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Internet Immunization

xav_jones writes "Nature.com reports on computer experts from Israel who are proposing a different strategy for combating fast-spreading worms and viruses -- one in which the fix can, theoretically, keep up with or stay ahead of the malicious code. They 'propose a system in which a few honeypot computers lie in wait for viruses. These computers run automated software that first identifies the virus, and then sends out its signature across the Internet. This enables a sentinel program on all the other computers in the network to identify the virus and bar it before it can attack them.' The honeypot computers would reside in a secure, dedicated network. For 'roughly 200 million computers ... [with] just 800,000 [(0.004%)] of them acting as honeypots [it] would restrict a viral outbreak to 2,000 machines.'"

229 comments

  1. WOW by rovingeyes · · Score: 4, Interesting

    All that to combat worms and viruses? If I am correct, most of the worms and viruses infect because of a vulnerabilitly in the software. So what if these sentinnels of "guardian angels" themselves have some flaws which these viruses exploit. How about spending some money on training developers to practise safe coding. How about educating average joe to not click on the Britney's image and let him know that she is not going to blow him? How about lobbying to pass laws to force software companies to pass a higher standard? Heck even children toys have certain standards that the companies have to adhere to.

    Seems like rational ideas are just an illision now a days. Don quixote suddenly seems more reasonable to me than this guy.

    1. Re:WOW by baryon351 · · Score: 3, Informative

      > Seems like rational ideas are just an illision now a days

      Seems like good math skills are too. 800,000 computers out of 200 million is WAY more than 0.004% as the summary stated

      Someone is off by a couple orders of magnitude. Much closer to half a percent.

    2. Re:WOW by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      All the training in the world doesn't completely stop the problem. Keep in mind, many of the vulnerabilities out there today aren't just a simple gets() flaw; they result when two otherwise secure modules interact in an unforeseen, and nigh unforeseeable, way. Some security training will prevent most of the problems, but nothing you do will completely eliminate them. And no, going with a Virtual Machine approach still isn't 100%. Heard about the recently discovered Limewire flaw?

      And as for teaching average joe, we've been trying that for years. I've known people my age (college age that is) who were raised around computers and know *how* to play it safe, but they skip the firewall, virus scanner, etc. because it slows their computer a bit. They *know* not to click on Britney's image, but the self-propagating worms don't need you to click sometimes.

      Standards like you envision for computer software only work in extremely well defined environments; a general purpose desktop/laptop has too many variables to algorithmically weed out all problems.

    3. Re:WOW by JeepingNET · · Score: 1

      Works great for companies in the states but how do you inforce this world wide... What we need is team america..

    4. Re:WOW by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      You're a teacher? It's not 0.004%, it's 0.004. 0.004% is actually 0.00004. Come back when you've had a little Excel training maybe.

    5. Re:WOW by thx1138_az · · Score: 0

      The honeypot computers would reside in a secure, dedicated network.

      I must've missed something here. If their on a secure network, how do they infected with the virus again?

    6. Re:WOW by arnorhs · · Score: 1

      That's like saying "how about making people learn to drive better" instead of making cars with seatbelts and guard rails for roads... at least the way i see it...

    7. Re:WOW by ameyer17 · · Score: 1

      Secure is relative. Nothing's 100% secure. That, and they're on the internet and the reports are going on this separate, secure, dedicated network.

    8. Re:WOW by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      You're one of the dumb shits teaching kids to be morons. For fucks sake dude, if you're a teacher go back to grade school yourself, preferably under a teacher who has some actual skills & common sense. Anyone with a brain can spot that 1,000,000 out of 200,000,000 is going to be half of one percent, so 800,000 is not in any way going to be 0.004%.

      Hint: Calculators are useful tools only if you already have a basic idea of what you're doing. And you don't. I pity the kids you're filling full of shit.

    9. Re:WOW by thx1138_az · · Score: 0

      That's different than what the posting said. the posting states that the honeypot computers are located on the secure network rather than the on internet. What you state makes more sense.

    10. Re:WOW by RingDev · · Score: 1

      Yes, becuase getting 50 programmers form 20 different companies and organizations to design perfect software that integrates flawlessly with out increasing the budget or time line is soooo simple. We'll just send them off to a week long training seminar! And then they can design interfaces that not only are of a perfect coding standard, but are also designed so that no user could ever create a situation that would put their computer at risk.

      Cha right. And monkies might fly from my ass.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    11. Re:WOW by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 1

      Yeah, from the article it's 0.4%. The error was on the part of the poster, not the researcher.

    12. Re:WOW by tomhudson · · Score: 1
      Not only that - but to work, these computers are all going to have to communicate their info to each other in real time, and then to the computers depending on them for the signatures.

      So now anyone can DoS the whole internet in under 2 seconds by sending a virus to 1 computer.

      Must be a full moon out there somewhere ...

    13. Re:WOW by nizo · · Score: 1
      Well see all you need to do is write a "good" virus that goes out and infects machines to make them act as honeypots....


      Cha right. And monkies might fly from my ass.

      If they do then lemme tell ya, do I have the website for you!

    14. Re:WOW by Sigl · · Score: 2
      All that to combat worms and viruses?

      You're right. That is a lot of work. Please straighten these guys out because there must be something easier than this.

      How about spending some money on training developers to practise safe coding.

      Definitely. Educating the coders has saved us from inefficent apps and poorly documented code. It only makes sense to add secure coding practices to this list of perfection. If only we could have known ahead of time that security might have been a problem.

      How about educating average joe to not click on the Britney's image and let him know that she is not going to blow him?

      Yes, let's reason with them. The article example only takes the US computers into account. I think they are inferring the US is incapable of listening to reason! We'll show'em.

      How about lobbying to pass laws to force software companies to pass a higher standard? Heck even children toys have certain standards that the companies have to adhere to.

      I'd hate for my children to be using programs that were a danger to them. Wait... how are computers a danger to my children? Well, anyway, if people won't buy secure software we should force them to buy secure software... once we have secure software from the coders we will teach secure coding practices.

      So what if these sentinnels of "guardian angels" themselves have some flaws which these viruses exploit.

      No problem. Secure coding practices are easy enough to teach them. Once that's done there shouldn't be any concern.

      Don quixote suddenly seems more reasonable to me than this guy.

      Right on.

    15. Re:WOW by timlewis_atlanta · · Score: 1

      >> So what if these sentinnels of "guardian angels" themselves have some flaws which these viruses exploit.

      A valid point but the rest of your points don't hold water. It would be nice if they did, but I think you're being a bit idealistic.

      >> How about spending some money on training developers to practise safe coding.

      Many developers are stupid and not well trained, and hence cheaper than good coders. Many big businesses always go with the lowest bidder. Therefore bad coders will always be around.

      >> How about educating average joe to not click on the Britney's image and let him know that she is not going to blow him?

      Joe Average is pretty gullible when it comes to these things. That's something you just can't change. You might be able to raise the level of awareness but you'll never eliminate irresponsible or risky behaviour.

      >> How about lobbying to pass laws to force software companies to pass a higher standard?

      OK pass a law in the USA. Pass a law in the EU. Now try enforcing that worldwide. It's not going to happen. In any case, all you'd achieve is driving business away from USA and EU where companies don't have to comply and can do their work with less regulatory interference, and hence at a lower cost.

      >> Heck even children toys have certain standards that the companies have to adhere to.

      Yes, you can enforce consumer laws on a country-wide basis, but you can't enforce this with software in what is an essentially open network that crosses international borders.

      There is no magic bullet for fixing the problems we have today - fighting viruses and spam is a journey, not a destination. That said, personal computers need to be much easier to use in a safe manner. I like to say that a PC should be as easy to use as a radio : you turn it on and it works ; if you don't like something you change stations, but it can never do anything bad to you.

    16. Re:WOW by nettdata · · Score: 1

      ahh... calculators... much like computers...

      garbage in, garbage out

      --



      $0.02 (CDN)
    17. Re:WOW by wile_e_wonka · · Score: 1

      This is one of my favorite things! When people state their authority (in this case, by pointing out that you're a teacher), and then making a fool out of yourself.

      800,000 / 200,000,000 = .004. .004 is a ratio. A ratio is a fraction; when there is only one number shown in the ratio, then it is only showing the numerator and we therefore assume the denominator is 1. Every .004 computers out of 1 would be a virus checker. Percentages are ratios as well--but instead of using 1 as the denominator, percentages use 100 (per cent--"cent" is derived from Latin hundred. Note there are 100 "cents" in one dollar. 40 percent means 40 per cent, or 40 per hundred). So, to turn a ratio that uses one as the denominator into a ratio that uses 100 in the denominator, we multiply both the numerator and the denominator by 100.

      So, to apply that here we would take our ratio that we calculated (.004), which implicitly holds 1 in the denominator and multiply it by 100/100. This gives us .4/100, or .4 per cent, or .4 percent, or .4%.

      Fool! Hahaha!

    18. Re:WOW by PsiPsiStar · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      .004 = .4%

      If you were one of my students I'd gladly fail you.

      That's sad, really. Maybe you should consider gladly rechecking your work before criticizing someone? Seems like someone misses not being able to look up their answers in the back of the book.

      I hate unions because they too often wind up protecting people like you, when they should be working to kick you out on your ass.

      I promise I won't laugh too much.

      You seem to be suffering from delusions of adequacy.

      --

      ___
      It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
    19. Re:WOW by Killall+-9+Bash · · Score: 1
      How many articles in the Symantec knowledge base are there about how to remove prefix.worm.suffix?

      1. if running norton antivirus protects against worms, why would customers have any?

      2. if running norton antivirus could remove the worms, why are there lengthy explinations telling customers what they need to do to remove worms?

      --
      "Prediction: within 10 years, Windows will be a Linux distribution." Me, 7-6-2016
    20. Re:WOW by loudambiance · · Score: 1

      Ok teacher man, I am an undergrad math major and I know your wrong... the percent would actually be 0.4% if you need more proof, click here

    21. Re:WOW by PsiPsiStar · · Score: 1

      Um... I think you replied to the wrong comment.

      --

      ___
      It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
    22. Re:WOW by RingDev · · Score: 1

      "That's like saying "how about making people learn to drive better" instead of making cars with seatbelts and guard rails for roads... at least the way i see it..."

      Yes, and if every US internet user had to take a 6 week course, 20 hours of simulated net usage, 20 hours hands on instructor guided net usage, then had to pass both a written and prac app test, then spend two years on a probationary net use license... Yes, then I could see sinking a huge investment into making software perfect.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    23. Re:WOW by powers_722 · · Score: 1

      The summary said "0.004%, which is not the same as (800,000 / 200,000,000) OR the 0.4% in the actual article. The number in the summary is the ratio, not the percent, and is incorrect and misleading.

    24. Re:WOW by PsiPsiStar · · Score: 1


      Look at the post I was replying to;

      If you were one of my students I'd gladly fail you. Try it in a calculator

      800,000 divided by 200,000,000, It's 0.004%. Feel like coming back and studying grade school math under me? I promise I won't laugh too much.

      --

      ___
      It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
    25. Re:WOW by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All that to combat worms and viruses?

      If it would work, it would be a valid investment. Obviously you have no idea how much money is annually lost because of malware in the US alone.

      If I am correct, most of the worms and viruses infect because of a vulnerabilitly in the software. So what if these sentinnels of "guardian angels" themselves have some flaws which these viruses exploit.

      Your only moderately coherent point, as far as I can see. However, there are several replies to this. The first is that the people maintaining these machines will undoubtedly be absolutely top-notch. So the risk of vulnerabilities in the software will be orders of magnitudes lower than for normal boxes. The second reply is that this would just be another layer of security. Patching software as usual, etc. would still be required and expected. Third, empirical evidence suggest honeypots work fine. Maybe you didn't know that they are already in use all over the place. Fourth, do you understand the concept of a virtual machine? No? Then STFU.

      How about spending some money on training developers to practise safe coding. How about educating average joe to not click on the Britney's image and let him know that she is not going to blow him?

      Yeah, it's not like we've done that for ten years already. It isn't enough. Get it?

      How about lobbying to pass laws to force software companies to pass a higher standard?

      You don't work in security, that much is blatantly obvious. Software breaks for all sorts of reasons, and while holding companies to a higher standard would probably help to some extent, it would far from eliminate the problem. For one thing, many vulnerabilities appear only when software from different vendors interact in ways that were not predicted. No stricter laws will ever prevent this. Second, for any reasonably complex software, it's impossible to prove its security. You can waste more money trying it out and looking for bugs, but in the end you have to let it go at some point. Do you have any idea how much research is required to find some exploits? Quite obviously, you do not.

      In my experience, people who think the security problems could be solved if coders could just "write a little tighter code" are pretty worthless developers themselves. Any decent developer knows that it's impossible to write flawless code. NASAs had rockets blow up because of bugs. You believe you're so much better than them you can tell them what to do, that they're not good enough? Get a grip.

      Seems like rational ideas are just an illision now a days.

      It's "illusion". And "nowadays". Apart from that, nice completely pointless flaming blanket statement, providing absolutely zero content to your otherwise already completely worthless post.

      Don quixote suddenly seems more reasonable to me than this guy.

      It's amazing that you can insult someone who's, let's face it, obviously much more intelligent and well versed in this area than you, without even providing a single decent argument about what's wrong with his proposal. You're promoting different measures that could easily exist in tandem with his proposal. The only semi-argument you have provided is "but what if these boxes get hacked!" and not even that was even fleshed out in any moderately meaningful way.

      So, to summarize:
      1. You're insulting people without even bothering to understand their position.
      2. You propose measures which have been tried and don't work.
      3. You have trouble with the very basic concept of layered security.

      Or, even shorter:
      1. You're an idiot.
      2. You don't understand security.

      Now go away please. People like you just pisses me off.

    26. Re:WOW by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you were one of my students I'd gladly fail you. Try it in a calculator

      800,000 divided by 200,000,000, It's 0.004%. Feel like coming back and studying grade school math under me? I promise I won't laugh too much.


      In all honesty, please do the world a favor and find a different career. I don't say this to be mean. I'm serious. Please think about it. You simply are not qualified, and you need to consider what harm your attempt at teaching will do.

    27. Re: WOW by gidds · · Score: 1
      I've never understood why percentages have become so popular, when plain simple ordinary fractions (rational or decimal) are much more powerful, precise, and don't have all these opportunities for confusion.

      --

      Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.

    28. Re:WOW by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "All that to combat worms and viruses?"

      And who's to pay that effort?

      I mean, I use Linux, no virus here, don't expect me to pay for such a nonsense.

    29. Re:WOW by pipingguy · · Score: 1


      Seems like rational ideas are just an illision now a days

      And why not? Sit an elderly person in front of a screen and keyboard and tell them all the wonderful things you can do on the internets.

      "I have to click the Start button to stop it?"
      "Am I supposed to click OK all the time?"

      This is probably the single biggest change in history (if you weight it with how long it has taken to happen).

      This is a BIG DEAL for people that saw the touch-tone telephone as a technological marvel. They have to re-learn everything.

      It's easy for us and we can be smuggy.

    30. Re:WOW by xav_jones · · Score: 1

      Yeah, mea culpa. I was trying to include that part from the article and just did the calculation myself rather than find it in the article. I realised my mistake the instant I hit the submit button and no amount of scrabbling at the screen would bring it back!

  2. A fine idea . . . by taustin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Except that no system is prefectly secure.

    And once someone finds a hole in this magic system, it will become the most effective means of distributing viruses ever invented.

    1. Re:A fine idea . . . by TubeSteak · · Score: 2, Informative
      However, he points out that someone would still need to run the honeypot computers, and it is not clear how to secure the wormholes so that only antiviral agents can use them. "These virus writers are smart guys, and they could find a way to attack the parallel network itself," he cautions.
      Yea, they realize that.
      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    2. Re:A fine idea . . . by toupsie · · Score: 4, Funny
      Except that no system is prefectly secure.

      What about the Vic-20 locked in my closet under my old underware with all the keys stuck from 20 year old Coca-Cola? I dare you to break into that!

      --
      Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
    3. Re:A fine idea . . . by AuMatar · · Score: 4, Funny

      I already did. You are one twisted pervert. I copied your collection.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    4. Re:A fine idea . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Right. It's amazing how much this sounds like a retro-virus vector, like HIV/AIDS. First, it gets the immune system (this new-fangled idea to cover up Microsoft's sloppy coding) to attack the infrastructure of the internet ("the body"). Then it leaves the system (the body) at the mercy of normal viruses and worms.

    5. Re:A fine idea . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not what a retrovirus does. Most viruses have a payload of DNA which is transcribed in the cell, sometimes getting stitched into the host cells DNA. A retrovirus is made of RNA, which is then used as a template to stitch the DNA payload directly into the host's DNA. While HIV is indeed a retrovirus, the fact that it attacks the immune system is a completely unrelated issue. And it sounds like this wouldn't be so much two seperate computer viruses working together, but simply putting the payload into a virus that attacks computers which people thought were secure.

    6. Re:A fine idea . . . by dalerb · · Score: 4, Funny

      Ah, you know someone is a techie when they misspell "underwear" as "underware".

    7. Re:A fine idea . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who is worse? the pervert or the pervert that copies him?

    8. Re:A fine idea . . . by PickyH3D · · Score: 1
      No better at spreading than any current issues. So lets say they break the honeypots, all that they did was make it so people suddenly don't get a warning coming their way (probably), and maybe when they contact the honeypot server (since they couldn't be contacting us due to sheer volume), then they can send something to us. However, all we need from the honeypot is a signature, and we don't have to execute ANYTHING coming from their transmition to our computers because the point of it is to show us a virus or trojan. So, the virus on the honeypot needs to double its efforts and know an exploit on the callers system in order to break into it.

      It's not worth it because there would most certainly be plenty of system unprotected and messing with a computer that is monitored for signs of trouble by people that know what they're doing is an easy way to get caught earlier in the game than they do these days.

      That's my opinion anyway. I don't think the system would really work because who would manage all 800,000+ machines? Who would pay for it?

    9. Re:A fine idea . . . by icydog · · Score: 1

      Only a true /.er would spell "underwear" "underware."

    10. Re:A fine idea . . . by bruthasj · · Score: 1

      It's called HIV.

    11. Re:A fine idea . . . by pezzonovante1 · · Score: 1
      And once someone finds a hole in this magic system, it will become the most effective means of distributing viruses ever invented.
      then we'll have to hope we're one of the 2,000 that does get "infected" then
  3. Huh?!? by Locke2005 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The honeypot computers would reside in a secure, dedicated network Wouldn't that make it just a little difficult for the honeypots to contract a virus? Or is this some new definition of the word "secure" that I'm not familiar with?

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    1. Re:Huh?!? by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 2, Informative

      A honeypot need to get infected and then not spread that infection to other computers. Thus it needs a kind of "roach motel security": malware checks in, but it doesn't check out.

    2. Re:Huh?!? by Diss+Champ · · Score: 1

      Here's the real problem. If someone figures out where the honeypots are, and they want to kill some non-virus program, they send the honeypots the non-virus in a way that makes it look like a virus. Bingo, everyone relying on the system has their non-virus program treated like a virus.

      Now as to the "security" of the dedicated network, the trick is to notice the virus while not getting infected by it. So they should use "secure" as in "doesn't run windows" when trying to find windows viruses for the machines on the network- they can then have some windows boxes they can farm the virus to if they want to see what it does, but those should be unable to spread the virus back to the rest of the world, or do anything else nasty.

    3. Re:Huh?!? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Better yet, if you know how to make your honeypots 100% secure against all unknown viruses then could you share this technology with everyone else please? That way we wouldn't need the honeypots at all...

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    4. Re:Huh?!? by Krach42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm actually more worried that, if this secure and seperate network is easily identifiable, that one could avoid it simply by saying for example: "Don't attempt to infect any machines in the network 128.123.x.x"

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
    5. Re:Huh?!? by four_plane_color · · Score: 1

      Secure as in Microsoft. (Wide Open.)

    6. Re:Huh?!? by Squegie · · Score: 0

      Microsoft technicians have been hired to configure the security of this network.

    7. Re:Huh?!? by Grym · · Score: 1

      Better yet, if you know how to make your honeypots 100% secure against all unknown viruses then could you share this technology with everyone else please? That way we wouldn't need the honeypots at all...

      Not necessarily. Physically write-protect your hard-disk after a clean install and I'm fairly positive the vast majority your most of your virus woes will disappear.

      Of course, your computer might not be very good for general computing tasks then, now would it? But said computer could work for the purposes described in the article--that is, as a host for the virtual servers that make up honeypots.

      The last part shouldn't be overlooked either. One needn't have a computer with flaws to simulate a computer with flaws. In fact, that's the whole point of a honeypot.

      Imagine a computer running the most secure version of linux (Fanboys, feel free to tell me which one this is.) Now running in memory is our honeypot program which entirely emulates a Windows XP home machine. No read/write from this program is actually done on the drive, rather it is all simulated in memory. Any program inside would be unable to tell the difference. At this point one could do a couple of things: (1) Wait for threats to come to it. OR (2) Actively seek threats by, for example, automating a system to visit websites in IE and so on.

      Bear in mind that, because this is all virtual, this needn't be a one honeypot-per server system. In fact, one computer could be simultaneously representing hundreds or thousands of honeypots. Each one could represent a computer doing a different task or the various permutations of versions of windows, for instance.

      Such a system would be immune to the threats it was intended to study. In our example, only viruses which affected the most secure version of linux would be a threat--very rare. Whereas it could study, without consequence, Windows viruses--very common. Even if it wasn't necessarily 100% virus-proof, such a system could still be an incredibly useful tool in combating zero-day exploits.

      -Grym

  4. and who foots the bill... by SpectralDesign · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...for the ~1 million honey-pots, their connectivity, and their management?

    --
    Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss
    1. Re:and who foots the bill... by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 1

      The UN will do it after they take over the Internet. :-)

    2. Re:and who foots the bill... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One word: subscribers.

    3. Re:and who foots the bill... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know, but perhaps a small company run by a small group of Israeli computer experts will build and support them. Funny how that works out.

    4. Re:and who foots the bill... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your mom...

    5. Re:and who foots the bill... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This was proposed by Israeli researchers, so clearly they had US taxpayers in mind.

  5. Okay... by Golias · · Score: 1

    If it happens and is widely adopted, I think I'll start a betting pool on how long it will be before some hacker delivers a worm via this network's distribution system.

    --

    Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    1. Re:Okay... by aj1 · · Score: 1

      I'll put 100$ on the sixth of may... that is unless I'm on this secure network.

  6. Hrrm. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Great.. until of course:

    1) Worm writers figure out a way to avoid them or
    2) Someone decides to use the "honeypots" to attack the network itself by flooding it with slightly different worms, making the signal to noise ratio patently obscene.

  7. Many names of god...... by Lindz · · Score: 1

    This is just rephrased terminology for a DMZ in which resides a viruschecker proxy/firewall, this is nothing checkpoint, ISA-2005 doesn't already do.

  8. Didn't we try this with Spam? by thisissilly · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So now, instead of getting spam for viagra, I get spam for v1agra, vi4gra, vyagra, viegra, etc.

    Virus writers will just add mutational code to their virius, so each instance of infection will have a unique signature.

    1. Re:Didn't we try this with Spam? by kosmicki · · Score: 1

      Already been done, the sig is the mutational code piece itself.

    2. Re:Didn't we try this with Spam? by sunwolf · · Score: 1

      What they're proposing is something different than a filter - what they're proposing is a system of honeypot computers which can be easily compromised by virii that are on the loose. So when a new one appears, it is recognized and information about it is disseminated to other computers on the network. Pretty smart, if they can actually get it to detect even radically new virii.

    3. Re:Didn't we try this with Spam? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1
      Pretty smart, if they can actually get it to detect even radically new virii.

      That if is the big problem. After all, if such a system was employed, then the #1 goal of any virus writer would be to make the virus indetectable by the honeypots. Or alternatively, the virus could actually modify the honeypots to not report that virus, or maybe even use them to spread more efficiently.
      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    4. Re:Didn't we try this with Spam? by izomiac · · Score: 1

      But if the virus modifies itself everytime it infects a computer then the signature generated by the honeypots would merely protect against the version of the virus they recieved (i.e. only one of possibly millions of variants). Additionally, if they were uninfectable and kept recieving varied copies of the virus the updating system could effectivly cause a DOS attack by sending so many updates (both bandwidth consumption as the updates are spreaded and harddrive space in storing so many signatures). A slightly better solution would be to monitor traffic and immunize specifically against anything unusual. For example, updated firewalls might block any packet on port 80 that contains "POST http:///exploit HTTP/1.".

    5. Re:Didn't we try this with Spam? by SoLO · · Score: 1

      You still get spam?

    6. Re:Didn't we try this with Spam? by giafly · · Score: 1
      I think you're mixing two things:

      1. Honeypot addresses, which are never registered to receive legitimate email, so messages that arrive are presumably spam. These are used to block the address of the sending computer, e.g by adding it to a public blocklist.

        Adding virus-senders to email blocklists is a good idea and I think it already happens.

      2. Bayesian filtering which tries to reject emails based on the words they contain. This cannot be centralised to the same degree, because it has to be individually tailored. For example much of my spam is about Web hosting or programmers wanting work, but probably other people want to receive this stuff.

        The proposal for a similar mechanism to block virusses centrally seems risky: (a) Joe-job attacks to block competitor's products, (b) script kiddies will try to get operating system code "blocked". (c) Mutational virusses.
      --
      Reduce, reuse, cycle
  9. Am I missing the point... by Jooly+Rodney · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...or is this not so different from the way anti-virus packages distribute updated signature lists? The TFA uses a lot of biological metaphors, but if you s/honeypot/anti-virus research lab/ this is pretty much the same thing everybody does already. The bit about creating faster-than-virus "wormholes" is mentioned kind of as an afterthought, when, really, it's the most important (and problematic) aspect of the whole plan.

    1. Re:Am I missing the point... by kebes · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think the reason this is interesting (as an idea anyway) is that it would be automated. Nowadays the anti-virus guys check things out, create patches, and deliver patches... so there is a spread of the immunization. Under this scheme, the signature would be automatically sent out to all computers, so people would become immunized very quickly. The cure would spread as fast as the virus, since everything is automated. But there, as far as I'm concerned is the problem. The article says:

      The real trick is to make sure that the antiviral signature travels faster through the Internet than the virus itself,

      I disagree. Sending signals to all participating computers real fast isn't such a big deal. After all, the virus has to poke around inside an infected computer, looking for data on "who to infect next." This immunization system will have a built-in table of how to efficiently route the cure. So it will be faster (or at least competitive with) the virus spreading speed. (I know, I know... virus-writers will exploit that very routing table...)

      In my estimation, the real challenge is to automate the detection. The honeypot must somehow identify what is a virus and what is not (and do it quickly to be at all effective!). Sometimes this will be easy (the honeypot may have a store of thousands of files that it never touches, and if any one of them becomes modified, it must have been a virus trying to replicate itself, etc.)... other times, it may be darn difficult for a machine to tell it has become infected. After all, the whole point of a virus is that it does something unexpected (exploits a bug that was not known to exist). So determining that a virus is operating is hard.

      I also see false positives being a major concern. If the honeypot starts issuing signatures for legitimate net traffic, then the system becomes worse than useless. Just my opinion. I'm no expert.

    2. Re:Am I missing the point... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You state:
      I think the reason this is interesting (as an idea anyway) is that it would be automated. Nowadays the anti-virus guys check things out, create patches, and deliver patches... so there is a spread of the immunization. Under this scheme, the signature would be automatically sent out to all computers, so people would become immunized very quickly.

      I happen to know, that at least the major players in anti-virus have 90% of all defs generated through a automated system. Then only after that a human verifies the defs, signs the def and then allows the auto deployment system to send the defs out to the end user.
      No matter how good of a automated system you have, you still need a human to validate a def to assure that it will not report false postives or break other defs already generated.

    3. Re:Am I missing the point... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Automated - honeypots
      this web page is based on that concept.
      https://analyzer.symantec.com/default.asp

    4. Re:Am I missing the point... by Deliveranc3 · · Score: 1

      Oh noes figuring out what is teh virus!

      It it runs from e-mail or pokes it's head in through a port and edits code on my machine to start itself IT'S A VIRUS

      If you are worried it might catch spyware then you are too right wing (You can make money from it and it's not illegal!) to live, proceed accordingly.

    5. Re:Am I missing the point... by porneL · · Score: 1

      I'd bundle few critical Windows DLLs with my virus. I'd love to see automatic immunization patch created for that!

  10. Why not do this with the human body? by PIPBoy3000 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I always wondered if the future of human defense against viruses was similar. Use "honeypots" with human-like susceptibility (genetically modified pigs or something). Once their immune systems start figuring out what virus is attacking, take a part of the virus DNA and post the code for the world to see.

    Individuals at home would have their DNA sequencers crank out a batch and they'd then inoculate themselves, prepping their immune system for the real virus.

    This is all future stuff, of course. It could also be prone to problems, such as someone hacking into the system and posting a DNA sequence that does bad things to people. Shucks, the autism/vaccine scares already show people's fear of such things. Might make for a good story, though.

    1. Re:Why not do this with the human body? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
      You're just describing automized immunization, aren't you? In any case, one answer to why this wouldn't be so useful is found in the post above:

      Virus writers will just add mutational code to their virius, so each instance of infection will have a unique signature.

      You can't effectively immunize against HIV, for example, because it's always changing.

    2. Re:Why not do this with the human body? by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 1

      You can't effectively immunize against HIV, for example, because it's always changing.
      Tell that to the crocodile's immune system.

      Plus, even the HIV virus has a weakness. Block the cell-attaching mechanism, and you've blocked HIV.

    3. Re:Why not do this with the human body? by Puf_Almighty · · Score: 0

      I don't think this would work. Humans are susceptible to viruses, A) because the virus adsorbs to and infects certain cells in their body, and B) because of behaviors that put them in contact with the virus.
      For instance, if you go to India and get Cholera in the yearly cholera-go-round, it requires both that Cholera successfully reverse the osmolarity of your intestines, and that you dip your toe in the poopy Ganges (or some other reservoir of watery cholera diarrhea). If you time travel back to the 1920s and get Smallpox, it's because A) smallpox is lysing skin cells wherever it falls, and B) you let somebody infected with smallpox breathe on you, and so the airborne pathogen got inside your windpipe.

      So the reason that these honeypots work to cull Spam mail, for instance, or perhaps viruses, is because they're effectively out there dipping their toes in the poopy Ganges that is the internet. They're behavior-wise exposing themselves to pathogens.

      But if you had biological honeypots (say, a little modified pig strapped to a pipe that scientists occasionally tested), where would you place them? Certainly in known sources of the virus, to perhaps catch new mutations, but this wouldn't really give you any way to catch fresh new ones, nor a way to differentiate new ones from old ones. If you wanted to catch new ones, you'd have to have the honeypot duplicating all the unsafe, pathogen-risking behaviors that humans do.
      And who wants to spend time talking to a pig-fetus strapped to a pipe?

    4. Re:Why not do this with the human body? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing quite THAT futuristic, but passive immunization is somewhat akin: instead of injecting a weakened virus/bacteria, the antibodies are injected.

    5. Re:Why not do this with the human body? by PsiPsiStar · · Score: 1

      You can't effectively immunize against HIV, for example, because it's always changing.

      True, but HIV does respond well to chemotherapy as do most highly mutagenic viruses. If HIV didn't have a resivoir somewhere in the body it could probably be wiped out by chemotherapy.

      Only the coat changes. The portion of DNA which codes for reverse transcriptase changes rapidly.

      Frankly, I don't understand how they can use anything except PCR to test for the presence of HIV. A Western Blot test is often used, I know, but that seems like it would have a hideously high false negative rate, even if it was adjusted to have a high false positive rate with a false positive followed up with a DNA test.

      Anyone care to enlighten me?

      --

      ___
      It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
  11. What's new? by Kelson · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I maintain mail servers with some honeypot addresses. Incoming mail is not only used to train our own filters, but reported to other services like Razor. The whole thing about getting the signatures to travel faster than the worm is easy if you already know where you're sending the data (the worm either has to do scans or pick destinations at random).

    Is the novelty

    1. Using this technique for viruses?
    2. Using a dedicated honeynet?

    1. Re:What's new? by md27 · · Score: 1

      This might be true for SPAM, but it's not for worms especially if the worm has a pre-scanned hit list. However even without one, a UDP worm like Slammer, will beat you every time. No TCP setup time + not caring what the response is = Speed of light propigation speed. Lets see you beat that :)

  12. 1+1=11 by glaswegian · · Score: 5, Insightful
    For 'roughly 200 million computers ... [with] just 800,000 [(0.004%)] of them acting as honeypots [it] would restrict a viral outbreak to 2,000 machines.'

    I make it 0.4% ...

    1. Re:1+1=11 by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 3, Funny

      It's definitely 0.4%. You are correct and the math in the article is incorrect.

      You get a gold star.

      --

      ---
      ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
    2. Re:1+1=11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      not everyone can be genaeious enuff to changed disimals into persentages!

    3. Re:1+1=11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      TFA in fact explicitly says "0.4%".

      Succinct proof that Zonk can neither read nor do math.

      He needs to work on his dupe-posting though if he wants to catch up to the likes of CmdrTaco.

    4. Re:1+1=11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't blame Zonk - he probably had this clown for a math teacher.

    5. Re:1+1=11 by surprise_audit · · Score: 1
      From the article:

      There are roughly 200 million computers in the United States; just 800,000 of them acting as honeypots would restrict a viral outbreak to 2,000 machines.

      "And as the network grows, the same proportion of honeypots, around 0.4%, gives you even better protection," says Shir. He and his team present their proposal in this month's edition of Nature Physics.

      The summary is wrong, the article is correct...

  13. i got it! by ajdowntown · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Ok, I think i figured it out!

    If I find out a way to infect the singal the honeypots are sending out, then I can infect even more people, because the people relying on the honeypot machines won't be running anti-virus programs themselves.

    Hmm, that would be fun!

    1. Re:i got it! by TubeSteak · · Score: 1
      SandBox anyone? Run your "honeypot" as a virtual PC session?
      Vmware perhaps? Honeypotting with VMware - basics
      Summary


      VMware is an invaluable tool for investigators wishing to deploy honeypots for research purposed, or as early warning devices. But like most complex tools it can end up creating a lot of unneeded work, or even maiming your foot if you are not careful. Fortunately VMware is relatively straightforward to use, and there are a number of simple techniques that will make life much easier when performing a forensic analysis of a honeypot running under VMware.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
  14. If you could make this system overreact... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...it would be like if the internet had peanut allergies and malicious code kissed it after eating Reeses Cups.

  15. I'm pretty sure by TubeSteak · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I'm pretty sure that ALL the major anti-virus vendors already have honeypots sitting around. That's in addition to the virii nabbed by heuristics on desktop computers & submitted to the anti-virus companies.

    However, I'm willing to give these guys a fair shake. No matter what anyone has to say about their politics, the Israelis definitely know how to do high-tech.

    From TFA:
    "All the ingredients are already there, or could be worked out in a short time," Vespigiani says. He says that some company intranets already run programs that automatically detect the arrival of a new virus, and the architecture of the Internet is sufficiently well understood to position the honeypot computers strategically.
    ...
    "Shir does not have any plans to commercialize the idea. He hopes that people will realize the scheme in an open-source project, freely available to all computer users who want to get involved. But even if a company takes the idea and makes it happen, we'd all have a better defence against viruses," he says."
    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
    1. Re:I'm pretty sure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty sure that ALL the major anti-virus vendors already have honeypots sitting around.

      What for? I'm pretty sure that they write the virus themselves! :p

  16. That's cool! by TheOtherAgentM · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Can this also keep me from receiving the same link to flash cartoons a hundred times from my friends?

    1. Re:That's cool! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ooops. Sorry. That was me. I didn't realize all 100 of those addresses in the CC were yours. Looks like we both only have one friend. :-(

  17. Do you guys know the meaning of EDITOR? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How in the hell does 0.4% get "interpreted" into "[(0.004%)]?"

    Goddamn, I am dumb, and even I caught that error without having to bust out a calculator...

    From TFA:

    ""And as the network grows, the same proportion of honeypots, around 0.4%, gives you even better protection," says Shir. He and his team present their proposal in this month's edition of Nature Physics1."

  18. Load Of Dung by Spinlock_1977 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I like the magic part where this incredibly advanced piece of software figures out that the machine has been infected. It's so smart, in fact, it can figure out what viral signature can uniquely identify it.

    Ya know, if ya had some code that could reliably identify virii without signatures, wouldn't we all be running *that* on all our desktops?

    --
    - The Kessel run is for nerf herders. I can circumnavigate the entire Central Finite Curve in a lot less than 12 parse
    1. Re:Load Of Dung by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Presumably the honey pot machines spend all their time looking to see if anything changes. Not being a general purpose computer _any_ change is a potential virus.

      This is much harder to do on a system where the geek is constantly downloading the latest pr0n viewers.

    2. Re:Load Of Dung by Spinlock_1977 · · Score: 1

      The key here is *reliable* virii detection. Idle honeypot or not, I say you can't reliably tell the machine is infected, hence the whole concept is flawed. There is no magic.

      --
      - The Kessel run is for nerf herders. I can circumnavigate the entire Central Finite Curve in a lot less than 12 parse
    3. Re:Load Of Dung by binarybum · · Score: 1

      ot being a general purpose computer _any_ change is a potential virus

            that assumes a non-windows operating system, and investing in this kind of setup for a non-windows network is probably only worth the expense in a select few situations.

      --
      ôó
    4. Re:Load Of Dung by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1

      The key here is *reliable* virii detection. Idle honeypot or not, I say you can't reliably tell the machine is infected, hence the whole concept is flawed. There is no magic.

      There is magic tinkerbell.
      It is called virtualization.
      Virtualize the honeypot and then watch his filesystem from "outside" - any unexpected writes will indicate infection. That should reliably catch all viruses that are intended to survive a reboot. Viruses that don't survive reboots aren't likely to be a problem.

    5. Re:Load Of Dung by Spinlock_1977 · · Score: 1

      You're missing part of the "reliable" equation. Both false positives *and* false negatives will ruin the proposed automatic system. Stick an arse-of-the-recording-world SONY disc in the honeypot and and watch desktop computers around the globe violently expel their SONY disks, decapitating nearby music workers. That's the (admittedly extreme) result of a false positive.

      I said it, and I'll say it again with emphasis: This entire premise if fundamentally flawed.

      Oh, and viruses that don't survive reboots will do just fine very soon. Microsoft's just-announce new feature in Windows Vista will allow you to patch most of the thing without rebooting. "No reboots" - that's the target. Every heard of a floating casino? Floating botnets are next.

      The tinkling you're hearing isn't me - maybe you just peed yourself? ;-)

      --
      - The Kessel run is for nerf herders. I can circumnavigate the entire Central Finite Curve in a lot less than 12 parse
    6. Re:Load Of Dung by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not analyze the output?

      If the output is changed from whatever the standard is you know there's an infection and now you can start looking for changes in the software.

      This won't protect against targeted trojans and the like, but I don't see how it doesn't detects if the machine is infected by a rapidly spreading worm.

    7. Re:Load Of Dung by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Load Of Dung

      I just love it how you can label someone's work, work you have obviously not even read, let alone understood, a "load of dung" because of your own incredibly ignorant idea of state of the art virus detection techniques.

      I like the magic part where this incredibly advanced piece of software figures out that the machine has been infected.

      Yeah, I like that too. Oh, you were being sarcastic? Then fuck you, because you have no idea what you're talking about. It's not magic: there are several automated techniques that can do this rather well. Next time, before you heap scorn on the work of someone who's obviously much more knowledgeable than you in his field, you might want to take a minute or two to understand his position. Most of the time, he's not just making shit up.

      Ya know, if ya had some code that could reliably identify virii without signatures, wouldn't we all be running *that* on all our desktops?

      No, we wouldn't. Because there are several problems with such techniques. Security is always a trade off, and no home user would be willing to accept trade offs needed for this to work on their computers. For one thing, things would slow down by orders of magnitude.

      I could give you references if you wanted to read up on the matter to understand how these techniques work, but I gather it would just be a waste of time. You were just interested in providing your personal little knee-jerk reaction to get some cheap karma but people just as ignorant as you, not in actually understand any of this.

      BTW, using "ya" instead of "you" makes you look like an idiot.

    8. Re:Load Of Dung by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The tinkling you're hearing isn't me - maybe you just peed yourself? ;-)

      You can't write a single comment without spewing out some hateful third grader insult, can you?

      People like you make me sad. I hope you had a long, awful life.

    9. Re:Load Of Dung by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1

      Both false positives *and* false negatives will ruin the proposed automatic system.

      Funny, because that is false.

      Known expected behaviour is easy to control in a dedicated honeypot, and thus easy to filter out leaving only unexpected behaviour as a very reliable indicator of infection.

      Microsoft's just-announce new feature in Windows Vista will allow you to patch most of the thing without rebooting. "No reboots"

      You miss the point. If rebooting makes the virus go away, then it is easy to remove. Home users which make up the vaaaaaaaaaast majority of botnet members can be, and usually are powered down frequently. The whole no-reboots move on MS's part is for servers which will never be a major source of botnets because, at the very minimum, there aren't enough of them.

  19. Actually it's kind of already being done... by SlashThat · · Score: 1

    It's difficult to do on global scale, because there's no one to pay for it. And you can't force every internet user in the world to install the "sentinel program". Another problem, it's difficult to automatically identify viruses. But the antivirus companies do set honeypots, identify viruses and send updates to their users. So the idea is not new, it's just realized in a way that IS possible today.

    --
    1's and 0's should be free.
  20. Let me get this straight... by Hershmire · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You want to a create a network of machines that are vulnerable to viruses/worms/other baddies, provide a full index of these computers and their addresses on a huge number of central servers, and then you want to deliberately expose those central servers to malacious code?

    Is that what I'm reading? If that's so, then count me out. I can't take care of my own, thankyouverymuch.

    --
    if(!toilet_paper) roll.replace(new roll); //Stupid roommates.
  21. Avoid the computers? by quickbasicguru · · Score: 1

    What would happen if the viruses become smarter and avoid the honeypot computers?

    1. Re:Avoid the computers? by Jotii · · Score: 2, Funny

      I guess they the honeypots wouldn't catch them. It's just a guess, though.

      --
      [sig]
  22. Replace virus/worm with humans by future+assassin · · Score: 0, Redundant

    and welcome to the Matrix.

    --
    by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
  23. Inspiring display of arithmatic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let's see:
    800,000 / 200,000,000

    That's 0.004 or 0.4%

    Certainly not 0.004%

    100 times more expensive.

    1. Re:Inspiring display of arithmatic by ggambett · · Score: 1

      And you've made an inspiring display of "spalling" :)

  24. OR... by Anti-Trend · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...we could just not use operating systems which have abysmal security. You know, the one that attracts malware in the same way a magnet attracts iron ore. Yeah, you're right, that's crazy talk.

    --
    Working in a DevOps shop is like playing in a band made up entirely of keytarists.
    1. Re:OR... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We could remember that there are stupid people in the world.

  25. Already In Place by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Symantec, at least, already has a network like this in place and it has been in place for several years. I believe other companies do as well.

    1. Re:Already In Place by kd3bj · · Score: 1

      Did any of them get infected with the Sony rootkit, I wonder?

  26. The Network is the Honey by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why do they need dedicated honeypots? Why not just include software in SMTP servers that lets them notify each other when they identify a virus locally? An SMTP operator could subscribe to several dozen peers, in a network of trust. When their own threshold of peers reporting the same virus is reached, they've got a hit.

    Maybe this is a good application for the Usenet tech, to flood the trust networks with info rapidly, reliably, and without a centralized authority that itself can be attacked or otherwise compromised. Most of this tech already exists. We don't need 800K new servers that do nothing else, when we've got even more that also serve mail. Maybe the researchers are setting up a spinoff security network. But their research actually points to a better system than relying on them for more than the starting point.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:The Network is the Honey by BlueArcus · · Score: 1

      Because not all infections propagate in a way that requires an increase in mail traffic.

      Much intrusion is the result of loopholes in user applications or system software, and in these situations you need to be able to detect a virus signatures in a huge volume of transmitted data, or in machine storage.

      Packet sniffing techniques can't help either. It's down to bad OS and application code.

      Mike

      --
      Think today's great? Should've been here *yesterday*.
    2. Re:The Network is the Honey by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      So why does the "virus network" require separate honeypots? Why can't the existing servers detect the viruses the same way the honeypots would, and notify each other?

      --

      --
      make install -not war

  27. This isn't a new or different idea at all by postbigbang · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There are already appliance makers that do this very thing: identify malware and viruses, and signal the others, usually in the guise of spam control appliances.

    Webs of early notifiers is also not a new idea; look at the honeypot networks that are on the web, the honeypot project, and so on.

    The containment cited is theoretical, subject to the ability to correctly identify behavior, and doesn't prevent users from clicking on URLs that have malware, or filter signatures that have fast breakout behavior.

    And so, the merit of the Nature article is in question. It's just a PR release in disguise.

    --
    ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
  28. Vigilante by Badly+Configured · · Score: 1

    Microsoft and University of Cambridge have been working on the same kind of thing for a while. There was a paper at the SOSP 2005 conference.

    1. Re:Vigilante by Sangui5 · · Score: 1

      Yep, the story article is of rather low quality. As I state in my earlier post, they neglect quite a bit of good CS work, and instead cite such CS heavyweights as "Physical Review E".

      Except for Yuval Shavitt the authors barely even register in DBLP (a database of CS bibliographies). Not big players in the CS community, and obviously not fully aware of the existing work.

    2. Re:Vigilante by johnjaydk · · Score: 1
      The existing approach was proposed by Microsoft Research and is called Vigilante. They find that it is possible to quickly detect worms automatically, construct automatic filters for just the worm and not benign traffic, and distribute it quickly to vulnerable hosts in a secure, non-forgeable way.

      Can anybody explain to me why they haven't put this into action ? They would be hailed as saviours of the (electonic) planet. Are there still a 'few kinks' to be ironed out or are we into tinfoil-hat-area ?

      --
      TCAP-Abort
  29. You have a bad case of... by ackthpt · · Score: 2, Funny
    You have a bad case of Windows XP security.

    take two OSS tablets (not applicable in France) and call me in the morning

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    1. Re:You have a bad case of... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Brian: Good one, Peter. Did you stay up all night writing that one?

      Peter: No, I got to bed about 2:00, 2:30.

  30. Why honeypots? Use DShield! by jgaynor · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is a fine idea, and one that could be done at little cost save for the 'global honeypot network' part. Why not use info from an existing distributed log source like Dshield?

  31. Who watches the watchers? by David+Hume · · Score: 1
    And you can't force every internet user in the world to install the "sentinel program".
    You wouldn't be able to force me. After all, "Who Watches the Watchers?

    I don't want to be subject to an "automatic immunity" system because I don't want to lose control of my computer, internet connectivity and communication. I can imagine a "sentinel program" being told to exclude or dump, without warning, my choice or even my knowledge, dangerous packets containing strings like "ACLU," "EFF," "Vote for [fill in]," "PGP," ".torrent," "[name of allegedly copyrighted file]," etc.
  32. Been there done that by birdshooter · · Score: 1

    Brightmail's anti-spam system (Brightmail was acquired by Symantec) does just that. And has been doing so for about 5 years. It has a similar honeypot system, and was, as an example, the first vendor to trap and prevent the "I Love You" virus. I believe they already have the patents on this.

  33. IBM's immunity system.. by larrypatrickmaloney · · Score: 1

    This is nothing new. IBM has a whitepaper discussing this. It's called an "Immunity system". Essentially a cluster of machines are dedicated to automatically and manually process potential candidates for Viruses, and then creates and propigates the signiture file for the virus.

    no big deal.

    1. Re:IBM's immunity system.. by bprime · · Score: 1

      It IS a big deal; it relies on advanced heuristics that are far beyond anything that's currently on the market.

  34. Wow... by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 2, Interesting

    it just amazed me. This is nothing but a replication of the natural immune system... where the honeypots are the lymphatic ganglions, and the signatures are the antibodies.

    I'd like to see how this results... whatever the outcome, it's an interesting experiment.

    1. Re:Wow... by SHP · · Score: 0

      Except in real life people don't exchange anti-bodies. This proposal is like asking me stick an intravenous in my arm to receive antibody updates from a *trusted* (sic) 3rd party.

      In the real world of the internet, this concept would never pass review of any competent security team at major organizations.

    2. Re:Wow... by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      So.. it's like a vaccination then?

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    3. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More similar to getting plasma from a horse to treat black widow bites.

    4. Re:Wow... by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      What about allergic reactions?

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    5. Re:Wow... by rixkix · · Score: 1

      A user that freaks out and shuts down his system?

  35. Immune systems are not quite as simple as that by stinky+wizzleteats · · Score: 1

    Anyone care to imagine what 800,000 computers in the Internet equivalent of anaphylactic shock would look like?

  36. Not really... by n0dalus · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I'm sure this system would work if the honeypots were evenly distributed among IP blocks but they simply can't be (huge chunks of the IPv4 address space are already taken). A worm might infect hundreds of thousands of computers before ever hitting one of the honeypots. Even if the honeypot gets it and sends it to an AV company, and they issue an immediate update, it takes hours for everyone to get updated. History's most damaging worms were able to infect millions of computers within this kind of timeframe.

    Also, what if someone manages to find one of these honeypots and sends an exploit with a payload containing a competitors software signature? Would the AV company start issuing immediate updates? What kinds of systems are in place for preventing this?

    1. Re:Not really... by kebes · · Score: 1

      I partially agree. It's entirely possible the virus infects lots and lots of computers before hitting a honeypot. However, part of the idea here is that once a honeypot gets infected, the signature is quickly spread all over the place. Under this system, not just the AV companies find out about it, but it spreads directly to all servers and even end-users quickly. So, for instance, some servers/routers/ISPs could, once they receive a new signature, simply block traffic with said signature. For instance, if email servers quickly got the new signatures, then this blocks that avenue of spreading (even if end-users have not received the signature yet).

      The fast spreading of viruses is due to the exponential connectivity of the net. The idea with this system is to throw up roadblocks at the same rate (the signature spreads using the same exponential network). Even though viruses will still infect some people, the damage (in many cases) is lessened because the signature propagates quickly too. Not everyone has to be protected for the spread to be greatly slowed.

      But you're right that it's not simple, and there is no simple solution. Also, obviously virus-writers will try to exploit this system. Why not write a virus that includes signatures of legitamite traffic? Why not exploit the system to greatly increase web traffic (and thereby create a denial-of-service attack)? There will be many problems to be addressed... but still the idea has merit.

  37. This isn't a very good paper. by Sangui5 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I didn't know that Nature was such a high end CS publication. At SOSP this year Vigilante (http://research.microsoft.com/~manuelc/MS/Vigilan teSOSP.pdf) was presented--a much more complete paper in a more salient venue.

    The citations list at the end of the Nature paper also is missing a large body of relevant work. Check the citations list of the Vigilante paper for details--50 references most of which are missing from the Nature pub. Also, the publications the Nature paper cites are mixed--some are good (like http://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/~nweaver/containment/ ), but I don't think the editors of "Physical Review Letters" (a physics journal) are really up to speed on the latest in computer security research. Indeed, most of the works they cite are either from physics journals, Nature, or Science.

    The analysis is quite math heavy, and makes some unrealistic assumptions (i.e. worms only spread to their neighbors). In the end, they "show" that it is theoretically possible to stop worms with a side-channel network. Vigilante, on the other hand, has an implementation of a vaccination system, and simulation results run against Blaster, Slammer, and Code Red. Now, which is more convincing to you?

    1. Re:This isn't a very good paper. by Animats · · Score: 1

      Nature is terrible at selecting computer science papers. They have a good reputation in the life sciences, but quite a number of very weak CS papers have made it into Nature.

  38. So.... Amway builds a DDOS network? by Rob+Cebollero · · Score: 1

    Figure out where the honeypots are (i.e. who sends the new virus descriptions first?), then spam them with tons of small variants of various worm and virus code, which they happily amplify and flood the pipes of their whole downline tree. This is supposed to be a good idea?

  39. honeypot on secure network? by Eric+Smith · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The honeypot computers would reside in a secure, dedicated network.
    Doesn't that defeat the purpose? Don't they need to be on an insecure network to collect samples of the malware?
    1. Re:honeypot on secure network? by darkmeridian · · Score: 1

      I think (and hope) they mean secured so that the honeypot computers will not spread the infection. The researchers probably do not want to stick 800,000 zombies onto the Internet. How they would achieve this one-wayness is beyond me, but that's what I think they mean.

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
    2. Re:honeypot on secure network? by Eric+Smith · · Score: 1
      I suppose that could be as simple as putting them behind a firewall that allows all incoming connections, but disallows all outgoing connections.

      That's just about the opposite of what I normally think of as a "secure network".

      That also makes their infection detection simpler; if the computer attempts to make any outbound connections, it's infected. But malware that has a long incubation period wouldn't be detected promptly, so other methods must be used as well.

  40. Secure like a roach motel... by Burning1 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Secure like a roach motel: Viruses check in, but they don't check out.

  41. Judgement Day. by FrankieBoy · · Score: 1

    In Terminator 3 isn't this how SkyNet became sentient and decided that humans suck and launched it's missles? Hmmm...

  42. Begun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the virus war has.

  43. Vigilante by saikatguha266 · · Score: 2, Informative

    The article in the story doesn't seem to mention existing work in the same area. This approach has already be proposed, evaluated and peer-reviewed in the top networking conference (SIGCOMM'04) [1] and the top Operating System's conference (SOSP'05) [2]. The existing approach was proposed by Microsoft Research and is called Vigilante.

    They find that it is possible to quickly detect worms automatically, construct automatic filters for just the worm and not benign traffic, and distribute it quickly to vulnerable hosts in a secure, non-forgeable way.

    [1] http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1095809.1095 824
    [2] http://research.microsoft.com/research/pubs/view.a spx?type=Publication&id=1483

  44. HIV always changes, but it's still HIV by PIPBoy3000 · · Score: 1

    Remember that while HIV does admittedly mutate, as do many other viruses, but there seem to be key portions that cannot change without essentially breaking the virus' core functionality.

    The trick is to find those key portions and use them in your vaccine.

    1. Re:HIV always changes, but it's still HIV by PsiPsiStar · · Score: 1

      True, but if I were a virus writer I'd include some code from MS Word in my virus. Then perhaps the AV program would attack software on a person's computer.

      --

      ___
      It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
  45. nothing new by ezelkow1 · · Score: 2, Informative

    After attending a talk given by Niels Provos, creator of Honeyd, he showed this exact thing 3 months ago. He setup multiple honeyd nets all showing the same possible exploit holes to try and capture spyware and virii and then issue patches if these holes were found on the rest of the system and showed that with the right amount of machines it can be done effectively. These guys seem to just be copying his research verbatim

    1. Re:nothing new by ezelkow1 · · Score: 1

      As a side note, here is his research into worms with honeyd : http://www.honeyd.org/worms.php published in 2004

  46. Walk without rythm... by Dragoonmac · · Score: 1

    I think the entire premise this is built on is flawed, It still requires to be infected before the virus/worm can be identified. What someone needs to do is create a program that'll guess at what the next viruses'll do, then protect in advance. Or better yet, make it so that people can't get viruses, surely a computer can detect the rudimentary social engineering used by Malware authors. Maybe a program that can forecast what another program'll do, and then, if it's harmful, prevent the execution thereof. Call it "Walk Without Rythm" because you won't attract a worm.

    --
    Shots: A Populist Parable
    1. Re:Walk without rythm... by Muad+Dweeb · · Score: 1

      ...as long as we can change the term "honeypot" to "thumper", I'm all for it.

  47. It is better to receive than it is to give. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One would have thought that "the signal" was that these traps started sending rather than just receiving.

    What would it take for any large firm to dedicate one of their machines to receive all the dubious crap the company has to handle? A machine that ordinarily never sends.

    I know, I know; I will go and read the effing article.

  48. Potential abuse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could you deliberately create a virus that has the same signature as a common program or part of the OS? If so, then you feed that virus to the honeypot, the notification goes out, and the friendly software on all the local computers with the same signature gets disabled by antivirus software.

    They need to prove that this can't be done before a system like this is created.

  49. Not a load of dung, just expensive by Sangui5 · · Score: 4, Informative

    There are a lot of techniques to do automatic identification of viruses, the problem is that they are too expensive for everyday use--your programs run 40x slower or worse. Below is a selection (small and randomly generated) of related work.

    Mostly, you need to do extensive monitoring of what your program is doing, and look for out-of-bound writes (e.g. buffer overflows/stack smashing), or do taint analysis (that is, don't execute or make "important" decisions based on data "tainted" from an untrusted source). But this requires performing many anaysis operations for every "real" operation, so it isn't feasible to do everywhere.

    Just google the titles for electronic copies.

    Kreibich, C., and Crowcroft, J. Honeycomb - creating intrusion detection signatures using honeypots. In HotNets (Nov. 2003).

    Kim, H., and Karp, B. Autograph: Toward automated, distributed worm signature detection. In USENIX Security Symposium (Aug. 2004).

    Zou, C. C., Gao, L., Gong, W., and Towsley, D. Monitoring and early warning for internet worms. In ACM CCS (Oct. 2003).

    Wilander, J., and Kamkar, M. A comparison of publicly available tools for dynamic buffer overflow prevention. In NDSS (Feb. 2003).

    Newsome, J., and Song, D. Dynamic taint analysis: Automatic detection and generation of software exploit attacks. In NDSS (Feb. 2005).

    1. Re:Not a load of dung, just expensive by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      i'd rather not be analyzing anyone's taint

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    2. Re:Not a load of dung, just expensive by Spinlock_1977 · · Score: 1

      Don't think so. I'm not gonna wade through everyone else's attempts to build behavior-based detection algorithms and other assorted gifts to mankind to find the inevitable holes in each.

      You can't get 100% accuracy so you'll generate false positives or false negatives. This demands a human be in the loop or our "magic" sensor spews occassional garbage and knocks the lights out somewhere.

      I said it, and I'll say it again: The entire premise is flawed.

      --
      - The Kessel run is for nerf herders. I can circumnavigate the entire Central Finite Curve in a lot less than 12 parse
    3. Re:Not a load of dung, just expensive by Sangui5 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895 "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible."

      The difference here is that Lord Kelvin said it before it had been done.

      The problem, boiled down to its smallest, is to find inputs to the computer which cause it to emit bad outputs (e.g. cause it to try to spread the worm). We control the honeypot, so we can strictly classify what good outputs are (generally nothing, or some small set of fixed responses)--everything else is therefore bad. Any message to the honeypot, therefore, can be easily classified into causing a bad output or not.

      If our signatures are composed of the inputs (in their entirety) which cause bad outputs, there can be no false positives--if that input is fed into the same system, it will spread the worm. Hosts recieving the signature can verify this by testing the signature in a virtual machine. "Gee, I fed it into my machine, and it started spewing traffic all over the place! Guess that really is a worm."

      This is less than ideal for polymorphic worms (because you only get one signature), but polymorphic worms are slower than non-polymorphic ones, so they aren't as much of a threat (there are techniques for detecting polymorphic worms but they have non-zero (but quite small) false-positive rates). Also, worms which don't cause the honeypot to output anything for a long time can also slip by with false negatives. But if the worm takes a long time to spread itself, then it is, by definition, NOT a fast-spreading worm, and NOT the target of an automatic immune system.

      Most work makes a trade off between a small false positive rate to faster/more powerful detection--here, false positives are measured in the 1 to a billion, or even lower. They also shortcut the detection some--you just need to be running code that wasn't on the machine to start with. Unless your web server is in the habit of accepting code from strangers to run, this is a surefire indication of a bad input.

      Of course, these improvements aren't necessary to show that it is possible to have zero-false-positive detection; the scheme I describe above will work. Everything else is tradeoffs to make it faster, more sensitive, etc.

      If you don't want to "wade" through lots of work, try just one: Vigilante, Unlike the paper from the story, Vigilante is actually implemented, and has been tested on simulated worm outbreaks using real worms. It also covers the current art of the field.

    4. Re:Not a load of dung, just expensive by Spinlock_1977 · · Score: 1

      Well, move the boundaries all you want - if you're explicitly going after worms that directly transmit something, you'll likely detect worms that directly transmit something. Congratulations, you've detected one sub-type of infection. And the most common one. Coulda done that in VB.

      Extensive web references notwithstanding, your approach to the matter seems more intellectual than practical. Get your nose out of the Web References Are Us web site and tell us how such a system would really work with today's Windows and today's internet.

      I said it, and I'll say it again: The premise is fundamentally flawed.

      --
      - The Kessel run is for nerf herders. I can circumnavigate the entire Central Finite Curve in a lot less than 12 parse
    5. Re:Not a load of dung, just expensive by Sangui5 · · Score: 1

      Read this. Tested against Blaster, Slammer, and Code Red. It gives specifics of what signitures it generated, how fast they were generated, how fast they were distributed, and how well the infection was contained in their simulated outbreaks. Also includes an analysis of how it would work if the worm tried to DOS the detection system itself.

      If you insist on a dead tree copy, well, the printed proceedings are generally only distributed at the conference itself, which is already past, and you can't have mine. Maybe you can buy them from the ACM somehow, since they organize SOSP. I'd assume a link to the PDF posted by the authors would be the most useful way to point you at work which does what you want.

      As for moving the boundaries, the story talks about stopping a fast-spreading internet worm. I'm wasn't away that we were discussing something else.

      You can detect most other worms when they try to write to the disk to a file they oughtn't (again, the honeypot server is yours so you KNOW where it should be writing, e.g. the log files and nowhere else), or if it executes code that it shouldn't. Since it is on a VM, it can't slip writes past you, because your disk is emulated. If you intercept every instruction fetch (which is what makes this slow), you can verify that the executable bits you are fetching match the ones that you started with. Or use the NX bits. Since I totally "own" the VM, you can only hide by not doing anything. And if you don't do anything, then how do you expect to spread?

    6. Re:Not a load of dung, just expensive by Spinlock_1977 · · Score: 1

      Your education in security will not be at my expense. The fact that a detector detected a worm that was not designed to evade the detector is nice, and likely the lowest of publicizable hurdles. It said "ma-ma', how nice.

      This is an arms war and both sides are in motion. The proposed mechanism can be overcome by so many means (and combined means) it's laughable. This is lesson 1 of security: Any measure can be overcome - it's a matter of time.

      Now don't argue about distributing signatures faster than the worm's velocity in the wild. If you don't recognize that is just another system that can be subverted, I won't talk to you anymore ;-)

      --
      - The Kessel run is for nerf herders. I can circumnavigate the entire Central Finite Curve in a lot less than 12 parse
    7. Re:Not a load of dung, just expensive by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 1

      Interesting. It will be cool to see how this develops. Personally, I wrote a paper (not published, for a class) analyzing this defense mechanism in peer-to-peer networks, that is, defending against worms which are aware of the overlay topology and can use it to their advantage. It came to quite different conclusions: unless the time to verify a signature is much less than the time to infect (which the Microsoft paper stated, but using strong assumptions like an 84MB virtual machine sitting around pinned to main memory on every host), the defenders usually lose. Variance is high, depending on how early in the attack a host is hit and how well-connected it is, but on average 70-80% of vulnerable machines in the overlay are infected for a reasonable set of parameters.

      This paper also accounts for a factor that the Microsoft paper doesn't: it explicitly models diversity in vulnerabilities. The conclusion is that diversity helps the defenders, but with the forwarding model that Microsoft described, it doesn't help them by much because invulnerable hosts will not forward the SCA. Forwarding it always will open the network to denial-of-service attacks, but a happy medium (that is, to flood the SCA out to some distance before verifying it) does well and additionally gives the attacker a time edge. However, even with this time edge, the attacker is at a disadvantage particularly in a low-diameter overlay such as a Chord or Pastry network.

      And, of course, this ignores the cost of implementing the defenses: every application needing protection must be instrumented, must run both on the honeypots and on the virtual machines. Honeypots need to have configurations with a distribution matching real systems, which makes them proportionally more expensive per service. Hosts must run even disabled services, or they won't be able to forward SCAs. Polymorphic worms may defeat the system anyway.

      My conclusions: it's probably easier to write more secure software in the first place than to build and depend on this defense mechanism for peer-to-peer systems. Who knows for non-peer-to-peer systems?

      --
      I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
    8. Re:Not a load of dung, just expensive by Spinlock_1977 · · Score: 1

      I had another dozen thoughts about why I believe your gentle optimism is so gravenly misplaced, and here are two: 1) Virii will evolve to avoid honeypots. If you can't detect it, you certainly can't spank it with your signature stick. How will a virus detect a honeypot? Oh a bazillion different ways. Eg. No pr0n viruses, we die. OS signature is known? We die. OS Fingerprinting reveals a VM? We die. There's no fucking end to this shit. Anything you invent will be broken. Get over it.

      2) Who the fuck built the perfect VM? When did this stunning achievement of mankind occur? Is every API in the thing proven to be 100% reliable against every possible input and machine state? And for all chipsets and bios combinations on which it runs? Will the global celebration be a day-off-work in my area of the US? Puhleeeze, I'm fucking dying laughing over here.

      Warmest regards,

      --
      - The Kessel run is for nerf herders. I can circumnavigate the entire Central Finite Curve in a lot less than 12 parse
    9. Re:Not a load of dung, just expensive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the hell is wrong with you? The man starts a intellectual conversation and you sideline it with naysaying, bad words and thinly veiled insults. Get the fuck over yourself. The process you describe has a very exact term, 'escalation', it can be applied to the battlefield or IT. However, may I make one very basic point? Just because the process of escalation is inexcapable dosen't mean we don't build a bigger and better tank or a more sophisticated attack aircraft.

      Do me a favor, Spinlock, stop trying to breathe, since you seem to think nothing is worth trying. Your sarcasm and attempts at wit are lacking to say the least, I very much doubt you are much of a security expert yourself. So shut the fuck up.

    10. Re:Not a load of dung, just expensive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, move the boundaries all you want - if you're explicitly going after worms that directly transmit something, you'll likely detect worms that directly transmit something.

      What worms, pray tell, do not transmit something? If they don't even transmit themselves, please explain to me what your definition of a worm is.

      And what were your original boundaries anyway? I'm discussing fast spreading internet worms. What are you discussing?

      Congratulations, you've detected one sub-type of infection. And the most common one. Coulda done that in VB.

      Oh you could, eh? Then why don't you? It would helps us all a great deal. You seem to swing uncontrollably between calling things undoable and trivial. Always a mark of someone who has thought out his position carefully.

      Extensive web references notwithstanding, your approach to the matter seems more intellectual than practical. Get your nose out of the Web References Are Us web site and tell us how such a system would really work with today's Windows and today's internet.

      What is your fucking problem? The parent poster is perfectly civil, and arguing carefully for his position. And you have to denigrate him in this manner? Is it so awful to be proven wrong? As already mentioned elsewhere, there are implementations out there that actually work. The Israelis already use them on many private intranets, and Microsoft has a commercial version that works just fine.

      I said it, and I'll say it again: The premise is fundamentally flawed.

      Yeah, you just can't argue for it.

    11. Re:Not a load of dung, just expensive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your education in security will not be at my expense.

      Keep the insults coming. It just puts you in an even worse light, if that is even possible. The parent poster is obviously quite knowledgeable in his field. You, on the other hand, seem to cringe everytime he mentions a technical concept or provides a reference, presumably because you have no idea what he's talking about. It's quite embarrassing to those of us who are following your little debate, frankly. I amazed, and impressed, he hasn't lashed out at you yet. Any normal person would have lost his temper and been done with you long ago.

      The proposed mechanism can be overcome by so many means (and combined means) it's laughable.

      It's telling, however, that you have yet to provide an example of a single one. It's also telling that you earlier though you could write a workable system for the most common sub-type of worms (the kind, incidentally, normally just referred to as "worms").

      This is lesson 1 of security: Any measure can be overcome - it's a matter of time.

      That's just some crap Slashdot meme like everything else you've been saying. Perfect security is possible given certain assumptions. It's possible to prove particular systems as being perfectly secure. However, I grant that in the real world things are often messy. That doesn't mean this system is worthless. Or that it can be overcome in so many ways that "it's laughable."

      Your stupidity seems to be toppled only by your arrogance. No, wait, it's toppled by your ignorance as well.

    12. Re:Not a load of dung, just expensive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Puhleeeze, I'm fucking dying laughing over here.

      Oh, please, please do! I think I speak for most readers of your gems of insight when I say so.

    13. Re:Not a load of dung, just expensive by Spinlock_1977 · · Score: 1

      Yeah you're right - escalation is much better term to describe the mechanism under scruntiny. Build away, but let's not tout it as "the solution", ok? Some of these white-paper-brainiacs think their darling solution is going to solve the world's problem once and for all and they're dead wrong. If it takes a bitch-slap with a stinky fish to wake them up, so be it.

      That said, I have no more left in me for this argument. The underlying truth has been revealed ("move along, no panacea here"), and I will silently suffer the remaining naysaying, bad words and thinly veiled insults of you and everyone else like us.

      --
      - The Kessel run is for nerf herders. I can circumnavigate the entire Central Finite Curve in a lot less than 12 parse
    14. Re:Not a load of dung, just expensive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Build away, but let's not tout it as "the solution", ok?

      Look buddy, you're the one who began mocking these people in your very first post, without any of them having touted it as that. No one said it was perfect. No one said it would last forever. Nonetheless, you started mocking them with contentless and ignorant posts right from the start. How the hell do you expect people to respond to you?

      Some of these white-paper-brainiacs think their darling solution is going to solve the world's problem once and for all and they're dead wrong.

      Oh, I'm sure you would know, wouldn't you? Judging from your previous comments in this thread, you seem to have a perfect grasp of what's going on in academia in this field. Everytime someone has brought some work up, you have replied to him saying that he's an idiot, that he should piss himself, that you're laughing your ass off, or some such puerile and assaultive retort. Provide any -- any -- argument for your position, whatever the hell it is, I have yet to see.

      If it takes a bitch-slap with a stinky fish to wake them up, so be it.

      I don't think excessive and pointless rudeness is wasking anyone up. If anything, it pisses them off. I didn't even get to this party until it was over, and even I got pissed off. Look, we both know you're an asshole and that nobody likes you, that's fine, and I'm sure you're used to it, but let's not pretend you wallow in your arrogance and rudeness because of some greater good, because that is so stupid that it's not even funny. You act the way you do because you're an ignorant jerk, not because you think people need to "wake up."

      The underlying truth has been revealed

      Just because you've said the same thing over and over 10 times that doesn't make it true. It may be true for other reasons, but you certainly haven't provided a single one.

      Just FYI, I'm not the AC you replied to. I am, however, one of the AC's who replied to your post. I just noticed that this AC had used the exact same phrasing as I did in reply to you ("What is your fucking problem?"). That two different people, completely independent of each other, would reply in this exact way to you, does it suggest anything, perhaps? Maybe, just maybe, you should reconsider how you adress people, even if its on the Internet and you feel safe and secure in momma's basement. They're people too, you know. Quite unlike you.

  50. the idea has been around by museumpeace · · Score: 1

    A Scientific American article, pointing to its similarity to the idea of biological immunity mechanisms, put forth an idea like this 4 or 5 years ago [sorry, too lazy to go look it up]. The biological parallel was that the signatures sent out by the honeypots were analagous to antibodies manufactured to help killer cells recognize foreign cells. I think the pitfalls of this idea can also be extrapolated from the biology of autoimmune diseases. The worst thing that could happen would be for a malware coder to figure out a virus whose signature would cause the "forewarned" systems to block legitimate traffic.

    --
    SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
    1. Re:the idea has been around by museumpeace · · Score: 1

      http://diuf.unifr.ch/pai/publications/2002/paper/L ei-ICMLC02.pdf offers a bibliography full of similar ideas including the sciam art [which came out in nov 97]. Do the researchers say who will pay for the honeypots and the extra-secure protocol trick by which they communicate their warnings? [no, I did not RTFA, why do you ask?]

      --
      SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
  51. A system called NetCleanse does this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Works okay but the interface isn't much to look at.

  52. Autoimmunity by janneH · · Score: 2, Insightful

    With an automatic response like that, I wonder if virus writers would learn to craft a virus that caused the sentinal program to generate a signature that removed/damaged important files (or otherwise wreak havoc) on the computers they were supposed to protect. Cause an autoimmune response if you will.

    1. Re:Autoimmunity by Sangui5 · · Score: 1

      The general way to implement such monitoring honeypots is to run them in a virtual machine. So, the virus writers cannot cause damage to anything important.

      On the other hand, the virus writers have wised up to the VM trick--there are already exploits which try to detect that they are running in VMWare and refuse to behave "normally" if they are. The solution is, of course, better VMs (and better VM detectors, and better yet VMs...).

    2. Re:Autoimmunity by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Well, the problem is that the whole purpose of this network is to remove dangerous code. So even if the honeypot systems themselves could not be compromised, the system could compromise lots of other system by it's normal operation if a legitimate code sequence errneously gets classified as harmful.

      Remember, natural autoimmune illnesses don't kill the immune system. They cause the immune system to go against other parts of the system (body) it is supposed to protect.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  53. Re:I'm pretty sure -- that they'll miss it by kd3bj · · Score: 1
    I'm pretty sure that ALL the major anti-virus vendors already have honeypots sitting around.

    I wonder if any of them are infected with the Sony rootkit?

  54. better yet... by jtgd · · Score: 1
    [with] just 800,000 [(0.004%)] of them acting as honeypots [it] would restrict a viral outbreak to 2,000 machines.'

    Everybody should add the address of at least one of the honeypot machines to their addressbook. If the virus emails itself to everyone in your addressbook, the system learns of it that much quicker.

    --
    J
  55. And this is a new idea how? by Max+Nugget · · Score: 1

    Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't sound like anything that's not already being done. Firstly, antivirus companies I'm sure run honeypot machines to help them "catch" new viruses, and then distribute them via automatic updates to their customers, more or less immediately. Antispyware works the same way, except they also use those user-contributed spyware networks, which serves the same purpose as these proposed honeypots serves (antivirus companies do this too but I don't get the impression it's their primary method of discovering new viruses).

    And proposing anything that involves 800,000 dedicated computers is certainly an instant turn-off. For that much work, the idea should do something better than reinvent the wheel.

  56. Here's an idea.... by WheelDweller · · Score: 1

    TELL MICROSOFT TO STOP LEAVING PORTS OPEN. If they were actually IN this war against viruses, instead of making money from them, it'd be a lot easier.

    Sheesh. Put on a helmet.

    --
    --- For a good time mail uce@ftc.gov
  57. Unbelievable... by coulls · · Score: 1

    Had these people followed proper research techniques they would have found a number of issues with their project. First, it has been shown in peer-reviewed publications that it is more than easy to detect and avoid so-called Internet telescopes or honeynets. Second, the entire vulnerable population of the Code Red worm, arguably the worm with the largest vulnerable population, was only about .034% of the Internet address space. So they are proposing to have as many machines implement this as there are vulnerable machines - that is a pretty tall order. Third, people have worked on automatic patch generation techniques for worms before. The problem isn't designing a system that outpaces worms and contains them, the problem is making a system that is resilient to false positives, useful even under partial deployment conditions, and can protect more hosts than just those available on the local network.

    1. Re:Unbelievable... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you give references to the peer-reviewed honeynet avoidance papers?

    2. Re:Unbelievable... by coulls · · Score: 1

      The one in particular that comes to mind is this one from Usenix '05. https://www.usenix.org/events/sec05/tech/bethencou rt/bethencourt.pdf

      Pretty much gives a technique for mapping out the location of these network telescopes or honeynets, which can later be used for avoidance.

  58. it is correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    no, it is correct.

    1. Re:it is correct by Sigl · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Only if you don't know the difference between a percent and a ratio.

    2. Re:it is correct by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      That doesn't make it correct, it just means your math sucks...

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    3. Re:it is correct by Sigl · · Score: 1

      I think you meant to reply to the parent of my post. Repost it to that one if you really want him to see it.

    4. Re:it is correct by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      No, I meant it for yours. Your parent's post said "it's correct", and your post said (implied?) that it was correct, but only if you didn't know the difference between a ratio and percentage.

      Well, not knowing the difference between a ratio and a percentage doesn't make an incorrect statement correct. It just means your math sucks.

      See what I was getting at, now?

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    5. Re:it is correct by Sigl · · Score: 1
      Well, not knowing the difference between a ratio and a percentage doesn't make an incorrect statement correct.

      By god man, the point was to make the parent question whether they understood the difference between ratios and percents. Not to prove him right with bad logic.

      But if you really want to pick apart the logic, then, if he mixed up the definitions of ratios and percentages (which is what i implied) then yes from his point of view it would make his statement correct. Of course I twisted the logic for my own purposes and maybe even a weak attempt at humor, but that doesn't make the logic wrong.

      Of course from your point of view it will always be incorrect because you actually know what a percentage is. I brought up the point of view change because I thought it would highlight the source of the problem. I went out on a limb and guessed it's not basic math. I'm sure everyone who posted so far has a firm grasp of division (at least I would hope so). Some may have even used a calculator to be extra sure. In the end the most accurate calculator or most sound logic could not save them from the real problem... a flawed understanding of a percentage.

  59. Of course, by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

    malware authors will immediately set up a network of computers to maintain a list of known honeypots so that they can be avoided while propagating. They could call it "WormGuardian", say.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  60. computer experts from Israel who are proposing a different strategy for combating fast-spreading worms and viruses

    First, you build this giant wall...

  61. Use worms to stop worms... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So all we need to do is plant the honeypot software via some worm to 800,000 computers and we will be set.

  62. How would this work exactly? by xmorg · · Score: 1

    Malicious software is usually spread via email.

    The trojan goes through your outlook contacts list and forwards the email to everyon in it. People open it and the chain continues. Contracting such a virus requires a user at a keyboard usually.

    A "honeypot" would have to contain.
      - MS outlook with Windows XP.
      - Multiple email accounts that are posted accross the net and purposfully send and receive a lot of email traffic.
      - A person or script/bot that opens every email and tries to open/run every attachment.
      - possibly a lot of spy/addware already installed.
      - playing a sony BMG CD 24/7 (*duck)

  63. Fix it for them by nickgrieve · · Score: 1

    Malicious computer viruses could be stopped in their tracks by immunity software that spreads faster than the virus itself MS fixing its fucking operating system , says a team of computer experts from all over the right thinking world.

    1. Re:Fix it for them by nickgrieve · · Score: 1

      seems the strike tag is not allowed,.. /. needs some sort of "preview" or somthing for posts... :)

  64. Looks like it could be a weak link... by Kazoo+the+Clown · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It seems to me that it would be possible for a virus writer to: 1) Identify one of the honeypot machines - there's probably a couple of ways to do that... 2) Target this honeypot machines by sending it an endless array of viruses with different signatures, thereby keeping all the systems using it for security darn busy updating their definitions -- DoS... 3) ... 4) Profit! --

  65. No need for pigs by Straker+Skunk · · Score: 1

    You could have a bunch of volunteers who simply go about their daily business, and have their blood regularly monitored in the same way. It won't give you much of an early-warning capability (by the time a volunteer gets a pathogen, many others will have it too), but it should cover the "different behaviours" issue.

    --
    iSKUNK!
  66. Ultimate DOS attack by woolio · · Score: 1

    The article's proposed idea would just make the entire world a tool for DOS attacks.

    Imagine the havoc that would result if someone told this system that the normal "/bin/bash" or "explorer.exe" was a virus... or even worse -- ntfs.sys

    Forget about worries that "the internet will go down". This would be far more destructive than any virus. (airports, banking, stock market, would all be affected)

    Side note: A while back, there was an attempt to inject malicious code into the linux kernel's repository... How do we know that M$'s Windows Update website has never been hacked? Yikes... Centralized management of automatic updates/virus defs is always a security problem...

  67. Integrate that into AV software by doublestakk · · Score: 0

    Why cant they just integrate that idea into antivirus software and not have to setup and maintain 800k machines?

  68. Best way to fight worms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Worms scan for vulnerable hosts. Simply detect this scanning behavior.

    In your network setup a huge private flat class A. Randomly distribute all your hosts in this address space.

    Now, in your router, route all the addresses that aren't valid to a single honeypot computer. This honeypot should analyze all packets coming to it in order to figure out if the traffic is good or not. You could also packet sniff all packets through something like snort as well.

    A regular computer will occassionally attempt to connect to the honeypot, a worm infected one will constantly be trying to connect to the honeypot, because it doesn't know your network layout.

    If you recognize that one of the machines is acting bizzarely, then you can turn off it's network access at the port on the switch.

    You can still do network discovery by seeing who is connected to the ports on your switches and then scanning their ip addresses.

    You should also set up routing rules to NOT allow testing computers to connect to production servers, it helps if production and development are on seperate private networks.

    Good times.

  69. The communications layer part already exists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't know about the whole automatically identifying viruses bit, but the communications layer needed for something like this would seem to have already been done, and in a more general form that is needed for this too.

  70. Just in... by POds · · Score: 1

    Hackers working on theoretical virus to defeat theoretical 'honey pot' virus stoper.

    --


    Giving IE users a taste of their own medicine since 2005 - http://pods.-is-a-geek.net/
  71. Fully Automated Security Breach Detection? by guitaristx · · Score: 1

    Does anyone have an example of a potentially dangerous security flaw that was detected and fixed by a software system with no human interaction? I've never heard of it, although I'll gladly have a slice of humble pie if I'm just ignorant.

    If I'm right, I suspect an antivirus network like this is extremely likely to zombie-fy the honeypots, and then use them to propagate a back door to every system relying on the antivirus network.

    --
    I pity the foo that isn't metasyntactic
  72. But... by The_Wilschon · · Score: 1

    Everyone knows mathematicians can't do arithmetic! Heck, they're even worse at it than physicists, like me! :-p

    --
    SIGSEGV caught, terminating

    wait... not that kind of sig.
  73. Nothing new here. by twitter · · Score: 1
    Is the novelty 1. Using this technique for viruses? 2. Using a dedicated honeynet?

    How about someone thinking that dedicating 800,000 computers to guarding Bill Gates' crappy OS is a good use of resources? Give me a break, you could run Google 2 with that kind of processing power.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  74. duh by caller9 · · Score: 1

    Isnt this something that is already going on? Antivirus vendors spread their bait emails and insecure servers around to contract stuff and then react to it.

    I think they could be more productive if they just use the current IE flaw and incorperate it into a web survey asking if the user is over 40. Infect that, whitelist all current software on the machine unless it's known bad and report on new executables. Bam, you're done with your honeypot. Those old codgers will click anything! They catch it first and then their zombie sentinel reports home with it's newest malware.

  75. Unworkable by Progman3K · · Score: 1

    If you start from the premise that the honeynet's code will perform perfectly; ie that it cannot be owned by the virus and that it can therefore be trusted to work as advertised, fine.

    But the problem is that in reality, the honeynet is composed of software too, so even if you think it is better than nothing, you might change your mind when virus writers discover exploits in the honeynets.

    Hoping the honeynet computers won't break containment at that point is wishful thinking at best.

    --
    I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
  76. but then they're not honeypots. by Puf_Almighty · · Score: 0

    But in this case they aren't serving as "honeypots" (nonfunctional things meant to simulate the vulnerabilities of the functional thing so as to protect from specific attackers) but rather people being tested for pathogens, to identify for patheogens.

    It's a totally different thing because it's not a sacrificial lamb. What you're describing here is just a sort of a survey of existing pathogens in the community, and immunizing against them. In fact this is basically what is done today when we immunize masses of people: you take people who get sick, check what they're sick with, and give healthy people a vaccine against it.

  77. Nature should do their homework by diwaker · · Score: 1

    There's actually published work on this (to Nature's credit, this is fairly recent work). This system called Vigilante [1] (incidentally from Microsoft Research) does it all: automatice detection of worm, automatic distribution of signatures, automatic generation of "filters" and protection mechanisms. In the paper, the author's don't use honeypots, but there's nothing in the system that precludes their use.

    [1] http://research.microsoft.com/research/pubs/view.a spx?type=Publication&id=1483

    Published in this years ACM Symposium on Operating Systems Principles (SOSP)

    --
    Web/Blog/Gallery: http://floatingsun.net
  78. Multiple uses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Let's look at this another way. The plan is to put a network of 800,000 servers lying in wait for viruses? They'd have to be practically sat on the backbone at peering points to keep up with all the traffic they might get from nosy viruses. With that sort of connectivity they may as well be in promiscuous mode, sniffing all data, especially if those pesky viruses find out and actively avoid their IPs.

    What if rather than a possible virus, the data is...
    1. An mp3 or mpeg movie?
    2. Flowing from a specific country or region?
    3. Flowing from a specific company?


    I'm sure the RIAA, MPAA and various governments will love it. Instant gratification rather than forcing ISPs to cough up log data, espionage, etc.
  79. Nature really is slipping by penguin-collective · · Score: 1

    That idea is very, very old.

    Nature seems to want to publish stuff in computer science, but it is becoming increasing clear that they simply have no clue what they are doing. Apparently, they select papers that take some idea from computer science, add some biological or physics jargon, and otherwise fit their format, and publish it.

    It seems more and more like Nature is turning into the New Scientist, only Nature isn't as entertaining.

  80. That ain't a false positive by bruce_the_loon · · Score: 1

    Hey buddy.

    Detecting Sony's pile'o'dung is a true positive match in my books.

    Good premise, bad example.

    I doubt this idea would work, something would give it away to the virus in the end.

    --
    Trying to become famous by taking photos. Visit my homepage please.
  81. What if? by Karem+Lore · · Score: 1

    These honey port machines, a.k.a venus fly trap, become sentient and hold the entire human race to ransom...Doomsday monguering it may be, but I would not like to be on the receiving end of a narked virus honey pot...

    --
    When all is said and done, nothing changes...
  82. Why not turn normal users' PCs into honeypots? by Bombula · · Score: 1
    I'm not a programmer, so I apologize for my ignorance and stupidity in advance, but couldn't antivirus software effectively turn normal users' PCs into the honeypots they're talking about in pretty much the same way? From my admittedly naive point of view, it seems like the only thing missing is the ability for AV software on uers' machines to send outbound alerts.

    If my machine is running Norton AV, and I get something, couldn't my machine just automatically alert a central Symantec server or something like that, and then everyone else connected to NAV would get an alert? I know NAV checks for updates on regular intervals - maybe if that interval was every few minutes instead of every few hours or day or whatever, you could just put the honeypot role right onto end users? Plus, there are a lot more than 800,000 end users of AV software.

    Sorry if this is really dumb.

    --
    A-Bomb
  83. Paranoia by Moggie68 · · Score: 1

    puton_tinfoil_hat: What would then happen if the controller of these honeypots was to let a large software corporation inject the honeypots with information that a competitor's software is malicious? It would disable that software on every machine on the internet. Hows that for Mi..er...underhanded business practices?
    putoff_tinfoil_hat:

  84. Proving him right... re-read the summary by Kamiza+Ikioi · · Score: 1

    Which proves him right, that the article summary which says .004%, not .004, is wrong. They probably meant .004 (.04%), but that is not what they wrote. I wouldn't want you doing MY taxes in such mistyped Excel spreadsheets. I'd rather get a penalty of .004% instead of .004 due to misreading my statements. Come back when you put your glasses on maybe. 8)

    --
    I8-D
    1. Re:Proving him right... re-read the summary by JourneyExpertApe · · Score: 1

      They probably meant .004 (.04%)

      Are you retarded? The "teacher" said that 800 000 / 200 000 000 = 0.004%. That is wrong because he confused percents with ratios. The summary is wrong, but she said it was right. And you are wrong because .004 is not .04%, it's .4%

      --
      If you can read this sig, you're too close.
    2. Re:Proving him right... re-read the summary by Kamiza+Ikioi · · Score: 1

      My mistake, thought parent was actually referring to the post of:

      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=170011&cid=141 69789

      >Seems like good math skills are too. 800,000 computers out of 200 million is WAY more than 0.004% as the summary stated

      >Someone is off by a couple orders of magnitude. Much closer to half a percent. ...which I thought Anon was replying too.

      So, yep you're right, completely my mistake.

      --
      I8-D
  85. Re: Just send windows to some of them by RedLaggedTeut · · Score: 1

    Just send microsoft windows(R)(tm) to one of the honeypots, and the defense network will immediately make the entire internet more secure.

    --
    I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
  86. What about Autoimmune Disease? by dsmatthews · · Score: 1

    You could subvert such a system by using it to induce and Digital Autoimmune Disease where legitimate software is seen as a virus. e.g. A big company, such as a record company, hears about some small developer's product that threatens their profits so they get a hold of this new product and use it's signature to inoculate one of the honey pot systems.

  87. How it works, if built properly by billstewart · · Score: 1
    First of all, don't expect deep technical detail from a news article. Reverse engineering the technical detail from a news article is similarly fraught with peril, but worth a try :-)

    Viruses on networks infect their victims by sending messages to (or back and forth with) their victims. You don't have to run the victim program to receive or detect the virus - you just have to accept and send the right messages, and then you need to distinguish between messages that are viruses and other kinds of messages (e.g. spam), and for a honeypot network you also need to communicate with your friends on a network that doesn't get flooded out by the virus, so a backdoor network can be helpful. For a honeypot network, you normally won't have any legitimate traffic on the Internet side, so all the packets you receive are either viruses or other malicious traffic, so your risks of false positives are somewhat reduced.

    Most network viruses work in one of three ways

    • Sending single packets to a target application, such as the tightly crafted UDP 1434 attack in Slammer. For a honeypot, you need to listen on the port and distinguish between viruses and general scanner doorknocking, but if your response to possible attacks is to shun or divert all traffic from anybody who sends traffic to your honeypot, and your ISPs are making at least some effort to do IP address-spoofing prevention, you should be able to find miscreants fairly quickly even if they're not viruses.
    • Message exchanges, usually TCP, that are corrupt in some way. Here the job is a bit more complex, because your honeypot has to send one or more appropriate response packets back after a TCP handshake, and you may not be as effective if you're not sending back the right responses, but since you don't have any legitimate traffic, everything you get is at least some kind of malicious.
    • Valid sessions with applications such as SMTP that send an malicious payload to a separate application such as Outlook. For this kind of virus, there are a number of simple and safe SMTP servers, and the problem is figuring out what messages are viruses (usually few) and what are just spam (usually most). There are reasonable uses for spam detection, so your honeypot network can be highly useful even if it's not always correct about viruses, and these days most of the spam and phishing gets sent from zombies or open relays that need to be cleaned up anyway. But most of the spam is syntactically correct, because it's trying to display correctly and infect the gullible reader's wallet, not their computer, so you can fairly easily filter that out and find the more interesting stuff. That may not always be viruses, but it's at least stuff you'd like to classify as suspicious and block or filter out. You can't always tell if it's a virus without feeding it to Outlook, especially if it relies on user interaction such as clicking an "Are you gullible?" link or doing some sort of Javascript mouseover trick, but you can still find most of the problems without running Outlook.

    The backdoor network doesn't *need* to be a private network separate from the Internet, though that's potentially useful. At least in the US, most major ISPs are working on traffic prioritization, so you could get by with running your backdoor network as IPSEC tunnels with a higher priority (plus putting a few gateways in the major networks, since most of them don't have business plans for exchanging diffserv with each other.) Also, many ISPs run T1 ports on Cisco equipment that does Weighted Fair Queueing by default, so your IPSEC tunnels may get adequate treatment just because they're not TCP, and some ISPs are willing to give explicit prioritization to easily-identified traffic types on a custom basis even if it's not a standard service.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  88. Because it wouldn't work: by TwistedSpring · · Score: 1

    The DNA of the virus is not the important part. The important part recognised by the immune system is the protein shell around the DNA (or RNA) known as the capsid, which is recognised as foreign by the immune system. In order to immunize people to a particular virus we need an antigen that bears a close (or exact) resemblance to the protein structure of the capsid of the pathogen in question so that antibodies may recognise the foreign structure swiftly in future, preferably disposing of them before they infect cells.

    The genetic materials inside the capsid do not have any effect until a cell is infected. Pumping viral DNA into your bloodstream will do nothing. It will be assimilated and you will still be susceptible to the pathogen 0from which it was copied.

    If future technologies could synthesise a viral capsid with no genetic code inside, then we might be on the right track. We would still get the common cold, though.