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Windows XP To Get Longhorn Technologies
SilentChris writes "According to CNet, Microsoft is revising their plan for Longhorn. In addition to scaling back WinFS, they will also have separate releases of Avalon (the new graphical system) and Indigo (a new network architecture) for Windows XP and 2003. If most of the updates will be available for current versions of Windows, what is the incentive to upgrade?"
Silly Chris, It'll introduce more bugs and keep you more tightly bound than ever to Microsoft Update, because you'll have so much time and energy vested in keeping your system going you'll be terrified of switching -- I think it's something like the Stockholm Syndrome. Maybe it should have it's own name: Redmond Syndrome.
Further, you'll probably find everything doesn't work as well with your current video card and networking so you'll have to buy *NEW* stuff from vendors -- stuff endorsed by Microsoft as being up to snuff with their shell-game specifications.
As for Longhorn, you'll still buy it like all the other cattle (Ha! Longhorn! Cattle! Now I see the connection!) when it comes out, by the way, I expect the successor to Longhorn to be Bighorn (Guess the species! ;-)
Now please excuse me while I bash my head against the wall for having made sport of my Sith Master, Bill in a prior post.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
"[W]hat is the incentive to upgrade?"
I want to know that too. I'm running Win98SE without any trouble. Why should I upgrade to Longhorn?
"They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
I have changed my plans. Pray I do not alter them any further.
-MSFT
I think that they will MOST certainly have other products ot unveil at the same time. They wouldn't just release ALL their new code for an OS, thats just not like thair business model.
1st...?
"If it moves, shoot it till it stops moving" -Tex, Brute Force
Is that, like XP, MS will pay off application developers to cause their apps to break in previous versions. A great example of this is with Adobe, who's latest video offerings only work on XP, forcing me to upgrade.
In the beginning the universe was created. This made a lot of people very angry and is widely considered as a bad move.
Wwell it seems longhon keeps falling behind schedule, and Microsoft keeps cutting back features to keep the same release date. Maybe Longhorn will be another Windows Me, just something to hold everyone over until they get another release out.
If most of the updates will be available for current versions of Windows, what is the incentive to upgrade?"
That it will WORK!
Why does there need to be an incentive to upgrade? People allways complain that Microsoft "forces" them to upgrade (not that they ever have in my opinion), shouldn't we all be happy that thats not going to be the case (assumming that these two things are the only diference between XP and Longhorn, not that they are)?
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
I didn't know about Avalon, but Microsoft has said for quite a while they were going to be releasing Indigo for platforms other than Longhorn. Indigo is a technology that will be replacing .NET remoting and it allows for secure, reliable and transactional communication between .NET applications. It only made sense to have a version available for other versions of Windows to make sure that applications could communicate.
Forget the whales - save the babies.
What the the reason to upgrade to ME from 98? What was the reason to upgrade to XP from 2000? People like upgrades. Upgrades, no matter how small, bring features. Upgrades have the appearance of better quality and more "on-the-edge."
Plus, even if two technologies get ported, Longhorn is supposed to be a "unified" desktop with Internet, mail, etc. This is one major reason to upgrade for the tech-newbies and possibly the tech-geeks.
You upgrade because DirectX or XNA, or whatever the hell they call the next graphics subsystem used by games will only be available on Longhorn. Why else would you upgrade?
---
Programming is like sex... Make one mistake and support it the rest of your life.
giving props to his pals at GNAA
Who modded this informative?
"They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
Errr... .
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
I think I'll stick with my PowerBook if I want a fancy OpenGL accelerated GUI. At least Apple didn't shoehorn it onto OS 9.
p.s. someone help me, please! I've chipped in to the community. You should too. To sweeten the deal, I do have two gmail invites.
"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." -- Dark Helmet
A few months after Longhorn comes out, all these XP features will break, legally if not logically, and you'll have to buy Longhorn anyway. How's that for an incentive?
"These people look deep within my soul and assign me a number based on the order in which I joined" --Homer re:
Blood spurt gush!
Seriously, Apple is adding features that were supposed to be in Longhorn into Tiger and it will be available early in 2005. Meanwhile MS is removing those same features just so they can hit a 2006 launch date. Huh?
The funniest bit was all my Windows collegues telling me about how fantastic Longhorn was going to be and how it would allow MS users to overtake the Mac.....
Guess not!
"I have the attention span of a strobe lit goldfish, please get to the point quickly!"
Because if you have to upgrade to Longhorn at an exhorbitant cost in both software and IT costs to handle the installation in your corp... Maybe you'd just prefer to "upgrade" to Linux...
Now we're just back to getting "free" features...
Microsoft will secretly turn Windows XP SP3 into subscription based software, which will conviently expire just when Longhorn comes out. The pricing at that point?
Windows Longhorn - $200 Extension for Windows XP - $250
C'mon, this is the man credited with saying (on more than one accasion I might add):
"Bwahahahahahaha. Fools! I'll destroy them all!
Norman Cook's Ode to Sl
If most of the updates will be available for current versions of Windows, what is the incentive to upgrade?
Microsoft was once interested in becoming a subscription-based retailer. Perhaps you will be capable of upgrading Windows XP by using an extension to Windows Update, not unlike certain distributions of Linux and other Unix-like operating systems. Such a maneuver would enable them to combat the "pseudo-instant availability" of many alternative operating systems.
Do you like German cars?
What was the incentive to upgrade from Windows 2000 to XP*. Let's see, we had:
- Rearranged control panel
- A new theme
- Ummm...the search puppy?
The die-hard fans will upgrade because it's the latest and greatest, everyone else will get it with their next computer, and the corporate world will wait 3 years and then take the plunge.
This is still a blow to Microsoft, but not a major one. Maybe another baby step away from the OS monoculture.
*I know there was more incentive to upgrade from Windows ME, but I'm sure many a 2000 user switched over as well.
When they can't improve the engine, just add more chrome and offer new colors.
I've been led to believe by many here on /. that Microsoft forces me to upgrade. I don't have a choice, nor does Microsoft need to create incentives for people to upgrade, just brandish the gun and quite those who ask questions. Am I now to believe that that position, promoted by so many on /., including the editors, was wrong? Impossible.
Microsoft is adding these features to Windows XP and Windows 2003 server in order to give developers a reason to use these technologies. So they can use Avalon and Indigo in their applications and still have people on older OS's be able to use their applications. Much like how .NET was backported to Windows 98. Developers wouldn't develop applications in .NET if they knew that only a small percentage of Windows users would be able to use it.
It's a win-win IMHO, Windows developers get to use new features and develop application using more intuitive and powerful tools and Microsoft gets a larger application base for Longhorn.
-- D3X
Besides Avalon and WinFS, the core OS is supposed to be all-new, so that we can get things like real-time multimedia playback (e.g. guaranteed minimum CPU time for a process). So we still need Longhorn even if we get Avalon and Indigo on XP!
If Avalon and Indigo is the new ways of displaying and programming applications. As a company why would I start porting my apps to it if it won't be used until 2006! If I have a pratical application now, then when 2006 comes out a lot of "native" apps .
I suppose they do this so that developers can deploy their new apps (based on Avalon and Indigo) on the XP platform as well. It makes sense - and will give a more rapid transistion. (Instead of waiting for Longhorn to get the marketshare needed to have custom Avalon/Indigo-apps written for it).
;)
But what do I know?
(The color theme for it.slashdot.org needs a revision btw)
If most of the updates will be available for current versions of Windows, what is the incentive to upgrade?
Remember the product activation in XP? All MS has to do is end-of-life XP and you can't re-install it because MS won't authorize it. You'll be fine with your current system until you need to do a re-install, then you'll buy the next version even though it offers you nothing new and you know you'll have the same problem in another 3-4 years.
so you'll need 2xitanium and 4gigs of ram to run XP after the upgrades..
I'd comment something funny here
unless I was so drunk
-1 offtopic
There are no atheists when recovering from tape backup.
I used the search feature today on XP looking for a word that was riddled in a whack of files ... and XP couldn't find them.
I want a better dog!
...because then you'll have all the wonderful benefits of Palladium to go with all the power and security already inherent in XP. ;)
If Longhorn has the feature to remove the puke yellow color from the IT section, I'll sure buy it!
/. change that!
Cmon
perception is reality
Native 64-bit support? XAML?
"Sorry Im not more user-friendly."
When Windows 98 came out, PC magazine or some other Ziff Davis publication ran a pretty good guide Assemble Win98 for free where they basically gave pointers to different place on Microsoft Web site, where one could download the enhancement incorporated into 98. Naturally the core files were not there, but new version of IE, ActiveDesktop and other technologies were all available through a separate download. Of course, no such thing as automatic WindowsUpdate back then, so few customers knew or cared to snith around microsoft.com/downloads.
The result? Win98 became the best-selling OS ever, as most of the people pretty much thought paying $80-90 for an OS that was going to last them 3 years or so would be no big deal.
So new MediumHorn with proper marketing and few pizzazz added will be just as welcome as Win98.
...because MS and Adobe would work together just to screw you over.
Chances are the Adobe app is making use of features _new_ to XP. So, what you are essentially bitching about is that these new features were not back ported to whatever previous version of MS OS you used.
And of course, if MS did back port these new features, you'd be bitching how MS is always adding new fangled features to released version of OS that do nothing but add bugs, insecurity, and instability.
Just admit there is nothing MS could ever do to appease you, and quit fucking using their software. That's why god gave you Linux.
-Malakai
A Dragon Lives in my Garage
What else to waste your way-to-expensive processor and buckloads of RAM onto? Geeks will always upgrade (M$ geeks anyway. Yes they exist, I heard.)
StarTrek.org Free Webmail
What the hell?! That's SLASHDOT in the screenshot!
*cough* *sputter* But you can't show that to end users!!!
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
This is a smart move. First they schedule the release way ahead in the future, so the competition thinks they have plenty of time. Then, they release the new futures early, so that they are first to market. By the time Longwait is released, there will be plenty of application support already. In the meantime, the hype their technologies sky high so people will forget about looking for alternatives, let alone implement them. Wow, respect.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
"So I'm going to have to upgrade to a 5GHz Pentium IV so XP runs efficiently?"
That is certainly the prayer of Dell, Gateway, HP, and everyone else selling HARDWARE. Are you still wondering WHY all of these vendors ain't in a rush to make Linux their OS of choice???????
99% of all questions in this world have the same answer.. MONEY.
this is not about an incentive or a question of upgrading or not upgrading ... M$ is doing this because their bloated Longhorn will be out much later then anticipated ... And they are beginning to slowly feel their user's possible loss of "faithfulness" ... this is all just a marketing game to make the wait for Longhorn seem like a short while. But us /.ers know that XP was released in 2001 and Longhorn won't be out before the end of 2006. ...
Did any other "upgrade" (except for Duke Nukem Forever of course) take so long to develop?
I think this is the right time for GNU/Linux to strike hard at the Ms desktop user base
Never underestimate the power of idiots in large groups
MONEY
I like it!
Norman Cook's Ode to Sl
who really upgrades anyways, pre-installs is their bread and butter with regards to keeping their OS monopoly rolling. What is interesting is that they expect existing computers, running their current OS's, will be able to run the updates from their next OS. THIS IS NEW for the most part. Usually, they shoved so much kludge into the next OS that only current hardware would/could run the OS.
So, if they can't force hardware upgrades then they will be slowing down sales of their future OS. This isn't typical for Microsoft and I don't expect this to happen. Or atleast they most likely won't be upgrading XP or 2003 to the 2007 version. Just small bits and pieces.
gawd, remember when they wouldn't upgrade USB support into Win95? OEMs were probably hammered into only pre-loading Win98 with that incredible USB support.
Trust me, Microsoft will not do anything at the expense of OS uptake( not upgrade ). XP won't get much useful stuff. that'll only be in 2007.
IMHO
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
... but the joy of hacking the latest Microsoft license registration procedure.
My best sig is this one.
Here is the problem with going with M$. I have no doubts that there will be serious compatability issues with older versions of Windows Servers as these new technologies come down the line. The incentive is that in order to make use of the functionality of the new systems, one must upgrade the backend servers.
Do most people really need all the features of XP (other than increased stability)? What about the next version? What new and exciting features can we not live without?
The incentives to upgrade will be not task oriented features, but rather to fix such things as "Security" and such (breaking all sorts of M$'s own conventions in the process) making it necissary at some point.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Longhorn has been pushed back THAT far, eh?
Longhorn will automatically render the Slashdot IT page in a better colour. It might even get people to switch from Linux to Windows.
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
You think Longhorn will work? You really should see a psychiatrist about those delusions...
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
These updates will be handed out a' la Windows 98 SE style. You'll have to buy an upgrade edition to apply to your XP for the low, LOW! price of $379.85. It will inevitably gork up your registry, good portions of the file system will be damaged by the install process, you'll suffer irrepairable data loss, and the disclaimer in the EULA will have even more ridiculous terms than the fact that you can't get more than $5 or the price of the software if you decide to sue, whichever is least.
*THEN*, after about a year or 18 months of massive amounts of bugfix patches, service packs and other silly nonsense, they will release Shoehorn, the bastard stepchild of Windows XP SE and Longhorn's ugly second cousin OS that's only been seen on a production server somwhere in the MS complex in Redmond. That will cost you your first child, rights to half the real property you own, and $1,999.
This, my friends, is *INNOVATION*!! Yes sir, sign me *RIGHT UP*!
Cupertino should take notice. Tiger-only apps are going to be a bitch to sell to people with a $129 add-on.
While I realize that the majority of the /. crowd is from the UNIX world, I also realize that it would be more professional to replace the broken window graphic with something more appropriate.
The technologies coming out of Microsoft might not be as innovative as they claim it to be, but it's certainly groundbreaking for a company with such magnitude as Microsoft to consent to the superiority of researched technologies.
Longhorn is going to include some exciting new technologies such as Avalon, WinFS, Indigo, and most importantly their new Monad (you really must research this, as it could do for Longhorn what BASIC did for Microsoft's first operating systems). While these are just codenames for abstract ideas (and possibly just buzzwords) it will certainly be exciting to see some of these things deployed.
This is the longest Microsoft has ever waited to release an OS. Windows 95 to Windows 98 took only 3 years, as the names describe. Windows Longhorn looks as if it will take up to 7 years. What can be done in seven years' time with hundreds of emplyees? Amazing stuff.
Linux has some serious issues. I'm not going to argue how many compared to Windows, because that argument would be futile. Instead I will offer my "credibility" as an unbiased commentator:
I'm 17 and have been using Linux since 2001 after getting my first computer sometime in '98. It didn't take long for me to fall in love with it. Since then, I've been using Debian GNU/Linux for the past few years, and enjoy it's breadth of developer friendly software. I've used FreeBSD, and plan to play around with BSD's like OpenBSD, DragonFlyBSD, and even get a Mac G5. I also plan to make my own Linux from Scratch, an embedded uClinux distro with BusyBox, and other fun things like that; eventually working my way up to hacking on the Linux kernel. I would also enjoy testing out Hurd, as well.
However, if what's coming out of Microsoft is as developer friendly as advertised to be (what really IS these days anyways, but that's not for me to predict) then Linux might have a problem. If people are really going to be able to hack up some XML applicaton like what's hyped, there might be some serious problems, no matter how many Mono's or GNU DotNETs there are.
Until the community stops getting cocky and starts getting worried, nothing will ever go anywhere. Being afraid is a good thing(tm), because it gets people working harder.
So, again, I emplore somebody to please change the graphic to more accurately represent what we have to fear this new century.
-Devin Torres
Real programmers can write assembly code in any language. -- Larry Wall
I didn't know there was any incentive to do anything in the Windoh's world..
The gates in my computer are AND, OR and NOT; they are not Bill.
Well of course there will be many reasons to upgrade. The new version of Microsoft Office, RRG Edition(Really Really Good), that offers a two-fold increase in the time it takes to start the apps and 25% more crashes, will only be available for Longhorn. And to "insure security"(maybe the security of Billy's market share?) the Longhorn Desktop OS will be the only desktop OS that will be allowed to work with the Longhorn Server windows-domains. But wait! For a limited time only, you'll get a a FREE Billy Gates bobble head toy when you order Windows Longhorn. :P
Every time you post an article on Slashdot, I kill a server. Think of the servers!
If con is the opposite of pro, is congress the opposite of progress?
On a few web pages I'm credited with the creation of that line (or close to it).
I however stole it in 1995...
Just some trivia. ("Informative" right?)
Get your Unix fortune now!
Will Microsoft use activation to force me to upgrade? In other words, will Microsoft ever stop giving out activation codes for any of the products that require activation?
No, Microsoft will not use activation as a tool to force people to upgrade. Activation is merely an anti-piracy tool, nothing else.
Microsoft will also support the activation of Windows XP throughout its life and will likely provide an update that turns activation off at the end of the product's lifecycle so users would no longer be required to activate the product.
I know this line has been beat to death, but I'll tell you the incentive...
Being the coolest guy on the block running a cracked copy you got from Gnutella or some other P2P network. You are cool if you install it 3 days before release in my 'hood.
Get your Unix fortune now!
If most of the updates will be available for current versions of Windows, what is the incentive to upgrade?
Uh, for the rest of the updates?
John Kerry is a Joke!
There never was a Longhorn kernel. It was always going to be NT6.0.
It will still be NT6.0, but with less userspace stuff on top.
"Taligent is still pure vapor. Maybe they'll be the last who jumps up on Openstep... "
If you have applications you're writing to new frameworks, those frameworks have to be available before you can sell those applications.
They're not going to hold back 80% of the company for 20% of it.
They're not scaling back WinFS. There's no where in the article it even states this. All it says is that it will be available in beta form upon the client release.
For some reason, Slashdot has trouble reporting anything accurately on WinfS. Anyone remember the previous case where Microsoft decided not to include some of the more esoteric features (like some networking functions). Slashdot, of course, picked it up and reported it as "WinFS cancelled," and other tech news sites picked it up. For months, people on Slashdot continued to refer to WinFS as cancelled, when they were blissfully ignorant to the fact it wasn't. Sigh. All it takes is a little basic research first.
I'm starting to think that Longhorn might suffer the same fate as Apple's mid-90s Copland project. They create enormous hype for it, give developers plenty of betas and do lots of previews, but it never ends up materializing. And then, the best features from it get rolled into their existing operating system (Copland -> Mac OS 8, Longhorn -> Windows XP) and it gets canned. Then, years later, they realize that they really should have completed the objectives of the project because their existing system is getting old and stale.
Of course there probably won't be so many parallels, but I do suspect that Longhorn will end up vaporizing and the most-demanded features and the interface will be integrated into the existing platform.
Signature.
Sun is doing this right now with Solaris 9.... 10.
"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
You upgrade because Longhorn will replace cruddy Win32 with sleek .NET, will be entirely DirectX-accelerated, and will sport a whole new interface codenamed Aero Glass. Video drivers will be pushed into userspace (finally), and various other major core architecture changes will take place.
Note that the features in this article being made available for Windows XP are APIs. Those can be easily backported. Longhorn itself, however, is a major architectural change.
Windows 2000 was the NT4 successor geared toward corporate users.
I don't know if you noticed, but XP was geared toward consumers. It got people off of 9x kernels, and for that I am eternally grateful! Not to mention System Restore, increased application compatibility, and various other minor features.
Microsoft has just released their much anticipated hands-free cordless mouse. Warning, it may hurt a little at first.
What are you attempting to say? That XP SP1 and SP2 cost money? That W2K sp1-4 cost money? That NT4 SP1-6 cost money? I don't get what you're saying.
;)
And SP1 broke XP machines? I've never heard of that, and I've upgraded around 20 AND read slashdot regularly
Jeez, if I had mod points I would mod you "unintelligible"
Okay, so I know that is the kind of thing that the FLOSS zealots say all the time. But it is so obviously true in this case.
MS is betting the company on Longhorn. No really. Their two major revenue streams, and the foundation of the modern MS is Windows and Office. Windows is a twisty maze of backwards compatibility all alike to keep both users and developers favorable to the platform. Office is packed full of enterprise features that Joe User never needs because Joe CEO does.
MS down to it's ancient roots with custom programming languages and tools, is firmly in the realm of the rich client. Linux and BSD and OS X (and SkyOS and BeOS, and Syllable and . . . ) are becoming more prevalent because suddenly fully half of a users apps are portable! No not Office or Photoshop, but Yahoo and Google. Thin clients!
The gigahertz war between AMD and Intel last left MS with a glut of processing power and no software capable of using it. Once MS caught up with the processor, they drove home the power of the rich client, and reestablished their platform as the primary environment for building them.
It's happened again. Processor power is far beyond what 90% of the increasingly computer literate public needs, just like when x86 procs hit 1Ghz. But this time there is a growing base of truly alternative development and user platforms (not just OS/2 and MacOS 8, but the various POSIX and embedded platforms) while on the other side, the thin client has a solid hold in several key applications (email, dictionaries, encyclopedias, hell, even video games).
MS wants to emulate the success of Windows 95. They want to bring an enterprise technology to the masses (NT, XP was really just a dry run for that), show users that there is a reason for all this new hardware, and reestablish themselves as THE application development environment for rich clients. It's not just getting users to upgrade (though that would make them super happy) its getting developers to use the technology.
And they've realized that they can't bet on a huge upgrade kick to make Avalon and Indigo dominant, XP taught and continues to teach them that. So bringing these heavy investment technologies to a wider audience is the only way that MS can continue to be the largest software company in the world, and see any kind of rapid return on Longorn. If they loose this battle, they become the desktop version of Sun Microsystems. A giant, who still does good work, and whose technologies still have some milage, but ultimately in it's final days
I don't think costing a lot is what makes something a flagship product. If that were the case, I could just as easily say that SQL Server must be Microsoft's flagship.
I'd rather be lucky than good.
The name of Longhorn is pretty easy to track if you look at the previous version of Windows (Whistler) and the blue-sky version of Windows (Blackcomb), and know a bit about the Pacific Northwest (specifically, the Whistler ski resort up in Canada). At the Whistler resort, there are two mountains, Whistler and Blackcomb. Between the lifts for the two mountains, there is a tavern called Longhorn. The initial plan for Windows was supposed to have Longhorn be a small release between XP (Whistler) and Blackcomb, with Blackcomb coming around 2006 or 2007. Thus, Longhorn, because it's a stop on your way from Whistler to Blackcomb. Somewhere along the line, Longhorn became a much more prominant release, so the codename is no longer as appropriate, but that's the root of the name.
Paul Thurrott's SuperSite for Windows has an entry in the XP FAQ (near the top, scroll down about 1/5th of the page) and in the Longhorn FAQ (near the bottom) that mention this in lesser detail, though he gets the location of Longhorn wrong. The Garibaldi Lift Co. is the tavern at the base of Whistler. Quite a nice little tavern, too, if you've got friends who are into skiing or mountain biking and you're not.
Microsoft had been saying that Avalon (and XAML) would not be backported, prior to this. Companies like Xamlon made a version of XAML that works today, but it's not compatible enough with Microsoft's version.
Apple's already got it's next generation GUI and graphical layer, ala Avalon... and it's had it in various incarnations for the past three years.
:)
So even if Avalon comes out, say, in 2005, that means the competition, Apple, has implemented it for 4 years already. I do know Avalon and Quartz aren't the same in letter, but they are the same in spirit, being 3d accelerated hardware based composition and rendering engines.
As for other technologies... we'll see how fast Apple's Tiger comes out, and the next releases, regarding WinFS and other technologies
Linux just sits there happily re-implementing the best of all worlds.
GPL Deconstructed
this reminds me of macos copeland which never came out, but it's technologies got consistently grafted onto systems 8 - 9 for years.
"Let him go, Ralph. He knows what he's doing." --Otto Mann (simpsons)
Think about it: if Longhorn is a major break from Win2k3/WinXP, and products written for Longhorn (using Avalon, XAML, Indigo features, taking advantage of WinFS, etc.) won't run on these older technologies, what software company in its right mind would write code using said technologies? NONE.
However, if software companies could write code that utilizes these new features, and these new features would also work on older, still in-use OSes, then said technologies become an option for a software company.
This move makes sense: without it, Longhorn would have a next to impossible time gaining market traction, IMO.
I could not justify my existence if I were a turkey farmer. Would I terminate myself? Undoubtably, yes.
I think it's an oversight at this point. Besides you can set auto update to download and ask you before installing any updates.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Silly rabbit, upgrades are for other OS's. You see, the term "upgrade" doesn't really fit into the subscription based model that MS has been alluding to. You'll "subscribe" to the windows platform after purchasing your new PC in 2006 and you'll continue to pay and you'll continue to receive things like winFS, avalon, indigo and whatever else they think up. the fact that MS is stating that they will be available as updates indicates such a strategy. the problem however... is microsoft's "it's done when it's done" philosophy. this philosophy doesn't work well for people who pay money on a recurring basis to get new and exciting features. They, and most software companies seem to have a history of delayed software releases.
"Tommorows bugs today."
It's quite obvious why MS would do this. It's basically the same reason why they let piracy run rampantly and unhindered for so many years, and then suddenly started making stronger efforts to get people authorized via the BSA.
Quite simply, they want people on their new technology, and want to force people - as a society - to upgrade.
How will they do this? The same way they've done it in the past. Want to run Office 2000? Great, you'll "have to" upgrade to Windows 2000 as well, because it's unstable under Windows 98. Want to be able to read that document you just got from a friend? You need to upgrade to Office 2003.
Now, how do those situations translate to the current situation? In much the same way they're taking over the video game market with the Xbox, MSN Messenger, and DirectX: make it beneficial to the early adopters, get them hooked, and then draw people in via social networking.
DirectX started out as a free 'add on' - Direct3D. It wasn't used by much, because it sucked. Then people started writing games using it, and it matured to what we have today. People wanted those games, so they got them, regardless of what they were based on. I suspect this will happen with the new "longhorn" technologies: people will install the frameworks "for the hell of it", install applications using those frameworks, and friends will see the new stuff and desire it. Then they'll follow suit, so on and so forth...
In the case of the Xbox, they sold/sell a decent contender at much below production costs to try and get significant market share. They also bought out as many game providers as possible. This relates to the longhorn tech because MS is basically giving away the components - for now. In the future (aka, the Xbox2, or lonhorn itself), there will be a premium for the better products (better graphics/continued support or better stability, etc.) because they've established a market demand for those products by giving them away for free.
In essence, it seems to me like MS is trying to turn around a potentially harmful situation (mass migration due to a huge, sudden platform change) into a positive one for them. Good for them. This has a lot of potential to really harm Linux in many ways.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
What is easy to do is turn on automatic update so Microsoft can install and run anything they want on my machines anytime they want. No, thanks.
/., why don't you check your facts first? Aparently you missed options 2-4.
You're kidding right? The very first time automatic update tries to turn on, it asks you if you want to:
1. Have it download and install updates automatically (great for grandma)
2. Just download, but ask me before installing
3. Notify me, but don't download or install anything.
4. Totally turn off automatic updates
Before you join the, "windows sucks no matter what" group on
If it gave you a code like M$ can then it'd be a keygen. Perhaps activation is cryptographically secure and it's practically impossible to generate the code because you'd need Microsoft's private key. I don't know if it's secure though, and for example there is an activation keygen for Photoshop CS. In this case too the legality is questionable in various countries.
Is this a blatent troll attempt or what? Firstly, looking at my 'Windows Update' session, I can see an entry for SP2 there straight away, no hiding it, no 'automatic updates' here (which, by the way, doesnt automatically install anything, stop trolling). Secondly, I downloaded the .exe for it a week or so ago, so again, no hiding it there either. You restrain that tongue, since you dont seem to have the brain power to back it up at all.
For anyone else that tries this, automatic updates is akin to having a cron job for 'apt-get update', it refreshes the 'current updates' list that apply to you, without installing anything unless it has your prior aproval.
Basically, by the time they've finished implementing all of it, the bugs will have done it in and you'll be a fool not to have the upgrade, else your box be owned in under 5 minutes (assuming continuation of the current trends).
"if most of the updates will be available for current versions of Windows, what is the incentive to upgrade?"
Hah, Why do you think you'll have the option of *not* upgrading once you buy a new computer or some new hardware comes out that winxp doesn't support?
Don't you worry little droogie. You'll upgrade.
There's no mention of this in the article, but I'm beginning to wonder if MS is the "secret" company that licensed the Doom 3 engine for use with the new versions of Solitaire and Minesweeper.
The WinXP version was kick ass and had better AI than the POS 9x equivalents.
I dunno, I just hope they do something besides put in a great new engine.. maybe do something about the deck-hackers on the internet. They really like to ruin everyone's fun and it pisses me off.
We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
Might be related to my Japanese version of Windows XP, but I assure you that I was NOT able to find a way to download SP2 from the WindowsUpdate site as it displays on my computer here. I'm actually rather hesitant to install it, but I'm willing to risk one computer on it. My (Japanese) employer is reminding everyone NOT to install it at work on a daily basis.
If you are talking about the SP2 links I do see, NONE of the MANY I tried led to an actual installation option. Most of them led to instructions to turn on the auto-update, with or without the confirmation option (though I got the distinct impression Microsoft would find it more convenient to just forget about confirmation and simply install whatever they want to install on my machines whenever they want to install it). Some of the links provided irrelevant information, and others offered to sell me support or a CD with SP2.
I was not impressed. (But I admit that I've never liked Microsoft and my employer has frequently had negative experiences due to Microsoft.)
Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
>>If most of the updates will be available for current versions of Windows, what is the incentive to upgrade?"
Same as always. DirectX will not be permitted to install on an older version of Windows, thereby forcing you to upgrade if you want to play some new game released in the far future, say, Half-Life 2.
Also, MS will merely ram Longhorn down everyone's throats by forcing them to be installed on new PCs. Much as they did with XP.
Ryosen
One man's "Troll, +1" is another man's "Insightful, +1".
"Aparently you missed options 2-4"
But this is slashdot. Any options other than the first or last is usually unknown.
eg:
1. Have it download and install updates automatically
2. ???
3. Profit (For Bill)
it is only after a long journey that you know the strength of the horse.
I'm sick of this tripe. I don't mean to jump on you alone, but I've seen way too much of this FUD parroted around Slashdot, and you're the winner of my rant. :-)
If Microsoft doesn't innovate, then why is it that the list of improvements in the Linux 2.6 kernel reads like a feature list of NT from the early 90's?
That's just comparing the kernel, and I won't even go into the features that NT has that Linux still hasn't implemented.
You probably didn't know that NT already had those features, because most people don't seem to know much about Windows beyond the GUI. They assume that what they see on the surface is all that goes on. (And don't make the mistake that the NT kernel is the only innovative part about Windows.)
My point is that you shouldn't yell about the lack of innovation in a product just because the feature you're looking for isn't there.
Compatibility? Oh wait XP SP2 broke that!
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
(from someone who has tried and succeeded)
ROMANES EUNT DOMUS
5 minutes before you put the install CD in?
Secure and reliable means of making a profit?
Sounds about right, installation won't even be finished.
Examples bug comment
It was checked into the trunk codebase after Firefox had branched, so it won't show up in Firefox until the 1.1 builds.
If most of the updates will be available for current versions of Windows, what is the incentive to upgrade?
Why the spiffy new desktop theme that lets you this is the newest high tech deal, of course!
According to Micorsoft, the product lifecycle is five years.
The way Longhorn is coming, Windows XP will have reached the end of its own support time before Longhorn is released.
Do you think Microsoft is going to end product activation on it's current version of WIndows before they are at least two major releases past it?
Hey! Think of the money Microsoft will save in technical support staff wages during that interim!
I have no idea how you missed what I was saying; however, care to let me explain. I am not saying anything about SP1 for XP costing money, I'm simply making a comparison where XP SP1 broke machines which also makes it likely for these upgrades that allow XP to function like Longhorn.
As I said in the first sentence, MS is not a company that gives things away for free -- unless it profits their products (i.e. "free" developer tools for overpriced dev products -- wow so "free"). Why would they willing allow XP to be upgraded to Avalon, etc. without cost to consumer? They want to sell Longhorn not simply allow people to upgrade for free (i.e. Is Office 2000 free to Office '97 users?!). Think it through man -- I did. MS has a whole history it's not like they didn't burn people with this stuff before...
You haven't heard of SP1 break machines? I have -- legit copies too, you probably don't deal with as many XP users as I do and those who have broken their Windows machines probably moved to Linux so you don't hear their compliants -- or they just live without SP1 after a rebuild (that's what you do, MS won't reimburse you so complaining doesn't fix anything)...
Faster boot times
So you don't look like a complete bozo when all your friends show off their Mac OS X 10.4 "Tiger" and Linux new X.org systems. Both are looking really cool already, are getting lots of press coverage, and Microsoft needs to do something to give their customers the feeling that they are not being left behind any more than they are already. This is a "me too" release.
Actually, didn't the activedesktop stuff enable the QuickLaunch bar in win95? I could swear I remember my old Win95 machine with IE4 and activedesktop having the bar.
USB could be added, but it was crappy support, and I dont remember any major products actually working with Win95+usb.
When I tried using my USB quickcam that had 98 support in it on 95+usb, 95 shit itself and detected the cam 40 or so times over and over (and even showed up in the device manager that many times).
Brielle
Microsoft has been seeing increased resistance from developers over stuff like Avalon.
"No, I _don't_ want to throw away my WinForms stuff to develop for Avalon, which may be easier and more powerful to use, but will restrict my target market to those running Longhorn," is the general vibe.
By making Avalon available for Windows XP (presumably as some sort of runtime), Microsoft makes developing against Avalon a more realistic proposition.
As for all the users in here asking "why the hell would I want Avalon?" - some application developer will choose to use Avalon, and if you want that application, you'll want Avalon.
The system file checker is actually useful, but system restore is just crap!
----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
Minor point but the windows XP sp2 site did mention that they intended to release:
1) home via autoupdate
2) professional via autoupdate
3/4) allow people to download from the site.
It was clear but I do not care to go find the link (as it may be gone now that you can go to the SP2 site and download).
I don't think you are very clever really.
i'm a bit sick of all the MS bashing sometimes. see, as an IT-consultant, i install new PCs, servers etc. for a living. i certainly don't install every new MS OS just after release, but i haven't upgraded my servers to the 2.6 kernels too.
but, since a year, I certainly install XP, not 2000, on new PCs. why? because it is better then 2000, ME (oh my god! ;) ), 98 and NT. hardware detection has gotten better, WLAN support works, no need for a third party firewall, you can easily downgrade the UI to 9x/2000 style etc. - so why should i install an older windows just to proove that i'm a REAL /.er.. ? ;)
PAT
SEO Test: TIGI und SEBASTIAN - Online Shop - V
It will not, but the way it's broken will be declared the standard and the XP release will be retconned to an experimental beta preview demonstration teaser that was never spposed to "work" anyway.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
Thus it rewrites the domain parts of URLs from anything.slashdot.org to slashdot.org.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
Well my conclusion is that Michael always posts articles that are not only pathetic trolling attempts but are also braindead and silly since their arguments almost never hold water.
:-)
There's nothing wrong with advocacy, but when it's outright stupid, then it's wrong.
But I guess they do their purpose - they handsomely cater to anti-Microsoft folks and outrage all the others
While I'm already here:
> If most of the updates will be available for current versions of Windows, what is the incentive to upgrade?
What is the incentive to upgrade anyway? What is the incentive to buy a PC? What is the incentive to install Linux? Who gives a shit, people just want to get online to read news and check email.
If they charged for the update, he'd complain. Now that's it's free, he's fuding. If they did it both ways (free online upgrade or commercial CD-ROM update), he'd complain about closed source or lock-in effect. Fucking moron.
If most of the updates will be available for current versions of Windows, what is the incentive to upgrade?
DRM!!!
Yeah... right...
Longhorn will be designed with these features in mind. The base of the os will be optimized for it, and the features will be more tightly interwoven.
An excellent point, but I'd recommend avoiding Cleaner. Discreet broke the interface, stopped releasing updates some time ago, and has now pulled all their coders off the product. It's dead.
Instead, try ProCoder, the new Squeeze, or one of the other alternatives.
"Be Happy or Die." -- AoN
Microsoft is after the holy grail just like every other programmer, an operating system that can stand the test of time.
Sure quantum computing might bring a change that renders the bit a useless form but baring that it should be possible if others follow your compatibility instructions.
I can't see my grandkids or even me in 3 years running xp so of course they are going to upgrade.
Regardless of whether profit comes into it they are working on a solution, sure the specs are high, they need to support tonnes of stuff and a level of backwards compatability which is absurd, developers with closed code who don't even mention that they are developing for the OS.
Even with these obstacles MS does have the power of universal compatability on their side, developers are very likely to consider a MS port when they start writting code.
So let's stop complaining and hope it's good, if it's not there's plenty of time to not switch.
Longhorn is going to include some exciting new technologies... most importantly their new Monad (you really must research this)
I did some research and it appears the new shell was originally to be named Gates One-up-on uNix ADministrative tool.
Only after their lawyers insisted they couldn't patent the name in more than a handful of countries they went with the name Monad, which thankfully still rhymed.
And when they patent everything to do with SOA and roll out Indigo they will have achieved that.
I don't think there is anything that will keep them from this. Anyone? anyone?
Maybe two things. 1. No-one uses it or 2. no-one outside the US cares about any stupid patents about it and re-implements it their own way.
--- Hot Shot City is particularly good.
Firewire is a communications protocol. It's up to the device at the other end to provide a standard interface. Knowing Sony, I wouldn't be surprised that they require special drivers: they have their own flash memory standard, incompatible extensions to PalmOS, and I had to download drivers from Sony to get a friend's first gen Clie to talk to my computer.
Sure, Windows is more likely to have working drivers than Mac OS, simply because it's more popular so more vendors continue to provide updates to the drivers, but I've got a box full of Mouse Systems optical mice from 1992 that I can't use in any version of Windows past 3.11. They work fine in FreeBSD and Linux, though: if you really want to get oddball hardware to work, those are the systems to try.
Because the windows started to stack in the task bar. I can't understand why it took MS so long to figure that one out.
Well, looky here. Right on the Microsoft Download page, at the top of the 'favourite downloads' is this. Its conceivable that MS havent released the japanese centric version yet, but if you are going to complain about niche markets, then please make sure you include that information in the complaint, otherwise you run the risk of invalidating your complaint.
It's DRM. If MS will forge an agreement with a few big content providers and you'll want to access that content, you'll need a new DRMed PC with a new DRM-certified OS.
Did you even read my post? WinFS isn't cancelled, it's being shipped as a beta on release of Longhorn. I stated that very fact in my post. The CNN article also states that.
will be shipped later, with a test, or beta version, of WinFS shipping along with Longhorn in 2006.
Where do you get "cancelled" from that? Where do you get "scaled back?" Nowhere in any article does it state WinFS is getting scaled back.
How about an apology from you to me for not actually reading my post? Sigh...idiocy.
Again, this just doesn't make sense. Microsoft has repeatedly given things away to advance their products--every service pack ever as I showed in my last email. Internet Explorer!
Wow, they give it away so freely -- built right into the OS so you can never fully remove it. I think you mean maintain control over your computer -- not giving full control to the user (The whole point of a PC, but not according to MS). You certainly don't have your facts there and/or are ignorant of the truth. Why do you think the EU is trying to sue MS? Maybe you never heard about it...
Well as I said, I've upgraded about 20 XP boxes to SP1 and SP2 (and those are of course legit--I don't pirate), and haven't had a single application or box break
Did you try it on every PC in the world? Guess not, so in essence, your saying if I polled 200 people about their views on a particular subject then I can automatically assume that the majority among them is true among everyone in the world?! Ignorance...
I hope that satisfies your dick measuring competition.
Actually I was stating fact, you were the one that made it into a competition. I hope you enjoyed making a fool out of yourself by turning it into a "competition". Unlike you, I'd rather stick with the facts. My whole statement has to do with commercial selling of the patches not XP SP breaks this -- that's a side point but you'd rather use that to satisfy your desire for "competition".
Moridineas, perhaps I offended you in a previous life, why else would you try to tell me I was making something into a competition when it was secretly you?
Ok fine, even if I accepted everything you say here at face value (which I don't) MICROSOFT IS GIVING THINGS AWAY. That is all I was saying after you said they never gave anything away.
Misinterpretation, I didn't say they didn't give anyway anything, I said they didn't give anything that wasn't somehow directly related to one of their products (i.e. IE inreversibly built-in to Windows 98 and up) and their control over what must be present on a Windows box. Look at DRM, how about WMP? If I was a monopoly and wanted to control the user I'd give stuff like this too then I'd mix in some Palladium to ensure only stuff I support can run on my OS -- paradise for a monopoly!
I still don't understand your points--WHAT commercial selling of patches? MS makes every patch available for free! That's my point!
I am referring to the new Longhorn network and graphics (Avalon) interfaces as patches, we don't even know if they are free yet, and if Longhorn will cost $800 (Assuming from the rising prices of new MS OSes -- a continual rise) how can we assume those patches (network and graphics) will be free for XP and 2003, MS wants to make more money yearly and free upgrades to new OS has never been in their past so how can it be in their future? Perhaps it will be like Windows XP Upgrade -- a reduced amount but I am certain they will charge something to convince people to buy Longhorn instead of a simple upgrade.
So you don't get confused, Avalon and the network interface for Longhorn that will be available for Windows XP and 2003 will not be "absolutely free" just like Windows XP Upgrade isn't.
Just to clarify, I finally did get confirmation (if I understand the Japanese correctly) that the release date for Japanese is 9/1. However, I don't feel like "niche market" ia an appropriate description of the situation. I'd think Japanese is probably the second or third largest computer language after English. (I should dig up some stats, but too tired now...)
Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
Start MoridineasChat
I think you're on crack that you would even guess Longhorn is that expensive
LOL so you gonna tell me that XP Pro costs $330 retail (even that is generous)? So you smoke crack and figure I do...wow your very lame all your comments are based on put-downs saying I'm right and your wrong -- just like a 4 year old kid. I fail to see how anyone can carry a decent conversation on with you, you must live under a rock -- social skills of 0. You even fail to understand that $800 was a ballpark guess making the assumption that it was fact when it isn't even out yet (ignorance on your part)!!!
Carry on your little "competition" but I will no longer respond to your ignorance of a 4 year old, either grow up or find a website tailored to your little "competitions" and "selective" reading of people's statements so that you can talk them down. You certainly don't advance society you would rather drag it down to the gutter -- and I hate to say it but it's true from all your previous posts. You must be a high-up in MS to defend them so strongly -- their pricey scheme is entirely retarded but you don't want to see it with your "selective" view. Thanks for dragging my 3 statements of truth into a useless argument because you want to be right and everyone else wrong! I've had my fill of your ignorance and learn to grow up.
END MoridineasChat
so SP2 sucks coz your meployer warns you not to download it???
and this is obviously the fault of MS and not because your comapny has legacy and berspoke apps that need to be tested before any patches can be rolled out??
bah!*@%!
BTW- don't talk to me about running Microsoft Office on top of Linux. I don't care how you do it, it's a bad idea. Office is a broken product by Microsoft's standards. If you're using Linux, use software developed for Linux and you'll be much more satisfied.
I am feeling fat and sassy