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Mario Monti Fines Microsoft 100 Million?
n3k5 writes "EU competition commissioner Mario Monti has been in the news a lot lately, following "[...] a preliminary decision that Microsoft is breaking European law by abusing its dominant position in the personal computers' market. However, [the Commission] needs to carry out a series of consultations before finalising its verdict, due by May 1." (Financial Times article) The latest articles all cite German magazine FOCUS, which reports in its current issue that, according to "informed" EU sources, the Commission is considering imposing a record fine of EUR 100,000,000 (USD 123,840,000) on Microsoft. "Amelia Torries, a spokeswoman for Monti, dismissed the report as 'pure and utter speculation.'" (Channel NewsAsia article)"
...welcome our new first-posting Microsoft-suing overlords!
Oh yeah, that's gonna hurt. That's right up there with you or me getting a speeeding ticket for doing 27 in a 25 zone.
Best Slashdot Co
That'll teach'em.
Anyway, Focus is rubbish, Der Spiegel is the only german weekly worth reading.
Next column:
Microsoft shares fall $0.02!Ohhh... nasty... fined ~$0.30 for each person in the EU...
Slap another two zeros on that and you would be talking about a serious fine.
Happy Trails,
Erick
http://www.busyweather.com/
Why do they simply give them a fine? This is behavior that deserves more than just paying a fine. MS has no trouble coming up with cash. If a few top level execs got thrown into jail it may make a bit of difference. Reminds me of the joke of only having to shoot one politician and the rest tend to fall into line.
Stay tuned for new sig...
Microsoft replied... "Cash or Check?"
Objects in the blog are closer then they ap
EU: We fine you ... One hundred ... million dollars (pinky finger to the lip)
Microsoft Board : bwahahahaahhaahahahah
They may also wish these 100M to be paid in windows licenses, preferably to use in schools.
Legal fees: $5,000,000
1.2% of quarterly revenue: $120,000,000
Settling a lawsuit which slows your progress towards Complete World Domination: Priceless
Some things money can't buy. Everything else will soon be owned by Microsoft.
This is just business as usual for Microsoft. Fines are a blip on the bottom line for a particular quarter. The MS war chest is huge, diverting a small percentage of revenue to the chest allows them to pay fines with money they took from you illegally in the first place.
Better idea for the governments: take the money then spend it on promoting open source and non-monopolistic software within your own countries.
Trolling is a art,
MSFT has 10,805,000,000 outstanding shares. An increase of $0.009 will generate the $100M in shareholder value. If the stock price
"Ain't I a stinka..." - Bugs
What's the incentive for Microsoft to stop their abuse? The abuse nets more money than any fine is likely to take away, and is the quickest way to make $$ back after the fine. This won't solve a darn thing.
The effective solutions (start multiple companies off with the Windows source code and have them compete, for example) are very radical, and I don't know if most of them are in the power of the EU. But if the US government is any example, the will to use them isn't there anyway, so Microsoft can write their check and go back to business as usual.
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
The Focus articles states that Microsoft hat to disclose "important informations about Windows" to their competition. I think that means the Windows-API. This would prevent further offences. Could WINE get advantages out of it?
That's it? Microsoft could afford to pay out several times that. Will it really put a dent in their monopoly?
geeky shirts.. funny shirts!
EU: We are fining you EUR100M....
... And we are going to give it all to the FSF.
MS: *Yawn* Can you make change for EUR1B?
EU:
www.eFax.com are spammers
Hang on a minute, it was the U.S itself which brought legal action against Microsoft well before the EU commision began to investigate its business practices. The EU action is simply a continuation of something that the US started nearly a decade ago, so why the bitching and moaning?
And one might also speculate if there is any connections to the latest steel and Galileo-related trade wars.
No, see above. Besides which the EU went straight to WIPO concerning the steel tariffs and they were found totally illegal. The EU has already "retaliated" legally.
Amelia Torries, a spokeswoman for Monti, dismissed the report as 'pure and utter speculation.'
But I heard it on Slashdot! It must be true!
Thats 200'000 of the pink ones guys.
We will accept 150'000 and 4 stations.
It is a rediculous sum that stifles innovation.
Exactly. If you want innovation, you need at least another two zeroes. As long as Microsoft have their desktop OS monopoly, innovation suffers.
The real effect on MS is going to be determined by whether this ends the cycle of lawsuits, or whether it's just another ramping-up of the same.
If it signals an end to them, MS's stock price will likely benefit.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
I am begging any europeans reading this to make a holy noise about "COUPONS FOR MICROSOFT PRODUCTS WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED IN LIEU OF CASH". It's bad enough that we have Jethro Clampett in the US presidency, in charge of the USDoJ and the people's interest in the MS antitrust issue. Please help make sure the goon's mistakes are not mirrored in the EU! Also, don't accept any namby-pamby payment plans. Get the lump-sum immediately, or seize assets and slap extra fines for delaying payment.
--- Nothing clever here: move along now...
following the EU's decision to let Microsoft off on a good behaviour bond, the EU will deploy 50,000 Windows clients and 800 Windows 2k3 servers in a five year deal with Microsoft. Terms could not be disclosed on grounds of commercial confidentiality. Microsoft will also be providing five free copies of Office XP to schools throughout the EU.
"HOW much?" Bill Gates guffawed, as he ogled the cash balance reported in Microsoft's latest 10-Q filing.
--Rob
Towards the Singularity.
Yeah, its one big anti-American conspirecy
Gee, don't see many EU companies in that list do we? Oh wait yes we do!
Monti has teeth, and he can be an outright asshole if he wants to - in other words, exactly the right person for this job.
What's 100 mio? Just a show of teeth, not a bite. Almost certainly (as with prior cases), it won't be "pay and continue", it'll be "pay and stop, and if you don't stop, we'll be doubling the fine and ask again, repeating until you do stop."
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Actually, they would, and quite a few times _did_ happen.
You see, some of us still live in "backwards" parts of the world (e.g., Europe), which still cling to old beliefs.
Like: that courts of law are actually there to uphold the law, not to just bend over and grab their ankles if it's a big corporation. The sad mockery of justice that the US did with Microsoft would have not happened in any European country. Again, repeat after me: the role of a court of law is to uphold the law, not to promote the financial interests of big business.
Or like: that the law itself is supposed to serve the people, and not just be a way for politicians to reward their corporate friends.
Now I'm not saying that it's perfect. But it does tend to work. And so far it's never produced such ridiculous clown shows as the Microsoft settlement in the USA.
So rest assured that if your government is there officially just to brown-nose the rich people for campaign donations, other governments and politicians tend to be a lot more subtle about taking bribes.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Microsoft's Home Entertainment division threw $348 MILLION away in the last QUARTER for which numbers are available, due to their policy of trying to grab a hold of the console market by selling their console at such a massive loss that licensing fees don't begin to make up for it. Think about this. This is about $100 million PER MONTH.
If MS will cheerfully spend $100 million a month to *potentially* expand their monopoly into a new market-- basically gaining customers by largely paying for the customers' products for them-- how exactly is $100 million going to make a difference as a fine? Isn't the idea of antitrust remedy to do something to convince the company to not perform their anticompetitive actions again? $100 million isn't just something MS would happily pay to maintain their monopoly, it's LESS than they're ALREADY spending to maintain their monopoly.
If this does turn out to be more than just rumors, this isn't a penalty for monopolistic status and anticompetitive action; it's a tax, a "ok, go on as you have, but give us some money for the privilidge to do so", and a measly one at that.
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
A fine under a billion dollars is a round-off error to Microsoft.
My fear is that MS will fight this decision tooth and nail, and that in the end the EU will take the easy way out, settling for just the cash. The EU will have their 'win'; MS can proceed with business as usual after ponying up some chump change.
I'd rather see MS keep their money but made tot comply with the other demands.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
I just like to add that the magazine "FOCUS" does not have the best reputation about the correctness of the things they claim to know :-)
Microsoft owe me forty quid from November and it's like getting blood out of a stone.
2003, while we're at it
Heck. 2004 as well. It's a short list right now but stay tuned
If they would do this to an European software company like SAP or Nokia. And one might also speculate if there is any connections to the latest steel and Galileo-related trade wars.
They would and they have. And, all other reasons aside, simply because there is no such thing as a "European company": if SAP or Nokia becomes monopolistic, half a dozen other European nations scream.
I think for Americans to complain that other Western nations have too close ties between domestic companies and government is absurd.
The EU could assess a maximum fine of 2.5 billion Euros if Microsoft is found to have engaged in anti-competitive behavior.
Without regard for what many believe to be MS's list of anti-competitive actions, the EU complaint centers on two issues and those issues alone determine the findings and penalty (if any):
Microsoft is accused by the EU of trying to squelch rival products to its Windows Media Player, such as RealPlayer and Apple QuickTime.
Microsoft has also been accused of trying to squeeze out other firms in the market for "low-end servers" -- computers that provide e-mail and other services to multiple users and might run rival open-source software.
Anything else, no matter how guilty MS is of doing so, isn't part of the complaint and is moot.
The remedy proposed by the EU will almost certainly contain other conditions besides monetary penalties. As in the US judgment against MS, it's these conditions which will probably impact MS's future business and income, not the fine.
It is also widely believed that Microsoft will almost certainly appeal any decision that doesn't vindicate the company; estimates vary but all generally agree a final decision and remedy is years away.
Many well-meaning individuals have proposed adding 3 zeros to the fine; this sounds good from an anti-Microsoft standpoint, but it's simply bad for the economy; remember that by fining a corporation ridiculous amounts of cash we don't punish the people that make the poor decisions (CEOs, chairmen, board of directors) but the guys just like us, working to make a living so that we can hack in our spare time and play with our kids.
There is a better way, I think. If we force open formats for data storage and network protocols, market penetration will be less useful as leverage to increase the barrier to entry of competition.
Thinking outside my Head
Sadly, we're probably wasting our breath, though. I doubt that some of these people even know where Europe is on a map.
Not saying _everyone_ is like that. Some people actually read stuff, and all... but you'd be surprised how many Americans' idea of European legal precedents is based on Hollywood action movies. And given Hollywood's tradition of treating other countries and cultures like a baby treats a diaper... you can guess what those ideas are like.
E.g., that around here we're all tribesmen, oppressed by some carricature of a corrupt government, and get mob/neo-nazi/whatever wars at every street corner. All while, of course, waiting for a True American Hero (TM) to come in, guns blazing, and restore justice.
Just sad...
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
"Yes, a hundred million"
"Whew ... for a second I thought you said a hundred billion ..."
The Raven
if it were per day, until they changed their ways. Otherwise its a waste ov everyones time.
It shows I must be from a different, older generation - it got me thinking about "Monty Mole" and "Monty On The Run" from my good old ZX Spectrum days.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
OK, so there is no truth to this wild speculation, yet it makes Slashdot.
Mastrubation is fun, yes?
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Everyone else has come out with the obvious 'but 100m would be nothing compared to their cash reserves' line.. but forgetting that, Gates doesn't seem to mind fines anyway. He just sees them as a way of getting away with stuff and paying it off.
If you read many of the Microsoft biographies, you'll read stuff talking about how Gates was heavily into speeding everywhere he went, and was constantly being fined and given tickets. He even ended up in jail for it, which is where the infamous Bill Gates in jail picture came from.
But who cares? When you're making massive bucks each month, is it worth a few hundred in fines to stop speeding all the time, if you're not going to end up in jail for a long haul? No. Same goes with this. Paying this fine is just a great way of getting the EU off his back without any hard work.
Make a better product and people will use it. The reason why Linux is still not mainstream is that it does not compare to Microsoft on ease of use. Believe it or not, users drive IT, not us geeks.
Linux has made great progress of late in this market, and they are beginning to show some strength, but penalizing Microsoft just gives others an unfair edge.
Why is it that people always hear what I say, and not what I mean?
Daimler Chrysler - 71m Euros in 1991
Deutche Post - 24m Euros in 1991
Volkswagen - 91m Euros in 2000
But in any case, Microsoft is not the record - Roche was fined 462m Euros for anti-trust in 2001. Google for more...
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
the WINE project devs would not touch any info released, with a 20 foot pole, because it is not free-as-in-beer. it would have a microsoft restrictive license. there is actually more harm done by this, as the AOL/TW "opening" for example. they proposed, and opened, TIC standard which is outdated and rarely used anywhere now (versus OSCAR which is in common use for AIM). this got the gorilla off their back and warrented a healthy-enough look of wanting to inter-operate, that the AOL+TW buyout/merger went through.
help me X-M-P-P, you are my only hope.
SIGERR: laziness exceeds quota
It's actually the opposite which should happen. In the US many more lawsuits were filed after the decision by the courts that Microsoft is indeed a monopoly and abused their power. Once that became official it was much easier to sue Microsoft on those grounds. There was no more need to prove in court they're an abusive monopoly as it's already decided. All that's left to prove is you're a victim of that abuse. The same may go in Europe, although of course I'm just speculating based on what's happened in the US.
Developers: We can use your help.
That aside, it would be interesting to know how much revenue Microsoft can attribute to the Italian market in a year. If it's less than a hundred million euros they might consider just suspending business in Italy for a while.
Why Italy? Because Mr Mario is italian?
This is a EU decision, that this particular plumber, i mean minister is italian doesn't mean squat.
Anyway, "suspending business" in a market just to spite someone would be an incredibly stupid move for a software company, one that will never happen outside your fantasies.
The consequence would be an entire continent simultanously deciding to migrate all business critical apps away from MS, because they could no longer be considered a reliable supplier.
Does that sound like something MS would risk over what is, for them, pocket change?
No, they'll try to pay it in monopoly money (software to schools etc.) and if that don't work they'll just bite the bullet, pay in real money and move on.
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
So when does it get to the point where Microsoft is just an easy target for getting some extra revenue for a government?
I highly doubt anyone on here would notice, with all the MS love everyone shows, but something tells me that fines are not going to be the best way to solve the problem. Sure they might deserve a lot of fines, but when will governments start thinking "Hrm, we're a bit low on revenue...lets fine MS!"
Blake
Assuming that they do fine Microsoft and Microsoft does pay, where will this $100 million go?
Will it just go into the EU's wallet or will it go to promote/help alternative OSs? I think that Microsoft definitely has some retribution in store but I think it's important that countries don't look at Microsoft as a blank check that they can use for their purposes.
The money needs to back to the source (i.e. the alternative OSs that were hurt).
(I couldn't get to the article because of the necessary subscription so this might be addressed there.)
Not everything is analogous to cars. Car analogies rarely work.
It's pretty sad that I get excited to see Microsoft in trouble with the law again. It's sad that we have to rely on another country to punish the corperations in our borders that buy our government.
This'll be worse then a slap on the wrist. It'll be like a distant aunt telling you not do something at a family picnic.
Whatever
*DrugCheese rants*
...they get their airline miles for the purchase.
We convert the 100 million eruo to $123,000,000, assume they get just as many airline miles... figure 100k miles per first class ticket between the states and Europe and Microsoft saves themselves the need to buy 1230 international airline tickets in future... talk about a business write off, lol.
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
Link: You will find more information here. (German only) Die EU will Microsoft laut Focus zudem dazu verpflichten,der Konkurrenz wichtige Informationen zur Verfugung zu stellen, damit diese Programme erstellen konnen, die problemlos mit Microsoft- Produkten harmonieren. Dies hatte der Konzern in dem vierjahrigen Mammutverfahren bis zuletzt abgelehnt. US-Politiker und Lobbyisten werfen der EU vor, Microsoft auf kaltem Wege zu enteignen und europaischen Firmen einen Vorteil zu verschaffen.
don't those things have a daily limit regardless of how much you have in the bank?
Every now and then I go over said limit and have to call the bank and beg them to up the limit that day so I have access to my money.
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
I smell a MS software audit for all EU governments.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
Malto Mario fines Microsoft "kickin it up a notch". BAM!
Flunkie: Mr Gates the EU is fining us 100 million Euros ... ... no response ... ... ... ... OK, there you go ... 100 million!
Gates:
Flunkie: Mr. Gates, did you hear me; 100 million!
Gates: Yeah, yeah, hold on a sec
Flunkie: Ummm, Mr. Gates
Gates: Hang on, I've got one more sofa cushion to go
[Insert pithy quote here]
On the possitive side, EU only takes euro's. If the current trend continues, the fine could become $200 millions if the lawsuit drags on. It's 124570000 this morning. Seriously, this is just pocket change for M$. It's hard for EU to make any fundamental change in the way M$ behaves globally. The only thing EU can do is ask M$ to change its practice in Europe and that's far from enough.
Some friends and I met at a McDonalds before heading in to the concert next door. I was a little hungry and purchased a Big Mac and a coke. I ate the burger slowly and talked with my friends. I noticed that the burger wasn't as hot as I would have liked and somewhat . . . watery. I looked down, not having really looked at what I was eating, having paid more attention to my companions, and noticed that the burger was uncooked in the middle. It had been thawed and browned up on the outside, but the inside was still quite red and bloody.
I spit out the bite I had just taken and took the un-cooked burger up the counter and showed it to the woman who had taken my order. She actually looked more grossed out than I did. She offered me another burger (I wasn't really hungry anymore), then a coupon for a burger at a time of my choosing (no thanks, might not be back here for awhile), and finally my money back (so I could get a meal at someplace safe).
but you'd be surprised how many Americans' idea of European legal precedents is based on Hollywood action movies.
Don't take it personally. Our idea of American legal precedents is based on hollywood action movies too.
EU: Why make trillions when we could make...Billions?
EU: No, because Bill Gates has "mojo". It's what the French call a certain 'I don't know what.'
EU: Begin the unnecessarily slow-moving litigation mechanism!
EU: As you know, every diabolical scheme I've hatched has been thwarted by Bill Gates. And why is that, ladies and gentlemen?
Consumer: Because you never kill him when you get the chance, and you're a dope?
Bill Gates: Sorry, I don't speak Freaky Deaky dutch...
"There is no teacher but the enemy."-Mazer Rackham
100 MILLION [EUR] DOLLARS
*Bill Gates breaks out in fits of laughter*
You owe us...
100 BILLION [EUR] DOLLARS
*Bill stops laughing*
...and that's the way the cookie crumbles.
That's sneaky! When the fine will be finalized in EUR it will increase the exchange rate, so one EUR will be about $2USD. Therefor it will be about $200 MegaBucks! Go EU! :)
Leonid Mamtchenkov
They need to put the people in jail. Find the MS-Euro chiefs who knowningly followed this path of exploitation and lock them up.
A fine against a corporation is just like a tax against a corporation. It is an embedded tax on the consumer. Whether or not many EU people buy MS products they will be paying this "fine". Simply put too many companies and governments use MS products which spreads the cost.
Another alternative would be for the EU to use it as an excuse to move to a linux variant or encourage the schools and other public institutions to do so.
Again, a fine is just a tax, so don't be cheering up that tax you will be paying.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
100Me would be ~10% of 1B$
100Me would be ~1% of 10B$
Microsoft's cash reserves have been reported in the 40B$ ballpark, which is probably still conservative. This puts the fine in the ~0.25% of cash reserves ballpark.
"Oh, did someone slap my wrist? I hadn't noticed."
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
If you'll read even the summary that Slashdot has posted, the 100 million figure is just speculation. It is not official, and it is not confirmed in any way by officials.
So, hey, how about taking your own advice: save the holier-than-thou stuff for when we actually know know the actual number.
But if you really want to debate a number pulled out of some journalist's ass, bear in mind that Europe already _did_ do stuff against Microsoft, among which overturning their OEM EULA. Here there's no automatic "Microsoft Tax" on hardware sales.
What's left in this "plastic sabre rattling" hinges mostly on stuff like the inclusion of the Windows Media Player in Windows, and how much it's hurt RealNetworks. (Although Real isn't an European company.)
I.e., whatever fines will be imposed, will have to do with the size of the damage in this case, not with some "let's bankrupt Microsoft because they're obviously evil" crusade.
The other face of the coin that courts of law should strictly uphold the law, is that they're not supposed to win a popularity contest either. The moment you start handing sentences like "pay 100 billion euro" or "burn the witch at the stake" just because it's what makes the spectators cheer, is just as wrong.
And honestly, if you want to know what I think about RealOne, see yesterday's thread. RealNetworks went above and beyond the call of duty to alienate their own users. Much as I'm otherwise no Microsoft fan, in this case _I_ would pat them on the back instead of any fine.
But again, that's all just ranting and speculation. Until we hear an official number, this is all just a useless typing exercise.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
That's what, about a dollar per security hole in MS products?
that would bankrupt them
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
"Today, we don't feel like to admit it yet, so we'll call it 'speculation'
If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?
[the Commission] needs to carry out a series of consultations before finalising its verdict
In other words they need to find out exactly how much they can milk Microsoft for.
European companies are governed by a much stricter monopolies law that makes it illegal to have a monoplistic market share, even if it was obtained fairly. Plenty of EU companies have been broken up long before they became as big.
Compared to Enron, the Parmalat scandal is pretty small beer, the shareholders were cheated, but they were not allowed to do anything like the manipulation of the California energy market Enron did.
Berlusconi's media empire has been getting away with plenty of chicanery, but only because Burlusconi became Prime Minister and awarded himself immunity from prosecution. Even then, he is being investigated and is likely to be brough to trial. Compare that to the treatment of Bush over his proven-beyond-doubt insider trading at Harken.
OK the US is no more corrupt than Italy, but it is pretty bad when it sinks to that level.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
Okay, let's get this straight - the legal system here worked. The case was prosecuted successfully, Microsoft found guilty. What fell down was the Republican administration that stole power made it known that they had no intention of pursuing the case further. If the prosecution quits the case, it doesn't matter how good your legal system is.
(Posted as AC because IE sucks a nut)
I'm not one of the guys and I'm fairly certain that not even a very small minority of the people in the world are one of the guys who are on the Microsoft gravy train.
The assumption that most of Microsoft's billions in financial reserves are going towards paying the salaries of hard working coders is naive in the extreme.
As has been pointed out, that money is going primarily into funding attempts at new monopolies like the X-Box project where hundreds of millions a month are exhausted, much of it in mind numbing marketing blitzes.
A ten billion dollar fine sounds quite reasonable to me given their own figures of a fifty billion legal war chest.
Yes, MS should laugh on EU and take their 40% of global Windows revenue elsewhere.
There you are, staring at me again.
However, [the Commission] needs to carry out a series of consultations before finalising its verdict, due by May 1.
Cost of french budged deficit 32M Euro
;-) (meaning: Italian Europarliament members wont have to worry about their paycheck being cut in one third just like their coleages)
Cost of german budged deficit 47M Euro
Cost of farming subsidies of countries joining the EU 24BM Euro
Grand total (AKA fine for microsoft> 0.1B
3. Profit
Dude, no offense, but we're talking an anti-trust case, not a civil class action suit, and not a consumer rights suit. Do you know the difference?
Well, in case you don't: let's just say that here we're talking about breaking the law, _not_ about compensating people who bought Windows '95.
I don't think anyone's ever paid in vouchers for breaking the law. Far as I know, not even in the USA.
It's like when a taxi gets stopped for speeding: they'll just give him/her the fine, not make him/her give away taxi vouchers.
Also, we're talking about a punishment, _not_ about a settlement. Just like in the case of the taxi stopped for speeding, it's _not_ a "pay once, and get official permission to continue for ever" deal. It's quite literally a "pay now, and _stop_. Or we'll hit you with a bigger punishment next time."
If Microsoft wants to defy the EU as a whole, there _is_ plenty of room to escalate the sanctions until Microsoft complies, or gets out of the EU market completely. We're talking about the second biggest software market, so I strongly suspect that Microsoft _will_ comply.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
"If it's less than a hundred million euros they might consider just suspending business in Italy for a while."
Which would be illegal unless they stop bussiness in whole EU. (in short)
#include "coucou.h"
Yes!
US is EU in spanish! But USA is EUA...
And EU is UE, if it were UO perhaps it would be worth playing with, but a bit to close to US. But it can't be closer to US because nothing it closer to US than ME. But it would mean that all the computers in US have ME, or where the computers of EU that had ME? I'd rather have XP or RH, but I don't do XP because my company doesn't beleive in this practice, so I'll kepp my RH+ and being also AB I'll drink all your blood
What whas the discussion about again? Pocket change?
Have you looked at the exchange rate between dollars and euros lately? At this rate, by the time MS needs to pay up, 100 million euros may actually cost $1b!
It is an embedded tax on the consumer.
Normally, this is true. However, when discussing a company with billions in the bank, I think this is false. The company is not forced to raise prices to recoup the loss. In fact, the entire point of the fine is that the prices were already raised.
A tax on a company is a tax on consumers when the company is just barely staying afloat (which really describes most companies)... of course the customers may leave if it gets bad enough so it's still not a tax. (And again, the entire point is monopoly abuse, that customers can't just leave, so again, I don't think your comment applies in this case.)
I don't think any EU customers are going to see price hikes as a result of this; that would just get MS another, probably larger fine.
Like: that courts of law are actually there to uphold the law, not to just bend over and grab their ankles if it's a big corporation. The sad mockery of justice that the US did with Microsoft would have not happened in any European country. Again, repeat after me: the role of a court of law is to uphold the law, not to promote the financial interests of big business.
Now really... The US political system may be in the pocket of big business, but the European political/judicial system is every bit as much in the pocket of the labor unions and farmers groups. Americans bow down to a different master than Europeans-- that is about all that can be said. Nobody's judicial system is this perfect little concoction you've made it out to be. And lets not get started on which system is better, because any claims that the distribution of wealth in America is unfair can be countered with claims that European enslavement to labor causes unnecessary unemployment...
Mario Monti: "...one hundred MILLION dollars...muhahahaha..."
Bill Gates: [yawn]
3.22 billion dollars is the maximum fine that the EU could impose on Microsoft under its laws and rules. That's not the same as saying that the EU is seriously considering a 3.22Bn dollar fine.
We are the Music Makers, and We are the Dreamers of Dreams...
i concur with just about everyone on this..
it kinda reminds me of the idiots that spill coffee on themselves at Mcdonalds then sue them for millions because it was hot..
or the people that sue the cigarette companies becuz the smokes gave them lung cancer..
its just getting boring and its a cheap skate way to get money..
i dont like microsoft just as much as the next person.. but its not because they make a shit load of money.. its because they make an OS that doesn't get my job done..
- Hi I'm Linus Torvalds and I pronounce Linux, Lih-nix..
$100m or $1b, it doesn't matter to the EU or Microsoft. The real penalty will be the order to unbundle Media Player and open some server APIs. When all this started, Media Player was a fairly insignificant OS add-on. That's changed. Media Player is now the key part of an MS DRM standard. Without the ability to force media through a universal MS controlled front-end, the whole excercise becomes difficult. Maybe impossible.
Microsoft's strategy was to woo content providers with a de-facto universal DRM scheme based on Windows. By signing up enough providers, MS would be able to end-run hardware makers and force them to adopt MS DRM in turn. This would nicely place MS (and Windows) in the middle of the food-chain. Without near-universal control of the media front-end, MS can't offer seamless protection to the content providers. Even with MS's abysmal security record, a blanket MS controlled regieme is preferable to the record companies et.al. than the current anarchy. Without the content providers on board, MS can't tell the hardware makers "our way or the highway". That means they have to compete with Sony and friends rather than outmaneuver them. And the hardware makers will always support open standards (free as in beer) whenever possible. That's because they've been paying gobs of money for technology licences to Sony and Matsushita for the last 25 years and they're sick of it.
If Monti orders an unbundle, it will almost certainly stand on appeal. And that just about wrecks the current MS DRM effort. Don't worry, though. They'll come up with another, but it will take a few years.
Make a better product and people will use it. Believe it or not, users drive IT, not us geeks.
Both of those statements would be true if a monopoly did not exist in the field. In the US, "Users" wanted better cheaper local and long distance phone service with more features and options back when Ma Bell was in charge. It only happened after a forced breakup and some form of competition was formed. Same with the airline industry back in the 70's, that was more of a regulatory issue but had the same result. Increased competition resulting in more options and cheaper prices. You have no true competition when a monopoly is involved.
I do not fully agree with your ease of use claim either. In a corporate environment, the desktop is normally tightly controlled. Users are not installing software, fixing workstations, installing patches, worried about security, testing software or adding hardware. If they are, that company has far more issues to deal with then ease of use. All the users do is click on applications to use them and nothing more. Are they naturally more familiar with MS because they use it at home? How many people are using PeopleSoft or an Oracle application at home? How many are using billing software, DB software, purchase order software, joining a domain, use a business related intranet, or time keeping software at home? Not many, they learn to use it at work and do fine. The crutch that MS is at home therefore everyone at work can use it too should not hold as much importance as some believe. Corporate software environments are not all the same either, even in the same office or department, users with different applications, versions of software, specialized DB's and applications all needed to get the job done. They cope and have changed before with no problems. What happens when a company changes MS versions of something? They are required to change and learn. What about when going from Win3.1 --> Win95 --> W2K --> XP and all the different office packages and application changes? None of them is much more different from jumping to KDE/Gnome. The main issue with changing to something other then MS is having an application on the platform of your choice that does what you need.
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
I've been trying to find info on the case on the EU w3site which is terribly disorganised -- worst site(s) I've ever seen. When I search for M$ on the EU site using Google all I seem to get is references to M$ Word or Powerpoint documents or things saying that you must be using MSIE, MS Word &c to use the EU site.
The main EU sites' search function is totally broken and the site of the Consumer Protection Directorate and Unfair Contract Terms law site pester you to register & seem to require MSIE.
However, I did find something about the case, which does not say much, or give any details of what law they are been prsecuted under.
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
[This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
... but on the "API/protocols disclosure obligation". ... less than the profit of one quarter. But being obliged to disclose SMB protocols or Microsoft(R) Office(tm) file formats would let competitors enter the market, which would inevitably ruin the as-yet-never-reached-in-history 83% of margin of this product. This would cost MSFT much more than any guessable fine ... although it would be much wiser economically speaking.
Even a $1 billion fine would be perceived as a success by MSFT, as it is
Wow. Someone sticks up for MS and gets modded down to flame bait. I wonder if rants about SCO similarly get modded down.
If they really want to do something, fines are not the way to go. The only effective measure would be to make them modify Windows. In the US, because they weren't forced to modify windows' bundling, the fines levied really had no effect. In fact it was a positive experience for them because they paid their fines mostly in free software to schools, furthering their monopoly. If IE was seperated from the OS, then something might have actually change.
Reports were that the EU was considering seperating Windows Media Player from the OS. I think this would be a good start, but not enough. And a mere fine wouldn't be enough either.
What I think really needs to be done to break their monopoly.
a) Seperate Outlook Express, IE, Media Player, and Windows Messenger from the OS. Make them free downloads from Microsoft.com
b) OEM's shouldn't have such a hefty penalty for also selling competing OS's. All MS OEM contracts for desktop systems contain provisions that keep you from selling any other OS than windows. If you don't sign a contact, you pay retail. This needs to be done away with.
c) All file formats non-patentable and documents for the file format specs need to be made available publicly so competing software can be made interoperable.
the Commission is considering imposing a record fine of EUR 100,000,000 (USD 123,840,000) on Microsoft.
Is that per year? Until they're not longer, what, 60% market share. Something reasonable. That'd be a good fine.
I make these: http://beatseqr.com
To undermine MS' dominance:
Fund OS awareness at all levels
Fund OS projects
(insert initiative here)
In short, do something similar to what the Federal and State governments are doing in the US, with Tobacco settlement Money.
EU MS Rep.: Do you accept... cash!? *Ch-Ching!*
No sig for you!!
You don't think this might have anything to do with the quality of native language user interfaces, or stimulating the own economy instead of someone elses? Nah...
It's a valid point, really. The problem is that when Microsoft says "innovation" it really just means "natural development".
Who would consider a desktop operating system complete these days if it didn't include all the same crap they're being sued over? How many people do you know that use a desktop system and never, ever use a web browser, mail client or a basic media player? Does OSX honestly come without this stuff?
The only thing the MS has really done wrong is bastardize the OS market with software, since hardly anyone wants a naked OS anymore. If your grandma bought a computer and had to go buy/download a web browser, would she think it's fully functional? Screw the 'stifling innovation' charges, you can still install Mozilla, Eudora and any other replacements you want. They just play off of user apathy so that it's easier to go along with the basic tools. Isn't the lazy user equaly to blame here?
The EU pays more foreign aid than the US, and certainly doesn't receive US aid.
Since MS will be peeved at the EU if they decide to levey $100 million in fines which is a sizeable amount, couldn't they decide to increase contact costs within the EU and/or charge more for support costs?
Though risky, businesses don't have much of a choice *but* to use MS software (namely, for MS Office compatability) which *requires* MS OSes.
All seriousness aside: Isn't $100 million Bill's hourly wage?
I just don't want to be part of that cossy word in which choice is completely taken away from the consumer.
If your freedom of choice as a costumer is valued in as much as a little inconveninece to run an installation program, then your freedom has no value at all.
Mine does have value, and I will go through some additional hope to configure my computer if that ensures I have freedom of choice when using softwware, no matter on which platform.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
She did not denied it, she just said it was speculation.
Obviously you are not familiar with euro-speak.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
WTF?! How has your freedom of choice been infringed upon? If you don't like media player, DON'T USE IT. Install another player if you like. Would you like MS to take notepad out of the OS as well, so you have the choice of installing your own text editor?
"Faith strikes me as intellectual laziness." -Robert A. Heinlen
Those "everyone" do not seem to have any problem to move from Windows3.11 to Windows95 and from ther to WindowsNT or Windows2000, and from there to WindowsXP.
All those migrations are not smooth, many things change (as we can attest by the great side business that teaching MS software is, a whole industry in helping people use the "user friendly" products of MS reaps the benefits).
It is completely disingineous to see people migrating all the time to very different software platforms whose only similarity is the name of the manufacturer and then deny that that same peoplsomehow would become stupid if they would need to migrate to OSS solutions.
Pure and adultereted FUD and patronizing of users covered by the sheepskin of concern for loss of productivity.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Most of these acts stem from MS bundling IE with Windows. People claim this was anticompetive, but what was the actual outcome of this? We have free web browsers, the goal for netscape was to charge for it. They even sold their browser at the local compusa's and other stores. We have a bunch of browsers to pick from, Mozilla, Opera, etc. Netscape/AOL found it wasn't profitable to keep maintaining netscape and Open source it hence we have mozilla which is arguably the best web browser on the market. If the OS came with no browser, how would you expect people to be able to download whatever browser they wanted? The command line version ftp is really too complicated for mom and dad to figure out. People would be shelling out money for an internet pack or installing AOL cds. Thats a loss for the consumer.
Have you ever been to a turkish prison?
IMHO it needs to be something like half of Microtrash's net assets in order to be effective.
Therefore it seems weird to me that a comissioner is able to fine a company. Fining should be left to the judges.
I realize that the case is being appealed to Brussels, but still the whole system is kind of strange.
Because the authorities thought it was "premium" butter it came under a different quota, which was exceeded.
So the EU can do these things, it's just they do it to the wrong people.
For all of our sakes, I hope you are right!
In the US, the courts found that in fact, Microsoft had violated the Sherman Antitrust Act, ruling just short of a "guilty" verdict that no more arguments on facts of the case would mitigate a guilty verdict. The Sherman act is not civil law. It is criminal law. At this point, Microsoft shifted from a not-guilty stance, to negotiating a settlement with the USDoJ. The courts waited patiently. They dragged it out as long as they could, and ultimately got a monopoly-friendly US President in charge of the USDoJ to relax the pressure. The kids are now guarding the cookie jar.
Microsoft is not really a technology company. They are an Intellectual Property (IP) law firm trying to maintain IP assets. They will fight like dogs. That's what they do. They are dogs.
--- Nothing clever here: move along now...
Microsoft has every right to build its products however it wishes and impose whatever terms it likes on their distribution.
"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
The EU sues companies for charging too much?
Where's this printed rate sheet? Do companies get sued for charging too little? Who elected the political body that decided what each commodity should cost?
---
Believe me, the corpulent layers of bureaucracy in the government of Taxachussets will see to it that a non-Microsoft 'solution' costs even more. Big bloated bureacracies are The American Way so wave that flag, sonny.
---
100 million? This has got to be a joke.
A fine is supposed to be a punishment.
What's the point of it if you don't even notice that you're being punished.
It's rather amusing that you promote a stereotypical view of Americans, one that characterises Americans as having a stereotypical view of Europeans.
Recursion! Cool!
Can you come up with even more elaborate handwaving and fluff rhetoric? I mean, puleese.
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I take it these 'surveys' are conducted by people who oppose the 'slant' of FOX News, in other words, people who slant the other way.
Umm.....
more likely to believe in falsehoods about, say,
So, you're basing your opinion on direct observation of FOX News, and the American public, or are you beliving, ummm, something you've been told?
an american friend of mine (who apparently is un-american enough to be friend with a european...),
Wow. You're not showing any kind of bias there, my friend.
---
The sad mockery of justice that the US did with Microsoft would have not happened in any European country.
Yeah, that's because Microsoft wouldn't have happened in a European country... Or Intel, Or Sun, or Oracle, AMD, etc, etc. Let's not forget bio-tech, either. What was the nationality of the company that sequenced the human genome? Europe is hostile to new enterprise formation. Things aren't perfect in the US, but Europe is in no place to preach. Euro tax laws are burdensome and the EU is turning into a fiasco. The last thing we need is European "objectivity" about business practices. Before you roll out Enron, Worldcom, etc, have a look at the history of Lernout & Hauspie, Adecco, and Parmalat to name a few.
I admit, I am fed up with European US bashing.
Imagine how much harder physics would be if electrons had feelings! -Feynman, maybe
Actually there is one other interesting "detail" here...
The fine in itself is not that important, it's the crime and the damage.
When you commit an economical crime, you have to pay: A fine + Economical Damages made.
If they actually find that there is a crime committed by Microsoft against the european consumers, they will have to pay all economical damages done. Should be an interesting calculation.
> quick 'n' easy cash
4 years of investigation to get 100 million $.
And you call that quick 'n' easy ?
I just don't want to be part of that cossy word in which choice is completely taken away from the consumer.
Neither do I, and if anything in the operating system impeded the installation of 3rd party utilities then said operating system would find its way off of my hard drive.
If your freedom of choice as a costumer is valued in as much as a little inconveninece to run an installation program, then your freedom has no value at all.
I'm not terribly sure how you equate my appreciation of the bundling of 3rd party applications as an infringement upon my choice as a consumer. It did not limit my choice of browsers. Given the choice of the pre-installed software and software that actually meets my need I will not only install but PAY for replacement software. I did just that in the case of Opera.
When it comes to applications or utilities where my needs are more modest I'm generally not willing to pay. Some good examples are media playing and word processing. I used the bundled applications. Sure, you could attempt to make the point that this somehowe cuts the revenues of the makers of media players and word processing software, but in their absence as bundled products only two things would happen: I'd download a competent free product and be irritated that basic crap like that didn't come out of the box and think about an alternate OS.
One that DID come with those things.
And I'm willing to bet that since my option at that point would likely be a free operating system (whose initials are Linux) that you'd have no problem at all with it. Even though it also could be claimed to cut the revenues of software companies.
Maybe the queen could add him to her knighthood list. I think Super Mario would be cool. I want a framed picture of Super Mario jumping on Microsoft.
A single fine is STUPID. period.
do {
fine 100 million
wait 6 months
} while ( MS illegally defines "Windows" as an OS when its a distribution and prohibit an MS distribution.)
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
Like Europe is any better? Use the force, Luke - and look into the past.
Government has always subsidized enterprise and vice versa. Columbus raping the West Indies, Britain colonizing the entire world, fsck, dude, the Roman Empire - ALL gov't is corrupt. And its not like US corporations only fsck over americans, either - GE convinced the French gov't to build a nuclear power plant on a fault line.
The courts were DEVISED as a way of INTERPRETING law, not UPHOLDING it. Read your civics textbook. The entire "mockery" you speak of is the same you'd see in any country the world over. Countires bending over backwards to get nukes and into space while most of the populace lives in poverty.
Big business has ALWAYS controlled Gov't, as has the media conglomerates - by chanelling public opinion to back a certain war (Spanish-American or Iraqi Freedom) for the benefits of the corporations who build the weapons and such. They've ALWAYS worked together to fsck the people, ALWAYS.
You're just another sad individual who is so short sighted you actually believe this "land of the free" crap they shove down your throat. It never was, friend, and it never will be.
Now go fill your car with gas, pound the pavement with your sweatshop-made sneakers, pump your stomach full of grease laden fast food and overpriced coffee from S'leven, and keep talkin' about how the man is running amok. You're amusing me.
You need to seriously think about the distinction between "Charging too much" (in the sense you use it) and "Monopoly abuse".
I am hopeful that if you chew on it long enough, the differences may become apparent.
Good luck.
Bill Gates could write the EU a check for a 100 million euros every single year for the next 100 years and not miss it.
The discussion as I imagine it....
The EU: We fine you 100 hundred million euros
Bill Gates: Do you take Mastercard?
I think your theory is perfect except for the fact that we are dealing with a monopoly in a commodity that can be easily replicated with very little effort (software). The quota will simply ensure pirate behavior (underground economy). I'm not sure of the answer except that with the monopoly also controlling the advertising and the mindset it is only a matter of time before the the tariffs and quota's will be lifted with public pressure. Unfortunately the only way to stem the tide would be with a competitor with as much clout and penetration to offer an alternative.
Stay tuned for new sig...
do{ fine(); wait(1);} while ( inViolation() )
that will stop them as long as fine is large enough and wait is short enough.
something like:
fine: windows profit for 1 quarter
wait: 1 quarter
Lets see how long they go having to give up half their profit...
THAT is how you stop corporations; take away the motivation ($$$) to violate the law.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
The anti-trust settlement is shameful, and I'll be the first to say that. Still, even there they didn't get sentenced to give away vouchers, unless I missed something. The vouchers thing was a completely different lawsuit, AFAIK.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
I wasn't talking about _this_ particular case, because as I've said, we don't know any exact figure yet.
I'm talking about the fact that Europe _did_ so far fine some of its biggest exporting corporations. Whereas the USA got that shameful Microsoft settlement.
So excuse me I find it surrealistic to read stupidities like "the EU wouldn't fine Microsoft if it was an European company". If we're talking justice, "euro-trash" have a far better track record so far.
But seein' as you _still_ want to talk that phantasy 100 million number: whatever monetary fine will be imposed, is only part of the issue. The other issues include an actual court sentence to stop doing the offending stuff. Unbundle the offending software, _and_ open up all the API's to everyone. That is the real remedy, not the money.
I.e., unlike the USA settlement, it doesn't say "oh, we'll let you keep doing whatever you want. Oh, and we sentence you to guard the cookie jar yourself." As was said again and again, it says "stop, or we'll hit you with bigger fines, again and again and again, until you do stop."
Not only can it be escalated to 2.5 billion euro, it can be done so repeatedly, if needed. Plus if MS _really_ wants to defy the EU as a whole, I do believe that there are even more interesting possibilities that countries have. Such as import taxes, for example.
I don't doubt that if the pissing contest does continue, the law can and will be changed until it has enough teeth.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
...in promulgating a monopoly. Microsoft have.
And 100G$ is spare change for Microsoft. If someone fined me a fifth of a percent of my current savings, would I be in tears?
In the USA, they didn't even get that. Poor, poor, much-maligned Microsoft, the indignities they have to put up with... my heart bleeds for them.</sarcasm>
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Maybe I mushed this up a bit. I remember vaguely that after the USDoJ got the findings of fact, several states sued for damages based on them. I remember at least one of them gave credit to Microsoft for copies of Microsoft products donated to schools, etc. That gets my hackles up.
--- Nothing clever here: move along now...
Unbundling it means that customers have to take steps to get stuff, at which point they then have a choice of getting Microsoft stuff like IE or getting something like FireBird which isn't so inclined to go phishing while your back's turned.
It's still not enough. Microsoft still get to keep the profits from their profiteering. In Australia, looters are quite often shot. In the USA, it seems, they get a pat on the back from Dubya's administration.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
That's, what, 25 million per year? I'd work my ass off for four years if it meant I'd get 100 million afterwards.
Forcing Microsoft to leave the customers at a point where they are offered a clear choice, rather than dumping them into a complete spiderweb where it repidly becomes increasingly difficult for them to choose a competitor.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Perhaps it is just that the German mindset isn't as bothered by monopolies than other Europeans'?
Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
Yeah, their free fonts were nice. Until they pulled them for competitive reasons. (-:
Good choice of handle for a spite-magnet. (-:
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing