Slashdot Mirror
Technology Spontaneously Combusts In Sicily
Zacronos writes "According to MSNBC, ever since mid-January, various electronic devices have been spontaneously combusting in the now evacuated town of Canneto di Caronia, Sicily; at this point, the fires are almost daily. The town has been disconnected from the larger electrical grid and was hooked to a generator, but that, too, caught fire. Even unplugged items have succumbed. Nothing seems to have burst into flame except where there is someone present to witness it, but the police no longer suspect a prankster -- after witnessing wires catch fire without cause. Scientists have yet to explain the phenomenon (although unproven theories abound), leading many people to look to supernatural causes."
I'm thinking, can any kind of EMP cause this?
Many many people will soon flock to Sicily to see the virgin Mary.
Sadly, in the news, a number of faithful Catholics have suddenly burst into flames today.
UID 1000000 is just around the corner.
I knew Windows Longhorne wasn't ready to be released
It looks to me like the whole thing was just invented. I'll bet if I visited, I could find the problem in two minutes... tops.
Can any Sicilian slashdotter confirm this seemingly unlikely story?
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
Obviously, if they were running Linux this wouldn't be happening now would it?
"Shredded cabbage and mayo go good together." Cole's Law
From the article: "We're working in the dark. We don't have a single lead so far," said Pedro Spinnato, mayor of the trio of Caronia towns.
"Jesus!"
I feel sorry for any IT professionals walking around with a pager, NEXtel, and a PDA in their pockets/belts. Ouch!
Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, START
In unrelated news, media reports that many websites carrying "news for nerds, stuff that matters" spontaneously combust, especially when lots of people are witnessing it. Apparently, a Sicilian hosting company has been hit particularly hard.
Money for nothing, pix for free
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Looks like siciliy finally got the boot!
*badum ching!*
It was posted today! The fact that this news piece appears backdated in other websites proves there is something supernatural involved!!
*Jumps into Holy Water pool*
---- Take the Space Quiz!
...Colored markings on the street indicate the presence of volcano experts...
Sweet jumpin' Jesus! The volcano 'experts' must have burned up and left little *poof* marks where they stood.
Scientists have yet to explain the phenomenon ... leading many people to look to supernatural causes
It really makes me sad when, if people don't understand something they assume it's magic. Why is it that so many people refuse to take 'we don't know yet' as an acceptable answer?
Science: 0
Magic: 1
:/
-Colin
You only have to look at all the loony beliefs in the world to know that people will leap to the most ridiculous conclusions at the drop of a hat.
"We can identify that flying object so therefore it must be an advanced alien scout ship!" etc.
It's sad really. No doubt when the mundane reason for this story becomes clear (e.g. hoax, sensational reporting or whatever), there will be another bunch of loons accusing the Italian government of a 'coverup'.
No, it is not an April Fools joke. For details, see http://www.ebicom.net/~rsf1/canneto.htm that has been covering events for 5 weeks already.
Do there happen to be any radar installations nearby?
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
Who is to say that they aren't?
:)
I mean, aliens don't have to be our size, they could be tiny little critters that can't be seen with the naked eye.
This could just be a series of tiny little BBQ's gone wrong?
If I was an alien, Sicily would seem like a nice place to go
This is the sig that says NI (again)
if the RIAA and Microsoft get all of their DRM technology in order.
Wow, the new Janet Jackson single... gimmee gimmee gimmee playing WOOOOOOOOOF! FLAMES!
who you gonna call? GHOSTBUSTERS! heh, i had to do it.
I find this a good example of those phenomena that science can't yet explain. I'm often amused by science types that say something is impossible because it doesn't fit any current theory.
Seems to me any true scientist should always be watching for observations that don't fit the known theory, as they are indicators of a nedd for further refinement.
Sadly, scientists, like most people, are more interested in being right, and tend to look for confirming evidence, sometimes to the detriment of their conclusions.
Before you flame me as an anti-science zealot, let me confess that I'm a science guy as much as your average geek, and I think science is responsible for most of the good changes of the last few centuries. I just think that when we hold too tight to our theories, we leave the realm of skeptical science and enter the world of blind faith.
BTW, I have no plausible explanation for the spontaneous fires. But I am confident that someone will come up wih one that doesn't invole a tinfoil hat.
Here is an interesting and recent article that has some further details on the subject.
Phoenix
And strangely fitting:
" "....My God! Is that your kitchen on fire?"
"Err, no. It's Aurora Borealus."
"An Aurora Borealus?"
"Yes."
"At this time of the day, at this time of year, in this part of the country, localized entirely in your kitchen?!"
".....Yes."
"....Can I see it?"
".....No."
Or sometimes things just.... catch fire..... we wouldn't want that now would we?
"Waste not one watt!" - CZ
"Someone wrote to us saying the solution was to sacrifice a black goat and collect its blood. At some point, that's going to start looking like a good idea."
Wohoo! They took my advice!
Believe or not, similar incidents have occurred before.
o 1945 - A village a short distance from Almera in Spain (New York Time 5th July 1945).
o 1983 - A small coal town in West Virginia, Wharncliffe (Housten Post 16th June 1983 and Columbus Dispatch 24th July 1983)
o 1990 - San Gottardo in the Berici Hills of Italy
(UK Sunday Express 11th March 1990 and The Guardian 22nd March 1990)
I've given you references so you can check them out for yourself.
(posted anonymously to avoid Slashdotters you refuse to think about things which don't fit inside their predefined universe).
This is possibly the funniest exchange ever between Principal Skinner and Superintendant Chalmers.
re-Verse, you steam a fine ham.
2. America is one of the few nations in the world where the power going out or setting firest makes the news, in most of the world it happens daily.
3. About a decade ago Italy ruled their version of the FCC incompetent and disbanded them. Though there are EU rules to deal with, it is a wild west of wireless where you can send photon-torpedo strength EMI around with no-one to slap you until the mobs find you.
It's the result of scientists ignoring Zero Point Energy for so long. Now it is rearing it's ugly head.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
Or some evil, sinister military/CIA project. Do a quick Google seach on HAARP and/or weather control and you'll see.
The owls are not what they seem
Witness the vengance of the Amish for their many years of ridicule at our hands!
My electronics burning up may as well be the apocalypse...
But I spent all my mod points. Of course, it could easily have a natural cause instead of a military one - stranger things have happened, and we have such a complex system here that even staggeringly high amounts of sporadic interference can almost disappear in the noise.
You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
Don't laugh. I've seen it done.
A company (I don't remember what) was trying to sell some of a wetting agent to a fire department I was part of. They demonstrated that it got soot stains out of concrete, got oil off your hands, etc.
They mixed the stuff about at about a 1:5 ration with gasoline, and used a bucket to splash the resulting mixture onto a pile of burning tires. It darned near put it out. It did reduce the temperature of the fire by 2500 degrees Farenhuit.
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
They don't. They usually assume it's god. Especially in Italy, I guarantee you the first "expert" called in was the local priest, not the local college professor. I guarantee you people have spent more time praying to god than going about finding a scientific explanation or identifying what's unique. Furthermore, the assumption of "no foul play because it happened right in front of us" is absurd- there are numerous chemicals, for example, that can be applied wet, and when they dry and crystalize, become super-sensitive to contact. Of course, they're a bitch to handle, so it's a little far-fetched...
Religion has always given the weak-minded something to pacify their consciences. Why do you think some of the most religious people are often absolute morons, and many intelligent, well-educated people often aren't highly religious? Idiots need an explanation for everything, intelligent people seek answers and do not believe in what they cannot prove to themselves.
Religion:
I think religion is probably the greatest scam ever invented.
Please help metamoderate.
Anyone else find it suspicious that Slashdot picks this up from MSNBC on the 8th of April, who ran this from Reuters on Monday the 5th. Reuters Italy then must have had it sometime around Friday the 2nd, which would put the first printing of the story on... Which day is that again?
The ______ Agenda
I'm not Sicilian, but I live in ITaly nonetheless. The media covered this issue for quite some time, although at the end, they seemed to blame natural electrical discharges given the zone is a very active sismic area in Sicily, but also it could have been due to the high-powere train lines which run only a few meters from the houses affected by the problems. There is also who blames the widespread illegal electrical connections setup by the local crooks...
// mirr0red
Best wishes
Paul
My web domain.
Dear Zeus, I apologize for sleeping with one of your many women. I'd appreciate it if you would stop with the lightning bolts, and just get on with turning me into some sort of half-turtle, half-game show host monstrosity to teach me the error of my ways. Cheers.
I realize that many wish to pump MS sites and their content partners, but could the editors filter out these and stick with less dangerous secondary sources?
Ignore it and it will go away. Reuters, AP , UPI, BBC, etc. usually provide the content reported anyway. Other sources, e.g. The Reg., often do their own reporting as well.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
A high-power military radar installation does put out enough power to kill an unfortunate bird (or incompetent engineer) at short distance, but still wouldn't do much more than disrupt electronic equipment at greater distances.
However, it is not unthinkable that a relatively small disruption in an eletronic device can lead to a bigger problem later on - a disrupted control circuit causing an overload that leads to a fire is well possible. This scenario is not very feasible after main power is cut though.
There is little need to invoke God or strange physics. A more likely explanation is at hand.
The common thread to all of these are power sources, wires and people. The missing, unmentioned ingredient is the pocket knife or screwdriver concealed in the hand of the disturbed fellow who is causing the shorts.
John Vreeland
"Will future ages believe that such stupid bigotry ever existed!" -- Ivanhoe
This has been reported on since February at which time, Father Gabriel Amorth, the Vatican's chief expert on exorcism said demonic forces cannot be ruled out. Now, of course, he has a vested interest in maintaining job security, so his opinion needs to be taken with a half-a-grain of salt.
This is not the way to build a lasting empire.
Supernatural does not mean "things we don't yet understand", there is a term for those, and it is "things we don't yet understand". Any scientist worth anything will readily admit there is plenty of things we don't understand.
To describe something as supernatural instantly carries very strong connotations of magic, miracle, or some paranormal force that is not just unknown science, but something other than it and beyond it
As for quacks, they are just that. By sheer chance a few will be end up being partially right about something becuase so many people have so many crazy ideas. Thing is, you can't tell the ones who are right by chance from the rest without working through it. It is as important to know why you are right as being right, those scientists "scaling the rocky face" are doing the important work.
First of all, this is pretty old news in Italy.
Here is CICAP entry on this phenomenon (in Italian sorry).
CICAP is a group of scientists who routinely investigate (and debunk) any so-called supernatural phenomenon in Italy (they cover anything: ESP, religious miracles, even omeopathy). Sort of a James Randi fan club.
I suppose most of Slashdot's reader cannot read Italian: the gist of it is that they suspect a prank. According to similar phenomena they investigated in the past, the first accidents are caused by natural causes (short-circuits, overload).
But then people start talking, and making hypotesis, and someone starts causing this as a prank or a way to get attention, media coverage etc. Then CICAP arrives, and start looking aroud, and everything goes back to normal.
CICAP sums this as follows: 100% of phenomena happen when controls are at 0% 0% of phenomena happen when controls are at 100%
The fires have even consumed unplugged lamps and an entire apartment. Black scorch marks still scar the apartment walls.
Did this community do a lot of eBay shopping?
To describe something as supernatural instantly carries very strong connotations of magic, miracle, or some paranormal force that is not just unknown science, but something other than it and beyond it
Ancient peoples called things they didn't understand, "magic." They did not say this of things they did understand. They were not lunatics calling the crops they raised, "magic." To do so would have made them nuts to their ancient brethren.
those scientists "scaling the rocky face" are doing the important work.
Of course they are doing important work. And so is the child psychologist and the policeman and every other profession not a scientist, but, of course, you didn't say a policeman isn't doing important work, yet, see, look how these things go.
We love to dis those who may be religious -- who think there's more to life than what appears to be or than what is contained in a science book, yet everyone here loves the xfiles....
"All great things are simple & expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." --Churchill
Incorrect. Small enough wires/paths on chips will actually burst into flames if enough current passes through them such as during an EMP. Remember, the passage of current causes heat to be built up from resistance, and when the traces are as thin as they are on a lot of electronics, they can easily pass the explosive heat point of that metal. Example: put some metal in a microwave.
"Stumble before you crawl"
Somehow it doesn't suprise me that God is a pedant.
They need to call Scooby-Doo and the gang.
I can see it now...
Old man Aldo was setting the fires whilst dressed in a demon costume.
On the lighter side, marshmallow sales in the small village went up.
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
One of the alarming things about slashdot is the way it really brings out the bigots in the community.
Story about a sicilian village? Sure, they must be a bunch of superstitious peasants with a mental age of 11. Story about women? Cue for side-splitting 'jokes' about how dumb they are with computers and or crude sexual innuendo. (and then the authors wonder why they can't get a girlfriend). Story about India? Racial stereotypes alive and well.
I'm not worried so much about the existence of these posts. The attraction of
The author of this post asserts his moral rights.
No, you mean Carl Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World." "The Daemon-Haunted World" is Sagan's book about how your computer may be infested with programs that don't run until they're invoked by another application.
My guess is that he thought his "advisors" were full of bull, and were trying to manipulate him. So he said, "If you guys are so in tune with the supernatural, you should be able to tell me my dream." (Sort of like, "Why doesn't the Psychic Hotline lady call me?")
His advisors, understandably, said, "You're on crack -- no king in history has asked something like that", to which he replied, "I'll show you who's on crack..."
TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.
Advertising with the name "firewire," this seems to give a whole new meaning to that.
Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
They invent everything. It's just another protection scheme.
There is a reason my grandparents left Sicily, it was a corrupt shithole.
That being said I'm proud to be Italian (and English).
A simple search on everyone's favorite search engine would have lead them to this CNN article dated April First. Of course, one need merely think about it really really hard to realize that spontaneous combustion and April Fools go together like baseball and apple pie. That would be cricket and guiness for our UK friends.
Especially when the story mentions the head exorcist of the Catholic Church definitively calling this the work of the devil, when the local priest decided to sit this one out and let science have a go at it first. These people obviously aren't *that* removed from the outside world, even if they are filthy, filthy Italians.
--- What
You know, if I lived in some rural village and my government was willing to pay my rent to live in a 3-star hotel on a hillside, I think my appliances just might magically catch fire also.
Here am I sitting in a tin can, far above the world. Planet earth is blue & there's nothing I can do.
So what is Weak Minded? It's this:
1. The inability to accept that other people have valid motivations, ideals or valuable knowledge that that are different from your own.
2. The inability to differentiate between what one person or one group do in the name of a cause, and the core purpose of that cause.
There are a lot of people who wrap themselves in religion who are weak minded. There are a lot more that are not. There are a lot of people who wrap themselves in science who are weak minded. There are a lot more who are not. There are a lot of people who live in many different countries, societies, cultures who are weak minded. There are a lot more who are not. And out of all of these, many among the weak minded also tend to be the most vocal, so that is a lot of what you hear from them.
Different people accept religion for different reasons. And different people abuse the name of religion for different reasons. David Koresh claimed to be Jesus. Few Christians believe or supported him. Osama claims to work in the name of Islam. Few Muslims believe or support him. Some Catholic priests have sexually assaulted children. Few Catholics support them. There have certainly been bad things done in the name of religion, but that does not mean the religion was the cause. Most often the cause was dangerious people doing bad things, and claiming religion as their cover.
As for why people believe what religion teaches them rather than "modern science". That is probably because modern science is not taught as widely as you would like. It takes money, knowledge, political support, lots of people power, and strong social support to spread new knowledge. Churches have been around for centuries. They already have the structures in place to teach their docterine. Church schools exist in almost every town and country around the world teaching religion. Modern educational institutes in remote places are few and far between. This is not the fault of the people who live there. They learn what is available to them. And for many centuries, that was from the local church.
Knowledge is relative. With all your great scientific knowledge, If you were dropped naked into the middle of the Amazon rain forest, you'd probably die of poison or starvation inside a week. All the while those stupid savages who worship their sun gods have been surviving there for generations just fine.
We all learn and accept what our society and parents teach us. If your parents and society teach you science, great for you. If you are too ignorant or weak minded to accept that other people have different educational backgrounds, different social and physical needs, or different ideas about the unknown, AND THAT THESE DIFFERENCES ARE NOT EVIL, STUPID OR WRONG, then that's too bad for you.
There is nothing so silly as other peoples traditions, and nothing so sacred as our own.
Richard: We've been coming here for years -- suddenly, everybody has an exploding laptop... what gives?
Ricardo: It's a hot spot.
Richard: A hot spot?
Ricardo: A hot spot, broadband, wireless, a tipping point. One hot spot... a blip. Ten... a novelty. Then shit starts exploding... billions of dollars fly through the air and spontaneously combusting.
Richard: Billions?
Ricardo: Billions. (faces Richard) Watch your head.
Sean: (asking Richard) How's our securAAAAAAARGH MY CELL PHONE JUST EXPLODED IN MY FRONT POCKET!!!!!!
Title: IBM SECURITY FOR THE ON DEMAND, SPONTANEOUSLY-COMBUSTING WORLD
For some reason, I would think God's wrath is much more impressive than lighting up a few telephone wires in a city who's population is 39.
Kent Simon Multitheft Auto
> "I've seen things like this before," he told the
>daily Il Messaggero. "Demons occupy a house and
>appear in electrical goods."
I have seen this too. It is usually manifested in the form of a great deal of pr0n downloaded onto my harddisk. I have no idea how it gets there.
boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
A simple search on everyone's favorite search engine would have lead them to this CNN article dated April First. Of course, one need merely think about it really really hard to realize that spontaneous combustion and April Fools go together like baseball and apple pie. That would be cricket and guiness for our UK friends.
'I've seen things like this before. Demons occupy a house and appear in electrical goods.'- -- Gabriele Amorth Exorcist
Generally you don't see that kind of behavior in a major appliance. - "Ghostbusters"
"Capital punishment makes the state into a murderer. Imprisonment makes the state into a gay dungeon-master"
you want video?! here's your stinkin video. http://elwood.longlines.com/~soucada/fireball/comp aqmod.mpg
m ation1.avi
http://elwood.longlines.com/~soucada/fireball/Ani
A Mysterious Unbalanced power factor?
Most likely one of the following:
1.) Old fabric-insulated wire systems and new power hungry appliances
2.) Old aluminium based wire (the Ausies had fun with that technology)
3.) Temperature coefficients of conductor increased resistance under load causing thermo run-away by overloading power systems.
4.) Step-down transformer has become unbalanced
5.) Transient suppression condensers are not inline between the town's sub-stations
6.) Magic-8-Ball says the "air conditioners" did it, surly a power plot.
Natural atmospheric conditions in the sky can cause lightning, could an unusual atmospheric charge cause something tesla-like naturally at ground level?
How about underground, if there were enough minerals capable of transporting electrical impulses?
If you have ever owned an old Fiat, the concept of Italian electronics spontaneously combusting is not that far fetched. ;)
(Sort of like, "Why doesn't the Psychic Hotline lady call me?")
That's how it works in Soviet Russia...
If you read This reference under "Combustibility", it says:
Now when you consider that dunking a wire and plastic in liquid oxygen is also likely to cause lots of heat-stress fractures in both the now-brittle plastic and the metal...Whoosh!
- "History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men" -- Blue Oyster Cult, 'Godzilla'
...don't pay your SCO license.
Table-ized A.I.
I don't know if anyone posted this but could there be a relationship to Piezo Eletrical activity.
I wonder if they have done any kind of surveying or tests for minerals (assaying). Is there any sign of tectonic movement? I have no idea what I am talking about.
Sorry he's been replaced by Faux Smoulder.
It is interesting how a prank can take on a life of its own. When I worked for a summer camp for kids, I made up a story about a boy getting killed at camp and him returning to haunt it. I presented it as fact. (I'm a bastard, I know.)
Over the following few days I elaborated on the story as it took on a life of its own. Soon frightened teens came to me because a vending machine stalked then attacked them. Even adults were decieved. A group of three men insisted that one night the dead boy tried to climb into their canoe and tipped it over. Probably much more happened that I don't even know about since I heard people saying all sorts of strange things to eachother. They didn't say it to me, because I'd been forgotten as the originator of the story.
Anyway, I can see how a simple short circuit and some story telling could cause people to burn a city...or a city to burn people (Salem). I bet I could even start a new religion and have a million followers before I died, if I were that type. I'm sure I'm not the only one who knows this, probably explains a lot about religion and government.
It is interesting to note that some even became leaders in bringing my story to life, much like preachers...
I confessed to my lies when I deemed the situation out of control. Some thought it was funny. One guy hit me, hard. Some decided I was lying about it being a lie. These were all ordinary people--no nuts.
http://www.marxist.com/
Always applying religion when there is a simple more rational solution.
Jobe obviously wasn't killed by the mangetic core reactor as we thought he was... *looks around*
When modding "Informative", please make sure it both has a source and IS actually informative.
I'm a scientist myself, and I'm taking devil's advocate here, but don't take that to mean that I'm not being sincere in what I say.
First of all, extraordinary claims DO NOT demand extraordinary proof, and it annoys me every time I read that. Extraordinary claims demand ordinary proof, just like everything else. Many claims which we now consider proven (leaving aside the epistemological claim that nothing can ever be proven) were once considered extraordinary. According to the scientific method of empirical research, after enough tests come out positive, a hypothesis becomes a working theory. Period. It doesn't matter how extraordinary the claim is, there is no scientific "raising of the bar" for one claim versus another claim. If there was, we probably couldn't get any science done because we would have to examine every hypothesis for its "extraordinaryness" and set the bar accordingly.
Secondly, science tends to be dismissive of "faith" in favor of "science", but sometimes the things which are believed in "science" are uncomfortably close to "faith". For instance, let's take Einstein's General Theory of Relativity.
The GTOR works remarkably well on the scale of the solar system, so well, in fact, that we can predict the position of a planet 100 years from now within spitting distance of where it will actually be.
However, it's long been (what I would characterize as) an article of *faith* among physicists that the GTOR applied equally well throughout the universe, and indeed for a long time it was believed despite evidence to the contrary. Nowadays, we know that there's not near enough visible matter in the universe to make Einstein's equations work in our own galaxy, much less the universe. So what's the answer? Dark matter baby!
Well, to make matters (no pun intended) worse, we now know that the galaxies are moving away from each other at an *accelerating* rate. Now this cannot be accounted for at all, even with dark matter! Even if we're right about dark matter, the galaxies should not accelerate away from each other. So what is the answer? Dark energy baby!
Now, to an outside observer such as myself (I am not a physicist), it might seem that scientists were clinging to their old beliefs and trying to shape the universe to fit them, rather than admitting that they're wrong. In other words, they're taking the GTOR on faith, in spite of evidence to the contrary.
A physicist can say that the GTOR is evidence for "dark matter", and "dark energy", despite having absolutely no direct evidence for either one, only the indirect evidence that GTOR won't work without it. In the same way, someone who believes in God can do so because, well, we exist, and we had to come from somewhere. Science doesn't even attempt to answer the question of how the universe came about (if you reply with the big bang, please explain where the infinitely dense infinitely small point came from), so really, it's comical when a scientist ridicules a believer in God.
Do you see what I'm saying? Most scientists would admit that the question of the origin of the universe is one that science could never answer. Why then do they try so hard to discredit the belief in God? Science has no business even getting into the argument, at least until they come up with a reasonable explanation themselves.
WWJD? JWRTFA!
Perhaps an immortal was killed on holy ground? Seems much less severe than the last time this happened, though (Pompeii).
;-p
TV teaches me so much. I'm glad I gave up that bad habit.
You all laughed at The Core , but now the effects of the government expierements are rising to the surface. Stock up now on unobtanium now, the market will go through the roof soon. Forget your foil hats (they attract electrical discharges anyway) crack out the asbestos underpants and the SPF 1000. And don't forget to send those Apocolypse Day Cards.
SD
IMDB link for the clueless.
âoeWho knew something as harmless as willful ignorance could end up having real consequences?â
I grew up Catholic, but now I'm pretty much an agnostic: God may exist, but I don't think I can make such a determination, and I'm not sure what God is like if he does exist. I suspect that if there is a God, it's more of an "energy of the Universe" thing than a conscious being. (I just read up on Pantheism on Wikipedia from a link in this thread.) I definitely don't think God is going to change the laws of physics to help me win a baseball game.
But as an amateur physicist, I believe in Determinism. Time-space is a single entity. The Universe encompasses all space, so it must encompass all space-time as well. If we anthropomorphize the Universe (or suppose that there is any omniscient being) we can imagine Him sitting at the end of time (as we view it). He can look back from the end of time to our current time and know what we will do next.
However, I also believe in Free Will. I guess that makes it Soft Determinism. (Found on Wikipedia that it's also called Compatibilism.) While my actions may be pre-determined from the perspective of all time-space, my conscious mind does not exist in that reality. From my perspective, I am free to choose. Think of a book you're reading for the second time -- you know what's going to happen at any point in time, but you can't change it. But when you read it the first time (when you were a part of the moment) you didn't know what was going to happen.
It's an interesting characteristic of the human mind that it can simultaneously hold seemingly opposing ideas.
I'd also like to point out that Science doesn't prove things to be true either. It can prove things to be false, and provide strong evidence that theories are correct. But it can never provide the truth. So we're basically putting our faith in Science, just as many put their faith in religion.
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
favorite quote: "Demons occupy a house and appear in electrical goods."
I knew it was a demon that shocked the crap out of me last week when I was soldering a live wire!!!
And, if so, does anyone know how to fix it? I fell asleep about 20 minutes into that bomb... I sure hope they key to our salvation wasn't in there somewhere.
If I knew the wedgies I gave you back in 6th grade would have resulted in this . . . I might have taken a moments pause.
That's an excellent brief summary of Chaos Theory. It is certainly a useful model type in many cases, but I wonder if it is truly defining of our reality.
:)
As you imply, the illusion of non-determinism can exist in a deterministic system, which makes me curious as to whether non-determinism actually exists in our Universe?
If it does exist, then the grandparent could be right and non-determinism could exist throughout all of reality, which, when analyzing, we could simply write off as variations in measurement.
On a grander scale, many people are content to believe that a kernel of non-determinism lies at the heart of human "free will". Modern society does not blame fate for human actions, but rather the humans themselves. In keeping with this ideology, the paradox of "free will" versus a deterministic universe arises.
It seems that non-determinism vs determinism is a dilemma which cannot be objectively solved because absolute prediction about the future is impossible since we cannot effectively gather sufficient information (Heisenberg).
Some may say that this paradox is irrelevant since there is effectively no objective difference between non-determinism and uncertainty, but belief in non-determinism ("free will") has certainly influenced our society, and very arguably for the better... though, obviously, such an argument is recursive since it assumes the "free will" to choose.
Maybe I'm missing something. Any insight for me? In any case, thanks for prompting my muse.
I don't see any convincing evidence in any of the Wikipedia sources; if you follow the links, they lead either to (1) religious writings, with an obvious reason for bias, or (2) sources that are questioned by non-Christian historians because of the possibility of tampering during transcription.
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Also, I have no particular "faith" that the Christian bible is not accurate. What I said was that I don't consider it an accurate source of historical information. And by the way, it's far from "the only written account of history that goes back that far".
If this sort of thing interests you, though, may I draw your attention to an interesting book I read about today? Tom Harpur, long-time religion columnist for the Toronto Star and former Anglican priest, has written a book called _The Pagan Christ_. In it he discusses the idea that the Christ figure is a synthesis of other religious traditions. There's a Globe and Mail article on it here:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleN
The article makes the book sound worth reading. Cheers!
Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.