Slashdot Mirror
Area 51 Hackers Map Buried Surveillance Network
advair writes "There's a story on SecurityFocus about a pair of Area 51 'hackers' who discovered a buried network of wireless motion sensors on the public land surrounding the "operating location near Groom Lake, Nevada." Using a frequency counter and a GPS receiver, they tracked down and logged 30 - 40 of the sensors, before the FBI and Air Force raided one of them, and questioned the other. Now one of the guys has been charged with a federal crime for allegedly removing one of the devices that was protecting a base that doesn't officially exist."
My bet is area 51 is just a deco, think about you set up a "base" you plant a few "good" stories for the conspiracy theorist to love, you play the whole thing up. you have a real base some where else. Every one will flock to area 51, then you do your real work at area 52 (or what ever they might call it) I also doubt there are any extra terrestrial research going on in the government, think about it you need the best of the best to even think of starting it, and the government well its the government what other insult do I need to lob at it.
Area 51 is probably just a few buildings there to keep the amount of people to perpetuate the image that area 51 is real.
This people probably have fallen for it, and the government might have just planted the motion sensors to keep them busy, they the person steal one I don't know, but either way the government sorta unofficial clams it, and the conspiracy theorists will go wild.
Hasn't that base been officially declared as real, and that it has been unused for some time?
a pair ... discovered a buried network of wireless motion sensors on the public land surrounding the "operating location near Groom Lake, Nevada."
:)
Upon their arrival, hundreds of vents opened up and millions of alien-virus infected bees immediately started swarming around them...
Oops, wait, sorry... wrong movie.
Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment
Hast thou learned nothing from the x-files?...
"All great things are simple & expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." --Churchill
If there ever was anything at Groom Lake, it won't be there now. The SECOND anyone knew that UFO nuts had got wind of it, anything interesting would have been moved somewhere else.
At a tangent - whatever happened to Bob Lazar?
The base exists. Clinton signed it into existance when the workers sued for being exposed to pollutants which the goverment didnt want to disclose. As of 2002 all of the John Doe's are now dead and the foverment still didnt explain what materials they were exposed too.
* Large playing area
:)
* GPS coordinates are mapped
* Public land (hey, the taxpayers _pay_ for it)
* Who knows what goodies are at each site to be traded
Sounds like a good place for some geocaching to me!
Nowhere does it mention that one of these things was seized from the guy. What happened to assumed to be innocent until proven guilty? For all they know the thing could have broken, batteries run flat, someone drove over it, etc. Or for the conspiracy nuts - they removed it themselves just to accuse the guy.
Now they know that we know that they exist!!! on a serious note poking around in stuff like this is asking for troble be it legal or not. The gov needs to keep some things secret because some people don't need to know or are not ready to know some stuff,stuff like that causes problems.
Oh wait, it was just /. ed ...
Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
There's no such thing as "public land" -- the government owns every single bit of land in the country that's not owned privately (and even then -- there's property tax)
It also doesn't matter if the DOD name was on it or not, it doesn't belong to you, so why take it? Basic theft.
They got him on conspiracy, but they never said who with.
During the Clinton era it was acknowledged that Area 51 (Dreamland, Groom Lake, etc) existed. This was about the same time that Area 51 buffs reported a dramatic decrease in activity at and around the base. It was acknowledged in a very generic manner, but was acknowledged none the less.
Supposedly, the reason for the abandoning of the base was because the radiation from atomic tests wasn't going the "China Syndrome" way, back into the earth, but coming back up (area 51 was the 51st grid on a map used for nuke testing).
I haven't followed it for a while, but last I heard, the experts were pointing at Arizona and New Mexico as the new locations for many, mini, Area 51s.
END OF LINE.
"If you or I accidentally kick one of these hidden transmitters, should the feds be able to seize our Macintosh and photos of Aunt Betty?"
They took his Macintosh?!? Those bastards!
I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
Lot's of military bases have perimeter security and sensors. Try getting into Camp Peary in Virginia. Or any one of a number of other places.
oooo....But it's Area51! Obviously they are hiding something behind those sensors.
Ha. If there ever was anything alien there (highly doubtful), it's long since been moved. Hangar 18, maybe?
There was a television special recently about this. What I found even more interesting was a different security compromise.
A private investigator was hired to watch the airport in Las Vegas and he observed which cars came and went on a frequent basis. He was eventually able to deduce which cars' owner were spending the day at Area 51.
At that point, it became a simple matter of just following the cars to a plush neighborhood. When he went to knock on the door and asked about Area 51, they said "no comment" and shut the door in his face. One would think that just mentioning Area 51 would be enough to inspire curosity from the non-involved.
An once-insider agreed to secretly meet with them doing the whole inside-a-hotel with blured-face and altered-voice routine. He examined maps and photos and said they were accurate. He also said that there were no UFOs at Area 51, and that the big secret was the abusive politics and unsafe worker conditions.
Guess Area 51 scooby gang missed the television special on S4, where the anti-gravity from borrowed UFOs go on.
Several years ago the Sec. of Defense admitted its existence in a press conference. Hell, I can tell you what goes on there: nothing exciting. They test secret missile systems and secret aircraft.
Derek Greene
Now, granted he did rebury the devices, and granted, they were in the public park, not Area 51 itself, but it's not hard for the average person to see why this is a bad idea. There's a lot of stuff in "public" areas you're not allowed to monkey with. If a public park provided restrooms with those annoying motion-sensor faucets, does anyone think they would be within their rights to repeatedly take them apart?
Sure, there is a worry in this case about the government monitoring private citizens in a public place, but "approach" sensors invade privacy a lot less than swarms of armed guards peering through binoculars from the fenceline 24x7.
In short, this guy crossed the line. I understand being intrigued, and even outraged by these devices, but making a map is one thing, and once he figured out what the devices were he never should have touched them.
(Just had a scary thought on preview: what if the odd buried device he found had turned out to be a errant landmine? Of course it's massively criminal for it to be there, but there is a reason you don't got poking unknown military hardware...)
Well if we weren't all on a list before this story, we are now. Thanks /.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Area 51 is probably just another detention camp where alien terrorists are being tortured^Wquestioned. Govt. denies the existence of this camp to protect the red cross inspectors from the awful sight of ugly aliens nursing their greenish wounds. Ever seen an alien with sleep deprivation? Uh oh...
cpghost at Cordula's Web.
Now one of the guys has been charged with a federal crime...
If you absolutely, positively must be raided today - illegally enter a restricted area.
I mean, come on, you know they're motion sensors - what did you think would happen?
-Adam
The Federation of American Scientists has a nice description of what is on Area 51, as well as many links to provide more info.
There is no denying that there is much about the place kept under wraps, but the crazy UFO stories need to come to an end.
Sunny Dubey
Here is the link from the article to the photos of the sensors. Sensor Photos
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." -Albert Einstein
Karma? There's a serial modder out there.
President Bush gave the area an exemption from EPA regulations on waste disposal in 2002:0 020918-9.html
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/09/2
Read any good sonnets lately?
For added excitement:
*Armed patrols
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
In this post on the Area 51 site linked to from the article, Joerg Arnu (one of the "hackers" in the article) claims that Poulsen lured him into the interview under false pretenses, then refused his requests not to use the interview, hung up on him, and didn't return any further messages. I haven't read much of Poulsen's stuff, but is this typical of him?
Juiced? Or Not?
Area 51 is real and is used everyday. There are planes that take off everyday from McCarran Airport in Las Vegas bringing employees to Groom Lake.
"Another area of interest is the EG&G terminal on the Northwest corner of McCarran International Airport. Every weekday morning, about 500 people arrive at the guarded terminal with one destination, Groom Lake. When I was in Las Vegas observing the activity of the EG&G terminal, I counted six EG&G owned 737-200s. The aircraft are easily identifiable; they are white with a red strip running the total length of the plane. They fly out to Groom Lake about every half hour in the morning but things slow down in the afternoon with about two to three aircraft always sitting outside. Starting in the late afternoon (I noticed one coming in at 2:30 PM), the 737s start coming back to Las Vegas. At about 6:00, all of the aircraft (6 of which I counted, there could be more) were back to the EG&G facility for the night. Below are the photos that I took when I was out to Groom Lake and observing the EG&G terminal." From sr-71.org, and a picture here.
Also for the "new" Area 51, Popular Mechanics had an article a long time ago that is located here.
Ever heard of this concept? The simplest explanation is probably the best one. Let's start out with Area 51 being a "secret military base" that "doesn't officially exist". Area 51 exists, is acknowledged to exist, and is generally known as an Air Force base. So what could their motivation here be?
Probably that they're tired of a bunch of crazy conspiracy theorists trying to get a photo of the "aliens" on the base. The idea that Area 51 is a government hoax is ridiculous. Anyone who works or has worked for the US Federal Gov't knows the insane levels of bureacracy that you have to deal with on a daily basis, and you don't get thinking anywhere near that creative from the federal government.
Let's stop making such a hugely asinine deal about this. Get out of your basement and stop wearing your x-files t-shirts around.
-- K
The system they are using is most likely the IRembass [sec.army.mil] system which is used in detecting movement.
http://www.dreamlandresort.com/area51/new_sensors. html
No offense, but go back to basic civics.
The government is not "owned" by the people. The representatives in government are elected by the populace, all save the President, who is elected by the Electoral College, and only the Electoral College (the popular vote, in the long run, means dick in the Presidential election).
The government owns its own property, the government owns its own buildings. I'm sure that in a communal sense, sure, since our tax dollars paid for it, we may own some small part of it, but effectively? No.
Site slow, freecache doesn't work on files less than 5mb (and I am not letting my webserver feel the wrath of slashdot), so here's article text:
Area 51 hackers dig up trouble
By Kevin Poulsen, SecurityFocus May 25 2004 1:03PM
To the Area 51 buffs who travel to the Nevada desert in the hopes of catching a glimpse of unexplained lights in the sky or to bask in the mythic allure of the region, 58-year-old Chuck Clark is almost as much a part of the local color as the Black Mailbox.
A resident of tiny Rachel, Nevada -- 100 miles north of Las Vegas along the Extraterrestrial Highway -- the amateur astronomer and author has spent years keeping an eye on the spot the government calls the "operating location near Groom Lake, Nevada." He's said to be a frequent presence at the Little A'Le'Inn, where you can purchase post cards and tee shirts, enjoy an "Alien Burger," and walk out with a copy of Clark's "Area 51 & S-4 Handbook" to guide you on your journey into the desert.
But this self-appointed military watchdog is harder to find these days: messages left for him at the Inn go unreturned, and his media appearances have dried up like Groom Lake itself. "I think he's really not as motivated to talk to the media anymore as he used to be," says friend and fellow base-watcher Joerg Arnu. The reason: it turns out the truth really was out there, and the government didn't appreciate Clark digging it up.
Clark didn't find the Roswell craft or an alien autopsy room -- in fact, while officially shrouded in secrecy, the 50-year-old base is generally believed to be dedicated to the terrestrial mission of testing classified aircraft. "The U2 spy plane, the SR-71, the F-117A stealth fighter, all were flight-tested out of the Groom Lake facility," says Steven Aftergood, director of the Federation of American Scientists' Project on Government Secrecy. The myth of Area 51 memorialized in films, T.V. shows and novels is a function of the secrecy that surrounds it. "It is a concrete manifestation of official secrecy at its most intense, and that invites a mixture of paranoia and speculative fantasy that has become ingrained in popular culture," says Aftergood.
Even without aliens, the facility has its secrets, and last year while roaming the desert outside the Groom Lake base Clark stumbled upon one of them: an electronic device packed in a rugged case and buried in the dirt. Marked "U.S. Government Property," the device turned out to be a wireless transmitter, connected by an underground cable to a sensor buried nearby next to one of the unpaved roads that vein the public land surrounding the base. Together, the units act as a surveillance system, warning someone -- somewhere -- whenever a vehicle drives down that stretch of road.
Similar devices had been spotted in the area in the early 90s, but they were crude and bulky, stashed in the bushes and easily spotted. They were later withdrawn. The new road sensors are more clandestine, given away only by a slender antenna poking up through the dirt. "They're very, very hard to find, because there's just this little wire, like a blade of grass," says Arnu.
Sniffing Out Surveillance
Arnu, a Las Vegas software engineer, has shared Clark's preoccupation with the Groom Lake base since 1999, when he made a trip to the area to see what all the fuss was about. "I thought, okay, I'll give it a try, see what's out there... A couple of days turned into a couple of weeks and before I knew it I started developing a website about Area 51," says Arnu.
So when Clark found the new generation of road sensor, Arnu drove out to help investigate further. The pair found that, at close range, they could use a handheld frequency counter to pick up the wireless signals given off by the devices as a car passes. Over the following month and half, Clark and Arnu engaged in a kind of geocaching game with the Men in Black, systematically sniffing out the road sensors with the frequency counter, exhuming them, and opening them up. They discov
Founder of Mirror Moon - Tsukihime Game Trans
Actually, while in an ideal world he probably shouldn't be prosecuted for investigating sensors in a public area, I do find it encouraging that, when he bothered Area 51, he got prosecuted, rather than just disappearing in the middle of the night.
Can anyone tell me how to set my sig on Slashdot?
An article in Aviation Week back in (I think) the late 80's had and interesting article. Apparently the seismologists in California had tracked a "shock wave" comming in off the coast heading out to the desert at 4000mph. Due to it's shape and speed, they concluded it was not a geologic event and probably a really fast aircraft heading out to 51. Don't underestimate those guys just because they work for the government. Remember, the SR-71 was designed in the 1960's. Of course, I think most cool things we have today were invented before I was born. Now it's all an effort to patent things so there's no need to innovate...
I saw this series of docu's on two roque FBI agents . You should watch it it's called X files or something.
-- I don't buy it, I grow it.
Trains make no sense in the wide-open Midwest, but here in the Northeast, Amtrak is actually an efficient and relatively pleasant way to get between major cities.
I believe the Northeast Corridor line is actually profitable.
Can you reproduce this?
While I know that often plea deals are important in order to garner testimony about organized crime or other criminal activities this sort of case illustrates (or at least might illustrate since I don't actually know who is telling the truth) the potential dangers. Bizarelly I find myself in agreement with Ashcroft, plea bargains should be *only* be offered in return for becoming an informant, it should be banned (legally and not just by the AGs rules) otherwise.
For instance in this case the government has *every* encouragment to file suit against this guy even if they have no evidence. The threat of prison time is scary enough that any normal person will take a plea agreement accomplishing what the government really wants, stopping them from investigating area 51 (it would not surprise me at all if part of his probhation is not to even passively map the sensors, or even go close to area 51). The plea bargain allows the government to exercise considerable power by the threat of legal action without any real chance of court review.
Moreover, as far as I'm concerned giving someone a deal for pleading guilty should be a violation of the 5th ammendment. After all a plea bargain is a reduced sentence in return for not insisting on your innocence. Or put another way in the presence of a plea offer there is a penalty for insisting on your innocence. Sure it isn't technically punishing someone for refusing to incriminate themselves but this is certainly within the spirit of the ammendment, if the implicit privacy argument is considered a valid constitutional principle than this sort of broad interpratation of the 5th is perfectly reasonable as well. I really can't see any pragmatic difference between a law which penalizes someone for not testifying to their guilt (which presumably could only apply if the individual was convicted) and a general practice of giving significantly reduced sentences in return for the admisson of guilt.
Some people will protest that my position would rob the judicial system of discretion. Not at all, judges would still have plenty of discretion to give a light sentence. The change would just stop penalizing individuals for insisting on innocence. I also think it is only because upper class white kids always recieve plea bargains in drug cases (while poor black ones often don't) that the public is willing to stand for things like mandatory minimums and extreme drug sentences. I doubt most of the prosecutors are overtly racist but many people's gut reaction to seeing a well dressed white kid busted for drugs is a good kid who screwed up while a black kid in baggy pants and so forth is far more likely to be thought of as a bad person. Sure, the problem will still exist in sentencing but at least the system will be a little better and more open (it is easier to see that a judge is racially biased in his deciscions because everything is public record while often the surrounding facts to a plea bargain aren't so publicly accesible).
If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:
Using the latitude and longitude garnered from wikipedia, and terraserver, we can clearly see that this place is an airport. Area 51
All those people being flown in an out are CmdrTaco's chefs.
As for President Bush signing an excemption for waste disposal.......well, I'll leave that to your imagination.
And if you thought that was boring you obviously havn't read my Journal ;-)
the reason the government was forced to disclose that there was a base at area 51 because of a lawsuit from employees that worked there. they had become sick with some sort of chemical poisoning but the government would not tell them what them had been exposed to. the doctors couldn't figure out what it was either and these people had started dying. skin was peeling off their bodies. the government denied the existance of these people. they were refered to as john doe 1 through 7. their lawyer argued that these people must exist because they were sitting in the courtroom and in the hospital. the judge agreed. then the goverment said these people may exist but the location where they claimed to work doesn't exist. their lawyer argued back that it does exist because he drive him out to the desert and point at the damn base. the judge agreed. the government then said yes there is a base but nothing is going on there that would cause these people to get sick. this is wrong too. area 51 is exempt from all EPA hazardous materials disposal laws. there are numerous reports of large football field sized holes being dug and filled with barrels of unknown chemicals then being covered in jet fuel and set on fire. that doesn't sound safe. they never did tell those people what they were exposed to.
I would have been pissed if some yahoo started messing with them, too. After all, they are there to ensure that no one vandalizes the equipment or gets fried by the 21,500 volts that exist across the base insulator of the antenna. We were most afraid of some BASE jumper getting killed while trying to climb the tower. In LORAN the whole tower is "hot" instead of a small radiator at the top.
And if they broke one, I'd have to fix it.
It is easy to argue that the govnt employs common people, who cannot handle some info. The truth is, that the secret stuff gives the feds an advantage over spooks in other countries. If you can keep the fact that you have a fleet of F-117s on hand, you get the advantage of Saddam Hussein not buying the latest anti-stealth shoulder launched rockets from Serbia at $zillion a pop for a few more years. Simple. Military advantage. I can handle knowing that the USAF has rocket powered toilets just as well as the next guy, but may be in USAF's advantage not to let ANYONE know about it.
It's logical that if they publish this in the USA, then Osama is going to read all bout it the same day. It's not that regular people like us can't know about it, it's that us not knowing about it is the only way to guarantee that Osama won't know either.
They have full right to do this in the name of security, and it is also their duty to judge what information may be released. Remember, if they release something which allows Osama to level New York tomorrow (i.e. "suitcase thermonuclear bomb for $100 HOWTO"), it's THEIR ass on the line.
And just to drive the argument home: Foreign spies would be out of work if stuff like that was public. What's the harm? Why do you think other countries spend so much money on intelligence, if this info isn't crucial to security?
Seriously? If its area 51...then where are the other 50 areas? Excuse me, theres some helicopters outside I need to check out. they look cool, all black and
I'm sorry, but I'm more comfortable with a lack of transparency when it comes to our aerospace defense technology. It's not like we're talking about Gitmo here... ;) We have much more secure unclassified bases up to some kind of mysterious shennanigans (Diego Garcia island!). I hope we have next generation fighters and bombers being readied, but I have to doubt the existence of Aurora fighter command when the V22 and YF-22 are years from combat readiness and may never see action before they're scrapped.
The problem with area 51 is that it's become notoriously cliche to suspect something 'spooky' is going on. Mention aliens in full seriousness to anyone, and chances are they'll laugh in your face. It's a myth, and a mighty good one, and perfect to mislead every ol' shmuck. Guys with trucks and such are probably employed only for the purpose of keeping myth alive just to give the people something to care about. Kinda like an amusement park with AK-47's. Besides, if everyone's eyes are focused on this red herring, then the real stuff is still flying under the radar.
hee hee hee.. You aint too far off on your idea... Go rent a "earth shaker" truck like they ones they use in seismic surveys and set up shop out by their sensor range. *BRRRRUMP!* And watch as they go bonkers trying to figure out what in the world happened.
If you were ever in the testing area when they were doing oil and gas surveys, then you know how it would be to their sensors.
First rule of holes; When in one, stop digging.
They were messing with stuff that doesn't belong to them. It eve said right on it that it was government property. Just because you find something on public land, doesn't mean it's yours to mess with. I work on public land (state university) and thousands of cars are parked here every day. Doesn't give you the right to go in any of them and mess with them, you'll be arrested and/or beaten up if you do. They are still the property of the person that holds the title, despite being parked on public land.
You make a good point. There's one more thing that I would like to add.
Many people seem to think that the terms 'government' and 'military' are interchangeable when it comes to conspiracy theories and the like. This is where a flaw in many theories lies.
Just because some government officials can't seem to keep their mouths shut (and let's face it, not all "leaks" are intentional) doesn't mean that classified military information can't be kept confidential. The military uses a different system. When you rely on strict need-to-know principles you reduce the number of PoFs (point of failure) to a minimum. Yes, there's always a few people who really do have a need-to-know but those can be hand-picked and are easier to monitor and control. Also, you can get away with implementing and enforcing a lot more stringent and intrusive security measures on military grounds than you can in a civilian workplace.
i used to work there. i'm in my fifties now, but i still remember.
...mom, what's it your doing with the cable? this is for homework, i'm not surfing. mom, don't...
it's deep under the earth, and at least two alien spacecrafts are hidden there, one still able to fly. five alien pilots are also hidden there, two are alive and held prisoners, cause only they know how to fly these spacecraft with only one finger.
these aliens come from a planet called ursa minor, and one is called wowbagger, all he can do is talking in insults.
[CARRIER LOST]
beer as in "free beer"
The funny thing is how much businesses come to believe that FedEx can do no wrong. Mostly they're excellent, but there are some areas of the country where they're NOT the best, and some businesses refuse to listen to you when you tell them what the "conditions on the ground" are.
I had a friend who was a pharmacist at a hospital in northern Michigan (UP, Keweenaw area). He ordered some medical supplies from a place, and said "ship them UPS overnight. *DO* *NOT* ship them FedEx." Well, they shipped them FedEx overnight.
About 5 days later the boxes were still not there. He called them and said "You shipped them FedEx, didn't you?" They had, and (as he knew) FedEx in that area is not guaranteed. They weren't going to drive 180 miles round trip from the depot to deliver one stinkin' package. They put all the boxes on a pallet, and when there's enough to bother, then they send out a truck.
UPS, OTOH, has a local depot, and plenty of packages come into the area, so they have no problems delivering overnight (though there is a cutoff line, way out on the peninsula, where they don't guarantee 10:30 delivery anymore).
This was 20 years ago, I'm betting FedEx has a local presence now, but I know there are still parts of the country where there are better choices than FedEx.
This story always comes to mind when I'm watching the commercials where the guy didn't use FedEx, so the package is delayed.
I live about 100 miles north of Groom Lake. They test all kinds of things like microwave weapons to knock out communications. Once or twice a month my cell phone squelches worse than any CB you've ever heard. This lasts for a few hours. I've also seen unmanned vehicles flying in the area, some going almost faster than the eye can track them.
But instead the money paid in tolls and fuel taxes is siphoned off into the state's General Account spending fund and spent on things entirely unrelated to road maintenance and repair (at least in California).
9/11 Eyewitnesses to Explosive WTC Demolition 1 of 2
Man, at least PRETEND to read the article first. There are linked pictures, everything is clearly marked:
U.S.
GOVERNMENT
PROPERTY
There is reason for having secret areas. "We're paying for it" does not mean I get to walk in to the oval office and hang around during a meeting between Dubya and Rummy, or that I get to go to Langsford and videotape someone punching passwords into the nuke arming systems, or "borrow" some weapons control software.
The only thing is, here, they put the sensors on public land, which is NOT marked out as restricted area. I don't personally have a problem with that; I can point a webcam out the window at a public park, they should be able to put a camera in a hiking area. These sensors are LESS intrusive than a camera, they just sense cars passing by.
But they shouldn't be able to put you in federal FMITA prison if you wander off with a piece of equipment you find in the desert. If they want to keep it from getting stolen, they should embed them in the top of a 55 gallon drum full of concrete, and bury that with the top a bit below the surface.
If the mail is so slow why not either have the mortgage company draft your account or if you are not comfortable with that, they can probably do a "check by phone". Even if they charge a small fee it might be worth it to not have to stress out each month.
Good luck!!!
Ohana means family. Family means nobody gets left behind or forgotten.
Animats says:
"If you want to see an SR-71 up close, the Boeing Museum of Flight has one."
As does the Smithsonian's Udvar-Hazy Center. In fact, you can check it out right now via their webcam.
"The plural of anecdote is not data" -- Bruce Schneier
20 years ago, as FedEX was starting and had limited coverage, someone I once met has a bad experience.
Therefore, FedEX sucks.
Does that about cover it?
As I sat hitting reload, in 1996, on the FedEX web site, to see where a package I'd shipped was, I saw that, suddenly it had been signed for. I called. the guy was astounded. "Wait, I can still see the truck driving away. How did you know I just got it?"
In an effort to get this thread on topic again, I'll suggest that Area 51 is a research area of the US Gov't in an effort to design air vehicles to replace the USPost Office.
Because the USPS is the only entity that's better armed than the army, and far more motivated to use said arms, the feds must keep Area 51 top secret, lest the USPS make a move and take over the gov't.
Back off topic, no, I don't use United Pulverizing Service any more. When my friend and boss ebayed a well packed guitar amp and it came dead, we opened it up. It had been dropped, buy our guitar techs guess at least 10 feet to afix the speaker magnet to the back of the amp. UPS refused to honor the insurance, claiming that the (recommended by them) double boxing and loads of packing foam consituted "bad packaging."
Maybe you are right we should keep to ourselfs we should stop giving out the trillons that we do to other countrys.
We give out $15 billion in various types of foreign aid with the bulk of it being "foreign military aid" to countries that serve our strategic interests(Israel, Pakistan, Uzbekistan) rather than humanitarian ones.
But don't feel bad. Many Americans think we devote almost a quarter(24%) of our budget to foreign assistance when it's really about 1%.
Given the types of governments in the countries we send "aid" to, I think their citizens might prefer it if we turned off the spigots and stopped propping up bloodthirsty dictatorships.
Not ever again...I'll tell you *that*.
Anthony Papillion
Advanced Data Concepts, Inc.
"Quality Custom Software and IT Services"
It is reasonable to assume that military science is extremely advanced in many more areas than simply aerospace. Indeed, with even the slightest use of reasonable thought, it is perfectly logical to assume that almost all of the technology which Slashdotters and the public at large consider 'New' and get all excited over, is really stone-age by comparison to what could be available if only it were allowed. --That in fact, the reality we all live in is a total farce -which for some reason- nearly everybody seems happy enough to play along with.
.
.
"Oooh. Digital paper." "Oooh. Bigger hard drives." "Oooh. Internal combustion."
This stuff is only impressive in the way that withheld candies are impressive to children. To pretend that we are actually pushing the boundaries of human knowledge and capability with any of this crap is nothing short of willfully stupid.
"Yeah? So what?" --Some might ask. "We know this is how it is, but there's national security to consider."
Er. . . Well, no, that's a very thin excuse. This goes far beyond secret planes which fly faster. Technological advance has happened in areas and directions which go amazingly far beyond a simple question of keeping the better airplanes out of the hands of the commies. (Which in itself is an incredibly stupid concept which again, everybody on the planet plays along with.)
The war in Iraq is an excellent example.
Saddam and his forces could have been removed with very few soldiers with much greater efficiency and cleanliness than was done. The kind of technology available and in use today makes it possible to shut down a city or a stronghold, walk in and murder or abduct the people you want to murder or abduct with ease and simplicity. The only reason to commit giant forces with archaic weapons and broken, (and some would say, nonexistent) tactics to a giant overseas ground war is this. .
To create a huge, infernal endless war designed to kill millions of people and absorb billions of dollars in goods. --There is a LOT of money and power to be had from big messy wars. Understanding how this is true and where the power comes from and goes to, who it benefits and why, is the first step to grasping how the real world works.
Consider this. .
One of the other directions military research has gone in has been toward that of mind control and mood altering. In fact, this could easily be considered the holy grail of military science; when you can control a population, then the need for guns and tanks is instantly nullified. --And anybody who has any level of competency in research, and who has the courage to look at frightening possibilities rather than seek comfort in ridiculing others while avoiding the pain of being ridiculed themselves, (and geeks have strong sore spots regarding this given their experiences through life; and isn't it curious that those most able to see through the veil are also those targeted with some of the most deliberate and cruel social programming?) --Anybody who knows how to question and has the balls to do so, knows that the holy grail of mind control was discovered long ago, and is widely implemented today across all strata of society in many different forms.
Secret planes that go fast?
The military industrial complex, (to use an old but accurate term), has more than secret planes in its bat belt!
The 'other' effects of cell phones upon the human brain and cognitive function were not only well understood, but were deliberately designed and were the primary reason for the proliferation of the wireless technology. --And population control through EM is only one way; combined with chemicals in our food, the direct psychological programming in advertising, music, television and movies -through all strata of media- combine to provide a means of near total control of humanity.
Many of you laugh. Would it be mind control if you feel that knee-jerk desire?
No, no, no. It needs to be more clear.
'Use of deadly force authorized...' Hell, it should say 'We will give the guy that puts two in your head a promotion and a weekend pass.
Reasons why I am never going to be allowed to be president
In God we trust, all others require data.
Poulsen used to run with Kevin Mitnick. You may have seen him on Unsolved Mysteries or on a post office wall... (he's the one who won a Porsche from a radio station by taking over their phonelines)
Now he's "reformed" and reporting for Security Focus (however his reporting tactics are tantamount to social engineering).
At $2.45 a gallon and 3 hours of driving I just find a different company to order from instead of fooling with FedX.
They do have a deal though that you can sign up for a preauthorized drop point, either at your house or another location that can solve my problem of them wanting a signature, but I haven't gotten around to doing it yet.
When it comes to matters affecting national security or federal government interests.
A few examples:
Counterfeitting U.S. currency is a '20-years in prison' offence.
Restricted airspace over government buildings such as the Pentagon and the White House.
Federal employees are considered Government property: It is a felony offense to threaten the President's life. It is an automatic 25-year sentence in prison to assault/kill a U.S. Postal Service mail carrier.
These two guys brought trouble on their own heads as the Feds likely used the 'eminent domain' card to make their little mapping project backfire.
Again people,
When it comes to matters affecting national security or federal government interests...
DO NOT FOOL WITH THE FEDS!...
(Definitely not now after the the events of 2001-09-11 in New York City, Washington D.C., and Stonycreek Township, Pennsylvannia.)
We still have trouble in the UP getting packages delivered on time, because we still have the 'pallet problem'. But, more packages are going through, I suppose, because there's so much more business up here now and because of internet/mailorder purchases.
Use this phrase, I've found it useful:
"If you ship FedEx, the package will be refused."
Oh, I don't like UPS, in fact I prefer FedEx over UPS. But if I have my choice, I'll pick USPS, or Airborne Express. I've had the least amount of trouble with them. USPS handled almost all my 150 or so eBay sales shipments a few years ago when I was cleaning out, and no package was reported damaged. One of the five that I sent UPS (buyer's choice) was damaged. Every package I get via USPS looks like it was just picked up at the shipper, carried by hand 20 feet and placed in my box.
But as has been mentioned, I'm sure there are depots where they are understaffed and underpaid, and stuff gets abused. Probably true of all companies.
Call them (1-800-ASK-USPS) and complain.
No, I'm serious. The branch near my work was consistenly undermanning the front desk. Three windows, one open, line a mile long. So I finally called and complained. Next time I went in, lo and behold, all three windows open.
So remember, kids, squeaky wheel and all that.
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
Where is my 'eveidence'? I'm 'enitlted' to my own beliefs? I'm sorry, did you say that you earned a degree?
Anyway. . . I'll answer this directly, but first I'm going to respond with a quote from the post you are having such a strong knee-jerk reaction against. . . (I've never quoted myself before, but it strikes me as relevant this time around. Hold on.
Okay. .
I've spent the last five years collecting, reading, interviewing and comparing all kinds of information regarding this stuff, and based on all of that, I have formed my current knowledge structure.
Aside from some of the government contacts who have been kind and brave enough to answer my questions, nearly all of the information I have looked at is freely available to anybody who chooses to seek for themselves. --Some of it must be dug up at the cost of some personal effort and expense, but those looking must expect to work for their knowledge. Nothing is free; it all takes effort, curiosity, and above all, a willingness to see the truth rather than resist it.
Even the sorts of contacts I have made are possible for others to make if they work hard enough.
So you want proof and evidence? Go get it. It's all out there, and I don't owe it to you. Your ignorance or lack thereof has no real value to me and I am certainly not going to fight to overcome your personal barriers in order to make available the fruits of my labor, particularly if you are going to be so rude about asking.
This is, in fact, a common piece of behavioral programming; the belief that the world owes people 'proof' and 'extraordinary evidence'. --That somehow, ignorance is something which should be fortified, defended and valued. A very strange and illogical state, but one which has been successfully impressed upon the public subconscious. --I think, in part, by way of endless court-room dramas on television. Television is an amazing tool when it comes to controlling how the public thinks.
In any case, your state of awareness is YOUR problem; nobody else's, certainly not mine. If you ask, I'll help, but it seems fairly obvious that you don't really want to know anything beyond the preconceptions you currently hold. With the violent sort of response you just demonstrated, it sounds to me like you very much want to stay ignorant. --Though, to be fair, a single post on Slashdot is far from enough to properly gauge a person's intent and personality. (It's a start, though.)
Anyway, what sort of formal study did you do in regard to the Military Industrial Complex?
Also, when looking at something simple like, Crop Circles. . . How much do you actually know about them? People who ridicule so very loudly typically don't have a broad understanding of the subject. I am curious to know the depth of your information.
-FL