British School Offers Elvish Lessons

Adair writes "A school in Birmingham, England is offering its students weekly after-hours lessons in Sindarin, a conversational form of Elvish invented by J.R.R. Tolkien and based on Welsh sounds." It won't be long now until the Klingon to Elvish translation books are produced.

Comments

if women like liv tyler go there

[phaetonic]

i'll be there as well.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[beamin]

More likely a bunch of unwashed geeks in funny clothes...

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[Gramie2]

Does anyone else aside from me feel very disappointed in the casting of Liv Tyler? I had expected a more delicate, nuanced -- hell, elfin look to my elves, especially one who was such an exemplar. I mean, look at Orlando Bloom as Legolas.

Tyler makes me think "heavy," "slow" and, forgive me, "stupid."

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[Nimloth]

I don't see who could've been better, except maybe Natalie Portman...

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[Ganennon]

I wouldn't agree with "stupid", except I saw her hair in the Oscar-thingy. Sad.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[Anonymous Coward]

Thankfully there are guys like you about to scoop up all the ugly girls leaving the pretty ones for the rest of us. Go for it.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[I Be Hatin']

Does anyone else aside from me feel very disappointed in the casting of Liv Tyler? I had expected a more delicate, nuanced -- hell, elfin look to my elves, especially one who was such an exemplar. I mean, look at Orlando Bloom as Legolas.
Tyler makes me think "heavy," "slow" and, forgive me, "stupid."

Not to mention "butt ugly" and "incompetent actress". Seriously, they could've gotten someone much better to play the part. Why they chose her, I'll never understand. And why the fanboys on Slashdot drool over her is completely beyond my comprehension. I mean, Natalie Portman is understandable (ok, she's not that hot, but she's at least attractive), but Liv Tyler is such a fucking stupid looking bitch...

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[turgid]

Tyler makes me think "heavy," "slow" and, forgive me, "stupid."

Quite. Just look at her father. I'm surprised she isn't more ugly. And another thing: isn't he just Mick Jagger with an American accent? Like Janet Jackson is just Michael dressed up as a girl?

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[nehril]

we are fast approaching the day when we can dispense with the traditional engineering/comp sci stepping stones and skip straight to a degree in Modern Geek.

Next year: "Role Playing Dice Combinatorics" and "Galaxy-Class Starship Design and Trivia"

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[slipgun]

Like Janet Jackson is just Michael dressed up as a girl?

Isn't Michael normally dressed up as a girl anyway?

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[Anonymous Coward]

Liv Tyler, Naked and Petrified!

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[Anonymous Coward]

You've got good points there, but it's amusing how Liv Tyler has become such an icon of worship at slashdot that any critical evaluation earns you an automatic troll moderation :)

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[MartinB]

Like Janet Jackson is just Michael dressed up as a girl?

Well have you ever seen them in the same room together?

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah, and what's the best you could get? i don't think you should be out there critiquing. look at yourself: alone, virgin, and bitter. go get laid!!

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[CTachyon]

Like Janet Jackson is just Michael dressed up as a girl?

Whoa there! Just whoa! Janet Jackson is actually Michael in disguise? That's just sick and wrong.

I mean, everyone knows it's *LaToya* who's actually Michael.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[Nimloth]

WTF? I didn't expect positive moderation, but Troll?!
Where do you get that??

Be responsible, don't drink and moderate.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[Anonymous Coward]

I, for one, welcome our new elvish overlords.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[KD5YPT]

Calling others geeks... while we're the biggest community of nerds and geeks.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. I'm no biggot, but these are elves we are talking about. Petite smoking hot 18 year olds can't be that hard to find. Elves are forever young and they stop aging at their peak. Cate Blanchet is beautiful, but she looks too old for an elf IMO. Liv Tyler is also great looking IMO, but not petite.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[wideBlueSkies]

Ever wonder what Geeks did before computers were invented?

I think about the guys who were blacksmiths back then. In a way they were hackers. Turning lumps of metal into things like swords and wheels. Thinking about it, you realize that it wasn't just brute force that made those things happen, you had to be smart. And you had to keep at it until you got it right. Sounds like a geek to me.

And in your spare time, you could dring wine and tell tales of elves and dwarves travelling around having wild adventures.

So yeah, if I was living in medeival times, I'd want to be a blacksmith. Or maybe a carpenter.

wbs.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[wideBlueSkies]

>>Next year: "Role Playing Dice Combinatorics" and "Galaxy-Class Starship Design and Trivia"

How about a series of expert taught classes in Light Saber design? :)

wbs.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[wideBlueSkies]

>>And another thing: isn't he just Mick Jagger with an American accent

I've always thought the same thing.

Mick Jagger and Keith Richards are known as the Glimmer Twins.

Stephen Tyler and Joe Perry are known as the Toxic Twins.

IMHO, they're almost interchangable. I can't think of one without thinking of the other.

Though I have to admit that I think Mick is a better showman that Stephen. Seems to have more class too.

wbs.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[Unregistered]

>>Like Janet Jackson is just Michael dressed up as a girl?

>Well have you ever seen them in the same room together?

Good theory, except she's still black.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[Schemat1c]

So yeah, if I was living in medeival times, I'd want to be a blacksmith. Or maybe a carpenter.

How about an alchemist? They seem more hacker like to me.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[Beardydog]

I'd say it was alchemists...

Staying up til three in the morning tweaking, doing things in a slightly different order, trying to turn something into something else that by all rights it should never become, and in the end YOU FAIL IT.

Totally the geek way.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[J. T. MacLeod]

Like Janet Jackson is just Michael dressed up as a girl?
You're thinking of Barbara Steele.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[lightcycle]

I actually thought Cate Blanchett did a tremendous job as Galadriel. Hugo Weaving however seems far too old to be Elrond, in addition to the obvious Agent Smith associations. And what's the deal with those semifat Noldori they encounter in Lothlorien? Shouldn't elves be thin and slender?

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[Anonymous Coward]

No Cate Blanchet did a great job, she just doesn't look youthful enough for me. I think elves should look about 17-22 years old. Hugo Weaving seemed odd for the very "human" and age related receding hair line. I'm not much of a fan of the movies so I can't comment on the other elves in Lothlorien.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[wideBlueSkies]

Both Schematic and Beardydog are right. Alchemists were definitely geeks in their time.

For what it's worth, both of your posts made me laugh. :) You're friends now.

wbs.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[Frogbert]

Well some of us don't think about things like that.
</roadtrip>

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks! I should make that into a tabloid article, could be great fun...

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry to disappoint you, but actually, learning Elvish is a great way to meet chicks. You just have to know how to do it right.

1. Use the geektitude to learn Elvish.
2. Join a *literary* Tolkien org (literary = lots of chicks who look good but don't care so much about looks, best kind :) ).
3. Demonstrate intelligence and knowledge (this is a literary organization, rememeber?), just remember to be humble every now and then.
4. ???
5. Sex! (definitely beats Profit!)

PS: Yeah, I understand Elvish, and I have met girls that way that were really cool, and good looking, too!

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[double-oh three]

Not to mention that not having eyebrows always gets you noticed.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[gujo-odori]

Agreed. Of course, as a fan of Tolkien's works since I first met them in 1974, I was also appalled at some of the gratuitous changes changes that Jackson made to the story, most particularly Arwen being injected into the role of Glorfindel to rescue the party on the road to Rivendell and carry Frodo across the ford into Rivendell (what kind of agenda was behind that, I wonder?) and the attempt of Faramir to force Frodo to bring the ring to Minas Tirith, taking him as far as Osgiliath (nothing of the sort ever happened; Faramir gave Sam and Frodo provisions and sent them on their way from Ithilien). The only elf at the battle of Helm's Deep was Legolas. Eomer was not in Theoden's best graces, but he was never banished from Rohan, nor was it Eomer who arrived with Gandalf at daybreak, it was Erkenbrand and the remainder of his men from Westfold, who had been scattered by the attack of Saruman's army. They regrouped with Gandalf's help and went on a forced march to Helm's Deep. Eomer and his men were already inside. Since the banishment of Wormtongue and the death of Theodred (he was never brought back wounded to Edoras, he died in the field), Eomer had been made the chief of the armies of Rohan.

Saruman did not create the Uruk-Hai, either (they already existed, he just recruited them and apparently bred them), but that's a minor point.

Of course, you can't fit everything from a book into a movie due to time and budget constraints, but to willfully change a classic story, distorting events and inserting others that never happened at all, is too much. It's especially distressing in Peter Jackson's case, because there is so very much that he got so very right. All of the things he got right make it the things he willfully screwed up even more painful to watch.

Rather than give him an Oscar, I would have whacked him over the head with it and tell him to not screw up The Hobbit like that, but follow the story.

I was so disappointed by The Two Towers that I have not yet seen The Return of the King. I don't know if I'll even bother.

My advice to those who have not read Tolkien (is there anybody like that on /.?) and want to get maximum enjoyment out of the movies is to not read the books before seeing the movies. Only read the books after you've seen all the movies, if at all. You will then see all of the things Jackson bolluxed up, but will not have harmed your initial enjoyment of his work.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[Darby]

Arwen being injected into the role of Glorfindel to rescue the party on the road to Rivendell and carry Frodo across the ford into Rivendell (what kind of agenda was behind that, I wonder?)

The reason for this was that the role of Arwen was very small in the books and PJ wanted to expand the love story aspect of it. Whether or not that's an agenda, I don't know.

Saruman did not create the Uruk-Hai, either (they already existed, he just recruited them and apparently bred them), but that's a minor point.

Yes he did.
The Uruk-Hai were a crossing of orcs and men that Suraman created. They were superior to any orcs Sauron created. I'd be interested to hear of any other reference to them from prior to Saruman's involvement, but I don't think there are any.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[ideatrack]

Remember you're posting on /. so you're right on all counts here.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[turgid]

*cough* *splutter*

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[turgid]

Good theory, except she's still black.

What about boot polish and cocoa powder?

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[quisph]

Like Janet Jackson is just Michael dressed up as a girl?

No, Michael Jackson is Michael Jackson dressed up as a girl. Janet Jackson is Michael Jackson dressed up as a slut.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[gujo-odori]

Expanding the love interest line, which was not of great significance as written by Tolkien is not, IMO, a good reason to change the story.

WRT Saruman and the Uruk-Hai, you are in error. If you read the books closely, you will find that Uruk-Hai are also in the service of Mordor (specifically mentioned in The Two Towers), and there is no implication that Sauron got them from Saruman. The other way around, in fact, seems to me morelikely. There is speculation that Saruman has cross-bred Orcs and humans, however, the result was not Uruk-Hai. If you read carefully, ou will find that orcish humans such as the southerner at Bree who was associating with Bill Ferny, are believed to possibly have resulted from Saruman breeding humans and orcs. Perhaps Jackson simply made the same mistake you have, but in light of his wholesale changes in the story at other points, I doubt it.

Nor did Sauron create the orcs. They were created, or more accurately warped from elves, by Morgoth, of whom Sauron was merely a servant.
It is not made clear how the Uruk-Hai came into being. They may have been made from regular Orcs by Sauron, or they may have evolved on their own. Certainly, if it was beyond Sauron's ability to create the Uruk-Hai from regular orcs, it would have been even farther beyond Saruman's. None of the Istari, including Gandalf and Saruman, who were the mightiest, had the power or depth of lore possessed by Sauron.

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[hc00jw]

It's not like they were in Michael Jackson's "scream" video or anything... :-P

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[Trejkaz]

Having met a large enough number of this sort I would say the parent comment is more Informative than Funny. :-)

Re:if women like liv tyler go there

[funkhauser]

Light Saber design... sounds good. But the prerequisites are a bitch.

Fair enough.

[James A. H. Joyce]

I was going to say that the school should really be offering lessons in "real" languages which are more widely spoken like German and Chinese, but I suppose the kids would rather learn this than anything else. It's not interfering with their normal schooling either, so this can only be a good thing.

Re:Fair enough.

[bj8rn]

Well, it's not as if they'll ever have to use any other language but English anyway. Everybody speaks English, even all those evil Russians in James Bond movies speak almost perfect English (usually with a terrible Russian accent). And if all Chinese speak English, then you may just as well study Sindarin instead of Chinese.

Re:Fair enough.

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

even all those evil Russians in James Bond movies speak almost perfect English (usually with a terrible Russian accent)

I'll let you in on a little secret: most Russians in James Bond are SPECTRE agents disguised as evil commies, in an attempt to fool the world's secret services.

Re:Fair enough.

[bangular]

No it can't. It will make them really weird and widen the gap between them and reality.

Doesn't anyone remember those kids who walked around high school speaking Klingon?!? Can't we learn from history?

Re:Fair enough.

[bj8rn]

No, actually, they're clueless Russian (working for Russian intelligence) agents -- Western actors pretending to be Russian (as in nationality) agents. But the only people they fool are other Western actors, hired by CIA and MI6 and so on, pretending to be James Bond.

Re:Fair enough.

[moggie_xev]

I was listening to the teacher being interviewed on radio four this lunchtime and I will bring the following quotes from the article. Basically Zainab is given optional lesions to children after hours. The school has at least two languages on the curriculum and this is to encourage those who are interested.

Zainab Thorp, a special needs co-ordinator at Turves Green Boys' Technology College in Birmingham, is offering after-hours classes, where pupils struggle through vocabulary and verb tables.

"The reason I'm offering the lessons is to give the boys, some of whom have special educational needs, something to boost their self-esteem.
"They have responded very well and are eager to learn more. It's also very useful if they want to go on to university to study, as it involves looking at some of Tolkien's old manuscripts. This develops some very complex skills."

Re:Fair enough.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, sweet Christ, are you infesting this place with your drivel, too? Go back to trolling Kuro5hin, fuckchop.

Brum

[RobertTaylor]

With the dodgyness of the Birmingham brummie accent do they really need / want to be doing this?

I am Robert Taylor. I AM the President.

Re:Brum

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

With the dodgyness of the Birmingham brummie accent do they really need / want to be doing this?

Perhaps it's a practical joke, English humour can be quite obscure and hard to understand for non-British people.

Given that this new language involves Welsch in some form, I'd say there's a fair chance it's a joke actually...

Re:Brum

[randomblast]

The Beeb?
Make a joke?
Hah!

Re:Brum

[turgid]

That reminds me of a joke.

Noddy Holder goes to a tailors to buy a new suit. The tailor says, "Good day sir, what can we do for you?"

"I'd like a new suit please."

"Very good sir, we have something here that might be to your liking. How about these nice purple velvet flares?"

"Super, says Holder.

"And sir, how about a nice purple velvet jacket, with flares lapels to match?"

"Excellent."

"Now, here I have a nice frilly, lacey white shirt. What does sir think of that?"

"Just what I'm looking for."

"Kipper tie, sir?"

"Oh, thanks mate, milk and two sugars please."

Re:Brum

[Tango42]

What "new language"? Sindarin is hardly new (by conlang standards, not natural ones, obviously). And I don't see why it's so hard to belive. It's an after school club, loads of teachers teach their pupils about their hobbies.

Re:Brum

[Pike65]

I wonder what's Elvish for Bovril?

Re:Brum

[Anonymous Coward]

oi

what yow troyin to say?

Re:Brum

[CowboyNick]

How about an explination for us americans?

Re:Brum

[Zerth]

"kipper tie, sir?"=="Cup of tea, sir?"

Re:Brum

[Anonymous Coward]

How about an explination for us americans?

That is explanation to us Brits.

Re:Brum

[Anonymous Coward]

Cram

Google?

[Texas Rose on Lava L]

Anyone know if Google supports Sindarin?

Re:Google?

[Nimloth]

No but it supports the BORK BORK BORK! language...

Re:Google?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, they've stopped working on new languages a while ago. There are many frustrated speakers of minority languages on the google translation boards, complaining about the fact that google refuses to add new languages, even though they'd get volunteer translators.

Re:Google?

[NotoriousQ]

They would have a techincal problem. I believe there is no current standard for elvish characters in unicode. But it seems that the inclusion has been considered for a while (in the Miscellaneous section)

Re:Google?

[endx7]

They would have a techincal problem. I believe there is no current standard for elvish characters in unicode. But it seems that the inclusion has been considered for a while (in the Miscellaneous section)

In the books, plain old ascii characters were commonly used, so it would be quite possible to do it that way.

Re:Google?

[Trejkaz]

I would be surprised if there were even an ISO 639 language code for it... although...

Oh my god

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

Elvish invented by J.R.R. Tolkien and based on Welsh sounds

Does it mean it has no vowels?

Re:Oh my god

[LizardKing]

I read somewhere that Tolkien based his Elvish language on Finnish rather than Welsh. If so then Elvish probably makes an explicit distinction between front and back vowels, resulting in eight vowels (a, a (auml), e, i, o, o (ouml), u and y).

Chris

Re:Oh my god

[E_elven]

Quenya (the formal, ancient Elvish) is based on Finnish. Sindarin is from the same root grammatically but it sounds more like Welsh. Even the elves couldn't grok Finnish like us natives so they just gave up :)

Re:Oh my god

[CTachyon]

Actually, both. Tolkien based Quenya on Finnish, and Sindarin on Welsh. Which should be very confusing from a linguistic evolutionary standpoint, but works surprisingly well since he didn't borrow any Welsh vocabulary.

Re:Oh my god

[StuWho]

Not at all, listen to the recordings of its most famous speaker Elvish Preshley, to see this is not true.

Re:Oh my god

[LizardKing]

Thanks for the clarification. I'm not much of a fan of Tolkien books, but working in an office full of fantasy buffs I've been exposed to a lot of "Lord of the Rings" trivia. One of my colleagues told me about the Finnis-Elvish link, which piqued my interest and as a result I read up on Tolkien himself. It sounds like he was a fascinating individual, so while I don't rate his books, I admire his thoroughness in creating believable languuages and mythologies.

Chris

This just in...

[Anonymous Coward]

Entire class beaten to near death on first day as jocks create a fake class that teaches "elvish" in a secluded barn. Pictures at 11.

Re:This just in...

[Anonymous Coward]

Entire class beaten to near death on first day as jocks create a fake class that teaches "elvish" in a secluded barn. Pictures at 11.

The battle for middle earth continues...

Re:This just in...

[Art Tatum]

No, that's middle school.

Wow

[benguru]

Wow, shouldn't schools concentrate on teaching real languages, that could be useful in life?

Re:Wow

[YanceyAI]

You mean like Latin and Sanskrit?

Re:Wow

[amembleton]

Yes, but learing a language that you're actually interested in might encourage these kids to learn 'real' languages. Also it'll provide them with the skills to learn the 'real' language.

I find learning easier if I actually enjoy the subject.

Re:Wow

[Xpilot]

Wow, shouldn't schools concentrate on teaching real languages, that could be useful in life?

Who says Sindarin isn't useful? It's great to be able to communicate in a language few people understand. Write down confidential information in Elvish, and then minimize the damage caused if it's accidently discovered by someone else (what are the chances that someone speaks Sindarin?)

Or if you're a programmer, write down all your comments in Sindarin. That way if they fire you they'll have a headache trying to hire a replacement that also knows the language :)

Re:Wow

[gaj]

<humor type=troll>Not necessarily. Many CS programs teach LISP, after all!</humor>

Re:Wow

[Frogmanalien]

To everyone who is quickly dismissing this as pointless- if this is something that the kids *want* to learn, then let them learn it. By learning an additional language (any language) it opens the mind to learning further langauges easier (a well accepted concept in psychology that dual linguists can learn additional languages faster and easier) and opens up a new world- langauge - what language it may be - allows people to see the world through different eyes- whether it's through a different countries or through a famous author's (and in turn his attempt to assimilate ancient cultures) I see no harm in it for opening the eyes of the young!

Re:Wow

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

Or if you're a programmer, write down all your comments in Sindarin. That way if they fire you they'll have a headache trying to hire a replacement that also knows the language :)

# apt-get install xfont-sindarin
Reading Package Lists... Done
Building Dependency Tree... Done
E: Couldn't find package xfont-sindarin

Nuff said... :-)

Re:Wow

[locnar42]

Except that both of these have legitimate uses in the real world, although historical in nature. Several modern languages draw their roots from these languages. Elvish and Klingon are only of use if to read fictional pieces of work. As a special course it's fine, but I wouldn't want it on the regular course schedule.

Re:Wow

[Ateryx]

I agree, oh wait... I actually RTFA

"The reason I'm offering the lessons is to give the boys, some of whom have special educational needs, something to boost their self-esteem.

"They have responded very well and are eager to learn more. It's also very useful if they want to go on to university to study, as it involves looking at some of Tolkien's old manuscripts. This develops some very complex skills."

As many have said, skills learned w/ learning another language, whatever it may be can only help the students expand their minds. The same goes for many math course requirements for non-technical degrees--it is a deductive, logical process of thinking that aids the students, if not the course itself.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

L1k3 31337 h4xx0r 5p24k?

Maybe Mandarin or Cantonese so they can understand their new overlords?

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that both of these have legitimate uses in the real world, although historical in nature. Several modern languages draw their roots from these languages. Elvish and Klingon are only of use if to read fictional pieces of work.

Is reading a fictional piece of work an illeigitmate use or just not something that really happens in your world?

As a special course it's fine, but I wouldn't want it on the regular course schedule.

Should we add, just to avoid confusion, that it would also be bad if it was taught at gunpoint with anyone who uses the wrong verb being shot to death?

It's an after hours school club.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, shouldn't schools concentrate on teaching real languages, that could be useful in life?

I'm a little more worried about the hints in the user talkback section of the story:

My daughter has gone to school today dressed as Arwen

Do we really want to be encouraging cosplay in our schools? Won't somebody please think of the teachers?

Re:Wow

[fermion]

I would prefer pupish

Re:Wow

[E_elven]

>Or if you're a programmer, write down all your comments in Sindarin.

Too late. Found in actual source ca. 1997

// tehse var is teh x taht is usaed in teh
// computeations taht is maked in teh outher
// parts of tihs porgramm mainly. in teh
// scalear vectoreis its' very godd taht teh
// var is checkd to makeing sure its not a
// worng size
void do_draw(int, int, int, float)
...

.

Re:Wow

[Rob Simpson]

Not merely historical - Latin words and word components are used in medical and scientific terminology. Greek components are more commonly used, though.

Re:Wow

[YanceyAI]

and Elvish is a genius creation in a famous peice of literature.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Who the hell mentioned Latin and Sanskit, punk?
Don't assume.

Re:Wow

[Trejkaz]

And Japanese? LOL, heh... just kidding. It has a use in deciphering the voice track on anime.

Zainab Thorp?

[Anonymous Coward]

Zainab Thorp, a special needs co-ordinator at Turves Green Boys' Technology College in Birmingham, is offering after-hours classes, where pupils struggle through vocabulary and verb tables.

Zainab Thorp? It that her elvish name?

Re:Zainab Thorp?

[vranash]

Is that a female name? Cuz 'special needs' and 'boys college' and 'after hours classes' well... I think they may be learning their 'other' elvish :-P

Re:Zainab Thorp?

[Flyboy Connor]

No, it's an anagram of "bonzai phart". (I know the spelling is wrong, but that's Elvish for you!)

Re:Zainab Thorp?

[Idarubicin]

Zainab Thorp? It that her elvish name?

Obligatory link to the Elvish Name Generator. (Hobbit Name Generator also available.)

Why?

[Fawad]

Why not learn a language that matters?
Ive taken it upon myself to learn Spanish, French, Arabic, Indian -- Russian is next on my list. I doubt Ill ever meet more than a few handful of nerds who speak Elvish.

Re:Why?

[mishac]

There's no such language as 'Indian'. There are 18 different "official" langauges in India. Hindi is the "national language", but is the first language of only something like 30-40% of the population.

Re:Why?

[Jarnis]

Which is why everyone outside rural areas in India knows English as second language... :)

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've taken it upon myself to learn Spanish, French, Arabic, Indian -- Russian

And how long did you take to learn each of these languages well? (not counting "indian" of course, which isn't a language).

Or did you just learn pick up lines?

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ive taken it upon myself to learn Spanish, French, Arabic, Indian

There is no languaged called "Indian". There are more than 25 states in India, and each state has its own language, customs, religious/cultural/social practices.

Learn more. India is a very diverse place.

Re:Why?

[IainMH]

It is very obvious that you haven't RTFA.


"The reason I'm offering the lessons is to give the boys, some of whom have special educational needs, something to boost their self-esteem. "

The languages are an educational tool. Latching onto something the kids are really keen on.

Please read the article in future before your knee-jerk quacking.

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about learning African as well?

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not for any particularly pragmatic reason, I'd imagine. Most likely because they are all Tolkien fans. However, the various Elven languages invented by Tolkien certainly have their own appeal, apart from their connection to the creator. I, personally, find them some of the most aesthetically pleasing languages I've ever come across, real or invented, and would like to learn one or two of them myself eventually. Not all knowledge worth learing or creating must be intrinsically useful.

Re:Why?

[rark]

because it's fun? because not all learning has to be (immediately) practically applicable? Because (as others have pointed out) learning about any grammar helps you understand the grammer of your native and secondary languages better?

Or, as we did in high school (yes, a friend of mine learned elvish and passed it on) because it makes a nifty secret language when two people wish to communicate without their classmates/teachers/parents knowing what they are saying. Add a basic substitution cipher and you probably won't keep the NSA confused, but your standard teacher/parent/chaperone types won't know what the heck you're saying.

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats Strange. They must only send the people who can't learn english to the US then.

Re:Why?

[qwertyatwork]

What about the Cherokee? The Seminoles? The Choctaw? Ive never heard of this Hindi tribe.

Re:Why?

[good soldier svejk]

Actually, English is also an official language of the Indian state. The constitution provided for this mainly to facilitate state business between the national government and those of non-Hindi speaking state governments.

at least

[vargul]

some will understand my sig

So in other words...

[ruronikenshin83]

So in other words, they're offerring bullies a central location for all their dork-pummelling needs?

Re:So in other words...

[PsiPsiStar]

Do not meddle in the affairs of medeival geeks,
for they carry swords and study fencing.

The secret code 8)

[Alan Cox]

Welsh has lots of vowels. The secret is that 'w' and 'y' are vowel sounds in Welsh. Its actually fairly phonetic so learning to pronounce Welsh place names isn't too hard, even if "cwmtwrch" initially looks as terrifying as Polish.

Re:The secret code 8)

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

No worries Alan, I was just making fun of the Welsh because it was an occasion to do so, and if I didn't do it, somebody else would have :-)

I am in fact aware that Welsh has vowels, especially since I got a friend from Wales to read me the welsh version of that giant sign on the M4 (westbound) that used to say "welcome to Wales, please dump your rubbish in England".

Re:The secret code 8)

[Anonymous Coward]

"Never ask for directions in Wales Baldrick, you'll be washing spit out of your hair for a fortnight."

Re:The secret code 8)

[masterQba]

Polish roxx you insensitive clod!

Re:The secret code 8)

[Art Tatum]

I had always assumed that Welsh was a form of revenge on the English: "Take over our land will you? Well, let's see you pronounce this!"

While I'm at it, a question from a curious American: do the Welsh, Scots, and Irish all have a commond bond because of their oppression at the hands of the English? I had always assumed that they would but the cultures seem pretty divergent from a distance.

Re:The secret code 8)

[mlush]

even if "cwmtwrch" initially looks as terrifying as Polish.

The nice thing about Polish is that not only can you read eye charts you can also pronounce them

Re:The secret code 8)

[Anonymous Coward]

Bloody hell, how do you trolls get off? I really hope you have no clue about what you're talking about, it's just a shame that some poor sod is going to believe you. Firstly, I am Scottish (living in England), and have some understanding of how the Scottish people feel. We have a long, long history of conflict with the English, and to think it ended when a unification of the monarchy happened is a pipe-dream. Ignoring the distant past, we have a political system in the UK that has trodden all over the scottish people for decades (rememer Maggy? Poll-tax tried out on Scotland for years before the voters in middle england had enough? Almost no Tory MPs in Scotland, but Conservative rule?). Only recently have we had some kind of influence on tax and spending in our own country, and now the pressure is on to remove the power for Scottish MPs to vote in parliament.

On the bond between Scotland, Ireland (Northern, I assume), and the Welsh, have you noticed the devolved assemblies? Admittedly, the Welsh got theirs by a very slim margin, but after the enormous campaigns in Scotland (unfortunately driven by the Sun newspaper and bad Mel Gibson movies), we have only recently had some measure of real influence over our own countries, so the history of 'oppression' is not really that old. The last bastion of English power after the empire dissolved was over the home nations, and we still have enough national identity (not English, and not really British) to feel badly treated by our English 'masters'. We have very close relations with England and cannot realistically survive without them, and this is reflected by the fact that Scottish people can sit in the cabinet. That doesn't mean that all past is forgotten and that we are all one country. We're still having enough of a problem dealing with integration inside Britain, and I think that's why the idea of Europe and the EEC is such an issue, in England as well.

I can't understand why you think that the NI issue is an 'irish-scottish conflict'. Scotland has never been a target for Irish Republicans that I remember. Maybe it's because of the Catholic/Protestant division, and the fact that the Church of Scotland is protestant rather than 'anglican'? It's not that 'english people are now sick to death of NI', everyone that I have spoken to (including NI relatives) want a permanent end to the conflict, not just English people.

The cultures are definitely distinct. That doesn't mean that we ignore, or hate each other. There is bad feeling, sure, but pragmatically we all deal with the current situation the best way we can. That might mean Scottish cabinet ministers, and at the same time anti-English demonstrations. It might also mean that we can have a bond between different cultures recognising past oppression by the English without taking offense to the current English people. Life is complicated!

Re:The secret code 8)

[Anonymous Coward]

Not wanting to respond to the oppression at the hands of the English comment, but do the Welsh, Scots, and Irish all have a commond bond[..]? Answering as a native of one of said countries, I'm not sure what you mean by that. It's fairly common for example for an inhabitant of one of these countries to support the others in sports matches as their second or third teams (particularly when playing England - if you're interested, look on the online rugby forums for the reaction from Scottish and Welsh supporters to the Irish victory over England at rugby today). Relationships between the countries on other levels are rather more complex.

In what way incidentally do the cultures look so divergent?

Re:The secret code 8)

[zhenlin]

Czech tongue twister:

Str prst skrz krk.

(Stick a finger through your throat.)

Hm. W... Ligature for UU... is it pronounced as such in Welsh?

Re:The secret code 8)

[Trejkaz]

Whereas that is hilarious, every eye chart I've ever seen has been pronounceably past the third line anyway. They tend to be stupidly commercialised things, containing names of pharmaceuticals made by the same company that gave the doctor the eye chart.

Re:The secret code 8)

[Art Tatum]

Answering as a native of one of said countries, I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Really, I just meant, "Is there a marked sense of mutual goodwill, particularly because of past offenses by a third-party?" Your comment about Rugby seems to imply that there might.

In what way incidentally do the cultures look so divergent?

I'm not sure that they're all that divergent; but I know that they have at least some differences. Clearly, there are religious differences between the Scots and Irish. From what little I know about Wales (mostly just Child's Christmas in Wales, by Dylan Thomas), they seem to be less related culturally than Scotland and Ireland. I think. :-)

Re:The secret code 8)

[Art Tatum]

On the bond between Scotland, Ireland (Northern, I assume)

Actually, I was more thinking of the Irish Republic. I think the problems in Northern Ireland might cloud the validity of the comparison. :-)

bad Mel Gibson movies

Heh. I heard that the guy who wrote the script was a "visionary" who had absolutely no clue what he was talking about.

We have very close relations with England and cannot realistically survive without them, and this is reflected by the fact that Scottish people can sit in the cabinet. That doesn't mean that all past is forgotten and that we are all one country.

I'm beginning to think that the Scotland/England scenario is something like the North/South division here in the US. We still think the South was on the right side, and we still think the North has messed things up, and we're a little peeved at the stereotypes of "dumb country hicks" that seems to prevail in the North. But we know that we're Americans now and believe in loyalty to our nation, for better or worse. BTW, having seen a few Monty Python sketches that seem more than a little mocking of Scotland, do the English tend to look down at the Scots?

It might also mean that we can have a bond between different cultures recognising past oppression by the English without taking offense to the current English people. Life is complicated!

Absolutely. I didn't really mean to imply that there was visceral hatred for the average Englishman. I think, again, that the situation might be something like the way historically-motivated Southerners feel about Canadians: we can understand how the cultural and military force of the US could be irritating, even though we believe in vigorous defense of our nation and sovereignty. (An interesting parallel: a great many Southerners were of Scottish descent and many Northerners were English. Canadians seem to have strong Scottish representation too.)

Re:The secret code 8)

[Art Tatum]

After all, England and Scotland were united by a Scottish king

Didn't the Scots (especially the strong Presbyterians) feel betrayed by James though?

It would be an odd response to someone else threatening your culture, to give it up to merge with another threatened culture.

I had no illusions about merging cultures. But Scotland and Ireland seem to be related culturally (similarities in clothing, music, and original languages) and perhaps even genetically (I'm not sure about that one). Also, I am talking about the Republic of Ireland, not Ulster.

Oh good!

[Atzanteol]

It's about time the Elvish language is recognized internationally! Too long have the elves been scorned by western nations.

Re:Oh good!

[Anonymous Coward]

That would be eastern nations. The west no longer exists in our world.

Re:Oh good!

[pavon]

Bah, they sailed acrossed the ocean to their "new and better land" and good riddens I say.

Re:Oh good!

[Anonymous Coward]

That would be eastern nations. The west no longer exists in our world.

Then what counterbalances the east and prevents the world tipping over?

Re:Oh good!

[cbr2702]

You forget that the elves sail away to the west to the "undying lands." So the elves /are/ the western nations!

Re:Oh good!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you think it keeps rotating.....duh!

Oddly enough...

[_defiant_]

When you write the language, the vowels do not (usually) have their own character. Based on the "mode" you are writing in, you mark the vowels on the character before or after the vowel sound.

Re:Oddly enough...

[FloppusMaximus]

Yes, but the vowels are rather important -- they discriminate singular and plural forms of most nouns, as in amon a hill vs. emyn hills.

Re:Oddly enough...

[zhenlin]

So... would it be an abjad or abugida ?

Sounds more like abjad.

So now....

[rasafras]

We'll have a legitimate excuse for not understanding what the brits say :)

Re:So now....

[starling]

The American education system?

Re:So now....

[IainMH]

If you can't understand the English speaking English, I rather think that's your problem. ;)

Re:So now....

[Anonymous Coward]

Cheers! Jolly good!

Re:So now....

[eldacan]

No, you will have one more reason to understand them: the University of Texas has been giving elvish courses for years!.

Re:So now....

[Anonymous Coward]

No, that's just the way the president speaks.

Geek Scale

[l810c]

We're all reading Slashdot and I imagine that we all rank pretty high on a Geek Scale of 1-10.

But these guys who learn Klingon(Add now Elvish) are out there, a solid 12 or more.

Re:Geek Scale

[fishbonez]

But these guys who learn Klingon (Add now Elvish) are out there, a solid 12 or more.

I think Gencon is probably the only place where there may actually be a need for Klingon-Elvish translators. It's a Klingon that speaks Elvish. It's an Elf that speaks Klingon. It's a hellish creature made in the darkest depths of geekdom. Run away!

Re:Geek Scale

[Fiz Ocelot]

You really need to watch out for those who speak Elvish in a deep Klingon accent.

Re:Geek Scale

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, that post won't work in Windows XP SP2.

Re:Geek Scale

[Lord_Dweomer]

" I think Gencon is probably the only place where there may actually be a need for Klingon-Elvish translators. It's a Klingon that speaks Elvish. It's an Elf that speaks Klingon. It's a hellish creature made in the darkest depths of geekdom. Run away! "

We'll definitely need Klingon-Elvish translators at the cons of the future. Seriously, if this keeps up, these people are going to forget english entirely. They will not be able to communicate with anyone outside the convention and will have no choice but to become permanent, live in, staff.

Re:Geek Scale

[Aldric]

They will not be able to communicate with anyone outside the convention and will have no choice but to become permanent, live in, staff.

Isn't this what they are aiming for anyway?

Really?

[moronga]

From the article:

"The reason I'm offering the lessons is to give the boys, some of whom have special educational needs, something to boost their self-esteem."

How does getting beaten up everyday improve your self-esteem?

That quote is from the teacher, Zainab Thorp, btw. Which sounds more like a Harry Potter name to me. Maybe she should be teaching parseltongue?

Re:Really?

[Ganennon]

I thought parseltongue was a talent only possible to acquire at birth (or when your archenemy accidentally hands over some of his powers to you when trying to kill you).

Re:Really?

[Tango42]

That, and I don't think JK Rowling is into conlangs, so we might be waiting a while for the dictionary...

And I'm sure...

[Anonymous Coward]

she's thinking the same thing. :P

Any experience is valuable

[sarastro_us]

After learning your second language, each additional one you learn becomes easier. Yes, kids will be more interested in learning Sindarin because is fun, but they're still learning valuable cognative principles for future language study.

Tolkein's work is fabulious in terms of its depth. He was a great lanugage scholar and it shows in his attention to detail in the languages he created. I don't know if the same thing can be said for those who created Klingon...

Re:Any experience is valuable

[pavon]

What would be best is if we "taught" multiple languages to our kids as toddlers. This way they would pick up a language naturally, rather than spending years working hard to learn it latter, and never becomming quite fluent. Also like you said, being bilingual somehow conditions your brain to make it easier to learn more languages latter on.

Re:Any experience is valuable

[krusadr]

Where is this language documented? Where is the dictionary, verbs conjugations, grammatical constructs, gender treatments etc etc?

To what degree can complex and subtle nuances be expressed in this one-man made up language?

Not a troll - I'm interested and sceptical. Enlighten me.

Re:Any experience is valuable

[sarastro_us]

For starters, go here.

Re:Any experience is valuable

[TheAntiCrust]

That makes me think we'd either have the Japanese and poorly learned english of Japan, or the poorly learned english and slang ridden spanish of the mexicans here (california). Those are the only two examples I can think of where they try to speak two languages at a time. It seems to not work so well... we should all just speak one language. Though thats happening already. Its just a matter of time before the effeciency and ease of having a world wide language or two and almost no others naturally just happens.

Re:Any experience is valuable

[Ubergrendle]

Speaking from personal experience, in Ontario we're taught French from grade 2 all the way to Grade 12 (end of high school). I never developed more than a passing understanding of the grammar and vocabulary, just enough to get me past each grade.

Fast forward a few years, and I ended up spending 2 months in Quebec one summer. I picked up more in those two months than after 10+ years of school. Part of it was motivation, definitely, but I think that it is very difficult to learn a language in a formal setting, 30 minutes per day, 5 days a week. Especially when I'm busy trying to learn things like Calculus, Physics, Geography, History, etc etc.

Re:Any experience is valuable

[Westech]

What would be best is if we "taught" multiple languages to our kids as toddlers. This way they would pick up a language naturally, rather than spending years working hard to learn it latter, and never becomming quite fluent.

While I agree with you that this would make it easier on them to pick up additional languages, wouldn't it slow down the child's abilility with their first language (as compared with other children learning only one language?)

Re:Any experience is valuable

[JonKatzIsAnIdiot]

I know someone who used to take care of kids in the 6 months - 10 years age group, and one thing that she always commented on was that the kids that were placed in 'French immersion' schools were quite far behind in English grammer, vocabulary and sentence structure than their counterparts. It seemed like their English suffered because they were trying to learn two languages at once.

Personally, I think the best thing is to find out what the kid's strengths are, whether it be language, science, math, music or trades, and encourage them to go in that direction.

Re:Any experience is valuable

[aardvarkjoe]

The poorly learned English in Japan is due to the fact that they learn it in school, without conversing with native English speakers. The poor English of many spanish speakers is because, again, most of them never associate with english speakers or have to use English. (For instance, so-called "bilingual" education, in most places, amounts to giving all the instruction in Spanish.) When young children are exposed to multiple languages on a regular basis, they usually become fluent in both.

Re:Any experience is valuable

[belmolis]

The generally poor English conversation skills of Japanese people do not support the position that learning two languages at once works poorly. The fact is that English is poorly taught in Japan. Very few Japanese teachers of English actually speak English themselves. Furthermore, the curriculum and exams, especially the all-important University entrance exams, emphasize the ability to read English, not to speak it.

An example of a country with succesful, quality language-teaching is the Netherlands. A Dutch high-school graduate will generally be fluent in English and capable of getting by in French and German. In Dutch Universities, classes in the languages taught in high school are conducted in the language. That is, if you major in French at the university level, your classes, including classes in subjects like literature and linguistics, will be conducted in French.

There are also many societies in which children grow up fluent in two or more languages as a result of using different languages in different contexts, e.g. one at home and another at school. Millions of immigrants to the US, for example, have grown up speaking both fluent English, learned outside the home, and their heritage language: Italian, Yiddish, Chinese, Polish, etc. Swedish Finns, such as Linus Torvalds, grow up bilingual in Finnish and Swedish, and like other Finns, most acquire a good command of English by the end of high school.

Multilingualism is common in much of Africa. People often speak their local language, a regional African language, such as Swahili, and thelanguage of the former colonial power, which often serves as a national language, such as French or English. To take an admittedly somewhat extreme case, I have a friend from Eritrea who speaks Tigrinya, Tigre, Amharic, Beja, Nara, Sudanese Colloquial Arabic, and Modern Standard Arabic. He's been in the US for a couple of years and his English is imperfect but quite servicable. In all probability, most people who have ever lived have probably spoken at least two languages. Monolingualism is pathological.

Re:Any experience is valuable

[multipartmixed]

I did kindergarten and grade on in French immersion. At least back then, French immersion was pure French for 99.999% of instruction (except for stuff like explaining fire drills and saying "don't shit in your desk!").

By the time I'd moved to Quebec in grade two, all I had to do was expand my vocabulary a little (learn how to swear) and fix my accent. But I was able to get along from day one.

And you're right. 30 minutes a day is almost useless. If they were serious about teaching French, classes like gym, art, and mathematics would be taught in French to supplement the 30 minutes. That should be enough to kick the retention up a notch.

Re:Any experience is valuable

[eldacan]

Where is this language documented?

Have a look at this page. The first significant pieces of information concerning elvish languages (Quenya, Sindarin, etc.) were published in the Lord of the Rings, appendices E and F to the third volume in particular. Since then, many readers wrote letters to Tolkien, asking for more information, and he answered. Some info was thus published in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.
Then you have the posthumous works (The Silmarillion with a linguistic index by Christopher Tolkien, based on his father's notes, The Unfinished Tales, the twelve volumes of The History of Middle-earth, ...). Most significant is volume 5 from the History of Middle-earth: "The Lost Road and other Writings", which includes The Etymologies, ie. more than fifty pages of elvish roots, and the way they evolved in words in the various elvish tongues (all elvish tongues, and Quenya and Sindarin in particular, are related. All come ultimately from the "Common Elvish"). What's more, most of the names in Tolkien's world have a known meaning.

As for now: Christopher Tolkien (Tolkien's son) sent photocopies of most of his father's papers that are related to the languages of Middle-earth to a group of people who had been editing a fanzine (Vinyar Tengwar) on this topic for several years, with the authorization for them to publish all the material. Thus more and more information is being published concerning Tolkien's languages. "Small" works are published in Vinyar Tengwar, while more comprehensive ones are published in Parma Eldalamberon (most notable are issues 11, 12, 13 and 14. Issue 11 includes the so called "Gnomish Lexicon", Gnomish being an "early version" of Sindarin, and issue 12 the "Qenya Lexicon", Qenya being an "early version" of Quenya, though this is an over-simplification). There are thousands of pages waiting to be published, including detailed grammatical descriptions, etc.

Where is the dictionary, verbs conjugations, grammatical constructs, gender treatments etc etc?

The website Ardalambion given in another comment will give you this kind of information, though it represents the view of its author (Helge Fauskanger), which are sometimes subject to controverse. There is a comprehensive Sindarin dictionary compiled by Didier Willis, which you can download on his website Hisweloke (DragonFlame 2.0 is the best way to get the latest version, but it's a Windows program. However, it uses QT and is licensed under the GPL so anyone is welcomed to port it to Unix).

To what degree can complex and subtle nuances be expressed in this one-man made up language?

Tolkien himself wondered how much poetry, etc. an invented language could really reach (see The Monsters and The Critics). But he was of course technically able to build quite complex sentences, with subtle nuances, etc. "one-man language", yet the work of more than half a century (he started devising these tongues in the second decade of the century, and refined them until his death in 1973). However, it's virtually impossible for anyone else to compose a "new" complex elvish sentence, ie a sentence about which one could say "this is true elvish". One reason for that is that Tolkien always changed his mind, his languages were not fixed in any way (though he felt "bound" by the published material). But even if all the published material was "consistent", there would still be huge lacunes in the available knowledge. This may change when more material is published in Vinyar Tengwar / Parma Eldalamberon... But note that most "experts" don't consider "movie-elvish" as genuine. Some even call this neo-Sindarin "mishmash"...

Re:Any experience is valuable

[Anonymous Coward]

In all probability, most people who have ever lived have probably spoken at least two languages.

Generally two dialects of Chinese.

Re:Any experience is valuable

[moranar]

My native language is Spanish, but spending a lot of time being baby-sit by my grandparents made me learn Italian as a "mother-tongue" as well.

Growing up, it was much easier for me to take English and French classes because of this. I can now speak fluently in English, Italian and of course Spanish (sadly, I haven't had much practice of French, but what I knew did save my ass when traveling through France). Perhaps it's just me, but somehow I don't think so.

Re:Any experience is valuable

[wideBlueSkies]

My daughter is learning Spanish from watching that Dora the Explorer cartoon.

From a social standpoint, I'm not sure if I like the idea(This is America, the language here is English). I think I'm getting over this old style thinking a bit, becasue from an educational standpoint, I see her learning 2 languages. It's cool hearing her ask for the same thing in English and Spanish.

wbs.

Re:Any experience is valuable

[Uber Banker]

Most Japanese don't speak fluent English and don't claim to. Some benefit from good instruction, some try self-learning on top of typically poor instruction, good on them.

Have you ever visited the Netherlands? The majority of the population speak reasonable English and German, as well as Dutch, and in many cases additional languages - French, Spanish, etc.

It is not hard to become fluent in another language - systematic and disciplined learning with a reasonable resource are all that are needed - this is easy if you have caught the 'bug' of language.

I agree a 'core' common language makes business-related communication more efficient, but that is no reason to leave other languages. Language is a means of expression - there is no need to converge languages for this, infact (as you point out wrt slang) language evolves and changes quickly with this in mind. There are many major languages in the world now - English, Spanish, French, Russian, Arabic, Hindi, Chinese (Mandarin)... try converging or replacing these!

Re:Any experience is valuable

[Sven-Erik]

Another extreme way of learning french would be to join the French Foreign Legion...

Re:Any experience is valuable

[PressReturn]

If they were serious about teaching French, classes like gym, art, and mathematics would be taught in French to supplement the 30 minutes. On the other hand, why should a student who struggles with French have their math education compromised?

Re:Any experience is valuable

[Anonymous Coward]

You need to interact with native speakers to really learn another language. Sure, it helps to start young, but...

Really, all college-educated Americans I know of had to learn another language at some level. However, most of us never meet more than a few native speakers of that language, and thus forget almost everything we learn.

C'est la vie...

Re:Any experience is valuable

[frequnkn]

Although learning extra languages is great, children who are raised in truly bilingual environments often show slightly lower math and science comprehension, particularly at the lower grade levels. I'm not sure why that is, but it was considered true when I took undergrad Anthropology. I suppose it could be sysmptom or a side effect...

Homes and schools that truly integrate multiple languages might want to keep the above in mind, and adjust pedagogy accordingly.

-Foo

Re:Any experience is valuable

[gujo-odori]

wouldn't it slow down the child's abilility [sic] with their first language

Not at all. My daughter will be 16 months old this month and speaks both English and Vietnamese, and does both better than most kids monolingual kids who are between 18 and 24 months old. She already forms grammatical sentences up to five or six words in length and has been doing that for a couple months already. She is highly vocal and tends to learn most words in both English and Vietnamese about the same time.

Additionally, a couple of my closest friends are Singaporean; one speaks four languages, and the other speaks five (four natively). I speak only English (native), Japanese (business level) and a little Vietnamese, and going to Singapore makes me feel linguistically undereducated. A Singaporean who is only bilingual is way behindthe curve; even a trilingual Singaporean is no better than average.

It is well-attested in the literature that bilingualism or multilingualism from infancy or early childhood increases the ease of language acquisition, both of childhood languages and languages acquired later. In effect, a child who is bilingual (or more) from the start does not have a first language; rather, she has several first languages.

Incidentally, most of the Vietnamese that I understand came not from formal teaching (although I've taken a few classes), but just from being surrounded by a lot of (mostly monolingual) native speakers as a part of daily family life. Words related to babies figure particularly prominently in the mix, of course. The fact that I already spoke two languages before acquiring any Vietnamese has made learning Vietnamese much easier, especially with trying to get my mouth around the pronunciation. Both as a tone language and as a language with a vowel system significantly different than that of English or the far simpler Japanese vowel system, pronunciation has been the hardest thing about learning Vietnamese.

Re:Any experience is valuable

[Jardine]

Odd. We didn't start French until grade 4 and didn't have to take it past grade 9. Completely useless in my region (Southwestern Ontario) anyway and the phrases taught were also useless. J'ai une stylo bleu. When the hell would I say that? The only useful phrase I remember is 'Ou est la toilette?'

Re:Any experience is valuable

[stor]

They're trying to attack that problem in Japan. There has been a lot of opportunity for foreigners to teach "Conversational English" to native Japanese in the past few years. There are agencies over there specialising in providing teachers of C.E.

In fact my brother is currently in Tokyo doing just that (he's been there for over a year now). A few friends of mine have done it too.

Cheers
Stor

Re:Any experience is valuable

[omarin]

...I'm sorry but you're making a gross over-generalization about the Latino population in California, and you must be monolingual (*spit*) yourself, as you obviously don't have a clue about the fact that bilingualism DOES work:

FYI, I have two brothers, and we three are Mexican-Americans: I was born and grew up in Mexico until I was 7 y.o., and then we moved to California. My two brothers were born & grew up in the USA. We were brought up speaking both English and Spanish (my mom spoke to us in Spanish only), and we sound like typical Californian boys... and we speak/read/write English AND Spanish just fine, muchas gracias!

And "slang ridden"?? Where have YOU been? For instance, listen to any white, English-speaking 16 year old in California, and they won't be speaking BBC English/your parents' English... they'll be speaking the argot common to any American kid... slang is not a crime, and believe it or not there are plenty of eloquent English-speaking Mexicans from/in California... (moi, for example, at the risk of being immodest ;-)

Besides, from the MANY errors I've seen on Slashdot (let alone anywhere else), many native/monolingual English speakers themselves could use English lessons...

I guess what I'm trying to say is: don't assume everyone is as linguistically deficient as you may be... ;-)

Thanks for the heads-up

[October_30th]

As a dog lover

Well, well, well... some things don't change.

Quite frankly, I miss Jon and his trollfest articles.

Re:Thanks for the heads-up

[Anonymous Coward]

thats almost as nerdy as that nintendo controller belt buckle at nesbuckle.com lol
but not quite

Re:Thanks for the heads-up

[gnalle]

Me too. I wish he would return to slashdot.

Possible Advantages

[quantaq]

I don't know much about Latin, and I know even less about Elvish, but I've read before that learning Latin can enhance your general mental capabilities (owing to it being such a heavily structured language). I've also read that learning any language can enhance one's general intelligence. Elvish offers a way in to an exercise that otherwise kids may avoid. In other words, the actual language doesn't really matter for the above situation, but I do feel it would be more beneficial to learn a real language instead. Perhaps Elvish could lead students to eventually tackle another language?

Re:Possible Advantages

[Anonymous Coward]

Latin helps enhance your vocabulary due to cognates-- many times in the past I'd be able to make an educated guess about the meaning of an English word that I didn't already know, because it had a Latin root that I did know.

All learning Elvish will do will ensure the speaker's reputation as a D&D-playing virgin.

Re:Possible Advantages

[16K Ram Pack]

I don't know about Elvish, but one of the principal things about Latin is that so much of our western language derives from it - English, French, Italian (and I guess Spanish too). It teaches a whole lot about structure.

Also, for some people learning Latin, if you have an interest in history, you get to read a lot about the Romans.

What it comes down to ...

[ProfMoriarty]

is that you don't get the full effect of the "Lord of the Rings" without reading it in it's native Elvish.

Re:What it comes down to ...

[Epistax]

You're wrong. You need to read it in the original Klingon.

(/most nerdish comment, ever)

Re:What it comes down to ...

[Tango42]

LOTR in Klingon... Eru help us! Does anyone actually own the "original" Hamlet they published? (I must confess to owning the Klingon dictionary, and having downloaded a Quenya course...)

Re:What it comes down to ...

[Speare]

The book for "the Lord of the Rings" was titled the Red Book of Westmarch, and was mostly written in the Hobbits' tongue, a branch of "Westron," or the Common Tongue. Bilbo picked up a fair amount of Elvish. While Frodo learned a bit of Elvish, he was not what you would call fluent. Samwise, who edited the whole set of papers afterwards, didn't know very much Elvish at all; most of what he learned would have been after the whole ordeal, perhaps during his terms of office as Mayor.

Now, in actuality, there are photos of some of the original manuscripts for the Silmarillion and "lost tales," and J.R.R. Tolkien really did pen them in Feanorian characters, in the same sort of phonetic English that you see in the trilogy's mastheads. You can read along if you're careful. There are a fair number of ligatures, like S+T, not described in the LotR appendices, but which are pretty easy to figure out.

Re:What it comes down to ...

[Matrix14]

Actually, that's true. My very limited knoweldge of Sindarin, and much smaller knowledge of Quenya made certain aspects of LotR more interesting.

Also, in the Lord of the Rings movies, there's at least one pun in Sindarin.

Re:What it comes down to ...

[MindNumbingOblivion]

I don't know whats worse, your comment, or the fact that I dimly recall the TNG episode that's from...

::frantically looks for something non-nerdy to do::

What?

[Moderation abuser]

Nah. All the other countries should learn to speak english. We can always just speak louder and slower at them when they don't uderstand.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

That would be louder, slower, and with glaring grammetical errors.

"YOU... BREAK... SPEED... LIMIT... YOU... SLOW... DOWN!"

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah. All the other countries should learn to speak english.

That did seem like a promising theory, but so far our attempts to teach English to Americans has been a complete catastrophe. I don't think we're ready to try the whole world at once.

So...

[iminplaya]

(Foster Brooks voice)Elvish has left the building?

Re:So...

[Anonymous Coward]

You should be smacked.

Re:So...

[BiggerIsBetter]

That's funnier with a Sean Connery voice.

Re:So...

[liquidsin]

The mod who marked this comment "+1, Insightful" is a goddamn genius! Best comedic use of mod points EVER!

ugh

[laurent420]

i think i need another raktajino, what kind of p'tach would want to learn elvish?

Re:ugh

[Cyno01]

Raktajino is barely Klingon, its a bastardized pujmoH federation version of the drink, which is as much "klingon coffee" as a starbucks frappuchino is earth coffee. Now prune juice on the other hand, there's a warriors drink...

Re: parseltongue?

[Migraineman]

It that the language the UPS-guy from MadTV speaks?

Klingon

[nnnneedles]

Lund University http://www.lu.se in Sweden had or has a course in Klingon..

I have a friend who attended and it sounded like a lot of fun, especially If you are already studying languages..

Elvish might not be as much fun but it is probably even cooler..

Re:Klingon

[Ganennon]

I thought skanska and klingon was the same thing? ;)

Re:Klingon

[amRadioHed]

Cooler? Than Klingon you say? Please tell me you're joking.

Re:Klingon

[Anonymous Coward]

Elvish is better if you want to pick up babes. (Have you even seen Klingon women? Shudder. )

Re:Klingon

[Andreas(R)]

mol 'oH Qo'noS QonoS'e'. tlhIngan Hol jatlhwI'pu'vaD wIcherpu'. naDev vuDmey Daj lutmey Sagh je DalaDlaH, 'ach tlhIngan Hol DayajnIS. Hoch ja

Re:Klingon

[Andreas(R)]

Gur Xebabf Puebavpyr vf n cebwrpg bs gur Xyvatba Ynathntr Vafgvghgr, vagraqrq sbe Xyvatba fcrnxref. Urer lbh pna ernq vagrerfgvat bcvabaf naq negvpyrf, ohg bayl vs lbh pna haqrefgnaq Xyvatba. Rnpu zbagu jr jvyy unir n arj vffhr sbe lbh gb ernq naq cenpgvpr lbhe fxvyy.

Re:Klingon

[E_elven]

Phnglui mgwa nafh, Cthulhu R'lyeh w'gahnagl fthagn!

Re:Klingon

[Anonymous Coward]

Tuo on kylla aika perseesta.

Miksi editorit eivat ole moderoineet teita alas jo?

Re:Klingon

[SmackCrackandPot]

The Kronos Chronicle (ISSN 1526-7105) is a project of the Klingon Language Institute, intended for Klingon speakers. Here you can read interesting opinons and articles, but only if you can understand Klingon.

Source: http://www.kli.org/QQ/

Re:Klingon

[Anonymous Coward]

Woah!

Tolkien was also a linguist.

Re:Klingon

[netcrusher88]

Ah, but you see, Tolkien *was* a trained linguist. Granted, Elves are not technically aliens, but it could be said that aliens are the elves of sci-fi.

Re:Klingon

[dunham]

Also, Tolkien created more than one language. Quenya being the most complete, followed by Sindarin, and a few bits and pieces in other languages. And he created an etymology for the languages based on a root language (in the same way that proto-indoeuropean is a common root for most indo-european languages).

Detailed information can be found in book four of Christopher Tolkien's "papers I found lying around my dad's house" series.

Re:Klingon

[atlasheavy]

Lund University http://www.lu.se in Sweden had or has a course in Klingon
luse(r) ?

Ehhh, it's too easy to even make it worthwhile...

Re:Klingon

[Artifakt]

That's wgah'nagl, not w'gahnagl, you insensitive clod.

Re:Klingon

[E_elven]

Your version is a common misliteration of the first versions of the book (anything written in blood on not-yet-dried skin is hard to read), and has been the cause of our failures so far. Only recent study has corrected the diphtong, and soon it will be the day our Master shall return. I, I!

Re:Klingon

[Artifakt]

Oh! Well carry on then.

Re:Klingon

[Trejkaz]

Hmm. Well I don't care when he returns as long as I'm eaten first. Or not at all...

So what's elvish for

[ReadbackMonkey]

I've never kissed a girl?

Re:So what's elvish for

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, aren't you on Slashdot?

Re:So what's elvish for

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't kissed a girl either and I'm 32, male and no, I don't fancy boys.

Women are scary. That's why.

Re:So what's elvish for

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no words for "I've never kissed a girl" in Elvish... it's the normal condition of all Elvish speakers, so there's no reason to discuss it.

Re:So what's elvish for

[Anonymous Coward]

(I'm the parent)

Just to add: Women are scary because they've got the verbal skills to insult you so that you wish you were dead and, as a man, I am still supposed to pay them every courtesy possible.

disturbing

[Anonymous Coward]

Mrs Thorp, who studied ancient Egyptian at university, said: "Tolkien never left a word meaning 'to love'.

Well perhaps a long-lived race as the elves did not have the concept of love or understood love in a far more abstract fashion than humans, dwarves or orcs.

Also serious queers speak la lingvo geja not Sindarin.

Re:disturbing

[shadowbearer]

More likely that they never learned to hate, therefore did not require a word that meant the opposite; love simply 'was'.

Too bad JRR isn't around to ask about that :(

SB

Re:disturbing

[devphil]

Um. You really need to read the Silmarillion. The early Elves had already fought two bloody battles of a civil war before the race of Men even awakened, all because of the Vow of Feanor, to "persue with hatred" anyone who kept a Silmaril from its rightful owners.

When an Elf tells a Man, "go hence unto a swift and bitter death," before shooting at his girlfriend with a poisoned arrow, I'd say they understood hatred just fine. :-)

Re:disturbing

[shadowbearer]

Um.

Good point. The last time I read S. was around '91 or so.

Mud on my face, forsooth :) Well, it was the ancient elven race, but you made a good point. Damn, Tolkein was deep.

Just out of curiosity, how long did it take to research your comment? :)

SB

Re:disturbing

[devphil]

Just out of curiosity, how long did it take to research your comment? :)

Heh, this will be disturbing: it's from memory. :-) S. happens to be one of my favorite books, because the style requires so much imagination to visualize it mentally, instead of just reading a straight description with nothing left to the imagination. I've always enjoyed that, even though it's extra work. The immense scope of the action is just freaking astounding.

Besides, "go hence unto a swift and bitter death" is just a memorable line in general. If I ever leave a job I don't like, maybe I'll use it during the exit interview. :-)

(The secret to getting through the dry style: read it aloud. It's meant to be told, not read, like a bard reciting in the firelight at the front of a king's hall. The very very early forms of the S. stories actually have a bard telling all of this stuff to a traveller, with occasional comments and questions from the listeners; in the published form, that "wrapper" layer is gone, but the style didn't change.)

That's nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

Here at UT (as in Texas, not Tennessee), we've had a course on the linguistics of ALL the Middle-Earth languages since last year.

Re:That's nothing

[Daemis]

And on the first day, the teacher said, "Mankoi lle irma sint, y'all?" And so y'all know, he ain't lyin'! =)

Re:Thankya vury much

[Anonymous Coward]

Did anyone else read this as "British school offers ELVIS lessons"?

*sigh*

Okay, Slashdot 101: there are things that you think are funny, that used to be funny, but aren't anymore and are getting really thick and annoying. Posting "I thought I read that as [insert something funny here]" or "did anyone else read this as [insert something funny here]" in the hope of being funny is one of them. If nothing in the /. blurb or in the article is funny, making up your own version of it won't make it any funnier.

And in your case, even the version you made up is pathetic...

There are more than 100 'Indian' languages...

[varunrebel]

There is no 1 language that is 'Indian'. Maybe you are referring to Hindi , that national language.

India has 18 national languages in all. Here is a list of those languages and 844 dialects

Thanks.

Re:There are more than 100 'Indian' languages...

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you are referring to Hindi , that national language.

Close; I made it up for some easy karma.

Thought he had left the building

[bstadil]

Long live the King

Brought to you by DAMM (Mothers Against Dyslexia)

Maybe it will catch on like Esperanto

[intertwingled]

Maybe Sindarin will replace Esperanto.

Re:Maybe it will catch on like Esperanto

[Anonymous Coward]

Videble vi scias neniun, pri kiu vi parolas. Oni nur devas vidi la esperanta vikipedion por scii, ke esperantistoj jam estas tre nombraj. Neniam artifarita lingvo sen tutmonda disvastigxo, sen jam inda literaturo, sen la gramatika malfacileco de la Zamenhofa lingvo povus kreski pli ol gxin. Esperanto jam estas monddisvastigxita lingvo, cxiu alia artefarita lingvo ne.

Re:Maybe it will catch on like Esperanto

[Anonymous Coward]

I know artificial languages too:
Havrekakor ar goda. Oh, mor, en orm! Far, vi aker i fel fil! Vi hade i alla fall tur med vadret. Ursakta mig, men var ligger postkontoret?

Re:Maybe it will catch on like Esperanto

[Trejkaz]

Flobba-dob blib blob bleeb!

Single-moms bring up scarred boys

[Anonymous Coward]

I am still supposed to pay them every courtesy possible

Just what the FUCK?

Let me guess. A single-mom brought you up and fed you with that horseshit?

Women are just as much sexual predators as men. They cheat, lie and scheme like the best (worst) of us to further their goals.

No wonder you're single and trouble dealing with women. You're just as open to abuse as a fresh Windows 2000 installation without any service packs or firewalls. Furthermore, contrary to the outward appearances, deep inside the women don't like men who won't put up a "manly" defence of their independence.

Elvish ...

[Snork Asaurus]

has left the smial.

Thenkyou, thenkyouverymusshhh...

fat, smell geeks?

[zephc]

gives new meaning to the unwashed masses

Klingon dates me?

[Tablizer]

Klingon is obsolete already? Wow, and I thot programming fads changed fast. So Elvish geeks are hipper than Klingon-speaking geeks? Not that geeks are known to be hip, but this just makes Elvish geeks slightly less dispised than Klingon geeks. It is like Musolini bragging that he is less hated than Hitler.

BTW, I think UPN should bring out a Klingon-centric series. The concept of obsessed warriors would be appealing to a wide audience because of the violence, bravery, grunting, worm-eating, etc. They could use ideas from Sparta and Samuri culture. Spartans had a lot of Klingon-like ideas and warrior poetry.

The setting could be the early days of the Klingon alliance. Two Earthlings could be assigned to a Klingon ship and deal with the culture clashes and the adjustments as Klingons have to learn to live within Federation policies. The Klingon captain is constantly challenged by other Klingons for following the "soft" federation guidelines, but he will be demoted by the federation if he goes traditional. Thus, he walks a tightrope between two cultures. He has to act like he dispises the earthlings, but they are sort of closet friends because they learn from each other.

One of the earthlings is talked into the Klingon assignment by the other, his buddy, who is gung-ho about the challenge. Thus, one of the earthlings has a harder time adjusting to the klingon ship and culture in a Hoshi-like way. The gung-ho earthling eventually has a Klingon girlfriend and always has scratches from making klingon love to her. Or, perhaps the reluctant earthling is the one who falls in love with the klingon babe.

Re:Klingon dates me?

[Anonymous Coward]

Spartans had a lot of Klingon-like ideas and warrior poetry.

Umm, I think you mean to say that the Klingon concept has borrowed a lot from Spartan society.

Re:Klingon dates me?

[Lord_Dweomer]

"So Elvish geeks are hipper than Klingon-speaking geeks? Not that geeks are known to be hip, but this just makes Elvish geeks slightly less dispised than Klingon geeks. It is like Musolini bragging that he is less hated than Hitler."

Its like the Apple geek thinking they are cooler and more stylish than a Linux geek.

Re:Klingon dates me?

[Tablizer]

Its like the Apple geek thinking they are cooler and more stylish than a Linux geek.

Maybe they are. It doesn't mean apple is technically better, just that applites get laid more, perhaps because the box, mouse, and icons are sexier to the babes.

Elvish Kings

[Doc Ruby]

Languages like Quenya must be learned outside, among Nature. That's why the mobs go nuts when we hear the phrase "Elvish has left the building".

The new academic language?

[zaunuz]

Latin has been used for many years now, but im sure many are getting tired of it. Perhaps Elvish could take over?

What's wrong with that?

[jeffasselin]

I've put some time myself in learning Sindarin and Quenya. Not to a conversational level, but enough to be able to say simple phrases and understand them. Enough to understand a lot of the dialog in the movies, and to translate most place-names in LotR and the Silmarillion as I (re-)read them.

I can also read and write Tengwar, the Elvish writing system (at a slow pace). There are a number of resources available on the web at the moment for all this.

http://www.ardalambion.com/

is one of the best, with links to other resources on the web.

http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/language.htm

is also a good resource.

What's more, every year more of the professor's material on those languages is published, and more knowledge of those tongues is acquired so that the information gets refined. Actual teaching of the language is great, as others said it increases interest in languages in general, which is good.

Before looking seriously at Elvish, I learned English, German, and Latin (my first tongue was French). I can usually figure out written material in Italian and Spanish. So my interest in Elvish was NOT alone but only part of a general interest in languages, and learning the basis of those made-up languages made me aware of certain concepts of language which are not always readily apparent in real-world languages, but yet are useful for a deeper understanding of them.

Instead of Elvish...

[omarin]

...why not teach the kids a MORE useful artificial language: Esperanto? Esperanto at least helps them NOW in their life if they want to make penpals/friends worldwide, read a diverse range of books, or if they want to then move onto Spanish/Italian/French/other languages (using their REAL-WORLD grammar skills gained via Esperanto as a tool to aid further language learning...)
OR, encourage the kids to then move from Elvish to Esperanto? I say this because in my opinion Elvish is a linguistic dead end for them, whereas Esperanto is a "gateway" to a whole community (Fer instance: Q: how many books, websites and magazines are regularly printed in Elvish? (a: very few, versus Esperanto's many, many....)

Re:Instead of Elvish...

[MurrayTodd]

When I was a kid I was really resentful of people trying to decide my curriculum based on what they thought was useful. I had the ability to dedicate a fantastic amount of concentration and study on whatever interested me, and "later usefulness" had no bearing on this.

If kids get excited about learning Elvish or Klingon, by all means we should embrace their excitement. That will lead to "ins" in their intellectual development we could never guess at.

Today's curriculum seems to be based so much on practicality and very little on imagination. No wonder Generation-Y seems to lack enthusiasm about the world. We're trying to mold them into "practical little cogs" by McDonalds-izing their world.

Re:Instead of Elvish...

[omarin]

...like it or not, we DO need a literate populace to keep our society running, which does call for some useful subjects.

If kids decided the curriculum there'd be no math classes, nor computer programming classes... Shakespeare and Spanish/French would also be out, and instead we'd probably have "Pop Idol 101" and other vapid subjects (as it is we've seen studies stating that basic math skills in the US and UK need improvement pronto). ...

Besides, Gen-Y's lack of enthusiasm about the world is because they're too busy getting fat in front of the Xbox and computer, instead of exploring the real word...

Re:Instead of Elvish...

[autocracy]

So why don't we just make the whole world learn English then?

Re:Instead of Elvish...

[geek4ever]

Oddly, I always thought Esperanto was a spice. Shows what I know. ::smacks self repeatedly::

Re:Instead of Elvish...

[Rob Simpson]

Esperanto? A quick google search finds the top estimates to be anywhere from one million to ten million, and possibly much lower if you require fluency above that of, say, Arnold Rimmer. Feel free to refute this, it was merely a quick search. I suppose there might be a wider distribution of speakers than most other languages with that few speakers, but they'd still probably be better off learning some other language. French is pretty widely distributed, too.

Re:Instead of Elvish...

[omarin]

...dear Rob, obviously your English-language reading skills are not up to par ;-) ... in my entry I said:

"...a MORE useful artificial language..."

Note the word "artificial"... if I meant a "natural language" like French or Spanish, I'd have said it... but in this case we are talking about artificial languages, and not natural ones (as one could argue Spanish over French or German over these two... but that's for a different dicussion/off-topic!)...

Re:Instead of Elvish...

[Rob Simpson]

^_^; Duh. Me need caffeine. Or sleep.

Since I'm totally offtopic anyway... can Esperanto be considered wholly artificial if it bears simililarity to other languages? Why not teach 'em Solresol? ;-)

Re:Instead of Elvish...

[omarin]

...ha! You bring up an excellent point... where does an "artificial" language end and "natural" one begin?

The truthful answer is that it's a muddled area... but one could argue that due to its vocab/grammar/momentum/speakers/existing culture, Esperanto could be considered "natural-ish", whereas Solresol is definitely artificial...

maybe languages constructed "a priori" should be considered "artificial" (a la Solresol) whereas those that are more "a posteriori" (a la Esperanto) should be considered "natural-ish", due to their aforementioned semblance to existing human languages/grammars?

Re:Thankya vury much

[No. 24601]

Actually I thought I read that too... this guy's line was actually funny :) But you're right... It's time to mod down the karma whores.

Probably more useful

[pjt33]

I doubt you'd count Latin as a "real" language, but I learnt more English grammar in my Latin lessons than in my English, French and Spanish lessons put together.

Re:Probably more useful

[LucidityZero]

I doubt you'd count Latin as a "real" language, but I learnt more English grammar in my Latin lessons than in my English, French and Spanish lessons put together.

Apparently even with the help of your Latin classes you did not learn all too much grammar...

:)

Re:Probably more useful

[pjt33]

On the off-chance that you were serious: that's an irregular past participle. See learnt, learned.

Re:Probably more useful

[LucidityZero]

No, not very often serious. :) I will openly admit I did not know learnt was an irregular form of learned, however! Thanks!

Re:Probably more useful

[Trejkaz]

That's harsh. If there was a point in time when any language was used for standard conversation, then it's already more "real" than Klingon, Elvish, Esperanto, or any other cool language. :-/

UT-Austin has this...

[rebelcool]

LIN 312 is a linguistics class on the languages of middle earth.

It's a real class for which you get real credit.

course description

Re:UT-Austin has this...

[Lane.exe]

Heh... and I'm in it this semester.

Ia Laurie Lantar Surinen...

Don't shtemp on my blue shuede shoes

[dankjones]

Or I'll cut ya.

Not gonna happen...

[Cyno01]

Enterprise is almost canceled, star trek as we know it is nearly dead and berman is never gonna do anything cool. It does sound like a cool idea, but i doubt it would ever happen, too out there for any network, a Section 31 based series would be much cooler and much more workable IMHO.

Demonic

[Anonymous Coward]

These fantasy languages are demonic. Better stay away from them.

Uh huh huh!

[lxs]

Thank you very kindly.

What? Oooh Elvish! Then I guess the school-trip to Graceland is out?

What if this ends up mattering?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you an expert of neurolinguistics? What if Sindarin, with its artificial nuances, allows these youngsters to think in new ways? What if its popularity provides a basis for insight into the nature of language? What if this is the stepping stone for the development of strong AI? And most importantly, why does it matter to you what someone else chooses to do with their time? Nobody is forcing you, or them, to learn it. Sod off, biatch.

Tolkien and friends

[Frogg]

A guy I knew about 15 years ago told me that his grandfather was very good friends with JRR Tolkien.

Apparently Tolkien and some other friends used to come to his Granpa's for Sunday lunch and in the afternoon they would then sit, smoke pipes and speak to one another in a "strange language that wasn't spoken any more".

No more details than that I'm afraid.. interesting all the same.

Re:Tolkien and friends

[No. 24601]

Apparently Tolkien and some other friends used to come to his Granpa's for Sunday lunch and in the afternoon they would then sit, smoke pipes and speak to one another in a "strange language that wasn't spoken any more".

I'm there were very special leaves in those pipes.

Re:Tolkien and friends

[andfarm]

Pipeweed, of course!

Re:Tolkien and friends

[cagle_.25]

It was Old Norse, IIRC.

Re:Tolkien and friends

[Slowleggs]

That'd most probably be norse (as T. was in a club that read loud norse poetry), or then again it could perhaps be latin.

I for one..

[Anonymous Coward]

... welcome our new Noldor overlords

Klingon

[mraymer]

. I don't know if the same thing can be said for those who created Klingon...

From kli.org:

The Klingon language is something truly unique. While there have been other artificial languages, and other languages crafted for fictional beings, Klingon is one of the rare times when a trained linguist has been called upon to create a language for aliens. Add to this more than a quarter-century of the Star Trek phenomenon, a mythos that has permeated popular culture and spread around the globe. These factors begin to explain the popularity of the warrior's tongue. Klingon was invented by Marc Okrand, for use in some of the Star Trek movies. He invented not just a few words to make the Klingons sound alien, but a complete language, with its own vocabulary, grammar, and usage.

Pragmatism

[screwballicus]

This is where Tolkien fans are at odds. You've got the Elvish speakers, who throw practicality to the wind by learning an invented language specific to a given mythos. And then you've got the Old English speakers, who pragmatists that they are, learn a more functional Tolkien-oriented language, with better practical applications to every day life. Why waste your life learning a made up language when you could learn one that's been dead for 1,000 years?

The sorry state

[t_allardyce]

Im a geek, but yet i pitty them and just hope they find some girls soon.

I know this school

[GuyFawkes]

Because my other half went to one of them (there is TG primary, TG boys, TG girls etc all adjacent to each other along 100 yards of road) had a daughter at TG primary....

The teachers sussed she was IT/web savvy and asked her about websites, she eventually built them a beautiful website for free, inc free hosting, cut a long story short it got quite acrimonious when the head discovered that one of the features (a forum) meant that parents could actually ask questions on a public forum.... questions such as how come a primary school with a couple of hundred pupils has a million pound plus annual budget? how come their IT is limited to a dozen laptops for the kids, half of which are broken at any one time? how come the deeper you dig the more it appears that the school is nothing more than a business with lots of hands in lots of pockets and the absolute lowest priority is the actual education that the students themselves receive?
How come they employ an IT director that doesn't know what Linux is or how to ALT-TAB between windows in windows or even fix a laptop install?

Hence the "special needs" tagline, it is all about bums on seats, and the more bums you have the greater your budget per annum, and the greater number of those bums that you can attach a label to such as "special needs" (which can range from anything from a physical disability to a rowdy kid that needs no more than a clip around the ear) the greater your budget.

Bottom line on this is wasting time teaching the little bastards Tolkien speak isn't going to offend any minorities, except the trekkies or dr who nerds, and who gives a fuck about them anyway, so it is a "safe" way to deliberately cause "mission creep" and thus prepare the ground for greater annual budgets in the years to come.

It makes me want to fucking puke and then take up arms.

http://www.northfield-westheath.org.uk/community /i ndex.php?option=show&type=2

At the end of the day this is just a classic example of a system that has degraded to the point where simple curative measures no longer suffice, when schools are turning out a MAJORITY of pupils who have severe difficulties with English (never mind a useful foreign language, much less elvish / klingon / aramaic) and find even simple long division extremely taxing then it really is time to throw the baby out with the bath water.

It just so happens that I know this particular school and the goings on there pretty well, but trust me when I tell you that this is FAR FAR FAR from being an isolated incident.

I also note the BBC website readers comments on the story... apart from one person with some class ("Elvish has left the building...") is it only me that finds it strange that all the other people with computers and internet connections and kids of an age to attend these schools have nothing disdainful / critical / ridiculing / negative to say?

I need a green card... any female type slashdotters in the states interested in hooking up with a sexual deviant?

peace.

Re:I know this school

[Anonymous Coward]

fuck off.

Re:I know this school

[GuyFawkes]

Touched a nerve huh?

A "fuck off" from an "anonymous coward" is if anything an endorsement of everything I said.

Re:I know this school

[Cheerio Boy]

All Right - how about from a non-Coward...
Note: I'm not the original AC - I like to use more expansive words.

1) Problematic as the British school system is it's still a school system and it's goal is teaching children. (The goal should be teaching children how to learn but that's another argument.) Anything that helps these children's mind's grow is a good thing.

2) If the above goal can be done with little or no money - such as teaching a man-made language with paperback books as textbooks then so much the better.

3) Tolkien is INTERESTING to a great many many people - some of them children. With an apathy of interest in quite a few things in society today don't you think using something they ARE interested in to teach them is a good thing?

4) While it can not be denied that England should free Ireland I doubt that the teacher in question had any intention of playing a joke of any sort on the students. It's far more likely that the teacher was just looking for a low-cost method to motivate the students.

5) As sad as the state of affairs in question is - it is far better than quite a few US schools.

shouldve learnt it before the movie

[xot]

it would have been more fun if the kids had learn it before the movie, then they could understand all the censored (elvish) horny talk between Aragorn and Arwen.

UT @ Austin

[Wilwayco]

Last Spring semester, the University of Texas at Austin had a Linguistics class that studied Quenya and Sindarin and their respective writing systems. The class was kinda neat... I even translated Metallica's "Into The Fire" into quenya and sindarin (To the best of my ability, of course, and with the help of as many *elvish dictionaries* i can find...)

Linguistics vs. Language

[Orinthe]

I've seen quite a few posts on this topic, so I thought something might need cleared up:

Linguistics != Language

All of these 'prior art'-esque posts about how their school or some other school has some course in sindarin or quenya or klingon or this or that fail to notice that teaching about the linguistics of a language has little to do with teaching the actual language.

Linguistics is basically about the structure of language. You can learn everything there is about the linguistics of a language without being taught how to speak it (in the sense that reading an RFC doesn't generally relate much to actually using whatever protocol or what-have-you that it's written on from a user-standpoint).

Re:Linguistics vs. Language

[Trejkaz]

Esperanto highlights this perfectly. It has so few rules of grammar that understanding the linguistics is extremely easy... and I understand the linguistics, but damned if I can speak it. Write it, maybe, with a lot of help from a dictionary. :-)

Elvish Lives? Nothing new...

[Channard]

After all, Bjork's been speaking it for years. And in other news, Bubba-Ho-Tep bites off Elvis's finger and falls into Mount Doom.

It's time for Latin ...

[i]

With this trend (people starts - *really* - learning fictional languages), it's time to introduce Latin as an (*the*) international language.

Before I thought that the only language viable to form the international choice was English (as it was the way of least restance). But it seems that fictions and games could drive people to unsual learning efforts.

Then we have also Esperanto, but I don't like it much although it's both simple in structure and easy to pronounce. What I don't like with it is that it's a bit "ugly". Latin may not be exactly beautiful, but it have some sort of "dignity" and have inspiring historical links. And litterature.

Re:It's time for Latin ...

[Anonymous Coward]

If a language is created, by a linguist, based on real languages.. is it really fictional? i mean what is language.. someone created it.. if we started using elvish it would evolve into a full language.. so whats the problem

Where Elvish really originates from

[Dodger73]

Memphish, of course!

Re:Thankya vury much

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention tacking it onto something unrelated that is actually funny.

hm

[Vlion]

Quite frankly I think its cool.
Latin is something only lawyers need to know: Esparanto is a joke- I've never even seen a Esperanto publication- online or offline.
Elvish is a basically working language, with writing system.
Should someone actually know it, they will be quite well prepared to learn another langauge.
Learning a new langauge involves decoupling ones awareness from their mother tongue(s), and forcing you to be able to "preverbalize" thoughts so as to use the feature of the other language. Trust me- it bites me in my german class about once every few weeks. XD

Expanding their horizons

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they can get Rob Enderle to teach a troll class!

He is dead!

[fredu]

Haven't you heared? ELVIS(h) is dead! He's not coming back, live with it!

Fundamental theories on improving education.

[MurrayTodd]

Gah!

If you dismiss and demean kids, they will live up (down) to your expectations. If kids believed they were being taken seriously, if they were approached intelligently and respectfully about their own curriculum, I'm willing to believe that they would prove you wrong about that. They would listen to your suggestions, dismiss some of them (adults HATE that), and then start to take their own education seriously. My teaching experience has suggested this is the case, but we're so myopic about our approach to education that we're not even going to give me the opportunity to be right or wrong.

Any maybe Gen-Ys' lack of enthusiasm (getting fat in front of X-box as you claim) is evidence that they've lost interest in their own education and in the outside world. What you describe as a cause I claim is instead a symptom.

Now I wouldn't offer Elvish at the expense of math (I've taught math myself) but if it showed signs of being an "in" that reached some kids and got them involved, I'd be all for letting them study Elvish instead of French, because it could lead to them developing a strong interest in Linguistics or Literature.

Re:Fundamental theories on improving education.

[omarin]

I'm sorry you have a chip on your shoulder, as it does not help in a discussion and you end up putting words in my mouth...

I am not dismissing and demeaning kids, but I think you're throwing the baby out with the bath water... kids (being kids/young/having not yet lived life) won't have a clue as to what essential skills are needed in the "real world" (not the TV show ;-) ... I think it's great to give kids classes that truly catch their imagination, BUT we cannot throw out the basics; I think instead we should keep math/science/languages etc, and make them interesting (like that Bill Nye the science guy, he made science very interesting to me...)

Instead of advocating having kids draw up the curriculum as you suggest, I think kids should give feedback on it that will be acted upon (such as: "you need to change our math class, most kids in it find it taught in a very boring way..." or "Why don't you teach us to talk to the local Latino kids? All this rote memorizztion is putting us off Spanish?") ...

My personal expirence

[Anonymous Coward]

In middleschool I hit Tolkien with a passion. Read those books more times than I can remember in 2 years. Started trying to translate some of the scripts included in the illustrations (maps, door to Moria, stuff like that). Now, I've just finished my BA in Classics and can read both Latin and Ancient Greek. This is the direct result of my interest in Tolkien's languages as a child. But I suppose my unemployment might also be considered such a result...

Did anyone else accidentally read Elvish as Elvis?

[Thai-Pan]

I know I did. When I told my brother that they were teaching how to talk like Elvis in a university, I was greeted with only slightly more laughter than when I corrected myself.

come ON you people

[scrytch]

I clicked on the link expecting commentary threads in elvish. Not a one. What kind of geeks are you?

I speak Elvis

[VanillaCoke420]

Thank you... thank you very much.

Just for a moment...

[juaja]

I thought they were teaching the king's language (Elvis, of course), sometimes is hard to understand people down in Memphis.

Star Trek VI

[Anonymous Coward]

It's from The Undiscovered Country, you dolt!

Re:Star Trek VI

[MindNumbingOblivion]

Shit...you're right...

(please mod original -1, Misidentifying well known Star Trek quotes)

This could be Klingon...

[Entropius]

...but it looks like rot-13 text to me!

Re:This could be Klingon...

[Anonymous Coward]

rot-13 and klingon is the same, duh!

Re:This could be Klingon...

[SeanAhern]

That's cause it is rot-13 text. Here, converted:

The Kronos Chronicle is a project of the Klingon Language Institute, intended for Klingon speakers. Here you can read interesting opinons and articles, but only if you can understand Klingon. Each month we will have a new issue for you to read and practice your skill.

LOTR with Klingon subtitles?

[legomad]

yay? or not?

Elvish/Klingon dictionary

[Michael Woodhams]

Such an effort would quickly collapse with vocabulary problems.

What is Elvish for phasor, or blast-furnace?

Do the Klingons bother having a word for "tree"?

Re:Elvish/Klingon dictionary

[andfarm]

Do the Klingons bother having a word for "tree"?

Sure -- it translates loosely to "thing that gets in the way of a landing". Or "fun to burn".

odd reversal; "the Welsh knot"

[bsDaemon]

I'm sure I am going to get modded down for this, but even until fairly recent (19th century) times, students in Wales were forbidden from speaking in Welsh. If they spoke, they had to wear a "Welsh knot" which served to single them out, like a dunce cap.
Elvish is based on Welsh. Therefor, I find it slightly ironic and a little offensive that after attempting to stomp out a language and culture to subjugate a people, th English would now teach a bastardization of Welsh as some sort of joke.
disclaimer: I am not Welsh, but Irish-American. I am, however, extremely sensitive to exploitation and abuse of Celtic peoples and cultures. I do have many Welsh and Welsh-American friends and acquantances.
Elvish, and Welsh are very beautiful languages though. I just wish they would teach the /real/ language and culture instead of a synthetic creation.

Just for a change ...

[Tim Ward]

... one can say: "Only in England"

Well, some people speak Latin...

[netcrusher88]

I'm there. I would love to be able to speak in a language that maybe a couple of hundred people on earth know fluently. It's like when foreign exchange students speak their language to others from their country in front of their classmates. It's cool. Nobody knows what you're saying...

More than you ever wanted to know...

[Jugalator]

about Sindarin :-)

It's these huge text masses about weird languages that can make one wonder about the authors mental state!

The 20/20 line is easiest to pronounce

[tepples]

If you have the vision of an average human (20/20), you can pronounce "DEFPOTEC" coming from almost any Latin-alphabet background. Below that line, would most of the Snellen eye chart's consonant clusters be valid even in cluster-loving Slavic languages such as Polish?

Re:The 20/20 line is easiest to pronounce

[Anonymous Coward]

Memorizing that chart will work fine for you until they change it, like they did to Cotton Hill.

Pointed vs. Beleriandic modes

[tepples]

True, some tengwar modes are consonantal like a Semitic (Hebrew, Arabic) or Indic (Devanagari, Bengali) script, with points called tehtar to indicate vowels. However, modes patterned after the mode of Beleriand use letters as vowels, just as any other Hellenic-derived script (e.g. Greek, Latin, Cyrillic) does.

or not so oddly enough...

[cagle_.25]

Languages such as Hebrew and Arabic also make use of vowel points. The markings are different from Elvish, but the basic idea is not original to Tolkien.

Is Klingon based on real linguistics? Yes.

[perfessor multigeek]

I don't know if the [real linguistics behind the design] can be said for those who created Klingon...
Just ask the folks at the Klingon Language Institute. Klingon as we know it was created initially (pretty much, I'm giving the short form here) by Marc Okrand, a real linguistics professor. Since then, and especially in the past ten years or so, Klingon has been taken up as a project by quite a few people with formal linguistics training as well as many enthusiaists. Enough to make possible an annual convention which at least takes a viable shot at being Klingon-only.
People write letters in Klingon, have translated Shakespeare into Klingon, IM in Klingon, and have registered a number of domains based on Klingon words.

Personally, as I have said elsewhere, it has been my experience that most of these people have a terrrrrible signal to noise ratio in terms of actually living by a Klingon philosophy, while the folks who dabble in Elvish openly admit that it's just a game. But as for the issue of the Klingon language's "legitimacy", well even aside from the query by Oregon's mental health department to have a Klingon translator available in case they ever need one, yes and getting more real by the day.

By the way, folks, let's keep in mind that modern Hebrew is also in large part a synthetic language. Back when the zionists decided to start using Hebrew as their language for daily life, it had nowhere near the vocabulary or range needed to serve that role. Ask Chachem or Interrobang or any of the other folks here on /. who have looked at the problem. There is nothing shameful about a language being synthetic. Every language started that way at some point. Maybe we can build some now that make a bit more sense.

As for the issue of studying, creating, or enhancing such languages being "wasteful", as far as I'm concerned, we are well ahead every time we get options that are NOBODY'S heritage.
Each step on that path is one away from the kind of ethnic identity pathologies that have made Bosnia, Rwanda, and so many other arbitrary hatreds viable.

Rustin

I want my OS X in Elvish, Klingon and Esperanto

[Kunt]

Ya know, like, dude, go to the Apple menu > System settings > International, log out, log back in, and hey presto, Elvish lives!

Klingon Bible

[Prof. Pi]

About 10 years ago, I read an article about some theology student who was working on a Klingon translation of the Bible! He was doing it like a real biblical scholar (working from what are assumed to be original sources, rather than translations). He conceded it was mostly just for fun, but held out hope that some ST fan who would never read a regular Bible might read it.

The article discussed the challenges of translating biblical concepts into a language with something like 2,000 words. There apparently was a way one could petition the "official" keepers of the Klingon language to "discover" a new word, but that was only to be used as a last resort. Instead, he made due with what he had. For instance, Klingon had no word for god but he used something that translated roughly as "Highest Lord."

Kind of like TECO

[Prof. Pi]

I learned TECO around the time the Solidarity movement was big in the news. It seemed that every Polish name I saw in the newspapers looked like one of my TECO macros!

Looks like this

[devphil]

The proposal is here, on the ISO site. Why yes, I did have this bookmarked, why d'ya ask?

Re:Looks like this

[Anonymous Coward]

Note that according to the Unicode roadmap, tengwar and cirth are tentatively allocated in the range 0x13000-0x130ff, rather than 0x1cc00-0x1ccff as in the proposal.

No, actually, he did.

[devphil]

There are a couple occurrances of love, but he didn't write them in any of the Elvish tongues. The Elves certainly understood the concept, but not everything Tolkien wrote had to first be in Quenya or Sindarin before getting translated to English. Some of it was just, ya know, written in English.

What was more fun

[devphil]

was hearing quotes directly from the book... and watching some truly mangled translations appear in the subtitles.

Maybe...

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean, it'sh poshible they found Elvish Preshley.

A good mystery.

[Anonymous Coward]

Mrs Thorp, who studied ancient Egyptian at university, said: "Tolkien never left a word meaning 'to love'.

>Well perhaps a long-lived race as the elves did not have the concept of love or understood love in a far more abstract fashion than humans, dwarves or orcs.

Or perhaps he didn't want to fall into the english trap of expressing such a deep emotion with a single word. For such a long lived race, it would make more sense to have moved beyond a single word for "love" and to describe it more accurately in different words.
Romantic love: "I'll always love you."
Parental love: "I love you, my son."
Innocent/first love: "I think I love him."
Brotherhood/Comaraderie: "I love you man!"
Aged/Matured love: "I love my dear wife."
Hero or Admiration love: "I've always loved your work!" ...etc

While there are, of course, many variations on the idea of love, none of them transpose into the phrase "I love you" with the same implied depth. At least, that's why I would have left out a literal word for "love". ymmv

Klingon to Elvish?

[KC7GR]

Hmmmm... We'll need a name for that. 'Elvon?' 'Klingish?' 'Hairballese?' You be the judge. ;-)

elvish as in presley?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I've heard it all... a Klingon Elvish Presley.

Safety warning about Elvis

[mrmeval]

It should be safe to translate Klingon into
Elvish and produce a dictionary. But do not
mistake Elvish for Elvis these are totally
different languages and translating
Elvis into Klingon can be quite fatal.

Some of the movements required by Elvis
are known to splinter bone in the translator
and in people within a 1 block radius when
translated into Klingon.

Heresy!

[Merusdraconis]

I don't have my LotR handy, otherwise I'd go re-read the ford scene. I was sure that Frodo was the only one on the horse, in which case adding someone there to keep Frodo safe would have been the smart thing to do. But I'm probably wrong, so I won't push it.

What I do take issue with, of course, is the major changes made to Frodo's path at the end of the second movie being considered gratuitous. Although it's a major deviation from the books, I can see why Jackson did it - there's not much chance to go to Osgiliath and see the war if you're following main characters; it makes little sense for men, or in fact anyone, to go, 'oh, you have something our race has been after for centuries, Mordor is that way, have some rations, see you later'; and I suspect that Frodo's journey ended at the point it did (before Mordor, rather than after Shelob) because the Scouring was cut (a shame) and the third movie would have been too light otherwise. But the ending wouldn't have been that great, so now Faramir is a good commander and captures a vital weapon in the war.

Of course, the problem Jackson faced was that he had to adapt an influential and much-loved book, but also a somtimes clumsily-written one and one that a good portion of the population loses interest in half-way through into three movies that do justice to the grand scope of the books, engage and excite audiences (not just Tolkein-lovers) and make enough money to break even. Frankly, he did a remarkable job, and it could have been worse. Early drafts were written entirely in modern English, and gradually incorporated more and more of Tolkein's dialogue, or a reeasonable facsimile, as time went on. They could have not gotten Alan Lee on board. It could have been two movies, and Jackson would have been forced to cut even more than he did.

Not to mention that a movie is a collaborative effort - this means that studios reserve the right to fiddle. They would have cut Tom Bombadil almost immediately. You know it, I know it. Enough of Helm's Deep was unbeleivable that audiences would have had their suspensions of disbelief stretched that humans with no support from their so-called friends and only one competant archer won against a horde of orcs.

I got the impression that Saruman was merely breeding the Uruk-Hai in the movie, not creating them. But that's me.

I agree with the original post. The books and the movies are two different things, and if you try and compare one against the other you'll have problems. However, they are both excellent and they're both triumphs of storytelling. Only the details are different.

Re:Heresy!

[gujo-odori]

You are right about Frodo at the ford; Glorfindel put him on the horse and ordered the horse to carry him across, as Frodo's will was frozen by the Nazgul when they appeared. Glorfindel remained behind to stand against the Nazgul. I stand corrected.

WRT Osgiliath, I stand by my claim of gratuitous change. There is no first-hand account of the fighting at Osgiliath in the books, only reports of how it has gone. Nothing of significance to the story happened there. If he was going to raise the skirmishes of Osgiliath to such importance, why not also send Frodo on a jaunt to Cair Andros to witness the minor fighting there, too? The three battles of real importance are the breaking of Isengard by the ents (which is not a battle per se; Saruman's entire army had marched on Rohan), Helm's Deep, and Minas Tirith, which is why protagonists in the story are present at all three. Other battles were minor occurrences that did not influence the course of the War of the Ring.

I do not begrudge Jackson his cuts. Making a movie from a book always requires it. What I begrudge him, rather, are his additions. As you say, he did an overall good job of it. That is precisely why the things he did wrong are so bothersome. He changed the story, and in doing so reduced substantially the integrity and character of Faramir. Faramir acted as Galadriel acted, passing the temptation of the ring. Jackson, however, turned him into a person who would hijack the ring and Frodo's mission, as Boromir and Denethor would have done.

I, too, would have cut Bombadil if push came to shove. While I would have liked to see that entire section in the movie, as I said, I do not begrudge Jackson his cuts, but his additions.

No where in the book does it state or imply that Legolas is the only archer at Helm's Deep, nor does it state or imply that he is the only competent one. Indeed, it is preposterous to think that the Rohirrim would not have used the bow as both a weapon of hunting and a weapon of war. The bow, in our history, filled the place that the firearm does today. It's use was ubiquitous. It is unimaginable that the Rohirrim would not have used it as well. If the battle of Helm's Deep had not included elvish archers, and had correctly shown Erkenbrand's regrouped army arriving at dawn with Gandalf, it would have been just as plausible. The defenders of Helm's Deep were not outnumbered as badly as it was made to appear in the movie. Still, things were not going well. They were saved by the combination of the arrival of Erkenbrand and Gandalf, together with the arrival of the huorns, to which the fleeing orcs of Saruman's army fell prey.

I'm not saying the movies were not a triumph of storytelling, but rather why, in the midst of something so overall well done, did Jackson have to gratuitously fiddle? The things he changed would have stood on their own if he had not.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

Oh, yeah, I almost forgot. Liv Tyler?? Puh-lease! :-p They could have done far better on that. Arwen is regal and of stunning beauty, something that Liv Tyler is, well, not.

and I thought...

[maxpublic]

...American schools were teaching crap. Looks like there's at least one country in the world where the school system sucks even more than our own.

Max

clarification

[_defiant_]

Languages such as Hebrew and Arabic also make use of vowel points. The markings are different from Elvish, but the basic idea is not original to Tolkien.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. "Oddly enough" was in reference to his joke that welsh has no vowels. I didn't mean to imply that Tolkien was original with his ideas for vowel markings.

Birmingham

[Loosewire]

Damn , ill have to leave here now this has happend.

Love.

[Trejkaz]

That would be an interesting job, because the Klingon language has no word for "love." You'd want to stick to the more evil bits of the book, for sure.

That's nothing...

[HogynCymraeg]

We've got Welsh courses here for Elves.It's very popular too! :)

ELVISH is not a Word

[io.sys]

ELVEN, ELVEN!! Come on people get it right. For crying out loud Tolkien even had a paragraph in his book about the fact that elvish is not a word. It's ELVEN!! Geesh, pay the man a little respect here.