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Moon Rocket Scrubbed and Blown Dry
loid_void writes "Reutersis is reporting that a giant Apollo moon rocket that never got off the ground is about to get a face-lift after years of rusting away in the Texas heat and humidity at the Johnson Space Center.
Workers will construct a shelter for the Saturn V rocket and give it the equivalent of a "blow dry" in the first steps to preserve the relic of NASA's golden age, said Allan Needell, Apollo program curator for the Smithsonian Institution's National Air and Space Museum.
The 363-foot-long behemoth has lain on its side in front of JSC since 1977, a favorite sight of tourists, but also a victim of the elements.
Instead of launching astronauts to the moon as it was built to do, it has become a slowly fading hulk of peeling paint and corroded metal where birds live and plants sprout, Needell said on Wednesday during a visit to the rocket.
"There's a lot of biology growing on there," he said, pointing out streaks of algae staining the rocket's white skin."
How cool would it be to sink a Saturn V rocket as an artificial reef!
Who talks like that anymore? I mean really. Nobody says, nice engine, there's a lot of friction going on in there".
Hmmm.
Step 1: Steel Saturn V
Step 2: Steel phantom WMD from Iraq
Step 3: Put up a tent in some desert hell hole
Step 4: ???
Step 5: PROFIT!!
You mean we used to go to the Moon?
For all the people who fuss and complain about the money spent on actual space programs, this is a great example of the kind of wastefulness that goes on. And, now, rather than reuse or slag it, even more money will be spent to clean it up and display it. I'd rather see it broken apart, melted and recycled in more useful form than have a never-used moon rocket sitting in a museum.
I was taking one day at a time, but then several days got together and ambushed me. (from a Rhymes with Orange comic)
I have to object to referring to the 1960's/70's as NASA's golden age. Surely, that should be regarded as NASA's infancy, and that NASA's golden age may be yet to come? Maybe it's too optimistic, but I'm a 25 year old astrophysics grad student, and I know how much is out there waiting to be explored and examined -- I don't want to have to live my life in the belief that my industry's best days were before I was born!
I wonder if they'll have any involvement. After all they single-handedly restored the Liberty Bell 7 (their link here. And also helped with the restoration of the Apollo 13 as well. When you tought of Kansas, you probably didn't think of space now did ya?
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
Although I've lived in the US for a few years now, I've never had the opportunity to go see some of this stuff. Seeing this thing cleaned up and in a permanent display will definitely be worth the price of admission.
And in honor of the Saturn V incredible amount of thrust, we'll only serve partially-cooked Mexican food, broccoli and Velamints!
It would be a bit crap actually.
Ships have doors and are built for people to wander around and are highly accessible when sunk. Sinking an overgrown fuel cylinder to dive around would be about as interesting as watching 'The Sphere'...
Agreed. Mod Parent Up.
We need goals. I want to live my life trying to do something big for humanity. Too many people these days see their job as a necessary evil to getting a paycheck.
"Open the pod by doors, Hal" > "I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave" sudo "Open the pod bay doors, Hal" > alright
I live in Houston and I've visited JSC a lot of times through the years. The Saturn V is in bad condition, and has been steadily getting worse. Something surely needs to be done.
And to those who have called it a waste of resources, I have only this to say. All the money in the world won't be of any use if we don't create another generation of engineers and scientists. I've personally seen the look in a kid's eyes when they get up close to something enormous and meaningful. You just can't buy that.
I drive past it several times a week (down Saturn Drive for the locals), and it just makes me sick to see it in the shape it's in. Thank God it's finally going to be taken care of and treated as the treasure it is. The pictures don't do justice to the damage being done to the ship.
By the way, as a teenager, I was horrified to hear that they were going to display it on its side. I thought for sure that it was going to be displayed upright. What a dweeb I was (am?). Yeah, that would be great: make it so you could only see the bottom. And then there's the problems it would cause with low-flying aircraft, (lots of them, including those annoying advertizement-pulling planes). Oh, and we get hurricanes down here in these parts.
A clever person solves a problem, A wise person avoids it. -Einstein
Maybe they can get corporate sponsors to paint logos on the side to help defer the cost of upkeep? Nothing says 'merica like a big McDonald's M(tm) on the side of an unused million dollar rocket.
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
Did anybody else read that as 'Moon Scrubbed and Blown Dry'? :P
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
--Aristotle
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The sad fact is, that not only are the glory days of NASA behind us, but the glory days in general are behind us. I, for one, have an extreamly bleak outlook on the future, and I am sure I am not alone.
Surely it's obvious that, in the interests of science, this rocket should be renovated, refueled, and have a Chevy Impala tacked on the top, where it lies.
Everything I needed to know about life, I learnt from Blake's Seven
Million? Probably the better part of a billion- even in 1960's dollars.
Reutersis is reporting that a giant Apollo moon rocket...
For a while I thought that Reuter got a sister I don't know about...
The purpose of life is to find the purpose of life.
I agree that we need projects and items which inspire the current generation to believe that will still have the ability to get out and explore. I also believe that it is the likes of daring private projects such as Scaled Composites who best serve this need.
I know that 'Space Ship One' is by no means an orbital system but what about its succesors?
Lighting bloody-great big fireworks and pointing them in the general direction of orbit is probably not the most efficient means of getting anywhere.
We need to be exploring new ideas and concepts rather that always referring to the 'good old days' of the point and pray rockets.
I agree, that as a homage to the histroy of the early space-age a Saturn V should be preserved in near-perfect viewable condition. However, if the money for preservation could alternatively be channeled back into r&d, then preserving more than one example of a complete Saturn V would be wasteful.
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
+1 funny to minamar and nizo.
Don't they just sound like a slapstick comedy team?
And with uid's of 786261 and 81281, they'll get the hard-core and the ne0phytes.
I've personally seen the look in a kid's eyes when they get up close to something enormous
Michael Jackson beggs to differ.
A similar effort is under way at the U.S. Space and Rocket Center in Huntsville, Alabama. In fact, they've created a special license plate to help raise funds. Otherwise, the Smithsonian has threatened to take the Saturn V back. (Which would certainly be an interesting sight.) You can see the license plate at the bottom of this page.
I thought Saturn's used plastic body panels and therefore couldn't rust? Oh wait... that's the car company.
Slag history. Nice troll.
Most of the public will never see all of JSC's relics. The center is a small museum in itself. Tucked away in various display cases at different locations are relics and images from NASA's history. Rocket Park is the most publicly-accessable and visible example (with the historical Mission Control being a close second). However, there are also everything from space suits to models of early Shuttle designs used in anechoic chamber tests on display in buildings only accessable by NASA employees.
Granted - JSC is no Smithsonian Air and Space Museum. But there are a lot of small, neat things to see if you ever get the chance.
The best way to honor the memory of "NASA's golden age" would be to top it.
NASA does excellent unmanned science, but the moon shot, cool as it was, wasn't good science or space policy.
Good thing private efforts are starting to pick up the slack.
I must add that the most awe-inspiring thing to me is that all the construction, design and launch was done on slide rules.
What do you think happened to that money? They laminated $100 bills and used that for the skin?
No. A whole bunch of contractor companies were hired to design, build, and test parts of it. Companies that hired people. Thousands of skilled people. People that got paid a good salary for a good days work. People that supported tens of thousands of other people by buying food, clothes, cars, houses.
So it didn't get used. The budget and interest ran out. A shame, but not like the money was wasted.
What would you prefer we have done with that money? Collect taxes and merely give it away?
Everytime I see my UID I think of the Van Halen OU812 album for some reason.....
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
They ought to auction it on ebay. I wonder what it would go for...
If God had meant for man to see the sunrise, He would have scheduled it later in the day.
Don't you mean thank the American tax payer?
When I was at Marshall Spaceflight Center in Huntsville, Al., they used to test the SSME (Space Shuttle Main Engines) at a test stand a few miles from my building. I was amazed at the power and noise of the SSMEs until an oldtimer told me what it was like when they tested one of the Saturn V engines: He said your coffee cup would literally bounce off of the desk, and forget talking on the phone during a test fire. And that was just the one engine. Imagine what it was like when they all fired at the same time...
A clever person solves a problem, A wise person avoids it. -Einstein
Is that some new type of disease?
"after years of rusting away"
rusty titanium?
Surely its not made of ferrous metal?
or even got much ferrous metal in it...?
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
Cant we find a better way to spend $4M, like cancer research. Anyway, I only support the space program for real and cost-efficient research, meaning we need to stop sending up humans.
Homo Sapiens Americanus--A documentary in p
That'll the longest blow job ever
Whole industries got a boost or were even created with that money...computers.
The Tang industry is still benefiting mankind as well as other lots of other stuff too.
Auction a Saturn V on eBay? Think of the shipping cost!
Slashdot inspired pickup lines are the most effective contraceptive there is.
My girlfriend does it to me nightly.
Step 1: Steel Saturn V
Step 2: Steel phantom WMD from Iraq
Step 3: Put up a tent in some desert hell hole
Step 4: ???
Step 5: PROFIT!!
I think Step 4 is "SteAl Spell Checker"... or perhaps I'm just not reading right. The Saturn V might be steel and the WMD's might be steel as well...
Am I the only one who sees this as a great pick up line? .]
[. .
Random gal: *SLAP*
This is why us geeks can't get chicks. Our definition of a "great" pickup line is the one that generates the hardest slap. :)
"Wow, you're like some kind of superhero able to ward off happiness and success at every turn."
-- Ryan Stiles
And in the movie version, Asia Cararre plays the museum staff with Ron Jeremy as the Apollo Rocket....
It made me sad, actually. Something kept telling me "this ship was supposed to go to the moon, and it's here because it didn't."
Call me sentimental, but she looked like a giant failure of human exploration to me.
+++ATH0
There's a good statement to be made here about the implied social contract that a representative government makes with it's citizens. As the US population continues to grow, the percentage of people with no marketable skills will likewise continue to increase. And if our society is going to support the idea that we can keep producing more people despite the fact that there are less resources available for them, we need to find a way to keep everyone happy and feeling productive, without overburdening the government or creating a negative social status (welfare).
Put simply, the government needs to be able to support people who want to be artists, writers, musicians, hobbyists, explorers, naturalists, scientists, inventors, or any other interest that involves individual dedication and creativity. The product of the work those people do would be public domain, benefitting everyone, without consuming many resources or putting taxpayer's money to poor use. Meanwhile, anyone with a line on a normal form of employment or who wished to retain ownership of their works would follow the normal, self-supported way of life we all try to have today. Anybody could choose which path to take, and the cost of the system is not as high as you think - it doesn't take much money to pay someone a basic income to relax at home and write poetry. And by supporting people's interests we would be encouraging people to follow them, rather than paying based on the number of children a welfare family can crank out, as we do today.
Until recently, Oxford, Cambridge and other universities in the UK were completely free for citizens to attend. Graduates of those institutions could go on to hold a post with the government, researching various things for a moderate income for all their lives. This is the way things should be, not requiring students to pay hundreds of thousand of dollars to feed the over-inflated salaries of university administrators and who then must accept positions that often encourage them to bend their ethics for the purposes of a greedy individual or corporation.
The government _SHOULD_ be "wasting" millions of dollars paying people to do things like develop a space program. It has benefited us all and cost us much less than the 'war on terror', which has left us only with degraded individual freedoms, dead men and women from mostly lower-income families and more millions into the bank accounts of the businessmen who engineered the whole thing. Thank you, Cheney.
-Elentar
The wheel it turns, around and around, with an ancient rumbling sound.
It got its own center about 7 years ago. You have to take the KSC Bus Tour to see it. It's in pristine condition, and each of its segments is labeled and described. It's a shame that the KSC site doesn't have a better picture of their Saturn V, but I have one here.
Corny as this may sound, bleak outlooks on the future, however "justified," tend to produce bleak futures. The inverse is also true.
As I've said in more than a few other space related threads, I became an engineer because of Apollo. Despite my mild depression, the space program has instilled in me a sense of optimism and purpose I just can't shake. As long as there are bright people with big dreams, we're in for greater days, I promise.
On a more personal note, if you're young, remember that your life is just beginning and, given enough hard work, courage, and luck, you might just help bring about the next golden age.
If you're older, and forgive me because I can't help but be rude here, please don't infect our youth with that nonsense. They need all the hope they can get.
*that* was funny? Who's modding today, Bob Saget?
Is there a rocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?
Why are we spending precious money that could be better spent either giving it to corporations or proving that the moon landing was a fake
What I'd like to know is what's to become of the birds and other small animals that call the rocket their home? Is it time to give PETA a call and sic 'em on NASA?
SourceHosting.net, LLC
Ready. Set. Code.
http://www.sourcehosting.net/
This here slab of inanimate metal gets a wash and a blow-job, and here I am, alone at home on a thursday night.
It just ain't fair.
Up until a couple of years ago, I used to work for IBM on Space Park Drive in Houston (you can see the rocket as you drive out of the parking lot of Building 8). Any visitors I had would inevitably get a trip around JSC.
The rocket is not in good shape - there are holes in it, and the paintwork is cracking and peeling. It was quite sad really. Good they are doing some work on it.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
Sounds expensive. Last time my rocket was scrubbed and blown dry it cost me under a hundred bucks.
I worked at the Johnson Space Center for two years, back in 1976-1978, and I was there when they brought in the Saturn V.
... really annoyed, saddened, and angry that NASA has let this vehicle rot away.
This was actual flight hardware that was supposed to have gone to the moon for the Apollo 18 mission. When they brought it in, it still had red "Remove before flight" tags hanging from various places.
I am
I don't think this part of our system is so bad. I do agree with you that forcing people into massive debt so they have no choice but to take jobs in investment banking, management consulting, technology, or go to law school, med school or something. That basically sums up about 80% of my graduating class at Harvard.
Many of the best and brightest people I knew at Harvard didn't go into academia, though some still have plans to go back in that direction after a while. That's sad - some of these people would have been able to make some really great contributions to humanity, but the financial imperatives of our society exert a lot of pressure. Instead, they will do big deals, move around a lot of money, get big clients and drive nice cars. Hopefully some of them (like me) will start companies that bring new products to market and make peoples lives better in small ways.
Some dude: "There's no air in space." Homer: "But there's an Air 'n' Space Museum."
So if every single Saturn built had made it into orbit, would you have considered the Apollo project a gaint success of human exploration?
So not all the Saturns got launched. I feel sad for this particular rocket, since its sole purpose in life was never realized, but the project itself was still successful--giantly so!
And even this sad, unfulfilled engine of discovery can still find a purpose: to remain here on Earth, to stand as a monument to human exploration, and inspire in all who visit the sense of greatness appropriate to the endeavor it represents.
But you know, hey, feel free to be bummed out about the whole thing, if that's what turns you on.
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
I could not see the Gantry, so I had to wait 'till it came over the trees. It was a moonless night. The moment it was ignited, and minutes before I saw it, the sky turned an acetylene-yellow and night became as day. Had I been driving on Interstate 95 there is no doubt I could have turned of my lights and drivrn in complete safety at 70+ MPH: it was THAT bright. About 30 seconds later, the groundwave hit and set of every car alarm in the neighborhood, made every garage door rattle and got every dog withing miles howlin' thier arses off. About a minute or so afterwards, the rumble of the motors was heard.
An additional minute passed before it came over the trees and headed North.
What a beast of a machine. I bet the Saturn was at least twice as impressive.
Rock-N-Roll!!!
Yeah...I think this beast is worth saving.
I live in Huntsville, which has two Saturn V's, one actual rocket laying on its side in Rocket Park, and another model standing in full, 360 foot glory, by the interstate. Nothing is more riveting than driving down the interstate at night and being able to see this shimmering white spectacle from miles away. It's a true testament to American ingenuity and brilliance. There are alot of things that are restored with practically no signifigance. This is something that can inspire America once again. The 1960s, between the Apollo program, and the Interstate Highway System, were the last giant American engineering marvels. We need something new to amaze our children and continue our engineering superiority.
PlatinumCursor - "Blinded by the bling..."
Moon Rocket, Scrubbed and Blown Dry
It just sounds kinda dirty, like a review for astronaut porn or something....
"Moon Rocket Scrubbed and Blown Dry" is not a good choice of words. When a launch is postponed it's said to be "scrubbed." And "blown dry" does not evoke the right image because of "scrubbed." If you want to have fun with a headline make it internally consistent so readers will get the joke. A better choice would have been "Moon Rocket Gets a Wash and Blow Dry."
Insert witty sig here.
It is a shame they're going to spend 4 million on one of the few remaigning relics of the zenith of America's space age. Perhaps you would also be concerned about the 400 billion a year corporate welfare state we created for the defense industry, but the difference is a mere 10^5.
http://www.saturnrestoration.org/
I am also in possesion of a rocket which has been neglected for far too long. Where do I sign up to have it 'scrubed and blown'?
Someone submit this thing for X Prize!
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
Communism failed, buddy. Haven't you heard? It turns out everybody wants to be a poet and nobody wants to be a janitor.
There is another rusting Saturn V in even worse shape at the NASA museum and space camp in Huntsville, Alabama. I believe they're soliciting donations to restore that one as well.
I thought they were going to clean it up and prep it for launch! Now that would have been worth reading about... =)
Yea, I need someone to blow me dry too... damn, it's been a while.
Right now you really need to focus on supporting yourself. Don't worry about these people; they are very capable of supporting themselves through the fruits of their own intelligence and free will...
Ah, didn't see that one coming. Pffft. You can decide on your own if you're satisfied with the way your congressional representatives spend your tax dollars. Vote. If you had written a letter to your senator instead of this vague posting to a discussion about retired Moon rockets you'd be half way to liberal righteousness by now.I'd like Jennifer Lopez to give my rocket a blow dry.
What utter insanity! Allow me to break this down for you from two points of view.
From society's point of view, it's a bad idea to reward people for wasteful, unproductive behavior. By this, I mean behavior that doesn't meet (directly or indirectly) a country's basic needs like feeding people, helping people stay alive, keeping out invaders, etc. Poetry is nice and all, but it's just a pastime. Rewards (no matter how small) should go to those that earn them by doing the difficult, dangerous, unpleasant things that just need doing.
From my point of view, you can piss right off. How dare you suggest that society take some of my money and give it to some lazy bastard!
What about documenting its decay?
Let is lay, rusting in that field. Lets spend our interest on documenting its decay.
Watch our fleeting focus on expanse slip away, get ruined by moss and tears.
Whats the hurry? Think this is all we have to achieve?
Take pictures of the dustpile. Our great-great-great-great...great grandchildren will find our travels -- and our sense of accomplishment -- amusing.
History is a long time.
Okay, I just have to post again after re-reading your post.
And if our society is going to support the idea that we can keep producing more people despite the fact that there are less resources available for them, we need to find a way to keep everyone happy and feeling productive, without overburdening the government or creating a negative social status (welfare).
Poppycock. I could give a damn if someone feels bad because he recognizes the fact that he's useless. And the problem with welfare isn't that applies a "negative social status" (as well it should!) but that it rewards people for producing children when obviously there were insufficient resources for the parents. (You pointed out both this population/resource issue and the welfare cause in the very same sentence, yet failed to connect them... strange.)
Put simply, the government needs to be able to support people who want to be artists, writers, musicians, hobbyists, explorers, naturalists, scientists, inventors, or any other interest that involves individual dedication and creativity.
Artists, writers, musicians, and maybe hobbyists (Hobbyists? WTF? Who isn't a hobbyist?) might benefit those around them in some metaphysical sense, but not in any practical one. They certainly don't deserve public subsidies. Are you aware that artists can sell their works? If the artist can make a living that way, then he will, and capitalism worked. If he can't, he'll find a job that pays, and capitalism worked. In no case is it necessary to resort to communism.
Until recently, Oxford, Cambridge and other universities in the UK were completely free for citizens to attend.
Hundreds of thousands? Wow. Look, you don't have to go to Oxford. There are many great universities (at least in the US) in the low tens of thousands, start to finish. Many even lower, depending on what you're planning to do when you get out. A small price to pay. The years you invest gaining the education are worth more. As uses of public money go, however, I would have to say that subsidized education is certainly not the worst.
With your last point, that interplanetary boondoggles are still more worthwhile than wars on terror, I must wholeheartedly agree.
All the launched Saturn V first and second stages are somewhere on the ocean floor. I doubt if they're at reef depth, though.
The clearance system sounds logical. It is not. It is completely arbitrary. -- John Bolton
Precisely. People with viewpoints like that often refer to "The Government" and seem to believe that "Government" money is mana from heaven. Taxation is involuntary servitude. It is confiscating the fruit of the labor of your fellow man. It is something to be minimized, not maximized. It is a necessary evil, with the emphasis on EVIL. To tell a person that they must, on pain of *death* (which is the ultimate power of the state, to kill you for resisting it), fork over their money so that a poet can sit at home and write poetry, is just morally wrong. Paying the poet voluntarily, that's a good thing. More power to you. Enslaving a fellow human to provide for your needs is wrong. Keep that in mind when you speak of the "right" to healthcare, or food, or whatever. Does your supposed "right" *require* the labor or money of another human? Think about it.
People doing things from the goodness of their hearts is a beautiful thing. People doing things at the behest of the barrel of a gun, where the alternative is prison or death, is a pure evil.
Larry
"Moon Rocket Scrubbed and Blown Dry"
That Saturn V is just screaming for a giant latex-colored tarp to be draped over it, emblazoned with the Trojan logo.
Bigger is better, after all . . .
Learn to spell.
First time I have laughed at Slashdot in a while.
Unless you're on the MOON!
In soviet russia moon visit us.
How come these rockets didn't fly? The development cost was gazillions, the huge manufacturing costs were paid for, was it really just to save a few (million?) bucks that they didn't launch the last appollos? What did the government p!ss away the money they 'saved' on?
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
True story- We used to have a rocket building club among some high school friends of mine, and would semi-regularly launch in the huge, mowed fields next to the JSC Saturn V.
:)
As we were not a proper rocket club, but a bunch of unsupervised geek-childs, the emphasis was on the crazy, unpredicatble, ovepowered, underfinned, prone to explode, etc, etc.
It so happened I built a series of rocket engine powered planes, most of which just spun around. However one made a very dramatic flaming high speed 500 foot long horizontal flight that ended in a head on collision with second stage of the Saturn V.
There was no visible damage to the space-capable behemoth, but my cardboard aeronautical absurdity crumpled and shattered from the blow!
It's too bad, what with the overboard paranoia and touristy admission charging space center they built, you can't even get out there anymore, much less have fire missiles of your own.
disclaimer- I did not aim my plane at the Saturn V, it homed in on its own!
The label says dry-clean only?
You don't need a lab to make mud.
This will probably get lost amongst the noise, but does anyone have a link to a downloadable video of a Saturn V launch?
Cheers,
Roger
Do you have any better hostages?
One of my earliest memories (I was 3 at the time) is of the Apollo 11 landing on the Moon. The very sight of these things, never mind the strains of Also sprach Zarathustra, gives me goose pimples and reminds me of the glory days of the 1970s.
I'm curious...did they remove anything from the rocket when they set it on its side, like remove equipment from the capsule, etc? Was it ready to fly in that it could have been fueled up and fired, or was it just put together for display purposes?
It's history, and the only answer is to restore and preserve it. Two years ago, I went down to Florida to see the rockets and launchpads. To see that Saturn V in the building was simply amazing and those huge F1 engines with pumps capable of thousands of gallons a minute capacity. And, a computer control system that had about as much power as a pocket calculator. The giant crawler thing, the VAB, all those things are so gigantic and impressive to see. They essentially created a bomb with fins on it and flew people on top. Simply amazing.
-- After all is said and done, more is said than done.
Until recently, Oxford, Cambridge and other universities in the UK were completely free for citizens to attend.
This was not true in the 1960's, when I lived in the UK and my sister was attending University. I don't believe it was ever free.
First up were you a UK citizen?
Universities in the UK have never, to my knowledge, been free for foreign students.
A long long time ago (maybe the 1960's, I'm not sure) I believe that some (maybe even all) UK universities charged their students. However during the 1970s-1990s universities in the UK were free to UK citizens. Indeed for much of that time students could also get a student grant from the government to help assist them through university.
Things were starting to change when I attended uni in 1990. The grant had been reduced quite heavily and was in the process of being replaced with student loans (low interest government loans to students). Grants disappeared totally about 12 years ago. There was even a while when students could claim unemployment benefit as well as their grant.
These days all but the very poorest students in the UK must pay annual tuition fees which is currently standardised for all universities. Hardly anybody qualifies for free tuition now. The universities though are still subsidised. This is likely to change again in the not too distant future with more presigious universities such as Oxford or Cambridge charging higher fees.
Uh oh!! Sapagettioo!!!
Look what I found at the bottom of the page!!!
Sssshhhh!!
Everybody take note!!!
DON'T post extracts or...[NO CARRIER]
[lawsuit type="dmca" excuse="copyright-theft"]
FBI!!!
GOT YOU HIPPIES!!!
At last! First we shut down Slashdot!Then the net!!
And there's nothing you can do about it lawbreakers!!!
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[/lawsuit?]
May the Maths Be with you!
You make a good point here. Of course virtually all the comments you've received so far have been disagreeing with you. What good capitalists the Slashdot crowd are. :-)
Of course, as I'm sure you're aware, one big flaw with what you put forward is that the concept of "public domain" has been virtually completely destroyed. These days just about everything is owned by a corporation somewhere. Even things that are ostensibly developed as government projects for the people are actually owned by corporations.
It is also true that as some have pointed out what you are proposing is basically communism. In an ideal world what you propose would be possible, but as you know we don't live in an ideal world. We live in a world full of selfish SOBs who don't give a damn about anyone apart from themselves. They're more worried about lining their own pockets than ensuring their neighbours are not starving to death - our governments are full of people just like this. We're essentially trained to think this way throughout our whole lives starting from a very young age. Unfortunately that's modern capitalism for you, and changing that mindset is very difficult indeed.
I've noticed that too, about the number of avowed capitalists who post regularly on Slashdot...
;-) Yours was the best so far because it brings up a couple of direct points - one being that the public domain is no longer a domain but more of a dusty corner, and the other being that communism (and to an extent, socialism) doesn't work. Whatever a government does to provide for citizens who cannot support themselves, it must not be more attractive than actually working for a wage. This is where better minds than mine are needed - I think that all of society would benefit if anyone had the option to live 'for free' on the government and produce something intangible, but only as long as there was some reason for _everyone_ not to do that.
It's true that my post had many flaws, and I've enjoyed reading the responses, even the ones that made fun of me.
In other words, I'd like to see the government hire artists of all types for the purpose of entertaining us all. A platinum-selling musician doesn't actually make all that much money ($40-50k/year is excellent from what I understand), so it seems feasible to me. Simply giving the NEA more money would accomplish this.
I have no idea how to solve the greed problem, though. I just wish the idea of 'reasonable compensation' applied to every form of payment - nobody needs to make $4 million a year to play a sport. And when a musician has made more than a reasonable amount from something they've created, it should enter the public domain where everyone can benefit.
Yeah, yeah, I know, to most of you I'm just a commie bum and only want to steal everyone's hard-earned wealth. But there must be _something_ better than what we've got now.
-Elentar
The wheel it turns, around and around, with an ancient rumbling sound.
I agree with a lot of what you and the parent poster (bluesnowmonkey) said - we certainly shouldn't have a society that makes being unemployed more attractive than working for a living. And taxation is definitely bad! I don't see it going away any time soon, though, so I'm suggesting better ways to spend the money.
The National Endowment for the Arts is a good example of what I'd like to see - taxpayer money going to produce works of art that are in the public domain and anyone can enjoy. Music, poetry, murals, sculpture, etc and all of it available for free (or at the cost of the media) as a direct return on your tax dollars. The NEA is much smaller, and generally just produces art that gets put into museums or public buildings, but it's a start.
Nasa is another good example - your tax dollars could be used to pay scientists to research things that improve all our lives. It doesn't have to be a trip to the moon, either - if a government-funded horticulturalist developed a black rose, you could go buy one and plant it for only the cost of other 'public domain' roses. That would benefit everyone, although certainly some individuals could care less about it.
Allow me to put forth another idea related to taxation - if you work for the government providing your skills to those in need, you are free from having to pay taxes on your income. That income, of course, is also limited - but you have made your finances simpler, you still make enough to live, and you're working for the betterment of our entire society. Is that type of employment for everyone? No, certianly not - likewise not every doctor is willing to volunteer at a Red Cross facility or a homeless shelter. But for those who do wish to do so, there should be some kind of benefit. I have seen far too many professionals who spend much of their extra time and money helping others and still face the same tax burden as others.
Our way of life, being profit and wealth driven, is rooted in the laws our government enforces. Change must begin there if we are to reward ethical behavior and a social conscience - until it becomes at least as rewarding to help others as to help yourself, we will not live in a society where "paying the poet voluntarily" happens.
So, to answer your post, I would like to see the money that is being taken from me at implied gunpoint put to a use I approve of, one that benefits society as a whole. Not putting pot-smokers in prison, paying private contractors to rape prisoners in other countries, creating a security force to harass and delay travellers while providing no actual protection, giving away telephone and electric infrastructures to private companies and investing in technology for poor schools that is left to rot in a warehouse somewhere. I'd rather be enslaved to a poet than enslaved to _THAT_.
-Elentar
The wheel it turns, around and around, with an ancient rumbling sound.
Spacecraft Films (www.spacecraftfilms.com) has "The Mighty Saturns" multi-disc DVD sets available, and these are very very cool.
All the footage has been captured direct from the National Archives, and much of it has never been seen by the public before. The 'Mission Reports' series shows quarterly Saturn development reports made to Congress, giving you a true feel for the national scope of the project.
The company also produces excellent DVD sets on each of the Apollo missions, with _every frame_ of video and film shot on the mission, from rocket rollout to splashdown, UN-EDITED. These are the 'complete downlink' editions. Talk about geek pr0n!
You doubters can study the lunar EVA footage and see if you can spot the fakery - but if you watch how the lunar dust comes off the boots and the rover wheels, IMHO there is no way that could be done on Earth...
Also excellent is the book 'Stages to Saturn - a technological history of the Apollo/Saturn Launch Vehicles' by Roger E. Bilstein. It's NASA publication SP-4206, has photos and drawings, and is available from the US Gubmint Printing Office, which I believe is www.uspto.gov. More detail than you ever wanted to know...
Have fun kids!
This sure gives a new spin to 'rubbin the rocket'!
Poets have been selling their works for a long time. Granted, not many have gotten wealthy off of their passion, but maybe that's because it's not worth a whole lot. I suspect that a lot of people are like me and appreciate art, but have slightly less need and desire for it than, say, a good sandwich. So it kind of sucks that you and others have decided that I need to help support the NEA. Because, you know, I'd really rather fund new brake pads for my car than the creation of a picture of the christ in a jar of piss, or whatever else is coming out of the NEA nowadays.
Just to be totally clear, none of the above contained any sarcasm whatsoever.
One of my earliest memories is live TV coverage of Apollo-Soyuz. My young brain was very puzzled because I didn't know what number "Soyuz" was.
From society's point of view, it's a bad idea to reward people for wasteful, unproductive behavior. By this, I mean behavior that doesn't meet (directly or indirectly) a country's basic needs like feeding people, helping people stay alive, keeping out invaders, etc.
:-)
Dude, I was going to write a whole load here about unproductive behaviour that seems to be accepted in modern society which is damaging to society. The habit in America for suing every man and his dog when something goes wrong is a good example of this, and plenty of people are employed and rewarded for this. I would say that this is most definitely against the interests of society.
I can't really say how to fix this though.
Unfortunately also many things go on in the name of making our countries safer places these days which actually do the opposite, but the majority of people are too stupid to see that's actually the case. Anything problem that isn't clearly black or white, yes or no, and can't be solved in 15 seconds tends to either get ignored or folks tend to accept a yes/no answer from people in power. The world is of course far more subtle complex than this.
The solution to this one is better education for all, which means not people knowing more facts, but people better able to think for themselves. Unfortuantely that's against the interests of government and big corporations so that's unlikely to happen any time soon.
From my point of view, you can piss right off. How dare you suggest that society take some of my money and give it to some lazy bastard!
Yes, but we're essentially talking about utopian ideals here, and the changes necessary to bring them about are not going to happen without some kind of big revolution. In other words chill dude, the status quo will be around for quite some time.
Besides that, how do you know that it's going to be lazy bastards receiving money? This mythical money could be going to fund research that could save your life.
Also I would argue that this doesn't even need a great deal of money anyway. If you ensure that everybody is fed, has a home, medical treatment, and clothing then the job's essentially done. Not that expensive at all really. The USA could easily afford to make sure all of its people had those basic needs - it would take a tiny fraction of the current military budget.
Um, no one is forcing them to go to Harvard. There are cheaper places to go. In fact, the only reasons to go to a top echelon school is either (a) Big bux after graduation or (b) The marquee value for the very rich who can afford it.
If love of knowlege, or improving humanity, is your reason for higher education, you really should be looking elsewhere.
Although, I do want to be a janitor.
That line always works for me. You must be ugly or poor or something.
No it was free, unless you weren't British citizens. Indeed in the 1960s this included a generous maintenance grant! So not only was it free (you needn't pay to attend) it was salaried to an extent as well. My uncle was a student at this time and able to not only attend university, rent digs and socialise, he had enough money to run a small sports car. These days there are little or no grants available and you have to pay, I think, about 3k a year (set to rise in all probability).
Plays violent online games as: Nerfherder76
As a child my parents often took me there to see the exhibits. I am glad to see that they are taking long needed steps to preserve this icon from the "space race" for future generations.
At JSC it has lain outside the front entrance from sometime, and as a child I remember bieng awestruck at the sheer size fo the bohemoth. The thruster cones are as tall as a house. It is about time they did something to preserve this treasure.
*NOTE* Now maybe they will do something about the Seawolf class Sub and Destroyer at Seawolf State Park.
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!