Ebay and Microsoft Fight Software Piracy

illeism writes "E-commerce News is reporting that Microsoft is going after Ebay sellers offering pirated copies of Microsoft software. From the article 'The suits do not name eBay as a defendant and Microsoft indicated that it has received extensive cooperation from the auction giant in the past as it tried to ferret out piracy. In fact, Microsoft said it asked eBay to remove some 50,000 suspicious auctions during 2005 alone ... The suits are mainly against individuals and cover alleged counterfeit sales of several Microsoft programs, including Windows and Office XP and older versions, such as Office 2000.'" More interestingly, the article flatly states that MS has no hope of ending piracy. The suits are apparently meant to 'protect consumers'.

Comments

More M$ Hooey

[TripMaster Monkey]

This article is so slanted, it's positively perpendicular.

From TFA:

Piracy is in fact becoming more dangerous for end users, with hacked or illegal versions often containing malicious code that can be used to infect PCs with viruses or to install Trojan horses that can be used to steal private data, Yankee Group analyst Laura DiDio said.

Yes, of course....this incentive is to protect the consumer...not the multi-billion dollar software giant the Yankee Group is actually beholden to. 'Won't somebody think of the children', indeed. It's clear that if you have reservations about this in any way, you are un-american and hate our children. Why do you hate our children? Why do you hate America?

Here's another gem from TFA:

Many of the suits were sparked by the company's Windows Genuine Advantage (WGA) program, a program launched last year to let buyers of software determine whether it is properly licensed. Buyers who learned their programs were not genuine then helped Microsoft by providing information on the sellers.

Replace 'let' with 'force', and we might have a statement approaching truth. Checking if your Windows install was legal used to be entirely voluntary. WGA is voluntary only in the sense of 'you don't need to participate...and we don't need to give you non-critical updates'. This is analogous to a bank requiring your SS number to open an account, despite the fact that that number was meant soley for government use, and never designed for that sort of application. When asked why a SS number is required, when in fact, this requirement is illegal, bank managers invariably reply, "oh...you have every right to refuse to divulge your SS number...as we have every right to decline your account application". Same situation.

And finally:

By its own admission, Microsoft is unlikely to significantly dent the software piracy industry with lawsuits against individuals.

That depends on your definition of significant. Any headway they make is likely to save them much more than it costs, and that's all Microsoft really cares about in the final analysis....not stamping out piracy...not 'protecting the children', but enhancing the bottom line.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[Alex P Keaton in da]

You can hate Microsoft all you want- But independent of that, I think it is reasonable that a company would go after people selling counterfeit products in an open forum. Look at what Tiffany and Co. is doing to Ebay.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[altoz]

Yes, of course....this incentive is to protect the consumer...

it isn't really even a consumer, it's a potential software pirate.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[jdreed1024]

This is analogous to a bank requiring your SS number to open an account, despite the fact that that number was meant soley for government use, and never designed for that sort of application. When asked why a SS number is required, when in fact, this requirement is illegal, bank managers invariably reply, "oh...you have every right to refuse to divulge your SS number...as we have every right to decline your account application

I agree with most of your arguments, but that's a poor comparison. The SSN is your Tax Identification Number (and if you're a business opening a bank account, they require your company's TIN). Interest on bank accounts has to be reported to the IRS, and banks need your SSN to do it. They're one of the few places (along with any potential employer) that has a legitimate reason to ask for your SSN.

Better examples of places that have no good reason to ask for it are your cell phone provider, electric company, cable company, etc. Yes, in some states, they can't require it and can force you to pay a deposit instead, but other states have no such protection. Even some supermarkets are asking for it for their "rewards" or "coupon" keychain tags.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[Half a dent]

True. But I have purchased DVDs and software on ebay, some are blatently copies but some sell as the real deal only to be fake - these are what piss me off.

I buy used DVDs because I don't care if I'm the first person to see it or not and I can get a title for 33% of retail this way but about every third DVD I get turns out to be a pirated copy. To be fair some of these are really high quality BUT some are filmed at the multiplex in glorious shakeycam (TM) with added foreign subtitles (non removable) thrown in at no extra cost.

I want to pay a "fair" price. A fair price for used or OEM software is not the same as a CDR with a photocopied licence code.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[shmlco]

"This article is so slanted, it's positively perpendicular."

And so you decided that we need the opposite slant? Or are you saying customers need to be able to buy Windows software with loggers and viruses pre-installed, or that they're demanding software that can't be upgraded and patched?

If some guy is trying to sell me "new" "never-out-of-the-box" software that's not, he deserves to be caught and punished. Infected and pirated software, doubly so.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[SCHecklerX]

Microsoft would not be where it is today if people hadn't 'stolen' their software. They LOVE that they are now so prolific, in no small part due to piracy for use in the home. This is especially true of Microsoft Office products.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[Alex P Keaton in da]

Regarding SSNs, correct me if I am wrong, but anyone who pulls your credit report will want your ssn. My cable company doesn't need it- They don't have a contract. My cell phone company "needs" it because they pull your credit report before you can get a phone... (At least they did when I go my phone from Cellular One in 1995- Which Became AirTouch, Which Became Verizon- so I have always just renewed).
What irritated me most was in college when they made you put your ssn on exams...
And as far as those rewards cards keychains- I spelled my name wrong on the application (but close enough that it was still delivered to my desk- I gave them my work address) and made up an SSN... So I get to stick it to the man! I get my Diet Pepsi 24 packs at 2 for $10 (non card holders pay 6.99 a piece!!!) and they still aint got my SSN.... Alex 1 : Giant Eagle 0
And mmmmm that Diet Pepsi is crisp and refreshing!

Re:More M$ Hooey

[rolfwind]

That depends - can you sell your copy of Windows (the CD) on ebay, if you don't want it on your computer? Or does ebay kick it off?

These days, you don't even get a normal CD-rom anymore but a manufacture's CD specific to your model - so it's just Microsoft enforcing it's new computer tax even further.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[TripMaster Monkey]

Or are you saying customers need to be able to buy Windows software with loggers and viruses pre-installed,

Marvelous misrepresentation, but no, I'm not saying that. All I was doing was taking Microsoft and Yankee Group to task regarding the alleged motive for this initiative. They claim it's to 'protect the consumer'...I maintain that it's to protect Microsoft's bottom line. The argument may be offered that the two aren't mutually exclusive...that protecting customers from pirated software serves to increase the customers' trust in Microsoft products, thus enhancing their bottom line, but ultimately, that's an argument that supports, rather than opposes, my central statement.

Now, I don't have any problem with M$ trying to make a semi-honest buck...after all, they are a corporation, and that's what corporations do...just as wolves kill and eat rabbits...it's their nature, and there's nothing immoral about it. But please, don't feed me a cock-and-bull story about how you're trying to 'protect the consumer', as if that is your primary motive...this is like the wolves trying to tell me they're killing the rabbits to keep them from eating the vegetables in my garden.

or that they're demanding software that can't be upgraded and patched?

Again, nice misrepresentation, but since it's Microsoft themselves who instituted the policy denying non-critical updates to users who can't or won't validate their software, this is a non-argument.

If some guy is trying to sell me "new" "never-out-of-the-box" software that's not, he deserves to be caught and punished. Infected and pirated software, doubly so.

Two words: Caveat Emptor.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[1u3hr]

are you saying customers need to be able to buy Windows software with loggers and viruses pre-installed, or that they're demanding software that can't be upgraded and patched?

That's mostly FUD. I've never heard of any malicious stuff in bootlegs, except in articles like this sourced from the BSA.

If some guy is trying to sell me "new" "never-out-of-the-box" software that's not, he deserves to be caught and punished.

Yes, if they've misrepresented it.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[spongebue]

Don't get me wrong, I hate M$ as much as the next slashdotter, but so what if they are just trying to keep their profits? Any company would probably do the same. If you own a store and people are shoplifting, you install security detectors. It's not like the RIAA, where they are suing the hell out of your average Joe. (my apologies to anybody named "Joe" and always being called average)

Re:More M$ Hooey

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely, at a place I work, they have two copies of Office 2000 + SP3 on CD. There are about 4 workstations. Now, this is a 'mild' case, of pirating one copy (used to be two, but the other machine went to an OSX work station and got the crippled Academic Edition).

Do they plan on upgrading? The OS, probably as new machines roll in and out. Their office suite? Heck no, what they have is more than adequate to their needs, even if it is 4+ years old.

Heck, I've even got a few legit copies of Office98 still in their shrink wrap around here somewhere (along with copies of Win95 sr2, NT4, and Win2000 ... you'd be amazed at how many shrinkwraped packages people never open and just discard). Maybe I can offer them on eBey? :)

Re:More M$ Hooey

[Ubergrendle]

Although I agree that Microsoft's primary concern is to protect their marketshare and revenue, i don't think its fair to paint their other concerns in a nefarious light.

If, as an unwitting noobie user, price compare (as I would with any other product) and find a cheaper price online at eBay, I'd probably buy it. Best price wins, right? Except Microsoft holds a monopoly and fixes the prices effectively... so it doesn't really benefit you to shop around. Buying cheap on eBay is a risky venture.

Also, trojans, spyware, etc ARE indeed loaded on these questionable packages. How many ISOs of WinXP are floating around the net? How many would you actually trust?

I have problems with a) microsoft price-fixing, b) anti-trust practices with OEMs, and c) overly restrictive (and probably illegal anyways) end user agreements. But that doesn't mean that stopping piracy for profit is illegitimate.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[value_added]

Checking if your Windows install was legal used to be entirely voluntary. WGA is voluntary only in the sense of 'you don't need to participate...and we don't need to give you non-critical updates'. This is analogous to say ...

IIRC, the WGA program was instituted to mitigate losses from the resellers on eBay and elsewhere who sold systems with a non-licensed install of XP. Given how widespread that practice was/is, the WGA program in conjunction with Microsoft's other efforts seems perfectly fair and consistent. From a consumer's standpoint, buying a used PC with no O/S installed is a deal-breaker, and discovering that their copy of XP isn't legit can be bit of shock, to say nothing of the predicament of no installation or "restore" CD.

As for the updates issue, I'm in agreement that it's problematic and at the very least, questionable on any number of grounds.

Personally, I think it the whole subject stinks. I've stuck with Windows 2000 and have recommend others to do the same (installing it for friends and non-paying clients when possible), but those days are numbered. Similarly, obtaining and maintaining a VLK or otherwised warezed copy is probably more trouble than it's worth, though somebody more knowledgable in that regard can correct me. Looking forward to Vista, it seems to me that the only options that remain are to take it sitting down, or make the break and switch to Linux.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[Anonymous Coward]

Alex 1 : Giant Eagle 0

Does the Giant Eagle have large talons?

Re:More M$ Hooey

[Anonymous Coward]

Giant Eagle is a fairly large Grocery Chain. I apologize for not specifying.
www.gianteagle.com
I always forget that supermarket chains are (mostly) regional...

Re:More M$ Hooey

[maotx]

I spelled my name wrong on the application (but close enough that it was still delivered to my desk- I gave them my work address) and made up an SSN... So I get to stick it to the man! I get my Diet Pepsi 24 packs at 2 for $10 (non card holders pay 6.99 a piece!!!) and they still aint got my SSN

Or you could have just used someone elses.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[Anonymous Coward]

Given all of that, can I safely assume you have no problem with people violating the GPL or other OSS licenses then?

Re:More M$ Hooey

[Anonymous Coward]

So you advocate theft? Anything against MS is ok but when someone breaks a GPL license go after them? Wow that's hypocritical.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[Anonymous Coward]

How the hell did this get modded informative? The only people who "need" your Social Security Number are those paying into Social Security for you.
Your Social Security Number is your Social Security Number, not you Tax Identification Number. It has been misappropriated to be used as other things. An individual can get a TIN just like a company can, but since you can only get a TIN once, best be certain you want it and use it to your best interest.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

The best quote of all:
The suits do not name eBay as a defendant and Microsoft indicated that it has received extensive cooperation from the auction giant in the past as it tried to ferret out piracy.

This next portion of the article was edited out: The Microsoft representative then cracked each knuckle, one at a time. He continued, "You see, we have ways of convincing people to cooperate."

Re:More M$ Hooey

[gutnor]

It is a potential software pirate that was at least 'willing' to be a consumer.

The problem is with EBay auctions pretending to sell an original Windows copy.
If you go on EBay and *buy* a pirated copy of windows like this, you were most likely a genuine interested customer that really though that was a bargain. ( The argument is simple and I have seen it work in real life, not on ebay : a guy just pretend to be a Linux only user and want to get his money back on the Windows he got with his DELL laptop - selling it "cheap" because M$ Sucks )
People seem to trust deeply EBay, and shut their brain off when they see the bargain$$. (see that other story on slashdot : http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/13/052821 4)

For those guys, Microsoft is indeed protecting a 'customer'. ( In the past Microsoft would exchange you a pirated version of Windows for a Real one if you proofed you had been scammed )

On the other hand, to use ebay you need internet access so it is likely that the software pirate wanabe probably helps himself with the countless pirated version available online for free or for $ in some other underground scam.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[LeonGeeste]

Better examples of places that have no good reason to ask for it are your cell phone provider, electric company, cable company, etc. Yes, in some states, they can't require it and can force you to pay a deposit instead

My electric company demanded my SSN and STILL required a deposit. Why? Because I have "no credit history". Yeah, damn me for saving my money instead of going into debt. Who the **** do I think I am, staying out of debt? That's un-American!

What is up with treating people who stay out of debt as bad risks?

Re:More M$ Hooey

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't it up to the business to report taxable income, etc. Why is the bank doing legwork for the government? What you report should be up to you, banks are supposed to be neutral, they're not supposed to divulge your information to anyone, ever. Oh, but 'thats just the way it is.'

Re:More M$ Hooey

[kryptx]

Yes, but it might be a legitimate consumer who doesn't realize they are purchasing pirated software. So while they would technically be a software pirate, they would be unwittingly so.

Also, you have to understand that protecting customers IS actually in the best interest of the company, and it isn't just a mild side effect of their "real", supposedly greedy ambitions. If a naive consumer unknowingly purchased a pirated copy of windows (thinking it was legit), and it turned out to contain viruses or trojans, couldn't that significantly tarnish the reputation of the company? What company in their right mind would allow anybody to pass off malicious software as having been provided by that company?

It'd be like me distributing RHEL with a rootkit and calling it RHEL. You and I both know RedHat would not stand for it.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[quarkscat]

Piracy? Really?

So if a consumer (individual or corporate) buys a shiny new computer BUNDLED with the
OEM OS, the OEM OFFICE SUITE, etcetera and decides that he/she/they did NOT actually
want to pay (or wanted a rebate on) the proverbial MICROSOFT tax imposed (and perhaps
install LINUX or SOLARIS x86 instead), they will be prosecuted for being a GRAY MARKET
source of MS software (as opposed to BLACK MARKET)?

Whatever happened to the concept of FAIR USE?
I do know that M$ License 6 tries to tie their OS and other software to a specific computer,
but is that actually LEGAL?

It looks more to me like MICROSOFT is actually trying to prop up their RETAIL distribution
channels and their related PRICE FIXING monopoly, rather than a new attempt at combatting
PIRACY.

Of course, in this day and time, UP == DOWN, BLUE == BLACK, RIGHT == WRONG, and
PEACE == WAR. How ... Orwellian!

Re:More M$ Hooey

[AnObfuscator]

Yes, of course....this incentive is to protect the consumer...not the multi-billion dollar software giant the Yankee Group is actually beholden to. 'Won't somebody think of the children', indeed. It's clear that if you have reservations about this in any way, you are un-american and hate our children. Why do you hate our children? Why do you hate America?

That depends on your definition of significant. Any headway they make is likely to save them much more than it costs, and that's all Microsoft really cares about in the final analysis....not stamping out piracy...not 'protecting the children', but enhancing the bottom line.

Wow. Where to even start.

Ok. Chain of events: shifty online retailer falsely markets a product. The deceived consumer purchases this product. When the product doesn't work, the customer loses his money.

It happens all the time... it has happened to several people I know. Software piracy has hurt consumers. So, this large corporation sees a way to improve it's bottom line by helping consumers. I'm sorry, I think this is a rather *good* thing. In fact, it should be encouraged. I think companies making money by helping consumers is much preferable to either of the alternatives, don't you?

Microsoft isn't a good company. But your knee-jerk "hurr microsoft bad hurr" is completely off the mark. Reservations? Why would you have reservations about a company using legal (and ethical) methods to protect itself and its customers from illegal (and unethical) behavior? Good job working in the red herring and ad hominim, at any rate.

As for WGA... yes, I think it is stupid, and a hassle, and is yet another way Windows makes itself a complete PITA and thorn in my side. On the other hand, it is also another side-benefit of using Kubuntu and OSX as my primary OS's. ;-)

For what it's worth, I'm glad MS is cracking down on this kind of piracy. This isn't "sharing", it's fucking people over, and it really needs to stop. So, as rarely as these words escape my lips, go MS.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[Dionysus]

I take it you missed this article. You're not being un-American, you are being a terrorist supporter.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but if you send piracy spam with headers intact, it's bounced because the spambot thinks you're sending spam.

Recently, I decided to send a message in plaintext telling them the spam was ROT-13 so it wouldn't trip the spambot.

One would hope they could handle ROT-13 pretty easily and would at least appreciate someone finding a way to get spam past their spam detection system.

A number of cryptic messages, none having anything to do with the subject at hand have been returned.

Sending plaintext, asking for advice or confirmation drops into the bit bucket whereas several months ago I asked (in plaintext) if there was a way to report piracy spam because of their filter and they said, "we're working on it". I interpreted this to mean, "go pound sand". By keeping piracy@microsoft.com available, they can claim they're available to deal with piracy and can pursue others elsewhere. Otherwise, someone could claim if they are truly interested in fighting piracy, why don't they present an opportunity for people to report these events.

It makes me wonder if Zippy the Pinhead is in charge of that division.

Happy POETS Day!

Re:More M$ Hooey

[Anonymous Coward]

Your bank requires your SSN for IRS reporting purposes. Every year the bank reminds you of this with the little piece of paper saying how much interest you earned. Nothing controversial here.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[BigAssRat]

Replace 'let' with 'force', and we might have a statement approaching truth. Checking if your Windows install was legal used to be entirely voluntary. WGA is voluntary only in the sense of 'you don't need to participate...and we don't need to give you non-critical updates'.

Check again. You can easily turn off WIndows Genuine Advantage and still get automatic updates. And NOT by hacking your Windows, but by legimately turning off the feature in IE with Managed Add-Ons. Check it out, you may learn something.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[Castar]

I've heard that your ID when you get a reward card isn't that important, actually, because the supermarket systems simply tie together the reward card and the credit cards you use to purchase groceries to create a "family ID". They're not too worried about having your exact identity, what they want is just to make sure they know about your shopping habits as a data point. But in any case, they get your name when you use a credit card to buy stuff.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[kraut]

Let's get back to the basics:

A company produces a software product. amd sells it under specified conditions and at a specified cost.

Someone breaks those conditions and illegaly copies the software and sells it on.

Why shouldn't the company sue the person infringing you're copyright? We're all gung-ho on /. when it comes to GPL infringers; the same rules apply to commercial software.

Morally, if not legally, I'm prepared to make certain compromises for personal installations, but if you're selling a copyrighted product illegaly, you deserve everything that's coming to you, and good luck to Microsoft.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[aiken_d]

Are you really expressing shock and outrage that a public corporation is focused on the bottom line? Um, yeah -- if combatting piracy cost more than it earned, they wouldn't do it. You've really, er, made a point there. A rather obvious point to get all fired up about, in my opinion, but whatever floats your boat.

Just for kicks, can you elabortate on your moral outrage that Microsoft would refuse to give free updates for software that wasn't paid for? And how, exactly, did you get from a software company wanting to validate that a user asking for updates actually paid for the software to the (false) claim that it's illegal for banks to run a credit report before allowing someone to open an account?

(FYI, it is illegal for banks to require a social security number as an account identifier; it is perfectly legal for them to check and see if you represent an unwanted credit risk. And all banking is credit; even a savings account can be abused.)

Is there any rationale there at all, or just general anti-everything zealotry?

-b

Re:More M$ Hooey

[RobertM1968]

MS goes above and beyond this though. I personally, while I was running my own business, have gotten threatening letters from Microsoft "advising" me they were sending people to audit my machines to ensure every copy of Windows I had was licensed. I've logged numerous probes from their servers as well. Oddly, (in their mind I guess), I had 0 copies of Windows on my machines (all OS/2, eComStation and MacOS - and a Linux box off and on), owned 30 licenses (from OEM bundled versions that were wiped and removed in favor of OS/2 and eComStation as well as numerous purchased (by us) but unsold retail versions). I reminded them (1) they are not a law enforcement agency, (2) advised them any entry by their personnel would be refused and any successful attempt to do so would be considered criminal tresspass, and (3) advised them that IBM can verify all licenses to the OS I run on all Intel based hardware - none of which being Windows of any flavor even though I own numerous unused licenses.

MS Followup - a threat letter with exhorbitant dollar amounts for each machine they find *when* they come to do their audit considering I wouldnt willingly allow them to (ie: "we are auditing you anyway"). My response (1) You ARENT doing your audit - period - so your stated fines are as irrelevant as your belief you will be provided entry into my building, (2) I dont run Windows - and you dont administer the licenses to OS/2 or eComStation - talk to IBM if you have complaints so they too can tell you where you can put your audit, and (3) any MS employee entering my store without my written permission whether for the purpose of a formal or informal audit or otherwise will be arrested for tresspass as you have already been advised you are not permitted entry or access to my store, and finally (4) any legal claims made that initiate a legal entity's carrying out of your audit will result in a suit for all lost time, frivoulous charges (as you have already been advised we do not run Windows and have provided proof of license for numerous unused copies that WE have not requested credit for as we are entitled to) as well as suit for claims that infer, imply or outright state (as in the case of your 2 last letters) that we are pirating your software.

No response after that.

Earlier, a major vendor of mine was sued by them for installing illegal copies of Windows and numerous of their customers (me included) received letters advising us that the software we were receiving was stolen. MS lost the suit as every copy was authentic - and the company later went out of business due to lost revenue because of lost customers and legal fees that had yet to be recouped (and purchsed by a few employees for next to nothing). MS sent them an "apology" (more like a "we are glad that we have found all your copies of Windows are being purchased legitimately and thus will levy no fines against you" letter). Did they send a followup or retraction to my vendor's customers that they had advised were receiving illegal copies? No. A letter to the vendor, and a news bulletin buried on MS's site.

MS goes well overboard in its attempts to find illegal software - often using illegal means (attempted hacking into others computers, letters that state "we are going to come into your business and conduct an audit" (as opposed to requesting cooperation in allowing them to), et al.

It's been a very sad time when companies like MS/BSA and Sony/RIAA are not being held accountable for their actions, damages caused (fighting them, winning, trying to survive long enough to recoup legal fees - much less sue for damages is an impossibility for most small to mid sized companies), allowing evidence obtained under threat, misrepresentation of the powers granted a company (that properly belong to law enforcement agencies), admission of illegally obtained logs, records and information from peoples machines into court.

-Robert

Good thing they're putting a stop to that!

[Rob T Firefly]

It's always heartbreaking to see people pay money for MS products.

Apply the Laura DiDio Filter

[Silver Sloth]

I make it a strong personal policy to completely disbeleive anything with Laura Didio's name associated with it. She's long been a special friend of Grocklaw

Re:Apply the Laura DiDio Filter

[davebert]

Or maybe you meant GrokLaw?

Re:Apply the Laura DiDio Filter

[Silver Sloth]

Er... maybe I did. Friday afternoon post pub finger trouble!

I understand.

[Kranfer]

As a programmer, I understand where Mico$oft is coming from. I wouldn't want someone stealing my code and making a profit off of it by stealing my programs. My Question is, why does it seem that the Tri-State COmputer Show here in NY always seems to have pirated software/OEM software (without the hardware piece) for sale and they never get in trouble? Theres something fishy there... But not to digress, I think that Microsoft is doing a good thing by attempting to stop piracy.

Re:I understand.

[Pofy]

>I wouldn't want someone stealing my code

I can understand you, it is so much work having to type it all in again afterwards and if you don't remember it all correctly, you will not end up with the same program again...

>by stealing my programs

Easier, just recompile and you have your program back again! Unless they stole you code as well, then you are back to retyping it all agian first.

Re:I understand.

[Anonymous Coward]

If making a copy of some code you made is stealing your programs... How do you call a someone breaking into your house, taking your code, listings and every backups you have ?

Re:I understand.

[Jesus_666]

It's trivial to identify eBay sellers who stole Windows. Just look for someone sellling CD masters or power auctions with several thousand copies.

Re:I understand.

[DrEldarion]

Can people on Slashdot stop being pedantic for once? It's blatantly obvious what he means. You're just making yourself look foolish by pretending you don't.

Re:I understand.

[woolio]

I once saw similar things at our local computer show -- burned CDs in jewel cases with photocopied covers for Windows/Office software.. And they were real cheap [~$20].

I don't like Microsoft's activation stuff. And I've even read stories where people have to go out and buy new copies of Office/Windows because their motherboard died and windows detected the change. I suspect the Windows Update site is exchanging more info than what they claim.

On the other hand, I have no sympathy for thes bastards selling phony stuff as the real thing and profiting off of it.

Re:I understand.

[digitallife]

Get over it. Using the term 'stealing' is inaccurate and unfair, and you make yourself look like a shill and asshat by pretending otherwise.

Re:I understand.

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, I know you're all upset because you're too weak-minded to fathom that a word could be used in multiple ways, but don't take that out on everyone else.

Re:I understand.

[killjoe]

It would be trivial for MS to stop pirating. They already have a unique serial number, they already have a massive IT infrastructure. All they have to do is the shut down windows if it's already registered to somebody else. If people call in to register just check the database and refuse to give them a key if it's already registered.

I have news for you. MS wants windows to be pirated. Not by anybody in the US or the rest of the "first world", we are here to be milked so we can subsidize people stealing in africa or india. Everbody else is welcome to steal all the copies of windows they want.

If MS ever actually wanted to stop piracy and did it would be the best day ever for open source.

Re:I understand.

[Anonymous Coward]

I like how in the face of cold reality, you resort to insults. Really your comment made no sense.

Re:I understand.

[Pofy]

>Can people on Slashdot stop being pedantic for once? It's blatantly obvious
>what he means.

It is blatantly obvious I was not serious in my post. I don't agreee he was "obvious" though. Perhaps you could enlighten us what he would type if he actually DID mean the files was stolen?

I'm glad they are doing this..

[Tominva1045]

The upside for smaller software companies is that law governing this kind of activity is more fully developed. Down the road this may help them if they find themselves in the same situation.

Just because technology allows copying of 1's and 0's doesn't mean one should do so.

Here's a question- if MS software is disliked by so many then why do so many pirate it?

Re:I'm glad they are doing this..

[Anonymous Coward]

That is easy, they can't afford to pay for it. Duh.

Re:I'm glad they are doing this..

[Rob T Firefly]

Here's a question- if MS software is disliked by so many then why do so many pirate it?

Maybe for the same reason so many people steal cable TV service even though there's really nothing good on to watch. Most average consumers really don't see an alternative to using Windows. I keep a Windows box up and running so I can dependably run some of my favorite apps and games, the next person may have to keep Windows in order to take their Windows-based work home, and so forth. It's just too ubiquitous for many people.

Re:I'm glad they are doing this..

[cliffski]

A very sensible post. It always makes me laugh when people say "your software suxxorz you cant stop us warezing it". If its so bad, WHY pirate it?
Windows is a complex bit of kit. I dont mind paying for a full proper legal version.

Re:I'm glad they are doing this..

[bzipitidoo]

because technology allows copying of 1's and 0's

we should find another way to profit from such labor. Laws of nature trump laws of man. Trying to outlaw copying is about as effective as State of Indiana House Bill #286 which stipulated that pi = 3.

Re:I'm glad they are doing this..

[misleb]

The upside for smaller software companies is that law governing this kind of activity is more fully developed. Down the road this may help them if they find themselves in the same situation.

But by then, software piracy would be so insigificant it wouldn't matter. And for all we know, piracy is one of the things keeps these software giants going. If a lot of people using pirated software actually had to pay for it, they might start seriously consider open source software of less expensive alternatives. Consider an amateur software developer looking to develop on Windows. He wants to get the full suite to get his feet wet, but it costs $1000 (or whatever it is). If he coiuldn't get it pirated, he might seriously consider booting one of the many free OS's with free development tools. Hell, or even Mac OS. Apple pretty much gives away their developer tools.

-matthew

Re:I'm glad they are doing this..

[Anonymous Coward]

Most end users do not see Windows as being so bad. In fact, after the deluge of viruses/worms/adware/spyware of the past few years, the new way of thought among the masses is that having viruses and adware is an annoyance, but a tolerable one -- effectively, they do not perceive a problem until they are completely unable to use their computers.

In another strange twist, for some reason, nobody thinks that FOSS is good because they don't have to pay for it. They would rather get a free (pirated!) copy of MS-Office than a free, legal copy of OpenOffice.

Saying that something must be good if people want it is a patently bad idea. Remember VHS/Betamax? Betamax having superior quality but VHS being marketed better?

Re:I'm glad they are doing this..

[aussersterne]

if MS software is disliked by so many then why do so many pirate it?

I keep Windows around, specifically to:

- Be able to run BIOS and firmware upgrades for my PC
- Clean/align the printheads on my inkjet printer
- Access Windows-only documents/networks used by government

Does this mean I like Windows? HELL NO, I wish to @#($@#&%! that manufacturers would release firmware upgrades I can run from Linux, that inkjet printer manufacturers would port their printer utility kits to Linux, and that governments would use open document formats.

Instead, I have to pay the M$ tax to accomplish necessary tasks that suffer from no natural barrier to being accomplished without M$. M$ has just managed to achieve a very favorable position (in large part through marketing--always questionable--and underhanded business tactics) and I have to suffer for it.

Re:I'm glad they are doing this..

[BigAssRat]

Here's a question- if MS software is disliked by so many then why do so many pirate it? I would prefer to pirate Linux, but it is harder to do.

At least for now...

[torokun]

"MS has no hope of ending piracy."

At least until they implement end-to-end hardware-supported trusted computing, with laws making it illegal to circumvent or produce analog peripherals.

Re:At least for now...

[ch-chuck]

In other startling news, Police Chief Harris announced, "We have no hope of ending crime - but we struggle on to CONTAIN it lest anarchy prevail". Film at 11.

Re:At least for now...

[debest]

At least until they implement end-to-end hardware-supported trusted computing, with laws making it illegal to circumvent or produce analog peripherals.

They'll won't do this, because Microsoft relys on piracy to perpetuate its demand. They know perfectly well that if they actually make it impossible (or even very difficult) to pirate Windows, a LOT of people will suddenly become interested in Linux. This is the last thing MS wants: they need Windows to be the "only" OS that the vast majority of users run, or even know much about.

This is an order of magnitude even more important in Asia and the developing world, where just about all MS software is pirated. They're fine with this situation: if they were to clamp down, no one would buy it (way too expensive in the local economy) and it would cause Linux to become the "standard" OS in a significant chunk of the world. Then they would have no hope of stamping it out for good worldwide with IP laws.

In short, Windows will always be easy to pirate, at least until it becomes illegal to use anything else. That may be coming, but not for quite some time.

Re:At least for now...

[BigAssRat]

I can't wait to make an analog copy of my Windows disc. I bet is sounds like a breeze blowing through a green hilly field.

Automated complaints?

[mwvdlee]

In fact, Microsoft said it asked eBay to remove some 50,000 suspicious auctions during 2005 alone.

So are these human emplyees that are manually reading, inspecting and analysing all the individual auctions, sending the removal requests by hand or is there some automated system replying to anything containing "Windows"? Is it illegal to resell your original copy of Windows?

Re:Automated complaints?

[eht]

If it is an OEM copy then it is at least against the EULA, and most people have OEM copies.

Re:Automated complaints?

[Bomarc]

I've had my software sold on eBay pulled by M$. The claim was that the software was pirated. The ad stated that the software was genuine; CD was real w/ key, box and license. But I wasn't sure that it had all of the paperwork. M$ then claimed that this was a "Pirated" copy. I got in contact with the person at M$, and after a few words, offered to bring it over. He declined. I asked how I could tell if I had all of the advertising papers, and he said that was my responsibility. M$ has an interesting definition of what is "Pirated".

Re:Automated complaints?

[Pofy]

>If it is an OEM copy then it is at least against the EULA, and most people
>have OEM copies.

Perhaps they have never agreed to it, perhaps they have terminated their agreement (thus not in force any more) or perhaps there was something that made the EULA or that particular part not valid, perhaps they disagreed to it when presented, perhaps there are some other reason that makes it possible to sell it...

Re:Automated complaints?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Pirated" is anything they had made that they don't make money from when money changes hands for it.

Re:Automated complaints?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have unwanted licenses from laptop preinstalls that were replaced with linux before booting or accepting any EULA. These typically only came with install discs which in itself is a violation of my resale rights under European law.

I've also found it easier to run keygens than activate XP, especially on upgraded emachines (where the vendor demonstrated utter contempt for the end user by locking the system restore to the bios). In this case, a user would IMHO be perfectly fine to purchase a resold OEM copy to use their licensed Windows install which was definately not supplied fit for purpose.

Re:Automated complaints?

[HaydnH]

You are allowed to sell just the paper license if you want and keep the CD - of course you will no longer have the right to use that CD unless you have another license. It's perfectly legal to have only 1 copy of the Windows media but multiple licenses!

Re:Automated complaints?

[drinkypoo]

The licensing agreement is not the license. You have a legal right to keep the CD even if you don't have the license. Proving it, of course, is another matter.

Re:Automated complaints?

[Keeper]

Let me get this straight: You listed the product the same way every pirate does and were suprised when you were treated like one?

It makes sense

[DarkNemesis618]

Also realize that counterfeit software more than likely has hacked CD Keys. Microsoft does not want people buying this hacked software only to find out that it doesn't work like it should. Microsoft doesn't want that simply because it could make the customer (who was a fool to buy it on ebay in the first place) think that it's Microsoft's fault. Because then the customer would have wasted money and be pissed off at Microsoft. All debates on how good or bad Microsoft products are aside, from a business standpoint, counterfeit software can hurt any software company, Microsoft or otherwise.

Re:It makes sense

[Billosaur]

Also realize that counterfeit software more than likely has hacked CD Keys. Microsoft does not want people buying this hacked software only to find out that it doesn't work like it should.

Or worse, contains a payload it shouldn't, like a keylogger. Rule #1 of eBay is "Buyer Beware." My wife has only recently gotten into eBay and been burned a few times buying those "too-good-to-be-true" items only to be sadly disappointed. I tried to tell her. Buying software on eBay s just a bad idea.

Re:It makes sense

[drooling-dog]

Because then the customer would have wasted money and be pissed off at Microsoft.

I did both of those things back when I used to run Windows, and my copy was perfectly legit.

Re:It makes sense

[booch]

That seems like a silly argument.

1. Is there any evidence that people buying pirated copies of Microsoft software are receiving "hacked" versions containing malware or inferior code?

2. When it's so cheap to simply copy bits, where is the incentive for a seller to spend a lot of time and effort modifying code?

3. If there was malware on the disc, I would think most people would realize that it was because they bought a pirated copy, not because Microsoft put it there.

Re:It makes sense

[Kelson]

Good point. People are quickest to blame the most visible target.

Windows crashes daily? It must be Microsoft's fault. Of course, it could turn out to be the badly-written driver for your scanner, or some software surreptitiously installed by a Sony CD. But while some of us will dig deeper, looking for the cause, most people are just going to see that Windows is crashing, and why the hell would Microsoft write such shoddy software anyway.

Similarly, people will try out Firefox, go to their favorite "designed"-for-IE site, and blame Firefox for displaying it incorrectly, not the site for using the HTML equivalent of spit and bailing wire that just happens to look OK in MSIE 6.0.

So even if the software is completely unaltered, just aftermarket in a way that violates the license, anything that goes wrong (like not being able to activate it because the key is known to have been stolen) is probably still going to get Microsoft blamed rather than the seller.

The desirability of piracy

[igb]

Of course, Microsoft have an incentive to allow some level of piracy to flourish, just as cigarette companies want to encourage some smuggling from low-tax countries. The last thing that Microsoft would want is a situation where people with limited means cannot obtain Windows, legally or otherwise, and therefore instead opt to use Linux. At the moment, using Linux is a significantly worse outcome for Microsoft than people using pirated Windows. An increase in Linux use would mean a decrease in broken government websites that only really work with IE, for example, and that's a virtuous circle (from our point of view) and a rather less virtuous one for Bill. Likewise Office (in fact, far more so Office): it's worth almost infinite residential-market piracy to keep OpenOffice out of peoples' minds.

ian

Re:The desirability of piracy

[Torp]

You're close to the point - every action taken against "software piracy" is good news for Linux. People who can't afford Windows and can't pirate it will eventually switch to a free operating system.

Re:The desirability of piracy

[drooling-dog]

It's not necessarily just the low end of the market that can get picked off this way, either. Corporate and institutional customers of proprietary software are subject to very intrusive audits by vendors and the BSA (Business Software Alliance), often with expensive outcomes. A couple of those and you'd be negligent not to consider FOSS alternatives.

Shill Alert

[A beautiful mind]

The article is by Laura DiDio - the SCO supporter shill.

You get what you paid for - it's a venomous piece.

Re:Shill Alert

[A beautiful mind]

Ignore parent. I was incorrect about the author, Laura DiDio didn't write this article she is just mentioned in it.

Gotta go with Microsoft on this one...

[Gannoc]

When I was trying to sell a used Mac, I was competing with many, many auctions with descriptions like:

"Selling used iMac G4. Comes installed with, Adobe, Maya, Final Cut Pro, etc. Includes "backup" disk with "backup" copies of this software."

It included EVERY major OSX software product imaginable, and I knew it was in no way legitimate. It had to be $5000+ worth of software, total.

The retail value of the iMac G4 was maybe $1000, but the auctions were going for $1600-$2000. Clearly, people were willing to pay the extra money to get a copy of the software. I would be willing to bet that some of those people thought they were getting used legitimate copies.

This isn't fun+happy software piracy, where the 19 year old college kid wants to play with the $3000 professional video editing tools, this is a criminal selling someone else's software for profit, and I hope the hammer comes down on them...

Re:Gotta go with Microsoft on this one...

[drooling-dog]

I was looking for a laptop on Ebay a while back and it's true that the ones that come with a recent version of Windows cost more than those that come with no OS at all (which is what I was looking for, since I planned to install Linux on it). The problem was that the "clean disk" laptops were few and far between; I finally settled for one running an older version of Windows that bidders weren't willing to pay a premium for. Of course, I would never trust any OS that came installed on a used laptop, so it's going to get wiped regardless.

Re:Gotta go with Microsoft on this one...

[toddestan]

On the other hand, while looking at used computers on eBay, seeing the a picture of the laptop booted up and sitting at the Windows desktop demonstrates that it atleast has some functionality, and that is worth a premium over the "It has no OS, but it works, trust me" auctions. Though honestly, a laptop is something that I pretty much would avoid getting on eBay nowadays, new or used.

It all makes sense now

[wile_e_wonka]

When I bought my computer off eBay, I asked the seller if it had Windows XP Pro (my school required XP 'Pro,' and not 'Home'). He told me that it does, and Office too, but that eBay shut his site down when he advertized it. I thought, that's odd... (I was so naiive).

Anyway, I bought the computer, and it came with a burned version of the resource CD, and the hard drive had images of windows XP, Office, Nero, Norton (no, I didn't install Norton!) and several other programs. Mind you this computer was cheap too. I though, wow I got a deal!

But obviously everything on here is pirated. However, whenever I download something from Microsoft, they check to make sure my copy of Windows is "genuine" and it seems to think everything is in proper order...

Consumers?

[caffeination]

You'd think that they'd at least call them "customers" in a situation like this.

*sigh* As a customer, it's getting hard to find people to do business with these days. I still don't envy the lot of "consumers" though. But then again, if your self-worth is low enough that you're willing to be called a "consumer" by your "vendor", you're asking for trouble.

huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Slow down, let me get this straight.....so....some people "pay" for software......oww...this concept confuses and infuriates me.

Re:huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Richard, long time no see you! I did not know that you where starting to read slashdot again!

That may explain the awful smell that appeared suddenly over here

Resale of OEM software

[Half a dent]

It is legal for individuals (and companies?) to re-sell OEM licenses in Europe under the 1991 European Computer Software Directive.

Here is a link to the story:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/05/08/selling_oe m_windows_copies_you/

Europe does tend to stand up to MS no matter what Bill puts in his EULA.

Re:Resale of OEM software

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this legal in the US as well? I have two copies of XP Pro that came with my machines that have never and will never be used. If I could pick up even $25 for each of them I would be thrilled to clear up some room in that box of miscellaneous of garbage in my closet.

Re:Resale of OEM software

[Anonymous Coward]

Honestly, you could probably post an email address with a request for $50 per, and have them gone within an hour.

Re:Resale of OEM software

[Half a dent]

Or sell them via the UK ebay site www.ebay.co.uk. PayPal handles the Pound to Dollar exchange and shipping would not be too high either.

Re:Resale of OEM software

[teasea]

I'm actually in the middle of this right now. I saved almost $200.00 by putting the new system I bought together myself. The copy of XP is OEM designated as 'To be sold only with new systems'. Now I can't activate it, as it requires some software Macro$lab provides to the manufacturer that activates pre-installed copies. The seller, who probably has a lot of these, is figuring it out.

Open to advice here, though 'You're fucked now' isn't very helpful.

Re:Resale of OEM software

[Anonymous Coward]

You could try downloading a copy from one of the many filesharing networks, and then use your legit key instead of the one that's provided.

Re:Resale of OEM software

[teasea]

Good idea. I just may do this.

Sad. Another honest man turns corporate criminal. (meaning me:))

Overseas sales

[WickedClean]

Because International customers are not going to that tri-state show to buy software to put on PCs that they resell throughout the country.

With the required "call home"

[AnonymousPrick]

Is it illegal to resell your original copy of Windows?

I don't know, but with the required "call home" for many software packages, I'd be very hesitant to buy any software second hand. I'd be afraid that when I installed the second had software, it'd call home to activate and refuse to activate because there have been too many installs for that particular license.

but they can afford jail-time?

[Tominva1045]

It's ironic that people might not be able to afford software but they could afford jail-time.

People will continue to steal till they get their hands slapped- maybe that's the lesson then need to learn.

Re:but they can afford jail-time?

[Chowderbags]

Too bad copyright infringement is almost always a civil matter, and thus can't result in prison time.

Paying for pirated products...

[Kjella]

I must say I'm surprised at the amount of money people manage to make selling warez. I can't imagine many of these look like the real thing, I suppose it must be the "allofmp3.com" factor - you paid for it, so you've legitimized yourself. I certainly wouldn't trust anything I bought on eBay to be more genuine than the nearest bittorrent site. Without starting a "buy vs pirate" flamewar, getting it off eBay seems to be the worst of both worlds.

Re:Paying for pirated products...

[L0neW0lf]

I must say I'm surprised at the amount of money people manage to make selling warez. I can't imagine many of these look like the real thing

Prepare to be surprised.

Back when I worked in a computer store in the mid-to-late 90's, we took in a shipment of copies of Office 97 from a major vendor. As we unpacked them, a colleague and I looked and I said "Hmm, that's funny, the CD-key label looks a little grainy". The orange did look a little grainy, so we looked at the rest. The CD looked fine, printed the way it was supposed to, the jacket looked like Microsoft Office, but the logos looked just slighly less sharp around the edges than usual. We called up Microsoft, and it wasn't legit, so we sent them back to vendor.

Later, I found similar copies of Office 2000, holographic CD and all. Don't kid yourself; there's a market, even if you don't see it, and they look plenty real to Joe Sixpack.

Pay the Danegeld, never ger rid of the Dane.

[Thud457]

Doctrine of First Sale

Goddamn corporate whores are colluding to not just monopolize an industry, but the market itself. That's just wrong.

If I'm forced to buy a copy of Windows that I don't want with my new computer, I should be able to freely re-sell that copy. (Ok, so being software, someone could make a "backup" copy and sell their original. That's not right either.)

Re:Pay the Danegeld, never ger rid of the Dane.

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, if you do not wish to be forced to buy a copy of Windows with a new computer, you can just build your own computer. It is not at all difficult.

Now just imagine a situation in which mass numbers of people chose this route, and installed the operating system that best suited them (this must be hypothetical, since most end users don't completely care about which OS they are using). Would that be the end of manufacturers preloading Windows?

Or would it be a repeat of that incident a few years ago when mass numbers of Linux users went to Redmond for refunds?

Re:Pay the Danegeld, never ger rid of the Dane.

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't read the article yet, but your response has nothing to do with the comment you responded to.

The comment says that Microsoft has every right to go after counterfeit software. You know, people who download an ISO of the latest Windows/Office/Whatever off of the Internet, burn some copies, and then sell it on eBay as an authentic copy of the program.

What you're talking about is whether or not you have the right to sell a copy of a product that was bundled with your computer. It's authentic, so although Microsoft may try to take you down for some ill-defined reason, it won't be because it's counterfeit -- which is the only thing the grandparent mentioned.

Re:Pay the Danegeld, never ger rid of the Dane.

[Billly Gates]

But your not buying windows. Your buying only a licensed copy to use it. It just happens to come with a cd.

So therefor the law of first doctrine needs not to be applied as its a copy and a license and not an actual product.

I dont agree with this mind you, but this is how the lawyers at microsoft interpret and get away with it.

Odd hu?

Re:Pay the Danegeld, never ger rid of the Dane.

[IAmTheDave]

But your not buying windows. Your buying only a licensed copy to use it. It just happens to come with a cd.

Which is the same argument that the RIAA et al use, but I still have the right of first sale of the LICENSE, along with the media it comes on.

Well, at least I have the right for the time being...

Re:Pay the Danegeld, never ger rid of the Dane.

[Ravatar]

They're not selling you the program. They're selling you *use of the program*.

It might be news, but it's not new.

[Peldor]

I tried to list a new-in-the-box Windows NT4 CD on Ebay several years ago. It was pulled within hours with a note stating Ebay in cooperation with MS do not permit reselling of their software except by licensed parties (and so forth).

A lot of these 50,000 'suspicious' copies are probably legitimate, you just can't sell it on Ebay because that would price the software at its true market value. First-sale doctrine, we hardly knew ye.

Re:It might be news, but it's not new.

[heinousjay]

The fact that Ebay won't allow a particular sale in no way interferes with your rights. You can still sell it elsewhere. This company doesn't want your business along these lines.

Ebay also doesn't allow the sale of used underwear. Is this also a violation of your 'rights' online? If so, please explain to me where I can find the enumeration of my Ebay rights.

Re:It might be news, but it's not new.

[PitaBred]

Once a company hits a certain market penetration, I think they have a bit of a responsibility to the public. eBay controls online auctions, and as the auctions are technically legal, they should keep out of it. IMHO, of course.

Re:It might be news, but it's not new.

[Anonymous Coward]

Their sandbox, their rules, I get that... the problem is that their purported "rationale" is bogus.

each person defines good..

[Tominva1045]

Maybe for the same reason so many people steal cable TV service even though there's really nothing good on to watch.

It's safe for us to assume each person will define good in his own way- so if a person is sitting in front of the cable tv (or software) he stole then he found something good for him.

Of course we reserve the right to cast the one-eyebrow-up look in his general direction ;-)

As a buyer of software

[Anonymous Coward]

I am sick of Microsoft lumping pirated software with:

1. Resold software, buy MS Office, switch to something else and try to sell your software on eBay and Microsoft claims is pirated because their EULA says you can't resell.

2. OEM resold software, sure its a breach of the OEM contract, but I the buyer am not committing piracy.

3. Unbundled software, if I take a part off my car I can sell it, but if I take and sell a piece of software that was thrown in the box of my new Windows PC MS claims its pirated? Says who? Why does Microsoft continue to call this practice piracy?

4. Grey market import, sure the seller of the software in a foreign country is committing a breach of his resale contract, however I am not a pirate for buying it.

Re:As a buyer of software

[Scarletdown]

I am sick of Microsoft lumping pirated software with:

1. Resold software, buy MS Office, switch to something else and try to sell your software on eBay and Microsoft claims is pirated because their EULA says you can't resell.

In my experience with reselling used MS software on eBay (software that I typically find cheap at thrift stores), it seems that the biggest secret to keeping the listing alive is the COA. Apparently, as long as you mention that there is a Certificate of Authenticity included with the item, MS will leave you alone. And that COA can be either the paper version that is inserted into the case, or the bit of cardboard off of the box from pretty much any Microsoft product.

This is the minimum for MS retail versions. Apparently for OEM, the only other thing you need to add to the listing is that there is also included an unspecified, unwarranted piece of computer hardware in order to comply with the rules on reselling OEM software.

As for the EULA, you can also claim that you have not installed this package yourself and have not accepted the EULA. The CD was tested by mounting on a Linux system and browsing through the directory structure.

Re:As a buyer of software

[LunaticTippy]

Thank you for the tips.

As for the EULA, you can also claim that you have not installed this package yourself and have not accepted the EULA. The CD was tested by mounting on a Linux system and browsing through the directory structure.

I thought that they printed the EULA on the CD envelope to avoid this defense. "By opening this package the user agrees..."

Re:As a buyer of software

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the minimum for MS retail versions. Apparently for OEM, the only other thing you need to add to the listing is that there is also included an unspecified, unwarranted piece of computer hardware in order to comply with the rules on reselling OEM software.

Over here in the EU, this is covered by the equivalent of the first sale doctrin. Essentially, jurisdition has decided that limitations of resale of those products just apply to those who microsoft sold the software to. Any customers of those are free to sell to whoever they want - they still have to keep the bits together (manual, CD and sticker) to make it a valid license, but that's about it.

Re:As a buyer of software

[kimvette]

IIRC, courts have decided that enforcing price controls by forcing hardware to be sold with the OEM edition is not valid, so you can indeed sell OEM software without hardware. Just be damn sure what you are selling is actually legal and includes the COA (which with OEM pretty much means that annoying holographic sticker)

Re:As a buyer of software

[kimvette]

Europeans get a manual with Windows? Even the OEM version?

What is called a "manual" here is really just a glitzy brochure with no real, usable information. There hasn't been a cursory Windows manual since Windows 95 - and not a REAL manual since Windows 3.1 or 3.0. And that's if you bought the RETAIL version. Here, OEM customers get NOTHING unless the OEM was kind enough to author their own manual.

Re:As a buyer of software

[Scarletdown]

IIRC, courts have decided that enforcing price controls by forcing hardware to be sold with the OEM edition is not valid, so you can indeed sell OEM software without hardware.

Still, I don't think that eBay has changed their rules on this yet. So just to be safe, there is no harm in including a bit of hardware with an OEM MS product. You don't have to state what it is or that it would be even useful, meaning just an old 4MB or 8MB SIMM should be sufficient to meet eBay's requirements. Those are abundantly available, cheap, and add practically nothing to the total package weight for shipping calculations. My 16MB and precious 32MB SIMMs, as well as DIMMs 64MB and up are off limits though. I hoard those for my own greenbox Debian projects.

Just be damn sure what you are selling is actually legal and includes the COA (which with OEM pretty much means that annoying holographic sticker)

I take it that sticker is usually stuck on the computer's case? If you can't peel it off without mangling it, then an alternative is to keep an eye out for old boxed MS products. Usually printed on the side of the box is an area that says Microsoft Certificate of Authenticity yaddayaddyadda. Since there is nothing that indicates what specific product the COA is for or whether it is for Windows or Mac, cut that out and include it in the listing, and state that A COA is included (as opposed to The COA). That should satisfy eBay's requirements for reselling MS software, whether retail or OEM. And if you are worried that some asshat from MS might shut the auction down anyway, simply don't use any pictures in the auction, since everyone knows what a MS Office 97 or Windows 98SE, etc CD and gem case look like.

Harumph

[buss_error]

1. If I recall correctly, Ebay gave microsoft accounts the right to pull auctions directly. EG: MS employee logs in, scans auctions, finds one like "XP Pro for sale, I use Linux, don't need this" and pulls the auction. Reasoning: The XP Pro for sale was an OEM version without right to transfer without the hardware.

2. MS alleges that many people selling Windows were selling their original install disks, and were still running the install on their own hardware. That would be a license violation.

3. All this has led to now: I have a laptop for Windows, but can't find the OEM image disk for it. I have to buy a full copy of Windows for this laptop now because FSCKing spammers got an execuitable through that didn't trip anti-virus, and due to job requirements, I have to use OutLook. BAMPH! Auto-infected (I didn't open the email, the pre-view pane was enough), spyware laden, zombified spam-spewing undead computer from hell. And yes, it's off any sort of internet connection (wireless is off in BIOS) until it's fixed.

Thanks for "protecting" me, Microsoft.

Re:Harumph

[ScottCooperDotNet]

All the OEMs should have a replacement install disc available for about $20. Don't give Microsoft another dime!

Re:Harumph

[DGregory]

You can call the OEM that made the computer and get new disks for it. If it's newer, it may even have an installation copy on another partition (Dell likes to do that nowadays).

Re:Harumph

[powerlord]

You'd think so, but when I was servicing a friends computer and needed to re-install the OS I found the problem. They hadn't gotten a CD. No problem, I thought, I'll just call the maker (whose name starts with G). They're response? No ... I'm sorry, the computer is out of warrenty (1 yr), and if you hadn't received a re-install CD you should have called us with the first 14 days, and no, we you can't have one now (even if we were willing to pay for it).

All OEMS SHOULD have replacement disks available, but just think of how much MS would charge them for the privaledge?

Re:Harumph

[drooling-dog]

Sounds like a good time to try Linux, if you're feeling a little adventurous...

Re:Harumph

[toddestan]

I consider it perfectly legit to download an ISO off of your favorite P2P program, and then use a legit key (like from an OEM sticker on the side of a computer) to install it. The only problem with this is that ISO's of XP Home are kind of scarce on P2P.

Re:Harumph

[buss_error]

All 6 of my other computers run Linux. Thanks. It's not an adventure, it's a way of living.

Don't take it personally

[east coast]

The suits are apparently meant to 'protect consumers'.

It seems that someone is taking the "protect consumers" line as if it's somehow a backhanded move but my experience with eBay software is different...

I once ordered a Solaris training CD from a seller on eBay under the assumption that I was getting a legitimate product but when I got the package in the mail it was far from it; I got a CD mailer with a burnt copy of several PDFs and a java-driven testing and review system. I can faithfully confirm that at least half the PDFs were commercial products and I'm guessing the seller making these discs wasn't paying fees to the offical publishers of these documents. Since it was for personal use I didn't bother to worry too much about it but I can understand where ligitmate businesses that need to account for their licenses would have a hard time justifing ever using these types of products.

I'm not saying that every add MS had pulled was illegitimate but at the same time I wouldn't be too happy if my coppy of visual studio .net came in without an offical license and knwoing that I had little chance at retribution.

Unfortunatly with the number of software vendors it's hard to keep tabs on legitimate licenses and I'm sure that if I went thru the proper channels to report the theft of documents by the seller eventually someone would have at least suggested that eBay would be partly liable for the theft.

I call BS

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this about "piracy" or is it about MS trying to destroy right of first sale so everyone will be forced to by the latest, DRMd, bloated, most useless version of their software?

E-bay loves piracy

[erichf]

E-bay makes it incredibly easy for people to sell pirated software but makes it very difficult for owners of the software being pirated to stop the sellers. You have to join a program and then swear on your mother's grave and under threat of purgery that the person selling software is absolutely breaking the law and then you have to fax in documents to substantiate your claims (yes fax not e-mail). E-bay does eventually take action but they make the process as difficult as possible for owners of IP to defend their ownership. If I ran a business out of a store where I unknowingly (wink wink) facilitated the sale of stolen property, the police would still bust me and I'd find myself in court. E-bay does the same thing and somehow just waltz along with no repercusions.

My MS Software Was Pulled Off Ebay

[mikerand98682]

About five years ago I tried to sell the copy of Microsoft Works that came with my Dell on eBay. Never wanted it, would have gladly passed on buying it with my system had that been an option. It was sealed in the shrink wrap with the authenticity sticker still on it (the "opening this package means you consent to the licensing agreement" message sealed inside). Never used... never openend... pulled off eBay.

I now understand that OEM Software is to stay with the machine it was bought with, but when the software is pushed to buyers that don't want it and are not allowed to resell their unused licenses, that's just too great a deal for the software publishers. I want in on that deal, heck, the mob wants in on that deal.

I think Microsoft should provide some sort of refund for their software that has never been licensed. My workplace has several XP licenses never used because those machines are running linux and it was cheaper to buy them with XP and take it off than to buy without.

You don't own Microsoft software, ever

[Alien54]

Heck, I've even got a few legit copies of Office98 still in their shrink wrap around here somewhere (along with copies of Win95 sr2, NT4, and Win2000 ... you'd be amazed at how many shrinkwraped packages people never open and just discard). Maybe I can offer them on eBey? :)

Microsoft would likely classify this as an illegimate sale on the basis of some sort of logic. Remember just because you paid for them doesn't mean you own them, not at all... At least according to Microsoft.

Now if they made this plainly known and explicit on the package from day one, this would be a rather large dis-incentive to potential sales. A variant on the classic Bait and switch.

Re:You don't own Microsoft software, ever

[Alex P Keaton in da]

Not more than 10 miles from where I sit right now, a student stood up to Microsoft, and won... Remember reading about this?
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2005/03/11/ms_zam os_ebay/
Chem student tames Microsoft's legal eagles
eBay educator wins
A not so bright Kent State University student has defeated the world's largest software company. Microsoft today dropped its lawsuit against David Zamos, and Zamos dropped his countersuit against Microsoft, The Register has learned. It seems that the public scrutiny over suing a student for moving a couple copies of software on eBay was too much for Microsoft to bear.
The US District Court for the Northern District of Ohio today revealed that Microsoft and Zamos have settled their differences after battling in court for more than two months. "The Court was informed by all parties that this matter has settled in its entirety," wrote Judge John Adams. "Accordingly, it is hereby ORDERED that this case is DISMISSED without prejudice."
Zamos - a chemistry student at Kent State - received a surprise in the mail last year when Microsoft lobbed a lawsuit his way. Microsoft was shocked to find Zamos selling one copy each of Windows XP Pro and Office XP Pro on eBay. The student had purchased the software at the University of Akron's bookstore and received a substantial educational discount, paying just $60 for the code. After deciding he didn't really want the software, Zamos tried to return it to bookstore but to no avail. He then put the software up for auction on eBay and brought in $203.
Why Zamos thought he could move educational software on the free market is beyond us, but the student reckons he saw no resale restrictions on the software boxes. This, after all, is the same student who was "arrested after sneaking across a lawn . . . with a can of spray paint, heading toward the notoriously large Bush/Cheney sign in the yard of Summit County Republican Chairman Alex Arshinkoff" and then "convicted of misdemeanor trespassing and criminal mischief," according to a report from the Beacon Journal.
All that aside, Microsoft's behavior in this matter is far more comical than that of Zamos.
Microsoft's vast team of software snoopers were quick to notice the packages up on eBay, as shown by the firm's original filing in the lawsuit.
"A Microsoft investigator sent a message to Defendant through eBay's website asking whether the disk containing the software included the phrase 'not for retail or OEM distribution.' Defendant confirmed by return email the same day that the disk did include the phrase," Microsoft's lawyers said. Irreparable injury
Zamos, however, likely did not consider himself a retail or OEM outlet. He just wanted money back so he could buy some beer on the weekend. Microsoft saw the matter in a much more serious light.
"Microsoft has suffered and will continue to suffer substantial and irreparable damage to its business reputation and goodwill as well as losses in an amount not yet ascertained," it said. "Defendant's acts of copyright infringement have caused Microsoft irreparable injury."
Microsoft sought attorney's fees and Zamos's profit from selling the software.
The whole matter took a different turn though when Zamos countersued Microsoft on Jan. 3.
Zamos lobbed a large number of charges at Microsoft - most notably that the company made it tough to return software. "Microsoft purposely established and maintained a sales and distribution system whereby rightful rejection and return of merchandise that is substantially non-conforming is either impossible or practically impossible due to the ineptness of its employees, unconscionable policies malicious intent and deceptive practices," he wrote in the countersuit.
What's this kid doing messing around with Chemistry?
Word of Zamos's battle eventually reached the main Ohio papers, and that's when Microsoft got scared. It offered to drop its suit a

Re:You don't own Microsoft software, ever

[00Dan]

Not likely, will. Or at least they did to me, right after they sent an email to all my bidders accusing me of being a software pirate for trying to sell a full copy of Office I won as a door prize.

I wound up selling it to someone who recognized my email address as being for a local law firm. He rightfully assumed that someone wouldn't be so stupid as to sell pirated software from a law firms email address.

civil matter---

[Tominva1045]

If a pirate pirated 100,000 copies and couldn't pay the court-determined fines then he could get community service? Close enough to jail time.

That's not protecting Customers!

[Petskull]

That's not protecting customers! The only thing people really gain by downloading genuine MS software is the opportunity to call MS tech support.

Doesn't that make this a cruel reprisal?

EBay has XP for $30.00 or less from Taiwan

[digitaldc]

Doesn't seem to be a problem in Taiwan.
Step right up, they have tons of these ready to go.

Re:EBay has XP for $30.00 or less from Taiwan

[Noodles_HK]

Your link didn's show anything... Try this this "Installed but never used, selling to someone who needs it, for personal use." Righto!

Re:EBay has XP for $30.00 or less from Taiwan

[digitaldc]

It must have been shut down, before the first item had 22 bids on MS XP for around $22.00 US.

is it really counterfeit

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually the last time Microsoft sued over 'piracy` it turned out to be some resellers had legitimatly bought licenses from a defunct company and were selling them at a discount. The case could be read as dispute over breech of contract.

A more realistic apprasial of Microsofts motivation in pursuing theses cases could be to shut off online sales and boost its own direct selling arm.

The article is unclear as to the source of the software in the current cases. It's also despicable that DiDio promotes virus fud so as to scare people away from buying in these channels.

Some more quotes from Laura;

on the SCO case ..

"DiDio signed an SCO non-disclosure agreement and reported that she had seen 80 lines of code in the kernel that were copy-pasted from SCO's owned code. She could not, of course, reveal what they were"

"The entire Linux community is saying to customers, 'You're on your own,'" DiDio said. "That's not a place I want to be."

On the EU commision case

"This has the potential to turn into a twentieth century witch hunt,"

On moving to Linux ..

"A company has to .. be willing to risk not having an indemnification policy."

On the Open Source community ..

`Within the open source community, there are a large percentage of tinkers and 'ankle biters' .. these people are like virtual suicide car bombers.'

Laura DiDio

and for non-interest bearing accounts?

[way2trivial]

what would be the justification then?

most checking accounts with balances under 1000 never earn interest,,,

Re:and for non-interest bearing accounts?

[hal9000(jr)]

what would be the justification then? most checking accounts with balances under 1000 never earn interest,,,

doesn't matter. They still have to report it and your account may make interest. I think last year my checking account accrued a whopping $120 which I duly reported as income. :P Ya know, to support the war and all that.

another way to profit from this labor?

[Tominva1045]

We should find another way to profit from such labor?

Interesting idea, what did you have in mind?

Is this the labor of software creation or the labor of litigation?

If it's software payment I still prefer $$$ because I can convert that into whatever I like.

Re:another way to profit from this labor?

[bzipitidoo]

It's hard to express the general idea without people instantly thinking it's socialism or communism. It is, I admit, pretty radical at first appearance. But a lot of people have had similar thoughts, and we use something similar in several unrelated areas. I've been working on how to express it. So here goes.

Need statistics on what people use, and need money. Money would be paid out according to the statistics.

The statistics part is the easier one. Thanks to the Internet, gathering statistics is not difficult. Ensuring a minimum of fraud and a maximum of accuracy would be harder. I'd like several approaches, with some money for each one. We would have the gamut from super secure digitally signed anonymous votes to informal Slashdot style polls and hit counters as used on web pages, and number of hits a name generates in a search engine. Number of times a research paper is cited could be a nice measure too, but don't want to encourage scientists into becoming even bigger attention seeking whores than they already are. May have to forget the simple polls, they'd likely be too easy to manipulate. (Not that bestseller lists haven't been frequently manipulated, just think Payola, and the efforts of the Scientologists to pump L. Ron Hubbard's works.) We'd also have different interpretations on how the counting should be done. Like, if a person runs Ubuntu Linux, one place could count the number of times the system is installed, another the number of boots, another the number of hours it's left running, still another could count the same stuff for individual packages such as gcc, OpenOffice, Firefox, and so on. We'd have some sort of incentive system to encourage private entities to compete to provide the most accurate statistics. The available money could be divided into amounts for each of the different statistics, and each amount paid out according to those statistics. Authors might receive a count of 20 out of 1 million according to one method and a count of 5000 out of 2 million according to another, and would do ok because the 5000 would make up for the 20.

The money, as always, is the most difficult. I floated the idea of taxes to some Republican friends of mine, and they wouldn't listen to another word. They couldn't see the savings, just the expense. How could I propose that the money they pay in taxes might end up supporting music they hate? How could I be so stupid as to even think of setting up yet another bureaucracy that would obviously be corrupt and inefficent? They conveniently overlooked the many corrupt and inefficient aspects of our current system. I also pointed out that music and software would be freely available. The tax was definitely not something for nothing. Canada's levy on blank CDROMs could be used for this purpose.

However, it might be possible, and better, to leave the govt out of this business as much as possible. Have independent quasi govt organizations like stock exchanges, or home loan suppliers (Freddy Mac and Fannie May), or something like a mutual fund. The duty of such an organization would be to collect fees and distribute the takings according to statistics. The usual way for a web site business to raise money is ad revenue, but I know a lot of businesses tried that and went under because they couldn't generate enough traffic to interest advertisers. May be possible to find some wealthy patrons who would help launch such organizations. Also may be able to sell services to provide statistical analysis, or "list" a work of art or science (rather like listing a stock on an exchange). Naturally, no money would be handed out for works under the traditional protection of copyrights and patents no matter how good their statistics. The owners would have to turn their intellectual property over to the public domain. People trying to earn money through traditional means and afraid to let go their stranglehold would have a way to measure the benefits of staying with traditional copyright, or of switching to this new system. C

have to use OutLook???

[r00t]

There is a GNOME email client called Evolution that is,
unfortunately from my viewpoint, very much like OutLook.

If that won't do, I suggest VmWare and a firewall that
only lets the VmWare image connect to the Exchange server.

Re:have to use OutLook???

[buss_error]

I tried to use something, ANYTHING, other than LookOut. No dice. The company policy and AUP states that product to the exclusion of all else. It's a case of "do it their way". There's always the highway....

the college kid

[way2trivial]

can get the 3k tools for under 250
https://www.macromedia.com/cfusion/store/index.cfm ?store=OLS-EDU#

It's about time

[szembek]

It's time to clean up the pirated software off of eBay. Tons of people download pirated software and use it. While I'm not going to argue the morality of that, I can say that selling burned software is by far more immoral than downloading it for yourself. At any given time on eBay you can find numerous popular software titles that are clearly pirated. I see a big difference between installing a hacked copy of photoshop you snagged off the Internet, and downloading a copy, burning a shitload of them, and turning a profit.

So what's the problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that many PCs come with Windows is oft complained about, yet...

it was cheaper to buy them with XP and take it off than to buy without.

So what's the problem? Throw the Windows stuff away along with the box and other packaging. (Or just keep it next to your pile of AOL discs.)

Re:So what's the problem?

[mikerand98682]

It just doesn't seem fair. Microsoft is selling software to people that aren't using it and then not letting them resell it.

It's cheaper so what's the problem... I largely agree with you, but I wonder what the market would be like without all the backend deals between Microsoft and sellers like Dell.

Ultimately we have the choice about what we buy, just not who or how we pass on what we buy.

Official versions too ?

[alexhs]

versions often containing malicious code that can be used to infect PCs with viruses or to install Trojan horses that can be used to steal private data

Huh, doesn't that apply to all versions of MS-Windows ? :)

Why just MS?

[dbmasters]

eBay is full of this stuff, why doesn't this BSA group target these auction sites and take action for all it's sponsors...

Now if Ebay would police the rest of their site...

[krbvroc1]

Funny how many scams are run on Ebay and they do little about it. Trying to contact a human is close to impossible. Their safe harbor department rarely gives a shit. Known scammers are allowed to keep their sellers id's even after numerous complaints.

Given Ebay history, my guess is that MS threatened to sue Ebay, so they are cooperating.

I must have been lucky

[Jon_Hanson]

I've sold a couple pieces of Microsoft software on eBay that I no longer used and I never had an auction pulled. My auctions were completely legitimate as the software came in the original cases on original CDs with keys attached. When I sold them (I think it was Office 97 and Office 2000) I was not using them anymore as I had upgraded so I should have been fine in that department.

Gotta go with the Pirates on this one...

[AnyThingButWindows]

The hammer needs to come down on those who sell software for those rediculous prices. Its called price gouging, and its highly illegal. No person in their right mind where I live will pay $300 for a copy of Windows. Much less $400 for a copy of some office suite, and even if they do, they put it on every machine they own. Most of the world pirates software. The United States is one of the ONLY countries that encourages people buy, and pay that much for software. It is NOT illegal to put a single copy of software on 100 machines. A software company that believes in copyright may not like it, but that doesn't make it illegal. Most people don't care what big software companys like, or dislike.

Again, I come back to what I have said before. If you sell a PC & Flat screen for $900. And your competitor down the road sells the same machine for $600 with a pirated copy of XP Pro, and loads of pirated software. Who do you think the people will come to? Not the guy selling the one for $900 I can assure you.

I don't know where your fantacy world is, but in the REAL world people pirate software, and will continue to do so reguardless of what authorities, or software companies believe in. In the REAL world, if you pay for something its yours. Thats what the majority of people believe. Wether you like it or not. Thats reality.

Go down the street in new york, or atlanta ga, and ask 100 people if they would pay $400 for a copy of Microsoft Office, or pay $10 for a working pirated copy. Guess what the majority would say?

Re:Gotta go with the Pirates on this one...

[radish]

Wow. You really don't know what you're talking about do you?

Re:Gotta go with the Pirates on this one...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea, everyone wants to spend their hard earned money on $400 of software on a machine that cost $350 to build. Im sure of that.

Re:Gotta go with the Pirates on this one...

[I'm Don Giovanni]

Yea, everyone wants to spend their hard earned money on $400 of software on a machine that cost $350 to build. Im sure of that.

Slashdotters insist on devaluing software just because it consists of bits rather than atoms.
Generally, software is always more valuable than the hardware that "plays" it. My DVD collection is worth far more than my DVD player. My video game collection is worth far more than my game console. My CD collection is worth more than my CD player. In the 80's my cassette collection was worth more than my cassette player, and my VHS collection was worth more than my VCR. So what's so terrible that computer programs would be worth more than the hardware that runs them?

Re:Gotta go with the Pirates on this one...

[yarbo]

There are free alternatives, use them.

Protecting Customers is like Shepherding Sheep ...

[rewinn]

... the Shepherd "protects" his sheep from the wolves only so he can continue to shear them.

And occasionally have a bit of veal.

Depending on M$'s Definition

[NixLuver]

I'm no defender of IP in general; I think we've cocked it all up here in the US. But regardless of the situation, I think that it should be considered *fraud* if someone sells me software as 'the real deal' and ships me a burned copy with no valid license. OTOH, Microsoft's definition of 'pirated' probably leaves a LOT to be desired. I'm betting they're including things like OEM versions - basically, I bet they're including everything that's being sold by anyone who's not an authorized distributor.

I was one of those 50,000

[majestyk2000]

I had two eBay auctions cancelled late last year because I was selling the recovery disks that came with two IBM Thinkpad laptops I didn't even own anymore. The thing that gets me is the disks would be pretty much useless to anyone that didn't own one of the laptop models the disks originally came with, so why cancel the auctions?

I had the same problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Also realize that counterfeit software more than likely has hacked CD Keys.

My copy of Ubantu had hacked CD keys!

Oh wait, you meant...

OT: Tiffany is propping up the De Beers monopoly

[Dr_Barnowl]

Tiffany will be chasing those selling diamonds on eBay, not because they are counterfeit, but because resale of diamonds is anaethaema to the De Beers cartel.

If you auction second-hand diamond jewellery, it suddenly has resale value. Since diamonds don't wear out, deBeers really don't want that, because their fortune depends on their control of the price of diamonds. If you could sell diamonds for anything like their market price, people would be more inclined to do so, the market would be flooded with the enormous number of precut diamonds in the hands of people everywhere and the price would drop like a (shiny but pointless...) stone.

De Beers spend a great deal of effort persuading you to attach sentimental value to these small chunks of carbon, in order to dissuade you from selling them. Jewellers will rarely offer anything close to market price for second-hand stones, because they know if they do, their lucrative first-hand business would dry up.

But who buys them?

[TheCoders]

Ok, Office maybe, but would anybody want to or need to buy Windows on eBay? Maybe I'm out of touch with the masses, but with the abundance of Free software out there, and with Windows coming with every new PC (whether we want it or not), what's the point? Add to that the fact that you can get pretty much any piece of commercial software you want off of BitTorrent, and I can't imagine the market for used software being very big. And don't tell me the buyers don't realize that the burnt CD with the hand-written label is counterfeit. These people know exactly what they're doing, but they don't have the technical savvy to use P2P.

Furthermore, I would be willing to bet Microsoft is spending more money on these lawsuits than they save by stopping the handful of pirates they sue. Basically, this is just a PR game to try and disuade potential pirates with the threat of a lawsuit. The majority of Microsoft's profits come not from individual consumers, but companies, and most companies are not going to be buying their software off of eBay.

Listen, I have no problem with a company trying to protect its source of revenue. They sell software. That's what they do, that's how they make money, so if they want to go after those who violate the software license agreement, good for them. But don't tell us you're doing it for the consumer. You're doing it for yourself and your bottom line. Maybe if Microsoft would be a little more straightforward and just come out and admit their motivations, they wouldn't have as much of a credibility issue as they have now.

Re:But who buys them?

[Keeper]

Your inability to see the reason why people buy XP on Ebay (instead of downloading some sort of cracked copy) says a lot about the way you think and your ethics.

People buy it because they want to buy a legitimate copy for cheap. They aren't looking for a pirated copy. The sellers of pirated copies on ebay are scammers ... read the actions sometime. Hell, try sending them an email to verify the authenticity of what they're selling. It shouldn't take long to understand how suckers fall for it (the same way spammers find suckers to send out their bank account numbers).

In this case, they are right

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually in this case, MS is actually right when they claim the following:

"The suits are apparently meant to 'protect consumers'."

What do I mean? I've been scanning Ebay lately looking for a good deal on MS Office, and what am I finding? Many many listings which make it sound like it's a legit product but then when you read the "fine print" you find out that what you will get is a burned copy with keygen software. The listings are designed to make you think you're getting the real thing. Sometimes the "fine print" is located on another website, through a link. The sellers think they are covering their asses by saying "read the Terms and Conditions!".

I'd love it if these scumbags could be eliminated from Ebay.

Tiffany vs. Microsoft

[192939495969798999]

It's a little odd to compare Tiffany and Microsoft. If you buy your girlfriend a copy of Windows XP, she'll just look at you funny. If you buy her a Tiffany bracelet, well, let's just say the results will be significantly more positive in your favor. Then again, if you'd buy your girlfriend a copy of Windows XP, chances are you don't have a girlfriend anyways (or you won't for long), so I guess it doesn't really matter.

My Hero

[PhYrE2k2]

The suits are apparently meant to 'protect consumers'.

My Hero! */me kisses M$, while lifting one of my legs slightly*

-M

What good is a win if you can't discuss it?

[botlrokit]

According to this article, and specifically this page of it, the student you wrote about can't discuss the case at all, or the settlement.

Citing a "time management issue", he literally had to agree to disagree, but now can't discuss it at all. My guess is to discourage others from succeeding as he has done.

Re:Protecting Customers is like Shepherding Sheep

[Bassman59]

... the Shepherd "protects" his sheep from the wolves only so he can continue to shear them.

And occasionally have a bit of veal.

Ummmm, veal comes from COW, not sheep. Thanks for playing, though.

What is a pirated copy?

[rew]

Microsoft sells software with a very restrictive EULA. The fact that this EULA is illegal in most places doesn't prevent microsoft from pointing out (e.g. towards Ebay) that resale of an otherwise legit copy of windows is against the EULA.

As I understand things, if I happen to buy an extra copy of Windows by accident, the law says I get to sell it (provided I haven't used it or made a copy). Microsoft considers this piracy.

Software is something "soft". If you buy it, the microsof reasoning is that the soft stuff sticks to you. YOU are licenced to use the software and nobody else. If someone else wants to use the licence they have to pay again. From a microsoft-financial standpoint this viewpoint is the preferred standpoint.

Some Ebay sellers may be selling real pirated copies. (i.e. with the activation keys deactivated or something like that). Catching one or two of these provides food for pulling thousands of auctions for legal, extraneous copies of MS Windows.

Re:What is a pirated copy?

[daverabbitz]

Actually selling the original CD's can never be copyright infringement as you are not making a copy. Using a the original cd's that you bought from someone else however could be considered illegal, but only if the EULA is a legal contract, which in most places it isn't.

Re:Protecting Customers is like Shepherding Sheep

[Anonymous Coward]

Veal? I think you mean mutton. http://dict.die.net/mutton%20chop/

We Need To Help Those Who 'Pirate'

[LifesABeach]

Those poor people that actually 'Buy' software. They know not what they do. We should show them the way of wisdom by helping them get Linux, from the internet. "Koppix" is excellent. "WINE" will alow the children to play their games; Give children "WINE". COME! Join Me in enlightning those who do not know. Come Brothers, and Sisters of the light, show the down trodden that there IS a better way; And it IS Linux.

Amen.

The real story...

[RecycledElectrons]

The real story is that 95% of the "pirated" copies are totally legit.

However, they are being sold below the full retail price, which violates Microsoft's policy on price fixing.

Andy Out!

Re:Protecting Customers is like Shepherding Sheep

[Anonymous Coward]

too bad veal is cow, not sheep.

The First Sale Doctrine v. Licenses

[blckbllr]

Couple of disclaimers: IAAL in IP. That being said:

A couple of posts in this thread refer to the First Sale Doctrine and lament the fact that one can buy software from Best Buy, EB, newEgg.com, etc., but then runs into legal trouble because that same person cannot turn around and sell that same software to a third party, claiming that the first sale doctrine should protect such a sale. But does it?

I think we can all understand the first sale doctrine as it relates to physical objects, e.g., chairs, tables, books, etc. Only one copy or one article of a particular object can exist at any given time. Thus, while two books, such as Ender's Game, may contain the same text, same layout, etc., and be virtually identical in every respect, there is only one copy of each book in existence. Thus, the first sale doctrine exists allowing me (or the original buyer) to sell that book to another person without repercussion from the original copyright holder for copyright infringement (specifically, the right to distribute).

However, software is a little different though. Arguably, the first sale doctrine should apply to the CDs (or DVD) on which the software resides, the box in which the CDs came, etc. Thus, I should be able to sell my original CDs to a third party without repercussion from the copyright holder. However, with respect to the software, what did I initially buy? Because the software on the CDs can exist in multiple locations at the same time (unlike physical objects), arguably, the copyright seller did not actually sell me the software, but the license to use the software. Furthermore, EULAs often contain language that the license is non-transferable. Thus, I could probably not sell my license to a third party even though I can sell my original CDs.

I could say that while the first sale doctrine applies to the physical storage medium of the software, the first sale doctrine may not apply to the license to use the software residing on the storage medium. If the EULA states that the license is transferable, so be it and I can sell that license. However, absent such terminology, it can probably be argued that the first sale doctrine, while applying to the physical absects of the sold package (CDs, manuals, packaging materials, etc.) it probably does not apply to the right to use the software.

Now, one might argue that movies on DVDs are comparable and therefore my argument with respect to software is negated or diminshed. However, I would put forth that Macrovision was designed specifically to prevent movies on DVDs from existing in multiple locations at the same time. Therefore, what you are buying from the copyright holder is not a license to view or play the movie, but an actual copy of the movie for personal use.

Re:Protecting Customers is like Shepherding Sheep

[rewinn]

>veal comes from COW

Alas, 'tis the harsh sting of mere FACT, ruining an otherwise fine joke.

If Microsoft were the shepherd, would it shear the sheep SHORT or LONG?

lolz

[Danzigism]

wait.. lemme get this straight.. all this time i was supposed to be paying for windows?? i forgot that only the elite few with money are allowed to have the luxury of computing..

Endless Abuse of Language

[Anonymous Coward]

"Defendant's acts of copyright infringement have caused Microsoft irreparable injury."

Okay, first, people constantly use the term "theft" when they're actually talking about copyright infringement. Now, these guys call it "copyright infringement" when he was actually reselling the original material. How is it an infringement of copyright when he doesn't even make a copy?

I'm not even going to address the lunacy of the "irreparable injury" he supposedly caused by reselling original software.

Re:Endless Abuse of Language

[kimvette]

re: How is it an infringement of copyright when he doesn't even make a copy?

It's not. It's an example of Microsoft's buying off the courts, and their seeking to eliminate right of first sale. That specific case is one reason I started migrating my company to Linux last year. For workstations, if a box does not HAVE to run Adobe Creative Suite, Visual Studio, or Quickbooks, it has Linux on it instead. Servers? Exchange is being punted next, at that point we'll have no real need to keep the domain server on Windows and will be using Samba for authenticating what Windows workstations remain.

What we're doing costs Microsoft only 15 seats or so of recurring sales in the future, but I'm hardly the only one fed up with Microsoft's shift toward being outright hostile to customers, plus we recommend systems to other companies. We offer OSS alternatives such as OOo.org for customers who are unlikely to encounter OOo's major performance bugs, and Linux as alternatives for those who don't need Windows. Most still opt for Windows (many run Quickbooks or other apps such as medical practice management suites available ONLY for Windows), however very few go for Microsoft Office. :)

You can have good credit without debt.

[Belial6]

You do not have to have any real debt to have good credit. Just go get a Visa card, and use it like a bank account. Every time you charge on it, pay the credit card company. Virtully all credit cards have a one billing cycle grace period. If you pay the full balance at the time you recieve the bill, you pay $0 in interest. The key is you have to only spend the money you have. In fact, if you get a rebate card, many banks will actually pay YOU to use the credit card. You still need to be responsible. The key is making sure you never forget that you should not spend money you don't have.

Re:You can have good credit without debt.

[LeonGeeste]

So, in your mind, I have a positive obligation to get a credit card, even if I don't intend to use it for what credit cards are for, in order to prove credit worthiness? Even though this says nothing about my responsibility? You're okay with how someone $5000 in debt from irresponsible decisions is more trusted for paying his electric bill than LeonGeeste, who saves half his money and never goes into debt? That is all AOK with you?

As a final coup de grace, are you going to tell me that you seriously wonder why US household debt is so high?

Re:You can have good credit without debt.

[karnal]

They're not looking for you to go into debt, they're looking for a payment history...

Friend of mine only has a school loan. Probably to the tune of 50$ a month, and rented an apartment. He decided to buy a house, and was able to get a loan, although probably at a higher rate than most others...

Why?

Well, on that 50$/mo school loan payment, he'd "forget" and pay it when they called him... nevermind at that point he'd pay 4-5 months at a time, but with all of the late dings on his report, it did hurt him.

My point is this. Get some credit, but DONT ABUSE IT. I don't have to tell you that though, because you don't even use credit at this point. But, if at some point you do want credit (in the form of a loan for a house mebby) then you will want a good verifiable payment history.

I have to agree with you about the electric bill. There is no reason for a credit check there - just kill it if the person gets behind. Pretty easy for me to see a solution to.

Re:You can have good credit without debt.

[Belial6]

So, in your mind, I have a positive obligation to get a credit card,

No, I don't believe you have a positive obligation to get a credit card. I just offered advice on how to build a credit history without incurring the costs and long term problems you appear to (reasonably) have a problem with.

even if I don't intend to use it for what credit cards are for,

It sounds like you have fallen prey to the modern idea that credit cards are for carrying long term debt. This is not the case. Credit cards are for convenience of shopping. Credit cards were originally offered by department stores and gas stations. They felt that by offering short term credit to their customes, so that their customers would have greater convinece at their store, they would get more business and make more money. Visa and Mastercard charge a fee to the store to accept their cards, so their motive of making money is satisfied even if you pay your card off every month. In fact, American Express only recently allowed you to carry a balance past the end of the month. Stores on the other hand accept Visa/MC because it creates a convenince for their customers, and thus increases business. You see, there is nothing in the 'purpose' of the credit card that requires long term debt.

Even though this says nothing about my responsibility?

In fact the utility companies know nothing about your responsibility. They are going with the risk they know as opposed to the one they don't. If your credit history is bad enough, they will still require a deposit. Keep in mind though...When the utility companies don't take a deposit, they are offering you the same kind of credit that you would get if you took my credit card advice. They are offering you their product on credit with a one month grace period. As long as you pay the balance at the end of the month, all is good. When you pay the deposit, you are in essence pre-paying (at least a portion) of your utility bill in advance. This in no way reflects on your responsibility, just whether you have experience carrying debt or not. So, yes, collecting a deposit from someone without a credit history is ok with me.

As a final coup de grace, are you going to tell me that you seriously wonder why US household debt is so high?

No, I don't wonder at all. The reason that debt is so high is that most people don't understand money beyond what is in their pocket. For example, most people don't realise that when a store accepts a check, they are supplying you a short term line of credit. The check is only a promise to pay on demand. They also don't realise that when a business performs a service, and doesn't collect until a later date, they are also supplying you with a line of credit. Both the complaint that a utility won't offer you a line of credit without a credit history, and running up $5k in credit card debt both stem from the same misunderstanding of how money works.

To sum up, no I don't think you should HAVE to use credit, but with that, you should not get offended when someone doesn't want to be your first creditor.

Re:You can have good credit without debt.

[LeonGeeste]

They're not looking for you to go into debt, they're looking for a payment history...

I *do* have a payment history. At the time, I had spent over a year in apartments. Paid on time every month. Paid bills too. All on time, all every month. And not only did the electric company not like me not having a credit history, the fucking apartment didn't either!!! I had verifiable proof I was making over *six times a month* more than the rent they were charging per month, plus the references from other apartments, but because of that credit history, I still had to get a co-signer! How fucked up is that?

Re:You can have good credit without debt.

[LeonGeeste]

Credit cards are for convenience of shopping. Credit cards were originally offered by department stores and gas stations. They felt that by offering short term credit to their customes, so that their customers would have greater convinece at their store, they would get more business and make more money. Visa and Mastercard charge a fee to the store to accept their cards, so their motive of making money is satisfied even if you pay your card off every month. In fact, American Express only recently allowed you to carry a balance past the end of the month. Stores on the other hand accept Visa/MC because it creates a convenince for their customers, and thus increases business. You see, there is nothing in the 'purpose' of the credit card that requires long term debt.

I *have* a check card though. But because I can't get in debt with that card, it "doesn't count". So basically, you have to open up a venue for getting into debt before people will rent to you or sell you electricity. I believe it's because they let assholes who skip on rent and bill payments get away. Or because they don't report histories of prompt rent payment, but they do report when you don't pay. I fucking hate being forced to encourage credit card companies. That's what happens when I apply for a credit card.

Re:You can have good credit without debt.

[karnal]

Actually, you bring up a very very valid point.

If they're going to go to the point of doing a credit check to see if you've got good credit (i.e. a good payment history), why in the hell wouldn't they REPORT whether you're paying on time or not?

I guess that makes too much sense.

(I've been using that phrase A LOT at work lately...)

Re:You can have good credit without debt.

[Belial6]

Well, a check card is basically a secured credit card, where they take payment after each transaction. I always discourage people from having one. The reason is that if someone gets hold of your card, they can drain your checking account without any pin, and until you can get your money back, you can very easily start bouncing checks like rent, mortgage, or utility bills. They are very insecure, and really bad for consumers. There is no benefit to a check card over a credit card, but there are a whole lot of down sides.

If you have a moral objection to credit cards in general, there isn't much anyone can say to change it. I don't understand your objection to them, but we all have our pet peaves. Credit cards are the only free way I can think of to create a credit history though.

Re:You can have good credit without debt.

[LeonGeeste]

Credit card companies are the largest, and the largest fraudulent, source of junk mail. I'm sorry you're having a hard time understanding why I wouldn't want to tell them, "hey, keep it up!"

More legit software to be pulled

[Quila]

Does anyone else remember the Microsoft eBay buddy account they used to object to many legitimate auctions? Sellers of legitimate Microsoft products put up harsh comments and negative ratings for the MS account, and eBay switched them all to neutral. Later, after this trick went pretty public, they shut the account.

And if a few legit resellers are shut down...

[MyOtherUIDis3digits]

No big deal, because:

Copies of Windows/Office resold = $0 profit for Microsoft

Remember, here in the US, it's all about the corporations.

Amateur software development not a problem..

[Tominva1045]

If this hypothetical Amateur software developer had skills good enough to create a competitive product then he would be in demand in the marketplace. If this were the case he would have a decently paying job wirting code for someone else until he finished his product in his spare time.

He would definately earn enough to purchase Visual Studio .Net and whatever else he needs.

The real barrier to Amateur software developers making it big are within their own minds- they really have to want this as their dream and never give up in pursuit of it.

Most give up too quickly-

Oh-- Apple gives away their development tools in an attempt to make up for the fact their user base (read: potential customer base) is sooo small that a serious entrepreneur-developer won't consider the ROI in supporting their platform worth the effort.

Re:Amateur software development not a problem..

[misleb]

If this hypothetical Amateur software developer had skills good enough to create a competitive product then he would be in demand in the marketplace. If this were the case he would have a decently paying job wirting code for someone else until he finished his product in his spare time.

He would definately earn enough to purchase Visual Studio .Net and whatever else he needs.

But he's gotta learn VS.NET in the first place, no? Nobody's going to hire him without the VS.NET experience and he might not be able to (or want to) put up the cash upfront. What about in not-so-wealthy foreign countries?

The real barrier to Amateur software developers making it big are within their own minds- they really have to want this as their dream and never give up in pursuit of it.

I'm not saying the cost is a "real barrier." It is just one more reason to consider not developing for Windows in particular. It is why you just don't see much open source software on Windows. It is why you have to pay $29 for relatively simple little shareware programs that one would normally take for granted on Linux and, to a lesser extent, Mac OS.

Oh-- Apple gives away their development tools in an attempt to make up for the fact their user base (read: potential customer base) is sooo small that a serious entrepreneur-developer won't consider the ROI in supporting their platform worth the effort.

And it is an effective strategy. My point is that Microsoft shouldn't be too worried about a (relatively) few people pirating their software (particularly their devel tools) because it only serves ti increase their market dominance in the long run.

What concerns me is that people *profit* from the pirating. If you're going to pirate, the least you can do is make free copies. Honor amongst thieves and all that. :-)

-matthew

Uh. Yes.

[Anonymous Coward]

surprisingly, people conducting legitimate business are often surprised when they are accused of illegal activity.

I guess we should just get used to it.

Accusation != guilt

Re:Protecting Customers is like Shepherding Sheep

[Anonymous Coward]

how's he get the veal if he only has sheep?

I smell a big rat

[Odocoileus]

Awhile back I heard of people having their auctions for linux cds deleted without any clear response from ebay. It seems pretty likely now that MS could have simply flagged them as 'suspicious.' Likely the reasoning could be that since it is a homemade computer cd, it could have other software on it as well. A clever way to hinder linux adoption, if true.

Not necessarily

[Adelle]

Not necessarily pirated (although, possibly if the price was too good to be true).

My mother purchased a PC from a major retailer and she got the same thing as you, but without any CDs (burnt or otherwise). It is common now for the bundled copy of Windows (and Norton, etc) to be on a hidden partition on the CD. The software lets you make a CD backup, but only if you are willing to destroy the hidden partition. I went through the process on my Mother's PC, and she now has a (legitimate) burnt CD, made according to the instruction manual provided by Dell.

Most people aren't going to go through this process, and the resulting CD will presumably only ever work on that PC. Whether or not it's legal to place a "non-transferrability" condition on bundled software, it is effectively non-transferrable for most non-techies.

If only...

[Kittie Rose]

They put this kind of incentive into making a decent operating system. Does anyone else find it interesting that a socialistic outlook produced Linux, a not very widespread but very efficent and stable system, whereas a Capitalist Outlook is producing Windows Vista, which will no doubt be popular but an enormous waste of resources?

It's not all pirated

[Captain Entendre]

In the late 90s a friend of mine bought a couple dozen copies of Windows NT (licensed, boxed, shrink-wrapped, fully legit) from a shrinking dotcom, cheap. Then he put them on eBay and sold a few. Then Microsoft had eBay yank his auctions. He put more up, they took more down, and this repeated a few times. He got legal threats to which he responded "fuck you, these are legit" (paraphrased - he's a polite guy). More auctions, more auctions taken down, etc, etc. IIRC he sold about half of his inventory before giving up.

Legitimate ownership is not a defense against accusations of piracy.

Forgive me Father for I Have Sinned

[mkiwi]

Several years ago when I worked at CompUSA, the employees had a racket of going to Microsoft's training site, completing little flash quizzes, and getting "points" towards Microsoft products. We amassed thousands of points and exchanged the points for products Microsoft offered as rewards.

To make a long story short, we calculated the point/cost ratio and found out that Virtual PC was the most profitable product to order. Some of my friends just waited 'til xmas and turned the Virtual PC in at CompUSA for store credit. I didn't like this model, so I decided I would sell several copies of Virtual PC over a period of a few months on eBay. Plus, I have a beef about ripping off my employers- I owe no loyalty to MS, so to eBay the VPC went.

It was very profitable: $150-$200 a pop for each boxed and unopened copy of Virtual PC. In leet speak "M$ got pwn3d." It appears that now the era of free Virtual PC is over.

Although technically not software piracy (there was an "agreement" to use the software for personal use, whatever that means), it was a great back door and I was able to buy a nice printer with the money I made, plus save a little for my college education. Thank you Microsoft!

To recap:

• Train at Microsoft's site
• Order Virtual PC
• Sell on eBay
• ??
• Profit!

Those were the days before I actually had real responsibility...

How to sell unwanted OEM software on eBay

[POTSandPANS]

Simply list the OEM software AND hardware in the auction. When it comes to the item description be sure to point out that the hardware fell down the stairs when you got it home and it's condition is unknown. Shipping cost is $150, however, the person who wins the auction has the option of having their new computer (damaged) and software shipped to them, or may have their new hardware disposed of and have only the software shipped at a cost of only $10.

Re:Protecting Customers is like Shepherding Sheep

[chawly]

He shears the sheep and, since his wool is an exclusive monopoly, he sells it at a highly inflated price. With the proceeds, he can buy all the veal he wants. Maybe even a little caviar, too.

Re:It's about time-something got done

[chawly]

Might want to clean up the Microsoft Monopoly first, though. My idea is that if you're going clean up dishonesty, you might want to start with the biggest offender.