law, passed years before downloading music over peer-to-peer Internet services became popular, compels Internet providers to turn over the names of suspected pirates upon subpoena from any U.S. District Court clerk's office. A judge's signature is not required. Critics contend judges ought to be more directly involved.
Verizon had argued at its trial that Internet providers should only be compelled to respond to such subpoenas when pirated music is stored on computers that providers directly control, such as a Web site, rather than on a subscriber's personal computer.
In his ruling, the trial judge wrote that Verizon's interpretation "makes little sense from a policy standpoint," and warned that it "would create a huge loophole in Congress' effort to prevent copyright infringement on the Internet."
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Was it created within the last 70something years?
If the answer to that question is "yes" then there is a very good chance that the file is copyrighted. A creator has a copyright on his/her creation the moment it is created, whether he/she chooses to register the copyright or not (though registering the copyright makes it easier to defend against infringement). That copyright lasts until the government says it expires (a period that is WAY too long in my opinion), or until the creator decides to put his/her creation into the public domain, whichever comes first.
I'm willing to bet almost everything out on all of the P2P networks is copyrighted. It is probably safest to assume that it is. So, now it is up to you the user to see if you are allowed to make use of the probably copyrighted content by doing some research on the creator to find out if he/she has granted a license (such as a Creative Commons License) for others to freely copy the work or perhaps has entered the creation into the public domain. If this is the case, then please, by all means, download the file. If not, then I recommend leaving it alone and certainly not distributing it unless you want to face a case of copyright infringement.
So, instead of having the **AA or whatever organization police you, how about policing yourself a little bit? Do some research and find out if you actually do have the right to copy the material. Contact the creator, ask for permission, look at their homepage, etc.
Disclaimer: I do NOT agree with the actions of the **AA and similar organizations, I think that the term for copyright is WAY too long (in fact, I am giving my own creations, mostly photographs, a maximum 20 year limit before I put them in the public domain), I think the laws need to be changed, and I think that the penalties for copyright infringement are WAY too severe. Also, use of the word "you" above is not necessarily referring to the parent poster, but to anyone that it applies to. No offense intended. Also also, at least, this is how I interpret copyright law...please please please correct me if I am wrong.
I am a content creator and I respect the copyrights of others just as I hope they respect my copyrights. If I want to give something away for free, then feel free to use it however you like, but if I choose to restrict the use of my creations then please respect that, and if you don't like it, create your own.
Just my humble opinion of course, however, it seems that many people think that "copyrighted" means "owned by the **AA/etc" when it means "owned by whoever created it for a limited time before being returned to the public domain" (at least, in my understanding...again, please correct me if I have misinterpreted "copyright")
cheers. :-)
"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
"Adam Sith" is apparently a character from the Knights of the Old Republic game from Lucas Arts. I hadn't heard this quote, though.
Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Gates M'dna wgah'nagl fhtagn.
If you are keen to read the Dutch court ruling or the Dutch News Channel, you can use World Lingo Translator.
Today's vices may be tomorrow's virtues.
Well, the plan on letting people who have just smuggled up to 3 Kg of white powder go without a warrant was nothing but a 'luchtballon' (en: hot-air balloon) 'let up' by the clueless minister Donner of the dutch ministry of justice.
He got flamed so bad, that this ridiculous plan will never see the light of day.
Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
"Because many of these issues are fundamental questions that should be answered by parliament."
Like fundamental in WMD?
Please leave politics out of fundamental questions,
they lack morale.
Yes, thats why all the "tourist" come over here.
So if I setup a remote shell & proxy in that country, the *IAA can't catch me.
Cool
When you mention this frivilous lawsuit, the lawyer wannabees and shill mouthpieces come out of their holes to defend the law that somehow was to blame.
I had McDonalds coffee the other day. Its so damned cold that I think my bath water is hotter than that. Ridiculous. McDonalds can't serve hot coffee just because a few idiots are clumsy and have tender skin. A combination that gives lawyers a hard-on.
I hope all of you lawyers just fucking die.
"It was at least 20 degrees hotter than every other Fast food coffee."
This is false. Coffee at all restaurants is routinely served at 185 degrees. The lady had tender skin. And she put coffee between her legs.
Doesn't take a genius to figure out what happens next.
Sorry. Mods, feel free to mod that one into oblivion.
P.S. even more off-topic, is anyone else getting a lot of "500 Internal Server Error" messages from yro.slashdot.org?
"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
"The final dollar amount was actually settled out of court and not made public."
I would hope that as part of the settlement her descendents were killed to avoid this particular DNA from spreading its stupidity to anyone else.
We can leave her be because she's too old to breed.
(Temporary?) Victory over the evil RIAA!
A great day for justice, and i hope other European countries take note (especially my mine - UK).
Does anyone else think "The right to bare arms" was actually ment to include all arms - such as arms against corporate control - i.e software & hardware tools and filesharing apps to allow freedom of information and speech and the ability to reverse engineer freely? The whole point to that right was to prevent a dictatorship, or a big-brother state, and those tools are as vital as guns in that respect.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
... individuals uploading illegal content are often anonymous. BUMA Stemra is not part of the justice department, and usually cannot get ISPs to turn over the personal data of user xyz at IP-address a.b.c.d.
Actually, it's against the law for ISPs to do that. Privacy...
This is *not* a troll.
A moderator has an agenda here. This blatant censorship needs to be stopped.
If you don't agree, then reply. If you can't reply and you simply mod down something you don't like, you are showing your inability to make an argument and the weakness of your position.
Kazaa, and other truly decentralised p2p software clients have no control over what what files pass through the network.
Unlike napster 1, who provided the central server for passing on who was sharing what, kazaa have NO ability to tell what is being shared.
Napster were the warehouse owners; kazaa are more like warehouse builders, who then sell them on to other people.
They don't know what infringements are being made, and don't want to. They join the long list of people who provide a tool with legitimate and illegitmate uses, like lockpick makers, warehouse builders, or video players with a record button.
And if you argue that p2p has no legitimate uses, I point you to bittorrent, that is regularly used to distribute large files. I also use emule to grab game demos or patches, both legal downloads.
Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
Bittorrent does not advocate sharing music/movies, does not make money, and does not have a built in media player.
My main point in all this is that Kazaa advocates the illegal activity, and makes a profit from it. They are in fact a corporation. If they were a free or open source p2p program, I would agree completely, but they are making profit, and that is where they become liable.
I like the Virtual Sex vids. It's the closest most of us will ever get :(
So, what exactly is the difference between Kazaa, and the others, ie Napster?
How come Kazaa always seems to get away with what they're doing?
Do they have a different architecture or what?
Will code a sig generator for food
Since when do they have something that's illegal in the Netherlands :p.
Of course this is goverment not the courts who laid that down and like in the US those two are supposed to be seperate. Also like the US it is hardly unheard of for the courts to shoot down the goverment.
So I wouldn't say it is to different from the US. Not the same but not to different either. Think differences between say california texas and new york rather then say US vs Cuba.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
"THERE IS NO SUCH PLACE AS EUROPE"
Ignoring a place won't make it go away. I suggest Geography 101.
Well, can I let you into a secret - the US has a long and proud tradition of antisemitism too. Many businesses, clubs and universities excluded Jews or restricted their numbers well into the late 1930s.
Why certainly, but it never got as far as snuffing out millions (or even hundreds) of Jews as it did in Europe.
Whereas most European countries have tried to face up to and come to terms with their anti-semitic past
France hasn't faced up to its collaborative "Vichy" past (they say there was only Resistance), or its massive modern-day "We Hate the Jews" rallies.
As a result, when Jews are attacked in France, the US immediately blames it on inherent European anti-semitism for which all Europeans should feel ashamed
No, the French should feel ashamed, but not the Dutch or others in non-antisemitic countries.
any anti-semitic activity in Europe is a sympton of some continental malaise. American anti-semitism, though, is some kind of aberration rather than a reflection of the national character
It is a symptom of a malaise. American anti-semitism exists, of course, but it has never approached the level of holocausts, pogroms, or even the modern day quasi-Nazi French rallies.
In fact, during the 20th century, Jews fled to America because of the widespread antisemitism all over Europe at different times. They naturally found Ford with his "I will write a nasty book, but employ you and still sell you a car" antisemitism to be preferable to the "We kill all of you!" of Europe.
Disliking Israel is based on one of two things:
you hate Jews to begin with.
You are totally unaware of the facts of the situation (such as the fact that Israel was forced to occupy the Territories after being attacked from them many times, and is forced to stay as long as terrorist armies operate in them).
If Japan, after WW2, had refused to surrender, and its government still had multiple branches of its military the U.S., I'm sure the U.S. would still occupy Japan.
What is needed is for Israel to completely defeat the "Palestinian" military, and for the "Palestinian" military to totally cease aggression (like Japan had to do). Then Israel can finally pull out of the territories.
George: "Where is The Netherlands"?
Jerry: "It's a country next to Belgium"
George: "And what is Holland?"
Jerry: "It's the same country"
George: "Then who are the Dutch?!?"
You are also forgetting that France's "We Hate the Jews" rallies... ...didn't take place.
Yes, they did. In recent years. Do you want dates? French anti-semitism is also shown in the Chirac government going to great lengths to support and strengthen Saddam Hussein (including, of course, resisting efforts to stop Saddam's aggression). Saddam was attacking Israel by funding terrorism there, and that is OK with the French people, who by and large support Saddam Hussein and were rather resistant to stopping him.
Dutch allow legal sex acts with animals, so I think this is not so unusual.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
get burned the coffee cup must have been shoved up her.... well.. inserted in... oh... forget it
She's really quite popular at her local "Starbucks"
just because you pay for it doesn't mean you don't get the ads! Am I the only one who's just amazed at the amount of ads we are force-fed before the movie starts in a movie theater? I was fine with previews of movies to come (after all, it's interesting and relevant), but some on! right now if the movie starts at 5, that means that at 5 there is a 20 minute block of commercials, and the actual movie starts at 5:20. and if I see a shaving cream commercial at 5:10 (when i really should be watching a movie), I really wonder what I'm paying for there.
Hey, what about magazines? every other page is a huge ad for something in most of the magazines out there. Therefore paid-for doesn't really imply "ad-free", and that's why i think we'll soon see services such as XM populated with ads as well
Tapes released by the National Archives show the extent of Nixon's anti-semitism ("generally speaking you can't trust the bastards"..."most Jews are disloyal").
This is quite interesting. There was no evidence of Nixon's antisemitism during his life (as he treated Jews the same as any others, and had many Jewish friends and advisors).
However, thanks to this, we now have Nixon as an example of how antisemitism in the US is as bad as it has been in Europe (where French citizens quite happily turned in Jewish neighbors to their new Nazi overlords).
It is all the same, right?
When Louis Farrakhan blames the holocaust on the Jews, though, America's soul remains spotless.
Show me one single Jewish person who has been killed (or even assaulted) as a result of Farrakhan's adolf-immitations. Now, come up with an example of a Jewish person being killed during the 20th century in Europe, just for being Jewish. Now, count them all up, on both sides.
Are the numbers the same?
Which is more unhealthy, to deny that a problem exists, or to admit it and set about finding a solution?
Funny you should mention the word "deny", as you are engaging in a variation of holocaust denial.
I know your answer before you say it: "Europe had Hitler. America has Pat Buchanan. This means America is just as bad!"
Nixon was threatened with certain impeachment for his crimes. Unlike a certain other President, he did the honorable thing and resign in the face of this threat, rather than disgrace his office even further and waste his country's time on the matter.
Nixon had a sense of shame that not all Presidents have had.
The people who try to sue companies or individuals to get them to pay for something that is not the company/individual's fault at all should be jailed. This would discourage things like the McDonald's suit.
Wrong again. McDonalds had been sued successfully over 700 times prior to her suit. I don't give a shit about what percentage of customers that is, after 5 people getting third degree burns it's time to rethink your policy.
If this is true, then it's time to have tort reform so those 700 lawsuits would have never happened. The coffee was clearly safe. If it was dangerous, you'd have everyone burn themself with it.... instead, no-one (statistically) burned themself with it.
Yes, we need tort reform: if you pour coffee on yourself, it is your own fault.
She asked for $20,000 for medical bills. She sued them to make them acknowledge and offered to settle
Since it was utterly frivolous (she spilled hot coffee on HERSELF), she should never have asked in the first place. It is a sign that something is wrong in the first place that her greed could get this far.
Why do people have such a difficult time accepting that even though it's common sense to not spill on yourself, it should be even more common sense to not serve food so hot it could put you in the hospital for over a week (8 days in her case)
You can gouge an eye out with a McDonald's plastic fork. How dare they sell them. How DARE they!
Look at who put up the "facts" in law and help: it is one of those notorious ambulance chasers that enriches itself from frivolous lawsuits. Check out the home page of www.lawandfacts.com
They get rich lying in court so someone with deep pockets who is not responsible at all pays.
However, if you read between the lines of their phony lawyerese, the actual facts still stand out: it is all her own fault.
I'm against frivolous lawsuits as much as the next person,
no, you are not. You are going to great lengths to twist things to support this excellent example of a lawsuit with no merit.
So by your reasoning, it would be perfectly acceptable for toy manufacturers to infuse some rare disease into their products that is non-contagious to 99.9% of the populous
This is another bad analogy. To make it more accurate, change it so this "rare disease" actually makes almost all people more healthy (to correspond to the customers preferring the nice hot coffee).
The toy manufacturer then labels the coffee mentioning this disease, so everyone knows it is there and acts accordingly.
"A McD manager *testified* that the coffee was unfit for consumption"
This is interesting. Clearly, the McD manager lied. He must have been flustered by the lawyers into this. I wonder if this is an accurate quote? If his statement were true, McDonald's would have never sold any coffee. Instead, since it was fit for human consumption, they sold a LOT of it.
I guarantee no one at this location was "consuming it with no problems." It was heated to 180+ degrees F!
That is a lie, actually. They sold thousands and thousands of cups. Those who bought them tended to CONSUME them, not throw them away.
The issue isn't about the spill at all.
Yes it is. It is the woman's own action.
As a business owner, you can't place thousands of poisoned-tipped spikes around your facility, then deny blame if someone trips and falls, claiming "She fell herself, we didn't push her."
Another bad analogy. The coffee was preferred hot.
But this was just a case where business came before responsibility
That is a good description of the law firm, but not McDonald's.
A levy is a kind of tax. A tariff is another kind of tax.
Typically, it is that which is collected by the government through the process of taxation. (Looking at the definitions, of course)
She had the coffee in her lap while sitting in the passenger seat of a stopped car and was trying to open the top to add cream and sugar.
And that is when she decided to spill hot coffee on her crotch. She did it. McDonald's did not sell leaping coffee, or even a faulty leaking cup. She endevored to cause the incident all by herself. Case closed.
Lady, give McDonald's back your ill-gotten gains. Also, apologize to all the customers who now have to drink cold coffee. Be real nice, and buy them all a cup. Hot.
Just be careful with it. Realize that if you spill it, YOU spilt it and no other. Trying to get rich off your own clumsiness as she did is immoral, irresponsible, destroys the justice system, and really amounts to theft.
"Lawyers today committed purjury in the courtroom and held up McDonald's and got away with a large and undisclosed amount of cash."
There is nothing deluded about the parent poster. He just has an attitude of personal responsibility.
It was 185-degree liquid. Yes, McDonald's sold this. Millions took it and....drank it.
Let us skip back a couple of centuries to the Bostom Tea Party
British official: "What are you doing?"
Yankee: "You taxed our tea! We're throwing it into the harbor!"
British official: "You have been misformed"
Yankee: "Tell me, redcoat!"
British official: "You see, the tea is not being taxed. It is being levied."
Yankee: "What is the difference?"
British official: "With a tax, the government compels you to give over your property under threat of imprisonment or violence. With a levy, the government forces you to give over your property under threat of imprisonment or violence. By the way, there is also something called a tariff. With a tariff, the government requires you to give over your property under threat of imprisonment or violence."
Yankee: "Wow! I did not know!"
Yankee, to angry crowd: "Call the revolution off, boys! There is no tea tax!"
Yankee crowd: "Hooray! Hooray!"
How about I adjust the water heater at my local wal-mart to dispense 200 degree water out of the hot water faucents in the bathrooms?
I see you are making the water hotter and hotter, in 5 degree instruments, in a failed attempt to support frivolous lawsuits.
Even if I accept this, YOU FAILED! Go to Wal-Mart right now. Make a cup of coffee with their tap water (ignore the germs for the sake of argument). Would you drink this coffee? Of course not. You would call it cold. Everyone would. The analogy fails because coffee temperature is hotter than hand-washing temperature.
What if McDonalds served you a BURGER that burned your lips "off"?
Another silly analogy that has nothing to do with anything. You might try again.
Read the facts about the case. If they serve coffee 20 degrees hotter than everyone else, that is a big problem
I did. It is not a problem if the customers prefer it this way, and they did.
The analogy only fits if you choose to rub the plate in your crotch.
Otherwise, it is another bad analogy:
McD Coffee: Everyone* can drink it without trouble (and that is a normal use of coffee)
Plate: Do something normal with it (like lean over it), and you are the Human Torch.
You are comparing something very safe (the coffee) with something that is not.
"I would agree that the whole "sue fast food retailers because I'm fat" lawsuits are without merit, as are most recent tobacco lawsuits, but not this particular case."
This particular case is just as meritless: something does something to THEMSELF with a McDonald's product that is dangerous only if abused.
McGuyver could probably kill a man with a couple of ice cubes from their drink dispenser. I think we should make McDonalds get rid of them too.
One important fact is that the McDonald's coffee, if it ever was "too hot", is still "too hot". You will STILL get 3rd degree burns if you put it in your crotch. It just takes a little longer to do it. Anything is dangerous if you choose to do something stupid with it.
The point, always ignored, is that if you choose to do something stupid it is your own fault.
Kazaa advocates the illegal activity
No, they actually don't. Someone else has already posted Sharman's position, and they most definitely DO NOT advicate illegal activity.
Then I can smoke really good inexpensive pot and fileshare all I want. Moreover I wouldn't have to live in this nutso country (USA) as it dumbs-down its populus and careens into a fear-drive death-spiral. Woohoo!
-- thinkyhead software and media
" (USA) as it dumbs-down its populus and careens into a fear-drive death-spiral."
You've just described the Howard Dean campaign strategy.
I have never bought music, and probably never will, it has never interested me. I download an mp3 every once in a blue moon but I listen to it a few times and then it gets filed away and I never hear it again...
Plus, when was the last time anyone got RIAA sponsored music off of kazaa that was actually what they wanted?
Usually it's a blank file, or only the first few seconds, or entirely mislabeled, just a waste of bandwidth...
If you live at the border, be sure to buy them in Germany. Very cheap if you know a place. I prefer small, local stores -- however i guess mediamarkt.de would do.
She spilled coffee on herself and it was McDonalds fault? Huh?
The US of A is doomed because of people like you.
I cna't belive some of you are defending KaZaA. When the code was designed it was obviously for piracy, because that is the only reason it is a popular as it is, and they know it. How stupid do they think we are claiming they had no idea it would be used for this. .... Wait a seccond you guys all end up in this class.
This is also besides the point that KaZaA is a distributor of spyware and annoying-ware, while the RIAA is just trying to protect their investments.
So what happens... all the computers of the world endup full of crap. Companies loose money and so need to make cuts.
In the case of the music industry; music begins to suck as the execs take less chances on non-produced groups.
In the case fo the movie industry; we see less inteligent plots and more distorted rereleases with unnecesary love interests and violence just to tap into every possible audiance.
In the case of software, your jobs get outsourced and for some poetic justice you have brought about your own demise. Unfortunatly allot of others suffer along side of you.
I belive people who are involved in this illeagal activity should be punished to the full extent of the law. And the courts should support it in every way possible and not always worry about popularity. If you have a problem with the system fight the copyright laws at the fedral level, don;t fight the companies.
VENI, VIDI, VICI, DIXI
Netherlands has nothing else to lose, and making Kazaa legal would level the playingfield, what is the Netherlands primary means of support? Tourism, drugs, prostitution, gambling.. Oh yes and farming!! What a combination..
Just say no to license servers!!
I note that the "New York Sues Gun Makers" BBC link features the notorious photo, with the description, "Gun campaigner Charlton Heston has defended current gun law".
Is that a truthful depiction of Heston's stance or spin on BBC's part?
Ignorance of Israeli history and hatred of Jews are sources of hatred of Israel, but they're not necessary. I fight bigotry whenever possible, especially against my fellow Jews. But I too hate Sharon and his apocalyptic brinksmanship. I accept the necessity of Israeli annexation of "palestinian" territories when they were used by the Arab coalition to attack Israel. I am disappointed by the Isreali failure to stabilize those areas, and even more by Sharon's provocation of the insane tyrant Arafat at every turn. Israel would do better to militarily confront Syria and Iran, defeating their terrorism sponsorship, than to continue the counterproductive military persecution of the moronic, self-destructive Palestinian people, and their hapless Palestinian neighbors. "Antisemitism" includes Jews *and* Arabs, and the civil war in Israel is dehumanizing everyone in the eyes of the rest of us. And thereby dehumanizing us.
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make install -not war
Tell the "Turks" (of any Muslim origin) in Europe that there are far fewer problems with racism. And keep pretending that they don't exist when there are as many different races, with the economic and political power to demand power, as there are in the US. As usual, Europe will have to learn the lessons the US created, as we live on the bleeding edge of getting along together.
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make install -not war