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British Town Worried About WWII Ammo Ship Wreck
Radical Rad writes "For 60 years, 1.4 kilotons of unstable world war II bombs have lain in the rusting wreck of a US cargo ship half-submerged on a sandbank in the river Thames. If it explodes it will be one of the biggest non-nuclear explosions ever with predictions of a 3 kilometre high wall of mud, water, and metal fragments causing devastation to the nearby town of Sheerness in Kent." The BBC has more.
Glad I still had time to change the vacation plans!
After all this time that something is going to happen? Would some of the explosives now be inert?
It could be worse, it could be Monday.
Your Friend, O bin Laden.
Lets nuke it and sell the video on PPV.
i cant think of too many things designed these days that would survive 60+ years of being exposed to the elements, especially buried in a sand bank underwater... and then would still work close to specifications...
yep, they just dont build things the way they used to
Exploding things are cool. Every geek knows that.
hmmm "The government has been advised that doing nothing isn't really a sensible option any more."
... with something having a continuous risk, no matter how small, the chance of it exploding approaches one over time... it seems like something should have been done immediately... certainly not 60 years later. The only excuse I can think of is the hope that the technology would improve enough to find a safer way to safeguard the town, but surely no one thought this would happen quick enough to be worth the risk... this sounds like a bunch of people not willing to take a risk and just waiting for the next person to take on the responsibility... pah.
She said the last examination, in 2003, showed the site to be no more dangerous than in the past.
Alright, according to the article the bombs could detonate at any point spontaneously, but the risk hasn't changed from the past,
WANNAWIKI Wannawiki WannaWiki WANNAWIKI!
There are history nerds, too.
Who allowed this to happen? I mean, okay, the ship sank there, but why wasn't it cleaned up along with the millions of tons of other war junk from WWII that was disposed of?
This is a perfect example of the insurance dictum that 'claims do not go away'. You need to settle them (ie, fix the problem).
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Well they have a clusterfuck of a problem and are looking for solutions. Sounds like nerd business to me.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
Why did this get modded up? Obviously it involves modern technology because that's how this problem will (hopefully) be solved. This article easily could lead into some great posts about the various ways they might be able to learn whether these explosives are still a danger, and if they are, how they might be defused.
"How does this involve modern technology?"
uhm, how about that the problems of the past will require greater technology to resolve than it took to create them. (believe it was an einstein idea, not quoted verbatim, and dont care to look it up)
or more specifically, this bunch of bombs will require 2004 technology (or more) to safely remove items designed, built, and deployed between 1937 and 1941.
According to the linked BBC piece, the wave caused by a potential explosion would not be 3km high, it would be 16ft high. The New Scientist makes mention of a 3000m column of debris: that is material would reach a maximum height of 3km. This is entirely different from a tsunami-like wave baselessly alluded to by the Slashdot blurb.
As a participent/observer, I can attest that (ignoring some misc. issues), it blow'ed up real good! ;-)
Hulk SMASH Celiac Disease
cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
Sorry but "London Bridge" has been moved to the suburbs of Phoenix Arizona.
neither do I, not that badly...
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
Because it's "News for Nerds," not "News For Nerds Who Only Care About Things That Run On Silicon." It's the obsessives who think that computers are the be-all and end-all of everything that matters who give nerds in general a bad name, IMNSGDHO.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
In 1917 250 tons of explosive gun powder, benzol, and gun cotton loaded on the French ship Mont-Blanc exploded and devastated the town of Halifax, Nova Scotia. The ship was carrying supplies to help the war effort over seas. A fire resulting from a collision with a Norwegian ship as the Mont-Blanc was leaving the harbor to join up with a convoy was triggered the blast 28 minutes after the minor collision.
The death toll rose to about 1,600 in a city with a population near 50,000. An explosion 5 times as powerful in a town 5 times smaller could conceivably wipe it off the face of the earth. 12,000 homes were damaged or destroyed not only by the blast, but also the fires that followed.
Wikipedia has some more information on the Halifax explosion.
From the article, they worried about more on building/windows getting damaged, not injury. Could they take some time and figure out how to control an explosion to help get rid of the danger?
It could be worse, it could be Monday.
Did anybody else think of that episode of Gilligan's Island where Gilligan accidentally brings in a WWII mine while fishing, or was that just my own television warped mind?
If it's a U.S. cargo ship, are we responsible for cleaning up our mess?
Alternate solution #1 - make the guy who sunk it clean it up.
Alternate solution #2 -Make the guy who started the war clean it up.
There are UXO's from WWI and WWII all over Europe. From all sides. The get cleaned up as they are found, by whomever finds them. Hopefully cleaned up under control.
#text#
In 1970, government tests on the site showed a
blast would hurl a 1,000ft wide column of water,
mud, metal and munitions almost 10,000ft into
the air.
The shock of the blast would shatter almost
every window in Sheerness and damage buildings.
The explosion would also generate a 16ft high
wave that could sink a small craft.
#/text#
where did poster get the "with predictions of a 3 kilometre high wall of mud"????
"So. Let's see. It'll require super modern technology like "SCUBA" gear and big "Cranes", maybe even "Vehicles". Wow. I'm so excited I think I wet my pants."
nice reply, but
'SCUBA' wont be used for much of anything
go ahead and use 'Cranes' to lift 1.4 kilotons worth of TNT buried in a rusted out cargo ship in a sandbank underwater in a large river.
What kind of 'Vehicles' are you thinking of? 'Vehicles' is a pretty wide ranging group. Do you plan to use boats, or airplanes, or segways, or what?
As far as you being excited and wetting your pants, I will agree with you there. That is certainly not news for nerds. or stuff that matters.
Be a little more specific as far as to why you dont think this wont take a little engineering or some other nerdly skills.
By coincidence, I had just read the New Scientist's article about this, which is the source of the BBC article, but in much more depth and with many more details,
I suspect that the reason those articles do not cite a plan of action for defusing these explosives stems from the British governments indecision over whether they would rather protect millions upon millions in property or see a really really cool explosion.
Shameless lifted from Some random page about the Port of Chicago explosion.
On the evening of 17 July 1944, the empty merchant ship SS Quinault Victory was prepared for loading on her maiden voyage. The SS E.A. Bryan, another merchant ship, had just returned from her first voyage and was loading across the platform from Quinault Victory. The holds were packed with high explosive and incendiary bombs, depth charges, and ammunition - 4,606 tons of ammunition in all. There were sixteen rail cars on the pier with another 429 tons. Working in the area were 320 cargo handlers, crewmen and sailors.
At 10:18 p.m., a hollow ring and the sound of splintering wood erupted from the pier, followed by an explosion that ripped apart the night sky. Witnesses said that a brilliant white flash shot into the air, accompanied by a loud, sharp report. A column of smoke billowed from the pier, and fire glowed orange and yellow. Flashing like fireworks, smaller explosions went off in the cloud as it rose. Within six seconds, a deeper explosion erupted as the contents of the E.A. Bryan detonated in one massive explosion. The seismic shock wave was felt as far away as Boulder City, Nevada. The E.A. Bryan and the structures around the pier were completely disintegrated. A pillar of fire and smoke stretched over two miles into the sky above Port Chicago. The largest remaining pieces of the 7,200-ton ship were the size of a suitcase. A plane flying at 9,000 feet reported seeing chunks of white hot metal "as big as a house" flying past. The shattered Quinault Victory was spun into the air. Witnesses reported seeing a 200-foot column on which rode the bow of the ship, its mast still attached. Its remains crashed back into the bay 500 feet away.
All 320 men on duty that night were killed instantly. The blast smashed buildings and rail cars near the pier and damaged every building in Port Chicago. People on the base and in town were sent flying or were sprayed with splinters of glass and other debris. The air filled with the sharp cracks and dull thuds of smouldering metal and unexploded shells as they showered back to earth as far as two miles away. The blast caused damage 48 miles across the Bay in San Francisco.
LongTail SSH Brute Force analysis tool is here!
Too bad it's on the Thames. British people just don't have the same deep appreciation for blowing stuff up that Americans do. I suppose that's one of the reasons we revolted though...
Go here. For more specifics about the offshore explosion hazard click here.
(Note: site doesn't appear to work well in Firefox)
Call me old fashioned, but I like a dump to be as memorable as it is devastating - Bender
Grandparents set up us the bomb!
You know what you doing!
Click here for a free picture of an iPod!
What to do if over a kiloton of unstable explosives reside near your town:
Move.
You're welcome!
However, in France, the incidence of UXO is sufficiently high that local farmers plow up "items" on a regular basis. If they are small enough to be moved by an individual, they are taken out by hand and put in drop boxes by the road for ordnance techs to deal with. That's how common they are- farmers turned ordnance technicians.
While working on a test program with some British ordnance people, a story was related to me regarding buried UXO from WWII. Pipes were filled with nitroglycerin (NG), and buried perpendicular to landing strips in the UK. The idea was that they could be detonated in the event of invasion, rendering the landing strips useless. They were forgotten after WWII, and during construction some decades later, were re-discovered when a pipe containing NG was struck with a backhoe; I believe it killed the operator.
Making things worse during the remediation effort was that apartments had been built over part of the old runway. The Brits paid to bus the residents to the beach each day, and then bring them back in the afternoon after work for the day had halted. Evidently, they became quite cross when the work was finished a day early and everyone lined up for the buses, and the buses didn't come that day.
Anyway- the only thing worse than UXO is unexploded, toxic ordnance. Chemical warfare just hasn't been the same since the Chinese invented burning pepper upwind of the enemy, I'll tell ya.
where do I sign up?
I can see that place from out my window, and that's the first I've heard of this.
Typical.
http://www.lutins.org/nukes.html
scroll down to lost nukes... many in the USA
{ Pillar candles great for when the power fails and you cant see the keyboard..
Tell them that the ship is a haven for file-swappers.
A Shadeless room is a brighter room.
Sorry but "London Bridge" has been moved to the suburbs of Phoenix Arizona.
Mostly true, except that Lake Havasu City is about a half day drive from Phoenix.
http://www.havasuchamber.com/lbridge.htm
But WAIT!!!!you're telling me that a large abandoned ship full of explosives existed exposed to the outside world for sixty some years and it WASN'T looted by hordes of pyro teenagers? There must be something fundamentally wrong with the teenagers across that ocean. Methinks not enough good ol american made rednek would fix it right up.
GITTERDUN!!!!!!!!
-- Checking emails and kicking cheats `till the day I die.
It seems to me it would be good thing to develop a nano or microbial solution (don't they have mushrooms that eat High Explosives or was that diesel?).
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
In the US in 197x (no, I don't remember exactly) a munitions train loaded with bombs destined for Vietnam exploded in the railyard (in Roseville, CA). Bombs went off for hours, devastating the surrounding areas. I was a young kid in the area at the time. All I remember was, "Mommy, is that thunder?" Followed by "Get in the house!"
:).
Anyway. That's not the best part. A few years ago they were doing some construction in the area when a backhoe hit something... something metal.
Oops.
Well, they called out the bomb squad, who said 'fsck it!' and called the military, who decided to blow the thing in place. Many windows in the area gave their lives.
After that they used ground penetrating radar in the area and declared the area "cleared".
End of story? Nope.
A week later "tink"... a backhoe hit something... something metal. It seems that, and this is just priceless, when they did the ground penetrating radar passes, they only went for POSITIVE matches, i.e.: it had to look like a bomb on radar. Well, come on, the area is littered with shrapnel and train debris even 30 years later.
After much flogging, they did more radar and found not 1... not 2... but EIGHT 250-lbs bombs in the immediate area.
Anyway, I hear houses in the area can be had cheap
And they tend to have cool nicknames, too.
Like Stumpy, Peg-leg, Ol' one-eye...
Is it weird in here, or is it just me?
Actually it might be a blessing if it did happen.
If you want to know more about the dubious joys of living on the isle of Sheppey (on which Sheerness is located) then you can find out at the most excellent Isle of Sheppey tourists guide.
Humorous signatures are over-rated.
Anyway, I have seen the spot where the Montgomery lies buried; ferries between the UK and the Netherlands pass pretty close by. A veteran told me about the wreck and its history, and he pointed out that the houses on the shore would get wiped out if the wreck were to explode.
"What houses?" I wondered. Then I looked really hard, and it dawned on me that he meant the small specks I could barely see on the horizon.
It's been 15 years since I made that trip, and I forget most of the other things I saw, but that one has stayed with me alright...
While building on an old piece of Poole (Dorset, England) harbour they found a load of phosphorour barrels from WWII. Not sure if they were for grenades or flares, but storing Phosphorous next to the shore? Great idea!
Nice to see the mods getting it right: the suggestion that anyone would go to Sheerness for their holiday definitely deserves +5 Funny.
you could ask any question involving the US and 'responsible' and the answer will always be the same:
NOOOOOOOO
George Bush + Linux = "I will not let information get in the way of the fight against Windows"
> ... which we don't have to deal with here in the US
... it's easier to make the stuff if you don't have to deal with the consequences on your own soil.
Perhaps that's part of why the US _isn't_ one of the 152 countries that have signed the 1997 Mine Ban Treaty (effectively a landmine ban)
Yes. It would have been cool to see it.
Also the Trinity test was massivly cool to watch.
Same goes to the explosion of of mt.St. Helens.
I would give a part of my life to witness the santorini explosion or the Tsungaska event.
Or how the Gibraltar Barrier broke and the Mediterrean filled again...
Yes. People died on some of the events. But that doesnt make it any less impressive.
HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
Perhaps that's part of why the US _isn't_ one of the 152 countries that have signed the 1997 Mine Ban Treaty...
No. The reason is that the US uses landmines to defend the border between North Korea and South Korea. Its easy for those 152 countries to claim that landmines are unecessary when they don't have 30,000 men and women standing in the way of 1,000,000 mental communists.
In Soviet Army huge amounts of TNT were used to emulate nuclear explosion. Eyewitness of one such explosion told me that they exploded entire cargo train of TNT. It was cheaper and less dangerous than atomic bomb, but very realistic.
As far as defusing bombs goes, you can't beat MacGyver. In fact, he's been so bored of late that he's resorted to building bombs on aeroplanes (See: http://bbspot.com/News/2004/06/macgyver.html.) So I think he'd jump at the opportunity to defuse a few...
There are still severalcitier in Germany that have to be evacuated entirely or in parts every few months because soem construction worker found some 250kg or 500kg bomb again. That's just part of life and a small note int tha traffic radio.
now having a 1400t bomb in the middle of Berlin, that would be something. But actually we had that around 60 years ago in several German towns, sort of, so no big news either.
Just because I can imagine doing a hippopotamus, doesn't mean I'd like to do it.
A huge cache of munitions originally intended to be used as a giant army-stopping mine that had been left undisturbed since WW2 recently detonated without human intervention in France. Thankfully there were no witnesses particularly close at the time (Though this could only be determined by going door to door asking "Anyone missing?".
Just because it hasn't gone boom _yet_ doesn't mean that it's not going to tomorrow.
On the other hand, I really, really, really want to see a 3km tall wall of mud. (From a safe height and distance obviously.)
kartune85 : Incapable of reason, observation or learning. A kind of dim, drab, flightless parrot.
The last image on this page http://www.tuesdaynightclub.co.uk/Tour_01/Medplus2 .html e ry.html
shows what can be seen above water in context, including the proximity to the shipping channel.
A closer image can be found here http://www.gnometech.freeserve.co.uk/html/montgom
The top image says 'present' but lines etc. are still in place so I think it was taken some time ago http://www.ronangel.demon.co.uk/
A map showing the location http://www.submerged.co.uk/monty%205%20big.jpg
How the wreck lies http://www.submerged.co.uk/monty%204%20big.jpg
Only drawback I can think of is the inevitable construction vibrations may be enough to set the bombs off. That and getting rid of the caisson after the bombs were set off.
The idea's based on the old railroad dynamite cars. They were made with heavily reinforced floors and walls but the ceilings had just enough tin to keep the rain out. If the load blew, the blast took the path of least resistance and blew the tin roof sky high leaving the rest of the car intact.
(Sorry to post as AC - I didn't register yet.)
Cluster bombs based on a spring-loaded collection of small bomblets were used for delivering both HE and incendiary charges in WW2.
I live in a dutch town (Nijmegen) that was destroyed by US bombers, partially using cluster-bombs, in August 1944. Over 800 Dutch were killed and zero Germans. The attack was an accident when several aircraft could not find their primary target in the industrialised area of Germany. The resulting fires attracted other 'geographically-embarassed' aircraft....
I'm certainly glad I don't live in Sheerness though !
Ok i say we tow the thing to perl harbour, let them deal with it.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Hmmm you might actually be on to someting. Freezing it would tend to make it more stable but not absolutely safe. Just a bit safer. Perhaps safe enough to deal with. Using ROVs from a safe distance. The Isle of Sheppey is a sheite hole by all accounts and some urban renewal might not go unwelcomed by many in the U.K. as has been noted it many post to this article.
If you don't like what I write don't be a CS and mod it down. Refute it.
Yea I can't spell. So what is your point?
Althought the BBC article just stipulates 'TNT' as the explosive compound, if the bombs were for use by British forces, the chances are they would be Amatol.
Amatol is an increased yield mixture of TNT and ammonium nitrate which can range from an 80/20 to a 50/50 mix.
In its manufactured for it is supposedly relatively stable but severe impact can be a trigger.
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
From my following of the coronial inquiry into the blast:
The contractor found that the structural columns were not as described on the blueprints, but in fact contained a lot more steel. The cuting charges required for this type of steel were not available in the country and would need to be specially imported (you can't just stick HE on a ship or airplane). Since the contractor was working to a contract that included fairly strong late penalties, he improvised something that was quite a bit faster than the proper cutting charges. Unfortunately the sandbags that were placed around the charges did not prevent large chunks of shrapnel from being launched. A young girl (12 or so) was struck by a piece and killed.
I went to watch the blast, but from a much longer distance than most other folk (and I made sure there was a large hill between me and the base of the hospital). I was surprised at how close people were, and I was also surprised that more people were not injured.
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
I guess everyone here in the US has forgotten about the 2 "lost" nuclear bombs that are "somewhere" lost in the mud in a marsh off the coast of savanna georgia!?!?!?!?!i n615978.shtml
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/06/tech/ma
It's better to be hated for who you are, than be loved for who you're not.
The parent has the amount of explosives wrong. ~2000 tons of TNT and another ~2000 tons of other explosives.
Too bad you couldn't spell "Iraq" properly.
The Baker Shot which was 20 kilotons only produced a "wall" of water about 60 meters high at ground zero.
This is a really stupid, and over exaggerated article.
TNT 226,797 kg
... 544 Tons
e .p hp?p9
t ml
Wet picric acid 1,602,519 kg
Dry picric acid 544,311 kg
Guncotton[?] 56,301 kg
Benzol 223,188 kg
Since 1000 KG is about 1 ton
TNT 226 Tons
Wet Picric Acid 1602 Tons
Dry
Guncotton (nitrate of cellulose) 56 Tons
Benzol 223 Tons
Or 2651 Tons of explosives, very approx.
Of course TNT is not as powerful then the others listed but it was one hell of a blast. They did a survey of the harbour that proved that the long standing story that a crater existed in the harbour was not true.
http://gsca.nrcan.gc.ca/pubprod/of3154/showimg_
Other Links
http://museum.gov.ns.ca/mma/AtoZ/halexpl.h
Halfiax Explosion Municipal Information Site. CBC Halifax Explosion Info Site.
....
From the first article:
"Around eight that morning, the Belgian relief ship Imo left its mooring in Bedford Basin and headed for open sea. At about the same time, the French ship Mont Blanc was heading up the harbour to moor, awaiting a convoy to accompany her across the Atlantic. A convoy was essential; this small, barely seaworthy vessel was carrying a full cargo of explosives. Stored in the holds, or simply stacked on deck, were 35 tons of benzol, 300 rounds of ammunition, 10 tons of gun cotton, 2,300 tons of picric acid (used in explosives), and 400,000 pounds of TNT."
"The Mont Blanc drifted by a Halifax pier, brushing it and setting it ablaze. Members of the Halifax Fire Department responded quickly, and were positioning their engine up to the nearest hydrant when the Mont Blanc disintegrated in a blinding white flash, creating the biggest man-made explosion before the nuclear age. It was 9:05am.
Over 1,900 people were killed immediately; within a year the figure had climbed well over 2,000. Around 9,000 more were injured, many permanently; 325 acres, almost all of north-end Halifax, were destroyed.
Much of what was not immediately levelled burned to the ground, aided by winter stockpiles of coal in cellars. As for the Mont Blanc, all 3,000 tons of her were shattered into little pieces that were blasted far and wide. The barrel of one of her cannons landed three and a half miles away; part of her anchor shank, weighing over half a ton, flew two miles in the opposite direction. Windows shattered 50 miles away, and the shock wave was even felt in Sydney, Cape Breton, 270 miles to the north-east."
Weather this is done by engineers/sappers, artillery fire, or pointing a machine gun into the backs of prisoners and telling them to run en masse over certain areas, or vehicles with the appropriate mechanism to detonate mines safely (ie chains and extremely thick tractor treads).
You're talking about using up lots of prisoners, and vehicles aren't practical except for clearning road-sized passages.
The whole point of a minefield is to really slow down the enemy. If you send 1000 prisoners into a field, one will trip a mine, which will probably kill at least a few dozen of them (many launch grenades high into the air), and the mine 10 feet away will still be active. How do you get all those prisoners to the border in the first place.
What a minefield does is make your enemy either put millions of people on the border simply so that they can absorb HUGE losses, or use mineclearing techniques, which funnel their troops through narrow corridors which can be more easily defended.
You can't park millions of troops on a border for years at a time - it costs a fortune and they aren't occupied in useful work. So, if the N Koreans started moving that many troops to the border, the US would quickly reinforce its lines.
Also, if you send prisoners across the minefields, they won't set off anti-tank mines - just anti-personnel mines. So at best the enemy can get lots of poorly-armed and unsupported troops over the border. That isn't much use in a war - you need a well-reinforced army with armored support to be effective.
Minefields are very effective. They're basically like $10 smart-bombs - every detonation is a perfect hit. They force the enemy to slow down, buying you time to reinforce.
And the mines that the US uses are well mapped, and are designed to disable themselves after some amount of time. I'm sure this isn't perfect, but there are no perfect solutions when you have a country ruled by a dictator on your border. The normal rules of diplomacy don't really apply - the behavior of a single person is not that easy to control...
Trust me, the world would be a nicer place without the Isle of Sheppy! It's aweful! It doesn't have beachs or sea it has mud! Aethiests could work on the water there! It's a nasty horrible, unpleasant place, with no charming features at all, a website called http://www.sheppyscum.com summed it up brialliantly! (pity thse site is gone now) And sadly my father is from their and my gransparents and family are STILL there .. which means I have to visit! I even ran away to New Zealand to get as far away as possible!
Now I feel unclean after thinking about Sheppy and Sheerness-on-Sea(mud), need to go get drunk now to forget it. ;-)
Searching Google Images, I found this photo of the wreck:
e ry.html
http://www.gnometech.freeserve.co.uk/html/montgom
Not the greatest in quality (taken in 1990), but still, it's nice to see. The BBC article should have included a photo of it. Grrr!
so all we need is, oh say a round thousand, of Arizona State Mine Inspectors. Train them as divers, and problem solved!