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NYT Magazine: Are Comics The New Mainstream Novels?
securitas writes "The New York Times Magazine cover story this week is a (typically) long feature about the rise of comic books and graphic novels into mainstream culture, with writer Charles McGrath (former editor of the Book Review) stating: 'Comic books are what novels used to be -- an accessible, vernacular form with mass appeal ... perfectly suited to our dumbed-down culture and collective attention deficit.' McGrath cites the mid-1980s birth of a movement that began and fizzled with Maus (Art Spiegelman), Love & Rockets (Hernandez Bros.) Watchmen (Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons) and Batman: The Dark Knight Returns (Frank Miller). The current renaissance in graphic novels include non-fiction Palestine (Sacco), non-fiction Persepolis (Satrapi) which has sold 450,000 copies, Ghost World (Clowes), American Splendor (Pekar), Road to Perdition (Collins) and Chris Ware's Jimmy Corrigan: The Smartest Kid on Earth, which won the 2001 Guardian Prize for best first book and has sold 100,000 in hardcover. McGrath interviews Marjane Satrapi, Julie Doucet, Joe Sacco, Art Spiegelman, and Alan Moore, among others. The article also has a multimedia interactive feature with many of the graphic novelists (registration required) in the magazine article."
The author of the article barely makes mention of it except to crack a joke. Manga has been mainstream entertainment for people of all ages/social status for years in Japan, and accounts for about 1/3 of all books and magazines published there (and several billion US dollars in sales). Where 'Comic Books' are considered Geeky in the US, Manga is read by everyone from children to housewives to businessmen.
It's about time we started catching up...
Urge to post... fading... fading... RISING!... fading... fading... gone.
> Are Comics The New Mainstream Novels?
This may be true, although I have a slightly different perspective. I think we just really like the people who make comics, because they are expressive people; these same people could do anything else and we would like it just as much. For example, take Scott Adams, the creator of Dilbert. I have been holding out for the next Scott Adams novel (not comic, read: handbook). I was greatly amused, and felt better protected against the weasels in society, after reading "The Way of the Weasel." This was a fantastic read, filled with cynical, yet practical knowledge, to help combat the weasels ruining our workplaces and our private lives. Sure Dilbert comics make an appearances in TWotW, to illustrate concise points, but they only accent the rest of the book and support points raised with classic Dilbert humour. His writing is stunning -- and wholly useful. I can only hope he writes another one of these because I found it totally useful, as I'm sure many of you have.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
...for all your dumbed down graphic-novel reading needs.
Seriously, if you've never read it, it doesn't get more bloody or offensive than that... my favorite graphic novel by far.
Yep, good old New York Times, never missing a chance to sneer at popular culture.
After all, if people actually like it, it can't possibly be good.
Perfectly suited to our dumbed-down culture and collective attention deficit...
I think that's a bit harsh for novels and graphic novels. Some of the comics cited above are difficult, intelligent stories with involved character development and a good story to tell.
Calling that dumbed-down undersells the artists and the readership.
I'm pretty sure someone was saying that about Dickens in his day.
Cheers!
Erick
http://www.busyweather.com/
It might just be my imaginiation, but the golden age of comics is over, with all those web comics swamping the already broad selection it's hard to find a decent one.
Not to mention cathy, someone shoot the creator already
I kninda fell in love with Wulff Morgenthaler though, humour that's sick enough for me.
that the most maintstream is political propaganda? It subvertedly cites how such media as Fox News is technically considered comic book material, somehow striking a chord for those looking for good old school girl pr0n.
sigh--cap it all.
The Custom Mary
Oprah: Hey y'all!! I've gotta new book for Oprah's Book Club© today!! It's the latest issue of "100 Bullets"!
Book Club Member 1: I really enjoyed this issue Oprah.
Book Club Member 2: Me too, when the protagonist exacted his revenge in the three page, four color graphics, I was moved.
Book Club Member 3: I was able to rediscover the goddess within!
I don't think comics are the new novel.
"Here's a spoiler: You're will die alone."-Triumph the Insult Comic Dog
I'm sure many of we lovers of the medium of comics will object to the "dumbed-down" comment"
Comic reading implies a different kind of literacy.
Not an illiteracy.
We know many people who don't read comics because, as they say, "we don't get it".
I pity the comic-illiterate, for the unique joy that they lose out on.
And I question the implication that comics are "dumb".
Many literary works of great sophistication, not to mention beauty, happen to be comics.
I just saw "Comic Book the Movie" staring and directed my Mark Hammil. I do believe that this movie does show many of the reasons why it does not hit major mainstream. I love comics but some of the people who are all about comics just plain creep me out. There is that stigma and it scares many self proclaimed (and they want to be that way) "normal" people away.
/. so let the flamebait mods begin.
Yes, I do realize those guys are prolly mods on
Evolution or ID?
How can you have a post on graphic novels without including Neil Gaiman's "Sandman" series? ;)
:)
Seriously, this is some of the most amazing stuff ever to come out, both with respect to storyline and art. Gaiman is a master wordsmith and weaves elements of ancient religion, existential philosophy, and wry british humor into his works. More here, here, and at Gaiman's Blog.
Seriously, check it out. This stuff is awesome
-JT
You must be new here...
Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
The one I enjoy is a bit different from the dumb spandex wearing underwear fetish superhero comics, but conceptually more challenging fare. one real masterpiece of the comics medium I have seen in recent times is The Smartest Kid On Earth. It's an almost oppressively bleak look at the commonplace estrangements that make up much of modern life. There is a leavening of black humour however, and the outstanding art is a delight in itself.
Mucho recommended
[ I can not bring myself to believe that if knowledge presents danger, the solution is ignorance ] -- Isaac Asimov
Don't get me wrong: I'm a lifelong fan and reader of the medium, I've done a little on the creative end of it as well, and continue to do so as an avocation. But it is not (yet) a phenomenon of mainstream media.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
I just wonder are comics part of the growing trend within drama and literature to 'spice up' the story, by adding in shall we say supernatural elements.
For instance many new shows star vampires, dead people, are set in space or have oodles of compuers and special effects lathered all over them. Which isn't to say that some aren't good. Similarly, there arn't a lot of comics just about regular joe bloggs action. Much more likley to find mutants or flying superheroes than cops and robbers. Dick Tracey was phased out for superman, MacGuyver for Star Trek.
Personally I think people prefer to have the added spice of exotic setting or characters. It's OK, but I think a lot of modern pop culture is being sold on the cherry topping alone by exec types catering to the L.C.D. Which isn't to say good stuff isn't there. It's just that old signal to noise ratio falling again.
It still enjoy a good old fashioned detective story, complete with mudane setting and plot. I just gets more riveting!
May the Maths Be with you!
I find graphic novels paint a mood in an instant without resorting to pages of descriptive text. In an fleeting moment, you can sum up the scene perfectly. Try doing that in a full page of text.
:P
There is also the fact that the graphic novels are usually serialised, thus keeping the interest from one issue to the next - not a constant build-up and single climax as with most "modern fiction".
It also seems easier to spot reused plots in graphic novels
"We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run over." - Aneurin Bevan
Comics will never become novels any more than a bicycle will become an airplane.
What's happening is that comics are becoming more popular while novels are declining in popularity.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
Is it that comics are growing in popularity for our "dumbed-down culture", or that Hollywood - having run out of new ideas long ago - has renewed interested in comics because they're remaking so many comics - both new and old - into movies?
No. Sure, I'm echoing an AC's sentiment, but here, I'm not being a jackass about it.
if Comics really were an influence in American culture, then why is the industry itself in the shits? If it wasn't for comicmovies, Marvel probably would've filed for bankruptcy AGAIN. I'm looking here and seeing bankruptcies in 1996 and 2002. That's not healthy under ANY measure.
Not just that, but I've been observing the comics industry, and I'm sorry to say that it's devouring itself alive. Alternative book saren't selling, so they have to really press on old, rehashed characters, which inturn turns off non-geek types who'd normally be turned on by alternative books.
They're playing only to thier base, which is getting smaller in terms of population percentages rather than try to diversify. I mean, I'd hate to say it, but the American industry could learn a thing or two about the Japanese industry. Not by using big eyes and other cliches(like Marvel did, fucking mangaverse bullshit), but rather, instead by trying to diversify the market to the point where there's a story for everyone, published in a cheap, easy to access form. Japanese monthlies are about 600 yen(about 5 bucks, I think, it's been awhile since i've priced the bigass phonebook style compilations, i'm probably off base here) and come with between 10-20 or so stories. Some publishers even run weeklies. In America, for about that much, you can get two seperate books which probably havee thick, and I mean THICK, continuity. And you're stuck with ONE genre. Super-hero action-adventure. Even though most compilations are typically gender/themed(Nakayoshi comes to mind, where SailorMoon and MKR was published), you tend to get a mix of stories.
Not to mention that those books play to only one group, and those are the comicbook fanboys. As much as comic books are for supposedly for kids, these days they're more for 15-20something fanboys who tend to do poorly socially(my crowd, I never got the whole comic thing though).
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
He said, "That's right. It make things a lot easier and cheaper."
There you go.
Why do all the old line types insist on trying to make any media that is more visual typcast as being less intellegent. Every mass media goes thru a few stages in it's evolution. 1-"Golden age"-Only the elite have access to it, so it is focused towards the interests of the elite. 2-"Silver age"-Less lofty in content, but popularity grows rapidly, usually this is when people say it will "revolutionize the way people communicate" 3-The "Porn age"-least lofty content as the money guys come in and the lowest common denominator is applead to 4-The "ho-hum" age-the media becomes an acepted part of everyday life and overlooked. Print, radio (one with am, once with fm)the internet, and each iteration of the media (like, print went through it with paperbacks, then again with desk top publishing, the internet went thru it with the first net, then with wireless) it haapens again and again, now it's comics turn. Tv went thru this twice, once with broadcast, once with cable, then a minor progression with satlletit, and again with digiatal cable.
http://www.geocities.com/sethseekstruth/great_out
I think that's a bit harsh for novels and graphic novels. Some of the comics cited above are difficult, intelligent stories with involved character development and a good story to tell.
Please, are you kidding us? I read Batman: The Dark Knight Returns which was okay, but at the back it already admitted they basically made up the last two parts on the fly under pretty intense deadline pressure. And it shows, similar to the way Coleridge's Kubla Khan took something of a dive after he was bothered out of his drug-induced state and the dropped his inspiration -- except I'm not sure Dark Knight part 1 is exactly Coleridge at his best.
Look, I enjoyed Spider-Man vs. Wolverine as much as the next fellow and I'm glad comic book characters have outlets to behave a little more maturely than they do in a short monthly comic, but if you want to find great mainstream literature these days, take a look at Umberto Eco or Toni Morrison, not Frank Miller, please. Graphic novels are perhaps better called the new graphic novellas; they simply aren't replacements for 200-600 pages of truly great writing.
It's all 0s and 1s. Or it's not.
Sadly I find our culture is all about working too much and not having enough free time to have a real culture. No wonder we have an attention deficit, we can't even sit down and have fun that the week end is already long gone.
AKA, "The Last Titan." It is hands down the best comic I've ever read. It is dated 2002, but it must have been a series. I've not seen any others in it (if it is), but the one concerning The Hulk sucked me in like no other:
The End: The chronicles of the final days of earth's mightiest heroes and villains. Marvel comics and the creators who defend the characters tell the stories that were never meant to be told.
If you're a comic book fan/marvel fan/hulk fan then you gotta run, not walk, and get this one....
"All great things are simple & expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." --Churchill
My attention span and imagination is limited by the number of colours in comics..
Heh. [sarcasm]Most comics nowadays are done in full digital colour (usually with Photoshop), so if you consider an attention span of the full CMYK range to be short, you've got high standards indeed...[/sarcasm]
(grrr..stupid bloody slashcode doesn't allow entities...I can't use angle brackets, dammit)
I support the Center for Consumer Freedom
Good article in itself, but definitly flawed since it's not half of the story. You've got to look to birthground of comics, Europe, for the most interesting part of the story. Comics have been mainstream in Europe, especially in Belgium, France and The Netherlands, since long. Check out Lambiekhistory of Dutch comics and the The Comiclopedia.
that depends on what you're looking for in literature. if you're looking for great prose and a mastery of the english language, you're absolutely right. you're going to find that in umberto eco and toni morrison and not in a graphic novel. however, if, as the previous poster cited, you're interested in a complex, interesting story and character development, you can find that in the watchmen, transmetropolitan, or any of a number of other comics. graphic novels are almost totally a different artform than literature, and i don't think it's fair to compare the two.
-ninjaneer
Now, I know what you're saying "Fudgefactor7 has gone off the deep end...again," but hear me out.
A novel, let's say has 100 to 200 thousand words, and about 400 to 600 pages, all text. It's in a readable language (for instance, English) and has characters, development, a plot (one hopes), evokes moods (like anger or sadness or joy). It's a difficult thing to write a good novel.
By comparison, a graphic novel has to accomplish roughly the same thing in fewer pages (ususally there are 22 pages in a single issue, and usually no more than 20 issues in a miniseries, thereby making the number of pages no more than 440 pages, at the very most.) This, naturally, will not be all text, but mostly images with some sparse text and narration bubbles. The mood of the comic is depicted not by a paragraph of words, but by imagery. Choosing good words in a nvoel is hard, yes, but an image is worth, as they say, a thousand words--you have to get it right. And you have to get it right every page, every panel, every frame. In a written text, you can be given leniency in word choice, you can break the mood for narration purposes, or as a flashback--in a graphic novel, you can't ever break the mood or you lose the story and potentially the reader.
In a way, you have to deal with style and substance instead of style over substance, that a tratitional novel has as a restriction.
Plus to make a good graphic novel you have to have a good writer and a good artist. With a traditional novel, you need only a good writer (which sometimes is hard enough.) Combinations of good writer and good artist are magical when it comes together, and an abomination when it does not.
Finally, a traditional novel, if it sells 100000 copies is a pretty good deal, but that few comics can mean the death of an entire series--millions are printed and many more need to be sold just to make the publisher more happy. And on top of that, the creativity of a comic has to be repeatable throughout the entirety of the storyline, over months of work; a traditional novel only needs to be initially creative and not necessarily creative throughout. (How many of you read a novel that started great, then immediately became a rehash of some other, better, idea? I know I have. Sure, comics fall prey to this as well--as is evidenced by the amount of crud out there--but by far they're a more creative and vibrant force than the "real" authors in the bookstore.)
That's my 2-cents anyway...
Well... It all really depends on where you are reading comics. Am leaving in Ireland now. And here, it's impossible to get people to realize that comics is not just for kids, silly simple minded stuff. To be honest I failed systematicaly in trying to explain that. I am actually from France. In that place the main stream of comic sale is targeted to adults. Not always light easy-goi'n stuff, meaningless, efortless.
I strongly disagry with this idea it's necessarily easy. One example only. Read the Meta-Baron caste by Jorodovski and Jimenez. Read especially the out-of-serie issue of this saga. You will notice that comic scenario can be quite complex, deeply rooted into theories (psycho-analysis, social...). The drawings are nothiong fare from art. Read about the way Jimenez things about front pages as paintings before starting. The inspiration he got from samurai times, mixed with soap-opera style... I discovered in amsterdam he draws the nun after Brugel. I think it's quite interesting.
No. Sorry, no, comics can be rather demanding in understanding. About previous example, I'd say you probably need a 3 reads before you kind a get an overall picture. And this is just one example. Right now I think about others comics dealing with human being identity, genetics, cloning... I can't help thinking for some BD's (comics in french), as pieces of art, with the same insight that SF can have.
A bit the same way information is turned into something ridiculous on TV, comics can be as well. It's just up to us no to make crap out'a good things. Likely as well, if you'r brain-dead with not an inch of background stuff, you won't even see the richness, the references...
I don't know why in france, comics are considered as adult material as valid as any other books can be.
Maybe the article author is dumbed-down? Or else he's making a paper on sales, which is pretty irrelevent to what comics are.
Ciao ciao.
Is it that comics and graphic novels have "risen into mainstream culture" or is it more that the traditional fans of comics and graphic novels are "coming into their own" as a powerful force in our society?
I, for one, hope it's the latter (I've always enjoyed what my dad used to call "them funny books", but I never considered myself a part of the "mainstream" of society...of course, we geeks have been gaining in popularity of late...); it might mean the difference between being "ahead of our time" and it finally being "our time"!
(also: I, for one, welcome our new graphic-novel-reading overlords. Sorry, I just couldn't resist!)
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Here you go Slashdotters, my two cents. I'm sure you'll have some good criticisms of this letter as well:
Here's a review of Sacco's Palestine if anyone's interested.
"Comic books are what novels used to be -- an accessible, vernacular form with mass appeal ..."
I never realized that "accessable" and "vernacular" defined a novel. Amazing. As far as I can tell, oral stories, pictograms, comics, graphic novels, novels, poems, and other forms of storytelling have been around since the dawn of time.
This isn't a failure of "the American conception" of anything, it's a failure of Marvel Entertainment's marketing department. It's their job to explain to potential advertisers the target market for their product, and to solicit advertisements to which the readers of that comic are likely to respond. Either Marvel's marketing is screwing up and soliciting "8-year-olds" ads for comic books with a mature audience, or your perceptions that these plot lines are written for someone older than eight are inaccurate. It doesn't have anything to do with some sort of failure on the part of the American public.
All employees must wash hands before seeking equitable relief.
It is about time people like Bendis and Stan Lee get credit for creating the wonderful works. If I compare comics to the numerous trash magazines, I'll take a good comic any day.
Maus (which won the PULITZER prize) is one of the most powerful books EVER written about history's worst crime, The Holocaust.
Just because it's a "comic-book" does not mean it is "dumbed-down" or any less than a novel. Is "The Godfather," "Gone with the Wind," "Lord of the Rings" or "Shrek" any less of an art form because it is in motion picture form as opposed to the written word?
Maus is amazing. My dad got it for me in 7th grade and I have re-read it more than any other book is history.
Video is more likely to replace mainstream novels than comic books.
More people watch TV than read (sadly), and given another decade or two, we should all start having a very portable way to view video directly from the net.
I think comics may well be supplanted by home-brewed animation. A technically literate illustrator can create his own animated short in about the same amount of time as it once took to complete a monthly comic, using today's tools. As the tools evolve, it may become even easier. (Right now, programmers still don't seem to fully grasp what it is artists need from their tools. But more and more traditional artists are finally beginning to cross over into the digital medium, so I expect they will make themselves heard, and the tools...and the content... will improve.) We are also seeing more and more hybrid electronic formats, which look less like comics and more like animation all the time.
Forget dead trees. We will all be publishing ourselves electronically before long.
For those not very familiar with recent graphic novels (or have only heard of manga or the superhero genre) here's a great place to begin: Nowhere Girl.
I'd love to hear other Slashdotter recommendations!
Europe has a very long tradition of doing great comics, to say the least.
I think we should thank Heavy Metal magazine for bringing attention to quality European comics and graphic novels, even if what we see in Heavy Metal is strongly adult-oriented. I remember reading an English-translated Barbarella serial there, and it was vastly more interesting than the movie.
By the way, Disney comics published by their Disney Worldwide Publishing (Italia) division are extremely popular and well-regarded in its native Italy and in translated versions sold in France, Germany, Spain, the Netherlands and in the Scandinavian countries. If you can get a hand on Topolino, PK3 or W.i.t.c.h. (the original 60 page per issue Italian comic), you'll note just how superb European comics can be.
What really stinks about comics are the way the one genre of teenage masturbatory power fantasy has taken over everything. I quite enjoyed those as well, but if 97% of the marketplace recycles the same plot pieces then it gets really boring. Imagine how boring a world with 97% of one genre of music would be (rap/country/classical). Whatever appreciation you had for the genre will die in over-exposure, simplistic plot lines without end, and just plain ennui.
Looking at movie storyboards (and by extension movies), it's curious why they're so varied in content while comics come no where near that level of diversity. As much as I like Alan Moore's Watchmen and Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns, they aren't really groundbreaking. They use some variations of the suparearo genre that aren't typically allowed (aging characters, indifference to humanity, continuity ended).
There is a spark left with titles like In the Shadow of No Towers, 52 Timil Deeps, Larry Gonnick's Cartoon History series.
I just wish it didn't seem like the whole of mainstream comics was awash with variations on the 47 plotlines dealing with superpowers.
I think what really hurt comic books in the USA was Frederic Wertham's infamous book The Seduction of the Innocent. The fallout from that book came within a hair's breadth of killing off the comic industry altogether in the USA.
If we did not have the crusade against comics caused by that book, it's likely that comics in the USA would be a hugely viable medium right now, with the level of popularity that you would get in Europe, where comics have a long and distinguished history, especially in France, Belgium, Holland and Italy.
I think while it's true that reading books may have declined, it's a testament to the medium's durability that it has already survived movies, TV, the VCR and DVDs.
More importantly, however, I think that the internet has ensured that the written word (albeit S0mT!meZ badly written) will survive although maybe books as a medium will suffer despite this. I actually think this combination of factors (survival of books, resurgence of the importance of text for communication thanks to the internet) means that it's unlikely animation will ever completely replace static comics. (Has film replaced painting?)
More likely the revolution will be in the distribution and production of comics, while their form will still hold appeal for many. Anyway, just my thoughts.
I challenge the author of this article to read Nausicaa by Hayao Miyazaki and come back and say that graphic novels are dumbed down versions of novels. Nausicaa has the same feel and power as Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.
Some guy has actually assembled all the toys from the Acme Novelty Company comics!
http://www.niemworks.com/else/acmetoys.html
... that never mentions Cerebus the Aardvark when discussing graphic novels?
After "The Holocaust," I decided to insert "History's greatest crime" - just to see if some asshole (you) would pull an Israeli/Palestinian juxtapositon. Thanks for being so predictable.