TiVo User's Fears Explored

elrous0 writes "In spite of TiVo's continuing insistence that recent appearances of 'red flag' recordings are mere "glitches," the AP is reporting that customers are beginning to get nervous about the new content-blocking feature added in a recent TiVo upgrade. The story quotes Matt Haughey, of PVRblog.com, as saying 'TiVo would be of limited utility in the future if the studios were allowed to do this with regular broadcast content ... This is like cell-phone jammers. What if you couldn't talk on your cell phone? If customers can't do something with their TiVo that they could in the past, they will stop using it.'" We've touched on this topic in the past.

Comments

DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[TripMaster Monkey]

ArsTechnica's Ken "Caesar" Fisher has written a rather insightful article about just this issue. Well worth the read.

As "Caesar" stresses in his article, DRM on TiVo is nothing new. There's really no point in getting steamed at TiVo about this...they're victims of DRM just as much as their customers.

If we're going to fix this problem, we need to do it at this level...not at TiVo's level.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[Shamashmuddamiq]

There's also a good article about audio DRM here. It's nice to know that consumers (at least the savvy ones) are already starting to notice that DRM is encroaching on their freedoms.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice articles except for the preposterous untruths (or mistakes?) such as:

One thing that needs to be really stressed is the fact that people are better off aiming their ire at the content industry, not TiVo. Why? Because copyright holders under US law unfortunately have the ability to dictate things such as "you cannot record this," "you can only watch this one," and "you have 7 days to watch this." Those are legal rights that copyright holders can and have established with distribution partners. Let me clarify this situation.

According to the Betamax decision that is untrue, correct? Please correct me if i am wrong.

But honestly I saw no reason to read it beyond that paragraph.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

^__^

| o|
|_O|_

It's true!

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[Secrity]

Just because TiVo considers itself to be a DRM victim doesn't mean that people should continue to buy DRM crippled TiVo's.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[Guysmiley777]

Saying that the King of the Hill issue was noise smacks of B.S. That that is his opening salvo really weakens that article.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[Rohan427]

As "Caesar" stresses in his article, DRM on TiVo is nothing new. There's really no point in getting steamed at TiVo about this...they're victims of DRM just as much as their customers.

Our Dish Networks DVR does not have DRM and in fact we am legally allowed to record anything we want with it (and we do all the time). It even has instructions in the manual as to how to copy recorded events to VHS (though the same instructions could be used to record to any media).

So, why then is TiVo a victim whereas Dish is not? I'd say because TiVo allowed themselves to be.

PGA

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[calbanese]

Many parts of Betamx were modified by the passing of the DMCA. Some parts of the decision are still valid, but others aren't. The key, if I recall from my studies, is 'substantial non-infringing use' but don't quote me on that. The courts dont't follow Betamax where the DMCA preempts it.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[irc.goatse.cx troll]

I agree. We have a TimeWarner ScientificAtlanta DVR, and not only does it let me record anything, when playing back theres a "Copy to VCR" option that will play the recorded show onto an auxilery input so that you can transfer something without even having to watch it while transfering. Really not a bad device overall.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[squiggleslash]

Unfortunately, you're probably wrong. The Betamax decision stated:

In summary, those findings reveal that the average member of the public uses a VTR principally to record a program he cannot view as it is being televised and then to watch it once at a later time. This practice, known as "time-shifting," enlarges the television viewing audience. For that reason, a significant amount of television programming may be used in this manner without objection from the owners of the copyrights on the programs. For the same reason, even the two respondents in this case, who do assert objections to time-shifting in this litigation, were unable to prove that the practice has impaired the commercial value of their copyrights or has created any likelihood of future harm.

In other words: unlimited time shifting and space shifting was fine in 1984 because it didn't encroach upon content producer's ability to make money from their products. Not only that, but some content producers didn't object to time shifting, therefore Sony making a generic product that did that was legal because there were clearly legal uses.

Roll forward to today, and things have changed fairly radically. The technology exists now to stream individual video programs. DVD sales now encompass all types of visual content. Cable companies make money from "video on demand". Further, it is easy to create, as TiVo has, restrictions that take into account cooperating content producer's wishes. As such, a generic device that just space shifts and time shifts could concievably reduce the commercial value of a product.

For example: I might be tempted to buy, on DVD, the complete season of "One Day To Defeat The Terrorists By Whispering Everything", the new hit Fox show, if I missed various episodes. Fox might release the DVD set with that in mind. However, if one can simply program their DVR to record every single show, they're not likely to buy it, especially if they can transfer the show to tape or DVD-R afterwards. Thus, one of the measures SCOTUS used in making the Betamax decision simply isn't true any more, as technology has improved.

Whether Betamax would get overturned is something for the lawyers to answer. But if I were TiVo, I wouldn't rely upon the Betamax decision to protect myself from potential copyright violation suits, especially in an environment in which other technologies which have tried to rely upon the space-shifting and "Substantially legal uses" defenses, such as Peer to Peer networks, have currently not won the support of the courts. Specifically, the supreme court's ruling has been over-simplified by many of its enthusiasts: it wasn't "Time and space shifting are human rights, man!", it was "Because there's no way today, in 1984, that this technology could reduce revenues for content producers, amongst other things, it's fair use, right now."

What we actually need, rather than this rather shakey Supreme Court ruling, is actual legislation that enshrines certain things people do with content into law. Of course, with half the advocates of this type of thing thinking that copying someone else's song to millions of anonymous strangers is "Fair use", it's going to be hard getting a consensus on what those rights should be, and to ensure Congress actually has something legitimate that doesn't actively damage artists at the end of the process.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[pegr]

Saying that the King of the Hill issue was noise smacks of B.S.
 
yeah? You ever watch "King Of The Hill"?

(Kidding! I love the show! It has the added benefit of driving my wife nuts! :)

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[TheGavster]

Indeed. Timeshifting may hurt DVD sales, but are legally-enforced DRM measures any better if they begin to hurt sales of PVRs? Just as the introduction of radios hurt telegraph sales, so might the introduction of PVRs hurt DVD sales of content available on cable/over the air. It's not a problem, it's just how things work ...

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[bravo369]

it doesn't seem right to me that I can tape the show on VHS and put that episode on my shelf and no one has a problem with it. Now, because the quality is better and I can copy it to a DVD, it's wrong and the companies have a problem with it. As far as i'm concerned, it's the same thing. Just because one is better quality doesn't give them a right to say it's not OK. make up your mind. Either both are wrong or both are allowed. Make a decision and stick to it.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[gwait]

What will have more impact - a letter from one person complaining that he can't record his favourite TV show on his Tivo, or a lobbyist from Tivo complaining that they are going out of business since there is no reason to own a Tivo due to DRM laws?
Vote with your wallet, it has far more impact.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[Cro Magnon]

What's wrong with sending letters to your congress-critter AND to Tivo?

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[TFloore]

For example: I might be tempted to buy, on DVD, the complete season of "One Day To Defeat The Terrorists By Whispering Everything", the new hit Fox show, if I missed various episodes. Fox might release the DVD set with that in mind. However, if one can simply program their DVR to record every single show, they're not likely to buy it, especially if they can transfer the show to tape or DVD-R afterwards. Thus, one of the measures SCOTUS used in making the Betamax decision simply isn't true any more, as technology has improved.

So, we lost a Constitutionally-guaranteed right (vaguely, Fair Use is Court-interpretted, not explicitly mentioned, I admit) due to an advance in technology.

Why doesn't this work to expand Constitutional rights too? Shouldn't a well regulated militia have nuclear arms? How come my electronic communications are not free from unreasonable searches?

Just doesn't seem fair.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[HTH NE1]

it doesn't seem right to me that I can tape the show on VHS and put that episode on my shelf and no one has a problem with it. Now, because the quality is better and I can copy it to a DVD, it's wrong and the companies have a problem with it.

From their point of view, they didn't have a way to prevent you from doing it and had to take the loss. If they thought a purchase history of blank tapes in excess by a non-business would be grounds for a warrant (and it would cost them nothing to do it) they'd be raiding homes daily.

Now they want that control and will threaten anyone who doesn't give them that control to which they feel entitled.

We get mad at TiVo for not having the capital to survive saying no to them.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

(I'm too lazy to log in) .. its not about the directivos. Those aren't on 7.x and likely never will be. It's about stand-alone units. And (as mentioned in other posts) the equivalent stand-alone competing devices (vcrs and other dvrs) all have the exact same protections.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[QuestorTapes]

> For example: I might be tempted to buy, on DVD, the complete season of "One
> Day To Defeat The Terrorists By Whispering Everything", the new hit Fox show,
> if I missed various episodes. Fox might release the DVD set with that in mind.
> However, if one can simply program their DVR to record every single show,
> they're not likely to buy it, especially if they can transfer the show to tape
> or DVD-R afterwards.

Sorry, this argument may be correct, but it may not. The reality is that current DVD products are very different from what you get off the air. If I buy the "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" package rather than taping off of FX, I don't get annoying commercials, editing for time, stupid little animated advertisements for stupid programs that not only interfere with the picture, but increasingly interfere with the *&^%$ DIALOGUE!

If the vendor is smart, I also get other DVD Extras. The most popular DVD extra being the cheapest to produce, the outtakes.

There is insufficient evidence at this time to state authoritatively that allowing the consumer to record the program and even burn it to DVD significantly reduces DVD sales revenue.

> What we actually need, rather than this rather shakey Supreme Court ruling,
> is actual legislation that enshrines certain things people do with content
> into law.

Agreed.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[renehollan]

And what was preventing copyright holders from releasing videocassette sets of entire seasons when the Betamax decision was handed down?

No, I don't buy the argument that the ability to make one's own aggregate takes away from the copyright holder's right to exploit the aggregate of their copyright content: either you give me bits and pieces of stuff at one price (my watching ads and taking the time and effort to record each show), or another (the price for an ad-free aggregate). You can't say that, because the sum of the parts costs less than the whole, that I can't aggregate the parts to make my own whole. And the reason you can't is that you set the price on the parts.

That'd be like selling beer for $1 a bottle and $10 a six-pack and arguing that I can't buy six individual beers.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

Fair use isn't constituationally guaranteed. The Betamax decision was judge made law, not a Constitutionally guaranteed right.

The circumstances that led to the Betamax decision have changed. It is certainly possible that the Supreme Court wouldn't decide the case the same way in 2005 that they did back in the infancy of the VCR (though the Supreme Court decided the case in 1984, the case was originally brought in the infancy of the VCR, well before the movie studios realized that they could make a huge profit from releasing movies on video tape.) E.g., the case specifically mentioned that it was only considering time-shifting because librarying (keeping a copy of a taped show for an extended period of time) was rare. That "fact" is probably not true anymore.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[QuestorTapes]

I'm sorry, I'm really confused by your reply. Are you replying to the parent of my post?

> And what was preventing copyright holders from releasing videocassette sets
> of entire seasons when the Betamax decision was handed down?

The only thing I see that prevented them is the fact that no one had tried it before, so they did not know they could sell them profitably.

Your other arguments seem to be about the parent post; I would guess you are responding to it.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[Snaller]

Of course, with half the advocates of this type of thing thinking that copying someone else's song to millions of anonymous strangers is "Fair use",

Why do you think it isn't?

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[Dachannien]

However, if one can simply program their DVR to record every single show, they're not likely to buy it, especially if they can transfer the show to tape or DVD-R afterwards.

That's why DVDs should contain content with additional value beyond what airs on TV. For example, I've recorded from TV and subsequently watched every episode of Futurama and most episodes of Stargate: SG-1, but I still own both series on DVD, in part because the DVDs have added features (like commentary tracks and other extras) that by themselves are almost worth the cost of the DVDs.

When VHS was the only thing going, the rare TV series available on videotape didn't have extra content, but it didn't have to, because the only serious competition was the same series as it aired on TV. Yes, some people would actually tape and save an entire series, but the quality was much lower, the commercials were firmly entrenched on tape along with the show, and the media was prone to degrade over time (or be eaten by the VCR). Now that the PVR provides a medium of roughly TV quality with commercials removed and that is transferable to another more-or-less permanent medium, the industry must face facts and add value to their product in order to keep up. Litigating their way out of providing the public with something of value above the competition is just laziness.

That said, I do agree that the best solution is to explicitly codify what we're allowed to do with TV programming. I hope it'll happen eventually, but it'll take a lot more public awareness of DRM issues before the outcry over unrecordable content and unskippable commercials is enough to counteract Hollywood's deep pockets.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[Hrodvitnir]

I might be tempted to buy, on DVD, the complete season of "One Day To Defeat The Terrorists By Whispering Everything", the new hit Fox show, if I missed various episodes. Fox might release the DVD set with that in mind.

Dear United States Government,
There is currently something that consumers can do for free. I would like to make money off of this instead. Please make this illegal to do for free so I can sell it to them for a profit.
Thanks!

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[renehollan]

Are you replying to the parent of my post?

Well, to the thread as a whole, but yes, primarily to the parent of your post.

As for new rights, I think that is excessive, though the courts would do well to reinterpret the rights we already have in light of modern technology.

Fair use generally means one can do anything with copyright material so long as it does not infringe on the copyright holder's right to profit from it's exploitation. Historically, this has meant one can't redistribute copies -- that's rather obvious -- and that is facilitated if one can't make copies. But, the latter is not a justification for the former. The Betamax decision shows that mere copying is not, by itself infringement of the copyright: what would the holder argue? That by having paid to see something, and retaining a copy I'm infringing on their right to sell me the same thing again? That's horseshit.

No, what they'd like to argue is that my retaining a copy prevents them from selling me a different thing, one of their copies. But your copyright on the television broadcast should not protect your right to profit from a subsequent sale of a DVD of the content to me: they're different things. It does protect you from my selling of such a DVD myself that I manufacture from your TV broadcast.

Such restrictions are possible, by contract, specifically by license, which is different than the protections offered by copyright. But a license requires offer and acceptance, which does not happen when I watch the TV, or program my VCR to record a program.

Of course, unscrupulous copyright holders would love to bind us ever more restrictively by license, and, if we accept, there is no recourse we'd have. Caveat emptor: what exactly are you buying when you buy that shiny DVD? Our mission should be to educate the lay persons as to exactly what they'd be giving up that they have so far taken for granted, if they are so foolish to accept such licenses.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[zerocool^]

I'd even go further and say

VCR and VHS Recordings : 1980's broadcast TV :: DVD-R's and Tivo : 2005 Broadcast Cable

I completely agree with you, and furthermore, I think it should be taken into account that the "Oh, but DVDs are a better quality medium, and thus should be regulated" idea is complete baloney due to the fact that it's ludicrous to increase the quality of the broadcast (a result of customer demand), and expect the quality of recording equipment to remain static. The recording quality is only a reflection of the broadcast quality. It's just plain dumb.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[Rob the Bold]

Giving aid and comfort to the DRM mob may not be sufficient for you to "get steamed" at TiVo, but it is sufficient to make me consider another option for my PVR. They can consider themselves victims, fine. Now, how are they gonna stop letting themselves be victimized and go after my money again?

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[aug24]

I use p-2-p as a post-hoc VCR. Adverts don't work on me (really: I just don't pay any attention to them at all and got dropped from a marketting research project because I didn't remember seeing any).

Frankly my perspective is "if they broadcast it 'free-to-air' then they have given it away". Telling me that I have to give it back is bullshit. If you don't want me to have it, don't give it away, sell it on a download-only or subscription basis.

J.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[squiggleslash]

Talk like a pirate day was last Monday. Thx. HAND.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo

[Snaller]

So what is it today?

tivo's GOT to be pissed.

[yagu]

This is related to a previous article to which I posted my intent were tivo/"the industry" to begin to rein in my ability to:

• time shift
• burn to dvd
• xfer to computer
• time shift and store indefinitely PPV

I would pretty much dump my tivo... since those are the features of tivo that make television palatable. Since that related article, I've informally caucused friends and family with the possible changes in tivo services/features. Every single one of them agreed they'd not have use for tivo either. (And, they were all very concerned that this could happen -- especially after I verified with each one they were actually on the release of tivo that had these new "features".)

From what I've read, and my correspondence, tivo has resisted as well as they could for as long as they could. I wonder how it must feel at tivo these days when these fucktards start imposing their questionable (unethical) "standards" unilaterally. Sheesh.

Kind of reminds me of and old, old, old Peanuts cartoon... Lucy sees Linus playing with her toys, and in rage takes them all away. Linus is crestfallen, and Lucy taking pity as she walks away tosses him a rubber band, "Here, you can play with this". The next few frames show Linus becoming increasingly fascinated and entertained by and with the rubber band until finally Linus is totally in rapture. Lucy comes back, angrily rips that rubber band from Linus and says, "I didn't mean for you to have that much fun with it!".

Re:tivo's GOT to be pissed.

[garcia]

From what I've read, and my correspondence, tivo has resisted as well as they could for as long as they could. I wonder how it must feel at tivo these days when these fucktards start imposing their questionable (unethical) "standards" unilaterally. Sheesh.

So while resisting flagged content they have opened the doors to additional commercials during fast forwarding? Give me a break. I loved my Tivo (and I love my DirecTivo) but there is absolutely no reason that someone should pay ~$14/mo to have to put up w/ads while they are skipping other ones.

You want to throw ads at me? Charge me less money per month. Otherwise, off w/them.

I have mentioned here before that I complained to customer service (quietly and in a friendly tone) that I would NOT continue w/my Tivo service if they went forward with advertising in their fast-forwarding. I was told that it wasn't a matter of "if it was happening but when". While I still use a Tivo through DirecTV I'm not paying $14/mo for it and I find no real issues w/it.

Now, my real problem is WHY are the content providers allowed to flag the media in the first place and why can't I promptly output that data to "VCR" and watch it at my leisure regardless of restrictions that the providers put in place? What about fair use? Does anyone care anymore?

Re:tivo's GOT to be pissed.

[ChazeFroy]

Hardware: TiVo User's Fears Explored

Tivo only has one user? No wonder they are doing all of this crazy stuff.

I'm guessing the title of the story should say Users' Fears Explored

Re:tivo's GOT to be pissed.

[kfg]

You want to throw ads at me? Charge me less money per month.

Which they can't do because TiVo is not the one receiving the advertising revenue and they already don't make money. Welcome to the wonderful world of being a middle layer service provider. They do not produce or deliver you the content and are not part of that content's economic structure. They sell a video recording device and a service to automate it. It's just a fancy VCR, with a VCR's economics.

Despite the way TiVo has positioned themselves you are still the end product, being sold to advertisers in exchange for viewing material. TiVo cannot change that.

And except for certain elements of the service you can roll your own. They aren't in a long term viable market niche to begin with. They were doomed to die from the outset. Start collecting preDRMineverything hardware. . .

and prepare to be considered a felon for using it.

WHY are the content providers allowed to flag the media in the first place. . .

No, the question is why are hardware providers forced to care about the damned flag.

KFG

Re:tivo's GOT to be pissed.

[KillShill]

but then linus didn't buy the rubberband.

people buy tivos. people buy music cds. people buy dvds. people buy software, including OSs. people buy electronic games.

buying therefore is the key.

you and i buy the right to use any copyright product in whatever way we wish (law already forbids distribution so i needn't mention it).

anything contrary to the above is by definition infringement upon the customers' right to use.

whenever you have artificial restrictions, it's against the spirit and word of copyright law (as ironic as that is...).

content "compilers" (knowledge is neither created or destroyed) want all the benefits and protections of copyright law but refuse to allow the right of customers under the same law to use their products how they wish.

if i were in any position of power, i would start revoking their copyright priviledges so fast, it would make them think Gigli was a blockbuster smash hit at the box office. that goes double for the software industry.

once it is sold, you DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT to tell your customers what they may or may not do with said products.

Re:tivo's GOT to be pissed.

[cd_smith]

You're pissed at Tivo and don't want to pay them on principle, but you're a DirecTV customer? I'm trying to imagine the set of priorities that makes those decisions reasonable. Or perhaps you're not aware that DirecTV is one of the most evil companies currently in existence.

See http://www.directvdefense.org/ for details.

Re:tivo's GOT to be pissed.

[jaredmauch]

You're forgetting that TiVo comes with a Service Agreement and that $12.95 you're paying monthly, or the "Lifetime" Service you paid for up-front allows them to change it at will. Read section 6 of the agreement. You granted them that right. You can terminate that right with them by calling up and cancelling your service.

Re:tivo's GOT to be pissed.

[KillShill]

changing at will is an invalid and illogical clause in contracts.

it's so absurd, i wonder why people keep perpetuating the myth that it's valid or even legal.

how can you agree on a set of terms that keep changing?

Already gave mine back to the store....

[Anonymous Coward]

so there...

I've already gotten rid of my TIVO.

[jasonhamilton]

They are of no use to me anymore. A slightly better interface than the rest just doesn't cut it.

Re:I've already gotten rid of my TIVO.

[mysqlrocks]

Slashdotters my start dumping TiVo but I think it will be awhile before the mainstream catches on to this or cares.

Re:I've already gotten rid of my TIVO.

[kabz]

People are going to start *caring* very very quickly as soon as programs start expiring automatically and can't be saved.

If I was TIVO, I'm not sure I would have made the entire screen red. That's really going to upset people. Maybe this will become the 'RED SCREEN OF DEATH' for TiVO.

Re:I've already gotten rid of my TIVO.

[MrRogers2]

People are going to start *caring* very very quickly as soon as programs start expiring automatically and can't be saved.

And this is exactly how it should be. Let's all get up in arms over things we don't care about? If you watch pay per view and this gets in the way of how you use your TiVo then cancel your subscription, what better way to make your point? (Well, not you as I imagine you're not a TiVo user.)

As soon as this hits a show I want to watch and keep I'll be canceling my subscription. I debated paying the lifetime fee for my TiVo, but then I give up the only real way I've got to tell TiVo to shove it if I need to.

Re:I've already gotten rid of my TIVO.

[Altus]

the real threat to TIVO isnt that its relatively small customer base will dry up... its that new DVR customers are going to be more likely to get their DVR from their cable/sat provider and never give TIVO a first look... after all... why buy a box when you can get one from your cable company... sure, its like 7 bucks a month... but the TIVO subscription is more than that and you generally have to buy a box.

I dont think their superior interface will carry the day.

of course this is probably the reason that they agreed to write software for the comcast boxes... it is unlikely that they would succeed as competition so why not make your money selling their quality interface.

Re:I've already gotten rid of my TIVO.

[discstickers]

of course this is probably the reason that they agreed to write software for the comcast boxes... it is unlikely that they would succeed as competition so why not make your money selling their quality interface.

I can't wait til these boxes come out. I like the Tivo interface, but they don't have a box that can record HD from cable. As much as I dislike Comcast, they are far cheaper than Tivo.

So what's new now?

[Kelmenson]

The AP article seems to be discussing exactly what was already discussed to death both here and on the TiVo-user sites. What's going to be different between this discussion and the linked, previous, Slashdot discussion?

Re:So what's new now?

[op12]

Score:-1, You Must Be New Here

Re:So what's new now?

[Str8Dog]

this thread will have people complaining about reposts?

Re:So what's new now?

[slashrogue]

Why, your Information post, obviously! ;)

Re:So what's new now?

[MarkGriz]

"What's going to be different between this discussion and the linked, previous, Slashdot discussion?"

Some fancy CSS

Re:So what's new now?

[KillShill]

more coverage.

not every /. reader can read all the stories and discussions every time they come around. plus this is a good story that wraps up many issues in one. namely the copyright cartel issues and the DRM/Insidious Computing matters.

redundancy can sometimes be useful... sometimes.

echoing to the choir.

All The More Reason

[dringess]

To build your own PVR with MythTV or BeyondTV. It's more work, but you have more control.

Re:All The More Reason

[ResQuad]

I'd have to say it would be rather intresting to see the site stats for these sites. Does traffic spike after news like this comes out for a TiVo?

I personally dont have a tivo (hell, I dont have cable or satalite or anything), but after news like this I'd very very very worried about getting one. I'd build a MythTV - or find someone to build/sell me one (if I wasnt capable) - I'm sure there are plently of people selling pre-build MythTV boxes.

Re:All The More Reason

[tktk]

Building your own PVR is a great idea but:

First, not everyone has the skills or time to build one.
Second, if you build one for friends and family, you become their tech support.

Re:All The More Reason

[cdmz1]

What a dumb comment. Some of us don't want to spend the time to tinker with that shit just to watch TV. Most of us TiVo owners know about Myth and Beyond - if we had the inclination to DIY we would have.

What cracks me up is that Slashdot used to be "WE LOVE TiVo because its based on Linux, way to fight the man!!" to "Screw TiVo they are the MAN with the DRM, DIY with some 0.x release of MythTV! Way to Fight the MAN!"

Re:All The More Reason

[Mr. Underbridge]

I haven't heard anything about it for a while, but wasn't there supposed to be a Myth-friendly distro around? It would be great if a Myth distro existed with pre-loaded support for all the major capture cards. Then you'd be able to have your PVR up and running an hour.

Re:All The More Reason

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup - the distro exists and is called knoppmyth. There's active development, a wiki with user-generated documentation and everything. Even still, it's not that easy to get working, but it's getting easier all the time. The latest Knoppmyth based on MythTv 0.18.1 is very stable and works really, really well.

Re:All The More Reason

[Cpt_Kirks]

Skills?

Buy a mid-range PC.

Install Tuner Card.

Install Software.

Not a lot of skill (or time) involved.

Mine, I built from scratch in a toolbox, using a mini-itx board. That took a little skill and time, but nothing killer.

Re:All The More Reason

[Change]

There's KnoppMyth.

Re:All The More Reason

[Junior J. Junior III]

I don't know much about MythTV, yet. Is it possible to get MythTV running on TiVo hardware? That would be great, since you'd have an all-in-one, inexpensive appliance-like solution, but with the level of control that actually makes having such a thing desirable. Can this be done?

Re:All The More Reason

[Anonymous Coward]

MythTV is great if all you want to do is CAPTURE video. I also want to playback the captured
video __ON MY TV___. TiVo can do this. If you read the MythTV HOWTO and even go down the
path of trying to deploy one of these, you will quickly find that TV output has pretty much
been ignored. What cards really actually work? What driver building hell do I have to go
through to get s-video or composite out to actually work? at a normal NTSC scan rate?

I use a TiVo because I can actually watch the video I have recorded on my TV. I'll check back with MythTV when it is no longer a write-only solution.

And in the meantime, I will bash TiVo hard for going down some MPAA appeasing DRM path-- because that is pretty much bait-and-switch.

Re:All The More Reason

[enrico_suave]

"Does traffic spike after news like this comes out for a TiVo?"

A little ;) But it's more from folks in the blogosphere saying things like "screw tivo i'm gonna roll my own" and linking to a "tivo alternative"

IF a large site like /. or boingboing does that, obviously that has a direct effect... but I don't think like there's an upswell of google searches for DIY PVR when news like this breaks... it's still a pretty niche (but important!) concept/hobby and it's just getting to the point where people know what a tivo does, for them to also be aware that they can get comprable, DRM-less DVR functionality from a DIY PC (or mac) PVR. Furthermore the concept of DRM doesn't really hit home with the average person until they discover what they CANT do... like the person who tries to make a backup of their kids DVD to VHS or the person who buys an upconverting DVD player to find out it is crippled out of the box and will only output 480p via analog component outputs (or rather 1080i/720p ONLY via hdmi)

So... I guess it's not a huge upsurge of traffic, but it does raise awareness and the hobby/niche has been steadily growing... imho.

e.

Re:All The More Reason

[jabbathe]

I agree to an extent, but a couple of thoughts....one, it isn't as difficult as you might think. As a poster below stated, there is mysettopbox.tv. I use a bootable CD of this on a computer that normally boots to winxp off the hard drive. My 9 year old can set it up. Two, you can do much more than watch tv if you set up a computer. I routinely browse the web (quick switch during the phillies game to confirm that stat I'm arguing with someone about), capture digital video and photos, play mp3's (madman plug!), play quake, etc.

Re:All The More Reason

[enrico_suave]

knoppmyth as previously mentioned... also a Fedora Core version MythDora is cool new addition...

Jarrod wilson's mythtv fedora core guide is one of the better/easiest to follow if you want to roll mythtv by hand (as opposed to knoppmyth/mythdora installation)

Re:All The More Reason

[bmongar]

The problem I see with the Myth Beyond type solutions is decoding the premium cable chanels. Sure I could have my cable tuner change chanels then myth record chanel 3 but that doesn't allow for watching one and recording another.

Re:All The More Reason

[Dun Malg]

Is it possible to get MythTV running on TiVo hardware?

Nope. TiVo hardware is a closed, special-purpose device. It happens to use Linux as its OS, but beyond that it bears little resemblance to any commercial off the shelf system.

Re:All The More Reason

[Gabey]

It would be cool, but no:

Can I run MythTV on my TiVo?

Re:All The More Reason

[tktk]

I can do it but my little sister, or mom?

I'm not so fearful of my own 1st point. But I really don't want to be tech support whenever some show doesn't get recorded.

Re:All The More Reason

[accessdeniednsp]

Except, of course, when you have to 'upgrade' your TV card (or whatever) to support certain new channels (or even if it just dies), and then the "new" card now enforces DRM crap in hardware (it's inevitable). Then you're no better off than TiVo, etc. Only a year or so behind.

The best bet is a.b.m on Usenet. Period. Grab the Xvid or VCD images and watch them with your Myth-a-like device.

It sucks, but it's also the truth :(

Re:All The More Reason

[barc0001]

Build a Myth box for your sister or mom. I built one last year in October. Since I built it, I have had to do literally ZERO low-level maintenance on it. The only gotcha I found was it tended to freak out a bit if it ran out of hard drive space, which happened twice since I used a relatively puny drive. But in that respect, it's not a lot different than other PVRs. Just make sure there's space, and life's wonderful. It even handled unexpected power outages with aplomb, including the time I unplugged its UPS to move it to a different plug and the UPS turned out to have a dead battery. As soon as the Myth box was plugged back in, it auto booted and came right up and automatically went back to recording the program it was storing when the plug got pulled.

One more note: Using the web interface to manage all of it extends its usefulness by a factor of 100. I never do any of my program management from the TV interface itself with the remote. Much faster and easier to use a browser. You can search programs easily, alter recording schedules and formats, and delete unwanted shows all from the browser. Very slick.

Once the box was up and running, I'd have no reservations whatsoever about handing it off to one of my non-tech family members. And these relations are the same ones who have trouble with the concept of a directory on a disk.

Re:All The More Reason

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy crap - I think you hit the saturation point of acronyms per sentence. Don't get me wrong, they're all fairly common acronyms, but just to enumerate them...

DIY
PVR
DRM
DVR
PC
DVD
VHS
HDMI
IMHO

Back in 1980, the average person might recognize one or two of those, techies might have recognized three or four. Today I'd bet that 90% of the people who read your post recognized them all. Not to single you out or anything - the internet is full of acronyms. It seems like every community has their own set of generally accepted acronyms with /. probably having one of the bigger acronym lexicons.

Re:All The More Reason

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a card carrying member of the Acronym Supporting Society

Re:All The More Reason

[Kevin DeGraaf]

MythTV is great if all you want to do is CAPTURE video. I also want to playback the captured
video __ON MY TV___. TiVo can do this. If you read the MythTV HOWTO and even go down the
path of trying to deploy one of these, you will quickly find that TV output has pretty much
been ignored. What cards really actually work? What driver building hell do I have to go
through to get s-video or composite out to actually work? at a normal NTSC scan rate?

If you have a PVR-350, you just tell Myth to use that card's MPEG2 decoder output. Otherwise, you either convert your video card's VGA output to NTSC composite video using a sub-$100 converter box, or you get a video card whose composite &/or S-Video output(s) "just works". I use a GeForce2 something-or-other and there was exactly zero software work installed -- the POST, kernel boot, and X display all go out over the S-Video connector automagically.

Nice troll, though.

Re:All The More Reason

[unitron]

" Build a Myth box for your sister or mom. I built one last year in October."

Care to share the details of what hardware, OS, and recording software?

Re:All The More Reason

[RedWizzard]

MythTV is great if all you want to do is CAPTURE video. I also want to playback the captured video __ON MY TV___. TiVo can do this. If you read the MythTV HOWTO and even go down the path of trying to deploy one of these, you will quickly find that TV output has pretty much been ignored. What cards really actually work? What driver building hell do I have to go through to get s-video or composite out to actually work? at a normal NTSC scan rate?

What are you on about? Most MythTV users output to TV. It's not hard.

Re:All The More Reason

[barc0001]

Care to share the details of what hardware, OS, and recording software?

Sure. MythTV is the software, but I used the Knoppmyth version of it to make the install go quicker. I also used standardized hardware to lessen the screwing around factor and just get it up and running. From a blank hard drive to recording TV took me about 3 hours. Hardware is as follows:

Hauppauge WinPVR-250 capture card
Generic GeForce FX-5200 video card (chosen for the S-video out, Nvidia chipset to lessen the screwing around, and the passive heatsink)
80 GB Seagate EIDE hard drive
Asus mainboard and an Athlon 1600XP CPU
512 MB DDR SDRAM.

Brief notes on the above:

- 256 MB of memory works all right as well which is what I started with. I went to 512 after a bit of tinkering and just left it in the system as RAM was cheap like chips at that time, but saw no real gain in performance. Not that there was an issue in performance to begin with.
- More hard drive space is better. If I was to do it over again (and I probably will in the next few months) I'd use at least a 200GB hard drive. OS and swap (MythTV buffer space, not OS swap) chew up about 12 GB, which left only about 66 GB of usable space for programs. Decent quality programs eat 2.2GB/hour, so I have only enough room for about 32 hours of TV. A 200GB drive would yield almost 90 hours.

Re:All The More Reason

[barc0001]

MythTV is great if all you want to do is CAPTURE video. I also want to playback the captured
video __ON MY TV___. TiVo can do this. If you read the MythTV HOWTO and even go down the
path of trying to deploy one of these, you will quickly find that TV output has pretty much
been ignored. What cards really actually work? What driver building hell do I have to go
through to get s-video or composite out to actually work? at a normal NTSC scan rate?

????? And I say this with the greatest respect: What load of asinine blather is this? TV out with a cheap Nvidia card equipped with an S-video plug took me like 15 minutes to get going. I had a couple of little hiccups setting up my Myth box, but I'll tell you, TV output wasn't one of them. Stick to mainstream hardware and you'll be fine.

the "noise" defense seems a little weak

[enrico_suave]

noise tripping this flag seems unlikely Other commentary on O'reilly blog

Re:the "noise" defense seems a little weak

[jandrese]

Yeah, I didn't belive the "noise" argument either. A lot of people reported this and many of them were in the same area. I think either the Fox guys were over protective, or they had some oddball equipment installed that accidentally tripped the flag.

Re:the "noise" defense seems a little weak

[Randseed]

Probably the latter. Think about it: If FOX doesn't let your TiVo record the show, then chances are you won't watch it. There is then no chance you will see their commercials. If FOX does let you record the show, then chances are you will watch it, and maybe see the commercials. Then FOX gets to take advantage of the stats that the TiVo sends back to, well, TiVo. In other words, even if you're skipping commercials, there's really no downside for FOX letting you record the thing, and there is a downside for turning on the DRM flag.

Me? I'm waiting for the class action against TiVo so I can join in.

Re:the "noise" defense seems a little weak

[Blkdeath]

Me? I'm waiting for the class action against TiVo so I can join in.

Class action? Sue? Why? Isn't TiVo a commercial entity? Are you forced to use their product? Does it impact your live negatively if you can't record a Family Guy episode to watch at your leisure?

Build a DiY system, rally behind another company to create an open system (or create one yourself) but sue them? Why not just cancel your service and tell everyone you talk to how horrible they are instead?

Re:the "noise" defense seems a little weak

[Moofie]

If they sell me a product that does A, B, and C, and then (at some time after my purchase) deactivate C, then they've taken something away from me that I paid for.

That's the problem, and that's why they might be sued. (I say might, because I don't know whether it will in fact happen or not...)

Precarious position

[jav1231]

The growing concern by broadcasters and Hollywood puts TiVo in a spot. However, I think standing by their customers and taking this challenge head-on is a good approach. Their customers want the features they have grown accustomed to. I think it's in their best interest to fight for their customers here. Like digital music, TV is at the crossroads of a new way of viewing movies and shows. We can hope they stand at this juncture and say, "Look, Guys, this is not 1975. It's time to move into the new age here."

Re:Precarious position

[rovingeyes]

OK I don't get it. Why would any corporation fight for its consumers or customers unless it involves smoking or guns. Even in 1975, if Tivo existed, it would have played by Media company rules.

Re:Precarious position

[Secrity]

In what way is TiVo standing up for their customers? I don't think that cooperating with Macrovision by including DRM features is standing up for it's customers.

Re:Precarious position

[jav1231]

I'm saying that they should and hopefully will.

Re:Precarious position

[justforaday]

The point is that they had a chance, didn't, and now it's too late. The "feature" is already out there, waiting for the networks to use it. Were TiVo to roll out a new update that removes this "feature" then that would change things. Until then, they've already sided against the customer.

Hax0r it

[Lakee911]

It's only a matter of days before a hack will surface on how to bypass any anti-recording-flag. The underground TiVo community is huge and need not worry die hard TiVo fans. Will it prevent casual TV recording? Maybe. Will it hurt the TiVo company? Probably. Can we still record what ever we want? Sure! Jason

Re:Hax0r it

[Guysmiley777]

While they're at it can they get a hack made so I can use my Zen Sleek MP3 player with Linux? Or at least NOT WinXP?

Friggin DRM. Grumble grumble.

Re:Hax0r it

[hackstraw]

It's only a matter of days before a hack will surface on how to bypass any anti-recording-flag. The underground TiVo community is huge and need not worry die hard TiVo fans. Will it prevent casual TV recording? Maybe. Will it hurt the TiVo company? Probably. Can we still record what ever we want? Sure!

The thing is that we have to go out of our way and break the law to do what is "normal" and has been allowed for over 20 years and TV stations are still in business.

"In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity."

-- Hunter S. Thompson

And to invoke Godwin's law and end the discussion:

"It's so convenient to have a system where everyone is a criminal."

-- Adolf Hitler

Re:Hax0r it

[Dun Malg]

It's only a matter of days before a hack will surface on how to bypass any anti-recording-flag. The underground TiVo community is huge and need not worry die hard TiVo fans. Will it prevent casual TV recording? Maybe. Will it hurt the TiVo company? Probably. Can we still record what ever we want? Sure!

Hah! Sounds exactly, almost word for word, like what was said about the P4/P5 access card for DirecTV when the P3 card encryption stream was turned off. There used to be a huge, vibrant DTV hacking community. Now there ain't squat. Nothing is 100% secure, but given enough time they can make it so difficult that it'll no longer be worth the bother. In the case of DTV, most of the die-hard hackers dumped Dave (DirecTV) and picked up with Charlie (Dish Network). Though now with all the streams on Dish going to Nagra2, I wonder how many people will just give up...

Re:Hax0r it

[karnal]

Gnomad2. Haven't used it with my Zen Xtra yet - but says will work with your Sleek (without some playforsure upgrade???)

http://gnomad2.sourceforge.net/?

Re:Hax0r it

[Castar]

I think this is exactly the wrong approach to take to DRM - and perhaps it's why DRM has done as well as it has. The savvy user says "Oh, DRM isn't so bad, I can get around it..." and the CEO says, "Well, we put in DRM and people are still paying for our service!" and there aren't any serious repercussions.

If, instead, everyone were to drop a service like a rock when DRM hit, no company would implement it, regardless of the pressure. Even legislation would have a hard time succeeding in the face of that sort of failure.

iTunes is the worst example of this, IMO. Sure, it's easy to bypass it, but it's getting everyone used to the idea that their music is not their own - it's "licensed" rather than "owned". When something worse comes along, it will look like closing a loophole, rather than stripping away a right.

Re:Hax0r it

[bdjohns1]

It's existed even before the flag was a glimmer in a Hollywood lawyer's eye. I've got my Tivo hacked to prevent the shows from being recorded encrypted on the hard drive int he first place. Then, I can extract them at my leisure to my PC, and do whatever I want. This isn't the DRM-ed "Tivo to Go" crap either. Fully unencumbered MPEG-2 files.

Re:Hax0r it

[DA-MAN]

The thing is that we have to go out of our way and break the law to do what is "normal" and has been allowed for over 20 years and TV stations are still in business.

I didn't realize there was a law that said I couldn't modify a TiVo I own. What law would I be breaking?

Re:Hax0r it

[hackstraw]

What law would I be breaking?

DMCA for one.

Well that answers that

[Photon Ghoul]

I was just on the verge of diving into the modernity and purchase/subscribe to a DVR. Tivo was one of the top choices - but forget it now. What other good choices are there, really? Besides spending a few grand on building my own.

Re:Well that answers that

[screevo]

Building your own doesnt take much. Put together a basic computer with a lot of storage, a DVD burner, and a good TV tuner and buy a program like ShowShifter.

I did it for about 600 bucks, actually less now that I run it under Linux and free DVR software. Works like a charm.

SM

Re:Well that answers that

[screevo]

Heres some links for good hardware to start with.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82 E16856101111 - I actually use this very one. Comes with some excellent media center software, a remote control, built in stereo Hi-Fi unit (can operate independantly of the rest of the computer). Essentially, you end up with a DVR/Media Center/Hi Fi Stereo unit.
http://www.newegg.com/product/Product.asp?Item=N82 E16856101233 - Intel-based version of above
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82 E16814127987 - Reccomended tuner to the above hardware. I use a cheapy ATI TV Wonder that I've had for a few years anyway

You dont need a high power processor, a ton of RAM, or anything beyond the on-board video, unless you plan on doing things beyond DVRing. I have a bit of experience with this, so drop me a message if you want any furter info.

Re:Well that answers that

[LordKronos]

You don't need a few grand to build your own. I started building my own myth box 2 days ago. Got it pretty much fully working last night. I spent $130 on a Hauppauge PVR-350, which has a great quality TV in/out with hardware MPEG encoder/decoder. Since the PVR-350 is doing the tough work, it's a very light load on the CPU. I threw it on an extra P3-450, and live TV (simultaneos record and timeshifted playback) still leaves it about 75-80% idle time.

So you can see the system requirements are very light. If you don't have any old hardware laying around, then even buying some new bottom-of-the-line stuff should do good with this card. Just off the top of my head, $100 each for CPU, motherboard and hard drive, $50 for memory, $30 each for case, CD/DVD drive and a cheap VGA card, plus $130 for the PVR-350, and you are only looking at $570. Actually, if you watch around, you can routinely find 200GB hard drive's for $40-$50 after rebate, so that puts you just over $500....plus your time (whatever you value that at).

Re:Well that answers that

[Anonymous Coward]

What are the noise levels of that first unit you linked to? How many fans (don't forget the PSU) and what sizes? Are they replaceable with quieter ones?

Re:Well that answers that

[screevo]

Theres two fans on the CPU cooler. It's pretty quiet, you can't hear it over the hum of a powered on TV. I'd imagine you could add more, but being a small form factor case, it gets quite cramped. The only additional thing I'd suggest is, MAYBE, putting a expansion slot fan in ther (one powered by a molex connector). The case will run hot depending on your chip and the load, but i've never had any major problems.

Re:Well that answers that

[Anonymous Coward]

The dish network DVR that's free when signing up for dish isn't bad. One box controls two tv's in different areas of the house (the second tv uses an RF remote). It has two tuners so can record two shows at a time. the UI isn't as polished as tivo's, but it does everything i want it to do and is a lot cheaper than tivo.

-an ex tivo user

Re:Well that answers that

[boomgopher]

Besides spending a few grand on building my own. My rig was pretty cheap, easy to set up, it's small, and works great:

Gateway 9000-series Laptop with TV-out USB2 PCMCIA Card $20
WinTV USB2 MPEG encoder + remote $100 with rebate
SageTV PVR Software $80
USB2 external drive for storage $100
Zap2IT subscription comes free with Sage

So I spent less than $400 without even trying to save cash. I'm certain you can do it for a lot cheaper, especially if you go the MythTV route

Re:Well that answers that

[boomgopher]

(comment choked on less than symbol)
Gateway 9000-series Laptop with TV-out is less than $100 on ebay.

Re:Well that answers that

[kesuki]

For that solution I'd recommend going with the semptron getting a barton core athlon XP would have a slight edge in performance, but for a DVR the semptron should be plenty fast, and can be had real cheap :) 512M ram, a 300-320 gig HD, and a DVD-burner and you've got a pretty nice PVR, throw a PSX style controller USB device and you've got a kick ass emulator station too ;) and the total hardware costs should be right around $500.

but really many slashdotters will have a Pc of that generation lying around. all you need is the capture card, and a big HD...

Re:Well that answers that

[slashname3]

You can spend a couple of grand on a DVR box you build yourself but it does not have to cost that much.

I just put together a second mythtv box that totals out at around $800. And that could be shaved down if you spent more time looking for the parts. Used an ECS 760GX-M Socket 754 SiS 760 GX Micro ATX AMD motherboard with an AMD Sempron 3100+ CPU, 2GB ram (could go with 512K), a Maxtor 300GB harddrive, Plextor PX-740A/SW-BL DVD drive/burner. A $60 case that included a power supply and the caputre cards is the only other thing you need. I used a PVR-350 card and had planned to use a PVR-500. However I will be replacing the PVR-500 with a PVR-250 card.

FC4 loaded on this motherboard with no problems, video, sound, NIC all detected out of the box. Use ATRPMS to install mythtv-suite and you have a system ready to go once you complete the configuration. Just follow the documentation.
Next project is to build diskless frontend systems for the other TVs in the house.

Re:Well that answers that

[deanoaz]

I'm not sure what's still available, but when I replaced my main home PC earlier this year I bought a Sony VIAO that came with a 3.2 GHZ P4, 180 GB SATA Drive, 1 GB RAM, DVD burner, and Video input/output card with tuner. I came with Windows XP Media Center 2005 already installed and configured to do PVR.

It works great and I use if for everything. I'm amazed at how many things it can do at once, like burn DVD's, record TV, web surf, etc.

As I recall, it cost about $1400. The nice thing is it's also very quiet and there was hardly any setup to get it working.

Re:Well that answers that

[Anonymous Coward]

get yourself a vcr! and a bunch of blank tapes!

Re:Well that answers that

[Darby]

Zap2IT subscription comes free with Sage

I think they market speaked you ;-)

Zap2IT is free regardless. You just need to do a survey every several months.

Re:Well that answers that

[unitron]

"I use a cheapy ATI TV Wonder that I've had for a few years anyway."

Can you get full screen NTSC video out of that thing (to go into the video input of a TV) with just the recorded television program and none of the computer desktop screen? Do you have to run the computer's video monitor at 800 x 600 in order to use the ATI card?

Re:Well that answers that

[screevo]

Yeah, I can use it full screen. The higher the desktop resolution, the grainier the image, but fullscreen works. It doesnt look bad, but it's definitely not Hi Def, ya know?

Although, if you have it going into a TV, you probably WANT to use a low resolution. Good luck reading PC text on a TV screen if you have the resolution jacked up. At 1024.768, it gets nigh unreadable.

Re:Well that answers that

[Rich0]

Or, you can have a DirecTivo for free.

That is my big dilema. My Tivo is on its last legs. However, I won't settle for less than two tuners, and I'm eerie about re-encoded video quality. To use myth I'd need to get two sat receivers and attach them to a myth box. $570 is a LOT to pay for a DVR, when you can get the R10 for free or the R15 for a yet-to-be-determined sum. I keep thinking about myth - every time my tivo acts up I just think of the benefits of having something I can just dig into and fix on my own. However, even if I had to replace my Tivo every year I'd probably still not break even.

Obviously this is largely the result of below-cost marketing. However, I guarantee that DirecTV is not paying $570 per unit. Myth really needs somebody to come up with a cheap hardware solution to make it work...

Re:Well that answers that

[unitron]

I've got an older AIW card (2 actually, but only one works). What I want is for when I KVM to the computer in which it is installed I get the desktop on my SVGA monitor at 1024 x 768 with the tuner program minimized but going into the switcher feeding my TV I want just the TV picture (NTSC 15,750Hz horizontal, 60Hz vertical) and I want it to look at least as good as the output of my VCR at the lowest speed.

If I wanted to run a computer on a TV I'd dust off that Apple IIe that's lying around here somewhere.

I was hoping that perhaps you'd found some way to get it to do what I haven't been able to.

A future headline?

[dauthur]

"Ford introduces mile-limiter on cars to lower gas consumption. Depending on how much money you pay for the car, you might be able to travel 10 miles or 100 a day. Apparently, not compatible with older versions of their cars, because limitations on features for something you pay for does sound absurd. Potential Ford drivers urged to switch to GM cars by current Ford drivers".

I don't know where I was going with this.

Re:A future headline?

[RetroGeek]

Depending on how much money you pay for the car, you might be able to travel 10 miles or 100 a day

This already exists.

Look at any lease agreement and you will see milage limitations. Since I commute about 100 Km (60 miles) per day, I am way above the lease limitations.

So I must pay more for the car.

Re:A future headline?

[dauthur]

Touché. But that's just the lease limitations, not an actual governer of sorts that prohibits travel over the limit.

I love your signature, by the way. Very original.

Re:A future headline?

[Blkdeath]

Look at any lease agreement and you will see milage limitations. Since I commute about 100 Km (60 miles) per day, I am way above the lease limitations.

So I must pay more for the car.

No, you pay for the portion of the car's depreciation you utilize. You'd be in the same (if not worse) boat if you financed the car instead. Pay $30,000 for a car, trade it in 4 years later valued at $10,000 and you've spent $5,000/year. You've also paid taxes and interest on that $10,000 whereas in a lease you only pay tax on the depreciation.

If you calculate your actual mileage requirements when leasing a vehicle you can build them into the lease and save money in the end (opposed to paying $0.xx/km when you turn the vehicle in).

Re:A future headline?

[RetroGeek]

Hmmm, we went over all of this with the dealer. At the time it actually was cheaper to buy the car outright, rather than lease, over the long term.

Of course, we keep cars longer than a lease agreement....

Re:A future headline?

[Blkdeath]

Hmmm, we went over all of this with the dealer. At the time it actually was cheaper to buy the car outright, rather than lease, over the long term.

Of course, we keep cars longer than a lease agreement....

While your car payments may be cheaper, many people find the increase in maintainance (brakes, tires, fluids, wipers, and major components out of warranty) become more expensive in the long term. On paper, yes, quite often it does work out to be cheaper to finance than to lease but it's not neccesarily due to the mileage alone.

Interest rates and residuals play a major part in your decision. Now, for example, is the best time of year to lease a new car. 2006 models are just hitting the lot so their residual values are at their highest. Every quarter they will drop which raises your monthly payment.

On a similar note, financing a new 2005 model right now is highly advantageous because all major manufacturers want to clear out old inventory. As a result, interest rates and prices tend to drop.

their fears are well founded

[Surt]

TiVo has caved into the content producers, and handed over control of the DRM process to them. The recent accidental flagging of content in this way proves it is out of TiVo's hands, and within the realm of control of the broadcaster. That makes it only a matter of time before broadcasters will begin to use this feature. If TiVo wants to retain loyal customers, they need to take back control: they should require digital authorization codes for DRM features and DRM the DRM so that only TiVo can authorize DRM restrictions on content. Unfortunatley, even then TiVo users will have to worry about whether TiVo will allow DRM on content only in reasonable situations, or if TiVo will cave into monetary or legal pressures and allow it on anything the broadcasters want.

The end of TiVo's usefullness is approaching quickly. Probably time to get some more developers working on the open source alternatives.

Re:their fears are well founded

[badxmaru]

The problem is that Tivo's between a rock and a hard place. If it passes off DRM to content providers, it faces the wrath of its consumer base. If it tries to set its own authorization, it faces suing out of existence on the grounds that it's failing to comply with enforcing copyrights of televised material. Bad place to be.

Re:their fears are well founded

[Surt]

They should face up to the lawsuits. That's how the VCR won.

Re:their fears are well founded

[ZorinLynx]

Anyone know what ReplayTV is doing when it comes to all this? We always hear about TiVo.. but I've played with ReplayTV boxes and they seem to be the same thing but with less restrictions (30 second skip, etc.)

How come TiVo gets all the attention?

Re:their fears are well founded

[jargoone]

How come TiVo gets all the attention?

Because they toe the line better than Replay, and haven't gone under like replay has. Twice.

Re:their fears are well founded

[Keeper]

The VCR was backed by large, established companies. TiVo doesn't have the resources to fight a legal battle of this sort. It would put them out of business.

Re:their fears are well founded

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly, back then the VCR had sony and some other people fighting the content makers. Now hoever, Sony, ect. have become the content makers.

Re:their fears are well founded

[Moofie]

So will selling out their customers.

Tivo will either keep me happy, or they'll lose my business. Frankly, right now, it's not looking too good for them. I like my Tivo a LOT, but I won't put up with any shenanigans...

Re:their fears are well founded

[Keeper]

They're in a no-win situation. They either make macrovision happy and piss off a few people, or they lose their macrovision license and piss off customers that record content from their (digital) cable box.

You can piss and moan about it all you want, but it isn't like they had a high road to choose from in the first place.

Re:their fears are well founded

[Moofie]

It's not pissing and moaning to take my business elsewhere. That's called "a free market".

I don't owe Tivo my loyalty. As soon as they go too far, I'm gone. They're mighty close.

Re:their fears are well founded

[Keeper]

Great. Hope you enjoy watching TV the old fashioned way, because you aren't going to find a device without this crap embedded in it.

Re:their fears are well founded

[Moofie]

There exists a threshold of inconvenience beyond which the roll-your-own devices become attractive to me. I'm not worried about those devices being hamstrung.

Re:their fears are well founded

[Keeper]

You are assuming of course that it will be possible to assemble a roll-your-own device which doesn't have the annoyances you describe. As it is today, it is illegal to import a vcr that isn't "vulnerable" to macrovision. What makes you think it will be possible to purchase capture cards which are either a) usable in a roll-your-own type of enviornment or b) capable of recording a macrovisioned signal?

Returned my TIVO

[Anonymous Coward]

I recently purchased a replacement TIVO (thanks Katrina) at a Best Buy and read that same evening about the broadcast flag limitations. I immediately returned it the next day. The article's supposition is right. If I can't do what I am used to doing with my TIVO, then I have no desire to own one. Spending $13 a month to be told what I can and can't do is insulting.

Cell Phone jammers?

[fa2k]

That's the dumbest metaphor ever

http://www.mythtv.org/

[hungrygrue]

http://www.mythtv.org/

Re:http://www.mythtv.org/

[hungrygrue]

Hah! I love it! Suggesting a solution to the problem which, clearly, a large number of people are not aware of (or why would they buy a TiVo?) is "redundant"! :-) Go ahead, mod this one "troll" or "flamebait" :-) !!

Re:http://www.mythtv.org/

[Anonymous Coward]

There's only been 6 mythtv.org links before yours. Try reading the posts next time asshole.

Why?

[Str8Dog]

Exactly why is TiVo adding this functionality? I cannot for the life of me figure it out. Is there a law somewhere that says they must? Or are they just afraid of the cost of a legal battle with the **AAs? Are the media companies so powerful now that they can impose thier will with just the treat of a lawsuit?

Re:Why?

[MarkGriz]

"Exactly why is TiVo adding this functionality? I cannot for the life of me figure it out"

It was a licensing requirement from Macrovision
See here http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050914-5307 .html

Re:Why?

[RingDev]

Yes. Notice that at this point, no one is getting sued for content downloading, they are getting sent collection letters. The only 3 content download cases that I am aware of are the 3 single mothers going to court. -Rick

Re:Why?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Exactly why is TiVo adding this functionality?

Put yourself in Tivo's place. Do you listen to your individual customers who are worried about what the industry will do and refrain from potentially screwing them all over? Or do you instead get that huge sale from Comcast who is willing to sign a contract to use Tivo hardware in every set top box for the next five years, thus forcing most cable customers to become your customer? After all, since the content providers just want the DRM there and promise not to use it till it is too late for your customers and since most of your customers won't know/care that it has happened for years it won't lose you too many sales. Tivo is just playing it safe by partnering with the big boys rather than fighting them.

Truthfully, this market has room for up to four distinct players: Content providers, hardware providers, software providers, and scheduling service providers. The big cable companies want to make sure they own all that space and will play dirty to do it. It is almost impossible to challenge them in the content space, since they are the only source of sufficient bandwidth in the last mile.

Ideally, all four of those areas would be separate and interoperable and there would be competition for each. You could buy an X brand set top PVR, install OS Y, subscribe to scheduling service Z, and still be stuck getting your content from the existing cable company. Already there are companies like Tivo and RealTV making the hardware and software, projects like MythTV and companies like Elgato providing software, and services like TitanTV selling just the subscription. This is the Cable companies ruin, so they are trying hard to maintain power. Thus they make a deal with the number one player, give them a really sweet deal with a long term supplier contract for more money and boxes than they could hope to sell on their own in years, and make sure the stage is set for them to gut the PVR space, by providing their own, limited, but cheaper (by the exact amount they just raised everyone's cable bill) boxes. No one can compete with their bundling, and they have a government enforced monopoly on the last mile that cannot be taken away easily. The result is Tivos starting to suck and be included in cable company provided boxes, that kinda sorta do what the users want, for now.

There are several possibly disruptive factors in their plans. One is cheap, fast internet that could cut them out of the loop and make them compete. Luckily for them, the cable companies and the content producers are mostly owned by the same corp. so there is little chance of that without a big indy video scene appearing. The second wildcard is Microsoft. Their media PS edition could completely screw them, but MS is planning for the long term. They will probably play nice and partner and add all the DRM they want, so long as it is MS DRM and locks everyone in to Windows for the foreseeable future. MS know some day it will all run thru the computer and that day they will subsume the cable companies. Until then they are content to build strength with their file format and OS lock in. The last wildcard is another Tivo. If someone can make a cheap enough device to do what Tivo does, that is easy to use and does not play ball with the cable companies, it could all come tumbling down. They are probably terrified of MythTV, since it cannot be bought out or bribed into the fold.

At least that is my take on it. I could be wrong.

Re:Why?

[Wesley Felter]

What law says they have to sign a Macrovision license?

Re:Why?

[MarkGriz]

"What law says they have to sign a Macrovision license?"

None, but since they wanted to license Macrovision, they had to comply with the license requirements.

Including Macrovision technology was a business decision, whether you agree with it or not. Whether it was a *good* decision or not is left as an exercise for the reader

Re:Why?

[Jerf]

So what does TiVo get from Macrovision that they couldn't have otherwise?

(I'm pretty sure this gets closer to what Wesley Felter meant. What's the root cause of this change? Signing a license agreement with Macrovision just pushes it back one step; where's the law? Where's the business decision that says "Macrovision or [less profit/out of business]"? Who's holding the gun here?

Re:Why?

[Keeper]

They gain the ability to (legally) display macrovision encoded content (so you can record shows off of premium channels for example).

Re:Why?

[Wesley Felter]

Macrovision (and its evil brother CGMS-A) aren't encodings; they're just flags, which means if you ignore them then they just go away. And since flags aren't an "effective access control mechanism", then legally you don't have to obey them. So I contend that TiVo could have totally ignored Macrovision and still been able to legally record premium content.

Re:Why?

[Keeper]

Sure, in this case we're just dealing with flags. But the signal coming from your cable box that makes your vcr go wonky isn't a flag -- that is an encoded signal. In order to keep their license so they can record the wonky video signal, they need to respect the flags in the video signal.

Re:Why?

[Alsee]

Why is TiVo doing this?

Well first of all there's the fact that the movie industry files repeated and extremely expensive harrassing lawsuits against anyone they view as uncooperative. It doesn't matter if they win or lose, they can run a company into bankruptcy on legal costs alone. They pretty much killed ReplayTV that way.

Secondly TiVo usings include DVD players. Under the DMCA you need a Content Scrambling System crypto license from the movie industry to play DVDs. The CSS license says you must also sign a Macrovision license. Macrovision added the requirement for the new broadcast flags to it's Macrovison license because they work for the Movie industry.

They could evade the second issue by dropping the CSS scrambled DVD playing feature... and I think they SHOULD do that (you can get a sepaerate DVD player for about $30), but that would still leave them with the first problem. The MPAA would bleed them dry with nuciance lawsuits for anything and everything.

It's all bullshit.

-

That's why I use MythTV

[Chris Burke]

Tivo is great, and a few days of using it is the reason why I've been unable to watch TV without a PVR since. But for my own use, it's all about MythTV, and this story is exactly the reason. Pick whatever free PVR you want if you don't like Myth.

And if you don't like any free PVR, and are going to say something like "Free PVR X is too difficult to set up" or "X has a crappy interface compared to Tivo", I'm going to agree. But consider that in five years your Tivo is going to have the same usability and fewer features, while the free PVR will get easier to set up and use, will have more features, and above all will still be Free.

Tivo was all about taking control of your TV experience. The industry doesn't like that, and they are slowly going to take that control back. The Free PVRs, much like Free Software itself, is a way for you to keep that control.

Re:That's why I use MythTV

[Surt]

On a side note about mythTV: one of the greatest TiVo experiences i've enjoyed is with dual-receiver DirecTiVo. You can record 2 shows and watch another (recorded show). Does mythTV support multiple receivers? I'm too lazy to go find out, someone just tell me. :-)

Re:That's why I use MythTV

[garcia]

But consider that in five years your Tivo is going to have the same usability and fewer features, while the free PVR will get easier to set up and use, will have more features, and above all will still be Free.

Well, believe me when I tell you -- the content providers will start going after the homebrew PVR market next. Whether it will be getting to the TV-in card manufacturers or to Congress -- they will do everything in their power to make sure that *they* control their content regardless of fair-use.

So, in five years, when you claim Tivo will be worthless I expect the home-brew PVR software to be acceptable for a good many people to use but I also expect that there will be built-in hardware limitations that will only be circumvented by those with the ability to create their own hardware solutions that are flag free.

Scary, I know -- welcome to Corporate America.

Re:That's why I use MythTV

[Surt]

http://www.mythtv.org/modules.php?name=MythFeature s

All right, I wasn't too lazy. MythTV does support multiple tuners.

Re:That's why I use MythTV

[blueturffan]

Does mythTV support multiple receivers?

The Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-500 card has dual tuners and dual MPEG-2 encoders in a single PCI card. http://www.hauppauge.com/pages/products/data_pvr50 0mce.html. I have heard of people using two of these cards in a single MythTV backend and recording 4 shows simulatneously.

In order to do this with DirecTV, I'm guessing you'd need multiple DirecTV tuners. I'm sure some of the more knowledgable MythTV folks that read /. can add more information and experience here.

Re:That's why I use MythTV

[hawkbug]

Not really, it doesn't if you have DirecTV. Think about it - how would this work? Say you have a DirecTV tuner plugged into your TV - now what? You only have one feed coming in - this means you would need TWO direcTV tuners you'd be paying for to make this work. That seems rather pointless to me. The only reason I have Tivo over Myth is the dual tuner issue. Show me a way to make this work reasonably, and I'll switch in a heartbeat.

Re:That's why I use MythTV

[Surt]

DirectTV sells a dual tuner dish now. It's pretty much the same price as a single dish, at least where I am. ($5 extra per month I think).
http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/imagine/TIVOQA.dsp

Re:That's why I use MythTV

[hawkbug]

Right - I realize that. I have a dish like that with dual out, and I have a splitter with 3 TVs hooked up in my house. I have 2 of them each having their own single tuner for normal TV viewing. The 3rd is hooked up to my dual tuner Tivo, which requires 2 lines from the dish - however it's only one DirecTV card, so it shows up as one box - negating the need to run 2 seperate tuners.

My point is: if somebody can come up with a way to use dual tuner on Myth and not require a second DirecTV tuner, I'm in.

Re:That's why I use MythTV

[spinozaq]

Yeah.... You need to two boxen if you're going to record two DirecTV channels at once. The same goes for "most" digital cable, they require you to have a box to decode them. My setup is a digital cable box through Svideo into the MythTV, and a "standard" second tuner to get the 70 or so cable stations. So I can record a digital and an analog (really... they're all still analog)... at once... My god... how much TV do you people watch?

The other minor issue with MythTV is changing channels on the external box. You either need to use an IR device stuck to the front of it(How a model of TiVo does it), or hope there is a firewire or USB port that supports channel changing ( becoming more common )... I don't see this changing as time goes on. The cable companies want to turn off the analog signals, and require everyone to have to have a cable box. Multiple stacked cable boxes arn't the best decor.... However... at least with MythTV you can put them all in the basement with a file server, and just have pretty little computer on each TV set.

Re:That's why I use MythTV

[Anonymous Coward]

So, in five years, when you claim Tivo will be worthless I expect the home-brew PVR software to be acceptable for a good many people to use but I also expect that there will be built-in hardware limitations that will only be circumvented by those with the ability to create their own hardware solutions that are flag free.

That's where GNU radio comes in. The hardware is so simple and generic it cannot be outlawed without something draconian like outlawing all unlicensed receivers of any RF spectrum. All the hard stuff is done in software. I've seen demos where they can decode HDTV with it. Quite impressive.

More importantly, the only thing the content providers will do is destory television. Once someone uses a TiVO, they change their lifestyle because of it. I, for example, cannot imagine ever again watching TV on somebody else's schedule. People won't go back to the way things were.

Re:That's why I use MythTV

[Anonymous Coward]

The short answer is MythTV can't replace a dual tuner DirecTivo. It can provide a lower
video quality replacement for a single tuner DirecTivo system though.

Re:That's why I use MythTV

[garcia]

That's where GNU radio comes in. The hardware is so simple and generic it cannot be outlawed without something draconian like outlawing all unlicensed receivers of any RF spectrum. All the hard stuff is done in software. I've seen demos where they can decode HDTV with it. Quite impressive.

Cool, a project that has been dead since 2004 and that will be killed by any modern iterations of HDTV signal. You think that the broadcasters and content providers are going to spend all that money to protect their stuff and they aren't going to do everything in their power to make the DRM ever-changing to thwart the hacker community? Hah!

More importantly, the only thing the content providers will do is destory television. Once someone uses a TiVO, they change their lifestyle because of it. I, for example, cannot imagine ever again watching TV on somebody else's schedule. People won't go back to the way things were.

People have already proven that they will do whatever it takes to watch TV. They *love* TV. Remember, the majority of people do not use DVRs and if they had to choose between not being able to use their DVR to see a show and having to fuck w/their schedule to make sure they saw it live -- they'd fuck w/their schedule.

Re:That's why I use MythTV

[Anonymous Coward]

My god... how much TV do you people watch?

When you get married and have children, you will appreciate a dual tuner direcTivos ability to record two things at once.

Re:That's why I use MythTV

[pipingguy]

Television is advertising-supported, do you deny this? As an alternative, should advertisers pay for TV programming with five minutes of pre-show promotional stuff like PBS?

Re:That's why I use MythTV

[jbn-o]

The GNURadio homepage shows samples of HDTV images received and decoded successfully. If we give up because we suspect opposition, we'll surely lose our rights. If we fight technologically and politically through organized action we may secure our rights.

Re:That's why I use MythTV

[Anonymous Coward]

I've always wanted to try MythTV, but I have Dish Network satellite. The only way for MythTV to interact with it is to either build a special cable and software setup or do something like this. Most Dish Network boxes don't have the harware necessary for building the cable, or it is internally disabled. So the only other way is to emulate the remote control. I'm fairly nerdy, but that procedure is lengthy and complicated even for me. I'm not saying it's MythTV's fault, but given the alternatives I'd much rather get a Tivo. It too needs to emulate the remote control, but all the hardware and software is already built and ready to go out of the box.

Re:That's why I use MythTV

[synergy3000]

At that point I will stop watching TV. Other stuff can entertain me instead. Screw them.

But why did TiVo implement DRM?

[Wesley Felter]

TiVo voluntarily added this crap to their product, so it is their fault.

(I don't completely believe Caesar's article. What law forces TiVo to implement DRM? FCC broadcast flag approval is a red herring, since the broadcast flag was killed.)

Re:But why did TiVo implement DRM?

[wiggles]

Copyright law forces them to license functionality from Macrovision, who said they would only license their product to TiVo if they put this functionality in, so to answer your question, copyright law plus contract law says it has to be there. Originally, TiVo said that they would only use it for Video-On-Demand and Pay-Per-View, but a bug popped up last week that put restrictions on some syndicated programming (King of the Hill, Simpsons).
 
More info here.

Re:But why did TiVo implement DRM?

[jandrese]

How did Copyright Law force them to add anything? It seems more likey to me that certain cartels forced them to put it in under threat of legal action using Copyright Law, but the law didn't force them to do anything.

Re:But why did TiVo implement DRM?

[wiggles]

The PPV and VOD broadcasts are encrypted by Macromedia's technology. In order to decode said broadcasts as cable boxes do, they had to license Macromedia's decoder, or face the wrong side of the DMCA (breaking an effective copy protection scheme). They could either not record PPV or VOD at all, or add this functionality. They chose to add functionality with restrictions.

Re:But why did TiVo implement DRM?

[wiggles]

Oops! :s /macromedia/macrovision

Re:But why did TiVo implement DRM?

[Anonymous Coward]

The law forces them not to be contributory infringers. Granted, it forces them to do this with the threat of future sanctions, but you're arguing semantics.

Re:But why did TiVo implement DRM?

[enrico_suave]

"The PPV and VOD broadcasts are encrypted by Macromedia's technology. In order to decode said broadcasts as cable boxes do, they had to license Macromedia's decoder,"

I'm pretty sure that's innaccurate... my understanding (which may also be innaccurate ;) ):

TiVo needs Macrovision license for their combination DVD burner/player Tivo (not sure why, but it's probably part of the spec to get a "certified by the DVD consortium" DVD device with the appropriate stickers or whatever...)

Macrovision put Tivo over the barell that if they didn't ALSO license/implement their broadcast content protection they couldn't get the certification they needed for the other DVD related products...

fast forward to today (or rather tomorrow) when everybody loses, yeah! clarification/corrections welcome...

e.

Re:But why did TiVo implement DRM?

[Wesley Felter]

The PPV and VOD broadcasts are encrypted by [Macrovision's] technology.

Mavcrovision and CGMS-A are not encryption, thus you can totally ignore them if you want to. (e.g. most video capture cards ignore that stuff)

Re:But why did TiVo implement DRM?

[JVert]

Parent is right. Its not about laws its about contract agreements. To get access to decode macrovision (which they were completly capable of doing on their own, but needed the license) they had to agree to abide by macrovisions terms.

Its like someone buying a car, wanting to change their own brakes, but the physical proccess of replacing the brakes is copyrighted. So they contact the owners of the copyright and the owners agree to license the brake replacement technology. However vehicle owner must agree to only replace the brakes with a list of aproved brake pads. Or they will kill his familiy.

And Dog.

But the fish is underwater and is not subject to the same laws as our country.

But they will poison the water.

Re:But why did TiVo implement DRM?

[Jonny_eh]

Macrovision is both a company and an anti-copyright infringment technique. The company licenses technologies other than 'Macrovision protection', I think.

Re:But why did TiVo implement DRM?

[Eivind]

Bein that nitpicky, the law never forces you to do *anything*, men with guns, acting on the orders of judges interpreting the law may force you, but the law itself, being nothing more than a conglomeration of letters obviously doesn't have the power to force anyone to do anything.

While correct, this level of nitpickyness is not helpful.

Re:But why did TiVo implement DRM?

[NateTech]

If you want to get pedantic about it, the economics of our legal system forced them to do it.

"How much justice can TiVo afford?"

How much justice can YOU afford is the question before us all... as the legal system gets more and more expensive, the average Citizen can eventually, no longer avail themselves of its services.

Politicians and Lawyers: The best Laws money can buy!

I don't get it

[scorp1us]

I have watched and laughed as Tivo has bent over and taken everything from the industry. I am both a ReplayTV and MythTV owner. I don't understand why or how Tivo does what they do. If I bought a box with functionality X,Y,Z, and later Y is ammended in a way that causes some controversy (in a way I do not like), then I think Tivo has broken a contract.

Throughout it all, my ReplayTV experience has gone un-touched, I still have commercial skipping and the like. The way Replay skirts the issue is that they change model numbers and can then change the feature set. My 4500 has commercial skip where the 5500 does not. How Tivo is legally able to change it on all models is beyond me.

Even with the broadcast flag, TiVo getting better

[DeadSea]

There are some good reasons to upgrade to the new TiVo software even if it does not let you record content with the broadcast flag. The biggest reason for me is that now you can do the complete setup process without a telephone line. The entire setup from system reset can be done with wireless internet.

I just bought a new TiVo and was upset that it shipped with the last software rather than the most recent. I had to take it to a neighbors house to have it use the phone line since I only have a cell phone.

In any case you can read my review of the Humax TiVo with DVD burner. I review it as a TiVo, as DVD player, and as a DVD burner.

Got rid of my TiVo, using BTV

[ratajik]

I cancelled my TiVo subscription 4 days ago - I'm now using BeyondTV. I had the original model of the TiVo, and have been paying the monthly on it since TiVo first came out (yeah, I know, in hindsight I should have bought the lifetime subscription). I loved my TiVo - it really changed how I watched TV. But what I wanted in a DVR is something that records TV, keeps it until I tell it to get rid of it, etc.

The TiVo rep argued with me that they had "resolved" the problems with shows getting deleted. I understand that it wasn't intentionally turned on, but the fact is the device now supports and allows broadcasts to muck around with this kind of thing. They offered to knock the monthly down 1/2, but I'm not interested any more.

I don't like the direction the company is heading in, so I've switched. I'm not going back, unless there's a radically change in their direction - and even then I'm no likely to. I like having control over my DVR - dual headed, 1TB storage, DVD burner, can ADD shows to the machine (and get them off), and I can extend and expand that machine as I see fit.

Long live BTV! :)

-Greg

Re:Got rid of my TiVo, using BTV

[Nom du Keyboard]

I cancelled my TiVo subscription 4 days ago ... (yeah, I know, in hindsight I should have bought the lifetime subscription).

If you'd already paid for a lifetime subscription, then you're cancelling of it now would not have had the same impact on them.

offered to knock the monthly down 1/2

So, threaten to leave and get your subscriptions at 1/2 price. Hummm

Re:Got rid of my TiVo, using BTV

[ratajik]

I've been paying for the monthly. Didn't think I'd keep it as long as I did. They offered to reduce the monthly by 1/2.

Re:Got rid of my TiVo, using BTV

[kb7oeb]

If you have an orignal tivo then I don't think you will have this problem. They say it was introduced with version 7.2 but the series 1 tivos are stuck on 3.0

Convert SA Tivo's to MythTV

[Bruha]

This should not be hard. All the hardware is present and you have a instant DVR that can do more than what Tivo did. Maybe even use a usb dvd drive to put movies on dvd and such.

Sadly DirectTivo's probably are out of the picture for this.

Re:Convert SA Tivo's to MythTV

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a decent idea overall (Tivo would go bankrupt if it worked well, since I'm fairly certain they lose money on the box), but as far as I can tell, the minimum specs for mythTV far outway the specs of a series2 box.

Re:Convert SA Tivo's to MythTV

[enrico_suave]

this won't work, sorry... unless you can get X, etc.. to run on those custom 33mhz risc chips... there's more reasons than that, but for starters.... no you can't put a replacement OS/mythtv onto a tivo STB

e.

If you buy something because of promised features

[artifex2004]

and later the company takes away some of that capability, do you have some legal basis for claiming false advertising, or reneging on contract, or something like that?

I think this would be more of a question for people who paid for a lifetime subscription, but it also throws into the question the value of any future lifetime subscriptions, because if their contract allows them to start adding restrictions after the fact, is it really of much value?

Perhaps a similar question could have been first pursued back when the company started venturing into adding advertising into the skip features, etc., as well.

How to let Tivo know how you feel.

[Anonymous Coward]

My suggestion? Call up Tivo and cancel your service. While they process your request, they'll ask you what your reason was. Explain it to them.

Within a day or so, you'll get an email begging you to resume your service with a 30-day credit.

It worked the last time Tivo tried to pork it's customers.. The whole obnoxious full-screen ad while fast-forwarding.

Hit em where it hurts.

Might this spur IP TV and true On-Demand?

[CompSci101]

Most people I know who have one swear by their TiVos. I'm probably the rare Slashdotter that doesn't have one yet, but my reasons are very simple: I hate TV and the vast majority of the content available. I have a few shows that routinely take up my time, and they're on at shitty hours (damn you, [adult swim]!), but I can't justify buying a TiVo just to watch 3 or 4 shows in the middle of the afternoon rather than 1:00 AM.

I'm wondering if most people don't feel the same way, considering the response to this DRM seems to be "I'd have to get rid of my TiVo and stop watching TV". Given this, doesn't it seem that IP TV and true on-demand services might get a big boost out of TiVo's being crippled with DRM? If broadcasters can't sell commercials they won't buy shows, and if shows can't sell themselves to broadcasters they inevitably have to start selling directly to the people who want to watch.

Basically: might this be a blessing in disguise?

C

Re:Might this spur IP TV and true On-Demand?

[hexix]

Probably not. You need to realize that this is Slashdot where everyone, and myself included, bitch and moan about every event. A lot of people are threatening to get rid of their Tivos and invest 500 bucks, an entire week, and 1/4 of their living room to setup a MythTV box. These people are likely just using empty threats hoping to scare Tivo in to reversing the software update. Most likely, Tivo won't back off, and in a month all of this will be forgotten as long as the flag doesn't come up on regular tv shows for any other people.

We've gone through this process with Tivo users before. The TivoToGo release took too long so there were claims of canceling their service and going to MythTV. Mac users still can't download shows from their tivo and watch them on their mac without going through a PC first, as far as I know. And through it all, the people who bitched and moaned are most likely still using Tivo.

I own a Tivo. I use a mac. I hate DRM. I constantly think about how I should build a MythTV box, which shouldn't be too hard for me since I have a lot of linux experience. But I get home from work, plop on the couch, and tun on my TV to see if any good shows are waiting for me on the Tivo. There needs to be a serious and obvious interruption to my Tivo service to get me off my lazy ass so that I switch to something else.

But as far as IPTV and the such, I think podcasts might do a lot to get people moving in that direction. If you don't believe me, download iTunes (or figure out how to use some other podcast software) and subscribe to Diggnation, Systm, Rocketboom, Dawn and Drew show, and This Week in Tech. People are really starting to make some cool stuff that is totally independent and free of DRM nastiness. The content is surprisingly good. The only real problems are wading through the thousands of crappy podcasts so that you can find the rare good one, and the bandwidth needs of podcasters who get popular. But podcasts have really shown people that anyone can make a show, and some of them might even be good. So now there should be a lot of creative thinkers figuring out how to make it easier to find shows and for shows to handle the bandwidth needs. Of course there will also be a lot of creative thinkers figuring out how they can DRM podcasts in hopes of making money.... sigh.

Your Own Software

[Nom du Keyboard]

Any way yet to load your own software into TiVo while maintaining their subscription service? Seems to me that I recall hearing a few months ago that TiVo was supposed to be opening itself up to 3rd party add-ins. There must be an API set somewhere.

I Hope This Madness Will End Soon

[TheWanderingHermit]

I agree with the first post: DRM is the issue, not specifically TIVO.

I remember when I got my first real computer, an Apple //e (I had a TRS-80 Color Computer before that, but I'm talking about my first usable computer). IIRC, games were $20-$30 a piece. Applewriter //e was $200. Programs were using heavy copy protection. I remember reading a lot of articles about it, and one point was that any disk that could be copy-protected could be broken. Even when IBM became bigger than Apple, for a while copy protection was big. I remember going in and using Don Lancaster's disassembly of Applewriter //e to figure out how to make my own copies of Applewriter //e so I could start modifying it on my own (and leave my precious, licensed copy safe and untouched). I stayed with Apple for a good while because it was fun, because I knew the monitor ROM closely, and because I could not afford to upgrade. Then I got a good deal on an Amiga. By the time I got back into the "mainline" again, Windows 95 was big.

At that point almost no programs had copy protection. It had gone out of style because it cost more to keep ahead of the crackers than to just put it out and make what you could on honest customers. I remember in the material I read by Apple crackers, they pointed out that any disk the computer could run, copy protected or not, HAD to be able to be read by the boot loader, so at least the first sector had to be easily readable. From there on, a good cracker could figure it out one way or the other, as long as he took the time.

We know that any form of DRM is breakable, not just through brute force, but by reverse engineering. Yes, there's the DMCA, but tha is not going to stop cracking programs from being easily found, just as pirated software was easy to find in the days of Apple //e and programs like Locksmith were all over the place -- usually as a pirated copy in the basement of a teen uber-geek who had hundreds of copied 5 1/4" disks.

This is just a new market. Software publishers have gotten used to knowing there are unauthorized copies of their work, in perfect digital form, being traded among the public. This same idea scares the life out of RIAA and MPAA, but eventually they'll realize that it costs more, in the long run, to keep everything protected than to just release it as is and make what you can from the millions of honest customers. They've already started to change their positions on this. When Napster came out, there was no way they wanted ANY online distribution. ITunes changed that. The studio making the Harry Potter movies announced in a press release that large batches of Harry Potter III were released without any copy protection to see how it went, since protection was so expensive to incorporate and license.

It'll take a long while, especially with Microsoft doing the Harold Hill routine (from "The Music Man") where they say, "Hey, all these people will still your stuff. You've got trouble, right here in River City," and, at the same time saying, "But I'll tell you how to fight that trouble. Just pay us tons of money and we'll make sure you don't lose tons of money. We'll protect it all!" Eventually, though, the added expense and work needed for protection and the paranoia of the MPAA and RIAA will start fading and we'll see something much more reasonable, just like we did in the evolution of software marketing.

Add to that the growth of FOSS and people with guts, like the gov. in Mass., who are beginning to see the value in open formats and software that doesn't cost a ton of money, and eventually, after all the fears are shown groundless, we'll see the entire data and content market become commodity markets, just like the expensive long distance and cell phone markets have become.

Re:I Hope This Madness Will End Soon

[alienw]

We know that any form of DRM is breakable, not just through brute force, but by reverse engineering.

Not quite. You can't easily break a hardware protection scheme unless you are willing to spend millions of dollars on hacking the hardware. If you use strong encryption that is well-implemented and uses hardware, it will not be possible to crack. Nobody has yet cracked DirecTV encryption, for instance. The new initiatives like TCPA should make DRM extremely secure.

Re:I Hope This Madness Will End Soon

[nsayer]

If you use strong encryption that is well-implemented and uses hardware, it will not be possible to crack.

Minor quibble: You meant to say "it will not be easy to crack". Your point was that it would cost millions of dollars to hack the hardware. Fine. The cost of cracking DirecTV is a million bucks. That makes it expensive and unlikely that someone would go to the expense, but not impossible.

If it is possible Alice to encrypt a message so that Bob can decrypt it, then it is possible for anyone to decrypt it - even if they have to take a rubber hose over to Bob's house.

Re:I Hope This Madness Will End Soon

[pegr]

Not quite. You can't easily break a hardware protection scheme unless you are willing to spend millions of dollars on hacking the hardware. If you use strong encryption that is well-implemented and uses hardware, it will not be possible to crack.
 
Not quite not quite... In the classic encryption scenario, Alice encrypts a message for Bob, the receipient, to keep it from Charles, the attacker. What if Bob and Charles are the same person? That's what you have with DRM. Since the "legitimate" user has to have the ability to decrypt content, you just have to figure out how to "grab the stream" after its decrypted. Relatively easy in software, harder (but far from impossible) in hardware...

Re:I Hope This Madness Will End Soon

[alienw]

Fine. The cost of cracking DirecTV is a million bucks. That makes it expensive and unlikely that someone would go to the expense, but not impossible.

Nobody will ever spend a million bucks to crack DirecTV, because the goal would not be worth the expense. This effectively makes such a proposition impossible.

Re:I Hope This Madness Will End Soon

[Fortress]

This same idea scares the life out of RIAA and MPAA, but eventually they'll realize that it costs more, in the long run, to keep everything protected than to just release it as is and make what you can from the millions of honest customers.

Silly poster, the MPAA/RIAA isn't going to pay for the protection, they're going to make us pay for the "service" of protecting their content. By law, if they can swing it. Look at the levy on CD-Rs in Canada going to copyright holders. It cost them nothing but some lobbying and brought them in untold millions in unearned revenues.

Personally, I'm protesting these business practices by not buying content from organizations that are members of the MPAA/RIAA.

Re:I Hope This Madness Will End Soon

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody has yet cracked DirecTV encryption, for instance.

Just a tiny bit of googling proves you wrong.

Re:I Hope This Madness Will End Soon

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody will ever spend a million bucks to crack DirecTV, because the goal would not be worth the expense. This effectively makes such a proposition impossible.

How much do you think this guy made money by selling cracked DirecTV smart cards? Anyhow, learn to use Google before making such uninformed claims.

Re:I Hope This Madness Will End Soon

[nsayer]

because the goal would not be worth the expense. This effectively makes such a proposition impossible.

Go find a dictionary and look up "impossible." I'll help you: "impossible" means not possible regardless of expenditure. The word you're looking for is "impractical."

Flag my programs and I'll stop watching

[lildogie]

I watch programs on Tivo because I don't want to watch on someone else's schedule.

*casters, I'll stop watching your shows if you flag them so I can't record them.

Re:Flag my programs and I'll stop watching

[MightyMartian]

Evil TIVO Guy: There's nothing to worry about. Nothing at all.

Frightened Consumer: But does this mean I won't be able to record bad soft porn on the Playboy Channel?

Evil TIVO Guy: There's nothing to worry about. Nothing at all.

Frightened Consumer: The whole reason I pay you guys a subscription is so that I can record stuff off the TV. Now I see this thing flashing on my screen. I'm frightened.

Evil TIVO Guy: Merely a technical glitch. There's nothing to worry about. Nothing at all.

Frightened Consumer: I think you're lying to me. I think I'm not going to be able to record every... [thwak smuck bang crunch rip]

Evil TIVO Guy [lip smacking]: Yummy consumer, needs salt. There's nothing to worry about. Nothing at all. Merely a technical glitch.

Re:Flag my programs and I'll stop watching

[the eric conspiracy]

Sith TIVO Guy: There is no show here you want to record. (Waves Hand)

Consumer: There is no show here I want to record.

Re:Even with the broadcast flag, TiVo getting bett

[Rude Turnip]

Series 2 has been network ready since it came out of the box. I bought mine in 2002 and it has never touched a phone line. As long as you bought a plain vanilla Linksys USB adapter you were good to go. The trick was to set the dial-out number to #401, which would initiate the network connection.

5 steps

[antonymous]

1. Introduce innovative product to market
2. Gain market share
3. Cripple features which made your product innovative in the first place
4. ???
5. Profit!

Screw Tivo use Usenet

[Anonymous Coward]

subject says it all

How To Tell TiVo To Quit Porking You Up The Ass

[Anonymous Coward]

http://research.tivo.com/suggestions/2web519.htm

Tell them you dont want their corporate dick up your ass. You bought their unit as advertised. Fucking with your options as a customer constitutes bait and switch, and a big cock up your ass.

Re:Even with the broadcast flag, TiVo getting bett

[DeadSea]

You've never been able to do it over wireless until now though. I don't have a wired USB adapter.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo-WRONG!

[Nom du Keyboard]

One thing that needs to be really stressed is the fact that people are better off aiming their ire at the content industry, not TiVo. Why? Because copyright holders under US law unfortunately have the ability to dictate things such as "you cannot record this," "you can only watch this one," and "you have 7 days to watch this." Those are legal rights that copyright holders can and have established with distribution partners. Let me clarify this situation.

This sounds so wrong to me. There is no law mandating that TiVo include these features yet. If there was, then every VCR sold would need them too - and all the satellite boxes already sold would be upgraded with it.

TiVo still is the problem. They're doing more to aid the content creation industry than they are for their paying customers. I have yet to hear of any copyright statute in law that says a copyright holder can regulate your use of content after you've purchased it - or received it for free over the air.

LET TIVO KNOW HOW MUCH THIS ANGERS YOU, or you're in line to lose more than this!

Mentioning it to Congress can't hurt either.

No worries... just hit eBay for a Series 1...

[Anonymous Coward]

...and mod that puppy like crazy until it does what you want. That's what I did. Bigger drive, ethernet, web interface.. the works. Even found an OS X app that needs about three mouse clicks to suck a recording from the TiVo and burn it to DVD.

I'm developing a real "love the product, can't stand the company" thing about TiVo, like I used to have about Apple in the 90s.

Re:If you buy something because of promised featur

[Pichu0102]

I doubt it. Most Terms of Usage proclaim that they can not be held legally accountable for changes in their Terms of Service you agreed to, and decided to ignore if you updated and were given warning that the terms of your service have changed.

Now, if they gave NO warning that their terms changed as they said they would, that might be something, but as I see it, most companies try to cover that hole.

Filter that BF

[Nom du Keyboard]

If noise can trip the Broadcast Flag, how about a box between the signal and the TiVo to "Clean Up The Signal"?

Step 1 is knowing where in the signal the BF is.

Re:Filter that BF

[LordKronos]

As I understand it, this flag is part of the new macrovision system. Macrovision is done using the extra non visible part of the signal (where the closed captioning is...extra scan lines at the end of each frame). There have been tools out there for years that strip out this extra data from the signal (just saw one at CompUSA for $80).

Re:Filter that BF

[Wesley Felter]

This is CGMS-A, not the broadcast flag. CGMS-A is located in the VBI. The box exists if you can find it...

Is Akimbo viable yet?

[Rude Turnip]

If Tivo got too restrictive, I would have no qualms about unloading it. I *really* only use it for Adult Swim, History Channel and Discovery Channel anymore. Can anyone comment if the Akimbo broadband-based, on-demand system is a good deal at this point? For $20 a month, I could get all their standard programming ($15) plus Adult Swim ($5). Yes, it uses DRM Windows Media format....HOWEVER (big HOWEVER), the difference is that you already know what you're getting into from the get-go. And, since it's akin to a rental system, the DRM in this case would be expected.

This is why...

[B11]

I've never bought a TiVo or rented a DVR from the cable companies. There is NO guarantee that either will stand up to Hollywood (of course much less from my cable company, Time Warner!!!!).

I mean why even bother when you can set up a DRM-free PC DVR for 60 bucks (minus the cost of the PC)!

The good news

[Dark Paladin]

If they do this, I can convince my wife to let me pick up the items to make my own Myth TV device - I have the spare machine, just need the capture card.

Since I picked up the Tivo for her, she's fallen in love with it (always the first step). Now, if they get annoying, I have an excuse for more hardware in my house.

Why "fear"

[NineNine]

Why would customers "fear" this? Is it just a case of extreme addition to this gadget? It's very simple. From what I understand, they signed a usage agreement/contract, and if Tivo violates it, they just sue. If I watched TV and had one of these recorder thingies, I'd do just that. I don't understand why there'd be "fear" over Tivo changing the contract mid-stream.

Re:Why "fear"

[kannibal_klown]

From what I understand, they signed a usage agreement/contract, and if Tivo violates it, they just sue.

Silly, silly, lad

What do you think the EULA on 99% of the software says:
a) We promise our software will not damage your system or data in a way.
b) We in no way accept responsibility for damage done to your system or data. Install and use at your own risk.

The user agreements are to protect the company's interests, not the user's. The user agreements are to cover their butts, so if something happens they can say "But you accepted the service agreement that says it's alright." Heck, they probably do more to tie the hands of the users instead of the company.

I gaurantee you somewhere in Tivo's agreement (probably somewhere prominent) they say that they reserve the right to modify their services and update their software whenever and however they feel necessary. Almost all service-based products allow for this.

Re:Why "fear"

[UtucXul]

Why would customers "fear" this? Is it just a case of extreme addition to this gadget? It's very simple. From what I understand, they signed a usage agreement/contract, and if Tivo violates it, they just sue. If I watched TV and had one of these recorder thingies, I'd do just that. I don't understand why there'd be "fear" over Tivo changing the contract mid-stream.

I wish it worked that way, but the usage agreement with TiVo is almost certainly the type that says TiVo can change the terms whenever they want or something similar. Is it right? Of course not. I am happy about this as a TiVo user? Hell no. But do I think they broke the contract they made with their users? Probably not since it is almost definitely very one sided.

Re:Why "fear"

[NormalVisual]

Just because something is in the ToS doesn't mean that clause is enforcable, however.

Re:Why "fear"

[kannibal_klown]

Just because something is in the ToS doesn't mean that clause is enforcable, however.

True.

Firstly there are illegal acts
  hack the Tivo and you become our slave
The outrageous ones
  hack the Tivo even a little and we get your car
Some that most wouldn't consider kosher
  sell your Tivo to a 3rd party and we bill you for the cost of a new unit.


However, saying "we reserve the right to change our service as we see fit and thus modify the unit's software accordingly" is completely acceptable. Even doing something as draconion as, say, deleting shows after they've been stored for more than 14 days regaurdless of user input is would be acceptable. If they feel that their service shouldn't allow for long-term archiving for some content, so be it. I doubt anywhere in the user contract they "guarantee all content is archivable as long as the user wishes" because that could come back to bite them in the butt later.

You're choosing to use their service and thus must abide by these legally acceptable terms. You could always stop using the service, as the Tivo is functional without it (all-be-it not as nice). But that's your choice to continue on.

Re:A cell phone jammer? What a great idea!

[scorp1us]

I looked into it. But I think that it would CAUSE more accidents than it stopped. You see when the call gets disconnected, they will take their eyes off the road and put them on the phone. (Exactly what you DON'T want them to do!) Then they fiddle with the phone, maybe redial (again more distraction, not less). And as soon as you get out of range they will call back or be called back making yet another moment of distraction.

I think it is best to just let them be at 20-50% aware rather than make them dip down to 5% aware.

If everyone had a jammer though, it'd be a different story.

Re:I don't get it - Now That's Marketing!

[Nom du Keyboard]

My 4500 has commercial skip where the 5500 does not.

Funny that they remove a popular feature - one of the most popular features of a DVR - and increase the model number at the same time.

Betamax decision

[benhocking]

The Betamax decision merely stated that companies that sell technology that can be used to violate copyright laws are not responsible for those violations - as long as that is not the intention of said technology. It did not make it legal to violate copyrights, however.

See this site for (much) more information.

Re:Betamax decision

[GoRK]

It's a little different to provide a device capable of violating copyright and making a device that actively facilitates and encourages it. I am not siding with TiVo here or trying to make the claim that a broadcaster has any right to control what I can do with the signal they send me, but I can see one valid argument for this technology.

The problem is that customers will too often waive certain rights or agree to ridiculous limitations in order to purchase something (especially at a reduced price). If a customer purches or downloads a PPV program or a song or whatever under a contract that they cannot archive or duplicate it (ie the customer waives all their normal fair use/first sale rights upon purchase).. If you do it through a TiVo and TiVo is aware of the restriction and specifically provides you the means to save it off to VCR even though they know you are bound by your contract not to do that ... that certainly puts TiVo into an akward position. In a similar fashon, you still have no right of first sale when you purchase a track from iTunes because you waive it in the agreement.

If people would as a whole steadfastly refuse to sign contracts that remove their rights and freedoms none of this would even be an issue.

Re:Even with the broadcast flag, TiVo getting bett

[jandrese]

Say What? I've had my Series 2 running over 802.11 since the day I bought it (over two years ago now). I've been using a Microsoft MN-510 (IIRC). The TiVo software even has sections for setting up your WEP keys, monitor signal strength, and everything.

Self correction

[benhocking]

Nevermind, I read that site I posted a little more carefully, and it does make claims about fair use as well.

Re:Hax0r it and pay the fine

[gosand]

It's only a matter of days before a hack will surface on how to bypass any anti-recording-flag.

It is also only a matter of time before content providers start suing and/or sending people to jail under the DMCA for doing this.

I have to plug SageTV...

[boomgopher]

That app works awesome on an old laptop I converted into a PVR - BeyondTV choked hard, and MythTV doesn't support my USB2 MPEG encoder.

Re:I have to plug SageTV...

[karnal]

Seconded.

Turned a Sempron 2500+ (socket a) into a SageTV device by buying their dual-tuner Hauppauge PVR-500 and Sage bundles about 6 months ago. After I got the SVideo issues worked out (turned out different DVD decoder providers seem to put out a different signal...?) the box is running by itself, with no attention needed.

Even the wife loves it. To be honest, now I watch more TV than I did before - I'm always catching up on old episodes of Mythbusters and Dirty Jobs....

Bad comparison

[Y-Crate]

"This is like cell-phone jammers. What if you couldn't talk on your cell phone? "

Then I would actually go to the movie theatre instead of waiting for the DVD. The inability to watch a movie in peace and quiet is the primary factor in dissuading me from going to the local multiplex. Still waiting for the management of said multiplexes to wake up to this fact.

The ban on cellphone jammers in the U.S. needs to be lifted ASAP.

Re:Bad comparison

[hal2814]

"Then I would actually go to the movie theatre instead of waiting for the DVD. The inability to watch a movie in peace and quiet is the primary factor in dissuading me from going to the local multiplex. Still waiting for the management of said multiplexes to wake up to this fact."

Multiplexes are well-aware that many people are avoiding theaters due to the rudeness of the preteen/young adult crowd (especially as it relates to cell phones). However, this crowd is their bread and butter. They will not lift a finger to throw out the last bastion of theater ticket sales. (I do realize that the youngsters aren't the only ones using cellphones in the theater. They are just the most prevalent.)

What they could do since most theaters have about 10 - 20 screens now is to institute two types of screens, quiet and casual. On casual screens, you would be prepared to deal with the hooliganry of the youngsters while quiet screens could have ushers kick out any patrons who are loud. It would be kind of like my university library where there are "discussion" floors and "quiet" floors. If you're talking too much on a quiet floor, someone will kindly ask you to leave pretty quickly. This would especially work well with a new release that might be on four or more screens its opening weekend.

Re:Bad comparison

[Anonymous Coward]

"Multiplexes are well-aware that many people are avoiding theaters due to the rudeness of the preteen/young adult crowd (especially as it relates to cell phones). However, this crowd is their bread and butter. They will not lift a finger to throw out the last bastion of theater ticket sales. (I do realize that the youngsters aren't the only ones using cellphones in the theater. They are just the most prevalent.)"

right; after working at Loews for a while I got the impression the problem is that theaters could earn similar (more even?) money by throwing out trouble makers and attracting back the audience that avoids theaters because of disruptions. Problem is that would require more effort on their part; seems they prefer making similar or less money with less effort expended. (plus any money lost is made up for by having less staff on duty at a given time; the 4-5 ushers we typically had couldn't come close to keeping an eye on all 15 auditoriums on a busy night, especially with cleaning thrown into the mix.)

Re:Bad comparison

[wfolta]

Considering that our current communications system -- including EMERGENCY communications -- is being build around cellular, I don't think jammers should be legal. First, they can jam a signal outside of the theater. Second if they're legal you might decide to carry a personal one, creating a 911-free zone all around you for a hundred yards until you remember you forgot to turn it off when you left the theater. Third, once you can jam cellphones, what about cameras (lasers, might be bad for your eyes, but whatever), AM/FM radio (damn boomboxes), those loud EMT walkie-talkies, etc?

Re:I Hope This Madness Will End Soon-Etiquette

[Nom du Keyboard]

I agree with the first post: DRM is the issue, not specifically TIVO.

Then you should have posted your comments under that post. That is proper Slashdot Etiquette.

Back to old school....

[FaasNat]

Almost makes you want to go back to using VCRs and tapes since you won't have to deal with this stuff there....

Re:Back to old school....

[enrico_suave]

" Almost makes you want to go back to using VCRs and tapes since you won't have to deal with this stuff there...."

The rub there is that eventually "they" are going to close the analog loop hole... that's pretty much the endgame... all digital signal path with only approved devices/interaction *sigh*

Re:If you buy something because of promised featur

[TheRaven64]

In the UK, the Trade Descriptions Act means that, if you bought it within a year of them changing the terms, you can return it for a full refund. According to this act, a device must be `suitable for the purpose for which sold,' so if you state at purchase time that you want / need a particular feature, or the advertising states that it possesses it, and it turns out that it doesn't, you are eligible for a refund.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo-WRONG!

[mosch]

If there was, then every VCR sold would need them too - and all the satellite boxes already sold would be upgraded with it. Actually, satellite receivers have had this for a long time. I've only seen it once or twice, but my receivers have shown lock icons on random shows, and output macrovision when playing them, to prevent recording to VCR.

Who Would Win If...?

[Nom du Keyboard]

Who would have won if TiVo had simply said "No" to Macrovision's new terms. If they said, We'll risk losing people who can't watch your DRM content, but you'll lose millions of viewers and be hated by all of them.

Who would have won?

Re:Who Would Win If...?

[Keybounce]

Who would have won if TiVo had simply said "No" to Macrovision's new terms. If they said, We'll risk losing people who can't watch your DRM content, but you'll lose millions of viewers and be hated by all of them.

Actually, we've seen this before.

We used to have Dish.
At one point, a number of stations -- including an over the air broadcast station -- were taken off, and all had a text message displayed saying "Tell Viacom that Dish users want to be able to see these stations".

I think it took 2 days for Viacom to drop their demand to Dish, and restore service.

The middle layer provider really DOES control things. After all, if you control the path from the content provider to the content consumer, the provider needs you to reach them.

Tivo had -- HAD -- the ability to use that control. They gave in.

Obl. Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't watch TV. Period. The down side is that I do miss out on a bit of social interaction with my peers (e.g. nope, haven't seen that show). But news/sports/etc I get online, so as a whole I don't believe I'm missing much.

You want more control over your media? Be able to honestly say "Fuck You, I don't need you!" to the media companies. You as a person may not make a difference, but us as a whole will. You'll be surprised at how much they'll be willing to give when you don't give a shit anymore.

My $0.02.

PS. No, I'm not just talking shit. I really don't watch TV. Trust me, it isn't a necessity for survival, etc.

two points

[way2trivial]

Even when IBM became bigger than Apple when exactly was that point reached? IBM has ALWAYS (imho) been bigger

the difference between software duplication/use is that software requires SUPPORT- (which is the premise behind FOSS- support is where the corporate profit comes from) video and audio tracks do not-

if I copy microsoft office, I get no support.

I bought my damn copy, and I've needed to use support.
if I copy a movie, I don't need support- it's not a great parallel..

Re:two points

[nsayer]

if I copy microsoft office, I get no support.

If you buy Microsoft Office, you get worthless support. What's the difference?

Re:two points

[way2trivial]

over the phone, they suck.. but via email- they hunt down very obscure problems and work them out.

I use remote desktop to connect with my CRAPPY work pc to my home pc, and do all my computing off my home pc... I had a error that I found listed on the knowledgebase, describing my error, but for people using remote desktop into a windows server (altho for server it was called terminal services client, not remote desktop) I sent them an email through office support giving them the KB atrticle and specified I was having the exact same issue under xppro- not server, a 1-2 weeks later they email me a link to a updated version of clipbrd.exe to use.. worked perfectly.

Infomercials

[Belseth]

Twice now this week at 1am my TiVo prompted me about a program to record. The first time I let it assuming it was a season pass I had set up. It switched to an infomercial. It wasn't a normal recording and I had a time switching it back to the channel I was watching. Last night it happened a second time exactly the same way. When it prompts to change it doesn't tell you what it's switching to just it's some kind of TiVo extra. I couldn't find my controller in time and wound up going through the same nightmare switching back. I called up TiVo and after an hour wait was told it wasn't them doing it. I think the agent was sincere but I question that some one at TiVo central isn't test driving passively recording infomercials. They are definately doing it since all sorts of TiVo logos come on while it's switching. I told them flat out if I can't block it the third time it happens I cancel my service period. It's going to cost a bundle to set up a PC based system but I'd rather do that than pay TiVo $13 a month to record infomercials. Sad to see TiVo go down this road. It was fun while it lasted but I'm sick of being sold to 24/7. I already turn off the sound routinely during commercials because they boost the sound during commercials. Yes some guy going for a beer will still hear it but I never hear them at all so you can try to sell to the guy in the kitchen. Obnoxious advertising doesn't work. People just shut down after awhile and the solution isn't more advertising.

Re:Infomercials

[javaxman]

Twice now this week at 1am my TiVo prompted me about a program to record. The first time I let it assuming it was a season pass I had set up. It switched to an infomercial. It wasn't a normal recording and I had a time switching it back to the channel I was watching. Last night it happened a second time exactly the same way. When it prompts to change it doesn't tell you what it's switching to just it's some kind of TiVo extra.

That's weird, that's never happened to me. Let's see, you're
(a) watching live TV
(b) at 1 A.M... now there's a couple of things not a lot of Tivo users do... and
(c) I assume you're not using a DirecTivo or dual tuners would prevent this problem...

Did the recorded show appear on your Now Playing list? It could be that this was some channel the Tivo was set up to record some content for the 'showcase' feature... that, or... I don't use the "Wishlist" feature, perhaps something in the infomercial description triggered the recording? My guess, though, is that it's a 'showcase' content channel... you don't mention what service you use, but that's the only thing I can imagine. Again, I've never had or heard of such a problem... and I also wasn't able to find a similar issue searching the Tivo forums... curious...

Re:Infomercials

[Belseth]

I had already disabled everything you can, the TiVo suggestions and such. TiVo plead ignorance but the joke was a TiVo log came up proudly anouncing that they were switching me to special content or some such thing, I was scrambling for the remote at the time. They absolutely were doing it from there end. It never showed up in the To Do List and the weirdest thing was eventhough the recording light was on it didn't show up in the now playing. All I can think is I got caught up in a stealth test market of a feature to switch you to paid infomercials. Everyone is denying it but that's twice this week at exactly the same offhour time. I told them flat out one more time and I cancel my service. It's definately not a normal recording and it's very hard to stop. As soon as I can aford to I'll build out a Linux box. Just don't have the time and money right now.

Re:Infomercials

[oMaT]

Most of the time your TiVo is recording the content thats too large to simply transfer to your unit. You don't honestly think it downloads those trailers and such when it dials in, do you? This is the only viable way TiVo has of getting the content to the machine. They've set up deals with broadcasters to air the programming late at night and to have the TiVo invisibily (at least when most people are asleep at 1-2am) record it for your convenience. It can be a hassle for us night-owls but I rather enjoy the extra trailers, show teasers and the like so I usually don't eff with it. *shrug*

If it's something you absolutely cannot live with, then yeah, I guess a DIY approach will be best for you as you'll gain that control. Cheers.

Re:Infomercials

[Anonymous Coward]

Go through the guide and give 3 Thumbs Down to things like "Paid Programming" and it won't record Infomercials as suggestions anymore.

There's nothing to get

[Quiet_Desperation]

Because a Tivo generally does what people want it to do. Of all Tivo owners I know, and it's quite a few, I'm the only one who even follows it enough to know about this issue. Tivo still acts as an easy digital VCR with nice software and a generally reliable schedule. That's what most people are after.

I don't know a single one in real life, as opposed to message boards, who give a flip about transfering shows to their PCs. Most don't even bother with PPV movies, which is what the expiration flag is intended for. It's just not that important. If they really, desperately want a season of a show, they buy the box set for $60 rather than spend who knows how long formatting and burning their own DVDs.

That's the thing people who push the "roll your own" solutions forget: the TIME involved. They place no value on their time. I have the skill level to do a MythTV. Heck, I have the skill to WRITE a DVR solution, but I read accounts of installs, and I'd have to be on a steady diet of boilermakers and cheap crack to waste my time like that for something as trical as television.

And if a network activates the flag to prevent recording of their show? Fuck 'em. Who cares? No Tivo owners will watch. The network is just hurting themselves.

Re:There's nothing to get

[Atario]

spend who knows how long formatting and burning their own DVDs.

You format your own DVDs? Hard core, man. Fucking hard core.

That's the thing people who push the "roll your own" solutions forget: the TIME involved. They place no value on their time.

Or perhaps they place a greater value on their freedom.

Re:There's nothing to get

[Quiet_Desperation]

You format your own DVDs? Hard core, man. Fucking hard core.

Geezus... Formatting the video. Encoding it into something a DVD player recognizes. You savvy?

Or perhaps they place a greater value on their freedom.

That's another wacky concept. As if anything to do with DVRs is some sort of major blow for freedom against the Man, as the rag tag rebel fleet yada yada yada. It's histrionics, Atario. Nothing but sound and fury.

Re:There's nothing to get

[Atario]

Geezus... Formatting the video. Encoding it into something a DVD player recognizes. You savvy?

Seems to me that's something you only need to figure out (meaning not how to make the transformation, but how to use the program that performs the transformation for you) once. After that, you just do the same steps again. Not difficult.

Or perhaps they place a greater value on their freedom.

That's another wacky concept. As if anything to do with DVRs is some sort of major blow for freedom against the Man, as the rag tag rebel fleet yada yada yada. It's histrionics, Atario. Nothing but sound and fury.

Yeah. Ok. How about this: I sell you something, then tell you how and when you can and cannot use it, when and to whom you can and cannot sell it, and the punishments involved in violating any of my rules. I continue to do this to you for all eternity. I do this first with more insubstantial things -- video content, music. Later, more concrete things -- the hardware that this content plays on. Then more far-flung objects: consumer electronics generally; consumer products generally. Then the utilities all your other activities depend on: electricity, gas, the very water you drink. (Think it can't happen? It has. Check out The Corporation .)

You don't mind? It's all meaningless? Then you deserve whatever corporate big-brotherist hell you wind up in.

The rest of us, not so much.

Misspelling

[SheeEttin]

We've touched on this topic in the past.

They misspelled "dupe".

Re:Misspelling

[Anonymous Coward]

Shut up. Karma whore.

Which user's fears? Oh, you mean USERS' fears...

[Anonymous Coward]

if a user has fears: "user's fears"
if USERS have fears: "users' fears"

this message brought to you by the character ' and the number e...

sincerely,
word bitch

Content owners laughing all the way to the bank

[gorbachev]

"If customers can't do something with their TiVo that they could in the past, they will stop using it."

Wouldn't that be a great day for the content owners.

Nobody skipping ads any more, nobody storing broadcast shows into digital format ready to be whisked away to other devices at the user's whim, etc. Heavens, the users might actually be persuaded to license the right to record a show in some not too distant future! Let's do it!

Re:Content owners laughing all the way to the bank

[BigTunaCan]

I don't think the point is that Digital Recorders in general would no longer be used, just TiVo specifically. There are DIY Digital Recorders available like MythTV. As these other solutions mature they will eventually replace TiVo in the mainstream if TiVo continues to introduce recording limitations.

Re:Content owners laughing all the way to the bank

[Cro Magnon]

Wouldn't that be a great day for the content owners

Nope, because the day DRM forces me to throw my Tivo out the window, my TV will hit the ground first!

DIY

[tktk]

I know people are going to mention MythTV and other DIY solutions. But I was wondering, is there a project out to completely hack a Tivo into running MythTV? That way, if the worse case happens, Tivo owners with computer skills can just migrate to other software while still using the Tivo hardware.

Re:DIY

[enrico_suave]

the answer is no... the Tivo hardware is too distinct and too underpowered to run mythtv as it is architectured now... Can you imagine running a mysql database on a 33mhz CPU? and that's just the DB!

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo-WRONG!

[monkeydo]

I have yet to hear of any copyright statute in law that says a copyright holder can regulate your use of content after you've purchased it - or received it for free over the air.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but that's exactly what copyright is all about. Title 17 of the US Code tells you what you may or may not do with copyrighted content without the owner's permission. Specifcally, 17 USC 106 states:

The owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:
(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;

Yes, there are stautory and judicial exceptions to that exclusivity, but there you go.

Re:A cell phone jammer? What a great idea!

[NanoGator]

"... and I'd love to be able to carry a portable jammer in my car so I could *terminate* their unsafe conversations and help them to concentrate on the multi-ton metal object they're supposedly "in control" of..."

That's great until some other guy with a jammer parks in front of your house.

I don't care if cell phone use in cars is outlawed, but jamming is not the solution. It's a social problem, not a techniacl problem.

No one cares

[Anonymous Coward]

Really, no one gives a damn. It does not mean anything. I *do* watch TV, and I make well into six figures a year and I *write* textbooks ("I read books" is another tired claim of the anti-TV cabal). I know a couple people where I work who also swore off TV, and I wouldn't trust them to guess my weight.

"I don't watch TV" is an utterly meaningless statement, and carries no information beyond a being a signpost of an inferior and desperate personality.

Trust me, it isn't a necessity for survival, etc.

Nice strawman. No one claims that it is, you utter fool.

Re:No one cares

[Anonymous Coward]

>>"I don't watch TV" is an utterly meaningless statement, and carries no information beyond a being a signpost of an inferior and desperate personality....

and

>>Nice strawman. No one claims that it is, you utter fool.

Wow! Testy testy! It must be the withdrawl symptoms. You had better get your fix. Quickly now - Survivor is showing.

Addict.

Re:No one cares

[JonTurner]

First of all, you violated the basic tenets of logic by beginning an arguem... WHAT? I'M MISSING SURVIVOR? DAMMIT!!! [dashes to television set]

Sure! Oh wait...

[BLKMGK]

As soon as there are SAT and Cable decoders that can be put into my home PC turned Myth box that allow me to record premium content the way I can with my hacked DTIVO I'll do it - in a heartbeat. However right now the best thing Myth seems to offer is OTA HD. Or maybe I could buy multiple cable\SAT decoder boxes and lash them to the Myth box with IRDA dongles? Umm, no thanks.

Myth is way cool, I LOVE the idea I really do. However it cannot give me what I *currently* have with the DTIVO being used in my home now. NO, *my* TIVO doesn't have this DRM code and *no* it won't have the code unless I allow it - and I'm not. I also do not see those FFWD commercials. I'm actually 2 revisions back with my DTIVO running software never meant for my box. (lol) I'll move to the 6.x code soon, really I will. But 7.2x can goto hell, I see no reason to run it and lots of reasons not to.

In any case, until I can get what I want out of MythTV I'm not wasting my time building one. OTA broadcast stuff I gave up years ago and I refuse to go back. The day they can decode my digital cable directly or attach to my SAT dish directly (as can be done in other countries apparently) I'll switch but not until then. If my TIVO suddenly stops working because they have blocked my hacks then I'll happily return it and my DIRECT subscription too.

P.S. Yes, I can do extraction, streaming, and other things on my box. http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/ The funny thing is that I'm far from bleeding edge with what I've done on my machine!

Re:Sure! Oh wait...

[i_am_profiled]

Exactly. If there was a CableCard out there so I could get my digital cable, I'd be all over some sort of PC based DVR.

Re:Sure! Oh wait...

[bonehead]

I'm in the same boat as you, almost.

First, I have no real desire to move beyond the 4.x code. Second, I actually have a MythTV box hooked up in addition to my DTIVOs.

While Myth is worthless for recording anything other than OTA TV, the other funtionality that it provides comes in handy.

Re:Sure! Oh wait...

[Dachannien]

I'm the other way around - I'd be all over digital cable if I could get a CableCard-ready PCI card to slap in my PVR.

Unfortunately, the industry has the license wrapped up in various requirements, ones that somehow don't violate antitrust laws, that pretty much make it impossible for a company that's unwilling to fellate the entertainment industry to produce such a device.

Re:Sure! Oh wait...

[Atario]

Or maybe I could buy multiple cable\SAT decoder boxes and lash them to the Myth box with IRDA dongles? Umm, no thanks.

What are you -- some kind of wuss??

Re:Sure! Oh wait...

[BLKMGK]

Nah, I'm just not a fan of spending MORE to get LESS. :-P

sky+ works fine...

[TheCoop1984]

well, I can time skip, record programs, record to dvd, record series etc fine using a sky+ box. The only problem is that you need to buy a satellite dish with it

Re:sky+ works fine...

[enrico_suave]

well it's cool it works for you and you're happy... but even sky+ has issues sometimes

It's interesting that they can do this...

[Eric Damron]

If I took my car in for maintenance and when I picked it up they said "Oh, and by the way, we removed the AC and power breaks." there would be real problems. It seems to me if you buy a piece of hardware you do so with the understanding that you are purchasing the functionality of that unit. To reduce its functionality seems a breach of trust.

Get a look at Tivo's other misdeeds

[Anonymous Coward]

http://malfeasance.50megs.com/

Re:If you buy something because of promised featur

[Bastian]

With Tivo's basic business model, you buy the Tivo as a way to connect to the Tivo service, and then pay a monthly fee to use that service. Under this model, what Tivo is doing is probaply okay in the same way that a cell phone company would be within the rights to change the terms of the service for peope who pay month-to-month or who have prepaid wireless.

On the other hand, I have a lifetime subscription for my Tivo. My understanding of the arrangement is that I paid a flat fee for a certain type of service, so I should be able to keep that kind of service even if Tivo changes what it offers to new customers.

But the trump of this is, I signed a contract and license agreement. So I can't complain - I knew this was probably coming, anyway. I think a lot of Tivoers are overreacting - so far it hasn't affected my service much, either - all my shows are still there by the time I get around to watching them, though we'll see what happens after this vacation I'm going on tomorrow.

Regardless, I think that the issue shouldn't be raised with Tivo, it should be raised with the EFF, the FCC, and, failing them, Congress.

I can't speak for cable users, but personally I find there to be something that's just a little bit insane about laws limiting personal use for something that's been blasted out into the universe for anyone with a radio antenna to receive. I'm fine with laws limiting redistribution and piracy, but if they're allowed to encode it into photons and then shoot them through my skull, I should be able to at least record it and watch it at my leisure, even 15 years later.

Sue over TV?

[Karma_fucker_sucker]

I don't know about you, but I really don't think it would be worth suing over this. You'd have attourney's fees and just the time and aggrevation. Maybe there would be a class action suit, which you could wait a few years to settle and get $0.40 on the dollar (at most) for all of this trouble.

I'm TIVO knows what's at risk and they're going to fight it the best they can.

Re:Sue over TV?

[NineNine]

If a couple of Tivo nuts (and from what I understand, TIVO people are almost as bad as Apple people) even START a class action lawsuit, TIVO will cave. What company (especially a realtively new company) wants the expense and the bad PR of a class action lawsuit? Either that, or just dump the fucking TIVO. After all, it's really just TV. I've lived for 5 years with no TV at all and I'm still alive. It can be done.

My EFF Letter

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a constituent who sees an obvious need for copyright law reform, and I am writing to urge you to support the Digital Media Consumers' Rights Act (DMCRA, HR 1201).

HR 1201 addresses many problems stemming from the 1998 Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA); this act has placed numerous burdens on music consumers which serve the interests of large music corporations alone. HR 1201 would relieve some of these burdens by ensuring that a consumer can't be prosecuted for violating the "anti-circumvention" statutes of the DMCA, so long as his or her use of the underlying copyrighted material is lawful.

For example, HR 1201 would remove the legal ambiguity around the act of creating a backup of a lawfully obtained DVD or CD. CDs with copyright protection schemes render their music playable only with CD players or computers that support the content protection software. HR 1201 would ensure that a user can listen to CDs that he or she buys in any context: cassette tape, MP3 player, or a computer running Linux. It would preserve and ensure consumers' fair use rights.

As an Information Science student at the University of Washington, I have interests outside the music and video arenas (although I am an active consumer in both arenas): I am very interested in studying encryption technology. However, the DMCA's "anti-circumvention" statutes prohibit the evaluation of such technology, even in an academic context. To this tune, the last time either the Information School or the Computer Science department offered a Cryptography class at the University of Washington was the winter of 1999, immediately following the DMCA's passage. For six years, this important subject has been banished in the name of copyright protection.

Today, copyright holders regularly block these legitimate activities by making it technically difficult to make legal copies, and under the DMCA it's legally risky to do so. The study of cryptographic technology has been relegated to the realm of outdated and useless techniques, stifling innovation. HR 1201 corrects these problems. This is a long overdue reform to our copyright law, and I hope that we can go even further to legalize the tools that allow people to exercise these rights. For some even better language, please see last Congress' version of the DMCRA, H.R. 107.

In addition, the bill would codify the "Betamax defense," which has been under attack by the entertainment industries in the "INDUCE Act" last year and in cases like MGM v. Grokster. This would make it clear that a technology innovator will not be held responsible for every copyright infringement committed by his or her customers, so long as the technology is capable of noninfringing uses. One of the foundational intentions of copyright law is the stimulation of innovation; why then have incredibly innovative technologies been subjugated and deemed less important than those copyrights the music industry holds? The bill would allow research, invention, and copyrights to cohabitate; it would also place the onus of keeping copyright laws back on the consumer, where it belongs.

I urge you to address this important issue by becoming a co-sponsor of HR 1201. Thank you for your time.

In Soviet Russia ...

[Luuvitonen]

... the flags are red.

Oh wait!

devil's advocate

[shmlco]

Though, just to play devil's advocate, one might ask why you should have some of those abilities.

Yes, you can time-shift regular programming. But why should you be able to time-shift video-on-demand? I mean, you can start the show any time you wish, so it's not like it's only on at 8:00, and you need to record it so you can watch it at 9:00 when you get home.

And part of pay-per-view is pay-PER-view. In essence, it's like buying a movie ticket to see a certain show at a certain time. But having bought one ticket doesn't mean I can go back to the theater and watch it again and again.

Forgive me, but these seem like reasonable restrictions...

Re:devil's advocate

[yagu]

1. Yes, you can time-shift regular programming. But why should you be able to time-shift video-on-demand? I mean, you can start the show any time you wish, so it's not like it's only on at 8:00, and you need to record it so you can watch it at 9:00 when you get home.

   The provider I have does not have video on demand. And, if they did, and were I to pay for it, I don't think I'd have any problem with not being able to record it. Heck, it doesn't even fit in the tivo paradigm (i.e., it's not a known scheduled show).

2. And part of pay-per-view is pay-PER-view.

   Well, at least currently that's not entirely true. When I pay for my "pay per view", it is repeatedly available throughout the entire day. And I don't see the ability to record a pay-per-view and store it, then watch it more than once is the threat to the industry they claim it is. Most customers really will watch once or twice, it doesn't change the providers' bottom lines, and it doesn't change viewers' viewing habits. But, once you unleash the restrictions (how ironic) I think the potential backlash from customers could bring down the IP paranoids' houses of cards.

I appreciate your thoughts as devil's advocate. And I think you make valid points. I disagree that even in light of your points these restrictions are reasonable for the following reasons:

• they're backpedaling on capabilities I originally had (and ostensibly paid for)
• they're changing rules with no promises of not making more restrictive rule changes
• hmmmm, my mind's a blank.... (but I won't be able to record anything on it

Bottom line, I don't trust anymore. I reached my fatigue threshold with seemingly getting one thing (in the world of gadgets) and ending up with something else less than what I'd originally expected.

Re:devil's advocate

[Secrity]

The most obvious problem with your argument is that Tivo has been red flagging non-PPV programs.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo-WRONG!

[GoRK]

Every VCR I have ever seen does implement macrovision.. at least in a way it does because although it would be technically possible (and really quite easy) to build a VCR that has an AGC circuit that is impervious to Macrovision-type protections, no VCR maker has stepped forward and done it (at least that I know about)

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo-WRONG!

[shotfeel]

I agree to a large degree, but IMO Congress gets much of the blame.

An example I've used before is the DVD player. AFAIK there's no law requiring DVD manufacturers to enforce the instructions that prevent me from fast-forwarding or skipping whatever I want on the DVD (FBI/Interpol warnings, previews...). So why do they do it when its obvious that's not what consumers want?

The only answer I have is that they do this is that they need a valid DCSS key to play the content if they don't want to run afoul of the DMCA. To get that, they have to sign a license from the MPAA saying they will enforce their restrictions on DVD playback.

And who do we have to blame for the DMCA?

Tivo and other companies are going to run into this next. They can't "decrypt" or even provide the MPAA covered material without a license from the MPAA, and that license now stipulates enforcment of MPAA limitations.

This does go much farther than any other type of copyright protection. If I buy a book or a painting, I can color on it if I want, change the content, resell it, display it anywhere anytime I want. Welcome to the digital age.

Re:Even with the broadcast flag, TiVo getting bett

[DeadSea]

But you did the initial setup over the phone line. Up until this software release, you could not plug a brand new TiVo into a wireless network card, choose your zipcode, and bring up your TiVo.

There was just no way to choose the wireless network and enter the WEP key during initial setup.

go sage tv

[Anonymous Coward]

the day tivo does start doing this is the day i go to sage tv, wait, i already did

Here's a step-by-step video to show you how.

[jbn-o]

Systm has a show on MythTV in a variety of formats including Ogg Vorbis+Theora. The show is licensed to share under a Creative Commons license, as are the other episodes of Systm.

Re:A cell phone jammer? What a great idea!

[Anonymous Coward]

You're kidding, right? No, I guess you're not.

Cell phones are *less* distracting than having a passenger in the driver's compartment. A cell phone can be dropped or ignored in the event of an emergency situation. Passengers become more distracting in an emergency situation, save for the few who freeze up when they go into shock, but that is comparatively rare. Passengers also demand more attention and often interact physically with the driver.

The associated risks of driving with a BAC > 0.10 are much higher than driving while talking on the cell phone. I realize that many areas of the US are lowering the alcohol limit to the point where there is no longer discernible impairment in many people. If you live in one of these areas, I feel for you. You should move. Driving with a BAC of 0.05 is probably similar to driving while talking on a cell phone in that neither hampers your judgement or reaction time significantly.

You don't know what kind of conversation the person in the car is having. What if a man's daughter is on the phone with him talking about suicide and he is rushing there to intervene while trying to keep her calm. Yes, I realize that most fathers are not crisis centers but in an emergency situation (which is what cell phones are often used for) you don't always have lots of options. If you were to disconnect that conversation, something very bad may happen. While this may be an unlikely situation, how about a medical professional or trained emergency responder. These cases happen more often than you think.

The problem is not "using a cell phone while driving," but rather "some people don't pay enough attention while driving." What we need to do is take away their driver's license, whether they use cell phones or not. This will solve your problem of people being inattentive while driving, though I suspect you have a deeper issue with cell phones themselves, which you are not talking about in your post.

If you need to have a faster method of removing the innatentive cell-phone users from the roads, how about a special "cell-phone" permit for licenses. By taking a test you can prove you are able to concentrate on driving despite having a cell phone.

Re:All The More Reason - INTERACT-TV

[harumph]

Interact-TV is a Digital Home Entertainment Center kinda like HPs deal. Only Interact is built on a linux platform. www.interact-tv.com

The answer is

[Bullfish]

The answer to the question asked is: (paraphrase) If you lost functionality on a device would you stop using it? The answer is: Of course. Why would you not? I especially would not buy the product. The same goes for expiring DVD's and CD's, drm radio etc

These techniques will not lead to more sales. I would bet money on that.

tivo loses a little market share

[Anonymous Coward]

All the geeks are pissed off that tivo is grabbing their ankles for DRM.

What stopping those same geeks from slapping a tv tuner into their next pc and cutting tivo out of the loop all together?

I'll be blunt.

[TheGSRGuy]

If a DRM flag prevents me from watching something I want, my TiVo will be listed on eBay immediately, and an XP MCE box will replace it.

Re:I'll be blunt.

[enrico_suave]

"if a DRM flag prevents me from watching something I want, my TiVo will be listed on eBay immediately, and an XP MCE box will replace it."

Uhm... MCE 2005 wraps their MPEG2's in DRM as well, and oh just you wait till Vista MCE Flavor...

(if you mean MCE generically and not MCE 2005, carry on... my bad)

e.

Content Protection vs Market Demands

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't blame the Tivo Corp. They are just doing what they feel is necessary to insure there is content for there boxes. What I don't understand, though, is why they don't give the consumer the option of opting out recording/viewing protected content. Personally, I'd like to be able to tell my box not to record any protected content. I don't feel a need to help support protected content through rates or cash.

I'd advise everyone who owns a Tivo to do what I am and notify Tivo via snail mail of your interest in having this opt out function added to the software. After all, protected content isn't worth anything once its ratings tank.

I have been pretty unimpressed with TiVo

[cnaumann]

My Series 1 TiVo took a lighnting hit last month and it knocked out the modem. I was paying by the month. I called to cancel my subscription, and the rep told asked if I was interested in a new Series 2 TiVo.
"No, not really."
"Have you _seen_ the new TiVos?"
"Yes, I have. They still only have a single tuner and very limited disk storage. I don't really care about all the other features." (I had upgraded my series 1 to 130 hours with my own 80G HD.)

I was also annoyed that they had just billed me for the next month of service that I had not used it and could not use, and they refused to give me a refund. And now this!

The funny thing is that I am still using my TiVo, I am just manually recording everything. Setting the clock will be a little difficult, but other than that, I have not really missed the TiVo Service that much, even though I subscribed to it for several years.

Re:I have been pretty unimpressed with TiVo

[bonehead]

In case you're interested, it is possible to attach an external modem to the TiVo and get the TiVo service functional again. Or, if you want to go the extra mile, you could add a network card and set it up to do daily calls over your Internet connection, plus all of the other cool hacks that become possible once you have network connectivity.

Maybe off topic & Karma Suicide

[Brass Cannon]

I use a MythTV box that a friend programmed for me. I love it but it is essentially a black box to me (literally) because I am not a programmer.

I am trying to resolve what seems like a contradiction.

1 - open source software is constantly (on Slashdot) said to be the way to go.

2 - TiVo has an interface that appears to be an order of magnitude better than Myth

This seems like a contradiction in my mind.

If Myth is open source and so many people are improving it and making feature additions then how come the average fairly intelligent person (I am an engineer) can't, with a minimum of fuss, install the software, have it find the installed hardware and configure itself accordingly?

Myth is great because it's independent & free of restrictions. It does not seem up to par on some things you would expect to do easily (watch a DVD, Archive to DVD, program on screen, for which I use the mythweb function almost exclusively). This is my first experience with open source and it seems like it's not yet ready for prime time.

Re:Maybe off topic & Karma Suicide

[hacksoncode]

Because, frankly, polishing stuff so it's easy to install and configure is boring work that no one really wants to do. In the open source world that means it doesn't get done unless there's some organization with the power and motivation to assign someone to do it.

Re:Maybe off topic & Karma Suicide

[Brass Cannon]

Fair enough on the install stuff but the feature stuff sounds sexy & worth doing. Why no progress there?

Re:Maybe off topic & Karma Suicide

[Bassman59]

"Because, frankly, polishing stuff so it's easy to install and configure is boring work that no one really wants to do. In the open source world that means it doesn't get done unless there's some organization with the power and motivation to assign someone to do it."

And this is why many otherwise excellent open-source projects will remain marginalized.

If the user can't figure out how to make it work, it's broken.

Re:Maybe off topic & Karma Suicide

[LazyBoy]

TiVo has an interface that appears to be an order of magnitude better than Myth

It's easily two orders of magnitude better.

Re:Maybe off topic & Karma Suicide

[lightspawn]

I use a MythTV box that a friend programmed for me. I love it but it is essentially a black box to me (literally) because I am not a programmer.

You mean metaphorically... if it's a black box to you (literally) its because it's actually black.

Re:Maybe off topic & Karma Suicide

[Anonymous Coward]

No, he really did mean literally. His friend hacked an old plane's inflight recorder.

Re:Maybe off topic & Karma Suicide

[Brass Cannon]

Actually both. Black box - I don't understand how it works and black box - it's actually black. I think you knew what I meant though...

Re:Maybe off topic & Karma Suicide

[dmaxwell]

Tivo is in the same situation as Apple. They absolutely control a limited number of hardware configurations. Just Making It Work is very easy under such circumstances and they can concentrate their efforts on implementing the results of usability and marketing studies.

MythTV on the other hand has support a multitude of configurations on J. Random Hardware. Furthermore it has to rely on "third party" software such as MySQL and X.Org because largely because of the first issue. It is a fairly mammoth amount of work keeping it Possible To Install on a galaxy of configurations much less making it all work in five clicks. There is also a pretty steady demand for new features and the time required to debug ones recently added. What you have is a limited amount of manpower trying to solve a much harder problem than the one Tivo Inc. has to solve.

That said there ARE easier ways. Knoppmyth will do it as painlessly as it is possible to do. It is based on Knoppix and will do most of the icky hardware configuration for you. It also includes an installer that asks a minimum of questions to give you a functional PVR. The only catch is that it has to know about all of the hardware you are using.

If you think of MythTV as a upstream project rather than the All Knowing Source then you can see where the polish can come from. MythTV is an application that implements PVR functionality. That's it. It takes a distribution to bring the rest of the drivers and dependencies into a coherent polished whole. KnoppMyth is one attempt to do this.

Don't presume to know me.

[HTH NE1]

if one can simply program their DVR to record every single show, they're not likely to buy it, especially if they can transfer the show to tape or DVD-R afterwards.

I can simply program my DVR to record every single show, and I can and do transfer shows to tape or DVD-R afterwards. I am still very likely to buy it on DVD because I know how inferior my copies are compared to the commercial offerings.

I wouldn't buy it on VHS though, but that's not because my recordings are better than VHS quality but rather because VHS is not durable enough for my money. VHS is a no-sale with me today.

And further, even if I had been archiving HD-quality broadcast recordings of Lost to hard drives and using a system that lets me play them back on my HDTV using swappable bays or other media server solutions, I'd still have bought the SD DVD box. The only thing that would have deterred me from buying SD DVDs is if HD-DVD or Blu-Ray options were available.

If you can't believe that, if you believe that no one would behave as I do, if you believe you would never buy what you'd already burned for free, then perhaps you should examine your own honesty.

Re:Don't presume to know me.

[iminplaya]

...because VHS is not durable enough for my money.

I have some 20 year old tapes that look just fine. In light of how badly the digital media is being made, I can only hope that your DVDs will last as long. Small tracking problems and dropouts are much less annoying than the pixelation and sometimes complete lockup that the DVD provides. All this even on new disks and players. Lots of my friends can still play their 30-40 year old records. Let's see if digital holds up as long without having to constantly re-record it to new media as the old one rots. I remember hearing all the promises of digital back in the late 70s when laser discs(I know, not digital, blah, blah, blah. I'm talking about the medium) came out(try to find a player for one of those now). So far they're not holding up. If you want your grandkids to see what you recorded, you will need to archive it to film. It will play on 100 year old equipment. What are you going to play your DVDs on when a new format comes out and your player breaks down?

Re:Don't presume to know me.

[squiggleslash]

If you can't believe that, if you believe that no one would behave as I do, if you believe you would never buy what you'd already burned for free, then perhaps you should examine your own honesty.

I'm not really sure what tempted you to write the crack-addled diatribe, but for what it's worth:

1. Yes, I believe a significant number of people given the opportunity to just record and archive with little intervention on their part will do so in preference to buying DVD sets of TV shows that have been freely broadcast. The fact you wouldn't is neither here nor there.

2. I don't believe that recording and archiving TV shows that are being broadcast for free is in any way immoral or "dishonest". I have major problems with people who stick stuff without authorization from the copyright holder on P2P networks or download it in preference to buying it, I have major problems with the "morality" of most Slashdotters I read who will justify any "cool technology" that gives them something for free that they'd otherwise pay for regardless of whether it actually damages the people who create the things that they take. However, in this specific instance, making a copy of something that's output for free, I don't see any moral objection whatsoever. I'd sincerely like to hear why you think someone who records a TV program in preference to buying the DVD set is "dishonest".

Re:Don't presume to know me.

[HTH NE1]

I'm not really sure what tempted you to write the crack-addled diatribe.... I'd sincerely like to hear why you think someone who records a TV program in preference to buying the DVD set is "dishonest".

It came from your argument.

You were using the likelihood that people like me did not exist to support making the devices I use illegal (suggesting that the betamax decision is ripe for overturning). What I'm doing is standing up to be counted. Just because I can record in digital form doesn't make my use no longer fair and I can demonstrate my exercise thereto has not diminished the market for the commercial work.

I too don't see anything wrong with archiving TV which has already been paid for by advertisers (or contributing members of public television) and provided to me for free, or paid for by my by way of francise fees in my cable bill, premium channel fees, and if I were so inclined to use them, PPV fees. The fact that I still buy whenever it becomes possible goes toward the non-diminishment of the commercial value of the product, which you use as the basis for a possible overturning of the Betamax decision.

If the lack of diminishment of the value of the commercial work is the basis for making time- and space-shifting of television fair use, and with it enables archiving (which is not explicitly protected), then I'm here to say that my archiving does not diminish that value, and anyone else who exercises their ability to record to the extent of archiving television should behave the same way.

But if the law changes as you say to presume that I would not buy it, a priori limiting my fair use against archiving (and worse, arbitrarily defining fair use time-shifting to only one week and eliminating space-shifting entirely), then there goes my incentive to buy it. I'm already responding to the carrot; I'll rebel against the stick.

BTW, the ability to time- and space-shift allowed me to learn more about the editing process in comparing the long and short versions of the Stargate SG-1 episode "Threads", including that the shortened version contained little bits that were not in the long version and had at least one alterated line from an alternate take. (You can't make the short version using only the long one and an editing script; additional video is required, which may become lost to the public in the future if not archived today.)

I could not have achieved as complate of an appreciation of the work of editors if I could only hold onto the episodes for a week and was prevented from shifting them to other media. (I don't expect both versions to be made available on DVD. Alas, one act of the long version accidentally got deleted preventing a full comparison.)

However, they may object to me making the same discoveries between episodes of M*A*S*H edited for more commercials in syndication and the DVD releases.

Re:Don't presume to know me.

[squiggleslash]

You were using the likelihood that people like me did not exist to support making the devices I use illegal (suggesting that the betamax decision is ripe for overturning). What I'm doing is standing up to be counted. Just because I can record in digital form doesn't make my use no longer fair and I can demonstrate my exercise thereto has not diminished the market for the commercial work.

No, I wasn't. I was using the fact that a market has been created for selling TV shows to people who hadn't watched them at the time for arguing that the Betamax ruling is no longer valid, that as a matter of law it's highly unlikely the Supreme Court would rule the same way again. Far from arguing it should be made illegal, I argued Congress needs to intervene and make it legal.

So, again, lay off the crack.

American Human Nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Here we go again. So the big media companies are out to get us again. Like the average american on the street will care or do anything about it. With all the legislation and lawsuits going on, has any of it stopped people from buying Tivo's, DVDs or music CDs? No. Media companies are still making a huge profit because your average person on the street couldn't really give a damn about the latest "red flag" technology. People are sheep and will do whatever CNN/Fox/local news tells them to do. A few Slashdotters will sell their Tivos on eBay, and maybe a few will stop buying DVD/CDs. But millions of Americans will go on watching/listening anyways.

New National Motto: "Whatever!"

linux on tivo

[confusias]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm linux stupid I'm ashamed to say, but doesn't tivo use a linux o/s in thier box? Would it not be a matter of a linux savy tivo user making a distro capable of running the then defuct tivo device?

Subscription?

[n6kuy]

WTF?
Why does a recording device need a subscription to do its thang?
Y'all shoulda knowed this was a-comin' if'n it needed a "subscription" to keep it a-workin'.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo-WRONG!

[khrtt]

I thought, copyright law allows the content provider to restrict what you can do with the content, not to restrict what equipment you can sell. Only DMCA puts restrictions on equipment manufacturers.

ReplayTV 5504 has commercial skipping

[HappyEngineer]

The model# on my ReplayTV is RTV5504 and I've got commercial skipping.

Buy a ReplayTV

[HappyEngineer]

Buy a ReplayTV. Tivo isn't the only game in town. Slashdot has had a bunch of Tivo articles complaining about Tivo restrictions. ReplayTV has all the same features without any of that stupid stuff.

And to think, all of you TiVo lovers were bashing

[pappy97]

And to think, all of you TiVo lovers were bashing cable DVR boxes in past threads re: DVR units.

I haven't heard ANYTHING about broadcasters flagging programs on cable DVR boxes.

He who laughs last, laughs best. To the death of TiVo, especially if you have cable and should have gotten a DVR box from them!

Replacing TiVo's Software

[DonGiaconia]

This just makes me wonder how quickly people will start hacking TiVo's to replace the operating software with something that downloads program listings without needing to use the TiVo service. Since the TiVo can be connected to a router by installing a usb network device, I would imagine you could use this to gain access into the TiVo and replace the software. Unless this has already been done, in which case its just a matter of it becomming much more common. I would try it except i've never had a TiVo... I prefer ATI all-in-wonder cards in a desktop computer with lots of hard drive space and a DVD burner.

Re:Replacing TiVo's Software

[enrico_suave]

you don't have to replace tivo's software to upload your own guide data to a tivo. You basically setup your network/tivo to pull listings from your "server" instead of from the Tivo mothership...

This is what Canadians (who until recently could NOT get tivo... now they can import Tivo and tivo will let them subscribe/get listings) had figured out how to use Tivo north of the border...

I've always thought that someone should offer tivo compatible listings for half the price...

e.

Re:Replacing TiVo's Software

[DonGiaconia]

So then effectively you can already get around the changes that TiVo will be making... Your own server won't have the 'flags' unless you reconfigure it that way, right?

Re:Replacing TiVo's Software

[enrico_suave]

no.. the flags are in the content itself and the code to interpret/enforce these macrovision flags are in the TiVo software... So you'd still potentiall have this issue if it becomes widespread (delete in 7 days/no copy flag enabled at the network head ends)

e.

Re:If you buy something because of promised featur

[QuestorTapes]

> If you buy something because of promised features and later the company takes
> away some of that capability, do you have some legal basis for claiming false
> advertising, or reneging on contract, or something like that?

IANAL, but in the US, yes, you can sue. You -may or may not win-, and if you win, you might not win much.

It would depend on a number of things, on which the court could rule either way. A couple of things the court might consider would be:

- is TiVo a product or a service?
- is the right to persist a recording a significant piece of functionality, or not?
- what is the value of losing the right to keep recordings longer than [whatever period]

Frankly, I don't think much of the chances of success.

TiVo is a rather inexpensive product, hardware-only. The lost vaue would be minimal. If a TiVo only costs $200, it's hard to justify awarding significant amounts.

The courts would be unlikely to decide that the right to persist the recordings is more than a small percentage of the value of the TiVo, say 5 or 10 percent. So even if you win, all you win is a $20 rebate.

If TiVo is a service, the landscape is a little different, but not much brighter. If rule that the right to persist the recordings is a significant part of the contract value, they might require TiVo to offer the right to cancel without penalty and receive a pro-rated rebate for the unused part of the contract, but that's about as high as I can see the court going on this.

> I think this would be more of a question for people who paid for a lifetime
> subscription, but it also throws into the question the value of any future lifetime subscriptions,

You're right that it is more important regarding the lifetime subscriptions.

> because if their contract allows them to start adding restrictions after the fact, is it really of much value?

Actually, most "lifetime" contracts allow for some sort of unilateral modification by the issuer. The issue isn't whether they can alter the contract terms; they can. The question is whether they can alter them in this way, without allowing you to cancel and receive a pro-rated refund. They -probably- would need to offer some sort of cancellation offer, if people pushed it. But that's about as far as they would need to go.

IIRC, the TiVo lifetime contract is tied to the lifetime of the unit, not the purchaser. If so, the courts would probably pro-rate on the basis of expected unit life.

All in all, I think this would be a losing case to pursue. I don't think there is any chance the courts would consider something like this anything more than a minor issue.

Re:And to think, all of you TiVo lovers were bashi

[enrico_suave]

actually if i'm not mistaken... there were some issues with some scientific atlanta DVR boxes and "american idol" and "24" and some sort of inability to fast forward or tape it or something... glitch in the matrix you know...

BTW i'm pretty sure there are flags in cable co DVR's... the whole 5C thingie although that might just apply to firewire... I'm talking out my arse a little bit as I don't know all the ins and outs of digital cable box / DVR tech.. rest assured if there isn't a flag/DRM an update that you can't refuse will fix that, lickity split...

e.

I can't be in the minority...can I?

[cr0sh]

I develop software, and I see the complaint of polish and rebuttals similar to yours - and I wonder...

Why don't the developers care? When I develop an application or modify one to suit my needs, I take every step I can to make sure that it is the best possible application in every area. I make the UI as functional as possible, I try to make things very intuitive from a user standpoint (not my developer standpoint), if needed, I add helpful comments and such (popup help "tip" dialogs and tooltips) - I try to comment all my code very clearly (so that others and myself can understand it later), and I try to create some form of good documentation on how to install and use it. I also listen to my feedback, if I have any, and from time to time, I will update the project as time and needs demand (and update all the other stuff, like documentation, too).

For me, it is a pride thing - I am proud to be a software developer, I am proud to be able to make a computer "sing and dance". I want my software to be the best it can be within the limits of my abilities and time. I try to study other "bad examples" to figure out what is hated, and what to do better. I listen to users when they say they don't like this, or that could be improved, etc - and I try to incorporate those changes in if possible. Sometimes, during the course of development, I will think of something new that may make life easier for users (but wouldn't necessarily be needed *right now*) and I add it in, rather than glossing over it.

In a way, it seems like there are software developers out there who are the equivalent of car modders (ricers) who slap on a coffee can exhaust and a cheap intake, plus some cheesy wheel covers and body molding, and say "done!" - versus the car modders (racers) who take the time to do it all right, all the way down to paint, chrome, color scheme under the hood, full on real engine mods, computer work, etc - then polish the whole thing for show and looks - and what is under the hood is real, not some fake bunk that just "looks good"...

Then again, you do see more ricers than racers on the road, so maybe I *am* in a minority...

Re:If you buy something because of promised featur

[oMaT]

I'm sure, though I don't really know, that TiVo has a caveat in the contract for lifetime service that the terms of the agreement may change at any time. In effect saying that you're not paying for anything solid because they could change all the rules on you tomorrow and you couldn't do anything.

At least, if they were a mildly intelligent company they would. :)

This is destruction of personal property

[popo]

IANAL but as far as I know, if I record something for personal use -- that recording BELONGS TO ME. Yes, I am still restricted by copyright and that prevents me from selling, redistributing or publicly showing the work -- but aside from those restrictions, the work is mine. It is residing on my machine, which I paid for.

Doesn't this constitute destruction of personal property? Seems worthy of class action.

Or I'll just go the home theater PC route and donate to whichever open-source PVR software works best.

The poor entertainment industry and their failed business model. They're going to have a tantrum aren't they...

Re:If you buy something because of promised featur

[Anonymous Coward]

perhaps, along this line of thought, you could be storing all programmes as evidence for a future lawsuit based on radiowaves being harmful to your brain.

Just a thought.

Not surprising in the least.

[Inside_Joke]

It was only a matter of time. Soon shows will all have these flags. I can already see it. "Record and watch in the next 24 hours or it will be deleted forever." Or simply "NO, you can't record this."

Yeah. Great. This is why I still own a VCR.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo-WRONG!

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, Macrovision/Macromedia is running the encryption for TIVO? I'm out of the loop here but weren't they always about streaming media and animated web content?

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo-WRONG!

[Mr2001]

Actually, section 1201(k) of the DMCA requires VCRs to implement Macrovision. It doesn't apply to TiVo, though - it specifically mentions VHS, Beta, and 8mm analog video cassette recorders.

Suck to own a Tivo. Shoulda gone Replay!

[meehawl]

AVS

Planet Replay

Me too

[kcm]

I also got rid of my TiVo after this was not resolved or even addressed properly by TiVo. Too many bad features lately, not enough consumer advocacy. I am now TiVo-less for the first time in 4+ years. That says a lot.

Now of course you're right, but....

[JudgeFurious]

It's not like being right matters much in this fight. For the most part people aren't out there "buying" a TiVo anymore. They're getting one thrown in with whatever DirecTV or Time Warner cable package they buy. Yes, they "pay" for it. I'm not saying that they don't pay for it. I'm only saying that the purchase isn't quite like the one I made when I bought my ReplayTV a few years ago.

  It's less a quesiton of the TiVo being a device that's stopped working in some fashion and more about their cable or satellite provider no longer letting them do something they used to do. If people are mad because TiVo cut back the functionality they can what? Stop paying for the service? Not buy another one? These are effective tactics against a company that's angered you.

  If you see it as your satellite or cable provider cutting back functionality then what are you going to do? Cancel and go to a different one? Their TiVo's are just as crippled now. If your internet access is tied to your cable provider then are you going to ditch your ISP to make a statement about this? What if you're using internet phone?

  That's just one small example but do you see how they've tied enough stuff together to make it a pain in the butt to buck this. That's the way it's designed to work. that's the way they're going to fuck us out of our rights one by one.

Arguments against noise seem pretty weak

[Aexia]

O'Reilly wonders how the flag could be inadvertently set through noise and invokes the programs listings being fine. Because the listings aren't derived from the signal, dumbass?

I'm guessing the flag is part of the same part of the signal that does closed captioning. CC gets corrupted pretty easily but no one extrapolates that into some nefarious conspiracy at NBC to mock the hearing impaired.

The problem really is that the expiration flag is in the signal and can be enabled with no error checking at Tivo home central. It really ought be part of the program listings data.

And frankly, I don't see what the fuss is about having Pay Per View expire. I don't get upset because I can't bring a camcorder into a movie theatre. Why should I get upset about that?

As for MythTV... I can buy a TiVO box and it works. MythTV does not. It's saddled with that same user-hostile interface design philosophy that plagues nearly all open source software.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo-WRONG!

[Trepalium]

Macrovision and Macromedia are two separate, very different companies. Macrovision is in the copy prevention business, and has been for decades. Macrovision's products include SafeDisc (popular game copy prevention for CDs), CDS (audio CD copy prevention), and Macrovision (analog video copy prevention).

another incorrect use of "content"

[brre]

There is no "content creation industry" or "content industry" in question here. You mean the programming or entertainment or video production or TV industry.

Content is not being created here. Video is. Shows are.

Re:another incorrect use of "content"

[Nom du Keyboard]

There is no "content creation industry"

I beg to differ.

1: Google returns 747 hits for the phrase "content creation industry". That shows the phrase does have some general use.

2: Essentially everyone knows what I mean by it.

Re:another incorrect use of "content"

[brre]

Google returns 788,000 hits for "flat earth".

Google returns 574,000 hits for "creation science".

Obviously those must be valid terms and refer to real and legitimate things in the world.

Best kept secret: DVR/DVD burner combos

[Anonymous Coward]

The marketers don't want to sell what people really want in a DVR. It's not just control - its revenue; They push what keeps their revenue stream alive. All the retailers want to sell either TiVo, which they get a cut of, or a DVD burner only, so they can sell the media. The hard disk/DVD burner combos avoid all this - and consequently are nowhere to be found at most big box retailers. They do not want you to findout about free PVRs or even great combo units like those here:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/article/0,,2 076_4137_270670725,00.html

Replacement software

[Tekoneiric]

I just wish there was replacement software for Tivos. Something open source that would work with the hardware and bypass their pay guide service.

Installing mythtv is VERY HARD!!!!

[lorcha]

Here are the steps:

1. Insert Knoppmyth CD into your CD-ROM drive
2. Hit Ctrl-Alt-Delete
3. When the CD boots up, select option 2: Auto Install
4. There is no step 4.

Contrast that with the steps to set up TiVo:

1. Get in car and drive to Best Buy
2. Sit in an assload of traffic (I live in DC)
3. Deal with a 16-year-old moron trying to sell you the extended warantee
4. Wait in line at the cashier for 20 minutes
5. Have the cashier also attempt to sell you the extended warantee.
6. Sit in traffic on the way home.
7. Attach TiVo to your TV.
8. Start up your TiVo
9. Realize you have no program guide data, and you can't get it without a valid credit card.
10. Curse a lot.
11. Pay the machine $300 bucks.
12. Watch as TiVo fills up its puny hard drive with shows you didn't even ask it to record.
13. Cry when the DRM deletes shows for you that you haven't watched yet because they're expired.
14. Smash TiVo.
15. Insert Knoppmyth CD into your CD-ROM drive
16. Hit Ctrl-Alt-Delete
17. When the CD boots up, select option 2: Auto Install

Personally, I just started out with the MythTV box. I place value on my mental health as well as my time.

Re:Installing mythtv is VERY HARD!!!!

[quietlysubversive]

do you mean to tell me that after the Knoppmyth CD is installed, that my computer will be able to just slurp television programming out of the ether? ... no? oh ok then stfu until you reply with a COMPLETE list of MythTV installation steps, including all the steps involved going to Best Buy to buy the fucking tuner card.

Macrovision

[Kadin2048]

You used to be able to buy (or if you're up for some soldering, build) an outboard box that would filter the Macrovision signal off of a composite video stream -- basically an AGC in a box. Then you could run it into a regular modern VCR.

I guess those boxes are probably illegal now by the DMCA, although they were never actually marketed for the purposes of removing Macrovision per se, it was always "video clarification." I'm sure if you google you can probably find something on them.

Alternately you can try and get an old, pre-Macrovision VCR, of which there are many but they generally are mono and you'll have problems finding replacements for the consumable parts. Also, there are a lot of professional VCRs that you can find on eBay which have AGC circuits and are thus immune to Macrovision.

Also, at least the last time I read up on the subject, Macrovision only exists on the composite video circuits; an S-VHS recording on the S-Video in or a Beta SP machine (if you can afford one) on the component in.

Re:Macrovision

[stalky14]

"Also, at least the last time I read up on the subject, Macrovision only exists on the composite video circuits; an S-VHS recording on the S-Video in or a Beta SP machine (if you can afford one) on the component in."

Macrovision rides on the "Y" (luminance) signal used in both
S-Video and Component video. This is part of the reason Component
was chosen as the standard hi-res output for DVD players instead
of RGB. So it was intended to foil all analog recordings. CGMS
(Basically just an analog "don't record me" flag embedded in each video frame) came along later to foil digital recordings.

Oh, please...

[Quiet_Desperation]

I've seen better FUD in a Microsoft Linux memo.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo-WRONG!

[Alsee]

>I have yet to hear of any copyright statute in law that says a copyright holder can regulate your use of content after you've purchased it - or received it for free over the air.

I'm not sure what you mean by this

He's obviously referring to personal use, not commercial use or redistribution or public performance.

So no, in this context copyright law places no restrictions. You do not need the copyright holder's permission to make Fair Use.

US Code tells you what you may or may not do with copyrighted content without the owner's permission.

Your terminology is inaccurate.

By law the previous poster would be the OWNER of the copy of the content. By law the copyright holder is NOT the owner of the particular copy he has. The copyright holder owns the copyright, but he does not own individual copies that he has given away. If you buy a book, you are the owner of they book and you are the owner of that particular copy of that story. If you tape a TV show then you are the owner of that particular copy. You are still of course subject to copyright law, but you ARE the owner of that copy.

-

Re:TiVo is Trash

[jonfr]

Ohh...look, it got labeled flaimbait. I guess i did piss off some TiVo users. Oh, well.

Whatever

[lorcha]

You say it's hard to install MythTV:

I read accounts of installs, and I'd have to be on a steady diet of boilermakers and cheap crack to waste my time like that for something as trical as television.

I still say it's not hard. In fact, installing MythTV is trivial.

I've seen better FUD in a Microsoft Linux memo.

Myth is a hell of a lot to install than Windows. Have you ever tried to install Windows? I tried to install it once on a box that I built. I was going to make it a dual-booter, but I had to give up on Windows. Debian installed flawlessly, so to this day that machine is Linux-only.

And, yes, MythTV is easy to install.

Re:Whatever

[Quiet_Desperation]

Have you ever tried to install Windows?

Yes. Click. Click. Walk away. Come back. Click. Done.

And I fraking HATE Windows. You have me defending Windows! Blast you! ;-)

Re:Whatever

[lorcha]

I'm glad it worked for you. My experience was more like: Click. Click. BSOD. Curse. Reboot. Click. Click. BSOD. Call Microsoft. Have them tell me I didn't put my machine together properly. Tell them I did put it together properly. Back, forth, back, forth. Return Windows to store. Install Debian (I guess my machine was put together properly after all).

It's not like I was trying to install some nasty version of windows, either (ME or something). That was Windows 2000 on a dual-P3 box, nothing special.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo-WRONG!

[monkeydo]

You are the one who is confused. Personal use is not synonymous with fair use. Nor does personal use necessarily fall under any other exception to the copyright owner's exclusive rights. And my terminology is not innacurate, although it may have been imprecise. The "owner" refered to in the sentence you quoted is the copyright owner, and yes he can place restrictions on what you can do with even a legally owned copy of his copyrighted work.

Re:DRM is the issue, not TiVo-WRONG!

[Alsee]

Personal use is not synonymous with fair use.

They certainly aren't equal. Almost all personal use is Fair Use, but Fair Use is vastly broader than personal use.

Copyright is about granting a limited monopoly to commercially exploit the work, not about regulating USE after you have paid to buy a copy (or after the copyright holder has otherwise excercized his rights and choosen to give you a copy).

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