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Ebay Suspends Phone Number Sales
wellingt writes "According to the
Jackson Sun, the attention brought by the sale of Jenny's famous 867-5309 has led Ebay to evaluate whether or not phone numbers are the property of their owner, and whether they can be sold. Verizon has made the claim otherwise."
Number portablity doesn't mean number transferablity. In order to get "your number" to move from Provider X to Provider Y, you have to show proof to Provider Y that you do in fact hold that number at Provider Y... if you go into Radio Shack with your buddy's phone bill and even with your buddy saying it's okay, you can't get his old number on your new cell phone.
So, there's nothing to sell on eBay. If you can't give it away even when you try, you can't sell it either.
"Buyers and sellers on eBay enter into a binding contract, [Ebay spokesman Henry Gomez] said.
So officials of the auction service have to make sure the seller actually owns the item for sale and has the right to sell it."
This is not a very smart position to take. Ebay is basically saying, for example, that they are responsible if someone attempts to sell stolen property over their service.
Lyrics
Yes, you do not "own" the number, but what's different here than all the auctions for domain names? You don't "own" the domain - you lease it from the registrars/ICANN/whatever. The phone companies let you transfer phone numbers just like you can transfer a domain, so what's the difference?
/.'d than they'd make in commission.
Maybe eBay just realized they're losing more in bandwidth charges from being
And they're one of the few remaining lions of the dot-com boom to still be around, and still be in the black. Hmm.
Well, people sell 800 numbers all the time. If I want 1-800-BUY-STUFF then I can contact the person that has that number and offer to buy it from them. They may not sell it to me, but that's their choice. I guess by Verizons logic that 800-CALLATT doesn't belong to AT&T then. Shouldn't regular numbers be the same?
Robert
Next thing you know the SSN I bought of Ebay will turn out to be nontranferable too.
--
Tsiangkun
How many people actually still call for Jenny more than 20 years after release of the song called 867-5309/Jenny?
"You wouldn't believe me if I told you," dealership owner Mike Blacksher said
Dad, STOP calling Jenny or else I HAVE to go tell Mom.
Free XBox, PS2
I actually knew of a guy in Murfreesboro, TN that had the misfortune of having this as his phone number. He got all sorts of calls from people who were just dialing the number for kicks, and wound up putting "No, Jenny's not here," on his answering machine.
Don't Panic!
Will they say, "Jenny, I've got your number"? If they don't, it's a travesty of justice.
Addresses, work and home. Email addresses. Licence plates. Addresses of children's schools.
Obligatory Scarface quote: "You know, if anyone wanted to assassinate you Frank, you wouldn't be too hard to find."
Once the phone companies figure out that there is money to be made in selling vanity phone numbers - like vanity license plates - you'll see this sort of number transferability made available - for a fee, of course.
...low Slashdot ID numbers?
Ask not for whom the phone rings. It rings for you - Jenny.
The phone number popularized by 1982's one-hit wonder Tommy Tutone - Eight-six-seven-five-three-oh-nieeine - rings into a Murfreesboro used-car dealership in area code 615.
Tuning in to national attention for the auction of New York's 212 version of the number on eBay, the dealership put its number on the Internet auction block Monday.
However Tuesday afternoon, David Ludwig, general manger of Auto Outlet, said he got an e-mail from eBay notifying him that his "Jenny" auction had been canceled for being "inappropriate." The other phone numbers being also sold disappeared from the Web site.
The auctions were put on hold until eBay could determine whether they fell within the company's guidelines, a spokesman said Tuesday night. "People are really creative," said spokesman Henry Gomez. "And this one had us scratching our heads a bit."
Buyers and sellers on eBay enter into a binding contract, he said.
So officials of the auction service have to make sure the seller actually owns the item for sale and has the right to sell it.
He said a determination would be made about the auctions after the sellers and phone companies involved had been consulted.
The bizarre convergence of '80s pop culture and offbeat Internet auctions made ABC's Good Morning America on Friday.
Before the auction was canceled, New York's "Jenny" was going for more than $200,000.
Ludwig said he was shooting for at least $10,000. Nonetheless, he said he was happy to keep the catchy number "once we get through all these prank calls."
How many people actually still call for Jenny more than 20 years after release of the song called 867-5309/Jenny?
"You wouldn't believe me if I told you," dealership owner Mike Blacksher said.
Less than one minute after having the number connected at his dealership in January, the phone rang.
It was for Jenny.
The dealership actually has sold several cars to "Jenny" callers, he said.
Blacksher requested the number from the phone company after calling and finding out that no one had it, he said.
"We get 100 or more calls every day," he said. "People call all the way from Miami. People just keep running through area codes. They ask for Jenny or just start singing the song."
The calls fill up the company's voice mail every night.
The lawyer who owns the New York "Jenny" acquired it a few months ago after he called it and realized no one had it. He got the number from Verizon and has used it as a second line, hooking it up to an answering machine.
Verizon said its customers don't own their phone numbers, so the right to 212-867-5309 cannot be sold.
But in Nashville, a spokeswoman for BellSouth said nothing prevents a customer from transferring a number to someone else.
This is sometimes done for business partners who split up and the other person takes the number, Sybil McLain said.
"What two parties do between themselves is between them," she said. "We provide phone service."
Another Middle Tennessee "Jenny" opportunity could still be out there.
Her 931 area code number did not seem to be connected Tuesday.
Information from The Los Angeles Times-Washington Post News Service and from UPI was used this report.
Did eBay ever take game item auctions off while they evaluated if they really belonged to the sellers or not? From my understanding, Blizzard wasn't too crazy about people selling Diablo II items online, since it's basically just moving data around on their servers, nothing more. I don't have any specifics though, but this situation seems to parallel that one very well.
What's the difference between selling a domain that you lease from a registrar and a phone number you lease from a cellular company? Ebay is lame if they can't clearly see the similarities, hell ebay is lame anyway.
Well, it's already slow, but yes, why shouldn't phone numbers be salable? They're a part of you; you give out your phone number, when people call they expect to get you. So they're property, at least to a degree, and you can definitely sell property. What's the problem here?
This is sometimes done for business partners who split up and the other person takes the number, Sybil McLain said. "What two parties do between themselves is between them," she said. "We provide phone service."
So while the original New York seller of the 212 code version might not be able to transfer it, this article is primarily about a Murfreesboro, TN car dealer, who it appears could.
Kind of a good thing. I wouldn't want some investment company buying up all the numbers in my area, then I have to pay some crazy fee just to get a phone number.. Or if they did, and I called the wrong number, would they set them up to re-direct the call to telemarketers?!
Mod +5 Drunk
While I think people are clearly renting the phone numbers (if you don't pay the phone company, they take it away and can re-issue it), it seems you own the rights to use that number while paying for it. So, that people can sell "the right to use the number while paying for it" seems fair enough.
On the other hand, if we look at phone numbers in the same light as domain names (e.g. identifiers to get a query to a place that information can be retrieved), a whole new can of worms is opened. People say they own a domain name, but it may be more like renting than owning outright. Same as with phone numbers. If you don't pay the fee every year, it is taken away and can be re-issued to someone else.
The only thing that throws the analogy is that there are certain numbers "given" to the phone companies, if I understand correctly, whereas domains, the company has no claim to the letters.
Register a patent on the phone number.
Start suing.
No basis for a lawsuit? Why let that stop you?
> Verizon has made the claim otherwise.
... because THEY want to cash in on selling the vanity numbers. A buddy of mine (let's call him Mike) has a number of the form ###-###-MIKE. If he ever wants rid of the number, the phone company doesn't want him selling it to some other Mike, they want to have it back so they can sell it to some other Mike.
if the answer isn't violence, neither is your silence / freedom of expression doesn't make it alright
Here in BC, Canada, our monopoly telco Telus has right in the front of the phone book that they own the telephone number and can change it at any time with reasonable notice.
I suppose this is no longer the case with the American's number portability, but this probably use to be the case and is where eBay is getting it's worries from.
"Damn you Tommy Tutone"
-- Stewie Griffin
I know that in the UK, there is a thriving market in trading/selling of number plates (aka liscence plates). See here for a search. Why is this kind of thing shunned here?
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
are they selling the number in a specific area code?
how does this work? (is it good or is it whack?)
Disclaimer: I don't know what I'm talking about.
Someone with deeper telecomm operations experience should be able to answer this, but given that we have cell number portability, do the numbers belong to *anyone* other than NANPA (North American Numbering Plan Administration)?
A related question for your hard-core telcomm people, since portability presumes any number can go anywhere, how do carriers assign new numbers to new devices? What pool do they come from? And what happens when service is terminated -- where do those numbers go?
My *guess* is that NANPA assigns NXX blocks (prefix/exchanges) to carriers, who then assign them to end nodes. Portability simply means that when someone wants to move to another carrier, the ported number gets put into an exception database someplace that is shared among carriers. Numbers not in the exception database are routed to whoever was assigned the NXX block originally. When service ends for a number, an exception database entry is removed if it exists, and the number "returns" to the NXX block assignee it originated from.
All of that is moot, though, if number portability means ALL numbers are in an exception database and number assignments simply happen in a queue from this master number database, and NANPA no longer assigns NXX blocks to carriers this way.
If this is true, then it seems fair game for me to re-assign my number to anyone else since only NANPA would have any claim on it. If the other assertion is true (NXX assignments to carriers, with an exception database and return-to-assignment on release), then Verizon or other carriers may have a legit beef, especially if they have to buy NXX blocks from NANPA or pay fees for them.
Somewhere out there, Tommy Tutone is laughing his ass off!
I'm not sure this is a big surprise. I think that if you don't own the number, then it would be fraud to try to sell it. Here is ebay's user agreement. Maybe some people think this a grey area, but refer to the first posters comment, portability not ownership. I'd rather not bid on items that the seller doesn't own. If people started selling stuff that they had no claim over, no one would trust ebay. Trust seems like a big part of their business. Now if the new laws were tested in court and somehow ruled that I own my cellphone number...well that would be a different story.
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If there isn't a friendly phone company out there (which is hard to believe since there'd almost certainly be a little money in it from them, especially if they were able to make all the transfers happen in a small number of days), it's possible for someone to set up a company for the sole purpose of doing this.
Given enough flexibility, networks WILL route around damage. Fortunately the FCC has just given us the flexibility we need.
If I already have the right to transfer a wireless service (with the existing wireless number) to another person without restriction or penalty...why would any wireless company be able to stop me from charging for that transfer. Its just that simple.
I agree with previous posts, it has nothing to do with reality, the wireless providers are just looking for yet another way to stick it to their customers.
Isn't something, by definition, the property of its owner? I guess the question is "Who is the owner -- the subscriber, or the provider?"
Would you really want to have a "famous" phone number? Just think about all the random calls you would get? How many people call 867-5309 just to see if someone answers? Then again, I am considering buying 1-800-eat-shit for my technical support line...
Quote from the article: "nothing prevents a customer from transferring a number to someone else." - seems pretty clear cut to me. The partnership splitting is only given as an example.
Anyway, this has nothing to do with phone number portability, which is the ability to move providers and keep the same number. Granted, the case may be that Bell South "owns" the number and might not let you transfer it to a third party, but they obviously don't mind you selling to one if that third party stays with Bell South.
The point is, it seems the policy varies depending on who is providing your phone service, and this TN guy had a right to sell the number, while the NY guy didn't, but Ebay pulled both auctions without discrimination.
where do i sign up?
shouldn't phone numbers be considered no different than domain names? we buy and sell those every day....
As a fellow New Yorker, I am thoroughly pissed off that I didn't think of this first.
-n-
when i moved into my apartment in august, my roomates and i discovered that the building exchange was 382...spelling "FUC". you can only imagine what our final decision was when we called the local telco company and requested a vanity number. i will say this: the prank phone calls are USUALLY lame...but there have been a few worth note: "damn...someone already has this number!" "do you know what your number spells?" "you're daughter come over my house, and she kick my dog" etc. regardless, telling girls my phone number ensures they will NEVER forget it.
Many people are asking who would want this number anyway? I think it would be really smart for a telemarketer to buy up the number in as many area codes as possible. All kinds of random people would be calling them, and maybe they can keep some talking long enough to sell something. Then at least one company wouldn't be calling people at home at dinner time. Their new customers would come to them.
Developers: We can use your help.
a buddy of mine wrote a song with HIS telephone number in it. then he would sing it out at club and other places hoping chicks would call him.
i found the whole endevor quite humorous
When I recently ported my mobile number, the salesman made me verify that I still lived within the region associated with the area code. I began to wonder when the area code/number system will be deemed outdated. It is still beneficial for determining local vs. long distance calls for land lines but, as more people move to mobile service with unlimited long distance, it seems to lose its relevance. I'd rather keep my number if I moved to a new state so that people would still know how to reach me than get a new number that identified my geography. I would think that the current reliance on area codes has more to do with mobile switching technology than customer demand. I wonder if the balance of interests between phone companies and their customers will tip again in the next few years, leading to a a "national number portability" law that mirrors the recent "local number portability" law.
When violence rules the world outside / And the headlines make me want to cry / It's not the time to just keep quiet
how about:
+1 Zing!
I dont see how this is any different than people selling EQ characters/eqipment or Magic The Gathering Online product on eBay.
TECHNICALLY in the TOS it explicitly states that the users DO NOT OWN THE DIGITAL CONTENT. And that they just are given the rigts to use it.
I think eBay just got all butt hurt because of all the publicity the auction was getting. I'm sure if my Entire Playset of 8th Edition Wrath of Gods for MTGO on eBay was on the 8 o'clock news, Wizards of the Coast would be stepping in as well.
Just my $0.02
There's a modest market in 800 numbers since number portability for them was introduced in 1993. What's the problem?
the us military has ugly uniforms
Some diabled people, who have a problem with numbers or whatever can get special numbers that are easily to remember, I am guessing free of charge. This type of market cannot work, becuase of small thinks like that, the phone company should have the right to issue phone numbers so they can be issued to those who need it. This market of selling numbers won't last in other venues either for this and many other reasons. Sorry I wasn't more clear in this post.
Here's the old link to the auction -- dead now.
Trolls lurk everywhere. Mod them down.
I've always wanted a phone number that ended in 8487 so that i can tell my friends, "Hey gimme a call! My number is 555-TITS!"
It seems to me that the phone number has become an important part of people's identity. To get just about any service you need a phone number. Since the phone number belongs to the phone company and not you, they can theoretically change it on you whenever you want. That would screw up any services that had your old number, and you would have to call each one seperately to get it changed in their system.
Personally, I do not want a phone. I communicate almost exclusively over the internet. Compared to a cable internet connection, a phone is an awful deal. You pay just as much to get a much worse and much more restricted service. Yet, because I can't get broadband without a phone number, I need a phone.
If I have to pay that much money for something I don't really want, and if having it changed could force me to spend hours having it changed in various companies' databases, not to mention contacting all my friends and informing them of the change, then I think I should get control of the number. The current situation feels too much like a "shut up, bend over, and take it" kind of situation to me.
that actually want this number? Yeah, I want to pay thousands of dollars so I can have the #1 Drunk Dial number and get hundreds of calls from dumbasses who think they have an original idea in calling the number from an 80's song. It'd be funny for about a day and then I'd rip the phone out of the wall. If only there were a way to send a shock through the lines to the slapass on the other end., then I could see the value of this.
I asked them about it years ago, and someone from Blizzard said that there are some things they "just won't comment on."
So while they probably don't approve, they aren't all up in arms about it like Sony was over EQ.
"To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking
While, in theory, the telephone company (claims it) can change your number if there is a service problem or - again in theory - for any reason it wants to, with the ability of the customer to move the number to a different Local Exchange Company (LEC-Incumbent ILEC or Competitive CLEC) or even move numbers between wireless and wireline companies, Verizon's claim that the customer does not 'own' the phone number is specious at a minimum and in any case clearly incorrect.
We as customers are paying a few cents every month for local number portability. If the customer can move their number without consent of the carrier - which is the case - then the carrier's claim that the customer does not own the number is clearly incorrect.
When competitive local (wired) phone service came into Maryland about 5 years ago I moved from (what was then) Bell Atlantic to Starpower faster than you can say 'Long distance is the next best thing to being there.' All (what is now) Verizon could do was send me a final bill and wish me a goodbye.
Since the carrier no longer has any means to refuse to let you change carriers - even if you still owe them money - then obviously the carrier no longer owns the phone number, the subscriber does.
When I moved to Virginia, I signed up with Starpower directly and have had service with them for three years. (Yes, I know the actual service comes from Verizon but it's at least a partial victory.)
The point remains, if I can take my (wireline) number from Verizon to someone else - or have a number issued from a different carrier and move it elsewhere - then obviously I own that number. This was the standard for 800/888 etc. numbers for years now, has been the standard for wired customer numbers and is now established for cellular numbers too.
It will probably take a tedious suit against some telephone company to establish de jure what is already de facto: that the customer now owns the phone number, not the carrier.
----Paul Robinson <Postmaster@paul.washington.dc.us>
The lessons of history teach us - if they teach us anything - that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.
What prevents the owner of 867-5309 to just agree to forward all calls to the winning bidder? Maybe even transfer the account into the winner's name? We've had satellite offices close and have forwarded the phone/fax numbers to our numbers with no problems whatsoever.
Perhaps he should re-list it without saying he'll transfer "ownership" of the number, but everything else.
-n-
My parents have had a local number that ends in "2020" since the mid 70s. Many optometrists (sp?) in town offered to buy the phone number from them. My parents refused though.
It can be done.
-Nick
"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
oh yeah they have...
Who wants to sell 'doug'?
Apparently, on ebay!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
I've got one word for you:
www.georgewbush.com
If someone's willing to pay for the phone number, let them. I mean, who cares? Besides, a phone number can be a commodity if there's a market for it. So sell it if you can!
What is your penile percentile?
Verizon seems to be saying corporations have the right to buy and sell phone numbers but regular folks don't. It figures, it's just more of the same crap we get all the time.
Doesn't anyone get this weirdness? One of Cingular's latest commercials with with some chick who said she was happy she was able to keep her number, and she's dancing to the Jenny song. I thought that was odd, since it's a Verizon number.
I think that signal 11 tried to sell his SID a few years ago. I remember there being some controversy about it but I don't remember the details.
Lasers Controlled Games!
So, why doesn't this guy transfer the number to a new provider, and then sell it? It'd be out of Verizon's hands then.
Paul Robinson <Postmaster@paul.washington.dc.us>
The lessons of history teach us - if they teach us anything - that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.
My *guess* is that NANPA assigns NXX blocks (prefix/exchanges) to carriers, who then assign them to end nodes. Portability simply means that when someone wants to move to another carrier, the ported number gets put into an exception database someplace that is shared among carriers. Numbers not in the exception database are routed to whoever was assigned the NXX block originally. When service ends for a number, an exception database entry is removed if it exists, and the number "returns" to the NXX block assignee it originated from.
This is both fascinating and offtopic.
Suppose a Verizon customer moves to Qworst and takes his number, which is part of the Verizon pool. He cancels his Verizon service.
How does Verizon know not to reissue that number?
If the guy flat cancels his Qworst service, do they notify Verizon that the number is now available for reissue?
I guess I'm not going to sell 1-800-GET-BENT after all.
I'm betting people are going to start selling 'sexy' IP addresses as well.
So I can make someone out there a great deal on 10.10.10.10 if they want it...
Hehe...
eBay's revoked the auction.
Now I can't figure out for the life of me how to contact the guy who's selling this phone number.
get a national service plan for your wireless: I have national service through AT&T *(not that i'd recommend going through them) but I can call from any part of the country. Most other providers have arrangements like these.
Can I be a Luddite too?
I have a friend that I like to call GPoK. That stands for 'Great Purveyor of Knowledge'. He would probably have some great insight to share with us about this topic. I will try to get him to post.
However, toll free and pay services are costly phone services to operate...
I don't know about pay services, but toll free is ridiculously cheap. I pay nothing/month + 10 cents a minute for calls anywhere in North America for my toll-free (with a business line). Google around, you might be surprised.
Just about any item that someone objects to the sale of, eBay will block. They're the dominant auction site, they don't _need_ that business, and they'd rather block it than deal with the difficulty. eBay is controversy-averse to a fault.
Ask anyone burned by their "VeRO" program where eBay will remove any auction requested by a VeRO, even if the item auctioned is clearly legal to be sold (e.g. a CD given away with the sale a pair of jeans at the GAP)
In sweden the law is actually on the clueless buyers side. As long as I have paid a "reasonable" amount for the object in question, and I had no reason to believe it was stolen property, I am in the clear. This means that I will be commiting a crime if I take back, let's say, my previously stolen bicycle that I miraculously find on the street. Things like this has happened, where the rightful owner has been apprehended. It may sound weird at first, but think about it from everybodys perspective. The net gain (smallest net loss?) is the best in the swedish scenario IMO.
Actually, there was already an article on /. a while back about a couple guys in Australia having copyrighted practically every phone number you could think of.
i do this quite a bit for my company, with verizon and cingular. here's an example: we hire a new sales person who's had his cell number for a gazillion years and doesn't want to part with it, but his provider/plan suck in comparison to our corporate plan, and we don't want to get stuck paying for a sucky plan/service.
we contact the phone company, request for an assumption of service in which the company now take on the financial responsibilities of the service contract. this usually take a tax id number, but between individuals you would use a social security number. once the billing is switched over in the company name, we port the number into our corporate plan.
if the employee leaves and wants to retain their phone number, the process is simply reversed. the process is easy, what's difficult is that each provider wants to lock you into their service plan. in the case of assuming an individual number into a group plan, since the group plan already exists, we're not bothered to sign any contracts. on the other hand, if the individual wants to break their number from our plan, they need to commit to a some type of time commitment( 1 or 2 year plan) before they can assume responsibility and service.
three can keep a secret, if two are dead - benjamin franklin
So could Tommy Tutone claim that he "owns" all 867-5309 numbers as part of his trademark? That's the only reason people know of him...
http://www.snopes.com/music/songs/8675309.htm
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a fat white guy who is threatened by change."
This comment by VivianC is one of many...search for eBay on that page.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
That number is available in both of my local area codes. I wonder how one goes about getting it assigned to them from the telco? Anyone know? This ISN'T a number you want on your cell phone. :)
I don't know if I can shed light on who 'owns' the numbers, but I can clarify how they are assigned. NANPA does assign NXX codes to carriers. With Thousands Block Pooling (implemented to slow down NPA exhaust), there is actually a separate entity called the Pooling Administrator who assigns NPA-NXX-Xs to carriers as well -- a carrier that needs new TNs would typically get however many blocks they need rather than full codes. The number ranges assigned to a given carrier (e.g. Verizon, or Sprint PCS) 'belong' to that carrier. When that carrier assigns a TN to a new customer, that TN will come somewhere from the assigned inventory that has been allocated to the carrier by NANPA or the Pooling Administrator. When that same customer disconnects, the TN returns to that carrier, gets aged X months, then becomes available for re-assignment. Portability confuses this whole model by creating issues where, for instance, if a customer ports her TN from Verizon to Sprint PCS, and then subsequently disconnects service, then Sprint PCS has to age the TN but then after aging, the TN 'snaps back' to Verizon. As for ownership rights -- dunno. Perhaps NANPA asserts ultimate ownership on behalf of the FCC because they are the administrator of all numbers in the North American Numbering Plan.
Suppose a Verizon customer moves to Qworst and takes his number, which is part of the Verizon pool. He cancels his Verizon service.
How does Verizon know not to reissue that number?
If the guy flat cancels his Qworst service, do they notify Verizon that the number is now available for reissue?
That's what the number portablity database is all about. First off, the guy does not directly call Verizon to cancel... if he does, he loses his number so he'd better not do that. Instead, Qwest sends the Verizon the notifcation through the number portability system that they've just won over this customer, so they'd like the xxx-yyy-zzzz number rerouted to their system at entry point A. That's how Verizon finds out he canceled them, and how Verizon knows that they have to keep that number marked off in their database as one they can't issue.
When the guy leaves Qwest, if takes that number to another carrier, that new carrier can make the number portability magic happen again. This time, the number portability database realizes that they've already got the number on the exceptions list look where it's going and see that they need to notify Qwest that they've lost the customer, and changing the routing table accordingly so that when a new call comes in through Verizon the new redirect is issued.
If he leaves Qwest by calling them directly, then Qwest has to inform the number portability system that they lost the customer, and the number reverts back to the owner of the exchange, so in this case Verizon is told they're the ones who get to reassign the number.
+1, Insightful
whether or not phone numbers are the property of their owner
IIRC, in ancient times phone companies would put in a new exchange and tell some customers "Your number has been changed from XYZ-ABCD to PQR-ABCD. Get used to it."
Just as they do with area codes today.
That is exactly the same situation as with MMORPG in-game characters/items trading outside of the game. High-level characters/rare items in most popular games sold for hundreds dollars. Most MMORPG don't recognize property right on in-game characters/items, some of them took action preventig E-bay sales. There was a numer of lawsuits by customers about their property right. To my knowledge only one was won - in China. However some MMORPG (Entropy something) took a new approach - they sell in-game items for real money themself. So we can expect the same situation with phone numbers - some providers will objects selling numbers, and some will sell them themself...
One of my friends in college, her family owned a 1-800 number, the idea behind it being that it wound up costing them less than collect calls or using the exhorbitant college phone service fees.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
I suspect Verizon doesn't want to be put in a situation where they might get sued for changing someone's phone number, depriving them of their "property". There may be times when someone's telephone number has to be changed for technical reasons, such as moving subscribers from one central office to another. The telephone company needs to reserve the right to change subscriber's numbers when it is required by changes to the telephone system.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
No one owns a telephone number except the telco. As a customer of Verizon, you are "leasing/renting" your phone number. The phone number is not yours to sell. Local Number Portability does not transfer ownership between the telco and the customer. LNP transfers ownership between telco providers. Try a google for LERG (Local Exchange Routing Guide). This is the bible for telcos to see which carrier owns which block of numbers AND which blocks of numbers are portable. Verizon was/is well within their rights to stop the auction.
Of course I realize that the phone company wants in on that action, so I'd daresay that such a transaction would only be permitted so long as the phone company which would have otherwise sold the phone number is renumerated by _at least_ the amount they would have received for the dispensing of a vanity phone number (plus, perhaps, an additional commission on whatever the final price is).
The person wanting to do the selling would only then need to find out how much the phone company wants for the number, and how much they expect for a kickback if he sells it directly to another person. He would then use that amount as the basis for determining how much he should actually sell it for (or start the bidding at).
Honestly, the phone companies could make money hand over fist if they did this... I don't see what their problem is.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
The interesting thing is that unlike registering a domain name, most combinations of phone numbers "spell" different words. I can see it now- the biggest fish with the best lawyers can usurp your phone number because it spells something of value.
Those that suggest you "dance like no one is watching" really want to see you make a complete fool of yourself.
Just by transferring it, the reason Verizon doesn't want to say you own it and can sell it is because company X can buy up all said numbers then have a middleman monopoly. The telco is doing a good thing here techncally.
1888 Franklin St.
My friends asked for 382-5968 (f***-you), and it rings at least as much as 867-5309...
jeez people, it's not really that hard... and although you can't technically "sell" a phone number, you can get paid to transfer it to someone else, just like any other intangible object i.e. software, music, domains, names of businesses, license plate names, etc.
But if I "owned" the number 1-800-GET-LAID, does that mean I couldn't get paid to transfer it to someone? This might to lead to the idea that phone numbers have no value, which obviously is very wrong, because if someone somehow redirected a business phone number that could be very serious.
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
In Vegas, they are portable, but initially assigned by switch. And there is more than one prefix per switch.
For example: 207, 431, 432, 440, 457, 486, 641 and 654 are all the prefixes for one switch.
If you live in that area and get new service, they'll give you one of the above (likely not 486 which seems to be State of Nevada offices or 654 which seems to be Bank of America offices).
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
The company that maintains the database of numbers is Telcordia formerly Bellcore. The document that the records are stored in is the LERG (Local Exchange Routing Guide). For now LNP only works (landlines not wireless) within your LATA (Local Access Transport Area). My LATA is 132 which covers NYC, 5 boroughs, Long Island, Westchester County and Greenwich CT. Numbers are reused constantly. Nowadays Telcordia doles out the numbers to carriers in as small as thousand-number blocks in an effort to keep the number pool from exhausting itself. Hope that explains it for you
p.rican
5ESS Maintenance Engineer
i don't know which part is more sad, the part that people are so desperate for money because of the economy or that there are people who are so not that they can afford to buy slashdot ids
Just last year someone called me and asked if they could buy my phone number. Ameritech wouldn't let me transfer the number directly, so I just ordered a bride from russia, and once we were married we had the phone number reassigned to both of us. Then I divorced her and she took the phone number with her. Then the person who wanted the phone number married her, got the phone number reassigned to both of them, and then divorced her and shipped her back to Russia, keeping the phone number.
paintball
'K dunno about shocks but (hypothetically speaking) what if you ran it through your modem port, scanned through the output signal frequency range (weak output, not limited to the audible), and plot the return signal intensity as a function of. There have to be some acoustic resonance frequencies for the telemarketer's handset, no? ID those peaks and then send a nice strong output pulse at the appropriate frequency. Think shattering wineglass. You'd want to do some thinking to make sure it wasn't the telemarketer's head shattering, that would be an etiquette violation, but it'd be one way of enforcing the DNC
I know for a fact that a phone number for a business was transferred to a new business, when the old owner retired. He let a competitor have it (buy it) because people would still call the business, looking for them. This happened in around 2001 or so.
I've also personally done it in England, but that, of course, is a completely different system.
Jeeeenny, I got your number...
Think again, Tommy.
The Human Cow - bringing you scrumtrelescence since 1995
I'm guessing that 867-5309 is a valid telephone number in about 200 different area codes. Name a carrier, I'd bet that they "have" that number.
The cure for cancer is coming: Reovirus
First they suspended my girlfriends and now they take away my phone number also !
Next you know they will say my credit history, I had purchased on ebay is invalid !
Telco's pay fees on each number that they "own". So when that number is ported, the fee goes to the new provider using that number. BY NO MEANS does an individual OWN his number, he owns a month to month "lease" on that number(willing to pay the fee), and can have that ported to a new carrier. If you don't beleive it, refuse to pay your bill for a few months, and see who ends up with "your" number.
>> "whether or not are the property of their owners"
It's not even a quote from the article, but It occurred to me that that statement really says something about our society.
"I am not a man, I am a Free Number!"
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
Ok, here's the easy way around it. You don't sell the number on ebay, you sell the right to have to current "owner" add your name to the account. Instead of it being "bob's number" is becomes "bob and joe's number". On day two, bob takes his name off of the policy and the number is now solely joe's number.
At that point, bob is no longer selling the number, which may or may not be bob's to sell. Bob is instead selling a service. The phone company couldn't step in and stop that even if they wanted to, could they?
... the telecomm companies request that media companies (ususlly movie and TV studios/writers) always use numbers beginning with the 555- exchange, since those are never given out (reserved for internal use, I've heard).
Apparently, this songwriter hadn't heard, or didn't care. Or, he wanted to do a DDOS attack.
I recently got (XYZ) 970-0000 as my cell number. Used highly stealthy techniques to get it... I'd just moved into town... visited the local sprint.. and had a great time flirting with the large, friendly, southern black woman at the counter.
After choosing my phone.. she tells me" OHHH Sugar.. I'm gonna get you a Good number". I shrug "OK"
"I'm gonna open up the Da-Ta Base, for you suga-plum..."
"Oh yea, the database?" "Thats right hunny... Hot Darn.. How bout this here one... ohh.. the ladies will remember dat dere one."
"Yes Ma'am"
Anyone see an opening for charming large friendly southern women into Crackin into their number database, scooping Primo Numbers.. and Hawkin' them on Ebay? I'm in.
Here's the site that pays MY bills Adam
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This reminds me of the legal 'problem' of blackmail which I read up on recently. Blackmail is generally (1) asking someone for money so that you (2) won't disclose certain information. Taken alone, both parts of the transaction are legal, but, put together, they are illegal. Apparently, this is something that legal scholars wrestle with from time to time to try and make sense of it within the greater legal framework of US jurisprudence.
Your analogy of sex for sale is on point. In both the sale of sex and the sale of a telephone number, the parties are freely and willingly exchanging things of value. In the blackmail problem, a first party gets money in exchange for not doing something to hurt a second party. In this case, the nondisclosure of information is presumably not of any value except to the second party.
As I'm sure others have said, the transferability of phone numbers lies in the rights of the number holder. If the company allows them to transfer the number to another, well, then they should be able to do it by sale. If the company reserves this right, however, then the holder can't do it whether for free or for money.
2)People are legally allowed to require money be transfered as a condition of said transfer. Verizon admits that also - they do it all the time.
So Verizon is insisting they do not use the word "sale"/"sold".
Unless you change Point 1 or Point 2, Verizon's belief makes no sense.
I can't sell something I don't own, but I sure can accept a fee to vacate an apartment earlier than my lease. Even though I don't own the apartment, I have rights with respect to that apartment and those rights can be sold. Similarly I now have rights to my phone number, and unless a law states otherwise, Verizon is going to have to admit that I can therefore sell my rights to my phone number.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
Rather than trying to sell a famous number you were lucky enough to receive, just auction off your services to write a No. 1 hit song based on someone's existing phone number. Any old number will do. 861-2443 Yeah bay-beeeee, that's the number for meeeeee...
111-1111 Lois? *damn* 111-1112 Lois? *damn* 111-1113 Lois? *damn*
Stupid people make stupid things profitable.
if 867-5309 is original expression (which it looks like, since the selection of those numbers in the song was original), wouldn't a sale of this number (assuming it's transferrable) be distribution to the public? Fair use factors seem to cut both ways.
According to a bill passed in 1997 providers cannot prevent you from keeping "your" number, if you choose to change providers. This bill has been in effect for sometime now for wired numbers and the wireless equivalence has just taken effect in the top 100 U.S. Markets.
To me this says that verizon cannot stop you from doing whatever you wish with your number. If i owned the number i would transfer it to another C-lec (Competitive Local exchange carrier) so fast it would make verizon's head spin just to piss them off.
Some telcos allow for number transferability. The process is called Supercedure and essentially allows one user to take responsibility (transfer) for a number to another user. There is a small processing fee by the telco but it is a very common practice Ciao
two cans and a string, now that's innovation
You do own domain names, well at least if you live in one of the 12 states that are under the jurisdiction of the 9th Circuit. Read Kremer v. Network Solutions
It's a pdf.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Who owns phone numbers? The phone company? I can transfer my phone number from SBC to Vonage. So, after the transfer Vonage owns the number? They can sell to other companies but not individuals?
Macintosh humor! MacComedy.com
Why not sell something like a pencil or paperclip for $$$BIG$$$ and give the phone number away for free? In fact, why don't prositutes do that. Take them out to dinner and they'll fuck you. Seems legal (immoral, of course) to me. Hmm...
My other car is first.
Could this be an opportunity for someone to set up an escrow service for phone numbers? You transfer your service to the escrow company, which will charge some transfer fee, and allow the number to be assigned to someone else. The new owner now switches to the provider of their choice (at their own expense), and the escrow service gets to pocket the money from the original holder.
You wouldn't even have to provide actual phone service per se, though you could by contracting it out to another carrier and charging as you wish. This would also help ensure people did not stay on your books for more than the minimum amount of time necessary to complete the transaction. Every alternative would be cheaper on usage fees. Where the escrow company would hook people is by offering low switching fees and high usage rates. If you plan to sell your number to someone, do you really want to still be taking calls on it?
Mal-2
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
4)Profit!!!
--I don't want the world, I just want your half.
I stuck my ICQ number (low 1xxxxx) on Ebay a while back, and they pulled it under their Verified Rights Owner program when AOL contacted them.
Apparently AOL were the verified owner of the six digit number.
How can a username be owned? If it is owned by anyone, should it not be me?
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"Dear Justin,
In addition to the cut of your jib I likes the sound of your town. Murfreesboro."
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When I lived in North Alabama and the area code changed to 256, I quickly snapped up the number 256-512-1024 for my pager. No extra charge (except $10 for changing my pager number). Likewise, when I signed up for cell phones, I chose the last 4 digits to spell what I want. Aside from the pager number, I haven't gotten any really sweet numbers that way. Perhaps you can pay more and get a niftier number, but I haven't been that determined.
I hate call waitin`~+~~~
NO CARRIER
Verizon wants people to think that they can't get paid to transfer a number and that's not really true. What they're saying is true that phone numbers technically aren't "owned." But that is clearly not the whole truth and the way Verizon has stated it seems intentionally misleading Not all, but some phone companies have a form for a customer to transfer a phone number or change their name and all have guidelines for this. It's NOT something sinister. You may not technically "own" your number, but you do have rights to it. You have a right to port it from phone company to phone company or from location to location within certain parameters. These rights CAN be transferred, both for residential as well as businesses. If a man dies, would you expect the number to have to be discarded or should the wife be able to take it over? Businesses are sold all the time with their number. When Verizon is asked whether or not it's legal to sell a number their answer is: No. It's illegal to hoard and broker numbers. But that wasn't the question was it? That's misleading! I understand the reasons why they are giving this type of misleading answer. There is no definitive answer, but they don't want to say that. They don't want every customer trying to chase after vanity numbers. They want to retain control of them. So they just say NO! that's not allowed! The ultimate point is that Verizon seems very hypocritical claiming that their customers can't transfer a valuable phone number. How do you think THEY got the number 1-800 2 JOIN IN. It didn't just fall from the sky did it?? If you'd like to see an example of how you can transfer a phone number search for 800 GREAT RATE on ebay. We're auctioning that number off, but not as just a phone number, it's part of a business. It may even get a couple hundred thousand...