Indian Techies Answer About 'Onshore Insourcing'

This is an unusual Slashdot Interview, since instead of using email I asked all the questions in person last week either at LinuxAsia2004 or in casual meetings with local LUG members and other techies I met during the conference. Some of your questions were answered quite well by other Slashdot readers in the original post. (Slashdot has many readers both in and from India.) I also inserted a number of personal observations, which I usually don't do in these interviews, because it seemed to be the best way to answer some of the questions. And some questions were nearly unanswerable, as you'll see when you read the rest of this article.

Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas, by RobertB-DC

Long before outsourcing to India became an issue, large IT companies like American Airlines [aa.com] were virtual H1-B "hardship" visa factories, importing large numbers of technical experts from India and other countries during the dot-com boom.

But when the boom went bust, and the layoffs came, H1-B visa holders were left out in the cold, unable to even look for a new job due to the terms of their visas.

Do the IT professionals you've met feel that US companies and the US government used bait-and-switch tactics to take advantage of cheaper non-US workers? Or did those applying for H1-B visas know what they were in for?

And a follow-up question: does anyone think that US companies will hesitate to leave their outsourcing partners high and dry as soon as they (again) find a cheaper alternative?

A:

Network administrator Manpeet Nemra says, "No, it was their choice to go. They always knew what the situation was. If you leave out the first few, the rest had contacts there and knew.

Others echoed his reply, and a few thought the questioner wasn't "thinking very clearly." One Perl programmer asked, "Does he think we don't have email lists and Web sites? We are techies. We stay in touch all over the world. We know what's going on everywhere, same as you."

On re-outsourcing: Ashvini Vishvakasarma, a consultant with Techspan, feels that American and European companies currently outsourcing work to India won't hesitate for a second to move their work elsewhere if they find a cheaper alternative. "They will move in a flash," he says. "They're leaving for the Philippines already. It's very disturbing for Indian programmers."

Average experience? - by El

How much experience do most Indian programmers have? It seems to me that in ramping up from a few hundred to thousands of programmers over the past few years, most of these people must be fresh out of school... how much training do people need before they start producing reliable results?

A:

It's common here for new grads (slang term: "freshers") to spend up to six months in a low-paid or even unpaid internship before they get a "'real" job. This is true not only of programmers and other IT people, but in almost all white collar positions. One of the desk clerks at the hotel I'm in is a new-grad management trainee who earns what she calls "a stipend that buys my clothes," and won't start earning her full starting salary -- about $330 per month -- for another four months.

Another factor (see other answers further down) is that some Indian programmers, like some American programmers, may be recent college grads, but have been messing with computers since their early teens or even before. The Delhi LUG's youngest current member is 13, and is dipping his toes into programming waters. Some of the college student members take on programming or Web projects for friends and family. In other words, many Indian new-grad IT people -- just like many new-grad IT people elsewhere -- may already have quite a bit of real-world experience when they get their "first" job.

Code Monkeys v. Architect? - by yintercept

Related to the experience question: Many US business pundits claim that the US is only outsourcing the low end code monkey and support jobs, and is keeping the higher end, more prestigious "project management" and architect jobs in the US?

First, is this the case? or is India also excelling in architectural and design work?

If it is the case, is there a resentment for the imperialistic attitude in only giving India the low end projects?

Finally, in a land where there are real monkeys am I making a big cultural blunder by calling people "code monkeys"?

A:

I got hit with a chorus on this one. The consensus was that in a poor country like India a job is a job, and one takes what one can get. If U.S. and European firms want to have Indians do only "low end" projects, fine. Meanwhile, home-grown companies are doing their own architecture and research, working desperately to build an India-based software industry that can survive after the "low end" outsourced projects move to China or wherever.

Response to the "code monkeys" comment, loosely translated into American English from Hindi-accented New Delhi English: "Ha, ha, ha, ha. It is the same everywhere. Some of us are good at this work, but many aren't. There are code monkeys everywhere. Real programmers, too, and real programmers here call code monkeys 'code monkeys' here same as anywhere else. Pass me another beer, will you?"

Quality of life - by Scott Lockwood

American workers have certain legal protections that drive up the cost of our wages. Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? Are you allowed to organize into unions? How long is your work week? What are your working conditions like? What kind of benefits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive?

A:

At least five people said a comment attached to this question in the original interview post summed up the situation nicely. Here's that post (from "Anonymous Coward"), repeated:

I work for a large Multinational Tech Co.

Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? -- Yes. The rules are the same.

Are you allowed to organize into unions? -- Unions are definitely allowed by law. But as in the U.S there are no Unions of Software Professional. BTW, India is probably the only place in the world where there is a democratically elected communist state govt. In fact, the labor laws are stricter here. Its nearly impossible to fire Blue Collared Workers or Declare Bankruptcy.

How long is your work week? -- I put in the usual 40 hrs a week over 5 days.

What are your working conditions like? -- The food in the cafeteria is better here than what I had when I was in U.S :-)

What kind of benefits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? -- Folks in India probably get more vacation than in the U.S. As per Indian Law there has to be at least 14 days of earned leave and 7 days of sick leave. This is excluding the 3 national holidays (Republic Day, Independence Day, Gandhi Jayanti); 3 Hindu Holidays, 2 Muslim Holidays and 2 Christian Holidays, Plus 1 State holiday; Unless they fall on the weekend. As far as Medical goes, Govt of India Rules specify that a group Medical Insurance Policy be taken out by the Co. Usually this works out to a coverage of about $10000 for about $40 a month. Profit Sharing, Stock Options and Employee Stock Purchase Plans all exist. In fact one of the biggest stories used to be the Infosys Stock Plan. Also, the Govt Specifies that 12% of your Salary be paid by the Company towards Pension each month. This earns about 9.5% interest.

I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive? -- Thats because cost of living is far cheaper here. Food - about $50 a month, Rent about $175 a month, Entertainment, Eating out etc.. about $100 a month. So in all about $350 a month is more than enough. Whatever remaining usually goes into buying a car or a house.

Population vs. population with jobs? - by bc90021

With one billion people in India, what is being done to increase the number of employable people? Granted, while we in the US may not like our jobs leaving, it must be helpful to Indians. What is being done to increase the employability of the average Indian?

A:

This is a touchy subject. Less than 15% of the Indian population is what Americans would call "middle class." Many Indian workers live on between $35 and $100 per month, and one of the first sights a foreign visitor notices when walking out of the terminal building at the Delhi airport at midnight is people sleeping on the ground, right on the airport grounds. Begging is common almost everywhere except in communities and office complexes that have gates and guards to maintain control on who can and can't enter. I'll post several stories, with photos, on NewsForge later this week that will go into more depth about economic conditions in India and how the software industry does -- and doesn't affect them, but for now let's confine ourselves to a couple of quotes from Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay, who grew up in comparative poverty and is now a programmer/consultant who makes his living doing outsourced work for U.S. companies:

I grew up in a very poor village. My father made $10 per month as a schoolteacher. One bicycle was our only family transport. I went to college as a scholarship student. I did well in my exams, so the government paid for my education. Now I own two houses, and the workers I hired to build both of them had no other work, so that helped bring money into my village. My father and mother live in a house I built, too. I rent out one of the houses I own now and live in the other one. The money I earn spreads through the economy. Fathers work at better jobs because of my spending and can keep their children in school instead of having them go out to work early.

Mukhopadhyay believes that in the long run, to help technology benefit more of the population and raise living standards for all, India needs more of a "bootstrap economy. We need acceptance of the fact that innovation can come out of India."

He is not alone in this belief. Although the LinuxAsia2004 conference was heavily weighted toward speakers selling systems (i.e. Sun, IBM, and their giant brethren -- the "usual suspects") there were many small, quiet sessions that revolved around using computers and the Internet to distribute information to people in neighborhoods and villages where books are now rare and expensive.

The government talks constantly about uplifting all of India, not just the current rich and "middle class," but when you look at that one billion population figure and see the amount of money available, things still look bleak -- although India's economy is now increasing at a much faster rate than the population, so things are less bleak now than they were a generation ago.

But there is a long way to go. India's problems aren't going to be solved in a few years or even a few decades. This is an old country; Delhi has been continuously inhabited since about 1000 B.C., and in many ways life for some residents hasn't changed a great deal since then. India has only had an elected government since its independence from Great Britain in 1947, and politics since then have more tumultuous than not. While I was visiting, for the first time ever plans were being made for Cricket matches between the Indian and Pakistani national teams, with constant back-and-forth waffling by government people in both countries about whether the terrorism risk was acceptable. Last I heard, the match was going to happen.

So look for improvements in India overall, not just for the top 10% or 20% of the population. Just don't hold your breath waiting for all one billion Indians to become literate, well-dressed, and own motorcycles or cars (or even to have electricity and good plumbing), because even if every software job in the U.S. ends up there, and none later evaporate to even poorer countries, India's "modernization" could easily take a century or more.

Education Costs - by dachshund

How much does an Indian college education cost the typical student? Is it government subsidized, or are students expected to pick up the entire cost? And how does that cost compare to the average yearly salary of a college-educated technology worker (ie, how long does it take you to pay of college debt?)

A:

There's a big "it depends" attached to this answer. As noted above, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay got a government-supported scholarship because of his high entrance exam test scores. Students with lower test scores but prosperous parents can also get into college. And now, according to one educator I met at the Centre for Development of Advanced Computing (CDAC), banks are starting to loan money to cover student fees at what she called "favourable interest rates."

According to CDAC students Vikas Gupta and Loveleen Choudray, it takes three to four years of work for most loan-supported students to pay off college debts. They told me 20% of university seats are reserved for free (scholarship) students, while the cost of a "paid seat" can range from 22,000 rupees (about $486 US) up to 72,000 rupees (about $1600 US), depending on the school.

This is eminently affordable for middle class Indian families (both Gupta and Choudray are going through college on their parents' tab) -- but don't forget that "middle class" is not a high percentage of the population. (See the next question and answer.)

Cost of living? - by demigod

What does a decent 2 bedroom apartment cost per month?

How about food for 1 month?

Utilities, etc?

A:

I was asking this question in New Delhi, India's capital city, and living costs in India vary as much as they do anywhere else depending on where you live. I met programmers who lived in apartments and houses that cost anywhere between $200 and $500 per month, and a few who lived in compounds their families had owned for generations. The consensus was that $11,000 or $12,000 (US) per year was plenty to support a middle class lifestyle. But "middle class" there is not the same as in the U.S. Some differences:

• Indians drive tiny cars by U.S. (or even European) standards
• The motor scooter or motorbike is common transport for young people -- and a 100cc bike is about as big as most get, with 150cc to 200cc considered powerful speed machines.
• If you don't own a car, you can hire one -- including chauffeur -- for about $10 per day.
• Forget public transportation. Buses are filthy and overcrowded. You're probably better off taking one of the seemingly millions of green, three-wheeled auto-rickshaws that are on every street in the city. (They are limited by law to three passengers, but I saw seven people get out of one...)
• Servants cost about $35 month to hire in New Delhi. Every "middle class" Indian household seems to have at least one live-in servant -- but few have dishwashers or other "household convenience" appliances.
• Food and clothing are amazingly cheap by Western standards. I mean seriously cheap, like less than 1/10 as much. On the other hand, programmers in India are professional workers who are expected to wear suits and ties for most business events (although most wear the same basic "jeans and t shirt" fashions as their U.S. counterparts when not required to dress up).

It's hard to put a one-to-one comparison on cost of living between countries with different cultures and economic imperatives. Medical care (and health insurance) are much lower in India than in the U.S., but then you can bring up the example of Canada and its national health insurance, for which Canadians pay higher taxes than U.S. residents.

Bottom line: You can have a decent life in New Delhi for around $12,000 US per year -- but to earn that much you'll probably need to have source of income from another country -- like programming outsourced from the U.S. or Europe -- because most white-collar jobs there pay $6000 US or less, and burger-flipping there is likely to net you more like $2000, which may not be enough to afford an apartment with electricity and running water. (And yes, plenty of people in New Delhi live without running water or electricity.)

Distorting the Economy - by BigBadBri

Not specifically about IT outsourcing, but more about call centre outsourcing - does the drain of educated people to call centres have any implications for the rest of the economy?

Call centre staff can earn more than teachers, police, nurses, etc - are those professions suffering as a result of the call centres picking out the English speakers?

Is this storing up problems for India's public sector in the future?

A:

I had a long conversation with a guy who works as a hiring manager for Prudential's customer service operation in New Delhi.

Let's note, from the start, that Prudential does not "outsource" to India. They own their own call center (or centre, depending on your spelling heritage) there. When you speak to someone in their New Delhi office, she -- and it is usually "she" -- is just as much a Prudential employee as someone working in one of their U.S. offices.

This call center woman is probably earning around $300 month (US), and without that job she'd be working in a shop for $100 per month. She works nights (so she can deal with calls from the U.S. during the U.S. business day), and one of her benefits is rides to and from work, so there is a whole transportation business sector that has developed to do nothing but take call center employees to and from work, not to mention cafeterias to feed her at work, Starbucks and other foreign chains (including McDonald s) where she spends her paychecks, cell phone companies that take her money because no techno-hip young Indian woman can be caught dead without a cell phone, at least from the examples I saw all around me.

Call center work is not necessarily permanent. It is a burnout job in India just as phone "customer service" work is in the U.S. It is also not that great on the pay scale. The breakfast waiter in the "American Diner" in my hotel said he made more waiting tables than he'd make in a call center; that he had friends who did call center work to help them get through college or whatever, but that no one expects to do it for life -- and besides, all those jobs will go to the Philippines sooner or later, anyway, so why bother?

So our Prudential guy is a good company man (who is not being quoted by name because he was not authorized to speak for the company, and the Pru gets tight about such things all over the world) and earns a nice salary, right up there with a programmer if not slightly higher. He's single, so he lives well, and friends say he has access to many potential girlfriends since he's in charge of hiring and training a workforce composed primarily of young women, which he acknowledges is a major fringe benefit.

Now the other side: There is no shortage of people in New Delhi to fill all the call center jobs -- and all the police, nursing, and teaching positions. and if all the people in New Delhi were suddenly employed, people from other parts of the country would flock there like mad, and if they don't know English they are willing to learn (including an American accent) if it will get them a decent job, and there are plenty of schools that will teach them either for an upfront fee or by taking some of their call center earnings after they get a job.

There is no shortage of people to do any kind of decent-paying work in India, period. The Army turns down at least 19 out of 20 applicants who want to be enlisted soldiers, and turns down 49 out of every 50 officer candidates, who must have college degrees even to apply in most cases.

This goes back to that whole "one billion people" thing. If a million of them work in "offshore" positions, that's only one out of thousand. Make it 10 million, and it's still only one percent of the population, and as the prosperity created by the 10 million working for offshore companies wends its way through the economy, more children will be able to go to school longer, which will make the workforce progressively more educated, which will increase the supply of potential employees for "first world" companies.

But don't forget: China, The Philippines, Vietnam, and other countries lurk in the wings, not to mention African countries that are still at the very beginning of the industrialization curve and have people more desperate by far than India has had for several decades now.

What about the long-term? - by The Night Watchman

This point has already been mentioned a bit by previous articles, but I'd like to hear an insider's take on it. The Indian tech economy is booming now, but like in the US, it's an unstable boom. Sooner or later, the US will look to other countries for their tech work, leaving India high and dry. What measures are being taken in India to maintain a strong internal tech economy, in the event that the US is no longer a serious customer?

A:

I got many answers to this question, and they all boiled down to, "We must build a domestic IT market."

But then, how can you do that in a country where a clerk costs less than a computer, and you have -- as one person put it -- "government officials out in the villages who are afraid to use a computer because they think the keyboards might give them an electric shock"?

Most people I talked to believe government is the only hope; that egovernment and other government projects are the only way to develop a sustainable local IT sector.

Next question (asked by Indians I spoke to): "Where is the government going to get the money?"

I was asked to pose this one to Slashdot readers. Consider it posed. Plenty of Indians would like to know the answer.

New Indian Startup Companies - by blueZhiftb

I'd like to know how long it will be before Indian tech professionals start forming startup companies to compete directly with their American corporate masters using what they have learned from them.

A:

It's already happening. Like mad. Half the people I met through the Delhi LUG are either self-employed or thinking about starting their own businesses. This could be a whole separate article, possibly even a whole series of articles.

Geek culture in India? - by Experiment 626

In the U.S., there is something of a geek subculture which Slashdot in particular caters to. Obviously, not all programmers are true geeks at heart, but among the people in America who are really fascinated by computers, you have a greatly disproportionate number who are into science fiction, RPGs/LARPs, Lord of the Rings, Legos, Anime, etc.

Does this apply in India as well? Would, say, a Unix systems programmer there typically have such things as interests? If not, are there analogous hobbies that distinguish the Indian geek from everyone else?

A:

After a few evenings hanging out with Delhi LUG guys (and yes, it's almost entirely guys), I realized that you could hold a joint meeting of the Delhi LUG and the Suncoast LUG here in Florida, and the only major differences would be the brands of beer ordered for the first round. The biggest argument would be over whose beer is better, followed by the ever-popular vi vs. emacs and KDE vs. Gnome controversies. Raj, from the Delhi LUG, and Logan, from the Suncoast LUG, would probably become huge buddies in about two seconds. I swear, if I closed my eyes while listening to Raj's bad jokes, sometimes I thought he was Logan -- and I mean this as a compliment to both of them.

All the Delhi LUG crowd reads Slashdot. For the most part, they read the same science fiction books and watch the same movies as their U.S. counterparts. The ones who play guitar know pretty much the same songs -- and generally (*ahem*) play with the same great skill -- as Rob Malda.

And the unmarried ones had the same complaints about never meeting appropriate girls, too.

Geek culture is worldwide. It's not exactly the same everywhere, but (so far) I've observed it first-hand in Mexico, Trinidad, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and now India, and I assure you, there are many more points of similarity than differences between its various "branches," at least in my (limited) experience.

Comments

whoa

[fjordboy]

I learn something new every day:

BTW, India is probably the only place in the world where there is a democratically elected communist state govt.

I always thought the two things were mutually exclusive...I had no idea it was possible. I'm gonna have to look this up online...that's really interesting.

Re:whoa

[Creepy Crawler]

Why not? If the majority of the people (democracy) want a equal-split share system such like communes (communism), why not grant it?

What wouldnt make sense is a Capitalistic Communism or a Dictatorial Republic or Organised Peaceful Anarchy.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Democracy is a governmental system.
Communism is an economic system.
They are totally orthogonal. Anybody who believes differently has been fooled by McCarthy's propoganda.

Re:whoa

[geoffspear]

That's because Americans are brainwashed from birth to believe that "Communism" means "evil form of dictator-controlled government based around the idea of killing all Americans", rather than a political philosophy dedicated to the rights of the workers.

The fact that most governments that have called themselves "Communist" have been ruled by elitist nutjobs whose only motivation was to increase their own power doesn't help, of course.

Re:whoa

[kalidasa]

Communism is an economic structure. Democracy is a political one. There are also totalitarian capitalist countries.

Re:whoa

[calmdude]

Umm, I was in agreement with you until the last one. An organized peaceful anarchy is possible. In an anarchist society, it is possible to be organized (worker and community groups) and peaceful.

Find out more by reading a Q&A with Noam Chomsky.

Re:whoa

[maxbang]

It's West Bengal, bro, my home state in India. Last time I went over there, my cousins gave me hell for wearing my favorite red hoodie.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

What wouldnt make sense is a Capitalistic Communism or a Dictatorial Republic or Organised Peaceful Anarchy.

Someone's played too much Civilisation. A republic is defined as "A political order whose head of state is not a monarch (and in modern times is usually a president); A nation that has such a political order."

In other words, whether a country is or is not a republic doesn't depend on the way it's governed, just on who the figurehead is. Iraq was a dictatorial republic under Saddam, Soviet Russia was a dictatorial republic, and there are plenty of dictatorial republics in Africa right now.

Re:whoa

[rilister]

Kerala also has an elected communist state government - and a literacy level of over 90%.

Re:whoa

[Godeke]

Democratic elections can coexist with communist ideals, but usually the blend is called social/democratic not communist/democrating due to two things. The first is the "hot button" that the word communist represents politically, and secondly because true communism fails over a certain threshold population size. (Utopias usually were communal, and they worked until the freeloaders overloaded the system...)

You have to realize that there is a spectrum of political stances and different dimentions they go in. Mob Rule -> Representitive Democracy -> Republic -> Parlamentry Monarchy -> Dictatorship represent a rough sketch of the peoples participation in government. Communism -> Socialism -> Self Determination represent an axis of "how much support" the people should receive from government. These are rough, incomplete and off the top of my head, but you can combine any representational system with any support system, in theory. Likewise, the Capitalist -> State Run market axis is theoretically independent.

Modern usage has tended to blur the true meanings of these words. We seem to assume "Democratic" = "Representitive Democracy + Mild Socialism + Capitalism". It doesn't have to be that way.

Re:whoa

[rsidd]

"Communism" in India really means "parties that call themselves communist parties". These parties have a major presence in two states: West Bengal, where they've been in power continously for around two decades, and Kerala, where they've more or less alternated with the Congress. They have little or no presence elsewhere. Nonetheless, pre-1991 their policies weren't all that different from other Indian parties (or put another way, other Indian parties were highly socialist, almost communist, in their economic outlook). And in recent years, the government in West Bengal has been revising its economic viewpoint to a more market-friendly version, much like the Chinese government, except the Bengali one is elected, so it may soon be communist neither economically nor politically, but only in name.

Re:whoa

[Creepy Crawler]

I was trying to be subtle with the nuances of "Organized Peaceful Anarchy".

Working anarchies such as the Ikung people (search anarchy on everything2.com) are no good over about 20 people. Also, if a group of people come together (organize) and plan for rules for everyone to follow, that would be government, albeit a small one. The Ikung have rules where banishment is allowed only under extreme circumstances, which would say there's some sort of loose government to define "extreme"...

I admit "Peaceful" was a jab at the common thinking of "Mad Max" type of anarchy. Murder, Rape, Arson: what normal people think about anarchy.

Re:whoa

[lish2]

Think of it like this: Communism is an economic philosophy, compare it to capitalism. Democracy is a political philosophy, compare it to monarchy. You can mix and match. Democracy and capitalism often go together, but there's no real reason they need to.

Re:whoa

[katharsis83]

Capitalistic communism? Try China, where entrepeneuers/business-owners are allowed into the China Communist Party.

Re:whoa

[Rhubarb Crumble]

"Dictatorial Republic" Actually this would make sense. A republic is simply a state without a monarch for head of state. A military dictatorship could for instance be called a dictatorial republic.

Not in the real sense of the word, in which a republic is governed by representatives of the public. ("Res publica" = "public affair"). The original (roman) republic was governed by two consuls, one elected by each caste (plebs & patres).

However, in the 50's or so the tinpot dictators of recently independent 3rd world countries realised that people took them more seriously if they at least went through the motions of representative democracy, so they styled themselves as "President" rather than "God-king", called their country a "Republic" and held "Elections". (e.g., the last presidential election in Iraq, in which one S. Hussein got 100% of the vote).

Of course, that doesn't change what these countries are, which is despotic fiefdoms.

Re:whoa

[pete-classic]

We seem to sit on opposite ends of the economic spectrum, but socially we are at the same extreme.

From an essay I'm working on:

Anarchy. What images does the word conjure for you? Try to picture "anarchy" in concrete images.

If you are like most people you probably picture images from the news. Depending on your age you might have images from Kent State, the Watts riots, the L.A. riots. Maybe images from Central America or China.

Consider the political environment surrounding those places and times. Was it anarchy? Anarchy is the absence of government. Hardly the case in any of the above examples. In fact the sort of chaos that comes to mind is actually associated with an over-abundance of government, not its absence.

-Peter

Re:whoa

[Guillermito]

> In an anarchist society, it is possible to be
> organized

Exactly. Anarchy is often used as a synonym of "chaos". In the political sense, however, it means "absence of government". The anarchists believe, indeed, in an organized anarchist society in which little or no formal government would be needed, since it would be replaced by people's self government,

Re:whoa

[Curunir_wolf]

It sounds more like India's "democratic communism" can also be as accurately described as "Capitalistic Communism". Certainly there are capitalist markets at work there, or Prudential would not be allowed to own their own call center, and there would be no such thing as a "tech startup", since by the strictest definition, only the government can start a company.

Just as communists can be placed in charge of government by a democratic process, a communist-controlled government can promote clearly defined property rights, well-developed commercial law -- and an entrepreneurial and professional class. In fact, these things already exist in India, as does an active stock market. So, for now, at least, this Capitalistic Communism (Communistic Capitalism??) exists, whether it makes sense or not.

Re:whoa

[calmdude]

It was more a philosophical post than a practical one. I haven't heard of the Ikung people, so I can't comment on that.

Anarchy comes from the Greek anarkhos meaning without a ruler. Communal and personal rules still exist, however, there is no political authority. As Noam Chomsky would say, all socialism is not anarchy, but all anarchy is socialist.

Re:whoa

[McShazbot]

Actually, communism is a political/governmental system and socialism is an economic system. Along those lines, democracy is a political/governmental system and capitalism is an economic system.

Re:whoa

[nanojath]

It raises the interesting distinction between communism as a political philosophy and communism as it has generally been practiced. At it's most basic level, all communism means the direct and communal control of a society towards the common benefits of all members. So in fact democracy isn't mutually exclusive with this principle - a democratic decision-making process would seem to be the most sensible way for a society dedicated to direct and communal control to run things.

In the major examples of communist governments, the revolutionary ideas of Karl Marx were abused to promote the imposition of communism by force - and to the surprise of nobody with a brain and a sense of history, absolute power was found to corrupt absolutely. The leaders, who claimed to be managing the developing the communistic societies for the good of the people and the revolutionary principle, became simple despots taking advantage of their power for material gain. This demonstrates some of the inherent pitfalls of communism. If you decide that communal ownership of all property is necessary for an ideal communist society, well then somebody has to "repossess" all that property and redistribute it. As many have discovered, things don't always work out so well in that transfer.

You may not know that the Communist Party USA has been active continuously since 1919 - not a bad trick when you consider how deep anti-communist sentiments have been at times in the intervening period. They've even gotten the occasional candidate elected.

You couldn't say that India has a communist government. In fact, better minds than mine would have to explain how India is governed, because it's complicated. It is unquestionably true that world's first elected Communist government was in the Indian state of Kerala in 1957, and communist parties in India still play a role in politics today. It is interesting, and will stretch your ideas about what communism is and isn't, if nothing else (I'm not a communist, by the way, but I find the varieties of ways we try to govern ourselves interesting...)

Re:whoa

[Pentagram]

The political compass is an interesting site that classifies political viewpoints based on economic and social axes. It offers a test that attempts to define your views.

Re:whoa

[Thuktun]

"Communism" in India really means "parties that call themselves communist parties".

In the USA, we also have parties that call other parties communists.

Re:whoa

[dasmegabyte]

I wouldn't say "brainwashed." I am a child of the '80s educated in the '90s and I know a lot of people who have a healthy attitude towards communism. My father, a staunch Dittohead, is one of them. He thinks communism is stupid, but not exactly "evil."

After all, the 1950s "Communism Is Evil" campaign in the media gave way to a massive "pity our Russian brothers" campaign, signified in the east by Perestroika and in the west by, um, Billy Joel's Leningrad. We watched Russia fall apart, watched China become basically a big factory for western goods, and watched the capitalist nations' prosperity rise and fall while the communists suffered massive problems with their supply chain.

I think the "brainwashed" American viewpoint is that communism tends to de-evolve quickly into petty dictatorship, because every time it's been attempted it has evolved thusly. Communism's government control afford easy nepotism and favoratism, making it more difficult for the common man to succeed. Ask an American these days wwhy communism is "bad," and that's what they'll tell you -- it runs crosswise of the Jansenist "American Dream." The whole "communists want to kill Americans" drivel of McCarthy died long before Roy Cohn.

Of course, the offshoot of this is that communism has tainted many other progressive social practices, with some people placing every idea from unionization to government health care in the "communist" bucket. Which makes it easier to ignore potential solutions. Shit, I consider myself a fairly independent thinker, but when some cat would hand me a "Communism Now!" pamphlet, I'd make sure it found itself nessled gently in the recycle bin.

Re:whoa

[IgnoramusMaximus]

You mean this gentleman brought these kinds of riches to Chile?

You dork, whatever damage Allende did economically and no amount of self-indulgence by self-congratulatory but tiny wealthy minority of today's Chile who benefited from Pinochet's doings can possibly justify what that bastard and his backers did. You are just a brain-dead neocon who believes that obtaining "wealth" is the purpose of the universe and no cost in human lives, pain or misery is too great to achieve that goal for the priviledged few.

Re:whoa

[overunderunderdone]

No truly communist country has *ever* existed

Bull, they existed and they failed in exactly the manner that their critics predicted (devolving into brutal dictatorship, deadening bureaucracy and eventual economic stagnation). If you are saying no country has ever succeeded in implementing *working and successful* communism I would happily agree with you because such success is, and was, impossible.

All of them were/are, in the end, dictatorships.

Yes, but they were communist dictatorships. Dictatorships of the proletariat doomed to failure because those hastening the abolition of class found that the proletariat that were supposed to be dictating weren't all on the same page and needed someone else to dictate to them.

...this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat. - Karl Marx "Critique of the Gotha Programme" 1875

Re:whoa

[Rotten168]

Not in any Western sense are they "capitalist" nations.

Most dictatorships are put into place to favor the cronies of who is in charge of the government, therefor most new businesses require some kind of sanction from the state. In a "true" capitalist nation, all that is required of new business ventures is capital.

The key difference is that government cronies don't like competition whereas capitalism thrives on it.

Re:whoa

[twilightzero]

The anarchists believe, indeed, in an organized anarchist society in which little or no formal government would be needed, since it would be replaced by people's self government

I would love a state of true anarchy...except for one little proble. You see, it's been proven time and time and time again that people generally have no self governance. People, on the whole, are greedy selfish nasty little bastards. Deep down inside, after basic needs are met most people you know probably care more about their self-profit than they do about anything related to others. On top of that, they have no built-in governor that tells them "this is enough, you don't need to be richer". This is why we get greedy businesses like Enron, Worldcom, even PTL & Jim Baker. And it's not just money either, the same thing when taken to extremes leads to Hitler, Castro, Stalin, Saddam, and all their brethren in corrupt power wielding.

That's why we need government. To protect the people from themselves and each other. Because without a system of government, most people pursue single-mindedly - and without regard for others - profit and power for themselves.

Re:whoa

[Abcd1234]

Thank you for making my point:

...this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.

This stage is NOT communism! This is an intermediate state which Marx felt was necessary during the transition *to* Communism. Thus, no truly communist country has ever existed... they've all stalled out in this intermediate state and subsequently devolved into socialist dictatorships.

Even Interviews

[lake2112]

Now our interviews are being outsourced ....

Re:Even Interviews

[RobPiano]

I don't care outsourced about the outsourced part, but I do care about the quality.

Reading this slashdot interview was one of the few I read word for word down to the very end. Slashdot rarely provides content at this level. I personally would be thrilled to see actual slashdot articles and editorials written as well as this one. Perhaps I'll try writing one myself in the not to decent future, but I would really love to see some actual original slashdot content being common.

Re:Even Interviews

[elmegil]

Hell if more of it were like this "interview", it might be worth subscribing!

Re:Even Interviews

[leviramsey]

If Slashdot could offer an article of this level of insight and so forth, I'd reckon that they'd double their subscriptions.

Re:Even Interviews

[Drantin]

not to decent future
er.. distant?

Or will you be writing your article in the nude?

My question is....

[Creepy Crawler]

Why dont we see more Eastern (China, Japan, India....) Open Source software projects when they're soo good at computers?

Do they not like the idea of free knowledge exchange?

(Asked seriously, not as flamebait...)

Re:My question is....

[bobthemuse]

Why dont we see more Eastern (China, Japan, India....) Open Source software projects when they're soo good at computers? Do they not like the idea of free knowledge exchange?

If the US was as competitive as India is, do you think open source would be where it is today?

Re:My question is....

[Creepy Crawler]

"If the US was as competitive as India is, do you think open source would be where it is today?"

Yes, because they're always Idealists. Stallman comes to mind, as he made the first powerful editor available over a TTY, and gave away a multi-platform C(++) compiler.

I can make guesses of what might happen, but that's all they are. I'm asking a question for present day.

Re:My question is....

[Rhubarb Crumble]

Why dont we see more Eastern (China, Japan, India....) Open Source software projects when they're soo good at computers?

Maybe they spend a lot of time working on localisation, the results of which the "english-speaking world" never hears about?

Re:My question is....

[psycho_tinman]

Because for the most part, hardware was expensive until a few years back, and so was the cost of accessing the internet. I can only speak for South Asia, though.. because I have quite a few friends and acquaintances there. My flatmate is from China, and from what I hear, it's much the same there as well.

In most cases, computers were prohibitively expensive (until recently, when Taiwanese manufacturers and the whole clone market got off the ground) and few could afford to have much time at computers, let alone own one. If a machine is not yours, and if you can only tinker with it on and off (and you're worried about breaking it and being denied access), and if you don't even have a good internet connection, your contribution to open source software is going to be slightly lacking.

But things are changing now, so I'd expect to see more projects soon. There is a learning curve associated with joining existing projects too.

Re:My question is....

[deadmongrel]

Indians do the like the idea of free knowledge exchange. One of the oldest universities in the world was NALANDHA University in India. Inportance was given to education and is still the same. Most of the older universities did not charge you to get your education. sadly its not the situation now. The population has grown and how ever good you might be at computers you need money to survive. In a land where there are 1 billon(and counting) people finding jobs is difficult. The social structure is also different. Many of us do support our parents after graduation. so money would be in short supply. One other subtle reason would be a lot of people find jobs in microsoft related work. so not much knowledge about opensource and its benefits.

Re:My question is....

[vivekm]

As an Indian undergrad student who believes that salvation of comp sci. lies only in free/open software, my answer to that question will be that, in India the majority of the population is poor, at least as compared to international standards. We are as good programmers as those in any part of the world but the major difference lies in the kind of resources that we have and the lack of financial support to undertake open source projects. Most of us would rather grab the job that comes first in our sight and work on it, rather than wait for the ones most of us dream of.

As for the `idea of free knowledge exchange', ofcourse it is widely supported by most Indian programmers, atleast those who haven't entered the `Gates' of hell. Sarovar is one of India's contributions to the FLOSS world. A sourceforge.net clone that provides hosting for Free/Open Source Software projects.

Re:My question is....

[sskang]

The main reason is poor discretionary net access. Its is incredibly hard to be, say, a KDE developer when you have very unreliable, expensive and slow dialup net access. Most FLOSS developers start with fast connections from the universities, and then supplement their home net connections (fast or slow, whatever) with their net access at work.

When you don't have fast net access even at university (let alone the ability to host huge, high-bandwidth CVS servers like KDE did for a long time), it becomes really hard to even access free software and updates, let alone become an always-on developer.

Don't underestimate the Internet as the collaborative device that allows free software to happen. As net access becomes better here, you'll see more Indian FLOSS developers.

Re:My question is....

[Telastyn]

I've seen a bit of NetBSD code submitted by Japanese programmer(s).

Though more likely is the fact that their 'itch' is likely internationalization/localization issues which we [dumb Westerners] don't care about.

Re:My question is....

[FreshFunk510]

First of all this question reeks of racism. "They're" so good at computers? Much like asians are good at math, black people are good at sports and all Irish people like fighting?

Anyway, if asked seriously, in China the idea of "free knowledge exchange" is not exactly a popular one as it is regularly looked down-upon by the government (and is even used as a reason to prosecute people).

In India, I imagine it isn't as popular as you would think it to be because the average person does not own a computer. If you looked at the number of computers per person in America versus India, I bet it would portray a picture where India is very behind, on a broad level, in terms of technical advancement. What's the point of free knowledge exchange if you don't even have a computer (let alone an internet connection)?

Japan. Who knows? They have a history of consumer electronics and seem to be continually working to fill that niche. More recently, they seem to be filling in the mobile technology area.

Re:My question is....

[maxbang]

... when they're soo good at computers?

Are you kidding that this isn't flamebait? Did you not read the part about code-monkeys? I guess this is Slashdot, so I shouldn't expect so much. The percentage of people over there who are "soo good at computers" is equal to the percentage over here who are "soo good at computers." If you're going to stereotype, at least use a funny one, like Apu.

Re:My question is....

[andy1307]

Most Indians, even those in engineering schools, don't have unmilited access to computers. Most people who start in open source do so because they have access to a computer and take up open source as a hobby. Indian students don't have that luxury yet. However, computer penetration is increasing and you should expect to see more contributions to open source from Indians and Chinese. Remember: Individual users in India and China don't really pay for software and most people aren't hooked onto Microsoft products. These markets are ripe for open source. Sun even sold a 10k license for it's office alternative to an Indian insurance company.

In short: give it time..just 10 years ago(1994) most people in India had never worked on computer.

Re:My question is....

[ajayvb]

India has over 20 languages in widespread use, and just localizing Linux to these is a mammoth task.

A couple of projects which are worth mentioning:

Indlinux

and the Simputer

The basic limitation that I've seen is that most of us Indians are a bit more inward-looking, which means that a lot of open-source work in India looks to solve local problems.

Re:My question is....

[andy1307]

There is nothing racist about the comment. It's a cultural thing, not a racial thing. Asians born in the US tend to do well because their parents expect them to perform to their potential and failure to do so has consequences. Most blacks have athletes for role models.

Re:My question is....

[Dinglenuts]

Hey, motherfucker, leave the Irish out of this or I'll beat your ass.

Re:My question is....

[be-fan]

Then answer me why there isnt at least 1 high profile project that's ran by an Indian developer?

Um, Anjuta?

Re:My question is....

[Dave2 Wickham]

Asians are not Hindus

Asia's a continent, Hinduism is a religion. One of the main areas of Hinduism is India. India is in South Asia. Therefore a vast number of Asians are Hindus...

Re:My question is....

[christophersaul]

Wasn't Sun co-started by an Indian?

Re:My question is....

[foobar77]

I set up a software development center for our company in India (Bangalore) in 1993-94. Before choosing India, I considered China (Shenzen)/Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Phillipines, Russia, etc. I visited India, Singapore and Shenzen to meet local business and goverment officials. In the end, I chose India. In the end, there was no contest for three reasons -

I found many talented software developers with real world product experience. China and Russia has very smart programmers, but with no clue what a product is about.

They all spoke English in India. We could work directly with the engineers rather than through interpreters. (India is the 2nd largest English speaking country in the world, after the US.)

The country has a tradition of democracy and (relative and improving) free enterprise. The government bureaucrats want to help rather than cream off a share. (This wasn't true before the early 1990s).

It will take these other countries some years to duplicate these fundamental factors. I don't think there is a near-term threat to India's strengths in software development.

Re:My question is....

[Anonymous Coward]

As a Japanese native who works at a U.S. software company,
perhaps I can shed some insights into this question.

> Why dont we see more Eastern (China, Japan, India....) Open Source software projects

There is a very strong Japanese OSS scene. You don't see them in the
West because they tend to address language-specific issues. You would
not hear about mule and skk unless you need to write east Asian
languages in emacs..

Also, there are OSS projects from Japan that are of interest outside
of Asia; Ruby, the scripting language; Kame, the ipv6 project to name
a few.

Here is another sign of OSS popularity. On my last visit to Japan, I
counted no less then _four_ fancy FreeBSD monthly magazines. And how
many of these do we have in the os' native country?

> when they're soo good at computers?

Note that Corporate Japan does not produce a lot of exportable
software with the exception of Game industry. There is something very
incompatible with software creation in Japanese corporate
culture. Note that what they are "soo good" at is hardware, where they
can leverage the strengths in their efficient production.

I believe that this programmer-unfriendly corporate culture
actually fuels Japanese open source scene.

> Do they not like the idea of free knowledge exchange?

I don't think this is the case at all. On the contrary, the countries
you mentioned are less beholden to the North American and European
notion of "IP" and are more open to the concept of OSS.

In fact, the Japanese PHBs are far less likely to have the
fear and reaction often exhibited by their US counterparts
(cannot make money with something that's free, communist, etc..)
when presented with Linux opportunities.

So, OSS projects are out there in the far east; you just have to
start seeing them.

Re:My question is....

[tdhdeep]

There are plenty of open source projects written by Indians.. Anjuta (http://www.anjuta.org) is one excellent example..
Even AnyEdit is written by an Indian..

Did I forget to say that I am the author of AnyEdit...? I guess not :)

Good read, but whats the point?

[Kenja]

The problem IMHO is not the Indian workers. Hell, I feel their just geeks like us. The problem is that I, as a US programmer, am no longer allowed to compete for the jobs that get outsrouced. I for one would seriously consider doing a stint in India. However, unless I am sought out by an Indian company or get Indian citizenship I cannot apply for these jobs. This is where the problems are, all the companies touting globalization while lining their pockets are spewing bull shit. It is not globalization when you exclude local workers from even applying for the jobs. This of course brings us to the source of the problem. US companies are willing to sell out their workers and the economy for a short-term boost in stock price. They should all be ashamed and I hope they get brain cancer.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[DAldredge]

Just wait. Our tax system can not survive a large influx of people who pay next to no taxes and most of the new jobs in the US don't pay enought to require those working at them to pay federal income tax. Something will have to change

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[dankney]

I have two immediate thoughts about this post:

1.) The problem there isn't the company. If they are a publically traded company, they are required by law to do everything possible to maximize shareholder value. If they don't, shareholders can sue them for failing in this duty. If we're worried as a country about labor outsourcing, we should look into this type of regulation.

2.) Yes, these jobs are going to continue to be outsourced. If you're like me, a commodity-level geek, then your job is in danger and there's nothing you can do about it (I'm working short-term contracts at the moment, some of it is to ease the transition to out-sourcing).

If you're unhappy with that situation, then you need to do everything in your power to increase your skills and experience beyond the commodity level. Maybe that means working your way into architecture-type positions. Maybe it means going back and getting an MBA and looking at the business side of IT. But if you're planning on doing hardware support over the phone for the rest of your carrer, you're pretty much screwed.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[DAldredge]

Please reference that law.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[Kenja]

In reference to point one. There is no such law. Stock holders can sure the company if they feel the company made a poor choice that effected the value of the stock. They cannot sue if the company fails to make every last dollar they can.

As for your second point. I have a job currently. It took me six months to find. I am competing against people with doctorates for basic IT positions. To this end I am infact getting a MBA and am giving up on the programming side of my work, deciding instead to continue to focus on network engineering and IT management.

Bottom line is that as more and more people with four and six year degrees find them selves out of work, its going to be impossible for people like me to find a job. Most people I know are out of the IT industry at this point, having to work as waiters and bus drivers in an attempt to stave off bankruptcy for another year.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[beta21]

Of course you can apply for a job in India. It's the same as indians who want to work here
in the US.

Guess what though, the wait times for visas is much shorter. You have a much better deal in terms
of an american getting a job in India than an indian getting a job here.

You are right its not as easy as moving jobs from Texas to Oregon, but its still doable.
Straight from the Indian embassy:

EMPLOYMENT VISA: An appointment letter, contract letter, applicant's resume and proof that the organization is registered in India are required. Duration of visa would depend on the period of the contract.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[The Night Watchman]

Just wait. Our tax system can not survive a large influx of people who pay next to no taxes and most of the new jobs in the US don't pay enought to require those working at them to pay federal income tax. Something will have to change

Exactly, along with the simple notion that IBM's American dollars are fueling the Indian economy instead of our own. You can't pour water out of one glass into another without the water level in the first glass going down quite a bit.

Proponents of offshoring claim that it will help to create jobs, but they fail to mention exactly what kinds of jobs will be created. The US doesn't produce anything anymore. Even retail and service providers are being swallowed up by large franchises. It's not just software people getting offshored. It's anything that doesn't require actual physical presence here in the US. It's getting harder and harder to find a line of work that *won't* be offshored, but it's in my best interest to start looking now.

Back to my original point... offshoring is opening up all the valves, and American resources are now spreading to fill a much larger container. A considerable bulge in the pipes is sitting in India right now, but it's just a matter of time before India gets too demanding and the US looks elsewhere. Globalization will raise quality of life for developing countries, and lower quality of life in first-world countries. As long as the economic standards are different in each country (e.g., middle class == $10k/year), this will continue to be the case. It's as if you have thousands of people winning the same lottery and each person ends up only getting a couple grand. Resources will spread themselves out so thinly that it might require a redefinition of the monetary system itself if we don't want to live in poverty.

I don't really know where I was going in all this :-) All I know is, the world is changing. Maybe I'll just become a hermit, buy me a couple of llamas and go live in the mountains. Technology is overrated anyway...

---

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[be-fan]

You don't have to be "sought out by an Indian company." You merely need a job offer for one. Nothing prevents you from seeking those jobs yourself.

As far as I'm concerned, that's fair on both sides. I mean, they can't come here without a job offer either!

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[HumanTorch]

Yes, one of the original tenets of capitalism, mobility of labour, has been turned on its head now. Because the days of mass migrations are effectively over, labour is relatively immobile and can no longer effectively compete for the highest wage on a global scale. Conversely, because of globalization, capital has become increasingly mobile and is allowed to shop around for the lowest wage they can find, driving down wages everywhere. I think this bodes ill for workers in general, and I can only hope that labour unions arise in the wake of the continued global wave of corporate slash and burn tactics until there are no exploitable labour markets left.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[overunderunderdone]

Exactly, along with the simple notion that IBM's American dollars are fueling the Indian economy instead of our own. You can't pour water out of one glass into another without the water level in the first glass going down quite a bit.

I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusions but I take issue with this statement. it is not a "simple" notion, it is a "simplistic" one and it is just plain wrong.

The size of the economy, unlike the water in your glass, is not fixed, it grows at a variable rate (and on occasion it can shrink) influenced by a wide range of factors. It is likely that outsourcing to India has a net positive effect on the rate of growth of the world economy. It is even possible (though perhaps less likely) that it has a net positive effect on the American economy - that the growth in the American economy from lower IT costs freeing up money to invest elsewhere generates more money and jobs than those lost by IT professionals. Of course such a net benefit would have broad, marginal effects across the entire economy and be hard to attribute specifically to outsourcing (everybody pays slightly lower prices for stuff, on the aggregate new jobs and wealth are created as a result). The costs on the other hand are felt deeply by a distinct group (IT professionals that lost their job)

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[HeghmoH]

Economics is not a zero-sum game. Everybody who talks like it is needs to reinvestigate the matter, because such discussions are basically pointless ramblings with no connection to reality.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[skifreak87]

I'm currently a college sophomore and when choosing my major, the advice given to me was pretty much stay away from the IT sector. Basic economics, pay reflects supply and demand, not skill-level/education required to do the job. There's supposedly (and this does hold in many cases) a direct correlation between supply and the skill-level/education level needed for a job which is why there are statistics that the average college grad earns a lot more than the average high school grad. However, there's currently a huge supply of people who want to do programming/IT work and who are skilled enough to do it, and not nearly enough demand to support that supply. Consequently, pay will be low and many people wont find work in this sector.

Until the industry starts valuing skill more highly, which in my experience it does not*, pay will remain low because there's not much desire to attract real talent to most of these programmer/tech support/sys admin positions.

* Basic competency is all that's desired because the average person generally uses nowhere near the full capabilities of their technology. My parents were impressed when I showed them how to feed our Christmas cards into the printer and print them out instead of writing them by hand/having them professionally done. I still have friends who are in shock that it's possible, using an audio cable and an s-video cable, I can use the dvd player on my laptop to play a dvd on the TV. I also worked at a company two summers ago where they still had paperwork faxed to them instead of emailed (other companies wanted them to switch) because the owner of the company didn't understand "that tech stuff" and didn't want to deal with email.

Furthermore, a mildly-competent IT person still knows insanely more about their field than the average businessman. While skill is still recognized and appreciated, it's often not considered necessary and it's absence isn't even always recognized.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[tropicflite]

Basic economics, pay reflects supply and demand, not skill-level/education required to do the job.

Ain't THAT the truth, and it's not just IT either. I'm an airline pilot. Without trying to sound like an a**hole, we're among the most proficiently trained (and mercilessly monitored) workgroups in the world.. and like IT people, almost everyone who does this job can't imagine doing anything else. But since 9/11 and the massive layoffs across the industry, we've found out the hard way that our labor is a commodity, subject to the same ruthless rules of supply and demand.

There was a time when pilots suffered through many years of low pay in order to reap a few years of high pay, but with the glut of laid-off pilots on the market, the future's been cancelled and instead there's been a race to the bottom as we realize we're just another oversupplied labor pool that better take what it can get. And by the way, a great pilot doesn't make any more than a mediocre one... never has and (probably) never will.

So we have a choice, it seems... either do what we love, and accept that it may not pay what we want, or go for the money, and spend our lives working at something that doesn't ignite our passion.

Oh, I guess there's a 3rd choice.. we can do something that neither pays well NOR is gratifying. Most people fall into that category anyway.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[bwcbwc]

Globalization will raise quality of life for developing countries, and lower quality of life in first-world countries. As long as the economic standards are different in each country (e.g., middle class == $10k/year), this will continue to be the case.

Exactly! We have to face the fact that wages for US white collar jobs are going to seriously drop over the next couple of decades. The only question is how many of these jobs will migrate to Asia.

Since (barring new technology or an economic paradigm shift) wages are going to drop anyway, I propose a policy that will at least keep a larger percentage of the jobs in the US: Liberalize high tech worker visas for foreign workers, particularly India and China. This liberalization could take the form of allowing transfers of H1Bs between employers, renewals of H1Bs or conversion into green cards, or simply allowing a grace period to find a new sponsor before having to leave.

The downside of this is that it will accelerate the decline of wages in the US and could accelerate negative environmental impacts, but there are multiple upsides:

• Wages will increase more quickly in India and China because the supply of available programmers will shrink (or grow more slowly). This will more quickly decrease the motivation for businesses to outsource to India and China and reduce the number of jobs that actually leave.
• The equilibrium point for wages in the US will be reached more quickly and may be higher. The liberalized immigration will accelerate the convergence of the wage/price conditions in the US and India by opening the labor market here. By acquiring Indian developers before the Indian middle class grows any larger, we can introduce greater scarcity in the Indian labor market than by a slower approach where more middle class Indians will have the chance to put their children through college. Workers that emigrate to the US would have their children here, rather than in India, so we would have the benefit of those resources.
• It will help resolve the Social Security and other budget deficits by increasing the number of US taxpayers and reducing the average age of the workforce.
• Combined with tax disincentives for moving work offshore, we actually could come out ahead in the long run.

how to strike it rich

[thelonious]

1) Go to the Brazilian rain forest and locate a native tribe
2) Teach them java but keep them living in huts
3) Pay them in roots and berries
4) Let the contracts roll!!

Re:how to strike it rich

[meta-monkey]

When you have an IPO, let me know. I'm buyin'!!!

"Outsourcing"

[MillionthMonkey]

Let's note, from the start, that Prudential does not "outsource" to India. They own their own call center (or centre, depending on your spelling heritage) there. When you speak to someone in their New Delhi office, she -- and it is usually "she" -- is just as much a Prudential employee as someone working in one of their U.S. offices.

When Americans speak of "outsourcing" in this context they mean "out" as in "out of the country". What is being described here is arguably worse than outsourcing per se from our perspective since it represents a more significant investment.

Re:"Outsourcing"

[geoffspear]

Yeah, and anyone who works for Sony in the US should feel very guilty about taking the jobs of the Japanese workers who really deserve them, too. It's an abomination.

Re:"Outsourcing"

[leviramsey]

When Americans speak of "outsourcing" in this context they mean "out" as in "out of the country".

Any American who thinks that's the definition of outsourcing is an idiot who deserves to live in a cardboard box full of their own filth.

Outsourcing does not in any way shape or form imply anything about offshoring. Outsourcing is simply contracting to others work that you used to do in-house. Now, the place you go to outsource may be to Delhi, but it might as well be Denver, so far as the term "outsourcing" is concerned.

"expensive" books?!?

[SuperBanana]

there were many small, quiet sessions that revolved around using computers and the Internet to distribute information to people in neighborhoods and villages where books are now rare and expensive.

Last time I looked, for the cost of a cheap PC, you can buy dozens, if not hundreds, of books. They don't need internet connections or power, aren't affected by dust, dirt or careless handling. They also at least a couple decades.

The sad thing is, the same crap has been happening in the US for at least a decade. Yessir, Smallville has a computer in every classroom, but Johnny and Suzy need to "share" To Kill a Mockingbird because there's "no money" for more copies. The teachers have to buy supplies out of their own pockets because the school has "no money". And that computer? Sits off most of the time, or even worse, sits on, drawing inane animated pictures on the screen, running up the school's electric bill.

I strongly suggest reading Cliff Stoll's Silicon Snake Oil...

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[stratjakt]

Teachers who buy supplies out of their own pockets, are generally new college grads, teaching at the lower elementary level, (K-3) who fancy themselves the next great educator.

They want to do all those 'fun and new' activities that they read about in chickadee magazine. Because school is apparently about everything BUT learning math, english, or history.

My third grader is required to take a calculator to class because they dont want to spend time teaching kids arithmetic. Because some kids find it hard, and the argument is it discourages them and they dont like school and dont want to learn. Oh, and heaven forbid any child fail at anything. Of course, the real reason is, that its too much like work to actually TEACH the kids who have trouble grasping it.

Anyways, sorry bitch, but making papier machee monkeys to celebrate martin luther king day is not in the budget. A ditto machine and a fucking number 2 pencil was all we needed in my day.

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[lordpixel]

Many recent computer books run $50-60. You can get a cheap PC for $300. So that's 5 books to one computer.

Of course, the PC may cost more in India, and the books may cost less each.

And of course, people may have much more need for books other than computer books, and these might have lower prices due to more copies being printed (and the amount the market is willing to pay).

But your example of "hundreds" of books to one computer is way off base if you're assuming up to date technical books is what people would want.

Sure, you can probably get lots of copies of 'To Kill a Mocking Bird' for the price of a PC in India. However, I doubt that's what people in an Indian village would want to read online, had they access to the Internet.

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[TBone]

Maybe where you liev that's the case. That's not the case in such backwater states as, say, Florida.

When my daughters start school, they won't need to take calculators. They're going to need to take things like Tissues, colored cardboard, notepaper, and pencils, to share not just with her class, but the entire rest of the school, because in order to be able to affort that math teacher this year, they cut $30,000 from the supplies budget. Personally I agree that educators today are getting lazy - but you can't pass the whole buck on to that; there are some serious problems with education right now in the US that have nothing to do with Lazy and everything to do with "We can spend $100,000 on new equipment to keep us safe frmo terrorists, or we can keep those 3 teachers employed".

And thanks for bringing up dittoes. Now I'll probably get hit up for a request for 5 gallons of that ugly purple ink.

important question...

[wankledot]

Which beer Is better? I like beer, and I know quite a bit about Belgian and German beers, but not very many Indian ones. I do eat a lot of indian food, and see a few "domestic" Indian beers around the restaurants, but I don't know which is any good, or if there are some I should look for at local stores that might not be so common.

Which one would any of you folks back in Indian recommend?

Maybe we can get a flame^H^H^H^H^H beer war going here.

Re:important question...

[psycho_tinman]

I've tried Kingfisher beer. Light, not bad. Has to be better than Bud and Coors light *blech* Also something that might be called "Taj Mahal", but I am not sure.

For a real flameout though, try "Old Monk" whiskey (if that's what it is). Has a kick like a mule, and a little goes a very very long way :)

Re:important question...

[bot]

Back in India I drank Kingfisher.. not had it in a while. Heard they do a mighty nice swimsuit special too!

Re:important question...

[spaceman harris]

Cobra: the less fizzy lager, low carbonation is an asset when eating spicy stuff. www.cobrabeer.com

Kingfisher: low cal, and good in hot weather.

Hmmmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

Notice that this interview was answered weeks or months faster than any other one I've seen here. Maybe these companies outsourcing are onto something...

Caste?

[dr_dank]

I would love to know where the Caste system comes into play in modern India. Would lower caste members (the $35/month servants) have any shot at these tech jobs?

Re:Caste?

[gokulpod]

Generally speaking, the lower classes in India are poorer and less educated than higher classes. This has lead to a situation where the middle and upper classes are the oringinal high-class people (brahmins, kshatriyas etc), while the poorer people are from the lower classes (the shudras).

Therefore it is very rare to see a lower class person take up a white collar job since their education levels are much lower. The government on India does reserve certain seats in colleges etc for these classes (analogous to affirmative action in US), but the quality of such graduates is questionable.

I have a few friends from "lower classes", and among the younger educated folks, there isnt as much discrimination as before. But overall, the situation for the lower classes is not heart warming.

Quality of Medical Care

[dotsbir]

Wow, was that medical care comment a blunder. If you've got money (and in the same vein as the food comments, having money really only means having 5-10% of the equivalent in US dollars) then the medical care is superb and includes ICU care and hospital day stays that are UNHEARD OF in the USA nowadays. The valve hardware itself would cost $10k more in the US to cover litigation / malpractice costs.

A friend of mine's aunt ended up having open heart surgery for a valve replacement in Baroda India. She had it at a private surgicenter with excellent Indian U.S. trained physicians with follow-up and post-op ICU care for less than $8000. The equivalent cost in the USA would have been $50k minimum with ICU days costing another $9k-$15k per DAY, with additional costs for the anesthesiologists and for the surgeons.

Have you noticed how many Indian doctors there are in the USA? A lot of them were fully trained and board certified in India before even coming to the united states. A lot of Indians who go to the US for medical training (medical school, residency, fellowships) often come back to India to open their own hospitals and clinics.

Their is very little insurance hassle in India because there is very little insurance. Major med procedures are often paid for with cash. I don't know about the mortgage situation currently but more than ten years ago, mortgages were unheard of. You'd buy houses when you had the cash to afford one and most often had them built to your own specifications.

Re:Quality of Medical Care

[michael_cain]

A friend of mine's aunt ended up having open heart surgery for a valve replacement in Baroda India. She had it at a private surgicenter with excellent Indian U.S. trained physicians with follow-up and post-op ICU care for less than $8000. The equivalent cost in the USA would have been $50k minimum with ICU days costing another $9k-$15k per DAY, with additional costs for the anesthesiologists and for the surgeons.

Considering the local costs of living that are described elsewhere in these comments, is this so out of line? Those comments indicate that an upper-middle-class lifestyle costs about $12,000 per year over there. $8,000 is two-thirds of that. Suppose an upper-middle-class lifestyle in the US requires an income of $90,000 (some would suggest that the cost is higher than that). Two-thirds of that is $60,000, which is on the same order as what you cite as the expense in the US. The interesting difference appears to be the difference in the availability of insurance. Roughly 60% of the US population is covered by some form of health insurance, either private or provided by the government. What percentage of the Indian population is covered? Since someone with an income of $90,000 in the US can afford health insurance (barring cases with expense, chronic conditions, who can't buy private insurance at any price), I assume that someone making $12,000 in India can also afford health insurance.

All About the Cost of Living

[kisrael]

$11,000 = a decent middle class life in India.

That's really what it all comes down to. I got that from the recent Wired article and this pretty interesting set of responses confirms it.

That's 1/4 of what I was making fresh out of school in 1996.

I guess I don't understand how in a "global economy", that kind of difference in the cost of living survives, and how it ties in with things like inflation and other economic factors.

Is it basically that there are SO many poor people in India, that that somehow keeps the costs of the basics down? And that the USA couldn't have a similar situation without that level of poverty?

Amazing. I wonder what the future of global living standards is going to look like.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[Kenja]

"I guess I don't understand how in a "global economy", that kind of difference in the cost of living survives, and how it ties in with things like inflation and other economic factors."

Easy, its not a "global economy". If it where I could go to India and get a job paying 11k a year and live off that. However they dont allow US tech workers to work over there unless you get sponsored by an Indian copany. Thats a local, protectionist economy. Not that this is a bad thing, I just wish the US corps would stop trying to tell me that their outsourceing because of globilization rather then because they want a new summer home.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[easter1916]

Take a class in economics. This is very simple stuff to understand. Why does the cost of living differ between NYC and, say, St. Louis? Same thing, less extreme.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[__aanebg9627]

How does it survive? It doesn't! The work goes where there is a 'comparitive advantage', if the economic system is working correctly. Right now, India oddly enough has a 'comparative advantage' in educated work; its educated people have been severely under-employed compared to educated people in the U.S.. The reason things are shifting *now* is that the cost of transporting their work from one market to another has dropped immensely because of the internet. On the other hand, the work of the uneducated is largely manual labor, and the transportation costs of moving that work between markets has changed a lot less. (Besides, the products of the manual work have been protected in the U.S. for most of the last century. The U.S. *still* has trade restrictions on textiles!) A third thing is also going on -- the U.S. is being lent a lot of money from the rest of the world (esp. China and Japan). For this reason, the U.S. dollar is far, far higher than it should be. So you can adjust that cost-of-living figure somewhat for an overvalued dollar. Don't be surprised if, in a few years, the dollar has dropped so much that you see more like "$22,000 = a decent middle class life in India"

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[Tablizer]

The reason things are shifting *now* is that the cost of transporting their work from one market to another has dropped immensely because of the internet.

In a Planet-of-the-Apes-ending tone of voice:

Damned You DARPA, Tim Burners, and Al Gore! Damn You To Hell!

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[RalphSlate]

Yes, that's excactly it.

Here are the "advantages" that India has over the US.

1) A lot of poor people and no social programs supporting them. Think of how much of your paycheck goes to Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, and other social programs. And think of how much of your employer's payroll taxes go to that stuff too. And then think about all the other taxes you pay to support people who aren't employed at livable wages. If your pay was cut by that amount, and your employers taxes were cut by that amount, you'd be in exactly the same place but making 30% less. We are no longer in a position to choose to have social programs. Competition from abroad is dictating that we eliminate all of them.

2) The servants. I think I could work harder if I could pay someone $35/month to do all my personal work. But having servants, especially low-paid servants, is frowned upon here in the US, and people won't generally work for so little since the government supports them at a much higher level. But if we eliminate our social programs, then maybe people will be willing to be our servants once again.

3) Medical. It sounds like the care you get in India is cheaper, but you get less too. People in this country need to ask some ethical questions, for example, "how much should be spent to save a life". When someone spends $300k to keep their 90 year old grandmother alive for an extra month, perhaps that is excessive. So we may have to make some hard choices (for example, should we spend a couple hundred thousand saving your baby that is born 2 months premature) in order to get our costs in line with India. In essence, we should not save the lives of anyone not capable of being a productive member of society. Any country that does will have higher costs.

But here's the insidious problem with this all. Capitalism is designed to LOWER costs. That means paying the least amount of benefits possible. Since people in other countries have it far worse than we do, the only way we can compete is to lower our benefits to their level. We can't rely on that "productivity" factor because it is no longer US Corporations vs. Foreign Corporations -- it's US Corporations against the workers that cost the most. Any innovation is immediately shared with the low-cost workers, and the benefit is negated.

So in other words, the only way to compete with India is to become exactly like India, or to get India to be exactly like us. But the latter won't work, because our corporations will just move the work to some other country. That means the former will be the more likely outcome.

Is everyone comfortable with that?

Nitpick on the cricket

[rsidd]

The upcoming India-Pakistan series is by no means "the first time ever". The two countries played each other regularly until the 1980s; India last visited Pakistan in 1989, and since then Pakistan visited India once, in 1998-99. They have also met at other tournaments including the world cups.

Re:Nitpick on the cricket

[rsidd]

Not only that, but to whoever modded it offtopic: it's no more offtopic than communism, to which much verbiage and many modpoints are currently being devoted. In fact, cricket is arguably much more central to a typical Indian's worldview, to India-Pakistan relations and diplomacy, and many other things.

See? Trickle down works

[dreamchaser]

I grew up in a very poor village. My father made $10 per month as a schoolteacher. One bicycle was our only family transport. I went to college as a scholarship student. I did well in my exams, so the government paid for my education. Now I own two houses, and the workers I hired to build both of them had no other work, so that helped bring money into my village. My father and mother live in a house I built, too. I rent out one of the houses I own now and live in the other one. The money I earn spreads through the economy. Fathers work at better jobs because of my spending and can keep their children in school instead of having them go out to work early

And that is exactly how supply side ('trickle down') economics worked. It worked in the 80's and it's starting to work now, too.

It is good to see that some good is coming out of off shore outsourcing, at least.

Of course, this will get modded down because libertarian or conservative views get an automatic -1 (Not Liberal) here most of the time ;)

Re:See? Trickle down works

[javiercero]

Yup 3 million jobs lost in the past 3 years, your "trickle down" politics are working wonderfully!

Congrtulations keep up the good job!

Re:See? Trickle down works

[Sebastopol]

This is how trickle down is supposed to work. One could argue the trickle down will stop working in India for the same reason it failed in the 80s: greed --

CEOs got tax breaks and used the money for huge bonuses, then hired illegal immigrants to build their multi-million dollar heated pools for their chalets in Colorado -- and then rather than investing in the community, closed factories and moved overseas to boost profits and increase bonuses.

That's why today we have a stock market boom and increasing unemployment. From my liberal viewpoint, tax increases boosted the economy by balancing the budget, stabilizing the prime rate, and reversing the greed that broke the trickle-down theory.

Now I'll get a: "-1 (Anti-Reagan)" ;-)

Re:See? Trickle down works

[happyfrogcow]

It would work, but remember the statistic that says something like "10% of the population controls 90% of the wealth" (real stats may vary, but it's something like that). That 90% of the wealth is tied up in personal accounts making more money for it's master. A litre of that might be diffused into the atmosphere and trickle down to the local economies. The only work trickle down economics did in the 80s was shift the load to the 90s and beyond. Middle/Upper middle class spent while corporate leaders reaped the benefits. Their pockets are lined with gold and silver still.

I agree that it *could* work, but the wealth of the top 10% is stagnant and won't trickle anywhere.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[spun]

Oh, god, that tired old cliche. Libertarian views get modded down here? What version of slashdot do you read? Conservatives get modded down when they are morons, but Libertarians never get modded down. 4 out of 5 slashdotters is probably libertarian leaning.

And 'Voodoo Economics,' a.k.a. trickle down, never works. It didn't work here. It isn't working now, not here, not there. Look at our recovery. All the money is going to the rich. We aren't even making new jobs fast enough to keep up with population growth. There may be a lot of poor people in India, but I bet they don't have nearly the income and wealth disparity that we have. Rich people in this country long ago got so rich that trickle down can't possibly work. Rich people just don't spend extra money building up the local economy any more.

Smart people get modded up here all the time, whether they are liberal, libertarian, or conservative. In fact, those labels are tired and worn out, they don't accurately describe most people nowadays. There is more to politics than left and right. People who try to get the rest of us to divide up and fight each other just want to take advantage of the chaos to stay on top.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[spaceman harris]

I'm not sure that that story illustrates Trickle Down economics, or any sort of macroeconomic theory.

Trickle Down is also known as "supply side", money is spent by the government to give to industry or investors so that the economy will grow, either through tax-cuts, spending or subsidy. The instance that is alluded to here is fiscal policy under Reagan in the 80s, where money was spent on weapons, tax cuts for investors. The goal is to increase the supply of production

The flip side is "demand side economics", this is classic Keynesian policy where money is put in the hands of consumers through pension payments, government services, entitlements or by creating state companies to give out jobs (ie the Hoover Dam). This is used in lots of places, but Keynes' theories were based on Roosevelt in the 30s.

This story actually seems more indicative of demand side economics, or "trickle up" economics.

But let me guess... you don't care.

India needs a little of both these policies, but promarily it needs to focus on reducing corruption, encouraging fair Foreign Direct Investment and a good education system. All of which are aided through the outsourcing described in the article.

Do you know where your source code comes from?

[Kunta Kinte]

Several points...

(i) Do you know where the code you use everyday comes from? That is, how do you know how much and at what rates Far-Easterners contribute to open-source? Should every project carry the nationality of the core developers?

(ii) Poorer countries have very limited access to the internet. Something very needed for the research and communication needed for building and managing an open-source project. I had this problem with my native home.

(iii) You need to have your basic needs comfortably taken care of before you can take time to develop software for free. That's true for any person anywhere I think, and very important if you're building a non-trivial project. I have this problem now.

(iv) Language differences may also hinder these projects.

Re:Question still unanswered....

[FooGoo]

Stolen from a website:
THE HOLY dot -- chandlo or bindi -- is auspicious makeup worn by young Hindu girls and women on their foreheads.

Bindi is derived from bindu, the Sanskrit word for a dot or a point.

The positioning of the bindi itself is significant. The area between the eyebrows is known to be the seat of latent wisdom. It is said to control the various levels of concentration attained through meditation. It signifies the mystic third eye.

The bindi, normally a vermilion mark, has a religious significance and is a visible sign of a person belonging to the Hindu religion.

A bindi also denotes female energy and is believed to protect women and their husbands.

Traditionally a symbol of marriage, it has now become a decorative item and is worn today by unmarried girls and women of other religions as well.

For a Hindu bride, the red colour of her bindi is supposed to promise prosperity for the home she is entering.

The mark makes her the preserver of the family's welfare and offspring. It is a symbol of auspiciousness, good fortune and festivity.

Significantly, when an Indian woman becomes a widow, she has to stop wearing this mark.

Myth is that the bindi protects the wearer from the bad eye of people but today the religious significance of the bindi is largely forgotten and it is worn as a fashion accessory.

The old, traditional bindi, kumkum, has been largely replaced by the "sticker-bindi".

Made of felt, with glue on one side, this is an ingenious easy-to-use substitute. It comes in all colours and designs: sequinned or studded with beads and glittering stones in different sizes. The price range depends on the texture, elaborate work and size.

Bindis hold a fascination for many for their attractive features.

It is an adornment that lights up your face and gives it a focal point.

The trend of wearing bindis these days is a fashion statement that is sweeping the west.

Singers like Madonna, Gwen Stefani and Shania Twain can even be seen on MTV wearing bindis.

Keep in mind the statistics...

[cavemanf16]

I noticed the interview kept mentioning that the 'middle class' in India constituted only 10-15% of the entire population of India. Well at 1 billion people +, that equates to 100,000,000 - 150,000,000 middle class Indians. When the US only has a population of 350,000,000 (a guesstimate) TOTAL, that Indian middle-class appears quite large in comparison. With the college tuition rates, government subsidies, and other factors in effect in India, it appears to me that they are primed to quickly over-take the U.S. as the premier investment opportunity for the world within the next 10 years or less. Those of us in America had better not become too comfortable with our posh standards of living as they currently are. I fear they will not last much longer.

Re:Keep in mind the statistics...

[gokulpod]

The figures you quote are true, but there is one major factor missing. To qualify as middle class in India, you don't need to earn a lot. About Rs. 10,000 (approx $250) a month, and you will be considered lower-middle class. At over Rs. 50,000 a month (approx $1100) a month, and you may well be categorised as upper middle class. So the US middle class has much more buying power than the Indian middle class.

Semantics

[FreshFunk510]

"Let's note, from the start, that Prudential does not "outsource" to India. They own their own call center (or centre, depending on your spelling heritage) there. When you speak to someone in their New Delhi office, she -- and it is usually "she" -- is just as much a Prudential employee as someone working in one of their U.S. offices."

With all due respect, who cares? Who cares what word you use to describe the loss of jobs to a foreign country? "Employed" or "Outsourced". Either way the final result is the loss of an American job to a foreign counterpart.

good to know

[Savatte]

After a few evenings hanging out with Delhi LUG guys (and yes, it's almost entirely guys)...

the language changes, but the LUG demographics stay the same wherever you go. Refreshing!

Chills up my spine

[Tablizer]

There is no shortage of people to do any kind of decent-paying work in India, period. The Army turns down at least 19 out of 20 applicants who want to be enlisted soldiers, and turns down 49 out of every 50 officer candidates, who must have college degrees even to apply in most cases....This goes back to that whole "one billion people" thing.

Scary. Very very scary. Brains are indeed becomming a very cheap commodity. Whatsa nerd going to do in the future? Or even now? Our skills have no value in the marketplace anymore.

Re:Chills up my spine

[dotsbir]

I don't know if the situation is brains ... becoming a very cheap commodity so much as it is a situation of having a larger pool of applicants to pick from. Example: High School Valedictorians may be very smart relative to their classmates, but put bunches of them together at a top-tier college or university and suddenly you've got people who had gotten used to being the head of the class suddenly in the middle of the back or even the bottom third! Well, imagine that instead of taking SATs and filling out college application forms and sending in small checks for the applications to get into university, you actually had to sit down and take a competitive exam to get into college. Now imagine that this competitive exam is taken not just by your high-school mates but by the top-tier of high-school graduates-to-be from your whole state. If you're applying to IIT, your competition is the top-tier from throughout the country. So we're talking about the cream of the crop of a billion bodies and brains, hustling just as hard, if not harder, to get into the coveted educational slots in engineering or medicine or law. And possible speculation: having to continue your education amidst these very competitive students might make you learn more.

Re:Dupe?

[WIAKywbfatw]

You're either a troll or an ignorant fool or both.

The cost of living is significantly cheaper in India, by at least an order of magnitude. Everything, from food, to housing, to transport, to you name it is cheaper there. Most white collar workers not only earn a comfortable living, but they can afford to employ other people (ie, servants) to do all the menial stuff, like cooking and cleaning.

If you think that you can achieve the same level of comfort (eg, a household where you do little more than eat, sleep and enjoy yourself) in the US in the equivalent job then you're deluding yourself.

I've bet you've never even left the US let alone been to India. I have, and I can tell you that most white collar Indians live relatively stress-free lives compared to those of us in the West. You were saying something about quality of life?

My true anecdote...

[rilister]

I visited Madras in 1997. While I was there I walked up to a temple overlooking the city - you had to climb up a 1000 steps or whatever to get there, so by the time you reach the top, you're a fair way out of the city. Sorry, but I don't remember the specific names.

Anyway, over the other side of this hill, facing away from the city is what you might call 'the ghetto' - low quality ad-hoc housing built from metal sheeting. Kind of the place you don't feel totally comfortable wandering around.

A kid approaches us (probably 12-14yrs old) and asks us who we are, where we're from. He speaks good english and is chatty. He points out his house below us - it's basic living. We make small talk.

After I while I ask him - '...so - what do you want to do when you grow up?'

'I'm going to be a C++ programmer'

I'm shocked and impressed. 'Wow. You have a computer?' I look at his house again. It may have electricity.

'No, I have a book. But I'm learning.'

-with that kind of enterprise and foresight, I can never begrudge an out-sourced Indian programmer his living.

Re:My true anecdote...

[cybermace5]

I was saying similar things when I was eight. I knew I was going to be an engineer. I got books and learned from them, and experimented with electronics even though I didn't have enough money to buy expensive test equipment. Now that I have graduated from college, it's very difficult to find any work.

Can you look back at the me of 16 years ago, poring over the guts of an old alarm clock trying to figure out how it works, and begrudge me my living?

Re:My true anecdote...

[stuffduff]

When I became interested in computers, all I had was a book. And even that book was way out of date. This was the spring of 1967; a time before ic's and dip's. I have an adder board that was state of the art at the time, there were pairs of transistors as big as pencil erasers stuck in plastic blocks on the daughter boards that went to the main that pluged into a Philco-Ford computer's backplane. Both the board and the book fascinated me, and I never looked back. Within 3 months I had a different book: The IBM giude to the WATFOR Compiler, and the Fortran IV code I scribbled out on notebook paper actually got punched out on cards and run through an early IBM 360.

Now when I see someone like that it makes me feel good!

A message to India

[Pee-Wee]

I just wanted to take a moment and say nice job you guys. This is very impressive to me. Each one of you are working hard to improve your lives and your country. I have a huge amount of respect for that. Very nice work!

Brian

Wisdom vs Money

[stuffduff]

While India has long been associated with poverty from an economic standpoint, the Indian culture has, in general, a far greater respect for wisdom and knowledge than anything we see in Europe or America. So I'm glad to see that the recognition of wisdom and knowledge are helping to 'bootstrap' a new culture. I just hope that no one loses site of the values that enabled the recognition of the opportunity! I'd hate to see the respect of traditional values be destroyed by the desire for money. Wisdom may well give rise to money, but all too often money stupifies and blinds the wealthy to the value of wisdom.

There's one in every crowd...

[RobertB-DC]

Quite an honor to get the lead question, and even cooler to know that people in India now have the opportunity to question my clarity of thought!

Others echoed his reply, and a few thought the questioner wasn't "thinking very clearly." One Perl programmer asked, "Does he think we don't have email lists and Web sites? We are techies. We stay in touch all over the world. We know what's going on everywhere, same as you."

Consider me properly chastened. However... the reason I asked the question is because it's a topic that came up while talking to a fellow programmer of Indian heritage. She pointed out the H1-B visa's hidden pitfalls as a problem in the Indo-Pak community.

I guess the answer to my question is that *most* H1-B recipients knew what they were getting into, though a few either didn't do their research or chose to ignore the warnings. Which sounds like a pretty universal situation -- as the interviews showed, we're more alike than different.

But just one little swipe. When the Perl programmer questioned my fuzzy thinking, he said "We know what's going on everywhere, same as you." Well, despite all the time I spend on Slashdot, I *don't* know what's going on everywhere, and I can't imagine that Mr. Perl does, either... Oh, well, there's one know-it-all in every crowd.

Who's the Brian Lehrer fan?

[PollGuy]

One of you slashdotters called WNYC's Brian Lehrer show this morning as he was talking about outsourcing. You said that you have been a programmer for 22 years and are now expensive to hire. You said that this issue has been a hot topic on Slashdot for years and you were glad that it was finally getting some mainstream press (especially now with the Mankiw debacle).

Just wanted to say thanks. I totally concur on your last point -- I've been waiting years for this to hit a critical mass on a non-geek forum. Funny it waited until an election year.

Re:Who's the Brian Lehrer fan?

[stratjakt]

That was me.

I messed up.

What I meant to say was: "BABA BOOEY BABA BOOEY BABA BOOEY HOWARD STERNS PENIS!"

But that would be too many caps, so says the slashdot crapfilter.

Huge Problem

[DRue]

Most people I talked to believe government is the only hope; that egovernment and other government projects are the only way to develop a sustainable local IT sector.

With that attitude, things will never change. They need to be entrepenuers (sp?) and build their own market from the ground up. It won't work top down style sitting around waiting for the gov't to start ordering technology. Computers are cheap (even there) - start using them.

Re:Code mo[a]nkey Indians

[bot]

Not a whole lot of Nobel prize winners.. but there have been some:

• RABINDRANATH TAGORE (1913) - Literature
• CHANDRASHEKAR VENKATA RAMAN (1930) - Physics
• HARGOBIND KHORANA (1968) - Medicine
• MOTHER TERESA (1979)- Peace
• SUBRAMANIAN CHANDRASHEKAR (1983) - Physics
• AMARTYA SEN (1998) - Economics

There have been open source contributions by Indians- maybe not major ones yet. Take a look on sourceforge. I'm there :-)

Step ???, there is NO step ??? !!!

[Thud457]

Correction to your correction:

1. Go to the Brazilian rain forest and locate a native tribe
2. Teach them java but keep them living in huts
3. Be generous and pay them $0.30 / day
4. Profit!!
5. Open a McDonald's Franchise
6. Get them addicted to Big Macs
7. Profit!^2

Re:Enjoy it while you can..

[swb]

This is not entirely a trollish statement. A friend of mine with a PhD in history says that the US is setting the stage for either a Balkan-style civil war over cultural values clashes caused by non-integrating cultures and language gaps, or a neofascist government brought to power for economic and social reasons.

He's rather convinced that blacks and whites will align due to their closer shared history than any other group, although he said that a large muslim immigration would favor a white/black/mexican alliance on religious grounds.

While I think he's largely crazy, look closely at the areas of the world where divergent cultures and geogrpahy match up -- the Balkans, the Middle East, Southern Russia. It's easy to dismiss these conflicts as the products of recent history, but the historical reality is a massive back and forth for centuries.

I doubt that our capitalist spirit, where making a buck is our strongest value, will allow us to have that kind of situation, but its not entirely out of the question.

about Chile's example

[Anonymous Coward]

Chileans democratically elected a Marxist president (or Marxist-Leninist, as the chilean right-wing likes to say). But the U.S. didn't like it. So, in September 11th (1973) Allende was killed/killed himself. And then an ultra right-winged capitalist dictatorship ruled us for 17 years. We still feel the open sores.

We had both. Ironic, isn't it?

Anyway, Allende's government was not a good one, and surely a reelection was not expected. That's the way it should ended, democratically.

great

[Anonymous Coward]

All the Delhi LUG crowd reads Slashdot.

More competition for American jobs and the elusive the first post.

Re:Enjoy it while you can..

[kahei]

All the links on
http://www.tancredo.org/issues/issues.htm
see m to be broken.

I am currently unimpressed with Mr. Tancredo's bid for power :)

Here's the culprit right here

[JustAnotherReader]

I met programmers who lived in apartments and houses that cost anywhere between $200 and $500 per month.

So what we really have is this scenario:

1. US software companies tend to exist in Silicon valley, Orange County, San Diego County, and Boston. These are also the most expensive places in the country to live.
2. US software companies don't seem to want to allow telecommuting when their employees live within driving distance of work. They certainly don't want to allow it when the employee lives in, for example, Kentucky.
3. That means that the employees need to make wages high enough to afford housing in these markets. How do you pay a mortgage of $2500 to $4000 a month if you're not making $90k to $120k a year?
4. The US employees average car loan cost him $350 a month, plus auto insurance, plus gas (which hovers around $2 a gallon here in California).
5. So the US employee has NO CHOICE but to live in the expensive part of the country because the companies are too short sighted to see the benefit of letting their employees telecommute from places where the cost of living is cheaper. And yet isn't this EXACTLY what outsourcing is? It's just hiring employees who telecommute from a place where the cost of living is cheaper.
6. Therefore: US employees must have higher wages to maintain a middle class standard of living that would cost 30% to 50% less in other areas of OUR OWN country.
7. Employers then make the dumb-ass decision that "US programmers are too expensive" and they move the jobs offshore to India instead of using any of the easily available and less morally bankrupt cost cutting tools available to them.

   • The software companies caused their own problem. Our own government make the problem worse by keeping instrest rates so low that housing prices (not value, but prices) have skyrocketed. It's not the programmer's fault that the jobs in this country exist where they do, but we're the ones who are getting screwed.

     If US companies had enough foresight to see beyond the tips of their own noses they would realize that they could save money simply by outsourcing jobs to the midwest. Keep American jobs, keep the tax base here in America, and take the higher moral road.

     Have any of these companies thought about where their customers will come from when the middle class and upper middle class in America are no longer working AND no longer contributing to the tax base? There's more to outsourcing than me losing my job. This is the straw that will break America's already overloaded economic back.

Computers more like a LIBRARY than a book

[seawall]

Books/Computers is changing question and we are nearing a tipping point as traditional book costs continue to remain stable (or go up) and computer costs go down.

Schools try to train for tomorrow as well as today. They don't alweays succeed but:

If you have something like a lowend Palm and an internet connection (possibly shared by many) all of a sudden you have a LOT of public domain, classic books, available for very near no cost. Although a library might have 6 copies, the net has as many copies as you have devices to display them.

In some domains, like 19th century english literature: computers are cheaper than traditional books now and I expect that trend to continue.

This is, of course, probably less true in some places than others and books currently mostly have the edge but the trend is probably worldwide and longterm.

I expect traditional books to remain a common item throughout my life but probably not the life of my grandchildren. Makes me a little sad.

OPA

[dillon_rinker]

Organised Peaceful Anarcy makes perfect sense.

Anarchy means no government. Peaceful anarchy is probably the only form possible, as violent anarchy leads rapidly to rule by the strongest man with the biggest stick. An organized peaceful anarchy would be one in which there was no government but much coordination. I'd see the organization as having a more economic than political role, though. Without some organization, you might wind up with everyone growing grapes and no one growing hops, and that would be a tragedy.

I'll grant that organized peaceful anarchy is unstable (tending toward violent disorganized anarchy) and it probably wouldn't last for a real long time, but then, in the scale of human history, neither does democracy.

Re:distribution of wealth

[blighter]

That might be a problem in India or other places where the modern economy hasn't fully penetrated, but not so much in the U.S.

Bill Gates doesn't keep all his money in a stack of mattresses or in a giant money-bin a la Scrooge McDuck, most of his wealth is in the form of Microsoft stock, which money is being used by Microsoft. You might disagree with how it's being used, but it is not sitting around doing nothing.

And this is generally true of the very, very wealthy. The amount of money that they keep "out of circulation" is usually a very small percentage of their total worth. This is because they don't hoard gold or physical money, their wealth is invested; investment allows for growth and economic development. Even money that they are keeping as "cash" is usually in the form of bank deposits where it is re-lent out to finance other opportunities.

At any rate. I don't want to get off into a whole rant about the capitalist system being mis-understood and mis-interpreted, but know that it is there! ; )

slashdot feature

[moojin]

this was a really interesting post and response. could we do something like this for other countries like China, Philippines, Korea, Russia, Ireland, England, etc. it would be very interesting to learn about other IT professionals / slashdot geeks all over the world and their perspective of certain tech issues like off shore outsourcing, open source movement, etc.

One question I would have liked to see

[The Slashdolt]

One question I would have liked to see asked is about intellectual property laws. Copyrights and things of that nature. As the interview states, many of our Indian brethren read slashdot so maybe one of them can reply to this. My question is about what kind of IP laws exist in India in comparison to US laws. Are US copyright laws valid there? What is to stop a company from outsourcing to India, and then having the company in India take that new IP and later compete with the company that originally outsourced to it?

Re:One question I would have liked to see

[Brahmastra]

India Business Law Guide

Tied up wealth

[nuggz]

Sorry money never gets "tied up".
The only place close would be in government bonds, which are now basically tools to control the money supply.

If you have a lot of money, you own companies (outright or in stock), or you loan it out (bonds, money market investments, or a bank account).

The money is still there, being invested and growing both the investment and the economy at large.

FWIW I'd hope that Bill G pays little in taxes compared to his wealth. You should pay taxes on income, not only on assets. I'd be really pissed if the gov started taxing my emergency fund, or the money I was saving to [buy a house, go to school, retire on].

Cost Model

[GodLived]

I wonder how the typical American IT company accounts for risk in their cost model when trying to decide whether to outsource. Risks can come from several factors:

• Import/export laws governing types of code/technology transfer to a certain country, noting that laws change with the wind depending on who's in power
• Economic equity, e.g., how well the rupee is doing against the dollar
• Labor policy disparity - American unions vs. Indian unions in non-IT related firms

Another way to look at it - offshore outsourcing seems to have some of the same risks as telecommuting, for both the companies and the employees... and look how well telecommuting has been accepted in the U.S.!

What realy puzzles me...

[Qbertino]

..is that in general, people (geeks and non-geeks) don't seem to see that massive IT work on a beehive scale probably isn't going to last very long in india either.
99% of software related work I do today I do with software that I get for free of the net. It's called OSS.

What's still missing in the OSS dept?

Feasable ERP and usable Multimedia (video NLE/Compositing, animation, 3D). And games maybe.
What else? Niche stuff at most.

That being said, wouldn't it be cool for western geeks to collect something like the 100 000 $ for Blender to have a large team in india do some grunt work on XFree, GNU Enterprise or something else? Or maybe the base for the blender 3.0 redoo, with NLE, NLA, crystal space engine integration and all that?

Some 50 programmers or so could actually make a living over there and we'd all be on the winning side. I personally would LOVE to call myself a sharehoplder of the 'Indian Team OSS Group' or so. What do other slashdotters think about this? Am I making sense?

Re:What realy puzzles me...

[Qbertino]

Who is going to be writing open source software when where all unemployed and unable to purchase computers when our current ones breakdown?

IT Unemlployment isn't going to grow indefinitely.
IT jobs are shifting to service rather than coding and selling closed source.This will also bring back jobs to where the customers are. And it will even strengthen OSS.
Closed source and large proprietary software families are a thing of the past. That's the big thing that's changing. And that's the only reason it's actually feasable to outsource big time. Whenever an industry does that it's about to change big time anyway. That doesn't mean we're all going unemployed for the rest of our life. I lost a job as a developer and now do freelance stuff with lot's of OSS and a strong service orientation, close to the people in other fields of business. That 40 hrs. keypunching on proprietary stuff is _never_ going to come back. Not for me it is anyway.
And in the end, I thank God for it. Now i sit at my desk or laptop for half the time at most. The rest of the time I go out, talk to customers and am much closer in touch with reality than any coder could ever be. I know I'll get my customers top-range software for nearly all their need for zero money and they'll gladly pay me to custom design and programm their supply chain management, rich media framework, web-cms or whatnot. And in the end I get to GPL the code!
Dig it: My customers _pay_ me to do _real_ fun computer stuff, they are thankfull for me doing it and in the end I can publish it as OSS. I got layed off and I adapted and I'll _never_ look back!

Once again, to all coders out there:
8.5 hrs a day keypunching proprietary software along with selling closed source is deader than a doornail and is done with.
- - - IT IS OVER! - -
The last stuff that proprietary can do to make money is so measyly IT HAS TO BE DONE BY SUPER CHEAP LABOR.
And that, my dear geek friends IS A GOOD THING for the _global_ economy!
Coding has become a service and custom craftmanship and ceased being a assembly line mass production. Get that into your skull and fucking adapt. The earlyer, the better.
I thought /. was a place of future and OSS aware geeks...

Cheez, coming to think of it, I guess I should consider myseld lucky being layed off early enough.

Price Dumping?

[khrustalicious]

Very interesting article.

My question would have been what about price dumping? We (the US) don't allow government-supported industries to dump product here for many reasons.

Isn't this the same thing?

It was pointed out in the article how difficult it is to find work in India. So these outsourcing companies can exploit their workers, making them work for free for the first few months, and pay them relatively low wages, then advertise with US companies how much cheaper and better their product is.

How is this not price dumping? And if it is, maybe the other debate is, should we not care? Global economy, yada yada, if they want to dump, let 'em?

where to whoa

[boarder]

This govt is in the states of Kerala and, IIRC, West Bengal. I did some travelling in Kerala and ended up stuck in the middle of a huge communist rally. It was really eery, being from the US and growing up in the cold war era, to be surrounded by red flags and banners like that.

One interesting fact is that Kerala is among the most literate (98% literacy rate, officially) in the world. My friends told me that communism is especially alluring to those of the intellectual persuasion in India. Also, Kerala is a southern state, and very few tourists visit there (Delhi and Bombay are considered northern states). With the exception of Kovalam Beach, I was the only "white" person I saw there.

No long term threat here. Next.

[mosel-saar-ruwer]

Q: This point has already been mentioned a bit by previous articles, but I'd like to hear an insider's take on it. The Indian tech economy is booming now, but like in the US, it's an unstable boom. Sooner or later, the US will look to other countries for their tech work, leaving India high and dry. What measures are being taken in India to maintain a strong internal tech economy, in the event that the US is no longer a serious customer?

A: Most people I talked to believe government is the only hope; that egovernment and other government projects are the only way to develop a sustainable local IT sector. Next question (asked by Indians I spoke to): "Where is the government going to get the money?" I was asked to pose this one to Slashdot readers. Consider it posed. Plenty of Indians would like to know the answer.

Let's hope for the sake of Indians that you're wrong.

But for the sake of argument, let's assume you're right, i.e. let's assume that most [if not all] Indians look to their government to solve their problems for them.

Then I can say with 100% metaphysical certainty that these people will never pose a threat to us in any way, matter, shape, or form.

Next. [Threat, that is.]

Where is the government going to get the money?

[slackr]

Next question (asked by Indians I spoke to): "Where is the government going to get the money?"

To answer this question (since it was posed) the Indian government will have a hard time coming up with enough money to do anything for 1 billion people when the very lucky ones are only pulling down $10,000/year. See, according to my paystub, the answer *would* be taxes, but here in the US we have a much lower unemployment rate and I personally pay enough in taxes to support two full-time programmers in India, or to put that in even starker perspective, I give enough money to the US government to hire and retain almost 50 Indian household servants.

And I couldn't come close to affording one here in the states. In fact, I don't make much at all. In other words, here in the US we are not expecting the government to build us a new economy, and yet middle-class folks like me are funding the government with much bigger sums of money to provide baseline social services to a much smaller population.

It seems to me that while a homegrown IT market is a great and important plan, the Indian government will not find it easy to create an entire economy based on that alone. But why does everyone have to work in the tech industry? Take a tip from FD Roosevelt's "New Deal" plan to get the US out of its depression back in the 1930's. It goes like this:
(people who need homes) + (people who need jobs) = (lots of jobs building houses). All kinds of infrastructure can be created this way, building roads, office complexes, etc., and once everyone's on their feet they will continue to benefit from all of these public works projects taht were created during the hard times.

Right but there's still that huge population, so who's going to pay for all that? Easy, one more lesson in US public funding: DEFICIT SPENDING. It's simple, if you don't have the cash, spend it anyway. When will you pay it back? We haven't figured that out yet, but it sure beats begging. Like my Dad always says, I'd rather owe it to you than cheat you out of it ;)

Orthogonal in Theory

[Catskul]

They are orthogonal in theory only. In practice the requirements to bring people into the system makes the economic systems dependent on the governmental system.

It is extremely difficult for a free market economy under strict control since by definition its not a free market if it is tightly controled.

Communism on the other hand requires strict control as people will default to free market economic behavior when not constrained. It therefore requires more governmental control through its need for economical control. In my opinion, that is why it failed. The idea is great, but its like the environment, attempts to control throw it out of balance.

Re:Orthogonal in Theory

[Captain Rotundo]

"It is extremely difficult for a free market economy under strict control since by definition its not a free market if it is tightly controled."

Uh... no.

the term "free market" is a complete falicy, and htat is why you are wrong. All markets are artficial constructs, with artificial rules and controls. I am not saying a "free market" can't exist, just that it doesn't, and since I am going to assume you are an American (as Americans are apt to do, myself being one) I will add even NOT in the US.

The term "free market" is used probably because of the conotations "free" has.

Re:Hurst, Doesn't It?

[pclminion]

Can't work from your home country nickel and diming some other countries natives out of their jobs anymore.

Let me get this straight: some American companies approach some Indians and say "Hey, we need this work done, it's too expensive here, we'll pay you $XXX to do it."

And you're blaming the Indians for accepting a job offer? People offer them money, and they take it! How dare they! Of course, you would do different.

Let's place the blame, if there indeed is any to be placed, on the right spot, shall we?

Computer Science in India in 2500 BC!

[ominous_barbarian]

Not totally related to the outsourcing topic but India used to be doing pretty well in computer sciences and math before the barbarians came and messed us up, check this out: http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathemati cians/Panini.html "Panini should be thought of as the forerunner of the modern formal language theory used to specify computer languages. The Backus Normal Form was discovered independently by John Backus in 1959, but Panini's notation is equivalent in its power to that of Backus and has many similar properties. It is remarkable to think that concepts which are fundamental to today's theoretical computer science should have their origin with an Indian genius around 2500 years ago. "

Downside of outsourcing

[glinden]

I thought this was particularly interesting.

• Q: I'd like to know how long it will be before Indian tech professionals start forming startup companies to compete directly with their American corporate masters using what they have learned from them.
  
  A: It's already happening. Like mad.

By outsourcing, US firms are creating their own future competition. While this happens in the US as well, intellectual property protections are weaker in these developing countries, increasing the risk.

At a minimum, US companies should be careful about outsourcing any work that they consider to be part of a competitive advantage for their firm.

Geek girls?

[phorm]

And the unmarried ones had the same complaints about never meeting appropriate girls, too.

How is the proliferation of geek females. It seems that from some of the comments there is at least a "trendy" female technoculture. How many are true geeks, the type that like video games, linux, or other such things?

I know that it's hard to meet true geek girls around here... and I don't mean date I mean meet - I meet lots of people and even dating isn't too much an issue. Does such a population and the current tech boom mean an increase in female geekculture?

Beware, if the answer is yes... you may just get a whole hoard of US geeks "insourcing" themselves to India

Free Trade vs. Job Outsourcing

[tabdelgawad]

'Job outsourcing' has become the buzzword of every one who is, or claims to be, concerned with the US employment picture. Last week, N. Gregory Mankiw, the chairman of the US council of economic advisers, committed a cardinal sin by declaring that "Outsourcing is a growing phenomenon, but it's something that we should realize is probably a plus for the economy in the long run". Both republican and democratic politicians asked for his head (just do a search on 'mankiw' in google news).

But Mankiw is right (notwithstanding the old adage that in the long run, we are all dead!). There's not one dime's worth of difference in principle between 'outsourcing', which many hate, and 'free trade' which seems to have become the acceptable norm in American politics. Outsourcing is simply the extension of free trade from the goods markets to the service markets. It represents a shrinking of what economists call the 'nontradable sector', goods and services that are by nature are difficult/impossible to trade. Any defense of free trade policies (and there are many convincing ones) applies equally well to job outsourcing.

I don't mean to be callous about job losses. It was regrettable when the buggywhip makers lost their jobs to technological advances. It was regrettable when auto workers lost their jobs in the 80s to the Japanese carmakers. And it is regrettable when US programmers lose jobs to their Indian counterparts. But life goes on, the US employment picture will improve, and the complaints about 'outsourcing' will disappear until the next spike in US unemployment a few (hopefully many!) years from now. It's the way free trade works.

Myth of Canadian health costs

[thirty-seven]

. . .you can bring up the example of Canada and its national health insurance, for which Canadians pay higher taxes than U.S. residents.

From Alice in Universal Health Care Land:

MYTH: Americans would have trouble getting in to see a doctor. FACT: Canadians, who live in a single-payer system, see their primary care physicians more often than Americans do now. There are more doctors per capita in Canada than there are in the United States. Yet the cost of physician services in Canada is one-third less than it is in the United States. About half the cost savings in Canada comes not from offering less care but by reducing insurance overhead and paperwork. The rest of the savings comes from allocating money to pay for expensive equipment so there is less excess capacity and duplication. Ninety-six percent of Canadians prefer their health-care system to the U.S. model.

MYTH: Patients wouldn't be able to choose their own physician. FACT: According to experts, a single-payer plan would give patients more choice than they currently have in most cases. The United States is the only developed country heading in the direction of less choice. Other countries are building more choice into their systems.

MYTH: The United States has the best health care in the world. FACT: The United States has higher infant mortality, higher surgical mortality and lower life expectancy than Canada. The United States has a much lower rate of access to primary care doctors than Canada. Canada has the same acute care bed-to-population ratio as the United States. Patient satisfaction, quality of care and outcome of care in Canada equal or exceed that in the United States, according to the U.S. General Accounting Office. For this lower quality, Americans pay 40 percent per capita more than Canadians do on health care.

MYTH: There would be waiting lists for surgeries and high-tech procedures, which is why Canadians come to the United States to get health services. FACT: The United States has waiting lists for specialty care, too. Canadians rarely come to the United States for health care. Less than 1 percent of Canada's health budget goes to paying for care Canadians get in the United States. Canada's waiting-list problem stems largely from underfunding, which is being corrected now. Waiting times would likely be no longer in the United States than they are now, because we would still spend much more than other countries do on health care and still have many more specialists and capacity.

Re:Where's India going to get the money?

[Tackhead]

> Having said all that, I'll surrender up an observation for the Indian IT force; take it for what it's worth, which might be much or little. One of the major reasons why America got to be where it is today has to do with the spirit of its founding, in that those who came here and spread west did so in the pursuit of that which they couldn't have achieved back in England, or in the more established of the colonies, and then the States. They were willing to throw off virtually everything in an effort to reach for the brass ring, overturning centuries of "that's the way it's done" in favor of "this is what works".

Interesting. Reading the interview with the Indian IT geeks, I had exactly the same thought.

I came to a conclusion opposite to yours, however: The Indian geeks interviewed in that example are the very embodiment of the work ethic that once made America great.

If, as it appears to me, that work ethic no longer exists in North America anymore, then Indian companies (and Filipino companies to which Indian grunt-level work is outsourced) are gonna be the place to invest in the next decade.

Indians: You're welcome to take "my" job the day my employer decides you can do my job faster, better, and cheaper than I can. Because when that day comes, you'll have earned my job. Rock on!

And that stands regardless of whether I end up keeping my job, goofing around on my Playstation-6 in the mansion I bought with the returns from my investments in transnational corporations, or on a park bench with a sign saying "Will Code For Food".

Older computer users?

[kkovach24]

After reading about government officials that are afraid that the keyboard might shock them, a thought occured to me. How accepting of computers and technology are the older generations in India? I know there are plenty of older folks here that just don't want to have anything to do with PCs and new technologies related to PCs. Are there similar feelings in India and how might that effect the insourcing?

Offshored, Not Outsourced

[Nintendork]

Now our interviews are being outsourced

Actually, it was offshored, not outsourced. These are two completely unrelated terms. Offshored means that the operation moved to another country. Outsourced means that another company was hired to perform the function.

For example, Microsoft outsources some of their tech support to Convergys. Both companies offshore to India for some of their tech support.

The only similarity is that both offshoring and outsourcing save the company money. Outsourced workers get paid less and get less benefits becuase they work in a call center environment (As close to a sweat shop as you can get in the industry). When offshoring, the savings are even more dramatic due to economic differences.

Generally, outsourcing in the U.S. or Canada is transparent to the consumer and is a proven method to save money, even in the long term. Offshoring on the other hand is a relatively new venture with few (If any) long term studies. As a techie that has worked with Indians, I have no qualms about their ability. It's not like we're genetically superior in the U.S. The only problem I have is that when I'm not screwing around on Slashdot, my time is valuable and wasting it trying to talk to someone who has poor verbal English skills is a kick in the crotch from a company we do business with. I would have had us purchase something other than Dell if it weren't for their recent move back to the states for business support. Their move back to the states tells me that they got scared as companies took their high dollar purchases elsewhere and/or threatened to do so. Another problem with offshoring, I believe, is that the majority of people in the states think that someone in a poorer country will be less able to help them which gives Indians an unfair stigma. In the end, we'll see how decreased customer satisfaction impacts the precious bottom line and that in turn will dictate where the jobs are.

I know this blurb doesn't count when it comes to programming jobs. Sorry, but the only chance programmers have to compete against offshoring is to have employers that believe they're worth the relative premium or hope that legal issues (IP, malware, espionage, goverment secrets, etc.) scare the jobs away from offshoring. Personally, I'm ignorant of the laws in India that protect corporations. Maybe someone could comment on this?

Sorry my response to your comment is on a serious note. What started as a simple correction turned into a complete package of my thoughts on these corporate trends.

-Lucas

Dumb Westerners?

[GCP]

Feel free to speak for yourself, then close your mouth.

The overwhelming majority of internationalization is done by smart Westerners, most of it by Americans (though Europeans have made huge contributions).

I've worked in Japan and Korea. They couldn't care less about internationalization when designing their own code. Of course they want Western code to be internationalized so they can use it, too, but that's just more pressure on Westerners to internationalize. If the Japanese decide to modify the code themselves, they'll simply add support for Japanese rather than trying to internationalize it.

And even Europeans don't usually have much interest in real internationalization. They've thought of "international" and "European" as synonyms for so long that as soon as it works in the major markets in their neighborhood, they declare it "internationalized" and quit. (Trying to talk to them about really internationalizing is then likely to result in perplexed looks and comments like, "unlike you Americans, we think internationally, so we've already internationalized yadda, yadda....")

It's the multinational US companies that have driven most real internationalization because as soon as they decide to leave their domestic nest, US companies are just as interested in Asia as in Europe. Developers at IBM, Microsoft, Oracle, and Apple, for example, have the importance of things like Unicode drummed into them. Not so for developers that I've seen at NEC, Fujitsu, Samsung, Siemens, Bull, or Ericsson.

Interestingly, though, the governments of India and Pakistan have both recently joined the Unicode Consortium as full members.

"Where is the government going to get the money?"

[El]

Can't answer that, but there are a lot of people on slashdot hard at working trying to make it cost less money -- commoditization of the computer industry may ultimately be the greatest help for development of Indian IT.

Arrrrrrgh!

[PseudononymousCoward]

Why, why, why did you paste that link?

Until 5 minutes ago, I was a George Bush-supporting, evangelical Southern Baptist. Really.

Now--I'm Jacques Chirac.

Why...why.........

Options

[swillden]

There are plenty:

• Private school. Not actually as expensive as you might think. My son was doing very poorly in public school for a variety of reasons, so he now attends a private school that costs about $3K per year (it's interesting to compare that to the nearly $5K per year the public schools spend per student). We do have to drive him to and from school every day, the facilities are run down, the computers are old and the playground doesn't have the coolest new Big Toy. However, the classes are small (8-10 students) the teachers are excellent and dedicated (my son's teacher gave us her home and cell phone numbers, with instructions to call any time, day or night), the curriculum is aggressive (he is in fourth grade and mastering material not usually covered until junior high) and the kids are well cared for (they even get hot freshly-prepared breakfast and lunch, not the pre-packaged crap passed out at the local public schools). Worth EVERY penny.
• Home school. In most areas the public schools will work with you to make sure your children have access to all of the same extracurricular opportunities as the rest of the kids, and will help out with teaching materials as well. It's not that hard to construct socialization opportunities as well.
• A different public school. Check out the nearby schools and see if one of them would work out better. You will probably have to arrange for transportation to and from school every day.
• Raise Holy Hell. Tell the teacher that his/her approach is wrong and inadequate and that you want your child taught differently. If the teacher doesn't shape up, go to the principal and request a transfer to a different teacher. If the principal doesn't agree, go to the district and the school board. If you still don't get what you want, look at the other options above and considering running for the school board or other political post to fix things.

If you want your child to have a good education, it is within your power. You do not have to accept whatever your child's current teacher wants to do. Doing it is not necessarily easy and if none of the above options solve the problem you might want to consider moving somewhere that your child can get a decent education. In my case it was relatively easy -- our local school is pretty good as long as your child fits the required mold. Two of my children seem to be getting along fine there and it didn't cost me much to address the fact that my oldest didn't fit in.

Oh, and one more benefit to private schools: It's unbelievable how nice it is to be treated like an important customer rather than an irritating obstacle. There's a subtle but important difference in attitude between a teacher who realizes that you pay his/her salary directly and one who gets paid by the state/county. My other two children's teachers are competent, and nice people who like to see interested parents, but the tone is "This is how I approach my classroom and your child's education and how I'd like you to work with me" rather than "This is how I propose to work with your child, what do you think?"

Big enough pool for everyone to play in

[raider_red]

I got laid off last year like several million other U.S. tech workers. I was able to find a new job in about four months. Nearly all of my co-workers who got laid off also found jobs within three to six months. Talking to others I've met this year, I've seen stories very similar to mine and my former co-workers.

The moral of the story: Yes, there is short term displacement and pain, partly attributed to off-shoring, but in an economy as innovative and dynamic as ours, those who want to work can almost always find work. It may take some personal adjustment, and you may have to make some dramatic changes in lifestyle, but in the end that's all just stuff, and you can live without most of it. There's a lot of work to be done, and in the end, there's probably enough to employ almost all of us, and a couple of million overseas.

Re:Pinochet [was Re:whoa] (OT)

[IgnoramusMaximus]

he penultimate paragraph (starting with the letter BTW a commonly accepted acronym for "by the way") was remark indicating that the ECONOMIC policies Pinochet introduced were beneficial for Chile, it did not in any way express aproval of his person.

Let me clarify it for you since you are having difficulty with history and present economic situation in Chile: Allende came to power because Chile's economy was screwed up beyond belief with huge masses of dispossessed and starving poor working in near-slavery conditions and most of the country was being owned by US based cartels. Pinochet was a response of those who want to own everything on the planet. His job was to set an example as to what happens should the unwashed masses get uppity and try to get a better deal. He did his job splendidly. In the process he restored the "natural" order of things to Chile, and even improved it so that the new flashy "economicly viable" elite is the only thing visible to uneducated doofuses who use the FOX channel as their news source. In the meantime the disparity between the elite and the huge numbers of the working poor has grown. Overall the rich got very rich and everyone else got double-screwed under Pinochet. And thats his economic legacy that you claim was beneficial to Chile. Dont get me wrong, I fully understand where you stand. If it is good for the few rich up top it must be good for the country, right? After all only the rich count when one speaks of persons, the rest are merely wage-slaves, no? This is the very same way of thinking these darlings of "conservative thinking" like Regan and Bush embodify.

The fact for Pinochet is responsible for the death of other 3000 people (how of them were really communists who came from around the world to establish communism is our country, how many were just misguided brats or completly innocent bystanders, will never know becouse they didn't get a trail), does not magicly make Allende a good ruler

I was reading this with total astonishment, until I realised I am talking to a Bible-thumping troglodite who would gladly take part in Crusades if he were born in middle ages. I can almost hear that madman with a torch: "The communists are Evil and the Spawn Of Satan to be tortured and and burned on the stake so that the purifying fires can clense their souls!". Right. So it is quite all-right to murder, rape and pillage as long as the victims are "communists" or "misguided brats". To most foreigners in the world it is quite astonishing that a country professing so loudly the rule of law and democracy is on one hand supporting vicious thugs and on the other invading other countries "pre-emptively" on made-up pretexts. Not so to me, if there are people in the world like you who are inane enough to think the way you do. If there is something to be ever wished for by all sane people on this planet is that the likes of you never, ever, manage to take charge of the US completely for they would end the humanity with an uspeakable bloodbath trying to purge it of what your indoctrination tells you is "evil".

I wasn't justifing atrocities commited by Pinochets regime...

This thin veneer of civility was completelly torn off by your statement above.

.. only pointing out to that the greatgrandparents argument about a good democraticly elected communist government was absurd.

Which happened to be completely correct as what is a "good" or a "bad" government was for the Chilean majority to decide in a democratic process and not for US based corporations, a hired thug and a bunch of greedy land owners in Chile who conspired to destroy that government when it didnt suit them instead of waiting for next election where their notion of "good" could have been defeated again. By your insane thinking, "good" is what YOU believe to be good, measured by your own yardstick (capitalist wealth, the stock exchange index, private hospitals, 60% of people with no healthcare, etc) and any other measurement (as

Linux Applications from India

[sgandotra]

India has also given to the world the First Financial Accounting Package on Linux fromthe region. Named Kalculate (www.kalculate.com) and certified by IBM and INTEL, it is available to users with fairly good response.
Gien proper industrial inputs, environment and encouragement, India can do a lot more than just typing the world's work.

Philippines call centers

[foo12]

Call center work is not necessarily permanent. It is a burnout job in India just as phone "customer service" work is in the U.S. [...] and besides, all those jobs will go to the Philippines sooner or later, anyway, so why bother? [emphasis added]

I read this as I'm sitting in my company's customer service center in the Philippines. Our customer service reps here already have a loyal following amongst our customers. It's largely cultural: Filipinos place great emphasis on compromise and tactful, mutually face-saving resolution of any conflict. That cultural predilection goes a long way in handling customers, no matter what the issue. Plus the reps here are always smiling and singing; it seems silly but it's repesentative of the general attitude in this office.The customer senses it, and eats it up.

Yes

[hetairoi]

Vinod Khosla met Scott McNealy and Bill Joy at the University of Califomia, Berkeley.