Intel Branding Media Center PCs as "Viiv"

ChessKnught writes "Dan Ackerman posted a blog on Blog.CNET.com regarding Intel Developer Forum chatter about Intel's branding of it's Media Center PC. Don McDonald, one of Intel's Digital Home Group Sr. VP's, is talking about 'Viiv', apparently targetting entertainment PC users. It looks like it'll be combining CPU, Intel hardware (TV tuner, remote, and easy setup wireless home networking, etc.) and Windows Media Center Edition."

Comments

Worst Name

[Bronz]

Ever

Re:Worst Name

[YuriGherkin]

Maybe it's the worst but it's not the dumbest like Vista is ...

At least doing a Google search for Viiv will probably get you what you want instead of doing a google search for Vista. Let's see ...

Currently a Google search for Viiv returns the Intel product as the top result while a Google search for vista returns, um, AmeriCorps ... #@*^#!*9 wtf?

From a customer point of view, Viiv is a good choice.

Re:Worst Name

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=windows+vista

You're an idiot.

Re:Worst Name

[YuriGherkin]

you added "windows" to the search term *cough*moron*cough*

http://www.google.com/search?q=vista

Re:Worst Name

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't say? Maybe because that's the name of the product? And that's also what people will search for if Vista isn't the number one result when it's finally released - which it probably will be by the way.

Conclusions: You're an idiot.

Re:Worst Name

[YuriGherkin]

I see through your ruse Mr Gates and it won't work. You're not welcome here and take your stinking OS with you.

Go home! Run along! Shoo!

Re:Worst Name

[Anonymous Coward]

I do think that Windows Vista will be at the top of the results list by the time it's released, but I also agree with the OP that most people are going to search for 'Vista' before adding MS or Windows to the term. Remember, people are lazy.

Re:Worst Name

[Poltras]

When I search something as Windows XP, I actually does Windows+XP, not XP... was that same for Windows 2000 and Windows NT... I know Vista is as common as a spanish noun and won't search for it alone. If people do that, they're not lazy, but stupid. My point: GGGGGGP was funny, not insightful.

Ding ding ding ding!

[greenmars]

Its/It's error in first sentence of Slashdot article? Check!

"Viiv"?

[JanneM]

So some Intel executive's "niece" got to play in marketing for a week, it seems.

Re:"Viiv"?

[Anonymous Coward]

viiv? I prefer emacsscame...

Re:"Viiv"?

[crazyphilman]

No, it's Vivian from the Young Ones. The new Intel logo is going to be four silver stars stapled to a geek's forehead.

Re:"Viiv"?

[Nefarious Wheel]

Anyone else read that as concatenated Roman numerals? cat ("Vi","iV") indicating the number 64? 64 bit architecture there somewhere?

In other news, I'll be discussing the meaning of "I Bury Paul" from Magical Mystery Tour in a future blog entry. (Where's my roll of tinfoil?)

Re:"Viiv"?

[Filip22012005]

I read that as 53...

Re:"Viiv"?

[Filip22012005]

or 8, maybe.

possibly -2 even.

Re:"Viiv"?

[Anonymous Coward]

My guess is they want "viv" as in "viva", pronounced "veev", but they are correcting for the fact that English speakers pronounce the letter I like complete frickin' morons.

Re:"Viiv"?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Romans didn't have negative numbers, you insensitive clod.

Let's see how rusty my Latin is..

Romani numeros negativos non habuerunt, glebula insensilis!

Or maybe it's neuter... In such a case, s/os/a/g.

Re:"Viiv"?

[Gleng]

"Using this computer requires a very special blend of psychology, and extreme violence."

Re:"Viiv"?

[crazyphilman]

...And if the computer discovers that you are doing something less than brilliant, it will scream "YOU DAFT HIPPIE" in a heavy English accent.

It's not a bug, it's a feature!

am i the only one

[AKAJack]

who thinks "viiv" means "64"?

Re:am i the only one

[Bloodrage]

The Inquirer might

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25687

Re:am i the only one

[briancurtin]

It turns out that Intel filed trademarks for "Intel VIIV" and "Intel Inside VIIV" on December 16, 2004, and no one can figure it out. As a whole, VIIV is not a valid roman numeral. It could be considered, however, a rather strange way of writing 64,as in 64-bit, and perhaps this looks better to the marketing types than LXIV. If it's meant to signify "64," then let me be the first to vomit.

taken from http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050128-4562 .html/

Re:am i the only one

[ninjakoala]

Ooooh. I was waiting for a new Web.it-like machine. Can't wait to play those C=64 games in glorious high resolution. Scaled of course.

Re:am i the only one

[Tackhead]

> who thinks "viiv" means "64"?

Because "VIIV0K oportet suppeto" is easier to pronounce than "DCXLK".

Because there are no "bars over characters" in ASCII, and because redundancy filter won't let me type in the other representation for the quantity you get when you multiply DCXL by MXXIV.

And because even if the derivation would get past the filter, there is no. freaking. way. I'm going to try and multiply those two quantities in Roman numerals. Nuh-uh. If they want more than that much RAM, the Linigoths can have the Empire.

Re:am i the only one

[Anonymous Coward]

I think its for "vi 4"

Re:am i the only one

[guard952]

Wouldn't that be LXIV

Re:am i the only one

[shokk]

Yes! In all of the world you were the only one! Thank the stars you have pointed this out for us! Whew, that was close! We almost missed it. 25 years from now people will be thankful that you were here to catch that one. Wow!!

Re:am i the only one

[Brandon K]

Sounds reasonable. It would be interpereted as 'VI' then 'IV', for you slow folks out there who can't stray from the rules a bit.

Re:am i the only one

[nghate]

Viiv... its supposed to be similar to Five (5)...

Re:am i the only one

[Afrosheen]

So, according to an earlier post, VI then IV is interpreted properly as the same number, which is 6 6.

  I imagine for the upgrade they'll be selling the VIIVIV or the IVIVIV or even the VIIVVI.

  666 for the slow ones out there.

Re:am i the only one

[Anonymous Coward]

It looks like 2 Ns...

\/\ /\/

...or part of 2 Ms...

\/| |\/

...or something

Re:am i the only one

[rmcrob]

Viiv
Very Intel Forwards and Backwards

Re:am i the only one

[jimi the hippie]

No, "LXIV" means "64"

Once again ....

[AdamReyher]

... Intel tries to impress us with their labeling. Will this be a known name 15 years from now, or will it fall into anchient history in the near future?

I realize that..

[jvagner]

..technology branding is hard, but .. sheesh, isn't it time Intel fired their marketing division?

VIIV? Viiv? It's like a new STD.

Re:I realize that..

[XFilesFMDS1013]

STD...running Windows MCE...I get it.

Re:I realize that..

[corngrower]

Actually, when you look at the logo, it looks more like V\\V. WTF is that?

Yet another product they'll can in 6 months

[dangermen]

This is YET another product they'll can in 6 months. I use to work for an Intel dealer. It has always been funny watching Intel try to get into markets only to dump product six months later. Let's see: high end switches, SSL accelerators, ISDN routers, NAS appliances, multi-media centers, crap video conferencing, and a whole slew of others.

Intel -NEEDS- to figure out that they really should only do Network Cards, CPUs, and motherboard chipsets. It could be argued that they are even slipping on the latter two.

Either way, I recommend people stay away from them. You'll just be buying something from someone else.

Re:Yet another product they'll can in 6 months

[Anonymous Coward]

Or wait until they get remaindered and buy 2 or 3 as spares for really cheap.

Re:Yet another product they'll can in 6 months

[Grishnakh]

Don't forget crappy digital cameras, crappy digital microscopes, crappy portable music players, and crappy wireless keyboards and mice.

The thing is, many of these "initiatives" are actually where they went out and bought some other company. So they buy another company, thinking they're going to integrate them into their line-up and use that to increase their overall strength and presence in the market, and they put out a few products. But somehow they screw it all up so all the engineers from the acquired company quit and/or the customers desert them, and then they have to sh!tcan the whole thing.

Intel does make some pretty good network cards though.

Only 2 words count that I didn't see in TFA

[Rude Turnip]

And they are: Cable Card. If anyone who wants a serious HTPC is willing to spend the bucks on the gear, then they'll likely be the type of person who wants premium channels and possibly on-demand programming. For a device like those Intel propose with the ViiV chipset, a video-in connection and IR blasters to control the cable box would be unacceptable...the Viiv unit must *be* the cable box and the Cable Card specification allows that. Tivo, for instance, is coming out with a CableCard unit next year that will allow me to get rid of my cable box. With the cable card from my cable company, my HTPC will be able to decode all the premium and HD programming *itself*.

Re:Only 2 words count that I didn't see in TFA

[Anita Coney]

Yeah, IF you can get your cable company to provide such a card. Gook luck trying.

Re:Only 2 words count that I didn't see in TFA

[djohnsto]

All cable companies offering digital cable MUST offer cable cards as of July 1st, 2004. This was by FCC mandate. They don't advertise it, but if your cable company offers digital cable and won't give you a cable card if you ask, report them to the FCC.

Re:Only 2 words count that I didn't see in TFA

[interiot]

But the FCC doesn't mandate anything regarding satellite TV, right? eg. the only way to go for people who want top-quality is the illegal route?

Re:Only 2 words count that I didn't see in TFA

[doormat]

Shuttle already has a working cablecard implementation, they showed it off at Computex. Its chances of getting licensed by CableLabs to hook directly to a computer are about the same as my chance of getting laid anytime soon.

Re:Only 2 words count that I didn't see in TFA

[UndyingShadow]

That sounds totally awesome, but I hate to tell you...It'll never happen. The media industry will fight you tooth and nail, they dont want any of "their" content near a PC.

Re:Only 2 words count that I didn't see in TFA

[Wesley Felter]

Microsoft has a plan for getting CableCard to work with WIndows, but I agree with doormat that CableLabs and its conspirators Motorola and Scientific Atlanta will be very reluctant to let it happen.

Re:Only 2 words count that I didn't see in TFA

[Anita Coney]

Cable companies are also required to offer programming ala carte, i.e., we're not required to take their forced packages. But they don't. Cable companies are to required to provide firewire capable boxes when requested. They don't.

The problem is that the FCC has to enforce such violations, but the FCC simply doesn't care. If you can get the FCC to force your cable company to follow the law. That's great. Unfortunately, the rest of us are not that lucky.

From the article...

[Nos.]

Aimed at entertainment PC users--particularly those who use rack-style home theater systems

Is this a particularaly large market? I'm not a big audiophile, and don't have a huge plasma HD TV. I know some people who do. In all the stores I've been in, I've never seen rack-style home theatre equipment. Now, I'm not in the high end stores, but lets face it, if the big box stores aren't carrying it, there's not a big market for it.

So, if most satellite and other TV providers already have PVRs and some have similar functionality (networkable, can play music, etc), where is the market for this? Is this going to be a high priced toy for those that can afford it?

Of course, there is the possibility that they meant component style, which probably covers a pretty big majority of people who would be interested in something like this.

Re:From the article...

[Anonymous Coward]

Rack-style home theater systems use the standard 19" wide hardware, like any receiver you might see. The stuff doesn't actually rack mount.

Re:From the article...

[callipygian-showsyst]

and don't have a huge plasma HD TV

That's OK! Real videophiles tend to use HD Front Projections (anything from the 720P Sharp 12000s to true 1080i/p Sony Qualias). If a Videophile were to have a plasma it would be a "spare" that's on the wall visible when the screen is up, for bright ambient light viewing.

Plasmas run hot, and have a severe burn-in problem. For that reason, people in-the-know avoid them.

Re:From the article...

[Grishnakh]

Also, don't plasmas lose their brightness very quickly, so that they're pretty much worthless in a few years?

Re:From the article...

[InvalidError]

This is what they call burn-in.

When plasma displays warm up, their materials expand. When they cool, they contract. This gradually weakens the seal between cells and lets the gases leak out.

I wonder how well the first generation of large commercial OLED displays will fare compared to current plasmas.

Re:From the article...

[mgoff]

You are uninformed and/or prejudiced against plasmas.

Plasmas run hot, and have a severe burn-in problem.

Really? Are you saying a projector runs cooler than a plasma with identical display area? Are there any fanless projectors? There are lots of fanless plasmas.

Modern plasmas (i.e. ones made in the past few years) do not have burn-in problems. Temporary image retention (as long as a few hours in extreme cases) can still occur if an owner is careless and leaves a high-contrast, static image on for a few hours. Phosphor halflife is now approximately that of a standard CRT, meaning the lifetimes are similar.

For that reason, people in-the-know avoid them.

Oh please. Go spend some time getting informed over at AVSForum.com. A true videophile will acknowledge that FP and plasma both have a place in a serious home theater setup. But, if you can only pick one, you'd be crazy to go with the FP-- unless you have blackout curtains you can draw every time you want to watch TV.

No it's 75

[goombah99]

VII V = 75

Re:No it's 75

[ciroknight]

And VI IV is 64.

And V IIV is 57.

Who cares what it stands for. It's a retarded name, and hopefully it's just a codename. If they actually do use this ridiculus name, they're gonna have to highlight the letters so people know what Intel's smoking.

Re:No it's 75

[ciroknight]

Whoopse, I hit submit before I realized it. V IIV is technically 53, even though three is usually expressed as III in Roman Numerals.

Re:No it's 75

[GregChant]

Whoopse, I hit submit before I realized it. V IIV is technically 53, even though three is usually expressed as III in Roman Numerals.

Actually, you were right the first time Roman numerals, traditionally, were not directionally dependent. That is why on clocks, you see IIII instead of IV: IV is 6 in Roman.

Some jackass decided to ruin that simplicity recently (last couple hundred years, maybe?), and thus IV is 4.

Re:No it's 75

[It doesn't come easy]

Heh, I think it's the default pin used by the development engineers for the built-in DRM chip ...

5 1 1 5 ...

Re:No it's 75

[superpulpsicle]

Bestbuy employee: Good day sir!

Customer: Hi, Do you know where I can find the VIIV.

Bestbuy employee: Yes sir, just go down the hall, take a left. The bathroom is right around the corner.

Re:No it's 75

[jrockway]

You have obviously never been to Best Buy:

Best Buy Employee: Would you like to get an extended service plan?
Customer: Uh... what? Where can I get a gift card?
Employee: Right over here. We have a special deal today. If you buy an extended service plan on the gift card, we'll automatically deduct the entire balance of the card from the card, just to make it useless but at the same time, sound like a good deal. If I use the word "good" enough and keep talking about extended service plans, your wallet will fall out of your pants and Best Buy will win! Yeah!

This is why I order things online. And any store that calls a bunch of high school students that charge $1000 to format a hard drive the "geek squad" is not worthy of anyone's business.

(Actually, I won a gift card once... but there was nothing in the store worth spending even fake money on. Isn't that kind of depressing!?)

Re:No it's 75

[Prophet of Nixon]

I dunno, Sony's crappy computers are called VAIO, and they seem to sell OK, despite a retarded name, proprietary software, and poor quality.

Re:No it's 75

[kelnos]

It's a retarded name, and hopefully it's just a codename.

Nope, Viiv is the real name. The code name was East Fork.

Re:No it's 75

[Ph33r th3 g(O)at]

Cool -- ran across this thread in m2 and learned something today. Didn't know why IIII. Wonder why not VIIII rather than IX, though. Do you mean that to the Romans, IX would have been 11?

Oh, great, another religious war

[TechnoInfidel]

Just waiting for someone to complain about it not being called Emacsscame.

Re:Oh, great, another religious war

[game kid]

Or Edde. Or Joeeoj. Or Picoocip.

Or Notepaddapeton. Or Worddrow Wilson.

I really weep, though, for the Google fans who may still hold out hope for Scratchpaddaphctarcs. It's quite a mouthful anyway.

Oh great

[ZorbaTHut]

"Hi! I'd like to buy a new computer! What can you recommend?"

"Well, right over here we've got a state-of-the-art Sony Vaio."

"Vae . . . via . . . veiaou?"

"Vaio."

"Viiu?"

"Vaio."

"Um. Well, one of my friends has a media center, and I was thinking of getting one of those too. What can you recommend?"

"Here's a Viiv!"

"Veev? Viv?"

"Viiv."

"You know what? I don't appreciate being made fun of."

"Wait! Don't go! I'm serious!"

Re:Oh great

[forkazoo]

"Where do you keep the computers I can plug into my TV?"

"In the Viiv-section."

"The vivisection?!?!"

Re:Oh great

[smittyoneeach]

"Well, we had them in the 'emacsscame' section, but all of the pizza-faced teenagers thought it was an acne cure, so we had to come up with something shorter."

Re:Oh great

[panaceaa]

"Listen, I just want to hook up my Sony Wega to a computer!%@$!"

"Vega???"

"Vvega$!$!@$"

This is related to a previous article...

[njfuzzy]

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/27/225221 6&tid=118&tid=126&tid=1

So long as its not a trend

[pegasustonans]

This is alright so long as Intel doesn't continue naming chips with random comic book sound effects.

Pretty soon they'd be resorting to names like "Skwoosh" and "Zlurphpt."

Re:So long as its not a trend

[pegasustonans]

Correction: change "chips" to "systems" in my comment above.

Re:So long as its not a trend

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly, this is not a comic book sound, but rather an alternate spelling of vi 4. whats next? emacsxxii?

Obligatory; wish I could mod article flamebait

[RealisticCanadian]

I don't care. I refuse to support Intel or Microsoft. Neither offers me any of the 'features' I want, but they want me to pay them so they can own my data.

Hence your advertisements mean nothing to me.

Now if only I could mod this article as flamebait.

This is of course...

[slapout]

...part of their marketing agreement with Microsoft. The one in which both companies are suppose to use names that have no meaning whatsoever to the general consumer. (Run Vista on your Viiv?)

(Well, it's either that, or they've got a side bet about who can come up with the worst name...)

Re:This is of course...

[twelveinchbrain]

The one in which both companies are suppose to use names that have no meaning whatsoever to the general consumer. (Run Vista on your Viiv?)

I really hope English isn't your first language, because "vista" is a real word.

Re:This is of course...

[Anonymous Coward]

Merriam-Webster? I have a better source.

Clearly, this is an assault on Romance langauges by the Wintel crew! First, they try and steal "vista", and now, they come out with this thing that kinda looks like "vive" but isn't quite.

What's next? Windows Cabrón? That would probably be more appropriate.

Re:This is of course...

[slapout]

I know it's a real word. My point was (and maybe I wasn't clear) is that neither word is related to computers.

Re:This is of course...

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it just me, or has anybody else noticed that American dictionaries never want to cite Spanish in their etymologies?

The link you give says the word came from Italian. And it is an Italian word, among other things. But, well, I can't speak for the other side of the Atlantic, but in American usage, this word obviously came from contact with (and conquest of) Spanish-speaking people.

I've noticed this a lot. American dictionaries will gladly say that a word was imported from French or Italian, or even directly imported from Latin, but almost never Spanish. For example, Webster's definition of hacienda says it comes from the Latin gerund facienda. That's technically true. But based only on that information, how do you explain the loss of the initial F sound, a uniquely Spanish phenomenon? And that, its definition in English corresponds to a meaning that isn't reflected in the original Latin, but happens to parallel Spanish?

Is it that, to our collective gringo mind, we don't want to admit that we borrow words from "those people?"

Kind of like how all those border states who seized their territory from unjustified wars with Mexico are now complaining that they can't keep the Mexicans out of... Mexico. Isn't that some kind of irony?

Or it's from the Chicago song.

[goombah99]

take all overlapping pairs of consecutive digits:

VI II IV

that's 6 2 4 or in leet speak: "six to four"

Now if you assume the two II in the middle were crossed for multiplication then that's 5x5 = 25

Hence we arrive at the Chicago song:

Twenty Five or Six to four

Re:Or it's from the Chicago song.

[hkroger]

Jesus christ, what do you do all day long???

Re:Or it's from the Chicago song.

[seanmeister]

... and in the film Footloose, Chicago is where Kevin Bacon's character moved from.

KEVIN BACON - I WIN!!!

Re:Or it's from the Chicago song.

[Overzeetop]

Oh, man, this has gone way too far. *head in hands*

Re:Or it's from the Chicago song.

[themoodykid]

He's a numerologist.

Re:Or it's from the Chicago song.

[chrish]

You win at the Internet... well done!

Re:Or it's from the Chicago song.

[Anonymous Coward]

I love your logic Mr. Farrakhan!!

Re:Or it's from the Chicago song.

[seanmeister]

yeah... the guy at the end was tough to beat ;)

Third choice.

[bombshelter13]

So, when presented with the options of choosing a name for their new product that is either A) meaningless but pronouncable and fairly easy to remember phonetically (i.e. Centrinu, Celeron) or B) actually has some vague correlation to what the technology is about (HyperThreading, EM64T), they choose to do neither, settling on one that is neither catchy nor related to what the product actually does.
 
Nice job, boys.

Re:Third choice.

[VoidWraith]

Celeron is almost certainly related to the Latin stem having to do with speed: Celer. That makes perfect sense from a marketing perspective, look, its fast (but doesn't crunch as well... we'll gloss that over). Centrino I couldn't tell you, but almost certainly stems in something. Pentium, for those who didn't know, comes from Latin 5, since it followed the 486. Why the Pentium 3 wasn't the Septium is beyond me, I think that sounds catchier =P

Re:Third choice.

[DeafByBeheading]

If they were going for catchy, they should've called the Pentium II the Sexium...

Re:Third choice.

[Halfbaked Plan]

Pentium III would have been the Octium, since the Pentium Pro was the Hexium.

Re:Third choice.

[Nefarious Wheel]

And of course they couldn't have called it the 586, because they added 100 to 486 and got 585.99912134 which marketing couldn't brand.

Ah yes, "Viiv"

[mcc]

The brilliant name devised by Intel's Committee To Come Up With A Name Dumber Than "Itanium".

Re:Ah yes, "Viiv"

[zippthorne]

Ah, I see operation name things with overly descriptive names is a success!

Re:Ah yes, "Viiv"

[Anonymous Coward]

And I thought they wouldn't get much worse after they named one after celery (well, you certainly don't think of "accelerate" when you think of a Celeron :P given that they're worthless pieces of crap unless you can overclock the hell out of 'em for cheap).

Boy was I wrong...

More articles here....

[Hack Jandy]

These were published yesterday:

http://anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=250 9
http://anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=251 0


HJ

upgrading..

[Keruo]

is this really suitable naming scheme?
add one, and you get:
  Intel Inside VIIVI

Re:upgrading..

[Anonymous Coward]

torrent?

Re:upgrading..

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd buy THAT upgrade. Though I suspect that DRM would ruin things.

Just call it what it is

[ThatGeek]

What's with the need to come up with complex names that don't describe the product? Why not call it an "Intel Entertainment Center" or "Intel Home Theater"?

How many geeks are going to be able to explain to their spouses why they need to shell out lots of hard earned money for a "viiv"?

Re:Just call it what it is

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. It's a media system so call it that. I think they're following the standards set by the drug industry. Bah.

--
http://stoopidme.org/
Bringing the world together through our common bond: our stupidity

Re:Just call it what it is

[Anonymous Coward]

The geeks i know can manage to say "Viiv. Its like an Intel Entertainment Center or Intel Home Theater."

Do I just talk to a different class of geeks?

Viiv

[CSHARP123]

It looks like it'll be combining CPU, Intel hardware (TV tuner, remote, and easy setup wireless home networking, etc.) and Windows Media Center Edition.

Why just Windows media center? When they can use Myth TV on Linux. Lot of you already know, mythtv has better features than Media center. With a corporation behind it, it can become much better.

Re:Viiv

[GaryPatterson]

These days it's all about controlling content once it leaves your servers.

I don't know MythTV well, but I'll hazard a guess that it's not big on DRM. If that's the case, then Windows Media Centre will always have better corporate backing.

I actually think Sun's push for an 'open' DRM scheme will help, but then I'm evil like that.

Re:Viiv

[rogabean]

Don't get me wrong... I love my MythTV box, but in terms of features Windows Media Center has it beat in a lot of areas. MythTV on the other hand is far better in the actual TV dept.

And the real closer on this is Windows Media Center is bound to have a higher overall WAF (Wife Approval Factor), luckily the other half is a geek so this wasn't an issue for me.

Add in that the top content companies are all about DRM... MythTV wasn't happening on ViiV.

Re:Viiv

[Grishnakh]

Because a lot of people at Intel can't fathom the idea of a computer without Windows on it. Also, Intel believes very strongly in the whole "trusted computing" thing, and probably wants to kowtow to the media companies.

Re:Viiv

[saintlupus]

And the real closer on this is Windows Media Center is bound to have a higher overall WAF (Wife Approval Factor), luckily the other half is a geek so this wasn't an issue for me.

1) Put the computer inside of the entertainment center, where the wife can't see the case or hear the fans.

2) Buy an ATI Remote Wonder. Program an appropriate xmodmap for Myth. I can send you mine, if you like.

3) Run the cord for the ATI receiver up the back of the unit and put it near the TV.

WAF. Solved.

Well, it worked for me, anyway.

--saint

Re:Viiv

[rogabean]

1. check
2. use the hauppauge remote.. works great
3. check

my WAF approval is high. It was a general observation.

Although I will admit I can be a bit jealous of a few of MCE's features myself now and then. Online Spotlight is nice.

MythTV: functional
MCE: polished

Hands down functional wins for me, but not everyone feels that way.

Re:Viiv

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of gibberish are you spewing. A lot of people at Intel can fathom computers without Windows. Most of them use Linux everyday at work and many of them use it at home as well.

Why would you point to such a FUD, they're so stupid type of excuse when there's fairly obvious reasons already, and they all have to do with the whole concept of selling a platform.

A) Software Support - If MS is providing the software for a platform, MS is the on responsible for supporting it. If Intel chooses to use MythTV on Linux, they're going to be the one's supporting it. There's already documented cases of people calling an Intel microprocessor design site for software support because they saw the Intel Inside logo on the computer (they were helped by the way) and thought, hey I'll just call the local Intel. Bundling with Windows gives the lass savy user somewhere obvious to relate to, they're not guarenteed to understand how to find MythTV, but most of them can find MS, and if Intel is the only branding on the machine, who do you think they're going to turn to.

B) Customer acceptance. This is somewhat related, but think of the market for these kind of products, what's average consumer comfortable with. That's right it's Windows, so that's what's easier to sell. You're more than welcome to build a similar system and put MythTV on it, but don't expect average consumers to learn something new because you think it's better. Windows MCE is a fine product and works quite well, well enough for Joe Schmoe.

Between having to support the software and catering the the mass market, why would they go with MythTV again, besides your little holy war about which is better?

I know MCE is a fine product, and I'm sure MythTV is too (I haven't used it myself, but my friend does, who BTW works for Intel). They're both stable and functional, and hence both valid choices.

Re:Viiv

[Grishnakh]

Yes, I know many people at Intel use Linux at work, and at home too. But it's most definitely a small minority. The IT department is very much centered on Windows (but not the engineering computing which is mostly unix, but they're much smaller than the main IT dept). The management doesn't know or care that much for Linux though.

As for your "who's the customer going to call" argument, it's pretty silly. Intel isn't going to sell Intel-branded Viiv machines, any more than they sell Intel Centrino laptops. They're going to provide "Viiv" as a component to system builders like HP and Dell, who will then sell complete systems to end-users. Who are the users going to turn to? The brand name on their machine: Dell, HP, etc.

Customer Acceptance: I guess TiVo is really hurting because it doesn't use Windows, right? No, I guess not. The overall product is what's important to consumers, not what OS it uses internally (which shouldn't be obvious anyway on a media center computer--if you have to use a mouse and open and close windows on a media center computer, it's seriously flawed).

Why MythTV or any other open-source product? Simple: control. By choosing only Windows MCE, they've shackled themselves to Microsoft. If they want something to be done differently, too bad; they only get the OS and software the way MS wants it. Perhaps they'd like a new feature; it'll only happen if MS wants to play along. With open-source software, Intel could implement this product any way they wish. Furthermore, their downstream partners (Dell, HP, etc. who build and sell the final boxes) could make their own changes to differentiate their products. As someone who is currently working with a product like this, this is extremely attractive to customers. What's more, they don't have to have all the Microsoft branding and logos all over. If I were Dell, why would I be interested in building an Intel Viiv system if it's going to look and function exactly like HP's version? And why would I want it to be filled with Microsoft branding, when I could have my own Dell branding there instead? I'd rather have a software product from Intel that I'm able to customize for my own needs and my particular hardware implementation, and ship that to customers.

The biggest problem with MythTV/Linux is that it doesn't support DRM. Entertainment companies don't like that, and it seems that Intel wants to pander to them, or maybe they think this box will be some sort of gateway to pay-per-view streamed DRMed content, instead of a glorified TiVo.

The next Centrino

[wiredlogic]

This is another ploy by their marketing department to lock out their chipset competitors. Notably Via. This will be the same for the A/V market.

By marketing the "Centrino" brand instead of "Pentium M" thay created demand among the clueless public and ensured vendor lock-in for their chipsets than would not otherwise be the case. The consumer doesn't know that a Pentium M is but they do know that their next notebook has got to be a "Centrino" because of blitz advertising. The notebook manufacturers have no choice but to design in more Intel parts if they want to meet "demand".

This also helped in the demise of Transmeta even though the Efficeon had real promise. The Sharp Muramasa is the only Efficeon notebook to date and is only available through importers in the US.

Re:The next Centrino

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the Sharp PC-MM20 uses an Efficeon processor. Nice laptop, very small. A bit on the slow side, but I can live with that. It's only a laptop for when I'm on work trips/vacation.

Re:The next Centrino

[wfberg]

Which brand of laptop do you think people buy? "Centrino"? Or "Dell"? Even "Centrino" is too much under-the-hood. Too most people, if centrino means anything at all, it just means "wireless network".

At the moment, the only mediacenter brand with any clout in the market is the Windows XP MediaCenter Edition brand (in fact, before MCE, did you call it a mediacenter? Or a pc-with-tuner-and-encoder-decoder? Or a PVR/PVR-PC? Microsoft marketing now ensures slashdot headlines with "Media Center" rather than any of those descriptive terms).

So, intel spending bucks on branding in the media center arena is only a counterweight to microsoft branding. In the end people will be faced with the choice between different OEM vendors anyway; Dell, Apple (some day soon now, surely), HP, and somethingelse (e.g. Walmart/Medion/white-label, some linuxy thingamajig, Kiss/Cisco). something like "VIIV" will only mean something to some nerdy types, who will use it as a benchmark ("you should get one with a VIIV chipset or something better inside, like a pinnacle pvrdrr234512").

Re:The next Centrino

[milimetric]

okay, I hate that argument. The Transmetta was a shitty chip. It ran at 1.0 Ghz tops and on a tiny little 10 inch laptop could only dish out like 3 hours of battery life. I can get 5 hours on my 15.4 inch dell with a 1.8 Ghz Pentium M that kicks the shit out of the Transmetta in any benchmark. Why are people still talking about the Transmetta? It died? GOOD. It was SHITTY. The Pentium M is an awesome chip and maybe it can be improved upon but that advertisement that you bash has led a revolution in the computer industry with people caring about low powered chips and buying notebooks and advancements in battery life and small hard drives, portable devices, etc.

Re:The next Centrino

[Anonymous Coward]

Centrino's success isn't because they fooled end users into thinking they need it. It's successful because they got all the vendors to ship it. Look around. You'll find it hard to get a laptop from a major vendor that isn't Centrino. Not because customers ask for it. Simply because few competitors exist in the market.

Occasionally you'll see an AMD64 laptop, but that's rare.

Dell, Gateway, IBM, Sony, Toshiba... They all sell 100% centrino product lines, AFAIK. Presumably, soon Apple will join in. It's a different kind of vendor lock-in. It's done at the OEM level, with absolutely no consumer input in the process.

Now, Pentium-M is a good processor, and as a wireless chip I don't mind IPW. (There are, after all, free drivers for both of these features.) But if Intel tries to lock-in some DRM multi-media in a "Centrinoesque" style, that might be upsetting to say the least.

why not...

[abes]

add a couple features, perhaps a family movie or two, and call it the Aristrocrats?

No, I won't expand on what I mean.

DRM

[Vorondil28]

It looks like it'll be combining CPU, Intel hardware (TV tuner, remote, and easy setup wireless home networking, etc.) and Windows Media Center Edition."

Not to mention DRM'd to hell?

Re:DRM

[quentin_quayle]

Vorondil28: "Not to mention DRM'd to hell?"

Affirmative.

This is what was formerly (or internally, whatever) called "East Fork". The Inquirer explained how everything that goes thru it gets converted to Windows Media with DRM.

So you're better off building your own - except some new-generation discs won't play, or will get downgraded, in anything that lacks this sort of anti-user tech.

Re:DRM

[plasmacutter]

I really wish they WOULD come up with unbreakable DRM just to piss the public off. Sure everyone would suffer for a few years, but it would end up eventually with proper alleviation from capital hill.

That said.. would such a system not immediately prompt a thorough and proper crack of windows media DRM?

Re:DRM

[Anonymous Coward]

That said.. would such a system not immediately prompt a thorough and proper crack of windows media DRM?

Not if nobody buys it. Which is basically why nobody bothers to crack windows media DRM now.

Speaking of brilliant names...

[Kozar_The_Malignant]

Maybe it will run "Bob".

I guess it's pronounced like Vive...

[danielDamage]

Which sounds a little painful to my ears. For instance, to use it in a sentence: "Can we re-viiv our ailing business model?"

Re:I guess it's pronounced like Vive...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nahh... it's got to be "Vyv".

As in: "Yes, we have a video card! If one more person asks us if we have a video card, I'm going to smash their head right through this copy of Vista!"

I think the world needs

[iminplaya]

a Geneva Naming Convention. We must put an end to these atrocities. Viiv...Good grief!

It's probably just a typo....

[Caspian]

...and they actually named it vivi.

Re:It's probably just a typo....

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah - it was really VIVIVI (666 - The number of the Intel beast)

sounds like a DRM match made in hell

[enrico_suave]

intel's trusted computing meets MCE 2005's DRM'd media files.

My GOD!

[Bobzibub]

Could this indeed be true?

That would be LXIV

[RatBastard]

Crap here for the empty reply filter.

It is pronounced...

[Poromenos1]

"vive", as in "five".

Re:It is pronounced...

[JohnsonWax]

So why the fuck isn't it spelled 'vive'.

Naming products things that consumers feel self-conscious trying to pronounce correctly tends to cause them to a) not talk about them, b) come up with some other name for your product that you have no control over.

Re:It is pronounced...

[pglee]

that might cause a problem for francophones/francophiles

Is it just me

[melted]

Or somebody else's brain subconsciously associates "VIIV" with virii?

Re:Is it just me

[Taladar]

I associate it more with HIV. So VIIV would be the vi Immunodeficiency Virus. I guess the vi users will have to use emacs too if Intel manages to make this a success.

Re:Is it just me

[Jerf]

No, I got the same out of it.

I think they were going for the "vivere" root, life, involved in words like "vivacious" and "vitality", but given the computer connections "virus" does tend to come out too.

Trying to peice together syllables to indirectly invoke things is a dangerous game. (Doesn't seem to stop a lot of big companies, though.)

Re:Is it just me

[Anonymous Coward]

Vitality comes from vita, noun, not vivere, verb. Other than that I agree with you.

They probably wanted the pure i sound and not the dipthong that comes out of English speakers when they speak the letter i. So they put two Is there.

They probably could have done better. Even introducing it as "ViV (pronounced 'veev')" would have been clearer. Or maybe some sort of macron or accent mark in the logo.

Re:Ding ding ding ding!

[shokk]

I don't get it. How could the FP to mention the bad editorial work on Slashdot be redundant?

Re:Ding ding ding ding!

[Wavicle]

How could the FP to mention the bad editorial work on Slashdot be redundant?

You must be new here...

Re:Ding ding ding ding!

[shokk]

No, I just had to get the words "bad editorial work" in there somehow. I wanted to make sure everyone knew about the "bad editorial work." Because otherwise, no one might know about the "bad editorial work" here at Slashdot. "Bad editorial work?" Good thing it wasn't a redundant article.

thank god

[earlums25]

thank god, now i'll have something to use with my xbox 360!!

V//V is Verify on both ends of the content stream.

[pallmall1]

Verifiy at the source, stream to end hardware as symbolized by the double slash -- //, and then Verifiy again at the user's hardware.

This way, they can double-Vuck you.

What's a "virii"?

[Anonymous Coward]

YOU CAN'T APPLY LATIN RULES TO A GERMANIC LANGUAGE, TOOL.

Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted!
Reason: Don't use so many caps. It's like YELLING.

Re:What's a "virii"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure you can, if you like sounding like an idiot.

Re:What's a "virii"?

[swordgeek]

Dammit, wish I still had some moderator points to give out.

"virii" bugs the shit out of me. Linguistic inexactitude at its worst.

Re:What's a "virii"?

[Anonymous Coward]

A better point is that those aren't the Latin rules.

The plural of virus is virus. Virus is a 4th declension noun IIRC.

That means, IIRC, the declensions are:

singular: virus, virus, viru, virum, viru
plural: virus, viruum, viribus, virus, viribus

The closest thing to "virii" in Latin would be "viri", which means "men". As in the English word "virile".

The only only things in Latin whose plurals end in -ii are second declension nouns whose nominative singulars end in -ius. Like Pompeii. That's the plural of Pompeius. Or... Well it's been awhile since I studied Latin, so I can't think of any more examples. I can tell you all about Spanish though. :P

By the way, in Latin, ii is not pronounced as a single "i" sound. The first I is a consonant (which in more modern alphabets would get written as a J or a Y), the second is a vowel (which still corresponds to the letter I). That's why for example, in many languages the name Pompeii got changed to either Pompeyi (or Pompeya in Spanish) or Pompeji (in some of the eastern european languages where they still pronounce the letter J as originally intended, and not the Enlish-French-like "gi" sound or the Spanish h-like thing for example)

In Soviet Russia...

[Anonymous Coward]

(Subject of title) (verb of title in present tense) YOU!

VIIV?

[Anonymous Coward]

(o_O)

Re:VIIV?

[babyblink]

Pheeew Pheeew!

Re:Viiv?

[Madoc Owain]

An appropriate comment:

"Vivian!! Eat the telly!!"

Re:Viiv?

[th77]

YES WE'VE GOT A BLOODY VIDEO!!!

I think that's the only The Young Ones I've seen.

Trademarks?

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

I think that the marketing gurus are just running out of names that are not trademarked. It's the same with drugs and software. Soon, things will have to be named random strings so as not to conflick with some existing trademark.

Re:Trademarks?

[WinterSolstice]

Wow! My %43@#0=_W223qk@34a!A ver 2.0 is SO much cooler than yours!

-WS

Re:Trademarks?

[crazyphilman]

uhhhhh..... FARM FRESH MILK!

Have you been receiving empty packages?

FARM FRESH! AAAAGH... MILK! FARMFRESHMILK!

Re:Trademarks?

[wasted time]

Dear Saeed al-Sahaf,

It has been brought to our attention that you have made personal gains, in the form of mod points, through the use of the word "conflick." We are writing you today to inform you that the word "conflick" is a registered trademark of Prison Porn Productions Company, a subsidiary of Prison Films Inc. Under current US trademark laws, we reserve all rights to the use of the word "conflick" and hereby request that you cease using our trademark in public and in private. Failure to cease infringing on our trademark may lead to civil and/or criminal prosecution with penalties resulting in fines and/or "receiving" roles in one of our films.

We hope that you understand our "position" in this matter and will thus cease infringement immediately. Rest assured that we have individuals standing at attention who are anxious to see this through your end.

Ben Dover
PPPC/PFI

Re:Trademarks?

[ncc74656]

Wow! My %43@#0=_W223qk@34a!A ver 2.0 is SO much cooler than yours!

That's %43@#0=_W223qk@34a!A® to you, not %43@#0=_W223qk@34a!A. Thanks for your attention.

Wile E. Coyote III
Sr. VP of Plungers and Duct Tape
Acme Widget Co., Inc.
Makers of the %43@#0=_W223qk@34a!A® and other fine products for capturing high-velocity highway-running avians

Re:Ding ding ding ding!

[richdun]

Geez, someone mod parent Redundant... great-grandparent already mentioned the "bad editorial work".

Incest couple - Intel & Microsoft

[zymano]

Can either of these guys make anything without the others help ?

Ahh ... I was looking for this link

[A nonymous Coward]

I knew they had registered VIIV before and everyone was speculating on what it meant. Glad you found it for me!

Re:Ahh ... I was looking for this link

[Taladar]

You know if you look at it in all uppercase like that it looks a lot like HIV.

Microsoft dependency...

[vhogemann]

Why depend on Microsoft to power products like this? As good as the hardware may be, if Intel don't control the OS, they don't control the final product.

Wouldn't make more sense to power it with MithTV, wich they can hack as they please and brand as a Intel only product?

Why depend on Microsoft? Hell, what's wrong with you Intel, Microsoft used to depend on you!

At last, a product named after...

[podperson]

Vyvyan from The Young Ones

It will still suck.

[Scott Byer]

It will still not do 1080i out easily (yes, I've made mine - not easy).

It will still come with a crappy remote (has anybody seen a decent MCE remote?).

It will still likely have cooling problems (have you seen what HP's Dec z540 spacing requirements are? I don't have a room for it to live by itself in - it'll go in with the other stack components, which can all deal with being in a well-ventilated but close-quarters cabinet).

But, most of all, while the hardware has shortcomings, it's the software that's a complete disaster. I shouldn't have to buy a 3rd party DVD software player just to get decent upsampling (or decent performance at all for that matter). A 10 foot interface should be more complete - I shouldn't have to pull out the keyboard and squint every time the stupid system forgets to keep outputting 5.1 or set some other necessary preference. I shouldn't have to do BIOS updates and 3 driver updates just to record TV to DVD (still doesn't work). The system shouldn't wake itself up 5 minutes after being put in standby every time. It shouldn't have come with the typical load of HP shovelware - bad virus scanner, other junk.

Intel can call it what they like, but the part that really needs to be fixed isn't under their control.

More like Vyv, from The Young Ones

[cblguy]

I keep thinking of Vyvyan from The Young Ones. Anarcharic and a bit nuts. :-) And he developed the magic cure... for those people who aren't axe weilding homicidal maniacs...

Now if only it was named Vulv

[Pasajero]

Then it might get interesting...

Why it won't suck!

[swordgeek]

Well actually, it will suck. But only for the first three years. Here's what I predict:

1) Intel sleeps with MS to develop a HTPC standard. They take over the market.
2) Everyone else tries to get in on the action. Lawsuits abound.
3) Other, genuinely better alternatives will become available, some of them open-source. Not all of them will be compatable.
4) MS, who has taken over the project from Intel in the interim, will drag their heels and still produce a sub-par product--but the functionality from the better products will eventually make their way down to the commercial items.

Eventually, we'll have good HTPCs. Not as fast as we'd like and not as good as we want, but they'll be better than if Intel hadn't done this.

Intel seem to like the ?II? names

[scottfk]

PIIX... VIIV...

So maybe "II" means "Intel Inside," but what about P, X, V and, er that other V?

Re:Intel seem to like the ?II? names

[plasmacutter]

I think V is the beginning letter of a word in an obscure language which means "to screw the average consumer with drm and platform lockin"

VIIV==DRM according to the Inquirer

[yeremein]

Intel logo of DRM Forking plan emerges

In other news

[Anonymous Coward]

AMD is announcing a competing product named Emacsscame.

Sounds similar to "veevee".

[CyricZ]

A quick glance and an attempt at pronunciation may result in it sounding much like "veevee". "Veevee" is a common slang term for "vagina" in many parts of the world.

Ever used Media Center?

[everphilski]

Media Center is a mature, stable product. With support options. MythTV is none of the above. Media Center makes sense from a commercial point of view.

-everphilski-

for once they were honest with a product name

[Anonymous Coward]

VIIV
Vauge is in vouge

Viiv?

[eno2001]

All I can think of is Vivian from that classic 80s series "The Young Ones" and Rick yammering on saying, "Have we got a video"? when they had a video. How many 80s kids here remember that?

One of their Unix people...

[suitepotato]

...had a psycho moment in the shower one morning, and doodled "Vi" in the steamed up mirror backwards. Good thing it wasn't Emacs or their next project could have been named something like "scame" which we'd all predictably call "scam-e".

Link to VIIV logo image

[Pasajero]

Here's a link to the full color VIIV logo.

Apparently not, but you're wrong.

[8086ed]

That's all.

ViiV.... because 'VAIO' worked out so well....

[rbanzai]

Typical marketing stupidity.

Remember, Remember...

[montale127]

... the VIIV of November

Yes, but

[Anonymous Coward]

Will it run OSX?

falling further behind the times

[senatorpjt]

WWIV is still around?

NIN, imo

[Kamiza Ikioi]

Could be HIV, if the middle bar in the H fell down /.

Or, someone who likes the Vive shampoo. Pronouced the same, I think.

Or, VI = 6, IV = backwards 6 = 9, == 69.

Could be an acronym. "Vote Independant In Venezuela". It's a Pat Robertson conspiracy!

But, my money is on a NIN fan in marketting. It's close to NIN, without the middle I.

What if they call it VIXI?

[brainnolo]

It would be way more appropriate for THAT device.

VIXI is the latin for "i lived" so "i'm dead".

Re:why not...NSFW

[Anonymous Coward]

I will.

NSFW or maybe home either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Aristocrats

check out the South Park movie link at the bottom in the external links section.

This is cool...

[el_womble]

... now everytime INTeL announce something Mac Zealots get to say something less than interesting and completely speculative... so here goes :)

Clearly this is the precurser to Apple bringing out a set-top box to access their new iMovie Video store. The Apple Viiv, in combination with the iViiv will allow subscribers to download 'HD Quality' movies on both their TV and the on the move. Priced at just under the national debt of Cambodia, this product is expected to appeal to New Yorkers, who will where the white rimmed glasses (that act as the screen) with pride as they walk under trucks in and around Manhatten.

In other news, the FDA are concerned that obsessive watching of movies on the glasses may cause 'square eyes' a deadly virus originally thought to have been imported by Chinese immigrants. The MPAA have kindly asked them to keep their noses out, as they are "raking it in".

Re:No it's 8

[MS]

Roman numbers are added, not appended, and if one or more symbols with a lower value precede another with a higer value, they are subtracted, therefore:

V + IIV = 5 + 3 = 8

Yes, there are many ways to write the same number: VIIII is equivalent to IX, or XXXXX is equivalent to L

Maybe they intend this to be the Octium [x886] (following Pentium [x586], Sexium [x686] and Heptium [x786]), and as this processor is meant for entertainment, games, fun etc., they made a joke of its name also.

:-)

Intel said they'll use Linux to reduce costs.

[delire]

Apparently..

Charles Chou, San Francisco; Jessie Shen, DigiTimes.com [Thursday 25 August 2005]

According to unspecified Taiwan-based PC makers, Intel is currently working with software developers to design middleware application software for the Linux operating system (OS) for its Viiv (rhymes with five) consumer PC platform to reduce the cost and selling price of the PCs.

Viiv-based PCs will initially be based on the Microsoft Window Media Center OS, which should drive up the costs, as a special OS authorization is needed. Currently, quotes for Media Center PCs are more than US$1,200, compared to US$400-500 for average PCs, the makers explained.

From here.

viiv ?

[l3v1]

Maybe ViiV should be read like V2V (as in "v" "to" "v") for which I could make up any number of combinations with words starting with "v". Other than then, it look quite stupid.
 

Not 57.

[RoverDaddy]

V IIV is 53. Remember "I before V except after C". Didn't you learn anything in Latin school?

Like Commodore 64?

[RoverDaddy]

Now I know this one will be a winner.

The first question in my mind is...

[Robotech_Master]

...would you display neen on VIIV?

The number of the beast...

[Imposter_of_myself]

If you add one "i" or use the way they pronounce it, then you have the "revised" version of the beast "616"* not "666" - GRANTED, this should be written DCXVI, but if written with "just" numerals, it would be "VI I VI" *recently revised "according" to "older documents", see "Number of the Beast" on wikipedia

has anyone else noticed

[mapmaker]

that these days Intel develops fewer and fewer actual products but more and more brands?

Viri?

[Anonymous Coward]

Am I the only one who instantly though "viri"?

The marketing division should be fired.

XBMC

[adnausium]

give me xbox media center any day of the week over craptastic M$ MCE any day

Re:Ding ding ding ding!

[Poltras]

Geez, someone mod parent Redundant... he mentioned that whose must not be written of after everyone wrote it.

Viiv?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Get the door, Neil!"

More great Intel marketing

[Thornkin]

I think Intel should get the engineers out of their marketing department. I mean, look at some of the winners they've had recently:

HT Technology
EM64T
SSE/2/3
MMX

and now VIIV. WTF?

Are consumers really supposed to get something out of these? At least Centrino was capable of being pronounced.