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EU Intent on Hosting International Fusion Reactor
Raunch writes "The BBC says that EU is determined to be one of the sites that host the multi-billion-dollar International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor Even if they have to do so less-than-internationally: 'If there is no agreement at six we are determined to do it with fewer.' Not only that, but 'The EU wants an agreement on the project before the end of the year'"
No, it's not the US putting up a fight. No, it's not the US that would probably be shut out in the cold. This is a threat against Japan and to a lesser extent China. Can we please keep the US vs. Europe flamewar out of this thread?
A deadline? Wait .. I thought the purpose of government was to prevent things from getting done. Couldn't have happened anywhere else but the US^H^H^H EU!
Steal This Sig
There is certainly a big fat chunk of change to wind up in the host country. With costs spread across 6 contributing countries, and even if the host country has to pay a larger share, that is all money going into:
- local construction companies (high end ones)
- local infrastructure (data, transport, etc)
- ongoing salaries being spent in the local villages
- pride for the news bylines containing $GLORIOUS_MOTHERLAND
I understand the US is pretty agnostic to location (realizing that the one thing all the other 5 could agree that it would absolutely not be the US)-- but with recent developments where Paris is not so much the US friend, and Tokyo is ever more loyal, I wouldn't be surprised if the US starts to put its thumb on the scales...
davejenkins.com |
This is something so important to the people of the world, and all the politicians can think of is to fight about where it will be placed.
I just wish, for once, these people would get out of their petty mindsets and realize that the more important issue here is NOT where it's going to be, but what it is going to do.
Er, go ahead with the flaming about the evil terrorists who will destroy the reactor or take over the worlds energy sources now.
StrayByte.Net
A significat new energy source is going to be huge, especially with world demand for oil (due to the growth in Chinese industry) rising to the point where its pushing supply to the limits...
Supposedly this reactor would represent the last major step required before, hopefully, fusion power stations could become a reality. The EU very naturally wants t locate it in Europe, thus giving Europe a stronger edge and focus in alternative energy research.
Interestingly the alternate site is not in the US, but rather in Japan. And that is certainly what the EU is worried about - the Japanese economy, afte a decade and more of recession is finally starting to crawl back. And the Japanese are very good at small and efficient, and are already leading the world (jointly with Korea I guess) in alternative power transport (hybrids, and hydrogen fuel cell cars).
It will be interesting to see how the fight finally plays out.
Jedidiah.
Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
I guess it's to speed up the filming of Terminator 4.
delay the fusion project. Reason: oil industry. I attended a presentation about the technical background of Fusion(tokamak) reactors in Hungary last year. Probably 2036 is the time when the first feasible fusion reactor could have started working, that was the plan a year ago. It happens to be at the same time when oil supplies run out. If these kind of reactors make it before that time, oil companies lose money. And thats a thing the USA wont let.
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
I'm tired of the Euros and their damned 'go it alone' attitude! The world just became a more dangerous place.
If thou see a fair woman pay court to her, for thus thou wilt obtain love
EU Intent on Hosting International Fusion Reactor
No. I should read 'France Intent on Hosting International Fusion Reactor'. France and Japan have been battling over the reactor since the project was announced. It looks like the consortium will splinter. That is not a bad thing. It might inject some real high stakes competition into nuclear fusion reaseach.
an ill wind that blows no good
Yeah, the EU used to kill each other, but they're all friends now!
I hope they get this wrangling over the site over with soonish and get down to building something. We need some abundant energy source pretty soon to avoid either global anarchy when the fossil fuels run out or global catastrophe when we gas the planet with CO2. ITER is the best chance yet. I bet there'll be cool science/technology spin-offs too.
The world is everything that is the case
This is all wrong. Its not a nuclear reactor. Its a fusion reactor. It has million and million C hot plasma in it(4th state of materials). The shape of the reactor is called tokamak (at least in hungarian, not sure about the correct english writing of it). The really good thing about this reactor that its not dangerous. While in nuclear reactors, some events can lead into a chain reaction. No such thing can happen in a fusion reactor, since If the reaction gets more input(materials, heat, etc) its just shuts itself down, on the contrary to the exponential reaction observed in nuclear reactions. The fusion reactor is one of the cleanest if not the cleanest known way to produce energy.
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
Sorry to reply to my own post, but here are some interesting things: There is already a working fusion reactor in the UK. This one though, not generates but consumes power. It's because the reactor is too small, it needs to have a big enough size for the reaction inside to be self-sustaining, and its not big enough for that. The first reactor which would actually produce power, is what the debate about atm.
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
Well, we already off load most of our CO2 production to third world countries and china, the decline in manufacturing and farming (yes farting cows) is significantly helping to reduce our CO2 levels.
The outsourcing of work to other countries is also keeping our inflation low, cheep imports=low inflation, we hardly produce any food in this country.
So don't be greedy, let a heavily polluting country like China or a country with next to no resources like Japan have the pride in have a fusion research faculty.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
um yeah that's right, France has a really big problem with "terrorists" and people disliking them don't they? Unlike, say the US.
I can only think of one country that actually dislikes the French at the moment and that's the US.
Can't help thinking that the word "Experimental" in the name is going to frighten people unnecessarily.
I've had the theme tune to Quantum Leap going through my head all day... Now you have, too!
But who will pay the electric bill
Philip
Signatures are broken
If our supplies of coal and oil even get close to drying up before we can mass produce electricity from fusion generators then the world is in big trouble. Not only do we rely on oil for our light and heat but for transport of *all* goods, food and clothes. Our economies and lives would be thown into turmoil and you can bet that the powerful countries won't object to war to solve these problems (maybe they are doing so already?) Our civilisation hinges upon our supplies of energy (see Last and First Men :) and this makes research into fusion power the most important endevour of our time.
With regards the EU making the world a more dangerous place comment, I can only assume that was a joke.
Japan, no oil, full of nuclear reactors. French has lots of nukes too, and I don't think people in the UK would mind too much either.
We do however object to Americans and Religious people being the two groups who have given us the most grief 'ever' I expect.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
You are so ignorant.
This is a fusion reactor, not a fission reactor. When things go wrong in a fission reactor there is the possibility of a meltdown, etc. This possibility does not exist in a fusion reactor. If something goes wrong, the reaction stops and in a worst case scenario, there's a fire. Nothing worse than your average coal plant, except for the fact that it's not emitting tonnes of carbon dioxide.
And you think that's less dangerous than having terrorists out to get you?
---
We spoke for about a half an hour. I don't recall a thing we said. - Colorblind James Experience
You say that as a joke, but for the most part, it's true. There is very little turmoil within the limits of the EU at the moment.
while true;do echo -e -n "\033[s\n\033[u\134_\033[B";done
With the cost of Iraq war draining at about $1.5B per week, it roughly takes 1 month of war for 1 reactor, in monetary terms.
If you think those governments opposed the war just because there were no WMDs or Iraq wasn't involved in 9/11, you must be just as nuts as George Bush. :)
They opposed the war for the same reason they wanted sanctions lifted: Oil contracts, loans to Saddam and whatnot.
All i remember from visiting the site is the colors. They hurt, a lot!
:P
Oh and the website feedback form with the pastel green text on a slightly darker shade of pastel green background asking how do i find the color schemes. Sadly there was no option for "This is not 1995".
I didn't rtfa, i'd rather not explode my eyes some more. This site makes me wish for a monochrome screen
100% of statistics are wrong.
Old news. It was mentioned in the French mainstream press on September 24th. (my submission got rejected, though)
;p). Which means that upon its completion, the US will have to play catch-up on fusion technology for the following 50 years.
Back on topic, it'd strike me as odd to put our last resort for our energy future in a country renowned for its earthquakes.
What if it got destroyed before it could be fully tested? It would be a disaster of epic proportions.
This said, it is a shame the US dropped the ball on this crucial issue. The way I see it, ITER will be done by the EU, Russia and China alone. If no agreement can be reached, America will not be a part of the project any more (can't really surrender to those pesky French, can we?
Once upon a time, America was at the forefront of science and technology. How could we let this happen? I am appalled at this utter lack of foresight.
What terrorists?
while true;do echo -e -n "\033[s\n\033[u\134_\033[B";done
I can only think of one country that actually dislikes the French at the moment and that's the US.
Not to be a French apologist, but have you heard of Algeria?
Uhh, what innocent country is that? Ivory Coast?
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
With having 2 seperate projects. One US/Japan and an intra EU project? OK - it increases costs but a few billion is hardly significant in governmental terms. Hopefully they would engage in knowledge sharing and figure out who did what best and how TOGETHER their creations are greater than the sum of its parts...
Or maybe I'm just hoping for some rational, reasonable thinking and not politics.... Hmmm... That'll be the day....
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Japan is full of fission reactors. If they keep those from being destroyed, they can probably keep the fusion reactor going too.
Ya, too bad we've had cold fusion up and running at area51 since the 70's. We just like to laugh at everyone else throw their money into dead-ends.
QUOTE: "If I were a fusion scientist going to work on ITER, I'd much prefer to live in beautiful France than in the sparsely populated bit of North Japan where ITER would be built."
Yeaahhh... but that's not the point!
1. Which location will make a better video game when it all goes sour and opens a spiraling portal to Dark Aether?
2. You don't want the scientists to be distracted by the svelte natives.
3. Don't do that!
RTFA! It is a fusion reactor! Totally different technology! I had one down the street from me years ago in Princeton, NJ. Too bad the program was cut after they started having breakthroughs. I hear one of the unemployed physicists had to work at Best Buy to get by for a while because there are not many job postings for this line of work.....
or all the Muslims that aren't allowed to wear their scarves?
Eh? So you apear to be saying that its OK to throw your toys out the pram as long as it ends in war? So who would you suggest we pick on? To follow the American tradition it has to be a small country with minimal resources, ie someone easy to beat, but with some kind of tenuous link to 'evil'.
I suggest here.
Unfortunately, the current French president's opponent in the last election was the leader of one of the anti-Islam, anti-immigration parties, guaranteeing a win.
-mkb
Speaking as a Brit, we don't like the French either! Or the Welsh for that matter. Its just one of those things! ;-)
Am I the only one to find this post really amusing in the current international diplomatic climate? ITER 's location has been in negociations for years. Specifically for non-war related negociations, there has to be a time where you admit that you won't find an agreement with the other parties and try to find a solution to the problem your own way. A lot of people seem to disagree currently as to wheteher you can do the same thing with international discussions about whether or not to wage a war on a given country, but it surely is a valid aprroach for research cooperation. As to whether the ITER discussion have reached this point or not, and whether the EU is right in trying to force the issue, I won't choose a side since I don't know the details of the negotiations.
I don't have much to add.
0. I hope ITER is committed to open sourcing the technology once it is developed. 1. I believe we need to start deploying fusion reactors as soon as we can safely do so. 2. Energy / oil companies are probably not going to lose any money in the deal because they are going to be the ones building and operating fusion reactors so they do not need to worry that much. 3. The only losers in this will likely be the major oil producing nations. 4. I would rather have all-electric cars powered by cheap energy produced by fusion reactors rather than hydrogen-powered ones {hydrogen powered vehicles have a tendency to explode}. Live long and prosper
You do know they are only banned in state schools, right? And only girls wear them? Just how much damage do you think these French Muslim schoolgirls are going to do?
Not only fusion, but also secret inteligent squirles...
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
With all the writing this guy does, on physics, the stock market and on other stuff, you wonder where he finds the time to do any actual research. Reading his 'proof' about the limits on output of a fusion reactor, I can draw only one conclusion: he's a crackpot.
Oh and in between cracking the secrets to the stockmarkets and proving wrong all the eminent scientists who believe fusion power can work, he also solved the problem of the Grand Unified Theory of Physics, according to his website.
This is not intended as a flame; but I have some serious problems taking this guy seriously.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
...than they are at building their website. That home page is truly awful, with very little real text and everything done with images. If you want to visit with Lynx, or if you're a search engine, bad luck.
Ydco co
I was under the impression that the US was neutral on the issue of site location
I quote:
"Looney said that "If the US joins ITER it would not be as a lead player." The United States is "absolutely neutral" as to where the facility would be located..."
From:
http://www.aip.org/fyi/2003/065.html
Hey, mod this up! +10 insightful! Never seen a more witty or erudite reply in all my years on Slashdot!
What if it blows up ? .. it is a Thermonuclear reactor ... Oh, God what have I done, I've got common sense.
But hell, I want it to be in EU for other reasons.Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
Back on topic, it'd strike me as odd to put our last resort for our energy future in a country renowned for its earthquakes. What if it got destroyed before it could be fully tested? It would be a disaster of epic proportions.
I understand it's a hard concept to grasp for people living in areas that are never struck by earthquakes, so let me explain. Little quakes are a mere nuissance. There's hardly ANY structural damage. Also, even within Japan, there are areas that are never affected by earthquakes. This is where the majority of fission (yes, I said fission!! Not Fusion! RTFA!) reactors are placed in remote areas of Japan, which are never affected. Places like Fukushima and Niigata. Woops! Niigata was just hit by an earthquake. However, the reactors were fine. They're build to withstand severe quakes. (Honestly, it isn't that hard. It does, however, cost a lot of money.)
If there's something to worry about nuclear reactors (fission, fusion, what not) in Japan, it's NOT the earthquakes. The Japanese (specifically the electricity companies) have, over the course of the last 5 years, demonstrated how they are unable to properly run one of these. They have the tech to build them, and run them, but the internal bureaucracy of the electric companies results in dangerous practice. IF they had properly followed the manuals, none of the accidents that have occured over the last 5 years would have ever occured. (Google it, there are a few to freak out over.)
This brings me to the reason why I don't like nukes. Nukes are safe, when properly handled. They can be contained. However the keyword is "when properly handled", and even though people understand HOW to do this, they just don't. Human error is the reason for almost all nuclear accidents. And as long as people run these things (including computer programs that PEOPLE write), nukes will never truly be safe.
As an interesting side note, Japan has constantly been telling it's people that Japan HAS TO use nuclear reactors, because there aren't enough natural resources, oil and coal polute, yada yada yada. Most people believed this. Until last year.
Last year, the gov't was able to prevent eventual disaster at the Fukushima nuke plants, because they found out about forged inspection results. There were several cracks in some of the pipes, and so on. So much came out, that they ordered ALL the plants be shut down there, and everything be completely re-inspected and fixed. These plants in Fukushima supposedly supplied the majority of electricity to Tokyo, so Tokyo had about 50% of it's supposed electricity sources cut off. Since Tokyo gets WAY hot and humid in the summer time, there were suppose to be rolling black outs, brown outs, and what not. It never happened, even though most of the nukes were shut down. (Some electricity was purchased from Osaka, but due to infrastructure limitations, the ammount was minimal.)
So, what happened? Everyone changed the settings on their air conditioners just 1 or 2 degrees higher than usual. Tokyo never exceeded 85% energy consumption of max available electricity, at the peak moments in the year of the most electricity consumption. Tokyo never needed nuclear plants. (For the sceptics, I should note that Japan does not have any coal burning reactors, and the majority of fire powered reactors use natural gas, not oil.)
As an interesting side note, some people in Japan claim that electric cars and trains don't reduce pollution, because they rely on electricity generated by either fire power (a term loosely used in Japan, which really means natural gas and not oil, but in this instance is suppose to create the image that it's oil) or nukes (again, nuclear contamination). However, another interesting thing happened. Niigata got earthquakes, and as a result, there was some damage to HYDRO plants that the train companies owned, which supplied anywhere from 25% to 50% of the electrical power to Tokyo trains. Mind you ,
Huh? That's one of the major differences between Europe and the US: we have multi-party politics here, not the two-party system where you get to pick between two shades of blue. So one of President Chirac's (I notice you appear to be ignorant of his name) opponents was Jean-Marie Le Penn (there's another name you appear to have been ignorant of) he was only one of *FIFTEEN* opponents which included the French Communist party through to Le Penn's right wing National Front.
The ignorance of Americans about the rest of the world constantly amazes me.
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
Why are people suggesting that this will in any way affect the US's dependancy on oil. We use oil primarily for our vehicles. Unless everyone is going to get a fusion reactor in their car or someone miraculously solves all of the problems associated with electric cars, this will have very little affect on our dependency on oil. It will have a very large affect on our coal and fission consumption.
"What makes a man turn neutral?"
You have two hands and one brain, so always code twice as much as you think!
Which is a great testament to the EU which has its foundations in France's desire to peacefully bind Germany to itself as closely as possible in order to stop yet another invasion. 3 invasions within less than a hundred years would seem to have been a bit of an incentive. (Franco-Prussian, WW1 and WW2 for the historically less-abled).
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
I seem to remember some physicists proving that bees could not fly because their wing size was not sufficiently large. It is a good thing that the bees did not know this.
He also seems to have proved that gravity is caused by sound waves. The EU might be better advised to ignore him on the grounds that he is a nutter.
Exactally. I've never heard of anyone liking the french. They dont even like themselves do they.
What a miserable bunch they are...
The Americans like the British government because it does what they say. That policy is very unpopular here in Britain, and will most likely change after the election next year.
Okay, what's the official rule on how many countries you have to include before you may use the coveted "International" logo? I always thought it was two.
the other iter members went ahead and cleared the blockade that has been laid since bush reentered iter.
The first post is completely wrong about it being a "threat" to China or anyone else. China *wants* the reactor to be built in the EU instead of Japan. So does the other ITER member, Russia. If the US hadn't opposed the french location and induced Japan to resist it more strongly despite the odds, the project would have went ahead some time ago.
Unlike nuclear fission power, fusion power has enough fuel available that it could potentially supply all of the world's energy demand for thousands and even millions of years and it doesn't produce nearly as much dangerous nuclear waste nor can fusion power be used as a disguise for a nuclear weapons program. The amount of deuterium for fusion is practically unlimited - 1 kg of ordinary water contains about 1 gram of heavy water which contains deuterium instead of common hydrogen. It seems that, unlike in the past decades where the researchers said "Fusion Power will be ready soon, there are just some issues which we expect to have resolved soon if we get more money." it now is "We have the issues resolved and could build a reactor that can sustain a fusion reaction and give a net output of energy. Now we just need the money to build a reactor sufficiently large so we can prove and make sure that it works like we think it does."
Of course with such a pretty-much-as-cheap-as-coal technology available as the solar tower that is so simple in its function, provides steady uninterrupted power, and about which relevant laws of nature are so well understood that it is guaranteed to work, it may be questionable if we actually have a reasonable need for fusion power on earth. Of course, solar towers need a sunny place to build them in order to be efficient and they don't need any high-tech to build either, which may well be the reason why the west has mostly stopped supporting the technology. Solar tower for large scale electricity production can be build with just basic construction materials like mostly cement, steel and glass(which is sand) and with labor. Ideal if you want to help many poor countries, but inadequate if you want them to stay poor and dependent to keep exploiting them.
I know this is a troll, but let's have it anyways... This stubborn American viewpoint is quite surprising. Were you following the news just before the start of the war in Iraq? Are you aware that the opposition to the American invasion was stronger in Germany? That many European and other countries opposed? That there would have been more than one veto in the security council (China, possibly Russia), so that the US not even put down a resolution to vote for, to save face? To keep putting the blame for lack of support on the French has more to do with American bias than anything else.
P.S. If you think I am French, you have proven my point.
1) Europe will finance the Japanese project, even if we *also* build our own.
2) We don't kill innocents.
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
--
USA: home of the world's largest terrorist training camp.
Awwww easy!!
No offence intended -- honest!
One of the reasons third parties don't work in the US is because of a lack of support for non-mainstream political ideas. The two-party system acts as a brake on political extremism.
In contrast, France has no lack of support of extremist political views, like Jean-Marie Le Pen (one "n", by the way.) The fact that nutty communist unions still have such a fevered grip on State policy is testament enough to France's political schizophrenia. Your "diversity" is nothing to be proud of. Should Americans be envious that France is more openly racist and is willing to dignify such views with a vote? That would be an odd assertion.
I'm sorry that my post failed to amuse you. :(
Just after I hit submit I noticed my foot stuck in my mouth! Doh!!
People in the US have not like the French for decades. I think it partly has to do with how much we butcher the French language when we speek it and partly due to the number of jokes we have about the French when it comes to war. Most of the war jokes are due to the French getting over-run repeatedly by the Prussians/Germans. It has nothing to do with France not supporting the war in Iraq/Afganistan.
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
Actually the law was written such that it could be applied to the Jewish Yamaka and the Christian Cross. It wasn't a ban on headscarves only but somewhere along the lines of "outgoing religious items"
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
The UN Oil for Food program was administered through a French bank.
by the way, has anyone seen the video where US soldiers get into a flat and begin to shoot almost dead iraquians? some of them, heavily injuried claimed for their live, but had no luck.
I have heard many things about this and part of the problem is that some of those same people hide guns and then when the troops go to get them they then open fire. I've also heard some pretending they are dead so when the troops get closer they can also shoot them.
I'm not saying what they did is right. I'm just saying that it is a bad situation. I'm also someone who believes that no matter what we do Iraq will go into a civil war since they have to religions that do not trust each other at all.
As far as the fusion reactor in france. Wasn't that where it was built in Railroad Tycoon 3 and then explodes and you have to try to save as much stuff as possible as the world floods?
Hmm i hope that game wasn't predicting the future!
Since break-even has been reached some 10 years ago in the Jet-reactor, this guy is on crack.
"Civis Europaeus sum!"
Actually, the French in Ivory Coast aren't acting as an imperial power, they are acting as peacekeepers to end the civil war there. With a UN mandata, unlike certain other people... Of course the fact that they are actually taking action against the government when it violates the terms of the ceasefire doesn't make them popular there, but it is effective.
As for principles and opposition to the war: The war had nothing to do with principles in the first place. Get over it. You might also have to accept the idea that just because someone is your ally in important matters doesn't mean they have to ask "How high?" every time you say "Jump".
no taxation without representation!
You do know what the EU is don't you? It's (roughly) 30, sovereign, nations that all agree to co-operate. When it comes to co-operation I think Europe can teach the US an awful lot.
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
Um.. have you been following the news lately? As we speak (or read), there are anti-french riots in the Ivory Coast because France is still acting like an Imperial power in Africa. The French are actually engaged in a shooting war with Ivory Coast nationalists who want the French to stop interfering in their country's internal affairs. Throughout its "former" colonies in Africa, France does not hesitate to intervene and play kingmaker.
Wrong ; we're there on the behalf of the UN. With a mandate. We've been brutally attacked, and we shot back and made sure Ivory army had no more helicopetrs to do that again. Full stop.
How about Corsica and the resistance to French colonialism there? The Corsican resistance periodically explodes bombs to try to drive the French out.
Trouble is the so-called corsican nationalists top at 9% in the democratic elections. I understand you're suggesting to let that fanatical minority have control over the 91% who feel they're as French as I am ? Or perhaps we should send the army down there to settle democracy the US way ? Same apply in New Caledonia btw. And to finish the picture, you should know there's no poll made public recently as to know wether mainland french wish to keep Corsica. For what I hear, I'm damn sure that most of us are ready to dump Corsica and give money to anybody willing to get them. But that would really be injust to the majority of perfectly normal citizens who happen to have a bunch of murderers for neighbours in their island.
France's opposition to the US war in Iraq had *nothing* to do with priciple and everything to do with * French national interests in Saddam's Oil industry - The French were willing to let a brutal dictator continue to make mass graves as long as the oil contracts flowed to french companies - blood for oil ;
USA got more than half the total money flow made through this program. Go wash your hands.
You know, HighOrbit, we've got a saying down there : "the day when idiots will fly, there will be an endless night". Hopefully, you're showing that they'll actually fly much to high to hide the sun.
Call me flamebait.
Awww... Does the ickle United Statesywaitsy not like it when the big, bad, richer, stronger, schizophrenic European Union won't play it's game?
Yes I think that was my point but switching trade to was too much for the $ to bear.
--
USA: home of the world's largest terrorist training camp.
Personally I hate Channel Islanders. Those smug bastards taunting us with their tax free living!
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
Clinton pulled out because the US wanted to experiment on fusion in a whole other are, namely firing lasers at tritium-pellets.
If you read the articles liked to the main page, you can clearly see that after 3 years the USA came back around the table, but oposed France as an area where Iter could be build, because of France's oposition to the war.
Which is really silly and childish. The USA should grow up and respect the wishes of other countries not to support an illegal war, and not try to link an international scientific endeavour with their foreign politics and their scewed worldview that the US should rule everything, blessed as it is by God Himself.
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
Urban myth. It was kind of the other way around: the fact that his model led to that result ("bees can't fly) showed something was missing from the model. Current models prove that bees can indeed fly (it has to do with how they vibrate their wings or something): which is a pretty lucky thing for the bees who apparently had previously only been kept in the air by the power of belief.
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
Re your sig: personally I prefer "Europa Universalis". And what really sticks it to the yanks is that, no matter how much they spread "US" culture it's still basically European at heart ;-)
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
..And about bureaucracy. To the eyes of EU politicians this is just an opportunity for more taxpayers' money to be spent (read: wasted) and for more *political* power.
There are some many smarter and cheaper alternatives to fusion... but why endorse them when fusion costs a thousand times more?
Yeah, he was one of 15 in the PRIMARY (which had TWO anti-immigration candidates! Woohoo!). He won the primary along with Chirac and thus the choice was between a crook and a racist. I was paying attention to the news that morning, thank you, and I saw the protests myself.
As for two-party politics, I guess it's fine for you to ignore the American Green, Constitution, Reform, and Libertarian parties.
-mkb
Ah, good old Archimedes Plutonium is still alive. In case you didn't know, that guy is a known usenet crackpot. I added him to my killfile in 1995 or so.
BNP Paribas has managed the Oil for Food program since its inception in 1996. It didn't hurt the dollar one bit, and don't see any economic reason why it should have.
Should Americans be envious that France is more openly racist and is willing to dignify such views with a vote?
And that hasn't happened in the USA? Bush has been following an anti-Islamic agenda supported by Christian fundos. Muslims are harassed and many are imprisoned in Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib and elsewhere with total disregard for human rights. There are even generals in the army talking about a "crusade" and the like. And that was BEFORE the last presidential election. Despite these horrors, he was voted in a second time.
OLPC Australia
Well, there are a whole bunch of them in Russia, where in fact they originated.
You can't handle the truth.
"The secret of government spending: why build one when you can have two for twice the price?"
In all seriousness... why not have them compete? The more competition, the better the final reactor will be.
Can you provide a link about this reactor?
How many presidential elections have those other parties won? How many seats in congress or the senate do they hold? How many state governorships?
Could the answer to all those questions possible be "none, zero, nada and bugger all"? It's not a multiparty system when the fundamenta setup favours the two incumbent parties so overwhelmingly.
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
Could the answer to all those questions possible be "none, zero, nada and bugger all"?
You know what that's the answer to? My respect for you. You're a fucking bigot. Eat a dick and choke on it.
-mkb
Hacker: Do we ever get our own way with the French?
Humphrey: Sometimes.
Hacker: When was the last time?
Humphrey: Battle of Waterloo, 1853.
This sig all sigs devours
I fail to see why the EU would care, since the current administration has already soured realtionships pretty badly. This is to be expected: If I tell my friends to go fark themselves, I should expect to be invited to fewer parties, and to see the amount of Christmas cards in my mailbox diminish. Some of my fex-friends might even be openly hostile to me.
Vote Quimby!
http://www.fusion.org.uk/
- This and all my posts are public domain. I am a Physicist. I am not your Physicist. This is not Physically advice
Normally when people agree with me on slashdot I worry but in this case I was glad to see that a few other people have formed the same opinion of this guys 'proof' as me. In other words the mans off his head and understands physics to a lesser extent than my dog (my dog doesn't come up with theories that imply that sound waves are created by gravity, you do the math). To be fair, by putting 'proved' in the quotes it deserves, I think the parent understands this.
"Physics is to math as sex is to masturbation." -R. Feynman
Um.. The United States of America are 50 sovereign states that agreed to not only loosely cooperate but to join and form a federal union. I think 200 years of having a common currency, tax system, constitution, Army, and system of laws while still maintaing local sovereignty, local constitutions, local laws, local tax systems, and even local military forces means the U.S. can teach a lot about cooperation among sovereign states. In those 200 years, our states have only fought amongst themselves once. While I applaud the EU's recent steps toward integration, you guys are still playing catch-up when it comes to being a model of inter-state cooperation. When somebody asks your nationality and you say "European" and not German or French or Italian, then you will have reached a level of complete cooperation and integration that the USA acheived long ago.
Really, the US and the EU and Japan all need to cooperate on this matter and not engage in jingoism or zero-sum games. Why can't we all work togather instead of each one doing his own unilateral thing? I can understand being a holdout when vital interests (that by definition can't be compromised), but this is not one of those issues. This fusion lab is the kind of thing that we should all be able to work togather on. Nobody's national interests are at stake here.
Read sci.physics and sci.physics.relativity, but take care your brain doesn't explode. Those newsgroups (and the fusion ones) are great for kook-watching. I should add that there are some people who really do know their stuff and will try to explain the errors of the loonies. Some even manage to stay calm (afaics) while doing it.
a note on Corsica: it is french territory, and has been for centuries! Only a handful of madmen are exploding bombs regularly, and threatening and/or killing outsiders in Corsica. The vast majority of Corsicans also consider themselves as french!
Come on! How do you think the rest of the world does business? Do you think the US or Japan, or any other country behaves differently? See Microsoft or Boeing, for example!
French politics have been more than a bit contrarian for several decades. This has diluted their influence both in the EU and in the world community in general. I'm not sure if the EU is ready to except the philosophy of "all things nuclear is in France".
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Although you dont read about it much today the anti-war groups lead by the likes of lindberg went a long way to delaying the US entry into WWII and as a result caused far more death and suffering by prolonging the war.
Hah! I would think anti-war people would NOT want the US involved in anything regarding war. But your saying anti-war activists blame the US for not going to battle in WW2 sooner is hypocrisy at it's finest.
Life is not for the lazy.
When I first read this I was thinking but isn't fusion currently incapable of producing more electricity than it consumes? Well, it turns out it is capable of producing more electricity than it consumes, but just barely. Not enough to sustain regular power generation. The record Power Amplification Factor (Q) is 1.25 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_nuclear_ fusion). This project is expected to push that factor up to 10, which is "proof of principle" but still below what is desirable for "good overall plant efficiency" (http://www.iter.org/ITERPublic/ITER/fr7.html). So that's why it's an "experimental" reactor. Based on the timeline of this project (and assuming it's successful) it looks like usable fusion reactors could be less than 50 years away.
One of the results of fusion is free neutrons, going off into whatever material surrounds the fusion process. In the case of the tokamak, neutrons can't be confined by magnetic fields because they are electrically neutral. The neutrons make the tokamak itself become highly radioactive over time, and will cause it to eventually be decommissioned because it is too dangerous to work around.
Now, granted, the tokamak can be stored unused for a hundred years or so and then recommissioned (it is a hell of a lot better than the thousand-years half-lives of fission wasteproducts), but it is still a problem that needs to be addressed.
-molo
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
The glossary is a useful link if you want to understand some of the language used by the fusion priesthood. The AP link is useful for those who enjoy a little humor with their science.
Now I'm the grandest Tiger in the Jungle!
The ignorance of Americans about the rest of the world constantly amazes me.
So does that mean that you know who the Governor of Michigan is or how many troops are under her command. How about what the GNP of Michigan is? The ignorance of the world about Americans constantly amazes me! One thing I am certain of is the stereotypical view of Americans, by any other nationality is as inacurate as my stereotypes of them.
Oh and about Multi-party ballots, my ballot had candidates fot the Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians and the Greens, I'll bet the Greens were on your last ballot to!
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
It's not racism because it's not about the fact that they are racially different that creates the tension. It's the ~1,000,000 civilians the Japanese army murdered in Nanking and the other attrocities it committed during its occupation in China. It's like a man killing roughly 1/4 of the people on his block and then asking one of his surviving neighbors if his son wants to go out and play with the killer's son. What happened was really ugly, and those who witnessed it can't just forget it simply because the war is over.
dude... put the crack pipe down. We could have bought about 5 billon bbl of oil from Iraq for what its cost us in money alone.
After reading TFA, what happens is Europe and partners, really want to go ahead with this and will do it alone if necessary. (basicaly they gave japan until end of year to decide)
I agree completely on the urgence, because there is already scientific proof, that the concept would work. The technology only needs to scale up, and prove itself, before using it massively. (to get +- infinitum energy).
That is a "good thing"tm.
With all the problems from a oil-dependent economy (with some of its problems discussed all around this thread), moving to a clean, cheap, source of energy is the way to go.
Then we wouldnt even argue about CO2 or kioto treaty.
Of course it would be so fucking good, that many of the presures on the whole capitalistic, global economy, would be gone, and conspiration teories abound.
But that (getting a cheap, clean source of energy) really needs to happen if we are to make the world a better place, for us and latter generations.
EU executive comission only wants to go forward, fast, and if possible with japans approval and support:
"A central feature of a consensus would be a genuine partnership between the EU and Japan,"
So if europe rather go alone than wait for ever to do it, they have my aproval both as an european and as a citizen of the world. If japan wants to join it would be even better, and i'm sure there's enough research to be done by both.
But be quick,or be late.
I'm trying to get modded "Interesting Flamebait Informative and Insightful Redundant Troll" *-* Please Help *-*
"Just how much damage do you think these French Muslim schoolgirls are going to do?"
They can inspire folks in Iraq to take French journalists hostage. Christian Chesnot and Georges Malbrunot are still out there somewhere.
better weather :)
Seriously, it's about the same thing, both meet the requirements.
Knowing both cultures I can only say in spain it would be more fun doing it.
And why, in your opinion, is france so much better as a site?
As far as i remember, the only reason europe presented just 1 application, was so not having 2 different applications fighting against each other. It was far more important to get it than to be particularly france or spain. (if the US administration is reading this, that is called cooperation, of the international kind)
I'm trying to get modded "Interesting Flamebait Informative and Insightful Redundant Troll" *-* Please Help *-*
You have to dig back 80 years before you can find one thing you think was good.
Lets face it, you probably helped start the cold war, and the whole nuclear arms race. Hitler wasn't that bad either, I wish he'd finished killing off all the religious right, then maybe we wouldn't have so many problems in the middle east (or george bush for that matter).
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Put it on on Dome A. The Chinese can transport it there (they're going anyway, so they can lug the ITER with them, and if it's too heavy, they can conscript a million more peasants. Think modern day Pyramid construction). The Japs can assemble it and the Americans can pay for it (national debt, you say? what national debt?). The Europeans can administer it (they like to think they're good at administering things anyway), and the Russians can provide moral support, reassuring everyone that Dome A is warm compared to where they grew up in Siberia (and more importantly, they can supply the vodka). IANANS (nuke scientist), but perhaps the cold temperature will come in handy in cooling the torus or something like that. Perfect solution, now I just have to explain to GW what nuclar fusion is. Wish me luck.
Flying is easy, just throw yourself at the ground and miss. -Douglas Adams
And Hiroshima and Nagasaki are at the top of the atrocities humans commited to themselves.
I would argue that Isolating members extremest sects that opening boast of and practice torture, kidnap, and murder of innocent men women and children many of which are Muslims of Arabic desent as a pro-Islamic agenda.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
How about Corsica and the resistance to French colonialism there? The Corsican resistance periodically explodes bombs to try to drive the French out.
You forget a small detail : We have a democracy, here, and the Corsican nationalists are engaged in every election. At their VERY BEST they get about 20% votes. So what ? Should we flatly ignore the 80% ppl wanting to stay french in favor of those 20% ?
New Caledonia voted for an independance plan. It will vote again (I don't remember when) and if they want independance they'll get it.
French Gaullist Nationalism - It makes the French feel big and important *snip* That's why De Gaulle pulled out of active NATO involvement
No, he simply did not want us to go on war towards the Warsaw pact under US command, without having the faintest say. Can you perhaps see a similarity with much more recent events ?
- Don't go on thinking we have illusions about our "power", that's utterly wrong. But we do not accept anything for the sole reason it is proposed by a more powerful country
- As for muslims, especially Algerians, I must say they feel real bad here, as is proven by them fleeing this land everyday... oh wait...
- I was more than once in our former North-African colonies and as a french I was often especially welcomed. Damn, these people must be masochists... BTW The Algerian independance war was a disaster most french disaproved, and De Gaulle put an end to it.
- The current US governement thinks it can use brute force to get a better Irak. We'll see, it might as well provide us with a brand new Islamic republic...
One of those Europeans...
The majority of fossil fuel power plants are coal with some gas but hardly any oil. Gas is already running out so I hardly see how fusion reactors, even if you could build one tomorrow, would affect things.
Sorry but a fusion reactor is most definitely a nuclear reactor. It is, however, a different type of nuclear reactor. Current reactors split up large nuclei into smaller ones via a fission reactor. A fusion reactor binds two nuclei together to form a heavier one.
The reason both reactions give energy is because iron-56 is the most stable nucleus = one with the most binding energy per nucleon [proton or neutron]. Lighter nuclei can gain energy be binding together and heavier nuclei by splitting up.
I'd also take issue with the statement that it is the cleanest and safest source of energy. I grant you that it is far cleaner and safer than fission but the main attraction of fusion is the readily available supply of fuel: sea water (or at least the deuterium you can extract from it!). My guess would be that something like wave power will be far cleaner and safer but it is just not practical to line the entire world's coasts with power plants!
It's good that the US is trying to set a better example then.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9901/08/olympic.bribes.03/
Big international business is corrupt. Who would've guessed?
Japan ? .. That whole country has bad memories associated with anything Nuklear (for the whole world too).
Do you have any idea how many fisson reactors Japan operates?
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
Smacks of 9/11!
MacOS X, I've upped my standards, Up Yours...
More than any in the world? I hardly think so. Thre are quite a few countries with IMHO better freedoms than the USA. I suggest you stop waving your flag and look at the facts. All the Muslims I know in the USA are concerned for their own wellbeing. That's not a good sign.
What ever happened to the idea of "innocent until proven guilty"? Or does the concept only suit you when you see fit? Why are they not given fair and open trials, and permitted to seek legal counsel? If they are truly guilty then they would be convicted despite having their constitutionally-granted freedoms and protections. Why do you want an unfair trial? Isn't this the kind of thing you are fighting against? Isn't the "War on Terror" supposed to be about defending "freedom"?
There are many arguments that many of the people there are not terrorists at all, and there are strong allegations that they have been maltreated. What about Abu Ghraib? There is plenty of proof there.
It isn't Osama making this a war against Christians, but those in the Bush administration seem intent on doing so.
"thought of as a cult" by whom? There are still plenty of people who see Islam for what it should be, a peaceful religion. Don't project the misguidings of you and your bigoted friends upon what what the rest of the world may think. And if you don't know anything about Islam (which I strongly suspect), don't make sweeping assumptions about it.
I think you've been watching too much Faux News. The warlords still control most of Afghanistan, and much of Iraq is in disarray as well. It will probably be years before the situation dies down. The US has committed itself to a protracted war against an elusive enemy. In the meantime they have created a power vacuum which has become a haven for militants and fuels anti-US sentiment globally.
OLPC Australia
Yes, at least if you're talking about modern pebble bed reactors. All other designs have the possibility of a meltdown, albeit a very small possibility.
There are other carrier types around which can support large fighter aircraft. Whilst the US has the most, they are not the only ones.
Visceral Psyche Films
I'm not living in Europe, Japan or the USA.
Europe has the length of history that allows enough time for people to develop massive chips to carry round on your shoulder if you are so disposed to bitterness. Human nature being the way it is, a number of people do carry those chips, and don't forgive. It has come from differnt societies which have largely remained discrete and not homogenised into what you could call a "european".
America did come from migrants (native americans excepted, they migrated thousands of years ago), but more or less, there is a singular american culture (or so it appears to outsiders who have to suffer the homogenised american culture of the big M, coke, levis, microsoft).
Considering where they have come from, and excepting the fringes which have always been nutty (the serbs, as I recally were annoyed at some offence back in the 1300s or so for goodness sake!), Europe is going well when it comes to cooperation. If you chose to cite WACO / the LA riots / KKK antics as evidence that all was not rosy with the states, you'd be equally taking the fringe and extrapolating too far.
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World" 1 John 4:14
I think you pointed out the problem: there is no legislative, nor military or police-force on earth that could make the USA accountable. Which they know all to well, and therefor they act as the classical bully who knows no1 can touch him.
Maybe we should look for a stronger UN, where the veto-right is inhibited or at least severely restricted, and countries, even big ones, are held accountable for their actions.
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
Interestingly President Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe also got a very high share of the vote. So do the leaders of many one party states, so I don't think that's really much of an indicator of a functioning democracy.
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
Ever heard of international law? In the UN, it is no secret that it was an illegal war; Kofi Anan himself has said as much. It's not a problem of identifying it by the UN, it's a problem of getting accountability, as I said.
It's one thing to point to the problem, it's another one to be able do do something about it (as you yourself indicated).
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
When the original states first gained independance from the UK, they were each individual states with all the powers of sovereign states. They had their own currencies and militaries. They were loosely confederated under the "Articles of Confederation", but still were completely independent states with the power to wage war. But they saw that cooperation was more important than independance so they created the Constitution and Federal government. They agreed to share their sovereignty with the Federal government and so they gave up those rights. Why can't Europe do the same?
I love how the statement of basic facts is considered "flamebait" by some moderators. Guess the truth is inconvenient for some people. Mod away you little chickenshits, I've got Karma to burn and I've grown tired of Slashdot turning into DU/Indymedia/DailyKos with some Linux thrown in. Do your worst, I don't give a damn.
And they're paying me off too. It really is a good deal - come on over
How many beans make five, anyhow ?
"There is no such thing as international law when there is no way to enforce it."
;-)
That is clearly not true. You have laws, which are not enforced; the legal system in most western countries are rifed with it. You have laws that were enforced, but not any longer. And you have laws, which are basically uninforcable. You even have laws that that are made by agreement, not be force.
Even the US itself accepts the notion of international law, only they have the tendency to acknowledge it when it suits them, and disregard it when it doesn't. That doesn't mean that international law doesn't exist, it just means the US (and other countries that do the same) is hypocrite and arrogant.
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---