Mozilla Lightning Plans to Unify Mail & Calendar

Neil writes "The Mozilla Foundation has published an initial roadmap for 'Lightning', the project to integrate its calendar application Sunbird with its email application Thunderbird."

Comments

why don't they call it "Look Out"

[Anonymous Coward]

Get it? Outlook... Look Out? LOL

Re:why don't they call it "Look Out"

[Anarke_Incarnate]

My guess would be because Microsoft bought a company that created an Outlook plugin called LookOut. It was an indexer that let you search your emails, documents, etc for different topics and even went so far as to search links for references.
it works decently well when it isn't broken

New?

[Adelbert]

I thought a calendar was already available for Thunderbird as a plugin.

Anyway, I only really use web-based email. I have no need for an email client. Will Sunbird still have stand-alone releases?

Re:New?

[nine-times]

I thought a calendar was already available for Thunderbird as a plugin.

It is, and yet Thunderbird still isn't a suitable replacement for Outlook in corporate environments. From what I understand, Lightning aims to fix that.

Re:New?

[Ixne]

Cool... so now all my friends can schedule my time for me without asking, just like my boss does!

Re:New?

[Ikn]

I think they intend to do it that way, but they don't seem to be really focusing on Sunbird, at least on its own, right now. At least not intently, I haven't seen a major update for it in ages; it still works for what I need it to work for, so I don't mind. (yet)

Re:New?

[Jaysyn]

Are they adding a Journal as well? That & the calendar are the only reason Thunderbird isn't used by *everyone* here as opposed to just the people who can get by without them.

Jaysyn

Re:New?

[Austerity Empowers]

So the last EXCUSE as to why outlook was being mandated by IT was calendar. But I have this strong feeling that even if the implementation of the calendar feature is perfect, that IT will find another reason to stick with MS.

Re:New?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the big reason our IT department mandates it is the exchange server that manages everyone's calendar for them. That way, when I'm filling out a meeting request, I can look to see whether or not Joe Monkey has a meeting at 10 and whether or not Conference Room 2-1a is open.

Then again, even if Lightning can accomplish this task, you then have to get your IT department to justify switching to something different - and saying "well, it's open source!" more than likely isn't going to cut it with the majority of CIOs out there.

Re:New?

[nine-times]

It's probably not an "excuse". There aren't any real drop-in replacements for Outlook's functionality in Windows.

What's even worse is the situation on the Mac side. Microsoft doesn't even make a real OSX Exchange client. There's Outlook 2001, which only runs in OS9/Classic, and then there's Entourage, which is buggy, unstable, doesn't work properly, and generally stinks. Otherwise, you're stuck with webmail or a normal IMAP client.

In short, there is not a single OSX application that properly supports Exchange. Public folders are near useless. You can't share mailboxes, calendars, contacts, etc. Meeting requests don't even work properly.

On linux, at least you have Evolution. Evolution is a pretty good Outlook replacement, but the Windows port isn't done, and Novell hasn't announced any plans for an OSX version (as far as I know).

Re:New?

[AviLazar]

Well first, in general, companies don't want to have to get plug-ins...they want the stuff to work the way they want it to out of hte box. Outlook has a lot of rich features...it is a good product. I use tasks to manage projects, I use calander for appointments (and can be used for projects). Thunderbird needs the same features as Outlook to get a foothold. But then you get to other things...how will Thunderbird (in it's upgraded state) act with all of my corporate programs such as MS Web Outlook, Soloman, CRM, etc. How will it act with Active X (maybe /. crew don't like it, but corporate world does). These are all things to consider.

Re:New?

[ILikeRed]

And if Palm did not have their head up their arse, they would have dropped their shitty desktop app, ported Evolution to OS X themselves, open-sourced hotsync, and be selling a hell of a lot more pda's then they do now.

Re:New?

[da_matta]

Yes, but does it run on Lin^H^H^HExchange?

Re:New?

[bunratty]

The problem is that even Lightning will not be a drop-in replacement for Outlook. To use it, departments will have to at least configure their Exchange servers to recognize the IMAP protocol, and even with that change I don't think Outlook and Lightning scheduling will interoperate.

The only way Lightning can replace Outlook is for everyone in the entire department to completely switch from one to the other. Many IT people are going to see that as too risky, or at least too much work for the reward, and not make the switch.

If Lightning could interoperate with all Exchange servers and Outlook, by understanding the MAPI protocol and recognizing the Outlook calendar and scheduling formats, users could change over one-by-one without any IT help, and Lightning would get a lot more users.

Re:New?

[b0bby]

Well, I'm the IT department where I am, we use Outlook/Exchange, and I can assure you that if there had been a viable open source alternative which let us do shared calendars I'd have gone for it, and I'll be keeping an eye on Lightning. That said, the fact is that this is alpha software and it's not likely to approach decent usability for another year or two, so we'll be using Exchange for a while yet. And, honestly, it's not too bad; the mail and calendar work fine, the Web interface is pretty straightforward & lets you do what you need - my main gripe is the 16gb limit in the non-enterprise version.

Re:New?

[Penguinshit]

For groupware functionality, IBM does release an OSX version of Lotus Notes.

It works OK in our mostly-PC environment.

Re:New?

[dotpavan]

doesnt matter much.. with MS the IT dept. is assured yo have penty of work, like fixing things around for every user and with updates, you get more hours to work (this is good as long as your pay is hourly)..

with non-MS clients, its another day.. but you could consider the option of having to make them believe that these products are almost (if not the same) same workability..

Re:New?

[nine-times]

I think if ANYONE would port Evolution to OSX, you'd see it capture a decent share of whatever OSX machines are in corporate settings (for what that's worth). Entourage seriously stinks. Microsoft didn't even release Exchange connectivity until Apple started providing limited support through their "Mail".

Even then, Exchange support is pretty well crap. They've just cobbled together the IMAP support and LDAP support so that you can set them both up with one "Account settings" wizard. Gee, thanks. I still have to manually clear out my keychain every now and then to keep Entourage from locking my Windows account.

And don't get me started on Palm. So much potential, they even bought out Be, and they haven't done jack. Their new models bump up the RAM a little. Wowwie! I with they'd get a clue, toss the Hotsync method of transferring files, get rid of their Palm Desktop software (like you said), support OSX properly, and make a useful product for once. Open-source BeOS while you're at it. Instead it looks like they're just going to move to Windows Mobile and compete directly with Axims and iPaqs.

Re:New?

[LWATCDR]

One real issue is the lack of a good calander server to back it up.
Sunbird works pretty well but I have yet to see a good server for the back end. Yea you can do webdav and Apache but that is not a good server solution.
For my personal use I would love to see Yahoo and Google support ical. Maybe that will be the next project for google. gcal!

Re:New?

[garns]

The problem with Webbased email is if you are working offline, or on a slow connection. I would rather start a send-receive and go to dinner, come back and have all the information available. Also, there are security considerations, do you want your SMIME key stored on some server? In addition, I like having applications on my PC, I don't really like the idea of all my apps on the web.

Re:New?

[Anonymous Coward]

"There aren't any real drop-in replacements for Outlook's functionality in Windows."

Personally, I hope that they're not going to go down the OpenOffice route of "mimic everything in the Microsoft product, including all the bugs, annoyances, and bits of bad design"

I hope they'll try to create something better than Outlook. Something more easy to use (maybe less people will send me meeting requests in an obviously-wrong timezone if it's easier to use). Something with more features (like where's all the notification and subscription options that a calendar should have?)

And hopefully not have all the same bugs (like, why can't I move things to public folders on the web interface? Why can't you search more than one folder at once? Why does it fail to show certain parts of an email? How do you stop it displaying HTML, or defaulting to HTML).

Re:New?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do NOT drink the Kool-Aid...

Re:New?

[Earered]

Well, there is Aethera, based on KDE Kontact: http://www.thekompany.com/projects/aethera/ Works on Windows, KDE (Linux, BSD, etc..), and Mac OS X I do not like its look, but it has Outlook/Evolution features (not sure about the Exchange functionality, though it works with Kolab which is some kind of Exchange replacement).

Re:New?

[bofkentucky]

Why do you need httpd? Those ics files are going to be transfered over port 80 anyways, why bother rolling your own "calendar server" when apache + modDAV gets the job done right.

Re:New?

[justsomebody]

Evolution port for OSX is already in progress according to Novell
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2005 -March/msg00592.html
working with fink
http://primates.ximian.com/~aaron/doing/evo-osx.ht ml

While Tor Lillqvist and few others works on Windows port
http://evolution-win32.sourceforge.net/newsrss.php
screenshots
http://tml-blog.blogspot.com/2005/06/evolution-lim ps-along-on-windows-and.html

Re:New?

[docdoc]

I use parts of Kontact directly in OSX (under the OSX X11 server which runs seemlessly parallel to other apps). Just like on my linux box. Works great. Downside is you essentially have to build it with fink, which is not completely trivial, and takes a while.

Re:New?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds wild....what is next? A spreadsheet app and a word processor also...Office 2006...this would be so 90's......

Re:New?

[chris_mahan]

Sorry. Having Lotus Notes at work and suffering horribly from it, I say: Stay away from it.

I like IBM as much as the next guy, and Lotus Notes might have started with good intentions, but somethings wend terribly wrong along the way.

Re:New?

[nine-times]

I believe the port they're talking about isn't to get Evolution running natively (i.e. carbon or cocoa), but by using X11.

I don't want to disregard the efforts made to bring the port to OSX, but I'm afraid X11 won't cut it for most users (including mine).

Re:New?

[nine-times]

It's certainly interesting, but I wouldn't say it's even competitive with Thunderbird in terms of being an exchange client. It still seems not to support Exchange, but also its keyboard shortcuts are all wrong. Any OSX mail client where command-Q brings up a new e-mail is already out of the running for real use.

Re:New?

[Anonymous Coward]

actually novell's groupwise is a suitable replacement in the windows world for outlook. it has the same features and the ability to share your calander, send appointments, recieve and send mail, etc., minus of course the potential problems of outlook specific viruses. as for thunderbird, i've been trying it out for about three weeks now, and honestly, i think i prefer the gmail desktop notifier running in the background as opposed to the full blown email app.

Re:New?

[RustNeverSleeps]

Disclaimer: I don't use Entourage or Exchange at all, so this is not based on first hand experience. Supposedly Office 2004 Service Pack 2, which was just released within the last week, greatly improves Exchange support within Entourage. There are a lot of people saying that SP2 finally brings Entourage up to a point where it's useable with Exchange.

Re:New?

[riotous]

Just as long as I can sync this with my calendar on my ipaq rather than use outlook i'm sold

Re:New?

[Orion Blastar]

Yeah but:

#1 Mozilla Calendar is not ready for prime time. I've missed appointments for it because I set a reminder for 60 minutes, but for some reason Mozilla Calendar decided to remind me 15 minutes before the appointments instead. When I checked, it said 15 minutes, but my default on appointments was 60, and I set all my appointments for 60 minutes. There are also times when alarms were set to go off, but did not. Other times that alarms keep going off, even after they have been acknowledged.

#2 Mozilla Calendar Plugin needs to be in memory in order for appointments to go off, Thunderbird loaded by itself will not do this. Tools/Calendar needs to be accessed every single time that Thunderbird is loaded, or else alarms won't go off.

#3 No synch options for other devices. It does support iCalendar and vCalendar file formats and some mutant CSV format that Outlook and Yahoo Calendar refuse to read.

#4 It should integrate with the Thunderbird address book for birthdays, etc, and add them to the calendar.

#5 It is not stable yet, and often crashes on my system.

Re:New?

[gordgekko]

Thanks very much for the link to Aethera! I was looking for a replacement for Thunderbird that had PIM functionality (that worked, unlike the Sunbird plug-in). It's got some quirks but I think I just found exactly what I'm looking for.

Again, thank you!

Re:New?

[EntropyEngine]

I'm the exact opposite. I have zero need for web mail, I live out of my mail client...

Re:New?

[EntropyEngine]

Just a thought, but would / could some of the blame fall at Apples feet? I mean, Mail is a decent enough mail client, now. And I did read that Apple had been working on Exchange-enabling Mail but never got around to it...

Re:New?

[Penguinshit]

There are a lot of things infuriating about Notes (especially the 5.x and early 6.x revisions). I still don't like the fact that the configuration files are all binary databases (this drives me INSANE when I have to administer things). I can see having the mail/calendar/contacts stuff in database format... but why does one need to delete names.nsf (local address book) to solve a routing issue?

However, if you're looking for an Enterprise-class groupware product that includes support for Mac, your options are severely limited. I know of only one (Lotus) that can scale to a company of 250,000+ people.

It was just a suggestion. YMMV.

Re:New?

[Thundersnatch]

Exchange 2003 SP1 raises that limit to 75 GB for the Standard Edition. I think they finally realized the 16 GB store limit, which seemed huge for a SMB just a few years ago, is rediculous now.

That said, the exchange information store does use single-instance-storage and compression. So that 16 GB limit actually translates to something like 50+ GB when compared with an mbox or maildir style system. Still, that's only enough for ~25 people now that everyone expects a 2 GB mailbox.

Re:New?

[nine-times]

Mail does work with exchange servers... for mail. The issue is, what about calendars? What about contacts? what about public folders?

Some of this functionality can be handled by the Mail/Address Book/iCal combination, but even that is not sufficient as an "Outlook replacement".

Unless you've worked in one of these corporate environments, you might not quite understand the importance of Outlook. People send around meeting invitations all the time. Admin Assistants manage executives' calendars and contacts. There are businesses that are pretty much *run* through outlook, and the lack of an Outlook equivalent has been a big problem for putting OSX machines in these environments. Mail/AddressBook/iCal may be as good as Entourage X, but it still just doesn't cut it.

Someone here, though, mentioned Entourage 2004 SP2 (which just came out about a week ago). I tried that out, and it pretty much works. So much for loosening Microsoft's strangle-hold on corporate America.

Re:New?

[EntropyEngine]

Then I bow to your better knowledge. Although I have a number of clients who do indeed 'live' out of Microsoft Outlook, I've never had to fiddle & faff around with it, myself. I'm the creative dude .. they don't let me near that kind of stuff. I'm the edge developer, you know the sort...

Re:New?

[nine-times]

I've just been in and out of corporate IT helpdesks for... I guess around 7 years now. I've heard a lot of Microsoft-bashers write about how much Outlook stinks, and how all the features Outlook has over a normal mail client is bloat, that no one should need it. Typically these people aren't office workers. If they're in IT, they're freelancers, consultants, programmers, or they're in non-dilbertian environments.

Believe me, I don't like Microsoft either, but people really do use those "bloat" features in Outlook. Shared calendars/contacts, delegation, auto-archiving, GAL and distribution lists, e-mailing appointments and contacts, public folders, journals, tasks, notes, etc.

Re:New?

[EntropyEngine]

Believe me, I do not doubt you. In fact, such is my conviction that you're right about gettin' all organized 'n' stuff, I'm working on something for the roll-neck-wearing, beatnik types (yes, that includes me, I suppose) to help them get organized. So I suppose Outlook is something that interests me in a way...

Why not

[Adult film producer]

just integrate everything - thunderbird, firefox and sunbird into one big application ?

Re:Why not

[GungaDan]

Yes... and call it 'Mozilla...' ;-)

Re:Why not

[superyanthrax]

Or call it Seamonkey instead, b/c Mozilla Suite isn't supported by the foundation any more, and they only put out security updates.

http://www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/

Re:Why not

[Anonymous Coward]

Congratulations... you got the joke. Truly amazing; I wasn't sure you could do it.

Re:Why not

[Nimrangul]

Seamonkey is old, we need something new, hip, something that today's youth will really identify with and get behind... Like Hypnotoad, Phatphoque, or GreasyGoose.

Kids today like two random words being mashed together, right? Ubuntu has to be a sign.

Re:Why not

[Zemplar]

Only if they add an IRC client and HTML editor!

Well damn, why not integrate it with OpenOffice and OoMyGod.

Re:Why not

[supergiovane]

Obviously, the suite would not be complete without NVU, or some sort of Composer. I wonder why no one thought about it before. How could we name it? Let me think ... Mozilla Firefox ... Mozilla Thunderbird ... Mozilla Sunbird ... a unique app ... for mail ... internet ... uhm ... full integration ... i got it! Let's call it Windows !

Re:Why not

[roman_mir]

Honestly, who is the genius that comes up with these names? Seamonkey? I am not using anything that is called Seamonkey and if I was one of those, using it, I wouldn't tell anyone that I did. Firebird is bad enough.

Re:Why not

[Ixne]

The name Firebird at least has a respected background in American Indian legend. Seamonkeys have a respected background on the shelves of a toystore (and later, making their way down your toilet.)

Re:Why not

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, names like Hyperbagel, Flyingwombat or Technochocolate!

Re:Why not

[Anonymous Coward]

and later, making their way down your toilet

MURDERER!!!!

Re:Why not

[$RANDOMLUSER]

When did we drop the newsreader?

Re:Why not

[n0-0p]

There is actually an intelligent response to everyone making this same tired joke. The Mozilla Foundation retargeted development on seperate applications to simplify things for most users. With that done, one of the next major steps (2.0 timeframe) is to break all the shared functionality out into XulRunner (currently being actively developed).

Eventually all of the apps (FF, TB, SB) will use XulRunner but still be developed and distributed as seperate applications. This should provide the best of both worlds. It will have the tight integration and lower resource usage of the single suite, but without requiring everyone to deal with the headaches of one big monolithic application.

To anyone interested I'd really advise heading over to the Mozilla wiki and taking a look at what's going.

Re:Why not

[Alias777]

Suite?

Re:Why not

[mbbac]

They should obviously rename Seamonkey to be Firemonkey or Thundermonkey.

Re:Why not

[Zemplar]

That's a part of Thunderbird already

Re:Why not

[VJ42]

Firesomthing gives me a random browser name for every instance of firefox I have open. Currently I'm running Mooncougar

Re:Why not

[Flying Purple Wombat]

ahem... it's FlyingPurpleWombat, thank-yew-very-much!

Re:Why not

[rainman_bc]

And the newsreader in thunderbird is crap. I can't seem to be able to group by thread. Even IMO OE is better... Well at least TB shows yEnc images... Better for pr0n :)

Re:Why not

[Zemplar]

"... Better for pr0n :)"

Until you try to combine messages!

Re:Why not

[phoenix_rizzen]

And another project takes a page out of the KDE development book. :) This is exactly the process taken by the Kontact project. A container application that integrates multiple separate applications into a cohesive whole. You can run the individual apps (KMail, KAddressbook, KNotes, Akregator, Todo, Journal, KNode, etc) as separate applications, or you can run Kontact which provides a nice sidebar with links to each component, and gives you a single window for everything.

Best of both worlds: those that want individual apps can use them as such, and those that like the "everything under the sun integrated together" can use it as such.

Re:Why not

[shokk]

Mozilla Foundation minutes
9/25/2005

12:01pm
Unfortunately the name "clownpenis" was taken, so we had to go with SeaMonkey. Not a lot of good names out there. Can you believe Phil wanted to go with WebRazer and Mary wanted us to use Daphodill? Bunch of amateurs.

3:37pm
Had a good laugh at the bug reports, like this one for making Slashdot.org format properly. Whew, fortunately the guys running the web site are working around our bug and doing the work for us. Check!

Re:Why not

[Anonymous Coward]

Seamonkey was the name of the Mozilla web browser before it hit 1.0.

It has a long history.

Fuck, you already use something called Mozilla.

Re:Why not

[Tom-the-Great]

or seafox/seabird.

Re:Why not

[ozbird]

Seamonkey fits the element-animal naming scheme:
Fire: Firefox
Air: Thunderbird
Water: Seamonkey
Earth: ??

Re:Why not

[CapnGrunge]

Earth: Groundhog

Re:Why not

[Anonymous Coward]

Earth: Landshark

Re:Why not

[Mad Marlin]

Earth: DungBeetle (the intercaps makes it corporate-friendly!)

Critical Bug Fix... or Feature?

[stlhawkeye]

...will make the combined application more attractive to corporate users, although they're not specifically targeting Microsoft Outlook.

...will include fixes for the most important bugs, such as those that cause the loss of data.

Wait... now come on, who ELSE are they targetting? Gotta be MS Outlook users. Nobody uses Oracle Corporate Time. If they want to win over MS users they ought to leave bugs in the software that cause catastrophic data loss. It's what MS users are used to.

Re:Critical Bug Fix... or Feature?

[Richy_T]

Absolutely. Catastrophic data loss is the only thing that keeps our users from filling up their hard-drives.

Re:Critical Bug Fix... or Feature?

[GungaDan]

outlook/exchange or notes/domino. I for one welcome our new Notes-quashing calendaring overlords. Stupid Notes.

Re:Critical Bug Fix... or Feature?

[XunilOS]

Nobody uses Oracle Corporate Time.

Really? My company does. A certain rather large, high-profile search engine company with a numerically-derived name uses it. I'm willing to bet you could find quite a list of customers on Oracle's pages.

Re:Critical Bug Fix... or Feature?

[syntap]

Wait... now come on, who ELSE are they targetting? Gotta be MS Outlook users.

I'd say why waste effort then. Move that effort into the Evolution port to win32 (if it exists, I think it does) and concentrate on how to get a pst file into Evolution easily. That's how you'll get Outlook users to move.

Re:Critical Bug Fix... or Feature?

[xgamer04]

Um, if the Mozilla crew can put together a mail + calendar app that has the usability of Firefox, I'd switch to it. I've never used Outlook, but I do want to ditch my crappy Palm Desktop software.

Re:Critical Bug Fix... or Feature?

[croddy]

you work for A9? cool!!

Re:Critical Bug Fix... or Feature?

[ucahg]

Well, Google is also a numerically-derived name, so he didn't actually help clarify much ;)

Re:Critical Bug Fix... or Feature?

[Kjella]

Catastrophic data loss is the only thing that keeps our users from filling up their hard-drives.

Well, if they get too reliable you'll just have to hire a BOFH.

Re:Critical Bug Fix... or Feature?

[zerocool^]

The problem becomes that everyone I know who uses Outlook specifically for the calendar in a corporate sense uses it because it's a *shared* calendar. We use it where I work, and it works really well for what we do (schedule jobs for techs).

In order to take away the corporate calendar market from outlook, they'll need to somehow make it centralized; and then you're just talking evolution.

~will

Re:Critical Bug Fix... or Feature?

[Sethb]

We use Oracle Calendar (formerly Steltor CorporateTime, formerly CS&T, formerly Netscape Calendar) at the University I work for. I'd love to see it integrated with Thunderbird, which is our e-mail client of choice, since it's easy to support on all platforms.

Re:Critical Bug Fix... or Feature?

[PhilipPeake]

It isn't Outlook that needs to be targetted, its the Exchange server sitting behind it. Evolution is no real help if you still have to have a Windows box running Exchange sitting in the data center - and thats exactly what you need if you want fully functional and integrated mail/calendaring/directory suitable for enterprise use.

Re:Critical Bug Fix... or Feature?

[PhilipPeake]

Evolution is not an answer.

What needs to be targetted is not Outlook, but Exchange. Having an Outlook copy/rip-off (Evolution) is useless for real enterprise use without the functionality provided by Exchange, which means integrated/shared calendar/email/directory, and to get that you have to be running a Windows box or two (or twenty) loaded with Exchange in your data center.

Microsoft (IMHO) think Evolution is wonderful. It saves them having to port Outlook to Linux, but still requires the high profit-margin, locke-in, proprietary servers (Evolution) in the background. Why do you think they havn't been screaming "IP Infringement!" about Evolution?

This will be a different animal. It will run on top of standard protocol (IMAP, HTTP/CalDAV) and will cut Windows and Exchange right out of the picture. It will succeed where others - notably Sun, have failed -- Sun has a 100% solid mail server, a (now) solid calendar server, and a (still somewhat funky) address book server, but fails to capture real enterprise customers because they absolutely refuse to build an integrated desktop client.

Microsoft will NOT like this. They can see the writing on the wall for the Office suite, and this is liable to hit their only other really profitable hook into the commercial data center - Exchange.

Re:Critical Bug Fix... or Feature?

[avdp]

I don't know about that, MS-Office (which Outlook is part of) is one of the major cash cow for Microsoft, if not the biggest. I wouldn't be so sure that MS would be willing to sacrifice Outlook as long as they get to keep Exchange. I think the other way around may be more likely.

Re:Critical Bug Fix... or Feature?

[pmike_bauer]

See? You really do only need 640K.

Re:Critical Bug Fix... or Feature?

[Jim Hall]

Wait... now come on, who ELSE are they targetting? Gotta be MS Outlook users. Nobody uses Oracle Corporate Time.

Actually, we use Oracle Corporate Time, and we like it a lot. While it's not 100% ideal (and I doubt anything really could be) it does support all the major platforms in use here: Windows, Linux, and Mac. The web client is also very nice, and I actually prefer it over the (Motif) native Linux client.

Meeting announcements/invites are sent via email, which makes it a perfect fit for integration with an email package. That said, I would love to integrate my (Thunderbird) email and (Oracle CT) calendaring into one application!

Be careful where you point that "nobody".

Re:Critical Bug Fix... or Feature?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget that Sun has an "Outlook Connector" that is designed to let you deploy Outlook on the desktop, but use JES (Java Enterprise System) as your backend. On the JES user mailing list the developers have stated they want to support everything having Exchange as your backend does.

They also have a connector for Evolution that does the same thing.

Now, having said that, the JES users are almost ALLWAYS complaining the lack of a NON-MS "fat client" and wish Sun would devoke a few programmers to the Mozilla Foundation.

Re:Critical Bug Fix... or Feature?

[XunilOS]

No, I don't work for Google or A9. I said my company, AS WELL AS a company with a numerically-derived name...

Re:Critical Bug Fix... or Feature?

[xgamer04]

Well, as the shift of commercial software seems to be shifting more towards "services" and things you connect to via browser or app, MS may be a bit touchy over losing something like Exchange. I realize that their current strategy is still a complete Windows lock-in (Client, apps, server) but if and when they change (my bet is that it'll happen eventually), their money will be made more on things like Exchange.

Re:Critical Bug Fix... or Feature?

[JulesLt]

Can't wait. Only hope that once they have an equivalent client to Outlook, we start getting similar support for Hula. In the reverse of the normal 'servers then desktop' march of OS, I can see this one going the other way - first need to replace Outlook then can use an alternative server.

Email and calandering.....

[Roskolnikov]

this is good news but what really should happen first is a suitable replacement for the M$oft backend, opening myself to suggestions here but until you
replace the server we are all at the mercy of Microsoft and their usual patch it to break it mentality.

Re:Email and calandering.....

[nine-times]

...until you replace the server we are all at the mercy of Microsoft and their usual patch it to break it mentality.

The "patch it to break it" could just as easily be applied to the client end. The fact is, the client end is extremely important-- large businesses are slower in migrating servers to new software than to experiment with client-side solutions. Outlook and Exchange reenforce each other. You can't use all of Outlook's features with Exchange, and Outlook doesn't work well with anything else.

It'd be easier to make a new server-end system if you already have a client in place which will connect to it.

Re:Email and calandering.....

[BumpyCarrot]

I think the "patch it to break it" was more on the lines of "patch our closed-source server to break the usability of the open source client".

Re:Email and calandering.....

[nine-times]

What about "patch our closed-source clients to break the usability of the open-source server"? In some ways, server software will be easier. You don't necessarily have to give it a nice GUI, strong cross-platform support, it doesn't have to look pretty. However, a completely functional groupware server isn't going to do you much good displacing Exchange until you have a strong, pretty, cross-platform client that will connect to it.

Re:Email and calandering.....

[heybo]

Novell Groupwise. It beats Exchange hands down. For running on a Windows server Merak mail is good.

Thank god

[DoorFrame]

It's about time. Now all they've got to do is make a version of the mail program for my palm pilot/windows mobile device and I can stop using Outlook.

Re:Thank god

[Anonymous Coward]

Opera doesn't have email for mobile devices yet? I checked their site but it didn't say one way or the other that I could find quickly.

Re:Thank god

[Mike Kelly]

Yeah, I'm so damn sick of the "An application wants to access your email addresses, how long do you want to let it?" (paraphrased, of course) message that appears whenever I HotSync. That was M$'s idea of a "security update" that I installed and cannot remove.

Re:Thank god

[Achromatic1978]

It's so annoying that someone actually wrote an application to 'autoclick the okay' button for windows with the same title as that damned thing. Should be able to Google it.

going to a new Mozilla suite?

[Anonymous Coward]

Coming in 2006: The new Mozilla suite (TM). With Firefox browser, and new calendar featured Thunderbird.

Modular

[Helios1182]

I think modularity is the way to go. Kontact in KDE does it right. Each app (address, email, calendar) are self contained apps that can be run individualy, but Kontact ties them all together ala Outlook/Evolution if you want to use it that way.

Re:Modular

[GenKreton]

I have to agree with the parent, KDE does do it all very very well.

With that said the legions of us who wish to keep their machine gtk2 only, and the other windows guys out there still need a viable alternative.

I run thunderbird and firefox with the calendar integrated. There also is (was?) the separate application, Sunbird by mozilla; I am not sure what happened to it to be honest.

Lightning is very buggy in firefox and thunderbird for me including several segmentation fault errors I can raise consistently as well as just sheer rendering issues that make features unusable.

I wonder if the built-in calendars in FF and Thunderbird integrate nicely... I can't test them really because they are unusable on my FF 1.0.7 and TB 1.0.6...

Won't this just put us back at where the Mozilla Suite was, minus the irc program? Heh, funny how things go...

Re:Modular

[wtmcgee]

Same with the Apple mail/ical/address book suite on the Mac. I think keeping them seperate is the way to go, as it gives the user the choice to use what they want.

Re:Modular

[oliverthered]

Kontact's pretty good, but it doesn't have the ability to securely share data, which is one of the main Exchange features I use when Exchange is the mail server.

I don't know if KGroupware fixes this problem or not.

Re:Modular

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is, while Thunderbird is pretty good, Sunbird is horrible compared to something like iCal, it's missing so many features it's an embarrassment. I'm hoping that with this project that more attention is paid to Sunbird, after they've made it worthwhile then they should split them up.

Re:Modular

[ToddFFW]

ever heard of ssh, webdavs://, https:/// pop3s, or imaps?

Re:Modular

[TheRaven64]

Apple's Address Book is a really good example. The Address Book framework back-end is integrated into the system[1]. The Address Book app, the Address Book dashboard widget, and a number of third party address book apps are all wrappers around this. This is hugely useful, since the data is accessible from anywhere, even if you decide never to use Address Book.app.

[1] No trolls, it doesn't run in kernel-space. It is, however, available to all app developers.

Re:Modular

[Helios1182]

I know is supports pgp, but other than that I'm not sure. I was just thinking along design terms. I just like being able to use Kmail in or without Kontact. I don't have any secure data to share ala exchange, so I've never bothered to look for those features.

Re:Modular

[oliverthered]

pop3s and imaps don't have enough granularity on permissions (does pop3 even support directories?)
ssh, well yeh but try tellying molly on the from desk she has to ssh in to find out if I've received the foo files from bob.

I looked at webdav a long time ago, and it didn't seem to be that great, does it intergrate with kontact?

Re:Modular

[oliverthered]

I would like to take the intergration of kontact to another level, intergrated accross users, like sharing data in exchange (or even writing Outlook forms and macros to streamline the management of the whole business)

Re:Modular

[ToddFFW]

I use Kontact with imaps for my mail, OpenLDAP with SSL encryption for my contacts, and webdavs:// (or fish:// ssh kioslave) for my calendar .ics file. Basically kontact will let you store your ics file in anything supported by kde. I'm using ssh now with fish:// but webdavs:// works just as well, as long as you have apache configured on the server side correctly (took me a bit to get it right)

Re:Modular

[oliverthered]

Ah, I'll look at webdav, I tried to share my TODO list just using group permissions on the fs but Kontact insists on writing a new file with the current users permissions.

Just storing the calender doesn't give the kind of fine grained ACL based permissions I get with exchange though.

Re:Modular

[lhouk281]

I'm glad to know that I'm not the only person who feels that way. For example, I use Firefox to browse the Internet, but I love the Mozilla address book. No other rolodex program I've tried works as well for me. So, the only reason I keep Mozilla on my hard disk is so I can do "mozilla --addressbook". Lame.

Re:Modular

[wtmcgee]

I also think that is great. I think they have to be careful to not cross that line and integrate it too much into the system, but as it stands, it's wonderful to have address book functionality in iChat or Adium (putting your contacts' IM address in address book will have their 'real' name show up in your chat app, if you so choose), amongst other things. Any app can take advantage of the info put in there, and that's a good thing (TM).

Re:Modular

[ToddFFW]

true. i think Exchange is very functional and feature rich... But if I can serve MY needs with Open Source solutions, I do. I only addressed your comment about a lack of security :)

Re:Modular

[stefanlasiewski]

This project is trying to be modular.

Lightning is a Thunderbird extension to tightly integrate Calendaring functionality into Thunderbird -- this includes some GUI enhancements.

They would remain separate products, but you can integrate them with the Lightning extension.

Re:Modular

[CoughDropAddict]

Now if only Mozilla Thunderbird used the address book as well...

Re:Modular

[Helios1182]

I think the APIs are available, so they could. Then again it would stray significantly for the implementation for any other platform.

Re:Modular

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry to interrupt all the KDE/Apple blowjobs, but Windows did all of this about 5 years before the competition.

why change

[pyros]

Why would they change from the current model? It's really nice having the option to use it standalone, as a Thunderbird dropin, or as a Firebird dropin. Forcing me to go through Thunderbird would be really irritating.

Re:why change

[M00NIE]

My gawd! WHY?! How about not having to launch the calendar separately, synching to palm pilots or other devices (a seriously lacking capability currently in sunbird that I miss), the fact that users want to have e-mail and calendar in all one place.... the list goes on and on. I don't like Outlook, but I have to admit, from a user's world, it works, it does all they expect and it does it seemingly without any crazy setup and tweaking. Granted, it breaks, it's insecure and a whole host of other things. But hey, that's what the geeks are here for - to make that stuff ok. Users just want to "use".

I mean really, if you don't like that kind of format, don't use it. Noone is forcing you to use this application anymore than anyone is forcing you to use Eudora.

Re:why change

[pyros]

We already have Sunbird for standalone, and an xpi to add to Firefox and an xpi to add to Thunderbird. So everyone can have it their way. I want to keep it this way. I personally prefer the Firefox plugin, since I use gmail's web interface for all my mail, so I get all three in one, but with a lighter footprint than using mozilla/seamonkey. ;)

Let me see here..

[Almond Paste]

Sunbird + Thunderbird = Hummingbird!

Re:Let me see here..

[Anonymous Coward]

nah Rainbird or Stormbird for me ;)

Re:Let me see here..

[Anonymous Coward]

We don't need another Phoenix, Firebird, Firefox issue.

plugins

[hatch815]

keep it modular so you dont have to tinker with the whole to modify a part will stimulate diverse and adaptable solutions .. its like the google/yahoo API theory .. "show us what else we should/could be doing"

Absolutely!

[Anonymous Coward]

ThunderCooperFalconBird?

Re:Absolutely!

[tha_mink]

ThunderCooperFalconBird?

Dude, get your shitty quote right... it's ThunderCougarFalconBird

Re:Absolutely!

[Anonymous Coward]

VitaMeataVegamin?

"Integration"

[oGMo]

The roadmap says:

Lightning 0.2

• Better Thunderbird integration
  • email<->task linkage
  • IMIP support
• Improved CalDAV support

My first thought at seeing the article was "integration? I thought the point was to separate them", but this seems to mean "integrate" like "let's make them talk better".

The article on the other hand seems to misunderstand and say "the combined application" and imply they're building one big Thunderbird/Sunbird conglomerate. I don't think this is the case, reading the roadmap. Anyone have more data on this?

Re:"Integration"

[STFS]

The article on the other hand seems to misunderstand and say "the combined application" and imply they're building one big Thunderbird/Sunbird conglomerate. I don't think this is the case, reading the roadmap. Anyone have more data on this?

As I understand it, Lightning is a plugin for Thunderbird that will provide Sunbirt capability from within the mail application.

Re:"Integration"

[Anonymous Coward]

As I understand it, Lightning *will* tightly integrate a calendar app into Thunderbird. The Calendar plugin already exists, but it's pretty standalone. Lightning will be more built in to the Thunderbird UI, allow scheduling via email, etc.

Re:"Integration"

[Anonymous Coward]

You are both right except that the calendar plugin will be replaced by Lightning,.e.g. if you use the latest trunk build of thunderbird, the only calendar plugin option you have is lightning, the older calendar plugin might not be an option by version 2.0

Dogfood?

[TheLoneIguana]

Calendar:Lightning:0.1
From MozillaWiki

This is the current list of things to do for 0.1, in priority order:

        * place all precautionary / compatibility notices
        * blog about nightlies; link to from wiki
        * fix all major dataloss bugs
        * figure out versioning / compatibility / build plan
        * fix dogfood bugs
        * forums, calendar blog post about nightlies
        * announce to mozillazine
        * fix all known dataloss bugs
        * fix remaining blockers
        * release 0.1rc1

What exactly is a "dogfood bug," in this context?

Re:Dogfood?

[Anonymous Coward]

"dogfood bugs" are usability issues, according to:
http://www.mozilla.org/editor/dogfood.html

Re:Dogfood?

[SneakyNinja]

I believe it's from the term 'eating their own dogfood' which means using the tool you're developing. ie, during the build of NT, Dave Cutler made the developers use the beta builds of NT, and it was termed 'eating their own dogfood'.

This probably means the devs are using the product and mean to fix the bugs they've logged.

Re:Dogfood?

[eheldreth]

Unless I'm mistaken "Dogfood Bugs" are white, long, and kind of squirmy. The vet used a long metal rod to check my dog for them(not vary pleasant I assume). Maybee Mozilla.org should take thier pet lizard to see a vet if he's got "Dogfood bugs".

Re:Dogfood?

[pyros]

What exactly is a "dogfood bug," in this context?

Any bug that prevents them from using the project internally as their official corporate calendar app.

Re:Dogfood?

[Rodness]

from http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/D/dogfood.htm l :

dogfood: n.

        [Microsoft, Netscape] Interim software used internally for testing. "To eat one's own dogfood" (from which the slang noun derives) means to use the software one is developing, as part of one's everyday development environment (the phrase is used outside Microsoft and Netscape). The practice is normal in the Linux community and elsewhere, but the term 'dogfood' is seldom used as open-source betas tend to be quite tasty and nourishing. The idea is that developers who are using their own software will quickly learn what's missing or broken. Dogfood is typically not even of beta quality.

Re:Dogfood?

[novus ordo]

dogfood: n
Interim software used internally for testing. "To eat one's own dogfood" (from which the slang noun derives) means to use the software one is developing, as part of one's everyday development environment (the phrase is used outside Microsoft and Netscape). The practice is normal in the Linux community and elsewhere, but the term 'dogfood' is seldom used as open-source betas tend to be quite tasty and nourishing. The idea is that developers who are using their own software will quickly learn what's missing or broken. Dogfood is typically not even of beta quality.

Re:Dogfood?

[gedhrel]

"usability" only in a general layman's sense. The term comes from "eating your own dogfood", that is, using the app internally in anger.

Re:Dogfood?

[Tim C]

Indeed. From "eat(ing) your own dogfood", ie using your own products inhouse.

Why?

[pmike_bauer]

Why is an integrated calendar and communications product a "good thing".
Why not include a file manager and image editor while we're at it?

Re:Why?

[NanoGator]

"Why is an integrated calendar and communications product a "good thing"."

Um... because communications often lead to appointments.

"Why not include a file manager and image editor while we're at it?"

See previous point.

Re:Why?

[HD Webdev]

Why is an integrated calendar and communications product a "good thing".

Perhaps I may want to use communications to let people know about my calendar and changes in it?

This is 2005 after all. For example, I shouldn't have to negotiate a time & place for a meeting with every single person who should be present by telephone. For 10 people, that could easily take a lot of time not to mention the multiple calls to each person.

Instead, I can schedule it for the most convenient time (least impact on their schedules).

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

And equally, because it's handy to have appointments automatically generate communications, e.g., to invite people to a meeting, log their reply, confirm with everyone that the meeting will go ahead once you've had all the replies back, and then issue a reminder automatically n minutes before the start time.

The fact that most of the guys here can do this sort of stuff (using Outlook/Exchange) and I can't (using TBird) means I can't actually book any of the company rooms for meetings, and other equally daft things. This isn't particularly a problem, and they humour me and my kind because we've been using alternatives since before Outlook became the office standard, but it would be useful to have the same functionality as everyone else, rather than just using TBird to escape the fatal data loss bugs in MS products that caused me to switch in the first place.

Re:Why?

[mshiltonj]

Why not include a file manager and image editor while we're at it?

Good point. I'll add it to the list. Thanks.

Re:Why?

[pmike_bauer]

If I want to be notified of an appointment, my electronic calendar should handle this. There is no need to clutter my inbox (see OS X iCal).

Re:Why?

[adrianmonk]

"Why is an integrated calendar and communications product a "good thing"."

Um... because communications often lead to appointments.

I'm a programmer. In my case, communications often lead to my writing new code (to fix a bug or to add features). So, shouldn't my e-mail program and my compiler be integrated?

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Why not include a file manager and image editor while we're at it?"

Because then it would be an emacs replacement, rather than an outlook replacement...

Re:Why?

[NanoGator]

"I'm a programmer. In my case, communications often lead to my writing new code (to fix a bug or to add features). So, shouldn't my e-mail program and my compiler be integrated?"

*Sigh* Only an engineer would ask this question. It's amazing evolution hasn't wiped us out.

Re:Why?

[mingot]

No, but a task manager would be a good canidate.

Emulating Outlook 2003?

[vertinox]

The one question you would have to ask would it support an ecxhange server?

If not... Can they pull of "Exchange-like" behavior with calenders and meetings on a pop server?

Re:Emulating Outlook 2003?

[cloudmaster]

Not on POP. POP is the friggin' devil (and doesn't lend itself to anything but downloading - not uploading). IMAP, probably.

Re:Emulating Outlook 2003?

[CdBee]

I get the impression that the Lightning extension is one step of many which will enable Thunderbird to be built up into a heavyweight groupware client for those who need it.

(Add redundant comment, as already stated above - like KDE Kontact which uses elements of different KDE apps to build a complete application, Mozilla Lightning will use elements of Thunderbird and Sunbird/Moz.Calendar to make an email-and-scheduling app)

Obviously the nature of POP (Post Office Protocol - mail stays on server waiting to be collected) would preclude this but IMAP mail is a replication-based system where the client caches a copy of a mailbox permanently stored on a server, and could be a basis for exchange-like usage when combined with CalDAV calendar sharing as being developed for Sunbird/Lightning

IMAP mail is supported as a connection technology on Microsoft Exchange, although obviously most enterprises moving to TB/Lightning will probably also be moving mail server software..

Re:Emulating Outlook 2003?

[Kunta Kinte]

The one question you would have to ask would it support an ecxhange server?

No. Exchange uses calendaring uses RPC/MAPI or WebDAV.

If not... Can they pull of "Exchange-like" behavior with calenders and meetings on a pop server?

No. They use CalDAV for calendar sharing.

Re:Emulating Outlook 2003?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I think you have to bear in mind that Sunbird is a very immature product itself, and we're talking about 0.1 versions here. The dev team for Sunbird, unfortunately, seem to be almost non-existent, and have chosen to prioritise things like CalDAV. They're not, according to the last roadmap I looked at (a few weeks ago now, so check yourself if it matters to you) giving any particular time to Exchange compatibility at all. Which is a shame, because I bet the latter would be useful to far more people in practice.

Re:Emulating Outlook 2003?

[JoshDanziger]

I've often wondered; why can't a regular IMAP store be used to store calendar information? task information? Then, someone can write a client that interprets individual headers/messages as mail/task items.

Granted, it doesn't give you shared calendars and all that jazz, but we don't have that now anyway. And for people like me, who just want to be able to get to their calendar and mail from different locations, it seems like an optimal solution.

Now will TB have a usable contacts list?

[denis-The-menace]

I've asked for it before:
-Phone fields that auto-formats to (###) ###-#### or whatever the user needs for his region.
-ability to print multiple contacts per page(I'm talking about 10 per page in 4 columns, not 1 or 2 per page)

And yes I'm a OLK user but one that would love to migrate. I cringe everytime I launch it thinking it will get a poison-pill email.

Re:Now will TB have a usable contacts list?

[Nohea]

-Phone fields that auto-formats to (###) ###-#### or whatever the user needs for his region.

This doesn't make sense to me, on a practical basis. Just because you are in a region, doesn't mean the other person is in the same region, and their phone# is formatted the same way.

And then if the format is based on the contact's region, then you have to set that on every contact. It just seems like a feature request that sounds good until it is created.

Re:Now will TB have a usable contacts list?

[ciroknight]

-Phone fields that auto-formats to (###) ###-#### or whatever the user needs for his region.
-ability to print multiple contacts per page(I'm talking about 10 per page in 4 columns, not 1 or 2 per page)

1) Sure, why not. But then again, you might want to make this a regional setting (adaptable if you are overseas, etc).
2) Why not? It'd be neat to have a stylesheet layout engine for contacts so you could print business cards and carry them around in your wallet, as well as having them electronically in your PDA, etc. I don't really see any reason this couldn't be done (and frankly, hasn't been done).

Re:Now will TB have a usable contacts list?

[denis-The-menace]

In my little centrist-world called North america this would work.
For somebody with many out-of-country contacts this, however, could be a pain.
The solution is to have TB or Lightning look at the country field in the contact and "know" what format that country uses.

Right now olk just looks up the settings in the computer and *assumes* that most/all contacts will be in the same region.

Thunderbird

[Richy_T]

The biggest show-stopper for Thunderbird for me was that people would send me little vcs notifications from Outlook and they would just sit in my mozilla inbox as weird looking files rather than get inserted into the calendar. You could import them manually but it was a hassle. I went searching for a solutions but the mozilla people would point their fingers at the thunderbird and the thunderbird people would point their fingers at mozilla and I don't have time to do the job myself so when I was asked if there was an alternative to Outlook... (Calendering is one of the supreme needs of the suits).

An integration will be most welcome. Though too late to make any big difference here, I still use Mozilla myself and would be happy not to have to decode VCS files in my head.

Rich

Re:Thunderbird

[gseidman]

I am currently in an MS-centric work environment and I experienced the same problem. I found it infuriating to receive these meeting invitations and not even have the attachment show up as an attachment I could save. What I wound up doing was writing a dead simple awk script to extract the VCS attachment. It's still a multistep process:

1. in Thunderbird, save email somewhere handy as $email
2. in a shell (cygwin, on Windows), run extract_ics.awk $email > $ical
3. in Sunbird/calendar extension, import $ical and accept the prompts
4. remove $email and $ical

At least it's possible. Here's the awk script:

#!/usr/bin/awk -f

BEGIN { found = 0; }

found == 2 && $0 == "" { exit; }

found == 2

found == 1 && $0 == "" { found = 2; }

found == 0 && $0 ~ /^Content-Type: text\/calendar;/ { found = 1; }

To avoid confussion...

[AcidArrow]

The slashdot story is a little misleading... As you can see on this wiki here Lightning is an extension for thunderbird but very tightly integrated.

And I quote:

"Lightning" is simply a project code name to keep from having to type or say "Thunderbird extension for tightly-integrated calendar functionality" all the time.

Actually, just read the faq I linked...

dogfood = essential stuff needed to use it yoursel

[Anonymous Coward]

f

to eat your own dogfood in this context. to make the app good for using it yourself rather than relying on 3rd party and other apps....

so that the developers who write the software and other contributors can start using lightning and other mozilla apps on a daily base so that the app starts to get user base and a certain momentum to drive it further into the market...

cheers

Open Source finally comes of age

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this the first Open Source vaporware?

Duke Nukem Forever II will be out before a usable Sunbird, let alone Lightning :(

It's too bad, too. I love Firefox & Thunderbird. I really wanted to like their calendar extension/app.

Dammit.

[fahrvergnugen]

Just when I thought we'd finally standardized on a naming convention that nobody could easily mis-spell, now I'm going to have to put up with a hojillion references to "lightening."

Re:Dammit.

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean "lighting."

Article title misleading

[augustz]

Lightning is the working project name for an extension to tightly integrate calendar functionality (scheduling, tasks, etc.) into Thunderbird.

Thunderbird is doing what it always does. Keep a lightweight email client around, but for those who want/need calander, they can install an extension to give it to them. A lot of good ideas show up in this.

Futher, this is not a Mozilla Foundation annoucement.

Q. Will this be Mozilla Lightning(TM)? Is this an official Mozilla Foundation product?
A. "Lightning" is simply a project code name to keep from having to type or say "Thunderbird extension for tightly-integrated calendar functionality" all the time. The Mozilla Foundation has not yet announced any plans to add Lightning to its set of supported products under any name; indeed, such an announcement would be premature, as the exact composition of Lightning is still very much under discussion.

A good wiki page on it all is here: http://wiki.mozilla.org/Calendar:Lightning

reminder function, please!

[pointbeing]

I pitched Outlook for Thunderbird with the Calendar plugin and was happy it migrated all my data from Outlook 2k3 into something a little more standard.

The only thing I've really missed is a reminder feature for the calendar - I still have to fire up Outlook about once a week to get reminders but I don't use it for email anymore.

Don't know if Sunbird incorporates a reminder feature and couldn't find anything about it on mozilla.org, but I sure hope so. Developers, if you haven't got a reminder feature yet I could really use one ;-)

Re:reminder function, please!

[cyrl]

Yes, Sunbird is a standalone calendaring application and has "alarms" instead of "reminders" but they do exactly the same thing. I also switched from Outlook to Thunderbird about a year ago, and the only problem I had was getting the HTML eMail exported from Outlook. It would always re-import as plain text, with all the HTML code as text.

Re:reminder function, please!

[magus_melchior]

There is an "Alarm" function in the Event dialog in Sunbird. You can set it to go off a certain amount of time before the event starts or ends, and even set it to toss an email when tripped.

Granted, you need to have Sunbird running during the time period of the event, and I don't think they have this for mobile devices yet....

Ford and Pontiac?

[Null537]

Sunbird and Thunderbird coming together? Did somebody run a red light?

Re:Ford and Pontiac?

[Sketch]

> Sunbird and Thunderbird coming together? Did somebody run a red light?

At least Firebird wasn't involved...

roadmap items I would like to see

[Anonymous Coward]

* Cut the memory footprint of the browser to 1/3 it's current size
* Fix random seg faults of the browser -- catch signal 11 and just kill that tab if no real programmers can be found to fix the problem(s)
* Schedule a viscious back-alley beating for the people responsible for the above

Calendar Integration a Good Idea

[geoffrobinson]

In my experience in the business world, Outlook is kept around for its calendar and its integration with other apps. It's not that email in and of itself has to be handled by Outlook.

Re:Calendar Integration a Good Idea

[pl1ght]

I agree completely with this. So many businesses use Exchange, which conveniently(or detrimentally) combines calendar/email/meetings/IM/etc etc that it makes it hard(impossible) to consider any other open source app. None of them are completely operable in combination with Exchange. Sure i can set evolution etc to imap and other, but it wont give me all the features i need for our employees. Im not against using another app one bit. Its just not possible without changing the fundamental core of our companys communication infrastructure.

That's not the answer.

[Elad Alon]

We shouldn't bend down for the sake of the idiots. Let them stand on their tips of their toes.

Re:That's not the answer.

[Elad Alon]

fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck THE tips of their toes. Why this post, of all posts? Note to modders - this isn't fucking funny! I don't want no +funny on this one! Wait, who am I kidding? Bring them on. It's only when other people get modded up for this kind of sillines that I should speak out (up?) against this practice.

Re:That's not the answer.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, irony sure got your nose there witht he -1: Troll.

Re:That's not the answer.

[Elad Alon]

Just wait, I'll metamoderate him -1: Moron.

Heh heh

[Anonymous Coward]

He said Firebird dropin'

Maybe it comes from Sealab 2021

[Anonymous Coward]

"Shelves of a toystore?" Ha, ha, good one, fignuts.
http://tinyurl.com/c3m98/

How about adding frigging exchange support....

[dangermen]

How about adding frigging exchange support to the calendaring app.... Yes yes, bowing to the man but there are a LOT of businesses that use exchange. Providing them a good alternative for Win/Linux would be a HUGE. The problem with Kontact and Evolution is that they are pigs. Thunderbird/sunbird are nice because they are simple application footprints.

Re:How about adding frigging exchange support....

[pe1chl]

It usually is not very attractive to switch to a competing app that interfaces with systems like Exchange, Windows Terminal Server, Citrix, etc.
This is because you need a "client access license" to use such systems. So, even when you are not using Outlook you still have to pay. In some cases, you are even "forced" to buy the complete product.
(e.g. to use Terminal Server you need a Windows license for your workstation. Fine when it already runs Windows, but when it is running a competing system you have to buy that license)

This takes one of the incentives away from switching to a competing environment.
To cater for this, you have to develop a competing Exchange server as well (this has already been done, of course).
At that moment, it may be more attractive to develop according to an open standard.

Why not call it Mozilla 2.0

[gatzke]

So the foundation does not support Mozilla anymore.

Since the source is open, can't they continue development on Mozilla and realease 2.0?

Seamonkey is crazy. Mozilla is bad enough, but it has years of user experience behind it.

Why not?

[EraserMouseMan]

I can't wait till they put this software out!!! I can finally stop making excuses for why we don't have something that works like Outlook.

exactly - Why

[Anonymous Coward]

It raises a good question why would you integrate a calendar in to an email client? Sure integrate necessary functions but the two are chalk and cheese so it always seemed like a crap idea to me.

Calendar

[Anonymous Coward]

What sort of calendar. Not all of us use the gregorian calendar, and many of those who do have the date formatted in a more logical order like dd/mm/yyyy instead of the silly idea of having the month first.

Re:Calendar

[Anonymous Coward]

date formatted in a more logical order like dd/mm/yyyy

Pfff. Everybody knows the one true way is yyyy/mm/dd, as it is the natural prefix to hh/mm/ss.

Re:Calendar

[CRCulver]

If you've ever seen Sunbird, then you would know that it allows you to configure the calendar to display however you want. And "a more logical order" would really be ISO 8601 (YYYY-MM-DD) instead of anything that Britain or the United States would fight over.

Coincidence, I think NOT!

[AviLazar]

I was actually talking about this with my friend last night. If Thunderbird gets a quality calander (task, calander, etc) and contact list it will SMOKE Outlook. First MS Outlook doesn't (as far as I have been able to figure it out) support multiple mailboxes, where they go into different directories and are treated differently (sort rules do not count). Thunderbird handles this well.
I use (on my home computer) Outlook for work (required) and Thunderbird to handle my four different e-mail accounts. Very convenient.

Re:Coincidence, I think NOT!

[Anonymous Coward]

Outlook 2000 and 2003 (what we run at work) creates different folders for each account, each with their own sent/draft/deleted/spam folders.

Although maybe that's just with imap, we don't use pop3 and the last time i used pop3 with outlook it was when i ran outlook express so that doesn't count.

Do you want a 'friggin' pony with that?...

[Kunta Kinte]

How about adding frigging exchange support to the calendaring app....

I guess no one on the entire Mozilla Calendar team or the user community, for that matter, has thought of that right? :)

Not trying to give you a hard time, but what you're asking for would be very, very, difficult. You would essentially have to reverse engineer Microsoft's MAPI over RPC protocol. Many have tried, none have succeeded. Or, if you only support newer versions of Exchange with OWA turned on, use Microsoft's WebDAV based calendar schema built on Exchange WebAccess, like Evolution does.

Mozilla is doing the best they could I think, they're basing their app on a protocol on the IETF standards track http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-dusseault-c aldav/ If an organization wants to get rid of Exchange entirely, they then can give their Outlook users a MAPI plugin that supports CalDAV. We're an opensource plugin at OpenConnector.org.

Re:Do you want a 'friggin' pony with that?...

[dangermen]

Kontact has support. It is -slow-. Plus is means ALL of KDE must be available for calendar support. The mozilla teams could 'learn' from the KDE code.

Re:Do you want a 'friggin' pony with that?...

[colding]

Not trying to give you a hard time, but what you're asking for would be very, very, difficult. You would essentially have to reverse engineer Microsoft's MAPI over RPC protocol. Many have tried, none have succeeded.

Which is exactly why it is a smart thing to try the other approach - proxying extended MAPI over a standard protocol. See how Brutus does this with CORBA: http://www.omesc.com/).

Which would bring it in line with Evolution

[Brunellus]

So, tell me--what does this new thing do that Evolution doesn't do already?

Re:Which would bring it in line with Evolution

[ldspartan]

Run on windows.

Re:Which would bring it in line with Evolution

[NetCynicism]

So, tell me--what does this new thing do that Evolution doesn't do already?

Work on the operating system that most people have to use at work.

Re:Which would bring it in line with Evolution

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing really if you are a Linux user. A Lot, for the rest of the world (Windows + MacOS). Evolution doesn't exist for Mac and the Windows port is poor.

we moved away from this

[Anonymous Coward]

We were using Entourage (the Outlook stuff renamed for Mac) and it sucked. Everything is in this huge database and once it hits 2GB it barfs. So we moved everybody over to the Apple equivalents. (Mail, Address Book, iCal). We set up WebDAV so we could share calendars and we're putting together OpenLDAP so we can pull stuff down into Addy book.

It's worked really well. One thing we really like is that all these apps are seperate but work together really well. So if one app craps out you don't lose everything. And if you don't want to use the calendar right now but you want your mail open, you don't have the calendar idling in ram.

I think Mozilla was shit until homeboy created phoenix and cut away a lot of the bloat. It was just plain unuseable. It was a talking point for all those who wanted to talk shit about Open Source and Free software. Breaking out and stripping down the web browser, then the mail client.. etcetera is the key to what has made the Mozilla codebase viable in the market today.

It's moronic to roll them back into a big ball of bloat.

I know from my own experience that running a group of seperate apps is no big deal for an enterprise. Office works that way (excel, word, ppt). Adobe and Macromedia suites work that way.

So this would be my reccomendation to the Mozilla foundation: Instead of integrating the apps into a bloatware, create an installer/uninstaller/management app that an IT department can use to easily handle the administration of these seperate apps in client machines. This is what every other suite of software for an enterprise does and it works really well. What I reccomend NOT doing is taking a constellation of great, successful apps, forking them, rolling them into a monolothic mess and spending valuable resources managing both forks.

Save the poor mozilla server

[GarfBond]

Coral Cache link

The name

[Guppy06]

"the project to integrate its calendar application Sunbird with its email application Thunderbird."

Obviously they should acll it "Mozilla Spacellama."

Oh, wait, that's their browser...

Now they just need to integrate the web browser...

[TheLittleJetson]

...and a web content composer, and maybe a crappy IRC client to boot.

Lightning vs. Sunbird

[north.coaster]

It sounds like Lightning is a TB extension, while Sunbird is a standalone program. What are the pros and cons for each?

OS X Exchange Support

[Anonymous Coward]

Download SP2 for Office 2004 and Entourage becomes a halfway decent Exchange client. Public folders work now.
http://www.microsoft.com/mac/default.aspx?pid=offi ce2004sp2

I don't think the Thunderbird plugin does much yet

[sillypixie]

You would think so. But it doesn't seem to work that way.

I installed the plugin not long ago, with the expectation that at MINIMUM, you would be able to drag & drop .ics calendar attachments into the calendar. Automatic detection of scheduling requests would be even better.

It doesn't appear to do even that. As far as I could see, the only way to get scheduling requests into the calendar (regardless of whether you use Sunbird or the Thunderbird plugin) is to save the .ics file to your hard drive and then use the "import" command to import the event.

Therefore, as far as I can tell, the only advantage to using the Thunderbird plugin at this time, is that it sits in the Thunderbird directory instead of its own directory. And that you open it as a switch to the thunderbird command, instead of as a separate command. Whoop-dee-doo. Not to say that I don't understand that this is a work-in-progress, I am aware of that. I'm sure that .ics detection or drag/drop is high on the to-do list. I still find Sunbird useful, and I'm using it now. I just don't see that there is any level of actual email/calendar integration yet.

I would love to be wrong about this by the way. Maybe somebody will reply to this and tell me that the plugin has lots of very useful bits - but as long as I have to manage my .ics attachments myself, I can't think of the plugin as getting me much.

Pix

Get thunderbird straight first

[Anonymous Coward]

They need to make Thunderbird a useful application so that it beats Outlook first. I have been using Thunderbird for over a year now (with some 500 emails per week) and its been really crappy as compared ot Outlook 2003.

Re:Get thunderbird straight first

[seb249]

Tell me, what do you miss from Thunderbird ?

I use thunderbird exclusively and get around 200 emails a day, as an imap client it suits my needs down to the ground. What functionality of Outlook 2003 do you miss ?

Re:Get thunderbird straight first

[Zey]

Tell me, what do you miss from Thunderbird?

Stable IMAP-SSL support would be nice. As it is, it crashes regularly both in Windows and X11 (Linux). While I generally use Evolution on X11, Thunderbird is the best of a bad bunch for supporting this on Windows. Some improvement would be much appreciated though.

Re:Now they just need to integrate the web browser

[Pichu0102]

Hold it, Chatzilla is a nice, simple IRC client extension for those who don't know much about IRC already. I personally use mIRC, but Chatzilla is nice too.

OT: Your sig

[Anonymous Coward]

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is bruised and spongy.

Re:why don't they call it "Look Out"... ??? No???

[justsomebody]

No, since you used too much of rocket science and physical terms in your proposal. Also it would be suggestable to avoid chemical expressions, complex mathematical formulas and alien language loops.

And remember, this is /. where people "LOOK IN" their monitors and have no girlfriends. Where on the world have you seen a geek even "looking out" the window, god forbid he would see a real outside world without virtual interface.

ReminderFox

[tommut]

Not sure if this will be of use, but there is a lightweight Firefox extension that displays reminders and ToDo's for you.

http://reminderfox.mozdev.org/

This extension was developed to fill this very need; it seems most calendar apps either don't do something that simple, or do more than I need.

-Tom

Palm / PDA support?

[edmicman]

When will it have Palm/PocketPC/PDA support? Thats the big thing keeping me from switching from Palm Desktop and/or Outlook.

I was thinking the exact same thing

[contrapuntalmindset]

They already did this once ...

Re:Now they just need to integrate the web browser

[Narchie Troll]

If you use mIRC, it stands to reason that you think Chatzilla is "nice".

This will take a long time...

[IGnatius T Foobar]

...but it will be worth it. The goal, of course, is standards-based functionality for PIM (Personal Information Management) software. Yes, people really do want a replacement for Outlook, and the open source community would do well to offer complete, end-to-end solutions. Combine the Lightning client with standards-based servers and you've got a good shot at finally getting people to dump Outlook and Exchange.

Here's the thing, though: everyone seems to assume that we need an "Outlook Killer" and an "Exchange Killer." This is, in fact, not true. "One size fits all" only works for Microsoft because Microsoft forces that model. In an ideal world, everyone will select the products that fit them best, and those products will all work together. That means some folks might choose Lightning, some might choose Aethera instead, and they'd still be able to interact with each other's calendars. On the server side, the dozen or so open source groupware servers such as Kolab, OGo, Citadel, and PHPgroupware would all be able to speak common protocols with Lightning and other clients. Users would choose based on other features; for example, one organization might want strong support for forms-based workflow, another might want rich real-time communications, another might want a large selection of third-party plugins. The idea is to allow people to choose their software based on the feature set, rather than by being locked into one choice because, for example, only Exchange supports all the features of Outlook.

It's going to take a lot of cooperation but we'll get there.

Re:This will take a long time...

[Anonymous Coward]

While I agree with what you say, the single factor preventing me switching the last 10% of my Outlook users to Mozilla, is the inability of any 3G mobile phone and many PDA's to sync address books or mail with these applications.

Until PDA/phone manufacturers support something other than Outlook, or Mozilla "speaks" Outlook, this is a showstopper for many.

Re:This will take a long time...

[IGnatius T Foobar]

Until PDA/phone manufacturers support something other than Outlook, or Mozilla "speaks" Outlook, this is a showstopper for many.

While I agree that mobile devices need to sync. I'd rather see them syncing with the server. That could be accomplished with something like Sync4J, which speaks in a standards-compliant way (wherever possible) to the server. That way you don't have to have your desktop running (or connected) in order to sync your mobile device.

It's called Hula.

[bitfoo]

http://www.hula-project.org/Hula_Server

Office 2004 SP2 fixes that.

[Daltorak]

Microsoft has spent the last year working almost solely on improving Entourage to work better with Exchange. Last week they released Office 2004 Service Pack 2, which contains improvements to everything you've noted as being problems: Public folder support; sharing of mailboxes, calendars, contacts; complete global address list support; ability to do delegation... and so on and so forth. More information on MS's website.

Re:Office 2004 SP2 fixes that.

[nine-times]

Good news. Thanks.

I was so disappointed when Entourage 2004 came out, but at least this shows that Microsoft is willing to put forth some effort.

Another name suggestion

[einhverfr]

Mozilla was a contraction of "Mosaic Killer"

So why not Attilla
"Outlook Killer"

Besides, Attilla sounds like it would kick #$%

Re:Another name suggestion

[Mr. Muskrat]

Because Attilla is too close to Attila (debt collection software).

Mod parent funny

[hostyle]

Microsoft has spent the last year working almost solely on improving Entourage

WTF? Can I have some of what you're on please? I'd love to have that rosy happy warm feeling that beer isn't currently providing. Microsoft working full-time on a a Macintosh product? Pure comedy. Please don't let me down by making a retraction saying that perhaps you exagerated a stretch. After all, those can't be cheap pharmaceuticals you're imbibing.

Re:Mod parent funny

[Achromatic1978]

Bad wording, but I think you know that he meant "Microsoft's Entourage development efforts have been almost solely focused on Exchange integration", as opposed to other/new functionality.

Make Thunderbird/Sunbird useful first

[metamatic]

I know it's easy to carp, but how long is it going to be before Thunderbird can at least support vCard in its address book, and leap into 1998?

The only way to unify my mail and calendar...

[CaptKilljoy]

The only way I can visualize to unify my mail and calendar involves a car crusher.

lightweight?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you mean Thunderbird is lightweight? Or do you advise to keep *another* (actually lightweight) mail client?

Sure the Mozilla Foundation products are quite good, but most of them suck memory like a black hole.

Re:lightweight?

[augustz]

Very true!

I was really thinking of lightweight *relative* to the mozilla suite, or to the article's description of a combined email / calendering web app. But you make a very good point.

Re:Now they just need to integrate the web browser

[Jesus_666]

Well, mIRC does have a pretty nifty scripting language. As much as I like being able to use PHP scripts in Konversation, it'd be nice if I could also let scripts be triggered by received text like in mIRC. Or use simple commands to create usable GUIs. (And no, I won't switch to XChat and learn Tcl or Python. Maybe if they offer Ruby support.)
Okay, so mIRC is the Microsoft of chat clients: It doesn't care about the standards everyone else uses (Unicode), it creates de-facto standards by extending protocols without asking (color codes) and it creates hordes of users who can't imagine that someone might be using some other program. But it does have a nice scripting language.

Mozilla Calendar Project needs developers

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, the Mozilla Calendar project(s) have been stale for years now. That's not because there isn't work going on, but there are way too few developers interested on the thing. Yet the enormous response each announcement gets that speaks of calendar integration for Mozilla should be indication enough that this is a very rewarding project.

So folks, join them.

Zimbra

[MysteryBee]

I wonder if the open source http://zimbra.com/ isn't what we'll all be wanting to use next. Check out the live demos on their site, I was very impressed with their ajax magic.

This sounds silly ...

[angel'o'sphere]

... to me.

I use a Mac. My Mail, Calendar, Adressbook are three seperated applications. And thats how I wanjt them to be. No silly Outlook like super window wich is either in "email mode" or in "calendar mode".

I want two windows, especially on a two displays setup where my main screen hosts my Mail program and on the external screen I have web browser and Calendar.

Note: a PIM like Outlook is designed like an IDE ... but it is'nt an IDE. Basically, it makes no sense, only for M$ and because of having an all in one solution keeps theri competitors out.

angel'o'sphere

P.S. I'm disappointed ... because on our linux machines we use Thunderbird and considered a Mozilla Calendar client also, but now we have to find a new calendar client.

Re:This sounds silly ...

[jabberwocky_rt]

Since no one, but the devs, actually know exactly how lightning will lightning will look/feel, or even for that matter DO, I think we should wait before jumping to conclusions.

If one of your concerns is having to switch 'views' between email and calendars, I don't think you have too much to worry about (after all they could have made the contacts currently in thunderbird work like that...)

And while you're at it....

[Anonymous Coward]

....fix Tbird's braindead search feature, please!

do it like Gmail search. come on, they can pull it off in a remote app, so why can't moz do something similar in Tbird's offline search?

So I guess they will call it...

[elhedran]

Thunderchild, A modern marvel that takes on the invasion from, um, spammars?

Re:So I guess they will call it...

[chawly]

Your idea consoles me. I imagined this idea on my favourite white-box and the name "Thunderbox" sprang unbidden to my mind. Your idea is good.

Re:I don't think the Thunderbird plugin does much

[V_Pundit]

I have used Sunbird and the Thunderbird plugin - there is also a Firefox plugin that I have used. Currently I don't use any of them because they are not integrated well enough as you have said. It turns out that I can get by without dishing out the money for outlook by just keeping my own calendar. If Lightning gets to be anywhere near as good as Outlook then I will rethink my position.

I *swear* I read that as "uglify" not "unify"

[rjamestaylor]

Maybe it's 'cause I use Mozilla/Firefox on OS X, but I really have nothing against Mozilla. Of course, Safari is much sweeter, but...my heart is with Mozilla.

Microsoft moves

[C_Kode]

Fix what you have first. Thunderbird still have filter and moving email problems. (and no I don't just mean when using IMAP. I use POP3/local folders and I have to restart Thunderbird all the time to get my messages where they need to be.

Re:I don't think the Thunderbird plugin does much

[jtobe]

yah man, you are wrong. The sunbird plugin was never intended to integrate into thunderbird to give you outlook. That's why they have the lightning project. Sunbird is simply a calendar app build on the same platform as firefox and thunderbird. I believe if you take a look at the site you'll see that lightning is the project you are really looking for. From the looks of things it will add many great features and really bring things together to provide a killer mail/calendar app.

Re:I don't think the Thunderbird plugin does much

[sillypixie]

You, my friend, are an incurable optimist.

I'm guessing you are imagining that after installing Lightning, Thunderbird will suddenly devote a small amount of window real estate to a miniature calendar and a daytimer, a la OutLook.

Nuh uh. Right now, all that Lightning does when installed, is to pop up a second window from Thunderbird that looks *exactly* like Sunbird in every possible way. All the functionality is identical to Sunbird. Right now, Lightning *is* Sunbird, but running from the Thunderbird directory. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Once Email-Task integration is implemented, Lightning will become useful - but I can't imagine anyone is expecting an integration that is in any way similar to OutLook's interface.

Pix

Re:I don't think the Thunderbird plugin does much

[Tombstone-f]

You haven't actually used Lightning, have you (it's not the calendar plugin)?
Lightning does put a small calendar in the lower left corner of Thunderbird. When you click on it, it will open a larger calendar in the messages area of Thunderbird (at least it'll open if you get the right build).
Here are some older screenshots of Lighning. They're from may, and it looks much better now.

Re:I don't think the Thunderbird plugin does much

[sillypixie]

Well, I'll be damned!

I went to the roadmap site, and saw no screenshots or notes about single-window integration.

I guess that makes *me* the pessimist...

Thanks for correcting me gently.

Pix

What about integrating USERS and NOT apps?

[ZenCow]

I'm surprised that nobody is asking for the ability to schedule resources and coordinate meetings with other users. Am I missing some hidden feature of Sunbird that already exists, or does nobody care about sharing calendars and checking for other people's time availability?

I REALLY don't want to run an Exchange server, but without an alternative (not even on the horizon), I fear that I may have to just bend over and take it, as I build up a whole MS infrastructure alongsize our existing Linux infrastructure. Yeeeech!

Or is someone going to make it so that my users can easily schedule people and resources (conf rooms, equipment, etc) like is possible under the (cough) Outlook Calendar (cough)? I'm no programmer, but I wish I had the time to contribute to this...