Next Zelda Title Delayed Again

It will likely work for both by solidtransient · 2006-02-20 04:38 · Score: 4, Insightful

It will be a Gamecube game, but from what I hear they want to release it when the Revolution ships because of the backwards compatibility that the Revolution should have. I mean why not? right? New Zelda, might as well get that cool new system to play it on. I'd do it.

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firestream.net

Re:It will likely work for both by Yahweh+Doesn't+Exist · 2006-02-20 04:40 · Score: 1

that's a crappy reason to delay one of the most anticipated games ever. I hope they're just doing it for actual gameplay reasons, which seems a lot more likely.
Re:It will likely work for both by solidtransient · 2006-02-20 04:42 · Score: 2, Interesting

Its not a crappy reason if it can be played on a Revolution and use the new controller for new gameplay.

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firestream.net
Re:It will likely work for both by KDR_11k · 2006-02-20 04:42 · Score: 0

They're also adding stuff for the Revolution, you can probably use the rod to swing the sword on the Rev.

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Re:It will likely work for both by aichpvee · 2006-02-20 04:47 · Score: 4, Interesting

Even if they don't add Revolution-specific features it's a smart move on Nintendo's part as a lot of people are going to buy Revolution who don't own GameCube. Given that it is one of the "most anticipated games ever" it's a no brainer to release it when there are more people who are able to play it without buying a system that they'll never play another game on.

Though personally I wouldn't be getting too excited about it unless they've made some serious changes since last time they showed it off. So far it looks like more of the same for the ever more tired 3D Zelda formula. I can't wait till the first Revolution Zelda since Miyamoto has promised that Twilight Princess will be the last Zelda in this mold.

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The Farewell Tour II
Re:It will likely work for both by (A)*(B)!0_- · 2006-02-20 05:00 · Score: 2, Insightful

Nintendo is not adding any Revolution-specific features.
See - it's easy to just make statements without any proof to back them up. There's a difference between "they might be adding features" and "they are adding features." Speculation is fun but you should use language that reflects the fact that it is speculation.
Re:It will likely work for both by ZakuSage · 2006-02-20 05:17 · Score: 1

Or, you know, you could save yourself a good hundred+ dollars and just buy a GCN.
Re:It will likely work for both by KDR_11k · 2006-02-20 06:01 · Score: 1

http://mozlapunk.web-log.nl/log/4442762

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Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:It will likely work for both by SetupWeasel · 2006-02-20 06:20 · Score: 1

I believe it would be foolish for Nintendo not to delay Zelda until the Revolution launch.
Re:It will likely work for both by (A)*(B)!0_- · 2006-02-20 06:56 · Score: 1

Yup - you linked to a source that is linking to a source that is speculating. NOJ has not confirmed the speculation. So, we're back to my original point.
Re:It will likely work for both by billcopc · 2006-02-20 07:25 · Score: 1

I haven't bothered sifting through the rumours over the Revolution, but will it offer any sort of improvement over the original when running GC titles ? Sort of like some gameboy carts had enhanced graphics when used in a GBA or if anyone remembers the Super Game Boy for SNES.

I'd tend to think that Nintendo will build Revolution-exclusive content into the GC disc, to offer a little "bonus" for console buyers. For some people, this little extra would be enough to justify the hardware upgrade.

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Re:It will likely work for both by KDR_11k · 2006-02-20 08:16 · Score: 1

Except that speculating source has a reputation and isn't too likely to just pull something out of its ass and they're not just speculating, they're saying a source told them so (so they're either right or blatantly lying). Shortly after that a senior employee of Nintendo of America that was known for being loose-lipped left for unspecified reasons.

Meh, if you want substitute the tense in the original post with the appropriate ones for speculation.

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Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:It will likely work for both by Agent00Wang · 2006-02-20 08:17 · Score: 1

Ah yes, the new controller. If that thing is used to control Link's sword, I'm going to have to reserve this game exclusively for when I'm home by myself. My geekiness is not strong enough to do that in front of other people.

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Re:It will likely work for both by strikethree · 2006-02-20 10:13 · Score: 2, Interesting

"Though personally I wouldn't be getting too excited about it unless they've made some serious changes since last time they showed it off. So far it looks like more of the same for the ever more tired 3D Zelda formula. I can't wait till the first Revolution Zelda since Miyamoto has promised that Twilight Princess will be the last Zelda in this mold."

Ocarina of Time was simply epic. I can still go back and play it for hours on end. Sure, Majora's Mask wasn't as exciting, but if all they did was change the dungeons and such in Ocarina of Time, it would be a worthwhile game. I might add that my son is interested in having me buy an ocarina for him... I wonder where he got that idea from. :)

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"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
Re:It will likely work for both by Hatta · 2006-02-20 10:29 · Score: 1

If they wanted to lure people into buying the revolution, they'd be better off making the new Zelda revolution only, so that you have to buy the console to play the game. Backwards compatibility is a reason NOT to buy the revolution.

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Re:It will likely work for both by solidtransient · 2006-02-20 10:34 · Score: 2, Insightful

Backwards compatibility is a reason NOT to buy the revolution.
Really, I think you should say that backwards compatibility shouldn't be the only reason to buy a Revolution. I would rather it be backwards compatible than not. If it is, I can sell my GC for $40 and put that towards the new Zelda AND a Revolution.

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firestream.net
Re:It will likely work for both by Headcase88 · 2006-02-20 11:27 · Score: 1

" Its not a crappy reason if it can be played on a Revolution and use the new controller for new gameplay."

So?

Make the Gamecube version now and put the Revo features in a re-release of the game two years later that Nintendo mails to you for proof of ownership of 5 Revo games. Or something.

I hope they're using this time to make the game better for the GameCubem and not to add Revo functionality. Every time Nintendo announces another delay, people (or at least me) anticipate more dungeons. If they are truly using this time wisely, this could be a stellar game, but it'll be a big disappointement if it doesn't deliver.

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Re:It will likely work for both by PyroMosh · 2006-02-20 17:05 · Score: 1

You should try Ocarina of Time - Master Quest. Because it's exactly as you describe. Ocarina of time, just with "remixed" dungeons. Makes the game more fresh again.

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Re:It will likely work for both by KDR_11k · 2006-02-20 19:22 · Score: 1

Can't be worse than using an Eyetoy demo unit in a store.

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Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:It will likely work for both by rohlfinator · 2006-02-20 19:42 · Score: 1

Master Quest was fun, but I certainly wouldn't have wanted to pay $50 for it, even if it did have Twilight Princess's graphics. Hopefully TP is far more than a graphical remake of Ocarina of Time. The wolf element looks very promising, as does the horseback combat, if Nintendo uses them to their full potential.
Re:It will likely work for both by xtracto · 2006-02-20 23:40 · Score: 1

Except that speculating source has a reputation and isn't too likely to just pull something out of its ass and they're not just speculating, they're saying a source told them so...

Yeah, that sounds too much speculative to mee :)

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Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
Re:It will likely work for both by (A)*(B)!0_- · 2006-02-21 01:25 · Score: 1

"Except that speculating source has a reputation and isn't too likely to just pull something out of its ass and they're not just speculating, they're saying a source told them so (so they're either right or blatantly lying). Shortly after that a senior employee of Nintendo of America that was known for being loose-lipped left for unspecified reasons."
You're still not seeing the difference between a confirmed feature and rumor and speculation? Listen, it's important to be able to admit your mistake. You made a claim that is simply not true. While it is possible there is going to be extra Revolution functionality, it is not a sure thing. You stated it as though it were a sure thing. This was a mistake on your part. Admit this mistake and let's move on.
Re:It will likely work for both by Anonymous Coward · 2006-02-21 04:26 · Score: 0

Wow, I'll bet you are really popular at parties!

Pendantic prick.
Re:It will likely work for both by strikethree · 2006-02-21 05:46 · Score: 1

Sweet! My son was asking about this, but he wrote the title wrong and my searches yielded nothing. Thank you for the pointer to the correct info.

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"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen

Short timeline by the_demiurge · 2006-02-20 04:44 · Score: 2, Funny

The game was originally planned to be released in fall 2005.
Then the release got pushed back to April of 2006.
Now they say it's coming out fall 2006.

Maybe this will be like Half-Life 2, coming out almost exactly a year after it was supposed to.
Did Nintendo got their code stolen too?

Re:Short timeline by Joe+the+Lesser · 2006-02-20 04:54 · Score: 2, Insightful

Probably just the typical production-manager-has-no-clue-and-is-guesstimatin g syndrome.

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Re:Short timeline by Anonymous Coward · 2006-02-20 04:57 · Score: 0

This is a great example of the double standard that most gamers have. Release the game too soon? Booo! You guys messed it up! Delay the game because it's not finished? Booo! We want the game. A lose-lose situation especially considering this sort of behavior merely perpetuates the pressure to release a game NOW leading to more and more half-baked games that, given the right amount of time, could have been masterpieces.

There's also the reality that games merely take longer now. As complexity in the areas of control, graphics, and sound increase that means it takes longer. Developers don't have some sort of magical next-gen wand that they can wave at games to give them dynamic lighting or directional sound.

Be realistic. Part of being human is the ability to delay gratification. Stop acting like such a monkey, your opossable thumbs will have the game soon enough.
Re:Short timeline by tukkayoot · 2006-02-20 05:00 · Score: 4, Interesting

I think the official explanation is they realized as the game was nearing completion that it played too much like "The Ocarina of Time 2", so they went back to work on it to include some new gameplay to make the experience feel more fresh and original.
Re:Short timeline by Anonymous Coward · 2006-02-20 05:09 · Score: 0

Did Nintendo got their code stolen too?
That would suck having to recode their game from scratch if someone stole all their copies of the source code. That would be an amazing feat for the thief, though.
Re:Short timeline by jorenko · 2006-02-20 05:33 · Score: 1

I don't think there's very many people who are this thick anymore. Heck, didn't I hear about a game that the fans got delayed by petitioning the devs because they felt it should be better?
Re:Short timeline by TouchOfRed · 2006-02-20 06:01 · Score: 1

Half life's source code theft, contrary to popular belief, had NOTHING to do with the game being released a year later. For those who got a hold of the source, it was a half-botched upgrade of the current hl engine(which in turn had a very large portion of quake 1 code). The engine was not feature complete, and all they had was a bunch of tech demo levels(poor ones at that). They didnt have it done plain and simple, and the code theft was a convenient excuse. Nintendo on the other hand has failed to deliver a sub-par zelda game to date.
Re:Short timeline by Ironsides · 2006-02-20 06:08 · Score: 1

One year is not a long delay. Kingdom Hearts II was supposed to be out two years ago, it's finally coming out at the end of March (or someone is going to die). There's another game I heard of that kept getting delayed a year or so ago (not Duke Nukem Forever), the first delay was so that they could "take advantage of the all new ASCII graphics".

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Re:Short timeline by the_demiurge · 2006-02-20 06:16 · Score: 1

I know that wasn't the cause. That was the irony in my original statement: they are delaying the game because they don't have the game done yet.

The only problem I have with that is if they knew they weren't going to have the game done when they made the original release date. It seems like a lot of games set up an early release date that they know they can't fill just to build up press and hype.
Re:Short timeline by svip · 2006-02-20 06:57 · Score: 1

Heroes of Might and Magic 5, and that was because the multiplayer beta was near-unplayable.

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Re:Short timeline by antime · 2006-02-20 07:40 · Score: 1

Oh you know, they're probably just delaying it so it doesn't have to compete against their own titles in the crowded GC market.
Re:Short timeline by wheany · 2006-02-20 19:07 · Score: 1

ZING!
Re:Short timeline by steinnes · 2006-02-21 00:14 · Score: 1

Yeah, I remember checking out that leaked code, it was a mess. Rather funny how Valve managed to blame the delays on the source code theft, since the source code theft actually exposed how far behind schedule they were.
Re:Short timeline by Blublu · 2006-02-21 02:32 · Score: 1

A delayed Zelda game is good eventually, a rushed one will suck forever. Just look at Ocarina of Time vs. Wind Waker. See my point? Okay, Wind Waker doesn't really suck, but there was so much wasted potential there, it makes me sad.

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meh

I don't really mind... by oahazmatt · 2006-02-20 04:55 · Score: 5, Insightful

...During a time when consoles and games are both rushed out the door before they're ready, Nintendo is taking its time with their products. Sure it may aggravate some people, but only the hardcorest of the hardcore gamers.

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Re:I don't really mind... by Spleener12 · 2006-02-20 05:35 · Score: 3, Insightful

Yeah, better they take their time than release another Wind Waker (before you say anything, I had no problem with the graphics, but the game *desperately needed* at least 6 more months in the cooker to finish the obviously cut dungeon(s) and fix things like the horrendously flawed sailing system.)
Re:I don't really mind... by SetupWeasel · 2006-02-20 06:11 · Score: 1

Flawed sailing?

That was the best part of the game! That and the "Sploooooosh!" guy.
Re:I don't really mind... by merlin_jim · 2006-02-20 06:24 · Score: 1

During a time when consoles and games are both rushed out the door before they're ready, Nintendo is taking its time with their products. Sure it may aggravate some people, but only the hardcorest of the hardcore gamers.

I think you've got it backwards. The hardcore gamers understand the market and have been very disappointed with the dearth of quality release titles and are willing to wait. It's the pussies that don't have the balls to wait for a good game that bitch about it.

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Re:I don't really mind... by Malor · 2006-02-20 07:14 · Score: 1

No arguments about the cut dungeons, but out of curiosity, what did you think was wrong with the sailing?
Re:I don't really mind... by EggyToast · 2006-02-20 09:40 · Score: 3, Interesting

Sailing was fine. It was just that there was way too much of it in the early game. If they had shrunk the ocean so that the little teeny islands were closer together, it wouldn't've changed the game at all, but it would have meant less time holding one direction on the joystick for 5 minutes.
Even reducing the ocean by 15-20% would've made the game less tedious.
I personally really enjoyed the game, but I have no problem wishing that they had added the dungeons and gotten rid of the triforce hunt and reduced the vast, vast ocean.
Re:I don't really mind... by Chris+Burke · 2006-02-20 10:07 · Score: 1

Actually, my main problem with the sailing *was* the graphics. The cel-shading made the characters and buildings and so forth look great. The water though wasn't great it was *boring*. And there was so much of it. Staring at the flat blue oceans with the little inverted V crests was mind-numbing. Personally I would have loved something like Waverace's water, and I think it would have actually gone very well with the rest of the graphical style. Swirling around a vortex in a rain storm that actually -looked- rain-stormy would have been nice. But that's just me.

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The enemies of Democracy are
Re:I don't really mind... by amichalo · 2006-02-20 10:37 · Score: 1

Double True Jim

It takes a serious game to get the dedicated gamers to play. Like these guys: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7521044027 821122670

One thing that make a good game a legacy is that it is still fun to play _years_ after it has been released...take the Civilization series for instance.

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Re:I don't really mind... by grumbel · 2006-02-20 10:59 · Score: 1

First of the ocean was a lot of the time just solid blue, no texture, no difference in color, nada, plain solid blue-screen blue, that just doesn't look very interesting when you have to look at it for longer periouds of time. Secondly there was really nothing todo, steer in the direction you want, set wind in the right direction (watch always boring wind-spell animation) and wait. Would they have had any WaveRace-like water-dynamics or anything that actually made sailing fun it might have been interesting, but there wasn't nothing there.

PS: I never finished the game, got bored quite quickly by it, might have missed something interesting, but I kind of doubt it.
Re:I don't really mind... by Spleener12 · 2006-02-20 11:29 · Score: 3, Interesting

First off, it took forever to get anywhere. This itself would be bearable if it wasn't for the other two problems.
Second off, changing direction was a pain, you had to stop, pull out the Ocarina of Time^H^H^H^H^HWind Waker and play that song. EVERY TIME.
Third, because of the implementation of the sailing itself (the "sail" being an item you have to have out), you could do only two things while sailing: jump, and rotate the camera. Wooo. It would be much more bearable if you could pull out your bow and perform sail-by shootings, or pull out your telescope and sightsee (which is otherwise a completely useless item who functionality is actually duplicated by the camera you get later.) And the chance of coming back to a shark munching on your ass was just barely high enough to make getting up and getting something to eat/going to the bathroom a bad idea.
Re:I don't really mind... by AdmiralWeirdbeard · 2006-02-20 17:01 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Hrm, any chance you guys just... sucked at the sailing?
I mean, no offense or anything, but come on.

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Re:I don't really mind... by cgenman · 2006-02-20 17:10 · Score: 4, Interesting

The vast, vast ocean was to mask loading times.

Which is a fundamental problem, when it comes right down to it. If you load between islands, that means that each island needs to be far apart that you have a full loading time between them. You also need to have enough time that if the player turns back around, they don't see empty space but rather the island they were just going to. So you need twice a single island load's worth of time between islands. And remember that the island needs to be loaded by the time the player can get a reasonably good look at it, so that's another 1x there...

Now tripling your island's load times is bad enough, but the game frequently has you traveling halfway across the map to get to somewhere... As such your current island unloads, the next one loads, that one unloads, the one after that loads, etc, etc. For a reasonable jaunt around the map you may be hit with 21x the basic load time.

And so you have to give the player something to do during all of that time. Unfortunately, this means more random island encounters you must find, more wind to change the direction of, more underwater treasures to dredge up... More junk to do that slows down the travel further.

I probably would have bit the bullet, shrunk the ocean 80% or so, and added a load pause when the player was within a few feet of the shore. It would have broken immersion, but it would have been a heck of a lot less tedious.

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The ______ Agenda
Re:I don't really mind... by rohlfinator · 2006-02-20 19:58 · Score: 1

"The vast, vast ocean was to mask loading times."
Not entirely. Certainly the game did some loading during sailing, but it didn't need a full map square to load the next island. The warp song cutscene (which loaded a completely new area at "random") was much quicker than the journey between two islands by boat.

What the ocean did mask was draw distances. The game only draws the geometry for the islands, creatures, NPCs, guard towers, and submarines that are located in the same square on the map as the player. All other viewable islands are represented as 2D sprites, and the other geometry isn't drawn at all (which sometimes causes a jarring "pop-in" effect as you cross the border into a new sector).

So while Nintendo could have decreased the size of each square, thus shrinking sailing times, the draw distances would have become noticeably shorter. You wouldn't be able to see as far with the telescope, the islands would fade to grey at much smaller distances, and some guard towers and submarines may have appeared at closer range. It would have made some of the awkward visual tricks seem even more awkward.

While Nintendo probably could have reworked the engine to accomodate for this, the existing method is likely the most logical way to handle the game's geometry. My only complaint is the "pop-in" effect, which probably could have been implemented as a nicer looking "fade-in".
Re:I don't really mind... by Yer+Mom · 2006-02-20 23:23 · Score: 1

Holding one direction on the joystick?
I turned the boat until it was going the way I wanted, then let go of the stick.
Still could have done with things being a little closer together, though.

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Re:I don't really mind... by Schitzoflink · 2006-02-21 01:04 · Score: 1

VG Cats Take on Wind Waker

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In his immortal words... by wilgibson · 2006-02-20 04:56 · Score: 5, Insightful

"A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever." -Shigeru Miyamoto

Re:In his immortal words... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-02-20 06:09 · Score: 0

Althought it is not from Miyamoto, I prefer the phrase: A delayed game is delayed until it is released, a rushed game is rushed forever.
Re:In his immortal words... by Trifthen · 2006-02-20 11:18 · Score: 1

Immortal words or not, they are a logical fallacy. The intended implication is that a game delays are directly linked to improvements. As a previous poster mentioned, if that axiom were true, Duke Nukem Forever would logically be the best game ever. Of course this still remains to be seen, but I highly suspect such a statement would be false.

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Two Zelda Titles in 2006? by flying+gecko · 2006-02-20 04:56 · Score: 1

I remember hearing that a Zelda title might be a launch title for Revolution. I assume this would be different than Twilight Princess? Anyone have any information on this?

Re:Two Zelda Titles in 2006? by Bob+The+Fish · 2006-02-20 05:05 · Score: 1

There is this rumor: http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3146578.

If they are launching this November, it might make the Zelda game a lauch title of sorts. Maybe its a strategic move as much as it is a move to polish the part. Naturally, this is all crazy speculation on my part.
Re:Two Zelda Titles in 2006? by tukkayoot · 2006-02-20 05:20 · Score: 4, Insightful

I remember hearing that a Zelda title might be a launch title for Revolution. I assume this would be different than Twilight Princess? Anyone have any information on this?
This seems very unlikely to me. Two AAA Zelda games being released within 1 year of each other? It could happen, especially if Zelda Revolution is radically different from Twilight Princess and is being worked on by completely seperate development teams, but I would think that the Twilight Princess delay would at least somewhat push back the release of the next Zelda beyond the release of the Revolution, unless the Revolution is delayed into 2007 (I don't even want to think about that happening).
Twilight Princess will likely sate our Zelda craving for a while, so releasing a new Zelda game soon after almost seems like a not-good idea. I may still be striving to unlock everything and do all the miniquests when the Revolution comes out, so I won't be starved for a Zelda game the same way I'm anticipating the next real Mario platforming game (which the GameCube rather lacked -- I thought Sunshine was a let down), a Super Smash Brothers Melee, a Mario Party (the type of game that is just perfect for the Revolution) and a Metroid, which seems like a franchise that is evolving in such a way that it also is an ideal Revolution title. Give me all or most of these games at our near launch, and I'll be perfectly content to wait a year for a new, awesome Zelda game.

Damn them! by Anonymous Coward · 2006-02-20 04:56 · Score: 3, Funny

Damn them for not releasing a half finished game like Wind Waker, which everyone adored from start to finish!

Re:Damn them! by LordKronos · 2006-02-20 08:05 · Score: 4, Insightful

Please. Wind Waker was an awesome game. They did an incredible job with the graphics, and an even better job with the game engine and game play. However, a bunch of thick skulled people apparently were feeling a little insecure about their masculinity, and thought they couldn't play something with cartoon graphics (even though the fact that you are portraying a kid in the game fits well with the kid-cartoon style graphics) and some fun/creative puzzle solving (yes...not EVERY "puzzle" requires chopping someone's head off or doing a hooker) made them feely a little too much like girly men.

As a result, Nintendo had to scrap a brand new rendering engine which had just been written from the ground up for Wind Waker. The process of rewriting it from scratch AGAIN probably accounts for a significant portion of the delay of this title.

But OOOOOHHHHHHHHHH!!!! This ones going to have realistic look graphics. What a totally new concept. Not like we've ever seen that before. Heck, the coders could take a dump in the box and everyone would love it as long the poo was photorealistic.
Re:Damn them! by CastrTroy · 2006-02-20 08:15 · Score: 2, Interesting

I think the problem he's refering to is that when you go and hunt for the triforce pieces, there's no dungeons. You just go in and get them. Extemely boring and repetitive. I don't know if this was the way Nintendo wanted it, or whether it got cut short and they had to release it without the dungeons. Either way, it felt like it was missing a whole lot of levels. Had they added actual dungeons to find the triforce pieces, the game would have been about 3 time as long though. Other than that, I have to say I really enjoyed the game.

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Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Re:Damn them! by LordKronos · 2006-02-20 08:34 · Score: 1

I seem to remember several dungeons in the game. Were the triforce piece themselves hidden in the dungeons? No. But the dungeons were an integral part of the game. Just because they did things a little untraditional (made the triforce play a smaller part of the overall game and made the other milestones much bigger) you are going to complain that there's no dungeons? If you take the time to explore all the details of the game, it's PLENTY long, too.
Re:Damn them! by Anonymous Coward · 2006-02-20 09:09 · Score: 1, Insightful

If you take the time to explore all the details of the game, it's PLENTY long, too.

Thats part of the problem with many gamers behavior. If you set up a giant world, filled it with fun things to do, and just happen to put the finish line a little too close to the start line, then a number of gamers will make a mad dash to a finish then cry that the game was too short and boring.

On the other hand, if you force everyone to go through each of your fun little things, a number of other gamers start sobbing about how long and drawn out it was, and how the game was so linear, when they would have wanted to wander off the beaten path and find cool things on the side.

You can't appease both groups simultaneously, so Nintendo decided that there were more gamers in one group than the other and made a choice that they thought would offend the fewest number of gamers.
Re:Damn them! by Anonymous Coward · 2006-02-20 09:52 · Score: 0

(yes...not EVERY "puzzle" requires chopping someone's head off or doing a hooker)

Has any game in the last five years featured either of these as necessary puzzle solutions?
Re:Damn them! by Chris+Burke · 2006-02-20 10:17 · Score: 2, Insightful

I pretty much agree with you, and I loved the game, but it is also pretty clear that the entire Triforce search aspect was tacked on to increase the number of hours in the game. Remove the necessary sailing around to the islands, and then to the locations where you grab the Triforce pieces, and you've probably knocked 20% of the length of the game off.

Not that you can't spend a lot of time trying to find everything if you so choose, and not that a shorter game is really that bad. Beyond Good and Evil was fairly short, and I think it was better than Wind Waker in pretty much every way. Forcing the game to be longer by adding in a non-optional time-sink was a bad decision, imho.

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The enemies of Democracy are
Re:Damn them! by rohlfinator · 2006-02-20 11:09 · Score: 5, Insightful

"However, a bunch of thick skulled people apparently were feeling a little insecure about their masculinity, and thought they couldn't play something with cartoon graphics..."
Right. Everyone who finds any fault with Wind Waker is insecure about their masculinity. My favorite game of the generation is frickin' Pikmin, and I was underwhelmed with Wind Waker after a bit. The graphics were not its biggest problem.
"...and some fun/creative puzzle solving (yes...not EVERY "puzzle" requires chopping someone's head off or doing a hooker) made them feely a little too much like girly men."
Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask had fun/creative puzzle solving. Wind Waker's puzzles were mostly rehashes of the puzzles from those two games, with a few exceptions. Nothing in WW even compares to the Water Temples in either of the N64 Zeldas, or the Forest Temple from OoT. Dungeons in WW felt like a series of independent rooms, rather than single coherent structures. Wind Waker also had too few dungeons, and the (arguably) most boring one was repeated twice. While Majora's Mask had only four dungeons, even the first one was quite challenging. The trading sequence was much more interesting in OoT, and the NPC interactions were better in MM, compared to WW's "sail all over the planet to talk to the same three guys over and over". Finally, WW's combat was painfully simple (I didn't die once on my first playthrough).

As a disclaimer: I don't hate Wind Waker. I highly enjoyed the game, and it's a lot better than most third-person adventures. But there were noticeable gameplay flaws with the game, and it was a bit of a letdown after the excellence of OoT and MM. To suggest that anyone who finds fault with it is a "graphics whore" is just plain shortsighted.
Re:Damn them! by masterzora · 2006-02-20 12:12 · Score: 1

(Pre-note: I am a rabid Zelda fan, and I thoroughly enjoyed WW through and through.)
Remember, the dev team wanted to improve the triforce piece hunt, but they rushed it out the door. I, for one, am glad that this game is being delayed if it means that it will be the best it can be.

--
Remember, open source is free as in speech, not free as in bear.
Re:Damn them! by lucas+teh+geek · 2006-02-20 13:01 · Score: 1

i think you're almost right, though id think the reason nintendo chose the route they did is that one group of gamers are complaining because they're idiots who dont make full use of the game they have (waaaa! its too short! i dont wanna play all the extra optional content), the other group are complaining about something outside of their control (ie. the game forcing you to do every side quest)

--
TIAEAE!
Re:Damn them! by lucas+teh+geek · 2006-02-20 13:07 · Score: 1

nope, and more gamers today whinge that "games just arent fun any more" than did 5 years ago ;)

--
TIAEAE!
Re:Damn them! by homb · 2006-02-20 13:27 · Score: 1

Thats part of the problem with many gamers behavior. If you set up a giant world, filled it with fun things to do, and just happen to put the finish line a little too close to the start line, then a number of gamers will make a mad dash to a finish then cry that the game was too short and boring.

The trick to solving this, ladies and gentlemen, is to show the gamer what she can do.

Simply put, have a quest log that shows the main and optional quests. Show the gamer what she's missing if she's going so fast that by the last battle she's got 15 unsolved optional quests. Next time around, she'll be back to try them out and will never bitch about the game being short or boring.

Example of the above: Knights of the Old Republic.
Re:Damn them! by Macgrrl · 2006-02-20 14:05 · Score: 1

Actually, the biggest problem I had with WindWaker was with the PAL conversion for the Australia release messed up the timer for some of the 'race' events. This problem isn't specific to WindWaker though, it is common to many NTSC->PAL converted games where there is a small speed up in the internal timer on the game, making it nearly impossible to complete 'against the clock' events. One day I'll beat that bloody penguin in Mario 64. And let's not mention Sphinx and the obstacle course there, where an absolutely flawless performance was required to beat the first race, let alone any of the later ones.

This issues has been widely discussed on Australian game forums, and is not merely an example of incompetence on my behalf. Failing all the jumping games, now THAT is an example of personal incompetence.

--
Sara
Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
Re:Damn them! by earthbound+kid · 2006-02-20 15:11 · Score: 1

Example of the above: The "happiness book" in Majora's Mask (I forget the actual name for it). It let you know that you were supposed to help Anju and Kaffe, but you already knew that beating the game was actually just a matter of solving the canyon dungeon. So, sometimes you did the dungeons, and sometimes you helped people. It was the best Zelda.
Re:Damn them! by Billly+Gates · 2006-02-21 05:18 · Score: 1

I disagree I purchased a gamecube just for the game.

It made me lose my confidence in the zelda genre. The gameplay was too hard and awkward and the puzzles were not as challenging. All the levels seemed teh same after awhile and it got boring. It was missing alot of familiar weapons and items and the rest were not that good. I thought it was lame that it was harder to die even though you get killed alot easier.

--
http://saveie6.com/

I for one... by MorderVonAllem · 2006-02-20 04:57 · Score: 3, Insightful

...am glad it will be delayed. Usually this means that the game will be that much better. Going by Nintendo's track record, it will be true.

Re:I for one... by Stormwatch · 2006-02-20 05:39 · Score: 1

[[ insert obligatory Duke Nukem Forever joke here ]]

--
Circumcision is child abuse.

Sigh. by RyoShin · 2006-02-20 05:01 · Score: 0

I read about this yesterday. Crushed my little Nintendo-fanboy heart.

How could they do this? I was okay with a four or five month delay, as it meant they were just polishing it off.

But pushing it back to the fall? That's just insane. That means I'll have had the game on reserve for around a year when it finally comes out. And for what? More polishing?

I don't think so. I, and many gamers I talked to, agreed that this a sneeky launch game tactic. They are pushing Twilight Princess back to the fall so it can be released alongside the Revolution. Even if it doesn't have any Revolution control features (despite the rumor), having a Zelda game as a launch title would be a huge boost to sales. All they'd need to do is slap a sticker or something on it that states that it can be played in both the Gamecube AND the Revolution. (If we're right, that also means the Revolution has a fall launch date.)

I'm still going to buy it and a Revolution (if I have enough money at the time for both), but this just ticks me off.

Might as well rename it Legend of Zelda: Duke Nukem Forever.

The only thing worse than this might be that we had to hear about it through SpikeTV. (At least it wasn't G4.)

Sigh.

Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-02-20 05:14 · Score: 0

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.

I'm a fanboy, too, and I'd rather see Twilight Princess a Revolution exclusive. Why? Because it will make the decision to upgrade systems that much easier.

Right now I'm playing some of the best looking/playing games that the Gamecube has to offer. There are still some that I haven't finished and that will keep me busy for about a year. I'd love to get a Revolution on launch, but if the new Zelda game can be played on the Gamecube, I can wait for a price cut and pick up the Revolution 9 months after launch.
Re:Sigh. by steveo777 · 2006-02-20 05:16 · Score: 4, Insightful

Honestly, this is nothing compared to the wait of Ocarina of Time. That game was pushed back again and again for over a year. What we got ended up being one of the best gaming experiences of all time. I'm not one to get too angry with Nintendo about these kind of gripes as long as they deliver a solid product... and Nintendo almost always does (Mario Party 26, I'm looking at you here).
Honestly, if they're delaying the game, then it's probably 10% P.R., 90% Game/Technical. Zelda has always (yup, even Wind Waker) been worth the wait.
So, Chin-up RyoShin! Cloudy skies are going to clear up, put on a happy face!
Turn that frown, up-side-down!

--
This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
Re:Sigh. by RyoShin · 2006-02-20 05:25 · Score: 1

Oh, I agree that a solid product is worth the wait, but I just don't like being told one date, only to have them push it back so far. Release dates that can't be certain shouldn't be stated in the first place.

Reminds me of Half-life 2.
Re:Sigh. by LordVader717 · 2006-02-20 06:54 · Score: 1

Well, Nintendo never gave any release date anyway. Many release dates you hear are merely predictions by outsiders. Nintendo never said it would be out in 2005, and when it was getting to september, and people asked, they just said it wouldn't be out in 2005.
Re:Sigh. by wheany · 2006-02-20 19:26 · Score: 1

(Mario Party 26, I'm looking at you here)

Oh, you're blowing it way out of proportion, there's only like 17 Mario Party games, tops!
Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-02-21 03:28 · Score: 0

God, I hope it's not as boring as half life 2.

Give me more portable, 2d Zelda goodness! by antifoidulus · 2006-02-20 05:01 · Score: 3, Interesting

Seriously, while I will eventually buy Twilight Princess, I really pine for a new Zelda game on the DS. Minish Cap was the best single player experience I have had in a long, long time!

--
Monstar L

Re:Give me more portable, 2d Zelda goodness! by Anonymous Coward · 2006-02-20 08:51 · Score: 0

You, sir, have obviously lost possession of your Minish Cap.

Caught a mistake. by Xerxus · 2006-02-20 05:09 · Score: 1

From the article: "File-Amie also said that the game would be a Gamecube title and that there were still no plans to turn it into a game for Nintendo's next-gen Revolution console." His real name is Reginald "Reggie" Fils-Aime. Interesting that the article didn't mess his name up the first time. Anyway, if Nintendo/Shigeru Miyamoto/Eiji Aonuma needs more time to work and polish the game, then that's even better. After Zelda is released, the Gamecube will be pretty much dead anyways.

Re:Caught a mistake. by Jedyte · 2006-02-20 20:04 · Score: 1

Actually it's Fils-Aimé
Re:Caught a mistake. by BenjyD · 2006-02-20 22:29 · Score: 1

the Gamecube will be pretty much dead anyways

Aha! Due to lack of money at the time, I still have *so* many great Gamecube games to play. Pikmin 1+2, Metroid Prime 1, Tales of Symphonia, Fire Emblem, Battalion Wars, the list is huge and they're mostly cheap and second hand now :-)

NOOOOOOO!!!! by Avacar · 2006-02-20 05:16 · Score: 0, Offtopic

KHAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNN!! Wait, that's not right. I mean: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I can wait by solidtransient · 2006-02-20 05:17 · Score: 1

I recently picked up the following Zelta titles: Oracle of Ages Oracle of Seasons The Minish Cap Link to the Past for GBA I think that will keep me busy until this fall.

--
firestream.net

Misleading Headline - "Again?" by HarvardFrankenstein · 2006-02-20 05:20 · Score: 4, Insightful

The headline is misleading, saying that the game has been delayed "again". Saying it was delayed again implies that they had delayed it, set a new date, and then delayed it one more time. They never set a date after the first delay. A better headline would have been "Delayed Zelda Arrives in Fall".

Re:Misleading Headline - "Again?" by rmccann · 2006-02-20 05:38 · Score: 3, Informative

It was meant to come out for Christmas 2005. It was delayed to about April 2006. It has now been delayed *again*.
Re:Misleading Headline - "Again?" by Xerxus · 2006-02-20 05:43 · Score: 1, Informative

The first delay: "Consequently, we're announcing a new global launch in 2006, after the conclusion of this fiscal year (March 31). We'll provide a specific date at a later point in time. While this may come as a disappointment to many eager fans, it will absolutely enrich the game and make it a multi-million seller." The original statements just said it was going to be released at a date after April. People were hoping that it would be released in April, but a date was never given.
Re:Misleading Headline - "Again?" by jeffasselin · 2006-02-20 05:48 · Score: 2, Insightful

No, they said it would be pushed back "after March 2006". They never gave a date beyond that, and the April date was simple speculation.

--
If he explores all forms and substances Straight homeward to their symbol-essences; He shall not die.
Re:Misleading Headline - "Again?" by CuBeFReNZy · 2006-02-20 12:04 · Score: 1

Yes, exactly what I was thinking. And I actually thought it was assumed that the game was coming out this November... but now this is confirmation.

Miyamoto speaks... by Taulin · 2006-02-20 05:36 · Score: 0, Offtopic

In a related article, Miyamoto says they have finished all the weapons and are now just making the game fun.

Obligatory Zelda quote by Spy+der+Mann · 2006-02-20 05:37 · Score: 4, Funny

Crushed my little Nintendo-fanboy heart. How could they do this?

Well excuuuuuse me princess! ^_^

Re:Obligatory Mario quote by RyoShin · 2006-02-20 05:56 · Score: 1

Sorry, but the princess is in another castle.

Depends by phorm · 2006-02-20 05:57 · Score: 1

Not all games that are delayed are good in the end. I'll save my praise or curses for whenever the game actually makes release.

Re:Depends by AuMatar · 2006-02-20 06:19 · Score: 1

True, but not taking the time needed to polish a game just so you can hit a release date pretty much garuntees suckage. No zelda has completely disappointed yet, I'll give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt.

--
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?

Backwards compatibility by Anonymous Coward · 2006-02-20 07:20 · Score: 0

I've heard several people claim that they would only buy a gamecube for Twilight Princess. If the Revolution wasn't backwards compatibile, I'd say that they were shoting themselves by releasing it so late.
If Twilight Princess truly does have revolution controller functionality, and there aren't a whole lot of AAA launch titles for the revo, then you can really consider this a launch title, especially if the price point is right for the revo itself.
I mean, if you didn't already have a cube, why would you buy the cube to play it on if you could by the revolution for a good price point? Seems like a great way to launch a system.

DNF by kai.chan · 2006-02-20 07:26 · Score: 1

"A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever."

Then Duke Nukem Forever is going to be one hell of a game!

Two words... by JoeLinux · 2006-02-20 07:32 · Score: 1

Dai Katana.

Re:Two words... by YodaToad · 2006-02-20 08:53 · Score: 1

Actually it's one word, Daikatana.
Re:Two words... by Echnin · 2006-02-20 09:51 · Score: 1

And it's still WRONG because when you combine the kanji for "ookii" and "katana" you should use the on-yomi for BOTH kanji; it thus becomes "daitou" (perhaps "taitou"[1]). Yes, this is a Japanese (and Chinese[2]) word. If they absolutely wanted to use the word "katana" it should have been "oogatana" (or ookatana?); combining on-yomi and kun-yomi just sounds awkward.
[1]WWWJDIC gives "taitou" as the main reading (http://jp.msmobiles.com/cgi-bin/wwwjdic?1MDJtaito u), but my IME (Microsoft IME 2002) only converts the "daitou" reading.
[2]In Mandarin it's pronounced Guan Dao according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwan_dao)
Footnotes in a Slashdot post might seem a bit extreme, but I need to back up my claims after all.

--
Lalala
Re:Two words... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-02-20 11:04 · Score: 0

Guan Dao is a halberd-like weapon. Look at the picture. It has nothing to do with Dai Dao.

Not a "3d Zelda"? by argent · 2006-02-20 07:43 · Score: 1

So you think they should go back to a 2d top- or side- scrolling ortho view for Zelda Revolution, or do you have something else in mind?

Re:Not a "3d Zelda"? by KDR_11k · 2006-02-20 19:24 · Score: 2, Insightful

That'd be nice, all that 3d stuff is hurting the games.

--
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:Not a "3d Zelda"? by argent · 2006-02-21 00:23 · Score: 1

Well, I can appreciate it, but Zelda is a technology demonstrator for Nintendo as well as a game and I can't see them going back to 2d.
Re:Not a "3d Zelda"? by aichpvee · 2006-02-21 01:44 · Score: 1

I'd love to see some more 2D Zeldas. The Gameboy ones have been great.

But for Revolution I think they really need to address the ungracefully aging combat system, which was the biggest gripe I had with Wild Waker. It needs to be more dynamic as the lock-on system feels incredibly canned. Enemies all wait their turn to get beat up (with maybe an occasional jab) once you lock-on to one of their buddies. There are a lot of games doing much more engaging combat systems without being more difficult to control and I don't see why Nintendo can't work that into a Zelda game.

Maybe Twilight Princess is going to address a lot of these problems, but from the video I've seen it really looks like Wind Waker with a different art style, some pretty spotty lighting and textures, and the stiffest walk animation ever seen in a Nintendo game. Which is why I'm a lot more excited about the next handheld Zelda than I am about Twilight Princess.

--
The Farewell Tour II

Re:Obligatory Mario quote by Deadguy2322 · 2006-02-20 08:49 · Score: 1

Sadly proving that the Nintendo fanboys can't get a girl.

--
Check out my foes list to see who is so retarded that they can't use the signature line!!!

Not True by hellfire · 2006-02-20 12:10 · Score: 1

Not true, in a sense.

First of all, no firm date has been set ever, it's primarily been estimated dates but they did once say they planned on releasing it for Christmas. That was their first intended date, because it would be in time for the last game rush before the Revolution came out. The second estimate was spring, now it's fall. The articles all imply that these are promises, but really they are only estimates, there are no promises. However, if you let things slide too long and you let the estimates slide too long, estimates to rabid hungry gamers are as good as promises.

Now the revolution is planned for spring, and this is planned to be a Gamecube release. I'll still buy it and enjoy it, but now I'm worried if they let it slip this far that maybe they will decide to make it a revolution title. Gamecube owners in the US aren't as upgrade happy as PS and Xbox fans, but we've seen people promise titles for one platform and then change their minds because the change made more sense later than it does now.

--

"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"

Fanboys by etherealmuse · 2006-02-20 12:51 · Score: 0

When did this fanboy thing start anyways? I've been seeing it for about 2 years now. It used to be that everyone loved Nintendo, now when I post on a board about my nintendophilic tendancies I get labeled as a fanboy and scoffed at... The revolution will feature backwards compatibility with all GCN titles simply because the architecture did not change so drastically. Additionally it will feature ports or wireless recievers for gamecube controllers anyway so you can play the new zelda with GCN controls or (if my dreams come true) the new revolution controller.

--
"Say you love us like i know you will and that our deaths won't be in vain or in the name of gasoline"

The sailing got old... by 7Prime · 2006-02-20 12:54 · Score: 2, Insightful

It was really cool for the first few hours, and then after a while, it became a total chore: play the wind song, wait 20 seconds for the wind song to play, point in the right direction, put down controller and wait 5-10 minutes, pull up to island. After a while, when you get that song of gails, or whatever the one is that gives you warp spots, it becomes a little faster, but it's also one more song you have to play. After doing this 40-50 times, it gets old really fast, especially in a series where you traditionally have to go back and forth across the map just to figure out what you're supposed to do next, it really killed the joy of adventure.

I don't mind having to go all the way across the map all the time, from one task to another, that's what the series is based on. But give me some terrain, give me something to do, something to look at while I'm doing it. It's difficult to make endless blue ocean, "exciting" or even interesting after you've done it for 10 hours.

Another problem was the abuse of the song playing system. In Ocarina and Majora, the system was near perfect: you only needed to play a song every once in a while, there was something "quick and simple" about it. I found myself having to play the wind changing song, like, every 2 minutes while I was searching out my next objective in WW, and the sequence of playing + animations just seemed to take forever.

The dungeons were on par with the rest of the series, especially the last two regular dungeons, the storyline was fun, the puzzles were great. But I hated the saling, which made me not want to explore, which really sapped a lot of the enjoyment out of the game for me.

--
Multiplayer Gaming (defined): Sitting around, discussing single-player games with my friends, at the bar.

Taito? by tepples · 2006-02-20 13:09 · Score: 1

it thus becomes "daitou" (perhaps "taitou"[1])

Problem is that that name's taken; you'll have to bust a move to see why.

Re:Obligatory Mario quote by patio11 · 2006-02-20 15:03 · Score: 1

There will always be Samus.

--
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.

Total rumor here... by SighKoPath · 2006-02-20 18:27 · Score: 1

Was talking to the clerk in GameStop today. He mentioned something about two versions of Zelda coming...

Version one being a Gamecube release, and version two being a Revolution release. He speculated that version two will be the same game, but with optimizations for playing with the Revolution's controller.

Where to GameStop employees get this info? Is it even accurate? Only time will tell, I guess.

Re:Total rumor here... by Bobsledboy · 2006-02-20 22:16 · Score: 2, Insightful

Here's another rumor I heard.

People that work at game stores are full of shit. They definitely don't have any industry connections. Treat their insider knowledge the same as the idiots from Best Buy/Walmart and you'll go far.
Re:Total rumor here... by SighKoPath · 2006-02-21 08:03 · Score: 1

Yep, that's what I figured. It's an interesting speculation, though.

Conspiracy? by Schitzoflink · 2006-02-21 00:44 · Score: 1

Hrm, Maybe they let the Code get stolen, so they would have an excuse....tricky tricky

--
Mr. T carries a postage stamp in his wallet at all times on the back is a list of all the fools he doesn't pity

To all the "sailing sucked" by Schitzoflink · 2006-02-21 01:19 · Score: 1

This is the part of the game where you get your preferred drug of choice (at the time mine was Ganja) and enjoy the moment, or your could make a drinking game out of it, everytime you have to play x song, take a shot

--
Mr. T carries a postage stamp in his wallet at all times on the back is a list of all the fools he doesn't pity

Parents spelling by Anonymous Coward · 2006-02-21 01:58 · Score: 0

Your really need to work on your spelling, its the small mistakes I am talking about, like, mispelling state as sate.

Re:Parents spelling by tukkayoot · 2006-02-21 06:53 · Score: 1

Sate is spelled correctly. I did however misspell the word separate. Or are "your" just trying to be ironic?

As far as I know... by kyle+(in+stereo) · 2006-02-21 08:11 · Score: 1

There is no official word from Nintendo about its delay. All of this information comes from an interview on G4 between Reggie and one of the goobers from Judgement Day. I could be wrong, but from what I remember (only watched it twice) there was never a point in the segment where Zelda's release was brought up with Reggie specifically stating that it has been delayed. Also, people are not considering the localization delay between a Japanese and US release. It could still be released on target in Japan and there will be the standard few months between a local launch. Im holding my breath.

--
---space.is.the.place---

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Next Zelda Title Delayed Again

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