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Windows Media Center Edition vs. The World
sam_christ writes "An article in today's Investor's Business Daily (Google cache) and an article by TV industry pundit/predictions-huckster Philip Swann say the same thing: that Microsoft's Media Center Edition will be a big flop in 2005. Meanwhile, from what I can tell much more powerful alternatives to Microsoft's MCE bloatware are thriving: commercial products like Snapstream (see their 6-tuner Medusa PVR built for about $1200), Showshifter and open-source freeware like Mediaportal and MythTV. From what I've read about Microsoft MCE and all of its DRM and content restrictions, I have to agree with both of these articles."
Winner: The World.
The true monopoly here is the cable and satellite companies.
They can package their services and rent them out cheaper than any of us can buy the hardware.
A good MPEG 2 capture card costs $150. Hard drive/CPU/video output is at least $200.
Heck, I can get PVR service for $8 a month.
As much as I would rather do-it-myself... it's hard to beat a rock-stable $8/month service.
Windows XP Media Center Edition, a specific media center product, is a flop, and the articles you link to - which you say you agree with - talk generically about consumers not thinking about PCs in the living room or of computers as entertainment devices, but you think other commercial media center products - which are embodied by the idea of PCs in the living room or of computers as entertainment devices - are "thriving"? Especially when the articles - which you agree with - say that the problem with media centers is that, since they're a computer - a whole other computer, mind you - they're more complex, and normal[1] consumers will never even consider them as an entertainment center component?
Is there a disconnect here?
Actually, aside from whether or not it will be a commercial failure, Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 actually works famously (have you ever tried it?), MUCH better than previous iterations of the product, and it supports multiple tuners (i.e., >2), lets you archive your recordings to CD or DVD, can support transmitting its content to any other PC, media center extender, or Xbox, etc. - not to mention that for a NORMAL person, it's essentially an integral part of Windows, gets updated along with the OS, and represents a major product from the majority platform, etc.
And, by the way, I absolutely loathe Microsoft and its business practices over the years in general, but let's at least be realistic here: you can't "agree" with those articles, especially Swann's, and then say that other media centers are "thriving".
[1] "Normal" here means, like, actually a normal person. Not slashdot readers. Not engadget readers. And frankly, not even savvy computer users.
Snapstream? Been there, done that, and found that it's even worse bloatware than what our friends in Redmond put out. Maybe it's changed by now (it's been a year or two for me), but I doubt it - if you have a company that seems to value bloat (for whatever reason), it's unlikely that future versions will contain less of it.
quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
It's a fact. Most people are sheep and will go along with anything forced to them, but DRM acceptance has it's limits. I know a lot of people who asked me for help on making their DVD players zone-free, for instance.
If you restrict usage too much, people will seek for alternatives. For DRM done (arguably) right, check Apple and iTunes.
"Why?"
It seems that only pretty diehard MS people feel the need to spend more money and effort to get what everyone else can get with cheaper and easier to setup and use solutions.
Face it, Apple does this shit right. It would be TiVo-easy, probably easier, dead sexy to look at and would integrate with your iPod and desktop or laptop for on-demand streaming. And the best part is...It Would Just Work(tm).
Everyone said, "No one will buy an iPod! Are you crazy?" and now it's the geek-chic accessory of darn near everyone. Why wouldn't a PVR/DVR from Apple be the same? Once it's on enough episodes of Cribs or put into enough cars on Pimp My Ride everyone will want one.
IMO people who are tech savvy who would be more inclined towards a PC based system (as opposed to an appliance like TiVo) will be non-plussed by the infelxibility and restrictions in MPC.
The "sweet spot" that MS is targetting, that I'm not sure exists as a viable market is the consumer that wants to run their media on their single PC. Figure the odds that the person ready to control their entertainment with a PC has only one PC.
That said, I agree that the cost of prebuilt MCE systems is too high. I think what we need to see is scaled down systems in A/V cases that cost around 999$. I've priced out building my own systems and they can be built well below this price on Newegg, so I would think that a PC manufacturer should at least be able to come close.
In regard to the other packages out there...I had nothing but problems with BeyondTV and Sage, but it was mostly due to lack of support for my ATI AIW card. One thing I did notice in the process, though, was that MCE had much simpler and more intuitive interfaces than these other applications. Frankly, I think that an average user would not even consider messing with one of these programs when they could buy an MCE box all configured and ready to go.
MS has OEM partners to release its software to and can therefore push what the consumer sees in the big stores.
You have to look further or head online to see none MS software.
Joe public sees microsoft in the same way as Sony or even Heinz, something to look out for.
Also the google cache, how come we can have a cached version of this article, and yet when its NYT we have to do the signin thing, even though a no signin google entry point is almost always available?
liqbase
So if I want a MythTV box, I just have to build a computer out of parts that are compatible with Linux, select an appropriate Linux distribution, install everything, configure all my hardware, build some kernel modules for the esoteric hardware, load the modules, download MythTV, install, configure, upgrade, install extra crap, configure, upgrade, and then I'm finally ready to begin the final process of tweaking my system until MythTV 0.17 comes out.
If I want a Windows Media Center box, I go to the store and buy one.
Looks like MythTV is still a myth to me...V.
We'll get the FCC to require any PVCR to be required to use the one true OS, then where will you be? Eh?
Shhh, and we're putting in a special anti-terrorist filter that will let the OHS know just who is watching too many shows on the Discovery channel that teache how to blow things up.
No bloatware, no Microsoft vulnerabilities to patch and works just like my toaster oven.
"The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck is the day they make a vacuum cleaner."
Microsoft v1.0 products don't always have to make money. They are often aimed at gaining market share, leveraging related product areas where Microsoft is already dominant, learning what the customers really want, and generally harassing the competition as a prelude to crushing them with a version 2 or 3 product.
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
In other words, you haven't seen or used it yourself.
Neither has the author of TFA.
You all hate MSFT, and want to see them fail in the home. And this guy is your hero because he predicts that MS sucks. That's all fine and good.
But remember Sun Tsu's first and most important rule of war: Know your enemy.
The most rabid zealots show again and again that they have no fucking idea what MSFT products can do, or how they work.
That said, MCE's actually pretty well put together. It's far beyond MythTV, especially when it comes to hardware support.
And the DRM is on the CONTENT. You only use it if the CONTENT requires you use it. The DivX files you download off KaZaa will play the same in MCE as they do in linux.
But, MCE can play those movies you pay a few bucks to download off the 'net, will MythTV? My point being, OSS projects need to incorporate the same thing. The lack of legit DVD support has already crippled linux as an "entertainment" platform.
Look how well iTunes is working. Bandwidth is going up dramatically, theres a lot of fiber to the home happening. It wont be long before there's an (actually *working*, high-def) iTunes for movies - and OSS better not miss the boat.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
I agree. Cable companies have relatively cheap PVRs available for a monthly fee that gets tagged onto whatever service you already have, which actually makes it bearable.
However, Media Center PCs have lots of other uses too, such as music hubs and DVD management systems.
That said, I am in the market for a Media Center PC. I am putting of building/purchasing one because HDTV support (especially cable HDTV) is not that great (or even available for cable, if I remember correctly).
With single drives in the 400gb range for reasonable prices, I feel that it is time to start pushing HDTV PVRs.
So, what I am waiting for is a (relatively) cheap HDTV cable tuner card.
Anyone got any suggestions?
First of all, MythTV and Mediaportal are not competitors. Not yet. For them to be true competitors, they need to just work out of the box. Don't get me wrong, they're great products, but they're not true competitors in the average consumer market, just like Gentoo Linux is not a competitor with Windows XP.
And the other two products mentioned are not real competitors. If you hate "Microsoft bloatware", these are not the products for you. From the Snapstream Beyond TV System Requirements page:
From the Showshifter System Requirements page:
It doesn't get much more Microsoft-centric than that.
If Media Center Edition fails, it will be because of price and competition from the cable companies, not because of competing software. Users who buy media center PCs will stick with Windows Media CEnter Edition, because that's what it'll come with. Just like people stick with XP Home, because that's what came on their computers.
Consumers want something that just works. Hobbyists, enthusiasts, and power users may be interested in picking their own TV tuner card, and setting up MythTV, but they do not form a large percentage of the market. You have people now who have Tivos because they "just work". Tivo made something that looks like a VCR and has a remote, and that (combined with cable and satellite companies giving them away for free) more than anything is what will kill windows MCE.
From what I've read about Microsoft MCE and all of its DRM and content restrictions, I have to agree with both of these articles.
The average consumer (again, they're the ones who influence the market, not us) doesn't care about DRM, yet. They can play their CDs in the car or on their stereo - it doesn't matter if they can't rip them to MP3.
However, ironically, MCE may be the thing that wakes up Joe Consumer to the dangers of DRM. If this doesn't, the broadcast flag of HDTV might. Currently, if Joe Consumer misses a show, he can stick a tape in the VCR. And even tape the game, despite the NFL telling him not to. When he fires up his Media Center PC, and hits record, and gets a message saying "You are not allowed to do this", there's going to be a huge backlash. But we're not there yet.
There is no sig, there is only Zuul.
Approximately once every two weeks, I am nearly overcome by how cool MythTV looks, and I almost start putting a system together. Then I remember that I don't have cable, and I don't particularly want to spend MORE time watching TV than I already do. It would almost be worth it, though, to play with MythTV... Anyone want to donate $40/month or so?
Anyway, this is another example: MS does it, but Open Source does it better.
perl -e 'foreach(values %SIG){$_="IGNORE";}while(){}'
Since Windows is so insecure and bloated now that IE is intergrated, how much more useable would MCE be?
Biggest Flop of 2005: The Media Center PC
The product is supposed to bring the PC and TV together, but it's destined for the scrap heap of history. By Phillip Swann
Anyone else enjoying these advertising blocking mythtv boxes? I just finished mine a few days ago... What was that other successful program that blocks advertisements... oh wait, firefox!
he's fired.
Runnin' On Empty
Mostly because it requires pretty expensive hardware to implement WinMCE.
I still see WinMCE has a relatively niche product until the hardware that can fully implment it get really cheap over the next few years.
..Microsoft hasnt turned a profit on sales in over 4 years.
No, really, they havnt. The only way they make money is via "creative accounting."
Everything they release, except for Office and their hardware (excluding xboxes), is a failure, at least on a financial level.
Let's see:
.16 .0.1.0.3
MythTv is at version
MediaPortal is at version
Do you really want to run what is essentially an alpha product? I don't. These people also are happy with the fact that it sorta works, but not all the way. If you had a high end media room with a 100" screen and a projector, the image quality is not where it should be. It proably looks great on your 17" lcd or 4:3 ratio 27" television.
I'm not even sure what the snapstream product is. You can do everything it lists for the tv stuff with the software that comes with any pc tuner card.
MCE 2004 was a disaster. Horrible product, run away as fast as you can. MCE 2005 is loads better, though not perfect yet. Numerous companies offer a ready-to-go unit ala a DVD player. Just plug and go. The HP z545 and the Alienware DHS series are great machines that you can setup just fine to output to a HDTV projector and it looks great. You can also play Doom on them and surf the net. Nice integration.
Nobody YET offers a MCE with OTA or QAM HD support. You can add the card yourself (the ATI HDTV wonder is on the short list of cards supported by MCE) and you're good to go.
Until you can buy a pre-made box from a company with Myth loaded and ready to rock, I don't think you'll see myth in the living room. Microsoft got a computer in every home, now it wants one in every living room connected to the tv. If MCE 2005 is where they are going, they are headed in the right direction.
is that it works so well I had to buy more. I now own 3!
...Apple, in the form of Steve Jobs, has said numerous, numerous, numerous times, publicly and very specifically, that he doesn't believe in any kind of convergence, or any interactivity between TV and computers. As he has said numerous times: When you use a computer, you turn your mind on. When you watch TV, you turn your mind off. They two worlds are not compatible. Now, whether that's just gimmicky-speak, and whether it's ultimately true aside, Steve himself believes it. And on top of that, Steve, even as CEO of Pixar, is one of those "kill your television" types, so I don't see him getting behind a PVR/AV component type project.
HOWEVER, some evidence points in other directions:
AirPort Express: an AV component that lets you stream music from your computer to an analog or digital audio output on a wireless device that's part of your entertainment system
iPod Photo: an increasingly large hard drive in a product that has a dock that is, in part, intended to be part of an entertainment system that has audio and composite video and S-video output (think iTunes Movie Store: download movie, sync with iPod, drop in dock that's hooked up to your TV, and play)
New headless sub-$500 iMac: ThinkSecret is almost ALWAYS spot-on with these stories, so it's probably true. This could easily be an AV component IF it includes tuner capabilities, or some provision for adding them
Apple/Motorola cell phone, possibly co-branded or even Apple-branded: Yes, this really is happening, folks. If an Apple VP talks about it to Forbes, it was explicitly approved by Jobs. This proves Apple is willing to branch out into other markets.
With the "Digital Hub", Apple has addressed every possible kind of connectivity and device: scanners, printers, digital cameras, digital camcorders, phones, PDAs, the computer, movie editing, CD creation, music, DVD authoring, portable music players, etc. - everything, that is, EXCEPT TV. Yes, there are sticky issues here, of copyright, of rights management, etc., probably even worse than what was dealt with for the iTunes Music Store. Not to mention the problems of dealing with different TV reception standards in different countries, and the fact that you'd need to be able to DIRECTLY TUNE encrypted digital cable and satellite services, in all markets, to even begin to make this worthwhile for Apple. They're not going to have people hook up crap to random external equipment. So until there are universal standards (like CableCard) for allowing devices OTHER than set top boxes to tune the digital TV services, it just doesn't make sense.
But if Apple made a device in this space, it would be the iPod of PVRs, and would have the ease of use, integration, and fabulous attention to detail and usability we've all come to expect from Apple.
We can only hope...
I have always seen Windows as a necessary evil. If I want an easy to use restuarant touch screen system for reasonable money I have to use Windows. I still use a Mac for back of the house and my co-located webserver is RedHat, but for for touchscreen ordering, Windows is something I always tolerated. But, I just finished building a Windows MCE 2005 system and I love it. MSFT for once is getting something right. If I had one complaint it would be stability. Nothing worse than having to Ctrl-Alt-Del in the middle of the big game, kill off some offending creature, and restart MCE. But, overall, they have done a lot right. I imported my whole iTunes library off my home Mac and it attached album art to all my old mp3s. The ovrlays, guides, wizards, etc. all work with minimal input. The biggest problem facing MCE adoption is cost. Unless you are a DIY guy, OEM systems start at nearly $2gs. And, an HDTV with 720p support is almost a necessity for maximizing your MCE PC's potential. 480p is passable, but anything less, including 1080i, is nauseating for anything but basics. However, nothing beats playing some Halo on your HDTV with a wireless mouse and keyboard on your 7.1 surround home theatre system. It almost worth it for that alone.
It's a fact. Most people are sheep and will go along with anything forced to them, but DRM acceptance has it's limits. I know a lot of people who asked me for help on making their DVD players zone-free, for instance.
But they still bought the DVD players, didn't they? Most people won't take the time to either seek out a zone-free DVD player (which is what would really hurt their bottom line), or to mod the player themselves.
Don't get me wrong, I hate DRM, but for the most part people seem quite content to use products limited by it.
For DRM done (arguably) right, check Apple and iTunes.
Umm.... what?!?!? I don't buy from the iTunes music store. It would actually be convenient for me, since I do for the most part pay for my music. But the DRM is such a pain in the ass. You can only transfer the song to so many computers. You can only burn it in the same playlist X amount of times. This is incredibly stupid - you're paying almost full price for the files - and CDRs are a very fragile media. Yet if I scratch up too many copies of the CD, I can't reburn it without adding silence or rearanging the tracks?
Or to get around this, I have to burn and re-rip. Which is unacceptable to me as a paying customer.
Oh yeah, and you have to accept an EULA to get MUSIC. Can you imagine having to initial an EULA at a rercord store to make a purchase?
My final, non-DRM related beef with iTMS is that many albums are only partial. WTF? I don't want just the single. I'm not going to pay $10 for an incomplete album that I can only burn 3 times.
also, let's not forget the relative big success of the opensource software xbox media center http://www.xboxmediacenter.de/
me and my thinkpad, sittin' in a tree, c-o-d-i-n-g...
Although the article focuses on Microsoft vs. everyone else, a lot of the responses seem to be talking about media PCs vs. PVRs. So, I'll address that point.
/. have a spare system laying around (or the majority of components to make one)that is more than capable of being a repectable system to act as a PVR.
PCs and PVRs are just not comparable. Complete apples and oranges. You can't compare a Tivo or other PVR with a PC that's connected to a TV and the Internet. While it's nice that a PVR is meant specifically for its purpose and does it very well (even better if you know how to hack it), I can find many more advantages to having a PC connected to a TV instead.
First off, do you need more hard drive space? You buy a new secondary drive. You can't do that with PVRs unless you hack (in violation of contract if you rent the box) or buy/rent a newer one with a bigger hard drive.
If you don't want to watch TV, a wireless keyboard and mouse/trackball will allow you to surf on your TV. You can't do that with a PVR.
If the box is beefy enough, there is no reason why you can't use the PC as a gaming console. I'm sure that I'd have a lot more fun playing multiplayer "Ghost Recon" on my 55" widescreen TV than on my 21" monitor -- potential burn-in not withstanding.
There are other reasons, but I've made my point. Snd I'm sure that the vast majority of us on
Linux would have the same benefits, so I don't want to act as though only Windows can satisfy my requirements. But only us geeks would actually be comfortable using Linux for this purpose. The vast majority of people are unfortunately still brainwashed that Microsoft = Heaven, Bill Gates = God, and anything else != easy-to-use. So, properly positioned and marketed, XP MCE can be a highly effective alternative to PVRs to a huge amount of people.
That being said, I'm hearing a lot of good things about MythTV. I'm going to have to look into that. And I'll have a spare system shortly that's more than capable of handling the task. I'll pass on the PVR, thank you.
The Overrated mod is for reversing inappropriate, positive mods, not for voicing disagreement with a post.
I'll agree with the above post from earlier, I also use a hacked driver set with an unsupported TV card. This system rocks..
The only time I ever have a problem is one of my music video folders makes the system crash when it's building a preview image of the videos. One of them freaks the system out...Haven't pinned that down yet.
On the other hand, Media Portal is coming out really nice. It has wonderful potential....
I hope that the Xbox 2 comes loaded with MCE. That will truely bring the PC to the living room.
At least until she get dioxin slipped into her soup.
But, I am impressed, particularly since she is 44 years old.
I can see why your cable co's deal looks good now. Consider the disadvantages though:
1. Cable co can increase rate (look at contract)
2. Cable co might be paid off to rid people of PVR's.
3. $8/month will cost $350 in just under 2 years.
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
I'm just waiting for the first Media Center Worm article on /.
next up: worm brad corkscrew code
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Oh yeah... it runs linux.
Some cats swing, and others don't. Don't you be the kind that won't.
My biggest reason for going the Comcast DVR route over the MythTV box was my understanding, or lack thereof, that a remote exists that could control MythTV + my TV.
Reason 2 was that the Cable company's DVR solution is so much cheaper, as pointed out by many.
Reason 3 is HDTV - I guess this is no longer a problem as HDTV tuner cards have recently been released, though I am unsure as to whether *nix drivers exist for them.
That said, I *still* want a MythTV box because it would be a lot of fun to build, and the idea of a content server in my house driving multiple MythTV boxes sounds cool, though insanely expensive.
- Have you ever noticed that the more you learn about technology, the more stupid you sound trying to explain it?
I did the math and tried to come up with a good pc solution using myth tv. My requirements were a small case that would fit in my entertainment cabinet and semi old cheap hardware. The tv card winds up being the most expensive component $150 for a hardware mpeg encoder solution. To do it right, you are looking at about $400+ total system pricetag. That's using bottom basement pc components and top of the line pvr card. A replaytv unit costs $50 and a 12$/mo subscription or $250 lifetime. Which comes out cheaper then the mythtv unit. It provides many of the features you would see on a full blown media center type application since it networks with other replaytv units. You can run your pc as a replaytv unit and serve it shows, etc. All in all.. I found it to be the best deal; something that just works and the family can enjoy. There is fun factor to building the mytv unit..but if you are building it to be cost effective then you have to look beyond the alure of the free software.
You know, it's not clear that movies will follow the same track as music.
* Record labels make money by selling albums over a relatively long period of time.
* You only need one or two good singles to sell an album.
* They push singles through the commercial, but not-for-pay radio [does MTV actually show music videos anymore?]
* Actual concert performances profit the band, not the record label
* They have *always* had to deal with the possibility of taping-off-radio and taping-off-CD
* Movies are much more expensive to make than albums. And probably riskier creatively.
* Movie studios make a bunch of money on live performances in movie theatres. They will hesitate to dissipate that by releasing simultaneously to consumer digital. (Although there are huge advantages to digital transmission to theaters.)
* They make a second chunk of money selling hard copy DVDs *once the first run revenue* is tapped out.
* Finally, once the DVD stream is largely tapped out, they'll make a chunk of money selling the TV broadcast rights.
* For now, the primary medium is heavy, bulky, film prints on reels, which are hard to pirate, except through sucky camcorder taping.
The whole rhythm of release and commercial structure is different for these two industries. Probably, they'll make the transition to digital quite differently.
I do not have a positive view of the future of "media centers". DRM and content restrictions will make them no fun, and legal pressure will impede the market.
Eventually, these items will become proprietary appliances. Loser? Both Media Center and the World.
This suggests to me that the recording flag on, say, football games, will only stop owners of MCE from distributing their copy of the game. From what I've read on Slashdot, the flag is actually meant to stop all recording.
Are they just lying? I've been hoping that, as a poster above mentioned, the unfairness of DRM would enter the average American's mindset once he realizes that he won't be able to timeshift a lot of TV anymore. If the restriction is this more limited version, that won't happen. In fact, I might even start using MCE if all the DRM means is that I can't make torrents out of my recordings.
What do you guys think?
Please, for the love of God, no more car analogies.
oops, "gets". And the "first lady" term is misleading to Americans, as she is not married to the president-elect, but is a political leader in her own right.
Which makes her even hotter, as far as I'm concerned.
The average consumer does not care about DRM. It is only a very small percentage of people (mostly "geeks") who care about DRM. There for, do not play "taps" for Microsoft MCE simply because you and all your friends don't like it, you are not an average consumer. You are not Microsoft's target sale.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Hi How would this work in the UK with SKY ? I have a Sky Dish with one cable from the dish. if I wanted Six is this possible ? Can I split the cable. What about NTL (ie UK cable?) Trying to decide which one to install so I can do this. WoodyUK
I only have experience of MCE2005 so I cannot comment on the other products, but MCE05 works wonderfully well (and I am no big M$ fan). I took a PC we don't use much (P4 2.4GHz, 1Gb RAM, 120Gb hd, Nvidia FX5200), added a 802.11b PCI card, wireless Logitech keyboard/mouse, Hauppauge 150MCE, an MCE05 remote control, and I was in business. A small investment, and I can watch/record TV, watch/record DVDs, get online, play games, etc. The computer is hidden away in a cabinet next to the TV. In my book, MCE2005 is a very good product, and I don't think its quality is going to decide if it's a flop or not. Rather there needs to be more options in terms of buying a MCE PC (most are too expensive). I also think it's like with many other M$ products, they eventually get it right and often dominate the market (look at PocketPC).
But it doesn't work with all cable boxes, even all cable boxes with FireWire (and even though you can, by FCC rule, request a cable box from your provider with FireWire, no box from Charter Communications has *functioning* FireWire ports, as required by the FCC, and frankly, I'm not about to go out on some crusade to make it happen). This also doesn't apply to any satellite service. Not to mention that it depends upon an unsupported FireWire developer SDK from Apple, and has no integrated software for any useful interface, scheduling, etc.
On this topic, though, yes: had FireWire won in the living room, all of this interconnectivity could have been done via FireWire, and to hell with internal tuners. But alas, we've got things like component video, final output formats like DVI, and HDMI, and little to no FireWire. Oh well.
For anybody interested in making your own HTPC, I found Meedio Essentials http://www.meedio.com/ combined with Meedio TV to awesome software. Check it out- trust me, you'll like it.
Electrons are free; it is moving them that becomes expensive.
If you want a linux-based alternative to XP media center PCs that is far cheaper for both hardware and software, you need only look as far as CAC media and the work they are doing for the MediaReady 400 - there is a link to it off of the home page.
Check it out - you will see a lot of them next year starting at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas next week.
I've recently started thinking about building a PVR, but have a question about longevity. Supposedly the NTSC cut-off is 2006, and it's HTDV-only from then on. I have no doubt that the 2006 date will be extended. But at the same time, I'm sure that the FCC is chomping at the bit for the revenue that can be gained by auctioning off the old VHF and UHF spectrum. Also, I have no doubt that some folks at the top would like to GIVE away the old spectrum.
So maybe not 2006, but I'm sure UHF/VHF days are numbered. At the same time, I can't get decent broadcast in my area, so the one decent HDTV tuner just won't work for me.
So anyone's best guess on how long before an NTSC PVR is rendered obsolete by VHF/UHF->HDTV migration?
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Non-specialized hardware. It is widely known that specialized hardware blows the doors off a PC while often costing less. They've learned on their mistake with XBox, and XBox 2 will be a highly specialized platform. They may learn the same thing about Media centers, and turn it into a specialized platform also, simply to bring the prices down from their currently stratospheric level. Viable price point for Media Center is IMO $500-600.
On a tuesday if this article was posted as a comment it would be flooded as a troll, wednesdays its a front pager. Lets pick and run.
/. said alternatives are thriving. Let me put this in perspective for you. Media center PCs are usually stocked with other PCs.
Inferior earlier versions of the product might have tainted opinion. The current version, Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005, is the firm's third-generation offering.
Media Center is on its third generation over the course of 3 years. Showing progress is not weakness.
Consumers might decide it's easier to just buy a PVR from TiVo or their cable or satellite provider rather than buy a full-function PC. Plus, finding a place for the PC next to their TV can be a problem.
Headline fron
The alternatives, are not.
Yes the DRM is very damning, as of right now I am stuck copying these drm-ms files onto my laptop and playing them through this windows operating system, how dare they. Completly unacceptable, and I thank you soo much for bringing that up even though the main article mentions nothing about it.
This far right is like listening to Daily show at night and listening to Rush in the morning. You live and breathe to get your propiganda, even on things you know nothing about. Your taking news articles and posting a completly different spin on them in the hopes of readers beliving you and not reading the article.
In our "must out-do the wilson's" culture, it is not at all unreasonable to expect media center devices to drastically jump over the next 1-2 years.
A lot of the potential here revolves on how marketing packages the box. I'm willing to bet that it will not be heavily promoted as a "pc-based" solution so much as an "all-inclusive media center".
Jane soccer mom doesn't care about "pc based solutions", she wants push button operation with a function list at least twice as long as the neighbor two doors down.
It is way too expensive. When a TiVo like device is standard fair for people on the Dish and DirecTv for $1000 how many marketing genius do we need to solve that puzzle.
Joe Sixpack is not even going to know about it.
This is "Bob" in a new dress.
In the ever popular "Myth TV vs Windoes MCE" don't forget about Myth's other features (which aren't shared with windows MCE to my knowledge) such as a weather module, xame emulator support.
For me it came down to linux vs windows and the actual PVR software was secondary. With Linux I've got built in RAID and LVM, a rock solid stable kernel, and totally free software. I've got a 200 GB drive and if I want to add another one I can just slap one in and use LVM to join two drives together, or I can use RAID 5, or I can use multiple RAID 5 arrays joined via LVM etc.
Also Myth is client server so I can have a master machine that sits in the living room and a remote client that sits in the bed room. Or I can build a massive RAID storage array and have a massive Myth backend write to it via NFS and put dumb terminals all through the house. Heck I could even do some stuff with samba if I wanted to. You can't do that with Windows.
So for me it was Linux vs Windows and not Myth vs Microsoft MCE.
MythTV is great and is very popular within the linux community and other enlightened power users but it isn't thriving in the world at large.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Get him! He's threatening the hegemony!
I work with a nonprofit public access TV station and we are looking for video scheduling system to broadcast our local channel.
We have a very limited budget and if there is an open source solution or a software solution that allows us to use inexpensive PC hardware, that would be ideal.
We will be producing a content ourselves (probably via a macintosh as well as from video tape through traditional video editing means). So, I would imagine that we would rip the video all to hard disk, download the video files produced o the macintosh and then schedule it to be played back. We only have one channel to fill so the system does not need to be too fancy. When we are not playing content, we have a public services board that displays a little slide show of what is going on in the town. I can see some of these PVRs allow you to show photo slides through your TV - this idea would work well if we could automate when the slide would show and when and what videos would show.
The system now is not software based at all. We have a controlling box that does nothing more than turn on video tapes and switch to show that tape. We program the video switching device when to rewind, when to play and when to stop - so to my mind doing this all on a computer should not be that much different and I hope it would not cost too much while giving us more flexibility. Once it was software based, we could control it and automate it from there.
However, the question is where to start and if any of the open source PVR can do some of the job with little or no coding changes.
Also, if anyone has experience with building your own PVR in the Concord, MA area - please send us an email.
http://www.concordtv.org/
Going by this article, HP's de100c Digital Entertainment Center from a few years ago was linux based, and was the predacessor to the HP z545 Digital Entertainment Center now running MCE2005. http://www.windowsfordevices.com/news/NS7034640509 .html/
HP didn't find linux to be a viable option as a MCE device?
Hrmmmm ... interesting.
Seriously, no one wants to be tech support at home for their own cranky television set. This is precisely what would happen with WMCE.
I can't just picture being interrupted mid movie to have my television set request permission to download a new codec, which requires a reboot and of course either makes no difference at all to me or doesn't work at all.
If MCE (or a competitor) supported multiple-head TV setups, and worked with media execs to come up with innovative ways to use the extra displays in meaningful ways, they'd win.
But if MCE is perceived as being a TiVO, then simpler TiVO-style appliances will win.
MCE needs to demonstrate a clear advantage or difference. A multi-head setup, with a main TV and a smaller second TV showing synchronized infographics for a sporting event or news broadcast, would give excellent demo.
September 2011: Looking for Cocoa/iOS work in Boston area Cocoa Programmer Quincy, MA
iTuner.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Free markets are where customers take or leave what providers offer. Capitalism is simply one way of financing the providers. One of Chomsky's pet peeves is that people equate Capitalism with Free Markets. Capitalism per se does not address the issue of using Laws to restrict competition, but Chomsky argues (especially in _The Prosperous Few and the Restless Many_) that large corps strive to equate Capitalism with Free Markets in our minds and use legislation to erect artificial barriers to competitors. He calls this the "Regualations for Us, Free Markets for You" policy, where 'Us' are the Capitalists.
Contrary to popular belief, and the belief of many of his supporters, Chomsky has good things to say about free markets, although he thinks there are three main areas where they work poorly: Banking (due to moral hazard), Health Care (it cannot be stored and consumed later), and broadcast (airwaves are scarce). OTOH he also says in an extended interview (one of the Real Story series), "Over long periods of time, Free Markets do a better job of distributing wealth than any other known system". Not something many of his supporters know, and that Real Story book did not ask followup questions...
Convergence will happen, just the other way around. The DVD player will end up taking more and more functions. Think a DVD recorder with Tivo functionality, and then add an Ethernet port to be able to load films/music from a home network. Then you have a computer, just add functions at will, but it'll be a DVD for everybody.
Of course the problem is... it won't run Windows. Tut, tut, tut. I hope MS will make some effort to convince the families that the TCO of the DVD is much higher if it's not running Windows.
Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
What it will likely come with though, will be the Media Center Extender support built in. So you can play the content recorded on your Media Center 2005 PC through the XBox.
I have used them all and find Sage TV to be the only one that fits my needs.
With the Plextor external tuner/convertor, I can record realtime MP4/divx and archive these to DVD.
It has Smart / Season pass features like TIVO.
It has client for external network playback, even one for other machines to record with.
Was using Showshifter, but was frustrated with the guide setup and the recording setup eventually lost a/v synch. The recordings were not fully compatable (no FF, out of synch) with the phillips DVD player like Sage TV / Plextor is.
Sage also has user built modules, like commercial cutter.
Curious that it was left out of the list; it is far better than Showshifter.
And that, is that.
All the DIY'ers out there will disagree and point to how their solution is superior to a stock TiVo. And they would be right. They also get the satisfaction of having constructed their solution, which is unique to the DIY experience.
But having a TiVo is not a DIY solution. It's like having an iPod, or a Mac running OS X. It's elegant. It just frickin works (patent pending I'm sure). And it has a very loyal customer base.
The rest of this stuff might be great, I don't know. I'll never find out if TiVo never ticks me off. At this point, it's their game to lose. If TiVo went away, I don't even know what off the shelf solution can really rival them. Is ReplayTV still around? I don't know. TiVO is certainly dominating this niche.
Oh, and to all those who don't like the monthly service fee, just buy the $300 lifetime plan for the device. Yeah, that's a lot of money if you're struggling to put food on the table, but then one really should prioritize if that's your situation. Anyway, if you add that cost to the price of the device, you typically have a complete solution that just works out of the box for ~$500 (for the 80 hour or less class of TiVo) + tax.
There are few products I would be a fanboy for, but this is one of them (actually, the only one, I don't even have an iPod et al). If your goal is to just have a solution that just works, then this is the way to go.
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
From what I've read about Microsoft MCE and all of its DRM and content restrictions, I have to agree with both of these articles.
Wow...from what you've read? So you've never even tried it yourself?
What DRM and content restrictions? You can watch non-DRM content just as easily. It just also happens to support content that does use DRM.
Slashdot is no longer an accurate tech news site but is now an emotive groupthink propagator, no different than an organized religion or political group.
Media PCs have been flops every year they were attempted. Is there any room left in the heavenly closet of decomposing media PCs next to all the ones that never quite did good full-screen video, never quite had all the needed codecs, never quite had the right support for removable media, never quite reliable enough, never quite enough hard drive space, never quite new enough software, never quite the right plugs for the TV...you get the picture.
Playstation 2 + PVR + good audio amplifier is just about as close to a media center PC as anyone is going to get, right now. Plug it together and you have instant games, DVDs, and recording, and it works better than anything Microsoft has ever made.
And, in three years, the best media center PC will be next-gen movie player, next-gen game console, next-gen recording unit, and the same decent audio amplifier from three years prior.
-- "Makes Little Debbie look like a pile of puke!" - Moe Szyslak
What Linux distribution should one use to get a MythTv box up and running with a minimum of fuss? Redhat? Fedora? Mandrake? Debian?
I run Gentoo on my desktop and love it but I REALLY don't want to go through all the work of installing and configuring it on another box just to get MythTV up and running.
A single extra app, Media Center, with big widgets suitable for a tv and remote, and an optional exclusive lock so you need a password to alt-tab or close it. It's not very good.
A slightly updated theme
Terminal Services -- this is the reason I spent the extra 10 bucks to get XP MCE instead of XP Home.
MCE will not likely flop, since there's not much to actually flop. It's a way to differentiate product lines is all. They might even just make Media Center a free download (if it isn't already) at which point it'll merely be a minor configuration difference.
I am no longer wasting my time with slashdot
This comment shouldn't be modded flamebait, there is some truth to it. How interesting would it be to see a company like Microsoft try to implement a non-DRM solution? The ??AA's are used to being able to shove people/companies around, but who can shove Microsoft around?
Microsoft's Improved Media Center Still Falls Short
People are willing to accept change in how things work, when they believe in a reason for the change. Because people do not want more airplanes used as attacks, people grudgingly go along with the newer airline security guidelines even if some individual rules make no sense.
But when change is thrust upon people that comes with no discernible benefit to them, they do not take at. A very real example I have seen in person is multiple consoles being returned at stored because "they would not play DVD's when hooked up through a VCR". These people didn't know what Macrovision was, but they knew they didn't like how the product worked and so returned it - I do not work at a return counter or anything, these were random examples I saw three times in a row when waiting in line to return something myself.
Now think forward to the effects of things like the broadcasting flag. What happens when Grandpa can no longer record a game they want to watch on PPV? Chaos I say. A customer service nightmare for whatever company is so foolish as to make use of the flag. And if enough broadcasts do make use of the flag, an eventual shift in what people watch to media that does let them control the pace and time and place they choose to watch things.
It is not too hard to see people getting fed up with TV and broadcasters. What follows naturally? Well, right now Tivo's are embedded in cable and satellite boxes. Imagine what happens when instead Tivo starts bundling TV services!!! They are already starting down that path to push movies to consumers directly along with Netflix - and when they take over the most profitable part of broadcasting (PPV) can the other parts be far behind?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
First I want to say that I am not a fan of MS. My main living room devices for the last three years are a hacked Tivo and a PC with various "test" builds of MythTv.
Last month my spouse got tired of me futzing around with the MythTv box and purchased a MCE 2005 PC for the living room. At first I thought I would hate it because of the noted DRM, but after setting it up and using it for a while I have to say that I am impressed. The machine runs smoothly and I now finally have a slick/easy way to browse my MP3 and DVD backups off of my main file server. I am really impressed with how well the box plays DVD backups. After testing about thirty DVD backups I have not found anything that has DVD menus that choke the box (wish I could say the same for my homebrew solutions). The DRM has absolutely no control over my use of the box. I only give the MCE box read only access to the content on my file server, which means that my media library will continue to be safe from being crippled with DRM. I continue to use my favorite apps to rip/move content (audio/video/tivo/dvd) to my collection on my main file server.
The MCR 2005 box is not perfect. I will still continue hack away with Linux and MythTv, but now there is a PC in the living room that my whole family can use to enjoy my media library.
Also, writing add-ins is very easy, there is a good sized developer community and the SDK is a free download.
OS X, Linux, Tivo, Amiga, my fascination with cult-like technologies would intrigue any psychiatrist.
I only got MCE "by accident" on my new laptop, and I have to say that in terms of out-of-the-box experience, ease of use, integration of features, etc., it beats any other PVR software I've used in the past by a long way.
:)
In terms of DRM, burning stuff to DVD, etc., it's pretty much idiot proof -- pick something you've recorded, select "Make CD/DVD", add any other stuff you want to put on the disk, wait about 20 minutes, and you're done. Stick it in any DVD player and it works perfectly, with a nice menu to select what file you want to watch, etc. (The only shortcoming is that it's not too good at working out what will fit; sometimes it'll warn that you've put too much stuff on there, and other times it'll start muxing and then fail with an unhelpful error message.)
Pausing/rewinding live TV is also a breeze; whenever you switch channels it automatically starts buffering video. Tapping rewind takes you back about 10 seconds, holding it takes you to the start of the current show; fast forward skips about 25 seconds, just the right amount of time to avoid commercials -- I've taken to waiting about 10 minutes after something starts, zipping back to the beginning, and skipping all the commercials. Advertisers may hate it, but screw 'em!
In addition to the PVR/TV stuff the picture slideshow is nice, and the touchup tools (red-eye removal, automatic cropping, etc.) are impressive. Sure, it's no Photoshop, but for the average user it's more than adequate, and all works through the "10-ft interface". Watching videos (it has limited support for DivX/XviD, but could do with more up-to-date codecs) is a breeze, and the MP3/WMA player is also pretty sweet (although if you have a lot of MP3s navigation can be a bit irritating, and although it uses WMP10 to do the actual playing, not all visualisations work properly.)
There are also a few nifty added extras available -- an RSS reader, alarm clock, etc. -- and I suspect a lot of third-party vendors are going to step in and fill in the gaps.
I was fully prepared to hate it, but I now very rarely use my actual TV for viewing. If it had a better grasp of anamorphic 16:9 broadcasts (it assumes everything is 4:3 -- my laptop has a 16:10 screen and the picture can be stretched to compensate, but burning DVDs from 16:9 video can result in much strangeness), and was aware of digital terrestrial TV here in the UK (I have a choice of regular TV, analogue or digital cable, or satellite, none of which have quite the right lineup of channels for the TV guide, and it's completely oblivious to the "interactive" features of my set-top box) it would be perfect, but even with those little niggles it's one of the best things to come out of Redmond in many a long year...
This sentence no verb.
First, I want to say that I have no business or personal association with Frey Technologies; I just use their product.
Personally, I use SageTV (http://www.sage.tv) at home. I have a RAID-5 w/ 500GB as my server and two clients w/ one attached to an HDTV. Generally, I've been extremely pleased with Sage. The developers reward users who take initiative to develop for the product by providing an API (under NDA) to allow them to further extend the application.
Unlike Windows MCE, most PVRs, include SageTV, record in an unencrypted MPEG2 format which may be easily archived in numerous fashions at the choosing of the user. Also, SageTV does not put any limitations upon which machines on a network are authorized to playback particular recordings.
My only complaint is that I've gone through 2 PVR-250MCE cards. The symptoms that I experience is that recordings stutter or skip frames. I've double-checked and the problem is definitely within the recording and not playbakc. Perhaps the cards suffer from a heat problem?
SageTV is awesome. Hands down. Go try it; they have a 14 day free demo available. If you already have a capture card, give it a go.
How do we know the market for any of these products is "thriving"? Someone says the Microsoft product wlll have a bad year and, meanwhile, asserts they competition is "thriving". No numbers, no evidence, so why should I believe it?
Personally, I don't think a long-term market exists for any of these products. MS keeps trying, and failing, to shoehorn itself into show business. Other folks dutifully bring out there own competitive knock-offs, and then go broke and disappear.
If you want an example of a "media" product done right, look at Apple and the iPod. No grandiose attempt to replace a bunch of expensive appliances people already own, just a small gizmo that does one thing well.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Wonderful program, handles multiple tuners, cable boxes, universal remotes, plays well with Multiple Hauppage PVR-250s. Easy to use. And it records plain vanilla mpeg2s which rip straight to DVDs. Built a micro-ATX box with two PVR-250s a GeForce 5200 and a UIRT-USB for remote control / cable box interfacing. Works perfectly.
The setup is rock-solid, and I can burn it all to a DVD if I wish.
I have Snapstream. It works well, seldom crashes or forgets to record. The major benefit is that I can't even tell it's recording, leaving the PC 100% usable (I have a Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-250).
The VP of business development was the guy who setup our development test machine here for XP MCE2005, which should tell you about the skill-level of user this software is focusing on. And he had no complaints, said it was a pleasure to setup.
When this will take off is when they have good quality commerical boxes for under $500. I expect to see that price-range available by Christmas from the cheap manufactures of the likes of eMachines, who recently announced they will be producing MediaCenters.
Once Dell has a $399 MediaCenter PC that you can use to rent movies online for cheaper than Blockbuster (who is part owner of CinemaNow so they aren't going to fight it) this thing is really going to take off.
Seriously, give this thing a try. I'm not Microsoft fan, but this is a good product, with a well thought out business relationship with content vendors.
Which is far, far better and more profitable than not stumbling onto trends at all.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
they're going to use it with their online environment, and unless they decide to turn off the security options with IE (it comes installed in secure mode that makes you manually accept every url you want to navigate to) and start surfing porn outside of their MediaCenter sandboxes, they won't have to reinstall.
All of the alternatives you've listed on Slashdot crash. Microsoft's software doesn't.
Winner: Microsoft.
Slashdot Jedis take note: Sometimes you have to give in to reality, and reality clearly states that Microsoft has won.
Again.
I've been developing for it even and we haven't got the thing to crash. Can't say that about my MythTV linux box at home, had to reboot that about once every week or so.
And this is while I'm intentionally abusing the MediaCenter app, ripping DVDs in the background, and running multiple Windows Media Encoder apps at the same time.
Now, I didn't say the system was running fast, but it doesn't crash.
You're not supposed to be able to buy your own copy of Media Center Edition. Most venders will let you if you buy hardware along with your copy, however. The idea is they only want quality machines out running their systems. I think they should manufacture these things themselves like Apple personally, but this is a nice middle ground that they're going for at the moment.
I believe the new eMachine systems will be around $500 by the end of the year. I've seen home-built systems on ebay that looked perfectly viable for under $400.
I'm upgrading my 400 celeron box to a 3000+ sempron with 512mb ram for under $200 to be my media center.
Microsoft's Media Center Edition was a big flop that already died before the planned release date. Now they have a much bigger problem: more and more people are using Linux so there are no reasons left why someone would still want to use their Windows OS. Thank God I sold my MSFT stocks - optimal timing for some put options...
But what happens when Grandpa has to be out on a trip, or otherwise away from the home? Then recording is not an option, and after the first few failures to record the games he'll just stop watching.
In the meantime, thousands of grandpas and other people like them have created a customer service nightmare for the company. And there's a good chance that Grandpa may just decide to get some other cable or service provider (even if he doesn't know that wont help).
Look at how many people switch cell phone service when the option was finally there for number portability - even when the other company was not nessecarily better!! It's a lot easier to change TV providers.
What you utterly underestimate is the ability and desire of people to punish companies they feel have treated them badly. I have seen it in person, done it myself. You can ignore human nature or profit from it - many companies have chosen to ignore it and we can all watch the implosion.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
No idea where the parent poster got the impression that MCE doesn't let you archive in a format everything can read.
MCE 2005 includes Sonic drivers in the Multimedia Feature Pack CD that allow you to trivially burn regular DVD-Video directly from the Media Center interface (i.e. you can perform the entire operation just using the Media Center Remote Control, no keyboard or mouse actions needed). It'll even transcode and compress in order to squeeze excess content onto a single-layer DVD.
The only files that the system will refuse to burn are those where the copy protect flag has been set, which currently is limited to a few shows on HBO and Cinemax. And in that case, there are actually a couple of easy hacks that can be installed to bypass the protection.
I suspect the parent may have used an improperly installed MCE 2005 that lacked the proper Sonic Encoders. Without the extra encoders from the MFP, you can only burn data DVDs from the standard Media Center interface.
If your MCE 2005 install is lacking the proper drivers and you can't find (or were never given) your MFP CD, google "sonicencoders.msi" for the critical file you need.
Now that said, as much as I've been surprised (not being a big Microsoft fan) by how well my MCE 2005 box turned out, I eventually converted it to BeyondTV (from snapstream), which I consider superior in several subtle but important ways.
I've also built MythTV boxes for friends, but sadly it isn't quite ripe yet... the lack of stability and the difficulty of install (compared to the reasonably inexpensive alternatives like BeyondTV) are such that I don't recommend it yet. Give it a few more months, maybe a year, and it will really start to gel, I suspect.
Anyone aware that Comcast is using this?
I don't see how Microsoft could do anything differently. They support playback of DRM files and non-DRM files. They support creation of DRM files and non-DRM files. It is up to the content producer how or if DRM is used. Sure, microsoft could have refused to create a DRM system to begin with, but it can't force other companies to release non-DRM content.
I'm a Freevo user and fan (freevo.sf.net) and I agree. I've briefly used Windows Media Center and was impressed by the speed, ease of use, and the quality of the product.
While I'd never buy this product (out of ideological and financial reasons), I have to agree much of the criticism is unfairly harsh.
The only problem I see with this product is the price, and perhaps the fact that the average joe isn't ready to purchase a complete PC to attach to the TV, or watch TV primarily on his PC.
The only thing that needs to change is awareness (which might very well kill it faster). Every single non-tech person freaks out over the possibility of having access to most of the good television shows out there. In fact, I never even bothered to consider getting cable at college this year since I can just download all the tv I want to watch usually a day or two after it comes out, which isn't that big of a deal. Plus, I can then archive the shows on CD if I so desire which is apparently a feature a lot of people want (look at how many people buy entire seasons of TV shows on DVD).
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
...the original DIVX (vcr) format was so popular.
My dad just bought a dell for $350 (and free shipping) with no monitor that would be plenty powerful for a DVR if you add a hardware encoding capture card. If you think you cant get a small dell in a decent looking black case for under 500, you need to look at an ad in the newspaper once in a while, cause this was no secret mega deal, just one of thousands of different promotions dell runs every day.
Moderation Totals: Flamebait=2, Troll=1, Redundant=1, Insightful=6, Overrated=1, Underrated=1, Total=12. (not mine)
Also, you forget that "geeks" who care about DRM are the people who the less technically talented will go to for reccomendations on what consumer electronics to buy. Thus, 1 geek may influence the purchasing decisions of 5 or 10 different people considering something like Microsoft MCE; those people are Microsoft's target buyers and their choice to go with an MCE competitor like Tivo hurts MS's bottom line. When you consider that they're the ones everyone comes to for advice, geeks may have more power over purchasing habits than you thought.
That's it. I'm no longer part of Team Sanity.
I've used both MCE 2005, and Snapstream's BeyondTV product. And for my needs, Snapstream ends up being a heck of a lot better. It's not perfect, and the interface leaves a bit to be desired when compared to MCE. (MCE's interface looks really good, and is really idiot-prrof and probably a bit better suited for Joe Consumer).
But Snapstream has a lot more features.. (being able to fiddle with the default quality features, plus schedule recompression, and batch jobs than can burn to CD/DVD and the ability to make chapters that will skip commercials.) I look forward to the product evolving a bit more in the future. And hopefully they can snazz up the interface a bit.
http://thepoliticalgeek.com/blog/ Politics for Geeks.
PCs with built in TV are a big hit in Japan.
A search will show 334 models
http://www.kakaku.com/prdsearch/desktop.asp
(you need japanese fonts, then select TV box and then click on the button.
However only 9 of these come with M$ Media Center.
or is he just spouting off what he read? MCE records files in a special MPEG2 format, but even MS gives you a converter to make them playable on a non-MCE Windows box.