Jamie Zawinski Switches to Mac OS X

iskander writes "After a disappointing experience with sound, Jamie Zawinski has finally given up on desktop Linux and switched to Mac OS X. The future of apps like xscreensaver and Gronk is now ``highly ambiguous''. He has already ditched a free/open platform before, but he seems a lot angrier this time. Indeed, twisted by the Dark Side of the Source, young Zawinski has become."

Comments

Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[Anonymous Coward]

and why should i care what OS he is running ?

maybe i should submit a story about what OS my neighbour runs, or perhaps his brother and wife

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[prodangle]

http://www.jwz.org/hacks/

"Back before you had heard of Netscape, I was responsible for the Unix versions of Netscape Navigator through release 1.1."

"Before Netscape, I was primarily to blame for Lucid Emacs"

"...I was one of the folks who created and ran the Mozilla Organization during the first year of its life"

"But now I've taken my leave of that whole sick, navel-gazing mess we called the software industry. Now I'm in a more honest line of work: now I sell beer."

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[PsychicX]

According to the link on his name, he's a contributor to XEmacs and Moz.

An XEmacs contributor switches to a more useful system. I love the irony.

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[Anonymous Coward]

I like how he is(was) a developer of a application that used sound on linux (http://www.jwz.org/gronk/) and yet was so stupid as to a) buy a soundcard that wasn't fully supported and b) use a distro that doesn't set it up automagically.

I mean, come on.

And yes, linux is harder than having dedicated hardware and OS intergration - it's also cheaper. But more importantly, that's the price of freedom.

I am sick to the guts of all these whinging losers who expect linux to be "finished now". Go check out apple's and Microsofts budget next to that of redhats, go check out how many hardware driver writers are opening their source up.... go check it out!

For me, this is a battle against corporate control of the internet, a battle for the future of ideas and democracy (yes DRM is that dangerous, just look at what they do with the DMCA). So sooooorry if you can't have your games and your music this instant because you are such a petulant little troll that you can't be bothered putting some effort into the fight.

MORAL OF THE STORY FOR THE REST OF US:

ALWAYS, always, always, check your hardware for linux compatibility, even if you are running windows (just so you have the option to swap in the future). This means sometimes you have to avoid the very bleeding edge, but it's more about investing a few google searches into hardware before you buy.

In fact, here is the plan to swapping to linux that stops 90% of the whinging (the other 10% whinge no matter what).

1. On windows when you buy new hardware make sure it is linux compatible, start today.

2. Use firefox and open office and cygwin and other OSS on your windows install.

3. Use a ubuntu, knoppix or other live CD to check things out, get an account to Putty into from your windows box.

4. Install mandrake, fedora or maybe ubuntu with a second harddrive (or a careful partition) and dual boot. I say those because they have the best hardware detection, noob support and compatibility with games/random software.

Once you have a polished distro on your box that you *slowly* transitioned to which has 100% hardware support you should be FINE and all your possible whinging from jumping in with an ATI graphics card, an unsupported drive controller, a no-name brand proprietary USB TV tuner and a soundcard you bought without thinking should be not present.

I hope Zawinski loves his new hardware choice of a PPC Apple and the future of it's compatibility in a few years time.

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[shish]

Does anyone want a list of OS I'm running?

Are you the core (sole?) developer of a base app included in every desktop distro?

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Slashdot used to be a OS advocacy site for Linux. Now, Slashdot is an OS advocacy site for Apple. Of course you should care.

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[matt me]

Zawikski's just this guy, you know?

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[isny]

From free software to selling beer? What happened to the 'free beer' step?

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[ZorinLynx]

Just because this guy wrote UNIX N1.1 doesn't make him some sort of God or anything. He seems to complain more than he makes an effort to help fix the problem, and I think we should just disregard his ranting and raving.

Yes, there's still issues with Linux audio. But whining and running off to another OS isn't going to fix them.

He complained endlessly about Mozilla too. It seems he does nothing but whine.

-Z

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[MPHellwig]

"But whining and running off to another OS isn't going to fix them."

Well the problem is fixed for him isn't?

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe someday it will grow up and stop being an advocacy site at all.

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[Have Blue]

And if he releases the formula he uses under the GPL, is that free as in speech or beer?

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[Electrum]

If he has indeed been messing around with Linux for long enough to be prominent in development/maintenance of xscreensaver (I haven't checked this) or XEmacs

jwz wrote xscreensaver, Lucid Emacs, Netscape Mail and News 2.0 to 3.0 and the original UNIX versions of Netscape Navigator.

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[biendamon]

Actually, Slashdot is a news site. Specifically, news for nerds and stuff that matters.

Frankly, I can understand his beef with sound on Linux. There's no mucking about with "sound servers" on other mainstream operating systems. ALSA is a good attempt to fix that problem, but it's not quite there yet.

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[Kesh]

Guess I'll play the "Apple apologist" for this thread. ;)

- The dock. What a hideous piece of crap this is. My trash can is on the dock. So are my running applications. So are my non-running applications. But not all of my non-running applications. To get to those, I have to go into the applications folder, which has a nice alias on the desktop that Apple didn't create. Those useful programs that you only use once in a blue moon? Go dig for them... go dig.

Er. Okay. How is this different from any other OS? And you don't have to dig. Drag the Applications folder to your Dock. Right-click (or control-click, or just hold the mouse button down) on that folder, and you'll get a menu that pops up, listing its contents. Bam.

Also, any open Finder window should have the Applications folder listed on the left-hand side. Click on it, and scroll through the window.

- Driver support. I have a cheapo webcam that came with an Earthlink subscription years ago. I plug it into linux and it works. I plug it into my Mac and it does nothing. No drivers available.

So, cheapo webcam doesn't have drivers. There are Linux drivers. Maybe... I dunno... see if the code is available, and ask someone to port the drivers to OS X? I doubt the Linux drivers came with the cam in the first place. Someone else had to write them, right?

- Quicktime. It plays 8 seconds of video and stops. Every time. MPlayer for OSX handles the same files fine.

Let me guess: DivX files, right? Yeah. No one has written decent Quicktime codecs for DivX/XviD/3viX yet. This is Apple's fault?

- Sleep. It does it whether or not I want it to. Downloading a big file, it'll go to sleep. How the hell does one stop that? Other than that, sleep works great. Or not.

Apple Menu -> System Preferences -> Energy Saver. Configure to your heart's desire.

- Virtual Desktops. Man, I never thought I'd miss them so much. And even the very good replacement I found, Desktop Manger, has flaws. If I leave the adium buddy list open on one desktop, go to another desktop, and mouse over the where the buddy list is on the non-visible desktop, I see tool tips. Among other bugs, that's the most annoying.

I can see how those could be useful, yes. In fact, there are a few different virtual desktop managers available for OS X. A quick Google search does wonders, but this appears to be the one most recently updated.

- Java apps. Either swallow the menubar for the active window or don't. Don't do it in some cases and not in others. Get your act together. I know I can code to specifically do that, but I shouldn't have to. Write once, run anywhere and all that.

Would be nice. However, from what I can tell, it's a problem with Swing. Could be wrong on that, but it seems that some Swing apps do it right, some don't, and that's where the discrepancy comes from.

Overall, most of your complaints could have been solved simply by asking a Mac forum (most of us are quite friendly ;) ), or some Google searches. The rest are just waiting on developers to actually develop solutions for stuff that's already third-party.

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[Ravnen]

the main reason to use Linux isn't the cost, it's the legal freedom to do pretty much whatever you want with it

This is true for only a very small number of people. For most people, software licensing ideologies mean nothing, and what matters is how well the system does the tasks they want it to do.

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[SharpFang]

And is likely the one largely responsible for the complete shit that was Netscape, the crap that crashed so much that I switched to Internet Explorer because "it just worked"?

No, he wasn't responsible for 4.0. And you won't convince me you switched from Netscape 3 Gold to MSIE 3.0 because it "just worked". It didn't.

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[BigBuckHunter]

Just because this guy wrote UNIX N1.1 doesn't make him some sort of God or anything

But it does qualify him for demi-god status. When you get to hang with the gods, and have a small cult following of strangely deticated people.... Maybe a shrine or two...

BBH

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[IllForgetMyNickSoonA]

I call BS.

1. If it is true that you have never ever had a single problem with an MS product, why you'd be hating it?

2. Nobody has ever had to recompile the kernel in order to change the screen resolution in X.

3. Wanna see XP BSOD? Try putting the following code on a web page:

<HTML>
<BODY>
<IMG SRC="./sweetydead.jpg" width="9999999" height="9999999">
</BODY>
</HTML>

and take a look at it with IE. Of course, the picture has to be there. It can take up to 2-3 minutes until BSOD and reboot. Successfully tested on three different "XP Professional" computers with 512M RAM. Check this link for details.

While I don't think that the parent's experience is a typical one for the Windows world, your claims are even less convincing.

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[rho]

I wouldn't bet on it. jwz used to like to use SGI for the same reason--you pays your money, your shit just works. Fiddling with your desktop has some value, but not much.

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[Crazy Eight]

He was the guy who slandered the mozilla foundation and called them names and then quit in a hissy fit.

That's a gross misinterpretation. He created mozilla.org quite literally when he registered the domain. Read the commentary that's been on his site for ages (You'll find a direct link in the article summary). He seems justifiably proud of initiating an open source browser and the ancillary tools created to develop it. The grandparent was referring to xscreensaver anyway.

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[dr.badass]

Yes, there's still issues with Linux audio. But whining and running off to another OS isn't going to fix them.

That's because "issues with Linux audio" is the problem of Linux audio developers, not users. His problem was getting sound to work, and switching to Mac OS X solved that.

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[mixmasta]

Hi,

The flaw in your argument is that you are comparing a 5 year-old OS to one built 18 hours ago. Of course it will have better hw support on install.

You're just gonna have to hunt down the windows drivers, it aint that hard. Copy them to the hard drive or cd and be done with it.

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[ElGuapoGolf]

Apple Menu -> System Preferences -> Energy Saver. Configure to your heart's desire.

Fantastic. However, you didn't read all that well. I know it works, I know it works well. But how can I tell it to not have my computer go to sleep if I'm not actually using it but it is doing processing in the background. Such as, maybe, downloading files.

I can see how those could be useful, yes. In fact, there are a few different virtual desktop managers available for OS X. A quick Google search does wonders, but this appears to be the one most recently updated.

Did you read my comments about how they don't work all that well, or did you just blindly point me at the solution I already use, which I mentioned in my original comment?

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[pboulang]

Fantastic. However, you didn't read all that well. I know it works, I know it works well. But how can I tell it to not have my computer go to sleep if I'm not actually using it but it is doing processing in the background. Such as, maybe, downloading files.

yeah, please don't miss the point that there is a *never* go to sleep option. It takes all of five seconds to get to and setup for when you have background processing going on? Turn off monitor, sleep disks if possible, but don't sleep is a perfectly valid option and you are picking a fight, not being reasonable.

Regarding virtual desktops, that is one of the things you need to learn/unlearn when moving to OS X. A) you don't make applications full screen. That drove me nuts initially, but I finally got used to it. Correllary to that is B) You have different ways of switching between apps be it cmd-tab, expose, or clicking on the dock. I commonly run 15-20 applications concurrently on the same screen because I no longer have the "different desktop, different type of application" mindset. Of course, you would like to work the same way you used to and the current evolution of desktop switching isn't to your standards.. and you have to run mplayer instead of quicktime to run divx files (big whoop, dude, really.. you have a perfectly workable solution..give off on that one)

What were you looking for when you tried OS X? The same thing you saw in Linux? That's a normal mistake that people make.. OS X is more like windows in that it limits you on how far you can customize the interface, but I've found that with some extra like Quicksilver (free) you get a level of efficiency that isn't as easily found on other platforms.

Side note on quicksilver: I use it to launch everything, I use it to search my address book.. it is fast, and it blends in so well with the OS X look and feel that I forget that it isn't native. I had initially thought that Spotlight in Tiger would try and replace it, but no chance.

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[SnowZero]

Overall, most of your complaints could have been solved simply by asking a Mac forum (most of us are quite friendly ;) ), or some Google searches.

I think that's the GP's whole point. It doesn't "just work", and this isn't really any different than with a Linux distribution. In either case you have to solve problems with google, forums, or mailing lists.

Personally I think a lot of the problem is that people choose an unsuitable distribution. If you don't want to mess with things, use Ubuntu or Mandrake. Don't go using Debian and complain you have to use a CLI, or use Gentoo and complain that an upgrade broke something.

Of course, that requires some who isn't too lazy to use google.

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[McPierce]

jwz wrote xscreensaver, Lucid Emacs, Netscape Mail and News 2.0 to 3.0 and the original UNIX versions of Netscape Navigator.

So? What's he done lately? And, at any rate, the point is are we supposed to be lemmings who follow the preferences of individual programmers or follow what we each individually prefer and find makes us the most productive? If one guy, no matter who, decides to go to another OS should we all do the same? And, anyway, if he can't get sound and video to work on Linux, he's not all he's cracked up to be. I'm just a lowly web and mobile programmer of no great fame, and even I got both sound and great video working with little or no major effort. If he can't do it, maybe he's not all that great...

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[Paradox]

Yes, there's still issues with Linux audio. But whining and running off to another OS isn't going to fix them.

Linux Foul! No mentioning Linux Sound. -5 to your advocacy score. Consume!

Dude, ALSA has been "not quite there yet" since like 2001. I left to go to the mac scene myself because I was sick of sound and video issues.This sound thing? It bugs everyone. Everyone everywhere.

At what point do we go, "Gee, this linux sound problem is becoming a major headache?" And why is everyone's response, "Well, then help out!" What kind of lame response is that?

Given the complexity of sound drivers, that's equivalent to, "If you don't like it, leave." And that's what people are doing, you know. Go to a technical conference like OSCON, Rubyconf, Codecon, or heck, even Linuxworld. You see a heck of a lot of luminescent Apples.

Forgive me, but I missed the clause in the Linux social contract where I'm responsible for developing core parts of the desktop system. There are lots of people who could be writing interesting application software, but are hampered by the numerous technical foibles of Linux--or even worse, working on said foibles to the exclusion of good applications.

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[Electrum]

And, anyway, if he can't get sound and video to work on Linux, he's not all he's cracked up to be.

You are missing the point. He could make it work. But it's not worth his time to fiddle around and mess with it. It is far easier and more productive to simply buy a Mac and have a fully functional UNIX machine. The fact that it doesn't "just work" means that Linux isn't a viable desktop replacement for the ordinary computer user.

Re:Who the hell is Jamie Zawinski

[rho]

Well, he'd probably still be with SGI, except they silently imploded 4-5 years ago, which is why he went to Linux. Also, he was a big proponent of the whole "open source" thing through his work with Mozilla, and chose to eat his own dog food.

Honestly, he should get credit for sticking with it for this long. He's a guy who has work he needs to have done, and Linux wasn't cutting it. More importantly, it wasn't cutting it and the "linux community" refused to accept that it had any failures at all. Well, maybe some token words of acknowledgement, before going off and reinventing the desktop or package manager again.

I like Linux just fine as a server. I wouldn't bother with the desktop at all, and haven't for more than 6 years.

From TFA

[byolinux]

Dear Slashdot: please don't post about this. Screw you guys.

D'oh!

Re:From TFA

[RonnyJ]

See, reverse-psychology does work!

Re:From TFA

[Rahga]

Nah, it's just more proof that even /. editors don't read the articles.

And people wonder why there are so many reposts....

Re:From TFA

[RonnyJ]

It's pretty evident that the editor actually managed to read at least some of this article, as the following line shows:

from the don't-worry-jamie-we-won't-post-it dept.

Re:From TFA

[BigGerman]

no reverse-psychology never works. I am telling you never.

Re:From TFA

[bahamat]

Even better:

from the don't-worry-jamie-we-won't-post-it dept.

Re:I don't get it.

[JanneM]

Okay, he has a preference. Why is this important?

Desktop developers can finally integrate xscreensaver into the Freedesktop framework without pissing him off?

new flash...

[rednip]

JWZ disallusioned, posts comment in blog... news at 11.

I hate to be a jerk, I loved all his negitive comments about Netscape/ Mozilla, and whatever else he works on, but it got old like 6 years ago.

Re:new flash...

[chrish]

The best part is how the Linux community is banding together to investigate why someone (anyone; I know a lot of Linux folks moving to Mac OS X) would dump their OS in favour of a BSD variant. And how they're totally not burning bridges to lure folks back!

What is this article doing on Slashdot?

[Anonymous Coward]

So someone is switching to OS-X? So what?? And this made the frontpage news? May I ask why? Is it happening so rarely that when one person makes the switch to OS-X it is a front page news?

Re:What is this article doing on Slashdot?

[Waffle Iron]

And this made the frontpage news? May I ask why?

Well, at least it's not another report about the latest status of the 3 suspects in Aruba.

Re:What is this article doing on Slashdot?

[generic-man]

It's open source, right? That means that anyone could be an xscreensaver maintainer! Everyone can modify the code and the software will be updated forever and ever!

If you need me, I'll be in my ivory tower.

Motivation?

[mistersooreams]

This seems to me more like a desperate cry for attention in which Zawinski says he is switching platform in the hope that the Linux mob will cry "Don't leave us Jamie!" and he can then return in a blaze of glory. I really appreciate everything that he has done for OSS, and I hope others do too, but I can't condone something like this. Mod me troll you like, but he seems frighteningly cynical.

Re:Motivation?

[cowbutt]

Who is this fellow anyway? I've never heard about him before, so why should I care what some random blogger is writing?

jwz is responsible for many significant *NIX applications.

Re:Motivation?

[online-shopper]

That's interesting, I've set it up on an FC2 box following the howto and it works fine, perhaps you want to try to work out your problem?
Almost every time I've had experiance with JWZ he's been an ass. Abusive, whiney, and generally more concerned about how he shouldn't have to do something and how it was our fault(in #fedora) then he was about fixing whatever problem he was having.

Congratulations, Jamie.

[croddy]

You got your LiveJournal linked on the front page of Slashdot. Now get your butt upstairs, Mom needs help with the dishes!

The reason he switched..

[wfberg]

.. it DIDN'T go "beep beep beep".

Sounds familiar

[October_30th]

I gave up and went to Mac. I still have a Linux desktop, but I am sick, sick, sick to death of having to tweak every last little friggin' thing.

I also gave up and went for a Mac for exactly the same reason. It's unacceptable that in 2005 a Linux distribution (FC3, in my case) doesn't recognize a three-button+wheel USB mouse out-of-box or that setting up a TV card requires you to edit some config-files by hand.

Re:Sounds familiar

[generic-man]

If I buy a TV tuner card, I don't want to examine the model numbers of all the chips on it just so I can use it to watch TV. I want to insert it into my computer, toss in a CD, reboot, and then watch American Idol until my brain falls out.

Re:Sounds familiar

[October_30th]

My logitech usb mouse has a windows driver

I don't quite understand why you're using Windows as a reference, when I was clearly talking about Mac. I plugged the mouse in and it just worked.

Oh, I know, it needs you to know what you're doing, and that usually needs some brainwork.

Ah yes, the tired old "If Linux is not good enough for you, it's because you're not good enough for Linux" argument. Ten years ago I used to spout that elitist bullshit, too.

I've lost the count of how many Linux computers I've built. I've set up and maintained Sun and DEC Alpha boxes (running both DEC Unix and Linux) and, quite frankly, I feel like I've done my share of tweaking. Now, all I want is a desktop computer that works for me -- not vice versa -- and Linux just doesn't cut it.

Re:Sounds familiar

[October_30th]

Why don't you write the code to do this yourself, it's all GPL.

Uh. Why should I want to waste my time writing and testing such code when I can get a system that works out-of-box?

Re:Sounds familiar

[kubrick]

and then watch American Idol until my brain falls out

Sounds like a precondition, not a postcondition.

Re:Sounds familiar

[daviddennis]

I strongly suspect that most people pay for their Linux distributions nowadays.

And, of course, most people aren't capable of fixing bugs in operating system software.

They just complain their mouse doesn't work, because it doesn't.

D

Re:Sounds familiar

[Dalroth]

Just because it works for you doesn't mean it works for everybody and that is exactly the problem. Linux developers get things working just well enough, that if you have the right hardware, and the right amount of tinkering things will work for you. Hell, you may even be one of the lucky few who have the exact same setup as the original devs and don't have to tinker at all.

Unforutnately, for the rest of us, I have better things to do with my time that mess around with asoundrc files. All I want is for every freakin program to properly output over my SPDIF channel. Is that really too much to ask for? Apparently it is, and I've almost switched back to windows on numerous occasions because of this.

In fact, the ONLY thing keeping me on Linux right now is MythTV. If it wasn't for MythTV, all my servers would probably be OSX by now and my Media box would be Windows.

Bryan

Re:Sounds familiar

[Guy Harris]

my tv card also works great with the bttv and I only need to seelect the tuner type in a config file

Can a driver determine the tuner type by querying the card?

If so, then requiring the user to select the tuner type in a config file is completely stupid; the user shouldn't have to tell the computer something about a peripheral if the computer can determine that information itself without the user having to get involved.

I Find Jamie's Lack of Faith Disturbing

[TooMuchEspressoGuy]

C'mon... a sound problem is enough to make someone abandon an entire OS? Heck, if that were true, I would have abandoned my Windows box years ago.

Farewell, O ye of little faith.

Re:I Find Jamie's Lack of Faith Disturbing

[Al Dimond]

Certainly that's the case for a modern desktop operating system.

To be honest, I'm still waiting for a feature from BeOS to hit the "modern desktop operating system" scene: volume bars in the mixer for each different program that's using sound. So if I want to listen to music and play a game with obnoxious sound that can't be disabled (this happens with Java and Flash games mostly), I don't have to listen to the obnoxious sound.

I could probably create a user account, not put it in the "sound" group, and run all such games under that user, and it wouldn't have permission to access the sound device...

telling

[bwy]

I think it is pretty telling that someone who has a lot of technical expertise has the same problems that a lot of us have had with desktop Linux. The problem is real, folks.

If Linux on the desktop is to survive, I really think there needs to be a major coordinated effort to get lots of things in line. Maybe some type of consortium that would facilitate dialog between different groups and/or state a common direction. It is really hard to build a solid desktop OS when you've got thousands of developers operating independently or in small groups. You might get a few good solid apps, but the OS itself is going to be a patchworked hodge-podge.

Re:telling

[bgfay]

"If Linux on the desktop is to survive..."

This is my favorite thing to hear about Linux. Linux will survive on the desktop, on servers, on refrigerators for as long as one person wants to run it there. I have a Linux machine that I use for most things, Windows on my laptop, and an iMac in the bedroom for playing music, movies, and using the web. Everyone wants to get worked up about Linux's survival. It's not survival that matters, it will survive a good long time, it's the advancement of it.

Sheesh.

Re:telling

[torokun]

You want to know the real issue?

People in high school, college, grad school, or academia have enough time to futz around with this stuff.

People who work on open source code or work in linux day-to-day are paid to futz around or buy a preconfigured system.

But people who are not in the above categories do not generally have the TIME to deal with crap like this. Heck, I put together my own machine a few years ago, and still haven't had time to back it all up and reinstall it, even though I've needed to, for over 3 years. These people would much rather pay for something to work than spend their time trying to make it work. This is the issue. TIME.

Obnoxious screensaver

[art6217]

Perhaps it is because the Mac OS X screensaver does not have the obnoxious features like:

1. Short timeout for writing passwords, what may make it difficult for some people to unlock the screen at all.

2. Stupid, delaying messages after entering the wrong password, as if the security delay by the authorization system was not enough.

3. Ugly, ugly, *ugly* logo.

4. Small, non-antialiased fonts in the password dialog, as if the screen space was so scarce when all other windows are hidden anyway.

;)

Re:Obnoxious screensaver

[WWWWolf]

If you think the current logo is ugly, please don't look at the old logo. That was scaring old ladies.

(Really. I was working in one place where my work computer was previously being used by visitors. I locked my display when I went off for a bit and when I came back I heard some grandmommies had been getting scared by the logo or something)

I was pleased when the logo was replaced. Actually, I kind of like the current logo. In a weird way. Simple yet interesting. =)

From the blog of George W Bush

[p3d0]

I have decided I'm going to go ahead and invade Cyria.

Dear CNN: please don't report this. Screw you guys.

Bullshit

[bobbis.u]

Maybe he just got tired of fucking around with Linux. He got bored of having to trawl through "help" documents, fiddlying with config files and generally wasting time to achieve a second best result. He probably decided his time was worth the cost of buying a professional operating system that works. OK, so maybe he can't now reconfigure the colour of the drop shadow on the mouse pointer, but he clearly doesn't care about that.

Also, he doesn't really care what the Linux crowd thinks, which is why he posted the remark about Slashdot.

Re:Bullshit

[daviddennis]

He actually followed a pretty similar path to me.

Both of us have a significant amount of experience with SGI workstations. SGI, like Apple today, was a Unix that "just works". It had pretty fonts and a very nice designer look and feel. It was also elegant and a snap to administrate.

I, like JWZ, also used Linux workstations. But they were clunky compared to SGI and I always came back to the better design and more attractive display SGI had.

I also had a MacOS computer, which I used for video editing and running commercial software such as Photoshop. I liked it a lot, but was wedded to emacs for text editing and SGI or Linux for web serving. So as a result I needed to have two computers on my desk, a Mac for graphics and a SGI for Unix stuff.

Then MacOS X came out. It was a lot like SGI - it was like a designer Unix, with even more slickness. As a result, I gradually switched away from SGI, especially when it became clear that SGI was not updating their GUI to be competitive with what Apple has. I shed a tear for SGI, because their stuff was the best at the time. I wish they'd been able to make a more elegant transition to the world of cheaper computers.

For me, MacOS X truly combines the best of the open source and proprietary worlds. I can use a slick and stable GUI, running all the slickest proprietary applications such as Final Cut Pro and Photoshop. On the same machine I can also run all the open source web software I could ever want. And I can even copy that software and have it run fine on a Linux server without missing a beat.

So I know exactly where JWZ's coming from, and it's interesting that we followed such a similar path. I joined Apple before he did probably mainly due to my need for proprietary software like Final Cut and Photoshop.

I can say from my own experience that I've never been happier with my computing environment than I am now. We'll see how the more cynical JWZ does. No doubt he'll find much to hate and much to love.

D

Re:Bullshit

[Travoltus]

Oh, please.

Reading a few hundred pages of help documents and web sites to only find out that you really cannot get two sounds at once from your multi channel sound card after all, is how you build character.

Only idiots expect to turn on a computer, slap in a card, run an automated driver install program and expect the thing to work.

Ok, satire aside, I'm a pretty hard core linux fan, but I still know Linux has some serious limitations. We need to get over them instead of brushing off people who are frustrated.

Linux needs to grow as an OS because, very soon, it could become a national security issue. The whole world is coming close to getting fscked by a whole universe of automated Windows-hijacking worms and spyware that simply cannot survive and self-propagate in Linux.

99% of intrusions into Linux OSes are done by hackers who target the machine and actually work on breaking in; for Windows? It's a matter of one zombie machine infecting another while the original perpetrator is off in his/her maniacal slumberland.

But since it is a NIGHTMARE to get some stuff/features working in Linux, and most games won't play in Linux without the help of WineX (and still some won't work then), well there ya go, people still flock to Windows and still get their machines zombified...

Re:Bullshit

[cahiha]

Only idiots expect to turn on a computer, slap in a card, run an automated driver install program and expect the thing to work.

I had to try three 802.11 USB sticks before I found one that actually worked on Windows. I have been through four Bluetooth USB devices, and none of them work correctly.

Macintosh is even worse: most of the USB hardware I have doesn't even have drivers for Macintosh, so it won't work at all. For supposedly supported hardware, the track record is not much better than on Windows. The only thing that I found works reliably on Macintosh is all-Apple hardware.

So, please stop spreading FUD: this is a big problem with all current operating systems. The only way you can avoid it is by picking the hardware and software you install very carefully to get the stuff that works. And that's true on all platforms. In fact, its true for most high-tech products we buy in general.

Re:Bullshit

[macwhiz]

Macintosh is even worse: most of the USB hardware I have doesn't even have drivers for Macintosh, so it won't work at all. For supposedly supported hardware, the track record is not much better than on Windows. The only thing that I found works reliably on Macintosh is all-Apple hardware.

So, please stop spreading FUD...

Who's spreading FUD?

True, Macs work best with Apple hardware... which makes sense, since that means they've been validated to work together from day one.

Since most Macs sold today already come with 802.11g support built in, and those that don't already have the antennas and only need an AirPort Express card, who needs a USB 802.11 adapter? Why waste the port, have a dongle sticking out of the computer, and deal with the extra overhead?

One of the ways Macs outshine the low-cost competition is that most of the things you need are standard. Take the iMac: Gigabit ethernet? Standard. Optical audio? Standard. FireWire for your camcorder? Standard. 802.11g and Bluetooth? Standard.

As for third-party USB hardware, I've not had a problem. My Macs have lots of USB accessories:

• USB speakers (harmon/kardon SoundSticks
• Logitech mice
• Contour ShuttleXpress
• Belkin Nostromo n52
• Palm cradle
• cheapie GE TetraHub from Target
• Lexar flash media reader
• HP multifunction device
• Targus numeric keypad
• Saitek joystick
• Gravis gamepad
• Wacom tablet
• IOgear KVM
• Logitech keyboard
• APC UPS

The only thing in the list that doesn't work reliably is the Targus keypad, which seems to produce some nonstandard keycodes that confuse OS X 10.4. It's not listed as Mac-compatible. It does work, except that the Num Lock key must be on to type numbers and off to hit Enter. I suspect that's the keypad's fault, not Apple's.

So what's unreliable? A lot of USB stuff doesn't have Mac drivers because it's not needed -- the Mac has built-in support for much of it. Heck, my APC UPS came with a Mac driver that was unnecessary, because the OS automatically recognizes it and does a better job managing it than the APC software does!

I've tried to get some of this stuff to work on my FreeBSD and Linux boxes. It didn't work, even when it was supposed to work. Open source UNIX-alikes will never gain much market-share so long as the programmers maintain the "it works for me, I don't know why you're so picky/you didn't read the manual/write your own fix" attitude.

Re:Bullshit

[Daniel Phillips]

For me, MacOS X truly combines the best of the open source and proprietary worlds. I can use a slick and stable GUI, running all the slickest proprietary applications such as Final Cut Pro and Photoshop. On the same machine I can also run all the open source web software I could ever want. And I can even copy that software and have it run fine on a Linux server without missing a beat. So I know exactly where JWZ's coming from, and it's interesting that we followed such a similar path. I joined Apple before he did probably mainly due to my need for proprietary software like Final Cut and Photoshop.

I salute Apple for continuing to push the envelope in designer guis. Nonetheless, Apple is still closed source, has a smaller developer army than Linux, is not as adaptable as Linux, and is falling further and further behind Linux in desktop adoption. Got to be a story in there, hmm?

Re:Bullshit

[cahiha]

So what's unreliable? A lot of USB stuff doesn't have Mac drivers because it's not needed -- the Mac has built-in support for much of it.

Same in Linux.

As for third-party USB hardware, I've not had a problem. My Macs have lots of USB accessories:

All of that hardware works with Windows and Linux as well.

Open source UNIX-alikes will never gain much market-share

Open source UNIX-alikes already have a larger market share than Macintosh.

True, Macs work best with Apple hardware... which makes sense, since that means they've been validated to work together from day one.

And the same is true for Linux and Windows: buy hardware that is supported by, and tested with, the OS, and you are going to be fine on any OS. Macintosh is no better than Linux in this regard.

Re:Bullshit

[nathanh]

Who's spreading FUD?

Well apparently you are. The grandparent was pointing out that all platforms - including Windows and OSX - sometimes have problems working with various pieces of hardware. Your response is to start spouting techno bibblety-babble about how many accessories you own.

Here's one for you. I've got a Mac here which doesn't support a PCI TV Tuner card or a USB TV Tuner dongle. Both pieces work in Windows XP and in Linux (Debian). Now if I was to do a JWZ (JWZ being a verb for having a pretentious hissy fit) then I'd write a scathing blog about how crappy OSX is and how I'm switching to Linux.

Or the more reasonable person that I am would say that sometimes you should check the supported hardware list before blaming the OS for not supporting some obscure piece of hardware.

Funniest post on livejournal:

[haggar]

Dear Slashdot: please don't post about this. Screw you guys.

You'll be lucky. This will be posted to Slashdot within twelve hours. And then again twelve hours after that.

Dark Side

[Ed Almos]

No, he has NOT been twisted by the dark side, he has just been pissed off for the last time by Linux software which does not do the job.

We have a printer system that was developed for line printers and never matured.

We have a sound system that works most (but not all) of the time if you are lucky.

We have power management issues on laptops which Microsoft fixed in 1995.

And finally

I have a laptop running Red Hat 9 because Fedora 1, Fedora 2, Fedora 3 and SuSE 9.x all have so many major problems with their basic installation that the machine is unusable. My next laptop will be an Apple machine.

Instead of adding more features I for one would be grateful if the Linux software developers fixed existing software. Bug hunting is not sexy but it might avoid more incidents like this.

Ed Almos
Budapest, Hungary

Re:Dark Side

[maelstrom]

"We have a printer system that was developed for line printers and never matured."

Are you referring to Cups?

"We have a sound system that works most (but not all) of the time if you are lucky."

How is this different from OSX or Windows?

"We have power management issues on laptops which Microsoft fixed in 1995."

Agreed, plus suspend is a PITA!

Re:Dark Side

[caino59]

Maybe try Ubuntu.

Seriously - all the problems you complain about work flawlessly on every system I have tried.

Power management, wireless, sound, suspend and hibernate modes, detected widescreen res, everything.

Sure you have to install some stuff to get things like real medai - but you gotta do that on windows too!

(not to mention - most people use other media players instead of winamp, so I dont see installing stuff as a big deal - lets me put on what i want)

Seriously, try it if you haven't already. I've been using it for about a year and have been EXTREMELY satisfied.

Re:Dark Side

[generic-man]

Hey, this whole article is "One man abandoned an operating system, so I guess that OS really sucks now." How much scientific thought did you expect?

Funny thing...

[ATMosby]

Some of the same reasons that I'm switching away from Linux to OSX. Don't have the time to fight those battles anymore. *Don't* want to fight those battles anymore

Sound

[ultrabot]

The posts so for have missed the main point. That is, sound in Linux sucks. It just needs to be fixed.

- arts must die, and it will w/ KDE4

- esd must die

- every program should start using gstreamer

- ALSA must learn to do proper software mixing out of the box.

Imagine my "pleasure" when I inadvertly caused a "beep" to emerge from my terminal window, and as a result had to wait a while (20 seconds? can't remember) before I could start playing a video with sound. Or how I had to do "killall -9 artsd" to start playing video in totem after listening to music on Amarok (which is superior to rhythmbox in most ways).

Re:Sound

[IamTheRealMike]

ALSA has dmix which does pretty much this, and it's enabled out of the box for apps that need it in Fedora Core 4 which should be out tomorrow.

There's still some disagreement on whether dmix is the way forward, but hopefully within a year or two software sound mixing will be like fonts are now - pretty much a solved problem.

Re:Sound

[dozer]

Because it adds significant latency. It's pretty much impossible to sync audio and video when the audio is going through artsd. Thank goodness the KDE guys are finally ditching this afwul program. Saves me the trouble of turning it (and esd) off on every new Linux install.

Re:Sound

[FooBarWidget]

Many apps try to use very different systems to get the fonts? Really?

Uhm... let's see:
- GTK 2: fontconfig
- QT 2 and 3: fontconfig
- Mozilla/Firefox: fontconfig
- OpenOffice: fontconfig
The two major toolkits are already using fontconfig, and have been for almost two years now.

What's that you say? "Motif"? "Other toolkits"? Come on, this is 2005. Apps using any other toolkits are... what? 1% of the total number of available applications?

So, where is the problem you're talking about?

That's it, I'm switching too!

[bgfay]

I've had it with these complicated operating systems. I've never gotten my printer to work correctly on Linux, my Mac is just a total pain in the ass and slug, and I spend hours upon hours trying to do the easiest things on Windows.

The hell with all of you. I just installed DOS on my box and all is well.

Slashdot, please don't post this. You guys are jerks and I'm going to tell my mommy about you.

he is not completely wrong.

[CaptnMArk]

Sound under linux requires a card that supports
hardware mixing of multiple audio streams
(SoundBlaster Live or newer is the only one that comes to mind and that I have (1 live, 1 audigy)).

Anything else is mostly unusable because of the lack of kernel (== always works) mixer.

User space mixers are a joke (or at least were last I tried them) because of incompatibility.

Re:Sounds like a hardware problem to me...

[harlows_monkeys]

Hard to hear you say that (I heard this on Slashdot, alas). I heard you had problems with sound cards in Linux. However, I do belive you may have the same problems with MacOS X -- you can't play two sounds at once

I don't know where you got that notion, but it is wrong. Right now, for example, my OS X system is playing music in iTunes, environmental sounds from World of Warcraft, and my terminal can beep, as can my email program when I receive a mail.

Re:Fix Setup!

[JahToasted]

There is a huge gap between the developers and users and that is the problem. The developers are "too important" to listen to the concerns of users. They have too much pride. They have their idea of how things should be done and are insulted if anyone suggests a different way. How long has the GIMP had a crappy user interface? Why does GNOME have this spatial paradigm as opposed to the more popular navigation paradigm? Why so I have to totally reformat my hard drive to install debian or ubuntu? Why are dialogs to big to fit on a 800x600 screen?

These things are very obvious problems, at least to the users. But the developers have convinced themselves that these aren't problems so they just move on to adding new features and forget about these small issues. But its the details that are important to the users. I don't care if gnome supports SVG graphics or whatever, but I do want to be able to get my photos off my digital camera easily. I want to scan in something and print a copy. Why is that so hard?

This is the major flaw with open source software. Most of the developers are volunteering their time so they care about what interests them. Thats fine, no one should tell them what they should be spending their own time doing. But until Open Source "grows up" and starts listening to its users it will never be popular and shouldn't expect to be.

Re:Fix Setup!

[Hrunting]

Yeah, this is a great comment. On the one hand, you have Linux advocates and distribution channels shouting that Linux is ready for the desktop and they have installers that do everything for you and it supports X, Y, and Z hardware right out of the box.

However, when someone has a problem, it seems like the solution is always the same: if you spent as much time coding a solution as you did bitching about it, it'd be fixed right now. To me as an end-user, that seems like a cop-out. To me as a programmer, that seems like the coders don't want to be bothered with trivial bugs, but want to code new and exciting, but mostly broken, tidbits of software. Neither are good for the community.

Guess what, the average person is still going to have to call tech support to install their video games. That's just the way it is. There is no way that everyone in the world is going to become an ace at computers. That's why mature video game companies invest in a) better installers and b) tech support. If Linux really cares about the global domination aspect, maybe their community can change its PoV a little about these less technical users that are coming in and HELPFULLY pointing out serious impediments to that goal.

Torvalds next OS X user?

[yerdaddie]

With Linus using a Powermac for his development, you can't help but wonder if he secretly uses OS X now and then ... you know to run Photoshop and stuff. Now that jwz and all the cool kids are making the switch, it could only be a matter of time...

Re:Torvalds next OS X user?

[zr-rifle]

So who is this Linus guy and why should i care what OS he is running ?

maybe i should submit a story about what OS my neighbour runs, or perhaps his brother and wife

Time for linux to change its focus.

[jellomizer]

If Linux is going to succeed on in gaining Desktop Market share. You should really listen to the rants of people who tried the platform and then ditched it. So except for calling the ditcher Dumb or a quitter. Look at the complaints. He wanted to get the sound card to work, or 2 sound cards to work and went threw the processes of RTFM and Asking for Help with no avail. So guess what they switched. And on the Mac it just worked. I think a lot of Linux Zealots and/or developers should use Macs for a while to get use to "Just works" and what it really means. I mean if this was 1990 sound cards were considered a speciality item on a PC like adding TV Tuner Card today. But every modern computer has a sound card. And for God sake Linux should support sound. Sound it no longer just for cutisy dings and for games. It is used for practical application such as VoIP and Watching DVD, Sound is now an integral component to the system and Linux should support it and support it well.

Multiple issues with that ...

[khasim]

If some individuals would spend the time they do hunting down negative comments about Linux, to actually fix Linux...

Hunting down articles doesn't require to you learn any programming language. Anyone can hunt down articles, very few people can program. So the two groups aren't coincident.

...you wouldn't have to worry about people exposing how difficult Linux is for the average user.

What "worry"? Linux is very easy to install and run ... except for sound, wireless, 3D graphics and certain laptop chipsets.

Now, if your "average user" does not use those features, then Linux is easier than Windows and on par with a Mac.

The "problem" is that most of the HOME user market DOES want those features. But the CORPORATE/GOVERNMENT desktop will NOT focus on those features.

So it all depends upon how you segment the market on whether this is an "issue" or a "critical problem".

I'm all for bringing Linux to the mainstream and replacing Windows as the dominant OS, ...

Eh, whatever. It's a tool. You use whatever works best in each situation. The key point with Linux is that it CAN be modified to suit your requirements.

...but that just won't happen until the average person can install their video games without calling tech support.

The home desktop market will be the LAST market segment that will fall to Linux.

First will be the servers - we're already seeing this happen.

Second will be the corporate/government desktops - this is just beginning.

Last will be the home market - there are just too many limited-run, proprietary hardware pieces out there that work "good enough" right now. In time I believe they will migrate to Linux. But focusing on the LAST segment and claiming that there's a problem when the OTHER segments are starting to migrate is just silly.

Sigh...

[ledow]

How this qualifies as an important piece of news, I don't know. I'm assuming it's a "comedy" piece because he said "Dear Slashdot: please don't post about this. Screw you guys." on one of the linked pages.

However, I myself have had problems with sound in linux, yes, but considering that (as someone who had only ever played about with TCP/IP in Linux and had never touched X or the Linux desktop until a few months ago) I have now switched from Windows to a Linux desktop and got sound working in all apps installed within a few days of switching. That was about four months ago and I still don't use Windows.

I had worked out everything he had worked out in less than two days of having a linux desktop. There are things that should be simpler (cups, sound, etc.) but none of them hindered me for very long and, once properly set up, work much better than my previous OS's incarnations. Yes, it's a pain having to "set things up", but it's hardly worth such a strop.

We all know arts, esd, etc. are a pain in the ass and, yes, we are all waiting for ALSA to "just work". Now that it's in the kernel, we finally have a standardised, working, maintained sound system that supports mixing on EVERY LINUX MACHINE. This should be the turning point.

If a program that plays sound doesn't have an ALSA-compatible option by now, it's not being maintained properly. If it does, it will just work with ALSA and any plugins you might use, e.g. dmix.

As soon as 2.6 distros become the standard, we can work on getting EVERY app to use the same damn sound systems.

I saw his entry on wikipedia and if he's such a great programmer who has made contributions to such important projects as, gosh, XScreensaver, it makes me wonder why the hell he:

a) didn't know this already (not a single XScreensaver that uses sound?).

b) can't work it out for himself.

c) throws a major strop because it's not point-and-click.

It occurs that he's just missed the point. You don't have a Linux desktop to say "I've got a Linux desktop". You don't have one to beat every other desktop into the ground with your technical superiority (real or percieved). You don't have one to complain that it's not like Windows. You don't have one to play iTunes (as he seems to value this as an important feature).

My desktop is Linux because it works, it's fast enough, it does what I want, it doesn't restrict me in any way, it's free, it's Free, it doesn't blue-screen, crash, corrupt and die every few months/years, I can leave it running overnight and not worry about if it'll crash before it finishes it's downloads, I can access it remotely (a good thing when you're working behind restrictive child-safe proxies all the time), and I can do things without wizards, dogs and paperclips jumping up to "help me find a file".

I can't help feeling that any decent programmer would have been able to overcome the same little roadhumps on the way without so much as a sigh. They might even have bothered to fix the troublesome programs themselves.

Re:Sigh...

[earthbound kid]

Yes, everything you said about Linux is true. The problem is that OS X also "doesn't blue-screen, crash, corrupt and die every few months/years, I can leave it running overnight and not worry about if it'll crash before it finishes it's downloads, I can access it remotely (a good thing when you're working behind restrictive child-safe proxies all the time), and I can do things without wizards, dogs and paperclips jumping up to 'help me find a file'." Oh, and also the sound just works out of the box.

Linux is going to have to get better if it's going to compete with OS X. Competing against Windows isn't that hard. Linux is basically at par with it in most areas. The real problem for Linux is that it has to be not just as good as Windows, but better than Windows and its other competitors. And right now, other competitor #1 is OS X, and OS X just 'stole' a Linux developer by being easier to set up sound cards.

Is it a little thing? Yes, and that's exactly the problem: In OS X, the little things, just work!

Re:Sigh...

[tigerc]

Because maybe he has more important things to do? Because maybe he wants to do other things? Because maybe he wants something that works right out of the box. Because a lot of us don't have infinite amounts of time.

Re:Sigh...

[cosminn]

In OS X, the little things, just work!

yea right...i got a Mac Mini with Tiger on it (I think it came out about 1 week before). Before I wipe it out completely and put Gentoo on it I say 'ok, let's give it a try and see the 'amazing' Tiger' ... boot it up, go through the wizard thingie (Mac and no wizards..yea rite), and finally get in Tiger....I go do the updates, 11 at number...while at update 6 I decide to open a terminal (guess that was a no-no that I should've been aware of) and ... the machine freezes...it had the little multi-color ball rotating, terminal didn't open, and the update seemed to have frozen...i rebooted it and could never get back in...the OS just never finished loading...so much for stability.. the Mac Mini now is very happy with Gentoo and sound, xine/mplayer etc... so, just like Mr. Zawinski was very pissed off at his Linux box, I was at the MacOSX...I guess we each had to do what we had to do...

-Cos

P.S. And when the heck is Apple going to actually make their machines (which have great hw, don't get me wrong) with a freakin' eject button for the CD...i should not spend time on Google searching on how to eject a freaking CD...cause holding the right click at boot for like 5 seconds or whatever it was that ejected it is not user-intuitive!

Same old crap

[Tilmitt]

That's such a typical Linux users response. You say it's better and then when it's shown that it isn't you say "Oh well it's free so it's allowed to not work!" You're like the people who have endless betas so that they can't be given out to for having buggy code.

Can't blame him, sound on linux still sucks

[Guillaume Laurent]

Just about 8 out of 10 user support questions we get on rosegarden are actually sound setup problems. This isn't just a hardware support issue, the "final packaging" step on things like Alsa and JACK just isn't there. Yes, distribs should probably do it, but currently none does. No normal user can configure sound on linux as it is, beyond the basic 'play a .wav file'.

Howto: Make linux work properly on the Desktop

[WhiteWolf666]

Get SuSE.
Get an SB Live! Value or an SB Audigy! Value.
Get an Nvidia Geforce(1/2/3/4) MX or not video card.
Use an ACX110/111 802.11g wireless card.

Done.

Hardware audio mixing, all the drivers will auto-install. An almost Mac OS X-like experience, and certainly much easier than Windows.

Re:Howto: Make linux work properly on the Desktop

[generic-man]

Linux is only free if your hardware has no value.

Re:Howto: Make linux work properly on the Desktop

[WhiteWolf666]

1. I was wrong. Newest SuSE, Mandrake, and Fedora now include software mixing out of box.

2. On Linux, the Nvidia hardware is siginifcantly faster than equivalent ATI lines.

3. I'm a Mac OS X fan, but it is significantly cheaper to build a linux box with easy to setup hardware than it is to get a OS X box with equivalent hardware.

Plus, I'm not impressed with Mac performance in gaming. My fairly cheap AMD64 mid-range box smokes my Dual G5 2.5 with a geforce 6800Gt in World of Warcraft.

I'm running WoW on Cedega in Linux, versus a native binary for OS X.

Also, exactly how did I suggest you should downgrade your hardware? Except for the soundcard thing, which is actually a non-issue if your running a latest distro, Nvidia and TI produce top-notch hardware.

Re:Howto: Make linux work properly on the Desktop

[Anonymous Coward]

Get SuSE.
Get an SB Live! Value or an SB Audigy! Value.
Get an Nvidia Geforce(1/2/3/4) MX or not video card.
Use an ACX110/111 802.11g wireless card.

So Linux works only with this particular hardware setup? Uhh... thanks, but no thanks.

Re:Howto: Make linux work properly on the Desktop

[Yosho]

Get an SB Live! Value or an SB Audigy! Value.

The only problem with this is that SB Live!s suck ass. I have seen so many people's computers lock up, crash intermittently, or refuse to even boot because they had an SB Live! that didn't want to play nice with the rest of their hardware, and the featureset really isn't all that good even for a budget card.

Try a Turtle Beach Riviera if you need a good budget card.

Re:Macs Intel and Switching

[online-shopper]

you run fucking *GENTOO*?!?!?!? you bitch about tweaking and you run *GENTOO*?!?!? and a Pentium MMX no less... here's a clue, for your next computer, buy some moderately modern hardware with a halfway decent linux distro.

I also don't get it

[RoLi]

So he had a problem with ALSA and some sound-chipset (probably that 97-something). Oh and the problem was that he couldn't play 2 sounds at once. (The horror!)

So instead of purchasing a $10 audio card (which will work on Linux) he gets an iMac.

There is a huge double-standard going on when it's about Linux and MacOSX:

Both Linux and MacOSX will run fine on supported hardware but Linux supports a lot more hardware. How exactly does that make MacOSX better?

Re:I also don't get it

[GlassHeart]

Both Linux and MacOSX will run fine on supported hardware but Linux supports a lot more hardware. How exactly does that make MacOSX better?

Because of the difference in definitions of the word "supported". In MacOS, that word usually means "auto-detected, driver already present or on companion CD-ROM, plug-and-play". In Linux, it can mean exactly the same, or it can mean "look online, read config file comments, experiment, deal with lack of meaningful error messages" and more.

In the end, whether you value time or money more is entirely your own decision, and the people who find the Mac "better" probably value their time more. You don't have to agree, but it probably helps to understand why.

DMIX and You!

[WhiteWolf666]

Apparently, both the newest Mandrake (Mandriva?), Fedora Core 4, and SuSE 9.3 feature dmix out of the box for soundcards that do not support hardware mixing.

So this is now a non-problem.

Survey says? Stop running Redhat 5. Old linux=PITA. Get a new user-friendly distro.

Oh, you don't want a dumbed-down OS? Than why are you switching to OS X?

Note: I have a powerbook G4, running Tiger, and two mac minis running Tiger. I also have several linux desktops and 2 linux servers. I've got plenty of experience with both platforms.

But SuSE is almost as easy as OS X, and I can run most of my Windows games on SuSE.

Re:WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think what he meant by saying that was, "Oh fuck, you're right...you didn't say that. But I can't admit that I was wrong, and was blinded by my Linux fanboy tendencies, so I'll extrapolate as much I can out of your ACTUAL words, and pretend that I was right all along"

Wow...

[JayBlalock]

I'm really impressed at how the Linux geeks in this thread are responding to his criticisms about as well as Bill O'Reilly handles criticisms of our military.

You bet your sweet bippy that was a troll. Do your worst, I've got karma to spare.

*NOW* is the time for Linux to get its collective head out of the sand and really reach out to the common users. You know how on a weekly basis we laugh at Microsoft for announcing yet another feature that will NOT be in Longhorn? Let me just put this one in bold:

Longhorn is going to suck. It's going to be the worst Windows since ME.

Microsoft has no plan for it. They know they have really taken Windows about as far as it can go, and any real changes are going to require years of work. But because of market pressures, they can't really take the time that would need - and yet, due to mismanagement, they're going to spend years wastefully. This is the PERFECT opportunity for Linux to finally rise to the forefront -- but only if the geeks get off their high horses and admit that a good OS has to be usable by common man. AND, right along side that, if they can come to understand criticism is NOT necessarily an attack. Reading responses on this thread, all I can think of is O'Reilly screaming 'Shup up! SHUT UP!' at anyone speaking facts he doesn't want to face.

I gave up on Linux for the same reasons as Zawinski. I want an OS that *works*. I don't want to tweak my sound drivers. I don't want to have my nVidia drivers FRICKING VANISH after a week of working right (after a week of work to get them running). I don't want to have to remember that completely ridiculous program names like "the GIMP" are actually usuable graphics applications and not, as the name would suggest to a normal human being, porn videos.

(yes, I know what the name stands for. That does not change the fact that Granny Average User would never in a million years click on something called a "gimp" looking for a way to take the redeye out of her pictures.)

The Linux community needs to get out of the 90s. There are modern solutions to every major problem with the OS, and within a year, two at max, they could make it REALLY user-friendly. The problem is that user-friendliness isn't sexy to Linux geeks. No one wants to spend time writing a new sound library that actually works when they can just look down their noses at anyone who doesn't know how to properly configure ALSA. And the only thing less sexy than THAT is not writing any actual code at all, but just going through the OS and making sure the user dialogues make some sort of sense to those who don't have PhDs and, as someone else mentioned, will actually fit on a screen resolution of less than 1024x768.

But you know what? Someone has to do it. Because if no one does, Linux will NEVER get past being a hobbyist OS, and whatever horrible things the next Windows introduces to the computing world, we'll be stuck with dealing with them. ('Cause god knows, I just *love* having mailboxes on Linux and Mac machines shut down because Windows-borne virii have filled them with spam. That helps my sense of superiority to no end.)

So this is truly put up and shut up time. There has never been a better opportunity for Linux to really make some inroads in the home market - but only if the contributors are willing to make some compromises and give the other 90% of users some reason to switch. So all I ask is, if you contribute to OSS, and you EVER spend any time online complaining about how Linux could be great if only it could get into the mainstream - use that time to tweak Linux's usability instead. Fixing bad error messages doesn't even require much programming skill at all. Make Linux usable for common people, and it can succeed. Period.

Re:Wow...

[Emetophobe]

I stopped using Linux a while ago after many years of tweaking everything. It's alot more then just an issue with sound support for me. I just want stuff to work "out of the box". Eight years ago, I used to enjoy tweaking stuff and playing around with linux, but I grew tired of it. I just want to play games or listen to music, I don't want to spend a day tweaking the kernel, different config files, downloading X different dependencies to get something to work.

I think linux needs something similar to DirectX (bare with me for a minute). One subsystem for Sound (DirectSound), one subsystem for Input (DirectInput), etc.. The system as a whole would deal with the hardware, and provide a simple/standard interface so I don't have to worry what hardware the user is running. This is something I think the kernel SHOULD do, there shouldn't be a need to for all these sound systems and deamons (esd, etc.). I shouldn't have to worry about what sound card I use, the kernel should manage it for me, there is enough drivers out there now that this is possible at the kernel level, so why doesn't it happen?

The last thing I want to do is tweak my mouse, keyboard, graphics card, cdrom, monitor and everything else to get them to work. If linux really wants to compete, we need to make hardware detection "just work" at the kernel level so the average user doesn't have to worry about the underlying wiring.

I will say that some distributions have made great progress with hardware detection in the past 8 years from when I first started using it, but it really should be done by the kernel, not a user space program.

Did he ever try Gentoo?

[sqrammi]

I'm just wondering if he ever tried Gentoo Linux before he gave up Linux altogether. Gentoo has some distinct advantages over other Linux distributions. I myself have been frustrated with some of the shortcomings of other binary Linux distributions, but have grown to love Gentoo because:

• I never have to upgrade from one version to another. I'm always up to date! This is completely different from every other operating system out there. Whether it's Windows upgrading from XP to Longhorn, MacOS upgrading from 10.3 to 10.4, or Fedora upgrading from FC3 to FC4, most every OS out there requires a major upgrade every now and then. Gentoo does not.
• You have complete control over your programs. Don't like how a specific program works? Well, you can easily change the source and compile required libraries. Dependencies and required versions of libraries can be a nightmare in some distributions.
• Generally, everything just works. In my experience, I agree that it has absolutely been a chore to get some things working in Linux. Most of the time I don't mind it, but with Gentoo Linux I have definitely had to meddle with the system LESS than ever before. I have less programs crashing, even when I'm running all of the latest stuff.

I don't think I would have ever switched away from Linux, but Gentoo has certainly given Linux a new light that many Linux users just have not seen yet.

Re:Earth to Jamie - Linux is NOT FINISHED

[UtSupra]

... and it never will be.

Re:Fix Setup!

[ambrosius27]

One small correction:

GNOME *does* have the navagational paradigm, which is readily available within Nautilus menus. Navagational Nautilus is simply not the default mode.

While the spatial Nautilus decision was certainly controversial, it hardly seems worth the continuing flamewars over it.

Re:Jamie's mom is way cool!

[Hard_Code]

"Jamie's mom is way cool!"

You mean, like, "has got it going on"?

Tired of Futzing

[Shannon Love]

I can relate to Zawinski's frustration and many others do as well. I notice that it seems to effect those with more experience than those newer to computing.

When one first acquires a new tool, whether it is hardware, software or a woodworking plane, the very act of learning how use the tool itself works is highly engaging. Just futzing about figuring out how the new tool works is an end in itself.

However, after one has spent 20+ years learning the ends and out of each season's new tools the joy fades. One becomes progressively less interested in the tools itself and more interested in product you want to use the tool to make. The time spent futzing with the tool is not engaging but frustrating and wasteful. You want to get the primary work done not spend all your time adjusting your tools.

How many times over the years has Zawinski wrestled with a problem similar to his Linux sound issue? The thrill of solving such a problem is long gone, baby.

The Linux community is dominated by people who enjoy the process of learning and using the tool itself. They are the kind of people who take the toaster apart to see how it works. The vast majority of desktop users, however, just want to make toast.

People like Zawinski, who have taken apart their fair share of toasters, also now just want to make toast. At present, Linux doesn't let him do that.

Re:Tired of Futzing

[Anonymous Coward]

Bravo.

Your comment is the exact feeling of those of us who've been years amazed by the joy of learning the inner workings of a computer, its operating system, its tools, etc. but given the time just want it to work.

I've made the switch as well, moved from desktop linux to MacOS X a year and a half ago. And boy I'd never, ever look back. I've replaced every single desktop and workstation machine with macs around here.

Of course Linux deserves its place on the server side. That's somewhere I wouldn't change it (just *not yet*). Linux on the desktop is OK for people who wants to try it out, learn everything out of it, etc., but when you must get your real work done it just doesn't cut it.

Regards!

(posting anonymously as I've moderated on this story).

Years from now, people will ask each other...

[whatthef*ck]

... do you remember where you were when you first heard the news?

They'll nod solemnly, and in reverent tones, tell with precise detail where they were when they learned that Jamie Zawinski had switched to OS X.

Re:Sounds like a hardware problem to me...

[itcomesinwaves]

However, I do belive you may have the same problems with MacOS X -- you can't play two sounds at once.

Where in the world did you get that idea? Have you even used a mac since OSX came out? Since OS 8 came out? You do realize the Macs are the darlings of the media production industry, right? I mean honestly....

Honestly...

ALSA must die.

[Kludge]

Network Audio System (NAS) was around for a while before these other audio projects sprung up. Just as every Linux distribution uses the fully standard X windows as a networked video server, every Linux distribution should have used, from the outset, the existing fully networked audio server, NAS.

How all these Linux distros and desktops got themselves into so many fragmented half baked audio schemes is beyond me.

Re:Earth to Jamie - Linux is NOT FINISHED

[solios]

Earth to Jamie - Linux is NOT FINISHED

Neither is OS X or Windows. MacOS 9 is, and nobody's using it. OSsen are moving targets.

That said, "IT'S NOT FINSIHED!!!!" is no excuse, and the FOSS community's inability to take completely valid criticism and do something about it is one of the reasons it isn't "finished".

Re:Dark Side?!?!

[slim]

Apple is certainly /a/ Dark Side. I recently bought a Mac Mini to reaquaint myself with what Apple has to offer. I knew at the time that at the end of the day Apple's number one commitment is to it's shareholders, but blimey the OS X/iLife experience is just so commercial.

It's as if you can't open a menu without a "BUY ITUNES MUSIC" or "BUY GARAGEBAND ACCESSORIES" options being thrust in your face. You can't move for invitations to pay stump up more cash for .Mac. Your USB webcam doesn't work? Why not buy an iSight?

After years as primarily a Linux user, it's quite a shock to the system moving into an environment where I'm constantly being reminded of my status as a consumer.

He's a Prima Donna

[Colin Smith]

And is throwing his toys out of the pram because he's just not getting everything his way. Don't worry nothing is ever perfect for these guys, OS X won't be able to satisfy his demand that the world be made perfect for him either.

Guess what all you Prima Donnas, (and yes there are a *lot* of Prima Donnas out there). You will never ever get everything you want, something will always be wrong because the problem is not with the world at large, it's with your personality.

HTH

Re:He's a Prima Donna

[John Whitley]

And is throwing his toys out of the pram because he's just not getting everything his way.

I disagree; IMO he's got a legitimate point. From the JWZ blog regarding problems with XMMS hogging all audio output such that no other apps can play audio:

I can't believe I even have to think about this shit. What year is it again?

This frustration highlights a failing of the Linux-based desktop platform. Put generally, Linux systems often require the user fuss with (and be aware of!) highly technical system tweaks to satisfy some really basic end-user scenarios. The blog's thread has lots of people going on about ways to fix this particular problem, but frankly I'm on JWZ's side: it's a damn waste of time! At least it is for those whom, the computer is a tool for getting work done, instead of an end in and of itself.

Put another way, I'm all for some degree of tweaking in my day-to-day usage. I find and install new tools, write helpful scripts/plugins/etc., and do other "meta-work" to make myself more productive. This process is kinda fun, too. But having to screw around for hours figuring out what to do just to get more than one app to play audio is insane.

And the real killer is that the solution is probably not to just roll up the ol' sleeves and write some software to "scratch the itch". This isn't a software problem, it's a real world problem of fragmented design and developer effort and a lack of a seamless out-of-box experience for Linux-based systems.

Getting fed up with that is hardly "throwing [your] toys out of the pram" -- it's called cutting your losses.

The Solution -- just mix on multiple opens

[Morgaine]

There are tons of solutions to the problem, but they all miss the boat because they're done at the wrong level, and hence they're not transparent. The last thing we need are more sound demons. (I use NAS and it works fine, but it's the wrong solution too.)

All sound drivers without exception should work like they do currently on FIRST OPEN, but on second and subsequent opens they should automatically hook in a mixer and mix all inputs together.

The code to do it already exists, but it's just not being structured sensibly as above. It's no surprise that newbies find the one-at-a-time behaviour unhelpful, because it is. This is a multi-user O/S fer crissakes, single-open in sound drivers is just dumb!

Re:From your previous post.

[Gulthek]

You, ah, might want to retake some critical reading courses or something. His post as a whole didn't say anything like you argue against. Even the quote you pulled to back up your argument doesn't.

He does correctly point out that the elitist bullshit is exactly that, but he doesn't say that there is only ONE TRUE OS.

Maybe his comments just hit too close to home?

He's Right: Linux Needs To Be Better

[reallocate]

He's right.

We should be able to plug a mouse into a port on a Linux machine and expect it to work. We shouldn't need to troll the net looking for guidance on how to configure the damn thing. If it needs a driver and it needs to be configured, we deserve a GUI that handles the congifuring. A mouse is a tool that's used to manipulate a GUI; it's lame and lazy to build a driver and then slump off the configuration into an X ASCII config file.

Ditto sound. Linux doesn't do it right. And, what's with that stupid business of distributions shipping muted ALSA drivers? That makes no sense at all. Can anyone even imgaine Microsoft or Apple doing something so gratuitously user hostile as shipping boxes with the sound turned off by default?

Re:He's Right: Linux Needs To Be Better

[reallocate]

>> ... if you're serious about using Linux on the desktop, why would you use an impopular/non-desktop distribution anyway?

Your right about Fedora, It deserves credit for paying attention to real people.

However, I bought a Mac a few weeks back. After close to a decade with Linux -- Slackware, then Fedora after Patrick dropped Gnome -- I was rather weary of all the annoying noise that surrounds Linux: the seemingly not-quite-finished status of a lot of Linux software, perpetual dependency issues, the increasing shrillness and nastiness of some parts of the "community", the arrogance of many developers who treat users like starving dogs raiding the litter of the elite...You get my point. Linux is increasingly held hostage to ideology and I'd rather not be.

Re:Sounds like a hardware problem to me...

[macwhiz]

You couldn't be more wrong about OS X.

As a Mac user, the idea of a computer being unable to play an essentially unlimited number of simultaneous sounds is just foreign to me. I don't even think about it. I expect that I can leave iTunes playing music while playing a game that makes all sorts of noises and still hear alerts from iChat when I get an IM. There's nothing to configure, it just plain works.

The only time I've been amazed by sound on OS X was when I first played with Soundtrack. This program lets you create professional-quality music by mixing up to 99 tracks of layered audio. Not only does it mix them in realtime, but it can apply advanced audio effects in realtime as well.

Not once in the process do you have to care about audio hardware setup. Whatever you have plugged in -- analog speakers, USB speakers, S/PDIF -- the appropriate audio comes out of it.

Meanwhile, you need to spend an afternoon to get open-source UNIX to reliably make a sine-wave beep.

Perhaps you might want to review Apple's overview of OS X 10.4's Core Audio functionality?

Why is this bad?

[strlen]

Seems to be that JWZ's gripe is that Linux requires an one to have at least some skill as a *System Administrator* to well, *administer* a machine. Mice features aren't plug and play (I am assuming he refers to the fact that a scroll mouse still needs to be configured before the scroll wheel must be used -- USB mice *are* essentially plug and play with most all recent versions of Xorg), is that really a bad thing on a *UNIX* machine? Of course you are supposed to configure your system software (and X11 certain counts as such), not the system for you -- on a professionally oriented OS like Linux or BSD?

It is precisely this desire to accomodate a user who is wants to a) admin a full featured UNIX machine b) not have any system administration skill that is has ruined most *all* Linux distributions (note: all Gentoo fanboys replying to this will be deported to Siberia) -- and which is why I use FreeBSD wherever I can (the only reason I wouldn't use FreeBSD is a specific application or hardware support -- such as on amd64 machines, at least for now).

There's also nothing wrong with OS X and before that Irix -- which JWZ *does* seem to be fond off -- for gearing themselves to developers/designers rather than system administrators, that should be encourage -- and users who wish to use a Linux machine *without* being willing to read documentation should be more than encouraged to switch. OS X is an excellent system for that user -- they still have the power of a UNIX shell, etc...

Yet, people will remember how insecure IRIX is out of the box (and to all the IRIX bashers -- it *can* be made secure) -- and especially how expensive and hard to obtain the OS is! -- those are all prices you pay for being able to plug and play *AND* have a "cool" UNIX shell.

So essentially, to JWZ and the rest of the crowd -- the same people for whom garbage like GNOME/KDE/linuxconf was created -- don't let the door kick you on the way out.

[On a side note, what esd (enlightenment sound daemon -- which is still used by GNOME junk afaik) has been doing what jwz was trying to do since *at least* 1999; It amazes me how such talented developers can't do even the simplest administration tasks, I've worked with people holding M.S. and Ph.D degrees in computer science (or math or EE, but you get the idea), who couldn't use vi and used *TELNET OVER WIFI*; I also know *many* graduates of the famed Berkeley EECS program, some of them now in graduate schools, who can't manage to write a makefile or extract a tar file]

This is only a semi-"arrogant UNIXoid rant" -- I don't see anything wrong with OS X (or IRIX), it's just that users *shouldn't* demand mainstream Linux distributions (and BSD flavors) act like it.I also find it entirely acceptable for people to be developers and *not* be system administrators -- indeed, this is how I get jobs :-)

Re:Why is this bad?

[smash]

Why is this bad? Because he's using a desktop machine, and Linux simply doesn't compare for *desktop* use?

Yes, you can configure it that way. Yes, perhaps he should know better.

However, if there's a solution out there that *just works*, and provides basically everything that you get with a Linux desktop and more as far as *desktop* functionality goes - what sane person wouldn't switch, if what they want is a usable desktop?

You shouldn't NEED to have a system administator background in order to control your *desktop* OS, or configure it for basic *desktop* tasks.

I've been a Linux/BSD geek since about 1995, but I'm seriously considering a Mac for exactly the same reasons... also because virtually all Free software runs on a Mac, but it also has decent commercial support.

Like some poster said yesterday - computers are tools. Use the correct tool for the job. BSD/Linux for servers, OS/X for desktop. Don't go trying to nail shit to a wall using a screwdriver...

smash.

Re:Wow only a year or two?

[FooBarWidget]

Two years? How about tomorrow, when FC4 is released with dmix correctly setup out-of-the-box?

And sound mixing has worked for me since 2003. I setup Alsa and sound mixing Just Worked(tm), no messing with dmix or whatever.

Re:Whoop-De-Do

[barc0001]

I don't know that moving the people on the 253 browser projects over to ALSA and telling them to "make sound work" would solve the sound problem

It might, but that's not what I was pointing out. I was pointing out that part of the reason that Linux on the desktop is still sucking in many different ways is that people don't consider it interesting to go off and fix the suckiness, they instead go and start another browser project, or MySQL web interface, or whatever. This is both the strength of open source software, and it's weakness. It's like living in a town where everyone's jobs focused on what they wanted to do instead of what needs doing. Who'd pick up the garbage? Who'd dig the ditches and lay pipe in the rain? Who'd really be a plumber (literally working in other people's excrement) if there wasn't that large hourly rate? Same thing with open source. This is where M$ and others whom you pay money to do have an advantage becuase they can point to the crapwork that needs doing and tell someone working there to fix it or find another job. So it gets fixed.

Thinking of the authors of software as interchangeable is unrealistic

I never said that, or for that matter suggested that they switch projects. I just pointed it out as a glaring weakness in the OSS model. You said it yourself: People work on the projects that interest them.

NOT ready for the Desktop

[Utilizer_NorCal]

Hear, hear. I too have raged incessantly at some of the smug assertions posted by the Linux zealots, having been a proponent of the 'Nix OS for many years now. I am tired of 'bootable' isos that fail to recognize My standard serial mouse or function with older equipment whose BIOS does not support boot-from-cdrom, mandatory 1024x768 setups or those where you can but then you can not even read the Help-getting-started html page completely because the page goes below the bottom of the screen and there is no way to relocate it -AND some of the desktop icons do not even show up (being located on the bottom right of the -I assume- 1024x764 default window positions, and all the distros that will just simply halt when attempting to boot them because *EVERYBODY* has at least 128Megs of RAM. What ever happened to "Linux Allows You To Use Legacy Hardware"? Not to mention "Your Network card is not recognized". It's a bloody 3C509B, for God's sake! And do not even get Me started on those distros that require an apparently broadband connection to do more than just launch the File Manager.

Even despite those limitations, I would have switched to Linux on My main machine -no, make that ANY machine long ago if just two things were functional; a firewall that works like ATGuard or Outpost (NO Connection Unless Specifically Allowed Previously Or Just This Once)... and a decent CAD program. It just kills Me when I hear the stadard cry of "Linux has ports of all the Major Apps!" How about AutoCAD? Or ANYTHING even remotely close. I mean, bloody hell, My preferred low-end/low-resource app is a Visual Basic construct. How difficult could it be to port an older version to Linux?

And please, no comments from the 'What A L00ser, Just Type In (insert insanely long string of utter gobbledygook here) To Config The Firewall'. I was a DOS proponent for many years before I was forced to switch to 'Doze (Linux not being that common in the Corporate environment then). NOBODY wants to type in long combinations of letters, numbers, and switches to do something.

People switched to 'Doze from DOs (or Unix) because it was much easier. I have heard for years how Linux was Ready To Replace Windows. Wake up, people. If you can not even get 'Nix to perform the most basic of functions that 'Doze does automatically (Sound Configuration for one), then Linux/BSD will continue to be relagated to exist as a mere fraction of the marketplace.

To the naysayers

[hkb]

When you've been using UNIX for 20 years, start a family, and actually find other hobbies than sitting in front of the ol' cancer machine, you'll get sick of stuff like:

- learn yet another new config format
- having to constantly recompile a kernel or a kmod
- compile anything

Just to get a camera hooked to your PC or try out some new piece of software.

It just gets really fucking old, eventually.

This is why I see OS X as a bigger threat to Linux than Windows. A lot of Windows users actually LIKE Windows; the way its laid out, the interface design, etc. They usually don't like OS X's interface.

Re:To the naysayers

[smash]

Hell, I've been using Unix/Linux/BSD for only 10 years, don't have a family, and I agree with you 100% :D

If you want to play sysadmin and cut your teeth on the "unix way" go ahead. Its a great learning tool.

As you say, if you've got more important things to do, like oh, lets say *get some work done*, OS/X would definately be the way to go.

If Ubuntu doesn't work as a decent hassle free Desktop for me over the next few months, I'm jumping ship to MacOS myself (for desktop, my servers will remain bsd/linux as appropriate) :)

smash.

Copy & Paste

[blackpaw]

Its a good thing he didn't try to copy and paste any meaningful information between apps (or even on the same app) on Linux - then he'd be really pissed.

you want sound/multimedia in Linux?

[alizard]

In general:

Multimedia installation: Install these applications in this order, using an automated installer such as yum, apt-get (preferably with synaptic GUI), or the urpmi mandrake installer: mplayer + components.

USE AN AUTOMATED INSTALLER, DON'T INSTALL FROM RPMS UNLESS YOU ENJOY DEPENDENCY HELL.

1. mplayer
2. mplayer-plugin
3. skins
4. w32codecs
5. xine
6. xine-lib-devel
7. realplayer
8. flash

Start playing things back and enjoy. For Fedora Core 2, follow the procedure in my article Painless Multimedia For Linux, but use the yum.conf file posted in Build a Linux Appliance, Part 2--The Extras, not the one that's posted as part of the multimedia article. (the multimedia article should be updated to refer people to the "appliance article" URL, I need to contact the editor about this)

corrected URL for "Painless Multimedia for Linux"

[alizard]

it's here.

You can find all my Linux how-to pieces here. They're more or less FC2 specific, but the procedures I should describe should work on just about anything, with minor distro-specific mods (like apt-get instead of yum, for instance)

Re:Zealots chase away yet more developers from Lin

[aristotle-dude]

Re-read my post. Slashdot has sunk to a new low. Now you people don't just not RTFA or RTFS but you don't bother reading posts you are replying to.

I was talking about people ragging on Jamie Zawinski for his decision to switch to the mac.

Does this decision all of a sudden make his past contributions less valuable? Ingrates, the lot of you.

Re:XScreensaver + OS X seems like a good fit....

[Emetophobe]

Nice "pretty" screensavers are nice and all, but it serves little to no purpose, unless you normally sit at your computer and stare at a blank monitor. I think 99% of the time, the screensaver activates because the user walked away from their computer temporarly, or is occupied with something else. So why is important what screensaver you use, since you won't be there to look at it anyway?

Now if people made screensavers that displays useful information, not just graphics, thats a different story. Say on a webserver box, you have a screensaver that shows the server load and various other statistics, that would be cool.

A little history on Linux audio

[IntergalacticWalrus]

At first there was silence.

Then a company called 4Front came along. They wanted to create a common sound API standard for all those UNIX systems that lacked sound support, like Linux, BSD, etc. Hence OSS (Open Sound System) was born. A simple API to cover a simple need: get sound. Cool.

But then they decided to charge people for their drivers. Now who hell would pay for a fucking sound driver? Hence the OSS/Free project was born. Its mission: create free OSS-compatible drivers.

But most OSS/Free drivers sucked. Buggy, lacked basic features, etc. And they still suck as of now. But since sound manufacturers often don't reveal specs, you can't really blame the OSS/Free guys for this.

Also, OSS was nice and all, but lacked advanced audio features needed for pro work, and >2 speaker support requires having multiple sound device nodes, which is an ugly hack. Also, some people didn't like its ioctl() interface, saying a library would be superior. Hence the ALSA project was born. Its mission: create a modern sound API for Linux (yes, only Linux), along with free drivers that don't suck.

But ALSA has many problems. First, its library-based API broke binary and source compatibility many times. Second, it has a powerful infrastructure, capable of doing pro work stuff such as routing sound from a card to another, or use plugins, however ALSA can only be configured to do those things through confusing plaintext config files that are barely documented, and hard to understand. Thirdly, it's a bitch to have working. ALSA is very modularized, which is normally a good thing, however it tends to make it break up more than the plain one module way of OSS.

Oh, and let's not forget that since OSS is an established standard, ALSA needs backwards OSS compatibility. Hence the ALSA people made OSS emulation standard in ALSA. Which brings up the same chicken and egg problem we have seen with OS/2 and its Win 3.1 support: since ALSA has OSS API support, why should we care about the native ALSA API? So, even today, many apps have not taken the plunge to ALSA because OSS "just works". Well, most of the times at least. OSS emulation is not perfect (gasp!).

Oh, another thing: since the ALSA libs are LGPL and have broken backwards compat quite often, closed-source projects tend to forget about bothering to support ALSA, prefering the simple ioctl() API of OSS.

And of course most ALSA drivers are very buggy, for the same reason as the free OSS ones. Which brought up some interesting situations: sometimes when an application supports both the OSS and ALSA APIs, some ALSA drivers actually work better with the OSS API!! Another blow to the native ALSA API.

But one of the biggest problems of ALSA is that its devs refuse to believe that having more than one app playing sound at the same is a major problem, which continues to piss off lots of people to this day. Indeed, very few sound cards can actually play more than one stream directly in hardware, so the mixing must be done in software, preferably at the driver level so that the operation is transparent and (this is very important) latency-less. Windows has done this for a long time now. The ALSA people came up with "dmix", a userspace plugin that does the transparent mixing we needed so much. However, being a userspace plugin, it needs to be configured, so again the ugly ALSA config files are to be used. After being configured, dmix works quite nice, HOWEVER for some reason some apps just crap out when using dmix. Apparently dmix is not transparent enough. It's clear now that software mixing must be done at a lower level, however no work is done on that front. Arguments against it say "this shouldn't be in kernelspace, bla bla". which is funny, because the commercial OSS drivers do support hardware mixing inside their kernel drivers. And it always work fine.

For a long time people have tried to solve the more-than-one-app problem through things called sound servers. The idea is simple enough: have one program open the sound

dumb /.

[bored]

Everyone is saying "he must not be that smart/great" if he can't get a sound card working in Linux.. My take on it is "maybe he is to busy working on useful things to waste his time getting a sound card working in linux". As someone who gets shit done at home and work, I find that you have to focus on the problem and work on it rather than being distracted by everything around you. Spending 6 hours getting proper audio support in linux is 6 hours lost that could have been spent working on your project. Today it's 6 hours on the soundcard tomorrow its three weeks figuring out why the throughput in your application is 1/10th of what it should be (my current problem) because some idiot linux kernel 'hacker' broke part of the disk subsystem in the last 10 revisions of the kernel.

A few years ago I decided to switch my desktop back to windows 2k and exceed, and I'm significantly more productive than I ever was running linux, and wasting 3 hours trying to figure out how to remap my goto-line key in the most recent version of emacs, after the developers decided to use the key for something else.

tedious but not difficult

[alizard]

Not everybody can afford multiple boxes.

This stuff should be part of everybody's default distro installation, and that would solve the problem. However, nobody's stepping forward to buy the licenses.

Another way to do this is put together an automatic download/install package that could be run via point-and-click, say a script telling an automated installer, and that's probably the best answer for the free distros.

The difficult part is finding out what has to be installed, and that literally took me weeks of research. (about 3,IIRC) I did this for publication so the rest of us wouldn't have to.

The tedious part is simply installing a bunch of packages. But... by and large, it's on the order of:
yum install mplayer - y at the prompt
(lather, rinse, repeat until you get to a package that actually has to be manually installed

Probably an hour or two if you've got broadband, and one or two of the packages takes a long time at somewhere around 90% CPU load to fix the dependencies, so go out for coffee when that happens.