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Xbox 360 Backup Discs Bootable
An anonymous reader writes "The firmware of the Xbox 360 DVD drive has been hacked, allowing users to boot backups of games on the new Microsoft console. A group of hackers on the xboxhacker.net forum managed to trick the DVD firmware into reporting a recordable disc as an original Xbox 360 disc. This means that it will not allow booting of unsigned homebrew code (like Linux), as the signature check is not bypassed. This hack will just trick the Xbox 360 into thinking you inserted an original Xbox 360 disc, so it'll only boot unedited executables. A video has been released, the hack has not been released to the public (because it will be mainly used for piracy), but all the research of the last few months is publicly viewable."
yeah, and I read playboy for the articles.
how long until a game is released that checksums the DVD firmware and "updates it" to soemthing more secure?
( + reporting to MS Live if you have a hacked verison and cancelling your account? ala Blizzard?)
If you don't want to wait 30 seconds to download the video, stream it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyZQ4k7Bi-8
well, microsoft definatly should have seen that coming, especially with how advanced dvd burners are, and how much storage the dvds have, i am surprised no one fugured it out sooner. good job to the ones who did that, cheers
~FFTL4LIFE~
Patch this as soon as possible otherwise they will not make money, and why do all the Xbox 360 hacking videos have the top of the console taken off, I'm still not fully convinced of the video seeing as we can't see the back of the tv.
No matter how much some people try to blame the problem on user error, the 360 has a massive problem scratching disc. And no it is not because 'some idiot moved the machine while playing'.
The 360 will scratch every disc you put in it, the only question is how badly and how long before it completely trashes the disc for good. Being able to back up and never have to put my original games in the machine will be a help with this hardware mess Microsoft has on their hands.
This is the "piracy" hack. A way to cleanly boot non-Microsoft content would be more useful. Microsoft probably couldn't do much about that legally; if you own the unit, you have no obligation to play only approved content.
DRM is a stupid idea. It never stops hackers but it stops the average consumer from having the full use of the device they've legally bought. Making backups should be a fully protected right. Not a limited number of backup copies - as many as I happen to want to make. If I make a backup and then run it over with my car it shouldn't matter because my original is in a safe location and I can just make a new backup.
Of course 'backup' for the copy you're using isn't a very good term.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
Spell cheek you've failed me four the last thyme!
the hack has not been released to the public (because it will be mainly used for piracy) :-)
It is sad to see so much cynicism in the world
${YEAR+1} is going to be the year of Linux on the desktop!
I always thought that was a pretty good area of attack right there.
Ryan T. Sammartino
"Ancora imparo"
I would expect that they said this to try to stop the immediate actions of Microsoft, who are probably not very pleased with this. I would believe that one of the people that have developed this hack will discreetly leak it to some torrent site, after which it will spread like wildfire.
I wish they would release it at once. It will come out eventually. It's a great powerful machine will tons of cool feats, and I know lots of people dyeing to make homebrew/linux-ports/apps for it.
If Smith and Wesson didn't release they're gun to the public because it would mainly be used for killing, and it was fully automatic, night vision, etc. then it probably is used for killing.
it's not so much "scratching" as it is "burning a series of tiny little rings in these DVDs as if they were vinyls exactly how fast is this thing spinning jesus christ the disc is actually hot"
The nature of the hack is that it masks a DVD-R as a factory pressed DVD. So all it lets you do, is boot 100% copies of existing titles. To boot homebrew, or imports, you'd need to crack the digital signature, or hack the main firmware, which hasn't happened. So there'll probably be pretty good piracy / 'backup' mod-chips available soon, but no homebrew yet.
It was probably just an oversight, given it's probably about time a hack for the 360 came out, but did anyone else notice they showed everything hooked up nice and neat to the front of the TV, but never went around to the back of it to show that there wasn't another 360 plugged in there?
If the Media Connect thing streamed any type of video to the 360, I'd retire my Xbox with XBMC already. As it is, I have to wait until someone breaks the box to let me work around it.
I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that thinking, and that is why I watch this sort of thing with baited breath.
Really, this could impact the future of PS3 much more than the delay or Blue Ray/HD DVD madness.
From the post:
the hack has not been released to the public
From Jane Austen's "Emma":
'It's to be a secret, I conclude,' said he. These matters are always a secret, till it is found out that everybody knows them. Only let me be told when I may speak out.'"
Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
Depending on who you ask, copyright infringement is a much more serious crime than murder...
quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
That's like Smith & Wesson not releasing their latest gun because "it would be mainly used for killing".
Well, to be fair, killing is not illegal per se. I don't know about self defense (manslaughter?), but killing enemy combatants in a war and hunting animals are very often legal.
IANAL, but I think just releasing this hack could be illegal by itself under the DMCA.
Are you sure about that? Yes, increased sales of the console itself gives MS a larger installed base for their console, which is normally good when purchases of licensed titles are the result. However, if the ONLY reason for purchasing a 360 is to run pirated games, then it's not necessarily a good thing for MS. They aren't making money on each console sale, after all.
It's clear that the submitter of the article doesn't think the moral case for this type of thing is strong enough to stand on its own. He has to help it along, and slightly mislead his audience despite the fact that the vast majority of the copies this is used for will be pirated copies rather than backup copies.
;)
Huh? The submitter wrote, right there in the summary, "it will be mainly used for piracy". I really don't see how he could have been any blunter about it. It does not look to me like there is any attempt being made to mislead readers in any way whatsoever.
But I'm not surprised to see a response like yours. However someone phrases it, there's always someone who thinks they should have phrased it more strongly. I expect that even if the submitter had opened the article with "Filthy bloodsucking terrorist pedophile pirates have raped America's freedom once again in a savage assault on the copyright protections that keep our children safe", then someone would still have complained that he was being too sympathetic to them...
I remember hackers speaking of how easy hacking the Xbox 360 will be, that it will only take hours once it is released.
Now, 4 months after the release, they manage to hack a disc. Microsoft sure has given them a challenge this time.
I'm guessing the good researchers figured if they publicly took the credit AND released the code, they'll be in the crosshairs of (MS||HomelandSec:-s||Feds||++) in a minute. If its not already illegal (isnt it?) , it'll probably soon be.
e nt..
So they figure they wont release the code.
They say, hey its possible.
They say, hey this is the exact result.
They say, hey this is how we've been going abt it these past few months.
They say, sorry folks, y'know we'd love to spread the good hack around, but y'know
piracy's piracy, and we dont want to get in range of the long arm of the law.
24 hrs later.
Ult.XBoxHack.360.FirmwareUpdate.CRaCkED.l33T.torr
They say, huh what??
Well, Good Luck...
"the hack has not been released to the public (because it will be mainly used for piracy)"
Then why did they bother? Testing XP or linux to see if its security is working is one thing. That has real world consequences. Testing it is a noble cause IMHO. Hacking the firmware of a gaming system make get done to "boot linux" but we all know the real world implication here. I don't frown on this morally one bit but let's not kid ourselves here. Information may want to be free, but people want free games even more.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
I suppose microsoft could detect this on live by scanning the dvd drives firmware, but the data contained on the firmware itself could easily be spoofed. The other software on the xbox has to relie on whatever the firmware itself says it has. Somebody could just add code to the firmware that sends false data to external reads. All it has to do is report whatever data the console would expect it to have and then detection would become impossible.
People who would want to cheat on xbox live would be out of luck, since afterall, the signature checks are still in place.
Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
Neither is creating a backup copy of software you have purchased, nor is utilising that backup copy. As for the DMCA, there is an explicit exception for reverse engineering for interoperability that does not limit it to interoperability of software with other systems. It could just as easily be read to allow modification for interoperability with other software.
There was Cowboy Neal at the wheel of a bus to never-ever land.
no
Phfft. What garbage. If you arent going to release, it why even bother telling anyone? Its not like your work can be replicated ( proved ) and it makes you look like you are just making it up.
" i found out the secret of area 51, but since it might be used improperly , ill just not tell you the details ".. its about as valid as he story subject.
And as a disclaimer, im not a gamer.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
In order to run arbitrary code, two things are needed:
- The Xbox needs to boot from DVD recordable discs. (this news means that's been done)
- The encryption that checks whether or not the executable code is "signed" needs to be overcome. (yet to be done)
So, this is important. The next part is probably harder, though.
Proof, rather than anecdote? I find it hard to believe that the XBox 360's drive is substantially different than any other drive that is out there, and is actually worse than the thousands of different drives that have been employed for years and years.
Please provide some actual proof of increased scratches compared to another drive or console.
Yeah, I know. The other day, it froze up in the middle of a game after I had been playing for a while so I take the disc out and it was so hot I droped it.
Someone save me from this sanity.
Uh.... Huh. You're a man, are you, Mr Anonymous Coward?
If you want to stop scratches on your original games, use d_skin protectors... Every game should have one... http://www.gamestop.com/product.asp?product_id=801 784
Your irony, however, is not dying.
Wrong. You are not downloading their backups, you are downloading a copy of the game INTENDED TO BE ILLEGALLY DISSEMINATED. Backups do not imply copyright violations. Warez and backups ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS.
The Yasashii Syndicate ||
Like it or not, "backup" is the term of art in these circles. And as others have noted, the submitted was pretty clear in identifying piracy as the main application for this hack.
Had my 360 since December 05; not a scratch to be seen. I call BS.
This is easily faked by plugging a second console into the tv's inputs on the back of the tv.
They don't show the inputs on the back or mention how the "hack" was done for obvious reasons - it doesn't exist, at least not yet.
I could see the digg kids being fooled, but slashdot?
The 360 will scratch every disc you put in it...
It was supposed to just scratch off the green ink from the edge. I guess they went a bit overboard.
What?
Amen, brother.
I found the d_skin protectors on sale for a pack of 30, and they have been nothing but a blessing. Anyone who is paranoid (like me) about scratching up their disks even slightly should definitely look into buying a pack.
It's a HELL of a lot cheaper to replace a scratched up d_skin protector than it is a $50 game.
slashdot!=valid HTML
Well, you can take a look at the PS2, with lots of games published, and lots of games sold. Was the PS2 crackable? Of course. So, there's no implicit relationship between. The experience seems to tell otherwise.
Now I am sad.
Why? Then we'd just kill each other with bows, swords, knifes, clubs, and pretty much any instrument that can be fashioned into a weapon. Clearly history is full of killing before guns were created. Our murderousness is by no means the fault of a gun or any other inanimate object. The removal of these objects from society isn't going to make it a better place. Even if we could remove all potential weapons we'd still just resort to using fists.
If anything, guns are a boon to society, as they are an equalizer. With guns, it isn't just the strong that can kill, but also the meek. As such, they can act as a deterrent, as even the frail looking old lady could be packing lethal firepower.
Now, if you're arguing that the world would be a great place if everybody refused to make or use anything as a weapon, that's another thing. But then all it takes is a single person to ruin that and everybody else is at a disadvantage. I think we're probably better off just having powerful deterrents, even if it isn't as dreamy as world peace and love.
If not now, when?
Parent hit the nail right on the head. It's called plausible deniability.
There's a Starman, waiting in the sky / He'd like to come and meet us, but he hasn't got the time.
I had a copy of Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory (PS2). I loved playing it; it was a fun game.
Then I got drunk and stepped on it.
It stopped working, unsurprisingly.
The same (more or less) happened with SOCOM 1 (fortunately, about a day and a half before 2 came out) and Star Wars Battlefront 1.
If I had a backup, I could still play all of these games. Sooner or later, my other games will go bad.
And let's not forget all the movie DVDs; Bourne Identity, Star Wars I (well, no big loss, there), Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, S1M0N3... unplayable. This is just the stuff that springs to mind, for no particular reason. I'm sure I could fill Mister Goatse's "storage space" with the entire catalogue.
For every person who believes that we shouldn't have the ability to make copies of games or movies because it will lead to piracy, there's someone who wishes like hell they could after one goes bad, either due to user fault, or just because the media sucks.
Assume I was drunk when I posted this.
There should be a mod option that's something like '-1 Guerilla Mktg' for posts like this.
Killing in self-defense for the most part is legal (i.e. it's not just mitigated to manslaughter, you get completely off).
In America, you can almost always stand your ground and fight back against an attacker. However, you can only kill in self-defense if the attacker threatens serious bodily harm or death. In your home, you will most likely get off even if he is threatening serious bodily harm.
I believe in a few states though and England, you are required to flee from the attacker if able to so safely. Therefore, in those places your ability kill in self-defense is very limited. America has for the most part rejected such a doctrine. Many American judges throughout history have even gone so far as to call those who flee "cowards" and have stated that it is the right of every human being to "stand his ground."
Admittedly, it's also the reason I have an Xbox in the first place; a friend of mine had to scrap his when the DVD-ROM drive just up and started not reading discs with the kind of reliability you need to actually, well, play them. So I have an Xbox, hacked it, but the way to play games is to copy them over my LAN onto the HDD, or sometimes one can convince the disc drive to copy a game to the hard drive, but it's impossible to actually play legit games legitimately.
- tape).
What I've done instead is turn it into a media system (playing downloaded or ripped movies and TV shows when I'm not playing from my computer, ex. if I'm bringing it to a friends' house and they don't have their home system set up to play videos from their computers) and also an emulator; my old NES broke a few years ago, much to my dismay, but now once again I can play Super Mario 3 on a console! Granted, it's a bit insane to be playing those kinds of games on a system as much more advanced as the Xbox, but that just makes it oddly more delicious.
So basically, because MS used rather defective DVD-ROM drives, they really don't get much money from me for the Xbox (other than a controller I bought; the others I have are also either second-hand or even second-hand-patched-back-together-with-electrical
But to me that's the best part of the Xbox, using it as a true multimedia piece of electronics. It's even relatively portable; not as portable as a laptop, but a hell of a lot less expensive and certainly much more portable than a full tower and all its peripherals. If the 360 was truly hacked, I would be quite interested in it; I would probably even buy legit games and all, it's just that it doesn't have the selling point if I can't have stuff like the XBMC or my old NES games on it.
I remember sigs. Oh, a simpler time!
I think it would have been safer to use a nonstandard DVD drive which rejects burnt DVDs right away. It is trickier to hack a drive's firmware I believe. Extra security measures would have to ensure the drive is not swapped out against a standard drive.
--- Eat my sig.
Hah! I always backup or NoCD my games, ever since a Kingdom Under Fire CD went *crack-boom* in my CD drive during play. I had to take out the drive and shake pixie dust out of it. :(
And you bet your ass I got a replacement 'backup' from a friend.
In a fair world, refrigerators would make electricity.
Will this allow us to boot other region dvds as well (JP or EU games)
That post REEKS of marketing shill. Especially since it's your first comment ever.
Congratulations SpryWeb you're the first person to ever make my foe list.
Question everything
Better yet, don't buy SHIT THAT BREAKS in the first place!
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
If you look at the design of the 360's security system, you will see that they have taken *extreme* measures to protect against running unauthorized software, but very little protection against piracy. The anti-piracy system is more or less the same as it was on Xbox 1.
It's very obvious that Microsoft cares much more about blocking Linux and Xbox Media Player than it does about piracy. They have their priorities way out of whack.
Melissa
"Screw Sun, cross-platform will never work. Let's move on and steal the Java language." - Visual J++ Product Manager
I have to wonder if all the console is looking for is the dvds booktype wouldnt a Dvd +r burner with bitsetting enabled meet this requirement without the console being modified at all?
A video with annoying music doesn't give me much confidence that this is real. However, I've thought from the beginning that the DVD firmware was the 360's greatest weakness, although I didn't know if it had to be signed or something.
This isn't just a "Oh, I'll put this firmware on a disk and load it up and Bam!, insta-pirate!". This is a firmware for the DVD-ROM, which you first have to A) physically open up the XBox360 B) Then remove the DVD-ROM C) then desolder the firmware chip D) then read the firmware and figure out where to edit, because each DVD-ROM has a unique ID tag E) then you have to reprogram the chip using specialized equipment F) reinstall the chip and hope you didn't ruin a $400+ machine G) get a good copy of a game and hopefully it'll work.
Currently, this is *far* harder than the average modchip. Since each chip has to be custom-programmed, this isn't an easy hack, even if you did have the hacked firmware available.
Still, hopefully this is a taste of things to come. The 360 has been only out for 4 months, and this is much better progress than with the original XBox.
"We've hacked MS's copy-protection"
"we've given a rough idea about how we did it"
"We're not going to release the details for fear of piracy"
Guess who's waiting for a fat MS cheque for 'security consultancy' in the post over the next couple of days.
...this looks like the golden oppotuninty Microsoft will use to relase the HD-DVD enabled version of the Xbox360 "that was never coming out!". It gives them carte blanche to release it with a "valid" excuse. Expect in about 3 months or just before the PS3 to be rereleased with a new "protected AND upgraded machine, for your benefit"
It might also be a way to increase sales, correct me if im wrong but dont easily piratable machines seems to enjoy a larger machine market share which is just what MS want?
I think this is a case of a group of guys looking at the hacker stuff on a webpage to see what is plausible with the information. Then claiming they succeeded, knowing unless someone does exactly what they did, no one can prove it wrong. And that is why they won't release it. You don't see the back of the tv, so a different xbox can be hooked up to it in the back. Also if you watch the cable on the left side of the screen, it never shows the full cable. The cable could easily be going off the table and a new one from another xbox coming onto the table. They just coiled it up so you would still perceive that it's all one cable. I feel sorry for all the guys on tha forum giving the guys who did this high praise and thanks, while ignoring the noob flaws in the video.
So there'll probably be pretty good piracy / 'backup' mod-chips available soon, but no homebrew yet.
Oh, I don't know about that. Do you think it would even be worth anyone making one if it only allowed you to play pirated games? It's hard to see how they could hope to turn a profit if they couldn't sell it to all those people that just want to run Linux and Gameboy emulators on their 360. It's just economies of scale.
Uh.. except for the lack of any kind of affiliate link..
Seriously, let's say he WAS related to d_skin somehow.. if he really was looking to market these things, why would he waste effort on a one-time slashdot post buried on a page somewhere?
Even if he WAS in it for marketing, his point's still valid. I happen to own d_skins too, and they're a damn good product that have saved my ass more than once from well-meaning idiots handling my discs. It's sad how quickly you'd add someone to a foe list based on paranoid instincts they might be in it to sell something..
slashdot!=valid HTML
Either way, 360 devs are shitting themselves right about now. When this happened with the Dreamcast, developer support disappeared and went to the PS2.
I have a feeling a lot of current XBox360 projects are about to be turned into PS3 projects.
Further, 17 USC 512(c)(1) provides that: "Nothing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use, under this title." Combine that with 17 USC 117(a), which reads:
and, I at least, come to the conclusion that 512 cannot prevent you from making and using a backup copy. You have the right to the backup copy. You have the right to use the any copy if it is "an essential step," as it would be if you had a backup and your original was damaged. Since you have that right under Title 17 and section 512 explicitly does not affect other rights under that Title, section 512 cannot be used to prevent you from modifying access control devices to allow the use of legitimate backups.There was Cowboy Neal at the wheel of a bus to never-ever land.
akkk! %s/512/1201/g
There was Cowboy Neal at the wheel of a bus to never-ever land.
did you read the post he replied to?
I dont see why everybody here is accusing this group of faking their results. This work has been documented and been going on for sometime in the xboxhacker.net forums. Virtually the same hack was developed for the original xbox along the way and being able to adapt that firmware for the updated version of the LG/Hitachi from the first xbox to the new drive was only a matter a time.
At the time of my posting, you had a score of 5, informative, for posting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyZQ4k7Bi-8 but from youtube:
A hk...4 98519
Sites linking to this video:
826 clicks from http://www.xbox-scene.com/
236 clicks from http://xbox-scene.com/
185 clicks from http://www.xbox-scene.com/xbox1data/sep/EEukZpklF
96 clicks from http://www.xbox-scene.com/index.php?newsview=1
53 clicks from http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=
they haven't been slashdotted yet! Not even 53 clicks from slashdot? oh well...
Referenced was "Microsoft aims for hack-proof 360" from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4218670.stm where Chris Satchell of Xbox states, "There are going to be levels of security in this box that the hacker community has never seen before."
A funny quote from the above article, "With the 360, Microsoft is aiming to make it as hard as possible to hack."
Even harder than consoles that will be released a hundred years from now?
Another interesting note, "But Mr Satchell admitted no system was fool-proof and that, with enough time and dedication, the security on the Xbox 360 would be broken."
So, they are admitting that over time (4 months in this case), hackers will bypass any given security. It makes me wonder if the months of time and millions of dollars that companies spend on false security is worth it when probably more than 99% of consumers are going to legitimately buy all of their games because they have only recently mastered setting the time on their VCR.
Yeah this is more anti Xbox propaganda. I've had my 360 since launch. Ive played all manner of 360 and xbox titles, as well as movies and burned media, with no scratching. It hasnt burned my house down either.
If yours has a problem call MS. By many accounts they are quite helpful.
Uh-oh. Kutaragi's gonna come after me now....
d_skin is the only company that I know of that has this solution, so it's not really marketing
Just because something's innovative doesn't mean it's not marketing.
Oh, and they don't work, and they cost too much relative to the price of a new blank disc.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Because we all know it's possible to make a torrent to do this for you:
1) Get the key out of the firmware.
2) Put the key into the cracked firmware.
3) Flash the cracked firmware back onto the chip.
And let's not forget, you have to do all of this directly to the firmware chip. There's no known way to flash it without physically unsoldering it, then flashing it with a separate tool, then soldering it back on.
Oh, and why in the name of all that is holy do people insist on making torrents of these? Do you know how big firmware is? Probably barely bigger than the torrent file itself would be.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Yeah, I can see it now A car pulls up, the windows roll down the bows and arrows come out. But do you seriously think it makes the world a better or saver place if everybody has access to a gun?
Thinking about it, I see the possibility for black market for pre-hacked Xbox DVD drives (send in your old one and get it back hacked etc.) that have been pre-moded with a firmware "bank" selector switch, to enable the user to select for original code (for games that check for it) and the hacked code.
.... !
In fact the switch could act as a safety device that also cuts out the network port link when in the "hacked bank" mode (just add more pole/throws to the switch and route one of the Ethernet Tx or Rx wires through it) so you don't accidentally get banned.
In addition these enterprising companies could also offer an "ultra" version that has programmer and interface built into / hanging off the DVD drive which comes out to an external connector port so you can easily link to your Xbox DVD drive to a PC for future DVD firmware updates without opening the case again.
Of course this would all be for "fair use" of something (?)
Yeah, I can see it now A car pulls up, the windows roll down the bows and arrows come out.
Sure, why not? A crossbow could easily be used for such short range combat, is relatively compact, and taking up a space no larger than a rifle can easily launch an arrow at speeds in excess of 300 feet per second. It doesn't fire as fast, but if you're a sure shot or have a couple people at it then it doesn't matter so much.
Or, if you prefer, a van with a group of thugs just rolls up, the thugs jump out, rip somebody from their car and beat them bloody. You think the gangs of the world are just going to pack it in because there aren't any means of killing as convenient as a gun?
But do you seriously think it makes the world a better or saver place if everybody has access to a gun?
Yes. It isn't that difficult for criminals to procure guns. It's even easier for a physically strong person to turn any old item, like a baseball bat, into a weapon. A law against guns merely means somebody who commits a crime with one has committed two crimes. That isn't prevention. It makes nobody safer. The deed is done.
It also means denying an object that would level the playing field to the average Joe who's being threatened by the burly punk with the bat. I think the world would be safer (perhaps not for violent criminals) if everybody was taught how to properly handle, care for, and use a gun, self defense laws were more sane, and more people carried. Perhaps then crime perpetrated by those except for the truly desperate would fall when every person on the street has the potential to return lethal fire.
I'm not saying anybody should desire to use their guns. Part of being responsible with a gun is not using it unless you are absolutely forced to. The last thing a person should want to do is to unleash lethal firepower. But to ban something so useful on account of the actions of people who just use whatever weapon is most convenient isn't going to stop those people.
If not now, when?
Even though all those pre-firearms weapons can be used for killing people, they are all much safer to "use", as one can hardly accidentally kill someone with them.
- That's how it happened officer... I was cleaning my bow, and I didn't know there was an arrow on the string, and then the bow fired by itself...
- That's how it happened officer... I was carrying my sword while I thought the safety was on, but then when I dropped it on the floor, it bounced all the way across the room to go hit the man who was standing there...
- Thats' how it happened officer... My son was playing in the basement and found this club that I keep in a drawer. He wanted to show it to his friend, but being only 8, he didn't know how to properly handle a club, and then he accidentally clubbed his friend to death...
Even if we could remove all potential weapons we'd still just resort to using fists.
It happens. Some kid gets ridiculed, other kids laugh at him, call him names, etc. The kid gets mad, uses his fists and beats up the other kids. Teachers come in, they stop the fight, results in a couple of kids with bruises. Or, if that kid has access to a gun (because, I don't know... he lives in a country where people feel they have a god-given right to own a gun), he takes the gun to school and then fires at kids. Results in 14 dead and 24 wounded, welcome to Columbine.
Guns are not the only factor involved in the killing of people, but they are a facilitator. Face it, guns help kill people.
After 3 days without programming, life becomes meaningless
- The Tao of Programming
It amuses me that this story was tagged 'piracy', but not 'fair use'. I guess even us Slashdotters have been sucked in by the propaganda.
Stasis is death. Embrace change.
Even though all those pre-firearms weapons can be used for killing people, they are all much safer to "use", as one can hardly accidentally kill someone with them.
Three words, proper gun safety. When people are taught properly and know well enough to fear and respect the gun as a weapon then there aren't so many problems. When people get sloppy and forget their gun is loaded or let their eight year old play with a loaded, unlocked gun then you get trouble. If you can't observe proper gun safety you have no business owning a gun. There are many people who have no trouble whatsoever owning and maintaining their guns safely.
Further, it isn't like guns are the only things that cause accidents or injury. In third grade one of my better friends took a baseball bat to the head after accidentally walking up behind somebody taking practice swings. He was hospitalized for a week. The doctors said 1/4 inch further back and he'd have died. In high school (and a nice suburban one at that), somebody took a skateboard to another kid and put him in a coma for two weeks, nearly killed him. Authorities had no time to step in on that one. None of the other kids in the hall thought to intervene. These two are lucky to be alive, they could have easily been killed by an object other than a gun.
Results in 14 dead and 24 wounded, welcome to Columbine.
What, that was four kids, premeditated intent to kill, right? You don't think they could have come up with a plan to get that many using live blades? It might involve a little more cunning than walking in and starting to shoot, but we're talking about cutting down unarmed people. Please enlighten me to what action a teacher is going to take to step in and prevent that.
Face it, guns help kill people.
Absolutely they help kill people. I'm not arguing they don't. I'm merely stating that people will kill people regardless of the existance of guns. If anything, guns provide a more equal playing field for that killing. Instead of the physically strong abusing the meek or even the average, anybody has the capability to inflict lethal damage. I'm not claiming anybody should want to, but merely removing guns wholesale won't stop the killing.
It isn't that guns kill or cause people to kill. The gun is only a danger in the hands of somebody irresponsible or malicious.
If not now, when?
Maybe game piracy is part of their plans to get a larger market share. If playing pirated games isn't too difficult, then more people will buy 360's and presumably be onboard the Xbox bandwagon. Of course, they can't make it too easy to play pirated games.
until some enterprising individual(s) make light of this information to help construct a mod chip to bypass the security of the xbox 360. I feel that microsoft came out with a very arrogant stance of almost " you can't hack this" despite what this chris character is quoted as saying. I've said before if there is money to be made in locking something then there is also money to be made in unlocking something. At this rate I predict a mod-chip(s) that will permenantly bypass msft xbox360 security by years end.
These jokers didn't hack anything. This is a total fake. Their video is cut and there's another measure of security they didn't even mention. This is all BS. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure modding the 360 is only a matter of time... I just think the way these guys have been manipulating digg and slashdot comments says a lot. YOU GUYS ARE FAKES!
A hungry man will tell you anything if you give him a cookie.
given the recent bashing that was offered to the chap who managed to get Windows running on the Mac.
I'm not saying I'm 100% convinced, just that saying that there could be a second machine plugged into the TV doesn't mean that it _has_ been faked.
F_T
I think recent history has taught us that the user cannot be trained properly in anything. This might sound like an exageration, but you could take what you just said and replace references to guns with references to a lot of things and it would sound just as right...
Proper car safety. When people are taught properly and know well enough to fear and respect the massive amount of steel they are riding, then there wouldn't be as much speeding. When people get sloppy and drink and drive or drive recklessly in residential areas, then you get trouble. The so-called need for a driver's licence doesn't make cars safer because the people think they have a god-given right to drive a vehicle, and they keep driving it even when they lose their licence.
Proper computer safety. When people are taught properly and know well enough not to open email attachements and not to browse the web using Internet Explorer and without a decent firewall and antivirus, then there aren't so many problems. When people get sloppy and use IE to browse the web just because it was already there, and double click on every PamNude.exe file they get, then you get trouble.
And I could keep going...
Further, it isn't like guns are the only things that cause accidents or injury. In third grade one of my better friends took a baseball bat to the head after accidentally walking up behind somebody taking practice swings.
Hey... guess what? Accidents happen. Thing is, the primary purpose of a baseball bat is to hit a baseball during a game in order to have fun. The primary purpose of a gun is to kill. I don't have the numbers and I won't pull them out of my ass, but I'm pretty sure there are way fewer deaths-by-baseball-bat than death by shooting in the US, both accidental and willful.
What, that was four kids, premeditated intent to kill, right? You don't think they could have come up with a plan to get that many using live blades? It might involve a little more cunning than walking in and starting to shoot, but we're talking about cutting down unarmed people. Please enlighten me to what action a teacher is going to take to step in and prevent that.
First off, depending on the size of the blade, you might have a better chance of survival from a knife stab than from a gun shot, unless of course the blade is more like a sword, but then swords shouldn't be allowed either. And it's much harder to massively kill people with a knife than with a gun, I never heard of a semi-automatic knife. And although some might get hurt in the process, a bunch of people can jump on the knife wielder and pin him to the ground. While he has a gun, he can shoot them all before they can even reach him. It's easier to kill people with a gun than with a knife.
Instead of the physically strong abusing the meek or even the average, anybody has the capability to inflict lethal damage.
Yet, in a whole school where there were what, some hundreds, maybe thousands of people (I really have no idea of the size of the school), nobody had what they needed to inflict lethal damage to the shooters in order to protect themselves.
After 3 days without programming, life becomes meaningless
- The Tao of Programming
"less feature-full" = "no online play".
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
The general idea that I've always assumed from a society that has many guns being carried is that there's no way to shoot somebody when there are others around since they'll all just draw on the threat. Of course, that requires people to overcome their apathy towards others, which may be a large flaw. But shooting to kill in a crowd with guns is probably a good way to have people shoot to kill you quickly. As far as one on one gun battles in the back alley, well, any fight away from others is going to favor the element of surprise, with or without guns.
And no, never the momentary homocidal impulse, sorry. I can imagine a course of action that would lead to death, but I've never considered actually killing anybody.
Oh, also, people who have been shooting tend to have traces of gunpowder on themselves. Not necessarily damning like another's blood, but still noteworthy.
If not now, when?
And I could keep going...
By all means, do. All I'm hearing is that people who don't respect what they're using hurt themselves or others. I'd argue for mandatory gun training and registration. Anybody who cannot show proper respect for the weapon doesn't get one. As far as I know there are not rigorous, mandatory classes before one can own a gun. That's a problem. People aren't being trained properly. Just this training is unlikely to cut down the injury from malicious users, but would go a long way towards addressing accidents.
Thing is, the primary purpose of a baseball bat is to hit a baseball during a game in order to have fun. The primary purpose of a gun is to kill.
There is such a thing as recreational shooting. Trap, skeet, target, any of those ring a bell? I've never shot at anything living and I'm quite certain that I haven't used a weapon improperly because of that. I wouldn't even make the claim that I've used guns for things outside of their purpose. The purpose of a gun is to fire a projectile. The wielder of that gun chooses the target. It is a gun's purpose to kill as much as it is a bat or club's.
unless of course the blade is more like a sword, but then swords shouldn't be allowed either
Because I'm sure it'd be easy to prevent the sale of any sort of metal that could be fashioned to hold an edge. I'm pretty sure those kids weren't permitted to have guns in the school either, and yet there they were. That's my whole point, it's the murderousness of certain individuals, not the tool they use to do the murdering. Don't claim removal of one object that can be used to kill will prevent murderous individuals from murdering. It won't.
And although some might get hurt in the process, a bunch of people can jump on the knife wielder and pin him to the ground. While he has a gun, he can shoot them all before they can even reach him.
Thanks for the laugh there, one of the best things I've heard in a while. Given the size of a general classroom and roughly 25 people in it, your average shooter would have real troubles trying to track that many objects rushing him, aiming and firing at the targets, and actually hitting and killing these targets. Factor in the number of rounds a gun holds, rate of fire, and the actual proximity of the groups of victims and if the mob mentality actually formed you'd have nearly the same situation as with a knife. But the mob didn't form, not that you can really blame them for it. I don't see why it'd have gone differently with swords.
Yet, in a whole school where there were what, some hundreds, maybe thousands of people (I really have no idea of the size of the school), nobody had what they needed to inflict lethal damage to the shooters in order to protect themselves.
Which leads to the next point, why are guns so restricted that when somebody does have one and begins to use it illegally that it turns into a slaughter? Can you imagine how differently things might have gone if just the teachers had guns? How about if 20% of the student body was carrying?
If not now, when?
It's a good point... well, as not exactly my first post :) ... I've been seeing scratches appearing on my XBox 360 discs, and one actually had to go back because it stoped playing. I ordered some d_skins, which arrived this morning - they're kinda funky, but rather expensive. Also, they make my XBox 360 drive make weird noises, mostly a freaky grinding noise when the disc spins up - I suspect they're just aggravating a dying drive, though.
Erm, yeah, some sort of conclusion... if you're worried about scratches, they seem a good solution so far. I'd rather have a $1 d_skin die rather than a $60 XBox 360 game, and all that...
Well, I think using a gun to kill somebody is very different then killing someone with a knife. Giving everybody acces to guns is not the way to make the world saver. It's like saying giving every country access to nukes would make the world saver. The problem is that if the "bad guy" has a gun, "I" need one too. While you are the "bad guy" and "I" in the same instance. Preventing the "bad guy" from having a gun requires the same rules as you not owning a gun. We cannot predict when a "good" person turns "bad". The defintion of good and bad is a matter of opinion. IMO it's better to deny access to guns for everybody, then to allow it for everybody. I firmly beleive guns cause more deaths in environments where there allowed (easily available), then where there outlawed (meaning they are not easily available).