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Senate Proposes Patriot Act Extension
geekylinuxkid writes "Senate leaders reached a bipartisan agreement Wednesday night to extend expiring and controversial provisions of the Patriot Act for six months. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, a Republican from Tennessee, announced the agreement from the Senate floor, ending an impasse over the measure." From the article: "Last week, the House voted 251-174 to renew the 16 provisions after striking a compromise that altered some of them. The provisions were set to expire at year's end if not renewed. Controversial measures include those allowing the FBI -- with a court order -- to obtain secret warrants for business, library, medical and other records, and to get a wiretap on every phone a suspect uses." More commentary on the BBC. We reported on last week's failure of the original renewal.
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As has been pointed out before... who needs an extension to the PATRIOT act, when the President can just issue an executive order?
Extension, not extention...
This is not what I hoped for, but 6 months is probably the best the republicans can get for now. After all, 2006 is election year and everyone is switching into CYA mode. This will only hit the garbage can AFTER we elect a democratically controlled senate/house.
Frist makes me laugh, he says "This is a win for America's safety and security, and I'm pleased the Senate was able to rise above the partisan politics being played by the minority to do the right thing."
And we know the majority would NEVER play partisan politics to get what they want.
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
Put me on the top of the list of supposed "terrists" because I oppose everything the jackbooted thug Republicans stand for. Let's see the idiots open a file on me now if they already haven't! Up the rebels!!!
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
This is sad. 1984 anybody.
..."Mission Accomplished!"
Why would the FBI need a warrant when King George can simply bypass FISA and issue a secret and pointless decree allowing domestic spying without a warrant? Especially when, under FISA, a wiretap or other device can be requested without a pre-existing warrant (as long as a warrant comes within 72 hours)?
-- The reason it's called the right wing? Irony.
Fortunately, this doesn't guarantee it will pass. One of the provisions I agree with is the one that eliminates barriers to intelligence agents and prosecutors sharing information. This act has already infringed on many peoples freedom, but has also opened up the government to be more scrutinous in the case of certain suspicious entities. Has it overall had a positive or negative effect? Since we as the general public cannot easily gauge what information they have collected entirely as a result, who can say for sure.
For those interested in the provisions the House passed, this site explains most of them in plain english LA Times Provisions
This site has the latest in how the patriot act currently stands.
must be hiding something...
We just got Fristed?
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
US citizens:
Write, phone, email your Representatives and Senators - and ask them to knock down at least some of the more onerous provisions of the Patriot Act - I'm thinking of provisions like the one allowing secret warrants, for example.
Many of them will be back in their districts for the holidays. Visit their offices and talk politely with their staff. Inform yourselves of the Act's details, and make to-the-point suggestions.
Exercise democracy. The Act is vulnerable at this moment.
You can't talk about Wikipedia's flaws on Wikipedia
This is also covered on Yahoo's news site.
a triot_act
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051222/ap_on_go_co/p
When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. - Jefferson
It's better to fight for freedom by _providing_ freedom. The same goes for a whole bunch of other nations as well... *looks at a bunch of European countries wanting to play Stasi as well*
Put the money on finding terrorists, diplomatic solutions to end hostilities and good old fashion not too bright police officers who screw up in a way we can find out.
Almost as bad as the guy that posted "czech this out" on the front page.
Wrists killing you? Not in 2 weeks. Learn Dvorak.
At least we don't have never-expiring extensions that never come up for review.
The simple fact of the matter is that I just don't trust our current administration with the powers they've been granted - and that's quite a change considering I voted for Bush in 2000. He's done a lot to convince me I didn't pick the best man for the job - you'd almost think he was trying.
I haven't read the linked article yet, but I did read a story in the Wisconsin State journal about it...
Apparently the bill still needs to go to the House, as the House originally voted for it to be renewed in it's original form, not an extension. According to that article, because it's different than what the House voted to pass, it has to go up for another vote.
It was also pointed out that the House is scheduled to be in recess until January 31, a month after the original provisions will expire and be off the books--and it's hard to extend something that is already expired (although I wouldn't put anything past this administration--I'll be so glad when W is out of office!)
In my not-so-educated opinion, it would appear that given what little I know, the extension doesn't stand much chance of passing since a recessed House would have to reconvene, debate, and vote on the changes, in less than nine days, during the holiday season.
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
I think that goes directly back to what Benjamin Franklin was saying when he talked about people who give up freedom for security deserve neither.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
What will be the next step? Start gathering a clone army or start building the Death Star?
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I can understand how this would appeal to the lefty whiners on slashdot, but how is this news for nerds?
Totally. Also, I don't know why W.'s presidential term should expire.
Please.
Thou shalt not begin a subject line or post with the word "Umm".
The Patriot Act was passed in 2001 while the WTC rubble was still smoking. They built in the expiration because it was obviously a piece of knee-jerk legislation guaranteed to be overreaching-- it was expected that four years later, we'd have simmered down, we'd have the benefit of hindsight and the expiration date would force re-examination and adjustment of the law's provisions.
Nobody imagined that that son of a bitch Bush II and his minions would have spent the intervening years abusing/hiding behind it while turning the U.S. into a police state, and that they'd not want to pare down any of the civil-liberties-stomping aspects.
~Philly
from what I've read case law supports this. Since it involves foreign powers and influence, the President, any President, can use those powers with no need for a warrant as is within his right as commander and chief.
How about we strike a deal? The government will prevent people from blowing stuff up, like the Brooklyn Bridge, and they won't use those tapes in court at a trial.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
All your civil rights are belong to us!
The sheer amount of ignorance around the PATRIOT act by liberals is astounding. You do realize that it was passed 98-1 initially?
The USA PATRIOT act does NOT introduce one new power not already available to the government or a DA in some form to Drug Dealers. Flexible roaming wiretaps, "after the fact" search notices, applying wire taps to Internet usage, etc.
Please, do the research and actually read through the entire legislation before making a judgement. I know it isn't the liberal way, but try it once.
How about Republican liars and cheats?
They haven't figured how to spy on us through our TVs.... yet.
/. population would leave the country overnight.
/tinfoil tv cover
And thank God we don't have mandatory morning calisthenics.
Half the
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
And exactly *who* is surprised by this?
The most amazing thing about this soap opera is how all that government spying was accepted to be really happening ever since the 50's by every conspiracy theorist or anyone with common sense.
What did you think those thousands of CIA agents, NSA agents, FBI agents did all day? Eat donuts?
Now that they actually tried to ratify their activities on paper, every conspiracy theorist now says it never happened before and acts like defeating the patriot act is going to make a difference.
Nobody imagined that that son of a bitch Bush II and his minions would have spent the intervening years abusing/hiding behind it while turning the U.S. into a police state...
Um...just for the record...I imagined it. I started imagining it just about when the Republican-dominated Supreme Court of the Unites States handed Dubya the Presidency.
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
"Nobody imagined that that son of a bitch Bush II and his minions would have spent the intervening years abusing/hiding behind it while turning the U.S. into a police state, and that they'd not want to pare down any of the civil-liberties-stomping aspects."
And how has he done that? I don't see any police hanging around my neighborhood. No one's checking my papers. No one's stopping me and asking me where I'm going. No one's tapping my phone because I'm a) not calling overseas to countries that might harbour terrorists and b) I'm not linked to any terrorist organization.
i'd like to see an example of where the patriot act provisions were used egregiously by the current administration.
Nobody imagined that that son of a bitch Bush II and his minions would have spent the intervening years abusing/hiding behind it while turning the U.S. into a police state, and that they'd not want to pare down any of the civil-liberties-stomping aspects.
I imagined it, and a lot of other people did as well. We were quashed right out of public discourse, the corporate controlled mass media completely suppressed all dissent until sometime around mid 2004.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
Vast majority of Patriot Act is permanent. Only few fringe statues are in play here. Even with those, majority of them have bi-partisan support (sad, but true).
We are only talking about 2 or 3 provisions being RENEWED with added safeguards.
NO ONE is talking about getting rid of the Act all together.
He wasn't "handed" anything. He legally won the election. If you're going to bitch, get your facts straight first.
With the UK & USA seemingly going down the route of 'the more we can track our citizens, the safer they'll be', which 'western' countries have we got left to emigrate to where we can at least trust the government not to be listening to our conversations or tracking our cars - Canada? Sweden?
This isn't a partisan issue - this is an AMERICAN issue. The USA Patriot Act was passed right after 9/11 - who in their right mind wasn't going to vote against it (Whomever did, I forget whom, said that we were rushing into things). People wanted a response, and this is what they got. You do realize that the act was thrown together in 3 weeks and was about 400 pages long, don't you? Do you think anyone had time to read through all of it.
The point of the matter is - some provisions violate the 4th and 5th Amendments of the Constitution, which, among other things, are supposed to protect the right to unreasonable searches and seizures and the rights of the accused. I did a long report on this my first year in college, and there's a lot to be worried over.
Quit blowing partisan smoke out your ass AND WAKE UP! America as we know it is falling apart, and idiots like you that spout off talking points aren't helping matters any.
My MythTV HowTo
Sorry for replying twice, but I wonder who's got the /. UID 1984
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
President Bush is NOT the only president that believes the office of the president has executive power to conduct warrantless searches to acquire foreign intelligence information. President Clinton did it in 1995 and President Carter did it in 1979.
Even the FISA court itself admitted "that the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information." President Bush stated that these were only done where ties to Al Qaeda were suspected and so it falls into his authority.
Also in 2002 when the Patriot Act and the FISA act were being looked at for constitunality it was determined by the court "We take for granted that the President does have that authority and, assuming that is so, FISA could not encroach on the President's constitutional power."
Previous administrations believed and faught for the same thing!
That doesn't mean we should not be cautious about any of this though. We should!
A six-month renewal of the Patriot Act would put another renewal squarely in the middle of election season. I'm thinking both sides are going to try to tar the other with it ("You want to give the terrorists free reign!" No, you want to trample the freedoms of the American people!"). Should be an interesting screaming match.
One thing that no one seems to realise - and is very important for Canadians and other countries who do business in the United Sates (so almost everyone) - is that this law also allows US intelligence agencies to spy on our businesses and citizens who have dealings with the US. They have no right to do this. It is an act of espionage and just another example the gross hypocrisy and mass stupidity of an administration claiming to stand for personal freedoms, civil liberties, and human rights.
No, instead it will be like copyright, and the government will simply renew them year after year after year until it fades from public attention.
Somewhat how like copyrights have been extended one a consistent basis so that they renew into perpetuety.
Did I offend your sense of self-righteousness?
Here's a key word for you, "yet."
Either you can just ignore what is happening and assume that "all will come out in the end," or perhaps you might want to stop the boulder at the top of the hill before it gains enough momentum to crush all those at the bottom?
Not for long, they won't be...
The enemies of Democracy are
I, for one, can't wait to help vote that dipshit out of office next year.
it's a blue bright blue Saturday hey hey
These included roving phone taps and secret warrants for documents from businesses and hospitals, and for records of library books taken out by private citizens. From BBC
They can look at my library records? Oh, man. I only checked out the Brian Herbert books 'cause I was curious. I'm so sorry...please don't throw me in jail...
we are fighting terrorism. we are spreading democracy whether anyone likes it or not. if you question us, you hate freedom a good number of americans must hate freedom, then, as much as we're questioning this act that quenches it.
"of all worlds, may the good lord deliver us from a world where everyone
Every time you apply for a loan from a bank, your complete financial / tax records gets sent to the DHS per the Patriot Act, and the bank is bound by law not to inform you.
This is not what I hoped for, but 6 months is probably the best the republicans can get for now. After all, 2006 is election year and everyone is switching into CYA mode. This will only hit the garbage can AFTER we elect a democratically controlled senate/house.
Your hopes are pinned on the likes of Howard 'White Flag' Dean being able to garner the swing vote. Hmm, swing vote and Howard Dean, not two words you often find used together. I am hopeful Dean and his ilk will alienate the electorate again and that America will grow redder. A filibuster proof Senate majority would be nice. Then we can and we can really get something done. What I find really inexplicable about the agreement is that the ANWR was dropped. Hopefully Senator Frist will reattach it to some Democrat sacred cow legislation so we can actually do something to increase our domestic oil supplies.
an ill wind that blows no good
Bush will veto it. He's a conservative republican who would never grant that kind of sweeping power to a centralized state.
Hail, Emperor Dubya!
Understanding is a three-edged sword. -- Kosh Naranek
Patriot Act? With the President tapping phone lines, who really cares what laws are in place? Apparently they don't matter.
[%] Cingular Ringtones
"These included roving phone taps and secret warrants for documents from businesses and hospitals, and for records of library books taken out by private citizens."
Delayed notification search warrants are a long-existing, crime-fighting tool upheld by courts nationwide for decades in organized crime, drug cases and child pornography
DA's have been seizing library records for years, and roving wire taps just make sense. If a terrorist walks into Best Buy and can buy 10 pre-paid phones, we should be able to keep tapping him.
Poor widdle baby... did you burn yourself on my radiant zinger?
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
This will only hit the garbage can AFTER we elect a democratically controlled senate/house.
Unfortunately, you did elect a democratically controlled sentate/house. It's just that a combination of events allowed most of the checks and balances to be overcome.
Ultimately, the 2000 election aside, a Republican president got elected in to office. In 2004 he got elected back in again. In 2008 he has to leave and either a Republican will be elected in to follow him or a Democrat to replace him. Pretty much democracy in action.
Congress and the Senate, similarly, were populated by votes. Granted there was some dubious redistricting by a guy who's now under criminal investigation - but those offices were all populated by votes and can have their population changed by votes. Again, pretty much democracy in action.
None of those offices, despite some glaring similarities, are dictatorships and, certainly, none of them are "for life" (save the Supreme Court but that's long been accepted). Every one of them can be changes [at regular intervals] by the will of the people. Thus, by definition, it is a democracy.
The problem is, when you allow the will of the people, you have to allow that people are stupid.
9/11 and the threat of the boogie man have worked as a great tool for scaring people and getting them to vote pro-conservative. It worked for the Nazi party in the 1940s, it worked for the Conservatives in Britain during the Falkands and the first Gulf war, and it's working for the Republicans now.
As Jimmy Carter pointed out on The Daily Show last night: "There's 9-10% of the population that, regardless of political affiliation, will always vote to support the current commander in chief whenever there's a war on and America's young men and women are fighting." Most of the margins are well within that 9-10% and, so long as there's a war on, it's an instant bonus for the party in power.
So, sadly, it is, by definition, a democratically elected government. It's just that part of democracy is allowing stupid people to vote, that stupid people can be manipulated, and that smart politicians will, eventually, find a way around almost any checks and balances. But that doesn't stop it being democratically elected.
Hey, if the Iron Curtain was so much fun 1960s, well... the USSA can be fun, too.
With apologies to the Beatles...
Oh, flew into Miami Beach econo-class,
Didn't get to bed last night,
TSA guy's rubber glove still up my ass,
Man I had a dreadful flight,
I'm back in the USSA!
They're watchin' you every day, hey,
Back in the USSA!
Been away so long I hardly knew the place,
Gee it's good to be back home,
Leave it till tomorrow to unpack my case,
Honey disconnect the phone,
I'm back in the USSA.
They're watchin' you every day, hey,
Back in the US,
More flak in the US,
No slack in the USSA!
Well the Midwest girls really knock me out
They leave Moscow behind
And DC girls make me sing and shout
'Cuz Washington is always on my mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mind!
Oh, they're sayin' it's for reasons of security,
Naw, it ain't no politics,
And now they've redefined the meaning of "be free",
To shiny boots and big nightsticks!
We're back in the USSA!
They're watchin' you every day, hey,
Back in the USSA!
Oh let me tell you, honey! (Ooh ooh ooh!)
Oh, show me around your desert wastelands way down south,
Hire Chicanos for your farm,
Let me hear your patriotic acts ring out,
Shock and awe your comrades warm!
I'm back in the USSA!
They're watchin' you every day, hey,
Back in the USSA!
Oh let me tell you, honey! (Ooh ooh ooh!)
Hey, I'm back! (Ooh ooh ooh!)
I'm back in the USSA. (Ooh ooh ooh!)
Yes, I'm free! (Ooh ooh ooh!)
Yeah, back in the USSA.. (Ooh ooh ooh!)
Next step: Instituting a federal Bear Patrol to stop these constant bear attacks. I also hear there's a little girl who has a rock that keeps tigers away, this should also be investigated.
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.
Would you say the same of anyone who objected to pre-flight anal-probes at all major airports? :-o
Shop as usual. And avoid panic buying.
These are the text from number stations, they broadcast messages to spies using a one-time pad. numbers stations for more info; so really, parent should be modded up
1p}{ 1 sp34k |33+ +|-|e|\| p30p13 \/\/il| 8e i/\/\pr3553|)
You can also say that anybody who strongly agrees with the Patriot Act must be hiding something. Sort of like people who are vehemently anti-gay, yet are in the closet themselves.
I wonder if all of you realize that in order for the gov't to spy on someoen by the patriot act, they must be a known al-qaeda contact and one of the contact must be _overseas_
. asp?ID=20635)
if that applies to anyone here... and you think you're being watched wrongly, you can complain. for the rest of us, regardless of what the media tells you, the gov't isnt listening to your phone calls.
(http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle
I'm well aware of the original vote tally passing the "patriot" act. I think we've seen it was an overreaction, that it has been abused, and the White House has overstepped even the wide powers it got from that ill considered peace of legislation.
Every time Condi talks about it, she always says "The first smoking gun could be a mushroom cloud over a major city." My guess is that she's trying to scare and stampeed people into unwise actions.
America is about freedom.
The Administration is always talking about how "they" hate and despise our freedomes.
Seems to me that we shouldn't be limiting freedoms then. Otherwise, we are doing the work of destroying our country for them.
Getting down to cases, I think it's been shown what has done with the special powers granted in the act. EG: Not a lot of good things. We've invaded two countries, installed governments to our liking, and still people are shooting at each other and innocents are still dying. No improvement there, other than getting the Taliban and Saddam out of power. That is aregueably a good thing, but the price is much too high in my opinion. I thought at the time that we should have waited, but I was also concerned about the yellow cake situation. A stiuation it turns out just wasn't true.
Next is that "Congress saw all the same intelligence we did!" Well, sir, that turns out not to be the case. Seems that source assessment reports on the intelligence was NOT shared with congress, but WAS shared with the Administration. A source assessment report grades the source of the intelligence, some "spy" books range it as "Accepted as truth", "Trusted source, personally received", down to "known counterintelligence operat." There are good reasons not to share that information, but it seems most of the most damaging and most pointed to intelligence was from people known to be undependable, and that the administration knew they were but didn't say so, and there were some in the intelligence community that kept trying to point it out these sources were undependable. Some were gagged, some were transferred, some were fired, most were just ignored.
No sir. This is bad law and it isn't good for our country. I will say this, I have no doubt whatever that someone that has a known bad guy and needs the information to protect the country will do what it takes to get the information, even breaking the law to do it if it's that important. When that happens, it will either get covered up, or it will become public. Only if it becomes public will it go to a court, where 12 citizen will sit there and put themselves in the position of the agent and decide if what he did was illegal but justified. Even if it were illegal, I believe that a jury won't find him guilty if it was important enough.
Lastly, I love my country. I do not have to love the administration, and I refuse to accept being called unpatriotic because I disagree with your opinions. That is unworthy of a patriot, and the supporters of this administration should find a more mature way to disagree with people. What I see is that many confuse critizing the administrations actions with hating America. That isn't true. It's called loving your country to want to make it better, no matter how good it already is.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
I suggest you visit this site and familiarize yourself with the event in question.
From the site (emphasis mine):Bush's 2000 victory was only 'legal' in the sense that a decision of the SCOTUS must be de facto lawful, as there is no higher legal authority...in other words, the doctrine of 'the King can do no wrong'.
For a taste of how our Founding Father's felt about this doctrine, here's a quote from The Federalist No. 69:Of course, this is in regard to the executive branch, but similar views were held forth regarding the judicial.
From The Federalist No. 78:
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Please show that nobody imagined that the misnamed Patriot Act would be abused. It is my opinion that anyone with minimal capacity for rational thought imagined exactly that. Further, when it was subsequently revealed that none of those who voted for the bill had actually read it, imagination quickly turned to resignation. At least in my case. I still suspect that the allegations that the DoJ had the PA prepared in advance are true.
--
My other car is a tin foil hat.
The Washington Post recently launched a comprehensive votes database that lets you browse every vote in the U.S. Congress since 1991 and is updated several times daily.
Here, for instance, is the House vote mentioned in this Slashdot blurb.
Disclaimer: I'm the Web developer who worked on this database.
We well remember the circumstances under which a law called "the PATRIOT Act" got passed to begin with. Yes. You might do better for your side of the ideological divide not to remind anyone of that process. This discussion is already about the abuse of power, you don't need to score points for the other side.
does NOT introduce one new power not already available to the government or a DA in some form to Drug Dealers.
You need to maybe edit this sentence so we have the slightest idea what you're saying. I think I can make a guess, but your point is badly garbled.
do the research and actually read through the entire legislation before making a judgement
Had you noticed that the debate about this law's renewal has had two sides:
Which of those sides seems to be staking out an adult position? Which reflects a thorough understanding of the bill? I ask you.
The objections to this legislation reflect specific concerns about it, they aren't an incoherent rant on the level of your post. I guess we'll just have to cut you some slack, though, as you're busy reading the 342-page text of the act, I feel certain.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
http://www.google.com/search?q="strip club" "patriot act"
"The law was intended for activities related to terrorism and not to naked women," said Reid, who as minority whip is the second most powerful Democrat in the Senate.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Hell no! I will not leave this country. It is my country. Every time I read a suggestion that "We" find a new place to live, because "Our country is going down the tube, I cringe. I will not run away but will stay the course to restore citizens rights. If "They" don't like it they can leave but "I'm" staying put.
Please mod me 1 or troll. It's where the truth is these days, even on Slashdot. Beware the power of moderators everywh
Excellent Post
I removed my rating intentionally because I offended your self-righteousness and made you cwy.
the misinformation. I've seen these allegations that Clinton spied on american citizens without a court order on Drudge, NRO and all the conservative blogs. They all reference executive order 12949 which states " Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) of the Act, theAttorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order" What does text of the law say, the president can authorize searches of foreign powers without a court order. No where does the law say American Citizens. King George could have easily followed the law but didn't, other presidents did.
Have you ever been to a turkish prison?
...typical AC cowahd!!!! Have to hide behind you mommy Taco.
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
Journal Entry October, 28th 2168
I'm so excited I can barely write! It's hard to believe, but we're finally starting to have an impact and
make a difference. The effects of our coups d'etat are slowly beginning to sink in to the formerly
oppressed I.R. populace. It seems like only yesterday we were running from the law, branded as
insurgents. Now the Shah of the Islamic Republic of the Americas has fled into exile back to his
ancestors' homelands in the Middle East. Most of his generals and lieutenants (including the Ministry
leaders of all the various government departments) were executed yesterday under my regimental
commander's orders. Their bodies now lie in an undisclosed mass grave along with the bodies of their
families and children. Surprisingly, we are labeled by the public as heroes and liberators. What a stark
contrast to last month's broadcast from the Press Ministry detailing our efforts as an "unholy
abomination against all of the peaceful teachings of the Koran."
Our militias managed to push back the might of the I.R. Armed Forces (IRAF) who were, until recently,
under the command of the Shah and his Minister of Peace. Luckily, our surprise attack destroyed and
segmented their forces and communications. The battalions of the IRAF were unable to operate without
direction from their superiors. Some soldiers surrendered and became willful contributors to our cause.
The ones who didn't choose to join us now lie in shallow graves where they were slain. We have not the
time, manpower, or resources to run or maintain the labor and prison camps from where many of our
freedom fighters were recently liberated. I find it ironic how many of the victories that secured our
success were fought on the same battlefields rumored to have been used centuries ago to secure this
once great nation's independence from the Islamic Republic of Great Britain. Someone once told me
that it was just called "Great Britain" back then, but I'm not familiar with that version of history and
probably never will be due to the purging and burning of most pre-Conquest history books.
Most of the JRE (Jihad Republic Elite) in the New Baghdad area took their own lives rather than be
captured by our roving patrols and subsequently tortured, interrogated, and put to death. I personally
saw to the brute interrogation and destruction of any and all remaining JRE special forces soldiers in
my sector (on the shores of the Chesapeake Bay Southeast of New Baghdad) who chose not to honor
their suicidal blood oath to the Shah. We're still finding platoons in the urban areas; but now that we
have most of the intelligence we need to complete our mission, they are labeled expendable, covered
with petroleum, and burned alive in public. Their remains are dishonored by being thrown into the sea
rather than properly buried. A fitting demise given the century of murder, torture, rape, and pillaging
the JRE contributed to.
My grandfather's great-grandfather was one of the original resistance fighters in what is now referred to
as "The Great Conquest". The Holy Forces of Allah (HFA) invaded our lands from within during the
late 21st century and put a swift end to the old country's way of life. At the time, the general populace of
what was then known as the "United States of America" (or "U.S.") considered the country to be
impenetrable and our mighty military to be unstoppable. The economy wasn't controlled by the Shah's
regime back then. Individuals were allowed to control their own land and businesses. Some say the
population actually ran the government. This sounds very strange to someone like me who has seen the
exact opposite his entire life. Such concepts seem so foreign now after a century of oppression and
brainwashing.
What was once recorded in the now-burnt history books (before the "I.R.-compliant" history books
were published at the beginning of the century) of the old world as "The Day of Darkening" sa
The really sad part here is that in a month or two, when this supposed "scandal" vanishes just like the other supposed "scandals" you are going to be a mental basket case that needs therepy just to get by.
I will not argue with you much since you are obviously beyond reason (the supreme court and numerous other things have long held the president has the right to do some things in the name of natial security). And also because talking with someone screaming "liar!" at you all the time is really unappealing.
Just remember that the president is also commander in chief, and even if a person is a U.S. citizen if they are acting on behalf of a foriegn power that trumps thier rights as U.S. Citizens.
Not even the public is with you on this one as something like 68% of the populace thinks we should be able to tap terorist cell phones.
I honestly hope you can get past this.
FTA
"The legislation would apply only to businesses with more than $5 million in "gross remote taxable sales" each year."
so, as a small business owner, you will probably not be affected.
Debunking the Carter/Clinton Myth
by georgia10
Wed Dec 21, 2005 at 06:15:07 AM PDT
You know the shit is about the hit the fan when the wingers turn to Clinton to try and excuse King George's behavior. We saw it with the illegal invasion of Iraq ("but..but...CLINTON said Saddam has WMD!") and with the nuclear option ("but...but...you hated the filibuster when the Clenis was in power!"). But no distortion is more blatant, I think, than the one being circulated now that both Clinton and Carter authorized warrantless searches.
Think Progress does a quick and painless job of eviscerating the myth. Let's take a closer look and put this lie to rest. Yes, both Clinton and Carter issued executive orders pertaining to foreign intelligence surveillance. But neither of these even remotely authorized warrantless searches of American citizens, as Bush's order does.
CLINTON DID NOT ORDER WARRANTLESS SEARCHES OF AMERICAN CITIZENS
Here's what Clinton signed:
Section 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) [50 U.S.C. 1822(a)] of the [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance] Act, the Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section.
You don't have to be a lawyer to understand that Clinton allowed warrantless searches if and only if the AG followed section 302(a)(1). What does section 1822(a) require?
* the "physical search is solely directed at premises, information, material, or property used exclusively by, or under the open and exclusive control of, a foreign power or powers." Translation: You can't search American citizens.
* and there is "no substantial likelihood that the physical search will involve the premises, information, material, or property of a United States person." Translation: You can't search American citizens.
Moreover, Clinton's warrant waiver consistent with FISA refers only to physical searches. "Physical searches," as defined by 1821(5), exclude electronic surveillance.
CARTER DID NOT AUTHORIZE WARRANTLESS SEARCHES OF AMERICAN CITIZENS
And now, Carter's turn:
1-101. Pursuant to Section 102(a)(1) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1802(a)), the Attorney General is authorized to approve electronic surveillance to acquire foreign intelligence information without a court order, but only if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that Section.
Here, Carter refers to "electronic surveillance," rather than "physical searches" like Clinton. But again, Carter limits the warrantless surveillance to the requirements of Section 1802(a). That section requires:
* the electronic surveillance is solely directed at communications exclusively between or among foreign powers. Translation: You can't spy on American citizens.
* there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party. Translation: You can't spy on American citizens.
Section 1803(a)(2) requires that the Attorney General report to Congress (specifically, the House and Senate Intelligence Committees) about whether any American citizens were involved, what minimization procedures were undertaken to avoid it and protect their identities, and whether his actions comply with the law. Hot damn, that sounds like a check and balance to me!
To thwart would be evil-doers I use:
Cloak of Protection from +1, (+3 vs. Activist Judges)
Gauntlets of Serenity (+3 to saving throws vs. fear of a Neo-Con Supreme Court, unlawful searches and wiretapping)
Boots of successful striding (+4 to saving throws vs. harrasment by overworked and underpaid peon security personnel)
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
So what? why should i care what the government sees of me? They protect me. Nowhere in the Constitution does it guarantee ANYONE a right to privacy.
laws invoked in a benevolent administration* will still be laws in the future. When perhaps the government isn't quite as forgiving.
Maybe you missed the part of the conservative class where you're supposed to be interested in curtailing govermental power, not assisting a future installation of a totalitarian state.
*I assume you consider the Bush administration to be benevolent, as you referred to "liberals" in a condescending manner. I, OTOH, assume Bush is a hellspawned demon bent on enslaving the world.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
No one's checking my papers.
What makes you think you would be told if they were doing this? The PATRIOT act and FISA allow such surveillance to be done in secret, which means that you wouldn't be told. You might well be being monitored right this very minute; this very post may have gone into the "jav1231" file.
And you would simply never know.
--
$tar -xvf
The renewal was killed originally because the Democrats showed something resembling backbone by threatening a filibuster. Then, what? a couple weeks later, the same bill is being extended, and not a peep from the gutless idiots. So it was all posturing. They want it just as bad as the Republicans do, but they want to be seen to be reluctant.
The Senate Democrats showed themselves to be toothless watchdogs when they joined the 98-1 vote in favor of the original Patriot Act. It was later disclosed that most Senators joining in the vote didn't even read the legislation. And they slavishly voted in favor of the resolutions leading to the Iraq war with just as little questioning of the administration (with a very small number of honorable exceptions). Later, they trot out lame excuses: that they were deceived, they didn't know what they were voting for, they were just supporting the president in time of need, etc. This is what is wrong with the Democratic Party. They'll whine a litte, try to mitigate some effects, but they're part of the same rotten system, and are part of a herd mentality that afflicts the entire power elite in Washington. If the Republicans adovated the genocide of ten million, the Dems would offer a counter-proposal of five million, and fret about getting a Presidential assurance that only humane killing methods would be used.
They don't WANT the soap on a rope.
Get your teeth into a small slice: the cake of liberty
The only meaningful thing you point out, and which is the REAL FUCKING PROBLEM HERE, is "You are all for it when it serves your politics".
I'm a Democrat, leaning libertarian, but some of the krap Clinton tried to pull, like the Clipper chip, and things he did get away with, like NAFTA, really pissed me off.
I guess I'm one of the few who rationally looks at legislation, regardless of whether it's proposed by "my party" or not.
It really blows my mind that the once "small government" Republicans (you know who you are...) are now the ones hell bent on making the U.S. some kind of police state.
IMHO, the Republicans who voted with the Democrats on this latest round of the Patriot Act have way bigger balls than the Bill Frists, et al.
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
ANWR may have 15 billion barrels of recoverable reserves. That would be about 10% of US output for the next 20 years, coming at a time when Prudoe Bay recovery is in decline. That is oil we would not have to import from Chavez or Ahmadinejad. The infrastructure for transporting the oil safely is already in place. Is that not worth it. As for conservation, great. But even if you cut consumption by a massive 20%, economic growth would eliminate that benefit in 10 years. Then what? Conservation is not an energy policy.
an ill wind that blows no good
consider this the Frist post.
Homer: Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm.
Lisa: That's specious reasoning, Dad.
Homer: Thank you, dear.
Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.
Homer: Oh, how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn't work.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: It's just a stupid rock.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: But I don't see any tigers around, do you?
Homer: Lisa, I want to buy your rock.
could just be that people like and expect the privacy's guaranteed by the Constitution, that this particular Act has trampled in more ways than i can count.
A president who is a liar and probably a traitor
or his followers who pull up stuff without understanding what the issue is.
The issue is NOT that he authorized warrentless searchs. It is that he authorized warrentless searches on Americans, while saying that he would never do that. IOW, he has shown that he has no respect for the constitition; he has absolutely no integrity (I put this in terms of ); he is quite probably a traitor with all the core reporters of Plamegate saying that he almost certainly knew all that were involved (implies a conspiracy); he has shown that he inept as he is incapable of balancing a budget (he pushes a 40 billion deficit reduction spread over 5 years, when the deficit is running 450 billion / year and growing); he pushes nice projects (no child left behind, and NASA's new moon directive) but does not fund either.
This president is now the worse one going, and yet, you back him? I am guessing that you are a product of a Texas education.
The drunk part, on the other hand, is totally a personal choice. And a falsehood right now. But I should crack a beer, it's the holidays.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
I don't agree with this law, but it would be nice to see it applied to the congress and president's office. The whole country could then find out what really happened in Sept 11, the war on Iraq, and not to mentioned Bush's first "Selection" to the oval office.
Happy holidays!!!!
EXECUTIVE ORDER 12949
- - - - - - -
FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE PHYSICAL SEARCHES
By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution
and the laws of the United States, including sections 302 and 303 of the
Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 ("Act") (50 U.S.C. 1801,
et seq.), as amended by Public Law 103- 359, and in order to provide for
the authorization of physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes
as set forth in the Act, it is hereby ordered as follows:
Section 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) of the Act, the
Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a
court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of
up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications
required by that section.
Sec. 2. Pursuant to section 302(b) of the Act, the Attorney
General is authorized to approve applications to the Foreign
Intelligence Surveillance Court under section 303 of the Act to obtain
orders for physical searches for the purpose of collecting foreign
intelligence information.
Sec. 3. Pursuant to section 303(a)(7) of the Act, the following
officials, each of whom is employed in the area of national security or
defense, is designated to make the certifications required by section
303(a)(7) of the Act in support of applications to conduct physical
searches:
(a) Secretary of State;
(b) Secretary of Defense;
(c) Director of Central Intelligence;
(d) Director of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation;
(e) Deputy Secretary of State;
(f) Deputy Secretary of Defense; and
(g) Deputy Director of Central Intelligence.
None of the above officials, nor anyone officially acting in that
capacity, may exercise the authority to make the above certifications,
unless that official has been appointed by the President, by and with
the advice and consent of the Senate.
WILLIAM J. CLINTON
THE WHITE HOUSE,
February 9, 1995.
Life is not for the lazy.
NAFTA article
A money quote from above article:
"In addition, NAFTA included unprecedented guarantees to protect the value of corporate investments and even the rights to earn profits in the future arising out of changes in government regulations or policy. In particular, NAFTA created specific clauses that provide for compensation for lost investments and loss of future profits due to regulations that are "tantamount to expropriation" (NAFTA Secretariat 2003, article 1110). No other part of NAFTA has generated as much controversy as this "investor state" clause. To date, 27 cases have been reviewed under this clause by companies alleging that their foreign investments or their right to earn profits in other countries have been expropriated (Hemispheric Social Alliance 2003, 68-74). These claims, several of which have resulted in damages paid or regulations rescinded, have had a chilling effect on government efforts to regulate private businesses throughout the hemisphere."
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
You made these same claims a few days ago, and they are utter Bullshit! The executive orders signed by Clinton and Carter specifically reference FISA and that authorities granted by those orders are required to abide by FISA!. Bush has bypassed FISA directly. There is no comparison whatsoever between the two cases.
Think Progress has a nice explanation of this, and how Bush went FAR BEYOND anything that any President of the US has done before.
And that begs the question, why do you think so many conservative Republicans are outraged if Clinton had merely done the same thing?
And finally, one last question to demonstrate the right-wing's hypocrisy - if you support Bush spying on Americans without court orders, including non-terror persons like vegans, Would you not mind if Hillary Clinton used the same authority to spy on NRA members, anti-abortion activists, intelligent-design advocates, and anti-gay-marriage people?
make world, not war
Bush has said that he will use this act responsibly. Just the fact that it can be used irresponsibly is what scares me. For those of you who love Bush, what of the time when a Democratic president comes into office and is able to use this act? Are we going to trust all and every president from this point out to do what is right? They should not even have the ability to do otherwise...
jav1231, message incoming from Ossama. The time to execute the plan is now. Repeat, the time to execute the plan is now. All ops in place, and on schedule. Your 70 virgins await. Praise Allah, singed OBL.
Hey, asshat, now your linked, on the radar, and the NSA will be sure to monitor you, your family, and everyone you know. Hope you aren't planning on traveling over the holidays, cuz it's going to take a little longer than it used too. Oh, and you might want to disconnect your machine from the net.
Enjoy.
PS If I get picked up for sending this message, at the first sign of torture, I will be sure to let them know my controllers code name is jav1231, not because it's true, but just to fuck with you.
We don't need examples of abuses to make it wrong. The patriot act allows for a variety of activities that, at least in my estimation, are blatently unconstitutional. It allows for potential abuses and that should be enough to get any self-respecting citizen of this country to vote against it, and any president that has SWORN to uphold the constitution to veto it. The argument that it makes it easier to catch terrorists may be true. I know there are many members of the law enforcement community that say the similar things about many of our other laws. If it wasn't for all of the criminals rights it would me much easier to prosecute and convict criminals. The reason criminals have rights is so that law abiding citizens aren't harrassed, intimidated or otherwise mistreated by law enforcement. We don't need constant examples of infringements on a law abiding citizen's rights to prove the validity of our constitution.
Find coupons in Greeley
We had a President impeached for perjury/obstruction of justice (although really over sex in the Oval Office). Should we not then impeach a President who not only orders illegal wiretaps (just like Nixon), but admits to it openly, and who clearly can't tell where executive power ends? A President who takes us to war on admittedly faulty intelligence. If not now, then how many abuses before there is sufficient reason?
SENATOR CRAIG: Well, Rush, thank you, and thank you for allowing me on. It is a very important debate, and something that I think has -- certainly by Harry Reid and others -- been dramatically miscast as it relates to the intent of some of us who have constantly worked to assure that the Patriot Act did not tread on the rights, the constitutional rights, of law-abiding American citizens. You know, I've been here a little while, and I remember Janet Reno, and I remember Waco and Ruby Ridge, and I fear the day that we get a president, not this president, who has a very liberal attorney general and sees the opportunity, uh, to leap through the holes that are crafted in the Patriot Act, uh, that could tread on our civil liberties. I say that having once voted for the Patriot Act and -- and will vote for it again, and we're working very hard at this moment. We've been visiting with the White House the last few hours along with Democrats and Republicans to try to resolve this, because there is no question that a majority of the Senate, which includes some Democrats, do not want to see the Patriot Act expire. At the same time, we see this as a once-in-a-two-or-three-year opportunity or four to make sure that it never gets misused. That's permanent law we're talking about, not just something that we keel with on a day-to-day basis.
RUSH: I understand that. Let me focus on something you said at first here. You said that Senator Reid is mischaracterizing some of the loyal opposition on the Republican side of this, or I guess throughout the whole Senate. One of the things I think that bothers people, and I'm sure you've been getting e-mail and phone calls in your office from people who just know that you voted against it, don't understand it. The reason they're upset is because they see a Democratic Party trying to undermine this president and sabotage the ability to wage war against this enemy, and the people who elected Republicans in this country expect them to go to Washington and understand this war is taking place and not side with them on things that hurt the president. So that's the first thing. People see that. They don't understand it, and it makes them wonder: What's the point of electing Republicans?
SENATOR CRAIG: Well, you've made a very good point, and I don't deny that. The reality is that we are at war, and we're at war with a very formidable enemy -- and, you know, my votes historically along with a lot of others have demonstrated that. I know --
RUSH: Well, what are you primarily opposed to in the Patriot Act?
SENATOR CRAIG: I'm opposed very simply, Rush, for the right of our government secretly to break into a home and to take computer files and other files and never tell the homeowner. I'm talking about a US citizen. Now, I'm willing to blink, and a lot of us are willing to blink, and we said, "Okay, you can go ahead and do that." This is under the FISA law, the federal -- the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. "We'll let you do that without telling the homeowner." That's a major step.
RUSH: Wait a second --
SENATOR CRAIG: Now, wait a moment. Within seven days after you've done it, if you find that you found nothing, and it will not damage your investigation, then you need to tell them. And if you do find something, and it will damage your investigation, then you've got to do like you do in civil or criminal law, you've got to go before a judge and say, "We have reason to believe, and here are all the facts," and the judge says, "Go forth. Be silent. Continue to investigate." That is a simple, simple request, and it is clearly a protection of our civil liberties.
RUSH: Wait a minute. I'm confused. You're coupling the Patriot Act with the FISA controversy?
SENATOR CRAIG: You bet I am because it's a major provision within the Patriot Act.
RUSH: Well, but there's been no illegality within the president in regards to any of this. This is pure propaganda, senator.
SENATOR CRAIG: No, no, no. No, no. We're talking two separate things here. You'r
Life is not for the lazy.
Here, let me install a camera in every room in your house and a gps monitoring system on your person.
You're not hiding anything, right?
Sheep...
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
According to the breaking news banner on CNN, it has been bumped down to a 1 month extension, not 6. I'm guessing it is just so they can renew the debate once recess is over.
today is spelling optional day.
not that i disagree at all, because i don't, but just to play devil's advocate, i'd like to point out that 2600 is not the most credible source one can site... (and how long has it been 2600.com?? i don't think i've even *thought* about those folks since it was 2600.org)
The House has just passed a ONE month extension, vs the six month extension of the Senate. They now get to argue over a compromise. Although GWB has not been in the mood for compromise.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
In addition, we should spend more money on electric passenger and freight railroad systems. Maybe electrically-powered freight could even replace a lot of long-distance trucks in the next 20-30 years (using roll-on roll-off cars where the trailers are driven onto the railcars). Energy itself can also be saved by people adopting more reasonable lifestyles. The majority of incandescent bulbs' power input goes into generating heat. Replace those bulbs with compact fluorescents or LEDs and you're using 25% as much energy as before for lighting (and before someone starts complaining about Hg in CF bulbs, yes, CF bulbs are recyclable). In addition, who needs a 4,000 sq ft McMansion in the suburps for a 4- or 5- person family. Maybe development will become denser and smaller and heating/AC costs will go down that way.
Drilling the ANWR is a Bandaid for a gunshot wound. It might temporarily stop the bleeding, but the patient's still going to croak without major surgery.
-b.
How to become acclimatised to facism
The best states for change at a local level are probably the old-line New England states, namely NH and VT. Low population densities, not much crime (so not much fear for politicos to play on), and a high ratio of statehouse reps to thier constituents. So a smaller number of people can choose to elect a non-mainstream rep.
VT has even elected an independent to the US House - Bernie Saunders. Saunders is one of the few senators who's unabashedly and completely against the PATRIOT Act.
-b.
Prior to 9/11, FBI Agent/Whistleblower Colleen Rowley (remember her) wrote in frustration that the FBI could not get a FISA warrant for Zacarais Moussaouie just because he only wanted to know how to maneuver a jumbo jet not take off or land; and had extensive ties to terrorists. So his laptop filled with 9/11 plans sat unexamined until the WTC came down.
Not having the Patriot Act cost 3,000 American lives. This is undisputable fact and a matter or sworn testimony before the 9/11 Commission.
The 9/11 Hijackers used Public Libraries to IM their controllers back in Pakistan secure in the knowledge that the FBI and NSA could not by law look at their comms. The Patriot Act addresses that.
It's established SOP for Al Qaeda terrorists (both the London and Madrid groups did this) to go out and buy at various places the pre-paid minute throw away cell phones; and use them only for a day before moving on to the next one; calling rotating pre-arranged contact numbers. NSA trolling through cell phone calls to known Al Qaeda contacts in Pakistan caught Ayman Al-Farris; a US citizen who planned to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge while filled with commuters. Yes Al-Farris was using those throw-away pre-paid cell phones.
We don't have people inside Al Qaeda. They all are cousins or such; extended family members who knew each other all their lives: Ramzi Yusef (1993 WTC ringleader) and Khalid Sheik Mohammed (9/11 Architect) are nephew and uncle respectively. There's no way to infiltrate these people. Signals Int and intercepts are all we have; and it's our one big advantage.
EVERY aspect of your life is already sliced and diced and sold by Choicepoint, TRW, etc without any supervision and checks and balances. Patriot Act has reviews built in; and not a single case of abuse has been cited.
Al Qaeda went up against the best of the counter-terrorism best after 9/11 and WON: London (twice); Madrid; Istanbul Turkey; Tunisia; Jordan (Amman and Sharm Al Sheik); New Delhi; as well as second stringers (Beslan, Thailand, Jakarta, Bali, Saudi, Philippines, etc). Not a single attack came off despite plans (Lodi Cell, Lackawanna Six cell, Northern Virginia Cell, LA plot to blow up Synagogues and the Federal Building on Wilshire, etc). This suggests strongly that the difference was the Patriot Act.
Look, we can throw away the Patriot Act, roving wiretaps, trolling for calls to suspected Al Qaeda numbers abroad etc; and act blind and helpless and allow Al Qaeda to attack with impunity again and again. Liberals and Dems (same thing) can push civil liberties abstracts all they want.
But people will act on their own. If terrorists start blowing themselves up in Malls and sports arenas and supermarkets, and the response is "well we can't do anything because of civil liberties" you'll just get the mob. People when it's their own ass on the line will throw away PC, Multi-culti nonsense, and all that stuff and just act according to survival mode. During the LA Riots when the LAPD ceded the streets, people sat on rooftops with rifles and shotguns to protect their property. That's what we will get without the Patriot Act:
*First Al Qaeda successful attack after attack
*The Mob acting on it's own seeing as how Government and Liberals left ordinary people to their fates.
Slashdot pretends that Al Qaeda doesn't exist; doesn't kill people, and has no interest in attacking Americans despite it's overwhelming presence all over the world since 9/11 and many, many attacks outside Iraq and Afghanistan.
After McClellen said Bush would veto a short PATRIOT 3 month extension, and after the Senate approved a 6 month extension, which the President apparently liked- the House comes in, led by Republicans to pass a 1 month extension. Will Bush veto? What the hell is even going on in Washington today?
No risk of it not being extended. Governments wont give up power like this willingly. Even if it means getting along with the 'other' party.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Neither is attacking another country to steal their oil...Oh wait...
So you think US supertankers are pulling up to the Iraqi terminals and filling up? That is better description the UN oil for food program than any US policy. You'd be closer to the truth to say that we attacked another country so middle eastern oil could continue to flow at *market prices*.
an ill wind that blows no good
Argh matey, must be Ireland then ;-) ... any country besides former Russia and USa... I guess
or Belgium
or Holland
or Southern-France
or Poland (honestly, they don't have the tech)
or
What makes you think the democrats will treat it any differently. Repub. Dem. Same difference, just power hungry groups struggling to control.
99.979%
a ts.html
Not quite the five 9's, but either they had good evidence for 18,738 different wiretaps, or the secret court rubber stamped all those requests.
http://www.epic.org/privacy/wiretap/stats/fisa_st
18,742 requests
18,738 approvals
4 rejections
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Anyone know how I can delete my above post? I clicked the wrong button
To repeat: the choice was not between "Let it die" and "Renew it." The choice was between "Keep it alive for another month so that we can have a real debate about its merits" and "Renew it now or the gubment will be powless to stop the terrists!" Under the circumstances, this is as much of a victory as could be hoped for.
Actually, your statement:
a lCollege.htm
"President is only voted for by the Electoral College, any member of whom can vote for anybody they want."
is substantially incorrect. It's much closer to your next sentence about the "all-or-none nature of each state" - 29 of the 50 states and the District of Columbia have what are called "Faithless Elector" laws, in which an elector is required by state law, and is in violation of that law, if they do not vote for the majority candidate for the state.
Further, there is no provision for apportioning electors between multiple candidates - these laws are in fact "majority rule", where all electoral votes go to a signle candidate based on the state popular vote.
Several states impose fines on electors who violate these laws, and one, New Mexico, treats it as a 4th degree felony (the penalty for a felony includes stripping certain rights of citizenship, including the right to vote in future elections, until and unless the felon is pardoned or the stripped rights are otherwise restored by an act of government).
http://www.ncsl.org/programs/legman/elect/Elector
Also, your statement:
"And the electoral college came about becuase they decided that stupid people shouldn't vote and that an intelligent person should represent their overall preference."
Isn't really that correct, although that was the rationalization used to sell the idea to the Federalists. The actual explanation has more to do with voing technology and communications delays than a plot to disenfranchise "the unwashed masses". It would have been nearly impossible, in the early days of the Republic, to communicate results from polling places to the county seat, and then to the secretary of state, and then to Washington, in under some number of months, effectively leaving us without a rubber-stamped government for large stretches of time following each election.
-- Terry
While flipping through some TV channels, I was unfortunate enough to catch a few moments of a smirking politician rambling on about freedom and liberty. What a tragic comedy. The fact politicians still have a market to spew their crap is a testament to the lack of thought of the average viewer of such pretended "news" programs.
A few minutes of thought and any literate person of any degree of intelligence would dismiss politicians as con men. However, has any "journalist" on television, radio or in print ever confronted a politician by asking him exactly what he means by freedom? Can you imagine the look on a bureaucrat's face if he was asked to define freedom or liberty?
I'm going to demonstrate how easy it is to prove government is incompatible with freedom or the protection of freedom.
I'll define the word freedom. And so I'm not accused of being biased, I'll use only "legal" definitions: "Liberty; absence of restraint." Ballentine's Law Dictionary, page 499. Look at the last word, "restraint." Liberty is "Absence of servitude and restraint." Ballentine's Law Dictionary, page 734. And "free" means: "Without restraint or coercion..." Ballentine's Law Dictionary, page 498.
Now let's define what governments do, viz., they govern:
"To direct and control; to regulate; to influence; to restrain; to manage." Ballentine's Law Dictionary, page 530.
It's correct to say freedom is "Liberty; [an] absence of" government. If there's government, there's "restraint" and therefore, no freedom. By definition, and in practice, government is anti-freedom. Keep in mind any slave had the freedom to do what his master ordered or allowed him to do; he was none the less a slave.
I know, statists (with not a shred of evidence of course) will shout government is there for protection and they're the only men and women who can. That's nonsense, as everyone with even the slightest knowledge of government should already know. There is no duty to protect anyone. And any lawyer claiming otherwise is either lying or was asleep during that part of law school. Like I say; if you doubt me, then sue the police or the "state" for failing to protect you. A team of "state" lawyers will file a motion for a failure to state a claim.
Statists argue there has to be political "laws" i.e., "restraint." Fine, then explain exactly how politicians protect freedom. Accepting such nonsense for sake of argument, statists argue themselves right out of business because it cannot be said, with a straight face, that "states" are protecting freedom and liberty because freedom and liberty do not exist when there is "restraint [and] coercion." The "restraint [and] coercion" is another reason there is no duty to protect anyone.
Statists also support the use of violence to provide and pay for a service. Statists believe it's OK to kill people to make them pay for a service that's never provided. If you doubt this, then refuse to pay taxes. A good one to not pay, if you want to demonstrate a politician's intent to kill, is the vehicle license tax. Go ahead and drive around without a tax plate on your car. See what happens when you peacefully continue to drive when the local revenue cutter puts his emergency lights on.
When NORMAL men and women provide services, even the service of protecting freedom, they do not exercise "restraint or coercion" in providing their services to their customers, thereby destroying freedom. They would not only offer their services on a mutually voluntary basis, they would not restrain us of our freedom in order to protect it i.e., they would not take away that which they want to protect.
By definition the protection of freedom cannot involve "restraint or coercion". And yet, this describes exactly how men and women doing business as a government operate. They coerce us to pay them for protection they have no obligation or intention of providing and they restrain us in millions of ways; restraint that clearly has nothing to do with protection. These smirking politicians destro
Interesting. This looks very much like a numbers station. Notice how it's structured.
HELLO WORLD -- Station identification?
51596 51596 -- One time pad?
HELLO WORLD -- Station identification?
And then the message starts.
5 numbers per group, with each group repeated once, which is very common, as well.
This has me thinking, really. Spies used to get messages like these from shortwave radio stations because shortwave can't be traced to the recipient and shortwave radios were commonplace. But shortwave radios aren't commonplace at all any longer. A website like Slashdot, on the other hand, is all but ubiquitous. EVERYBODY reads slashdot. I realize it's probably just someone messing around, but maybe the internet has become commonplace enough that we've gone from numbers stations to numbers posts.
What is the point of this fluff? Didn't Bush go on tv last week crowing about how he'll have his people spy on any citizen he pleases without any warrants, at his leisure?
It's a sad day when an elected government has to publicly make what is obviously a completely impotent decision just one week after their dictator made a diametrically opposing statement.
The contempt your government shows for your people is being gradually mirrored in Australia as well. Please stop setting a bad example for little Johnny as he's very impressionable.
This is not what I hoped for, but 6 months is probably the best the republicans can get for now. After all, 2006 is election year and everyone is switching into CYA mode. This will only hit the garbage can AFTER we elect a democratically controlled senate/house.
This will get quietly pushed through the moment the election is over. The only reason it hasn't gotten pushed through yet is that you have to kiss too many darn babies to make up for pissing on the constitution to make it worthwhile.
But here goes. *deep breath*
I think corporations and government, working in lock-step, are attempting to revert us to a serfdom/feudalist society of landed gentry once again.
Evidence:
-
DRM mechanisms preventing ownership of goods
- Recent changes to the bankruptcy laws making it more difficult for a citizen to declare (as an aside, corporate welfare and the like is alive and kicking, and costs more than my mom's bankruptcy ever will; that's just me being bitter I guess)
- CC companies have now been forced (or was it merely a forceful suggestion?) to raise minimum payments. ( One of many links) This comes shortly after the law change. Now, it's sort of coincidence but it's one of those "happy coincidences" that seem to end up with SOMEONE indicted for fraud. Heh.
There's more but I'm home for the holidays and my mom just yelled for dinner. Honest. I don't live here anymore, I'm a grown up. I even read the Economist.You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
How to silence a dang subversive pinko:
1. Allude to greater contradictory knowledge but be careful not to state any actual facts that could be attacked in replies.
2. Close by attacking the credibility of the op with what you mistakenly think is humour to simulaneously make them look bad while making yourself look less petulant in the eyes of readers.
PS. It also helps your credibility to buy an early Slashdot ID# on eBay so you look "old school"... yo! lol
In that way you're also part of the problem.. If you're willing to sit and take it without going "screw this I'm going else where" (taking all your money and taxs with you), you more or less tell the government they can do whatever they like because you'll stay if it becomes Nazis Mark 2 and you're Jews Mark 2..
I like muppets.
If Bush's actions were legal, then why did one of the FISA judges just resign in protest? The FISA court approves essentially every application it gets, and the application can come after the spying. The only reason Bush would need to bypass the secret rubber-stamp court is if he was monitoring things that even FISA would not approve. Anything of a nature that even FISA wouldn't approve would almost automatically be a serious crime, hence an impeachable offense.
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
You are so confused it is difficult to know where to begin.
Energy consumption *may* rise with economic growth.
This year economic growth was 4%. Energy usage growth was 2.2% as just proudly announced by the department of energy. Positive growth is unlikely to ever correlate with flat or negative energy usage.
In addition, we should spend more money on electric passenger and freight railroad systems. Maybe electrically-powered freight could even replace a lot of long-distance trucks in the next 20-30 years (using roll-on roll-off cars where the trailers are driven onto the railcars).
That additional power on the electric grid must come from somewhere. Hydropower? The greenies routinely block dam projects in order to protect minute populations of slim-eating crustations. Nuclear? LOL! Solar power? Not enough surface area on the planet. Wind? Greenies block wind projects to protect migrating birds. That leaves coal and gas power plants with their nasty climate altering CO2 emissions. You are back to square 1.
Energy itself can also be saved by people adopting more reasonable lifestyles.
I thought this is where your arguments for collectivism would start. Happily I am wrong.
The majority of incandescent bulbs' power input goes into generating heat. Replace those bulbs with compact fluorescents or LEDs and you're using 25% as much energy as before for lighting (and before someone starts complaining about Hg in CF bulbs, yes, CF bulbs are recyclable).
I'm with you on all of these. The 20% savings you acheive do nothing but slow energy usage growth, but grow it does.
In addition, who needs a 4,000 sq ft McMansion in the suburps for a 4- or 5- person family.Maybe development will become denser and smaller and heating/AC costs will go down that way.
Lets go a step better. Let the state build all housing and provide central power and heating. Sound good, comrade?
Drilling the ANWR is a Bandaid for a gunshot wound. It might temporarily stop the bleeding, but the patient's still going to croak without major surgery.
No, the obstinate and irrational refusal to drill ANWR is a form of liberal flagellation. They sacrifice an obvious and useful resource, and willingly accept higher gas prices, as a form of penance for their high standard of living. There is no reason not to drain it dry. Do you think the Cariboo care?
an ill wind that blows no good
To: cryptography[at]metzdowd.com
s c_sup_01_50_10_36_20_I.html
Subject: A small editorial about recent events.
From: "Perry E. Metzger"
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:58:06 -0500
A small editorial from your moderator. I rarely use this list to express a strong political opinion -- you will forgive me in this instance.
This mailing list is putatively about cryptography and cryptography politics, though we do tend to stray quite a bit into security issues of all sorts, and sometimes into the activities of the agency with the biggest crypto and sigint budget in the world, the NSA.
As you may all be aware, the New York Times has reported, and the administration has admitted, that President of the United States apparently ordered the NSA to conduct surveillance operations against US citizens without prior permission of the secret court known as the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (the "FISC"). This is in clear contravention of 50 USC 1801 - 50 USC 1811, a portion of the US code that provides for clear criminal penalties for violations. See:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/u
The President claims he has the prerogative to order such surveillance. The law unambiguously disagrees with him.
There are minor exceptions in the law, but they clearly do not apply in this case. They cover only the 15 days after a declaration of war by congress, a period of 72 hours prior to seeking court authorization (which was never sought), and similar exceptions that clearly are not germane.
There is no room for doubt or question about whether the President has the prerogative to order surveillance without asking the FISC -- even if the FISC is a toothless organization that never turns down requests, it is a federal crime, punishable by up to five years imprisonment, to conduct electronic surveillance against US citizens without court authorization.
The FISC may be worthless at defending civil liberties, but in its arrogant disregard for even the fig leaf of the FISC, the administration has actually crossed the line into a crystal clear felony. The government could have legally conducted such wiretaps at any time, but the President chose not to do it legally.
Ours is a government of laws, not of men. That means if the President disagrees with a law or feels that it is insufficient, he still must obey it. Ignoring the law is illegal, even for the President. The President may ask Congress to change the law, but meanwhile he must follow it.
Our President has chosen to declare himself above the law, a dangerous precedent that could do great harm to our country. However, without substantial effort on the part of you, and I mean you, every person reading this, nothing much is going to happen. The rule of law will continue to decay in our country. Future Presidents will claim even greater extralegal authority, and our nation will fall into despotism. I mean that sincerely. For the sake of yourself, your children and your children's children, you cannot allow this to stand.
Call your Senators and your Congressman. Demand a full investigation, both by Congress and by a special prosecutor, of the actions of the Administration and the NSA. Say that the rule of law is all that stands between us and barbarism. Say that we live in a democracy, not a kingdom, and that our elected officials are not above the law. The President is not a King. Even the President cannot participate in a felony and get away with it. Demand that even the President must obey the law.
Tell your friends to do the same. Tell them to tell their friends to do the same. Then, call back next week and the week after and the week after that until something happens. Mark it in your calendar so you don't forget about it. Politicians have short memories, and Congress is about to recess for Christmas, so you must not allow this to be forgotten. Keep at them until something happens.
Perry
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"Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
Recycled from other thread. Circulate freely.
Considering the responses of Bill Kristol, the Wall Street Journal, and others to President Bush's affirmation of warrantless domestic spying by the NSA, perhaps it's time to separate the wheat from the chaff in this America. The Rude Pundit believes a new "contract" of sorts is needed between the government and the American people. Howzabout this:
"I (the undersigned) believe President George W. Bush when he says that the United States of America is fighting a 'new kind of enemy' that requires 'new thinking' about how to wage war. Therefore, as a loyal citizen of President Bush's United States, my signature below indicates my agreement to the following:
"1. I believe wholeheartedly in the Patriot Act as initially passed by Congress in 2001, as well as the provisions of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act. Therefore, I grant the FBI access to:
"a. my library records, so it may determine if I am reading material that might designate me an enemy of the nation;
"b. my financial records, including credit reports, so it may determine if I am contributing monetarily to any governmentally proscribed activities or organizations;
"c. my medical records, so it may determine if my prescriptions, injuries, or other conditions are indicative of terrorist activity on my part;
"d. any and all other personal records including, but not limited to, my store purchases, my school records, my web browsing history, and anything else determined as a 'tangible thing' necessary to engage in a secret investigation of me.
"I agree that I do not need to be notified if my records have come under scrutiny by the FBI, and, furthermore, I agree that no warrant is needed for the FBI to engage in this examination of my personal records. Additionally, I agree that the FBI should be allowed to monitor any groups it believes may be linked to what it determines to be terrorist activity.
"2. I believe that the President of the United States has the power to mitigate any and all laws passed by the Congress and that he has such power granted to him by his status as Commander-in-Chief in the Constitution as well as the 2001 Authorization of Military Force, passed by the Congress, which states that the President can use 'all necessary and appropriate force' in prosecution of the war. Therefore, I grant the United States government the following powers:
"a. that the National Security Agency, under the direction of the President, may tap my phone lines and intercept my e-mail without warrant or FISA oversight;
"b. that the President may hold me or other detainees without access to the legal system for a period of time determined by the President or his agents;
"c. that the President may authorize physical force against me or other individual detainees in order to gain intelligence and that he may define whether such physical force may be called 'torture':
"d. that the President may set aside any and all laws he sees as hindering the gathering of intelligence and prevention of terrorist acts for a period as time determined by the President, including, but not limited to, rights to political protest.
"I agree that the Judicial and Legislative branch should be allowed no oversight of these activities, and that such oversight merely emboldens the terrorists. I also agree that virtually all of these activities may be conducted in complete secrecy and that revelation of these activities amount to treasonous behavior on the part of those who reveal these activities to the press and the citizenry.
"3. Finally, this document is my statement that I believe the President of the United States and the entire executive branch, as well as all departments and agencies involved, as well as all of its personnel, will treat these powers I have granted them with utmost respect. I believe that these powers will not be abused, nor will any of the information I have given them permission to examine be misinterpreted. However, should suc
"Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
Tom Waits Mule Variations (1999) What's He Building? What's he building in there? What the hell is he building In there? He has subscriptions to those Magazines... He never Waves when he goes by He's hiding something from The rest of us... He's all To himself... I think I know Why... He took down the Tire swing from the Peppertree He has no children of his Own you see... He has no dog And he has no friends and His lawn is dying... and What about all those packages He sends. What's he building in there? With that hook light On the stairs. What's he building In there... I'll tell you one thing He's not building a playhouse for The children what's he building In there? Now what's that sound from under the door? He's pounding nails into a Hardwood floor... and I Swear to god I heard someone Moaning low... and I keep Seeing the blue light of a T.V. show... He has a router And a table saw... and you Won't believe what Mr. Sticha saw There's poison underneath the sink Of course... But there's also Enough formaldehyde to choke A horse... What's he building In there. What the hell is he Building in there? I heard he Has an ex-wife in some place Called Mayors Income, Tennessee And he used to have a consulting business in Indonesia... but what is he building in there? What the hell is building in there? He has no friends But he gets a lot of mail I'll bet he spent a little Time in jail... I heard he was up on the Roof last night Signaling with a flashlight And what's that tune he's Always whistling... What's he building in there? What's he building in there? We have a right to know
You never catch me alive
Hmmm...I need to learn Dutch.
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
With media coverage & governments' responses, I think it becomes impossible - the 3,000 who died on 9/11 from the terrorist attacks, because they were on every news screen & in everyone's mind, were much, much more important that the 2500 or so who died of heart disease the same day. Is it rational? No, but that's emotions for you.
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
The land of wonder, the land down under.
See here. The trolls may, in fact, be encrypted messages... or may just be random numbers. Or maybe someone's using Slashdot for their drug deals; I dunno, I don't work for the NSA. Feel free to try and get CmdrTaco drunk enough to talk about whether he's gotten a national security letter over it the next time you see him.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
Attack Republicans, not Iraq!
Yeah. And cheap gas is negotiable, if you can still walk around feeling better than everyone, and pride yourself on your anger.
"Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
Perhaps thats because it's getting harder and harder to publicly support the Administrtion without sounding like a brainwashed fool.
There is nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
Actually, if I was sure the information would remain out of reach of employers, family, enemies, etc, then I'd have no problem. However, I do not have that much faith in the competence of our government regarding information security.
...it's really a sad day for America when we require a goddamn ACT OF CONGRESS to make our DVD players work properly. ~
Apparently 9/11 didn't fully take hold in the public mind. They let those bastards run two planes into the WTC and one into the pentagon. Give them what they want or they _will_ let a nuke or three slip through customs.
Fight terrorists in Iraq? Bah! The real fight is being fought right here and you and I have already lost.
All hail to our industial-military overlords!
Be heard || Be herd
Did it ever occur to you that your argument about your personal liberties not being infringed ASSUMES THE GOVT. IS ALWAYS CORRECT? Maybe you're not involved in anything, but does that mean W & everyone else down to the local PD are fully aware of that?
I wish the people who are so damned terrified about the "tarrarists" would just go live in a maximum security prison so they could be protected 24/7 and the rest of us could take our chances in the free world. When did this country completely lose its balls? Were people this gutless in WWII? Everyone hiding under the bed and hoping Big Brother would protect them?
I was referring, with some degree of sarcasm, to the "Church of George".
Thomas Jefferson:
Now follow me here. George Bush goes to the Middle East and says in an upfront way: "I started this war and I will finish this war because God told me to do it." George Bush is a Christian. For that matter, more generally, he is a member of a religious denomination that believes in God.Now let me ask you, "Do you pay taxes voluntarily?" No, you do not. You are compelled to pay taxes. (Indeed this line of reasoning could be used in a court to try to establish that it would be unlawful to be forced to pay taxes because of the following conclusion that I will make.)
Your tax dollars paid for the Gulf War, and they are paying for the war in Iraq right now. You have been compelled to furnish contributions of money for a war that was started by George Bush because it is his opinion that God told him to do it. In other words, George Bush as the leader of the executive branch made a legal (law) declaration that establishes a legal endorsement of his particular religious beliefs.
First Ammendment of the Constitution:
There it is. If your particular religion is not his--perhaps you do not believe in God at all, not only has he done something unconstitutional, but he has done something which one of the founding fathers of our nation explicitly state was tyrannical. He is forcing you to make a monetary endorsement of his religious beliefs.I'm not cruising for a bruising here, so I will just say that this particular line of thought might give one pause to think that maybe something is a bit wrong. I can tell you for certain that if he put the words he said to those Middle Eastern leaders in the declaration of war, the judicial branch would be going nuts.
You've lost me in that "I'm part of the problem". I'm not sitting, but taking action, by voicing my opinions about the facts as I uncover them. I act with my vote, my wallet and my taxes (again with my vote). Yes, here on Slashdot I hide behind a "moniker" but in my community I am openly public about my views. How does bailing and running contribute to the fix? [I'm neither karma Nazi or Jewish ;) Have a nice day! ]
Please mod me 1 or troll. It's where the truth is these days, even on Slashdot. Beware the power of moderators everywh
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4320586.stm.
The denomination of the majority of the population is not a justification for setting United States policy according to that faith's tenets. That is specifically interdicted by the Constitution: "The Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." The line that cannot be crossed is the one where policy validates a particular religion's beliefs as truth.The "Will of the People" is an excellent argument, because the Constitution is the legal document of the United States. It is the strongest statement of the "Will of the People" that this nation has. The judicial power of the nation is vested in the Supreme Court of the United States and it is the ultimate arbiter of the word and intent of this one document (Article 3). The Constitution provides a mechanism by which the Constitution itself may be altered, should the the values of society change substantially enough to warrant it (Article 5). It is for this reason that your argument in 4 is poor.
You presume in your first point and you wager in your second. I do not presume or wager in my points. I read the Constitution. I read the transcripts of the President's communications on www.whitehouse.gov, and I read material from reputable news sources like the BBC. I also read the text of most judgements handed down by the Supreme Court.
If I had to wager anything, I would wager that these sources are a more accurate reflection of what is true about our nation than you are.