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Attorney General Investigates Music Price Fixing

An anonymous reader writes "The Guardian is reporting that the US Attorney General has launched an investigation into whether or not record labels are engaged in price fixing of music downloads. From the article: 'The department of justice inquiry centers on the activities of the four largest record labels: EMI, Sony BMG, Universal and Warner Music. Subpoenas are believed to have been issued to all parties, with federal officials understood to be focusing on whether the companies have been colluding to keep the price of downloads artificially high.'"

257 comments

  1. Forgive me for plugging my site, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Another pretty good article on this subject can be found at this site

    1. Re:Forgive me for plugging my site, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Zonk, is that you?

    2. Re:Forgive me for plugging my site, but by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 0, Redundant

      That's nothing! I bet you didn't know the US AG is investigating the record labels for price fixing in digital downloads!!!

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
  2. Parent exposes duplicate link, but anyway... by Wayne_Knight · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Is this surprising?

    Everyone is greedy to a point. Some are just able to carry their greed to the point of complete selfishness and totally ignore the high percentage of people who have a hard time just keeping a roof over their heads.

    What the heck will it take? Evolution of the human species? I always think back to those old Star Trek episodes where they land on some planet where the inhabitants laugh kindly at Earth's culture because they have learned to live without greed, take care of everyone, and actually enjoy sex rather than codify it.

    I don't know why I want to write this... mod at your leisure. But before you bite my head off, I want to make sure all the future commenters out there read this very key quote:
    "Music companies make more money when they sell a song on iTunes than when they sell a CD," Mr Jobs said last year. "If they want to raise prices, it's because they're greedy. If the price goes up, people turn back to piracy - and everybody loses."
    Hopefully that will keep those crazy anti-Apple fanboys at bay.
    1. Re:Parent exposes duplicate link, but anyway... by SubcomandanteTorta · · Score: 3, Interesting

      BACK to piracy? Jesus, he must be living in a reality field all on his own. Gotta keep up the appearances for the record execs, I guess. It's like trying to unexplode the first nuclear bomb. He'd have better luck building a time machine and assassinating Hitler. Or trying to re-imprison Yog Sothoth back in the Pentagon before he escaped to Iraq and helped open the Seventh Gate. As long as music is commercialized in its present form, there are people who want more than they can afford, there will be piracy, theft, whatever we are calling it now. It doesn't matter how much it costs.

    2. Re:Parent exposes duplicate link, but anyway... by Nicolasd · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You're kinda right... Except some people (like me) who don't listen to music that much are pretty happy with using exclusively the ITMS. When I found out about it I stopped downloading illegal music as I think the pricing is ok... If the pricing goes up I'll go back to limewire and the rest...

    3. Re:Parent exposes duplicate link, but anyway... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You are so preoccupied with this boogy-man ("greed") that you've overlooked the root of the issue.

      Has the music industry achieved financial success through voluntary means only, or have they exploited the coercive powers of government as their means to financial success?

      I think we all know the answer. Let's deal with an actual, identifiable problem, which is government and its intervention in the media business. "Greed" cannot be dealt with objectively; it is a matter of personal opinion. The difference between coercion and voluntary association, on the other hand, is objective by human nature.

    4. Re:Parent exposes duplicate link, but anyway... by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What are you suggesting, total socialism? I think "greed" is really the over-used moniker jealous anti-capitalists have given to personal success.

      It's become a cliche to hear someone criticize human nature and say we need to "evolve" to some sort of ideal social position they have in their head. It's not going to happen--we're the way we are now specifically because of evolution. Survival of the fittest breeds creatures that learn to take care of themselves to increase the chances of spreading their genes.

      Referencing old Star Trek episodes certainly doesn't do much to bolster the idea behind your post.

      --
      "Sufferin' succotash."
    5. Re:Parent exposes duplicate link, but anyway... by spun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Genes can code for societal behavior, too. If I help 3 of my close relatives breed, I have just passed on my genes even if I don't breed myself. Look at ants and bees. Most of them never breed. If genes only code for selfish behavior, how'd that happen?

      Cooperative societies are more successfull than purely competative ones. According to recent economic research, most people value fairness and justice over personal gain. This is because cooperation is a more efficient strategy. Placing a high value on personal selfishness and greed is counter-productive. It encourages people who by nature might be cooperative to be selfish, harming all of society.

      You can try to get the rest of us to agree with your "greed is good" theory, but most people won't. We like cooperation. We value justice and fairness over greed and selfishness. We think people who are selfish and greedy suck, and we see no reason to cooperate with people like that and give them the benefits of our cooperative society. Greedy people should go live by themselves and be entirely self sufficent without being a drain on the rest of us.

      The 19th century called, it wants its failed theory of social darwinism back.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    6. Re:Parent exposes duplicate link, but anyway... by KingVance · · Score: 1

      Agreed. I have made essentially that same comment numerous times.

    7. Re:Parent exposes duplicate link, but anyway... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If genes only code for selfish behavior, how'd that happen?

      A species' genome serves the species, not individuals of that species. It's amazing how few people grok that.

    8. Re:Parent exposes duplicate link, but anyway... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Look at ants and bees. Most of them never breed. If genes only code for selfish behavior, how'd that happen?

      Because of the way that sex is determined in ants, a female ant's sister is more more closely related to the ant than its daughter would be. Thus it is actually is selfish from a genetic point-of-view for a worker ant to get the queen to lay/hatch more workers. The same is also true of bees and wasps. See the Wikipedia article.

      Termites, on the other hand, are a different story.

      And yes, this is very much off-topic.


      Peter

    9. Re:Parent exposes duplicate link, but anyway... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure about suggesting "Total Socialism", but our wonderful system of capitalism has a fundamental weakness - the natural consequence of success will be that large companies have more say than the people actually running the country.

      A corporate entity's influence is now far greater than one vote, even ignoring the individual votes of its members.

      Usually a scare-story propagated by anti-capitalists, this has sadly come to the point where companies can coerce lawmakers into whatever silly state of affairs they fancy.

      A long time ago, when the owners of music rights tried to make radio listeners pay for each track they listened to, governments denied them.

      They told them to develop a business model and to charge the broadcasters. Now the same sort of preposterous idea is being suggested and they're getting their way. Doesn't that tell us something?

    10. Re:Parent exposes duplicate link, but anyway... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If I help 3 of my close relatives breed,"

      Then that is just gross!! You from West Virginia?

  3. Music industry answer: by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Keeping the prices high? Are you kidding? If you think 0.99 per song is high you ain't seen nothing yet baby. As soon as we can get people to stop using iTunes and a MS based system instead with no Steve Jobs to protect consumers, and his bottomline, we will really be ramping up the price!

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Music industry answer: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I always think of how it can cost 99 cents to download a full song from iTunes, which is a reasonable price considering a music CD costs at most that much on average, but then a ringtone of the same song, a 15 second or so clip, costs 3 dollars to download from the service provider of the phone. I should at least get the whole song on my phone for that much moola.

    2. Re:Music industry answer: by Znork · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "I always think of how it can cost 99 cents to download a full song from iTunes... but then a ringtone... costs 3 dollars"

      That's because p2p networks still keeps prices on downloads down.

      Pricing on copyrighted material isnt set relative to costs, it's set relative to available capital for purchases. If the consumers get more money, then the prices will rise, regardless of actual costs. The only 'competition' there is is illicit copying.

      The DOJ suing the labels for 'collusion to keep prices up' is rather ironic and just shows how far from reality the concept of IP has gone.

      To the attorney general: Yes, of course there is price fixing and collusion to keep the price up. It's in the damn code of law. Look under the heading 'digital millenium copyright act' in your own bookshelf and you'll find all the evidence you need. 'Keeping the prices up' was the whole point of it.

    3. Re:Music industry answer: by m50d · · Score: 1

      Lol, yeah, that's why he's charging $.20 more than anyone else and putting it straight into Apple's coffers.

      --
      I am trolling
    4. Re:Music industry answer: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Thats because when you buy a ringtone, you in fact license it for playing it in public. When you buy a song, you license it for playing it in limited groups.

    5. Re:Music industry answer: by masklinn · · Score: 1

      Get a modern phone that can use mp3 files as ringtones (my Nokia 6230i can)

      --
      "The way we can tell it's C# instead of Haskell is because it's nine lines instead of two." -- wadler
    6. Re:Music industry answer: by Animaether · · Score: 2, Informative

      Most phones can play MP3 files now.. heck, they could 2 years ago. The problem is that the phone operators deliberately disable functionality to, for example, copy files to the device or download them off the web if it has a browser. So you're forced to go through the provider or a third party 'ringtone' store such as Ringtone King, Jamba!, etc. in the EU (same company, different name, practically a monopoly) from which the provider gets a kickback.

      Doesn't mean you can't get a phone which you -can- copy files with, though.. my $80 prepaid Sagem does it, and a $400 S/E w800i does it. Plenty of choice if you actually go and look for it.

    7. Re:Music industry answer: by shmlco · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You have that backwards. The other services are charging 79 cents in an attempt to steal market share from iTMS. Apple has mind share, market share, the iPod, iTunes on Mac and Windows, and an integrated service. Everyone else is lowballing price to compete.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    8. Re:Music industry answer: by shoptroll · · Score: 1

      Good point. I was really wondering what they were talking about in terms of price fixing. I thought 99c was what they finally figured people were willing to pay to download a song rather than steal it. Basically it was the compromise point between corporate profit and user willingness. The only thing I'm not entirely sure about is the price of buying an album wholesale though. I'm pretty sure everything I've looked at on iTunes is cheaper to buy the album, but I'm wondering if any exceptions exist.

      If cell phone companies actually empowered normal consumers to hook up their phones to a computer ringtone prices would plummet, IMHO. But, I'm not sure if this inquiry is looking at cell phone providers as well as the usual suspects.

      --
      Insert Sig Here
    9. Re:Music industry answer: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great! Now I squirted milk out of my nose! It is entirely thanks to MS that we have such inexpensive hardware. If it were up to Apple and their ilk (HW + OS bundled like back in the 70s) we'd be paying 10x what we pay now for our computers, and none of them would be able to run software except that which we bought from our hardware vendors -- so the software would be astronomically expensive, like it was is the 70s. Don't ascribe to altruism (the "cheap" $0.99 per download) that which is explainable by simple reality (there were a bunch of services at that price point when Apple came along).

    10. Re:Music industry answer: by dodobh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Great! Now I squirted milk out of my nose! It is entirely thanks to MS that we have such inexpensive hardware

      That made me choke on my sandwich! There used to be this comapny named Compaq which reverse engineered the IBM BIOS and created a clone market. MS merely rode on this boom.

      Microsft marketing wins again!

      --
      I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
    11. Re:Music industry answer: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And don't forget to mention that your "collection" of ring tones is going to be smaller compared to your music collection. The units sold will be less so the price is set higher.

    12. Re:Music industry answer: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what an idiotic response, of course $.99 is ridiculous for the price of a song, if you bought every song on an album, you'd be paying more than you would for the actual album, and the songs wouldn't be the same quality as the CD, they didn't have to print the booklets for the CD, they didn't have the cost of manufacturing the CD or case, and they didn't have to pay trucks to ship it out to various stores around the globe for that sale. How are they even justifying a $.99 download cost? At that price I'll stick to "stealing" my music just as the music industry has been stealing money from its clients.

    13. Re:Music industry answer: by Excelsior · · Score: 1

      The problem is that the phone operators deliberately disable functionality to, for example, copy files to the device or download them off the web if it has a browser.

      Very true. Danger makes the Hiptop platform, which T-Mobile branded the Sidekick. By many reports, Danger developed the capability to take an mp3 attached to an email and use it as a ringtone. T-Mobile required Danger to remove this capability, so they could make money off of ringtones.

    14. Re:Music industry answer: by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Many phones that can play MP3s (or any form of audio) can be connected to a PC via USB and (in some cases) special software. It's then possible to transfer files directly to the phone. It's not as convenient, but at least you can use your existing recordings rather than whatever company X tells you is appropriate. Although, if your time is worth a lot, it would probably be cheaper to just download clips rather than spending time trimming, converting, downsampling, and learning how to use some hacker's software (usually) to transfer the files. Which is why you'd want to do it at work, obviously.

    15. Re:Music industry answer: by CaptainZapp · · Score: 1
      The problem is that the phone operators deliberately disable functionality to, for example, copy files to the device or download them off the web if it has a browser.

      Actually that really seems to be a US problem. I've never had a phone that disabled me to do anything, with exception of bluetoothing DRMd stuff to another phone, like games.

      Methinks, or at least it's my distinct impression, that the US cellular carriers didn't quite get it yet that we're no more in the 50s with total Über-controll of the system by Ma-Bell. You really don't get a lot of this shit in Europe, save for SIM locks, but those are usually attached to extremely cheap pre-paid deals.

      --
      ich bin der musikant

      mit taschenrechner in der hand

      kraftwerk

    16. Re:Music industry answer: by dangitman · · Score: 1
      but then a ringtone of the same song, a 15 second or so clip, costs 3 dollars to download from the service provider of the phone.

      That's because most ringtone purchases are charged to the phone bill. So, some kid hears some new ringtone - and he doesn't even have to steal the parents' credit card - just dial this number, charge it to the phone account.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    17. Re:Music industry answer: by darkhitman · · Score: 1

      Microsoft ripped off Compaq?

      This explains why an OS costs $200, and a high-level program to run on that OS (Photoshop or MXFlash) costs $1000. Or $7,000 (Maya).

      Like Microsoft or not, and I know /. does not (Linux & Apple sections but no MS secion, wonder why), but MS's monopoly keeps the prices of its OSes reasonable.

      --
      Tell me something...it's still "We, the people"... right?
    18. Re:Music industry answer: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I purchased a Samsung a920, and it has no problem copying stuff to it. I can email it to myself, grab it off a website from the phone, or the easiest way, slap it on the 512MB flash card that the phone has. It takes AAC, WAV and MP3 formats, and I can even put a full set of songs on there, and use the stereo headphones to listen to it. If you're having problems with your phone, sounds like you need either a new phone, or a new provider.

    19. Re:Music industry answer: by dodobh · · Score: 1

      A monopoly keeping its prices reasonable? Surely you jest!

      Remember, MS has lied and cheated) its way to the top. Closed file formats, hidden APIs, breaking competitive applications, participating in deals, and then walking out with all the information but without closing the deal.....

      If there was real competiton, the price of the OS would be much closer to a few dollars.

      --
      I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
    20. Re:Music industry answer: by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 1

      There used to be this comapny named Compaq which reverse engineered the IBM BIOS and created a clone market

      This was only viable for Compaq because IBM decided to buy PC-DOS instead of writing it, and BG made sure his agreement with IBM was non-exclusive.

      If IBM had kept it all in-house, Compaq would have had a much larger hill to climb.

      (Jumping into time machine) If Compaq had been forced to climb that hill, we might be better off today. The IBM PC architecture would've been less ubiquitous, and the other companies like Tandy, Osbourne, and Apple would've lasted long enough to release real competition to the IBM PC. Everyone and his brother jumped on the IBM bandwagon because they could.

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    21. Re:Music industry answer: by dodobh · · Score: 1

      The point was about hardware being cheap. Not about quality.

      Microsoft benefited from the standard hardware running their OS. Not the other way round,.

      --
      I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
    22. Re:Music industry answer: by bobcote · · Score: 1

      The Wall Street Journal had an article that mentioned why people will pay more for a ring tone than for the whole song. I believe they called it perceived value. You use the ring tone to tell the world something about yourself. The whole song is just for you. Of course, I think paying $3.00 for part of a Black Eyed Peas song that has been used in a million commercials says a whole lot about someone.

      Personally, I'll use the default ring on my phone and save the money. I guess that says I'm a cheap SOB

    23. Re:Music industry answer: by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      People who don't know history are often berated for their ignorance.

      At best, Compaq is responsible for the current PC market because they reverse-engineered the PC BIOS so third parties could create PC hardware.

      What Microsoft did in the 80s is known as "Riding coattails" -- they were an insignificant company that managed to land an extremely lucrative contract.

      Look at it this way. Did Yahoo bring about the Internet? Only in the egotistical non-reality where Al Gore helped.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    24. Re:Music industry answer: by JahToasted · · Score: 1
      But you could also say compaq benefitted from a standard OS running on their hardware.

      Not that I think that MS did anything groundbreaking, they just happened to be in the right place when IBM screwed up.

  4. And if convicted... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...they have to pay a $50 fine and publish a press release including the words "We are vewwy, vewwy sowwy." Rinse, repeat 10 years later...

    1. Re:And if convicted... by Bananatree3 · · Score: 1

      I really wish it was more along the lines of 731 million dollars, which hynix memory is paying for its price fixing.

    2. Re:And if convicted... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I Imagine the main difference is that Hynix are not American. They probably went to University with the RIAA execs, got to cut your alumni some breaks.

    3. Re:And if convicted... by zotz · · Score: 1

      How about if you are found guilty of price fixing something to which you own copyrights or patents to, you lose those copyright and patent protections. As well as the other penalties.

      all the best,

      drew

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
    4. Re:And if convicted... by hackstraw · · Score: 2, Insightful


      Yes, but music will outlive these people. Art and entertainment is a human adventure, it has value beyond dollars and sense. Part of the reason why marijuana is illegal in the US is a racial slur and detainment of musicians http://www.google.com/search?q=marijuana+illegal+j azz+musicians

      It cracks me up that when I go to a concert, the law and everybody knows what we do there, but they mostly tolerate it. They bust a token number of people for stupid stuff, but _let_ 99.999% of us do what we want, simply because everybody wants to have the time that we do even though they "can't".

      Music is as much of a part of the human experience as fire. Some sociologists theorize that division of labor and society came together so that we could hang out around a fire at night and get drunk, dance, and participate in music. But people that cannot provide these things but are good at power and money continually try to get more money and emphasize their power by suppressing us, but we always win. "The kids will dance and shake their bones. It's all too clear were on our own."

      The sad thing is that even some of the musicians are getting into the greed thing. Do a search on Bob Weir and archive.org with their soundboard releases of Grateful Dead shows. John Barlow, the cofounder of EFF, http://www.eff.org/ says "Its bad karma to go against deadheads".

      I just woke up and am hung over from drinking and listening to music last night, sorry for the incoherence in this post.

      The good thing is that music will live and we will still do it with or without a "music industry". The bad thing is that money and power and greed will also live.

  5. The parable of the two farmers and the customer by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Once upon a time, there were two farmers. One farmer sold apples and other sold pears. Now, if you know anything about these two fruits, it's that they are very similar. Each farmer only grew that one crop on his land because the soil and weather conditions didn't allow for the raising of the other fruit crop. At the market, though, customers could buy either one easily. In fact, the prices were within cents of each other.

    "There must be some kind of collusion," the customer thought to himself, "some kind of price fixing that is artificially keeping the prices of these apples and pears high." So he sued them both and the pear farmer went bankrupt fighting the suit in court. The apple farmer managed to settle out of court with the customer, but not without incurring a substantial cost to himself.

    Then pears went off the market and the price of apples went sky-high. "A-ha!" said the customer, "I was right all along. The farmers must have kept the prices relatively equal in order to maximize their profits. Now that there is no reason for the apple farmer to keep the prices even with pears, he has raised it substantially!" The customer was satisfied with himself for having been clever enough to discover the nefarious plot.

    The apple farmer, back on his farm, sat at the drawing table and muttered to himself about his terrible luck. "I am losing a lot of business to these high prices. If only I weren't forced to raise them so high to fight that worthless lawsuit. If only... If only..." "The pear farmer and I don't even sell the same produce..."

    1. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by Aggrav8d · · Score: 5, Funny

      But we're talking about music and music here. Your parable and the attorney general's actions are like apples and oranges.

    2. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by SIInudeity · · Score: 1

      Dont be silly and compare the music giants to poor apple/pear farmers. Music labels are the devil.

    3. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      The music industry is solely responsible for the awesome quality of music that is available to everyone, and without them, this music would never see the light of day. I don't even want to think about how we would all survive without these conglomerates!

    4. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 0

      Music labels are the devil.

      And who was the first apple salesman? Are you catching on now?

    5. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by value_added · · Score: 1

      But we're talking about music and music here. Your parable and the attorney general's actions are like apples and oranges.

      You think you're confused. I'm still working on the one (fruit) farmer saying "The pear farmer and I don't even sell the same produce ..."

    6. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by DDLKermit007 · · Score: 1

      Difference here is the studios have begun messing with prices. Like say the Verizon $2.50 songs that last 60 days + cost of downloading the data. Jobs wants to keep the price at 99 cents (which is in all honesty is still too expensive for digital distribution) and the industry has been trieing to gang up and allow "varriable priceing" which would likely even up being closer to $2.50 that Verizon pays and you'd never see a song below 99 cents that way thats "unpopular."

    7. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by Wes+Janson · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How about a new parable that actually fits?

      Once upon a time there were a couple record companies. Through the years, their product was the creation, publishing, and distribution of music on various analog media. As technology progressed, they were able to condense even more songs into a smaller product, at an even lower cost to themselves.

      One day, a new technology came along that allowed customers to take songs and give them amongst each other, for free. This new technology allowed instantaneous and essentially free distribution. At first the companies attempted to stop customers by making their activities and technologies illegal. Slowly, however, they began to consider adopting this new method of distribution themselves.

      But instead of reducing their prices to reflect the change in cost to deliver the product to market, these companies decided to increase their costs, in the name of profitability and growth and investors. When customers saw that the companies were overcharging them, they began to deliberately turn away, continuing to take the product, but without paying for it. In turn, the companies decided to increase their prices further, to make a greater profit off of the shrinking market. But the more they increased the cost, the fewer customers they seemed to have...

    8. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by AuMatar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Now if you want to write a real analogy

      *The 2 farmers would be members of the FPAA (fruit producers association of america)
      *They would be actively working together through the FPAA to sue their users who make illegal copies through planting seeds
      *They would be suing people for planting with no real proof they actually planted
      *They would have a long history of losing antitrust cases dating back to the 60s
      *The FPAA would actively be working to strongarm stores to sell their fruit at higher prices.
      *The FPAA would have a long history of screwing over their fruit producers (artists)

      In this case is antitrust worth looking into? Hell fucking yes.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    9. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by hunterx11 · · Score: 1

      username delivers

      --
      English is easier said than done.
    10. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by Kingofearth · · Score: 5, Funny

      How about a new parable that actually fits?

      What did you expect from BadAnalogyGuy?

    11. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So how come insurance premiums continue to rise event with a decline in claims?

    12. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by larry+bagina · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You're right, it is worth looking into. Unfortunately, it was the federal gov't that set up farm protection schemes far worse than you're envisioning (like paying for the destruction of crops in order to keep prices artificially high).

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    13. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      But he only sold one of them and that at cost. I wouldn't hire a salesman like that.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    14. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 1

      Sure, but look at the market landscape today. Sure the original owner may have a significant marketshare, but I think that you'd have to agree that the salesman in question really succeeded with his franchise business.

    15. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try selling the same product as a music label...

    16. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by Shadowlore · · Score: 1
      But instead of reducing their prices to reflect the change in cost to deliver the product to market, these companies decided to increase their costs, in the name of profitability and growth and investors. When customers saw that the companies were overcharging them, they began to deliberately turn away, continuing to take the product, but without paying for it. In turn, the companies decided to increase their prices further, to make a greater profit off of the shrinking market. But the more they increased the cost, the fewer customers they seemed to have...


      Wait, when did we start talking about the US Postal Service?
      --
      My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
    17. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by pipingguy · · Score: 4, Interesting


      How about a new parable that actually fits?

      Rewind a bit...

      "Pop" music depends on hype. I, for one, do not think that the screaming teenage girls in the 50's phenomenon was entirely "spontaneous". That was staged and aggressively promoted. Thus, pop music hysteria was born, and what better pent-up group of emotions than pre-adolescent, innocent females would there be to manipulate?

    18. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by Hao+Wu · · Score: 1
      The most basic economics course teaches that inproved technology warrants change in the marketplace.


      It may be that music and other creative content is obsolete as an industry. So be it. It is not government's job to subsidize or sustain artificial markets - except, perhaps, for "essential" and emergency services.

      --
      I suggest you read Slashdot
    19. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny enough, that's pretty much the big corporate ag market right now.

    20. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot the part about a major vendor surreptitiously adding malware.

    21. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by hackstraw · · Score: 1

      what better pent-up group of emotions than pre-adolescent, innocent females would there be to manipulate?

      My how times have changed....

      "I'm not that innocent"

      -- Britney Spears

    22. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by droptone · · Score: 1

      You should notice how they treat digital music differently from physical copies. When you go to a store like BestBuy, you find that the popular and new releases are priced below their unpopular counterparts. This is countrary to how they would like to treat digital music, which does raise some questions about how they think of digital distribution.

      --
      Every post I make begins with the assumption P=~P.
    23. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by despisethesun · · Score: 1

      Bear in mind that his Slashdot username is "BadAnalogyGuy". I mean, he's honest at least, but that doesn't make it any better.

      --
      This poo is cold.
    24. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about, once upon a time there were these people who sold a luxury item for whatever price the market would bear. People flocked to buy this completely unnecessary product. Then some whiners complained about how much this product cost and how they were getting screwed by the companies that supplied it and how awful the product was. Instead of not spending their money and therefore not getting screwed or producing this product themselves they just kept on crying. WAAAA WAAAA WAAAA, evil company this and evil company that and tried to justify stealing the product. WTF, nobody needs music. If you don't like the price don't consume the product. That's right, even if you download the product for free you send the message that the product is in demand. So the companies see that and assume, correctly, that their product has value and should be sold for the price they have always sold it for. Why change when millions of people are telling you they like what you make? When sales AND illegal downloads drop THEN the market will force a change. The only message you send when you P2P you music instead of buying it is that you want what they make. Oh yeah, and you are a cheap bastard that believes he is entitled to free music because the company that supplies it is greedy, screwing the artist, killing puppies, or whatever.

    25. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Which reminds me, AC, You're Beautiful, I'm N Luv, and I'd hate to Be Without You. You make me so hot Everytime We Touch. I'm not sure what Temperature exactly, but you should Check On It. Also, I'm finna get me some Grillz, Yo (Excuse Me Miss), even though they make you So Sick.

    26. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by sr180 · · Score: 1
      *They would be actively working together through the FPAA to sue their users who make illegal copies through planting seeds
      *They would be suing people for planting with no real proof they actually planted
      *They would have a long history of losing antitrust cases dating back to the 60s

      And this is different to what they have been doing with Genetically Modified Seedlings exactly how? Farmers can be sued for growing genetically modified crops when their crops have been poluted by GM pollens from OTHER GM Crops.

      --
      In Soviet Russia the insensitive clod is YOU!
    27. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh my god. I hate it when people do that. It's really only a matter of Time til someone else does it again though.

    28. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by SIInudeity · · Score: 1

      Hehe, is that why they call you badanalogy guy?

    29. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by gsslay · · Score: 1
      But instead of reducing their prices to reflect the change in cost to deliver the product to market, these companies decided to increase their costs, in the name of profitability and growth and investors. When customers saw that the companies were overcharging them, they began to deliberately turn away, continuing to take the product, but without paying for it. In turn, the companies decided to increase their prices further, to make a greater profit off of the shrinking market. But the more they increased the cost, the fewer customers they seemed to have...

      It's right about here that your little tale falls apart, isn't it? By my reckoning in real terms music is the cheapest it's ever been. 20 years ago a CD could cost £15. Now it's rare to find one over that price. How much have other prices gone up in that same period? So where exactly are these increasing prices you speak of? You're not making them up are you??

      Of course when you compare that with getting the music for nothing the prices are steep. But that would be the case in every industry and every product. People don't take the music industry's product for free because they thing they are being over-charged. They do it because people like something for nothing. As long as they think they can get away with it and can invent self-serving justifications for it.

      And far from the market shrinking, it's expanding. Not a day seems to go by without another company offering online music sales. Online sales are booming, never been better. It would appear, amazingly, that the music industry know their market better than some 'Insightful' post on slashdot full of made up facts.

    30. Re:The parable of the two farmers and the customer by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      And what about the judges who have found the music industry guilty of criminal collusion on a number of occasions? Are they just laymen while you aren't?

      --
      It's been a long time.
  6. can the record labels justify the expense? by spacepimp · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I've been curious why it costs more to buy an entire album via download, than it does to buy the cd... IIRC it cost the lables more to make a tape, than to produce a cd, and the prices for cd were greater than tapes. Now without having to produce a pyhsical tangible disc or tape, the costs are higher still, witrhout packaging and liner notes, and printing costs. smells like price gouging to me.

    1. Re:can the record labels justify the expense? by opqdonut · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually the cost of the physical medium is really small, they get them really cheap (I'd say $0.20 off the top of my head) when mass-produced. The largest part of the price is marketing, studio personnel and rent, and of course record company margins.

      --
      yes > /dev/dsp
    2. Re:can the record labels justify the expense? by Firehed · · Score: 1

      I buy CD-Rs at 13c a disc. I'd imagine they cost considerably less than 20c to the suits. Unless that means disc, case, inserts, and quite possibly distribution.

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    3. Re:can the record labels justify the expense? by FidelCatsro · · Score: 2, Funny
      I would imagine it breaks down something like this
      • Media & case: 0.10
      • Artist fees: As little as we can
      • Production: 0.75
      • marketing: 2.00
      • Ivory back scratcher: 5.00
      --
      The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
    4. Re:can the record labels justify the expense? by Fred_A · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem isn't the cost of the medium (i.e. manufacture), it's transport, storage, handling, etc.

      Those are the expensive bits, as it is with most manufactured products nowadays.

      And since with music (as opposed to, say, a vacuum cleaner) you can actually do without the physical part and the associated overheads, it does indeed make sense to lower the price accordingly when you just transfer the data.

      This is equally valid for the sales (or "licensing") of software downloaded online.

      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
    5. Re:can the record labels justify the expense? by Dread+Pirate+Shanks · · Score: 1

      What about the cost of bandwidth? Servers to distribute the product? Clients to facilitate the downloads? I certainly see your point that since the customer is getting less material, it should cost less, but maybe those costs really do justify the convenice you get from downloading.

    6. Re:can the record labels justify the expense? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's easy to justify for downloads. People are probably less likely to buy whole albums (just a guess) so you need to raise the prices of the individual songs if you want to keep making the same amount of money as you were with CDs. It's not a great justification if you're a consumer, but it works great if you're a record exec.

    7. Re:can the record labels justify the expense? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well thank you !

      You just told us that the price-difference between an old-style vinyl (when they where still pressed in quantities) and a CD was purely artificial ....

      Another reason to investigate (I hope :-) )

    8. Re:can the record labels justify the expense? by rohan972 · · Score: 1

      They are replacing manufacturing (per copy) with encoding (once?), storage in warehouse with storage on a server, trucks with bandwidth and packaging (for each copy) with "clients to facilitate the downloads" (write once + maintain)

      There is no way the cost to deliver a download service should equal cost of physical delivery, IMO

    9. Re:can the record labels justify the expense? by piggy · · Score: 1

      Those are valid expenses -- for Apple or Napster or whoever is providing the tracks for download. The fact remains that there is a large per track cost that the labels are charging the distributors.

      The labels are people with very little sense of Economics, but very good Marketing and Business skills. They stated that they want the prices to become untethered to Apple's $0.99 per track, and that that would cause more popular tracks to become more expensive. That is, as supply remains constant and demand rises, one would reasonably expect prices to rise, too. The problem is that supply does NOT remain constant in a download distribution economy -- at least not the supply of goods (tracks), although bandwidth -- again, the distributor's costs, not the label's -- remains fixed.

    10. Re:can the record labels justify the expense? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seems kinda obvious to me ... simple marketing really. The record company DOESN'T want you to download music but want you to use their existing, bloated infrastructure to buy a PHYSICAL disc where they perceive that they have control. (Think of 50-60 yr. old men in suits in a boardroom, it'll help!)

      So to discourage you from downloading music (which they were forced into) they jackup the price so that you say, 'Ah hell, I'll just go to Walmart and pick up the CD'.

      As for justifying the expense, it's business in a free market economy. You price your product to whatever the market will bear. The only ones you have to justify to is the board of directors (remember those guys in the suits?).

    11. Re:can the record labels justify the expense? by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 1

      Also add to this the profit margin of the retailer. Does anyone know what percentage is added by retailers?

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    12. Re:can the record labels justify the expense? by zotz · · Score: 1

      [As for justifying the expense, it's business in a free market economy. You price your product to whatever the market will bear.]

      It is not a free market economy when we are talking copyrights and patents. Then it is a market of protected government granted monopolies.

      all the best,

      drew

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
    13. Re:can the record labels justify the expense? by Seanasy · · Score: 1

      I believe they usually get CDs at a 50% discount.

    14. Re:can the record labels justify the expense? by porcupine8 · · Score: 1
      I've been curious why it costs more to buy an entire album via download, than it does to buy the cd...

      It does? Most albums on iTunes cost $9.99. CDs cost around $15 on average, sometimes as much as $20 for a single disc. Older ones do cost less, and stores often put them on sale for $10-12. But there's still no way I'd say the average price of a new CD is less than $10. I'm not saying online music isn't overpriced - more that CDs are MORE overpriced, and I'm amazed this lawsuit was never brought in regards to them.

      --
      Warning: Apple/Nintendo fangirl. Likes her electronics cute & cuddly. May be rabid.
    15. Re:can the record labels justify the expense? by CastrTroy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, I find this to be the complete opposite. The first week an album comes out, it can usually be found for $7-$13. However, after that the price usually rises. Albums that have been on the shelf for a couple months sell for around $15, and stuff that's a few years old sells for $20. It's kind of odd that as more copies sell, that the price goes up. But it's probably based on warehousing and decreased demand making it cost more to store it on the shelf.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    16. Re:can the record labels justify the expense? by blitziod · · Score: 1

      the major cost is distribution and retail sales space. Shipping a cd costs more than making one. Counting inventories, restocking displays, profits for truckers, retailers, etc all drive the price up for bricks and mortor sales. Look at allofmp3.com if you want to see the cost of distribution( not production) of digital music. They sell songs for a penny or two, make an insane profit I bet , and have no cost to produce or market the artists. That said production of an albumn is a few thousand dollars. Marketing an artist( esp the money paid to get the song on the radio) is extremely expensive.

      --
      The only way to bust a doper--is when you yourself become a smoker!
  7. Dupe :-( by xiphoris · · Score: 4, Informative
    1. Re:Dupe :-( by Quirk · · Score: 3, Funny
      "...so why don't we all go to Digg and set up camp at the new epicenter for geek news on the net?"

      You go ahead and get things started, we'll, uhm.... be along, you know, after awhile; but whatever you do don't come back here cause we'll all be gone.

      bye

      --
      "Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
      Cohen
    2. Re:Dupe :-( by pomo+monster · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It needs anonymous posting, and it needs a nested view sorted by score. Still, good enough. Goodbye Slashdot!

    3. Re:Dupe :-( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think I speak for a majority in here when I say: F$CK OFF. Why are us nerds gathered here? Because of the comments, the users, and the occasional dupe keep us coming back for more. If you like digg, GO THERE. Leave us alone. If it's sooooo cool to go to digg, why aren't more of us over there? We know about it, we've seen it, we've given it a chance. But it just doesn't have what it takes to be 'news for nerds'. Digg's comments are bland at best, the summaries are way too short, and it just generally doesn't appeal to us slashdot readers. This will probably be modded troll (hence the AC) but I just get so freakin' tired of being told that digg is greater, newer, faster, updated quicker, makes julian fries! Honestly, it's not better. It isn't organized better, it isn't commented on better. I feel dumber for having gone there. I personally didn't learn a damn thing from their posters, and felt like I was back at high school arguing over which fast food joint was better. Digg isn't doing it for us, so back off. Quit trolling here. Go back to Digg, and come back when you hit puberty so you can join in an intelligent discussion. Oh, and AJAX isn't all that hot. Get over yourself.

    4. Re:Dupe :-( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Digg's comment system is not truly threaded. Digg has a reply button only on top-level comments. There is no such thing as a reply to a reply. It's like they're actively trying to discourage intelligent discourse.

    5. Re:Dupe :-( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      bye, moron.

      -N. Portman

    6. Re:Dupe :-( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out, tit bucket

    7. Re:Dupe :-( by webagogue · · Score: 2, Informative

      You mean Digg? Lucky day, pal! Digg just introduced those features.

      --

      Knowledge is valuable. Ignorance is dangerous. Censorship is unacceptable. http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=10
    8. Re:Dupe :-( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See ya, Slashdot didn't really need a Porno Monster...

      Umm.. I mean, Pomo monster

    9. Re:Dupe :-( by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      BSD... err... Slashdot is dying

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    10. Re:Dupe :-( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who the hell needs anonymous posting?

  8. About time by TJ_Phazerhacki · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I'm not really sure how relavent the old style labels are to the modern music industry. Strip away the hype and the fact remains that more and more artists are going independant, either producing or marketing their music on their own terms.

    Sorry guys, but leeching off the works of others is old hat - time to find really, genuinely good acts, or put up "for Sale" signs.

    --
    Physics is nothing like religion. If it was, we'd have an easier time trying to raise money!
    1. Re:About time by Loconut1389 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      labels -are- useful in some/many aspects. They do hunt for talent, provide resources for recording, orchestrate tours and publicity, and provide financial backing of upstart groups.

      A group of talented individuals can certainly gather their own resources and make their own connections and get their own loans, but the odds of a bank financing a fledgeling music group or being able to get a booking at a big venue or get you airtime on a hundred stations by making one phonecall are pretty slim. Admittedly, the labels have connections and can get things done more easily and if the label is willing to back the singer, then the people that deal with the studio and band will trust their judgement.

      An artist can certainly get their music recorded in a garage or even a studio if theyve got a few bucks, and release it on the net- but try getting your song available on iTunes. There are songs from real, popular bands that aren't on iTunes, why should I be able to find a song by Joe Schmoe's Band? Getting a booking for a little band is tough too. You pretty much have to have someone whose heard your music recommend/suggest you, which makes a chicken and egg deal for a new group. Labels get your foot in the door because they trust you.

    2. Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a musician, I don't trust the major labels, regardless of whatever perceived 'trust' they may have with whatever 'established' industry people I'm supposed to give a shit about. Fuck them.

      The industry is going through a major change, and things are being shaken up all across the board. Radio no longer matters anywhere near as much as it once did. All the stuff the labels have entrenched themselves in is being dropped for newer, more user friendly ideas.

      Clearing up something:
      Getting your song on iTunes is as easy as selling a couple of CDs on CDbaby. They work out the details with Apple, and you're on. Simple as that. No bullshit requiring major label involvement. Not even a single gig, if you can convince a few friends or family members to buy your album on CDbaby. No chicken and egg problem.

      So suck it, label apologist. The new music industry is being built, with or without your support!

    3. Re:About time by roye · · Score: 1

      I agree with you on radio play and booking large venues, but getting your music on iTunes seems to be relatively simple. The nice guys at CD Baby will take care of it for you- through their digital distrobution page. Not affiliated with CD Baby, just a fan of their service and of several bands discovered through them.

    4. Re:About time by porcupine8 · · Score: 1
      It's not all that hard for indie artists to get on iTunes. The reason some established acts aren't on there is entirely their own (or their label's) decision.

      I agree that the labels do serve a purpose - but maybe the whole point is that it's time to find other means to that end. If radio stations weren't 90% owned by one of a couple huge corporations, I bet it'd be easier for indies to get airplay. The whole system needs a reboot. Maybe between online music downloads, podcasts, and satellite radio (I know, they're owned too, but the individual stations seem to have MUCH more freedom than, say, a Clear Channel station), that can happen.

      --
      Warning: Apple/Nintendo fangirl. Likes her electronics cute & cuddly. May be rabid.
    5. Re:About time by Loconut1389 · · Score: 1

      Didn't know about CDbaby, maybe I'll have to get some of my own stuff on there.

      I'm not an apologist for the labels. I think the whole purchasing/distrobution system is outmoded and in danger of destroying itself, but certain aspects of the label's existence really can help make band happen, even with a group like CDbaby around to get you published.

    6. Re:About time by liquidsin · · Score: 1

      the big labels are only useful because they have wedged themselves into that position. a big label can get you a booking at a huge venue or play on hundreds of radio stations because big venues and corporate-owned radio station chains will only deal with big labels. the barrier for entry into home recording is low - a few thousand dollars will get you all the mics and pc hardware / software you need to make a good sounding record (provided you have *talent*) but without signing away your soul on a major label, you can't book yourself into anything much bigger than a bar, and you can't get airplay on anything other than college radio. it's a good start, and it could end up getting you noticed by a big label, but until then you'll only ever be a bar band with college radio airplay.

      --
      do not read this line twice.
  9. *Cough* by Dr.+Sorenson · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They are 10 years late and investigating the wrong medium. I don't see anything wrong with 99 cents per song, my issues were the $21 for a CD with one decent song.

    1. Re:*Cough* by slashdot.org · · Score: 5, Interesting

      They are 10 years late and investigating the wrong medium. I don't see anything wrong with 99 cents per song, my issues were the $21 for a CD with one decent song.

      I do see something wrong with $0.99/song. I happen to like to get the entire album. I don't thing I've ever paid $21 for a CD. Maybe $17 at the most. But on average I'd say $14.-

      So that bottoms out at about nearly the same price. What I don't understand is why the music industry believes that they can pocket all the money when selling a product that [1] is inferior in sound quality (unless iTunes sells lossless compression now, I've done a-b tests and I think most people will be able to hear the difference in quality on a high-end audio system) [2] is inferior in flexibility (original CDs didn't have any form of DRM) [3] is less complete (where's the booklet with lyrics?) [4] requires special software to purchase/playback and finally [5] costs them a LOT less to distribute.

      The last one is really the kicker. I _know_ what distribution and production of media costs, and it's pretty clear that the music industry is behaving like a bunch of greedy bastards. If they are lucky they'll get 50% of what you pay for a CD after the cost of distribution, production and storage. Yet when they sell stuff online they want to pick up 100% of what normally goes to third parties. In other words, if I pay $10 for a CD, about half (or more) goes to the cost of media (CD, case & booklet), distribution, storage and retail cost. All this is pretty much replaced by a simple website and server, which will cost peanuts on a per-download basis. So the music industry wants to absorb all of the $5 or whatever that was saved by going online.

      I guess that's fine with me. I won't download music illegaly. But I won't buy it either. If I _really_ want something, I'll get a CD. Give me reasonable prices for a reasonable product and we'll talk. Don't come bitching about sales going down and quit your fucking government manipulation.

      The bands that are taking things in their own hands and realizing that recording and distributing online is something they can finance themselves should be applauded and supported in any way possible.

    2. Re:*Cough* by Ritz_Just_Ritz · · Score: 1

      Ten years ago, Apple and Microsoft weren't feuding with the labels and weren't throwing bucketloads of $$$ at politicians to "level the playing field."

      I think the labels see their doom, but they just don't understand how to make a legitimate go of things as the old style payola model is being stripped away and artists have other distribution outlets for their content. So I suspect you'll see them continue to dig in their heels and make increasingly desperate moves to maintain the status quo...because they just don't know how to do it any other way.

    3. Re:*Cough* by jacksonj04 · · Score: 1

      More irritating is that the infrastructure and technology is there to distribute all that you just mentioned, but nobody uses it. iTunes supports a lossless codec (which can be DRMed to at least make a token gesture), it supports e-inserts, it supports cover art, the only issue left is the DRM. There's already a database of who bought what, so hopefully when someone comes up with a sensible DRM mechanism to prevent copying but still allow usage it can all be converted.

      Why hasn't it been used yet? Because the record studios want to try make people pay more for it and buy physical copies. I can't comprehend this, since you could charge the same for physical and digital, and send exactly the same content, and digital would *still* make more profit.

      --
      How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
    4. Re:*Cough* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't thing I've ever paid $21 for a CD. Maybe $17 at the most. But on average I'd say $14.-

      So that bottoms out at about nearly the same price.


      I guess that's true if you think a four to seven dollar difference in nearly the same.

    5. Re:*Cough* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it only has one decent song then don't buy it! Is it the RIAA's fault that you're buying albums you don't like?

    6. Re:*Cough* by Danse · · Score: 1

      They are 10 years late and investigating the wrong medium. I don't see anything wrong with 99 cents per song, my issues were the $21 for a CD with one decent song.

      Actually, IIRC, at least some RIAA members have been convicted of price-fixing on at least 2 occaisions. The problem is that the penalties aren't anywhere near severe enough to deter them from it. Much better to rake in the cash and pay a comparatively small fine.

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
  10. Allofmp3 it seems by bunbuntheminilop · · Score: 1, Informative
    escapes unharmed.

    http://www.allofmp3.com/

    1. Re:Allofmp3 it seems by argent · · Score: 1

      I don't know what the Attorney General is supposed to do about the Russian Mafia. Do any artists actually get any money from them? I don't think so...

    2. Re:Allofmp3 it seems by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      lol. Nothing to do with the russian mafia, and they do pay their dues. It's more to do with the difference in exchange rates/sales prices - allofmp3 prices are *high* compared to the street price of CDs in russia.

    3. Re:Allofmp3 it seems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe that the RIAA can't accurately estimate the amount of traffic from Allofmp3.com like it could with the P2P networks. This is what keeps them safe (that and being run by the russian mafia).

      I'm really impressed at how Allofmp3.com has been improving their site. They could double their prices, and I would keep shopping there.

    4. Re:Allofmp3 it seems by argent · · Score: 1

      they do pay their dues.

      Can you name a musician outside Russia that has recieved any dues from AllOfMP3?

      It's more to do with the difference in exchange rates/sales prices - allofmp3 prices are *high* compared to the street price of CDs in russia.

      Really? You can buy legal CDs of US artists for those kinds of prices in Russia?

    5. Re:Allofmp3 it seems by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      that is not what GP said.... street price = actual amount people pay when buying it.

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    6. Re:Allofmp3 it seems by argent · · Score: 1

      You can buy bootlegs real cheap... that doesn't mean it's legit to sell them for that price, or allofmp3 to sell for even a higher price.

      If they're not bootlegs he's talking about, then I'd like to see some evidence.

  11. Rule 1 of slashdot: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    It doesn't matter if it's apt. It doesn't matter if it's expressive. It doesn't matter if it's relevant to the situation, or if it accurately parallels reality. It doesn't even matter if it makes any sense.

    If you make a post-length analogy, you will get +1 insightful.

    (Rule 2 of slashdot is that if you say "I know I'm going to get moderated down for saying this, but...", you will get moderated up.)

    1. Re:Rule 1 of slashdot: by Spazntwich · · Score: 0, Troll

      I don't know what you're talking about. Usually if I make an intentional troll and call it such, I just end up modded as flaimbait or redundant.

    2. Re:Rule 1 of slashdot: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, that's because you're bad at it.

    3. Re:Rule 1 of slashdot: by DancesWithBlowTorch · · Score: 1
      (Rule 2 of slashdot is that if you say "I know I'm going to get moderated down for saying this, but...", you will get moderated up.)
      Actually, I've always either downmodded posts including this sentence or left them unmodded, if they were really good. And I am quite sure that a lot of other mods do just the same.
    4. Re:Rule 1 of slashdot: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      maybe so, but there are a lot more doing the opposite since i always see that shit modded (+5 Cocksucker)

    5. Re:Rule 1 of slashdot: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Well, you may mod down, but more of them mod up, and in the end it's the net modding that counts.

      Which raises an interesting question: what post holds the record for the greatest total mod points, where the mods fight each other up and down, up and down? I once had a post that was modded up to +5 then down to -1. But I wonder what the record is: what was the greatest mod fight of all time?

    6. Re:Rule 1 of slashdot: by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 2, Informative

      This is a long time ago, but this post is what you are looking for.

      Everyone lost.

    7. Re:Rule 1 of slashdot: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had a post get moderated up/down 27 times before I stopped counting. It ended at +5... Interesting side-effect of the penalty box: you can actually get a siteban for a single post, even if it gets more upmod than downmod.

  12. MP3 players on K-12 school property by tepples · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I'm not really sure how relavent the old style labels are to the modern music industry. Strip away the hype and the fact remains

    ...that independent artists have no better way to reach minor audiences. Minor children can't get into affordable live music venues (all of which serve alcoholic beverages), and they often are forbidden to bring MP3 players or other electronic contraband onto school property (and are thus forced to listen to whatever RIAA shit the school bus driver's favorite Clear Channel monopoly is playing).

  13. Hmm, let me think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    with federal officials understood to be focusing on whether the companies have been colluding to keep the price of downloads artificially high

    [Drawn Together]Ah DUUUUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaauh[/Drawn Together]

  14. Used CDs by tepples · · Score: 1

    my issues were the $21 for a CD with one decent song.

    That's why I head to the local pawn shop (which, ironically, doesn't have chess sets) and pick up 10 CDs at a time. Volume discount means I pay $21 for ten CDs, each with one to four decent songs encoded without psychoacoustic distortion on a durable medium. The current m4p/wma business model, on the other hand, makes no provision for a counterpart to the used CD market.

  15. Just downloads? by Dracos · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Price fixing has been a hallmark of the music industry for fifty years. Let's look at CD's.

    It costs any record company, on average, about $0.25 to get one CD into a retail store. This includes:

    • Studio time
    • Engineering/mixing
    • Paying the artist
    • Promotion
    • Distribution

    Normally, manufacturers strive to keep their cost per unit at or below 12.5% of the retail price. The distributor then buys the unit at 30% to 40% of retail. The retailer buys the unit at 60% of retail. The customer buys the unit at (you guessed it) full retail price.

    Let's see how the typical $16 CD retail price breaks down:

    • $16.00: Cost to consumer
    • $9.60: retailer (wholesale) cost
    • $4.80 to $6.40: distributor cost
    • $2.00: production cost

    But Wait!!! Most record companies are their own distributors. More profit for them.

    We see now that $0.25 (real cost) is about 1/8 of the production cost calculated here. Following the model, one CD should cost about $2.00.

    Which is still more than most of the trite crap produced these days is worth. Music isn't a cash cow, it's a cash herd.

    1. Re:Just downloads? by lasindi · · Score: 1

      It costs any record company, on average, about $0.25 to get one CD into a retail store.

      Care to share with us how you calculated that?

      --
      I have discovered a truly remarkable proof of this theorem that this sig is too small to contain.
    2. Re:Just downloads? by Josh+Hughey · · Score: 1

      I completely agree in that, by all moral standards, that CD should cost about $2.00, however you're forgetting the ultimate "rule" of free-market economics: charge as high a price as people are willing to pay, not what's really fair. It's all about profit maximization! Honestly, since it's the record labels' job to make as much money as possible (the entire point in a capitalist economy like that of the United States), I'm glad that they do all the things they do to try to make money. I do NOT agree with them on a moral level and I despise their lack of fairness, however I do understand why they do it. Since the record industry is doing its job, and music is still horribly overpriced, despite competition, that leaves only one possibility: the US Government isn't doing its job - looking out for US consumers and the economy as a whole, by cracking down on abuses like this. If this investigation does force royalties that labels charge to go down, I think their next stop should be a possible antitrust case against Apple. As much as I like Apple (and believe me, that's a lot!), I really have to question the wisdom of allowing the iTunes music store to be compatible only with the iPod and vice versa (as far as I know), especially given its popularity. The fact is that with royalties being as high as they are (I'd guess that the majority of the cost we pay for that $0.99 song is royalty fees - at least half anyway), and the closed nature of the iPod and iTunes technologies, it would be very difficult - if not impossible - for a real competitor to enter into the marketplace with real force and drive those prices down. A competitor, I might add, that will still be around in a few years. That's just my two cents!

      --
      Josh Hughey
    3. Re:Just downloads? by zotz · · Score: 1

      [however you're forgetting the ultimate "rule" of free-market economics: charge as high a price as people are willing to pay, not what's really fair.]

      Hmmm, but when you are dealing in a product where the government is giving you a protected monopoly on said product, you are not talking free-market economics anymore.

      And copyright is indeed a protected monopoly granted to you by the government. So, no free markets here.

      all the best,

      drew
      -----
      http://www.ourmedia.org/node/111123
      A copyleft (ok, a BY-SA) book, just for you.

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
    4. Re:Just downloads? by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      I'd quite like to see sources for all his numbers, actually. Without them, how am I to know they're right?

    5. Re:Just downloads? by lasindi · · Score: 1

      I completely agree in that, by all moral standards, that CD should cost about $2.00, however you're forgetting the ultimate "rule" of free-market economics: charge as high a price as people are willing to pay, not what's really fair.

      So tell us, how do you determine "what's really fair?" After all, it would be really unfair if someone was forced into paying more than they want, right? Well guess what? If you have to pay anything at all, that's more than you're going to want to pay. I have to ask, what is "unfair" about an agreement in which both parties are acting completely voluntarily? If you think the price of a CD is too high, here's a solution: don't buy it! Go and buy another CD. I promise, you won't starve and die. If you don't buy it, record companies will have to lower the price so that more people buy the CDs. What is "fair" in this context is so subjective that it's completely meaningless in this discussion.

      Now of course, if price fixing is really going on, then that harms free markets because the consumer will no longer have competitors to turn to, which free markets depend on. But if people have decided on their own to pay for $10 CDs, so be it; obviously they think that the CDs are worth that much, so they become that valuable.

      Since the record industry is doing its job, and music is still horribly overpriced, despite competition, that leaves only one possibility: the US Government isn't doing its job - looking out for US consumers and the economy as a whole, by cracking down on abuses like this.

      If price fixing is going on, the record is not doing their job; price fixing is illegal. But if $10/CD is the price that consumers and record companies settled on without any shady deals behind the scenes, the only people "looking out for US consumers" are the consumers themselves. Charging as much as you can is what anyone including yourself would do. None of your potential customers would deserve special "looking out for;" that's what their brains are for.

      Look, it's quite simple. You think that the latest pop star's CD is only worth $2, but it's priced at $10. You don't have to buy it; heck, you can just pretend the CD never was released and live your life as though the "unfair" price never existed. On the other hand, a substantial number of other people think that the CD is worth at least $10, so they willing go and buy it. So, who's been treated unfairly and who has been hurt by the whole debacle? No one. Slashdotters don't get to determine prices, the entire public does; you just have to cope with that.

      --
      I have discovered a truly remarkable proof of this theorem that this sig is too small to contain.
    6. Re:Just downloads? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      walmart has some DVDs of older tv shows and ancient movies for that price at full retail, which proves it is possible to get plastic discs out to the public at that price-for all the content *if they chose to do so*. If all music came like that, it would pretty much smash piracy, people wouldn't bother with it. At 10 to 20 bucks a disk, it is a purchase item, something people really think on first. At a dollar or two it would drop to impulse item, even "grab a handful".

      They would sell a lot more and most likely make more profit that way.

    7. Re:Just downloads? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Care to share with us how you calculated that?

      Why don't you produce better estimate instead? Tell your sources when you do.

  16. O...K.... by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 1

    Well all I can say to that is you are really, really living up to your name. Well done.

  17. The parable of the dimly disguised simile by TiggertheMad · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...wait a second, I thought that you could fix prices all you wanted to on non-essential products. Wasn't The Sherman Anti-Trust act addressing critical comodities, such as food, fuel and similar vital products that are important to the economy?

    I think the RIAA is inhuman scum as much as the next slashdot basement troll, but who really cares if they collude to set the price for old Tiffany songs at $8 or $16? I don't need them to live, so they can form a big evil cartel and charge ONE HUDRED BILLUN DOLLARS if they want to.

    --

    HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
    1. Re:The parable of the dimly disguised simile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      ...wait a second, I thought that you could fix prices all you wanted to on non-essential products

      Except that the major record labels have built their entire business model around convincing customers that buying the latest britney/christina/etc single is essential. It's no conincidence that their target audience is the ipressonable youth who this tactic actually works on.

      I don't need them to live, so they can form a big evil cartel and charge ONE HUDRED BILLUN DOLLARS if they want to.

      So you don't mind if they rip off all the youngsters who fall victim to the advertising and peer pressure? Seems a little selfish to me...

      PS is this where I put "Won't somebody think of the children"?

    2. Re:The parable of the dimly disguised simile by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 1

      This is Slashdot, where it's totally okay to pirate music and blame the RIAA for it, but if someone pirates GPL code, they demand that company be sued.

      --
      "Sufferin' succotash."
  18. Too little too late by porkface · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Where was this investigation a decade ago when it was price fixing and racketeering of the music printing and distribution business that resulted in $18 CDs as the cost of doing business and bringing the product to market declined?

    It's funny too because all the clean-up this investigation could possibly lead to won't save the labels of the RIAA. They long ago crossed the line, laughed, and STILL refuse to acknowledge their misdeeds. It's a good thing consumers aren't suffering their tyranny anymore.

  19. How dare they! by jimicus · · Score: 5, Funny

    Don't they realise that 90% of albums make a loss?! That marketing and distribution is incredibly expensive? That the few artists who do make a profit essentially provide a subsidy so the record companies can go out and find new talent?

    Do these busybodies not grasp that record company executives need to have two new luxury cars every year?

    Do they not realise that by the time you've bribed DJs all around the world to play your music rather than the interesting demo some promising new band sent them, there's only enough money left for bonuses in the region of $20 million/year? How can record companies hope to continue attracting the best chief executives if they can only pay $20million in bonuses?

    1. Re:How dare they! by cougar100 · · Score: 1

      very very simple Instead of ripping the people off they should start looking at the crappy music they try to sell. I know damned well i will buy any album worth it's grain of salt but i wont be ripped off by these executives that think that i should pay an arm and a leg for a song that i can listen to on a radio station.One thing for sure is if these talented artists are really artists and not the famous duo milli vanilli, then they should put a few good songs on that album and then i might decide if my 20 dollars is worth it....damn I miss those beatles at least i got value for money.

    2. Re:How dare they! by porcupine8 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Whatever, they don't have to bribe the DJs. They just talk to one guy at Clear Channel, and suddenly hundreds (thousands?) of DJs across the country are told they must play this single once every three hours.

      --
      Warning: Apple/Nintendo fangirl. Likes her electronics cute & cuddly. May be rabid.
    3. Re:How dare they! by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 1

      It raises an interesting point though. Taste varies greatly and the crap stuff may actually be what sells best.

      A trip in to HMV today shows that they have an un-ending selection of albums like Totally R&B, Monster Jamz, Club Anthems and similar crap (at least in my opinion). Presumably this stuff must sell well since they've so many of them.

      The Nine Inch Nails album 'With Teeth' sold 272,000 copies in its first week. Britney Spears' album 'oops I did it again' sold 1.3 million in its first week (both figures based on US sales). I know which I prefer and it 'aint the best-seller.

      --
      -- Using the preview button since 2005
    4. Re:How dare they! by The_Mr_Flibble · · Score: 1

      I'm not an artist (unless you count bullshit)
      But wasn't there a thing about a band that got signed by some record label and in the fine print they had to pay for all the publicity and production costs of their albums out of the "profit" they made from their album.
      So it ended costing them more money and the record company got take take their cut off the top before any deductions.
      Or have these practises changed ?

  20. As much as I'm inclined to like this... by einexile · · Score: 0

    Do we really want the government hassling the record labels in the same (sort of) way they've been hassling music pirates, just because the record labels should have terrible things happen to them? Maybe this is the flip side of the War on Unauthorized Clicking, and sure, turnabout is fair play... but none of that makes this a good idea.

    These people will not leave us alone until we start piling their children into dump trucks. Cheering them on won't make things better. Boohing them doesn't seem to do much good either, but at least those of us boohing don't deserve the world they want to create.

  21. CDs by tooth · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I don't care about price fixing of music downloads. Look at price fixing of physical CDs instead. How can a music CD cost the same as a movie DVD? And while they're at it, make them use the true CDROM standard, without drm hacks.

    1. Re:CDs by larry+bagina · · Score: 1
      Most movies pay for themselves at the box office. DVD sales are pure gravy.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    2. Re:CDs by stunt_penguin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "How can a music CD cost the same as a movie DVD?"

      I also find it strange that a music CD can cost pretty much the same- a movie will cost tens (maybe hundreds) of millions of euros to produce, but retails for about 26 if you're lucky, and a new album costs much, much less to produce (oh, say 2 million if you're an absolutely huge band and spend like 2 years on it) and costs nearly 20 or so to buy.

      That said, the cinema run pays for most of the costs of movie production, though not as often as you'd think, and by the time something makes it to HMV they're just making profit on something that a lot have people have paid 9 to see once, without taking a copy home, and with some idiot texting someone on the phone 5 seats to your left. At the same time, I still love going to the cinema and ( I went last night ) and don't begrudge a good movie a good profit.
       

      --
      When the posters fear their moderators, there is tyranny; when the moderators fears the posters, there is liberty.
    3. Re:CDs by dubstar · · Score: 1

      You'll see CDs priced in the range of some movie DVDs because movies make the majority of their money back when you're getting gouged at the theatre, not when you buy the DVD. If a movie hasn't paid production costs and made a decent profit by the time it gets out of the theatre then it is generally considered a failure. Everything from DVD sales is typically just icing on the cake, there are far fewer production costs to recoup by that time.

      I don't much care about the price of downloadable music either, to me a physical CD is still a better value - in fact, most CDs I purchase would end up costing me more to download.

    4. Re:CDs by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1
      I also find it strange that DVDs and CDs cost the same. I rarely watch a DVD more than two or three times, while I listen to CDs tens or hundreds of times.

      I guess that's why I now buy CDs and rent DVDs.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:CDs by Geckoman · · Score: 1
      The dispartity is far more pronounced in the US, where 20 year-old "bargain value" CDs at most retailers are US$10-12, while 20 year-old bargain DVDs are $5-8. Even new, most movies are in the $15-20 range, while most albums are in the...$15-20 range.

      It seems unlikely to me that a Sony-BMG spends more on marketing a CD than Universal spends on marketing a movie (unless it's Serenity, apparently).

    6. Re:CDs by portnoy · · Score: 1

      I don't think so. Movies used to make most of their cash at the box office, but now most don't break even until you add in DVDs and TV licensing. A recent Slate article did an analysis of the numbers.

  22. Cash by nighty5 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    1) Cold hard cash will be transfered under "campaign contribution" from the mysterious Big Four to the US Attorney General.

    2) Investigation will reveal nothing.

    3) Profit!

    1. Re:Cash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or more precisely:

      2) Investigation reveals something

      3) More cold hard cash is transfered to the US Attorney General. (I mean, campaign contribution)

      4) Investigation reveals nothing.

    2. Re:Cash by jafac · · Score: 1

      Of Course!

      The US Attorney General just wants a piece of the action.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    3. Re:Cash by Wes+Janson · · Score: 1

      And then they make a movie out of it named "Musicana" and a handful of people think about it for a little while, do nothing, and the world keeps on turning.

      Hollywood has never succeeded in being as cynical as the real world.

  23. Investigations.. by novus+ordo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Anybody notice whenever something happens an investigation is started and you never hear about it again?

    --
    "You're everywhere. You're omnivorous."
    1. Re:Investigations.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i just saw syriana last night, and there was a great quote about this.

      "In this town, you're innocent until investigated."

    2. Re:Investigations.. by DeathFromSomewhere · · Score: 1

      Times Article 03-05-84 ref uninvestigation. Doubleplus ungood. Rectify.

      --
      -1 overrated isn't the same thing as "I disagree".
    3. Re:Investigations.. by cnerd2025 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's not exactly a coincidence: the media has the shortest attention span there is. Legitimate stories are shunned in favor of the ridiculous. See, the media seems to think that we want to hear the most shocking stories, yada yada. The truth is--and all aspects of "entertainment" can listen to this--the truth is that the media and the entertainment industry are in a business that is not predictable, therefore is not inherently profitable. Hence, media and entertainment attempt to change that aspect, but when one tries to mold what is unmoldable, he ends up making an ass of himself. I was watching the Academy Awards tonight, and was quite satisfied with Jon Stewart, until the president of the Motion Picture Academy of Arts and Sciences came out and said some shit about how the old days of movie-going should be preserved. This sad devotion to tradition, soley for the sake of those in power, is ridiculous. The media covers the most "shocking" stories, but they happen to be ridiculous. Case in point: the Dubai "incident." An old proverb quips, "there are no new ideas in Hollywood," and it isn't alluding to the 5 basic stories ever told. As a matter of history, the best art and progress are made when careful and meticulous work are conjugated with creative and interesting methods of delivery. In the days when Hollywood execs are sticking their heads between their knees--for more reasons than one--those devoted to creativity and progress are taking the day. We would hear more about these investigations and findings from them if the news was actually news rather than pursuit of leads that didn't make the cut for the "National Enquirer." The media has the ability to investigate legitimacy, but it would rather play it "safe" and cover the "shocking." There is a supposition that (at least in the US) "people are idiots." I disagree. Movie sales were at a major low last year. Mainstream media is waning further as internet media and blogging become more dominant. Indie and underground artists are making their way in the stead of homogenous recycled garbage from Hollywood. This gives me hope: I think people realize they are being "played" and hence are voting with their pocket-books.

      I would also like to point out one thing: the modern political philosophy of special interests was originated in the New Deal, with legislation allowing for the formations of cartels. Today we are not in economic crisis and our system is much stronger than in the overindulgent 1920s. The world is explosively shrinking and it is the result of creativity, from Tim Berners-Lee to Shawn Fanning to Linus Torvalds, none of whom were "celebrities" before their creations. Today we are in the need of a new Progressive Era: not one in which government is the solution but one in which individuals and the increase in their freedoms are the solution. America and the West have moved out of their youth; now it is time for them both to stand up and become adults. This undertaking is a great one, but it can be accomplished. I hope that once again, like in the dreams and actions of America's founding fathers, people can truly stand for sacred ideals and pledge everything--lives, fortunes, and sacred honor--solely because of their beliefs in individual progress. Some of these men, including George Washington, believed that political parties were inherently a bad idea and led to corruption and spinelessness. I find myself agreeing with Mr. Washington more and more. People debate about the differences between Hilary and Dubya, but the simple fact is plain: there is no difference. Obviously one is "liberal" and the other "conservative," but honesty, what is the difference? Both favor big government, both have affairs with wealthy special interests, and both constantly limit the rights of Americans and Humans around the world. There is no difference. Hitler is only different from Moussilini in his attempted Genocide. Today our leaders are not Fascists or Nazis, but when will they be? When the individual exists solely for the State? The answer is simple: when Fear, the

  24. Just to be a little obtuse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Different music labels sell different products. Sure, they both sell music, but this one sells Britney Spears and that one sells Nine Inch Nails. The products may be similar, but they are not interchangeable. A label with more desirable artists will sell more product than the one with less desirable artists.

    The product is the artist, not the band. And so unless you are talking specifically about artists that have cross-label contracts, you'll have to agree that the music companies are all selling similar, but not identical stuff.

    1. Re:Just to be a little obtuse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because copyright does not allow them to sell the same stuff, so an apples to apples comparision isn't possible due to goverment granted monopolies.

    2. Re:Just to be a little obtuse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which sort of proves the point about not selling the same stuff... Which sort of makes the original analogy not so bad.

      Contrary to the guy's moniker.

  25. Someone has to say it by daemonenwind · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Anti-trust investigation of a company strong-arming consumers? Delivered to you by the Bush Administration and the evil henchman Alberto Gonzales.

    Because, you know, they're in the back pocket of business.

    1. Re:Someone has to say it by dammy · · Score: 1

      Pull your head out of the sand for a minute and consider it's the RIAA/MPAA crowd that donates heavily to the Democrats, not the GOP. Bet your thinking Hillary is right on top of this extremely stupid and racist anti-Dubia policy right? Take a look at where the money is coming from her joint checking account with Bill, http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/4/141014 .shtml?s=ic

      No, if anything, letting the DoJ go play with RIAA or MPAA folks would be a good thing for the GOP. You, as the anti-Bush, anti-conservative type, should be out buying CDs and DVDs by your favorite ant-Bush artist by the arm full. Afterall, your hard earn money is going into their pockets so they can afford to donate for you to the Democrat cause.

      Dammy

    2. Re:Someone has to say it by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Get a grip mate, oh, and stay away from bell towers.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    3. Re:Someone has to say it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      when i buy a CD, my hard earned money is going into the pockets of the RIAA, not the artist.

    4. Re:Someone has to say it by porcupine8 · · Score: 1
      Uh, dude? I think you're preaching to the choir there. Call me crazy, but I think I noted a hint of sarcasm in the parent.

      Because, see, I think the point was that if the administration *were* in the pocket of big business, then they wouldn't be conducting this investigation.

      But don't let me get in the way of what is obviously a well-rehearsed rant.

      --
      Warning: Apple/Nintendo fangirl. Likes her electronics cute & cuddly. May be rabid.
    5. Re:Someone has to say it by qeveren · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Huh? It's called a 'smokescreen'. Investigate a certain business for price fixing, find nothing wrong, everything goes on business as usual. Happens up here in Canada every time the government 'investigates' the gas companies for price fixing.

      --
      Don't just stand there, get that other dog!
  26. The root of the problem by Spy+Hunter · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I don't see how price fixing can even be *defined* in the music market. The entire industry is built on government-granted monopolies (copyright). Supply is infinite; competition is crippled; prices are arbitrary even in the absence of any shady dealings.

    Even if the attorney general did decide to take some action, it would undoubtedly be some slap-on-the-wrist fine or equally ineffective measure. Nobody seems to ever consider doing something that might be effective. In this case, the problem is at its root caused by the government-granted monopoly of copyright. No copyright, no problems! If the government is unhappy with the copyright monopolies they have created, why not strike the problem at its root and weaken the copyrights of those who abuse them?

    This would work not just on music companies but on any business built on copyright; for example software businesses such as Microsoft. Instead of a fine, simply slash the duration of copyright on the company's assets, or even release some portion of them to the public domain immediately. This would not only serve as a deterrent to future abuses; it would actually reduce their *ability* to commit abuses in the present, and it would measurably benefit the public as well.

    --
    main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
    1. Re:The root of the problem by zotz · · Score: 1

      [why not strike the problem at its root and weaken the copyrights of those who abuse them?]

      Bam! Finally someone who sees what I see on this. (check my other posts.)

      You price fix, you lose your copyrights. (If you are not gonna take them away completely, but just reduce the term, you should include a period right now when they are not enforceable. Immediate punishment as it were.)

      As I have been saying for a long while, there are no free markets in goods protected by copyrights and patents.

      (With the possible exception of copyleft only type goods.)

      all the best,

      drew
      -----
      http://www.ourmedia.org/node/111123
      For instance, my BY-SA covered novel "Tings"

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
  27. Sorry, but... by cirby · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...your numbers are just plain wrong.

    Hell, it would cost more than a quarter just to *ship* one CD.

    Let's look at some more realistic assumptions.

    First: Let's say a "typical" CD sells 100,000 copies (they don't, on the average, but we'll go with the 100K number).

    We'll assume the band is made up of five guys.

    If they're using a good studio (not the cheap-ass garage-based kind), you're looking at $10,000 for studio time alone. A good producer will want to pay for a good engineer, so there's another $10,000 or so. Add in design costs, and actual physical production, and you're looking at upwards of $50,000 for a serious production (yeah, you can get an album hammered out at your cousin Phil's for a couple of thousand, but you can also drink Budweiser).

    So you're up to 50 cents a pop, just for recording and preproduction.

    CDs in bulk cost about 25 cents each for actual physical production in huge quantities, with labels and in boxes.

    So there's 75 cents in real production costs, and everyone concerned is going to make *zero* profit.

    Now, the label gets into the act, they have a bunch of people out there looking for the Next Big Thing, and they have to be paid for. The people who own the studio also need to be paid. Then there's the band. Suppose each of these groups make 50 cents a pop for each CD sold (a not-extreme number).

    So you're up to $2.25 in actual physical production costs plus royalties and a moderate amount of profit.

    Now, here's the hard part: Moving the damned things around. They have to go from the factory that prints the CDs, to the warehouse owned by the label, then to the first middleman. You're up to $2.50 a pop now.

    That first-level middleman is going to want to make some profit, too. So he's going to take that $2.50 in costs and double it (he has to pay his warehouse crew, plus his staff, plus pay the rent on the building, et cetera - doubling is pretty common in order to make a decent profit). So you're at $5 a shot, and it's in a big buildding out in St. Loius or something.

    Now, the middleman takes orders from all of those little retailers, plus all of the big retailers, and ships them out UPS (or the like). Every Tuesday, those retailers get that week's stock of CDs in, and what to they do? They double the cost (what the middleman charged with shipping coss, then a markup for the store's costs, which include rent, staff, and al otehr costs).

    So even for the "cheap" model of production, you're looking at $10 CDs.

    Which is, oddly enough, what the price is for "discount" CDs of fairly popular bands, and what most local bands charge or their locally-producred discs.

    NOTE:

    The numbers above assume a fairly high number for a "typical" CD. The real average is closer to 5,000 than 100,000...

    There's also the "risk taker" model to be included. They don't charge $16.99 ($12.99 at Best Buy) for a successful CD to rip you off. They charge that much to pay for the next CD they put out that tanks in the market, where they eat all production costs yet still have to pay those folks all up and down the line.

    1. Re:Sorry, but... by jb.hl.com · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up. I doubt many here have much idea of what a record company does and how much it costs, and this post sums it up neatly.

      --
      By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
    2. Re:Sorry, but... by aaronl · · Score: 1

      By your "calculation", that means that basically NOTHING could cost less than $10 retail. Last I checked, I can buy some things that are considerably larger than a CD, for under $10, and these things have much higher production costs (ie: furniture).

      1) Labels do not charge themselves for studio work of any type. They have people on salary for this stuff. They charge the *band* for these things, and put the band into debt from the start. This is part of their contract practices that ensures that the band is reliant on the label.

      2) It costs significantly less than $0.25 to ship a CD, as in around a tenth of that.

      3) It costs less than $0.25 for them to manufacture a CD. Again, they don't pay themselves, they just bill the band as part of the contract. I'll keep the $0.25 because it's close enough, and would include the shipping cost.

      --- So, we're up to $0.25 for a CD. ---

      4) These people do not make $0.25 per unit sold. The band makes a percentage of the sale price, less massive deductions that go back to the label. Most CDs *never* make the band any royalties; it's all eaten up by the label. In your 100,000 copy sale run, the artist makes nothing. The producer takes about $0.25, though. The artist cut still comes out, but they don't get it, so it has to count. We'll use 7% of retail for this, and retail is about $15, so I'll say $1.00.

      --- We're up to $1.50 now ---

      5) Now we have to subtract the payback to the label from this cost, which brings it down to $1.25. This leaves just the real costs in the CD price.

      You do have costs, such as marketing, but they are actually taken care of by the artist owning the label. The artist might start getting 10% of the retail as a royalty, but under 250,000 pieces or so, they get nothing; it all goes back to the label to cover all of their costs. By that quarter million sold mark, the label has made back their investment, and it only costs shipping and duplication.

      So, it costs $1.25 to have that CD on its way to a wholesaler. Using what the GP said, a CD should retail for $10, and that's assuming that there is a seperate distributer and that the retail outlet marks up the price considerably. In reality, neither is true, but $10 is still a lot less than typical retail. That's even less than someone like Amazon.

    3. Re:Sorry, but... by cirby · · Score: 1

      "It costs significantly less than $0.25 to ship a CD, as in around a tenth of that."

      Really? Put fifty of them in a box and ask UPS if they'll ship it across the country for $1.25. With a ten pound package, shipping UPS ground, regular pickup, you're looking at about *eight times* that, not even considering the costs of assembling the order, putting it all in the package, having someone deal withe the UPS paperwork, or billing.

      The rest of your numbers come from similar (really, really flawed) assumptions about the real world. Your comments about labels and staffing, recording costs, and royalties are particularly humorous.

    4. Re:Sorry, but... by fightzombies · · Score: 1

      You think the record companies pay consumer UPS rates? When you ship 10,000 CDs a day (a totally made up number to illustrate my point), it costs significantly less per CD than shipping 10 CDs a day.

    5. Re:Sorry, but... by cirby · · Score: 1

      I *know* they pay regular business UPS rates. You can find this out by looking at the box when they come into the store. Which I have.

      You, obviously, have not.

      Especially if you believe the big record companies (or the middlemen distributors) pay *1/8* the price other businesses pay (they get a few percent discount, not 80%+).

    6. Re:Sorry, but... by aaronl · · Score: 1

      At standard non-volume rates, it comes to approximately $0.25 per CD. When you factor in that they are shipping huge volumes, and very likely using their own trucks for parts of this, it gets much less expensive. Nobody shipping volume ever pays the rate from the UPS web site. Anyone shipping thousands of pieces at standard rates through a third party agent is just an idiot. Do you honestly think that every Wal*Mart, FYE, HMV, etc, gets their own individual shipments of each CD? Everything goes in massive lots to distribution centers and then is shipped out en mass to each store.

      The rest of my numbers come from contract terms with RIAA members. 2-3% of retail goes to the producer, sometimes as much as 12% goes to the artist. $15,000-25,000 for the studio work for the CD. Advertising, reproduction, and distribution is figured into a payback schedule that goes against the artist's royalties until fully recovered. The artist doesn't see anything from royalties until the label's costs are recovered. Most contracts will give up-front money to the artist, but it's often more akin to a loan against their projected success.

      The RIAA has been convicted of price fixing in the past, and of other forms of collusion. There have been multiple anti-trust suits where they were convicted in Federal court. It is also easily verifiable that stores don't make much in profit from individual CD sales, but they do move a very large volume and make good profit as a result. Physical costs of a CD are cents on the sale, as are distribution costs. The RIAA affiliates have a huge cash cow, and for some reason you feel the need to try to defend their illegal actions.

    7. Re:Sorry, but... by fightzombies · · Score: 1

      oh, so you mean the *store* pays UPS rates. because obviously record stores and record companies are the same thing. please, you once looked at a box at a record store and you now know what record companies pay to send CDs over the country? the plural of anecdote is not data.

    8. Re:Sorry, but... by cirby · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's exactly what I mean. The store is who pays for shipping. Even if the distributor "pays" it, they increase their prices to cover the costs.

      And that cost goes into the pot when they figure out how much to sell the CD for. They don't add it on later, they *start* with what the thing cost them to _get it in the door and sell it_. That's cost to the middleman + shipping + rent + labor + utilities + advertising + state and local taxes + legal fees, et cetera. Then they increase the price some more so they actually make a profit, plus have some cushion for next week, when they have to dump all of those shitty little albums that never sold (AKA "a loss"). ...UPS and the like don't give 80% discounts, no matter how much crap you ship. They have static costs, too.

  28. can't have it both ways by 192939495969798999 · · Score: 2, Informative

    I think the point is that price fixing fosters piracy, so you can't both claim that piracy is hurting your business, and then charge 'a hundred billun dollars' for some song(s). Anyone who wants those has to steal them, just like with prohibition... making something that is already extremely popular illegal just makes everyone an outlaw and fails to address the problem.

    --
    stuff |
  29. If ever you are going to be audited... by babbling · · Score: 1

    It is good to be audited by your friends.

  30. These number's can't be close by tkrotchko · · Score: 5, Informative

    "So even for the "cheap" model of production, you're looking at $10 CDs."

    Impossible.

    Sony BMG has once-a-month sales where they ship CD's to your house at $6-7 per disk. Presumably when I buy a $6 CD, Sony is not losing money, so it suggests the cost is significantly lower than you calculate.

    --
    You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
    1. Re:These number's can't be close by melstav · · Score: 1

      You're ignoring BMG's business model.

      Go to your music collection, and pull out a handful of cds that you KNOW, for absolute certainty, that you purchsed through BMG. Now, look at the label side of the CD. You should see text along these lines: "Manufactured in USA for BMG Direct Marketing, INC" This text, and/or the BMG logo should also be on either the CD sleeve or the CD insert, if not both.

      BMG is not a retail outlet.

      BMG is a wholesaler, or to use an actual quote from the post you're responding to, "a first-level middleman". They buy direct from the record label and sell direct to you, the end user. Their actual cost to buy the discs is going to be slightly higher than the $2.50 listed, but just because they have to amortize the costs of custom silkscreens for the CDs and custom printing for the sleeves. Amortized across even 1000 CDs, we're only talking a per-disc cost of a few cents. Let's be generous and call it a total cost to BMG (or Columbia House) of $2.60.

      Now, every time you purchase from BMG, or Columbia House, they charge you a "Shipping and Handling" fee that is significantly higher than the cost of postage. The "Handling" part of that fee covers somebody going into the warehouse, finding the CDs you ordered, and boxing them up to go out the door. (Actually, the "handling" fee is generally significantly more than the actual handling costs, but that's beside the point.) This is something that would be normally included in the overhead of a wholesaler.

      We also have to account for the monthly mailing that you get. Let's assume that they average only selling one CD per mailing that they put out the door. Tack on 40 cents for postage, and another 25 (I'm being generous. High volume web printing is CHEAP) for the cost of acutally printing the mailing.

      We're now up to $3.25 for their cost, and on the "Discount" discs, you're paying $6 plus "Handling". So they're still making good money on the discount discs, and they're making a killing on the ones you're buying at full price.

    2. Re:These number's can't be close by dubstar · · Score: 1

      Production runs also play a factor in pricing. Obviously if 1,000,000 copies were pressed as opposed to the 100,000 in the example given, then the cost of things like recording/engineering of the actual album remain the same and you have a larger profit margin. My experience has been that music clubs have a tendency to only carry albums that go through large production runs. Since it is direct mail sales they also don't have multiple levels of middle-men taking their cut down the line, further increasing the profit margins. There are probably other factors as well, but the point is that its allowing for lower prices than your local record store.

      I certainly don't mean to come off as defending the 'big biz music industry' either, but there always seems to be a lot of strange comparisons in these threads that bug me. I know of several indy bands that end up taking a hit selling their albums at prices similar to what the big four charge. If it means getting people to their shows then it's worth it for them, not because they make that much money off the shows - they just enjoy doing it. Most of these same people are financing their 'music careers' from their day jobs, not making money. None of the smaller bands I know are able to live off their music, unless on tour - and that's often a far cry from what you and I would call living.

  31. "And therefore?" -- "He's a Troll!" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    You guys are being a little intolerant. I think he is saying that he's disappointed in this article because it's old news. I agree (anonymously, of course).

    I read about this on Friday and again on Saturday (in paper form). I'd only expect to see this on /. if something NEW had happened.

    I know, I know..."shut-up and get back in your cage with the other trolls and lemmings."

  32. That's not price fixing. Now *that's* price fixing by michaelmalak · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The price of mainstream DRM-less downloaded music is still infinity.

    (The various attorney generals should just stay out of it at this point; they're a few dacades late to the game. There were two monopolies and they're both getting broken. Distribution, of course, was broken about five years ago with the widespread availability of broadband. The second, airplay, is in the process of being broken with the advent of satellite radio. It'll further get broken when/if they finally come out with EVDO Internet radios.)

  33. Also in the news by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Cardinals are conducting an investigation whether or not the pope is Catholic. Results might depend on the question whether he wants to be or not.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  34. answer by caffeination · · Score: 5, Insightful
    why don't we all go to Digg and set up camp at the new epicenter for geek news on the net?

    A few reasons.

    1. AJAX is bloaty. Digg takes an age to load.
    2. The right tool for the right job. AJAX for news? Why?
    3. Digg users are immature. NO DIGG FAGS
    4. Digg comments are a bitch to read through.
    5. The background gradient behind comments is buggy for long comments.
    6. Most front page stories on Digg aren't very good.
    7. Too many front page stories on Digg are blog links.
    8. Slashdot users are an older generation of internet users. Digg is all Web 2.0, and we don't get it.
    9. Lots of front page Digg links are beginner tutorials for css, perl etc. This does not appeal to the Slashdot demographic.
    10. Slashdot is about discussion. Digg isn't. They are completely different sites.

    I'm not 'flaming', or trying to be a prick in any way. It just seems that most Digg users don't understand why we aren't deserting Slashdot in droves for their site. You asked, I answered.

    1. Re:answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      To avoid karma whoring my parent comment, posting this as anon, for the sake of potential (f)lamers: even the parts of digg that aren't full ajax are really heavy on javascript. So don't come bitching with that. This is what the front page loads:
      <script src="/js/utils.js" type="text/javascript"></script>
      <!--<script src="/js/countdowns.js" type="text/javascript"></script>-->
      <script src="/js/xmlhttp.js" type="text/javascript"></script>
      <script src="/js/wz_dragdrop.js" type="text/javascript"></script>
      <script src="/js/hover.js" type="text/javascript"></script>
      <script src="/js/label.js" type="text/javascript"></script>
      <script src="/js/switcher.js" type="text/javascript"></script>
      <script src="/js/prototype.js" type="text/javascript"></script>
      <script src="/js/scriptaculous.js" type="text/javascript"></script>
      <script src="/js/aboutdigg.js" type="text/javascript"></script>
      <!-- digg is up 959595-->
      <script src="http://www.google-analytics.com/urchin.js" type="text/javascript">
    2. Re:answer by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      AJAX is bloaty. Digg takes an age to load.

      Digg loads instantly my old 1Ghz laptop.

      The right tool for the right job. AJAX for news? Why?

      Because AJAX allows you to actually watch the live feed of story activity on Digg, and it's the coolest thing you've ever seen. It also allows you to digg an article by just clicking a link and having it happen instantly, instead of waiting for the entire site to reload, which is ridiculous.

      Digg users are immature. NO DIGG FAGS

      Slashdot users are just as immature. FIRST PROST! Mod down those posts.

      Digg comments are a bitch to read through.

      No, they're not. You don't really explain what you're talking about here.

      The background gradient behind comments is buggy for long comments.

      Yeah, and Slashdot's new CSS often puts graphics in front of text on my browser. Bugs will get fixed.

      Most front page stories on Digg aren't very good.

      And Slashdot's are? Remember Taco's super-long emo angst essay about not getting to use his nick in World of Warcraft? If you want better stories digg up better ones or submit them yourself. You are the editor at Digg.

      Too many front page stories on Digg are blog links.

      So you rate it as such and it gets removed automatically.

      Slashdot users are an older generation of internet users. Digg is all Web 2.0, and we don't get it.

      Heh...yeah, I agree with you 100% here.

      Lots of front page Digg links are beginner tutorials for css, perl etc. This does not appeal to the Slashdot demographic.

      Lots of Slashdot front page links are reviews of tutorial books and such.

      Slashdot is about discussion. Digg isn't. They are completely different sites.

      No, they are not "completely different sites." Digg has a threaded discussion system now. However, I will agree that the focus is, as it should be, on the news submission and not the blowhard opinions in the comments. Here at Slashdot, you'll find all kinds of misinformation get marked up with nobody to challenge it.

      Hey, if you want to stick with the old and the dying, that's fine. This place, in the year 2006, still uses a -1 to 5 moderation scale for a post. It's insane. Digg is where actual new features and innovation are taking place, and already Digg is overtaking Slashdot's traffic. I'm sure you'll move over eventually.

      --
      "Sufferin' succotash."
    3. Re:answer by caffeination · · Score: 1
      Hey, you've got fairly good responses to my points. The problem is that most of my points are really points of view, opinions:
      • You like flashy new AJAX technology because of its capabilities. I dislike it because it's overkill and a hack.
      • I don't like Digg's 'culture', you think Slashdot's is just as bad. The reason I disagree with you on this is tied in later, wait for it.
      • You find digg comments easy to read, I don't.
      • Rendering is always subjective. I've never seen a bug on Slashdot myself though.
      • I find that most of the stuff on Digg doesn't appeal to me, yet it appeals to you.
      • Story rating is a hot topic. A lot of us here want this for Slashdot. We've got our eye on k5 to see how it works out. It's not a universal opinion though.
      • Book reviews are different to links to pdfs and 100 Free Programming Books, and this difference reflects the difference in demographic. We like books. Digg users like files. Digg users, being generally younger, have grown up in a more computer oriented environment than most slashdotters. And although the end result is 99% the same, maybe slashdotters have a slight preference towards books over a computer screen for certain things, if only a little more than Digg users.
      • This last one - discussion - is the main one. It's why I left it to the end of my list. Digg has improved its discussion system, yes, you are correct. However, Digg in it's current condition still can't provide the same discussion as Slashdot. The simple fact is that Digg has too much throughput. A Slashdot story can remain on the front page for a long, long time. This allows people to take time, research a little, and contribute. There is then time for others to read their reply, and reciprocate. A story can be gone or relegated to the lower area of the page on Digg within hours. Even if a discussion gets going, it's doomed to stagnate because no new participants will join after too little time. This has an effect on the way people communicate on Digg in general. I've seen things like points being made through links to blog posts about digg etiquette being dugg to the front page, for example. It's a different balance to Slashdot's, and it's uncomfortable to me.
      Oh, and the thing about it taking an age to load has nothing to do with cpu speed. It's connection speed. I've got FasterFox installed, which counts the seconds until a complete page load. Slashdot takes about 20. Imagine Digg. And I have a fairly average connection speed (in global terms).
      Hey, if you want to stick with the old and the dying, that's fine. This place, in the year 2006, still uses a -1 to 5 moderation scale for a post. It's insane. Digg is where actual new features and innovation are taking place, and already Digg is overtaking Slashdot's traffic. I'm sure you'll move over eventually.
      This is the reason most Slashdot mods reach for the -1 Troll whenever someone mentions Digg. Arrogance like this. You made a reasonable post, and then satirised yourself at the end, as if there was something inherently wrong with the number range -1 to 5 due to the current year, and talking about AJAX, comments, and social bookmarking as if they were invented by Digg. Ignoring my slightly flamey remark there though, I hope I've helped you to see why we won't be moving over to Digg eventually, even if it is "overtaking Slashdot's traffic" (self-satirisation again).
    4. Re:answer by caffeination · · Score: 1
      Just to be clear, I'm only posting this under the assumption that OCG will check back at some point

      Digg in it's current condition still can't provide the same discussion as Slashdot. The simple fact is that Digg has too much throughput.

      I've just realised that there is really a kind of discussion at Digg, but being a stupid Slashdotter, I can't see it. It's a constant discussion about what's interesting and what's not on the internet. By definition, that is exactly what Digg is. It's kind of like polaroid though: we can't see it from here because we're perpendicular to it. Like I said, two completely different sites.

      This finally explains to me why I've seen so many Digg/Slashdot comments about how Digg is "exactly what I was waiting for" (yeah, naively I spent a while trying Digg out, but getting the wrong end of the stick and reading the comments. a lot of us here have done the same thing, and it's a big part of why we're so hostile towards the site now.).

      Oh, and a few times today I've tried to check out the new comment system at Digg, but after a little less than a minute some acquired intuitive alarm clock sounds, meaning that it's taken too long to load, and I close it. I'll give it as long as it wants and take a proper look before clicking Submit... it took > 2 minutes, but it was worth it. Extending the 'digg' metaphor is a smart touch. If they increased the digg quota required for the front page, or even better, scaled it so that the rate stayed steady at off-peak times, I might even be willing to take the wait a few times a day. Especially if comments show up in real time, which would be one of the first justified implentations of AJAX I've seen. That would also make it into a strange hybrid of IRC and Slashdot. Who knows, maybe that's the future. Here in good old March 5th 2006, I'm a Slashdotter, and it'll take more than the MIRACLE OF REAL TIME COMMUNICATION! to pry me away.

    5. Re:answer by dangitman · · Score: 1
      Because AJAX allows you to actually watch the live feed of story activity on Digg, and it's the coolest thing you've ever seen.

      I think you need to get out more if watching a live feed is the coolest thing you have ever seen. Aren't you supposed to be overly cynical?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    6. Re:answer by Reverend528 · · Score: 1

      Digg will need a Troll Culture before it will compare to slashdot.

    7. Re:answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know, what I really hate about Digg is its stupid 'digg/no digg' rating system. It's like walking through an art gallery going 'Yep, Yep, Yep, Nup, Yep, Yep, Nup'.

      What is the point of answering (effectively) 'yes' or 'no' to a news post???

    8. Re:answer by Hrodvitnir · · Score: 1

      You forgot:

      11. Half of all Digg front page stories deal with Xbox360, PS3, or Nintendo Revolution.

      --
      "There are more important things than stopping terrorism. Upholding the Constitution is one of them." - Ars Forumer.
  35. You're forgetting something... by cirby · · Score: 1

    "Presumably when I buy a $6 CD, Sony is not losing money..."

    You presume wrong, or at least, you presume halfway.

    That's for a direct shot from Sony to you, without the middleman, getting rid of excess inventory (rather than throw them away, they sell them to folks like you for a cut price). These aren't "profit CDs, they're "cutting our losses" CDs.

    Those $6 to $7 CDs are part of the *costs* of the expensive ones (where they make the profit that they don't make on the cheap "get them out of the warehouse for the new issues" discs).

    And you might note that they charge you (ta-daa!) *shipping* for those CDs...

    1. Re:You're forgetting something... by patricksevenlee · · Score: 1

      What everyone is forgetting is the artist. In the case of a direct sale record house deal (ie. Columbia House, Sony-BMG direct), the artist gets reduced and in many cases, no royalties from these sales. I know there will be people that will say, "Well if the artist doesn't like that then don't sign." but: 1. Sounds good in theory to do that but when it hits the real world, this is not a workable solution 2. Recording companies are banking on the fact that if you don't sign, some other goofball more desperate and/or stupid will, which does not make for a true value for value exchange.

    2. Re:You're forgetting something... by tkrotchko · · Score: 1

      Read what I said again. All CD's are $6 right now shipped to your door.

      All. Shipped. $6.

      --
      You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
    3. Re:You're forgetting something... by eliktronik · · Score: 1

      Can you provide a link or more info? I'd sure like to know where I can get CDs shipped for $6, when they cost roughly $10 on itunes.

    4. Re:You're forgetting something... by tkrotchko · · Score: 1

      go to www.bmgmusic.com

      --
      You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
  36. I can see it now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    AG: Did you four callude to raise the price of music?

    EMI: ahhh, no.
    Sony: no.
    BMG: er, no?
    Warner: what was the question again? oh, yeah, definetly not.

    AG: Well, that settles that, sorry for the inconvenience. BTW, hot dogs and hamburgers at my place tonight.

    1. Re:I can see it now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This post is obviously a load of crap. People this wealthy NEVER eat hot dogs.

  37. Price fixing by danwesnor · · Score: 1

    And when they're done with that, they can investigate price fixing in everything else from video games to Weber grills.

    (OK, so I realize examples that spanned more of the alphabet than from V to W would have been better, but it's early. :)

  38. The moral of the story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's always the customer's fault.

  39. A few notes about BMG by tkrotchko · · Score: 2, Insightful

    1) The sales they have are $6-7 including shipping

    2) BMG has at least gotten into the 1990's. They email their monthly choice and I decline on their web site. Still not free, but cheaper than sending letters back and forth

    3) Their choice is better than a department/5-10, but not as good as a real record store.

    4) I understand the business model, but if they can sell CD's out the door for $6-7 (right now the sale is $6 shipped), that suggests they could easily sell CD's retail for $10. I think if these guys dropped prices to under $10 retail, we wouldn't be having many discussions on piracy. But at $18? Yikes. That's an investment. The band better be really really really good to get $20 ($18 plus tax).

    --
    You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
    1. Re:A few notes about BMG by melstav · · Score: 1

      My point was that they can afford to be able to occasionally sell CDs at $6-$7 BECAUSE they buy direct from the label and sell direct to you.

      They have no brick and mortar retail outlets to support.
      There are no middlemen between them and the labels they buy from.

      The fact that the proposed pricing model postulated a $10 retail price at brick and mortar retail chains is not invalidated by the above sale price as you have suggested.

    2. Re:A few notes about BMG by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      .. and apple have no problem charging you $10-$15 for the same CD *minus* the cost of the physical media, which is what this investigation is all about.

    3. Re:A few notes about BMG by cirby · · Score: 1

      ...but you get it *now*, instead of a week or so later, and you don't have to worry about that "get an $18 CD from someone you don't want to listen to because you didn't opt out" situation...

  40. Since when? by aprilsound · · Score: 1
    I've been curious why it costs more to buy an entire album via download, than it does to buy the cd

    Since when can you buy a CD with more than 10 songs for less than $9.99? Because that's the most it will cost you on iTunes. If the album has fewer songs, it's $.99 * # songs.

    There are exceptions, where they've priced 15 minute tracks higher than $.99, and there are multi-CD albums, but those are sensible exceptions, not the rule.

    If you ask me though, .99 is still highway robbery. My download has no overhead other than iTunes bandwidth fee, which is pennies per sale.

    If labels wernt so busy throwing money at studios and into advertising so they can get the band into debt, then they would only have to sell a few thousand tracks to break even. Most bands with any talent at all can sell that much in less than a year, and nationaly known band will make that back in the first day.

    1. Re:Since when? by qzulla · · Score: 1
      If you ask me though, .99 is still highway robbery. My download has no overhead other than iTunes bandwidth fee, which is pennies per sale.

      Let's see how this actually adds up... bandwidth, server cost, electricity to run the servers, backup system, UPS, admins to keep them running, real estate space to store the servers, pay for the tune ($0.60 or so IIRC so we have $0.39 for support of the infrastructure), on-call costs for admins to make sure the servers run 24/7 (though clustering would help here adding more cost), the customer support people answering the phones to refund bad dloads and field complaints, the loading of new tunes, the development of the software, ....

      Granted some of the above may be automated but bandwidth is not the only cost here. They make, what? $0.10 per song or so I have heard. Sure, after a billion dloads that adds up to $100,000,000. For the record companies that is $600,000,000. (hope my math is close ;)

      Anyway you have to realize that $0.99 per download supports a lot of people and infrastructure.

      qz

  41. You just described one way price fixing works. by argent · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Let's cut to the chase, shall we?

    The "product" costs $2.50 to get out of the factory to the distributor. That sounds reasonable, I'll buy those prices.

    I don't buy two more doublings from there to the stores. If there's 300% profit between the distributor and the public, then someone's going to come in and buy from the distributor and ship directly to their stores, and sell them for $5.00.

    If you can't do that, because none of the distributors will sell direct to retail, then guess what... that's price fixing.

  42. Kind of like lottery tickets.... by Kadin2048 · · Score: 2, Funny

    I always thought that the high price of ringtones was some sort of a 'stupid tax' designed to protect the general public from having to listen to the latest Snoop Dogg obnoxiousness every time some asshole's phone goes off on the train.

    Obviously it's not working. Verizon, would you please, PLEASE increase the price on ringtones? How about $19.95? Wait -- I've got an even better idea -- why don't you bill it at 20 bucks per ring? You'll get right on that? Thanks.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  43. Which industry is more corrupt? by argent · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "I always think of how it can cost 99 cents to download a full song from iTunes... but then a ringtone... costs 3 dollars"

    That's because p2p networks still keeps prices on downloads down.


    $0.99 per song isn't "cheap"... iTMS attraction is that I don't have to buy 10 songs I don't like to get one I do. If I like the music enough to want the whole album, I buy the CD.

    It's the album price that limits the iTMS price. They couldn't get away with charging significantly more than CDs on iTMS when they get less for it.

    The prices of ringtones are high because you only need to buy a few, maybe even one, and unless you're a total pop culture slut once you find one you like you're unlikely to buy another for six months.

    And they don't need P2P ringtones. If you're savvy enough to be using P2P and you have a cellphone, there's bunches of programs out there that will let you take any chunk of a song and turn it into a ringtone for all kinds of phones. People don't care, because the $3 for the ringtone is nothing compared to the $1000+ they're paying for the phone over a 2 year contract.

    Speaking of which, is the music or the cellphone industry a bigger rip-off?

    1. Re:Which industry is more corrupt? by Pope · · Score: 1
      $0.99 per song isn't "cheap".

      Yes it is. I still have my "Funkytown" 45 from 1980, it cost CAN$1.49 at The Bay. Allowing for average inflation rates, that would cost over $3.00 today. $0.99 is a bargain for single songs.

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
  44. Not true by DoubleRing · · Score: 1

    You do hear about it again. It's just that the investigation takes time and the public eye doesn't return until later. I mean, if you got news every day about the SCO case...that's a lot of junk you'd be getting. Court cases take time, and most people don't care about all the junk that goes on. People just want to hear the important bits.

    --
    Before you die, you see DoubleRing...
  45. TAG AS DUPE by Reverend528 · · Score: 1

    Will someone with a subscription please tag this article as a dupe?

    1. Re:TAG AS DUPE by Devistater · · Score: 1

      k, done

  46. what about the prices of CDs by timerider · · Score: 1

    Over here, any "normal" audio CD (normal, as in "mainstream, not some rare collectors import"), costs an average of 15 euro. Thats as much as CDs did cost back in the 80ies when the CD itself was brand new technology, and during the 90ies you could buy actual titles (not "CBS best price" titles) for (converted) as low as 5 euro...

    'nuff said.

    1. Re:what about the prices of CDs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, ever heard of inflation? 15 bucks in the 80's was worth way more what it is today.

    2. Re:what about the prices of CDs by gsslay · · Score: 1
      CDs in the 80s cost around £15. That's more than 15 Euros, and 20 years ago. By today's prices that would be £35 (at a rough guess), or about 50 Euros.

      So CDs are a fraction of the cost they used to be. What was your point again?

  47. Label Profits are obsene by aprilsound · · Score: 1
    ...bandwidth, server cost, electricity to run the servers, backup system, ... They make, what? $0.10 per song or so I have heard.
    I believe it is Apple that makes $.10 per sale. Various sources (Google it) say that the label gets between $0.65 and $.85 per song. That's obsence profit, at no additional cost to the label.
  48. Postive Price == Collusion/Stupidity by woolio · · Score: 5, Informative

    I recently discovered for myself the used CD market on ebay.

    I have currently purchased about ~50 cds. I got most for about $3 - $4 each on average including shipping. Each CD is a full album (no singles). Most have 10-15 songs on them. Many come from shops specializing in the sale of used cds...

    Which means I'm paying about $0.30 per song. And to think that someone had to collect these CDs, figure out which ones were scratched, which not, advertise on ebay, put them into a box, and ship them to be via the postal mail...

    Even if 25% of the CD is so scratched up that my computer can't read it, I still come out -- way ahead. And I like to think that maybe I'm helping someone [non-RIAA] out... (which may/may not be the case)

    And to think that we currently have an *industry* selling electronic copies of songs for $0.99? Thery already had the digitized recording from the recording studios... Bandwidth these days is practically free. There is virtually no packaging or transportation cost. Very little human intervention is required....

    So are the music companies colluding? Maybe. Or maybe they are just exploiting the dumbness of their customers... These companies are large enough to **define** the market. They don't have to answer to supply & demand. The real crime is that the public puts up with this and asks for more...

    Does anyone remember how buying home VHS/DVD movies used to be expensive? $15-$20 US for a single movie? Lately, Wal-Mart has a huge crate in their electronics dept, filled with DVDs for ~$5-$7 each... (*renting* at blockbuster costs almost that much ~$4). When displayed like that, I realize how stilly this whole $$$ for IP thing really is... But when displayed neatly in nice packaging on a shelf, these videos somehow appear [to the public] to merit their price...

    Some might say the $5-$7 movies are crap... Well, what are most of downloadable songs selling for $0.99 EACH??? And movies cost far far more to produce than music...

    1. Re:Postive Price == Collusion/Stupidity by mgblst · · Score: 1

      Be honest, how many of those songs do you really like? If you really like every song on those cds (or even over 25%), then you are unique - and really easy to please.

      This is the advantage of the online system, NOT getting the whole album.

    2. Re:Postive Price == Collusion/Stupidity by woolio · · Score: 1

      I try to buy cds where I recognize and like 2-3 songs... [I'm not too good with names]

      For many, I like some of the others. If I don't, its not a huge loss.

  49. I Seem to Recall... by Greyfox · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Another price fixing invesigation of the music industry a couple of years back. If memory serves me correctly, the music industry got a slap on the wrist at the time, the price of a new CD didn't drop and the industry came up with (Apparently legal) new and interesting ways to expose millions of computers on the Internet to malicious intruders in the name of protecting their franchise.

    Come to think of it, the DOJ antitrust investigations really aren't what they used to be at all. When they smacked down IBM, they put the fear of God into the company! For decades after that IBM bent over backwards to obey the terms of their agreement with the department. Ever since then though, it seems like all the companies that get investigated and found guilty of anti-competitive behavior just shrug it off and keep doing what they were doing before.

    I don't know when exactly the DOJ lost the ability to scare the living hell out of a company like they did with IBM, but I think they need to get that ability back. Otherwise they're just wasting my tax dollars. I think the best way to do that is to make a particularly brutal example of the next company they investigate. What? You say it's the music industry? Well... OK then! Get to it, guys!

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  50. Bush to the mostly liberal music industry .... by blitziod · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    "Fu*K You!" they all vote democrat anyway..

    --
    The only way to bust a doper--is when you yourself become a smoker!
  51. Re:Do the Hustle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This may be legitimate. Remember, Bush owns an ipod. Maybe he is pissed about the price and sent Gonzales down to lay the smack down. He may have no clue how to run the country and have no clue how to work his ipod either, but he gets things done when he's angry. "It costs what?!" "They're enemy combatants. round 'em up. Send 'em to Gitmo." "God Bless America". I think that's exactly how it went down.

  52. Great idea!! by snowwrestler · · Score: 1

    Because Digg certainly never has dupes! (gag)

    --
    Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
  53. More bad assumptions by cirby · · Score: 1

    The common accepted price for CDs is about $10.

    When I go see local bands, they sell their CDs in the clubs for about $10 a pop.

    "I don't buy two more doublings from there to the stores."

    Then you don't know how business works. People need to make profit, and that includes things like making more on the popular CDs so you don't go out of business when you get stuck with a million dollars or so of crappys titles.

    "someone's going to come in and buy from the distributor and ship directly to their stores," ...and that's not going to happen. Big retailers don't want ot rely on other folks for prompt inventory fixes. They do beetter by buying a couple of hundred thousand copies of a CD for a little bit less per copy, then shipping it to their own distribution centers and rerouting it to their stores.

    All your model does is move the middleman over to the "middleman" of the warehouses of places like Best Buy and Target. Which is why you get new Cds for $10 at those places...

  54. Waste of time by geekee · · Score: 1

    I thought the music industry wanted variable pricing for music, and it was Apple that wanted to keep prices fixed at $0.99/song.

    --
    Vote for Pedro
    1. Re:Waste of time by MrPower · · Score: 3, Informative
      I thought the music industry wanted variable pricing for music, and it was Apple that wanted to keep prices fixed at $0.99/song.

      You are confusing price setting with price fixing. Most forms of price setting are legal - ultimately a manufacturer decides how much they want to charge for their product. Manufacturers cannot, however, legally dictate the final retail price (well, this is true in Australia). Of course, they can always could scuttle $0.99 downloads by refusing to sell tracks to apple under $0.99.

      Price fixing is when different companies in the same industry collude to artificially set the prices of goods at a price far higher than what normal market forces would dictate. It is usually difficult to prove as you need evidence of the collusion part. In production of goods, when a competitor raises prices, you can either maintain prices, hoping to steal market share or you can cash in by raising your prices too! In the music industry, the end products are not exact matches for each other - artists are generally not marketed under different labels so you would be incredibly stupid to try to steal market share!

      In many respects, selling music is the perfect encapsulation of Capitalism - "screw the customer for whatever you can!" - and as long as we keep paying what they ask, the labels will continue to do so.

  55. You're delusional. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So our great benefactor, Steve Jobs, is here to "protect consumers"? Get real and pull your fanboy head out of his ass. Clearly he wants to sell songs and iPods, and he's not going to do that at more than .99/song because at that point people would just start buying CDs again (or pirating more music). Which is exactly what the industry wants (not the pirating part). He's not protecting you; he's protecting himself. And when the time comes that your interests don't coincide with his own, he will sell you out faster than you can say "OMGZ it comes in white!!!"

  56. It's an artificial price. by argent · · Score: 1

    The common accepted price for CDs is about $10.

    The common accepted price for many products is artificially maintained. Your musicians have a completely different price structure to labels, and yet they sell in the same range, because they can, because that's the accepted price. Same reason a "CD" from iTMS costs "about $10".

    Many of the components of that $2.50 you started with are independant of the material on it, and the same whether they're CDs or DVDs or computer software (commercial, freeware, or shareware). The distribution and production is the same, no matter what you put on them. And yet some of these have "common accepted prices" of $5.00, of $10.00, of $20.00, ... and the cheapest are "royalty free" movies, on more expensive media.

    People need to make profit, and that includes things like making more on the popular CDs so you don't go out of business when you get stuck with a million dollars or so of crappys titles.

    Indeed, when the demand's high, you can charge more. We're not talking about charging more for popular CDs, and we're not talking about why they engage in price fixing, or even whether they should or shouldn't. We're just talking about how it happens, and the overly complex distribution mechanism is part of it.

    All your model does is move the middleman over to the "middleman" of the warehouses of places like Best Buy and Target.

    Their warehousing costs aren't $7.50 per item or they'd go out of business... most of their products cost less than that, and their margins aren't 300% or they'd be undersold. Like Apple, they negotiate with the labels for what they get to buy and sell stuff for, and they get to buy stuff at a price that lets them sell for the price the labels want them to sell it at. If they undercut them too much, they wouldn't get to start that high on the distribution chain.

  57. Re:Do the Hustle by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    That very well may be how Bush's little token scene played out, after Condi told him it costs $50 per song. After he told that stuff to Abu Gonzales, the Grand Inquisitor acted on those orders, fulfilling his earlier memo to Cheney that "we need a Pearl Harbor type event to kidnap the media moguls who don't just run the videos we make at the DoD Press Simulation Center".

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  58. Don't worry about the music industry... by RecycledElectrons · · Score: 1

    Don't worry about the music industry...They're connected with the Mob. Either the AG will find them innocent, and through the constitutional provision against re-trial, prevent any future actions...or he will be assasinated by the RIAA / MPAA / BSA thugs.

    I suspect that the bribes have already been sent.

    Andy Out!

  59. Just look at AT&T by Myria · · Score: 1

    Look at today's AT&T article... AT&T was split into pieces for being the most abusive monopoly since Standard Oil.. Now, AT&T is recombining itself with its former pieces to form the same thing.

    It's unlikely that AT&T will return to its former "glory" with the competition it now has, but it still shows the current administration's complete indifference towards abuse by megacompanies.

    Melissa

    --
    "Screw Sun, cross-platform will never work. Let's move on and steal the Java language." - Visual J++ Product Manager
  60. Re:Don't forget by jred · · Score: 1

    The agreement to purchase x CDs at full price over the course of the year. Those prices are higher than retail. Oh, they often have sales, but sale discs don't go towards filling your purchase quota. They aren't losing money. They've been around too long.

    --

    jred
    I'm not a mechanic but I play one in my garage...
  61. It's not price fixing by The_Mr_Flibble · · Score: 1

    The prices have to be high to combat piracy.
    Yes that's it.
    It worked last time.

  62. Re:Don't forget by tkrotchko · · Score: 1

    Actually, my "quota" was filled several years ago.

    And to answer your next question, the sale disks go towards "free" disks.

    I've only ever purchased 4 disks at full price ($16). The rest have been at $7, plus I still have 10 free ones available to me.

    I'm not really cheerleading for Sony/BMG, I only brought the whole thing up to show that the myth that companies would lose money selling CD's at less than $10 is not demonstrated by the fact that Sony/BMG routinely sells CD's at around $7 shipped to customers.

    --
    You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
  63. you fruity people... by infinite9 · · Score: 1

    Kiwi talk about something else?

    --
    Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
  64. $0.99 per song isn't "cheap" by argent · · Score: 1

    You're comparing a single, which has all the physical overhead of an album, with a digital download that has no overhead. You're comparing prices 25 years ago with prices today ... there's been a massive reduction in the price of anything that can be digitised.

    25 years ago a videodisc of Star Wars would have cost at least $35.00... that's typical for a single-disc release. Allowing for inflation that's what, $70? Today you can get that on DVD for $20. And a DVD of the top grossing film for 2004 (Shrek 2) is less than that.

    $0.99 isn't "cheap".

  65. Warped view of capitalism by SonicSpike · · Score: 1

    I don't know how capitalism = "screwing the customer".

    In any basic business or marketing class you are first taught that a transaction only takes place when BOTH parties agree that there is a net gain to themselves. In otherwords the seller only sells if there is a benefit to him, and the buyer only buys if there is benefit to himself.

    But remember the music industry isn't 100% based on capitalism because they have a government granted monolopy thus they can charge practically whatever they want since they control the (legal) supply of product.

    In true capitalism, if you continue to "screw the customers" you don't stay in business very long.

    --
    Libertas in infinitum