Prototype Rollable Paper-like Display Ready Early

freitasm writes "A few months ago Philips promised a rollable, paper-like display in two years, but it only took them a few months to have a prototype ready. From the article: 'The Readius is the world's first prototype of a functional electronic-document reader that can unroll its display to a scale larger than the device itself. With four gray levels, the monochrome, 5-inch QVGA (320 pixels x 240 pixels) display provides paper-like viewing with a high contrast ratio. Once the user has finished reading, the display can be rolled back into the pocket-size (100 mm x 60 mm x 20 mm) device.'"

Comments

need higher resolution and more gray level

[yagu]

From the article: With four gray levels, the monochrome, 5-inch QVGA (320 pixels x 240 pixels) display provides paper-like viewing comfort with a high contrast ratio for reading-intensive applications, including text, graphics, and electronic maps.

This is the type of screen resolution for my Digital Reader, the resolution that made me send it back the day I got it. There's nothing paper-like about reading dot-matrix like resolutions. The eye doesn't adapt but instead becomes increasingly fatigued.

This technology may have some application for computer-like applications. I was hoping for e-books. This screen resolution won't cut that....

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[YrWrstNtmr]

Just like generation 1 computer screens...useless resolution, any color you wanted as long as it was amber or green. Look what they've evolved into.

Give it time. This is "the world's first prototype".

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[OzRoy]

It's a prototype. What do you want? It's not ready for prime time!

Do you really think they would say "paper-like display in two years" and then throw something out in two months, and put it on the market? It will still be two years before something like this hits the shops.

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[chrisflesner]

It's a prototype man. Give it a couple of generations, the resolution will get better.

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[Thomas Charron]

Yea, I was really excited until I noticed the resolution.

Paper like comfort *IF* the text was PRINTED using a dot matrix printer.. ;-)

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[mughi]

This is the type of screen resolution for my Digital Reader, the resolution that made me send it back the day I got it. There's nothing paper-like about reading dot-matrix like resolutions. The eye doesn't adapt but instead becomes increasingly fatigued.

This technology may have some application for computer-like applications. I was hoping for e-books. This screen resolution won't cut that....

It all depends on the specifics of the device. I'ved used a Handspring Prism with a resolution of only 160x160 for years for an ebook reader, and it's great. I've gone through quite a few, especially from Baen

It ends up with a column width around that of an article in a newspaper or magazine, and is quite readable. Even when only using a limited number of colors (default fonts are only 1-bit) ti works well. I think much of it is due to having a white background. So the reflective properties and contrast of the display itself could make a huge difference.

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[Angst Badger]

Forget the resolution, look at the picture -- this stuff is much greyer than even newsprint. There's a reason real paper is white and so much money and effort goes into bleaching wood pulp to make it that way: the contrast makes it easier to read and reduces eyestrain.

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[b0r1s]

The resolution isn't a big deal - we use virtually the same resolution for recording video blogs and the results are great. The color levels, though, will be the problems with this.

It'll be great to watch as it develops though - if we could send videos of drunk girls via email/MMS out to handheld paper displays, I think college students could die happy.

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[GodGell]

hmmm, i wouldn't already call a very first prototype of a new kind of screen obsolete just because the screen resolution is low at first. the first CRT's had much lower resolutions than that, and look where they are now...

by the way, i'm tired so i haven't RTFA, but i'm pretty sure it's done with OLED's and if that's so, you can in theory add any number of OLEDs to it that fit on it, increasing screen resolution to as much as you want. the problem is not the display itself, but how it's all wired up. you can imagine it wouldn't be easy to wire up a couple million OLEDs while maintaining the matter's flexibility and allowing for individual addressibility. it's pretty obvious that this prototype was not a test of how great OLED screens are, but a test of how great foldable OLED screens are...

by the way, the 19" CRT screen sitting in front of me, operating at a screen resolution of 1600*1200*32, is just as "dot-matrix like" as it would be if it were set at 320*240*8...

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[eno2001]

Thank you for lowering my hopes for human survival beyond the early 21st century. Man! And I thought Yafro was bad. I wonder how long it will be before all the attention starved Yafro folks move to Vobbo? Terrifying.

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[CProgrammer98]

If you'd have taken the 2 minutes required to RTFA, you would quickly see it's not OLEDS. It's...

Using a bi-stable electrophoretic display effect from E Ink Corp., the display consumes little power and is easy to read, even in bright daylight

So you spent more time typing an irrelevant comment than it woulda taken you to RTFA. But hey, this IS slashdot :)

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[ozmanjusri]

by the way, i'm tired so i haven't RTFA, but i'm pretty sure it's done with OLED's

It might have been worth reading before posting then, because it's not OLED technology. It is an electrophoretic display which uses black-and-white micron-sized particles in a fluid-filled space. A voltage is applied to send the particles forward or back. They should still scale well though.

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe there's a similar product by E-Ink in Cambridge, Mass.

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[jcl5m]

This comment and the parent comment frustrate me. They are short-sighted criticisms of a fundamentally new technology. I've held samples of this technology in my hand, and its potential is staggering. Sure, the current prototypes are a bit crude in terms of contrast and resolution, but these are engineering issues that will go away with time and more R&D money.

The two key features that make this a revolutionary new display technology is that it is thin and flexible (and can be manufactured and processed as giant sheets) and that it is bi-stable, meaning once you set the image it takes no power to retain that image. These two features are unlike any other display technology we have today, and unltimately will define the applications it is appropriate for. This really does have the potential to radically change periodical print media, personal printing, and poster/billboard advertising.

In the future, I would encourage you to learn a little bit more about a new technology before saying it sucks.

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[Afrosheen]

If I were to bet on a winner in the race for flexible displays, I'd put my money on Fujitsu. Just a month or so ago they had an article on their prototype color (!) roll-up display that looked much better. It was also bi-stable. I'll take two when they're ready. :)

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[DrKyle]

If you look at this picture the display actually looks quite readable with quite a few lines of text. I imagine in a few years they will double the pixels, increase the contrast and use font smoothing to make it all the better.

And I too have read ebooks on a smaller 320x240 display and found it easy enough to keep using 5 hours+ in a row during reading sessions.

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[jerquiaga]

If you actually read the article you'll see the sentence which says: "Polymer Vision does not intend to commercialize this concept as a product in the market. Instead, it is demonstrating the fitness of its rollable displays for use in future mobile devices." They know there are problems, but wanted to see if it's even doable.

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[gabuzo]

Well you're partly right however this is only a consequence on the press release. I'm sorry but 320x200 on a 5 inch screen is really far from "paper-like" viewing. Laser printing got a par with classical printing when it reached 600dpi. So I doubt you can get "paper-like" without at least 300dpi and a really high contrast.

Also interesting for the thin, flexible and "no need to maintain power" part, the displayed prototype on have 80dpi resolution and AFAIK a really poor constrast. So I don't want to bash new technology but the step need to go from the prototype to actual paper-like display if really beyond engineering issues.

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[DiarmuidBourke]

Wow,you managed to bitch about a prototype. Congratulations! IMO, this technology is cool. Imagine this for a use. A Cinema screen that folds out from the side of your living-room window and doesn't require a projector! A map display in cars. Actually, this type of screen could eliminate the need for enormous display systems anywhere! concerts, cinemas, bilboards.. Hmm, actually, just thought of one other use. Laptops, notebooks! No more bulky screens!

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[Anonymous Writer]

Here's a link to E Ink's technology.

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[trewornan]

Bush doesn't care about poor people - in norleens that means mainly blacks but to Bush that's just incidental.

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[Soybean47]

There's nothing paper-like about reading dot-matrix like resolutions.

Perhaps I'm misreading this, but... if you're comparing it to the output from a dot-matrix printer, isn't that exactly "paper-like"?

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[Anonymous Coward]

> There's a reason real paper is white and so much money and effort goes into bleaching wood
> pulp to make it that way: the contrast makes it easier to read and reduces eyestrain.

Damn right! This display is "paper-like" ...if you're talking about dark gray ink on light gray paper!

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[coolGuyZak]

Right... but this is a prototype for a device which uses a roll-up display, not the display itself.

Either way, I'm quite excited about this. However, I hope that if this starts being used for newspapers... that they don't start looking like news webpages... tons of ads cicling the page. I prefer the tons of ads lumped at the bottom xor side. ;)

Also, as far as the interface for an e-paper magazine is concerned... it would be excellent to have several "pages" of the paper (maybe a total of 4), and to advance a page, you actually turn it. Combine that with a few hyperlinks (for fast advancement) and you got yourself something which is usable and natural.

Crap... I should go get a patent for this -- no, wait!!! Everyone, remember this post for prior art!

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[LWATCDR]

Actually too high of a contrast makes it harder to read. Ever wonder why black boards where green?
Why whe used to have green screen and amber monitors?
They where easier on the eyes.
The stark white and back is more of what is popular than what will actually reduce eyestrain.
Too much contrast is bad.
Too little is also bad.

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[ConceptJunkie]

Do you really think they would say "paper-like display in two years" and then throw something out in two months, and put it on the market?

Why not, software companies do it all the time?

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[Total_Wimp]

You're right, it's quite readable, but the picture you sent also highlights how much work there is to do on this display. At that size you can see all the presumably dead pixels. They look almost like acne.

I'm pretty excited about this, but it looks like it'll be a little while before I'm holding onto one.

TW

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[Anonymous Coward]

These CRTs are so blurry and hard to see, they'll never compare with film. I bet we won't even remember this dead-end technology by 1950.

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[GreyPoopon]

Why not, software companies do it all the time?

No, software companies promise something in two months, and then distribute a prototype-quality system two years later.

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[Anonymous Coward]

For the record, Daniel Jackson never seems to have any trouble reading from Goa'uld tablet devices.

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[Digital Pizza]

I you want to induce nausea, hook one of those up to a VCR and watch TV on it for a while...

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[tsarmallon]

If the screen resolution would improve this would be great for e-books, and even better for e-newspapers. As a pseudo-hippy environmentalist, I think it would be great to reduce the paper used. Perhaps a NYTimes RSS feed to a larger and more clear version of this device?

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[tzot]

If you don't mind the folding / rolling part, Hitachi's electronic paper might be what's best. We can always use a case resembling a hardcover book to carry such e-paper around.

Re:need higher resolution and more gray level

[Anonymous Coward]

i'd put my money on flexible organic LEDs which are gonna be way better

Ready for primetime?

[gbulmash]

Cool prototype and proof of concept, but is it ready for primetime with the specs? Four levels of gray are good for text, but poor for B&W photos and certain types of graphs. I'm not trying to denigrate it as an achievement, but as a product... I have some issues with it. Until it can do more shades and possibly a higher resolution, would it be more than a status gadget?

- Greg

Re:Ready for primetime?

[putko]

It will be ready enough for the applications that need it -- they'll be willing to put up with the high price/features&quality. Later it will get cheap and be everywhere.

Just about everything you use started out really pricey and flaky -- but then got cheap and reliable.

Re:Ready for primetime?

[timeOday]

Since it's only a prototype and not a product, and since they still have most of the two years until product release left, I'm guessing Philips does not see it as ready for primetime.

I'm really excited about reflective (vs emissive, like color LCD) displays though. Computers just won't work well outside dimly lit offices until reflective displays are practical. Think about a large-screen TV with NO brightness issues; you want it brighter, just shine a lamp on it (like a painting).

Re:Ready for primetime?

[NoGuffCheck]

Until it can do more shades and possibly a higher resolution, would it be more than a status gadget?

you mean like the iPod?

Re:Ready for primetime?

[X0563511]

I could see some kind of calculator device using it. My old TI-83 has a lower resolution and only has 1 level of grey (on and off...) but you can still do plenty with it.

Re:Ready for primetime?

[agent0range_]

"Polymer Vision does not intend to commercialize this concept as a product in the market. Instead, it is demonstrating the fitness of its rollable displays for use in future mobile devices."
It's a good start. They said they'd have a prototype in 2 years, it took a few months... but it's nothing more than a proof of concept.

Re:Ready for primetime?

[mabinogi]

Are there really so many people that don't know what a prototype is?

A prototype isn't "Well, it's got a couple of bugs, but otherwise it's ready".

A prototype is "if we cobble together these bits and pieces, you can get a general idea of what it might possibly look like once we've actually developed it"

Re:Ready for primetime?

[Cunk]

I'm confused. It seems to me that emissive displays would have the advantage over reflective in most situations. Reflective would only be superior in brightly lit environments (like outside).

And the need to shine a lamp on my TV screen doesn't sound too appealing. 1) If the lighting isn't even then there'll be dark areas and 2) having a bright lamp illuminating the screen sort of detracts from the experience of watching a movie in a darkened room.

Or maybe I'm envisioning it wrong.

Re:Ready for primetime?

[jbrader]

Hmmmm.. that's a pretty good idea, you could used it in the rolled up configuration for simple arithmetic types of calculations and then extend it for graphing.

Re:Ready for primetime?

[shmlco]

Check. I have a PDA I use as a ebook reader, and the backlit/emissive display is very useful under low light conditions where reading a real book would be almost impossible. In essence, it's a book with a built-in booklight...

Re:Ready for primetime?

[YeeHaW_Jelte]

A prototype isn't "Well, it's got a couple of bugs, but otherwise it's ready". That's a product, isn't it?

Re:Ready for primetime?

[TheScorpion420]

Philips != Microsoft

Re:Ready for primetime?

[infolib]

Four levels of gray are good for text, but poor for B&W photos and certain types of graphs.

I read lots of plain text on a daily basis and I'm not the only one. I'd be very happy to have a book-like device with internet updates, especially since it'd save me a bunch of reading off a screen.

Re:Ready for primetime?

[Infinityis]

Depends...if you're Google, then it's called "Beta"

Re:Ready for primetime?

[binarybum]

no, you're envisioning it correctly, and I agree there would have to be some sort of emissive version of this someday for video use, but right now I think the goal is e-paper and minimal power consumption. While someday, I think flexible displays will be the be-all and end-all - for right now, a large, crsip, greyscale reflective e-book or notebook would be perfect - the major advantage besides being electronic is the reduction in eye-strain. - ever try reading a novel on a notebook or pda? It can be brutal.

Oh oh!

[saskboy]

This is going to completely ruin the blonde joke involving computer screens and white out!

Re:Oh oh!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is going to completely ruin the blonde joke involving computer screens and white out!

Yeah but it will introduce a new joke about the blonde wiping her ass with her monitor.

Re:Oh oh!

[Titus B. Otch]

>This is going to completely ruin the blonde joke involving computer screens and white out!

>>Yeah but it will introduce a new joke about the blonde wiping her ass with her monitor.

Why did the blonde shove a bluetooth rollable display up her ass?

The revengeful /. sysadmin she rejected told her to secure her backdoor...

Re:Oh oh!

[PornMaster]

Because she'll need to use gray-out instead?

Re:Oh oh!

[argStyopa]

If it's combined with webcamera technology, it's not a joke, it sounds like a new internet industry.

Re:Oh oh!

[Surt]

And, sadly, that will spawn a whole new sub genre in the porn industry.

Give it some time.

[CyricZ]

There was a time when the best personal computers had screens of that quality. But over time the technology develops, and things will improve. While not perfect, I would hardly suggest that this technology is useless. It is merely a stepping stone to far greater achievements.

Re:Give it some time.

[Anonymous Coward]

Zig-Zag had this years ago

Re:Give it some time.

[QuantumG]

Yes, but the difference is that producers of four greyscale monitors actually sold units which gave them money to do development to produce more capable monitors. These guys, on the other hand, are likely going to not bother trying to get sales until they have a 256 greyscale display and then they'll charge too much for it to try to make up their development costs and the technology will fade into obscurity.

Re:Give it some time.

[timmyd]

Yeah, but why is display technology moving so slow? I can't find a non-laptop 17" LCD monitor that can do 1600x1200. And 1600x1200 has been around for ages. I don't need fast 3D graphics or anything, I'd just like some detailed screens where i can't count then number of pixels in the non-antialiased white '/' character on a black terminal. which appears to be 10, on this computer's xterm.

Re:Give it some time.

[Com2Kid]

Supply and demand.

Well mostly just that you can sell suckers (most buyers) a low rez 17" LCD screen and they don't know the difference.

Heck look at what prices 15" LCD TVs go for! You can get a 15" LCD Monitor for less.

And a computer with a TV tuner!

Re:Give it some time.

[PARENA]

Possibibly. It's what happens to lots of Philips' ideas.

CD-I... what?

Re:Give it some time.

[Threni]

> Possibibly. It's what happens to lots of Philips' ideas.
> CD-I... what?

Yeah, and CDs. CD players are just too expensive. They'll never catch on.

Re:Give it some time.

[Vesperi]

Hey, I used to work for what was left of the CD-i wing of Philips - pmpro. It got spun off and we took all the CD-I hardware and titles still in stock. We we're still doing CD-I title development work up until 2000. At that point times got tough and I had to find other work.

Basicaly DVD functions on normal CD-Rom media.

Re:Give it some time.

[SpryGuy]

Actually, I'd be fine with 4-grayscale if it were at 300dpi.

That'd make a perfectly usable eBook type display, for example.

The problem is far more with the resolution than with the number of shades of gray. Heck, black and white at 300dpi would make a great eBook, and have many other applications.

Re:Give it some time.

[Excen]

And let me guess, you're going to be the first idiot to get sent to the hospital for trying to roll a blunt out of a computer monitor.

How tough is it?

[mashade]

This looks like a cool new technology, but how useful can it be? I'm wondering how durable the 'film screen' is. Can I accidentally rip it, pulling it out of a pocket? I'm interested to see prototypes in other such designs, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how useful something like this may be.

Re:How tough is it?

[CyricZ]

You can easily rip paper pulling it out of your pocket. If anything, this technology will most likely be stronger than paper. Of course, that does not mean that it is invulnerable. But compared to paper, it may very well be far more durable.

Re:How tough is it?

[YrWrstNtmr]

Ripped paper is still readable. But yeah..I expect this will be far more durable than paper.

Re:How tough is it?

[OzRoy]

From the picture it seems to just give devices the ability to expand the screen out so you can have a very portable device with a large screen.

So think of a mobile phone sized device that can expand out to screen size of a PSP (or something like that). Then give that screen touch pad or stylus abilities, and a powerful CPU and you have an ultimate generic portable PC with game, mp3 and organiser abilities.

Re:How tough is it?

[minsyntax]

Good question. One thing I like about my books is that they still work after my having dropped them a bunch of times. The data is still intact, and there's no 'blue page of death'.

As a technosceptic (and how many technosceptics read Slashdot I wonder?) the "How tough is it?" question is one of the main reasons why I don't have more gadgets. Obviously Philips won't start selling whatever this turns into until it's somehwat sturdy. And by the time the purchased product breaks/becomes virtually unreadable, the technophile consumer usually lusts after the newer, better replacement.

That being said, I must say something like this would have a number of good uses, eg. meeting agendas & notes during teleconferences etc etc.

Re:How tough is it?

[aussie_a]

You can easily rip paper pulling it out of your pocket.

Will it have a paper-like price-tag (bumped up slightly for it's more durable state)? If yes, great. Otherwise it being fragile is a real concern. Now I'm by no means rough with my expensive gadgets, but if it's too flimsy when unrolling it, it's usefulness is decreased dramatically.

Also, how easy will it be to keep this thing open? And do you really need both hands? Reading something so small two handed can be annoying (please leave the jokes for another time). You need a good justifiable reason for needing both hands with something this small (such as with a PSP where both hands are doing something), and "keeping it open" doesn't seem a very good one (in my opinion). This should be a design issue that's worked on before it's released if this product is going to be useful.

Re:How tough is it?

[aussie_a]

I looked at the pic again, it isn't as flimsy as I first thought. Nifty.

Re:How tough is it?

[NanoGator]

"This looks like a cool new technology, but how useful can it be? I'm wondering how durable the 'film screen' is. Can I accidentally rip it, pulling it out of a pocket? I'm interested to see prototypes in other such designs, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how useful something like this may be."

It means a lower weight device with much lower power consumption. I like the idea of one of these devices as a simple e-book reader that runs on a single AA.

Re:How tough is it?

[sik0fewl]

I'm wondering how durable the 'film screen' is. Can I accidentally rip it, pulling it out of a pocket?

You could always laminate it. This would keep it safe from pesky coffee stains, too.

Re:How tough is it?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've heard that they are going to encase the paper in glass to make it rip-proof. I've never seen glass ripped.

Re:How tough is it?

[flend]

A fairly major selling point of these screens is that they are considerably harder to break than normal glass based screens. Glass is to some degree brittle. These screens are made of 4 layers of tough plastic and should be resistant to dropping, ripping and even to some degree scratching.

The display component is from e-ink and is basically made up of little balls, each half black and half white. When the screen is powered up it flips the relevant balls to make a picture (and then powers down and the image stays). In the lab they claim to have VGA res, colour and refresh speeds suitable for video (early versions of this system had refresh speeds of about 0.5s which was painful)

Re:How tough is it?

[grimJester]

So think of a mobile phone sized device that can expand out to screen size of a PSP (or something like that).

And while you're at it, think of Nokia's "Consumers want mobile TV"-study from a few days ago. To be honest, I'll be happy to just get net access with a 10" screen that still fits in the mobile phone I have in my pocket anyway.

Re:How tough is it?

[tooth]

What is it with you people? For years this is what people here have said they wanted... digital text books, and this is has the potential to do that, yet there are heaps of "not for me" posts. What's happened to everyones imagination?

Re:How tough is it?

[Alistar]

Digital textbooks, oh I hope we don't get those. I certainly don't want something like this (textbooks with EULAs) http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/10/00 8228&tid=146&tid=192&tid=17
and as displays like these become better and more viable it could start replacing normal books.

Big version of the image in the article...

[mrchaotica]

...here , and other images here.

Re:Big version of the image in the article...

[CyricZ]

Re: the first image.

What sport are those results from? More specifically, who exactly is "Kaka"? "Kaka" is a term normally used by children to refer to faeces. It is indeed quite a hilarity that it would be the name of an athlete!

Also, what sort of device is that? Is that device required to modify and view the images that are displayed? If so, that looks to be less portable than your typical PDA.

Re:Big version of the image in the article...

[strider44]

It's football or soccer, depending on where you come from. Profile of Kaka. He's brazillian.

Re:Big version of the image in the article...

[pyrrhonist]

What sport are those results from? More specifically, who exactly is "Kaka"? "Kaka" is a term normally used by children to refer to faeces

You're thinking of caca.

Kaka means something else.

Re:Big version of the image in the article...

[sucker_muts]

Is it just me or are there a whole lot of always-on pixels on those examples? Not too good, in my opinion...

Re:Big version of the image in the article...

[mrchaotica]

Read up on the way "e-ink" works. The display doesn't require power to retain its image; it requires power only to change it. If you notice, a few of those pictures show the display continuing to show an image even when the device is disassembled.

This kind of display works surprisingly similarly to how magnetic storage. It sets the pixels (bits) by aligning the pigment with an electromagnetic field, and then the pigment maintains its position when the field is switched off.

Re:Big version of the image in the article...

[stoborrobots]

Is that device required to modify and view the images that are displayed? If so, that looks to be less portable than your typical PDA.

I'm just wondering how a device which fits in the palm of the hand rolled up, and can be operated in a configurations barely the size of a small book is less portable than your average PalmPilot/iPaq/full-featured-cellphone/iPod?

Compare that photo with these:
* http://www.be-home.com.au/Support/iPaq%20Hand.jpg
* http://www.activearmor.com/ipaq_hand_3.jpg
* http://www.photonic-insight.com/product7.html
* http://pocketnow.com/index.php?a=portal_imagead&t= reviews&id=482&img=http://www.pocketnow.com/html/p ortal/reviews/0000000482/review/compare2.jpg

omg...

[EtherealStrife]

Earth: Final Conflict, anyone?

E:FC MCI "Global"

Yet another case of companies ripping off scifi inventions. The only difference is the EFC ones were badged MCI. And of course, the Philips ones are functional. :)

That having been said, I can't wait to pick one up!

Re:omg...

[raitchison]

That was the first thing I was thinking too! Can't wait to pick one of these up in the sto'or.

Seriously though, most of the rest of the global technology already exists, essentiall it's a video/camera phone with the roll-up display. Of course the real time video phone technology as well as the truly global (& orbital) range are a long ways off practicality wise.

It's definitely reasonable to expect a device very similar to the EFC Global within our lifetimes.

Re:omg...

[BigT]

Stargate SG-1 had a similar looking device in the episode "Window of Opportunity". The alien archeologist on the planet with the time manipulator had one.

Re:omg...

[Anonymous Coward]

"within our lifetimes."

I'm 87, you inconsiderate clod!

Re:omg...

[Moridineas]

I wonder when I can get one from the sto'or?

Re:omg...

[Anonymous Coward]

It'd help if they 'ripped off' something that actually existed.

Re:omg...

[roseblood]

damn www.efc.com has no sto'or or st'or anymore :(

Re:omg...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Yet another case of companies ripping off scifi inventions."

Christ, only on slashdot.

I suggest getting out of your holograph room once in a while and experiencing this thing we call "reality."

Re:omg...

[Anonymous Coward]

Anym'ore, surely?

Re:omg...

[EtherealStrife]

Have you *looked* at the thing? There's a reason why a couple dozen people have mentioned the EFC similarity throughout this article's topics (and on other boards as well, I'm seeing). If you are referring to the continuing trend to Make-Real many of scifi's most beloved inventions, and that this is just yet another one of these (and I'm making a big deal out of a small piece of the whole), then I apologize. Try posting inname, next time. As for getting out of the holograph room, I do not have one nor do I collect holographs. Antiquated means of surrounding yourself with memorobilia.

But I COULD use a vulcan love slave or two on the holo*deck*...

press release from polymervision

[maroonhat]

a press release from the screen's manufacturer can be found here:
http://www.polymervision.com/New-Center/Press-Rele ases/Article-14693.html

This will revolutionize schools

[Crimsane]

Now, instead of finding little jimmy reading a penthouse stuffed in between pages of his math textbook, we will catch him salavating to Debbie Does Dallas.

Now thats progress.

Re:This will revolutionize schools

[CyricZ]

Had Jimmy lived in a society that wasn't so fucking stuck up about the very natural concept of sexual relationships, then he wouldn't have to be whacking his peter to pornography in his arithmetics class.

Re:This will revolutionize schools

[Jeremi]

You'd prefer to live in a society where it's normal for people to whack off in math class?

Better watch where you put your textbooks....

Re:This will revolutionize schools

[Moofie]

Whaaa...?

Where are these societies where people aren't interested in pictures of other, naked people? I think such a society would be very dull. And short-lived.

Re:This will revolutionize schools

[mrchaotica]

He wasn't saying that other societies aren't interested in naked people, but rather that it would be socially acceptable to see them so that Jimmy could do so somewhere other than math class.

Re:This will revolutionize schools

[FidelCatsro]

That is all well and good , and I am a major proponent of Open and healthy sexual concepts and removing the puritanical silliness of unnecessary shame.
Though when the little Git is meant to be doing his maths homework , or learning.. he better expect some punishment for slacking off.

Re:This will revolutionize schools

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh Great. You've just redefined 'slacking off'.

Red Planet

[gkozlyk]

Now all we need is a computer device like the ones they used in the movie 'Red Planet'.

Re:Red Planet

[Dirtside]

If anything about reality becomes like that godawful piece of shit movie Red Planet, I will blow up the Earth. I mean it.

Re:Red Planet

[TheScorpion420]

No, now all we need is the cereal box from Minoriy Report. Thats progress.

Re:Red Planet

[orac2]

Hey, at least it wasn't in Mission to Mars: you'd have to nova the Sun.

If...

[Ceirren]

If they did sell these, how long do you think until someone tried to use an eraser on their paper-like display? Oh god that wasn't even funny.

Re:If...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, make it touch-sensitive like a wacom, and your stylus can have an eraser function on it...

So, I wouldn't think it will take too long at all :)

Earth: Final Conflict

[Anonymous Coward]

Reminds me of the communications system used in Earth: Final Conflict. They had pull out screens on there protable video phone devices that displayed things. Now if we can just get the color and resolution up these would be great for PDAs.

Applications!

[Dr Tom Danger]

*$2,000 Paper! *Finally I can code and send my source via bottle while stranded on a tropical island. *"Only true hax0rs send their pc's by mail TUBE." *Overhead projectors = the obsolete? *One more extraneous piece of equipment I can buy, not buy the extended warranty on, and break? Sounds hot, I'll take one.

The Ultimate PDA

[KrackHouse]

PDAs leave an unsightly bulge in my pants. If I could install Skype on something like that and use it as a cellphone when rolled up - I'd have everything I'd ever need in a communications device - for reals.

Re:The Ultimate PDA

[Anonymous Coward]

PDAs leave an unsightly bulge in my pants.

Is that a PDA in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

Sorry.

Re:The Ultimate PDA

[shiftless]

I have a similar problem, but it isn't caused by a PDA. I get a lot of attention from the ladies for some reason...

burn, karma, burn!

Re:The Ultimate PDA

[mark-t]

You get a lot of attention from the ladies and you take time to post on slashdot?

I call bullshit.

Re:The Ultimate PDA

[KrackHouse]

C'mon you should have brought
"Is that the Ultimate PDA in your pocket...."

Re:The Ultimate PDA

[aztektum]

At least somethin' is creatin' a bulge in your drawers, Daffodil!

*Ba Dum Tcsh!*

Re:The Ultimate PDA

[Aceticon]

A fine example of the power of moderation:
- It's actually the Funny moderation that's the cue to the joke

Though a moderation of Interesting might have actually enhanced the joke but make it harder to spot. Come to think of it Informative would've had a similiar effect as Interesting.

Re:The Ultimate PDA

[absurdist]

you are WAY overthinking this...

Re:The Ultimate PDA

[Anonymous Coward]

"Is that a rollable paper-like display in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?"

Re:The Ultimate PDA

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you should change your underwear.

Re:The Ultimate PDA

[OblongPlatypus]

This thing is pretty big as well though, even while rolled up. They could easily fit a 320x240 display on the device itself, if those measurements are correct. (Given a reasonable pixel pitch of less than 0.25mm.)

Measurements...

[nmb3000]

for the SI impaired: ~ 4in x 2.4in x 0.75in.

Reminds me of that prop on SG-1 in Window of Opportunity with the guy's wife's picture on it, except that was color (and was a lot better than 320x240 :)

Re:Measurements...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow; if that weren't just the funniest episode of Stargate ever I don't think I would have a clue what you were talking about.

Not intended for 'prime time'.

[Anonymous Coward]

Being as the article itself states that it's not intended as a consumer product I don't think you'll see it on ThinkGeek any time soon.

I know I know.. This is slashdot. Who reads the articles.. etc

A comparision:

[strredwolf]

The display of a Zaurus 5500SL is 3.5" diagonal for a (color) QVGA screen. This one is much bigger -- about twice as big. Think two Zaurus 5500SL's screens side by side when that rolled display is extended.

But I agree. Get it to a higher resolution and color, and you got yourself a deal.

Re:Looks good...

[Anonymous Coward]

are you checking the value of Windows CE on a piece of paper? Kickass isn't a boolean

you might be setting it to kickass...but then you'd use = not ==

GREEN SCREENS!

[Bob Cat - NYMPHS]

Wow, those were SO primitve you could actually READ them without going blind!

Re:GREEN SCREENS!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, your mileage may vary. After 4-8 hours on a green screen, your eyes green receptors get real whacked out for a while, anything white will look pink, very pink! Try it!

Re:GREEN SCREENS!

[silverkniveshotmail.]

Well, your mileage may vary. After 4-8 hours on a green screen, your eyes green receptors get real whacked out for a while, anything white will look pink, very pink! Try it!

Not to mention the super-low refresh rate they had.
Tends to give some people bad headaches.

Re:GREEN SCREENS!

[ncc74656]

Well, your mileage may vary. After 4-8 hours on a green screen, your eyes green receptors get real whacked out for a while, anything white will look pink, very pink! Try it!

Not to mention the super-low refresh rate they had. Tends to give some people bad headaches.

I never noticed either of those problems with the Apple Monitor II green-screen I used with my IIe. Maybe you'd burn in your eyes (along with the tube) if you had the brightness cranked way too high, but it didn't happen at normal levels. I used to look into that monitor for hours at a time while coding, punching in programs, writing papers, or whatever, and never noticed that pink effect.

As for the refresh rate, most monochrome displays had long-persistence phosphors. Flicker was much less noticeable with one of these driven at 60 Hz than with a color monitor or TV driven at the same 60 Hz.

Great military potential

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello active camoflage.

Re:Great military potential

[taniwha]

well provided you're trying to hide on a chessboard, or around dice - you might have to wait for them to do color first ....

Re:Great military potential

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, its common that uraban camo is only black and grey. Also, the Marine Corps uses a "digital" pattern of small blocks rather than smooth lines on their uniform/gear now. So the crappy resolution and lack of color might be useful!

Re:Great military potential

[CubicleView]

Maybe in the artic, it could just display an all white image, like those fatigues the bond bad guys wore in that film(you know the one with the snow and skiing). If it doesn't do white great yet, it could display a completely black image for night ops! the mind boggles at the possibilities

Re:Great military potential

[dustman]

Also, just check out the images of this awesome camoflage pattern:

http://www.multicampattern.com/IMAGES.htm

You almost can't believe it's the same pattern in the different images... Against the orange-ish sand, against green foliage, or against a gray stone wall, it blends in great.

Re:Great military potential

[Infinityis]

Maybe he was referring to that mysterious "night camouflage" that can be done in all black. Or maybe camouflage to hide you from blind people.

E-Ink

[foniksonik]

Furtherdown in the article it mentions very blithely that the technology powering it comes from none other than E-Ink which explains the quicker than expected turn around. It's Phillips branded and integrated but the tech that makes it work is E-Ink Corp's.

Check out their site to see the roadmap... we should be seeing much improved versions of this gadget very soon.

Re:E-Ink

[foniksonik]

Whoops, looks like E=Ink has removed much of the forward looking information from their site since the last time I looked at them... guess they are letting their partner companies make the big announcements.

Re:E-Ink

[Bender_]

It's Phillips branded and integrated but the tech that makes it work is E-Ink Corp's.

That is not true. Each display has a frontplane (the display mechanism) and a backplane (the transistors that control it).

As far as I understand it, only the front plane is by e-Ink. The back plane was apparently entirely developed by polymer vision.

An interesting fact is, that it is based on organic electronics. (check out the tech section). If they manage to bring this display to market, it will probably be the first commercial application of organic electronic.

Re:E-Ink

[PsychoBrat]

Various Japanese (and Korean?) devices such as faceplates for car stereos already use OLED displays, IIRC.

Re:E-Ink

[mwvdlee]

E-Ink is mostly funded by Philips and uses a lot of Philips research.
It's hard to say where exactly the technology came from, since it incorporates research from both companies.
For all practical purposes, E-Ink and Philips are a single entity at the moment; mutually dependant.

Re:E-Ink

[payndz]

it will probably be the first commercial application of organic electronic

Shadow, or Vorlon?

Re:E-Ink

[foniksonik]

I thought e-Ink was a spinoff from an educational research program.... I recall reading about their tech a few years ago in one of the science news aggregates... RIT or MIT or one of those...

Re:E-Ink

[mwvdlee]

E-Ink isn't particularly clear on their own history. What can be found quite easily though is that Philips was one of the very first partners and has since been, by far, the largest partner in finance, reseach and manufacturing. It is safe to say that E-Ink owes a lot to Philips' involvement.

Re:E-Ink

[MacroRex]

it will probably be the first commercial application of organic electronic

BS. There are lots of examples, but for instance, the JoS MP-120 is not even a new product anymore, and it comes with a OLED display. And it rocks the socks off a Shuffle, too.

Re:E-Ink

[Bender_]

Yes, there are various OLED displays out there. But they all use backplanes based on silicon transistors. The display by polymer vision does supposedly use a backplane based on organic transistors. That is a huge difference.

It is somewhat ironic, that organic transistors are not even remotely mature enough to drive an OLED front plane. So you can either have an organic front plane or an organic back plane.

Re:E-Ink

[Bender_]

BS. There are lots of examples,

BS - all your examples are passive OLED displays or driven by a silicon transistor backplane. I am talking about using organic transistors for a backplane.

Re:E-Ink

[Anonymous Coward]

what do you want?

Re:Looks good...

[Virak]

How about Linux? Now whenever a slashdotter asks, you can truthfully say "Yes, Linux *does* run on my porno mag!".

That's Great but...

[Ride Jib]

Can it run Linux? But on a serious note, my school (www.clemson.edu) has been working on this same project for a couple years now. I can't find any information on it at the moment, but all the commercials promoting the school have this project in it.

Only a few month?

[Bender_]

few months ago Philips promised a rollable, paper-like display in two years, but it only took them a few months..

The new thing is the reader. Functional prototypes of the displays have been presented way earlier, as obvious from many older articles on slashdot. The displays have been under development for at least five years. Check out the publications from the polymervision website:

  H. E. A. Huitema, G. H. Gelinck, J. B. P. H. van der Putten, K. E. Kuijk, C. M. Hart, E. Cantatore, P. T. Herwig, A. J. J. M. van Breemen, D. M. de Leeuw, Plastic transistors in active-matrix displays, Nature 2001, 414, 599.

G. H. Gelinck, T. C. T. Geuns, D. M. de Leeuw,High-performance all-polymer integrated circuits, Appl. Phys. Lett. 2000, 77, 1487-1489.

C. J. Drury, C. M. J. Mutsaerts, C. M. Hart, M. Matters, D. M. de Leeuw, Low-cost all-polymer integrated circuits., Appl. Phys. Lett. 1998, 73, 108-110.

direct competition to print

[romit_icarus]

This is a great development. I hope we all realise that rollable paper has an enormous market today, perhaps even larger than the desktop/notebook market. For the first time, here's a medium in a form factor that is direct competetition to print newspapers, magazines and books.

People said the same thing when the internet came, but they underestimated the importance that we give to the flexibilty of paper - it can be rolled, folded, tucked in your suitcase, offer a large view etc. Now finally, we have a chance to get intelligent content that can be read in a true state of leisure...

Re:direct competition to print

[gregm]

I agree... the market for rollable paper is indeed huge, however, one-hitters and bongs are quickly gaining marketshare. PAPERS! we don't need no stinkin' papers :)

Sorry.. you made an interesting and serious post but I just couldn't resist.

G

Re:direct competition to print

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right-

Imagine this for blueprints. Dynamic layers..

Imagine this for roadmaps. A blinking 'you are here' cursor, dynamically drawn pathing...

There's plenty more.

Re:Looks good...

[Alystair]

Impossible, MS's technology isn't compatible with this device, how could you possibly display the BSOD in grayscale!

Digital CAD Scrolls?

[DigiShaman]

Title says it all ;) Just imagine a scroll with one rod containing the logic and the other battery power. Pull them apart and unroll a huge electronic "blue print" or other architecture drawings...complete with zoom and 3D functions too.

Re:Digital CAD Scrolls?

[digitalchinky]

Reminds me of the movie 'The red planet' with Val Kilmer - he had a similar thing - full colour though - maybe that technology isn't so far off after all : )

Re:Digital CAD Scrolls?

[Anonymous Coward]

But where this would be useful (on the field), it would be under constant stress. Trust me, paper blueprints get torn apart all the time and end up covered in tape, which is ok since it's cheap, but this thing, tear it apart, and your boss will tear you a new one.

Buttons on the top

[Dan East]

I read ebooks daily on my 240x320 Pocket PC (I use it landscape for reading at 320x240, just like in the article photo). I seldom hold the device in one hand, as they indicate. The most comfortable method for me, allowing for reading for long periods of time, is to use both hands and "encircle" the device with my fingers. If you touch your index finger-tips together, as well as your thumb-tips, forming a rectangle that would encircle the device, you'll see what I mean.

My Pocket PC (Asus a716) has buttons on the top (when held landscape) that I can push with either index finger.

The main problem I see with this prototype is they force you to hold the device with your left hand in a specific position to operate the buttons. Hopefully an engineer will have the foresight to put multiple sets of page up / down buttons on the device so it can be utilized in different ways.

Dan East

Re:Buttons on the top

[rafa]

When reading books on my visor on the way to work, I use it in landscape mode, and hold it just in my right hand. I toggle back/forward with my thumb.

Flat speakers

[Anonymous Coward]

If these displays are combined with flat bendable speakers and the economics of scale, we could have a whole new era of interactive user interfaces.

Re:Looks good...

[Anonymous Cowterd]

that would suck. command line on a piece of paper? you would need to plug in your paper keyboard because paper kde would be just awful (not to mention you'd need a paper mouse to do anything useful). also, linux would only be (partially) useful if you plugged your paper computer into a network to download modules and dependancies. like i said, CE would own

Perfect for an MP3 Player?

[Anti-Trend]

I'd like to see one of these babies on an iPod-like device. They are supposed to use very low power, maintain high contrast even in bright light, and can literally roll out so the device can be as compact as possible when you don't need the benefit of a whole screen. Even the 4-color grayscale wouldn't be too big of a drawback if you were just dealing with playlists.

-AT

Movies Coming To Life

[CFMLSpecialist]

Could this be another good example of how movie magic has inspired real world designers to come up with a new generation of technology? I remember seeing something like this in the movie "Red Planet". Although the one in the movie was (as usual) much more advanced and fancier, they are basically the same device.

Re:Movies Coming To Life

[Jeremi]

Could this be another good example of how movie magic has inspired real world designers to come up with a new generation of technology?

I think it's almost always the other way around. When Hollywood decides to do a sci-fi movie and want it to look "futuristic", they hire some consultants from the Wired magazine crowd and ask them what they think the "next big thing" might be. The consultants describe digital paper or gesture recognition or 3D displays or whatever, and the movie people mock it up, make it look sexy, and put it in the movie.

Please don't accuse Hollywood of creativity again, you could damage their reputation ;^)

Here's a better image

[elronxenu]

Early Prototype - note some burn-in and also edge distortion. I'm looking forward to seeing a more advanced version soon!

Nattering Nabobs of Negativity

[Continental]

Christ, if the moon was made of cheese you people would complain that it wasn't Brie de Meaux. This is the first step to e-paper! Any tech that gets us closer to a more interesting future I'm all in favor of. The first car didn't go 120 and have heated seats. The first e-paper won't be hi-def and touch sensitive. Or whatever else you're complaining about.

Re:Nattering Nabobs of Negativity

[CamonZ]

i agree with you, i'll still wait for more advanced models to begin considering as a viable business solution, but as i see it there are a lot of possibilities(for us IT guys), getting your paper every day, with hourly updates, better screens for visualizing telemetry data, a whole new generation of PDA's. i think these screens are something cool

Re:Nattering Nabobs of Negativity

[gcauthon]

The first car wasn't trying to replace something that went 120mph with heated seats, was it? Wasn't it replacing a horse? E-paper is attempting to replace paper so there's nothing wrong with expecting it to be as easy to read as real printed paper. Otherwise, what's the point?

Re:Nattering Nabobs of Negativity

[fabs64]

rofl, the first cars were powered by steam, had to constantly be fed call, were noisy, went slower than a horse and consistently showered the occupants with ash and soot.

Re:Nattering Nabobs of Negativity

[Daetrin]

E-paper is attempting to replace paper so there's nothing wrong with expecting it to be as easy to read as real printed paper. Otherwise, what's the point?

Oh i don't know, maybe the part where you can read an entire library of books on a single sheet of e-paper? Or maybe the part where you can display animations on it?

Re:Nattering Nabobs of Negativity

[pimpimpim]

Ok then, since you mention it should be replacing paper, wat about this:

- it needs batteries
- you cannot put a staple through it
- you can not rip it in half
- you cannot use a yellow marker to stress certain parts
- etc

This thing is only partially replacing paper of course, right now it's just a simple, but actually working, lightweight, flexible screen. How many of those have you seen before? This thing is the first working application of this kind, doesn't really replace anything existing, and therefore deserves some respect.
Call me naive, but when I saw the picture of the ipod-shuffle sized device that can be stretched out to a psp-sized screen, I was pretty amazed.

You can put as much technology in mobile devices as you want, without a considerable screen size you just won't be able to use it properly. Think about the recent mobile phone from samsung that can read excel/word/pdf files, but with a screen size limited to the phone size you sure will have problems filling in your spreadsheet! ;) I for one would prefer a mobile phone with a pixely screen like this any time over a crisp 4 million color display that has the size of a stamp.

Re:Nattering Nabobs of Negativity

[NewStarRising]

Agreed, this is not a "viable business solition", it is a proof-of-concept. They actually CAN produce rollable screens.
As mentioned elsewhere, the car-eqwuivalent of this would be an old bone-shaker with soot churning out all over, no suspension, breaking down every 5 minutes and requiring an expert (preferably the guy who built it) to do any repairs.
Soon (2-5 yrs), we will have the "finished" versions, with nice, bright, readable screens, maybe bigger and/or scalable.
I want one, but I will wait until they let it out of the lab. (And remembering other products I have bought, will probably wait for the "Really finished", rather than buy the public beta, erm, I mean Release 1.0 Version)

Re:Looks good...

[Virak]

First of all, I don't use KDE, I use GNOME. Secondly, I guess you're right; it'd be *completely* insane to put text on paper! And finally, I don't think anyone is stupid enough to try to run a piece of paper as a fully featured PC.

A wristwatch?!

[gcauthon]

Click on the image for some additional photos. It's a really big, geeky and awkward looking wristwatch. I would like to see someone try and get in a plane with one of those on their wrist. Also notice how the guy is laughing at a color photograph. What's funny is that it's fake. This thing is black and white only.

ssssspppppoooooogggggggeeeeeeee

[Anonymous Coward]

I WILL SPOOGE ON THIS DEVICE.

thankfully...

[KillShill]

they won't cripple such a useful invention in order to please the copyright cartel?

right? right...?

Re:thankfully...

[wagemonkey]

thankfully they won't cripple such a useful invention in order to please the copyright cartel?

Of course not, this is a wonderful way to apply DRM to print media.

Mod Parent Up

[Anti-Trend]

Parent is right, this technology is astounding and it's only in the prototype phase for crying out loud. Will the technology improve in the future? Almost certainly. Does it have useful implications right now in its current form? Absolutely. I wouldn't be incredibly surprised if paper displays become the successor to plasma (when/if plasma becomes more mainstream), but isn't it a bit unfair to expect something to be technologically perfected right out of the starting gate?

-AT

Re:Looks good...

[Anonymous Cowterd]

sorry, i assumed you used kde because it doesnt completely suck like gnome does :)

There's a gumstix in that thing!

[belphegore]

The screenshots appear to have windows icons on them, but the non-screen part of the device apparently has a Gumstix computer in it. Which means that this device is likely running Linux, and just displaying screen dumps from some other device, rather than actually running WinCE.

Re:Looks good...

[belphegore]

The device contains a Gumstix, so although the pictures of the screen appear to have Windows-like icons on them, I'm guessing those are actually just static images dumped from some other device, and just being displayed under linux on this screen. While working on the screen and hardware integration, I don't think Philips will have also had time to port WinCE to the gumstix.

Re:Looks good...

[Virak]

Hmmm, I just noticed your sig. Now it all makes sense. Pretty pictures FTW, eh? Sorry, but I value functionality over shininess.

Re:Looks good...

[Anonymous Cowterd]

Then it surprises me that you don't use windows.

best use for this:

[OwlofCreamCheese]

wallpaper

Cool

[TummyX]

Does it have that plugin that lets you talk to your taelon overlords without them noticing that you're standing in the middle of the resistance hideout?

Sci-fi precedents

[sdfad1]

Slightly off-topic again, but I am appalled. We have stuff from the Red Planet, Earth:Final Conflict, and even Stargate, but where's Star Wars? Remember the Phantom Menace, when Darth Maul first landed in Tatooine in search of Queen Amidala? He unrolled a similar looking device.

Re:Sci-fi precedents

[guaigean]

Difference being the Star Wars prequels weren't innovative, and largely copied other popular sci-fi. Rather than being genre defining, as the originals were. The Star Wars Trilogy (original) is a source for many a good devices though.

Energy Efficient

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd say the fun stuff about this prototype is that is only uses energy when updating (changing) the display. How's that for an energy saver, compared to backlit lcd.
And for an encore: the screen is readable in direct sunlight, like regular paper.
The manufacturer predicts bigger screens in 2 years and color-displays at the end of this decade.

Re: /. Poker

[Titus B. Otch]

I call your bullshit and raise you jealousy.

No joke...

[Anonymous Coward]

...my first thought was "toilet paper".

Very slow response time of 0.5 - 1 s

[Bushcat]

From http://www.polymervision.com/Technology/CurrentSpe cifications/Index.html, it seems the response time is 0.5 - 1 s with a reflectance of 35 - 40% and a contrast ratio of 10:1. Even given it's a first generation product, it's going to look a bit murky.

I see real potential here...

[Titus B. Otch]

I already bring a radio to the baseball games. Why don't the stadiums just broadcast the big screen feeds in wifi too, so I can watch it on my 802.11g rollable paper?

Maybe they could feed snack vendor prices in there to with a javascript pop up window. Sweet...

Re: /. Poker

[dexter riley]

I fold. This metaphor is too rich for my blood.

Obligatory stolen joke from last time round

[Anonymous Coward]

I couldn't find the post by the original author from a couple of years ago when these displays were first mentioned on slashdot.

So its a porno and a tissue? Convenient.

Gripe Gripe Gripe

[Anonymous Coward]

Whats with some of you people? You're all technically competent, probably more so than I. Yet when reading your comments, it's clear you're not looking beyond even today. Look at some of these gripes...

"There's nothing paper-like about reading dot-matrix like resolutions."

"this stuff is much greyer than even newsprint. There's a reason real paper is white"

"Cool prototype and proof of concept, but is it ready for primetime with the specs?"

Of course it isn't! Thats why it's a prototype!! It'll get brighter and more... erm... contrastier... and the resolution will increase. It's not like they expect you to buy and use one today.

Re:Gripe Gripe Gripe

[Anonymous Coward]

You're all technically competent

Er, no we're not, some of us are morons, thankyou very much.

Re:Gripe Gripe Gripe

[FlynnMP3]

"You're all technically competent..."

Better yet, imagine /. contributors as pimply faced pubescent hormonally challenged ADD strung out teenagers that have nothing better to do than to offer their viewpoint of how much things suck. Furthermore, imagine the moderators as 1 step up from that, barely able to look above the /. party line or groupthink.

Heck, I know that is a gross over simplification and stereotype. I look at it this way, imagine bottom of the barrel and when something better comes along, you'll be pleasantly surprised. :)

On topic, this tech is incredibly cool and the fact that it is in a prototype product makes it even cooler. I'm anxious to see how fast this tech advances now that some core problem have been figured out.

-FlynnMP3

Don't be so short-sighted

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been saying since high school (17 years) that we need this technology. I don't think it matter what the resolution is... If you can put a dynamic image on something as flexible and portable as paper, it's worth it.

Consider the possibilities. What does the average person do when they create a document on computer / receive an important e-mail they want to read later / download a manual for a product that they need to view at a different location? They print it. Paper is ultimately versatile because of its portability. A tablet PC just doesn't cut it when you need to slide your chair a few cubicles down to share an idea or present some documentation. Forget a pocket PC - average paper is 8.5x11" for a reason.

With electronic paper, you simply "print" to the medium and take it with you to wherever - the boss's office, home, a meeting room, the bathroom... Doesn't matter. And because it is electronic, the possibilities are almost endless for how you can renew the data it displays. No more having to collect your hard copy from a printer. The "paper" is just like a PDA, with bluetooth or WiFi, and with touch-screen technology you can even update the image from the device itself. It's also cheaper than a PDA (after mass production), so you can give it away without worrying about where your life-in-a-box went for five minutes.

IMHO, the sooner this becomes an actual product, the better, even if it looks like a bit worse than newsprint.

And, as other have said here, this tech will only get better. The medium that is being used is by E Ink, which already provides superior resolution (most likely, the given res was a limitation of the controlling tech, not the medium). Next comes colour. Come on! Persistent, highly visible dynamic image generation on flexible material? This is the arguably the main reason why laptops/tablets/PDAs exist at all.

Re:Don't be so short-sighted

[aichpvee]

With electronic paper, you simply "print" to the medium and take it with you to wherever - the boss's office, home, a meeting room, the bathroom... Doesn't matter.

It'll matter when you need warranty service. Good luck getting them to take it back after it's been flagged for having been in the bathroom!

Re:Don't be so short-sighted

[anthony_dipierro]

I've been saying since high school (17 years) that we need this technology.

Maybe, but I think technology might just skip right past the e-paper stage, and go straight to the 3DVisor

. Yes, paper still has some advantages right now, but these things are already available at $899 a pop. Expensive, yes, but the price will come down eventually, and the price of portable devices is already not that cheap. Maybe best of all it runs off the power of a USB port, so you could hook it up to a PDA and simulate a 105 inch monitor while riding in the bus, on an airplane, sitting on the throne, whatever.

It's already something I'd like to buy, and the features are just going to continue to be expanded. Forget printing out a paper and handing it to your coworker. With 3D capability and a head tracking device, you can just simulate paper right in your visor.

Re:Don't be so short-sighted

[Anonymous Coward]

Rollable, paper-like, used in bathroom... expensive habits of eccentric rich never stop short of amazing!

Now, this "flagged" euphemism sounds quite classy. I'll try to remember it.

Re:Don't be so short-sighted

[sam1am]

average paper is 8.5x11" for a reason

Yes, it is...

what about backlight?

[darmey]

Will it be rollable as well? I can remember Zire 21 and first GBA model - an LCD screen without a backlight is a real pain.

codex

[jlebrech]

I guess the next step after that is the codex version, which multiple pages bound together so you dont have to roll the thing.

Mod parent LAME.....really lame!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, what I just said folks.

5" at 320x240 is pretty good, no?

[eyal0]

My LCD screen here at work is 20" on diagonal, and running a resolution of 1280x1024. Scaled down to 5 inches, that almost exactly 320x240. Sounds like the QVGA screen isn't low resolution, just small in size. Which makes sense, because the technology is surely very expensive now and the market that they're looking for now is PDAs, not laptops.

Plus, there's no doubt that color, bigger screens, and higher resolutions are on the way.

Re:5" at 320x240 is pretty good, no?

[CommanderData]

No, 5" at 320x240 does not sound good to me.

Your point of the 20" monitor at 1280x1024 only serves to open another wound for me- Why they F**K can't we get desktop LCDs with higher resolution than that? Yes I know you can find a few 1600x1200 LCDs at the 20" size, but that is the best you can get. What about 2048x1536, or even higher? I don't want to resort to a CRT to get those resolutions, they make my head hurt no matter what the refresh rate.

My laptop has a 12" screen at 1400x1050 resolution, and it is perfectly readable. This little 12" screen I work on daily has a higher resolution than that 20" monster on your desk! When will companies get with the program and release high resolution desktop LCDs? (Yes, I could just use mutiple monitors. I have 3 on my desk right now. My vision of the 20" monitor above would be high enough resolution to replace FOUR 15-17" LCDs!)

/Rant mode off- sorry, not an attack on you, just frustrated with the industry...

Back to the device in question- Of course I'd love to see it at a higher resolution. There are PocketPCs and Zaurus handhelds that have 640x480 on a 3" screen, the OQO model 1 handtop has 800x480 on a 5" screen, and the Toshiba Libretto U100 has a 1280x768 7" widescreen. To do any useful reading/work with a handheld device it's going to have to reach 800x600. If they get that in a 5" display (even Monochrome high res, like the original Macs!) I will be first in line to buy!

Re:Looks good...

[Dirtside]

you would need to plug in your paper keyboard because paper kde would be just awful (not to mention you'd need a paper mouse to do anything useful).

Yeah, but think how well it would run Paper Mario.

If they can mass produce it ...

[TeXMaster]

It depends on application. If you had read the article, you'd have seen that they do not intend to market the thing directly, but rather

the Readius was created in order to demonstrate the viability of the rollable-display concept in mobile applications and to gain customer feedback at the IFA 2005.

There are things that could benefit from this kind of advancement, even at the current state of things: GPS devices, for example, and even cell phones: even though these days we're used to colorful thingies which can do everything but guarantee you can make phone calls, there some of us (*raises hand*) which want nothing more than the ability to make phone calls and write and read SMS. The ability to do it on a wider screen extensible on purpose would be an extremely nice thing. Think about a one- or two-lines display that can roll up to enclose an entire SMS or addressbook without the need to scroll.

Another major selling point could be the ability to stay 'on' the whole time while still sucking up less battery. How much battery is sucked up by current displays? After all, there is a reason why all cellphones have screen savers or at least the ability to choose for how long after the key presses the display has to stay bright. Of course you might not be able to use your cellphone or iPod as nightlamp anymore ...

While an extensible, always-on display could be a selling feature of some such portable device (oh yeah, did I mention portable music players?) it would still need to be priced reasonably. In-between the current B&W braindead displays and the current fancy color displays of phone-cams.

Re:If they can mass produce it ...

[QuantumG]

the Readius was created in order to demonstrate the viability of the rollable-display concept in mobile applications and to gain customer feedback at the IFA 2005.

I did read the article thank you very much. And I am capable of translating this from marketing speak into "we're not taking any risk so this technology is doomed". If you wanna prove your technology is viable, you make a product. If you don't make a product no-one is going to outlay the enormous cost of being the first customer to prove the technology for you.

Re:If they can mass produce it ...

[JunkmanUK]

That's just nuts. You're disallowing people to demonstrate proof of concepts on the basis that it's not a marketable product? Not only that, but they *have* made a product, albeit a non-commercial one.

There are more reasons to demonstrate this than 'we can sell it'. By doing this they are not only getting feedback from potential customers and hardware developers but also cementing themselves as being one the pioneers of the technology.

If a company designed a new type of PC memory I would imagine they would build a prototype motherboard to demonstrate it to the professional motherboard manufacturers. They may not concern themselves with building the commercial motherboard as it's not in their expertise, rather develop business relations with motherboard manufacturers to allow them to embed it.

Re:If they can mass produce it ...

[SillyNickName4me]

They don't intend to make a product at all. They intend to sell these screens as components to companies that are making products.

Yes, that has been Phillips' way of doing business for a long time now. Seems to work well for them, and we actually get to see quite a few of their inventions, so companies seem to be quite willing to take their 'inventions' and make products based on them.

Re:If they can mass produce it ...

[Mr. Underbridge]

That's just nuts. You're disallowing people to demonstrate proof of concepts on the basis that it's not a marketable product?

I think the statement is even dumber than that. He's saying that all prototypes have to be made at production quantities. Hello bankruptcy.

If a company designed a new type of PC memory I would imagine they would build a prototype motherboard to demonstrate it to the professional motherboard manufacturers. They may not concern themselves with building the commercial motherboard as it's not in their expertise, rather develop business relations with motherboard manufacturers to allow them to embed it.

Exactly. How many graphics cards does Nvidia make again? Bascially 0.

Re:If they can mass produce it ...

[Anonymous Coward]

You, sir, are an idiot.

Re:If they can mass produce it ...

[InvalidError]

What costs the most power in an LCD display is the backlight. The next most costly item is ultra-fast high-current drivers with pre- and post-emphasis necessary to achieve sub-20ms response times... but not all LCDs need to be that fast and sophisticated. Slow low-resolution LCD drivers use far less power than super-fast high-resolution ones.

BTW, ePaper still needs a lighting source for dark environments. Since the backlight is by far the biggest power hog on slow LCD displays, this already kills most of ePaper's relevance for many devices. Since ePaper is incredibly slow to update, scrolling on an MP3 player's display would prossibly be unbearable compared to low-speed LCDs.

The only place where ePaper truly makes sense is for device that only wake up to update an otherwise practically static display... like eBook readers where full-page updates are only necessary when flipping pages.

Re:Looks good...

[khellendros1984]

Yea, sure. Crumple it up, and throw it away when it crashes =p

Design issues

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a prototype - a technology demonstrator - which probably means that most of the design issues have not even been touched.
A practical product would first go by the design department, a consumer test panel, a multitude of PHB's and a lot of engineers before it will even see the light of day.

So, don't worry, when this product is commercial, you will have your buttons on top.

gives whole new meaning to rollups

[b1gn4tb00bs]

But careful you dont smoke em

My Oh My

[Lord Kano]

I can see it now...

On MTV Cribs, you'll have the new flavor of the month in either rap or rock-rap-ska fusion saying "Yeah, everyone's got TVs in the headrests of their cars; but I have TVs in my magazines!"

LK

I for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

...welcome our new rollable, monochromatic overlords!

Two arguments

[Anonymous Coward]

1. How fast do you turn a page ?

2. The screen will stay on the last image shown when turned off.

I suppose this makes your argument a bit less relevant.
Comparing this display to an LCD display is impossible (also with resolution).
The displays are meant for different purposes, even though they have an overlap (both can display e-books, maps).

This is just unacceptable

[Aceticon]

They forgot to show the rank for red cards!!!

Who cares about yellow cards, i wanted to know who toped the red card ranks.

Twistability

[Wills]

Will we be able to twist a Readius into a Moebius?

Re:Twistability

[smithmc]

Or maybe morph it into a Morpheus?

Re:Twistability

[Infinityis]

Yes, but that has the unwanted side effect of throwing it into an infinite loop.

Add a Z81 Processor

[Timberwolf0122]

and stereo sound and you have a roll-up gameboy (after all it only had 4 shade of grey). I can see a lot of potential for this material, Imagine if you will an A4/US Legal sized one with a SD card reader, you could take 1000's of books/magazines with you and save alot of paper with out loosing the feel of reading.

Re:Looks good...

[Luuvitonen]

Yeah! Imagine a Beowulf cluster of these porno mags!

LCD toilet paper rocks !

[tobozo]

I hope it will it be more efficient than a genuine newspaper, the ink of the Times Magazine gives me itches after use ....

I disagree

[hummassa]

As someone who had to read tons of books over a palmIIIx 160x160x4 screen, I think this is really interesting.

196 comments...

[Anonymous Coward]

...and not a single person has pointed out that in all of the press images, the thing is absolutely *littered* with stuck pixels - and I mean dozens of the things!

This is *not*, and never will be, a product

[elodan]

From TFA:

Polymer Vision does not intend to commercialize this concept as a product in the market. Instead, it is demonstrating the fitness of its rollable displays for use in future mobile devices.

yes, it runs linux

[Anonymous Coward]

it's almost certain that this demo is on strongarm linux.

in fact, almost all new displays are prototyped that way. you've got direct access to the framebuffer from user space. you can litterally prototype new drive schemes via shell script. not sure why you'd want to...

There is a market..

[TsukiKage]

currently no market ...well, I want one. That is, I'd like something normally the size of a USB key with a screen the size of, say, an IPAQ screen when in use. Ideally, the device would also contain a projection keyboard, since as PDAs / mobile 'phones get smaller, the input mechanisms rapidly become unusable.

Prototype Rollable Paper-like Display

[Captain Truffle Pig]

i heard of some thing like this a while ago ITS CALLED PAPER

dont waste your money

[sl4shd0rk]

I got one and couldn't get it to go through the printer. Sheesh, what a crock.

Prototype Rollable Paper-like Display Ready Early

[malia8888]

If it is "Rollable" and "Paperlike" in my domicile it is doomed to failure.

Nobody puts paper back on the roll around here!

I have to say...

[Xx Shinwa xX]

Phillips is on a roll.

Building a better mouse trap?

[beforewisdom]

Are the technologists trying to make electronic books really trying to build a better mouse trap?

I can take any book, drop it off the roof of my building, into a puddle, step on it, and it will still function as an information device. An earthquake can come, bury the book beneath rubble, and an archaeologist will be able to dig it up 500 years from now and retrieve the information.

A book can cost only a few dollars, requires no power to use ( except when reading at night ), is made from renewable resources, and is recyclable.

How can electronic books, which will have none of the attributes hope to compete? Is there perhaps another motivation?

Electronic books will bring more corporate control of information and I think this is the motivation given that we have pretty good technology for books already.

Instead of buying a text book which you ( or anyone else ) can read for years to come, you will lease the information, to yourself only, and the information will "vanish" from your e-book once the lease is over. Like software that you will not be able to buy for yourself and give to a friend the same will be true of your books.

Don't laugh, it already happened to a dental school I read about on slashdot about a year ago.

There is no way an electronic book can compete with paper books in terms of price, durability, reusability, and eco friendliness.

However, people laughed at the idea of bottled water and despite years of news reports to the contrary people still buy bottled water believing it to better in quality.

FWIW, bottled water is still more expensive than gasoline ( maybe not for much longer )

Re:Building a better mouse trap?

[epaton]

it doesnt matter, most people dont want to read books multiple times{1} the extra functionality of a ebook reader where you can have a subscription service which eliminates almost all the supply chain is massive.

think how many more people have ipods and pay to download music compaired to what the music market used to be like, it will grow the market and this larger market will make it possible for more specialised publications to thrive.

newspapers can drop the need for printing and delivery costs, this extra profitability will hopefully result in more/better repoters.

the same with highly technical books which the average ./er may actualy like to read but isnt prepaired to shell out £34 and wait 6 weeks for, put a technical subscription service online with read as much as you feel like for £5 a month and you will see the tech books which used to only be read by a few hundred referenced and read by a larger readership, an extention to the principle that amazon makes a lot of money for a long tail of low volume books.

i really dont care if joe public gets gouged a little for the next steven king novel, the publishing industry is a lot more diverse and less corrupt than the music industry, hopefully they will learn a new way to make profit

{1} i know people like us have 20 year old textbooks we still refer to etc but i mean normal people

Re:Building a better mouse trap?

[NewStarRising]

As I see it, buying a one-off e-book reader and then being able to download large amounts of texts on to it is a good thing.
Each e-book should be cheap (no dead-trees needed), eco-freindly (no dead trees needed) and once on my device, easy to manipulate, such as searching for certain text/images.

As to your fear for content-control, this is where peope like GNU, FSF and EFF step in. We already have GPL (and LGPL and BSD etc) software, we shall continue to have open literature.

When I want to read a new book, I can just transfer it across to my reader. If my reader's memory-core becomes full, wipe off some books (making sure I still have copies on my homserver) and load up the new ones.

Yes, the Big Corps will attempt to lock down all of their titles with DRM, but not all authors will want this and will release independantly (such as is happening with music).

As with music, all the good stuff is independant anyway, with the mass-market sucking up mass-produced tripe. The RIAA (and impending WIAA (Writing Industry Ass. of America) will not touch quality work with a barge pole.

There are many advantages to e-books. Searching, backup, accesibility (both for differing media types for disabled people, and for accesing from anywhere. Forget your book? Phone home, log into home server and download copy into a friend's reader)

Yes, there may still be a place for dead tree books, but they are not the ONLY way.

Re:Building a better mouse trap?

[beforewisdom]

Each e-book should be cheap (no dead-trees needed), eco-freindly (no dead trees needed) and once on my device, easy to manipulate, such as searching for certain text/images.

Making e-books will likely involve using minerals and plastics. That means mining. It also means discarded ebooks and whatever chemicals power them being discarded to waste dumps. Paper can be obtained by growing trees or hemp, the later choice being even less environmentally destructive than mining. Both materials are renewable and recyclable unlike resources that will need to be mined to make e-books.

As to your fear for content-control, this is where peope like GNU, FSF and EFF step in. We already have GPL (and LGPL and BSD etc) software, we shall continue to have open literature.

No insult to those fine people, but I can't see them having (or getting) the strength they need to take on corporate America.

Re:Building a better mouse trap?

[narcc]

I have my own problems with e-books -- on one hand, I'd love to carry my entire library with me at all times -- with the added advantage of it being electronically searchable. I don't like the idea that my entire library could be lost by dropping the thing in the sink, leaving it on a bus, having it stolen from my pocket, etc. -- I also don't like the idea that my library might be useless/unreadable by changes in software or hardware (like some old wp docs I've got lying around on a 5 1/4" floppy disk)

This is what I'd like to see happen:
  1) Dead-Tree Media never ever go away! When I buy a book I intend to keep it until I die! (Until a new technology comes along that's better we'll need this kind of super-long-term information system. -- er, except for books like "Windows 95 unleashed" Those might not have much future value.)

  2) Printed books that include an electronic copy of the text for use with e-paper devices for a small additional cost (I refuse to pay an outragious price for an e-book when I could buy the hard-copy version for jsut a few dollars more -- an article I recently read mentioned tiny 30% discounts for e-textbooks that lasted only as long as a single semester. That sucks for the poor student who still pays too much, and gets absolutly nothing in the end! [er, perhaps (s)he gets it all in the "end"])

I guess what I want is the best of both worlds. Is that so much to ask?!

Yes, but how long before...

[Anonymous Coward]

...Lexmark patents it for "single use only"?

Seriously though, this is for sure technology that makes the cheapest printers with priciest copies. Now printer can finally cost less then single "paper" sheet. DRM+DMCA can be put too "good" use to criminalize "paper" "recycling" (erasing the screen).

Imagine...

[Black Perl]

...a möbius strip of these!

What about medical uses?

[mreitzel]

Having been a patient in an hospital isolation wing on several occasions, I can see a huge benefit to such a device (especially if they have input capacity like a pen or touch-screen). Each nurse and doctor could have their own portable document device connected by some wireless technology. No charts would have to be passed (and the germs with them), computer screens and mice would not transfer bacteria and reference materials would be at-hand (and not in a library in some far-away wing). If it is small enough, it could fit in a lab coat pocket, and when expanded could have color photos to help with treatment.

Bedsheets

[rubberbando]

Now only if they could make bedsheets with this technology for all the pr0n lovers out there....

Compatible with zig zag wheatstraw papers?

[ngr8]

Only sort of joking; hard to tell (and it is a prototype) but lint collection has always munged my pda/keyboard etc. Design for everything (with a finite budget).

a beautiful prototype

[Anonymous Coward]

I have been at IFA, where i had the possibility of seeing the rollable display, from Polymer Vision - Philips. It looks pretty good, in terms of refreshment rate (even if only 1s), contrast, brightness, and globally readability. At the same time, the battery is not more a problem (and i know that is a real problem) and i have the possibility of reading outside, with no issues of incident light. People there explained me that; - frontplane: realized by e-ink technology (which is partially financed by Philips in late stage, and a fully start up from MIT) - backplane: realized by Philips technology, the FIRST application for organic electronics for backplane (transistors !!!, which is different from oled used for frontplane) For sure, it is a PROTOTYPE. And the final product will be available in 2 years time... But, it could be a nice device if used as a stand alone device (such a blackberry to receive mails or to read documents on the move) or gadget for mobile phone-PDA (to read in bigger size). But I wonder who is buying this device and for which applications... I read in the slashdot forum the military, the medical... Any other ideas?

resolution

[mtibbitts]

Get me better resolution, color and a touch-screen, and I would love one! In the meantime I will simply click my bulkier existing solution to my belt. Martin Tibbitts

Re:resolution

[Anonymous Coward]

"I will simply click my bulkier existing solution to my belt. Martin Tibbitts"

You have a guy called Martin clipped to your belt? Just so he can read e-books to you?

Dude, you've got one hell of a style.

Interpreting the adspeak

[MythoBeast]

"display provides paper-like viewing comfort with a high contrast ratio for reading-intensive applications..."

Paper-like viewing comfort = you can look at it just like you look at a piece of paper!
high contrast ratio = the dark spots really are darker than the light spots!
reading-intensive applications = anything that doesn't require us to change pixel brightness too often.

The real problem with this kind of device will be the same problem that e-paper applications have had all along. Durability, lifespan, and manufacturing costs. Lifespan was a serious problem with TFT monitors when they were a new technology but now they generally last longer than their backlighting. Manufacturing costs always drop for new products.

Anything that flexes winds up with a durability issue, and this follows a distinct pattern. Products like this become more durable over time until the manufacturing costs get low enough that people can start considering them "disposable". At that point durability and lifespan drop precipitously. Reference the history of floppy drives and cd roms, for instance.

There is no doubt that they'll be able to create a marketable product, just as there is no doubt that what they've already created isn't it. It's just a matter of time.

Re:Mod AC parent scorned /. sysadmin...

[Titus B. Otch]

muahaha...Hook, line, and sinker baby! Reeling 'em in...reelin' 'em in...muahahah

Sounds like some blondes have been wiping there ass with you lately. You ever thought of switching to a high fiber diet?

Slashdot, CONTROL YOUR MODS

[Travoltus]

They're modding stuff as trolls and offtopic that aren't anywhere close to trollish or off topic.

Who in the world thinks that it's off topic or trollish to want to know if Linux runs on a new computer-type device? Sheesh.