Slashdot Mirror
How has the USA PATRIOT Act Affected You?
wetdogjp asks: "October 26th, 2004 marked the third anniversary of the Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act (or USA PATRIOT Act, as it is more commonly known). While the Slashdot crowd can certainly muster the enthusiasm to debate its pro's and con's, I'd like to know: How has the USA PATRIOT Act affected you, personally? How has it interfered with your personal and professional life? Has this act influenced your Presidential vote?"
How about it has not effected me one bit. Just like how it has not effected 99.9% of Americans.
It hasn't really affected me. I do hear some clicking in my phone every time I talk on it, but I think that's just the phoneline.
Has this act influenced your Presidential vote?
Apparently not.
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
I think we can all say with complete honesty that the USA PATRIOT Act has affected us all...few other acts have caused quite so much discussion (and flaming!) on Slashdot!
At least I know somebody else is keeping logs of my AIM conversations so I dont have to use the disk space.
I'm a Canadian that feels deeply disappointed that so many Americans can still vote for someone like Bush. Yikes!
Meh.
I have not been personally affected by the existance of the PATRIOT act as of yet.
However, in 5-10 years if the PATRIOT act is still around, I believe things will change greatly. Once the US stops chasing people around the globe these very convenient changes in rights and law will be used against everyone equally.
Not to mention: I doubt it's exactly fair to ask this question here, because anyone who actually *has* been affected by the PATRIOT act probably no longer finds themselves in a position where freedom of speech or the ability to access devices for global communication are available to them.
Apparently it does.
Completely robbed me of my faith in my country.
-Zeecog
it is another step (like the RICO laws) in creating an infrastructure that an unfriendly government could use in creative ways to screw me should they desire to.
Speaking as a purveyor of tinfoil, I can definitely state that the PATRIOT ACT has positively impacted my life and lined my pockets with green in the same manner my product lines your hats.
I used to be apathetic about government and politics. Uniniterested in 'what those wanks in Washington were doing'. The first inkling of a problem was the CDA (Communications Decency Act), which was scary, but okay, some bad legistlation is bound to happen.
:)
Then Bush and his cronies moved in, and anything even approaching preservation of civil liberties, the Constitution, or... okay, lets be honest, our dignity... went totally out the window in pursuit of idealism and Empire building.
I'm ashamed that the coutnry I live in could put a man like George Bush in power, could support a congress that would ratify such onerous legislation as the Patriot Act, and, what's worse, even consider re-electing this man. (As I type this, the US elections are still undecided).
More commentary on my blog, I'm done ranting here.
Event Management Solutions : http://www.stonekeep.com/
I have plenty of karma to burn.
Hi there
Not that I know of. But that's the whole point isn't it?
-sig removed for tax purposes-
As a Canadian, you would expect that it has NOT affected me. But in the light of recent news, I'm not so sure anymore. I'll get flamed for this, but why should your government Patriotism give them every right in MY country? Canadians are patriotic too, love they country, want to protect it, etc... did we ever invade USA citizens privacy like this? Sure, its to fight terrorism... but be careful not to damage your relations with your allies by doing so (if its not already done, with France and the Iraq war).
Eureka Science News - automatically updated
Of course, it probably has not effected that many people. But it's the precedent it sets, the proverbial "slippery slope". You know, if we don't fight to maintain our personal rights, before we know they will be gone, and we may in the future suffer for it at the hands of a government that wants to do things we can't imagine they can get away with now.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Has this act influenced your Presidential vote?
This is simple. Why I voted for Kerry:
1) President Bush empowered himself to take the civil liberties away from US Citizens. The last president I remember really hacked away at rights explicitly stated in the US Constitution was John Adams (correct me if I'm wrong). Bush claims that it will only be used on terrorists, but merely being accused of being one automatically strips you of your civil liberties. Declared guilty before proven innocent. Even Timothy McVeigh still received a lawyer and a trial.
2) President Bush guarded nothing in Baghdad except the oil refinery. I truly believed up until I read about this that "liberating" Iraq was not because of the oil, but because Saddam was hiding something up his sleeve. I tried to convince everyone I could in Egypt that it wasn't about the oil.
Signed,
Patriot Act Super-super computer systems admin.
Why would this affect my vote for president when both major candidates are in favor of the act?
Can I move up there with you?
Seriously, I am completely convinced this is entirely rigged. I've been all over the US in the last couple years, and I have met so few people who view the last four years in a positive light.
Not to mention the number of electronic voting devies used in this election, ALL (as far as I know) which have been *proven* to have hackable and faulty security. How scary is that?
We also have a system here that does not allow the majority to vote for president (majority vote in 2000 was for the other candidate who was cheated out of office).
The saddest thing of all is that, if there are really this many that prefer our current president, not many of them seem to understand that our pestering of other nations is what results in terrorism, and we ourselves are to blame. It really is so confusing and sad to see your fellow humans this way.
Oh, and it's AFFECTED, not EFFECTED.
/sarcasm
Let's see... They gave me shit about my laser pointer at the SFO airport when the PNS airport did not...
I couldn't take my keychain knife with me on the plane anymore... and I know that if I ever use a library, it will GREATLY concern me that the FBI can find out what I checked out now with one less hoop to jump through than before.
Damn you Ashcroft and Bush!
This will be tagged as flamebait.
I had a sucky sig.
surely it would be less misleading to call it the 'u sap at riot' act?
(disclaimer; I read that one in someone elses comment on slashdot some time ago in a whole nother article).
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
The moment it adversely affects a fellow American citizen, I feel just as outraged as if it had affected me.
Does the Patriot Act keep me from FP'ing?
No, but being slow at the keyboard does. You're a whole minute behind. ;)
"Sometimes a man's gotta do what a woman wouldn't consider." - Red Green
I havn't been directly effected by it, other then being informed by governement agencies that I was repsonsible for maintaining certiant logs of/for my users (I at the time ran an ISP/Hosting firm)...
A friend of mine, a photographer was arrested and 10k in equipment confinscated under the patriot act, he still hasnt gotten it back...
A friend of my brothers set up Kiosk's in malls, very nice work for alot of cash he made a joke to one of the other workers that he worked with alquida and there was a confrence there that month, less than an hour later multiple agents of several agencies showed up at the mall he was working, took him to his home, where they searched it and questioned him for hours, he now isnt allowed in any mall in the US and tons of other lame legal resitrictions imposed on him just for JOKEINGLY saying he was in the alquida to a coworker.. I know its not something to joke about, but he cant even get another job anywhere now, hes nationally blackedlisted for nothing, a bit overkill even for a joke that shouldnt have been made...
Yeah, and you're still on /.! Once again...
How has the USA PATRIOT Act Affected You?
A couple of months ago, I went into a bank to sign up for a checking account. Since I am under 18, my parent's were going to be co-signers of the checking account with me. I was told that I wouldn't be able to open an account without a state ID. At the time, I didn't have a state ID or driver's license, and so I was promptly told that I couln't open an account. I know most people have driver's licenses so it's not a problem for them, but for people under 18, it is another hurdle.
At a time when some of our compatriots were dazzled by America and hoping that these visits would have an effect on our countries, all of a sudden he (Bush Sr.) was affected by those monarchies and military regimes, and became envious of their remaining decades in their positions, to embezzle the public wealth of the nation without supervision or accounting.
So he took dictatorship and suppression of freedoms to his son and they named it the Patriot Act, under the pretence of fighting terrorism.
- Osama bin Ladin
And besides having computers in that there jail, I was wondering, do you have wi-fi?
Anyone seen my jagged little pill?
I haven't been affected... yet...
In Wisconsin I voted for Feingold, the only senator to vote against the PATRIOT Act, for that very reason.
Badnarik's take on it:
A party organizer told the candidate they'd have to leave to make his flight. So, would Badnarik repeal the Patriot Act? "In a heartbeat," he answered. "In a heartbeat." Then, despite the time, he couldn't resist expounding: "Technically, I cannot repeal the Patriot Act, because in Marbury v. Madison, a Supreme Court decision from 1803, the Supreme Court ruled that any law repugnant to the Constitution is null and void," he said. "And it is null and void from the day you enact it, not from the day you discover it's unconstitutional. So from my point of view, the Patriot Act does not exist," he said. Source
I fear my government.
Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
I do work for a financial services company and it just means increased paperwork. Personally, I have nothing to hide, so I'm not too concerned. That doesn't mean I like the idea of it.
Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.
Well, perhaps it bears reminding you then that BOTH Bush AND Kerry came out in support of the suggested "part 2" of the original Patriot Act. In fact, when questioned about the details, Bush said he would be "largely in support of it, with a few changes" while Kerry said he was in total support of the bill, as-is.
I'm an American who is deeply disappointed that more people can't see past the B.S. that is our current 2-party system and place a vote for the Libertarians.
Insanity, as they say, is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results.....
No impact, discounting longer lines at airports. No big deal there. I've been to shopping malls in other countries where everyone who entered was patted down and checked with a metal detector. I had airlines remove 3-inch rounded scissors from my carryon years before it started happening here. I didn't like it then, and I don't like it now. But, I dislike it a lot less than getting on a plane with some loon with a bomb.
And, no, it didn't change the way I voted. I won't consider voting for Republicans until they stop pretending to channel God.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
As somebody with nothing to hide, why are you posting AC? ;)
Yes, because after all "rights" and "freedoms" were not designed so you could do things the government doesn't approve of, and the only people who care about them must pretty much be terrorists anyway. What kind of a weirdo doesn't want the government to have unlimited power to go through their shit? The kind with something to hide of course!
Which is worse: ignorance or apathy? Who knows? Who cares?
I was under the impression that part of the joy of the Patriot Act was that you wouldn't know how your life was touched by it. Or you'd find out about it after it was too late to be posting to slashdot about how you've been touched by it.
If not now, when?
The main reason you don't hear anything is because it is one of the provisions of the patriot act.
You are not allowed to discuss any charges brought against you. You can be held without council. You can be held indefinately.
Why do you think the ACLU/EFF couldn't talk about their case against the Patriot Act?
If your civil liberties die in a country with no one around to defend it, do you make a sound?
~X~
"You have rights....then you have wrongs."
~X~
It's made me aware of government intercepts in ISP's, so I've setup postfix, cyrus, courier and sendmail wherever I use them to use SSL whenever possible. I also finally bought a real cert (from InstantSSL for $50).
I suppose Carnivore and Echelon were there before Patriot but it didn't wake me up as much.
It bothers me personally and politically, yet there was no candidate I could vote for who was against Patriot and for Preemption. In the end, Patriot was lower on my scale. You could say I like my terrorism policy like my operating systems - preemptive rather than cooperative.
I'm firmly of the opinion that no matter what we do to try to protect the country there is a way around those measures. Short of locking everybody in their houses there are opportunities for terrorists to strike.
So we shouldn't step on _any_ civil liberties of Citizens and we should be on the offensive.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
I'm sure that the people effected most by the PATRIOT Act aren't reading /.
Do they have broadband in Guantanamo?
... as the perfect followup! I love that the consensus, at least insofar as I have read, is "oh yeah it isn't affecting me one dang bit". The ACLU is trying hard to convince you otherwise, but they're not succeeding.
What are we supposed to do, wait until a few million people _are_ affected by bad laws before suggesting they are not in our best interests? That sort of thinking got us the War on Drugs and millions of citizens spending time in prison and law enforcement constantly expanding its scope to try to enforce fundamentally unenforcable laws. Most americans weren't affected by the Alien and Seditions Acts. Most americans in the north weren't affected by slavery laws. Most germans weren't affected by the Nuremburg laws. Just because it doesn't screw over >50% of the population in the first 3 years of its existence doesn't mean that it shouldn't be fought. Particularly when the law itself demands that any uses and abuses be kept hidden from the public.
Dyolf Knip
Doesn't bother me in the least.
"Whenever the cause of the people is entrusted to professors, it is lost." ~ V.I. Lenin
Noam Chomsky has affected me far more deeply than the Patriot Act. His views on this country repeatedly find me picking my jaw up off of the floor and compleetly revising everything I had previously assumed about this country.
After reading Chomsky, the Patriot Act doesn't surprise me.
My friend was taken away in about 5 minutes to some secret underground interrogation room, and didn't come back for about 3 hours.
I was questioned at the scene about any knowledge I had about blank checks and my friend's connection to terrorist organizations.
The police asked to search my car, and when I refused, I was suddenly surrounded by members of the SWAT team, dogs, machine guns and all.
They searched my car with me on the ground at gun point (during rush hour in downtown DC, no less!), and needless to say, found no fake checks.
When all was said and done, the man in charge of the Anti-Terrorism Task Force/Secret Service Police shook my hand and thanked me for doing a great service to America, and a great service for freedom. My pleasure.
Apparently, someone with a grudge against my friend had called a contact at the treasury dept. and told him that we were all involved in a money laundering scheme. They take those threats pretty seriously.
Oh yeah, they also stole the chinese food I had brought home for lunch :(
No heaven can heaven be, if my horse isn't there to welcome me.
The ones it really effected have been sitting in Gitmo, or other military prisons without trial or charge or representation for 2 years +. They can't see the computer monitor with those black hoods on. And their karma is going stagnant too.
Ding!
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free."
-- Ronald Reagan
If we allow the patriot act to stick around a while, unchallenged, we could very well see the USA come to where Mr. Reagan said it would.
Much of what makes the act so insidious is that you won't know if it does.
"Geeks of All Nations, Compile!"
"We are Null Pointer of Borg: Dereference is futile!"
The Patriot Act added a new rule for banks that forces them not to let you cash a check that's signed to anything other than your own name.
At first glance, this might seem like "no big deal" or even "a good idea" - but think a little more about this. I've seen several shareware authors already becoming negatively affected by this rule. (Often-times, another party was collecting shareware payments for the actual author, and depositing them for him/her. This is most often seen where a software developer lives in a country other than the U.S. but sells much of his/her product in the U.S. via the web. He/she often had a friend in the U.S. act as his/her "agent", collecting up the U.S. funds and taking care of their deposits.)
This rule concerns me much more directly because I do on-site computer service for a living. Sometimes, a customer ends up buying a used computer part directly from me, instead of wanting to buy something new that's sold to them through our business. It used to be, I could just take their check, written out to our business name, deposit it in my personal account if needed, and write a new check to my employer for the difference between what they owed for the service work and the part they bought from me. Now, I'm not so sure I can do that anymore? Technically, it sounds like the Patriot Act makes it illegal for me to deposit the check made out to our business name.....
You....don't...expect.
Until suddenly you protest the government, and they lock you up for being a "potential terrorist".
You are incredibly naive. I'm sure the lawyer who was accused of being terrorist and had his life put through a living hell would totally agree with you.
The funny thing is, the government's definition of enemy changes quite frequently, and drastically.
And sometimes, even something such as a humorous blog will get you a visit from the SS.
Obey. You are a good citizen.
~X~
"If it doesn't affect me, it must be good for my country."
~X~
Wow. They let you use computers in jail? I wish they let us use computers in the prison I am in.
You may ask how I am typing this. This is very simple.
1. I have created a time machine in prison using a plastic fork and toilet paper. I traveled to the future and read your post. I then read my reply to your post and copied it down on a piece of paper.
2. I then proceeded to travel to the present time. I am currently writing my future comment.
3. Thats about it. Right now I am going to drive to jail and break myself out. Hey wait that's the reason I am in jail. I was caught aiding the escape of a convict. I am going to attempt a Double Jeopardy defense but I already know it won't work.
Though the Patriot Act specifically hasn't affected me in any way I realize, the mentality the War on Terror brought to law enforcement, manifested in the Patriot Act, has.
In the summer of 2002 my family was in the middle of selling a house, and potential buyers were often touring, checking things out.
One couple with a digital camera was photographing the interior when they opened my room closet and discovered my trusty potato gun. They decided it was a device of terror, photgraphed it, and forwarded the images to the state police when they got home. My family and I didn't know until the next day, when some serious looking dudes showed up.
Luckily the police were relatively reasonable and left without incident, but the whole thing was disconcerting.
I came to realize that I feared the self-deputized public more than any law they could come up with in Washington. Whenever the terror level goes up, and citizens are told to "be watchful," what does that really mean? Eyeball dark-skinned people with foreign-looking head-dress, or poke around someone's house sneaking out pictures to send to the police?
I'll give our leadership the benefit of the doubt, and presume that they're not entirely aware of the shift in public thought they're sponsoring. I couldn't propose a much better way of handling it all, either. I just know that as an individual, living in America after 9/11, it's starting to be weird and suck and I hope that it doesn't get any worse.
However, it did make me think, "What if they spent as long finding ways to prevent terrorism as they did finding words to fit into the acronym "USA PATRIOT?"
the word "homeland" makes me think it's Germany in 1938.
Oh, I'm sure the FBI has a huge dossier on me, including such sinister information as which library books I checked out last week (is it a crime to like Terry Pratchett?), what international flights I've taken recently, and what colour underwear I'm currently wearing. But I haven't heard a thing about said dossier and it doesn't bother me.
Hasn't affected my vote, either.
#!/bin/sh
;;
;;
case $Election_Outcome in
Kerry )
echo "The Patriot Act has had a significant impact on my life. Some of it has been indirect, like the Wiccan friend (who was my friend before she was even Wiccan) in another part of the country who warned me that knowing her might jepoardize my clearance...it already had for some of her other friends. And the only reason why is because of her affiliation with a Wiccan coven. I'd point out that the Supreme Court has ruled that Wicca is a valid religion, and that covens are eligible for tax-exempt status as such."
Bush )
"Ah, the glorious Patriot Act! It has done nothing but brought cheer and happiness to me since it was first conceived. My papers are in order, ja?"
esac
For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
It has dampened my fondness for overwrought acronymns. A little.
But I know six people who were arrested for walking down the road at night and held for 48 hours before being released with no charges. They were able to claim their belongings a few months later.
In addition to that, two people (one of them included in the above group) were told be security guards that they couldn't photograph a hospital. Reason the guard gave? PATRIOT Act. When the police were called they instructed the two people to delete the photos and hand over the film.
And lastly a friend was told by FBI(?) agents that photographing an oil refinery, from public property, was not allowed.
In the past, I have had many web companies opened as Schedule C busineses.
Now, because of the Patriot aAct, opening a small business forces you to fill out so many extra forms so the government can track your money, you almost need to hire a lawyer.
Now, do you REALLY think they want to track terror money? NO! What they want to do it make sure you report all your income.
Fine. I do anyway, but call a spade a spade. Don't wrap this crap in a bill called the Patriot Act.
MC
Besides making me take John Titor's claims a little more seriously, not at all (that I know of).
I'm going to assume this isn't a troll. If it IS and I bit... well, good on ya.
How do you recognize an American on sight?
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
There were reasons that these powers granted by the Act were withheld. If you haven't been affected by the patriot act. And you feel it is necessary to have such power granted to law enforcement, then I'm asking you to rent an A&E biography covering J. Edgar Hoover. Or maybe you can catch something on another cable show etc. Either way that show will contain pretty much all you need to know about the USA Patriot Act.
The problem with the Patriot Act is that often someone does not even know that heir privacy is being violated. Checks and balances that were put into place for a reason are stripped away leaving the possibility for abuse. I cannot say that my rights have been violated but its not like government agencies post a list of the records that they scour. I feel this legislation was hastily passed and makes me question (more so) how well our country is run. If only Slashdot types ruled the world(and their alien overlords)...
I have to swim through a bunch of paranoid rambling about it on slashdot.
Seriously though, I'm scared of the Patriot act, and I think it needs revision at least, but most of the bitching I hear about it is probably crap.
I *am* very worried about how a hillary '08 administration would use this broad, overreaching power though . . .
So, I think it's more positive than negative, though I realize that won't be a popular opinion on /.
Will this really affect me in any meaningful way? Probably not. However it's still a little weird.
Most of us know better, but there are so many people blinded by BOTH sides lies and misstruths, that instead of it being awhat you beleived in issue its become a right or wrong issue and when it comes to issues like that, the guy who "saved America" is going to win, even if he sat on his ass when we knew we where going to be attacked.
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
In the UK we've got The Terrorism Act (ie. an act of terrorism against the people), is our equivalent.
This means that my significant other, who is not a UK or EU (or US) citizen, can be thrown in prison without charge, kept indefinately and eventually released, WITHOUT EVER being told what it was all about. Since the British government always does what its Washington,DC. masters always tells it, then I could very easily be directly affected by our own PATRIOT ACT.
The CENSORED act has not affected ma at all. I work at CENSORED and we have no CENSORED. I have noticed no difference in my life at CENSORED since theCENSORED act came to be. I can even process CENSORED reports and look at all the files in the CENSORED. I do not believe that the act has caused any censorship or CENSORED on the part of CENSORED . Any on who think they are affected adversely onlt need to lodge a complaint with the bureau of CENSORED. You can e-mail them at CENSORED@CENSORED . You can also reach them via the url www.CENSORED.CENSORED Respectfully, CENSORED
echo $SIG
As so many have pointed out before, the PATRIOT Act is written so that it bypasses virtually all the normal safeguards, so that if you violate the Act, chances are good that you won't be able to tell anybody about it.
This is, in my opinion, the real reason why the PATRIOT Act is such an abomination: Federal law enforcement can declare you a terrorist, lock you up, and cite the PATRIOT Act, and nobody can question their evidence because there's no evidence to question. There is no reason why an unscrupulous administration couldn't quickly and easily make some random person disappear under the PATRIOT act. That person could be a rogue senator, a high-profile political dissident, or the staff of a website that offends said administration. Or, it could just be an actor from a movie the Attorney General didn't like. As far as I can tell, it doesn't matter.
That's not to say that the PATRIOT Act was written with such activities in mind, or even that the Bush administration would like to have such a law around. I think it was a well-meaning piece of legislation that was just written too broadly. However, the ability is there and I would rather not risk having a malicious administration abuse it.
Similarly, I would like to see Kerry win the election. Not because I think Bush is a power-hungry tyrant, but because I think his administration is dangerously reckless in its decision-making.
The world can be wrong today for once.
Except for that Oklahoma City bombing, of course.
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Whatever happened to "Think Globally, Act Locally"? I don't have to have an issue affect me directly to have a strong opinion on the matter. If more people looked beyond their own concerns and considered the big picture more often, we'd be better off.
Its pissed me off.
Luckily there are things my school is doing to try to limit any damage the Patriot Act could cause to foreign students (or any students) on campus. Here is a resolution that passed the academic senate unanimously at UCSC that instructs the chancellor to implement various policies to limit the damage Patriot Act requests can do. For example, it asks that library records be destroyed as soon as possible so they cannot be obtained by silent Patriot Act requests. If you are a student, ask what your school is doing about academic freedom and the Patriot Act. If the answer is "nothing", help make something happen. Join a committee as a student representative, or write letters to your chancellor or president.
How has the USA PATRIOT Act affected you, personally?
Lost faith in the Republican party.
How has it interfered with your personal and professional life?
I have not applied for any jobs at a library, despite the fact that I'd like such a job, on the off chance that the FBI would come by for some records and I'd get thrown in jail for obstruction of justice.
Has this act influenced your Presidential vote?
Yes.
Maybe not entirely due to the patriot act, but as a Canadian whose currency is now worth far more relative to the US dollar than it has been in my memory, I've decided I can use this opportunity to spend some of my pesos buying stuff in the US. I have friends in europe experiencing the same phenomenon...
I for one, welcome our new PATRIOT Act overlords... Ummm, wait, never mind.
I live in a state that shares a border with Canada. Because of the act or just the general beefing up of security, I am still here. I have not been car bombed or kidnapped.
-]Phreak Out[-
he's a self proclaimed war president. who doesn't like war? especially pre-emptive offensive ones, where many innocents & soldiers are dying. but it was a war on the concept of 'terror.' well at least the first country, Afghanistan, was involved. luckily, he kept up an atmosphere of fear & had the country terrified.
USA PATRIOT Act. I had too many Constitutional rights, freedoms, & liberties. I can spare a few, can't you? whatever idiot* said 'Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.' probably had no experience. The ACLU can't even discuss their case against the gov ABOUT the USA PATRIOT Act. no one will deny, thats pretty awesome!
Attorney General Ashcroft. I don't even feel like bringing up legit reasons like covering boobs on statues OF the personification of Justice. (the turn on almost caused me to rape.) crisco, anyone?
I don't like people to express opinions if they are different from my own. even if they do it peacefully & respectfully. of course, I am assuming those in power will always hold the same views as I do. Love America, Hate Bush
* Ben Franklin
I influenced people to vote for Nader and Badnarik. As a very libertarian student, I hate the PATRIOT act. But does it even affect me as a student, apart from the obvious (CIA listening to me call my friends for homework, ect.)
It's a major bitch to open a new bank account now.
Not to mention obtaining/transferring a driver's license...
It has motivated me to start planning to emigrate (i.e., *from* the USA).
This country will never again be the country where I grew up.
PLEASE tell me you just forgot the <sarcasm> and </sarcasm> tags!
--- Asking inconvenient questions for over 30 years...
I have to say that the Patriot Act, and President Bush telling me I'm unpatriotic for opposing it, has definitely affected my vote. Not only did I not vote for a single Republican, but I swear that I will never vote for another one again. EVER! Unfortunately it appears that The Al Quida recruitment poster-boy will get to remain in office for another four years. Bush has pissed off more Muslims in four years than the previous four or five presidents combined and in the future, after he and Cheney have made their millions off of the war in Iraq, the repurcusions will befall the rest of us.
Restore America: Dr. Ron Paul for President!
The USAPATRIOT act may not have affected me in any material way, but it has affected me in some very serious ways, namely a loss of faith in some of the basic principles that make up my idea of what America IS.
By allowing expanded powers to the investigative branches of the government with only minimal oversight by the judicial branch, the act undermines my protections under the 4th amendment. Sneak-and-peak warrants have been allowed under the FISA and criminal statutes since the late 60's, with probable cause, and with bench approval.
Now, however, the standards have been lowered to a point that the average citizen can have their private records and personal affects searched (and bugged) for, what would have been in the past, only minimally suspicious behaviors. Imagine, for instance, that you are a student researching a paper for a comparative religion class that takes you into the realm of researching reasons, justifications, and methods used by suicide bombers/terrorists. With only the barest of oversight, the government now has the right to partake of surveillance that would have been considered "beyond the pale" only 3 years ago.
My biggest complaint, however, has nothing to do with the above. It has to do with the "Enemy Combatant" detainments that have been an ongoing problem in the judicial system. Under the 6th amendment, we have the right to a speedy and public trial. By right, we have for the last 200+ years enjoyed this protection under the bill of rights. Now, though, if the government can come up with a reason to label you an enemy combatant, they can hold you for an indefinite time in an undisclosed location, with no access to legal counsel.
At one point in the past, I was a Muslim. I frequented a mosque that I discovered (many years after the fact) was frequented by "unsavory" types that were recruiting people to fight in one of the earlier Palestinian Intifada's. Do I now have to forever look o'er my shoulder to see if I am being followed? Maybe.
Both of the above situations are also are protected by the 14th amendment (due process), but this due process has been undermined by the USA Patriot act.
How can we truly call ourselves the land of the free when we allow our constitutional freedoms to be circumvented by acts of congress?
== That terrible green-green grass, and violent blooms of flower dresses, and afternoons that make me sleepy.==
"How has the USA PATRIOT Act affected you, personally?"
It's pissed me off. In a truly democratic society, it shouldn't need more than that.
The Patriot Act had nothing to do with my vote for pres, however, I live in WI and Russ Feingold is up for re-election. I do support him, especially after he had the balls to stand up against the Patriot Act. We need more independent senators like Feingold that can think for themselves and not give in to peer pressure. Thankfully they just announced that Feingold has been declared the winner in his race.
The US has allies?
In my area, the banks give you a "free" checking account on pretty lousy terms. "Free" checking means you get charged a fee for all but the basic services.
My friend has a bank account with a bank from a different area, which has really nice terms. Free checks, free ATM transactions regardless of whose ATM you use, and they even refund you fees other banks charge you!
Before the PATRIOT Act went into effect, I could easily open a bank account with a bank by just signing a form and providing my personal info. Now, I have to actually visit a bank branch in person. (It's about 1000 miles away.)
Not sure how this has affected eTradeBank.
... and who doesn't live in the country:
The Patriot act has made me decide to never go to the US. There's a lot of stuff I'd like to see and do there, but I will never enter the US as long as Bush is in power and legislation like the DCMA and the Patriot Act are law.
/mike
-- "So, what's the deal with Auntie Gerschwitz et all?"
By race. You assume if they aren't white suburbia, they are foreign nationals or something and card them. Sounds very, um, democratic, eh?
On non-commercial channels in the US you may have seen an educational series called "The Western Tradition",b er
by Eugen Weber, a renowned UCLA history scholar from Romania with a fascinating verbal style and voice,
something like Jacob Bronowski.
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/history/we
"Western Tradition" was produced in 1988 but is still frequently broadcast.
Here's something he said 16 years ago, in a segment about the decline and fall of the Roman empire...
"It has always been a problem, for a society faced by a serious challenge,
to decide just what measures it can take, and how far it can go,
in opposing and meeting that challenge.
If you argue that you can only preserve your way of life
by adopting certain means which *negate* that way of life --
that you can only preserve democracy or free speech by limiting them, for example --
or preserve liberty by regimentation, or moral order by inquisition --
then you run the risk of sacrificing exactly the things you say you are fighting for.
You run the risk of sacrificing precisely those things
that you used to justify the sacrifices in the first place.
And you risk becoming so like your enemy, that the differences matter very little."
Congratulations, you've just proven that you've never actually read the Patriot Act! The Patriot Act does not provide for indefinite imprisonment of anyone, and does not provide for being held without council.
Before you scream about civil liberties dying, why don't you actully read what you are complaining about before spouting off nonsense?
SIG:Slashdot: indymedia for nerds.
As one poster pointed out, you wouldn't have caught Timothy McVeigh with your scheme.
You also wouldn't have caught the dude that burned all those churches in the South a few years back, nor any of the abortion-clinic bombers, nor would you have prevented the Columbine Massacre, not to mention the Kittamer Massacre.
Unfortunately, in the USA, we have cheapened citizenship so much that there is almost no difference in privileges and rights claimed by non-citizens and a citizens in the USA.
The declaration of independence sorta sets the stage. It is a legal document that declares our freedom from Britain. Personally, I'd like to see the Brits point out how we've failed to meet our promises in said Declaration, and that means ownership of the country reverts back to them. Wouldn't that be fun? Anyway, the Declaration of Independence says something about holding certain rights to be inalienable, and says *nothing* about "inalienable only for american citizens, but foreigners don't enjoy these rights in our land".
This country was built by immigrants. To treat foreigners like you would treat them is to spit on our own roots, and then, of course, we can never go home again.
Like what I said? You might like my music
Unfortunately, in the USA, we have cheapened citizenship so much that there is almost no difference in privileges and rights claimed by non-citizens and a citizens in the USA.
except for that whole voting business, unless i missed something?
oh, and terrorism isn't the exclusive domain of non-citizens. a couple of fellas from middle america managed to take down the oklahoma city building, for one. terrorism is the business of folks who dislike the administration or the country and want to do something substantial about it.
feel free to start persecuting immigrants and see how fast your economy tanks. turning your back on the traditional strength of the US (attracting those looking for a better life and willing to work hard for it) is a great idea.
yeesh. i should be smacked for feeding the troll...
It determined my vote.
Because Kerry voted for the DMCA (and Bush supports it) I voted Green.
Ed Craig "Who cares what you think?" George W. Bush, 4th of July 2001
" indefinite imprisonment of anyone,
Material Witness.....
The problem is they go too hardcore and also often act like assclowns. I mean if you asked me what party I was, I'd have to say Libertarian. Their general views seem to match my general views on the majority of issues. Problem is the party itself gets all extreme about them, and that's just not a way to break in to the current system.
Then they also pull stupid ass stunts that make them look immature. In Arizona, they got an order to show cause as to why they were excluded from the debates. Now they actually had a legit argument. See the presidential debates have 3 requirements to get in:
1) You have to actually be elegible (as in native citizen, of proper age, etc) to be president.
Seems good, I mean if you are disqualified form running, no point in you participating in the debates. Badnarik meets this one.
2) You have to be on the ballot in enough states to theoritically be able to win a majority of the EC.
Also seems good. You have to win a majority (or be elected by the House of Representitives if there is no majority winner) to become president, so if you aren't on enough ballots ot get it, you aren't really in the running. Badnarik also met this.
3) You have to have shown a fairly large popular support, I think to the effect of 10%.
Ok well this one is problematic. Seems to me that keeps it a 2-party game. I mean popular support could very well be gained in the debates. Badnarik did not meet this.
So there was a legit reason to take this to court. They probably would have lost, but it is a worthy challenge. Good idea right? Er, no.
They didn't actually do it to get it to court. They waited till the night of the debate, and then attempted to force their way in and have Badnarik serve the papers. Well that does fuck-all good. For one, you can't serve papers for a lawsuit you are involved in, and it wouldn't do any good anyhow since the debate was already happening. Badnarik even stated the whole stunt was just to get arrested and get publicity.
Well between the extreme Libretarian position and the asshattery of things like this, they just ruin their chances.
I really wish that they'd mellow out, become more moderate and get serious. I think they could become a credible threat if they did. However as it stands they are basicalyl just a fringe party. I know a lot of people that consider themselves Libertarian and I don't know any of them that considered voting for Badnarik.
It killed my father and raped my mother.
I'm an American who is deeply disappointed that more people can't see past the B.S. that is corporate capitalism.
When I moved to Sweden, I had a hard time finding a good job (I'm almost there). Thus, it was hard to get Swedish credit. I used my U.S. credit card to purchase things that we needed in the home or for the baby (now babies). However, I had trouble paying them, because Swedish banks don't use checks and my CC company won't allow non-U.S. banks to make electronic payments.
So I asked my dad to get me another account (with Internet banking) with my old bank. He tried but wasn't allowed to do so for someone who lives outside of the U.S. because of the Patriot Act. I would have to apply in person (not going to happen, we can't afford 4 plane tickets).
Your logic doesn't make any sense.
Lack of terrorist attacks != Result of the Patriot Act.
Prove to me it would be any different if the Patriot Act had not passed.
What?
The most pernicious and insidious effects of the Patriot Act may be that people aren't sure how this speciously-named legistlation will hurt them until it does.
Last week, I was told I couldn't open a bank account unless I had a major credit card (debit card's didn't count) - in spite of the fact that I presented a US passport and a state ID. I was outraged, and I was told this was due to the Patriot Act. I went to another bank, and didn't have a problem. Maybe its because, at the second bank, I was the same race as the bank representative.
After the patriot act passed, the ISP I was working for had a large increase in requests for information, from various official sources. Pulling the requested information from our logs took many man-hours, and several tens of thousands of dollars worth of dedicated hardware. (We logged a lot of information, on the order of gigabytes per hour)
The hell with it! In fact, let them look through my desk at work whenever they want! Who cares! Hey, it's cool, you wanna search my house next? Go ahead, as long as you do it when I don't know about it! I'm not doing anything wrong, so who cares about privacy? I don't! More power to you!
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
It's made me realize that Struggling To Unite Populations In Distress, America's Completely Relying On Nationalistic Yet Moronic Symbolism.
It allowed my former employer to wrongfully terminate me based on a false accusation but I could not pursue the wrongful termination because they turned their accusations over to the FBI forcing me to shut-up. Accouding to Jenifer Granick at Stanford Law School's Center for Internet and Society "As a general rule, I believe that it is extremely dangerous to give information to the FBI without any immunity agreement or promises. Its my experience also that they can not necessarily be counted on to understand computer cases well." Bottom line - I got screwed.
Thats debatable. The language used in the constitution (and more importantly, the bill of rights) imply that most rights apply to non-citizens.
Most importantly regarding the current treatment of non-citizen "terrorists":
Amendment V : No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Amendment VI : In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
Amendment XIV Section 1 : All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
You'll note that at other points in the Constitution and its amendments, when it means citizen, it SAYS citizen.
The US Patriot Act has caused me to fear my government even more than normal. Now, when I work on my projects, even if I am not actually a terrorist, I worry that I may be labled as such. Is this the way a law abiding citizen should feel at home?
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
This would be the same country that was built on slavery, that had racial segregation and which treated blacks as second class citizens until only a few decades ago, that still treats its indigenous peoples as worse than second class citizens in many aspects, that has clear sexual discrimination in the workplace (women still earn less than men), that has clear homophobic discrimination in government (gays in the military), that has a President that wants to discriminate further against gays (gay marriage), that has illegal internment of anyone with even partial Japanese heritage (during WWII) and McCarthyism (when freedom of expression went out the window) in its recent past and has now resorted to illegal internment and religious McCarthyism again.
Yeah, because nothing could ever be shown to have been held unfairly against anyone at anytime in America's recent history, could it?
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
No effect whatsoever.
You do not talk about the Patriot act.
"Im such a nonconformist I'm going to not conform to the rest of you!"
"Dude I think we just got goth-served"
a couple of years ago i signed up on sharebuilder.com and set it to automatically buy apple every month (when it was at $30) a couple of weeks later they called me asking for more identification like my SS card and tax information. because of the patriot act.
sadly i was unable to provide them with my information, and they sold my shares (they were already up!) and gave me back the money i had given them (none of my profit) making me disillusioned with dealing with the stock market.
blech
Don't call me back. Give me a call back. Bye. So yeah. But bye our, well, but alright we are on a shirt this chill.
Your only hope is to have it shot down in the Supreme Court now. Both parties have been pushing for this for some time. The People had already spoken. We consistently and emphatically told them 'hell no'. Three strikes, you're out, right? Oh no! Now the world's a different place with all the terrorists running about! Privacy is great an all, but the founding fathers could hardly anticipate terrorism! Get with the program you whining liberal pinkos! Now the FBI can sign their own warrant, sneak into your home, plant bugs and video cameras, and basically make Amendment 4 null and void.
May I make one suggestion; Would you be so kind as to change your name from FBI to KGB and give up any pretense? Thanks.
All Slashdot posts will be reviewed by the FBI...
Any post insulting the RNC, or claim that America isn't the greatest, free country, George Bush isn't smart, and/or there aren't WMD in Iraq will be investigated.
with the PATRIOT ACT, except that the damn Internet connection down here in Guantanamo keeps flaking out on me, plus I only have a few minutes of 'exercise', anyway, before they put me back in my cage for another 72 hours. ;>
I can't believe what a bunch of nerds we are. We're looking up "money laundering" in the dictionary.
PATRIOT is legislated intrusion into your privacy, but it's not just the government that you have to worry about abusing this newly created power.
The PATRIOT Act has affected me quite personally.
I'm a high school senior. This summer, I was in Ithaca visiting Cornell. After our visit to the campus, we decided to do some exploring of the area, because it's really quite lonely up there but also quite quaint. We figured we could find a cute little town down by the lake there. We decided to check out Aurora on Route 90.
Well, we turned down another road by accident. It was unmarked and at a 10% grade downhill. We wound up at the lake, certainly, but not in Aurora. We found ourselves at a power plant. Obviously, we knew we were in the wrong place, so we stopped.
My dad suggested I get out of the car and take some pictures. The sun was setting and the area was terribly scenic. At this time, another car, a dark sedan that had been following us down the road, made a quick turnaround. I proceeded to get out of the car and take some pictures. My dad called me back, so I ran back to the car, and we drove off. That was at 7:38 pm.
Fast forward to 11pm. My family is at the hotel, and my sister and I are trying to go to sleep. For reference, we have two adjoining rooms, one for my parents and one for me and my sister. Somebody bangs on my parents' door saying he's with the state police. My sister and I heard it and we assumed it was a joke.
It wasn't a joke at all. The New York State Police really came into my parents' room and started questioning them. My sister and I had sort of gotten up and were listening through the door. Keep in mind that at this time I'm in my pajamas and without my contacts. The officers notice someone next door, and we come into my parents' room.
The State Police were investigating a possible terrorist threat: me.
My dad had been talking for me, but there were inconsistencies in his story. Obviously. He wasn't the one taking the pictures after all. I didn't remember exactly what happened, as in which picture I took in what order, because it wasn't as if I thought I would need to know that.
THe officers want to see my camera, so my dad goes and gets it from the car. I'm in tears, because here I am, half blind and not dressed, being accused of being a TERRORIST.
I showed them my camera, and they thought it was digital, but it's not; it only appears so because it's got a large LCD status display on the back. (Thank goodness I stick to film, because I don't want to think about what might've happened to me had it been a digital camera.)
The entire scene at the plant had been recorded by a security camera, and the way the other car was there coupled by how I ran back to the car and how quickly my dad turned around made our behavior seem very suspicious.
The police told me that that power plant supplies one-sixteenth of the power to the East Coast and that knocking it out would leave millions without power for months. My case was especially worsened by the fact that there had been a legitimate threat against another area plant that same day. They told us we were lucky they found us: they'd had to stop a bulletin going out to the whole East Coast looking for our car. If they hadn't, the next day we would have been surrounded by 20 state police cars with guns to our heads. If that's not a threat, I don't know what is.
They wanted my film. I used up the last shot on the roll just by taking a picture of the floor, and then I handed the film over. The fact that I had fourth amendment rights never occurred to me. I was quite frankly scared out of my mind. Other people I've told said they would have refused, but my life had just been threatened. I think that's the part they don't get.
So they took my film and left. I couldn't sleep for quite a while and was quite visibly upset through the next day.
I'm still paranoid about police.
It took me quite some time to realize that I had done nothing wrong. There were no signs of warning or anything near the power plant. No "Authoriz
Well, if Osama Bin Ladin says it, it must be true.
"Your security is in your own hands."
~Osama Bin Laden
* not downloading porn because I know they will use it against me
* not speaking my mind in email because I know they intercept emails-- who heads Level (3), the first Iraqi administrator
* I'm a mail admin: never deleting a mail log at work because I don't want to lable a computer dfw2snfbi01... wait they're windows, dfw2wnfbi01
* secure delete and shred are my friends
* regretting renting Fareinheit 9/11, but because of the content or the message, but because I think my name will be thrown into some database
* actually thinking about trying to get an outsourced job in Ireland or Canada
* really pissed when I realized that my vote has never counted since I've voted (for the last 20 years)
* amazed at my level of paranoia
* deleting all viloent refereces
* finally getting an answer to the question I asked my German friend 20 years ago, "How could have the people supported Hitler, it doesn't make sense"
* renaming USA to Branch Americans, and moving to Waco.
After I got my letter from RBC saying my credit card info now processed in Georgia in the United States and was subject to info request of the Patriot Act. I cancelled my card and went with a different card provider here in Canada. What rubs me was that I got the impression that it wasnt the need for a request, but that as the transactions were comming in they were being copied over to homeland security. Clearly the knowledge that I buy (legally) cuban cigars is going to be linked up to my passport and I'm going to get a free body cavity search one of these days when I head across the border on vacation.
I think you mean Khitomer Massacre.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, though I'm not yet sure about the universe. - A Einstein
Not that I had anything done to me because of its application. It's the principle that's got me razzed.
I find the modern computer to be an amazing palette for my imagination. Not only surfing, but *doing* things, and connecting with shared interests.
As such it can be a very personal sketch pad. Now think of, say, kids that get expelled from school because they wrote a macabre piece. I, personally, wrote terrible things about a teacher that didn't regard science fiction as 'valid literature' (although historical romance was kosher). Luckily, in that day and age, we hashed out our differences amicably.
Now think about all that sketching, which, by the language, is at the beck and call of the Feds...and they get to *order* other interests-your bank-to do the same w/out warrants, etc. Ripe for corruption.
On the lighter side, we have a government run by people that act like they haven't done any wrong crusade against the very things they crusaded for mere years earlier.
What we have is a sure-fire recipe for government abuse.
Most aggravating of all is how little people know about this law, and other laws slashdotters know well. So much so, I've been working on a campaign [watch out, it's a plug ] to bypass the media with information dissemination.
Typical. Them powerful folk always imprison the greatest inventors and artists. The world could use your brains, and yet you are rotting in a jail cell for no good reason.
Is this a sigs-optional kind of place? 'Cause I am totally down with that if you know what I mean.
WTF?!? Both canidates support the patriot act. "What the fuck is the internet?"
The past is just the present only older -me-
But the overall attitude of those in power in the US have affected non-citizens too. Before, I wouldn't think twice about taking a holiday in the US, now if I book flights I'd prefer not even to pass through.
Who knows, if the friend-of-a-friend-of-my-cousin happens to be a known terrorist, I might end up being carted away and locked in a US cell somewhere....
It aims to prevent US companies from obtaining/garnering information about Canadian citizens. However, it is known that the FBI and CSIS, previously restricted from spying on the own citizens, would spy on each others'.
Is this now also illegal?
Being an Oklahoman, I feel pity for those like you. You sheeple have your thoughts and feelings fed to you by the media instead of thinking it through for yourselves. That was not a terrorist attack, it was simply a criminal lashing out at law enforcement and government agents that had been after them. Period. Because something may terrorize, or terrify the sheeple doesn't automatically make it "terrorism". Or have we changed our defination of "terrorist" lately?
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
There are three problems with the Patriot Act. The first is obviously a suspension of due process. Within 6 months of passing it, the Bush administration was boasting that it had been used to to prosecute drug dealers. This has nothing to do with terrorism, and showed the real intent: a law which could be used to suspend normal due process in the investigation and prosecution of anyone, not just terrorists.
Secondly, there is the invasion of privacy. I really could care less if anyone read all my email or searched my computer. There's nothing incriminating. But this lack of concern only applies if the intent is criminal investigation. Political persecution is another matter. The Patriot Act is a perfect cover for a fascistic Star Chamber. If a group within the intelligence community decided that only those with the proper political views should rise to prominent positions, the Patriot Act would give them the clout to find out who does or doesn't hold these views. The persecution part is easy--just call a prospective employer and drop hints about an investigation into your background and affiliation with criminal organizations. The Patriot Act makes the Thought Police a real possibility. This is why law enforcement was required to get permission and provide notification. It permits ordinary citizens to catch the scent of this kind of activity, permitting correction by civil and political action. A crucial part of the checks and balances of the American system has been disabled.
The third danger is high noise and low signal. If the intelligence community becomes involved in the unneccesary surveilance of innocent civilians, the time, expense, and manpower devoted to this is diverted from genuine threats. The end result is less security, not more. In one of the debates, John Kerry mentioned thousands of hourse of surveilance tapes that have never been watched. Who is going to watch all of this? This is noise. In Britain, where cameras have been installed everywhere, their main usage is to bust people for traffic violations. I suppose that if a terrorist attack does occur, they can look at the tapes later and say, "Oh, there go the terrorists."
What the intelligence community needs to do is focus, get people on the ground, and stop the political infighting that is clogging the system. That means that people in the intelligence community should check their political opinions at the door when they come in, and stop pulling stunts like outing CIA operatives for political gain. The draconian measure currently being used won't help either; if you know a guy who is innocent but might have a lead, you're a lot less likely to give his name if you think he might get shipped to Guantanamo Bay just because he might be a couple steps removed from suspicious characters. And finally, they would have to get rid of John Ashcroft, the incompetent git who lost an election to a dead guy, shut down the FBI people who informed him of the suspicious group of Arabs training in a flight school in Florida, and who has detained 6000 people without finding a single terrorist. As long as he's in place, nothing else will matter.
Padilla has not been charged with a crime, and does not have access to a lawyer in his detention.
Source
11/3/04 - 6/9/02 = 2 years, 4 months, and 3 weeks.
No charges, no trial, no lawyer. Nothing. Welcome to your new home citizen. Enjoy your stay here at the Ministry of Love.
I find it truly sad to see so many slashdot readers so misinformed about the PATRIOT Act.
Its main effect is to bring established law enforcement practice into the 21st century. For example, established wiretapping protocols now apply to cell phones. So what? The same judicial approval is still needed. Do you think wiretapping should not be allowed? If so, I disagree. Can it be abused? Perhaps, but so can almost any law enforcement procedure.
As for the paranoia about searching library records, get a life and quitting fretting about nothing. Public library records have always been public (duh!).
I'll bet nobody here on slashdot has been personally affected by this Act (unless terrorists read slashdot, which I doubt).
I realize that this post will get modded down and flamed or ignored, but I don't care.
I watch Brit Hume on Fox News
The problem of terrorism is due to almost exclusively people who are not American citizens. Increasing surveillance and intruding on the privacy of foreigners is the right way to go and does not violation the Constitution. The Constitution is, after all, only for American citizens...
Normally I usually leave the trolls alone to the mods, but sometimes I see posts like this and it absolutely amazes me this dude could possibly be genuine about his POV. Checking his posting history, this troll is pretty good at spreading FUD. Karma be damned, people like this really need to start thinking.
You know, as fellow geeks, it is understood that we have (or try to maintain) a certain level of critical thinking in our discussion in order to facilitate growth - whether the factors be scientific, political, social or whatever. One of the touchy subjects we geeks (or people in general) have a tough time agreeing on is in our moral code as individuals and how to integrate our individual character into society.
As a son of an first generation immigrant, my immediate reaction to this post would have been to mod this down, as the parent post absolutely reeks of racial intolerance - and has all the earmarks of extremist belief. In fact, how is parent's stance any different from another point of view, such as, I daresay, Muslim extremists?
And look dude, I'm not trying to lay out parallels to portray Muslims in a bad light. I've known plenty of Muslims as friends and fellow colleagues. The difference between you and them, is that they are TOLERANT of my relgious stance, they are TOLERANT of my ethnic background, and are only intolerant if/when my ignorant actions infringe on their civil liberties and rights. And likewise, I to them.
Swifting deporting foreigners would eliminate the need to violate the civil rights of citizens in the war on terrorism.
We need to have the guts to treat citizens and non-citizens differently.
Oh this is just classic. So tell me genius, what constitutes a FOREIGNER? Someone not born of this country? Someone who looks different from YOU? Someone who can't speak english as well as you can? So how do you profile a foreigner? Do you determine within a few seconds whether that guy sitting next to you on the bus is a citizen or non-citizen? My parents were immigrants, but became citizens (and voted today) - where does that place them in your instant profiling? Or do they not really count as 'American' citizens?
And after what you just said, you are telling me that the PATRIOT ACT is a violation of civil rights and an invasion of privacy?
I have to listen to people whine about it wherever I go.
Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
Actually, I was thinking of tourism. You know - that thing where I spend my money in the US, thereby making the US richer and in return I get to see some stuff I wouldn't otherwise have seen in Real Life.
If I was going to work overseas, I'd much prefer to work in England or Scotland. I could easily get a job there and I can spend my weekends hanging out on the continent.
But hey, if you want to head back into isolationism, please be my guest. The rest of the world prefer that too, I think.
/mike
-- "So, what's the deal with Auntie Gerschwitz et all?"
1) Personally: It offends my sense of civil-libertarian principle. The law leaves Americans less-free to go about their business unmolested by the hand of Big Brother. Restrictions on freedom should always be as few as reasonably possible, and the PATRIOT Act certainly doesn't qualify as a justifiable reasonable restriction on freedom in my book. It didn't 3 years ago, and it still does not.
2) Professionally: Having worked in the financial industry, the PATRIOT Act made my employer more-transparent to the govn't for terrorist-spotting purposes. This is a drain on our system resources and therefore, our productivity, and therefore, our efficiency, and therefore, our profits, and therefore, my income. So the PATRIOT Act has regulated away some (perhaps admittedly-small) amount of my income -- and for what?
Nothing except freedom-reduction and inefficiency, as far as I can tell.
Here's a better question: how many terrorists have we caught thanks *solely* to the PATRIOT Act? If we are to justify the law as useful for catching terrorists, then we had better *judge* it based on how many terrorists we catch -- NOT whether we have each been harmed by it. After all, a law that does nothing is a useless law wasting space on the shelves of law libraries across America, continuing to displace liberty in the name of security.
Indeed, true liberty is a lawyer's empty bookshelf.
And if the PATRIOT Act has been unsuccessful in catching terrorists, then the law has failed and we damn well had better repeal it for freedom's sake (and then proceed to find a better solution to the terrorist problem).
Look, just because the law hasn't affected somebody *yet* doesn't mean it *never* will. Take the tax cuts of the Reagan era -- it wasn't a week before Democrats were saying "OMG, it's not working!" But the process isn't that fast -- and in the end, the tax cuts worked.
So too will it be with the PATRIOT Act -- we may not have each been severely violated by it yet, but it is likely we will, sooner or later -- just like the DMCA. Therein lies the problem with the PATRIOT Act, the DMCA, the McCain-Feingold Act, or any other law: sooner or later, it comes back to bite you in the ass. But few people realize it until it's too late...
Is Capitalism Good for the Poor?
Terrorism refers to the methodology of using violence to incite a fearful reaction from a civilian population, for the purpose of achieving a political, religious or social goal. Terrorist acts can be carried out by individuals, groups, or governments.
The use of the terms terrorism and terrorist is politically weighted, as these terms (and historically, other terms like them) are often used in propaganda to drum up support in opposition to the designated "terrorists."
Nations that support forms of organized violence (particularly where civilians are harmed) will tend to dissociate themselves from the term, and will use neutral or even positive terms to characterize their own combatants - such as soldiers, freedom fighters and patriots, all of which can be ambiguous.
Terrorist is a term for one who is personally involved in an act of terrorism. Terrorist tactics may also be used by dissident groups or other actors to achieve political ends or for purposes of extortion.
You don't think McVehigh counts as a terrorist? I pray people in Oklahoma are not nearly as ignorant as you.
I can't believe what a bunch of nerds we are. We're looking up "money laundering" in the dictionary.
real nerds would have googled it.
$8.95/mo web hosting
Those who were affected aren't here to tell you. You know, black choppers only deliver passengers one way...
After a move to an apartment, I decided to change my address with my banks, etc. This apparently triggered something which froze all my accounts. I took so long to straighten out that I had to borrow money from friends to make my payments and to live. My broker told me this was a new government requirement from the Patriot Act.
Thing is, I was freaked out that all the freedom we claim to have in this country was suddenly pulled out from under me. Most people don't think they could ever be affected by things like this but I am much more of a civil libertarian because of it.
My money managers complain about the amount of overhead (ie, paperwork) it has added to their jobs.
You may not have noticed, but the USA Patriot Act passed 98-1 in the Senate, 356-66 in the House, meaning the vast majority of Democrats voted for it too. If you hate the Act, you can equally blame the Democrats for whatever ills it brings.
my life is a boring as it was on 9-10-01.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
It hasn't. And it hasn't affected 98% of Americans. Look at the House and Senate races. Who's still in the lead? Why? Voters approve of what they are doing.
The fear of terrorism, of which the PATRIOT Act is an extension of, basically chucked my Fourth Amendment right against search and seizure out the window. When I did not consent to a search, I was escorted off the train and told to hoof it home (which is 25 miles away). I do not have a car that I can take into work. A District Court judge ruled that the searches were "reasonable." The MBTA has expressed that they will continue these in the future at their discretion.
A minor inconvenience in the big scheme of things, but this is how it starts.
-truth
I had a steady B+ in my AI class until I failed the Turing test...
While generally aligned with conservative/republican views, I voted for the only senator with the balls to vote against the PATRIOT Act: Senator Feingold. Granted, I'm not appreciative of all he does, but that sticks out enough to change a republican vote to a democrat one.
IWARS.
People, in general, disappoint me. Politicians even more so.
The Patriot Act is getting alot of air time out there, but you need to do some research. Every presidential administration has been issuing executive orders (that gave power without consent of House or Senate).
J .+179
George W Bush replaced a couple with the Patriot Act (which had to go before Congress first).
President Clinton's 1995 executive order 12958 was one that was expired (whose intent was to declassify secret documents quickly which was reverse of Reagan's order 12356).
Do you realize how long the FBI Carnivore network has been up? or the Echelon network?
We are still BUSINESS AS USUAL. (at least with Dems and Republicans passing baton back an forth).
See "The Patriot Act's Impact on the Government's Ability to Conduct Electronic Surveillance of Ongoing Domestic Communications" by Nathan C. Henderson, Duke Law Journal, October 2002:
http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.pl?52+Duke+L.+
Yes, we have wi-fi. 802.11G no less.
Okay I have tended to do large numbers of web searches on subjects of government corruption, scandals, intelligence agency acronyms, high performance computing, cryptography, and emerging technologies. It appears my web surfing habits may have set off a few alarms. That and perhaps also the fact that I happen to collect firearms as a hobby, as well as subscribe to several gun magazines.
I have been followed closely and aggressively by cars both while driving my own car and while riding my bicycle near my home. The bicycle incident was like something out of a movie. I mean I was followed closely by a car while riding my bike, for about a quarter mile. How indiscreet is that?
I have been photographed multiple times by complete strangers under circumstances that suggest I had been staked out, and for the sole purpose of photographing me.
Now here's a good one. Usually (but not always) when I happen to mention in passing certain keywords during phone calls, such as weapon, nuclear, terrorism, asassinate or similar nasty words like that, almost immediately I'll hear a very brief touch-tone in the earpiece. It is so brief, maybe a twentieth of a second, that I cannot identify exactly which touch-tone it is... however I'm enough of a phone phreak that I can tell you it is from the fourth column of touch-tones of a 4X4 pad, in other words it is one of the A, B, C or D Touch-Tones. It is from that column. I experience this not only on my Comcast line, not only on my VoicePulse VoIP line, but even on my Verizon cell phone line whether at home or roaming. It has even happened while using an AT&T calling card from a hotel room phone. This is VERY freaky in my opinion... I have no explanation for these tones during my phone calls, nor am I aware of any surveillance equipment that behaves this way. However, I do know that normal phone switching equipment does not sporadically, and frequently produce these sounds. But this keeps happening. It happened to me yesterday.
I call an old friend on the phone, in another state, and within 24 hours that friend, out of the blue, also gets photographed by a complete stranger.
I have another friend, one with web surfing habits very similar to my own. He loves intrigue perhaps even more than I do. But it seems this friend had actually viewed some very frightening technical information out on the web, information possibly related to classified research. The nature of the information itself freaked him out a bit. But since then, he has seen the US government sites in question get taken down, deleted from DNS, purged from the Google cache, and even purged from the internet archive's wayback machine. Some of the information he did manage to save on disk.
An anonymizing proxy server he had been using went from many peers down to only one peer, and then it went offline. Then almost simultaneously, his cable internet service went down for several hours, for the first time ever.
Within 24 hours, a car pulls into this same friend's driveway in the middle of the night, a man gets out, promptly takes a very powerful flash picture of my friend's house, and then jumps back in the car and speeds away. The car's direction of arrival suggested that it had driven against the normal direction of traffic on his street prior to pulling into his driveway and taking the picture. My friend reports that the flash from this picture was much, much more powerful than an ordinary consumer camera flash.
During the day, two cars that do not belong to any of his neighbors sat parked, with men in them, at either end of his block. When he drives past one of them, it suddenly starts up and begins following him. This went on for weeks, and ceased happening a few months ago.
I have this same friend pick me up at the airport, from an international flight. And the very next day, he gets photographed by a stranger. Then his house gets broken into. He comes home to a front door which is swinging open, but with no signs of forced entry.
Hell, this looks set to affect me and I'm in Australia.
US law may breach Australian privacy rules
The Australian Computer Society is the latest group to express concern over the possible impact of the United States Patriot Act on the privacy of Australian citizens.
There is international concern that under the Act, US companies anywhere in the world are expected to pass on private information to US authorities.
Society board member Carl Reid says on appearances, the Patriot Act could lead US subsidiaries to breach Australia's Privacy Act provisions.
He says the Federal Government should seriously consider how best to protect the privacy of Australian citizens.
"The only way of guaranteeing this security is through the use of commercial entities, which are answerable to Australian law entirely," he said.
"Or it may be that it's necessary for the Australian Government to enter into special treaty arrangements with the American Government."
Source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/justin/
I have been consulting for almost 10 years and to this day (ok, it was yesterday) I take checks to the bank that do not have my name on them. Some have my company name, some my name, or it could be the name of a canvas-backed waterfowl. If I deposited it to an account, they never checked. I wish that they WOULD check. That could help cut down on check fraud (people harvesting checks from mailboxes and cashing outright or washing them).
You seem to have all the answers. Why don't you run for office?
-- No sig for you!
It must also be remembered that the McCarthy hearings had no legal authority at all (ie. not a courtroom and no judge involved), but they still sent people to jail.
.. the States.
Because of PATRIOT Act, I have completely cut all involvement with America down to whatever interaction happens on the Internet with a few Americans I know, and a close circle of friends I occasionally stay in touch with and see when they travel the world.
I no longer work with Americans. I no longer travel to the U.S. for business. (trade shows &etc) I'm not taking any chances; the U.S. has become a techno-militaristic fascist state, and no longer represents to me, a member of the so-called "free world", the bastion of freedom and expression that it once did.
The U.S. is a Cop, and you don't hang with cops if you don't have to. And if you have to, you don't want to.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
You don't necessarily know that the usapatriot act has affected you because of the secrecy.
Why is it that such a 'free' people cannot have transparency in government?
Why are there no simple answers to simple questions?
------ no thanks... I've quit
While you are feeling courageous why don't you go ahead a say what you really mean, that we should target people with dark skin and strange names?
The answer of coarse is that we are better than that, or so I hope. It's bigoted ideas like this that show how dangerous these people really are.
How has it affected me?
Not in any way that I'm aware of, but I guess that's the point of many of its provisions.
How has it affected my vote?
Not at all. I think the USA PATRIOT Act was a bad piece of legislation. It was a knee jerk law that want too far, but my vote is unchanged.
I voted for the candidate that I would have even if 9/11 and the related aftereffects had never taken place.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Investigation after the fact suggests that McVeigh intended the attack in Oklahoma City to be the opening of a new revolutionary war. You might believe him a patriot if you agreed with his cause but from almost any other perspective the fact that he chose to attack civilians with a large bomb in order to accomplish some (even *any*) end earns him the label of "terrorist".
I just found out there's no such thing as the real world. It's just a lie you've got to rise above. - John Mayer
Let's see what this legal "tool against terrorism" can do with a real incident:
v =14RSSfrH
AP Reports: Arizona Bomb Threat forces Poll Relocation and Evacuation of Children from Nearby School
http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=2512654&na
Pundits were worried about lawyers and activists, votes in the trash cans, voter tampering at polling places - Rightly so - but bomb threats? What is this country coming to?
Nationally, how many polling places were disrupted (or PHYSICALLY RELOCATED) due to bomb threats?
I'd really like to see someone do time over this...
Think they'll get caught/convicted?
A lot of people have been quick to respond that it hasn't affected them. Howthe hell do you knowthat? Many provisions of the PATRIOT Act prevent you from learning that it has been used against you. Just because you haven't had US Marshals knocking on your door doesn't mean you haven't had your library record analyzed. Just because you haven't been detained without charges doesn't mean that more of your tax money isn't going to extra surveilance that is ethically questionable and wouldn't be legal without the PATRIOT Act.
I'd encourage everyone to download (from your favourite torrent site or P2P) and view the 3 part BBC Documentary "The Power of Nightmares".
(Episode 3 isn't out yet.)
if you look at many math professors at us universities you will see that many of them are either japanese or russian, some are german.
so instead of going to usa the people would go to europe, russia or japan for education.
so much for lucky talent wise.
Conservatism: The fear that somewhere, somehow, someone you think is your inferior is being treated as your equal.
Besides 9/11, how many terrorist attacks were there before the Act was passed? It is a logical fallacy to assume that attacks have been prevented due to the PATRIOT Act.
Here's an example of the same logic: You are a healthy person, but one day you contract a disease. I give you a pill that you have never seen before and tell you that taking it will prevent future illness. You can only claim that the pill was sucsessful at preventing illness if and only if you would have gotten sick without it and you didn't get sick when you would have. First, you must be able to tell if you would have gotten sick in the first place, which you can't know. If you don't ever get sick again, there is no way to tell whether or not it was due to my pill or due to the fact that you are a healthy person. It is a logical fallacy to claim either one, but if you had never been sick before now, it is certainly more reasonable to attribute your health to the strength of your body since that has been proven over and over again.
As I understand, the counter-terrorist intelligence in this country was very good before the PATRIOT Act. Just because we haven't had an attack since 9/11 does not mean it was due to the PATRIOT Act. It may easily be due to the good work those people are doing and have done in the past.
Light is filtering down from above. Would you like to use DIVE?
Alright, well, howabout guys with beards then? If we just watchout for guys with beards, we'll be safe....
Firstly, nice to see you using the Anonymous Coward option for what it was designed for: letting people freely spout whatever they want to free from persecution. Ironically, it's that sort of anonymity and protection of freedom of expression that the PATRIOT ACT essentially undermines.
Having said that, I do prefer it if people are willing to stand up and be counted when voicing a viewpoint that's diametrically opposed to my own. If nothing else, it makes it easier to track a conversation back and forth if I know which messages are being posted by which individual. Funny though, there are some out there that would say that standing up and being counted just makes it easier to weed out unwanted voices of dissent, as many a political prisoner throughout history could testify.
Secondly, it's nice to see you skim over those parts of my post that you don't feel like addressing, presumably because you have no way of rationalising away those forms of unfair discrimination and abuses of power.
Yeah, ignore the fact that a country theoretically built on the principle that "all men are created equal" was practically built with the blood, sweat and tears of a subjugated people. Ignore the fact that the Constitution valued the life of a negro slave as 3/5ths of a man, or that the freed slaves never did get their 40 acres and a mule in compensation.
Ignore the fact that, as recently as a couple of generations ago, blacks couldn't drink from the same water fountain as whites, that blacks had to give up their seats to whites, that blacks couldn't share the same classrooms as whites and that lynchings were a way of life.
Ignore the fact that as badly as black Americans have been treated, that native American peoples have been treated far worse, from the days of Plymouth Rock to Custer to today.
Ignore the fact that a woman doing the same job as a man who's equal to her in every other aspect other than their genders is likely to be earning less than her male counterpart, and is far less likely to be promoted than her male colleague.
Ignore the fact that being gay in the US military is akin to being unfit for service. As if a gay man is any less capable of firing a rifle, driving a tank or flying a plane.
Ignore the fact that the 43rd President of the United States would actively seek to take rights away from people based purely on their sexuality, even where those rights have been specifically granted to them by one or more of the States.
Ignore the fact that nothing more than a person's ethnicity has been used in the past to justify their imprisonment. Japanese Americans and others who spent most of World War II illegally imprisoned in internment camps clearly didn't have any rights.
Ignore the fact that a person's beliefs, however privately they may be held, have been reason enough to hound them unendlessly. Ignore the fact that McCarthyism ever existed and, to put it mildly, that it flew in the face of free speech.
Ignore the fact that post-September 11th, hundreds of Americans of Middle Eastern descent were interned without any legal representation or even access to their families whatsoever. And, whatever you do, ignore Camp X-Ray and everything that's gone on there.
Ignore the racial and religious McCarthyism that's going on right now, where people are routinely discriminated against because their skin is the wrong colour or because of their faith.
And above all, ignore any point that espouses a viewpoint that you disagree with.
I made a list in response to comments by someone who clearly didn't believe that innocents could be unfairly targetted in the US. I made a list to educate him that, unfortunately, innocents can and have been unfairly targetted in the US several times.
The land of the free isn't supposed to be the land of the free for most of the people, it's meant to be the land of the free for all of the people.
If you're so uncomfortable with a short list of examples of your country's failings then you really need to examine why it is you feel the need to defend the indefensible.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
It gave me the final touch: I can't afford to enter
USA territory because I fear they would just take
me for "crimes" I had committed, just like the
russian eBook hacker who was sued by Adobe some time
ago.
Uhm... exporting crypto, written in Germany, from
the USA... isn't exactly that big a "crime".
Especially here.
Same for the others.
And your patent and intellectual property system
sucks (and ours is going to be worse than now
soonish).
My Karma isn't excellent, damn it! (And
Nausea at the retreat from the courage and ideals
that once characterized this nation.
Once we were the land of the free and the home of the brave.
Now we're the land of the secretly-surveiled,
and the home of the anxious-about-safety.
"When the freedom they wished for most
was the freedom from responsibility,
then Athens ceased to be free,
and never was free again."
- Edith Hamilton
Wait a minute. Didn't I say that on the other side of the record? I'd better check
I would like to know why this post was marked up as flamebait. The poster had legitimate points in regards to their support for the patriot act. Correct me if I am wrong but the lead terrorist we are after is infact Muslim and he is the one who lead the attacks on the WTC.
Cassius Clay, Ali himself said he was ashamed of the Muslim attitude in regards to what their religion preaches and what they did spedifically. It goes against everything that the Muslim religion is about.
So tell me, how is this post flamebait. You can mark me up too because the severe left winged moderators are clearly blind.
Assuming positions on the supreme court clear as expected Bush will be appointing some conservatives to the justice panel. I think now that such an environment exists we're more likely to see the patriot act used, because people know that the second it is the ACLU will jump all over it. With a conservative majority in the supreme court the patriot act will likely not be ruled unconstitutional, and can thus now be used. Other extremely bad things that will likely happen: row vs. wade will be overturned and gay marriage will be banned!
I think I had federal agents come in my apt with a Secret warrant.
I came home and my apartment was all cleaned up.
But I can't say for sure cause I think that would be against the PATRIOT ACT.
Bet this
If you this Act is benign now, maybe it is. But what do you suppose is going to happen when all the other countries in the world have been bullied or bombed into submission, and you are left with a powerful military and a powerful corporate lobby, backed by an aggressive government that does not respect the citizen's rights? Where will you be?
In fact, I can honestly say that the Patriot Act has had the exact same effect on me as terrorism has.
The sad thing is, while I'm fairly confident that terrorism probably won't ever affect me directly, I'm also fairly confident that the Patriot Act eventually will.
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
It made me cry.
"Love heals scars love left." -- Henry Rollins
Ring up and report yourself. Make sure you have a lawyer with you or a news crew and see what happens.
Or just randomly report people who you think are terrorists. When they start dragging people away in droves, thats when people will start to feel the outrage.
...and especially as a French, it was the last straw. I've decided since to avoid to go to the US for vacation. Not until common sense comes back there. (Probably not in the 4 next years...).
Americans probably won't care, but they've lost many tourists. Not for fear of terrorists in America, but for fear of Americans.
Christophe (Don't hesitate to point out my spelling and grammar mistakes, I want to learn - Thanks).
It's not the "Patriot" Act; it's the "USAPATRIOT" Act.
Please use the full acronym, or its full name: "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism".
The "USAPATRIOT" Act has nothing to do with patriotism, so calling it the "Patriot Act" is misleading.
(Considering how the Act is being misused these days, even using its full name is somewhat misleading (How is copyright infringement "terrorism"?).)
Personally, I pronounce it "the you sap at riot act" to avoid confusion.
Other pronunciations are "the US ap uh TRY ot act" and (as Jar-Jar) "the YOUsa pah TR-R-RE-E-E at act".
Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
I'm not trying to troll here but I haven't seen one post saying how anyone has been affected. If there is one can someone point me to it?
I personally think it's scary but I do think it's not completely worthless. With modification it could be beneficial to all outstanding citizens.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
This is the classic "he's doing wrong so I can do wrong, too" defense which has no place in modern civilized society.
Sexual discrimination? Get a life. Those cases are RARE (and everyone gets discriminated against--I am a male, but I certainly have been stereotyped and had prejudices against me for my skin color)
Wake up and smell the coffee, Anonymous Coward. Sexual discrimination is the rule, not the exception. A woman with the same qualifications as the male coworker doesn't get promoted, and a woman doing the same job as a man gets paid less. This is the truth.
And if you want to discount the Patriot Act, you cannot discount the fact that it is MERELY REPLACING AN EXECUTIVE ORDER ISSUED BY BILL CLINTON THAT GAVE HIMSELF THE SAME SWEEPING POWERS BUT WITHOUT CHECK.
Go agead, shout and sling mud. Whatever Bill Clinton did or didn't do has little to no relevance with this.
while true;do echo -e -n "\033[s\n\033[u\134_\033[B";done
I simply got sick of all the people talking of hating these and those people, everyone talking of wanting war and death for so-and-so people, of all the gummint "privacy abuse" carnivore-like business following everyone, the paranoia associated with not knowing who's after you or not, and simply got on a plane and left.
i found there's a lot of countries where people appreciate my skills, presence, opinions and tax monies much more.
America: forget it.
Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
Personally I'd rather live in a country which violates the rights of everyone than one which determines that violation based on race, gender, ethnicity, or national origin.
Once you've crossed that line it's far, far, far too easy to allow monstrous things to happen because they aren't happening to you.
It helped me decide not to go to the USA for the next 20 or so years.
Szo
Red Leader Standing By!
Why is this modded funny? This is making a serious point.
Keith D.
...But then I'm, just euro-trash, and probably won't be laughing for long anyways.
Machine9dotNet
Good grief, this was the one thing that I was dreading hearing.
...
You are changing your habits, the books that you read and slogans that you sport so as to not be 'noticed'. While you're at it I might suggest that you dont think anything that might be deemed contoversial or subversive, better safe than sorry eh? You are scared that if you show anything that suggests that you do not go along with the status quo then your travel 'privilages' will be revoked. It's finaly happening.
If you are stuck for something to read on the plane might I suggest George Orwells' 1984. I only read this recently myself after hearing numerous parallels between this fictional future and todays political direction. Of course if you get searched in the airport then it's off to the Ministry of Love for you
-- If you think my attitude stinks, you should smell my fingers.
has anyone actually posted the patriot act affected them, or has everyone decided to babble about how they dont like it? i think we tend to get a little nuts about our civil liberties, and pretend like we are being violated, when in reality, basically none of us has even slightly been affected by it.
It is like the old Nazi Germany saying-- when they came for the Jews, I didn't speak up. When they came for the Cathlics, I didn't speak up. When they came for me- no one was left to speak up.
We can't sit back and wait until this one affects us personally. We need to speak up.
Unfortunately (fortunately?) the Declaration of Independance is not a law, it's just a document. They represent the ideas that we've supposedly based our government on, but it has no legal merit. I'm sure you weren't implying that, but some people seem to think it's part of the Constitution.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
What the hell are you talking about? America chooses to target and attack civilians with large bombs all the frickin' time and you don't see anyone rising up, taking up arms, and calling for a revolution against them, do you?
Oh, wait.
American 'situational ethics' is corrupting that country and turning its people into mindless plebes. THERE IS NO EFFECTIVE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES OF OKLAHOMA CITY AND FALLUJA! In both cases, humans died who should not have, horrible, horrible deaths of utter depravity.
I'm not saying McVeigh is a hero. I put him in the SAME list as I put so-called American Soldiers: Criminal Brainwashed Murderers.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
I have a standard challenge for your kind: now that you've listed everything that was wrong 30 years ago, name one thing that is _right_ today.
The problem of terrorism is due to almost exclusively people who are not American citizens.
...
The 'problem' with terrorism is in its definition. Who says what a terrorist is, and who says what a terrorist does? Find that person, and you have found someone who stands to profit from both sides of the terror coin.
Terror'-ism' is a pop-psych brain-trick designed to herd the masses towards a desired point of view. It is not a valid argument for civilization, nor is it a valid argument for war. To treat 'terrorism' as if it were a new problem, and not as old as the hills in which we build our cities, is to attempt to re-define it for political gain in the new language landscape presented by the modern American empire, and its media.
Any foolish 'patriot' who falls into the trap of believing that someone who does not 'hate terrorism' is an enemy of their land, has become a victim in point of fact of terrorist ideology
Terrorism is an ideology. Those who define that ideology are the true terrorists.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
I made me vomit.
You obviously dislike america, but you do have some valid complaints. But living in the real world, what country does it better?
The problem of terrorism is due to almost exclusively people who are not American citizens.
So so any US Citizens who happen to be terrorists would only commit terrorism outside the US? Problem is that this has been proven not to be the case. Anyway what's to stop terrorists using blackmail, intimidation, bribary, identity theft, etc to ensure that all their operatives appear to be US Citizens?
Increasing surveillance and intruding on the privacy of foreigners is the right way to go and does not violation the Constitution. The Constitution is, after all, only for American citizens.
You should re-read it. Only in a few parts is mention even made of the issue of Citizenship. The actual purpose of the US Constitution is to define what the US Federal Government can and can't do. There arn't that many places where it actually says something only applies to US Citizens.
Ashcroft has used the Patriot Act to detain 5000 people, used secret detentions so that many of these people are just missing to their families. (link requires subscription)
I have a family and while I would love to protest the treatment of our civil liberties by this administration, in this environment where police feel they have carte blanche to arrest or detain someone for several days without judicial review, I can't take a chance that I might be locked up. It's wrong. Everything about it is wrong, and the attitudes trumpeted by the right reflect quite chillingly those of the Nazis, down to their exagerrated proclamations of victory and silencing of dissent through intimidation.
Has another country existed which did not have comparable problems/shortcomings? No? Then get off your abstract horse.
I notice that most of your ignore's are historic, not current. That deflates your point, I think. If a country had those problems in the past and did nothing to correct them, one would have cause for a dim outlook. But, hey, that's not at all what happened, is it?
Shall we continue to bitch and moan about Britian's taxation methods? No? Why? Because it's history, and old at that. And, it's different now.
So, make your much shorter list about current events and we'll discuss how to go about correcting those too. Oh wait, that's already going on. Basically, you just bitched to bitch.
The japanese were put in camps because they were a security risk during a war. A terrible event, but neccessary. But they weren't Japanese, they were American...
I'm not nececarily saying you're wrong...but how are native americans discriminated against today? It seem actualy the reverse. They don't have to pay taxes and they get to run all these casinos that nobody else can allowing them to make hundreds of millions of dollars? Am I missing something here?
--HC
So I'm jump'n up and down screaming show me the money.
Why does this whole thing about terrorism remind me so much of this game?
We've had a few customers targeted by the Feds under the Patriot Act. The requests always come "in person", there's never any paperwork and they just want mail headers. Shipped out every week on a CD-ROM.
I find this rather disturbing, as should you.
Not at all since I live in Sweden. Long live the polarbears!
Error: No error occurred
I recently took a trip to New York and walked across the Brooklyn Bridge. The PATRIOT act kept that bridge from being blown up. I liked that walk.
-brain
The reservations are on land that settlers didn't want. Native Americans who live on the reservations are often barred from working off the reservation, either by law (in some cases they're not considered U.S. citizens) or because of discrimination. Most of the reservations have no economy to speak of other than a small amount of tourism (and maybe the casinos you mentioned, but only in some cases). Poverty and alcoholism are usually rampant, and if there is a casino, many of the folks on the reservation don't see any money from it because of corruption.
A few years ago I went on a service trip to Oaks Indian School, which is basically an Lutheran-run orphanage on the Cherokee reservation in Oklahoma. It was an eye-opening experience. I'm originally from a rural area of Ohio just on the edge of the Rust Belt, so I had a little bit of an idea what poverty looks like. I had no idea it would be as bad as it was. Just absolutely heartbreaking.
"My life's work has been to prompt others... and be forgotten." --Cyrano de Bergerac
As a guy with a beard, I can tell you that this is a pain in the neck. For some reason, after years of not flying at all, in the year after 9/11 I flew 4 times. While AFAIK I have no Middle Eastern ancestors, my features could be taken as such.
I got use to getting "random" searches at the gate, and automatically taking my shoes off at security.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
You mean like they do with drivers' licenses and gun permits?
Uh, well, at least like they do with drivers' licenses, anyway. If we actually did "register guns like cars," my gun permit would be valid in every state -- but it's not.
Homosexuality is treated as the norm, when in reality, it should be classified as a mental disorder. When someone behaves in a way that obviously isn't natural, one would think that there is something wrong with that person. For some reason we go the other way on homosexuality. While gays need tolerance, they also need help to get past their disorder.
I'm a devout Atheist and proud of it.
Do I also need help to get passed this disorder - since it "obviously isn't natural"?
First they burn books, then they burn people.
Ahhh, but the Constitution says nothing about "terrorist." Therefore it affords no rights or protections to "terrorists."
I say that in all facetiousness, but I fear that some people would take this as a logical argument that they could run with.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
If I hadn't seen so many news stories about it, I'd be unable to tell anything has changed at all. Course, I live in "flyover country", so maybe it's different for you people in big cities.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
This is a bit OT, but as a non American I'm greatly puzzled by the voting process of America. Apparently it's supposed to be inefficient and vague, to the pride of Americans everywhere, but things that puzzle me are:
How can you hope to express your views when there are only two parties with two candidates, who on most issues share the same view?
How can you vote fairly when you have to vote for a local representative you approve of, but these votes count for a national representative you might not approve of as well?
How can it be when the populair vote is devided about 51% to 49% that the 1 part gets to have all the say in the next four years? Shouldn't it be a Republican Presidant with a Democrat Vice President to do justice to the popular vote?
When I look at elections in my country, I have multiple parties to vote on and I can vote seperately for my city, provence, Nation and Europe. This doesn't garantee my views are represented, but a lot more concensus is needed to get things done.
Back on topic, as a non European the USAPATRIOT act has not affected me. It did change my view of America to a not so free country lead more by fear then it needs to. I hope that repressive acts such as this will continue to not affect me. It would be a scary world when laws such as this start to affect foreigners as well.
Hans
As a kid, I was a bit of a pyromaniac. I'd like to think I was a "responsible" pyromaniac, in that I never burned anything down or destroyed anything. I just enjoyed the chemistry, the light, and the smoke of it all. For example, thermite was a joy to discover, and it helped me exercise the high-school chemistry I was taking at the time, to figure out the exact proportions. Though I never did do the experimentation to figure out if using Fe2O3 would be hotter and Fe3O2 better for welding.
Now I have a swimming pool, and it uses some high-energy chemicals. I was trying to learn more about "Shock'n'Swim" - AKA Sodium Monopersulphate, and found myself at a home explosives page.
In the old days, I would have lingered at the page and checked out some links. I might have even tried a few experiments.
In the new days, I closed it, ASAP.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
It has been drilled into our heads, ever since we were in elementary school, that we live in the greatest country in the world. Maybe people should actually open their eyes, and take a look around. There are plenty of other countries that are just fine. What about Norway? Or Canada? Japan? I am not saying to go and move somewhere else, or that the U.S is the worst place to live, but there are other places. Maybe we should stop believing the bullshit that is pushed into our heads without questioning it.
Freedom would be not to choose between black and white but to abjure such prescribed choices. -Theodor Adorno
>> 3. had enough, voted for kerry today. (11/3)
Perhaps this is why Kerry lost.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
"You can go to jail without trial"
Depending on how and with what you are charged, you always could.
"complaining to the government is now an act of terror according to the Justice Department"
The first time that is challenged in court, it will get tossed, free speech is still the law and a right. Calm down, it really isn't as bad as you think.
Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
Of course, any positive effect that the P-ACT may have will in the long term be counteracted by the extreme seeds of hate that the Illegal War in Iraq is creating among Muslims (actually more than just the Muslims, pretty much everyone will hate us soon). In the long haul, this administration will make us LESS safe.
The Patriot Act and the Bush administration has brought FUD to the masses. How else could Bush be so close to winning in the 2004 election? It looks like Bush may pull this one out, and if he does he will win because of FUD, plain and simple. The Patriot Act was part of this. Hey W, congrats on your first election win. Obama '08!!!!
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Wake up and smell the coffee, Anonymous Coward. Sexual discrimination is the rule, not the exception. A woman with the same qualifications as the male coworker doesn't get promoted, and a woman doing the same job as a man gets paid less. This is the truth.
you are talking about averages, yes? ON AVERAGE, a woman with the same qualifications.... etc etc. That is true. It is also true that ON AVERAGE, women are not willing to devote their whole lives to a job. on average, women do not work 60 to 80 hour weeks just to get ahead. on average, women place more value on family time and children than getting ahead in a job. yes, men get paid more and get promoted more, that's because men are the psychos that will spend all of their time and energy at work, trying to get a leg up.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not a troll.
His post included "sins of the past" and "sins of today" - see the parts about the post 9/11 internment, sexual discrimination, homophobic persecution, etc.
As for your challenge, I'm not sure why anyone would take that seriously. It's a misdirection. Instead of honestly and directly confronting the issues he brought up, you're changing the subject and trying to get him to answer a loaded question. If you're willing to ignore real social issues of the past and of today, I can only expect you to ignore them in the future. That is, until you're the victim of one of these issues.
Ah, so you are just bright enough to use overtly hostile language. congrat's! But, from your own post:"... for the purpose of achieving a political, religious or social goal." It was none of these. Next time use facts, not bad language to state your case, otherwise you describe youself with your own arguments, and are not convincing in the slightest. Good Day, I hope you actually voted for Kerry, 'cause your type is his type.
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
Well, I don't mind so much your disagreeing with me, and even calling me names, BUT BACK OFF THE US SOLDIERS. If your convictions are as strong as your post seems to suggest, be a man. You have my email address. Email me, we can arrange a face to face and I will personally show you what a soldier can do to the enemy. Not a threat, but fact! If you don't have the balls, go piss up a rope, you're not worth my time.
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
"And the other things you mentioned about religious/racial descrimination...those are just sad and unfortunate tendencies of human race." I'm sure all minorities everywhere thank you for your enlightened approach to suffering and what should be done about it... or not done since they are just unfortunate tendencies. I agree these things are unfortunate and we should devote every iota of our being to trying to create a society where they cannot happen because no one wants them to. Maybe then the rest of the world wouldn't laugh there asses off when America gets on it morally high horse and tries to "help" them be free.
"The world is a tragedy to those who feel, and comedy to those who think." -- Shakespeare
I'm just a little fearful of going abroad.
I don't perceive US citizens as being terribly well-liked, any more. Plus, to meet the US stereotype, I don't speak any languages other than US English. Besides being a US failing, it's my own failing - my talents lie in other directions - my foreign language requirement in high school was tough on me.
I've never afforded that hop across the Atlantic, (or Pacific, for that matter) and the current international environment makes me less likely to do so. Plus the current economic environment makes that less likely, too. (pay not keeping up with costs)
Thinking again, if at some point I do choose to go abroad, I suspect I'll at least probe through the Linux community. That way I'll at least have some sort of local contact, wherever I go.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Stop being the world police and I'll stop caring about who runs your country.
Meh.
The terms of the USAPATRIOT act do not allow me to state how it has effected me.
"The japanese were put in camps because they were a security risk during a war."
Prove it.
Seriouely. How many of those imprisoned Japanese were spies or saboteurs, or terrorists intent on reducing or eliminating America's ability to wage war against Japan?
Personally, I can't recall that ANY of them were ever found guilty of such offenses.
The same has happen for men of Middle-Eastern descent. Has there been even ONE that was a true terrorist? THat was in colusion with the REAL enemy of America, UBL?
No. you are simply trying to justify your racial hatred, as your fore-fathers justified their racial hatred of negroes by claiming they were "less than human". And, like them, you will eventually be shown to be the bigotted racist you truely are.
"Being gay in the military makes the other guys uncomfortable."
I'm so sorry you are so uncertain about your manhood. Tell me...do you still giggle and act childish if you see a woman naked in public?
You obviously would have the emotional maturity of a 10 year old if being around a homosexual makes you "uncomfortable". Quite frankly, I would be far more uncomfortable around "real men" who can't even understand that what they are shooting at is a cow, when the word "cow" is written on the side of it!
And people wonder why colleges and other institutions haven't truely gone "co-ed". Most of humanity hasn't matured past an elementary grade level emotionally.
"Homosexuality is treated as the norm, when in reality, it should be classified as a mental disorder."
So has joining a cult. Yet that has become socially acceptable, too.
"When someone behaves in a way that obviously isn't natural"
1.) Define "Natural" that doesn't also mena "comforms to MY viewpoints".
2.) Since homosexuality has been documented in the "wild" (and I'm not talking about gay bars) with animals, what makes you think that humans would be somehow exempt from this?
"While gays need tolerance, they also need help to get past their disorder."
Tell me...Do you like blonde women? Brunettes? Larger women or smaller? Or maybe you just perfer pictures?
Are these "disorders"? No. These are what you were pre-programmed with.
Being raised by a homosexual does not mean you will be homosexual, just as being raised by a heterosexual means you will be heterosexual. There is more than environment at work to determine sexual preference.
The Common Cowbird (In Illinois - look it up) will lay its eggs in another bird's nest. That doesn't mean the juvenile cowbird grows up thinking it's a robin, or sparrow. It grows up KNOWING it's a cowbird, and mates with other cowbirds.
It would be the same with homosexuals. They are born "knowing" they are homosexual (even though mentally they are being beaten into submission by narrow minded fools).
Attempts to "get them past their disorder" is no more than brainwashing to make YOU feel better about yourself. It isn't there to help anyone else but you.
"And the other things you mentioned about religious/racial descrimination...those are just sad and unfortunate tendencies of human race."
You actually resign yourself to this fact, or are you happy since you appear to be on the "winning side" for now?
There are many "sad and unfortunate tendancies" of the human race. Not the least of which are violence and a desire to subjugate those not conforming to your viewpoint. The only reason this is so is because of weak-minded people who cannot see past the end of their nose.
ARG!
How can you sit there and simply ACCEPT that people are descriminated against?
You are the vilest person on the planet. YOu KNOW what you (and others) are doing is wrong, yet you perpetuate the atrocities because "it's normal human nature".
Next thing you know we'll be returning to the Burning Times, where innocent people are burned or drowned based on their beliefs!
This is NOT what America was founded for. This is, in fact, the opposite of our founding father's principles a
Your attempt to sweep such things under the rug fails due to the simple fact that many of these people are still alive to tell the tale. This makes those events not history but RECENT EVENTS. History is what intellectuals can misrepresent in the absence of eye witnesses.
If I want to hear about the Japanese internment, I can ask George Takei.
If I want to hear about Jim Crow, I can ask any black old geezer around the office.
It hasn't really been that long yet.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Ya know, I haven't noticed anything different in my life since the patriot act was enacted. Not a damn thing.
.22LR rifle. In NJ, where carrying a loaded gun is flat out illegal (except for "special" people), people use loaded handguns to hold up their 7-11's. Maybe that's something people should be more worried about. For some reason, it's more of an issue for law enforcement to have more power, but it's perfectly fine for criminals to have more power. I don't get it.
One thing I DID notice though, is that as soon as the clinton Ugly-Gun ban sunset, I noticed that the price of 25 round magazines for my Ruger 10/22 rifle plummetted. Instead of having to shell out $40 or $50 for one, I can now get them for $20. Much more reasonable.
"But why do you need that?" Well, the same reason slashdotters need high end video cards, fast CPU's, etc... entertainment. It's just plain fun to be able to put a plethora of holes in various computer equipment without having to change magazines. Face it, nobody's holding up a 7-11 with a
-- Liberalism is a mental disorder.
Yes, you need help! I will pray for you. :)
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
You want me to prove my capacity for making peace by meeting you face to face and 'getting my ass kicked'? I'll save you the hassle, friend, and try this instead:
I know what a U.S. Soldier can do to the enemy. I've seen it. I'm not even in the slightest bit underestimating the right of a U.S. Soldier to holy high-order role of fighting war machine, el-primo numero-uno status.
But there is nothing honorable about being a fighting, killing machine. It is the lowest run of the ladder, almost, for every human being
Being good at it, doesn't mean being right at doing it, though.
The fact that your culture - and you in fact, as a product of that culture - choose to resort to violent physical means as a way of 'demonstrating things', is why its been so easy for power-mongers to turn the 'honorable' U.S. War Machine into the fascist force de jour
In short: you are a monkey, mr. U.S. Soldier. dance like one!
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Just about every democracy in Western Europe for one. We've better race relations, better public health care, better public transport, healthier citizens. We also make better movies and TV programs, and are largely better educated.
And we actually decide election results by counting the ballots.
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
"Ignore the fact that the Constitution valued the life of a negro slave as 3/5ths of a man" Can everyone PLEASE learn some history!!!!!!! The slave states wanted slaves to count as much as whites so they could get more congressmen! The NORTHERN STATES wanted them not counted at all since they could not vote and this would give huge political power to slave owners. The 3/5s was a compromise as to congressional representation without which it is doubtful there would ever have been a USA.
Please don't be as guilty of stereotyping "Americans" as you accuse us of doing to others. In case you hadn't notices, there are a lot of Americans who don't vote for Bush, don't like the war in Iraq, don't like the Patriot Act, don't like Guantanamo Bay or Abu Graib, etc.
We Americans can be diverse, too. Even if some of us are a minority, we are a sizeable one. (After this election, I expect us to be an even more ignored minority, too.)
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Japan has a very high suicide rate. It can't be that great. And Norway & Canada are way too cold.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
It's not "America", it's the "United States of America"... "America" is a continent and has a lot of countries and is often split into three parts: north, central and south. Thus, the USAPATRIOT act should be called USUSAPATRIOT act. If we're looking to avoid confusion...
- live from Costa Rica !
The first rule of the Partiot Act is do not talk about the Patriot Act. The second rule of the Patriot act is DO NOT TALK ABOUT THE PATRIOT ACT.
Anyone in Canada willing to offer me political asylum?
I'd be interested in seeing some statistics on murder rates in Blue states and Red States. Just guessing, but I'd guess the Blue states have us beat handily.
Um, most PEOPLE do not work 60-80 hour work weeks, they work a standard 40. If I need to work more than a standard 40, that means someone (possibly myself, but more likely someone above me) planned badly for a schedule.
And anyone who spends most of their energy and that much of their time on their work needs to loosen up and have a life. Family is, in fact, more important than the job. There are other jobs to be found that will not impose those kinds of requirements on you.
I'm not 21 yet. I opened a stock trading account a little over a year ago (I was 19), and I must have slipped under the wire.
I tried opening a commodities trading account a little later, and they denied it because I was under 21, 'because of the Patriot act.'
What the fuck?
I guess I'll be celebrating double when I turn 21...
Chris J - cej102937
We dont want your land or your damn Aerosol Cheese.
Terrorism is an ideology. Those who define that ideology are the true terrorists.
Is that a definition of terrorism?
Addlepated - punk & metal
I work as an instructor pilot and professor at a major US university. I am not a US citizen. Among the many laws that have been brough in since the patriot act a significant portion affect pilots and pilot training. The latest law issued by the TSA (tranportation security admin.) affects flight training. The law was issued in the first week of Oct with compiance mandatory on the 20th of the same month. http://www.tsa.gov/public/display?theme=44&content =09000519800d8df4/
This law mandates that all people seeking flight
training must first prove their citizenship. Certified
copies of passports must be kept on record for five
years by the school doing th training. This must be
done for every flight course.
This is only a small portion of the many hoops that US
citizens have to jump though to even see an airplane.
God help you if you are a non US citizen.
Oh and the biggest security threat I have seen so far?
NBC reporters trying to steal a helicopter.
To the state police, well done. Consider the dots connected. So you had a scare, no harm done. I am reassured by this. After all, this is the kind of response Micheal Moore wanted isn't it, rather than just one state trooper gaurding the whole coast of Oregon?
nohup rm -rf ~/. >& zen &
Could you further explain how Japanese-AMERICAN citizens are a security risk? Are you saying that during wartimes people who were born here and raised by families that were born here should be interned because they are a "security risk" based on their heritage?
I was originally planning on doing my graduate thesis on LDAP security. My biggest fear at the time was discovering something new and attracting the authorities. Why? Because I would be working on a production system "owned" (as in paid for) by state and federal funds.
My professors helpfully added that I could have my thesis "restricted" and not available for public viewing, which somehow defeats the purpose of the whole thing.
I switched topics and went with 802.11 network vulnerabilities, since most of those weaknesses were already found out. I still had to censor the contents due to California laws regarding disclosing the locations of networks in the wardriving section.
I still managed to find an exploit (actually a certain combination of exploits) and compromise the campus VPN. Because of this, I was fully expecting the feds to show up during my oral defense.
I tried every decent and legal way I could think of to resolve the issue w/the business before I rented the chicken suit
How has the USA PATRIOT Act affected you, personally? How has it interfered with your personal and professional life? Has this act influenced your Presidential vote?
I'm not at liberty to say...
His point is we're heading in the direction to do them all again.
looks lit it will likely be made permanent in the second term... judjing by most of the comments in this thread there are some legitimate concerns over it's reach and use... it would be prudent for all the people who have expressed concerns here to contact their congressman and let them know...
Get your torrents...
Luckily the State cops TOLD you something vauable about the power output of said plant so just in case they were right about you you could have used that intel to wreak havoc in the US.
And that boys and girls is in a nutshel what the fuck is wrong with the PATRIOT act. It's an excuse for penis size challenged law enforcement shitheads to brag to you about how 'in the fucking loop they are' and how important they appear to themselves.
The thing about a police state is not so much the laws, it's the fact that everyone considers themselves YOUR cop. And cops while they do an important and needed service to the community is something we don't need too much of. Think of the people you went to high school with who became cops. Do you want them micromanaging your life?
The ACLU is fighting a portion of the Patriot act right now, however, it cannot explicitly publish the sections it is fighting due to the current P.A. forbids it!!
Let's say you or someone you knew ran afoul of some section due to an innocent action on your part. What makes you think you could legally comment/mention/inform others of your predicament? It might be that you would be locked away with no <I>rights</I> to communicate with <B>anyone</B>.
I have a question of you: Do you happen to work for our misnamed Department of Justice?
We are a people inundated with propaganda proclaiming America's superiority. Unfortunately, far too many people are willing to accept that propaganda as truth. I fear that as a society we are too lazy (or perhaps too apathetic) to go out on our own, search for facts, and form our own opinions. (Please note that I'm aware this is a gross generalization. There are many out there who do not fit into that group.) Our government supports this, in fact, counts on it for the success of its agenda. Those who choose to express a different view must be shut down. Freedom of thought causes dissension, and what government tolerates that?
Save the Children!
It inspires hope to see a committee that had greater collective intelligence than even the most stupid person, which I'm not saying the grandparent is. It boggles the mind to think that any individuals who signed that document were wealthy, aristocracy, or politicians. Hopefully, one day, modern politicians will realize that, just like embassies, this applies to military bases, as well.
Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
I told the banker I'd changed my mind and didn't want to open an account after all. His demeanor immediately changed -- he didn't say anything, but the suspicious look he gave me clearly said that only someone with something to hide would refuse to let the government check up on them.
Well, actually he might not have had any suspicion any way, but he was required to fill out a report on you about the incident since you refused to submit.
Yes I work at a financial institution, and yes we were all informed that this was a new requirement.
Welcome to the home of freedom.
My financial advisor (okay, my father-in-law) changed companies through which he sells financial products (stocks, mutual funds, retirement pakagaes, insurance packages). Thanks the the patriot act, I had extra forms to sign, and disclosures to make. $5000 Roth account? Yup, could be terrorism, you'll need to sign this disclosure. Every single account I have, every one my wife has, every one my daughter has, had to be done individually. This had to be done for all of his clients.
How has this changed from pre-PATRIOT? Before, and simple statment for each client authorizing the transfer of custody from the old comglomerate to the new one. About a ten to fifteen fold increase in paperwork. Before you complain about my complaining about a little paperwork, I ask you to consider whether this is reasonable, or whether it's akin to the "nothing must slip though" mentality that has dogged the Space Shuttle for years, and despite the "best" efforts, has still resulted in an "unacceptable" failure rate.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Ah yes, better race relations... That's a good one to bring up.
Especially all the warm fuzzies that France and Germany have towards the Jewish and African immigrants. Really the only difference (race relation-wise) between the 1930s and now is that the scope of the hatred has widened, there's no central figure like Hitler to get it really organized, and France is joining in on the fun. BTW, the better educated just seem to be throwing rhetoric rather than rocks. Can't let all that learning go to waste.
And let me head you off at the pass. No, you don't have Klansmen burning churches in the middle of the night like we have had. You have skinheads burning immigrant ghettos in the middle of night.
"This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence" - Vyvyan "The Young Ones"
On behalf of Britain, I would like to make the following announcement to the people currently inhabiting the former British colonies in North America:
You broke it, you can buy us a new one. Or not. We don't really want one anymore. Colonies are so passé these days. Either way, we don't want it back unless you get it repaired first.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
But if i told you details, they would come back to visit me..
What is that noise out in the bac *click*
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Sexual discrimination is the rule, not the exception. A woman with the same qualifications as the male coworker doesn't get promoted, and a woman doing the same job as a man gets paid less. This is the truth.
Thats right and women in the service industry are preferred to men - look at strippers - I could never make as much as a female with double D's.
I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
> Being gay in the military makes the other guys uncomfortable. That isn't good if you want high morale.
High morale? Take a look at the morale in Iraq. It has nothing to do with gays.
And what if a group of soldiers from Alabama are uncomfortable with black people? Should the blacks be dishonorably discharged because they "let it slip" that they're black? Discriminating for one bad reason or for another bad reason -- neither one is right, regardless of the bullshit reasoning you give.
The soldiers aren't there to feel comfortable, they are there to kill. If you don't like the gay guy in your unit, TOUGH SHIT. You are there to take orders, not to fucking make new friends and have a goddamned "we love each other in a nonsexual way" party!
http://sg1archive.com/nightmare.shtml
(I am the wife of the target of the investigation, aka "HurricaneMB" in the attached comments.)
The story was posted on slashdot a while back too, but I don't have the link at the moment. The slashdot comments critized our story for being vague. Well, duh, there's an ongoing criminal investigation. What were we supposed to do, hand the feds their case on a silver platter? Tons of reporters called asking for more details, but our laywer, who was kinda pissed that we posted anything at all on the internet, said not to talk to them. When this is all over (hopefully sometime next year), we will tell our story in much more detail.
And yes, it did influence our vote for President.
My wife and I applied for a Home Depot Expo credit card before we begin redoing our kitchen. We listed both of our incomes since together they were pretty high and because my credit is much better than that of my wife, we hoped to up her score (long story short, her credit is much better now but I digress...) Well I get a letter stating that I am approved and she can be a cardholder but they cannot issue a joint account. I call Expo's credit services to inquire why I can't have a joint account-was it my wife's credit? Was it something else... The minimum waged person answering the phone says to me: "It's because of the PATRIOT ACT." I stopped for a second, paused in disbelief, and said: "The PATRIOT ACT?" She responded: "Yes, the PATRIOT ACT." Okay so now I am angry and wondering if I am suddenly considered a terrorist threat (which after that Franks and Beans dinner last night may actually be....) I ask to speak to a supervisor... Supervisor gets on the phone, very nicely, explains that due to the increased paperwork and documentation required by the PATRIOT ACT, Home Depot and Home Depot Expo no longer give out joint accounts, only a second card for applicants spouses... I ask incredulously, "The PATRIOT ACT?" She says "Yes." Because of potential money-laundering issues, banks and other financial institutions have to keep track of every social security number and new account... Now I can understand that you can get fertilizer and diesel fuel at a Home Depot or at least the fertilizer, and borrow one of their cute little trucklets, but give me a break. If we had a joint account we'd have almost double our credit line. Now it pays for my wife to open a separate account... The worst part, Home Depot still hasn't changed their credit application and nowhere in the disclosures does it mention the lack of availability of joint accounts...
That's crap. Ever heard of Jean Marie Le Pen? Pym Fortune? Joerg Haider? These guys reached power levels equivalent to David Duke in the US, but after their exposure as racist demagogues, they were cast out by a repulsed public.
We both have our isolated nutters, but isolated incidents like lynchings and neo-nazi firebombs are not the worst of racism; you've still got entrenched, institutional, Jim Crow racism across the Southern states. You've got government agencies seemingly involved with schemes to disenfranchise black voters, and stirring Islamophobia at every turn.
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
> let's not go so far as to endorse their personal problems
How true... For instance, I don't endorse your unwarranted bigotry and fear.
But does that mean we shouldn't strive to improve? Things can always be better...
90% Professional Slacker
Don't forget Russia, China, Sweden, etc
Any time I see more "order enforcing" laws come into effect, I'm reminded of my favorite Thomas Jefferson quote:
"A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order, will lose both and deserve neither."
I just wish that fear didn't still have such a grip on this country! Unfortunately, largely because of fear, we have to deal with another 4 years of Cheney/Bush... I just hope that Bush has the sense to "clean house" with his cabinet! Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, and Wolfowitz come to mind...
- Hawkeye
"...The smart and lazy ones I make my commanders." - Erwin Rommel
Exactly. Let me live my own life, and don't force me to apply tax breaks or extend employment benefits to mixed-sex "spouses"! If I want to be single, why should I suffer?
Blar.
If I go to Walmart and purchase a $1000 money order, I must show valid ID, which is then logged into a book before I can purchase the money order.
This is directly because of the USA Patriot Act.
Why should I have to show ID to purchase a $1000 money order?
timothy mcveigh was pretty clean cut from what i recall. in fact, his hair was pretty closely shaven as he was a military sort of guy.
and look at all those "unix gurus"... are they terrorists? probably, they don't like microsoft.
please me, have no regrets.
Troll? Well, fuck you too. It's not like I care about my karma.
Being good at it, doesn't mean being right at doing it, though.
It may not make it right. But, unfortunately, most of the rest of the world subscribes to it. This is why we have armed forces. You may see this as a lowest common denominator, but to much of the rest of the world it is the greatest common denominator as well.
No one likes the preverbial "killing thousands to save millions", yet sometimes it's the only way. The members of the armed forces volunteer to do this dangerous, last resort work which is anything but pretty. And that's the beginning of why they are brave.
[One of the reasons we spend so much on getting advanced weapons is to provide the ability to _appear_ that we can kill millions. This alone can prevent the killing thousands part and save all those lives. The motivation of fear is the same, but the outcome is ideal: no weapons used, no additional lives lost]
If the (entire) world was able to find solutions to all problems and differences through discussion, we wouldn't need an armed forces.
- Sig
Look to the future when all the "hub-bub" has died down and people aren't paying attention, people in power will USE the power that is in there and start taking advantage of it.
Oh and I can hear people saying... The American people won't put up with that...
To those people I say BULL FREAKING SHIT!!! Look at this election. It is obvious that 51% percent of the people in this country don't care about the FACTs enough to vote for this ASSHOLE (George Duhbya Bush) again...
Those people... Those "(D)Uhmerkans", 51% percent, are like the SHEEP in Orwell's Animal Farm. You just keep listening to those pigs. Let them keep subtly changing the rules and you just keep rolling over and taking like good little sheep. You probably let them wipe off on your fur and thank them.
Do I think it would be different with Kerry in office? YES!!!! He would at least bring us back from hells gate. Our position in the world wouldn't be one of bully. Our economy would turn around because people wouldn't be freaking out everytime the Homeland Security Office get poked by the Bush Admin to change the level.
But then this is TYPICAL for America. We always chose CRAP over QUALITY! This is the classic Beta versus VHS. Bush is VHS, Kerry Beta. Beta didn't do their marketing right and VHS lied and convinced more people.
Oh well, nobody really cares. Those that do didn't win.
~G
It has, but under the terms of the USAPATRIOT act, I am not allowed to provide any details.
"They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
You assume that the VP has much say in a government. hell the President is pretty much a figurehead.
that I probably won't ever work in the USA, or even go back to visit in the near future.
The USA is now a fascist state, and that is very sad. Since Bush just got re-elected, things are only going to get worse.
It is interesting and Ironic that the original use of "terrorisim" meant "when a government controls its OWN populace by means of fear and terror" and refers to the french "Reign of Terror". (Louis the 14th? I don't remember.)
Terrorisim is *STILL* an example of a government controlling its own populace using fear, just now however the object of that fear is vague and foreign, and so sustainably diffuse.
Remember, the Population Control Color today is Orange. There is a "credible threat" that something somewhere may be threatened, but we have no information about anyone anywhere threatening anthing in particular in within any spesific timeframe.
Dazzeling.
Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
While at the state fair, saw a booth set up by some nonprofit group and had some fliers from www.bordc.org It's a good site that is quite pertinent to this topic and is worth visiting. I argue about the USA-P act with others, and the frequent questions I get about it is that if people are mostly honest and innocent, why worry? Unfortunately, I think that the general populace will have to lose all their freedoms to appreciate what they have now and what is in jeopardy of being lost. I have heard that one cannot specifically say that the act has identified terrorists because it has not really created anything new, but merely expands existing powers. Most people are not cognizant of things that happen slowly like the changing of the seasons. All of a sudden, one just finally realises it. It will be the same thing with civil liberties and freedoms.
-- After all is said and done, more is said than done.
I have to say that the Patriot Act has effected my life and the lives of my house mates (I live in a 16 person co-op in Southern California) in a very real and devastating way. Last September one of my house mates was detained at gun point and held for 4 days on suspision of an eco-terrorist act. He was accused of setting fire to and vandalizing several hummers and SUV's at local dealerships (though at the time of his arrest and the search of the co-op we did not know this). The afternoon, evening and night after he was detained the co-op was raided. We were not show a warrant until significantly after they had entered the house. Nor were we allowed to watch the search in progress and were forced to wait outside on the other side of the street. When we were finally allowed back into the house at around 4am we found they had taken computers, address books, photos, environmental literature (we never quite figured out what exactly this meant since the co-op has an environmental/sustainable theme, this could have been any number of things) as well as stranger things like rope, dirty underwear and the likes. The house was thrashed. We were finally given everything (we think) back about 2 months after the raid, the vague nature of the receipt and general mess they left things in made it hard to tell what exactly had been taken. One of my house mates slowly spiraled into paranoia and ended up leaving convinced that the rest of us were spying on him. The rest of us have learned how to live with the understanding that the phones and house were/are probably taped. We are left to try to draw the line between reasonable suspision and paranoia, which is not always easy. We later found out that a neighbor called the hot line set up by the Patriot Act to report an increase in activity at the house on the night in question (we had 2 new house mates moving in). The other "evidence" in the affidavit we were able to get ahold of seems equally thin. Apparently being a fairly large group of about a dozen or so 20-somethings-year-olds living together is also suspicious. They also tapped cell phones, staked out the house and followed cars of various house mates. The Joint Terrorist Taskforce was the official umbrella title of the several agencies who showed up that day of the raid. The Patriot Act and trend in the country that this indicates frankly scares me. It's real and it does have an effect on people's lives. It saddens me greatly that Bush won this past election. -Kathe
... at Customs for your bootleg DVDs.
Just try taking pictures of a bridge or a military installtion though... oh, wait, you can get arrested for that in the US now.
never mind.
However it is still legal to wear a Free Tibet T-Shirt in the US, as far as I know.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
-1 Bigot
Bottles.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=128204&cid=107 08775
Is this the one you're referring to? There's not a single detail there.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
Therefore, the grandparents assertion has at least some credible foundation.
"When you lose your career, property, privacy, and education then come and tell me it's not that bad."
I nearly lost my children to the government even though I committed no crime. I had to lay out something like $60,000 to get them back. It had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with George Bush, John Ashcroft, or any other Republican. It was the politically correct "liberal" Nazis at work, and I'm sure they are busy in your community too trying to figure out how to snatch your children (if you have any).
Quit letting the ACLU and other leftist orgainzations mislead you into obsessing about nothing and wake up to the real threats to your rights. Like so many other media-manipulated pawns at slashdot, you've been brainwashed and you don't even know it.
I watch Brit Hume on Fox News
Tip: Sanitize your diary/blog. As a young woman, you're telling the world *WAY* too much about yourself.
If this really occurred, GET A LAWYER. The enemy of your friend has filed a false report with a federal law enforcement agency, and they're not being prosecuted for it.
Now, I have family in NEOA, and I have a clue about how long it takes enforcement to bust KNOWN ARMED CRACK DEALERS. You expect me to believe that SWAT-level force was used to put pressure on an innocent 18/19 year old girl and her boyfriend, for check fraud? BULLSHIT
I know, you're 18, and your parents are getting divorced, and they're selling your house, so you need attention.... and a story like that sounds great on slashdot.
Yeah, I'm an asshole. You're a liar. What's worse?
We can change this law if we can convince legislators of a better alternative. That alternative will gain even more traction if it has the backing of a multitude of citizens.
The problem: 19 men with stolen ID and box-cutters successfully killed 3000 people and cost our economy over $1B.
The current solution:
- open judicial loopholes previously available exclusively to the ATF to the FBI investigating terrorists.
- reduce the ability of foreign nationals to enter the country with fraudulent ID.
I hear a lot of complaining, but not a lot of solutioning.
Beware: I believe all are created equal, and have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
You don't have to give samples of your DNA to enter the country. Period. If you're involved in a serious crime (rape, murder) you might, but in that situation citizens "have to" as well.
Beware: I believe all are created equal, and have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Two words:
Jose Padilla.
Just because it is not stated explicitly doesn't mean it isn't interpereted that way.
~X~
"Take me to prison before I commit a crime."
~X~
This is almost funny if it wasn't so twisted. I argue in favor of labeling McVeigh as a terrorist and you go off the deep end about the military. I don't particularly believe our military is doing right either but they have some very different situations. They are being given orders by significant authority figures, just for starters. They are also trained and conditioned to do the things they do and to take such authority for granted. They aren't there to think, they're there because the brains behind the lines need certain jobs to get done and are for one reason or another too valuable for them to risk doing it themselves. You can hardly blame the soldiers for being the products of such conditioning. My specific beef has to do more with the "soldier" versus the "warrior" mentality. A warrior is fighting for a cause and a soldier is fighting because they were told to fight. This frees the soldier from any personal responsibility for the things they do and I really think that if you're going to kill someone, *anyone* you need to really get in, get your hands dirty and hold yourself accountable for the things you do. The conditioning of our soldiers is set up to produce precisely the opposite effect. They aren't supposed to have a conscience when following orders. I think the conditioning itself is a terrible thing to do to a person, to reduce them to that mechanical unquestioning robotic mindset and the things they do while brainwashed in such a way are equally terrible. But none of this has *anything* whatsoever to do with McVeigh. He set out with the expressed purpose of killing civilians. Not just of killing "targets" who may or may not be civilians but specifically with the purpose of attacking civilians. This is what sets him apart from the soldiers you deride.
I just found out there's no such thing as the real world. It's just a lie you've got to rise above. - John Mayer
Terrorism refers to the methodology of using violence to incite a fearful reaction from a civilian population, for the purpose of achieving a political, religious or social goal. Terrorist acts can be carried out by individuals, groups, or governments.
... the US carries out terrorist attacks all the time in Iraq, and Israel all the time in Palestine. Bomb a house, blow up natives, some of whom may be better matches than others for the "terrorist" label ... sounds like violence to incite a fearful reaction from a civilian population.
If you think this post is the result of a left or right wing bias, you are wrong. If you think it is from a sense of humor, you are wrong. If you can't figure it out, try thinking harder.
Infuriate left and right
Well, I think the way it's probably panning out right at this moment, the banks are only really paying attention when the checks being cashed are for someone *outside the country* - since that's where all the "terrorist scares" lie.
I know my bank does at least some cursory looking-over what I try to deposit though.... Not too long ago, I had an insurance settlement check written out to both me and a dealership that I told them I was going to have do the repair work on my car. The bank sent it back to me, and even called me on the phone to inform me they couldn't cash the check - because it had BOTH parties written on it. They wanted me to get the dealership to sign it too.
"I take it you've never been to a reservation."
I have but it was a long time ago and I don't think it was a poor reservation so I'm willing to take most of what you say at face value except that I do believe that all Native Americans are considered full US citizens and don't know of any laws saying otherwise.
I guess thats why I don't understand how they're considered discriminated against. They're full US citizens on top of which they're pretty much tax exempt and the have land (even if its not the best land, its land) which is tax free and at least in MA if you can prove a certian amount of Native American heritage you basicly get a free ride at any state run college or university. Even if the reservations are poor they don't have to remain there.
I'm sure that there are poeple who discriminate against native americans I just don't think that its that widespread.
Just my view of things.
--HC
So I'm jump'n up and down screaming show me the money.
...it's chipping away at my civil rights. No longer is the first ammendment 100% inclusive anymore! It has moved from "freedom of speech" to "freedom of speech unless you say..."
(A)bort, (R)etry, (I)gnore?_
So? "On average" means that in a large group there are a lot of individuals being discriminated.
women are not willing to devote their whole lives to a job.
A lot of women are, though. They are working much harder, with better results, than their male counterparts, and still don't get promoted. I've seen this happen many, many, times. Most men just close their eyes, and at worst they consider skilled, talented, women a threat themselves.
while true;do echo -e -n "\033[s\n\033[u\134_\033[B";done
er, Britain and France for starters.
You know the one they implanted in the back of our skulls to monitor our thoughts. Every so often it starts hurting, but thats about it for how its affected me.
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
I don't asume much. I just don't understand it. How can Bush clearly have won when things are clearly almost 50%-50%. Last I heard there was a posibility that the VP could be DM with the President GOP.
Your President might be a figurehead. I think he is pretty powerfull. I don't know what scares me more, if the actions of the president are the result of him being a figurehead or doing what he thinks is best.
My point is that the actions of the president don't seem to have to represent nearly 48% of the voters in the nation. But maybe living in a country with a Queen, I don't understand the concept of a president very well. (NL)
Congress gives him his power and can take it away. The war with Iraq wouldn't have happened without authorization from Congress. So I focused on those races.
I hope I get this post to meta moderate because it surely isn't a troll. I was educated by canadians, russians, germans, and a couple Brits. I'm not dumb because I wasn't educated by Americans. Without immigration the US wouldn't exist. Everyone with the exception of the north american indiginous peoples, (Cree, Blackfoot, Cherokee, Apache, Inuit, etc) everyone is an immigrant or a child of immigration. Einstein was an immigrant, Eli Whitney was an immigrant. many of the people who worked on the early space program were immigrants. heck a bunch of Canadians from Avro worked on Gemini. I think julesh has an excelent point to be made, and definately doesn't deserve to be moderated as a troll.
funny how that post didn't get moded :P
I agree with you on the previous point however...
Black Helicopters follow me everywhere and I need to wear a tinfoil shoes as well as my tinfoil hat to keep them out of my head!!!!!!!
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
don't know and that worries me.
Fortunately, it seems as though both Ashcroft and Tom Ridge are likely to stand down for "personal reasons" around the time that Bush reshuffles his advisers. (This rumour has hit several mainstream news channels as I write, some attributing it to a White House source, but I've not seen anything concrete as a source yet.)
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
In which case, anyone who's in a monogamous marriage had better head on over to the asylum right behind "al dem queers 'n dykes", because monogamy certainly isn't a natural tendency for humans either. (Don't confuse this with forming families/communities and a desire to protect our young, both of which are.)
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I definately get edgy in airports, even dropping people off. I know who's working in TSA and airport rent a cops, and always get the vibe that they want to make a big bust. They are also notoriously dim, and I get nervous when dim people have the authority to arbitrarily revoke my rights/privilages.
I've also become aware of how my behavior in certain public places may draw unusual and unwanted attention. I was shooting some pics on a bike trail near my home, which follows along a river parkway, containing a hydro dam. I took some pics of the dam and fisherman at the base of the dam, then suddenly noticed them all looking back up at me from a couple of hundred yards away. Folks on the trail riding by looked at me strangely as well. I stopped cold in my tracks and rode on, a little resentful I had to watch my back taking leisure photos.
Another instance was when I was shooting some pics of intepretive wildlife kiosks for a lake. There is a TRACON facility right across the road from the lake's north shore, and it's impossible to take photos w/o including photos of their front entrance. A guard came out to the street while I was shooting a couple of shots, asked me how long I was going to be, then went back into his guard shack, still staring at me. I got the hell out of there and continued on around the lake, but it irrked me that they would think Mr. Honky with a bad tan and digital camera would be surveiling them.
I work in IT and had to create online trainings for a major financial company in USA. I had to read through the whole thing.
How it affected me?
- I had a nausea for 3 days after reading through the first chapters.
- I felt like I was back in middle-age seeing all the restrictions on privacy being enumerated one after the other.
- I felt sorry for all you people who actually have to apply it or live with it.
- It was the definitive reason why I would never immigrate to USA, although I've been given many occasions to do so.
Honestly and IMHO from my outsider point of view, americans should fight to have this bill removed. It's a threat to personal freedom and a dangerous shift toward fascist practices. (and YES, I had to read this thing! So I am not speculating)Being gay in the military makes the other guys uncomfortable.
You know, they made that argument against having blacks in the military, too.
You know what? The kind of guy that can't handle being around a gay man is not the kind of person that it is in our interest to entrust with the defense of our nation - they're clearly too stupid to handle it.
When someone behaves in a way that obviously isn't natural, one would think that there is something wrong with that person.
It's completely and totally natural, chief.
"But they can't reproduce!" I hear you exclaim. Kin selection, dude. Duh. Homosexuality is totally natural, and even genetically advantageous, in some ways.
Not to mention, gay people do reproduce, in exactly the same way heterosexuals do - by the union of sperm from a man and ovum from a woman. Apparently somebody missed the fact that the desire to have sex and the capability to reproduce are two entirely different things.
I never have frustrations, the reason is, to wit:
If at first I don't succeed, I quit!
Well, it's all speculation - but Bill Gates is a pretty smart guy, whether you like his products or not.
Rather than doing things that would get Microsoft "sued out of existance", I suspect he would have actually just done things differently to remain quite successful while not running too far afoul of laws that would destroy his business.
Why do they misrepresent products? Because it's the status-quo for commercial software! To look at it another way, "Why not?" Who ever really got in trouble for doing it? People sell buggy software applications that don't work as promised every day - and companies other than Microsoft sell the most expensive ones I know of. Look at ERP systems like "OneWorld" or specialized applications that handle inventory and bills of lading for shippers, or even specialty apps to manage Doctor or Dentist offices. Much of this stuff is, honestly, garbage, with HUGE price tags both during and after the sale (by way of support contracts). In this climate, of course Microsoft opts to run things the same way.
There is a very interesting historical parallel drawn between Cassus of Rome, Hitler of Germany, and Bush of the US regarding "fake terror" used to start wars so that citizens voluntarily give up their rights. Peruse at will: Fake Terror
-- _ music: http://www.quantazelle.com _ _ label: http://www.subVariant.com _ _ magazine: http://www.modsquare.com _
They presented a skit showing two alternative State of Union Addresses some time after the 2000 election.
The Gore speech was incredibly boring, of course, but totally harmless.
The Bush Address (featuring Will Farrell) was the funnier one. It showed him chuckling at his desk while behind him the Capitol Dome was caved in and Washington was on fire.
I'd like to see the skit again to check how closely it matches what's actually happened over the past four years, but unfortunately SNL hasn't repeated it (to my knowledge). I wonder why?
I'm in favor of getting the state out of the marriage business altogether. But why do we have to absurdly claim that the a gay relationship is the same as a hetero one. Right off the wheel, a hetero couple is going to most likely make babies, whereas gays won't. The emotional interplay between a man and a woman, especially if she's pregnant, is completely different than what a man and a man or a woman and a woman is, and so gay unions should be called something else. It's like, an apple is an apple and a PC is a PC. Sure, extend gays every legal right to partner up, but don't call it marriage, because its not.
Of course, if you want to use that logic that two people kinda together is married, well, then, why not also add the logic that someone that shows up at college graduated?
This is my sig.
Slavery, blacks: Slaves were freed by a Republican - Lincoln. Blacks were set free (civil rights) starting with Eisenhower sending in troops, another Republican. Eisenhower and Bush I were the only ones to appoint a black to the Supreme court - both Republican's. In short, Republican's have always helped blacks more than the Dem's. They only help if they have no choice (see Johnson and civil rights act notes, signed almost over his dead body). Welfare, food stamps, head start - Bob Dole bills - another Republican. The Dem's lie and say they did these things. The proof is in the written record, they didn't.
Back then the Republicans were very liberal. In fact the most liberal party the US have ever had. Would you say they still are?