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First Draft of GPL Version 3 Released

njan writes "The first draft of version three of the GNU General Public License was released to the public this afternoon. Major improvements touted in version three include changes designed to mitigate the damage posed by new threats to free software such as software patents. One individual stated about the release: 'It is changes in law, not computer technology, that pose the principal challenges to the free software community. Chief among these changes has been the unwise and ill-considered application of patent law to software. Software patents threaten every free software project, just as they threaten proprietary software and custom software. Any program can be destroyed or crippled by a software patent belonging to someone who has no other connection to the program.'"

482 of 575 comments (clear)

  1. Other issues by Renegade+Lisp · · Score: 5, Informative
    The slashdot summary does not quite get the proportions right. Yes, the v3 draft does refine how the GPL deals with patents, but that is only one of many issues in this draft. (I've compiled the list below from cursory reading of the new license and the rationale that accompanies it, before it was slashdotted.)
    • There is a proposal in it that would discourage or disable the use of GPL software for DRM, by stating that software under the new GPL cannot constitute an "effective technological protection measure". Thus it would always be possible for other programs to get at the same data without falling under the DMCA.
    • When it comes to patents, the draft is actually not very aggressive about them. There is no general patent retaliation clause as in some other licenses, because the FSF believes that disallowing an offender to use any free software would not be too much of a deterrent for some.
    • Compatibility between the new GPL and other free software licenses will generally be better.
    • The idea of what constitutes source code and object code is refined. This, I think, is mostly intended to deal with the case when software is used over the web, rather than downloaded and installed.
    1. Re:Other issues by mctk · · Score: 1

      General patent retaliation clause? Source code vs object code?

      --
      Paul Grosfield - the quicker picker upper.
    2. Re:Other issues by Otter · · Score: 5, Insightful
      There is a proposal in it that would discourage or disable the use of GPL software for DRM, by stating that software under the new GPL cannot constitute an "effective technological protection measure".

      I'd be curious to see what an objective lawyer has to say about the enforceability of that clause. Being an "effective technological protection measure" seems like a matter that can't be waived, any more than my signing a stipulation that I wasn't born in August affects my birthday.

    3. Re:Other issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      When it comes to patents, the draft is actually not very aggressive about them. There is no general patent retaliation clause as in some other licenses, because the FSF believes that disallowing an offender to use any free software would not be too much of a deterrent for some.

      I'm glad they stepped off this one. The stuff I was reading at one time seemed quite a bit draconian about it and, to put it mildly, quite hypocritical when they say "free/open/libre" software but then "you can't use it".

    4. Re:Other issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There is a proposal in it that would discourage or disable the use of GPL software for DRM, by stating that software under the new GPL cannot constitute an "effective technological protection measure". Thus it would always be possible for other programs to get at the same data without falling under the DMCA.

      I read that a little differently. Because the license, picked by the original copyright holder, categorically states that it is not a technological protection measure, it can't be used in software that has the protections of the DMCA. This isn't so interesting.

      However, when you remember that derivative works are similarly bound, you realise that the end effect is that any organisation who wishes to attack reverse-engineers with the DMCA is forbidden from building their copy protection on top of any GPL 3 software.

      I don't think this is about opening things up, I think this is about giving companies an ultimatum - either give up on abusing the DMCA, or you can't have any of our source code.

    5. Re:Other issues by dgatwood · · Score: 3, Insightful
      On the issue of distribution, am I the only one bothered by the vagueness of this line:

      The output from running it is covered by this License only if the output, given its content, constitutes a work based on the Program.

      What in the world is that supposed to mean? Based on the source code of the program? Does inserting XML markup constitute a work based on the program, then? Because those tags were part of the program source code? This is really, really vague in a legally scary way.

      I'm also a little bothered by the language that anything with a user interface must have an about box with copyright notice. What if the original didn't? Shouldn't it say that this information must be preserved, rather than saying that it must contain one? It's also a little troubling to think about how this could affect web services, since user interface isn't defined in a way so as to exclude it. This still doesn't explicitly clear up that issue.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    6. Re:Other issues by jmv · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think I understand what they're trying to do with this. Without the clause, I could (theoretically) take a GPL program, add "pseudo-DRM" to it and then sue whoever removes that DRM from the (GPL) code using the DMCA. With the clause, I'm "forced" (if I want to distribute the program) to state that my stuff isn't an "effective technological protection measure" (which I assume is the phrasing of the DMCA). Would be much harder to defend in a court "Yes, I know we say in the license that it's not an effective technological protection measure, but we for the purpose of this lawsuit, we would like to change our mind...". Anyway, I'm not sure how strong a protection it offers, but I can't see that really hurting anyone.

    7. Re:Other issues by Erioll · · Score: 1
      On the issue of distribution, am I the only one bothered by the vagueness of this line:

      The output from running it is covered by this License only if the output, given its content, constitutes a work based on the Program.

      What in the world is that supposed to mean? Based on the source code of the program? Does inserting XML markup constitute a work based on the program, then? Because those tags were part of the program source code? This is really, really vague in a legally scary way.

      I would guess that this is for things like compilers, documentation, etc, rather than a more-strict clause. For example if it said "No output from this program is covered by this licence", then somebody could literally run the source code from some program that can "cat" itself that's under GNU3 and say "well, it's cleaned of a licence now!" Stupid, but hey, you never know what somebody might try and claim.

      So I think it has to do with programs that would output their own, or other people's code that's covered, basically by saying it doesn't "strip" it of any licences it already has. Though like I said, that's a guess.
    8. Re:Other issues by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1
      No covered work constitutes part of an effective technological protection measure: that is to say, distribution of a covered work as part of a system to generate or access certain data constitutes general permission at least for development, distribution and use, under this License, of other software capable of accessing the same data.
      It doesn't say that you can't make a DRM protection measure out of the GPL'd code. What it says is that if you redistribute the GPL'd code, then you agree not to use it as such a measure, because you agree to not try to prevent people accessing the data by other means. If you don't agree, that's fine, but then you have no right to redistribute the GPL'd code.
    9. Re:Other issues by AuMatar · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Not quite. What they want to do is make it legal to try and decypt content GPLed code protects. By stating they are not an effective protection method, they are not covered by the DMCA. Therefor, you can try and remove the encryption from any content that the program produced (possibly any content it can read?). As for legality, I'd think its fairly strong- whoever releases it under the GPL license is voluntarily agreeing to this, and thus waiving the rights to sue under the DMCA (remember, breaking the DMCA is not a criminal act, but a civil tort).

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    10. Re:Other issues by Trejkaz · · Score: 1

      Compatibility between the new GPL and other free software licenses will generally be better.

      Now that's what I like to hear. Specifically: is the CPL now compatible? We've been waiting for SWT/Qt for YEARS now and the licence incompatibility is the only excuse the Eclipse team are offering.

      --
      Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
    11. Re:Other issues by jmv · · Score: 1

      This is exactly what I wrote. ;-)

    12. Re:Other issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I'd be curious to see what an objective lawyer has to say about the enforceability of that clause. Being an "effective technological protection measure" seems like a matter that can't be waived, any more than my signing a stipulation that I wasn't born in August affects my birthday.

      This objective lawyer agrees with your initial impression. I searched to the section of the draft that expressed this issue, confident that because there were attorneys working on the draft, it couldn't possibly express this concept in the language that others have used in the comments. I was wrong:

      No covered work constitutes part of an effective technological protection
      measure: that is to say, distribution of a covered work as part of a system
      to generate or access certain data constitutes general permission at least
      for development, distribution and use, under this License, of other
      software capable of accessing the same data.


      Statutory definitions cannot be changed by contract. Period. If you and I sign a contract that defines our upcoming battle royale on the street in front of my house as a "sporting event", we can still assuredly be arrested for assault and battery upon each other (at the very least). This language expresses an objective that is analogous to that hypothetical.

      Imagine this:

      1. Programmer A writes software that would be an effective technological measure but for this clause.
      2. Programmer A distributes said software in combination with Copyright Owner B's work under license (as if this wasn't uncommon) as Work Z. For the argument's sake, let's assume that the copyrighted work is stored in separate data files that are distributed with the object code, but not the source code.
      3. Programmer C uses said software to access Work Z without 'permission'.

      The license extends between Programmer A and Programmer C. The license does nothing to bind Copyright Owner B. Yet the language from sec 1201 of the DMCA (the anticircumvention provisions) states that the person that must give permission is the copyright owner.

      ''(3) As used in this subsection--
      ''(A) to 'circumvent a technological measure' means to
      descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted work, or
      otherwise to avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate, or impair a technological
      measure, without the authority of the copyright owner;
      and
      ''(B) a technological measure 'effectively controls access to a
      work' if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, requires
      the application of information, or a process or a treatment,
      with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain access
      to the work.


      This means that if I represent Copyright Owner B, I can sue Programmer B and any other unauthorized person who accesses Work Z using Programmer A's source, or a derivative work created from that source, even if Programmer A cannot. If you believe that Programmer A's implied-by-license permission is sufficient to protect a third party from a lawsuit, think again. The third party is the one violating the copyright by accessing the work without authorization, and by presumably making at least a transient copy of the copyrighted work. Any lawyer will tell you that Programmer A cannot sell/distribute/convey rights greater than the rights that have been granted to him/her, just like Programmer A cannot sell Copyright Owner B's house to Programmer C.

      Oops.
    13. Re:Other issues by Otter · · Score: 1
      I understand what you're saying, but that's not what I understood the text to mean. (See jmv's sibling response to yours -- what he and AuMatar think it means is the same thing I do, despite the fact that one is trying to argue with me and the other with him.)

      If your reading is the intended one, they need to state it more clearly.

    14. Re:Other issues by Bogtha · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What in the world is that supposed to mean? Based on the source code of the program? Does inserting XML markup constitute a work based on the program, then? Because those tags were part of the program source code?

      No. In some rare instances, programs actually output part of themselves as part of normal operation. I think Bison is the canonical example. This is different to mere string literals that form part of the output.

      Current versions of the GPL have the same thing in them. It's frustrating because it seems intended to assure the reader that output isn't restricted - in fact it cannot be restricted by copyright - it would be like Microsoft holding the copyright to anything created with Word. Unfortunately, there's a minority of programs that function in this odd way, so they have to be mentioned as an exception.

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    15. Re:Other issues by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's muddled right now. First it says that any DRM applied is not the type of DRM protected by the DMCA. Then it says that what it means is that permission is granted for circumvention. That's not the same thing, though I think it should have statements indicating that the licensee is agreeing that any DRM is ineligible for protection and that alternatively, permission to circumvent it is given.

      Of course, this doesn't help enough, IMO. Let's say that someone released a movie under the GPL, and that it was on DVD and encrypted with CSS. Even though everyone has permission to circumvent it under the GPL, and the author is stating that CSS -- as used there -- is unprotected, this doesn't help. Third party movie studios can still claim that CSS is effective, and that a tool used to decrypt CSS, being just as able to circumvent the DRM on their movies as on the GPL'ed movie, is unlawful under the trafficking provisions of the statute. Thus, by using a commonplace DRM system, even though a person is releasing a work under the GPL, the DRM is still effective in keeping people from circumventing it even though they have a right to do so.

      Better for the GPL to simply deny licensees the right to use DRM of any kind on relevant works.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    16. Re:Other issues by Max+Threshold · · Score: 1
      There is a proposal in it that would discourage or disable the use of GPL software for DRM, by stating that software under the new GPL cannot constitute an "effective technological protection measure".

      Could this be broadly (mis)interpreted to mean that you can't license a cryptography program under the GPL?

    17. Re:Other issues by Otter · · Score: 1
      What both of you are saying is what I wrote in the first place!

      I agree that the scenario you mentioned could cause some mild embarassment in court, but I'd still be very surprised if it were legally binding.

    18. Re:Other issues by Renegade+Lisp · · Score: 1
      Could this be broadly (mis)interpreted to mean that you can't license a cryptography program under the GPL?

      No, I don't think so, because they follow that statement with an explanation of how it should be understood:

      No covered work constitutes part of an effective technological protection measure: that is to say, distribution of a covered work as part of a system to generate or access certain data constitutes general permission at least for development, distribution and use, under this License, of other software capable of accessing the same data.

      So you can license cryptography programs under it all you want, it's just that it won't be illegal per se to write a program that breaks that encryption.

    19. Re:Other issues by 2nd+Post! · · Score: 1

      Here's the interesting bit then.

      Is DRM bad only because it is a technological means of enforcing a license?
      In other words, the GPL is okay because it's a social mechanism, with the threat of law and legal action, while Fairplay isn't okay because it's a technical mechanism?

      In other words, if technology existed that enforced the GPL, isn't that DRM?
      Or isn't the GPL another type of "digital rights/restrictions management", since it covers source code?

    20. Re:Other issues by SquadBoy · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The DMCA is evil evil evil. Don't get me wrong there.

      But...

      Doing this in a "Free Software" license is just fucking stupid. Yet one more reason to use a BSD style license.

      Clearly the GPL is becoming a "free if we like what you are doing and you are in step with our agenda" license.

      --

      Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
    21. Re:Other issues by jonwil · · Score: 1

      Something I think is essential for the new GPL is a provision that makes it illegal to use GPL software if, in order to run, the software requires being digitally signed or otherwise protected unless the keys are available (this would target trusted computing)

    22. Re:Other issues by orkysoft · · Score: 1

      So, legally, an encryption scheme that can be broken by a five-line Perl script is considered "effective"?

      --

      I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
    23. Re:Other issues by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Thus, by using a commonplace DRM system, even though a person is releasing a work under the GPL, the DRM is still effective in keeping people from circumventing it even though they have a right to do so.

      Better for the GPL to simply deny licensees the right to use DRM of any kind on relevant works.


      Which means that RIAA/MPAA etc. will not touch it, GPLv3 code will be considered completely tainted for commercial enterprises and be completely thrown out of any headway it has made in the corporate sector. If a movie is protected by party A, and party B creates a circumvention tool it doesn't matter what license he distributes to party C under. If you believe rights granted by a license can in any way trumph a law, you are sadly mistaken. They will all be illegal under the DMCA, unless you can force the copyright holder to be a party to the licensee. And since one protection mechanism protects many works, probably even more than that since a tool would unlock all of them, you may need all of them to be licensees. Because everyone that is not could still file lawsuits under the DMCA.

      Imagine that IBM needs a webserver. They can a) use a proprietary one or b) have their legal team to a full analysis of the possible current and future legal implications for the whole company. Yeah. Right. The GPLv2 is quite limited in scope to the program and it's libraries. If one license requires company-wide commitment to some terms, the license is DOA.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    24. Re:Other issues by jmv · · Score: 1

      Third party movie studios can still claim that CSS is effective

      They never intended to protect against 3rd parties (they can't). They're only trying to prevent a person/company from distributing GPL DRM software and then suing when someone removes the DRM from it.

    25. Re:Other issues by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I misread it. I thought it said someone could add DRM to the code, then sue someone who distributed versions of the code with no DRM. I didn't see you meant the content and stripping the DRM from the content.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    26. Re:Other issues by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      This is a license, not a contract. Yes, there's a difference.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    27. Re:Other issues by NutscrapeSucks · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, because the law actually defines what "effective" means in this case. (ie, it's effective because you can't copy DVDs under the normal operation of the device.)

      Which is why this GPL provision seems a little dubious because an "effective technological protection measure" would be descriptive of a programs function, independant of what the license said.

      --
      Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
    28. Re:Other issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      This is a license, not a contract. Yes, there's a difference.

      The lawer asks that you explain this difference.
      The lawyer knows that you will not be able to explain this difference.
      The lawyer can cite several cases that explain how a license is merely a contract covenanting that the licensor will not exercise their legal rights against the licensee.

      The lawyer looks forward to your reply.

    29. Re:Other issues by fossa · · Score: 1

      If GPL3 does what your parent claims it does, then it's entirely in keeping with the spirit of the GPL. The GPL's goal is to require that a binary always include source code (if the use of the binary asks). Requiring the user to violate the DMCA in order to get the source code is clearly a problem.

    30. Re:Other issues by Breakfast+Pants · · Score: 1

      The bit where someone can have an optional requirement that a function return the source code (envisioned as helping bring the spirit of the GPL to web services) is utterly useless. You can take someone's code, make changes, and make your code have that function that reveals all the source, including the changes you made, and then just pass everything through a proxy that handily passes every function call except that one. This new requirement adds no protection whatsoever, it will just be a useless burden.

      --

      --

      WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
    31. Re:Other issues by LetterRip · · Score: 1

      What is interesting is that the 'or later' clause of GPL 2 - I would think means that GPL software used for previous DMCA encryption would be subject to GPL 3 disclaimer...

      LetterRip

    32. Re:Other issues by greppling · · Score: 1
      The slashdot summary does not quite get the proportions right.

      Wow, you have worries. If once in a while the summary is both correct and does have something to do with tfa, I rather feel like it's time to celebrate...

    33. Re:Other issues by pavon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      True, but consider this example. You want to join a club. Their membership contract states that members of this club cannot have been born in August. You can't sign the contract and then say that you are a member of the club, and therefore your birthday is no longer in August. The fact that your birthday is in August would prevent you from joining the club, and thus from recieving any of the advantages that membership brings.

      This is the same thing. If the software you wrote is an "effective technological protection measure", then you cannot release it under the GPL. Furthermore, this implies that you cannot link against any other software released under the GPL.

      If you were to attempt to use GPL software (say an encryption library) to create a DRM package, you would be in violation of the GPL. At that point, you would be forced to stop using the encryption library in your package, and could be liable for damages.

      At least that is the way I read it on first glance.

    34. Re:Other issues by sepluv · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Note that that statement is immediately followed by:
      distribution of a covered work as part of a system to generate or access certain data constitutes general permission at least for development, distribution and use, under this License, of other software capable of accessing the same data.
      IMO, that means, by distributing the work under GPLv3 you state that you give others permission to circumvent any effective technological measures (as well as stating that the work does not contain anyway).
      --
      Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
      [This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
    35. Re:Other issues by sepluv · · Score: 1

      Contracts require acceptance and cannot be unilateral. Licenses do not and are, therefore a license cannot be a contract.

      --
      Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
      [This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
    36. Re:Other issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You are wrong. Contracts can be unilateral. One party binds themself to a promise to perform or to refrain from performing in exchange for performance.

      See Bilateral vs. Unilateral Contracts

      I don't understand why people on Slashdot insist upon arguing with a lawyer about the law. Do you challenge NBA basketball players to slam dunk contests as well?

    37. Re:Other issues by samkass · · Score: 1
      When it comes to patents, the draft is actually not very aggressive about them. There is no general patent retaliation clause as in some other licenses, because the FSF believes that disallowing an offender to use any free software would not be too much of a deterrent for some.


      ANY patent retaliation clause is EXTREMELY aggressive about patents. If I'm using a GPL suite for my web presence, and someone else adds code that infringes on one of my patents, in order to sue them I have to stop using the GPL'ed suite? No thanks.

      This revision of the GPL looks like a shot in the foot just when open source was starting to catch on. Hopefully it will be dramatically revised and made more friendly to industry before going live. Either that, or I see a fork in every commercially viable GPL'ed project in existence.
      --
      E pluribus unum
    38. Re:Other issues by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think you're misunderstanding me.

      Let us say that Alice makes a DVD encrypted with CSS. Bob makes a different DVD encrypted with CSS, and which is licensed under the GPL. Carol makes and distributes copies of DeCSS. And Dave wants to use Bob's work pursuant to the GPL.

      Dave can circumvent CSS in order to decrypt Bob's DVD, per the GPL. He can arguably even make a tool (such as DeCSS) in order to do so, provided that he keeps it to himself. But Carol cannot make or distribute versions of DeCSS because Alice will sue her (and win). This means that if Dave is unable to make his own DeCSS, the fact that he is legally allowed to circumvent CSS is moot because he cannot do so as a practical matter.

      Therefore, I suggest that the GPL state that works covered by the GPL may not be DRM'ed at all. This doesn't extend to all the works Bob has made or will make, which is where you seem to have gotten confused. Bob would be free to make one DVD with CSS which is not under the GPL, and free to make another DVD under the GPL, but without CSS.

      Since it's not safe to assume that Dave will be able to meaningfully take advantage of his rights under the GPL, vis-a-vis DRM'ed works, I think the appropriate thing to do is to make sure that the GPL and DRM are exclusive of one another.

      This also means that if Dave makes his own version of Bob's DVD, he could not add DRM to it (which might block Bob as well as other users).

      Fundamentally, I think that allowing GPL'ed works to be DRM'ed is contrary to the goals of the GPL.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    39. Re:Other issues by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And I'm saying that if you have GPL'ed DRM'ed software, then it might as well not be GPL'ed because people who use the same DRM and not the GPL will sue people who take advantage of their rights under the GPL.

      It's better to avoid the problem and ensure that GPL'ed software is honestly free by not allowing it to be DRM'ed at all.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    40. Re:Other issues by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nah, it's basically an admission. I don't think it's dubious in that respect, since non-effectiveness will be treated as a fact from the get-go.

      My concern is that I don't think this part of the GPL will actually work. I think it will backfire in that people can take GPL'ed software, apply DRM to it (or their modifications of it) and effectively prevent anyone from making future modifications to it despite the fact that it is GPL'ed.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    41. Re:Other issues by sepluv · · Score: 1
      I'm talking UK law here BTW (but I think US is much the same on contracts).

      My basis for my statement was what I've been told by lawyers, but, looking at the first in-depth site I happened to come across on this subject, one clearly can have certain kinds of unilateral contracts as an exception to the normal rule.

      However, AFAICC, that doesn't mean the GNU GPL is a unilateral contract, as it doesn't seem to make use of this exception, defining itself in the different terms of an open permission which one doesn't do anything to accept, even by implication (as opposed to saying "This is a contract which you accept by doing foo").

      (I'm a bit sleep deprived, so hopefully that made some sense.)

      --
      Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
      [This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
    42. Re:Other issues by Timothy+Brownawell · · Score: 1
      There is a proposal in it that would discourage or disable the use of GPL software for DRM, by stating that software under the new GPL cannot constitute an "effective technological protection measure".

      [...] Being an "effective technological protection measure" seems like a matter that can't be waived, any more than my signing a stipulation that I wasn't born in August affects my birthday.

      "Please note that since source code will be available for any GPL "technological protection measure", it will be very much ineffective."

      Tim

    43. Re:Other issues by sepluv · · Score: 1
      BTW, I think it can make a difference whether it defines itself as a license or a contract.

      As copyright law does not require you to have a contract with someone (just permission) for them to use the software without violating copyright law, if it is not a contract, then someone who does something outside the scope of the GPL to a work only licensed under the GPL has violated copyright law and is subject to its penalties.

      However, I understand that if the GPL defines itself as a contract, the courts could treat such actions as contract violations so the court can choose how the violation is recompensed and don't have to give statutory damages (as under copyright law). This is, from my memory, I believe Eben Moglen's justification for the not-a-contract clause.

      --
      Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
      [This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
    44. Re:Other issues by Sneftel · · Score: 1

      Heh. Thanks, that's gotta be the funniest thing I've read all day.

      A: I am a lawyer. Here's a well-reasoned five paragraph essay detailing the issue in layman's terms, including examples.
      B: Yeah...well...there's a difference between a license and a contract! Betcha didn't know that!!
      A: Uh, I did mention I was a lawyer, right?

      --
      The opinions stated herein do not necessarily represent those of anybody at all. Deal with it.
    45. Re:Other issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      The GPL is a contract between a licensor and a licensee. There is an offer, an acceptance, and binding consideration. As in all unilateral contracts, the licensee's performance satisfying the conditions of the contract constitutes both an acceptance of the contract and substantial consideration that binds the licensor to their promise.

      1. The licensor offers the licensee the right to use, modify, and under certain conditions redistribute the software distributed under the GPL. If the licensee refuses to perform according to the terms of the GPL, then there is no contract and the 'licensee' can be sued for copyright infringement.

      2. The licensee accepts the terms of the license through performance, by treating the software according to the terms and conditions set out in the GPL, and thereby gains the right to use, modify, and redistribute the software under the GPL. If the licensor attempts to sue the licensee, the licensor must demonstrate that the licensee has violated the terms of the GPL in order to claim any type of relief (an injunction prohibiting redistribution, damages for copyright infringement, an order to disclose the modified software, etc.).

      3. Acceptance binds the licensor to their promise. After an initial distribution (offer and acceptance), the licensor cannot change the license terms in violation of the license, terminate the license to the licensee, or force any licensee redistributing the software to cease redistribution of the software under the original license (the GPL).

      That, my friends, is the definition of a unilateral contract as you will find it in any reputable contracts textbook that is based upon English common law (including the United States, Canada, etc.) The only difference between the GPL and an insurance contract, which is another instance of a unilateral contract, is that instead of one party promising to do something only after the other party performs a particular act, one party promises not to do something if the other party refrains for performing particular acts. Any lawyer will tell you that promising to perform a particular act and promising not to perform a particular act are both legitimate consideration in the law of contracts.*

      * If you know about the pre-existing duty rule, then you know too much to legitimately quibble with the general proposition expressed in this paragraph.

    46. Re:Other issues by sepluv · · Score: 1

      I already understand your interpretation of the GNU GPL. What I was saying in the grandparent though was that the GNU GPL says that is not the interpretation that one should make of it. (Also note the aunt post.) Does this not make that interpretation invalid? (I don't know.)

      --
      Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
      [This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
    47. Re:Other issues by NutscrapeSucks · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't know if I see it that way. (hang on for typical /. car analogy) If the law says automobiles must have 5MPH bumpers, Ford can't just hand you a piece of paper that says "You agree that this is not an automobile". Either it is or it ain't, legally.

      Better would have been "You agree to waive enforcement of your rights to use this software as an effective technological protection measure".

      I do agree this does nothing against trusted-boot DRM systems, like Tivo, where the enforcement is entirely outside the GPL software.

      --
      Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
    48. Re:Other issues by Bombcar · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "Please note that since source code will be available for any GPL "technological protection measure", it will be very much ineffective."


      Not necessarily.

      GNU Privacy Guard source is available but you'd have a hell of a time decrypting a message without the private key and passphrase. Truly usable DRM (i.e, the best of the evilest) would be perfectly save if the source is public. The keys would be the important thing. Then all you need is hardware that is Trusted(TM).
    49. Re:Other issues by penguin-collective · · Score: 1

      IANAL, but, to use your analogy, the license doesn't say "please guarantee that your birthday isn't in August", it says "your birthday must not be in August", which translates into "if your birthday is in August, you do not get a license to distribute this software".

    50. Re:Other issues by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't know if I see it that way. (hang on for typical /. car analogy) If the law says automobiles must have 5MPH bumpers, Ford can't just hand you a piece of paper that says "You agree that this is not an automobile". Either it is or it ain't, legally.

      It's a little different.

      Parties in a suit can stipulate as to various facts. This means that they agree, and therefore the court doesn't have to look into that fact. For example, if you sell me a car, and I sue over some defect that causes me injury, we might stipulate that some parts of the car are not involved, or are in their original condition. The case would then be restricted to just those areas that we are in disagreement over.

      This would work the same way. A copyright holder can't sue for circumvention unless they claim that there is an effective TPM. If they've already stipulated that there isn't, it shuts them down right there.

      It's not really equivalent to your analogy, since there's no requirement that works are encumbered with DRM or that it is effective. It's not like a regulation for safety purposes or something where there is an interest in protecting customers from themselves (if they agreed that they wanted to buy an unsafe car).

      In any event, I'm sticking by my guns in that I think that the GPL should be totally exclusive of DRM. They're not reconcilable, and frankly, the latter should be wiped out. There is not a middle ground or acceptable compromise, IMO.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    51. Re:Other issues by jmv · · Score: 1

      It's better to avoid the problem and ensure that GPL'ed software is honestly free by not allowing it to be DRM'ed at all.

      They can't do it directly, because they would 1) need to have a good definition of DRM and 2) it would mean you can't modify the code any way you like. The clause they include is good because they make sure nobody can use the law (e.g. DMCA) to prevent you from modifying a piece of GPL code (removing DRM).

      With the current GPL, I could take GPL movie player and add a feature to decrypt my DRM format. Now, anyone who simply modifies my GPL DRM version could be sued under the DMCA. The code is GPL, but nobody is allowed to modify it (remove DRM part), which goes against the spirit of the GPL. With the new clause, if I add DRM stuff in the code, the license "makes me say" that it isn't really DRM in the first place, so it's harder for me to sue if someone removes it.

    52. Re:Other issues by superiority · · Score: 1

      You're misunderstanding. The point is not just to give you maximum freedom (which the BSD licence does do), but to give everyone maximum freedom, and so the GPL prevents your ability to take those freedoms away from anybody else. Hence, the licence makes the software "free, but as long as it is free to everybody else as well".

    53. Re:Other issues by NutscrapeSucks · · Score: 1

      OK -- maybe a more topical analogy: "You agree that linking to these headers/IDL will create a 'derived work' under copyright law".

      I would just assume that's a factual matter for the judge to determine, rather than something that could be specified by a contract. But what do I know.

      --
      Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
    54. Re:Other issues by NutscrapeSucks · · Score: 1

      > Requiring the user to violate the DMCA in order to get the source code is clearly a problem.

      A DMCA Technical Measure generally has nothing to do with protecting it's own source code.

      The intent of the clause is to preserve the right to reverse-engineer GPL code to get at whatever data it is protecting.

      --
      Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
    55. Re:Other issues by sco08y · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why people on Slashdot insist upon arguing with a lawyer about the law. Do you challenge NBA basketball players to slam dunk contests as well?

      A "lawyer" citing Wikipedia. Only on /..

    56. Re:Other issues by jbolden · · Score: 1

      You are forgetting one thing. Alice can't sue and beat Carol for distributing the tool to Dave since Carol can show that his DeCSS tool has multiple uses only some of which violate Alice's rights; in particular Bob can testify to this.

    57. Re:Other issues by jbolden · · Score: 1

      No its generally bad because it enforces an illegal license which is often far stricter than the purchaser ever agreed to. The history of copy protected software shows this clearly.

    58. Re:Other issues by zcat_NZ · · Score: 1

      'reverse-engineer' ?

      If someone adds DRM code to GPL software, that code would itself legally fall under the GPL. They'd have to distribute source, and they'd have to accept that under the terms of the GPL, anyone would be allowed to REMOVE the code that impliments DRM or modify it to allow copying of the un-DRM'd data.

      The MAFIAA (RIAA/MPAA) might respond "OK, we know that under the GPL we have to give you the source and allow you to modify it, but if you modify the code in a way that defeats the DRM we'll use the DMCA against you"

      Except that now, as well as allowing you to modify it under the terms of the GPL, they have to acknowledge that the open-source nature of the software makes any DRM protection trivial to remove and therefore ineffective, so the DMCA does not apply either.

      Does that make more sense?

      --
      455fe10422ca29c4933f95052b792ab2
    59. Re:Other issues by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I'm afraid you're incorrect.

      As an example, here is 17 USC 1201(a)(2):
      (2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that--
      (A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;
      (B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; or
      (C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.


      Since the the statute uses the word 'or,' a product that satisfies any one criterion is unlawful to traffic in; satisfaction of all three criteria is not required.

      The main problem is (a)(2)(B). Just because there are lawful uses to which a circumvention product may be put (such as in conjunction with a GPL'ed work or public domain works) that still tends to leave it with a limited commercially significant use. The Reimerdes court considered whether DeCSS could be lawful to traffic in, given that it could be used not only unlawfully to circumvent DRM for copyrighted movies, but also lawfully to circumvent DRM for public domain movies. Nevertheless, this was not a significant enough use, and DeCSS was not saved.

      Therefore, Alice can sue Carol successfully, because there are a lot of Alices, and few Bobs.
      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    60. Re:Other issues by flonker · · Score: 1

      I think the issue is more than this.

      Company A makes a project that can save files.

      Company B takes A's project, and adds encryption with a set key to the saved files, and releases the source.

      Company A retrieves the key from B's source, and adds the capability of opening B's files.

      Company B sues company A for bypassing an "effective technological protection measure" under the DMCA.

    61. Re:Other issues by Pofy · · Score: 1

      >First it says that any DRM applied is not the type of DRM protected by
      >the DMCA.

      Is the GPL only intended for US? What about other countries with different or similar laws? ALso, the law tend to define what is, for example, an effective protection, you can't change that definition yourself.

    62. Re:Other issues by sp3tt · · Score: 2, Funny

      " What both of you are saying is what I wrote in the first place!"

      Sue them for copyright infringement.

    63. Re:Other issues by stivi · · Score: 1
      "If you were to attempt to use GPL software (say an encryption library) to create a DRM package, you would be in violation of the GPL. At that point, you would be forced to stop using the encryption library in your package, and could be liable for damages."

      I understand the new GPL the same way. Unfortunately.

      At the beginning, I was completely against DRM, until I came to a problem: I wanted to do do something through internet what I can do in the real life. In real life, you can easily show a document to someone, let him look at some diagrams, pages, etc. and not let him take the document with him, nor keep or copy the diagrams. It is quite real situation, besides others, you can imagine a session with your potential business partner, where you are showing him a proposal... At this moment, I have not seen any way how I can do that electronically.

      I would appreciate an application/system that would allow me to do that. The application should be free as in both, beer or freedom, so anyone can use it - something like Acrobat reader. An application where I would be able to define what should be done to the document, for example, how and how long it should be viewed, what can and can not be printed, etc... I know this is not simple task, as it would require not only an application, but also some set of servers to check and store the information. But let us ignore that fact at the moment and assume that all is needed is an application.

      But if I understand it correctly, such application should not be written using GPL nor using other GPLed code. Hey, but why? It does not harm anyone, it helps me to control my documents I send to other people.

      PS: I would like to discuss this issue more. If someone is interested, or wants to give his contra or pro arguments, do not hesitate to contact me: stefan at agentfarms net.

      --
      First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
    64. Re:Other issues by Grab · · Score: 4, Informative

      You're making the incorrect (but common) assumption of "effective" meaning "carrying out its job well". The actual meaning of "effective" in law is "having the effect of". It doesn't have to do its job well, it just has to do its job such that it gives a certain effect.

      For example, a cheap padlock out of a Christmas cracker is not "effective" in that it does its job well, because anyone can pick it with a paperclip. But it's "effective" in that if you, say, secure your house with it, then anyone picking the lock to gain entry is automatically guilty of breaking and entering.

      That's one of the ironies of the DMCA. Any DRM system doesn't have to do its job well - it's enough for the RIAA to say "this is the intention of the system" and they're covered. That's why it's such a bad law, because it gives total advantage to one group of people (media producers) without requiring any corresponding responsibilities from them.

      Grab.

    65. Re:Other issues by Grab · · Score: 1

      Oh yes they can. SUVs are the classic example - the reason the average miles-per-gallon of US automobiles is lower now than it was in 1980 is because of SUVs. "Automobiles" are allowed a certain miles-per-gallon, and below that they get hit with tax penalties. SUVs though are officially classed as "trucks", even though 99.99-recurring% of owners use them as an automobile. They therefore don't come into the same mileage-and-tax bracket, and they can have as crappy mileage figures as you like.

      So it's perfectly possible for someone to say "this is not a whatever" when they sell it, even if it's perfectly clear that it will be used for that. It just means that the ppl selling it aren't liable for it being used for purposes other than what they're officially selling it as.

      Grab.

    66. Re:Other issues by SLi · · Score: 1

      It sounds vague only because it has to be so. A "work based on the Program" is a legal term, it cannot be defined by the GPL. If the output isn't one, GPL cannot consider it a derivative work.

    67. Re:Other issues by Balp · · Score: 1

      Given that "free" means "able to modify the code and give changes away". It's a limited freedom, but still maybe a freedom. OpenBSD's license have more freedom for everyone, including the freedom not to give out what you have done to make it work and still be able to sell that combined stuff. You have the freedom to be evil and bad, and the rhetoric question are you free if you only can choose till follow one path?

      It might be a good thing to force everyone to follow the path of rightfulness, but I don't think it is freedom.

    68. Re:Other issues by greenrd · · Score: 1
      Are you seriously trying to claim that the text of a license is not legally binding?

      I think that you are the one who should be embarassed.

    69. Re:Other issues by Alsee · · Score: 1

      (remember, breaking the DMCA is not a criminal act, but a civil tort)

      You have that backwards.

      US LAW TITLE 17 CHAPTER 12,
      SECTION 1204: Criminal offenses and penalties
      (a) In General.-- Any person who violates section 1201 or 1202 willfully and for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain--
      (1) shall be fined not more than $500,000 or imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or both, for the first offense; and
      (2) shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or both, for any subsequent offense.


      Section 1201 makes act of circumvention (even for legally protected Fair Use purposes!) a criminal act, as well as criminalizing information or products that could be used to circumvent.

      If you look back at the Skylarov/Elmcomsoft DMCA prosecution, he was arrested and charged by the Federal Government. In fact the case went forward even after Adobe got hit with public relations backlash and Adobe publicly renounced any interest or support for the case. Their position was that it was a federal criminal case and that they would end the case if they had the power to do so.

      Aside from the criminal/civil confusion... I agree that it is a very good and very strong clause. Even if a judge allows the government to argue that the GPL software is being used / is acting as an effective technical protection measure, I don't see how they could keep the jury from seeing the text of the GPL stating that it is not an effective technical protection measure and for that to establish at minimum reasonable doubt for at minimum one of the jurors. Hell, in the Skylarov/Elmcomsoft case the jury outright rejected the clear and explitic text of the DMCA and the clearest possible direct violation of the DMCA and unanimously refused to convict. As the jury forman stated to the press, they jury had a problem with the DMCA itself and that it attempted to deny Fair Use rights. As one publishing industry analist complained, if the government couldn't win that perfect-case-DMCA-violation prosecution, he had trouble imagining any case that would hold up. The defense would have an absolute field day with it if you throw in a legal document stating that it is not part of a legitimate effective technological protection measure.

      P.S.
      If anyone noticed the words "financial gain" in the criminal statute and assumed that the DMCA therefore would not and cound not apply to ordinary people in normal activities, think again. The N.E.T. Act redefined the term financial gain.
      " The term 'financial gain' includes receipt, or expectation of receipt, of anything of value, including the receipt of other copyrighted works."
      So merely getting the DRM-protected copyrighted work itself now falls under "financial gain".
      It was a rather clever and nasty trick pulled by the publishing industry lawyers who literally wrote the law. (Yes, lawyers employed by the publishing industry have literally drafted pretty much all of US copyright law for the last few decades. That's why it's riddled with legal loopholes and 'gotchyas' that all favor the publishing industry.) With a small redefinition of terms and suddenly all sorts of individual noncommercial activities magically fall under the the far harsher criminal statutes that were intended to target commercial criminal enterprises. By redefining words, virtually everyone why has ever used P2P suddenly qualifies as a commercial copyright infringer and falls under the harsh penalties intended for commercial infringers and suddenly qualifies for several years in federal prison as a felon. Virually everyone who has ever used P2P at all.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    70. Re:Other issues by indifferent+children · · Score: 1
      What both of you are saying is what I wrote in the first place!

      What, you thought dupes were only for articles? Welcome to 2006, the year of the comment-dupe.

      --
      Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it. --Mark Twain
    71. Re:Other issues by vdboor · · Score: 1
      Therefore, I suggest that the GPL state that works covered by the GPL may not be DRM'ed at all.


      Such cause would be a violation of the "License Must Not Restrict Other Software" rule in the Open Source definition. Distributors of software have the right to make their own choices about their own software. Opening a legal door only to allow de-encryption is a powerful tool, which shouldn't be underestimated even if it's just a theoretical option.

      --
      The best way to accelerate a windows server is by 9.81 m/s2 ;-)
    72. Re:Other issues by Alsee · · Score: 1

      A copyright holder can't sue for circumvention

      Circumvention is a criminal act, and prosecuted by the government. Section 1204 states that it is criminal, and if you look back at the Skylarov/Elcomsoft case, it was a federal arrest and the case went forward even after Adobe responded to the public anger by backpeddling and stating that they had no interest in persuing it and that they would end the prosecution if it was in their power.

      As for the main line of discussion, there is another clause in the proposed GPL to explcitly requiring any keys for decrypting, which would kill your CSS example.

      I agree that the GPL anti-DMCA clause will effectively kill any attempt to prosecute anyone under the DMCA (or its international clones). The jury refused to convict in the Elcomsoft case, and the defese would have an absolute field day if there were a legal document involved explcitly stating it did not qualify as an effective protection measure.

      I was pretty impressed by the anti-DRM anti-TrustedComputing language... I didn't think they would be able to target Trusted Computing at all... but I am still concerned that it's still not good enough. That Trusted Computing still defeats even the new GPL. Trusted Computing can still report the exact identity of any and all software you are running, and you can still be prevented from using modified GPL software if the system reports over the internet that the software is modified and all communication attempts are rejected. And that can happen entirely outside of the GPL software. It can also run on top of a Trusted Computing encryption/decryption input/oputput translation layer. The software in the I/O layer would scan the running software to generate a crypto key. Absolutely any GPL software running on a system with such a layer installed would then be unalterable without losing your ability to read and use DRM'd data files for that GPL software... again effectively preventing modified software from working. And again it is entirely outside of the GPL software.

      The problem technically only exists once someone creates DRM-files locked to that unmodified and unmodifiable version of the GPL software. And that can be done by someone not involved in the GPL software and not bound by the GPL. Someone could simply use underlying Trusted Computing operating system features to DRM-lock data files to any now-unmodifiable software. Without any change at all to the GPL software itself, any GPL software retroactively becomes unmodifiable when someone else uses Trusted OS features to lock a data file or some other program to that exact executable. The modified software will lose the ability to read data, lose the ability to work with other software, and lose interoperability on the internet.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    73. Re:Other issues by Alsee · · Score: 2, Informative

      Is the GPL only intended for US?

      No.

      What about other countries with different or similar laws?

      Every country with a DMCA-type law is very closely modeled on the DMCA and works about the same and uses the same terms. For example the EUCD (EU Copyright Directive) imposes DMCA-like laws on all EU countries and imposes the exact same "effective techincal protection measure" term. The USA-Australian "Free-Trade" treaty imposed the same DMCA-like law withe the exact same "effective techincal protection measure" term onto Australia. And the US-pushed Central American Free Trade Agreement seeks to impose the same DMCA-like laws with the exact same "effective techincal protection measure" term onto all of the countries of Central and South America.

      So the GPL is being designed in a proper internal manner. Sure there are some countries where the "effective techincal protection measure" clause is unneeded, but there are a large number of DMCA countries and the clause fits all of them perfectly.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    74. Re:Other issues by Pofy · · Score: 1

      >For example the EUCD (EU Copyright Directive) imposes DMCA-like laws on
      >all EU countries and imposes the exact same "effective techincal
      >protection measure" term.

      This is not completely true. The EU directive only deals with protection of rights that exists under copyright. That is, the action protected against must itself basically be an infringement. The DMCA goes further in that it also includes access. This is something the EUCD does not include at all. Of course, some (or many, but not all) European countries has gione further and also included protection that control access but there are thus also those were access control is NOT covered. I would say that this is a huge difference.

    75. Re:Other issues by makomk · · Score: 1
      GNU Privacy Guard source is available but you'd have a hell of a time decrypting a message without the private key and passphrase. Truly usable DRM (i.e, the best of the evilest) would be perfectly save if the source is public. The keys would be the important thing. Then all you need is hardware that is Trusted(TM).

      Indeed. That's the reason for section 1, paragraph 3:
      Complete Corresponding Source Code also includes any encryption or authorization codes necessary to install and/or execute the source code of the work, perhaps modified by you, in the recommended or principal context of use, such that its functioning in all circumstances is identical to that of the work, except as altered by your modifications. It also includes any decryption codes necessary to access or unseal the work's output. Notwithstanding this, a code need not be included in cases where use of the work normally implies the user already has it.
    76. Re:Other issues by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      The problem with this idea, which has been pointed out before, is that it is impossible to enforce without using completely locked-down hardware. I assume that you want to be able to enforce your restrictions on someone else's PC, since you wouldn't need to remove those capabilities in order to protect the document on your own system. However, any software-based security features can be circumvented by running the system in an emulator, or with hardware designed to thwart the restrictions. For example, you could design a (hardware or software) video card that stored a copy of everything sent to the monitor. I seriously doubt that any DRM system can be made completely secure against hardware emulation, even assuming the presence of "trusted computing" hardware, without requiring all computers to be registered with some central authority for verification -- and even that could probably be circumvented by a determined individual. If you still want to rely on DRM, then I would suggest that you do it at your own cost, and not force the rest of us to carry the burdon of your demand for secrecy.

      Furthermore, unless you intend to channel the information directly into the recipient's brain (and wipe his/her memory afterward), you will have to trust the recipient to keep the contents of the documents private, even if you can manage to prevent him/her from keeping a copy of the documents themselves. If you distrust the recipient enough to rely on DRM, you shouldn't be giving him/her that information to begin with. A simple (possibly even hand-made) 35mm camera would make a mockery of any DRM system we could devise, given our current level of technology.

      DRM is a bad idea for two reasons: it doesn't solve the problem, and the problem it tries to solve is the wrong problem. The problem, in your case, is that you don't trust the recipient to keep the contents of the documents secret. You want a defense against that, which does not and cannot exist. That potential for betrayal is inherent to human relationships. DRM is designed to break other people's tools in hopes of preventing them from using them against you; it's a legal weapon designed as an offensive preliminary strike, and yet even draconian DRM is ultimately incapable of preventing someone from betraying your secrets.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    77. Re:Other issues by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Interesting. I definitely see your point regarding limited commercial use. I think original intent covers this though, I belive congress' intent was to prohibit things that aren't used for other stuff. Providing the DeCSS device is widely used I think it would fail to fall under "limited commercially significant purpose" even if it were never sold. As for the Reimerdes court the issue really should have been fair usage rights (i.e. the right to play it on Linux, BSD, OS/2, VMS, ZOS, I-OS....). Also that there was nothing left to protect the information was now public.

      I do agree though that the GPL people are going to be fighting up hill. The people most likely to agree with original intent are the ones most likely to be business friendly and unfriendly to non profits.

    78. Re:Other issues by shadow255 · · Score: 1
      Let's say that someone released a movie under the GPL

      How in the heck can someone do that? The GPL is a software license with specific requirements as for distribution of source code when programs are offered in machine-run-only form. Yes, there is much that can be done using computer software in the production of a movie, but the movie itself is not the software that was used in the course of production. It makes no sense to hypothesize this way!

      --

      Logic is a wonderful thing but doesn't always beat actual thought. -Terry Pratchett

    79. Re:Other issues by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      Read it lately?

      This License applies to any program or other work which contains
      a notice placed by the copyright holder saying it may be distributed
      under the terms of this General Public License.


      I don't see anything that would preclude distributing works other than software under the GPL. It might not be a good fit, and there are things like the FDL, which could be better, but I think it's at least possible. And I seem to recall having seen it happen before for art or something, but I don't recall the precise details.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    80. Re:Other issues by Alsee · · Score: 1

      As I said, the EUCD has the exact same "effective techincal protection measure" term.

      there are thus also those were access control is NOT covered

      That's nice. It doesn't much matter that access itself is techncially legal while it *is* criminal for anyone to give you the product or service or instructions to do it. Kinda like saying it's legal to own and drive a car, but not for anyone to sell you one or to sell you any parts or any tools. It's only legal if you built it with your bare hands from raw mineral ore you dug up yourself from your own land. Oh, and by the way... the design for the car is encrypted.

      And to the point, we are talking about the legality and availability of software. That is what the new GPL clause addresses... trying to ensure that the modification and distribution of GPL software cannot become illegal because it was used during some stupid DRM scheme.

      The EU directive only deals with protection of rights that exists under copyright.

      Doesn't matter. Any product or service or instructions would also enable infringment, and therefore they are all illegal.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    81. Re:Other issues by dgatwood · · Score: 1
      I realize that it is a legal term. Based on the legal definition thereof, almost any output is based on some portion of the program. The line

      printf("%d files", number);

      contains output based on the program. The output being based on the program is part of the fundamental nature of software. By a literal reading of this, were I a judge, I might very well rule that any output of the program is, therefore, a derivative work.

      This language REALLY needs to be cleaned up. Either bison/yacc parsers should be made "in the clear" and the inclusion of bits of source code should be allowed if the program was originally intended to include bits of its own source code as part of its output or the output of all programs needs to be clearly defined as a derivative work. You can't have it both ways, but this language appears to try....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    82. Re:Other issues by shadow255 · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure I understand how you can construe this to provide for licensing works that do not fit the source code/object code model. Sections 4 through 6 become impossible to fulfill without a work that can exist in these forms. What is actually being granted to the recipient of a supposedly GPL-licensed movie? The privilege to form a production crew and matching cast to generate a facsimile, with one's own modifications that must be detailed to downstream recipients who wish to do the same?

      --

      Logic is a wonderful thing but doesn't always beat actual thought. -Terry Pratchett

    83. Re:Other issues by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I'm currious, Would this clause as it is writen bar me from making a GPLed DRM programs and distributing it under the GPL?

      What i mean is, intel is starting to build DRM support into some mainboards. If i make a program that gives compatability to any distro or LFS, windows (any version) or some apliance operating systems, does this clause conflict with releasing it as GPL.

      Another example, I might set up a server that obfuscates streeming video and requires some DRM laden programs to view (interpret) it. The purpose isn't as much to make sure you play it only on one machine but, to make sure you have rights to play it. Lets say I make a program that checks from another server if you have signed up for it and then compares identifyers on your computer wich is then embed into this video (content) so it can be tracked back to that computer/person/appliance/whatever. I write a DRM program that locks a responce based on the hardware, login IDs, email adresses and such then sends it to the server for an access code to view the content. Any other computer (device) must have this asnwer and access code to view the content (we will call it a license file). We may even make the obfuscation with an offset for the amount of times you are allowed to view the contentent so if it falls inot the wrong hands, it cannot be studied. I'm thinking more like company trade secretes and comunications that could fall into the hands of reporters or competing companies. Of course it might be usable for other purposes like subscription movie rentals or satilite radio.

      Does GPLing the client or any portion of this system conflict with the new provisions in the GPL3? And more importantly would this clause as it is writen, allow people to work around the restrictiosn on the content so the video can be freely redistributed?

      I ask because DRM is comming if we like it or not. Maybe some open source version could allow some distrobutions to include support out of the box and still remain open. It might also be somethign worth marketing to the media/content whores who see it neccesary to use DRM in the first place. Besides somethign like this might make it more attractive for closed source companies who see the GPL as a negetive to develope (comercial?) products for open source systems.

    84. Re:Other issues by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      It apears that the term "free" is defined idealisticly here. BSD uses free as in "your benifit from freedom" while GPL uses it in "your benifit while considering everyone elses".

      I can see the need for both. I guess it goes back to the right tool for the job.

    85. Re:Other issues by SLi · · Score: 1

      By a literal reading of this, were I a judge, I might very well rule that any output of the program is, therefore, a derivative work.

      No, you still misunderstand the issue. A license, be it GPL or some other, has no say in whether something is a derived work or not. Either it is a derived work, regardless of what the license says, or it is not. If it is not, the license saying it is won't make it so. If it is not a derived work, the license cannot restrict its distribution because it is an independent work, legally unrelated to the program.

    86. Re:Other issues by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      The financial gain definition is interesting. I wonder if you bought the work if it would be the same as say downloading it. Or would the law/definition decide that finacial gain ment getting the DRMed copywriten work without the copyright holders permision.

      Definatly it is some concern. It would suck to get thrown in jail because i wanted to view something I already owned the right to use on another device that i had to hack a little to get working.

    87. Re:Other issues by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      But they cannot sell an unnsafe item (no 5mph bumper)and call it somethign else just because it is unsafe.

      In the case of SUV's, there are structual and other requirments involved in classifying them as a light trucks other then just saying people will drive them this way. They can actualy be classified as a passenger vehicle and take the tax hit on the extra milage difference. Some of the more expensive ones do this so they can keep the luxury apeal.

      More back to the topic, the term DRM isn't even defined clearly in the license. I could call the DRM, "revenue protection" or RP instead and probably get around the clause (note, this would lose the DMCA protections). This differs from the SUV example because an automobile is hevily defined and regulated by existing law.

    88. Re:Other issues by Balp · · Score: 1

      I use free as in "able to act at will; not hampered; not under compulsion or restraint" (Wordnet). Then maybe total freedom for everyone isn't perfect and maybe some constraints may be positive. The GPL contains many restrictions, with restrictions you are not free. (Unless you change the word free to have a "new" meaning.)

      There are some differences and in some cases maybe the GPL might be better, especially it's better to force people into sharing. However I don't you can force people into having freedom. It's about as stupid as fucking for virginity.

      / Balp

    89. Re:Other issues by Grab · · Score: 1

      If there was no "5mph bumper" rule for light trucks, they certainly could...

      Back on topic though :-) you're right that DRM needs clear definition. Unless you can point to something and show that it's DRM (even if it's called something else) then you're stuck. And defining DRM will be tough.

      Grab.

    90. Re:Other issues by Dr.+Photo · · Score: 1

      "Such cause would be a violation of the "License Must Not Restrict Other Software" rule in the Open Source definition."

      The FSF cares about Free Software, not Open Source.

    91. Re:Other issues by dgatwood · · Score: 1
      Well, you're pedantically correct, but you're still missing my point, and in the context of my point, you are effectively incorrect. I'm not suggesting broadening the definition of "derivative work". I'm suggesting narrowing it slightly to completely eliminate a legal grey area that is seen by many as a roadblock to adoption of GPLed software by corporate users.

      The license cannot define derivative work more broadly than copyright law allows. However, the licensor of a work does have the rights to declare in advance that a category of derivative works may be made based upon the work without prior permission, and may preemptively waive any claims to works derived in that manner. Effectively, this is equivalent to defining derivative works in a more narrow fashion. In fact, such redefinition is basically the foundation of the GPL and BSD licenses in a nutshell.

      The way I would like to see this altered is by adding something to the effect of the following:

      Should the output of the software be, in whole or in part, a derivative work of some portion of the software itself as a result of the fundamental nature or design of the software, provided that said output is not generated as a result of alterations or additions made to the software with the intent to circumvent the preexisting licensing terms thereof, that output shall not be governed under the terms of this license.

      Such works, hereinafter referred to as derivatives by design, are instead herein licensed freely and in perpetuity, with no restrictions on their use or disposition, to the user of the software. The author or authors of this software disclaim any and all claims to ownership of works so derived.

      The net effect is that if the output would have been considered by a court to be a derivative work, it would be released into the user's custody, and if it would not have been so considered, it would already be in the user's custody, and thus the declaration above would have no effect, negative or otherwise.

      There are a lot of these fuzzy areas with the GPL when it comes to derivative works. That's why we have the whole LGPL vs. GPL thing, for example. As much as possible, I would like to see these clarified, as they tend to result in people being afraid of the GPL much more than is probably warranted.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    92. Re:Other issues by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      4-6 of the GPL only require that you comply with the license in order to keep your rights under the license, conditions indicating acceptance, and the pay-it-forward model the GPL uses. None of those hinge on a source/object code model.

      Remember, source code is defined in the GPL: The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it. In the case of a movie, that could be a film negative or or all the various elements that went into making the movie. Tough to say, without having an expert witness from the movie industry. But it doesn't have to be in C or anything. It would have to be machine readable, but that's not too difficult in this day and age. Some creative interpretation of what object code is might be required, but given that the drafters apparently intended for non-software works to be covered, a court shouldn't have trouble with that.

      What is actually being granted to the recipient of a supposedly GPL-licensed movie? The privilege to form a production crew and matching cast to generate a facsimile, with one's own modifications that must be detailed to downstream recipients who wish to do the same?

      Probably copies of the materials that were edited together to form the movie (video and audio) in the form of elements (e.g. all the pieces of film used to create one shot, and the individual sound effects and pieces of dialog over it) so that someone can re-edit the movie, add parts to it, take parts away, etc. If they want to do that by restaging shots, they could, but I think that it's not preferred enough to require every single detail to be included.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    93. Re:Other issues by zcat_NZ · · Score: 1

      'We've designed this software and the licence that governs it, intentionally, in a way whereby you cannot attach a lock without it being trivially removeable. Such a lock is no more effective that a notice saying "please don't copy" which is insufficient protection to qualify under the DMCA'

      There's a 'please don't copy' bit in the CD standard too.. every commercially produced CD sets it. Every commercially and noncommercially produced piece of cd-reading software ignores it; even Windows Media Player. Nobody's ever been sued under the DMCA for this.

      --
      455fe10422ca29c4933f95052b792ab2
    94. Re:Other issues by Pofy · · Score: 1

      >As I said, the EUCD has the exact same "effective techincal protection
      >measure" term.

      Well, not really since the DMCA includes access while the EUCD does not. One can argue other minor differences as well but that is a fundamental difference. So for the EUCD something that control access is NOT an "effective technical protection measue" while it is so for the DMCA, hence they can't be the same.

      >That's nice. It doesn't much matter that access itself is techncially legal

      No idea why you put "technical" in there. It is quite simple, something that control access is NOT covered by the EUCD and hence there is nothing illegal about it, technical or non technical.

      >while it *is* criminal for anyone to give you the product or service or
      >instructions to do it.

      Ehh, no, the same applies there, it is only in regard to rights a copyright holder has, access is not such a thing and hence you can provide for example tools and services for access or instructions on how to access something since it is not circumvention since there is no protection to start with in the meaning of the directive.

      >Oh, and by the way... the design for the car is encrypted.

      Encryption for example is all about access and doesn't prevent, for example copying or making it available to the public or distribution. Hence, encrypting something is not covered and is not treated as an effective technical protection (not even a non effective) and you can circumvent it all you want, according to the EUCD, as I said, some countries have gone further.

      >Doesn't matter. Any product or service or instructions would also enable
      >infringment, and therefore they are all illegal.

      So no, only if they deal with corcumvention of an effective technical protechtion, if it is about access, there is no such thing and any such product or instruction and so on is perfectly legal.

    95. Re:Other issues by jpowers · · Score: 1

      "This is not a tool for downloading copied music."

      --

      -jpowers
    96. Re:Other issues by shadow255 · · Score: 1
      4-6 of the GPL only require that you comply with the license in order to keep your rights under the license, conditions indicating acceptance, and the pay-it-forward model the GPL uses. None of those hinge on a source/object code model.

      The rights under the license are specifically tied to your ability (as the recipient) to modify source code to produce object code. How can you say that this does not hinge on a source/object code model?

      What I think is dangerous about going down this path is that it is not clear at all what the terms "source code" and "object code" mean in a non-software context, as you yourself state: Some creative interpretation of what object code is might be required... Probably copies of the materials that were edited together to form the movie.... Someone thinking of distributing a movie under this license had better get something significantly more concrete before doing it.

      --

      Logic is a wonderful thing but doesn't always beat actual thought. -Terry Pratchett

    97. Re:Other issues by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      What I think is dangerous about going down this path is that it is not clear at all what the terms "source code" and "object code" mean in a non-software context

      It is absolutely clear what source code means in a non software context, because it is defined in the GPL, and that definition will be controlling. The fuzziness is with regard to what 'object code' means, but since it has to make sense in light of the GPL's statement that applies to works other than programs, it's probably quite inclusive, rather than being limited to software. If it was not, that statement wouldn't mean anything, and that doesn't make sense.

      Someone thinking of distributing a movie under this license had better get something significantly more concrete before doing it.

      I didn't say it would be a good idea, just that it would be possible.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    98. Re:Other issues by shadow255 · · Score: 1
      I didn't say it would be a good idea, just that it would be possible.

      Well then, returning to what started this entire exchange, perhaps you could have noted when hypothesizing that a person releases a movie under GPL that it is not something you consider a good idea, even though it seems possible. You have opened my eyes to one thing in particular: the definition of works licensable in the current draft needs careful consideration.

      --

      Logic is a wonderful thing but doesn't always beat actual thought. -Terry Pratchett

  2. I'll stick with the MIT license. by CyricZ · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think I will continue to stick with the MIT license. It has plain, easy to comprehend terms. It's concise.

    I appreciate the effort the FSF is making, but things may be getting out of hand. I know of many developers who feel the same as I do. They just want to create software, without having to get bogged down with legalities. Thankfully, licenses like the BSD license and the MIT license work wonderfully well for us.

    --
    Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
    1. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by ZorbaTHut · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Some people don't want their code to be used in any situation. They want to guarantee that anyone trying to profit off their code will basically have to contribute in one way or another - the code can't just be copied and closed.

      Personally I use both GPL and BSD for different projects, but saying "the GPL is too complex and that's why people should use BSD/MIT" really ignores the reason why many people use the GPL in the first place. I agree that we could use a simpler version of the GPL - but BSD isn't it.

      --
      Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
    2. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by ibullard · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not stealing when you give it away. Some people don't mind giving their work away and the GPL isn't applicable for ALL development.

    3. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by winwar · · Score: 1

      "I think I will continue to stick with the MIT license. It has plain, easy to comprehend terms. It's concise."

      Concise is pretty easy when the license is essentially anything goes with attribution. I suspect the new GPL isn't really any different in philosophy than the previous ones. It just takes more words to explain in legal terms.

    4. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by AuMatar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "They just want to create software, without having to get bogged down with legalities. "

      And thats why they should use the GPL- to make sure it *remains* free, and that changes and additions to it remain free. BSD and MIT may be concise, but it doesn't make this promise. If you're going with them, you may as well just forget the license and go public domain.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    5. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by ibullard · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, BSD licenses sure have killed a lot of projects.
      That's just five minutes of searching for BSD licensed projects, I didn't look for MIT licensed projects.

    6. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Who cares? If your intention is *really* altruistic as "Open Source" claims to be (and not a hypocrit), then you won't care who uses it. Your original code is still available to anyone who wants to use it.

      In other words, you want it to be "Open" but not "Open" to all. BSD is the true "Open Source" license. GPL and some of the others have too much politics and emotion tied up in them (as well as fair doses of hypocrisy). Software isn't a religion and shouldn't be made into one. If you've ever said "look at the problems religion causes" then I can't see how in the world you'd take the time to make OSS and such into a religion.

      It should be renamed: "Right to F**k Me in the Ass" License.

      Name one way where giving your code away so that others can see it can turn around and "f**k you in the ass". Even if someone did do what you propose, how does that invalidate your BSD licensed code that you put out? It doesn't erase it from history. It doesn't prevent anyone else from using it or modifying it. You simply have some emotional reasons for not wanting someone to use your code even though you want some others to use your code. Drop the emotion and you're life will be higher quality.

    7. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by compass46 · · Score: 1

      And thats why they should use the GPL- to make sure it *remains* free

      If I write something and BSD license it and someone comes along, extends it, and relicenses it under a non-free license... My code is still free. I still have my code. It didn't go anywhere. It didn't disappear off computer. The only difference is I don't have the extensions that the second person made. So what? Some people really don't care what others do with their code. Hence, they use a BSD or MIT style license.

      Lastly, BSD or MIT != Public Domain.

    8. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by hey! · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They just want to create software, without having to get bogged down with legalities.

      Well, choosing to ignore the complexities of the legal system doesn't guarantee they ignore you. For example the MIT license has no disclaimer of warranty. Nor does it require the licensee to waive any potential claim of damages. In theory, somebody could take your software, modify it in a way that introduces bugs, then disappear, leaving downstream licensees with your name as the only starting point for a lawsuit.

      It doesn't matter that it's not your fault. Unless you're like MIT with a substantial legal staff to scare them off, it'll be too bad for you. The BSD license would be a much better choice.

      Like software, licenses should be as simple as they need to be to accomplish what you need them to do, but no simpler.

      The MIT license ensures you get credit. Period.

      The BSD license ensures you get credit, and that nobody claims that you endorse their derivative products, and that everybody uses the software on the condition of releasing you from legal responsibility for damages.

      GPL ensures you get credit, that people release you from legal responsibility for damages, and that every downstream recipient gets as many rights as you granted your immediate licensees.

      It's too bad that you have to understand any kind of legaleese to be a programmer, but that's life. Licenses are just the start of it. You have to understand a bit about copyrights, patents and trademarks too. If you work with source material that is not public domain, you probably need to have some understanding of contracts. We're not talking law school level stuff, but at least an informed layman's understanding.

      If you don't like this, sticking your head in the sand is not a viable solution.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    9. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 1
      I agree that we could use a simpler version of the GPL - but BSD isn't it.

      GPL 2 seems to be a better version...

    10. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by AuMatar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ANd thats the problem with the BSD and MIT license- that they *don't* require changes to remain free. As such, they garuntee that those with money and resources will eventually throw enough money at the probem to obliterate the free versions, by taking all the useful stuff from them.

      And yes, I know BSD and MIT is not public domain. But since you want to go BSD or MIT, why not just make it public domain anyway? All the BSD and MIT do is keep attribution, are you really that arrogant? If you don't care about the code's continued freedom, I can't see why you'd care if your name was attached to it.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    11. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by kjots · · Score: 1

      Some people really don't care what others do with their code. Hence, they use a BSD or MIT style license.

      And some people do. Hence, they use a GPL or LGPL style licence.

      What exactly is it that we're arguing about anyway?

    12. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by John+Nowak · · Score: 1

      You don't keep attribution. You also get to keep copyright. You also get to slap a nice disclaimer on there saying if anything goes wrong, it isn't your fault. I'm not sure I'd feel as comfortable releasing under public domain because of that, although I am interested in doing so.

    13. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by killjoe · · Score: 1, Troll

      Microsoft and apple thank you very much for your efforts. Please keep it up and for God's sake stay away from the GPL. It's too complicated and requires them to give back.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    14. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by ABoerma · · Score: 1

      ...Well, choosing to ignore the complexities of the legal system doesn't guarantee they ignore you. For example the MIT license has no disclaimer of warranty...

      True, except for the 'THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND...'.

    15. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by RibRdb · · Score: 3, Funny

      If people don't want their code used in any situation, perhaps they should consider the Death and Repudiation License.
      http://search.cpan.org/src/AUTRIJUS/YAML-Syck-0.04 /COPYING

    16. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by compass46 · · Score: 1

      "What exactly is it that we're arguing about anyway?"

      The idea that people shouldn't use the BSDL.

    17. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by Cal+Paterson · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You might be interested to note:

      The FSF is dedicated to allowing people to create code that everyone is free to use, for any reason (save the restriction of freedom of others). This code must remain free for everyone in the future to benefit from. This is why is it Free Software, and not simply Open Source. The FSF percieve the ability to take BSD source and use it in closed-source software as a disadvantage of the BSD/MIT licences.

      That said, the BSD/MIT licences do have advantages in some contexts. Bittorrent, OpenDocument and Ogg Vorbis are examples of things that are legal for anyone to include in their software, which allows everyone, even people who don't use Free Software to be able to interchange infomation, and this improves interoperability. (Even through Bram Cohen has regrettably since changed to a licence that is no longer DFSG-free). The FSF feel that releasing their source code into the public domain (or under BSD) would directly benefit large companies who have an interest in harming the software community's progress.

      And I believe that the Windows iptables stuff was a lift of the BSD iptables, hence the fuck in the arse.

    18. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Yep, Netcraft confirms BSD is dead. It certainly killed them off.

    19. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by gnosygnus · · Score: 1

      the mozilla public license 1.1 is just as complicated and bogged down with legalities as the gpl. while i'm sure many developers want to just stick their heads in the code and create software, in an era of patent- trolling- litigiousness, they might as well be sticking their heads in the sand. IANAL, but i would prefer a license that directly addresses legalities arising from patent infringement claims, than a tried-and-true one that neglects mention of it entirely. and any license (gpl, mozilla, etc.) that tries to counter potential legal issues will no longer be plain, easy to comprehend, or concise: such is the nature of the legal Beast.

      i am not saying one should use the new gpl. there are obviously other implications that determine a license's suitability to its project. however, adhering to a license, simply because its simpler, is not a safe approach. once upon a time, i'm sure early software developers regarded the new MIT software license as injecting unnecessary legality into their software projects. sadly, these licenses have since become the norm, and their works would've since fallen prey to copyright violations or litigations concerning warrantability, liability, etc.. at the risk of FUD-mongering, i contend that the same may well be true of present licenses that do not handle the patent threat.

    20. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by LetterRip · · Score: 1

      That is a really excellent layman summary of the licenses,

      thanks,

      LetterRip

    21. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by Arandir · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But it will ALWAYS remain free under a MIT or BSD license! The idea that it can somehow be made non-free is a malicious myth started by the FSF. Someone can make *their* copy unfree, but they cannot make *my* copy unfree. No matter what Microsoft does, my copy of FreeBSD will ALWAYS be free.

      --
      A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
    22. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by hao2lian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "All the BSD and MIT do is keep attribution, are you really that arrogant?"
      How is attribution arrogant? It's no less arrogant than, say, donating non-anonymously to a charity. For somebody who's spent hours to years working on something they've released to the public domain, I certainly wouldn't mind attributing them in my derivative work. Would restrictions like derivative work licensing or ability to use DRM be more arrogant?

      "If you don't care about the code's continued freedom, I can't see why you'd care if your name was attached to it."
      Not everybody values code freedom as highly, but that doesn't mean that makes them bad people or that makes them arrogant to want attribution or that makes them uncaring about their work.

      --
      Pelé!
    23. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by Decameron81 · · Score: 1
      "But since you want to go BSD or MIT, why not just make it public domain anyway? All the BSD and MIT do is keep attribution, are you really that arrogant? If you don't care about the code's continued freedom, I can't see why you'd care if your name was attached to it."


      I made it, I want the credits. I don't care if you think that's arrogance, the license you choose doesn't make the credits any more or less necessary.
      --
      diegoT
    24. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by CyricZ · · Score: 1

      It's not a very good summary at all. The second sentence of the reply is blatantly incorrect. Go refer to the MIT license itself to see how incorrect the poster's claim is.

      --
      Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
    25. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      It doesn't matter that it's not your fault. Unless you're like MIT with a substantial legal staff to scare them off, it'll be too bad for you. The BSD license would be a much better choice.

      The MIT license protects against that. See:

      THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT

    26. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

      "This code must remain free for everyone in the future to benefit from."

      This is the biggest deception of the "Free" software movement, that somehow BSD code can be made unavailable by having it incorporated into closed software.

      The difference between the two licenses is that GPL-derived works must abide by the GPL while BSD-derived works don't have to. In both cases the original code is free forever, only the new code is affected by the differences in licensing.

    27. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by greggman · · Score: 1

      >they *don't* require changes to remain free

      Neither do the license for Apache, PHP, XWindows, Subversion, Boost and many otehrs.

      >As such, they garuntee that those with money and resources will
      >eventually throw enough money at the probem to obliterate the free
      >versions, by taking all the useful stuff from them.

      Yep, I like how Apache and PHP are dead.

    28. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

      "Then these projects could be easily killed of. Some company like (we know who) would easily take all the codes, incorporate all the features in their products, add a few of their own stuff, make it proprietary, and that's it. You wouldn't be able to compete with them"

      So let's get this straight. Companies like MS aren't capable of competing without BSD-based code, but suddenly once they incorporate it into their own software they'll be able to add features and the original community will be unable to keep up with them and so the original project will be killed off. How does the community get so dumb and MS so smart?

      The GPL is about promoting an idea to the exclusion of all others; touting it as a "solution" to some non-existent problem of BSD-style licenses is just FUD.

    29. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

      Patents?
      Patents are going to harm GPL software every bit as much as they harm BSD or MIT licensed software, which is why I discount them when discussing Free Software.

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    30. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by jbolden · · Score: 4, Informative

      And your copy may be totally irrelevent. See the history of X windows for a great example of how the MIT license totally failed.

    31. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Microsoft and apple thank you very much for your efforts. Please keep it up and for God's sake stay away from the GPL. It's too complicated and requires them to give back.

      Yeah, because Microsoft and Apple would just be RAPING all those alpha-version abandoned projects on sourceforge, and they'd get away with it too, if it wasn't for you meddling kids and your pesky GPL!!

      </Scooby Doo>

      Seriously... Being utterly terrified that MS or Apple is going to "steal" your preciousssss is like being afraid that the US Military is going to "steal" your plans for a pvc potato gun.

      With very few large exceptions (like FreeBSD, pgSQL, and maybe one of the larger DEs, which they'd just modify back to their own "look and feel" anyway), there's precious little in the OSS community that the likes of MS would even BOTHER with. And even if they did, it would either

      a) Be functionally identical to the still-freely available alternatives
      or
      b) Be so screwed up by MS' coding practices that the original free version maintains its same draw.

      Seriously, let's keep at least a tenuous grip on reality here.

    32. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by killjoe · · Score: 1, Troll

      If GPL wasn't effective MS would not be trying so hard to kill it. They would not be funding the SCO lawsuit, they would not be spending millions of dollars with PR agencies and law firms.

      Don't kid yourself. MS is scared shitless of the GPL. If they weren't they'd be acting differently.

      As for the BSD I guess you said it best. The corporations cherry pick the best programs and adopt them to sell them.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    33. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by Pofy · · Score: 1

      Of course, in many countries you can't just waive all responsabilities like that, doesn't matter that you have others to agree to it.

    34. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by balor · · Score: 1

      I see it more as a level playing field.

      The GPL says I'll let you skip the R&D investment and use my code if you compete with me on a level playing field.

      The BSD/MIT licence lets you skip the R&D investment and compete with me.

      If someone is going to compete with me I'd rather they take my code and feed back any improvements than if they just used my work for their gain. However, there are many situations where I'd simply use BSD/MIT.

    35. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      If GPL wasn't effective MS would not be trying so hard to kill it. They would not be funding the SCO lawsuit, they would not be spending millions of dollars with PR agencies and law firms.

      Hey, believe whatever helps you keep the troops rallied.

      I'm more inclined to beleive that MS doesn't give an airborne copulation at a ventrally rotating pastry about the GPL itself, but they DO find themselves getting trounced in the server market by some smarmy little upstart from Finland. Since they can't compete with it technically, what better way to attack it in the eyes of the capitalist businessmen than through it's communistic politically-motivated license?

      MS isn't trying to kill the GPL. It's trying to kill Linux by way of the GPL.

    36. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by Per+Abrahamsen · · Score: 1

      > They just want to create software, without having to get bogged down with legalities.

      We all do. Unfortunately, with software patents and DMCA it is no longer really an option.

      If you don't want to be a lawyer or a criminal, you will have to get involved in software politics. Those people who do shape our laws don't care that some of us would rather "just write software".

      Well, you can of course alaso work for some large company (like IBM or Microsoft), that can hire people to be lawyers for you.

    37. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > And thats why they should use the GPL- to make sure it *remains* free

      This is silly. BSD code remains free. Nobody can come along and say, "Because I based my proprietary work on this, you can no longer have it." It's still free. Another work _based on_ it may not be free, of course, but the work _itself_ is still free.

      The GPL is all about what _derived works_ can or cannot be made and how they can or cannot be distributed. The work itself is actually less free than it would be under the BSD license, because there are a number of (sometimes complex) situations in which it cannot be used (most notably, when you also want to link against a library you don't have rights to; under the GPL, you can't do that, at least, not if you intend on redistribution of any kind). If I use the BSD license for my code, I can be confident that, even if I accept patches from others, I can still always use my program for whatever I want, however I want. I can use it in a personal capacity at home, or I can take it to a future job with me and use it there, or whatever I choose to do with it.

      Other people can do these things also, but that does not restrict what *I* can do.

      If I use the GPL for my code, and I don't accept any patches from anyone else, then I can still relicense my code however I want, but, importantly, if I use the GPL and then start accepting patches from others, basing my own changes on those patches, and so on, the code is no longer all mine, and I lose certain rights. If I then want to link against a proprietary library, I can't. If I want to use the code (which is primarily my own code, remember) in a job context as part of a larger work that uses a proprietary license, I cannot. I'd have to recreate my work from scratch. Who wants to do that? Boring.

      The FSF claims that the GPL is all about guaranteeing freedoms. This is rhetoric. Putting the code in the public domain would forever guarantee[1] everyone's freedom to use, modify, and redistribute it. What it wouldn't do, which the GPL does, is place all kinds of restrictions on the conditions under which they can do so.

      The only reason you should use the GPL for your code is if you *want* to restrict what people can use it for, e.g., if the idea that someone might include some of your code in a proprietary product bothers you. Such an idea does not bother me. I wrote the code because I wanted to be able to use it, and I released it (as opposed to just keeping it on my hard drive) because I thought other people might find it useful too. What exactly they use it for is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned (as long as they understand I'm not contractually bound to support it or anything, which is why there's a warranty disclaimer in practically every license, certainly in all versions of the GPL as well as the BSD and MIT licenses).

      If you just want to guarantee everyone the rights to your code, the BSD license is fine. The purpose of the GPL is to get some guarantees *back* from the people who use your code. That's a different thing.

      [1]: Well, okay, there's the patent issue, but I'm not convinced any license you put your code under can prevent some other clown from coming along and filing a patent. The PTO is not going to check, before granting a patent, whether there are any GPLv3 works that implement the technique and, if so, decline to grant the thing.)

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    38. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by Alsee · · Score: 1

      I don't understand. Why would anyone ever bother using the MIT license? If that is what you want to do, why not just release the code as public domain? What is the point of messing with stupid legalities and pointless licenses to accomplish the exact same thing?

      If you don't like the GPL and don't want to use it, fine. But I really do not understand the point of suggesting the MIT license at all. Just come right out and suggest public domaining the work if that's what you want.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    39. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by justins · · Score: 1
      Unless you're like MIT with a substantial legal staff to scare them off, it'll be too bad for you.

      It'd be interesting to know if the XFree86 people were ever sued. God knows they crashed enough machines in their time, and they used the MIT X license until very recently.

      I suspect they weren't, and this is all mostly FUD.
      --
      Now before I get modded down, I be to remind whoever might read this that what I am saying is FACT. - bogaboga
    40. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by mr3038 · · Score: 1
      Remember under GPL 2 i can take BSD (v2) licensed code and use it. I can't go the other way.
      [...]
      Most often the BSD camp is forced to use GPL code and comply to it. We can't just use code like the other way. BSDs must use a [GNU] compiler, tools, and any X11 window manager worth anything is GPL. Its a bitch.

      Did I misunderstood something when you said that the point of using BSD is the desire to give out total freedom? You now say that "its a bitch" when they change the license from BSD to GPL after adding a new feature which makes a piece of software more desirable. Are you sure that you really prefer BSD to GPL?

      As I see it, the whole point of using GPL license is that it says that derived works must be licensed under the very same license. That, plus the fact that you must distribute sources with the binaries. Of course, it follows that GPL cannot be compatible with any other license.

      The only fear I have is that in the future we have some piece of software that is licensed under GPL version 2 (without "or later" clause) and an another piece of software that is licensed under "GPL version 3 or later" and we cannot ever combine those. I think that it would make an example case what's wrong with GPL in general.

      --
      _________________________
      Spelling and grammar mistakes left as an exercise for the reader.
    41. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by Arandir · · Score: 1

      That's perfectly fine. But irrelevant to the discussion. Your code under the GPL will always be free, and so will my code under an MIT license.

      --
      A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
    42. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by Arandir · · Score: 1

      Yet I see that X.org is still under the MIT license...

      You have a strange definition of "failed". The X Window System is an example of the SUCCESS of the MIT license, because it is a full expression of the goals behind the license.

      --
      A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
    43. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by jbolden · · Score: 1

      First off the modern "X.org" is pretty much XFree86 not the MIT X.org that existed a half dozen years ago.

      Anyway the history is absolutely a success for commercial cooption. The goals behind the X windows license in the 1980s was that free software be taken and implemented commercially for the customer base. The GPL people agree that this is precisely what the BSD/MIT licenses accomplish. You are the one who is denying this.

    44. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by killjoe · · Score: 1

      Right, right. Yea, that makes perfect sense. LOL.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    45. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by Arandir · · Score: 1

      What is wrong with free software being implemented commercially for the customer base? Apple did this with FreeBSD, yet FreeBSD is STILL FREE! I came out with 6.0 just last month. It's doing gangbusters, just as free as it has always been.

      X.org was forked off of XFree86, which was in turn forked off of MIT X11R6. It comes from the original MIT licensed code. It's still out there, still being used, and still free.

      What you "GPL people" don't seem to realize, is that software doesn't need the special protections that material goods require. Software cannot be stolen. Neither can it be "exploited" in the normal sense of that word. What I do with my copy of the software will not affect your copy of the software.

      --
      A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
    46. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by jbolden · · Score: 1

      I happen to think there is a lot wrong with customers using commercial and not free software. Free software has the ability to change people's whole view of society in a world where scarcity and the fight for resources doesn't matter as much (i.e. in the world infinitely reproducible items) and lead to a far better economy. Commercial software with free software input doesn't do anything particully different than commercial software without free software input.

      But regardless of what I think. You are switching the argument. What you had to defend was that BSD type software did not lead to embrace and extend. You are now trying to argue that embrace and extend is fine.

    47. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Makes a hell of a lot more sense than claiming MS is "scared shitless" of a peice of paper/text file that is no threat to them whatsoever.

      The idea that the GPL will take over the software world and make all software free and obsolete proprietary software is simply delusional. Maybe it's a NICE delusion, but a delusion nonetheless. If you think MS has anything to fear from the GPL, you're kidding yourself.

    48. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by killjoe · · Score: 1

      "The idea that the GPL will take over the software world and make all software free and obsolete proprietary software is simply delusional."

      It's delusional to think that the GPL is designed to do that. Did you read that someplace or did the voices in your head whisper it to you?

      "If you think MS has anything to fear from the GPL, you're kidding yourself."

      If they weren't scared they wouldn't be calling people communists and funding SCO.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    49. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      "The idea that the GPL will take over the software world and make all software free and obsolete proprietary software is simply delusional."

      It's delusional to think that the GPL is designed to do that. Did you read that someplace or did the voices in your head whisper it to you?


      Neither. That's just the only possible reason MS would be afraid of it.


      "If you think MS has anything to fear from the GPL, you're kidding yourself."

      If they weren't scared they wouldn't be calling people communists and funding SCO.


      Again, that has absolutely nothing to do with the GPL itself. It's a way to hurt *LINUX* (they hope). If *LINUX* went away and isn't replaced by a similar threat that happens to be GPLed (Hurd? *snicker*), 5-gets-you-10 Microsoft never utters another word about the license after the initial PR spin on how good old red-blooded American capitalism won the day.

      Microsoft didn't get to be as big as they are by being stupid and wasting megabucks fighting IDEALS. Lay off the paranoia.

    50. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by orasio · · Score: 1

      "GPL people" don't care about the future of the software.
      The whole idea of using the GPL is that you are protecting the users, because you are making sure that your software will not serve as a tool so somebody can restrict their users freedom, for example by placing restrictions on the software you made. Of course, your copy will remain free, but the users will get the shaft.

    51. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by orasio · · Score: 1

      That's because you are seeing the software as the subject of freedom.
      The user is the subject. The software is a tool.
      Of course the software remains "free", whatever that means.
      The problem is that you risk having your software used to take freedom away from people.

      _I_ care about that, because I don't care about software, and I care about people. Of course, it's always our choice what to care about.

    52. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by killjoe · · Score: 1

      "Neither. That's just the only possible reason MS would be afraid of it."

      Really? That's the only possible reason MS would be afraid of it. There are no other possible reasons for MS to be afraid of it? Not even one?

      Now who is delusional.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    53. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Really? That's the only possible reason MS would be afraid of it. There are no other possible reasons for MS to be afraid of it? Not even one?

      Now who is delusional.


      Still you. Or have you not noticed that you failed to provide an alternate reason? Something that the GPL can actually do that poses a threat to MS in particular or closed source in general.

    54. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by Cal+Paterson · · Score: 1

      "This is the biggest deception of the "Free" software movement, that somehow BSD code can be made unavailable by having it incorporated into closed software.

      The BSD code is still available, but any improvements that were made in the closed-software are not available to the general public. Then, that closed-source software could take all the improvements made in the BSD software, and then improve on those changes, and then release that. When they do this, only the company profits, and the general public don't.

      When you release a closed-source program for BSD, you are relying on all the code that *BSD has created, while giving nothing back in return.

      If everyone thought it was better to release all their changes under the closed-source method, then *BSD would never advance, and we'd simply have a series of closed-source programs to run on BSD. Would you say this would be a good situtation?

      If you want to say that its ok to allow people to use Free Software and then release their changes under a closed-source licence, then we are just not going to agree here. I think that is a bad idea. You obviously don't.

    55. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

      My only point is that the argument that only GPL'd code is "free forever" is a bogus one.

      As for your argument about the BSD license, BSD code is available only because there are people who neither believe in the GPL or in making all their changes proprietary. So as usual, an argument starting with "if everyone" isn't valid in a practical sense.

      The philosphical difference between the two licenses is that the those who use the GPL want to control the destiny of other people's work if it's derived from theirs, while those who favor the BSD believe that their code is a gift to be used without strings attached.

    56. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by Cal+Paterson · · Score: 1

      "The philosphical difference between the two licenses is that the those who use the GPL want to control the destiny of other people's work if it's derived from theirs, while those who favor the BSD believe that their code is a gift to be used without strings attached."

      Putting it this way doesn't really describe the reasons for the difference. The GPL is specifically designed to protect the code it licences (in particular, to sustain the communities that create much of the Free Software we use) - the BSD makes no provision for this (though, like i said, this can be good too).
      As for your argument about the BSD license, BSD code is available only because there are people who neither believe in the GPL or in making all their changes proprietary. So as usual, an argument starting with "if everyone" isn't valid in a practical sense.

      Well, if everyone decided to exploit the BSD code (ie, if all enchancements were closed), then the community would die. There isn't really much question of that. I'm of the opinion that we may be heading for an age were this starts to happen. Apple, in particular are a big culprit of this; they've used BSD code, but haven't really released all of their stuff under the GPL.

    57. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

      "Well, if everyone decided to exploit the BSD code (ie, if all enchancements were closed), then the community would die. There isn't really much question of that."

      At the risk of rephrasing what I already said, the fact that BSD code exists at all indicates that the "if all enhancements were closed" scenario is very unlikely to occur. If people are motivated to create BSD code in the first place knowing that some enhancements will be closed, then they won't mind making enhancements under the same conditions.

      Having said that, the pro-GPL forces have waged a very successful disinformatoin campaign against the BSD and it has taken its toll.

    58. Re:I'll stick with the MIT license. by Cal+Paterson · · Score: 1

      "At the risk of rephrasing what I already said, the fact that BSD code exists at all indicates that the "if all enhancements were closed" scenario is very unlikely to occur. If people are motivated to create BSD code in the first place knowing that some enhancements will be closed, then they won't mind making enhancements under the same conditions."

      This is only really because of a general lack of interest in developing code for Free OS's. You're starting to have a problem: look at how much Apple leach from you. The really don't release enough of their sourcecode, and AFAIK, Sun had been ripping you off for years, until fairly recently.

  3. FULL TEXT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE
    Discussion Draft 1 of Version 3, 16 Jan 2006

    THIS IS A DRAFT, NOT A PUBLISHED VERSION OF THE GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE.

    Copyright (C) 2006 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
    51 Franklin Street, Fifth Floor, Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA
    Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies
    of this license document, but changing it is not allowed.

    Preamble

    The licenses for most software are designed to take away your
    freedom to share and change it. By contrast, the GNU General Public
    License is intended to guarantee your freedom to share and change free
    software--to make sure the software is free for all its users. We,
    the Free Software Foundation, use the GNU General Public License for
    most of our software; it applies also to any other program whose
    authors commit to using it. (Some Free Software Foundation software
    is covered by the GNU Lesser General Public License instead.) You
    can apply it to your programs, too.

    When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not
    price. Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that you
    have the freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge for
    this service if you wish), that you receive source code or can get it
    if you want it, that you can change the software or use pieces of it
    in new free programs; and that you know you can do these things.

    To protect your rights, we need to make requirements that forbid
    anyone to deny you these rights or to ask you to surrender the rights.
    These restrictions translate to certain responsibilities for you if you
    distribute copies of the software, or if you modify it.

    For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether
    gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that
    you have. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the
    source code. And you must show them these terms so they know their
    rights.

    Developers that use the GNU GPL protect your rights with two steps: (1)
    assert copyright on the software, and (2) offer you this License which
    gives you legal permission to copy, distribute and/or modify the software.

    For the developers' and author's protection, the GPL clearly explains
    that there is no warranty for this free software. If the software is
    modified by someone else and passed on, the GPL ensures that recipients
    are told that what they have is not the original, so that any problems
    introduced by others will not reflect on the original authors'
    reputations.

    Some countries have adopted laws prohibiting software that enables users
    to escape from Digital Restrictions Management. DRM is fundamentally
    incompatible with the purpose of the GPL, which is to protect users'
    freedom; therefore, the GPL ensures that the software it covers will
    neither be subject to, nor subject other works to, digital restrictions
    from which escape is forbidden.

    Finally, every program is threatened constantly by software patents. We
    wish to avoid the special danger that redistributors of a free program will
    individually obtain patent licenses, in effect making the program
    proprietary. To prevent this, the GPL makes it clear that any patent must
    be licensed for everyone's free use or not licensed at all.

    The precise terms and conditions for copying, distribution and
    modification follow.

    GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE
    TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR COPYING, DISTRIBUTION AND MODIFICATION

    0. Definitions.

    A "licensed program" means any program or other work distributed under
    this License. The "Program" refers to any such program or work, and a
    "work based on the Program" means either the Program or any derivative work
    under copyright law: that is to say, a work containing the Program or a
    portion of it, either modified or unmodified. Throughout this License, the
    term "modification" includes, without limitation, translation and
    extension

    1. Re:FULL TEXT by HeroreV · · Score: 2, Funny
      <script type="text/javascript">
        if( article.textContent.length > 3*librariesOfCongress )
        {
          var myPost = document.getPostByUser('herorev');
          myPost.appendChild( document.createTextNode('too long...') );
        }
      </script>
      too long...
  4. it's difficult to read. by skynare · · Score: 2, Insightful

    why is it so difficult to read?

    1. Re:it's difficult to read. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      why is it so difficult to read?

      I don't know but I see that you also find it difficult to start sentences with a capital letter. That's our first clue.

    2. Re:it's difficult to read. by nacturation · · Score: 1, Troll

      why is it so difficult to read?

      Because it's written by lawyers for lawyers, not for programmers. Gotta love the OpenBSD license. Excluding the warranty disclaimer and copyright notice, here's the entire text:

      "Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software for any
      purpose with or without fee is hereby granted, provided that the above
      copyright notice and this permission notice appear in all copies."

      I like my licenses without built-in ideologies.

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    3. Re:it's difficult to read. by david.gilbert · · Score: 1

      That's the funniest thing I've read today!

    4. Re:it's difficult to read. by winwar · · Score: 1, Troll

      "I like my licenses without built-in ideologies."

      Do you seriously think the OpenBSD license doesn't have a ideology? Of course it does. It is just one you accept.

      For instance, what is with this annoying requirement to give attribution? This idea that anyone can use it? That sounds like socialism! :)

      Every license has an ideology. There's a reason there are so many of them.....

    5. Re:it's difficult to read. by conradp · · Score: 2, Insightful
      By now you're redefining "ideologism" as "opinion" but there's a reason why they're not synonyms. "I think I might give some money to this beggar" is an opinion. "Let's kill the bloody people who have the nerve to oh gosh - actually WORK - and steal all their money and waste it on lowlife" is an ideology. The OpenBSD license is a bit like the first statement. GNU v3 is more like the second...

      Actually neither of those statements sounds like an opinion or an ideology. If you change them from "I think I might" and "Let's" to "People should" then both sound like ideologies.

      I think BSD and GPL both share almost the same ideology, "software should be free", but with different implementation paths. BSD says "software should be free, so I'm giving mine away." GPL says "software should be free, so I'm giving mine away, and ensuring that anyone who takes it also gives their software away."

      The BSD license is like saying "food should be free" and then setting up one free food stand where folks can take all the food they want. I believe that it's very noble, admirable, and charitable to be sure. But it's unlikely to change the world. Rather it's most likely that a bunch of fat rich people will pull up with trucks, take all the food they can carry, and then go to the nearest market and resell it all.
      --
      "To be absolutely certain about something, one must know everything or nothing about it." -- Olin Miller
    6. Re:it's difficult to read. by anothy · · Score: 1

      because somehow stallman and friends have managed to convince themselves that software licenses - legal documents - are an appropriate place for extended polemics and lectures on philosophy. folks saying "it's hard to read because it's for lawyers" are missing the point. licenses don't have to be hard to read. there's plenty of examples. the GPL rewrite is an ego stroking project for those leading it. they've very nearly said as much: read this, particularly the section about the four purposes of the GPLv3. it starts out well - "The GPL is a Worldwide Copyright License" - but deteriorates rapidly. a "Code of Conduct"? the "Constitution of the Free Software Movement"? WTF? that's kinda grandiose, no, Mr. Stallman? and then it comes together with the final one: "The GPL is the Literary Work of Richard M. Stallman".

      licenses don't have to be hard. Stallman has decided his should be literature instead. he's decided it should explicitly discuss his principles and philosophy, rather than be a legal reflection of the same. and i guess he's doing a good job of showing those principles, actually: a disregard for elegance, love of needless complexity, failure to modularize, and deference to form over function.

      --

      i speak for myself and those who like what i say.
    7. Re:it's difficult to read. by inflex · · Score: 1

      >>>Rather it's most likely that a bunch of fat rich people will pull up with trucks, take all the food they can carry, and then go to the nearest market and resell it all.

      Except that your food supply is unlimited.

    8. Re:it's difficult to read. by nacturation · · Score: 1

      The BSD license is like saying "food should be free" and then setting up one free food stand where folks can take all the food they want. I believe that it's very noble, admirable, and charitable to be sure. But it's unlikely to change the world. Rather it's most likely that a bunch of fat rich people will pull up with trucks, take all the food they can carry, and then go to the nearest market and resell it all.

      No, it's like saying that good recipes should be free. Then you put up a webpage with all the good recipes you can find. People are free to download those recipes and open up a restaurant, and either tell people where they got it or hide where they got it. They can use the recipes personally to enjoy it themselves. Or they can feed the world's hungry with great tasting food. Either way, the original recipes are still there for anyone to use. You'll often find that people contribute back with new recipes and ways to improve existing recipes to make them better tasting still.

      Your analogy, as the other poster pointed out, uses food (a limited resource) rather than information (an unlimited resource).

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    9. Re:it's difficult to read. by Schraegstrichpunkt · · Score: 1

      No kidding, I noticed the same thing! GPLv2 was a much easier read, though I haven't figured out *why* yet.

    10. Re:it's difficult to read. by r3m0t · · Score: 1
      Rather it's most likely that a bunch of fat rich people will pull up with trucks, take all the food they can carry, and then go to the nearest market and resell it all.
      Except that your food supply is unlimited.

      The analogy seems pretty accurate to me. The rich people just need to add a few grams of salt (or even "special sauce") and your free service becomes useless.

    11. Re:it's difficult to read. by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Have you ever read an EULA for proprietary software? Compared with that, it's easy reading!

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  5. How much of this... by krewemaynard · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...will hold up legally, and how much of it is just hot air and rants?

    "DRM is fundamentally incompatible with the purpose of the GPL, which is to protect users' freedom; therefore, the GPL ensures that the software it covers will neither be subject to, nor subject other works to, digital restrictions from which escape is forbidden." Sounds good and noble, but will it work?

    --
    I saw it on Slashdot, it must be true!
    1. Re:How much of this... by Renegade+Lisp · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I like the anti-DRM idea very much. From the draft:

      No covered work constitutes part of an effective technological protection measure: that is to say, distribution of a covered work as part of a system to generate or access certain data constitutes general permission at least for development, distribution and use, under this License, of other software capable of accessing the same data.

      To me, that sounds like a breathtakingly simple way to undermine the whole purpose of the DMCA and DRM, simply by saying: Software under this license can never be a protection device that people are not allowed to circumvent. Almost as simple and elegant as the idea of copyleft itself. I'm very impressed.

    2. Re:How much of this... by JanneM · · Score: 2, Interesting

      To me, that sounds like a breathtakingly simple way to undermine the whole purpose of the DMCA and DRM, simply by saying: Software under this license can never be a protection device that people are not allowed to circumvent. Almost as simple and elegant as the idea of copyleft itself. I'm very impressed.

      I'm not. That would mean that any cryptographic software could never be GPL licensed. You won't have a Free implementation of the protocol used for you to connect securely to your bank, since it is illegal in many places to intercept and decrypt such privileged communications.

      --
      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
    3. Re:How much of this... by trickycamel · · Score: 1

      You don't think the FSF lawyers (including Eben Moglen) considered that question before publishing the draft?

      Besides, if you don't think it'll hold up, submit a comment

      --
      Sig? What sig?
    4. Re:How much of this... by Spy+Hunter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Note that they are not forbidding GPL DRM software. Instead they are forbidding you from suing people who try to break your DRM. If your DRM actually works (i.e. is not breakable), then you should have no problem with this. However, we all know that actual working DRM is technically infeasible. If you disagree with this clause of the GPL you are admitting that DRM is impotent without constant police-state enforcement. Basically, this change to the GPL exposes DRM as the fraud it has always been.

      --
      main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
    5. Re:How much of this... by _marshall · · Score: 1

      Furthermore it's completely redundant. If I was going to write a peice of software that imposes DRM on my users, why in gods name would I want to make it open source (GPL or not)? It would be ridiculously easy to circumvent.

      This is just an opportunity for a little soap-boxing in the license IMO (and we know RMS is completely capable of that..)

    6. Re:How much of this... by jZnat · · Score: 1

      I don't think anyone would license that sort of software under the GPL anyhow. Take a look at OpenBSD and its largely successful OpenSSH.

      --
      'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
    7. Re:How much of this... by JanneM · · Score: 1

      I don't think anyone would license that sort of software under the GPL anyhow. Take a look at OpenBSD and its largely successful OpenSSH.

      GPG would suddenly break its own license.

      And enlighten me, why would nobody want to GPL license any software that happens to incoroprate secure communication or storage?

      --
      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
    8. Re:How much of this... by Hewligan · · Score: 2, Informative

      Of course you can still write crypto software under GPL v3. That clause just means that the security measures you've created have no legal protection from circumvention.

      In other words, you could write ssh under GPL v3, but it would be legal to crack it. Not necessarily possible, just legal.

      --

      "If God created us in his own image, we have more than reciprocated"

    9. Re:How much of this... by mickwd · · Score: 1

      Yes, maybe they should have got a Professor of Law and Legal History to help them write this. Oh wait, they did.

      "Hot air and rants" ? You could have written something like "wishful thinking". Somehow, you don't come across as exactly neutral.

    10. Re:How much of this... by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      It seems to be a supremely useless clause - it stops people creating GPL DRM software (as if anyone would be mad enough to try that) but It doesn't stop someone wrapping the GPL code *inside* DRM software. Yes, you'd have to release the code to the GPL bits but you'd never prove in a million years that it was *all* the code.

    11. Re:How much of this... by JanneM · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In other words, you could write ssh under GPL v3, but it would be legal to crack it. Not necessarily possible, just legal.

      Nope. In most countries at least, law trumps contract. What would happen is that the license is invalidated, and the software in no longer free.

      --
      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
    12. Re:How much of this... by Aim+Here · · Score: 1

      I think you're slightly confused. DRM can be open sourced, as long as the actual key to decrypt your data is somehow kept secret from the poor bugger using it - in much the same way your Linux box encrypts your password in an entirely open-source manner, although the password itself is secret.

      In fact, Sun has started work on an "open source DRM system" already. It's a pity that it wasn't using the GPLv2; that way anyone could make a GPLv3 derivative of it, then deny Sun the right to sue under the DMCA. Oh well.

      "Open Source DRM" is ironic, like having a concentration camp run by a non-heirarchical, politically correct worker's co-operative. It's not impossible, unfortunately.

    13. Re:How much of this... by HermanAB · · Score: 1

      It is a very strong legal document, based on Copyright law, which is pretty uniform accross the globe, due to international treaties. It was drawn up by a well known law professor, so I would say it is as good as it gets. The plain English used in the document, is OK - you don't necessarily need Latin words in a legal document, although Latin would make it far more concise.

      --
      Oh well, what the hell...
    14. Re:How much of this... by cfulmer · · Score: 1

      Which Law Professor? To be honest, that doesn't impress me very much -- many law professors haven't actually practiced a day of their lives.

      The biggest problem with the GPL, even the new version, is that it doesn't really address enforceability. At the very minimum, it should specifically say that when you make a modification to the work, you are creating a derivative work not contributing to a joint work (it tries to say this in the definition of "Work based on the program," but doesn't actually get there.) But, it should also talk about who owns the copyright in modifications and who has the right to license the software under different terms. It doesn't have choice-of-law or choice-of-venue -- these omissions naturally make enforcement harder.

      I don't know why you think it's a "Strong Legal Document" -- what does that even mean? To me, that expression would mean "It's clear and you know that if you break it, you're in deep trouble." At least the second half of this isn't true -- witness the Sony DRM software that included GPL'd code, but has yet to yield an infringement suit.

    15. Re:How much of this... by HermanAB · · Score: 1

      You don't trust Eben Moglen?

      --
      Oh well, what the hell...
    16. Re:How much of this... by phliar · · Score: 1
      Software under this license can never be a protection device that people are not allowed to circumvent.

      That would mean that any cryptographic software could never be GPL licensed.

      Why? If the only thing keeping your cryptosystem secure is that people cannot legally reverse-engineer or decrypt it, you have bigger things to worry about.
      --
      Unlimited growth == Cancer.
    17. Re:How much of this... by JanneM · · Score: 1

      Why? If the only thing keeping your cryptosystem secure is that people cannot legally reverse-engineer or decrypt it, you have bigger things to worry about.

      Enforceability or effectiveness has nothing to do with this at all. It means (if I understand that clause correctly, which I well might not, of course) that the mere prescence of a law restricting unauthorized decryption - even when utterly toothless, never enforced, a sad, pathetic remnant of an earlier age still unaccountably on the books - automatically invalidates the new GPL license if you try to apply it to such software. Something like GPG could, in other words, be BSD or MIT licenced, have GPL version2, or be proprietary, but could not be published under GPL3.

      --
      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
    18. Re:How much of this... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      You are incorrect. Crypotographic software can and will be GPL licensed. The only catch will be that if you release cryptographic software under the GPL and someone breaks your codes you can't sue then under the DMCA.

    19. Re:How much of this... by bnenning · · Score: 1

      The biggest problem with the GPL, even the new version, is that it doesn't really address enforceability.

      IANAL, but I don't think it has to. If Bob takes Alice's GPLed app and distributes a modified version while refusing to provide the source, Alice doesn't sue Bob for "violating the GPL", she sues him for copyright infringement. Bob can't claim the GPL as a defense since he hasn't fulfilled its conditions, and nothing else grants him permission to redistribute the copyrighted work, so he loses.

      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    20. Re:How much of this... by ubernostrum · · Score: 1

      Sounds good and noble, but will it work?

      When a license's terms involve a possibly ambiguous situation, it's often helpful to know the intent of the licensor, which is why you see language in the draft like "Each of its provisions shall be interpreted in light of this specific declaration of the licensor's intent."

      I've used contracts before which took this tack as well; saying something like "this clause shall be interpreted by all parties in light of this stated intent" adds one more layer of safety in case a provision unexpectedly turns out to be ambiguous.

    21. Re:How much of this... by dhasenan · · Score: 1

      GNU Communis Publicas Potestas
      Omnes exempla ad verbum transcribire distribuereque posunt, sed mutare non sinerint.

      Exordium.
      Permissiones plurimi

      And that's where it goes to pieces. I had a link to a technical Latin dictionary, concentrating on computing terms; I seem to have lost it, though.

    22. Re:How much of this... by lskovlund · · Score: 1
      GNU Communis Publicas Potestas

      Try "GNU Licentia Publica Generalis".
      Would mod you Funny, but the similarity between "license" and "licentia" should be striking.

  6. The slippery slope begins... by Otter · · Score: 1, Troll

    So "freedom for users" has now been redefined to "freedom for users, except for one group of users that we don't like". I'm curious to see who the second group is going to be...

    1. Re:The slippery slope begins... by giorgiofr · · Score: 1

      Welcome to the world of liberticides, also known as politicians.

      --
      Global warming is a cube.
    2. Re:The slippery slope begins... by Bogtha · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, this draft doesn't limit use in any way. The restrictions are when you want to distribute copies or use the software in derivative works. I quote from the draft:

      This License explicitly affirms your unlimited permission to run the Program.

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    3. Re:The slippery slope begins... by Otter · · Score: 1
      Section 7e:
      They may impose software patent retaliation, which means permission for use of your added parts terminates or may be terminated, wholly or partially, under stated conditions, for users closely related to any party that has filed a software patent lawsuit (i.e., a lawsuit alleging that some software infringes a patent).
      As I understand that, it is now consistent with the GPL to add a clause to the license, even to derivatives of code licensed under the base GPL, barring individuals from using software if they're pursuing a completely unrelated patent lawsuit. Am I missing something?
    4. Re:The slippery slope begins... by Bogtha · · Score: 1

      The way I read it, all it means is that the GPL is compatible with licenses that have these types of clauses in them. So, for example, your application that is licensed in this way can still use GPLed libraries like Readline legally.

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    5. Re:The slippery slope begins... by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1

      It may not be entirely as sinister as you suggest. There are several open source licenses currently out there that already have patent retaliation terms like that. The GPL is currently incompatible with these licenses, and this would remove that conflict. (Removing such conflicts was one of the goals of this revision.)

    6. Re:The slippery slope begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > So "freedom for users" has now been redefined to "freedom for users, except for one group of users that we don't like". I'm curious to see who the second group is going to be...

      That "one group" you're talking about are not those who use the software, but those who redistribute it or modifications to it. And they only freedom they lose is that of taking away freedom of those who merely use the software.

      I, for one, will not miss my freedom to enslave if it is lost.

      Captcha: unrest

    7. Re:The slippery slope begins... by rhizome · · Score: 1

      As I understand that, it is now consistent with the GPL to add a clause to the license, even to derivatives of code licensed under the base GPL, barring individuals from using software if they're pursuing a completely unrelated patent lawsuit. Am I missing something?

      Yes. Copyright law does not have any provisions governing usage at all.

      --
      When I was a kid, we only had one Darth.
    8. Re:The slippery slope begins... by TuringTest · · Score: 1

      As I understand that, it is now consistent with the GPL to add a clause to the license, even to derivatives of code licensed under the base GPL, barring individuals from using software if they're pursuing a completely unrelated patent lawsuit. Am I missing something?

      Maybe the rest of the section?:

      The conditions must limit retaliation to a subset of these two cases: 1. Lawsuits that lack the justification of retaliating against other software patent lawsuits that lack such justification. 2. Lawsuits that target part of this work, or other code that was elsewhere released together with the parts you added, the whole being under the terms used here for those parts.

      I don't understand what all this means, so I'm not sure if these two cases answer your question.

      --
      Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
    9. Re:The slippery slope begins... by Cal+Paterson · · Score: 1

      It's clearly meant to be "Freedom for users, except users than restrict the freedom of other users".

    10. Re:The slippery slope begins... by JudicatorX · · Score: 1

      I bet your brain went *wonk* when you realized that tolerant societies are intolerant of intolerance, right?

      --
      "It is a good divine that follows his own instructions" - Portia, The Merchant of Venice
    11. Re:The slippery slope begins... by Arandir · · Score: 1

      No, this draft doesn't limit use in any way. The restrictions are when you want to distribute copies or use the software in derivative works.

      Is it just me, or does anyone see the huge gaping irony in that statement?

      --
      A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
    12. Re:The slippery slope begins... by Bogtha · · Score: 1

      No, the word 'use' is being used in two different ways. The first way is running the software, the second way is incorporating that software into a derivative work. It's just the ambiguity of the English language coupled with my bad choice of words that clouds the issue. It's not really "using" an application when you are editing the source code that the application is built with, is it?

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    13. Re:The slippery slope begins... by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

      They are synonymous. To "use" software means many specific things, but they are all instances of utilization. Both execution and dynamic linking are forms of utilizing the software. But the FSF says the GPL regulates the second usage, even though the latter does not copy, distribute or modify the licensed software.

      Whether or not the latter form of use/utilization constitutes derivation is still under debate. The FSF says it does, but other people say it doesn't. Copyright law itself is quite silent on the matter.

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    14. Re:The slippery slope begins... by Bob+of+Dole · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Too many people seem to misunderstand the GPL as some kind of anti-capitalism or anti-people-stallman-doesn't-like, but it really boils down to:
      You have complete freedom, except to take away other people's freedom.

      Which is so obvious an idea it's a suprise that it took as long as it did for the GPL license to show up.

  7. Argh, bad text layout... by Al+Dimond · · Score: 2, Funny

    Gah... why couldn't there be a web page that didn't have BR tags at the 80-character mark every time. This is like reading e-mail in the 90s! (Actually this looks like a plone-based site so it's probably serving up auto-generated *ml from a text file... which is no excuse, really. If vim can fix up stuff like that then plone could too.)

    1. Re:Argh, bad text layout... by Harik · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because it's designed to be read in a text terminal, with source code
      which is also generally (gasp) 80 columns.

      I know some of you new Eclipse/Visual Studio DOT NET guys love 30000
      character lines, and don't get me started on perl, but for the projects
      I work on having long lines is a drawback. And has email REALLY improved
      since the mid 90s? I force HTML to downconvert to text and strip all the
      bullshit markup before it hits my inbox. No blinky pictures, no flash
      graphics, no webbugs, no <FONT SIZE +5000><FONT COLOR=BLOOD RED>
      <BOLD><UNDERLINE><ITALIC><BLINK><MARQUEE> tags.

      Those of us with functioning braincells and an attention span greater then
      a gnat miss the email of the 90s.

    2. Re:Argh, bad text layout... by belmolis · · Score: 1
      And has email REALLY improved since the mid 90s?

      What do you mean mid-90s? Email was just fine in the mid-80s. I still use Berkeley mailx almost all the time. The main exception is when I have to send an attachment. I don't even like those new-fangled things like Pine and MH, much-less webmail. If only somebody would update mailx to handle attachments...

    3. Re:Argh, bad text layout... by Bogtha · · Score: 1

      Because it's designed to be read in a text terminal, with source code which is also generally (gasp) 80 columns.

      So? This is the year 2006, such a thing as "word wrap" has been invented. If you strip out all the <br> elements, it would still display just fine in a text terminal, and would look a lot better in non-text terminals. In typical displays, that page displays a line and a half before an extremely unnatural line break in the middle of the line, then another line and a half, and so on. It makes it very frustrating to read.

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    4. Re:Argh, bad text layout... by Hosiah · · Score: 1

      See, I keep my tabs set to something close to 80 characters as well, because I'm a CSS freak and I'm writing to shoot down that narrow floating box in the center with sidebars all 'round.

    5. Re:Argh, bad text layout... by JanneM · · Score: 1

      And meanwhile, those people needing sixty character lines on their screen to see anything are being left out in the cold.

      One point of the web is to let the users format to their preferences, not having formatting imposed on them by the originator. That goes for badly formatted text files just as much as it does for flash-sites from hell.

      --
      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
    6. Re:Argh, bad text layout... by NickFortune · · Score: 1
      Amen, Brother!

      Mutt is just about tolerable, but an attachment friendly version of mailx...

      You never know, maybe when I next get some free time. After all, I can probably lift most of the code from Mutt. How hard can it be?

      --
      Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
    7. Re:Argh, bad text layout... by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1

      It's still nowhere near as bad as most proprietary EULAs, where you are forced to read a 10,000 words of all-caps legalese inside non-resizeable 2-inch by 2-inch scrolling text box.

    8. Re:Argh, bad text layout... by burndive · · Score: 1

      This lisence is meant to be included in software code. The only reason it is provided on the web is for people to, without reformatting (once it becomes final) prepend it to their source files. Therefore it should be formatted for code, not the web. When I'm hacking my kernel, I'm going to want to use a command-line editor to view source files, and word-wrapping is just annoying on 25x80 screens. Short lines are not a problem, and 80 columns is the standard.

      Deal with it.

      --
      ...because "hacker" sounds way sexier than "code drone."
    9. Re:Argh, bad text layout... by ubernostrum · · Score: 1

      Because it's designed to be read in a text terminal

      But when the text is being displayed in a web page which supports word wrapping, why shouldn't the text be allowed to flow appropriately? There is such a thing as adapting content to the medium in which it will be displayed, you know.

    10. Re:Argh, bad text layout... by Al+Dimond · · Score: 1

      God damn. I have ranted many times on this website about people that use excessive line lengths. I program in fucking vim, often in the console. For those situations limiting line length to 80 characters is what should be done. When making plain old text files designed to be viewed straight on screens that's what should be done. In fact I've argued on slashdot before that programming is much easier when lines are truncated at less than 80 characters (In some programs a 70-character line looks out of place, so I'll split that too).

      On web pages that's not what should be done. Leave out the BR tags and let the web browser do the word wrapping. The way this page rendered on my computer I had to widen my browser window so the wasn't wrapping around before 80 characters. It looked like this:

      Here is some text blah blah blah text
      and the end
      of each 80-character line wraps to the
      next line
      making it very hard to read.

      In VIM when you have text that looks like this you can put your cursor in the paragraph and type "gqap" and it formats the current paragraph with line breaks matching your terminal width. This is good. It appears that the web page linked to in the article summary was generated dynamically by Plone from a text file with linebreaks every 80 characters (which is a fine way to write a text file), but since everyone's browser windows are different sizes Plone should use similar logic to VIM to strip out all the linebreaks that don't mean "new paragraph" before converting line breaks to BR tags.

      I don't know how your ass gets modded up insightful by flaming me about e-mail. I get my e-mail with mutt on the fucking console. In the mother fucking nineties dumb e-mail programs when sending a quote in a reply would take text formatted to 80 characters, stick a few characters at the beginning of each line and just send it off, leading to the same thing that happens with this article viewed in a narrow browser window. That's what I mean by 90s e-mail. Plain text e-mail is a good thing. Programs should figure out how to deal with it intelligently. Just like that this new GPL document being plain text, 80 characters is a good thing, but Plone should create output suited for the web.

      Yeah, this would mean that plone would have to have different rules for displaying text than code. But if you're displaying a web site you should display it like a web site. In fact, the BR nonsense should be replaced with P tags!

  8. Cut the "any later version" option by Bromskloss · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What keeps me from using the GPL is the "any later version" option. How do I know that GPL version 17 wont give every user of my software a right to come by my house for a free lunch? Or a car. You know, unless most significant software, everything in this world isn't free as in lunch. That holds for example for most lunches.

    --
    Swedish plasma phys. PhD student; MSc EE; knows maths, programming, electronics; finance interest; seeks opportunities
    1. Re:Cut the "any later version" option by belmolis · · Score: 4, Informative

      The phrase "or any later version" is not part of the GPL. Rather it is part of the statement in which you specify that the GPL is the license that you are using. The FSF recommends including this phrase but it isn't required by them or by the GPL. You are perfectly free to specify a particular version of the GPL if you wish to.

    2. Re:Cut the "any later version" option by arose · · Score: 1

      It's not part of the GPL, you can cut it yourself and be fully compatible with the choosen version.

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    3. Re:Cut the "any later version" option by product+byproduct · · Score: 1

      What other posters said is true, and you can confirm it from the source. From the GNU General Public License:

      "If the Program does not specify a version number of this License, you may choose any version ever published by the Free Software Foundation."

      So the solution is to SPECIFY A VERSION NUMBER. i.e. you would write:

      "This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License (version 2 exclusively) as published by the Free Software Foundation."

    4. Re:Cut the "any later version" option by Frogbert · · Score: 1

      Well if you don't like that clause can't you just cut it out?

    5. Re:Cut the "any later version" option by Max+Threshold · · Score: 1

      Aside from what the other commenters said... if someone chose to distribute your program under the "free lunch" version of the GPL, it would be their house people would be going to, not yours. So no worries.

    6. Re:Cut the "any later version" option by ClamIAm · · Score: 1
      How do I know that GPL version 17 wont give every user of my software a right to come by my house for a free lunch?

      This sounds like the "Mitch Hedberg edition" GPL.

    7. Re:Cut the "any later version" option by Flyboy+Connor · · Score: 1
      How do I know that GPL version 17 wont give every user of my software a right to come by my house for a free lunch?

      Because the GPL only talks about the software, not about the software's creator.

      If the GPL version 17 states that every user of the software has the right to go to Bill Gates and receive a million dollars from him, do you think that Bill really has to cough up that dough? Well, that is exactly the same as the GPL version 17 stating that the original author of the software has to give the user a million dollars.

      Basically, when the software comes under the GPL, it is out there; there is no "sole owner" anymore, it is just lines of code, for everyone to use, under the GPL. Sure, someone may still hold copyrights, but those are just rights, not obligations.

  9. From this... by IAAP · · Score: 2, Interesting
    From the last paragraph section 1: As a special exception, the Complete Corresponding Source Code need not include a particular subunit if (a) the identical subunit is normally included as an adjunct in the distribution of either a major essential component (kernel, window system, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs or a compiler used to produce the executable or an object code interpreter used to run it, and (b) the subunit (aside from possible incidental extensions) serves only to enable use of the work with that system component or compiler or interpreter, or to implement a widely used or standard interface, the implementation of which requires no patent license not already generally available for software under this License.

    I'm reading this as (bold area): if I compile my code with GCC and link with a GNU library, my code will not fall under the GNU license unlese I sat it does.

    1. Re:From this... by ari_j · · Score: 1
      As a special exception, the Complete Corresponding Source Code need not include a particular subunit if ... the identical subunit is normally included as an adjunct in the distribution of either a major essential component (kernel, window system, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs or a compiler used to produce the executable or an object code interpreter used to run it ...
      I read it differently than you did. Assuming (without reading the rest of the new GPL yet) that "Complete Corresponding Source Code" refers to the thing you have to distribute along with a binary copy to comply with the GPL, then what this says to me is that you don't have to include pieces of the compiler just because your program uses them. For instance, if you #include , you don't have to put stdio.h into the tarball of your sources when you distribute them.

      I think that this passage alone could have been written so much better as to put the entire document into suspicion.
    2. Re:From this... by Bogtha · · Score: 1

      No, it means that if a library you use comes as standard with either the OS or the compiler, you don't have to provide source for that library. Current versions of the GPL include similar clauses.

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    3. Re:From this... by mrsbrisby · · Score: 1

      if I compile my code with GCC and link with a GNU library, my code will not fall under the GNU license unlese I sat it does.

      It doesn't say that at all. It says that if you have to redistribute source with a binary because it's under the GPL, you don't have to redistribute everything that was used to make that binary if those listed conditions are met. For example, IF your code is derived from GPL code, or is otherwise redistributable under the GNU GPL, one doesn't have to redistribute GCC and the GNU C Library to satisfy the GPL: they would only have to redistribute the code in question, and not any "sub units" that are used to make it up.

      That said, if it's your code it's your decision whether it's GPL or not (or maybe your employer's decision). If your code is actually derived from someone elses' code that GPL then your code is automatically redistributable under the GPL.

      GCC has things like __builtin_apply that are GCC-specific. Ordinarily using these things would constitute a dependancy on GCC. This is why GCC has a special exception in its copying-terms. If this exception did not exist and you used __builtin_apply then you would have to redistribute GCC as well.

      A better (more realistic) example is if your code links with libbinio which IS under the GNU GPL v2. Your code would be derived from it, and thus your code would be redistributable under the GNU GPL, but if libbinio is "ordinarily available" you wouldn't have to redistribute libbinio as well, and could simply refer people to it.

    4. Re:From this... by NutscrapeSucks · · Score: 1

      And this clause is signficantly improved over v2 -- Which seemed to imply that operating systems always shipped with compliers like 1980s Unix.

      Previous to this, it was never really clear if it was allowable to build GPL software using something like Java or VB. (FSF said it was, but the licence itself said not.)

      --
      Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
    5. Re:From this... by HermanAB · · Score: 1

      Yes, that has always been true, also with previous versions of the GPL. That is why you need to include a Copyright statement in your code referencing the GPL.

      --
      Oh well, what the hell...
  10. Because it's a legal document. by pavon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The same reason that code is hard to read by non-programmers, or medical papers are hard to read by people without medical training. The law, like any field, needs precise language to communicate. Many words have special legal meanings that are subtly different from common speech (or not so subtle if language has diverged over time). This is necisarry for the same reason that you can't use plain english to write code - plain english leaves to much open for interpretation. When you write legal documents, you want the judge interpreting your document, should it ever go to court, to read it the way you intended it to be read. The best way to do this is to use the accepted legal terminology.

    1. Re:Because it's a legal document. by slux · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That may well be the case but I see it very problematic that normal citizens are unable to understand what exactly the laws their government imposes on them are saying. Or that they are forced to accept legal agreements written in the same language every day.

      Legalese should really strive to be readable and understandable to the point by the average person. If indeed what you are saying is true and there is really no way to state these things in a clear and logical way then some kind of measures should be taken to ensure that everyone can get the help they need in interpreting the arcane mumblings of the law.

    2. Re:Because it's a legal document. by Sloppy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I know how you feel. Not everyone is expected or required to be able to read a computer program or medical paper. But everyone is expected and required to obey the law.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    3. Re:Because it's a legal document. by T-Ranger · · Score: 1

      Well, see, its like this. You know about health. Eat your veggies. Get your fat ass out of your chair once in a while. But if you have a serious health problem, or want a serious health question answered, we have these special people who can help. We call them Doctors.

      And you know about law. Dont kill people. Stop at stop signs. Dont cary condoms filled with cocaine in your ass when crossing international borders. But if you have a legal problem, or want a point of law clarified, we have these special people who can help. We call them Lawyers.

    4. Re:Because it's a legal document. by tepples · · Score: 1

      But if you have a legal problem, or want a point of law clarified, we have these special people who can help. We call them Lawyers.

      So why are lawyers' services so damn expensive?

    5. Re:Because it's a legal document. by penguin-collective · · Score: 1

      The law, like any field, needs precise language to communicate.

      Unfortunately, that's a goal that the legal profession has realized only imperfectly; right now, legal language is not so much "precise", but a bag of tricks to guard against the most common and damaging misinterpretations. It still beats colloquial language, though.

      But, then, the same can be said for computer scientists...

    6. Re:Because it's a legal document. by Flyboy+Connor · · Score: 1
      This is necisarry for the same reason that you can't use plain english to write code - plain english leaves to much open for interpretation.

      That may be a good idea, and I once thought that was the reason, too. However, a couple of years ago I had to create an expert system that allowed a user to check whether he was conforming to a specific law. The legal document was about 30 pages thick, and I could not read it well, but I had lawyers supporting me in creating the system. "Should be no problem," I thought, "because this is a legal document and as such it should not be open to interpretation." But what I found was different. There were about a dozen articles in this document which the lawyers could not translate for me in understandable language. So I presented them with cases, to find out how these should be decided. Several of these cases could not be solved. Then one lawyer (who was co-author of the original document) admitted to me that they had left many of the articles purposefully vague, so that later on, when a conflict would arise, a judge could make a decision as he would see fit. They simply did not dare to make unequivocal decisions, because several big companies would be affected by this law, and they would certainly attack it if it would have too negative an impact. Actually, during the creation of this expert system at several points I found conflicting statements in the text, which caused the law to be changed.

  11. TiVo by metamatic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Well, it'll stop those fsckers at TiVo from using Linux in hardware devices that are locked down so you can't read the data or modify the software without serious hardware hacking.

    --
    GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
    1. Re:TiVo by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      No, TIvo could still require serious hacking. First off, if the code is in user space, it isn't necessarily GPLed. Second, even if its in kernal space, it doesn't require it to be easy- just for it to be legal.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    2. Re:TiVo by bersl2 · · Score: 1

      Assuming Linus undertakes the gargantuan effort to relicense Linux under the GPLv3, that is. And even then, as long as they comply with v2, nothing can revoke their license to use, modify, or distribute the current code base.

    3. Re:TiVo by phliar · · Score: 2, Informative
      The Linux kernel is under GPL v2. There is no "automatic upgrade" of future kernel versions to GPL v3. Even if there were, versions already released are unaffected. Once you have a copy of the kernel under GPL v2, that code's status can never be changed. Once something is released under a certain license, ceteris paribus that copy remains under it.

      --
      Unlimited growth == Cancer.
  12. Incomprehensible by undeadly · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The new GPL is, well, "wordy", bit not all that clear. And to be quite frank, I understand that I don't understand it.

    The new GPL have the following:

    This License gives unlimited permission to privately modify and run the
    Program, provided you do not bring suit for patent infringement against
    anyone for making, using or distributing their own works based on the
    Program.

    So patent law mixed with how I use the software, and privately at that. Can I use GPLv3 software in a company (it's not private, usually)? Can I modify it, but not distribute it outside the company? If I don't do this privately, but as a "corporate" person, then it's not private, so I can do what I want (of course not). This is just in the beginning of the new license, and it goes on and on and on and on etc.

    Really, why not make a license that I don't need to be a lawyer to understand?

    1. Re:Incomprehensible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      First of all, it would have been a good idea to make a license that a lawyer would understand. The converse (as seen here) is rather bad for enforceability.

    2. Re:Incomprehensible by BobNET · · Score: 1

      Really, why not make a license that I don't need to be a lawyer to understand?

      That's what the BSD license is for...

    3. Re:Incomprehensible by bersl2 · · Score: 1

      Really, why not make a license that I don't need to be a lawyer to understand?

      A license that is easy to understand is not the purpose of the GPL. The purpose of the GPL is to uphold the principles of Free Software.

      If you want a license that's easy to understand, use another one, like BSD or MIT. Personally, I think that the FSF has demonstrated the ability to translate the here-represented complex ideas into valid legalese.

    4. Re:Incomprehensible by undeadly · · Score: 1
      A license that is easy to understand is not the purpose of the GPL. The purpose of the GPL is to uphold the principles of Free Software.

      Only GPL is "Free Software", nevermind that they add more restrictions? How pretensious.

    5. Re:Incomprehensible by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      Basicly, you can always use a GPLv3 product UNLESS you sue the author for patent infringement. In which case you can't. A corporation can use it just like a normal human user, so long as they do not sue the author for patent infringement. If they do, the corporation can't use it. An individual employee could in his off time, I'd assume, but not on work equipment or work time, or for work purposes.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    6. Re:Incomprehensible by chill · · Score: 1

      That's what the BSD license is for...

      The BSD license doesn't address the issue of patents. Unfortunately, software patents are a nightmare the U.S. has unleashed upon the world and henceforth need to be addressed.

      GPLv3 attempts to address patents as well as the DMCA, by stating that GPL-licensed software can't be considered an "effective deterrent".

        -Charles

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    7. Re:Incomprehensible by bersl2 · · Score: 1

      Where did I say or imply anything exclusive about the GPL w.r.t. Free Software? The GPL existing to support Free Software does not mean that other licenses cannot also support Free Software.

      As for adding more restrictions, here we renew the age-old argument about the scope of "free". Free for whom? The GPL restricts potential developers that they not restrict the user. If you want freedom for the developer, you should use a different license.

    8. Re:Incomprehensible by A+Bookworm · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sorry to tell you this, but you answered your last question in the preceding paragraph.

      While IANAL, I believe that the word, "privately" is different in legalese from how you're using it. A company can be "private" or "public" depending on whether or not it trades shares publicly. Or, perhaps you're trying to say that your actions within a company aren't "private" because they're not done by one individual for and by themselves. Yet a "private" action can be performed by a company by itself and for itself. It can also be done by an employee of the company for the company. In that regard it is still "privately" done.

      This is why there's all the "legalese" in the GPL3. In order to make it usable in the courts it needs to be written in a dialect that will be interpreted the same way by the writer and any legal reader (another lawyer or judge).

      If you're finding the license difficult to understand, you have at least a couple of options:
      1) Get a lawyer's professional explanation and opinion (of course, this will cost money).
      2) Go check out the website and choose what legal opinions you will trust. There's plenty of them available.

    9. Re:Incomprehensible by mrsbrisby · · Score: 1

      Really, why not make a license that I don't need to be a lawyer to understand?

      They did. The license is written in this way so that lawyers (and judges) don't have to be programmers in order to understand them.

      Can I use GPLv3 software in a company (it's not private, usually)?

      The GPL doesn't invalidate other reasons why you wouldn't be able to, but otherwise yes.

      Can I modify it, but not distribute it outside the company?

      If you're acting as the company-entity then yes. If not, then the normal rules apply.

      All the quoted paragraph says is that if you take advantage of the freedoms the GNU GPL v3 gives you, you cannot use Patent Law to take those freedoms away from others that are taking advantage of the same freedoms that you did.

    10. Re:Incomprehensible by Timothy+Brownawell · · Score: 1
      The new GPL have the following:

      This License gives unlimited permission to privately modify and run the
      Program, provided you do not bring suit for patent infringement against
      anyone for making, using or distributing their own works based on the
      Program.

      So patent law mixed with how I use the software, and privately at that. Can I use GPLv3 software in a company (it's not private, usually)? Can I modify it, but not distribute it outside the company? If I don't do this privately, but as a "corporate" person, then it's not private, so I can do what I want (of course not).

      "Privately" would be "not for distribution", so for your own personal use for you, or for internal use by a company.

      "If you don't redistribute the software, you can do anything you want with it. Unless you sue people, in which case you can only do what copyright law says you can (which isn't very much)."

      Tim
      IANAL

    11. Re:Incomprehensible by Schraegstrichpunkt · · Score: 1

      GPLv2 was easy to understand.

    12. Re:Incomprehensible by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Really, why not make a license that I don't need to be a lawyer to understand?

      I have a better suggestion, how about we write LAWS that we don't need to be lawyers to understand? :D

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  13. It began a long time ago. by Some+Random+Username · · Score: 1

    "Freedom for users" was already redefined to mean "freedom for users, except for ones we don't like". You were just ok with who they didn't like before (people using non-GPL licenses). They are simply extending the scope of who they don't like.

    1. Re:It began a long time ago. by Melfina · · Score: 1

      I thought Stallman was a bit older than Linus~

      --
      :3 rawr.
    2. Re:It began a long time ago. by ABoerma · · Score: 1

      You thought Stalin would have something like age prevent him outliving Linus? The KGB has a Helsinki branch...

  14. WTF is that icon? by ezeecheez · · Score: 1

    Is some smart-ass making a joke about the GIMP image editor?

  15. No more GPG encryption by Ur@eus · · Score: 1

    Only skimmed it so far, but I wonder if their eagerness to stop copyprotection and DRM scheemes means that you can't use the GPL3 for email applications supporting GPG encrpytion, or not at least without giving away your private GPG keys :)

    1. Re:No more GPG encryption by Josh+Triplett · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No; this draft includes specific language handling that case: "a code need not be included in cases where use of the work normally implies the user already has it." In other words, this only covers cases where you don't have the key, such as devices which check signatures on their firmware binaries.

    2. Re:No more GPG encryption by AuMatar · · Score: 3, Informative

      YOu're misreading the legalese. When it says that any GPLed program is not an effective DRM app, it means that by hacking around content protected by a GPL application, you are not breaking the DMCA. Because the DMCA makes it illegal to circumvent a protection device, but the GPLed app is not legally a protection device, as per the GPL. It doesn't mean that you can't use encryption, but that its not illegal to reverse engineer an encryption system it uses.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    3. Re:No more GPG encryption by miyako · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This just kind of popped into my head- but I wonder. If GPG is not considered an "effective protection devise" or whatever the legalease is- could a company who was using GPG to protect customer information or some such be sued for failing to provide "adequate" protection of customer information.

      --
      Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
    4. Re:No more GPG encryption by mce · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The problem with that is that the app "not being an effective DRM app" is specifically tuned to target the US DMCA, wheras the GPL has to survive internationally. Other countries, other definitions, so: 1) Who says that "not being an effective DRM app" is any good at defeating the local DMCA equivalent of country X? and 2) Who says that it isn't in conflict with national law regarding what consititutes DRM in country Y?

    5. Re:No more GPG encryption by AuMatar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      DMCA is a civil tort, not a criminal law. By using the GPL, they would voluntarily give up their right to sue by declaring they aren't a protection device. Its not a matter of trumping in this case.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    6. Re:No more GPG encryption by VENONA · · Score: 1

      Somebody please mod parent 'interesting'. That could be a serious downside, hitting marketshare, if it turned out to be the case. I'd not be surprised to see a minor hit based on a future MS Get The Facts campaign article trumpeting this--whether it's actually a possibility or not.

      --
      What you do with a computer does not constitute the whole of computing.
    7. Re:No more GPG encryption by AtomicX · · Score: 1

      As I understood it, the statement that any work covered by the GPL is not an "effective protection measure" does not mean that the software is ineffective on a technical level (which is something a client of your hypothetical company might be able to sue for). Rather, it means that it isn't a protection measure in the sense that the DMCA defines it.

      In short, you can still write technically proficient encryption or content protection software under the GPL, but it will not have any legal protection under the DMCA.

    8. Re:No more GPG encryption by miyako · · Score: 1

      I understand what you are saying, and I thought it was implied in my post but perhaps not.
      What I was trying to get at was that- regardless of how technically effective the software is - I wonder if someone will try to use the claim that it is not an "effective protection measure" to either sue a company using the software - or as someone else who replied to my post pointed out, as a marketing tactic to say "Our software is better than open source software- they even claim that it is not effective".

      --
      Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
  16. Problem #1 and #2 by matt4077 · · Score: 1

    It's a) to long and b) a lot more complicated than previous revisions. At least I kind of understood those. Now it's more a political manifesto, forcing everyone who touches the software to become vegeterian etc..

  17. That's the preamble by vlad_petric · · Score: 2, Informative

    *NOT* terms and conditions. This is the style of GNU licenses - preamble describing intent, but not legally binding, then the legally-binding terms .

    --

    The Raven

    1. Re:That's the preamble by Schraegstrichpunkt · · Score: 1

      The preamble may not be directly binding, but I bet a judge can use it in his interpretation of the terms and conditions.

  18. Differences between v3 and v2 by EssenceLumin · · Score: 1

    I was surprised there would be the ability to add clauses to the license. It seems this will make it more difficult for many people or (especially) organizations to accept, if they have to evaluate the legality for their situation of many similar but different licenses.

    I have only read the license through once and have lots of questions to think about. My first impression though is it seems a lot more readable than v2 for which I read "This is legalese what does this mean in English?"

    1. Re:Differences between v3 and v2 by stefie10 · · Score: 1

      I think that these clauses are there to make the new GPL license compatable with other widely used free software licenses. (e.g. the patent retaliation clauses in the Apache License.)

    2. Re:Differences between v3 and v2 by gscrivano · · Score: 1

      It is really nice that apache released code can be used inside GPLv3 applications, this solve a lot of problems and source code can be reused easily.

  19. Nope. by pavon · · Score: 1

    It means that you don't have to release Visual Studio, MFC, and the .Net runtime under the GPL, if you distribute a GPL application that requires those things to run. Unless your code is a compiler or object code intepretor, I don't see why you would think it is excluded.

  20. WHOA! Privacy and freedom all the way! by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 1
    Patents:

    "Distribution of the Corresponding Source in accord with this section
    must be in a format that is publicly documented, unencumbered by
    patents, and must require no special password or key for unpacking,
    reading or copying."


    I like this one, specially the 'unencumbered by patents' part, but I'm not sure if this was already present in GPL v2.

    "This License gives unlimited permission to privately modify and run the
    Program, provided you do not bring suit for patent infringement against
    anyone for making, using or distributing their own works based on the
    Program.

    Propagation of covered works is permitted without limitation provided it
    does not enable parties other than you to make or receive copies.
    Propagation which does enable them to do so is permitted, as
    "distribution", under the conditions of sections 4-6 below."


    DRM:


    "As a free software license, this License intrinsically disfavors
    technical attempts to restrict users' freedom to copy, modify, and share
    copyrighted works. Each of its provisions shall be interpreted in light of
    this specific declaration of the licensor's intent. Regardless of any
    other provision of this License, no permission is given to distribute
    covered works that illegally invade users' privacy, nor for modes of
    distribution that deny users that run covered works the full exercise of
    the legal rights granted by this License."


    The only thing i didn't like was the "illegally invade users' privacy". It's the 'illegally' that concerns me, what if DRM is made legal? I can see a loophole in there. The 'nor for modes of distribution'... does it include 'illegally', too?

    Perhaps they should be more explicit, I'm not sure...
    1. Re:WHOA! Privacy and freedom all the way! by ad0gg · · Score: 1

      Thats if you distribute the GPL code. If you use the code internally to violate people's privacy, you are disributing GPL code and therefore aren't bound to copyright license terms.

      --

      Have you ever been to a turkish prison?

  21. An interesting point... by mustafap · · Score: 1

    Curious that a discussion of the GPL should bring out so many annoymous cowards.

    I wonder why?

    Must do some stats some day on proportion of AC comments verses subject matter.

    Anyone else noticed a correlation?

    --
    Open Source Drum Kit, LPLC deve board - mjhdesigns.com
    1. Re:An interesting point... by John+Whorfin · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Because the GPL is one of the /. sacred cows, like Linux itself. Speaking out against it is like, well, speaking out agaist the American government. You're not with us so you must be a Microsoft shill and the mod point for that are not pretty!

    2. Re:An interesting point... by killjoe · · Score: 1

      So? Why the fear of karma? I mean all you have to do is to post a "linux is great but it's not ready for desktop" or "xp hasn't crashed on me evar!" posts and get them all back.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    3. Re:An interesting point... by maxpublic · · Score: 1

      Religious zealotry. Seriously. The hard-core 'free software' folks are pretty rabid when it comes to smacking down anyone who doesn't chant the party line along with them, and they (like the Billy Boys) don't seem to have a problem ganging up and slamming your karma to 'teach you a lesson'. Unfortunately it seems that a number of slashdotters actually seem to care about their karma scores, so they go AC to preserve their regular accounts.

      For the record I could give two shits about free software. I support open source, but that's simply because I hate the idea of running black boxes on equipment I paid for and own. Paranoia, you know.

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
  22. Does anyone have any screenshots? by stonedyak · · Score: 2, Funny

    I can't wait to try it out! But are there any binaries to download? I can only seem to find the source code, and I don't have a compiler for Lawyer++.

    1. Re:Does anyone have any screenshots? by ClamIAm · · Score: 1

      No matter what language you translate legalese into, it's always BrainFuck.

  23. Web services? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 4, Interesting
    There's been much debate for and against allowing people to "publish" modified GPLed web applications without releasing the source. For example, phpBB is released under the GPL, and some believe that you should be required to make any changes to it available to your site visitors.

    I didn't see any wording in the draft that addresses this issue either way; every time I thought I did, I found the same or similar wording in version 2. So, is it in there? Will it affect how we publish web applications?

    --
    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    1. Re:Web services? by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I didn't see that either. I thought this new "propagate" concept might include it but apparently not.

      To "propagate" a work means doing anything with it that requires
      permission under applicable copyright law, other than executing it on
      a computer or making private modifications.


      Seems concerns about web services have been ignored.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    2. Re:Web services? by stefie10 · · Score: 1

      I think this clause from section 7 is about web applications: "d) They may require that the program contain functioning facilities that allow users to obtain copies of the program's Complete Corresponding Source Code." So if a web application has such functionality, it can be released under a license that requires that functionality be kept, and that license would still be compatible with the GPL.

    3. Re:Web services? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2, Interesting
      So if a web application has such functionality, it can be released under a license that requires that functionality be kept, and that license would still be compatible with the GPL.

      Crud. I think you're right. The FSF seems to have this fascination with "invariant sections", even though the rest of the planet thinks they are fundamentally non-Free.

      If this draft is accepted, it looks like I'll be using GPLv2 (and v2 only) from now on. This whole thing reeks of second-system effect and I'd rather not have anything to do with it.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    4. Re:Web services? by ad0gg · · Score: 1

      User created webservices and webpages that use an GPL application to run don't fall under the scope of copyright law. There's no way a company or anyone can demand copyright compliance for this action. Only way they can get some sort of licensing agreement in here is with a EULA.

      --

      Have you ever been to a turkish prison?

    5. Re:Web services? by miyako · · Score: 1

      I was looking for something like that too. One of the conserns I had heard about the GPL3 was that it might end up causing a situation where a website that used a database that was covered under the GPL3 would be required to provide the source of the database and the application to the users.
      Based on what I've read of this draft (and granted I have a very limited understanding of legalease) it doesn't look like this is the case.

      --
      Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
    6. Re:Web services? by jZnat · · Score: 1

      So, does that mean if you include a method that basically self-checkout's itself from your modified version and allows for download (excluding personal data files I'd assume), you must respect that feature? I don't get how this is supposed to be done; if there's no way to do it, there's no way to enforce it either.

      --
      'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
    7. Re:Web services? by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      If you don't understand the issue please refrain from commenting.

      The issue of web services that some have proposed the GPL v3 address involves the creation of derivative works of GPL applications. This clearly falls under copyright law as, even in the privacy of your own home, you do not have the legal right to modify software for your own use. Hell, you don't even have the legal right to run software in some regions as "copying into memory" is restricted by copyright law.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    8. Re:Web services? by iabervon · · Score: 1

      That is, however, an optional part of the license, so anyone intending to release somethign as Free Software can simply choose not to use it. I believe I've seen that debian legal finally decided that it's okay for the GFDL to support invariant sections, so long as documents debian ships have no such sections. (But other issues with the GFDL are more serious and apply to all documents.) I'd guess that no project team that wants to keep from being kicked out would accept the addition of an invariant section to their project, given that it would require debian to fork their project.

      Of course, if you consider the users of a web service program to be the people running the web service rather than the people using the service provided by those people, then it is fundamentally non-free to put any restriction on what the people running the service can do. (Like writing a compiler that can't be used to compile certain programs would be, or writing a word processor which required the produced documents to be put in the public domain.)

      I'm a bit mystified as to why they didn't have the option be: "If this optional section is included, then the use of the software to provide a service to others is only permitted if the terms of this license for copying, distribution, and modification, as given above, are followed." It seems foolish to protect the mechanism for sending the source code, rather than the right of the service users to get the source code through whatever mechanism is appropriate.

    9. Re:Web services? by NutscrapeSucks · · Score: 1

      Yeah it looks like they stuck an axe in "Section 0" of the old GPL.

      Previously, you had unrestricted rights to run GPL software -- aka "The GPL is not a EULA".

      Now you only have rights to "privately" run the software (whatever that means, since there's no apparently caselaw covering "public performance" of software) -- and the author has the right to stick EULA-equese provisions on code covering how you may use it.

      --
      Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
    10. Re:Web services? by ad0gg · · Score: 1

      You do have every right to modify software for your own use. Your saying I can't flip some bits on my harddrive? Of course I can. I can patch software, do anything i want to it. GPL is copyright license and not EULA. It can only grant rights, default rights to copyright protection is no distribution, there is nothing under copyright law that says I can't modify the art that i legally aquired. EULAs are the only way to prevent people from modifying your software(not counting DMCA and copy protection). Maybe you should understand copyright laws. Just because its the GPL, it still has the exact same rights granted to commercial software under the copyright laws. I like to see Microsoft or Sun claim copyright violations(not EULA) because you're using ASP, JSP, or EJB in your applications, they'd get laughed out of court.

      --

      Have you ever been to a turkish prison?

    11. Re:Web services? by bitmason · · Score: 2, Informative

      I asked Eben Moglen basically this question at the conference today. It isn't GPLv3's intention to treat software delivered as a hosted service as "propagating" or "distributing" the software. (If the service is delivered as a hardware/software bundle, that's something different, but a website hosting a database (or CRM application) isn't considered to be distributing the software.

    12. Re:Web services? by sepluv · · Score: 1
      looks like 7(d) allows authors the option of an added clause like that in the Afferro GPL:
      d) They may require that the program contain functioning facilities that allow users to obtain copies of the program's Complete Corresponding Source Code.

      This may make the GNU GPL v3 compatible with licenses like the Afferro GPL.

      --
      Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
      [This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
    13. Re:Web services? by NutscrapeSucks · · Score: 1

      While you are correct that patching your own software creates a derived work, it would likely be considered Fair Use under most circumstances.

      There's even the Game Genie case where commercial software patches were ruled to be Fair Use.

      --
      Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
    14. Re:Web services? by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      May I also remind you that not everyone lives in the US. We don't all have a fair use doctrine to hide behind :(

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    15. Re:Web services? by _xeno_ · · Score: 2, Informative

      I actually went to the GPLv3 launch, where they went over the license and what the intention of each of the clauses were. (And almost fell asleep, but...)

      In order to make the license more "compatible" with other licenses, they added Section 7. Section 7 is a set of additional restrictions that developers may add to the license to ensure they maintain compatibility with other licenses. Section 7d essentially says that you may, optionally, implement a feature that causes a program to distribute its own source code to the end-user. If you decide to do so, you can add a requirement that the feature not be removed. This is optional - the default GPLv3 doesn't include this.

      If this draft is accepted, it looks like I'll be using GPLv2 (and v2 only) from now on.

      The GPLv3 is still a draft - if you have issues with the license, comment on it! Join the process! The GPLv3 is an open source process (free process?) in and of itself. This is just the first draft, if you have problems with it, get involved and try to get them worked out.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
    16. Re:Web services? by sparkz · · Score: 4, Informative
      I asked Stallman about this back in 2001; his reply is here:
      ME: I modify GPL code - eg a CGI library - to suit my own needs for use on a publicly-available web server. This code is being run, by the general public, on my web server. Should I, in this case, make the code available? Under the GPL, must I?

      RMS: The GPL does not require it. But is not very good for the community when people do this, so I am looking at a way that GPL 3 could require publication in this case.

      The conversation and background of it is all documented at http://steve-parker.org/articles/lego/
      --
      Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
    17. Re:Web services? by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      And USians wonder why the rest of the world hates them.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    18. Re:Web services? by jamienk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Usually the GPL doesn't allow you to mix in code that is MORE restrictive than the GPL. You can mix in code that is LESS restrictive (e.g., code in the public domain, or code under a BSD license). BUT this draft of the GPL version 3 says that there are a few exceptions where you CAN mix in code that has certain enumerated restrictions beyond the GPL. One of these ALLOWED RESTRICTIONS is if a license requires that code has a way for users of that code to "immediately obtain copies of its Complete Corresponding Source Code" (section 7d).

      I imagine that this could apply to web services -- I could release my big PHP app under the GPL license with the added restriction that "if you want to distribute or modify my web app, you have to have some sort of link to the source code, or else you can't modify the part of the program that provides that link." This is allowed now, I can have any reasonable terms in my license that I want (my license is the only thing that lets you distribute or modify my code), but under versions of the GPL prior to 3, my code wouldn't be COMPATABLE with GPL code; you couldn't COMBINE my code with your GPL code.

      If you do release your code under v3 of the GPL, then people can mix your code with my "GPL plus link to source"-licensed code. If you release your code under version 2 only, my code can't be mixed with yours.

      I think this is a good solution to the "problem" of web services. Remember, the problem was that people can take my GPL'ed code, change it, and run it over the Internet and not release their changes back to the community. In some ways this goes against the spirit that the codes' authors may have felt -- they wanted changes to be "fed back" into the community. On the other hand it could be argued that, by adding a new restriction to my code that goes beyond the GPL's core "share back" -- I'm now in effect saying "this program MUST have this functionality" -- I'm limiting a freedom that the GPL wants to protect -- the freedom to modify the code.

      I think section 7d is a brilliant compromise: allow such code to be mixed with GPL'ed code. This keeps the GPL pure, but opens the door to code that isn't philosophically objectionable.

    19. Re:Web services? by mysidia · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It also potentially opens the door a little wider towarsd OSS license proliferation. At this rate: I fear there will ultimately be just as many OSS licenses as major OSS software projects.

    20. Re:Web services? by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      Actually, USians is Canadian slang, can you guess why?

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    21. Re:Web services? by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Oh boy. Will this ultimately mean you're required to distribute CDs with KPresent, KDE, and Linux source code to everyone in the room, if you just happen to use those software programs to display a slideshow during a presentation or speech, and artistic elements of those programs can be seen on the screen, or if you happen to show a screenshot of a GPL'ed web application that has the special requirements allowed under section (7) you must deliver Web Browser source code and enable observers to get the source to the Web application you were showing off, too?

    22. Re:Web services? by heinousjay · · Score: 1

      Because Canadians are pseudo-clever American wannabes?

      That's probably not it.

      --
      Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
    23. Re:Web services? by white_owl · · Score: 1
      It looks like this is an optional addition. In the Rationale Document subsection on License Compatibility it states:
      Under subsection 7d, the added part may require the program to contain functioning facilities that allow users to obtain copies of the program's Complete Corresponding Source Code. This is intended to enable compatibility with licensing terms that, for example, require modified versions of a program that interacts with users through a network to preserve an opportunity for users to request network transmission of the source code.
    24. Re:Web services? by sco08y · · Score: 1

      Actually, USians is Canadian slang, can you guess why?

      Oh, please. Everyone knows that "Canadia" doesn't exist. It's far too cold up there for any intelligent life to survive.

    25. Re:Web services? by bnenning · · Score: 1
      Now you only have rights to "privately" run the software (whatever that means, since there's no apparently caselaw covering "public performance" of software) -- and the author has the right to stick EULA-equese provisions on code covering how you may use it.

      See the "Not a Contract" section:
      You are not required to accept this License in order to receive a copy of
      the Program. However, nothing else grants you permission to propagate or
      modify the Program or any covered works. These actions infringe copyright
      if you do not accept this License. Therefore, by modifying or propagating
      the Program (or any covered work), you indicate your acceptance of this
      License to do so, and all its terms and conditions.

      I don't think the second sentence is entirely correct, since private modifications could fall under fair use. But it appears that the GPL still doesn't claim to remove any of your existing rights under copyright law.
      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    26. Re:Web services? by Pofy · · Score: 1

      >Go ask any lawyer whether you are legally allowed to patch software you
      >are not the copyright owner of and they will tell you it is creating a
      >derivative work which is not permitted by copyright law.

      The reply you will get will probably vary greatly with what country you live in. For example in Sweden, you are specifically allowed to correct errors or bugs in the program or create ineroperability. in addition, the derivative work works a bit differently. When creating a derivative work (and just changing a few bits does not create a derivative work of course) you actually get the copyright to it (and can't be prevented by the original copyright holder to do it). The restriction on your work are still the same as on the original one though, so you can't distribute it for example if you can't distribute the original, but if you only use it for yourself, that is perfectly OK.

      Just a few examples on how you are wrong.

    27. Re:Web services? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1
      But is not very good for the community when people do this, so I am looking at a way that GPL 3 could require publication in this case.

      Great. Just great. So now we might end up with 2^(number of clauses) derivatives of the GPL itself?

      I hereby propose that all GPL applications be released under GPLv3_$number, where $number is equivalent to treating the list of acceptable restrictive clauses as a bitfield. Want to know if you can link to a library? Examine its "damage bits" to see if they're compatible with your current license. If not, then consider ORing its bits with yours and re-releasing your project under the newly-resulting GPLv3_$number2 to make it all legal.

      Of course, this means that after about two generations of software development, every single minor application and library in existence will come to possess every damage bit out of necessity. Microsoft will be flouting their Shared Source license as a Free alternative to the "proprietary GPL". Pigs will fly. Monkeys will pen Shakespeare.

      Man, I'm usually an RMS fanboy, but this just sucks.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    28. Re:Web services? by jamienk · · Score: 1

      I think the idea is NOT that when you run my PHP code on your web server over the Internet it counts as "propigating" or "distributing" that app. Clearly it doesn't -- all the people who go to your web page see is the OUTPUT of my code. My code is NOT copied into their ram or anything like that.

      The idea is that I could have in my PHP code a link to the source of my code, allowing all users of your website to get my PHP code. Under the GPL, you could modify my code and remove the link to the source. But I could add a restiction to my code's GPL license that says "If you want to modify my copyrighted code, you CANNOT modify the part that provides a link to the source code; or IF YOU DO modify that part, then you have to provide a link somewhere to the source code of my app."

      This new license ("GPL + link" let's call it) is allowed right now. I can license my code in whatever reasonable way I want. BUT prior to the GPL v3, this code would not be COMPATABLE with GPL'ed code. Now, with version 3, my code would be compatable, you'd be able to mix my GPL + link code with other pure GPL'ed code.

    29. Re:Web services? by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      These are all parts of copyright law. Modifying a copyrighted work is an action that falls under copyright law. The fact that your government's copyright law says you are allowed to do it and my government's copyright law says you are not allowed to do it in no way negates the fact that the action is regulated under copyright law... which is what the person I was arguing with was claiming was not the case. Back in your box.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    30. Re:Web services? by Henri+Poole · · Score: 1

      Web services are not covered directly in the license, but are now made compatible through subsection 7d. If this draft is adopted, the AGPL will be compatible with the GPL, and those authors who wish derivatives to remain free will be able to secure that freedom through the use of other licenses like the AGPL (which has been endorsed by the FSF).

      Under subsection 7d, the added part may require the program to contain functioning facilities that allow users to obtain copies of the program's Complete Corresponding Source Code. This is intended to enable compatibility with licensing terms that, for example, require modified versions of a program that interacts with users through a network to preserve an opportunity for users to request network transmission of the source code.

    31. Re:Web services? by Pofy · · Score: 1

      >These are all parts of copyright law.

      Of course, I have never claimed anything else.

      >Modifying a copyrighted work is an action that falls under copyright law.
      >The fact that your government's copyright law says you are allowed to do it
      >and my government's copyright law says you are not allowed to do it in no
      >way negates the fact that the action is regulated under copyright law...

      Again, I have not argued it is not covered by the law. Please, at least read the post you reply to.

      >which is what the person I was arguing with was claiming was not the case.
      >Back in your box.

      I was replying to what YOU wrote, if I wanted to comment on his post, I would have replied to that one instead. YOU stated that:

      "Go ask any lawyer whether you are legally allowed to patch software you are not the copyright owner of and they will tell you it is creating a derivative work which is not permitted by copyright law. "

      I simply pointed out that this is not true and that it depend on the country and that in some countries it IS permited by copyright law, while you claimed it is not.

    32. Re:Web services? by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      No. This is a thread of conversation. If you can't even be bothered to read the entire thread, don't comment.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    33. Re:Web services? by Pofy · · Score: 1

      >No. This is a thread of conversation. If you can't even be bothered to read the entire thread, don't
      >comment.

      I have read it, I just commented on YOUR erroneous reply/statement in the thread. That's it. YOU said something that was wrong and I pointed it out, it really doesn't matter what earlier posters said since your reply was wrong no matter how you look at it.

    34. Re:Web services? by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it's called nitpicking and it contributes nothing to the conversation.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    35. Re:Web services? by Pofy · · Score: 1

      >Yeah, it's called nitpicking and it contributes nothing to the conversation.

      Nitpicking to correct an obvious erroneous statement? In such a case, there can't be a conversation to start with since one can't post anything without you calling it nitpicking.

    36. Re:Web services? by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      Yes, correcting other people without contributing anything new is nitpicking. It's one of the primary reasons why people hate geeks.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    37. Re:Web services? by Pofy · · Score: 1

      >Yes, correcting other people without contributing anything new is nitpicking.

      So, do you feel it is better to NOT correct people that tell false and erroneous things? After all, THEY contribute eve less although might appear for all those who believes in the erroneous statement.

  24. Re:Making your own, modified GPL by daverabbitz · · Score: 1

    >Shouldn't there be a possibility to make changes to the GPL and release your software under your own, derivative license? (Scary, I >know, but someone might want to do it.) They seem to forbid it as it is now.

    I was under the impression that you could make derivatives, you just couldn't then go and call it the GPL, you had to call it something else. I could be entirely wrong though.

    --
    What could be better than a jet powered motorcycle? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8l6GTHLSWE
  25. groklaw version better by Mateo_LeFou · · Score: 1
    --
    My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
  26. What valid legalese is... by John+Whorfin · · Score: 1

    Valid legalese is money. My lawyer can beat up your lawyer.

    All those words do exactly the opposite of what you think they do, each one is another "attack vector," if you will, for a well paid lawyer.

    This license may very well "attempt to uphold the traditions of the FSF" but will ultimatly bring them down over an arguement along the lines of "depends on what the definition of 'is' is."

    The BSD and MIT licenses, while accomplishing something very different, are short and non-ambiguous and therefore (more) defensible.

    1. Re:What valid legalese is... by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      Actually, its the opposite. Plain english is ambiguous. Legalese generally has very specific meanings for different terms. You may not know those meanings, but a lwayer and judge will. Using legalese helps assure it is interpreted the correct way, whereas plain english may get it in trouble.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
  27. Re:great; now GPL software is prohibited on Window by Bogtha · · Score: 1

    Did you read the rest of the license, or just stop halfway through? There's an exception for libraries that come as standard with the OS or development environment. What you say is not true at all.

    --
    Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
  28. Re:great; now GPL software is prohibited on Window by AuMatar · · Score: 1

    " As a special exception, the Complete Corresponding Source Code need not include a particular subunit if (a) the identical subunit is normally included as an adjunct in the distribution of either a major essential component (kernel, window system, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs or a compiler used to produce the executable or an object code interpreter used to run it, and (b) the subunit (aside from possible incidental extensions) serves only to enable use of the work with that system component or compiler or interpreter, or to implement a widely used or standard interface, the implementation of which requires no patent license not already generally available for software under this License."

    THis is the clause that avoids that problem, specificly subclause a. As major essential components of the OS, they do not have to include code (unless the work you are distributing is an OS, such as the Linux kernel).

    --
    I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
  29. NOW it's political?!? by Mateo_LeFou · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Did you see any earlier versions of this thing? btw political is good.

    --
    My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
  30. Relicense? by Julian+Morrison · · Score: 2, Interesting

    One question for OSS projects currently using GPL, will be, should they relicense?

    For example, should Linux become GPL3'd?

    Discuss...

    1. Re:Relicense? by DreadSpoon · · Score: 1

      Given that the GPLv2 explitly states that any later version of the GPL may be applied instead of v2, *most* GPL projects will automatically be under the GPLv3.

    2. Re:Relicense? by HellYeahAutomaton · · Score: 1

      No, but you will need to recompile another 30k license file into all your applications, call it a "patch", and notify CERT.

    3. Re:Relicense? by Bogtha · · Score: 4, Informative

      One question for OSS projects currently using GPL, will be, should they relicense?

      Most GPLed software already gives you the option of choosing to use a later version of the GPL, so no relicensing needs to happen.

      For example, should Linux become GPL3'd?

      Linux is a special case. It's explicitly GPL version 2 only, and most of the code has been submitted with that understanding. If Linus wanted to switch to this new version, he'd have to get permission from everybody who's got code in Linux.

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    4. Re:Relicense? by typical · · Score: 1

      Someone owns that copyright, and you can get it from them.

      But I agree -- Linux is likely to remain GPLv2 for the foreseeable future.

      --
      Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
    5. Re:Relicense? by typical · · Score: 1

      One question for OSS projects currently using GPL, will be, should they relicense?

      And if so, how will people know?

      Freshmeat and RPMs and so forth only contain the text "GPL", not "GPLv2" or "GPLv3". Or, in the case of Linux, "GPLv2 only". (Actually, I lied -- apparently the Fedora RPMs have "GPLv2" for Linux, which is outright wrong -- GPLv2 is different from "GPLv2 only".)

      There are probably in the tens of thousands of projects out there under the GPL. Their maintainers all have to consider the rammifications of the licence and figure out whether to move or not (and if they don't, have to avoid merging code from any projects that *have* relicensed). That's not a small amount of work -- it's an awful lot of time of that limited volunteer time being eaten up. And it's more not-fun-legal-crap that people have to deal with instead of making-cool-stuff.

      I hope that the changes in the GPLv3 are *really* worthwhile, because the FSF is imposing a severe cost on the open source world by releasing a modification.

      --
      Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
    6. Re:Relicense? by msormune · · Score: 1

      Switching to GPLv3 would mark the death of any commercial possibilitites for Linux.

  31. read Karl Popper by criscooil · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This reminds me of something similar which has been explored in depth by Karl Popper, namely the problem of how does a free society protect itself from people who would use that freedom to change the society so that its no longer free. For example how does a democracy prevent a party from getting elected which would end the democracy? I cant give you a 25c summary, because it is a complicated subject, and I cant remember all of it anyway (its been years). However, if you're interested, I highly recommend reading Popper. His stuff is easy to read, and he deserves to be more widely known.

    --

    My life is an open book ... up to a point.

    1. Re:read Karl Popper by ClamIAm · · Score: 1
      I highly recommend reading Popper. His stuff is easy to read, and he deserves to be more widely known.

      Bryan Magee (who is kind of the Carl Sagan of philosophy) said in his book "Confessions of a Philosopher" that he believes Popper will eventually be considered one of the most influential philosophers of the 20th century. He actually knew Popper (I think), so this may make his statement more accurate. Or less, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

    2. Re:read Karl Popper by lubricated · · Score: 1

      >> For example how does a democracy prevent a party from getting elected which would end the democracy?

      well, in the us which is a republic the 2nd amendment is what ensures it.

      --
      It has been statistically shown that helmets increase the risk of head injury.
    3. Re:read Karl Popper by 808140 · · Score: 1

      While I agree with the spirit of your comment, I think you missed the GP's point. In the case of the US, you have a population that believes in the preservation of democracy, and so if someone hijacked the democratic process and declared himself dictator for life, there would be revolt -- revolt facilitated by an armed populace, thanks to the 2nd amendment.

      However, the situation that (I believe) the GP is refering to is more subtle. It's like that line in "The Quiet American" (have you seen it? great movie) in which a wide eyed bushy tailed american (Brendan Frasier, amazingly not annoying in this movie) is waxing lyrical to a world weary british journalist in Saigon about bringing democracy to Vietnam, and the journalist (played extremely well by Michael Caine) says something like, "It's not that simple: you guarantee democracy for these people, and they'll elect Ho Chi Minh."

      Similarly, Iraq. The merits of invading the nation aside, we have a real situation on our hands now: if we guarantee fair elections for Iraqis, will they elect a leadership that will preserve the values of the democratic process and of individual freedom and expression, or will they elect a leadership that turns the previously secular Iraq into a newer version of islamofacist Iran?

      When the population cares about freedom, preserving freedom isn't difficult, because true authority comes from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcicle aquatic ceremony. If enough of the people disagree with the leadership's position, there will be revolt -- if it comes to that, problem solved.

      But what if the people don't value freedom, or want to give it up, and be slaves? It seems like a stupid question, but lots of people who have never known freedom (that's most of the world, unfortunately) don't know its value, and they will not stand up to defend it because they've never had it.

      So is it ethical, in this case, to restrict their freedom to restrict their own freedom? Or is that nanny statism? It's a bit of a quandry, really...

    4. Re:read Karl Popper by tehdaemon · · Score: 1
      Minor correction to above - you said "but lots of people who have never known freedom ... will not stand up to defend it because they've never had it."

      While that is true for some people, I believe that the more common reason is that people are scared of more freedom than they have had before. It is really nothing more than fear of the unknown, anywhere from 'who will take care of ______ when ________ happens?' to 'how will we keep people from doing ________?' This is the reason that so many people want to give up freedom, they are scared of it.

      --
      Laws are horrible moral guides, moral guides make even worse laws.
    5. Re:read Karl Popper by Brooklynmeister · · Score: 1

      Hi; you ask: "So is it ethical, in this case, to restrict their freedom to restrict their own freedom? Or is that nanny statism? It's a bit of a quandry, really." Its a very good question. So good, in fact, that we wrote a paper on it :). Here is a link. We'd love to get comments from folks. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html#Thir dPartyIdeas (Its the last paper on that list - titled "A Comparative Ethical Assessment of Free Software Licensing Schemes") We consider precisely the question you ask above, comparing the GPL to BSD/MIT style licenses.

  32. "Propagation" by benjamindees · · Score: 1

    Some vagueness here, based on "applicable copyright law":

    To "propagate" a work means doing anything with it that requires
    permission under applicable copyright law, other than executing it on
    a computer or making private modifications. This includes copying,
    distribution (with or without modification), sublicensing, and in some
    countries other activities as well.


    And there's other disclaimers about "private" this and that:

    This License gives unlimited permission to privately modify and run the
    Program, provided you do not bring suit for patent infringement against
    anyone for making, using or distributing their own works based on the Program.


    But, finally, does this give specific permission for web services?

    Propagation of covered works is permitted without limitation provided it
    does not enable parties other than you to make or receive copies.
    Propagation which does enable them to do so is permitted, as
    "distribution", under the conditions of sections 4-6 below.

    --
    "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
  33. Re:great; now GPL software is prohibited on Window by QuantumG · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Except, ya know, that the license then goes on to say

    As a special exception, the Complete Corresponding Source Code need
    not include a particular subunit if (a) the identical subunit is
    normally included as an adjunct in the distribution of either a major
    essential component (kernel, window system, and so on) of the
    operating system on which the executable runs or a compiler used to
    produce the executable or an object code interpreter used to run it,
    and (b) the subunit (aside from possible incidental extensions) serves
    only to enable use of the work with that system component or compiler
    or interpreter, or to implement a widely used or standard interface,
    the implementation of which requires no patent license not already
    generally available for software under this License.

    --
    How we know is more important than what we know.
  34. The ISSUES are incomprehensible by jgardn · · Score: 3, Informative

    I'd like to point out that in a more perfect world, we wouldn't need the GPL v3. What has happened is that the world has become tremendously more complicated since v2. The v3 helps to address some of those issues.

    Let's look at some of the issues that make licensing your software more difficult to do properly.

    PATENTS. Software patents have gotten out of control. At the time of v2, there was some concern about patents, but now we have had a direct attack on the GPL from the angle of patents trump copyright. What v3 does is spell out what patents mean and how companies can use patents and GPL in peace. It says that you can't distribute software under the GPL if you own a patent that doesn't allow others to distribute the same software. You have to license that patent to allow distribution by others. Isn't this what we want? This is one technical and hairy issue that most people never think about, but needs to be thought about.

    DRM. The DRM issue is another viper's nest. What happens if Sony releases software under the GPL to play movies, and then try to protect the movies under DRM legislation? Think especially if Sony takes a GPL software out in the wild, and then adds their own things to it, and then to satisfy the GPL they try to distribute it under the GPL. Are they doing the right thing, even if it is legal? Of course not. If you build or work on a data interpretation program and then license it under the GPL, you can't ask people not to try to understand how your program works or write another program to deal with the same software. The v3 license is explicit about this.

    BSD license folks like to pick on the GPL because it is getting so complicated. They forget that the BSD license has its own problems. The GPL is trying to solve those problems. If you don't understand what the problems with the BSD license are, you can't understand what the GPL is intended to do, nor can you be convinced to use it.

    Hint about BSD's problems: MS Windows has a good portion of BSD code in the Windows kernel. They spend a great deal of time modifying and adapting the code and then turning around and selling it, without allowing people the same rights they had. I have a co-worker whose job was to work with this code. The folks who wrote the original code get NOTHING in return, except a by-line in the Windows documentation.

    Imagine if I took the Linux Kernel, made it better, then turned around and started selling it for profit, without allowing people to see the changes, nor giving them an opportunity to do the same. The GPL forbids this, and it has been a perfect solution up 'til now. The FSF is trying to predict future "attack vectors" and closing them off before they can become a problem, perhaps through future legislation or actions.

    --
    The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
    1. Re:The ISSUES are incomprehensible by ivoras · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Oh not again about the "BSD is bad because MS can steal BSD-licensed code" :((

      Here it is again: THAT'S PRECISELY THE POINT! Don't you think people who put their code under the BSD license know it?

      The license is liberal because:

      • maybe the software is made on an academic institution and it wouldn't be fair to restrict it (as the GPL does)
      • maybe the author writes the software for fame not for fortune (mostly closely tied with previous point - academics tend to make software that will increase their academic status [hint: BSD unix] and maybe land them consultant jobs)
      • maybe the author is a really good guy
      • maybe the author is really optimistic and thinks that if the companies can use quality BSD-licensed code they wouldn't have to develop their own crappy versions (hint: MS)
      • ...
      --
      -- Sig down
    2. Re:The ISSUES are incomprehensible by undeadly · · Score: 1
      BSD license folks like to pick on the GPL because it is getting so complicated. They forget that the BSD license has its own problems.

      What, like a license that is understandable and free?

      If you don't understand what the problems with the BSD license are, you can't understand what the GPL is intended to do, nor can you be convinced to use it.

      Gee, you didn't even bother to say what those supposed problems are. Please educate me.

      Hint about BSD's problems: MS Windows has a good portion of BSD code in the Windows kernel. They spend a great deal of time modifying and adapting the code and then turning around and selling it, without allowing people the same rights they had.

      The license allows this: Free for any purpose. It's intended to be like that, it's not a problem. If even simple licenses like the BSD/MIT/ICS license confuse you, what do you think about GPL complexity?

      Imagine if I took the Linux Kernel, made it better, then turned around and started selling it for profit, without allowing people to see the changes, nor giving them an opportunity to do the same.

      That is against the license the Linux kernel use.

      The GPL forbids this, and it has been a perfect solution up 'til now.

      Exactly, the GPL forbids it, but it's hardly perfect by any standard. But then again, BSD/MIT/ISC is not GPL, got that?

    3. Re:The ISSUES are incomprehensible by NutscrapeSucks · · Score: 1

      The license is liberal because:

      The original reasoning was that the government was financing research software that may be useful to local industry.

      The taxpayers of California spent a few peanuts on the development of BSD, which lead to the founding of Sun Microsystems and Cisco Systems in the area, which lead to thousands of high-paying jobs that otherwise would have gone Massachusetts or New York.

      --
      Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
    4. Re:The ISSUES are incomprehensible by ivoras · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up :)

      --
      -- Sig down
    5. Re:The ISSUES are incomprehensible by ZephyrXero · · Score: 1

      # maybe the software is made on an academic institution and it wouldn't be fair to restrict it (as the GPL does)

      Why wouldn't it be fair? If any companies wanted to use the code in a closed soure/proprietary application they could always pay the "academic institution" for a license to do so...

      # maybe the author writes the software for fame not for fortune (mostly closely tied with previous point - academics tend to make software that will increase their academic status [hint: BSD unix] and maybe land them consultant jobs)

      The GPL has nothing to do with fortune...lol. It's about making the software valuable to it's users and contributors by giving them freedom, not money. If they want money they can grab one of those "consultant jobs" you reffered too ;)

      # maybe the author is a really good guy

      And releasing his code under the GPL makes him not?

      # maybe the author is really optimistic and thinks that if the companies can use quality BSD-licensed code they wouldn't have to develop their own crappy versions (hint: MS)

      This is the same reason we also have the LGPL

      --
      "A truly wise man realizes he knows nothing."
    6. Re:The ISSUES are incomprehensible by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      It's about making the software valuable to it's users and contributors by giving them freedom

      If you use very limited definitions of the words "value", "user", and "freedom", this is a perfectly valid statement. Otherwise, not so much.

    7. Re:The ISSUES are incomprehensible by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      MS Windows has a good portion of BSD code in the Windows kernel. I know it has some of the TCP/IP stuff, but what else? Also, if that is the case, has such inclusion made Microsoft Windows any better?

  35. Re:Making your own, modified GPL by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 1

    yes, you are entirely wrong. You can certainly derive from the /spirit/, but the text itself is copyrighted (presumably to avoid requiring users re-read the full text every time they download something new, scanning for changes)

    --
    -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
  36. Very good, albeit unnecessarily cryptic in parts. by delire · · Score: 1
    No covered work constitutes part of an effective technological protection measure: that is to say, distribution of a covered work as part of a system to generate or access certain data constitutes general permission at least for development, distribution and use, under this License, of other software capable of accessing the same data.
    This is not a clause you want misunderstood.

    I would say "of other software capable of accessing the same data" needs expansion and or definition in a footer or otherwise. What is this "other software" you're talking about? External, third-party, binary software perhaps?

    The sentence itself, while parted with a colon, also feels grammatically unweildy. Should the "of" in "of other software [...]" not be "for"?
  37. Explain? by p3d0 · · Score: 1

    This is so totally fallacious that I'm not sure even how to refute it.

    --
    Patrick Doyle
    I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
    1. Re:Explain? by Some+Random+Username · · Score: 1

      What is there to explain? The GPL has always excluded people. It used to only exclude people who want to distribute their code under a license of their choosing. Now it excludes more people that RMS disagrees with. This is the slippery slope where he gradually excludes more and more people, trying to exert more and more control over software developers and users.

    2. Re:Explain? by p3d0 · · Score: 1
      You know the GPL (v2 anyway) doesn't disallow anyone from using a piece of software, right?

      I guess what I'd like explained is this:

      "Freedom for users" was already redefined to mean "freedom for users, except for ones we don't like".
      What exactly is the freedom that is granted to users they like, and withheld from users they don't like?
      --
      Patrick Doyle
      I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
    3. Re:Explain? by Some+Random+Username · · Score: 1

      "You know the GPL (v2 anyway) doesn't disallow anyone from using a piece of software, right?"

      Uh huh, did you read my post:

      "It used to only exclude people who want to distribute their code under a license of their choosing."

      Notice the word distribute.

      "What exactly is the freedom that is granted to users they like, and withheld from users they don't like?"

      The freedom to link to their code and distribute it is granted to users who are willing to license their code under the GPL too. This freedom is not granted to users who wish to license their code under other licenses.

    4. Re:Explain? by p3d0 · · Score: 1
      My appologies for missing the word "distribute".

      As for the freedom aspect, your wording seems disingenuous to me. It's a little bit like saying that shopkeepers are biased against "people they don't like" because they only allow you to enter the shop if you agree not to rob them. The GPL is trying (for better or worse) to maximize freedom by granting users almost unlimited freedom up to the point that they start to try to limit the freedom of others. It has nothing to do with who they "like".

      Anyway thanks for clarifying your position.

      --
      Patrick Doyle
      I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
    5. Re:Explain? by Some+Random+Username · · Score: 1

      "The GPL is trying (for better or worse) to maximize freedom by granting users almost unlimited freedom up to the point that they start to try to limit the freedom of others."

      No, that's the rhetoric they want you to believe. The GPL is only good for people who are also willing to tow the GNU/commie line, it doesn't help anyone else. So clearly it has always been only for certain people. Now they are simply narrowing down the "certain people" a little more. Not suprising at all.

      The GPL locks out people who use equally free licenses simply because they are not the GPL. Its not about freedom, its about control. RMS wants to live in his perfect communist utopia where everything is under HIS IDEA of freedom. Not someone else's idea of free, not actual freedom kinda free, but GNU/free. I work on an open source project that is locked out by the GPL, because RMS doesn't like us since we aren't pushing his GPL agenda. This is not altruistic "my code is free to help the world", this is "my code is free to spread my agenda". That's fine if you admit it, but its wrong to pretend the GPL is altrustic when it isn't.

      Your analogy is very flawed btw, as stores don't actually do that. You don't know if someone is going to rob you in advance. Robbers are breaking the law, and so the police arrest them, the shopkeeper isn't involved. Maximizing freedom is simple: public domain. Everything else is restricting my freedom. Restricting my freedom to try to meet your goals is just pushing an agenda. Wether or not you, or anyone else thinks your goals are altruistic doesn't matter, its restricting freedom plain and simple. You can certainly go ahead and do that, and so can RMS and his followers. But pretending that your agenda is freedom, and actual freedom is bad is just dishonest.

    6. Re:Explain? by p3d0 · · Score: 1
      Public domain is anarchy. Anyone can do anything with public domain software, including distributing a changed version under a license that deprives people of the freedom to manipulate the source code. PD is the utmost in short-term freedom, but not in the long term.

      Also, remember it's possible for people to disagree with you without being dishonest. Perhaps they are merely mistaken.

      --
      Patrick Doyle
      I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
    7. Re:Explain? by Some+Random+Username · · Score: 1

      Yes, anyone can do anything with public domain software, this is the very definition of freedom. Distributing a changed version under a restrictive license does not deprive people of the original. It is long term freedom, it will always be public domain, and anyone can always do whatever they want with it, forever. The question is wether you want freedom, or you want to impose restrictions in order to further those same restrictions onto other software. I never said the latter is wrong, just that it is not freedom. The best intentioned restrictions are still restrictions.

      And certainly disagreeing doesn't make anyone dishonest, its lying that makes people dishonest. Saying "this software is FREE as in FREEDOM" when referring to software that comes under a long and restrictive pile of legalese is dishonest. I don't want RMS to stop pushing the GPL, I just want him to stop trying to redefine the word freedom, that's all. If he can insist that people call linux GNU/Linux, then I can insist that he call the GPL's "freedom" GNU/Freedom ;)

    8. Re:Explain? by p3d0 · · Score: 1
      Software needs constant maintenance if it is to remain useful. Having the freedom to use old copies of software isn't useful for very long. Would you be satisfied if every version of gcc after 2.0 were closed-source?

      Putting gcc under the GPL is what has given you the freedom to see the source code to the very latest version.

      --
      Patrick Doyle
      I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
    9. Re:Explain? by Some+Random+Username · · Score: 1

      But that wouldn't happen. Take apache for instance, several companies have made closed source forks of it. And yet somehow apache has gone on to be better than them, and outlive them. This "evil companies will make it closed" story is a common piece of FUD, even though there's tons of software under BSD/MIT/ISC licenses that proves it wrong.

      Major open source projects get more people working on them than commercial projects, so the open source versions will naturally be better than closed source forks. And minor open source projects don't matter enough for anyone to bother trying to make closed forks of.

    10. Re:Explain? by p3d0 · · Score: 1
      Those are some good points. Food for thought.

      I wonder if the open source projects you mention would be where they are if they were public domain? Following your earlier logic, PD would be even better than BSD wouldn't it?

      --
      Patrick Doyle
      I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
    11. Re:Explain? by Some+Random+Username · · Score: 1

      "I wonder if the open source projects you mention would be where they are if they were public domain?"

      I'd assume so. ISC and minimalist BSD style licenses (not ugly old 3 or 4 clause ones) basically give you everything public domain would, except that you have to keep the copyright statement/warrenty disclaimer comment in the files. The only reason to use a license like this is getting credit for your work. You could argue that its just vanity. Given that, I can't see how it would make any difference to the success of the project.

      "Following your earlier logic, PD would be even better than BSD wouldn't it?"

      No, I am not making statements like "better". Public domain is free, and BSD is not, yes. ISC type licenses are probably the least restrictive licensing you can have, but it is still imposing restriction.

      Quality is a whole other matter. Personally, I use an ISC type license because I want to keep my copyright notice on the code, so everyone knows how awesome I am ;) But for small trivial stuff I make it public domain. And if I wrote something that I thought I could get money for from selling it to companies, then I would GPL it so they would have to buy a non-GPL licensed copy from me. Which option is better? It depends on your needs/desires. But the public domain option is the only one that actually results in freedom.

  38. take a typography class by John+Nowak · · Score: 1

    The longer the lines of text are, the more space you need inbetween each line in order to maintain the same level of readability. Long lines make it difficult to find the next line when you finish a line unless there is a good deal of space inbetween. This is the same reason newspapers break up text into columns. Imagine a newspaper with 18" long lines.

    1. Re:take a typography class by ubernostrum · · Score: 1

      The longer the lines of text are, the more space you need inbetween each line in order to maintain the same level of readability. Long lines make it difficult to find the next line when you finish a line unless there is a good deal of space inbetween. This is the same reason newspapers break up text into columns. Imagine a newspaper with 18" long lines.

      But, at the same time, 80-character width is far below the line length which would be optimal for this particular use of the text. And, in combination with the word wrapping performed by web browsers, causes line breaks to appear in unexpected places and results in overly ragged edges, which do just as much to limit readability as overly long lines of text.

      The best choice for displaying this text would have been a fluid-width column with a sensible maximum line length specified in ems (something that's easy to do) and no hard line breaks inserted into the license text -- that way, the text would have wrapped naturally at line lengths which facilitate easy reading.

  39. And where have you been for 20 years? by jbn-o · · Score: 1

    It apparently means proprietary software distributors, those who seek to lock up software and make Free Software unavailable to others by DRM and an unshared key, and the like. In short, the people who the Free Software movement hasn't liked for the past 20 years.

    The alternative of absolute freedom to do anything one wants all too quickly becomes a power to distribute proprietary derivatives, and thus becomes unsavory for preserving software freedom; just as it has been for the past 20 years too.

    One cannot have all possible freedoms. As the FSF has reminded us many times, my freedom to walk down the street in safety conflicts with your freedom to drive anywhere you want. There are times when one must choose which freedoms to secure and which freedoms to trade away.

    You hint at unspecified malevolence suggesting that you're actually casting FUD instead of providing analysis of the new GPL or what the Free Software movement has been talking about for two decades now.

  40. Opinion vs Ideology by themusicgod1 · · Score: 1

    You weren't very specific as far as what the difference is between opinion and ideology.

    So far what I can tell, is that you're saying an opinion is something you think that you will do, whereas an ideology is something you think others should do. Is this correct? Define your terms, as you made little sense.

    --
    GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
  41. Unified diff of the changes by Jeedo · · Score: 1

    I've made a unified diff of the differences between the GPLv2 and GPLv3-draft, enjoy!

  42. Looks like an ultimatum to lawmakers by dtfinch · · Score: 1

    12. Liberty or Death for the Program.

    If conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or
    otherwise) that contradict the conditions of this License, they do not
    excuse you from the conditions of this License. If you cannot distribute
    the Program, or other covered work, so as to satisfy simultaneously your
    obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as
    a consequence you may not distribute it at all. For example, if a patent
    license would not permit royalty-free redistribution by all those who
    receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you
    could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from
    distribution. ...

    I guess all this means is that if lawmakers want to void or weaken part of the GPL, they'll have to void this part as well.

    1. Re:Looks like an ultimatum to lawmakers by sepluv · · Score: 1
      BTW, this section looks like it hasn't changed since v2. I like the way they say "death" now in the title though as if the GPL is alive. :-) (N.B.: if it alive it cannot be a virus because viruses aren't living things.)
      I guess all this means is that if lawmakers want to void or weaken part of the GPL, they'll have to void this part as well.
      Well, yes, if lawmakers were crazy enough to specifically want to go after the GPL they could legislate that (though I'd imagine the judiciary would poor scorn on any such law).

      However, this clause is more aimed at jurisdictions that have laws that allow other things (e.g.: patents) to override copyright licenses in specific limited circumstances (unless the license says otherwise) This is something like the "if part of this contract is declared void, the rest stands" clause.

      --
      Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
      [This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
  43. Read it with the Rationale Document! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    The FSF have provided a document explaining the rationale behind the changes in each section of the license.

    Before blindly criticizing the wording of a certain section, I suggest reading the rationale behind the changes.

    - Does the text in the License do what they intended it to do?
    - Do you agree or disagree with what they intended?
    - Are the possibly-bad side effects of the text which aren't mentioned in the rationale?

  44. Use V2 by nuggz · · Score: 1

    I don't think I like it, it has a few clauses that are ambiguous and could be used in a way I don't agree with.

    Good thing one can still use the v2 only.

    1. Re:Use V2 by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      It's also overcomplex and (in places) ambiguous. I fear good lawyer would rip it to pieces.

    2. Re:Use V2 by sepluv · · Score: 1
      it has a few clauses that are ambiguous
      In case you didn't notice this is not GPLv3; it is the first draft. We will be "us[ing] v2" for some time to come.

      Why dont you go to the comments page, highlight the ambiguous bits or bits you don't like, press c, and explain this (possibly giving better/clearer wording).

      --
      Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
      [This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
    3. Re:Use V2 by ctid · · Score: 1
      It's also overcomplex and (in places) ambiguous. I fear good lawyer would rip it to pieces.

      You do realise that the GPL is being written by lawyers, don't you?
      --
      Reality is defined by the maddest person in the room
    4. Re:Use V2 by nuggz · · Score: 1

      I won't be filing corrections because I think the current GPL v2 is good.

      The GPL v3 draft adds stuff of little/no value, the only improvement I see to the draft is to throw it out and replace it with the current v2.
      I'm likely part of a whiney minority of old farts who don't like change, so I'll shut up, use v2 and let the change = progress crowd play silly games.

      Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to remove.

      or KISS

  45. The R in DRM? by bzipitidoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    GPLv3 is calling DRM Digital Restrictions Management. A good description, but isn't the term actually Digital Rights Management? Ought to state both terms. Would hate to lose a court case on a technicality based on imprecise terminology. I thought renaming it Restrictions was a clever joke, and we don't want the GPL to look like a joke. Gives opponents a wedge they can use to try to discredit the whole thing.

    --
    Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    1. Re:The R in DRM? by firstmethod · · Score: 1

      Actually that's the FSF excercising their sense of humor, as in Woe32 (instead of Win32). Kind of childish really. Though it would be funny as hell if it backfired in court.

    2. Re:The R in DRM? by Kickasso · · Score: 1

      Yes, they should write "Digital Rights Management (henceforth Digital Restriction Management)".

    3. Re:The R in DRM? by sepluv · · Score: 2, Informative
      They don't use that term in the (normative) text of the license, just as a heading.

      Anyway the term intentionally (by it's authors) has no definite semantics (so really couldn't appear in a legal document without definition), and the FSF's expansion of the acronym more accurately describes what the term is usually used to refer to.

      --
      Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
      [This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
  46. Re:great; now GPL software is prohibited on Window by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

    Hmm.. so it's now legal to make GPL Java software (v2 only had a restricted version of first part of the clause, and java is *not* shipped OS libraries so didn't count.. not that that stopped anyone).

  47. That wasn't really the question by Julian+Morrison · · Score: 1

    I'm not really asking if they can be merged with pure pure v3 code. I'm asking whether the baseline version ought to be dragged up to v3. Ought GPL2 to be abandoned?

    Note that merging v2+ with v3+ code makes the resuling whole become v3+, the baseline has been moved up. So in that regard the questions overlap. In fact, Linus for example is likely to face that question when considering merging patches that were licensed v3+ or derived from v3+ code. It will eventually get rather uncomfortable trying to hang onto v2+ purity.

    1. Re:That wasn't really the question by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      Just remove the 'or later' clause... did this on all my projects over a year ago.

      If you don't the first time someone submits any code and says 'this is v3' it'll force the entire project v3, and until I see a proper legal breakdown of the final text there's no way in hell that's happening.

  48. Draft of Version 3 comptable with CDDL and similar by Marcion · · Score: 1

    "e) They may impose software patent retaliation, which means permission
    for use of your added parts terminates or may be terminated, wholly or
    partially,"

    The draft of Version 3 of the GPL is comptable with CDDL and similar GPL2 incompatable free software licences, this is very good news for developing software that uses components from for example, say FSF and Sun.

  49. vendor can't run Gnu ls from a script by tech-law-ny · · Score: 1

    Suppose I develop a closed-source OS that ships the Gnu ls source and
    a binary (/usr/local/bin/ls). Within my OS, I have a large non-GPL shell
    script that generates reports about system usage. It has the line:

          ls -lS | head -10 | mail -s "largest files" root

    (Note that -S is the "sort by file size" option, which Gnu ls has, but
    many other ls programs don't have.) Consider two scenarios:

    (1) My OS has a non-GPL /bin/ls that was developed independently of
            Gnu ls but does recognize -S. Therefore the script works regardless
            of whether /bin or /usr/local/bin is first in the script's path.

    (2) My OS has a non-GPL /bin/ls that does not recognize -S. The script
            works only if /usr/local/bin is first in the script's path.

    My reading is that scenario (2) is a GPL violation, according to the
    "But when you distribute the same sections for use in combination with
    covered works" clause. Scenario (1) is not a GPL violation.

    I suspect the GPLv3's intent here is to prohibit a closed-source
    program that accomplishes the bulk of its work by executing a GPL
    program and reformatting its outputs (e.g., displaying them within an
    extensive non-GPL GUI). The actual stipulation is that a non-GPL
    program cannot rely on the existence of a GPL program for even a very
    minor task. With GPLv3, GPL software becomes much less useful on a
    closed-source OS, unless the user would be manually interacting with
    the GPL program without any vendor-supplied scripting.

    1. Re:vendor can't run Gnu ls from a script by Kickasso · · Score: 1

      If you mean the second paragraph of section 1, I think the intention is to force you to provide, say, makefiles, config files for things like sendmail, and such. Those are "scripts" too. They're strictly needed to build and run the program which is otherwise useless; note the word "needed" in the license. In your example, the vendor's script is not needed to run GNU ls and so can stay closed-source.

    2. Re:vendor can't run Gnu ls from a script by tech-law-ny · · Score: 1

      Actually my concern was about section 5, not section 1.

      The vendor wanted to ship a non-GPL shell script. One small part of
      the shell script executes Gnu ls. Gnu ls is considered a "Program"
      that is a "covered work." The combination of the shell script and Gnu
      ls is a "work based on the Program."

      The relevant line in the script uses the -S option to ls, and won't
      work without Gnu ls (in my scenario 2). Thus, the vendor must be
      shipping the script "for use in combination with covered works."

      This is, I think, a GPLv3 violation.

      I suppose this opens the question of whether, for example, the Linux
      version of Adobe Reader is "for use in combination with covered works"
      in the sense that it requires the Linux kernel. But I believe this
      situation is much easier to clarify, if necessary. A non-GPL program
      that relies on executing a GPL program is the more difficult scenario.

    3. Re:vendor can't run Gnu ls from a script by Kickasso · · Score: 1

      I don't think your script by itself would be a "derivative work under copyright law" (Section 0); after all, you can call Sun's 'ls' (or perhaps 'dir', he-he) from a script and nobody in his right mind will make a hiss about it. Your script doesn't become a derivative of 'dir' just because it calls 'dir'. No way! If it was the case, no one could script no non-free program whatsoever.

      Your script MAY be considered a derivative work if you include "the program" along with it. If you're afraid, just don't. Tell people to download GNU tools from FSF, or provide a separate CD/download/whatever. Though it would be nice if GPLv3 permitted such verbatim inclusion of "the program" into larger works. It would be only logical: after all, the whole mess is about source availability, but to call ls from a script you don't need any source at all. Perhaps somebody should tell FSF about it.

  50. Only if you merge the patch by Julian+Morrison · · Score: 1
    the first time someone submits any code and says 'this is v3' it'll force the entire project v3
    Only if you merge the patch. That is v2 => v3 can't be accidental, it has to involve an intentional act.

    Only the other hand, my point is, if you strand your code in v2 like you're suggesting, and accept patches under those terms, then in the entirely predictiable future in which something you meed to include is v3 you'll be forced to chase everyone down and get their permission to relicense. For example, if you need to link a GPL (not LGPL) shared library, and it's 2010, and no modern distro uses the creaky antique version of that library which is GPLv2 (except Debian stable, heh). So you're either forced to recode, relicense, link a copy of the old v2 library statically, or allow your program to fade into historical irrelevance. Like I said, uncomfortable.
  51. Re:great; now GPL software is prohibited on Window by NutscrapeSucks · · Score: 1

    The term "widely used interface" seems to take a big bite off the Viralness. Think about things like Netscape plugins or ODBC drivers.

    --
    Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
  52. Mod parent up by idonthack · · Score: 1

    AC said something worth reading

    --
    Why is it that when you believe something it's an opinion, but when I believe something it's a manifesto?
  53. Modification restrictions by ivanski · · Score: 1

    These sections seem off, and even dangerous:

    You may not propagate, modify or sublicense the Program except as expressly provided under this License. Any attempt otherwise to propagate, modify or sublicense the Program is void, and any copyright holder may terminate your rights under this License at any time after having notified you of the violation by any reasonable means within 60 days of any occurrence. ... You are not required to accept this License in order to receive a copy of the Program. However, nothing else grants you permission to propagate or modify the Program or any covered works. These actions infringe copyright if you do not accept this License. Therefore, by modifying or propagating the Program (or any covered work), you indicate your acceptance of this License to do so, and all its terms and conditions.

    Under what theory of copyright law is a copyright owner allowed to restrict modification of the work? AFAIK, a copyright holder can only restrict copying of the work or derived works, but cannot restrict the creation of such derived works. I don't need FSF's permission to modify its source any more than I need a book publisher's permission to write notes on the margins.

    This is a dangerous precedent; if such a clause were to be upheld, it would make any modifications of a copyrighted work subject to similar prohibitions without requiring redistribution. Freedom to tinker would be history.

    Am I totally misreading this?

    1. Re:Modification restrictions by joe+coffee · · Score: 1

      I have been running into some companies that use gpl apps without the proper lic. or sources. They have different interfaces than the original gpled app. These are then resold to other companies with another interface. So one GPLed app could be had by other companies with only a different interface and no one would know. Until someone looks for it. There are also resellers of applications that are just using Gpled code. Not to mention some outsourcing companies creating applications for various companies in the US and outside of its boarders. Some of these turned out to be directly taken from GLPed code. All without the proper lic. and credits or without sources. One example is the CD/DVD burning and ripping software market. These may be only just one of a lot of reasons but don't qoute me or anything. I am no lawyer

    2. Re:Modification restrictions by jeremyp · · Score: 1
      I don't need FSF's permission to modify its source any more than I need a book publisher's permission to write notes on the margins.
      You do need the publisher's permission if you photocopy the book with your notes in and redistribute it. The main point of the GPL is to stop you from restricting other people's rights if you give them a copy of the software, modified or not. There's nothing in the licence that says you have to publish your changes if you keep them to yourself.
      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    3. Re:Modification restrictions by ivanski · · Score: 1

      I beg to differ. The specific sections I quoted above seem to explicitly claim that I need their permission to modify the software in the first place, not just redistribute it. I understand the obvious right of a copyright holder to restrict redistribution of derived works, but this would seem to go far beyond that.

      Reread the sections I posted, and remember that the use of "or" in a legal prohibition means that any one of the listed actions are prohibited.

  54. a diff between version 2 and the draft... by NumbThumb · · Score: 4, Informative

    ...meight be more useful: have a look.

    --
    I have discovered a truly remarkable sig which this 120 chars is too small to contain.
  55. No more StuffIt archives by Jaxoreth · · Score: 1
    "Distribution of the Corresponding Source in accord with this section must be in a format that is publicly documented, unencumbered by patents, and must require no special password or key for unpacking, reading or copying."

    That definitely rules out StuffIt archives (unless you use StuffIt 1.5.1, which is over 15 years old). I'm not sure that Apple's disk image format (.dmg) is documented either.

    --
    In general, it is safe and legal to kill your children. -- POSIX Programmer's Guide
    1. Re:No more StuffIt archives by JeffTL · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure .dmg is just a standard disk image -- but a gzipped tarball runs on OS X, at any rate, so StuffIt shouldn't pose a problem.

      Nevertheless, this GPL almost looks like it imposes so many restrictions that it ceases to be promoting freedom.

    2. Re:No more StuffIt archives by LordoftheWoods · · Score: 1

      This doesn't preclude you from distributing them in a stuffit or whatnot. You will just have to distribute them (or offer to) in another format as well to fulfill your license obligations.

  56. not an 'or later version' clause by weierstrass · · Score: 2, Informative

    it's just that lots of software is licensed as gpl2 or any later version 'at your option'. it's not a fixed part of gpl2.
    for instance the linux kernel is licensed only under gpl2.

    --
    my password really is 'stinkypants'
  57. Those who don't learn history... by amightywind · · Score: 1

    You would be wise to consider the problems with this fair seeming license. What good is simplicity if a license can be subverted? Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it.

    --
    an ill wind that blows no good
    1. Re:Those who don't learn history... by CyricZ · · Score: 1

      How will it be subverted? Microsoft taking code from FreeBSD, for instance, and not releasing the changes isn't subverting the license. The license allows for that, if it doesn't outright encourage it.

      --
      Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
    2. Re:Those who don't learn history... by amightywind · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I typed an incomplete link. Here is the link what I wanted to show, and how MIT/BSD are not as beneficial as you might think.

      --
      an ill wind that blows no good
  58. As a commercial developer, I'm always unsure.... by CFD339 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ...about downloading and trying any GPL library because ultimately I've found too many unclear explanations on what I can and cannot do with it related to code I make money on. In some cases, I'd like to pay for the right to use it commercially but can't even figure out who to write the check to and for how much.

    I wish authors releasing good libraries under GPL would also assume that is OK to make money with it too. Just spell out the terms and conditions for us commercial types too. Not all of what I do is commercial of course, some is free (as in beer) in which case GPL tends to be fine.

    I hate being the kind of person who uses other people's contributions but can't contribute back all the time. I hope the new license clears some of this up for me.

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
  59. Re:Making your own, modified GPL by daverabbitz · · Score: 1

    from : http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#ModifyGPL
    ---
    Can I modify the GPL and make a modified license?
            You can use the GPL terms (possibly modified) in another license provided that you call your license by another name and do not include the GPL preamble, and provided you modify the instructions-for-use at the end enough to make it clearly different in wording and not mention GNU (though the actual procedure you describe may be similar).

            If you want to use our preamble in a modified license, please write to for permission. For this purpose we would want to check the actual license requirements to see if we approve of them.

            Although we will not raise legal objections to your making a modified license in this way, we hope you will think twice and not do it. Such a modified license is almost certainly incompatible with the GNU GPL, and that incompatibility blocks useful combinations of modules. The mere proliferation of different free software licenses is a burden in and of itself.
    ---

    I guess that implies that I was indeed correct.

    --
    What could be better than a jet powered motorcycle? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8l6GTHLSWE
  60. Richrt Anus by HermanAB · · Score: 1

    It seems Ty Coon has been dismissed and replaced by Richrt Anus. Why this potty humour in such an important document?

    --
    Oh well, what the hell...
  61. We'd be better off! by CyricZ · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We'd all be better off if Microsoft took even more code from open source projects. Why is that? Because it could very well increase the quality of their products.

    How does that directly affect you, you may ask? Well, first of all it may reduce the number of Windows-based PCs that can be compromised, and used to send the spam that clogs up your mail servers or your inbox.

    Second of all, it may lead to the adoptation of open source developed software and open standards. This allows for better interoperability between Windows and non-Windows systems. For those of us running massive heterogenous networks, anything that eases interaction between different systems is a blessing.

    --
    Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
    1. Re:We'd be better off! by bit01 · · Score: 1

      M$ is doing eveything in its power to reduce interroperability when they can get away with it, up to and including treacherous computing (TC), close M$Word formats and patented FAT file systems.

      Even if they decided to use more OSS they'd certainly make sure to minimize interoperability.

      In any case they're raking in $40,000,000,000+ per year because of the economic network effect. And expending almost nothing to earn it. Spending a once off billion or two to develop software instead of using OSS is in the noise.

      ---

      Marketing talk is not just cheap, it has negative value. Free speech can be compromised just as much by too much noise as too little signal.

  62. That's just not the case! by CyricZ · · Score: 1

    How exactly is Microsoft, for instance, going to suddenly make FreeBSD "unfree"? Sure, they may take code from FreeBSD, modify it, and not release the changes. But that doesn't change the fact that the original FreeBSD code would still be freely available.

    --
    Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
  63. The changes are irrelevant. by CyricZ · · Score: 1

    But the changes are irrelevant. The original BSD licensed software is still freely available.

    If your theory about those with resources throwing money at the projects until they disappear was correct, then we wouldn't have directly competing projects such as FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD around, because Microsoft would have bought them out. But that didn't happen, and most likely wouldn't, thus your theory is incorrect. And nevertheless, even if your theory were correct, that yet again wouldn't prevent the original code from being freely available.

    --
    Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
    1. Re:The changes are irrelevant. by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Microsoft lost what little interest they ever ad in building a better Unix years ago, around the time they sold Xenix. On the other hand the history of X windows is exactly the history of commercial vendors taking a free product and making sure that no one in practice could use it. That's why XFree86 was invented.

  64. my take on the draft by AigariusDebian · · Score: 1

    As a figter against software patents I have now some experience reading legal documents and here is what I think of this one.

    http://aigarius.blogspot.com/2006/01/ok-i-read-fir st-gplv3-draft.html

  65. On the web services loophole by bitspotter · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Interesting that in the rationale, they decided against taking action to close the web services/remote execution loophole.

    It's doubly interesting that, while they made some changes to combat DRM, they said nothing at all about Trusted/Treacherous Computing, which is the foundational layer enabling most modern DRM.

    I think that's good, because I believe you can use the latter to combat the former, just by leveraging existing terms in GPLv2, combined with the public's natural interest in retaining privacy.

    1. Re:On the web services loophole by VENONA · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, I guess I'm not bothered by a lack of consistency this evening. Above, I replied to a post by YesIAmAScript that I'd take Digital Restrictions Management over Digital Rights Management, as a definition of DRM, and the devil take prior usage.

      Now I'm going to defend prior usage, and go with Trusted Computing over Treacherous Computing. Thanks for saying a bit in it's defense. I've just spent several hours last week having to defend it from some people who bought into a whole lot of FUD. Frustrating, but either that, or the project wouldn't have gotten off the ground...

      Then you pop this short post in, and I get a chance for a public FUD-fighting post. Which begins here.

      Trusted Computing has been around a lot longer than it's been used as an enabler for DRM, and picked up the Treacherous Computing moniker. It goes well back into the history of government computing, for example. Anyone can probably Google up many OS design articles related to the size of TCBs (Trusted Computing Bases) being too large, etc.

      As I'm sure you're aware (but not nearly enough other people are), TC can have some righteous non-government uses. Employers might use it to make sure that home workers connecting by VPN are running a sane environment, etc. That's getting to be an essential technique in protecting some networks. I don't see anything wrong with it, if it's company gear you're using. And there are tons of other uses.

      There are some dangers, like there is in using many powerful tools. The trick will be to prevent MS (or other coporations or consortia, but I trust MS the least, given their legal history) from doing some enormous power grab through Palladium-like initiatives. But it's too useful to go away. TPM (Trusted Platform Module) drivers have been in Linux since the 2.6.12 kernel, and more are in development.

      There's tons of FUD being propagated about Trusted Computing, such as Cory Doctorow confusing TC and DRM (I get a lot of this) on BoingBoing at http://www.boingboing.net/2005/07/31/apple_to_add_ trusted.html

      But there's some good info as well. There's a good corbet article and wide-ranging discussion at http://lwn.net/Articles/144681

      I would urge anyone who isn't familiar with Trusted Computing to spend some quality time with your search engine of choice. TC has important implications, only one of which is as possible DRM enabler.

      --
      What you do with a computer does not constitute the whole of computing.
    2. Re:On the web services loophole by Alsee · · Score: 1

      The blog you linked is wrong.

      I wrote an extensive reply, but apparantly it needs to be reviewed before it vecomes a visible reply. So I'll just give the reason in a nutshell. It says that modifications will be given back to the community, but they won't. It describes the modification being given to some commercial review and certification company. And while the GPL means that that review company cannot be prohibited from publishing/redistributing the source code, there is nothing requiring them to do so. And in fact any such company will have their own personal voluntarily self-imposed policy of keeping confidential all software that is submitted for review. It is standard business practice to keep that sort of thing confidential, and even if it weren't already standard, a company would immediately pop up offering that policy and it would be the company and the only company that would ever be used.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    3. Re:On the web services loophole by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Trusted Computing... Thanks for saying a bit in it's defense.

      But he (and the blog he linked) were wrong. If you recheck his post you'll see my reply explaining the error in the reasoning.

      I've just spent several hours last week having to defend it from some people who bought into a whole lot of FUD. Frustrating

      I'll certainly grant that there is a lot of FUD and missinformation going around about Trusted Computing. And I'll certainly grant that it can be frustrating dealing with that FUD and missinformation.

      Trusted Computing has been around a lot longer than it's been used as an enabler for DRM, and picked up the Treacherous Computing moniker. It goes well back into the history of government computing, for example. Anyone can probably Google up many OS design articles related to the size of TCBs (Trusted Computing Bases) being too large, etc.

      Yes, I am well aware of TCB's. And how many of those systems were explicitly designed to secure the system against the owner? Explicitly designed against the owner's interest and desires?

      No, I think you're wrong. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any TCB system with the same anti-owner design critera prior to Trusted Computing as a DRM enabler.

      TC can have some righteous non-government uses.

      Not really, not that aren't basically some variation on DRM. (With DRM-type intent being quite UnRighteous, chuckle.)

      The logic error here is in trying to advertize the righteous vitamins and nutrients of an apple with a cyanide poison pill inside. There is no possible way to justify the cyanide pill inside by citing righteous vitamins and minerals. Not when you are forbidding people the option to buy normal genuinely righteous apples without posion pills inside.

      The proper comaprison is not between current computers and Trusted Computers... that is as invalid as a comparison between no food and a poisoned apple. The correct comparison is between getting the nutricious vitamins and mineral without the poison pill. The comparison is between the poison-pill Trusted Computing and a different set of almost identical new hardware with an identical set of capabilites that preserves all of the benefits for the owner and which eliminated the poison pill and eliminated all of the abuses. An identical machine that still provides all of the new features and benefits of securing the computer for it's owner without securing the computer against the owner.

      For brevity I will give a technical explanation of the non-poison pill version, a technical explanation of how to get all of the benefits and none of the abuses. Simply allow people the option of buying an otherwise identical system that (1) Comes with a printed copy of the PrivEK and (2) which can export the RSK encrypted to the PrivEK. If you are unfamiliar with PrivEK and RSK, just ask and I can explain.

      The result is a system that gives the owner all of the same security and protection benefits, a system that protects his data and secures his software and the system configureation, and which gives the same pritections against viruses and hackers and theft, but it is a system where the owner has his master key if he wants it and he can unlock anything on his computer that he wahts to. He can use his key to regain control of his computer, a key to escape lock in and lock out. A key to set and adjust his security the way he wants whenever he wants.

      This would be a Secure Computer rather than a Trusted Computer.

      Employers might use it to make sure that home workers connecting by VPN are running a sane environment

      First let me cover this example where the company has authorized employees connecting using their employee's own personal computers.

      The default situation would be exactly the same with my Secure Computers, and the employer could still securely identify that it was the authorized empoyee. However with a Secure Computer secured for the owner a

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    4. Re:On the web services loophole by bitspotter · · Score: 1

      Very astute. It took me a while to think of this.

      I would still argue that an "expert" cathedral would not really offer much assurance that the code was secure. There's really no significant advantage to releasing the code to an "independent third party" if they don't release it further. At that rate, you might as well just let the vendor evaluate it.

      A market would also evolve for certification, and CAs that release would naturally be considered more trustworthy than those that don't.

    5. Re:On the web services loophole by Alsee · · Score: 1

      CAs that release would naturally be considered more trustworthy than those that don't

      The customer are the online companies. They would simply never select a CA that releases in the first place. And to the extent the public is comparing the trystworthiness of competing CAs, they are restricted to a relative comparison between non-releasing CAs.

      And any issue of reasing CAs vs non-releasing CAs goes way over the heads of 99.9% of the public anyway. In fact I'd be surprised to see the public pay any real attention to that sort of CA certification of online services. I doubt it would be much more meaningful than the current eTrust certification many websites get on their privacy policies.

      The only CAs that will really be taken seriously... the ones that will be locked down and oppressive as hell... will be the CAs checking and certifying the security of anti-public DRM systems. The ones that certify DRM hardware and software for the RIAA and MPAA, and the ones that demand a Trusted Computing Remote Attestation of *your* PC hardware and software configuration, to ensure that your PC is properly secured to enforce DRM music and DRM movies and DRM web content and that you are incapable of running any sort of popup blocker or ad blocker while viewing a website... that you cannot view the webpage unless they have a guarantee that you are viewing the ads along with it.

      I expect enforcing webpage ads will be one of the earliest and biggests uses of the system.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  66. Also bans use of RPC abstractions such as CORBA ? by yoshac · · Score: 1

    It appears to me that communication between a wide subset of software would be outlawed by the "intimate data communication or control flow" clause.

    This is a much broader definition of "derived work" than was traditionally supported by the filtration/abstraction/comparison tests used by copyright legislation.

    Basically, CORBA and other RPC schemes cannot be used between GPL V3 and other software?

    Where is the definition of "intimate data communication" and "flow control".

    For example, are Win32 API messages included? How about RPC across the internet? Or HTTP messaging between a webserver and a browser?

    It seems to be just as vague and open to interpretation as the previous definitions of program linkage.

  67. just to elaborate on that point by penguin-collective · · Score: 2, Funny

    It's too bad that you have to understand any kind of legaleese to be a programmer, but that's life.

    I think programmers aren't the ones to complain about obscure notation and languages, given that we have invented many more of them than lawyers ever have in the history of the world.

  68. GPL and linking by mewphobia · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Does someone mind explaining to me the deal with GPL and linking? AFAIK, you can only link GPL'd programs to GPL'd programs.

    But what is the inherent difference between linking and communicating with a program in another manner?

    If my code communicates with a GPL program via tcp/ip, or via function calls the only logical difference i can see is speed?

  69. no slippery slope by penguin-collective · · Score: 1

    The FSF never was about "free as in beer" software, nor was it about "free as in you-can-do-whatever-you-like-with-it" software. I'm sorry you misunderstood this point, but the FSF has been completely clear about it.

    The FSF is trying to guarantee a specific set of freedoms, and they are using whatever methods the legal system gives them in order to make those guarantees.

    Of course, your kind of confusion extends into other areas. For example, there are many people who think that a free society is a society in which everybody can do whatever they like, but that's false. A free society is a society in which people can do whatever they like, up to the point where it starts interfering with other people's freedoms.

  70. Languages without whitespace restrictions are bad by typical · · Score: 1

    I know some of you new Eclipse/Visual Studio DOT NET guys love 30000
    character lines, and don't get me started on perl, but for the projects
    I work on having long lines is a drawback.


    I wish that programming languages didn't allow freedom to place whitespace (as C, perl, and so forth do). Python is partway there.

    The reason why is the same reason that HTML (at least as originally envisioned) was set up to dissociate the storage format from the display formatting. I can stick newlines wherever I want when writing HTML, but it will be displayed however the user wants. If he wants emphasized text to appear in orange, or be set off by *stars*, or to appear in an italic face, he can do so. Dissociating the storage and viewing format provides this benefit.

    The problem is that people take advantage of the flexibility of the storage format of programming languages like C to insert display formatting -- a few spaces here and there to line things up -- and there is no clean way to separate the storage format and the display format. A better approach would be to have a fixed storage format (preventing display formatting from being encoded with the file). Each user could make the file display however they want while working with it, and their additions would be free of any of their own display preferences.

    With the existing schemes, you can always make a file display however you want -- ram it through GNU indent -- but after you save the file, you've lost the original embedded display formatting information.

    If all files used single spaces as separators between all tokens or something along those lines, then an editor could display the file however it wanted.

    Of course, it would make editing the language with a regular text editor less good, which is probably why this hasn't really caught on (I think that languages that aren't easily editable in standard text editors are slowly approaching -- I listened to a lecture on aspect-oriented programming, and I think that the largest drawback is that working with the thing in a standard text editor kind of sucks).

    --
    Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
  71. Patents must be given away by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    When it comes to patents, the draft is actually not very aggressive about them.

    Under the draft, you are required to grant a patent license to whoever may use the software. That may not be as agressive as some licences, but it's definitely something to think about.

    The wording needs to be cleaned up. This sentence is a doozy:
    The conditions must limit retaliation to .... lawsuits that lack the justification of retaliating against other software patent lawsuits that lack such justification.


    GPL v2 was legalese, but the wording was much clearer than this. Hopefully it will be cleaned up before the final version.

    --
    Qxe4
  72. CS and law by typical · · Score: 1

    I really wish that software development courses (and CS courses, because to be honest, more people with a CS major wind up developing software than writing papers) included a legal component. One course should be enough to at least cover the crucial basics.

    --
    Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
    1. Re:CS and law by bit01 · · Score: 1

      One course should be enough to at least cover the crucial basics.

      I agree with you in part but you need to be careful. If software student learns more about law then they're learning less about software.

      A lot of law is like real life nomic, an arms race where the only winners are the lawyers. By putting more legal expertese into the community all you're doing is raising the bar overall so people waste even more resources on legal manoeuvres rather than actually producing something worthwhile.

      ---

      The USA and Europe should harmonize their software patent laws with China and India.

  73. Re:Apple contributes to huge numbers of projects by killjoe · · Score: 1

    "No, we don't make all of our source code for everything (the UI) available.

    Big deal; that doesn't make us Darth Vader."

    Err, I never said you were darth vader. I simply said you appreaciate very much the free coding the BSD programmers do for you. It allows you to profit nicely from their labors.

    One supposes they don't mind. After all if they didn't want to volunteer code to apple then they would have coded using the GPL. Then again if they did that then you would have to open up your UI. Thank for the BSD programmers, you get to use their code while keeping your UI proprietary.

    --
    evil is as evil does
  74. Re:Very good, albeit unnecessarily cryptic in part by rikennedy · · Score: 1
    The sentence itself, while parted with a colon, also feels grammatically unweildy.

    Yeah, but what legal document doesn't?

    Should the "of" in "of other software [...]" not be "for"?

    No. The sentence is saying "development of other software [...], distribution of other software [...], and use of other software [...], as 'development,' 'distribution,' and 'use' are defined under the terms of this license." Factor out the common "of other software [...]" from all three portions and put it at the end.

    That particular sentence is fine. There are others, though, that don't have good parallel structure. Consider this passage from section 6:

    Distribution of the Corresponding Source in accord with this section must be in a format that is publicly documented, unencumbered by patents, and must require no special password or key for unpacking, reading or copying.

    It's saying that the distribution must be in a format that is publicly documents, that it must be in a format that is unencumbered by patents, and that it must be in a format that is must require no special password. Is must? The alternative reading of that sentence is that the distribution must be in a format that is publicly documented, the distribution unencumbered by patents, and the distribution must require no special password. Distribution unencumbered? There are either too many verbs or not enough.

    I can only hope that the authors of the license simply haven't given it to a copy editor yet -- this is just a draft, after all.

    --
    Rob
  75. And hardware patents too by tepples · · Score: 1

    That definitely rules out StuffIt archives [and possibly] Apple's disk image format (.dmg)

    Which platforms still use StuffIt? As for .dmg, isn't source code more commonly distributed in .tar.gz or .tar.bz2 files?

    Fact is, I'm more worried about traditional (hardware) patents on the physical distribution medium. CD-R, CD-RW, and all DVD formats are still subject to at least physical layer patents and thus are likely to fail the "unencumbered by patents" test.

  76. Coon stole my bike by tepples · · Score: 1

    It seems Ty Coon has been dismissed and replaced

    Because coon is a synonym for nigger.

    1. Re:Coon stole my bike by HermanAB · · Score: 1

      Oh good grief and Anus is somehow better? At least I guess it applies equally to all of humanity...

      --
      Oh well, what the hell...
    2. Re:Coon stole my bike by tepples · · Score: 1

      and Anus is somehow better? At least I guess it applies equally to all of humanity...

      That, and Anus is the medical word unlike "asshole" which is the taboo word.

  77. how do you arrive at that conclusion? by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 1

    Are you saying those who invented/use the term "DRM" don't say it stands for anything?

    You're just plain wrong. The earliest recorded uses of this term do indicate the middle "R" stands for "Rights".

    Yeah, it's a doublespeak-type acronym, but it's equally Orwellian to try to change the perception of DRM simply by changing its name.

    --
    http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
    1. Re:how do you arrive at that conclusion? by sepluv · · Score: 1
      Are you saying those who invented/use the term "DRM" don't say it stands for anything?
      Not at all. I said "the term [i.e.: "Digital Rights Management"]...has no definite semantics" (so it would be inappropriate to use it in a legal document without defining it); i.e., in your words, it is "doublespeak".
      --
      Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
      [This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
    2. Re:how do you arrive at that conclusion? by VENONA · · Score: 1

      Nine times out of ten, I'd completely agree that the prior usage should stand. But in this case, I'll go with 'Restrictions'. The entire vendor DRM push, IMHO, has been disingenuous from square one. Forcing myself to respect prior usage is just too painful, and adds to public perceptions that DRM is a Good Thing.

      It's acting against my own interests, in assistance of people who seem ruled by greed and shortsightedness.

      I'm coming down on the side of accuracy. Perhaps this is, as you say, Orwellian. It's been years since I read the book, so I really couldn't judge. If so, I guess I have no problem being considered Orwellian.

      --
      What you do with a computer does not constitute the whole of computing.
  78. Anti-spyware bit by typical · · Score: 1

    will hold up legally, and how much of it is just hot air and rants?

    I'm not really thrilled with this part:

    Regardless of any
    other provision of this license, no permission is given to distribute
    covered works that illegally invade users' privacy, nor for modes of
    distribution that deny users that run covered works the full exercise of
    the legal rights granted by this License.


    I don't like spyware, but I think that the GPL is a really, really bad place to try to "fix" spyware. And illegally under what laws? Can I now not distribute my software in Podunk, North Dakota because it's illegal, under Podunk city law, to do Tivo-style recommendations based on phone-home viewing data? It seems like it's pretty broad, and doesn't seem within the scope of promoting Free Software.

    I wouldn't really like to see restrictions on spammers using GPL software either -- not because I like spammers much, but because I don't think that the GPL should be saddled with anything non-crucial.

    --
    Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
  79. Re:I need to know by sco08y · · Score: 1

    RTFL: Section 2 "This License gives unlimited permission to privately modify and run the Program, provided you do not bring suit for patent infringement against anyone for making, using or distributing their own works based on the Program."

  80. Linking Issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    When I write my program and my program is dynamically linked, I have no control over which libraries it will be linked against. If it links against a GPL'd library, do I have to make my program GPL? What if I developed it with a GPL'd library, but it can link against a corresponding proprietary library? How about if I linked against a proprietary library, the only copy of this library being my own, and everyone else links against a GPL'd library; does my application need to be GPL'd? Is it up to the user to check that none of his proprietary programs link against GPL'd libraries?

  81. It's a EULA by cyberformer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The Affero license has been "testing" the Web Services clause for a while.

    The problem for Free Software purists is that it's a EULA: It restricts use, not just copying. That seems to contradict the "not a contract" part of the GPL, and probably can't be enforced in many jurisidctions (although it is a way of fighting back against UCITA or similar laws / court decisions that make EULAs binding).

    1. Re:It's a EULA by jamienk · · Score: 1

      I don't see how the principal of "you must make the source code for derived works available via a link" would be a EULA. I create a web-based program and my code contains a link to download the source code. I copyright it. Under copyright laws, you have no right to modify my code unless I grant you permission. I do grant you permission, but my LICENSE states that you must either leave the downloading part of my code intact or else replace it with simmilar functionality. Remember, by default you have no right to modify my copyrighted code, so if you do no follow the terms of my lisence, you have no right to remove my link to download the source code. GPL purists might object that that puts a strong restiction on the freedom of the users of the code -- they are forced to have a certain funtionality in their program.

      http://lwn.net/Articles/61292/ for mopre info on what it means to be a LICENSE.

      I think that the article from itarchitect.com that you linked to is clearly wrong: the new GPL draft doesn't contain this "must allow downloads" language; it only says that if there is some code with a license that DOES contain language like this then that code can still be GPL COMPATABLE. There is no issue of "loading something into RAM is making a copy" involved. The "end user" in the cases covered by the GPL and other similar licenses is the distributor or modifier of the code, not the person viewing the code's output (a user of a web-app).

  82. Re:I need to know by Tim+C · · Score: 1

    Ah, but there's the rub - many people wouldn't see a publicly hosted server as being something that is "privately run". In fact, a lot of people think that there should be a clause in the GPL that allows access to the source of GPLed server code - eg for websites that use GPLed bulletin board software.

    As to the other part of the question, of course you could still charge for access to the game, regardless of the GPL status of the code. What you couldn't do would be prevent someone from setting up their own competing service.

    If I were to set up a MMORPG or similar and GPL some of it, I'd probably GPL the code but keep the copyright on the content (ie sounds, graphics, etc). That's what id do when they GPL their old games - just because you can now get the source of Quake 3 doesn't mean you can legally distribute the content that it requires.

  83. Re:As a commercial developer, I'm always unsure... by moranar · · Score: 2, Informative
    I wish authors releasing good libraries under GPL would also assume that is OK to make money with it too.


    You can _always_ make money with GPL programs. Or at least, you can legally try. You could take e.g. gimp, and sell it, provided you comply with the gpl terms: that anyone can take the source code you're distributing and modify it, and sell it themselves if they wish. The thing is, if you do this precise kind of stuff, you might have negative publicity. It is nevertheless your right under the GPL.

    More clarifications at the FSF's GPL FAQ's page.
    --
    "I think it would be a good idea!"
    Gandhi, about Internet Security
  84. The patents chunk is still very significant by typical · · Score: 1

    The patents chunk is still very significant. What it comes down to is that any developer can inadvertently effectively nullify a company's patents (at least WRT GPLv3 implementations, which can be shoehorned via a separate process model into allowing even non-GPLv3 software to do patented things).

    The company I work for (very large) is dicey about even using software components under the MIT license, because they're unsure about the risks of this whole open source thing -- they require that a lawyer sign off an OK. Given their patent portfolio, I can almost guarantee that they would never allow a programmer to release anything under GPLv3.

    As a matter of fact, I would be surprised if IBM does not have significant feedback on this.

    If GPLv3 does go through, I could even see IBM spawning a child company just to produce open source software, to keep their patent portfolio secure.

    Another point I'm interested in -- by my reading, the requirement to provide a free license is on a per-patent basis, *not* on a per-claim basis.

    Many, many patents contain intentionally over-broad claims. Adding a claim only costs about $100 or so, plus lawyer's fees. If you have 30 claims, ranging from the absurdly broad to the unnecessarily narrow, if someone challenges your patent, they might only get 17 of the claims rejected -- so you still have almost as much IP as you theoretically could have had if you claimed the very maximum amount of IP you could get away with. If you had only two claims (one very broad, one very narrow), and the broad claim is rejected, you are left with only the narrow claim.

    Under this GPLv3 draft, if my reading is correct, someone releasing software affected by a patent that is over-broad must provide a license providing free use of *all* claims of that patent. This is very significant if GPLv3 catches on. This means that all the patents out there with extremely broad claims will be effectively nullified by any of these companies that want to release GPLv3 software.

    I like most of the GPLv3, but I think that the patents bit may make it unacceptable -- the FSF has a *lot* of weight to throw around in the form of software under their license, but I think that they're being too ambitious in trying to fight software patents with the GPL. Unless, of course, my reading is incorrect.

    --
    Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
  85. Friendly explanations are far more becoming. by jbn-o · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Lots of lawyers are wrong in their legal views and some of them even lose cases. Lots of basketball players who can perform slam dunks sometimes miss the basket and sometimes lose games. Being an expert doesn't mean you're above being questioned. But you apparently don't even like for people to question whether you're really a lawyer, so you post anonymously, giving us no information to determine if you're actually a lawyer as you claim to be.

    Eben Moglen, counsel for the FSF, is also a lawyer who has said repeatedly that "Licenses are not contracts". Perhaps you would take the matter up with him instead. After reading his essays and listening to his talks, I find him to be a far more patient and informative speaker than you appear to be. Then again, he might object to some anonymous nobody claiming to be a lawyer arguing a point with him that he's rehashed so many times.

    Pamela Jones, a journalist with a paralegal background who runs Groklaw, has gone on record saying that "The GPL is a license, not a contract" in which she cites Moglen's essay and expands on it a bit. Perhaps you'd rather discuss the matter with her, since she too might be more on your level of expertise.

    But I think it's telling that instead of patiently explaining the difference between the terms 'license' and 'contract' you instead chose to take a needlessly confrontational and remarkably uninformative route to point out that most non-lawyers don't understand the terms. It's unfortunate that the /. moderators don't seem to penalize such posts in an attempt to raise the level of discourse here.

  86. Re:I haven't noticed any difference... by mustafap · · Score: 1

    >Do you think it could be just your own expectations projected onto what you actually see?

    Isn't that exactly what statistics are about? :o)

    I dont it's the case, but I'll try an analysis on past stories, if I can.

    --
    Open Source Drum Kit, LPLC deve board - mjhdesigns.com
  87. Give it time. by jbn-o · · Score: 1

    For some, but even now over a decade after it came out in its final form many people still don't understand it (including people who use or license programs under it). You can often tell how deep people's understanding is by listening intently to their questions and counterarguments—people aren't stupid, but they are sometimes ignorant. Fortunately, there is a well-known cure for ignorance.

    Give the new GPL some time to be discussed and eventually we'll get to the same point we are now with GPLv2—a lot of people in the Free Software community understand what it says in large part and they get on with using it (it's the most popular Free Software license). Lawyers will study the new GPL (or so I'm told from the recent New York Times article about it) and a few cases will be tried that involve the new GPL and more people will feel like doing business with it is acceptable.

    Finding out that non-lawyers find legalese to be "incomprehensible" is nothing new, just as non-programmers don't understand what programmers and computer technicians are talking about when they throw around terms in common programming parlance. I'm sure most trades have their in-speak that is hard to (shall we say, grok?) for outsiders.

  88. Startup messages by Simon+Brooke · · Score: 1

    I'm slightly concerned about the wording on startup messages (section 5.2c).

    Otherwise, the modified work must display this information [an appropriate copyright notice, and tells the user that there is no warranty for the program (or that you provide a warranty), that users may redistribute the modified work under these conditions, and how to view a copy of this License together with the central list (if any) of other terms in accord with section 7] at startup

    I've two issues with this. One is prolixity. When a system starts up, dozens and perhaps hundreds of individual components are started. If each component is required to print:

    bogosity is Copyright (c) 2006 bogosity associates. This program is distributed without warranty express or implied. You may modify this program, and may redistributes the modified program, according to the terms of the GPL version 3 which you will find at /usr/share/doc/bogosity/GPL3.

    then the startup log is going to become unmanageably big, and hard to search for important information.

    The other issue is granularity. The stuff I build is webapps, comprising sometimes as many as forty or fifty individual servlets. I don't control which servlet is started first, because servlets are started when they are first required to serve content a user (or other system) has requested. If I'm required to 'show' this at startup, am I required to show it as each servlet starts, or only when the first servlet in a given webapp starts? If the latter, do I have to keep track of which servlet is started first in order that it can know to print the message?

    --
    I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
  89. Unclear formulations by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

    There are two parts where I've found clearly unclear formulations:

    Section 6.[3] b): "accompanied by a written offer, valid
    for at least three years and valid for as long as you offer spare parts
    or customer support for that product model"

    Is that an and or an or? That is, does it mean if a company stops offering spare parts/support before the end of the three years, it doesn't need to give source code any more, despite the three years are not over, or does it mean that if after those three years, they still offer spare parts or support, they also need to provide the source, despite the three years have passed? I suspect the latter, in which case the appropriate formulation would IMHO be "valid for as long as you offer spare parts or customer support for that product model, but at least for three years".

    7. e): "The conditions must
    limit retaliation to a subset of these two cases: 1. Lawsuits that lack
    the justification of retaliating against other software patent lawsuits
    that lack such justification. 2. Lawsuits that target part of this
    work, or other code that was elsewhere released together with the parts
    you added, the whole being under the terms used here for those parts."

    Same question: and or or? That is, has it to be a subset of the union of the two sets defined by the conditions given, or of the intersection?

    BTW, I think the definition of the term "aggregate" in section 5.[2] would logically belong in the section 0. Definitions.

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  90. More like Mosaic Law than contemporary by petrus4 · · Score: 1

    To me this sounds at least in places as though the FSF are using the GPL as an opportunity to further dictate to their already-converted more than anything else.

    For one thing, it insists that software patents should either be made freely usable by everyone, or else not obtained at all. Whether you argue that this is a desirable sentiment or not, the bottom line is that this directive is beyond Stallman's legitimate power to make. The draft tries to decree a similar prohibition against DRM, which again, is beyond its power and will be found unenforcable.

    I've said for a while that Stallman's ego and delusions about his own level of authority were getting out of control...to me, this draft fairly conclusively proves that assertion.

    1. Re:More like Mosaic Law than contemporary by ctid · · Score: 1
      For one thing, it insists that software patents should either be made freely usable by everyone, or else not obtained at all. Whether you argue that this is a desirable sentiment or not, the bottom line is that this directive is beyond Stallman's legitimate power to make. The draft tries to decree a similar prohibition against DRM, which again, is beyond its power and will be found unenforcable.

      I don't understand what you mean here? Suppose I release some code under the GPL. What the new version is saying is that you can't release a program which incorporates my code into your code if your code is patent-encumbered, unless a licence to use your patent is freely granted to everyone. That's perfectly enforceable because the only thing that allows you to redistribute my code at all is the GPL. If it's GPLv3, you lose the right to redistribute if you've incorporated your patent-encumbered stuff with mine. What is unenforceable about that?

      I've said for a while that Stallman's ego and delusions about his own level of authority were getting out of control...to me, this draft fairly conclusively proves that assertion.

      Have you ever wondered why nobody pays any attention to you? Incidentally, the cow/milk analogy in the link in your sig is so preposterous that I think it actually sucks the credibility out of your argument.
      --
      Reality is defined by the maddest person in the room
  91. Re:As a commercial developer, I'm always unsure... by MMC+Monster · · Score: 1

    If you are looking for libraries that you can add to your own commercial projects with impunity, I suggest looking towards LGPL code. With the LGPL you can distribute the library along with your binary and are obligated to release the source code to only the library. In fact, you can change the library around for your benefit and use it and still only have to publish the library.

    Much more commercial friendly that the GPL. :-)

    --
    Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
  92. Re:As a commercial developer, I'm always unsure... by CFD339 · · Score: 1

    Thank you, that's helpful. I've looked at LGPL to some extent,and it makes sense. GPL is too heavy handed. Its like you give me a hammer and tell me that if I build a house with it that I must let everyone live in it.

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
  93. doesn't really work that way. by CFD339 · · Score: 1

    Some tools are valuable as 'free' for use. Some represent a small niche market for very specific kinds of work. Making the choice between either not doing the work at all or doing it without hope of recovering revenue from it is the place the GPL leaves you.

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
    1. Re:doesn't really work that way. by moranar · · Score: 1

      You must be intending other meaning of "commercial" I wasn't thinking of. If you meant "proprietary" or "closed source" I doubt somebody would bother creating an app or library and releasing it under the GPL just to close it for a paycheck.

      --
      "I think it would be a good idea!"
      Gandhi, about Internet Security
  94. Re:As a commercial developer, I'm always unsure... by Per+Abrahamsen · · Score: 1

    > ..about downloading and trying any GPL library because ultimately I've found
    > too many unclear explanations on what I can and cannot do with it related to code
    > I make money on.

    I find them quite clear. My experience is that people who find it unclear are generally trying to do something against the spirit of the license, that might or might not be against the letter of the license. In that case, I'd suggest you find another way.

    > In some cases, I'd like to pay for the right to use it commercially but can't even
    > figure out who to write the check to and for how much.

    It is exactly the same as for all other software.

    If there are multiple contributors to the software and no indication of a "transfer of copyright" procedure for patches, don't bother. It is too complicated to get permission from all the copyright holds.

    If the copyright holder is the FSF, don't bother. They are not for sale.

    Otherwise, send an email to the copyright holder (i.e. either the sole author, or the address the "copyright transfer proecedure" refers to= and ask.

    How difficult can it be?

  95. Re:Making your own, modified GPL by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 1

    I swear I read something completely different on that same page a year ago :/

    --
    -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
  96. GPL Derivatives by StormReaver · · Score: 1

    I like the new clauses, and the clarifications of older clauses. I expect to be releasing my new (and old, since I rarely used the, "...or...any later version" clause) under this license.

    One of the interesting clarifications regards GPL derivatives. Formerly, a developer could not use the GPL as a basis for a new license. That meant, depending on interpretation, that all that software licensed with terms that said stuff like, "this software is released under the terms of the GPL, but with the following changes" may have been violating the FSF copyright on the GPL license itself. Version 3 specifically allows for this behavior.

  97. GPL should equal more freedom, not less by mattpalmer1086 · · Score: 1

    Oh great, so now we don't get to have a Trusted Computing Base that's will be as secure as Vista or its successor? The Trusted Computing Platform has good uses and bad. A good use is protecting the operating system *you* installed from modification by malware - a chain of trust extending up from the hardware - as long as you are in ultimate control of the TCP, of course.

    I'm not too clear about the anti-DCMA provisions in GPL3, but frankly it worries me that this global license is being worded to get around bits of unbalanced U.S. legislation.

    GPL needs to protect the freedom of the source code and derived code to be seen and modified by others, when software based on it is distributed, for a global audience. No more and no less than that - certainly not to tie too closely with any one country's current legal system, or to impose ideological restrictions on the nature of the code that can or can't be written using it.

    1. Re:GPL should equal more freedom, not less by jonwil · · Score: 1

      The intention of my proposal is not to prevent GPL applications from being used in an environment where applications are encrypted or signed, only from being used in an environment where they are encryped or signed and the owner or administrator/root user/superuser of the device is unable to re-sign and run binaries of their choice. For example, it would make it against the GPL to put GPL software on a digital PVR or set top box and then requiring a manufacturer signed kernel on the machine.
      The Playstation 2 linux kit does not count because you can recompile the kernel and replace it without needing to get it signed or go through sony. The special bootloader is the only part of the system that you cannot change and that is not released under the GPL.

    2. Re:GPL should equal more freedom, not less by mattpalmer1086 · · Score: 1

      There I go shooting my mouth off again. I didn't catch your point about "unless the keys are available". I fully agree that this use of the TCP is firmly in the bad camp. Would a clause like this prohibit open source hackers from trying to run their code on such a device?

    3. Re:GPL should equal more freedom, not less by jonwil · · Score: 1

      If the open source hacker has the keys necessary to sign/hash new binaries AND the keys are available to anyone with the source code (e.g. the open source hacker has figured out the keys somehow and posts them), then that would be ok (because the keys are available to anyone with the source code)

      So basicly, the clause I am talking about prevents distributing GPL source code that runs on systems where binaries must be signed/encrypted/protect unless you also provide a way to recompile and replace that GPL source code (for example, the keys if you have them or instructions on whatever security hole you used if you dont)

  98. Re:As a commercial developer, I'm always unsure... by Zathrus · · Score: 1

    If you are looking for libraries that you can add to your own commercial projects with impunity, I suggest looking towards LGPL code

    The LGPL is very unclear in many areas, and it hasn't been seriously vetted by the FSF's lawyers. What happens if you staticly link instead of dynamicly link (the FSF states that you may then provide the non-LGPL object files used for linking as well, but that's not clear from the license wording)? What if there's code in the header files (then it's no longer just the interface -- it's object code as well, and compilers will link that directly into your object files; now it's not sufficient to allow for dynamic linking or provide the .o's for static linking)?

    My company (which is, uh, rather large) has a formal policy -- only BSD/MIT licensed code. It's the only licenses that the lawyers feel comfortable with. The terminology is simple, and there's no question of whether or not it can be used without code release.

    The GPLv3 was supposed to clarify things on the whole linking-to-libraries bit, but based on my reading of this first draft it has not. If anything, it's less clear for a layman.

    In the simple case (dynamic linking, no functions defined in header files), then you're right -- all you have to do is publish changes to the library that you make. But one of the other caveats is that you must be able to use a later version of the LGPL library -- if that library substantially changes then you could run into problems again. Bleh.

    Now all of this is only for the case where you provide executable or object code to outside parties. If all the code runs interally to your company (application service provider) then you can use GPL or LGPL code without issue since you never distribute the code externally. This is something that RMS wanted to address in v3, but, again, I don't see anything that does so. The only danger here is if at some point in the mysterious future you change business models and want to distribute a client-side application, you have to be damned sure that there's no code from a GPL or LGPL project that's snuck in (copy/paste, link, whatever) or else you'll violate the licensing.

  99. GPLs only stick is copyright enforcement by C.+E.+Sum · · Score: 1

    "For one thing, it insists that software patents should either be made freely usable by everyone, or else not obtained at all. Whether you argue that this is a desirable sentiment or not, the bottom line is that this directive is beyond Stallman's legitimate power to make. The draft tries to decree a similar prohibition against DRM, which again, is beyond its power and will be found unenforcable."

    It's enforcable (IMO -- IANAL) in that it doesn't prohibit you from doing either activity. What it *does* prohibit you from being able to use GPLv3'd software if you do the things they don't want you to do.

    Note, I'm not taking a stance on whether or not this is a desirable position..

    The GPL is (very clearly this iteration) a license, and the only stick that the GPL has is that all the rights it grants you to use/modify software go away if you do not follow its license proscriptions. Once breached, you can be sued for copyright infringement if you do not comply.

    --
    -- Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations?
  100. Here's where it gets tricky by CFD339 · · Score: 1

    Using libraries and such you don't always know which you'll want to use until you've tried several. For me, its also an iterative process as I'm learning the technology at the same time I'm looking into the available code. That means trying out lots of things. Since the commercial use arrangements are difficult to track down, I usually try to avoid the whole mess except in those rare occasions when I already KNOW the tool I need.

    Recent example - I'm doing some custom work which uses VOIP as a backbone transport. IAX2 is, IMO, the better protocol. The open sourced project which produces the iaxclient.dll is built to make that easier. Figuring out just how to take advantage of that, however, is quite hard. Since the client is Windoze based, it was WAY easier to use the Microsoft RTC Client libraries and use SIP for the session management. I hate SIP compared to IAX2, and I'm working toward my own implimentation of the IAX2 protocol so I can use that -- but its a great case where some excellent technology is just unworkable (for me, and those like me) in its present form resulting from its open source roots. Its great tech, its functional, its a better design, the code is probably much better --- but it isn't really "finished" at all.

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
    1. Re:Here's where it gets tricky by sveinungkv · · Score: 1

      How you could do it:
      1. Have a free look and see if you like the library.
      2. If you like it, send a mail to the devoloper(s)* asking if it is possible to buy a license for use in unfree software. Include how mutch you could be willing to pay if you deside to use it. I guess many would not mind some extra cash. Also mention why you want to use it, if you belive that would help. Some, like Mysql, Trolltech (QT) and Namesys (Reiser4) will name a price. Others, like FSF, will say no (exept in special cases).
      3. If you recive a yes, see if it fits best for the job. (we are now at the "Try several"-stage)
      4. If it is the best library, pay for a license and use it.

      or, the easy way:
      0. See if you can free your own program. If you can do it, do it. Save yourself the trubble and money, and do what many (including me) considers to be the most ethical thing.

      * Remember that might also include librarys used by the library.

      --
      Spelling/grammar nazis welcome (English is not my first language and I am trying to improve my spelling/grammar)
  101. I wouldn't want them to CLOSE it, only to ... by CFD339 · · Score: 1

    ...only to accept reasonable payment to allow it to be used as part of a closed solution in addition to remaining open for others to use under GPL.

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
    1. Re:I wouldn't want them to CLOSE it, only to ... by moranar · · Score: 1

      Thing is, most people who publish under GPL don't do it for the money. You're better off checking either LGPL or BSD/MIT/ or other licensed software. You're asking "how much does it cost to do exactly the kind of thing this license is designed to prevent?" to people who have chosen precisely that license. It's bound to be a lot of money.

      --
      "I think it would be a good idea!"
      Gandhi, about Internet Security
  102. But the ones to use it need to be able to read it! by kandresen · · Score: 1

    I think that for most users of the license, more important than the legal terms it self is an explanation of what the license is trying to accomplish. Such clarifications may also prevent the abuse of legal terms in court as the clarifications may be valuable in court as well as the clarifications indicate the intent of the wording used.

    Why not add a Wiki style link system to explain what the different sections try to accomplish?

    After all it is the users and the developers who needs to understand their rights and responsibilities, not lawyers.

  103. You think prevent is accurate? by CFD339 · · Score: 1


    Maybe I don't have a good feel for the community then. The success of open source, the availability of tools, and the usefulness of those tools are not diminished by the existance of proprietary software. Keep in mind, I'm talking about things like libraries which are only useful if the software is going to - by its nature - take part in an open standard.

    In the example I gave, if I wanted to build something that "speaks" IAX2 instead of SIP, and to do so I want to have the legal right (which I would presumably have to pay for) to incorporate the existing work someone has done to build the iaxclient.dll itself, isn't that in general GOOD not BAD for the overall success of IAX2, Open Source in general, and the expansion of the platforms that use the open standard connection protocol itself?

    I guess I just don't see how that's bad. Is it bad to make a career out of developing software? I'm all for support and living within the standards. 100% for it. I'd MUCH rather support a standard than not. Not everything is standardized, and not everything should be. Does that mean if I build something which is inherently proprietary that communicates openly with something that isn't, that I'm hurting the industry?

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
    1. Re:You think prevent is accurate? by moranar · · Score: 1

      As far as free software goes, if you take something a lot of people put hard work into, and keep the modifications to yourself without giving back code (not money, but you can give money _too_) then the creators "lose".

      You might argue with me as far as you want, but this is the central piece of the GPL: that if you want to use GPL'ed code (even libraries, and even for whatever noble reason) into your code, you have to release the source to your code too under the GPL. If you don't want to release your code under the GPL, you can't use GPL'ed code in your programs.

      You can still sell your programs, but the people you sell them to have to have access to the source, and they must be able to modify it, etc. according to the GPL. It's even doable, but depends on your target market. But of course I don't have to tell this to you.

      Notice this doesn't mean you have to give your code to _everybody_, just to the people you distribute (i.e. sell) programs.

      --
      "I think it would be a good idea!"
      Gandhi, about Internet Security
  104. must have good crypto by HyperTiger · · Score: 1

    Gpl'd DRM is going to have to be real real good, because it won't have the protection of the DMCA as a crutch to hide behind. If any DRM program using this license doesn't have good code, it will be almost useless. This is going to result in all popular DRM programs (gpl'd) to be far superior on average than those that aren't, because those others have used the DMCA as a crutch for bad code.

  105. interesting - but not quite the case here, IMO by CFD339 · · Score: 1


      I agree completely with what you're saying. If you improve the library or add to it -- you should be contributing that back and of course not making money on the work that's already been done for you. Stack libraries and protocols are a bit different though, no? The code you do has literally nothing to do with the protocol other than as a user of it. Is it the same?

    Not trying to be an ass, or weasel out of something -- the gpl is what is and I agree with it. I just want to bring up that it often fails to meet this kind of need. By virtue of the poor way its addressed (individually) it prevents me even trying out many GPL'd tools because I don't want to invest the time to learn them only to later find out I can't use them.

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
    1. Re:interesting - but not quite the case here, IMO by moranar · · Score: 1

      No, you don't understand. Under the GPL, you are perfectly entitled to try and sell and make money out of what you took + your contributions (if any). It's your freedom to sell the software. I just said that if you do, you have to provide source to the people you sell the software to, and that it might merely be difficult, depending on what your target market is.

      As for protocols... I doubt that someone has GPL'ed a spec or an RFC for a protocol. If you code to an implementation, well, you fall under the shadow of the licence of the implementation, shirley. But I'm not sure I'm able to answer this question. I think you're talking about the kind of things the LGPL was made for (libraries). RMS and the FSF don't want the LGPL to be used that way anymore, because they see it as a way to "close" the contributions. They might be right or not, I don't know.

      Take this all cum grano salis. I'm just a student, I haven't published software yet.

      --
      "I think it would be a good idea!"
      Gandhi, about Internet Security
  106. The treacherous computing issue with GPL by js_sebastian · · Score: 1

    I think another issue with previous versions of the GPL is addressed by requiring not just distribution of source code, but of anything necessary to make the code actually work, including encryption keys. Quoting from the draft:

    "Complete Corresponding Source Code also includes any encryption or
    authorization codes necessary to install and/or execute the source code of
    the work, perhaps modified by you, in the recommended or principal context
    of use, such that its functioning in all circumstances is identical to that
    of the work, except as altered by your modifications. It also includes any
    decryption codes necessary to access or unseal the work's output."

    This is very important if treacherous computing schemes become widespread (that is, "trusted computing" where the owner of the computer cannot get code of his choosing to execute).

    The reason is that if I write code and release it under the old GPL, company A can port it to a treacherous computing platform, compile it and sign the binary with a digital signature enabling it on the platform. Company A then distributes it with the source code. But when another user takes the code, modifies it, and compiles he is unable to sign it (unless he is also a big company with a TCP-enabling key) and is therefore unable to run it on the platform. Company A has therefore effectively stolen a user's right to further modify derivations of a GPL work.

    The proposed changes stops Company A distributing a derivative work for a treacherous computing platform, unless they also publish their TC private key (which they can't). It doesn't stop Company A from using GPL code on a trusted computing platform, where anyone can use their own key to enable code to run on their own computer, so Company A does not need to give us their key.

  107. Re:I need to know by jpowers · · Score: 1

    "Can I just release the client (complete with full source code and under the GPL) while never releasing any bit of the server?"

    Yes, this is one of the points they discussed before. The source sharing currently only applies to distribution of an application. Some people would like to see the source distributed for the server-hosted application, but that isn't likely to end up in GPL3, and it would only apply to your hypothetical MMORPG server software if you had used some other GPL3'd code to construct it.

    If you wrote the software without using other code, it's yours to do whatever you wanted with, including modifying whatever license you release it with. If you believe modified hosted software should have its source shared, you can always release your own code under "the GPL3 plus an additional requirement that you share the source if you modify and host the application without distributing said application."

    I think something like Mambo/Joomla! might be a good example of the type of code where such a license may have a strong effect. Personally I'm on the fence over whether people should be able to host modified GPL apps without sharing it back to the community. It would be nice if everyone saw the long-term benefits of sharing (net acceleration in code improvement, reduced redundancy of labor) but for the most part, I think that since the original source would still be available, someone could just clone the new feature pretty easily.

    --

    -jpowers
  108. "Liberty or Death" by Brett+Glass · · Score: 1

    I love the header "Liberty or Death for the Program." Essentially, what it says is that the so-called "liberty" of the program (which is an absurd concept; a program isn't a thinking being and cannot have liberty) is more important than PEOPLE's liberties.