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How has the USA PATRIOT Act Affected You?
wetdogjp asks: "October 26th, 2004 marked the third anniversary of the Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act (or USA PATRIOT Act, as it is more commonly known). While the Slashdot crowd can certainly muster the enthusiasm to debate its pro's and con's, I'd like to know: How has the USA PATRIOT Act affected you, personally? How has it interfered with your personal and professional life? Has this act influenced your Presidential vote?"
How about it has not effected me one bit. Just like how it has not effected 99.9% of Americans.
It hasn't really affected me. I do hear some clicking in my phone every time I talk on it, but I think that's just the phoneline.
At least I know somebody else is keeping logs of my AIM conversations so I dont have to use the disk space.
I'm a Canadian that feels deeply disappointed that so many Americans can still vote for someone like Bush. Yikes!
Meh.
I have not been personally affected by the existance of the PATRIOT act as of yet.
However, in 5-10 years if the PATRIOT act is still around, I believe things will change greatly. Once the US stops chasing people around the globe these very convenient changes in rights and law will be used against everyone equally.
Not to mention: I doubt it's exactly fair to ask this question here, because anyone who actually *has* been affected by the PATRIOT act probably no longer finds themselves in a position where freedom of speech or the ability to access devices for global communication are available to them.
Completely robbed me of my faith in my country.
-Zeecog
I used to be apathetic about government and politics. Uniniterested in 'what those wanks in Washington were doing'. The first inkling of a problem was the CDA (Communications Decency Act), which was scary, but okay, some bad legistlation is bound to happen.
:)
Then Bush and his cronies moved in, and anything even approaching preservation of civil liberties, the Constitution, or... okay, lets be honest, our dignity... went totally out the window in pursuit of idealism and Empire building.
I'm ashamed that the coutnry I live in could put a man like George Bush in power, could support a congress that would ratify such onerous legislation as the Patriot Act, and, what's worse, even consider re-electing this man. (As I type this, the US elections are still undecided).
More commentary on my blog, I'm done ranting here.
Event Management Solutions : http://www.stonekeep.com/
Not that I know of. But that's the whole point isn't it?
-sig removed for tax purposes-
As a Canadian, you would expect that it has NOT affected me. But in the light of recent news, I'm not so sure anymore. I'll get flamed for this, but why should your government Patriotism give them every right in MY country? Canadians are patriotic too, love they country, want to protect it, etc... did we ever invade USA citizens privacy like this? Sure, its to fight terrorism... but be careful not to damage your relations with your allies by doing so (if its not already done, with France and the Iraq war).
Eureka Science News - automatically updated
Has this act influenced your Presidential vote?
This is simple. Why I voted for Kerry:
1) President Bush empowered himself to take the civil liberties away from US Citizens. The last president I remember really hacked away at rights explicitly stated in the US Constitution was John Adams (correct me if I'm wrong). Bush claims that it will only be used on terrorists, but merely being accused of being one automatically strips you of your civil liberties. Declared guilty before proven innocent. Even Timothy McVeigh still received a lawyer and a trial.
2) President Bush guarded nothing in Baghdad except the oil refinery. I truly believed up until I read about this that "liberating" Iraq was not because of the oil, but because Saddam was hiding something up his sleeve. I tried to convince everyone I could in Egypt that it wasn't about the oil.
Why would this affect my vote for president when both major candidates are in favor of the act?
Can I move up there with you?
Seriously, I am completely convinced this is entirely rigged. I've been all over the US in the last couple years, and I have met so few people who view the last four years in a positive light.
Not to mention the number of electronic voting devies used in this election, ALL (as far as I know) which have been *proven* to have hackable and faulty security. How scary is that?
We also have a system here that does not allow the majority to vote for president (majority vote in 2000 was for the other candidate who was cheated out of office).
The saddest thing of all is that, if there are really this many that prefer our current president, not many of them seem to understand that our pestering of other nations is what results in terrorism, and we ourselves are to blame. It really is so confusing and sad to see your fellow humans this way.
A couple of months ago, I went into a bank to sign up for a checking account. Since I am under 18, my parent's were going to be co-signers of the checking account with me. I was told that I wouldn't be able to open an account without a state ID. At the time, I didn't have a state ID or driver's license, and so I was promptly told that I couln't open an account. I know most people have driver's licenses so it's not a problem for them, but for people under 18, it is another hurdle.
At a time when some of our compatriots were dazzled by America and hoping that these visits would have an effect on our countries, all of a sudden he (Bush Sr.) was affected by those monarchies and military regimes, and became envious of their remaining decades in their positions, to embezzle the public wealth of the nation without supervision or accounting.
So he took dictatorship and suppression of freedoms to his son and they named it the Patriot Act, under the pretence of fighting terrorism.
- Osama bin Ladin
Well, perhaps it bears reminding you then that BOTH Bush AND Kerry came out in support of the suggested "part 2" of the original Patriot Act. In fact, when questioned about the details, Bush said he would be "largely in support of it, with a few changes" while Kerry said he was in total support of the bill, as-is.
I'm an American who is deeply disappointed that more people can't see past the B.S. that is our current 2-party system and place a vote for the Libertarians.
Insanity, as they say, is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results.....
Yes, because after all "rights" and "freedoms" were not designed so you could do things the government doesn't approve of, and the only people who care about them must pretty much be terrorists anyway. What kind of a weirdo doesn't want the government to have unlimited power to go through their shit? The kind with something to hide of course!
Which is worse: ignorance or apathy? Who knows? Who cares?
The main reason you don't hear anything is because it is one of the provisions of the patriot act.
You are not allowed to discuss any charges brought against you. You can be held without council. You can be held indefinately.
Why do you think the ACLU/EFF couldn't talk about their case against the Patriot Act?
If your civil liberties die in a country with no one around to defend it, do you make a sound?
~X~
"You have rights....then you have wrongs."
~X~
It's made me aware of government intercepts in ISP's, so I've setup postfix, cyrus, courier and sendmail wherever I use them to use SSL whenever possible. I also finally bought a real cert (from InstantSSL for $50).
I suppose Carnivore and Echelon were there before Patriot but it didn't wake me up as much.
It bothers me personally and politically, yet there was no candidate I could vote for who was against Patriot and for Preemption. In the end, Patriot was lower on my scale. You could say I like my terrorism policy like my operating systems - preemptive rather than cooperative.
I'm firmly of the opinion that no matter what we do to try to protect the country there is a way around those measures. Short of locking everybody in their houses there are opportunities for terrorists to strike.
So we shouldn't step on _any_ civil liberties of Citizens and we should be on the offensive.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
I'm sure that the people effected most by the PATRIOT Act aren't reading /.
Do they have broadband in Guantanamo?
What are we supposed to do, wait until a few million people _are_ affected by bad laws before suggesting they are not in our best interests? That sort of thinking got us the War on Drugs and millions of citizens spending time in prison and law enforcement constantly expanding its scope to try to enforce fundamentally unenforcable laws. Most americans weren't affected by the Alien and Seditions Acts. Most americans in the north weren't affected by slavery laws. Most germans weren't affected by the Nuremburg laws. Just because it doesn't screw over >50% of the population in the first 3 years of its existence doesn't mean that it shouldn't be fought. Particularly when the law itself demands that any uses and abuses be kept hidden from the public.
Dyolf Knip
My friend was taken away in about 5 minutes to some secret underground interrogation room, and didn't come back for about 3 hours.
I was questioned at the scene about any knowledge I had about blank checks and my friend's connection to terrorist organizations.
The police asked to search my car, and when I refused, I was suddenly surrounded by members of the SWAT team, dogs, machine guns and all.
They searched my car with me on the ground at gun point (during rush hour in downtown DC, no less!), and needless to say, found no fake checks.
When all was said and done, the man in charge of the Anti-Terrorism Task Force/Secret Service Police shook my hand and thanked me for doing a great service to America, and a great service for freedom. My pleasure.
Apparently, someone with a grudge against my friend had called a contact at the treasury dept. and told him that we were all involved in a money laundering scheme. They take those threats pretty seriously.
Oh yeah, they also stole the chinese food I had brought home for lunch :(
No heaven can heaven be, if my horse isn't there to welcome me.
Though the Patriot Act specifically hasn't affected me in any way I realize, the mentality the War on Terror brought to law enforcement, manifested in the Patriot Act, has.
In the summer of 2002 my family was in the middle of selling a house, and potential buyers were often touring, checking things out.
One couple with a digital camera was photographing the interior when they opened my room closet and discovered my trusty potato gun. They decided it was a device of terror, photgraphed it, and forwarded the images to the state police when they got home. My family and I didn't know until the next day, when some serious looking dudes showed up.
Luckily the police were relatively reasonable and left without incident, but the whole thing was disconcerting.
I came to realize that I feared the self-deputized public more than any law they could come up with in Washington. Whenever the terror level goes up, and citizens are told to "be watchful," what does that really mean? Eyeball dark-skinned people with foreign-looking head-dress, or poke around someone's house sneaking out pictures to send to the police?
I'll give our leadership the benefit of the doubt, and presume that they're not entirely aware of the shift in public thought they're sponsoring. I couldn't propose a much better way of handling it all, either. I just know that as an individual, living in America after 9/11, it's starting to be weird and suck and I hope that it doesn't get any worse.
the word "homeland" makes me think it's Germany in 1938.
#!/bin/sh
;;
;;
case $Election_Outcome in
Kerry )
echo "The Patriot Act has had a significant impact on my life. Some of it has been indirect, like the Wiccan friend (who was my friend before she was even Wiccan) in another part of the country who warned me that knowing her might jepoardize my clearance...it already had for some of her other friends. And the only reason why is because of her affiliation with a Wiccan coven. I'd point out that the Supreme Court has ruled that Wicca is a valid religion, and that covens are eligible for tax-exempt status as such."
Bush )
"Ah, the glorious Patriot Act! It has done nothing but brought cheer and happiness to me since it was first conceived. My papers are in order, ja?"
esac
For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
Will this really affect me in any meaningful way? Probably not. However it's still a little weird.
The CENSORED act has not affected ma at all. I work at CENSORED and we have no CENSORED. I have noticed no difference in my life at CENSORED since theCENSORED act came to be. I can even process CENSORED reports and look at all the files in the CENSORED. I do not believe that the act has caused any censorship or CENSORED on the part of CENSORED . Any on who think they are affected adversely onlt need to lodge a complaint with the bureau of CENSORED. You can e-mail them at CENSORED@CENSORED . You can also reach them via the url www.CENSORED.CENSORED Respectfully, CENSORED
Except for that Oklahoma City bombing, of course.
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
he's a self proclaimed war president. who doesn't like war? especially pre-emptive offensive ones, where many innocents & soldiers are dying. but it was a war on the concept of 'terror.' well at least the first country, Afghanistan, was involved. luckily, he kept up an atmosphere of fear & had the country terrified.
USA PATRIOT Act. I had too many Constitutional rights, freedoms, & liberties. I can spare a few, can't you? whatever idiot* said 'Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.' probably had no experience. The ACLU can't even discuss their case against the gov ABOUT the USA PATRIOT Act. no one will deny, thats pretty awesome!
Attorney General Ashcroft. I don't even feel like bringing up legit reasons like covering boobs on statues OF the personification of Justice. (the turn on almost caused me to rape.) crisco, anyone?
I don't like people to express opinions if they are different from my own. even if they do it peacefully & respectfully. of course, I am assuming those in power will always hold the same views as I do. Love America, Hate Bush
* Ben Franklin
The USAPATRIOT act may not have affected me in any material way, but it has affected me in some very serious ways, namely a loss of faith in some of the basic principles that make up my idea of what America IS.
By allowing expanded powers to the investigative branches of the government with only minimal oversight by the judicial branch, the act undermines my protections under the 4th amendment. Sneak-and-peak warrants have been allowed under the FISA and criminal statutes since the late 60's, with probable cause, and with bench approval.
Now, however, the standards have been lowered to a point that the average citizen can have their private records and personal affects searched (and bugged) for, what would have been in the past, only minimally suspicious behaviors. Imagine, for instance, that you are a student researching a paper for a comparative religion class that takes you into the realm of researching reasons, justifications, and methods used by suicide bombers/terrorists. With only the barest of oversight, the government now has the right to partake of surveillance that would have been considered "beyond the pale" only 3 years ago.
My biggest complaint, however, has nothing to do with the above. It has to do with the "Enemy Combatant" detainments that have been an ongoing problem in the judicial system. Under the 6th amendment, we have the right to a speedy and public trial. By right, we have for the last 200+ years enjoyed this protection under the bill of rights. Now, though, if the government can come up with a reason to label you an enemy combatant, they can hold you for an indefinite time in an undisclosed location, with no access to legal counsel.
At one point in the past, I was a Muslim. I frequented a mosque that I discovered (many years after the fact) was frequented by "unsavory" types that were recruiting people to fight in one of the earlier Palestinian Intifada's. Do I now have to forever look o'er my shoulder to see if I am being followed? Maybe.
Both of the above situations are also are protected by the 14th amendment (due process), but this due process has been undermined by the USA Patriot act.
How can we truly call ourselves the land of the free when we allow our constitutional freedoms to be circumvented by acts of congress?
== That terrible green-green grass, and violent blooms of flower dresses, and afternoons that make me sleepy.==
... and who doesn't live in the country:
The Patriot act has made me decide to never go to the US. There's a lot of stuff I'd like to see and do there, but I will never enter the US as long as Bush is in power and legislation like the DCMA and the Patriot Act are law.
/mike
-- "So, what's the deal with Auntie Gerschwitz et all?"
As one poster pointed out, you wouldn't have caught Timothy McVeigh with your scheme.
You also wouldn't have caught the dude that burned all those churches in the South a few years back, nor any of the abortion-clinic bombers, nor would you have prevented the Columbine Massacre, not to mention the Kittamer Massacre.
Unfortunately, in the USA, we have cheapened citizenship so much that there is almost no difference in privileges and rights claimed by non-citizens and a citizens in the USA.
The declaration of independence sorta sets the stage. It is a legal document that declares our freedom from Britain. Personally, I'd like to see the Brits point out how we've failed to meet our promises in said Declaration, and that means ownership of the country reverts back to them. Wouldn't that be fun? Anyway, the Declaration of Independence says something about holding certain rights to be inalienable, and says *nothing* about "inalienable only for american citizens, but foreigners don't enjoy these rights in our land".
This country was built by immigrants. To treat foreigners like you would treat them is to spit on our own roots, and then, of course, we can never go home again.
Like what I said? You might like my music
The problem is they go too hardcore and also often act like assclowns. I mean if you asked me what party I was, I'd have to say Libertarian. Their general views seem to match my general views on the majority of issues. Problem is the party itself gets all extreme about them, and that's just not a way to break in to the current system.
Then they also pull stupid ass stunts that make them look immature. In Arizona, they got an order to show cause as to why they were excluded from the debates. Now they actually had a legit argument. See the presidential debates have 3 requirements to get in:
1) You have to actually be elegible (as in native citizen, of proper age, etc) to be president.
Seems good, I mean if you are disqualified form running, no point in you participating in the debates. Badnarik meets this one.
2) You have to be on the ballot in enough states to theoritically be able to win a majority of the EC.
Also seems good. You have to win a majority (or be elected by the House of Representitives if there is no majority winner) to become president, so if you aren't on enough ballots ot get it, you aren't really in the running. Badnarik also met this.
3) You have to have shown a fairly large popular support, I think to the effect of 10%.
Ok well this one is problematic. Seems to me that keeps it a 2-party game. I mean popular support could very well be gained in the debates. Badnarik did not meet this.
So there was a legit reason to take this to court. They probably would have lost, but it is a worthy challenge. Good idea right? Er, no.
They didn't actually do it to get it to court. They waited till the night of the debate, and then attempted to force their way in and have Badnarik serve the papers. Well that does fuck-all good. For one, you can't serve papers for a lawsuit you are involved in, and it wouldn't do any good anyhow since the debate was already happening. Badnarik even stated the whole stunt was just to get arrested and get publicity.
Well between the extreme Libretarian position and the asshattery of things like this, they just ruin their chances.
I really wish that they'd mellow out, become more moderate and get serious. I think they could become a credible threat if they did. However as it stands they are basicalyl just a fringe party. I know a lot of people that consider themselves Libertarian and I don't know any of them that considered voting for Badnarik.
The hell with it! In fact, let them look through my desk at work whenever they want! Who cares! Hey, it's cool, you wanna search my house next? Go ahead, as long as you do it when I don't know about it! I'm not doing anything wrong, so who cares about privacy? I don't! More power to you!
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
It's made me realize that Struggling To Unite Populations In Distress, America's Completely Relying On Nationalistic Yet Moronic Symbolism.
Thats debatable. The language used in the constitution (and more importantly, the bill of rights) imply that most rights apply to non-citizens.
Most importantly regarding the current treatment of non-citizen "terrorists":
Amendment V : No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Amendment VI : In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
Amendment XIV Section 1 : All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
You'll note that at other points in the Constitution and its amendments, when it means citizen, it SAYS citizen.
The US Patriot Act has caused me to fear my government even more than normal. Now, when I work on my projects, even if I am not actually a terrorist, I worry that I may be labled as such. Is this the way a law abiding citizen should feel at home?
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
This would be the same country that was built on slavery, that had racial segregation and which treated blacks as second class citizens until only a few decades ago, that still treats its indigenous peoples as worse than second class citizens in many aspects, that has clear sexual discrimination in the workplace (women still earn less than men), that has clear homophobic discrimination in government (gays in the military), that has a President that wants to discriminate further against gays (gay marriage), that has illegal internment of anyone with even partial Japanese heritage (during WWII) and McCarthyism (when freedom of expression went out the window) in its recent past and has now resorted to illegal internment and religious McCarthyism again.
Yeah, because nothing could ever be shown to have been held unfairly against anyone at anytime in America's recent history, could it?
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Your only hope is to have it shot down in the Supreme Court now. Both parties have been pushing for this for some time. The People had already spoken. We consistently and emphatically told them 'hell no'. Three strikes, you're out, right? Oh no! Now the world's a different place with all the terrorists running about! Privacy is great an all, but the founding fathers could hardly anticipate terrorism! Get with the program you whining liberal pinkos! Now the FBI can sign their own warrant, sneak into your home, plant bugs and video cameras, and basically make Amendment 4 null and void.
May I make one suggestion; Would you be so kind as to change your name from FBI to KGB and give up any pretense? Thanks.
I can't believe what a bunch of nerds we are. We're looking up "money laundering" in the dictionary.
The PATRIOT Act has affected me quite personally.
I'm a high school senior. This summer, I was in Ithaca visiting Cornell. After our visit to the campus, we decided to do some exploring of the area, because it's really quite lonely up there but also quite quaint. We figured we could find a cute little town down by the lake there. We decided to check out Aurora on Route 90.
Well, we turned down another road by accident. It was unmarked and at a 10% grade downhill. We wound up at the lake, certainly, but not in Aurora. We found ourselves at a power plant. Obviously, we knew we were in the wrong place, so we stopped.
My dad suggested I get out of the car and take some pictures. The sun was setting and the area was terribly scenic. At this time, another car, a dark sedan that had been following us down the road, made a quick turnaround. I proceeded to get out of the car and take some pictures. My dad called me back, so I ran back to the car, and we drove off. That was at 7:38 pm.
Fast forward to 11pm. My family is at the hotel, and my sister and I are trying to go to sleep. For reference, we have two adjoining rooms, one for my parents and one for me and my sister. Somebody bangs on my parents' door saying he's with the state police. My sister and I heard it and we assumed it was a joke.
It wasn't a joke at all. The New York State Police really came into my parents' room and started questioning them. My sister and I had sort of gotten up and were listening through the door. Keep in mind that at this time I'm in my pajamas and without my contacts. The officers notice someone next door, and we come into my parents' room.
The State Police were investigating a possible terrorist threat: me.
My dad had been talking for me, but there were inconsistencies in his story. Obviously. He wasn't the one taking the pictures after all. I didn't remember exactly what happened, as in which picture I took in what order, because it wasn't as if I thought I would need to know that.
THe officers want to see my camera, so my dad goes and gets it from the car. I'm in tears, because here I am, half blind and not dressed, being accused of being a TERRORIST.
I showed them my camera, and they thought it was digital, but it's not; it only appears so because it's got a large LCD status display on the back. (Thank goodness I stick to film, because I don't want to think about what might've happened to me had it been a digital camera.)
The entire scene at the plant had been recorded by a security camera, and the way the other car was there coupled by how I ran back to the car and how quickly my dad turned around made our behavior seem very suspicious.
The police told me that that power plant supplies one-sixteenth of the power to the East Coast and that knocking it out would leave millions without power for months. My case was especially worsened by the fact that there had been a legitimate threat against another area plant that same day. They told us we were lucky they found us: they'd had to stop a bulletin going out to the whole East Coast looking for our car. If they hadn't, the next day we would have been surrounded by 20 state police cars with guns to our heads. If that's not a threat, I don't know what is.
They wanted my film. I used up the last shot on the roll just by taking a picture of the floor, and then I handed the film over. The fact that I had fourth amendment rights never occurred to me. I was quite frankly scared out of my mind. Other people I've told said they would have refused, but my life had just been threatened. I think that's the part they don't get.
So they took my film and left. I couldn't sleep for quite a while and was quite visibly upset through the next day.
I'm still paranoid about police.
It took me quite some time to realize that I had done nothing wrong. There were no signs of warning or anything near the power plant. No "Authoriz
I think you mean Khitomer Massacre.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, though I'm not yet sure about the universe. - A Einstein
There are three problems with the Patriot Act. The first is obviously a suspension of due process. Within 6 months of passing it, the Bush administration was boasting that it had been used to to prosecute drug dealers. This has nothing to do with terrorism, and showed the real intent: a law which could be used to suspend normal due process in the investigation and prosecution of anyone, not just terrorists.
Secondly, there is the invasion of privacy. I really could care less if anyone read all my email or searched my computer. There's nothing incriminating. But this lack of concern only applies if the intent is criminal investigation. Political persecution is another matter. The Patriot Act is a perfect cover for a fascistic Star Chamber. If a group within the intelligence community decided that only those with the proper political views should rise to prominent positions, the Patriot Act would give them the clout to find out who does or doesn't hold these views. The persecution part is easy--just call a prospective employer and drop hints about an investigation into your background and affiliation with criminal organizations. The Patriot Act makes the Thought Police a real possibility. This is why law enforcement was required to get permission and provide notification. It permits ordinary citizens to catch the scent of this kind of activity, permitting correction by civil and political action. A crucial part of the checks and balances of the American system has been disabled.
The third danger is high noise and low signal. If the intelligence community becomes involved in the unneccesary surveilance of innocent civilians, the time, expense, and manpower devoted to this is diverted from genuine threats. The end result is less security, not more. In one of the debates, John Kerry mentioned thousands of hourse of surveilance tapes that have never been watched. Who is going to watch all of this? This is noise. In Britain, where cameras have been installed everywhere, their main usage is to bust people for traffic violations. I suppose that if a terrorist attack does occur, they can look at the tapes later and say, "Oh, there go the terrorists."
What the intelligence community needs to do is focus, get people on the ground, and stop the political infighting that is clogging the system. That means that people in the intelligence community should check their political opinions at the door when they come in, and stop pulling stunts like outing CIA operatives for political gain. The draconian measure currently being used won't help either; if you know a guy who is innocent but might have a lead, you're a lot less likely to give his name if you think he might get shipped to Guantanamo Bay just because he might be a couple steps removed from suspicious characters. And finally, they would have to get rid of John Ashcroft, the incompetent git who lost an election to a dead guy, shut down the FBI people who informed him of the suspicious group of Arabs training in a flight school in Florida, and who has detained 6000 people without finding a single terrorist. As long as he's in place, nothing else will matter.
Padilla has not been charged with a crime, and does not have access to a lawyer in his detention.
Source
11/3/04 - 6/9/02 = 2 years, 4 months, and 3 weeks.
No charges, no trial, no lawyer. Nothing. Welcome to your new home citizen. Enjoy your stay here at the Ministry of Love.
1) Personally: It offends my sense of civil-libertarian principle. The law leaves Americans less-free to go about their business unmolested by the hand of Big Brother. Restrictions on freedom should always be as few as reasonably possible, and the PATRIOT Act certainly doesn't qualify as a justifiable reasonable restriction on freedom in my book. It didn't 3 years ago, and it still does not.
2) Professionally: Having worked in the financial industry, the PATRIOT Act made my employer more-transparent to the govn't for terrorist-spotting purposes. This is a drain on our system resources and therefore, our productivity, and therefore, our efficiency, and therefore, our profits, and therefore, my income. So the PATRIOT Act has regulated away some (perhaps admittedly-small) amount of my income -- and for what?
Nothing except freedom-reduction and inefficiency, as far as I can tell.
Here's a better question: how many terrorists have we caught thanks *solely* to the PATRIOT Act? If we are to justify the law as useful for catching terrorists, then we had better *judge* it based on how many terrorists we catch -- NOT whether we have each been harmed by it. After all, a law that does nothing is a useless law wasting space on the shelves of law libraries across America, continuing to displace liberty in the name of security.
Indeed, true liberty is a lawyer's empty bookshelf.
And if the PATRIOT Act has been unsuccessful in catching terrorists, then the law has failed and we damn well had better repeal it for freedom's sake (and then proceed to find a better solution to the terrorist problem).
Look, just because the law hasn't affected somebody *yet* doesn't mean it *never* will. Take the tax cuts of the Reagan era -- it wasn't a week before Democrats were saying "OMG, it's not working!" But the process isn't that fast -- and in the end, the tax cuts worked.
So too will it be with the PATRIOT Act -- we may not have each been severely violated by it yet, but it is likely we will, sooner or later -- just like the DMCA. Therein lies the problem with the PATRIOT Act, the DMCA, the McCain-Feingold Act, or any other law: sooner or later, it comes back to bite you in the ass. But few people realize it until it's too late...
Is Capitalism Good for the Poor?
Terrorism refers to the methodology of using violence to incite a fearful reaction from a civilian population, for the purpose of achieving a political, religious or social goal. Terrorist acts can be carried out by individuals, groups, or governments.
The use of the terms terrorism and terrorist is politically weighted, as these terms (and historically, other terms like them) are often used in propaganda to drum up support in opposition to the designated "terrorists."
Nations that support forms of organized violence (particularly where civilians are harmed) will tend to dissociate themselves from the term, and will use neutral or even positive terms to characterize their own combatants - such as soldiers, freedom fighters and patriots, all of which can be ambiguous.
Terrorist is a term for one who is personally involved in an act of terrorism. Terrorist tactics may also be used by dissident groups or other actors to achieve political ends or for purposes of extortion.
You don't think McVehigh counts as a terrorist? I pray people in Oklahoma are not nearly as ignorant as you.
After a move to an apartment, I decided to change my address with my banks, etc. This apparently triggered something which froze all my accounts. I took so long to straighten out that I had to borrow money from friends to make my payments and to live. My broker told me this was a new government requirement from the Patriot Act.
Thing is, I was freaked out that all the freedom we claim to have in this country was suddenly pulled out from under me. Most people don't think they could ever be affected by things like this but I am much more of a civil libertarian because of it.
You may not have noticed, but the USA Patriot Act passed 98-1 in the Senate, 356-66 in the House, meaning the vast majority of Democrats voted for it too. If you hate the Act, you can equally blame the Democrats for whatever ills it brings.
.. the States.
Because of PATRIOT Act, I have completely cut all involvement with America down to whatever interaction happens on the Internet with a few Americans I know, and a close circle of friends I occasionally stay in touch with and see when they travel the world.
I no longer work with Americans. I no longer travel to the U.S. for business. (trade shows &etc) I'm not taking any chances; the U.S. has become a techno-militaristic fascist state, and no longer represents to me, a member of the so-called "free world", the bastion of freedom and expression that it once did.
The U.S. is a Cop, and you don't hang with cops if you don't have to. And if you have to, you don't want to.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
A lot of people have been quick to respond that it hasn't affected them. Howthe hell do you knowthat? Many provisions of the PATRIOT Act prevent you from learning that it has been used against you. Just because you haven't had US Marshals knocking on your door doesn't mean you haven't had your library record analyzed. Just because you haven't been detained without charges doesn't mean that more of your tax money isn't going to extra surveilance that is ethically questionable and wouldn't be legal without the PATRIOT Act.
Alright, well, howabout guys with beards then? If we just watchout for guys with beards, we'll be safe....
Firstly, nice to see you using the Anonymous Coward option for what it was designed for: letting people freely spout whatever they want to free from persecution. Ironically, it's that sort of anonymity and protection of freedom of expression that the PATRIOT ACT essentially undermines.
Having said that, I do prefer it if people are willing to stand up and be counted when voicing a viewpoint that's diametrically opposed to my own. If nothing else, it makes it easier to track a conversation back and forth if I know which messages are being posted by which individual. Funny though, there are some out there that would say that standing up and being counted just makes it easier to weed out unwanted voices of dissent, as many a political prisoner throughout history could testify.
Secondly, it's nice to see you skim over those parts of my post that you don't feel like addressing, presumably because you have no way of rationalising away those forms of unfair discrimination and abuses of power.
Yeah, ignore the fact that a country theoretically built on the principle that "all men are created equal" was practically built with the blood, sweat and tears of a subjugated people. Ignore the fact that the Constitution valued the life of a negro slave as 3/5ths of a man, or that the freed slaves never did get their 40 acres and a mule in compensation.
Ignore the fact that, as recently as a couple of generations ago, blacks couldn't drink from the same water fountain as whites, that blacks had to give up their seats to whites, that blacks couldn't share the same classrooms as whites and that lynchings were a way of life.
Ignore the fact that as badly as black Americans have been treated, that native American peoples have been treated far worse, from the days of Plymouth Rock to Custer to today.
Ignore the fact that a woman doing the same job as a man who's equal to her in every other aspect other than their genders is likely to be earning less than her male counterpart, and is far less likely to be promoted than her male colleague.
Ignore the fact that being gay in the US military is akin to being unfit for service. As if a gay man is any less capable of firing a rifle, driving a tank or flying a plane.
Ignore the fact that the 43rd President of the United States would actively seek to take rights away from people based purely on their sexuality, even where those rights have been specifically granted to them by one or more of the States.
Ignore the fact that nothing more than a person's ethnicity has been used in the past to justify their imprisonment. Japanese Americans and others who spent most of World War II illegally imprisoned in internment camps clearly didn't have any rights.
Ignore the fact that a person's beliefs, however privately they may be held, have been reason enough to hound them unendlessly. Ignore the fact that McCarthyism ever existed and, to put it mildly, that it flew in the face of free speech.
Ignore the fact that post-September 11th, hundreds of Americans of Middle Eastern descent were interned without any legal representation or even access to their families whatsoever. And, whatever you do, ignore Camp X-Ray and everything that's gone on there.
Ignore the racial and religious McCarthyism that's going on right now, where people are routinely discriminated against because their skin is the wrong colour or because of their faith.
And above all, ignore any point that espouses a viewpoint that you disagree with.
I made a list in response to comments by someone who clearly didn't believe that innocents could be unfairly targetted in the US. I made a list to educate him that, unfortunately, innocents can and have been unfairly targetted in the US several times.
The land of the free isn't supposed to be the land of the free for most of the people, it's meant to be the land of the free for all of the people.
If you're so uncomfortable with a short list of examples of your country's failings then you really need to examine why it is you feel the need to defend the indefensible.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Nausea at the retreat from the courage and ideals
that once characterized this nation.
Once we were the land of the free and the home of the brave.
Now we're the land of the secretly-surveiled,
and the home of the anxious-about-safety.
"When the freedom they wished for most
was the freedom from responsibility,
then Athens ceased to be free,
and never was free again."
- Edith Hamilton
Wait a minute. Didn't I say that on the other side of the record? I'd better check
Ring up and report yourself. Make sure you have a lawyer with you or a news crew and see what happens.
Or just randomly report people who you think are terrorists. When they start dragging people away in droves, thats when people will start to feel the outrage.
It's not the "Patriot" Act; it's the "USAPATRIOT" Act.
Please use the full acronym, or its full name: "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism".
The "USAPATRIOT" Act has nothing to do with patriotism, so calling it the "Patriot Act" is misleading.
(Considering how the Act is being misused these days, even using its full name is somewhat misleading (How is copyright infringement "terrorism"?).)
Personally, I pronounce it "the you sap at riot act" to avoid confusion.
Other pronunciations are "the US ap uh TRY ot act" and (as Jar-Jar) "the YOUsa pah TR-R-RE-E-E at act".
Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
Why is this modded funny? This is making a serious point.
Keith D.
Unfortunately (fortunately?) the Declaration of Independance is not a law, it's just a document. They represent the ideas that we've supposedly based our government on, but it has no legal merit. I'm sure you weren't implying that, but some people seem to think it's part of the Constitution.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
The problem of terrorism is due to almost exclusively people who are not American citizens.
...
The 'problem' with terrorism is in its definition. Who says what a terrorist is, and who says what a terrorist does? Find that person, and you have found someone who stands to profit from both sides of the terror coin.
Terror'-ism' is a pop-psych brain-trick designed to herd the masses towards a desired point of view. It is not a valid argument for civilization, nor is it a valid argument for war. To treat 'terrorism' as if it were a new problem, and not as old as the hills in which we build our cities, is to attempt to re-define it for political gain in the new language landscape presented by the modern American empire, and its media.
Any foolish 'patriot' who falls into the trap of believing that someone who does not 'hate terrorism' is an enemy of their land, has become a victim in point of fact of terrorist ideology
Terrorism is an ideology. Those who define that ideology are the true terrorists.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
You obviously dislike america, but you do have some valid complaints. But living in the real world, what country does it better?
I recently took a trip to New York and walked across the Brooklyn Bridge. The PATRIOT act kept that bridge from being blown up. I liked that walk.
-brain
The reservations are on land that settlers didn't want. Native Americans who live on the reservations are often barred from working off the reservation, either by law (in some cases they're not considered U.S. citizens) or because of discrimination. Most of the reservations have no economy to speak of other than a small amount of tourism (and maybe the casinos you mentioned, but only in some cases). Poverty and alcoholism are usually rampant, and if there is a casino, many of the folks on the reservation don't see any money from it because of corruption.
A few years ago I went on a service trip to Oaks Indian School, which is basically an Lutheran-run orphanage on the Cherokee reservation in Oklahoma. It was an eye-opening experience. I'm originally from a rural area of Ohio just on the edge of the Rust Belt, so I had a little bit of an idea what poverty looks like. I had no idea it would be as bad as it was. Just absolutely heartbreaking.
"My life's work has been to prompt others... and be forgotten." --Cyrano de Bergerac
It has been drilled into our heads, ever since we were in elementary school, that we live in the greatest country in the world. Maybe people should actually open their eyes, and take a look around. There are plenty of other countries that are just fine. What about Norway? Or Canada? Japan? I am not saying to go and move somewhere else, or that the U.S is the worst place to live, but there are other places. Maybe we should stop believing the bullshit that is pushed into our heads without questioning it.
Freedom would be not to choose between black and white but to abjure such prescribed choices. -Theodor Adorno
Of course, any positive effect that the P-ACT may have will in the long term be counteracted by the extreme seeds of hate that the Illegal War in Iraq is creating among Muslims (actually more than just the Muslims, pretty much everyone will hate us soon). In the long haul, this administration will make us LESS safe.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not a troll.
His post included "sins of the past" and "sins of today" - see the parts about the post 9/11 internment, sexual discrimination, homophobic persecution, etc.
As for your challenge, I'm not sure why anyone would take that seriously. It's a misdirection. Instead of honestly and directly confronting the issues he brought up, you're changing the subject and trying to get him to answer a loaded question. If you're willing to ignore real social issues of the past and of today, I can only expect you to ignore them in the future. That is, until you're the victim of one of these issues.
"The japanese were put in camps because they were a security risk during a war."
Prove it.
Seriouely. How many of those imprisoned Japanese were spies or saboteurs, or terrorists intent on reducing or eliminating America's ability to wage war against Japan?
Personally, I can't recall that ANY of them were ever found guilty of such offenses.
The same has happen for men of Middle-Eastern descent. Has there been even ONE that was a true terrorist? THat was in colusion with the REAL enemy of America, UBL?
No. you are simply trying to justify your racial hatred, as your fore-fathers justified their racial hatred of negroes by claiming they were "less than human". And, like them, you will eventually be shown to be the bigotted racist you truely are.
"Being gay in the military makes the other guys uncomfortable."
I'm so sorry you are so uncertain about your manhood. Tell me...do you still giggle and act childish if you see a woman naked in public?
You obviously would have the emotional maturity of a 10 year old if being around a homosexual makes you "uncomfortable". Quite frankly, I would be far more uncomfortable around "real men" who can't even understand that what they are shooting at is a cow, when the word "cow" is written on the side of it!
And people wonder why colleges and other institutions haven't truely gone "co-ed". Most of humanity hasn't matured past an elementary grade level emotionally.
"Homosexuality is treated as the norm, when in reality, it should be classified as a mental disorder."
So has joining a cult. Yet that has become socially acceptable, too.
"When someone behaves in a way that obviously isn't natural"
1.) Define "Natural" that doesn't also mena "comforms to MY viewpoints".
2.) Since homosexuality has been documented in the "wild" (and I'm not talking about gay bars) with animals, what makes you think that humans would be somehow exempt from this?
"While gays need tolerance, they also need help to get past their disorder."
Tell me...Do you like blonde women? Brunettes? Larger women or smaller? Or maybe you just perfer pictures?
Are these "disorders"? No. These are what you were pre-programmed with.
Being raised by a homosexual does not mean you will be homosexual, just as being raised by a heterosexual means you will be heterosexual. There is more than environment at work to determine sexual preference.
The Common Cowbird (In Illinois - look it up) will lay its eggs in another bird's nest. That doesn't mean the juvenile cowbird grows up thinking it's a robin, or sparrow. It grows up KNOWING it's a cowbird, and mates with other cowbirds.
It would be the same with homosexuals. They are born "knowing" they are homosexual (even though mentally they are being beaten into submission by narrow minded fools).
Attempts to "get them past their disorder" is no more than brainwashing to make YOU feel better about yourself. It isn't there to help anyone else but you.
"And the other things you mentioned about religious/racial descrimination...those are just sad and unfortunate tendencies of human race."
You actually resign yourself to this fact, or are you happy since you appear to be on the "winning side" for now?
There are many "sad and unfortunate tendancies" of the human race. Not the least of which are violence and a desire to subjugate those not conforming to your viewpoint. The only reason this is so is because of weak-minded people who cannot see past the end of their nose.
ARG!
How can you sit there and simply ACCEPT that people are descriminated against?
You are the vilest person on the planet. YOu KNOW what you (and others) are doing is wrong, yet you perpetuate the atrocities because "it's normal human nature".
Next thing you know we'll be returning to the Burning Times, where innocent people are burned or drowned based on their beliefs!
This is NOT what America was founded for. This is, in fact, the opposite of our founding father's principles a
Could you further explain how Japanese-AMERICAN citizens are a security risk? Are you saying that during wartimes people who were born here and raised by families that were born here should be interned because they are a "security risk" based on their heritage?
Luckily the State cops TOLD you something vauable about the power output of said plant so just in case they were right about you you could have used that intel to wreak havoc in the US.
And that boys and girls is in a nutshel what the fuck is wrong with the PATRIOT act. It's an excuse for penis size challenged law enforcement shitheads to brag to you about how 'in the fucking loop they are' and how important they appear to themselves.
The thing about a police state is not so much the laws, it's the fact that everyone considers themselves YOUR cop. And cops while they do an important and needed service to the community is something we don't need too much of. Think of the people you went to high school with who became cops. Do you want them micromanaging your life?
The ACLU is fighting a portion of the Patriot act right now, however, it cannot explicitly publish the sections it is fighting due to the current P.A. forbids it!!
Let's say you or someone you knew ran afoul of some section due to an innocent action on your part. What makes you think you could legally comment/mention/inform others of your predicament? It might be that you would be locked away with no <I>rights</I> to communicate with <B>anyone</B>.
I have a question of you: Do you happen to work for our misnamed Department of Justice?
We are a people inundated with propaganda proclaiming America's superiority. Unfortunately, far too many people are willing to accept that propaganda as truth. I fear that as a society we are too lazy (or perhaps too apathetic) to go out on our own, search for facts, and form our own opinions. (Please note that I'm aware this is a gross generalization. There are many out there who do not fit into that group.) Our government supports this, in fact, counts on it for the success of its agenda. Those who choose to express a different view must be shut down. Freedom of thought causes dissension, and what government tolerates that?
Save the Children!
On behalf of Britain, I would like to make the following announcement to the people currently inhabiting the former British colonies in North America:
You broke it, you can buy us a new one. Or not. We don't really want one anymore. Colonies are so passé these days. Either way, we don't want it back unless you get it repaired first.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
http://sg1archive.com/nightmare.shtml
(I am the wife of the target of the investigation, aka "HurricaneMB" in the attached comments.)
The story was posted on slashdot a while back too, but I don't have the link at the moment. The slashdot comments critized our story for being vague. Well, duh, there's an ongoing criminal investigation. What were we supposed to do, hand the feds their case on a silver platter? Tons of reporters called asking for more details, but our laywer, who was kinda pissed that we posted anything at all on the internet, said not to talk to them. When this is all over (hopefully sometime next year), we will tell our story in much more detail.
And yes, it did influence our vote for President.
My wife and I applied for a Home Depot Expo credit card before we begin redoing our kitchen. We listed both of our incomes since together they were pretty high and because my credit is much better than that of my wife, we hoped to up her score (long story short, her credit is much better now but I digress...) Well I get a letter stating that I am approved and she can be a cardholder but they cannot issue a joint account. I call Expo's credit services to inquire why I can't have a joint account-was it my wife's credit? Was it something else... The minimum waged person answering the phone says to me: "It's because of the PATRIOT ACT." I stopped for a second, paused in disbelief, and said: "The PATRIOT ACT?" She responded: "Yes, the PATRIOT ACT." Okay so now I am angry and wondering if I am suddenly considered a terrorist threat (which after that Franks and Beans dinner last night may actually be....) I ask to speak to a supervisor... Supervisor gets on the phone, very nicely, explains that due to the increased paperwork and documentation required by the PATRIOT ACT, Home Depot and Home Depot Expo no longer give out joint accounts, only a second card for applicants spouses... I ask incredulously, "The PATRIOT ACT?" She says "Yes." Because of potential money-laundering issues, banks and other financial institutions have to keep track of every social security number and new account... Now I can understand that you can get fertilizer and diesel fuel at a Home Depot or at least the fertilizer, and borrow one of their cute little trucklets, but give me a break. If we had a joint account we'd have almost double our credit line. Now it pays for my wife to open a separate account... The worst part, Home Depot still hasn't changed their credit application and nowhere in the disclosures does it mention the lack of availability of joint accounts...
Stimpy you EEEDIOT!!!
Columbus was a greedy spaniard (PC DISCLAIMER: no offense to you greedy spaniards out there, not that all spaniards are greedy. :-D) and had no idea he had found a new continent. He was looking for a cheaper way to get to the East Indies so that he could profit by selling spices. He then found gold and the greed fed on him. Anyway, to actually correct your "facts", America was named after Americus Vespucius in 1507, a year after Columbus's death (1506).
Just thought I'd clear up a little history that people don't know before it gets rewritten again. :-D