Deep Brain Stimulation as Depression Treatment

Neopallium writes "Medtronic, today announced its intentions to pursue a major clinical trial of the company's deep brain stimulation (DBS) technology in the treatment of severe and intractable depression, a disabling form of the psychiatric disorder affecting millions of people worldwide. "While not a cure, DBS has allowed these patients to return to much more functional and happy lives," said Dr. Rezai, who represented an international working group of physicians that has been studying the application of DBS therapy in the treatment of intractable depression and OCD in collaboration with Medtronic."

Comments

Uh... so in other words

[Anonymous Coward]

Stimpy has finally finished building his Happy Helmet?

Re:Uh... so in other words

[BiggerIsBetter]

You know that's actually a euphimism, right?

Stimulating

[Nefarious Wheel]

Now if I could just get some Deep Brain Coffee into me...

Re:Stimulating

[Anonymous Coward]

Deep brain stimulation has been proven effective in treating Parkinson's patients.

Interestingly, the caffeine dose equivalent to about 5 (five) cups of coffee per day has been shown to be effective in preventing Parkinson's.

Re:Stimulating

[Ohreally_factor]

I wish it was as simple as that. It would sure beat what I have to do now, which is sprinkle a layer of espresso-grind coffee into my shoes, score the bottoms of my feet with a razor blade, and then tie my shoelaces really tight, so as not to leave a trail of blood after me.

I think for what you're proposing, you'd need to attach some sort of reservoir for hot water on top of ones head, with a french press type plunger to force the caffeine past the blood/brain barrier.

Re:Stimulating

[moro_666]

5 of my cups of coffee will kill you before parkinson get's a chance to "shake things", so you're right.


Obligatory on the issue and slashdot:
I'd tell you the chances of this story being a dupe, but you wouldn't like it.
Oh, i feel so depressed.

(from the world famous 'linux n00bs guide to the internet')

Re:Stimulating

[linvir]

Wait. What are you putting in this coffee? Where are you getting this concentrated stuff from? I DEMAND TO KNOW! Tellmetellmetellmetellmetellme!

Re:Stimulating

[gstoddart]

Now if I could just get some Deep Brain Coffee into me...

Coffee made from brains? Ewwwww!!! =)

Re:Stimulating

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, no kidding. You get a very high chance of catching Mad Coffee Disease, or at least its human equivalent: variant Jumpy Crazy Fuckhead Disease.

Re:Stimulating

[macshune]

>Coffee made from brains? Ewwwww!!! =)

Where's a +5 Zombie when you need it?

Unexpected side-effects

[tomhudson]

This could have some rather unexpected negative side-effects. For example, Lincoln was prone to depression - if he had been less melancholic, perhaps he wouldn't have spent so much time brooding over the negative consequences of slavery to the union. Similarly, this could spell the end to a lot of literature ...

How depressing ...

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[0racle]

How depressing ...
They can fix that now.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Anonymous Coward]

Depression is normal. However reoccurring bouts of depression lasting long periods of time which remove your ability to function in everyday life is not normal. That is the difference. Lincoln might have been depressed but he could still function with some normalcy. These people can't.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[ectospasm]

You've got to remember that this will probably be used (at least at first) as an alternative treatment of major depression for when traditional (chemical) treatments do not work. It will most likely be used when the illness is debilitating, where the sufferer cannot function. Creating works of art (or performing any task which requires intense concentration) in a depressed state implies that there's a modicum of function. I know of people that cannot even put a single sentence together when they're most depressed.

As someone with bipolar disorder, I welcome any further additions to the repertoire of weapons we have against serious depression. I just hope no one in the trials commits suicide, a common occurrance of people who are just beginning to have their depression lifted.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[jb.hl.com]

I read an interesting theory somewhere that depression is just a manifestation of problems with current society, and that by attempting to treat it as an illness all we're doing is papering over the cracks, so to speak, and masking those problems.

Just a theory, but thought it had some relevance to your post.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[BiggerIsBetter]

I just hope no one in the trials commits suicide, a common occurrance of people who are just beginning to have their depression lifted.

That's an interesting turn of events. You feel too depressed to do anything, then you start to come out of it. You still feel really down, but have the motivation to not want to feel like that anymore... yet can't imagine a lasting brighter future without coming back down again.

So what's the obvious solution when you don't want to live that way, and don't believe you have an alternative? You make a choice to stop living. It seems very reasonable at the time (been close a few times myself).

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Anonymous Coward]

For crying out loud, call a crisis hotline or a friend next time you feel like harming yourself. You're no good to us unless you're here alive and well.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[pipingguy]

Is there some kind of well-rounded, adequately-functioning, happy-with-life mediocre model that we all should be striving towards becoming?

I'd like to know what that ideal is and who defines it.

Sure, there *are* rambling homeless people, depressed people and confused people out there, but hasn't this always been the case? Or is the general consensus that it happens more often now and needs treatment?

I've known quite a few people that might be considered "a bit off", but as long as they are not hurting others, where's the harm in treating them as eccentrics or oddballs and just accepting them for how they are? Or does everyone have to "fit in" these days? Honest questions.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[The Creator]

They can fix that now.

How depressing...

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[pipingguy]

I read an interesting theory somewhere that depression is just a manifestation of problems with current society, and that by attempting to treat it as an illness all we're doing is papering over the cracks, so to speak, and masking those problems.

I think that that is a very valid theory, if not actually true. It fits well with many posters here (never before have so many been able to communicate with so many others without being judged by their appearance or feeling peer pressure). As a result, many people that post here don't give a shit about outside pressures to conform, they just write what they think. Of course, I typically read at +5 and most comments at that level are at the least thought-provoking if not enlightening.

I saw an interview with Zeldman (Amber from G4, Canada) and the guy came across as a total dork, definitely not TV-pretty. But the guy is brilliant tech-wise. Some would put him down or attack him for being different.

Show me a fragile mind and I'd be able to do some real damage to it if I felt the need to tear someone else down in order to build myself up. That's typically what cowards do.

I'm a father and I know damn well that you treat everyone with respect. It's not even a religious thing, it just makes sense to do so.

On the other hand, some people (almost always males) are insecure, and crapping on others tends to be a learned behaviour. Read whatever psychology you want into that.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[d'alz]

i agree, there is a risk factor involved in this. More over, not all depression is completely curable. People prone to getting depressed could very well take these drugs and cure their current dilemma. But it could just give birth to another in some time. Then we will not only have a half cured depressed person but also a strain of reasons leading to depression in the same person. Gosh thats riskin one person going through a little too much depression don't you think?

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Orgazmus]

Or does everyone have to "fit in" these days?
Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.
Heh.

Look at todays youth, and their clothing and music taste. Its much more diverse than 60-70 years ago.

I've known quite a few people that might be considered "a bit off", but as long as they are not hurting others, where's the harm in treating them as eccentrics or oddballs and just accepting them for how they are?
The problem is when they start hurting themselves. As long as the chance of making their lives a bit better exists, it would be wrong not to try. Of course they must be willing to accept the help at some point. You cant force anyone to better themselves.
I too have had problems with anxiety and depression, but i always snap out of it after a period of time. Not all of us are that lucky, and need help.
For some people, suicide seems like the only way out. If we can show them another path, I really think we should.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[adolfojp]

Depression should never be confused with melancholy or sadness. In fact, some people describe depression as the complete lack of an emotional response.

Concern, passion, and a troubled soul can embark you on a quest for change. Crossing the line into depression will only help cripple your chances.

Saying that you are depressed when you what you feel is sadness is like calling evolution "just a theory". Both evolution and depression are very specific scientific terms that have a completely different colloquial meaning.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[PrivateDonut]

Wow! Relax dude. They aren't talking about 'fixing' people... they are talking about curing the worst of the worst. The people who simply cannot function. "in the treatment of severe and intractable depression, a disabling form of the psychiatric disorder"

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[giorgiofr]

On the other hand, some people (almost always males) are insecure, and crapping on others tends to be a learned behaviour

I take it you have never spent some time in a group with lots of girls...

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Masa]

I've known quite a few people that might be considered "a bit off", but as long as they are not hurting others, where's the harm in treating them as eccentrics or oddballs and just accepting them for how they are? Or does everyone have to "fit in" these days?

These kind or treatments are not usually designed for curing oddities or eccentric behaviour. Well, not at least at the present time and civilized societies. Not so long time ago things were different. Anyway, these treatments are for helping people with depression, which cannot be handled with therapy or medication. ECT is another choice, and while it seems to be effective (and it actually is, if done properly and using enough medical background studies) but we do need more subtle and more accurate methods for helping these cases.

Funny that you say "as long as they are not hurting others", well, hopefully these kind of studies are able to save depressed people who are trying to hurt themselves. For my opinion, suicide is not a proper treatment for severe depression.

Anyway, I can see your point, but I think that no one is trying to create any kind of sunny smily-face happy-happy-joy-joy society. There certainly is a model that is strived towards, but it is used for these seriously depressed people that cannot function properly. And this is only because there has to be some sort of measurement for "normal" so we can tell, when the treatment is going to the right direction (unfortunately, some times patient his/herself cannot be a reliable source for this kind of information).

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Ohreally_factor]

Sure, there *are* rambling homeless people, depressed people and confused people out there, but hasn't this always been the case? Or is the general consensus that it happens more often now and needs treatment?

Your ignorance about the suffering of the mentally ill is quite charming. You might as well as, "Why don't the clinically depressed just cheer up?" Someone undergoing a major and debilitating depression isn't "a bit off" nor are they merely eccentric oddballs.

I'm sorry if this is a bit harsh; I believe you are sincere and that your questions, as you say, are honest. However, if you are honestly curious about mental illness, you might want to get a college textbook on abnormal psychology and read up on it. You are not going to get much light shone on your ignorance in the comments section of slashdot.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Ohreally_factor]

Certainly the modern world, our dystopian society, is a major part of all this. But I don't know that a chronically, clinically depressed person would want to wait for society to get fixed as a means of addressing their suffering. At the same time, however, perhaps it would be wise for such a person to at least partially disengage from the more corrosive aspects modern civilization (as we know it).

I have a friend who contends that the reason that everyone isn't depressed is because they're all delusional. =)

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[pipingguy]

I agree.

This touches me peripherally. My son is 15, and one of his same-age friends (not a close friend, mind you) hanged himself a few weeks ago. Apparently the boy had been getting picked-on for a long time and one day he snapped. He brought a steel bar to school and cracked a few bullies' heads.

The parent(s) of the bullies sued the family of the bullied. Now, obviously, this kid already had some problems, but 15 year-olds should not be attending funerals for classmates. That sort of thing just didn't happen when I was that age 30 years ago.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

I have a brain the size of a planet, you insensitive clod!

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[pipingguy]

I lived for a few decades with someone who thought they were being spied on by the KGB, so I know a little bit about the subject. That was an "interesting" experience, to say the least.

No need to apologize.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[braun]

There is no empirical data supporting such a stand. Guess you could say that depression is a mood disorder, not a personality-alterer.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[pipingguy]

Sounds like a dream come true!

But females tend to jockey for position using words. After dominance is established they all tend to get back together and be friends. Words can hurt real bad, but males (doing the same dominance thing) often use violence *and* words.

A young male that has been effectively emasculated by peers is a dangerous thing.

Recognizing that, what has to change? Should everyone get touchy-feely, "in harmony with their emotions" or should the picked-upon grow some balls and fight back? Or should the rest of the kids step in and say, "that's enough".

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[BVis]

"Snap out of it!" "Man up, Nancy!" "Quit whining!"

Not an especially constructive method of treatment. It's kind of hard to do that when your brain chemicals won't let you (if your problem is, in fact, organic, which this treatment seems to be targeted towards).

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[fireboy1919]

That's someone who's suffering from paranoid-delusions. Paranoid delusions isn't severe depression.

People with incredibly severe depression
-Hate their life. Suffer all the time because of it. To me, this speaks as reason #1 to do everything possible to treat them.
-May harm themselves or others. As a result of #1, they generally don't care about anything. The more severe, the less they care.
-Make incredibly bad decisions (recall that they don't care about anything)

Milder levels of depression - such as those experienced by Stephen King, for instance, can often be coped with, and can be used as a source of strength. But you have to be very careful here. Because of the harm that can be done, I think it is much worse to leave a dangerously depressed person undiagnosed than it is to diagnose someone as dangerously depressed who isn't.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Odocoileus]

As long as you are happy. I think that is the criteria. Most people that are living with depresion are not happy.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Anonymous Coward]

That is NOT what I was saying, you dickhead. Why don't you allow somebody to show some sympathy for somebody who might be in trouble? Maybe someday, you'll be in a place where you need some sympathy and I hope nobody interferes when someone steps up to help.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there some kind of well-rounded, adequately-functioning, happy-with-life mediocre model that we all should be striving towards becoming?

Hell yes! Play The Sims to see what it is. Seriously. Get a piece of paper, draw bars for you and each of the people you live with, and then make the changes to your life that you would if you were getting a Sim's bars up. Ponder the results.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[fdiskne1]

Is there some kind of well-rounded, adequately-functioning, happy-with-life mediocre model that we all should be striving towards

I sure wish I could find a well-rounded, adequately-functioning, happy-with-life mediocre model. That's MUCH better than the women I've met recently. But I don't want EVERYONE to strive towards her. Just me.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[cyriustek]

You bring up a great point.

I believe Ted Turner once explained that he would never use medication to control his manic depression. He believed his moments of mania to be responsible for much of his success like the creation of CNN.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Jedi Alec]

But females tend to jockey for position using words. After dominance is established they all tend to get back together and be friends. Words can hurt real bad, but males (doing the same dominance thing) often use violence *and* words.

Are you serious? When conflict between men gets out of hand it can escalate into outright hostility and perhaps even physical conflict, but at least both parties know what they're up against. Some harsh words might be said, maybe some blows exchanged and a new pecking order is established. Women on the other hand wage a constant war of attrition, smiling and joking with their enemies as though nothing is the matter, all the while plotting to plant a nailfile into their backs at the nearest opportunity. No man can harbor a good grudge like a woman.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[The Snowman]

Mr. Coward, you are correct. I had depression for a while. I learned quite a bit about what it is and how it works. First, you have so-called normal people. They may get sad and say they are depressed. These bouts may last days, for example, after a traumatic event such as the death of a spouse or parent. That is not real depression. Then there are people like me who were trapped in a bad situation for a long period of time and just couldn't deal with the pressure. That's just a worse case of the first scenario. Finally, there are the truly depressed people. They have a chemical or other imbalance in their brains that causes depression for no reason. Everything could be going well in life, and they just start crying, get into a funk, and can't get out of it. They may snap out of it and be okay for a while. Depression moves in cycles.

I read an article in one of the IEEE magazines about two months ago on exactly this topic. Essentially, physicians implant an electrode in the patients brain that stimulates the area responsible for depression, so it helps avoid those slumps. It has a similar function to SSRIs, aka Prozac and other drugs that mess around with serotonin, but with few if any side effects. Similar to a pacemaker, a surgeon can implant an electrode and small battery into the patient's head that requires infrequent maintenance (every few years). If this works long-term, I think it will be a very good thing. Many otherwise productive members of society are unable to function at times because of depression. If we can remove that depression, we are stronger as a society, an economy, and most importantly, as a family. I know what depression can do to a family. It isn't pretty.

Maybe Lincoln was depressed, maybe he was not. I am not an expert on that topic so I won't debate it. However, assuming he was, I think he would have been just as effective without the depression. Those same thoughts and tendancies in his brain would still be there, but he would have been clearer and more rational (not that he was or wasn't already, just more so). I know from experience that the times I was on the up part of my depression cycle I was clearer and more rational, but I still had the same thoughts. I just dealt with them better.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[The Snowman]

For crying out loud, call a crisis hotline or a friend next time you feel like harming yourself. You're no good to us unless you're here alive and well.

Obviously you've never been in a situation like this. There are times when depression can cloud rational thought and even though you may normally be the type of person that would never harm yourself or commit suicide, you do. It just takes a second or two, a bad snap judgment, and you do something you cannot take back.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Anonymous Coward]

Would you walk around with a broken arm or leg ignoring treatment?
Your comments on the brain are entirely grounded in 19th century thinking. People like you keep mental illness in the dark ages and ensure that it will stay there.
Jack ass.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Anonymous Coward]

What, were you born stupid? Take a look at the posting right above yours. Jerk.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[deuterium]

I've actually found that when I'm depressed, my mind is useless. I can't keep a thought in my head, or even comprehend the environment around me. My senses are fuzzy and I feel like a robot. The world actually appears darker and fuzzier. Far from being creative and intelligent, I become blank and mindless. All motivation and drive are gone. I felt like I was dying. I was barely able to keep up with my job when I was depressed, and projects were pretty simple and slow back then. I'd never be able to tackle the projects I'm doing now if I were depressed.
As far as emotions, though I did experience deeper emotions during the early phases of my depressions, they were all sadness. The sadness perpetuates itself, like a deepening groove on a record, so that nothing else gets played. All connections to prior emotions wither, and they become only an idea. You forget what it was ever like to feel differently, and lose hope that you ever will.
Depression is so insidious, too. You can't point to a day when it occurs. It's like the slow buildup of dust on the TV screen, fading out the vibrancy. When it's finally removed, the world stands out in vivid contrast to the dimness. It always amazes me when that happens.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. People who are depressed are just having trouble "fitting in" and we shouldn't make them. I bet none of them want to be, you know, able to enjoy life. We're not talking about making everyone the same, we're talking about the difference between actively destroying the basic things that are universally considered to be a necessary part of the human experience -- personal pride, interpersonal relationships, etc. -- and building those same things. Depressed people do the former, normal people do the later. If you really think that destroying everything meaningful in your life is not something that you'd like to have fixed then you've obviously never even seen anyone who's actually depressed.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

This really begs the question: Have you ever been depressed?

Most of the time, when people are truely depressed, they don't do much constructive. Perhaps there are some times where depression may lead to something insightful in art and literature. But to say that it may have prevented Lincoln from doing anything about slavery really shows a lack of understanding of what depression is. If you want to know what Lincoln's thoughts on slavery were when he was depressed, it probably would have been something like "who gives a fuck?"

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Anonymous Coward]

Utter bullshit.

For example, Lincoln was prone to depression - if he had been less melancholic, perhaps he wouldn't have spent so much time brooding over the negative consequences of slavery to the union. Similarly, this could spell the end to a lot of literature ...

When those suffering from depression have a bad day, they can't cope at all, with anything. Melancholy is NOT depression. Sadness is NOT depression. Grief is NOT depression. When Lincoln was "suffering a bout of depression" he wasn't thinking about slavery or the Union, he was thinking about his wife and kids and how his life sucked so much and what a failure as a man he was. THAT is depression.

Similarly, the depressed don't write when "suffering a bout". They lay around feeling sorry for themselves.

Saying mental illness leads to art is like saying that Lance Armstrong proves that testicle cancer and castration make you a good athelete.

Most artists and writers are sane. They're (we're) not "normal", but we ARE sane. We're just different than you, like Tiger Woods is different than you and Stephen Hawking is different than you.

-mcgrew

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Anonymous Coward]

I think we can safely say your depression was caused from living in Ohio. You poor soul.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[umedia]

"today announced its intentions to pursue a major clinical trial of the company's deep brain stimulation (DBS) technology in the treatment of severe and intractable depression, a disabling form of the psychiatric disorder affecting millions of people worldwide."

Yesterday across the hall a couple of venture analysts where laughing their arses off over a pitch from a firm that used magnets to treat depression. It was compared to pitch from a firm that used a giant rubber band to treat erectile dysfunction. Today I see this link...

That this is posted as science is indeed depressing

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[wazzzup]

It's not about fitting in or creating a socially acceptable human being through chemistry. It's about relief from the prison of your mind.

As someone that suffers from bouts of major depression and obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), if the treatment leaves me in a state of being "a bit off" but in a state where I can function in day-to-day society - that's okay.

Without treatment, I'm prone to lie in bed all day barely able to speak (the depression) while my mind (figureatively) straps me in front of an IMAX screen and makes me visualize horrible things like blowing my brains out over and over again, throwing my son off a cliff, being gang-raped and other lovely sunny-day thoughts (the O in OCD). Obsessive thoughts are completely unwanted (they don't indicate some subconcious desire) thus feeding the depression which, in turn, makes it harder to block the obsessive thoughts. In my case, I wasn't hurting others (except my family who had to watch me go through those episodes) but I was hurting myself.

While I don't think we should strive for a Stepford Wives kind of norm through medication, the medication is a godsend - not an Orwellian mind-control tactic. While you or someone else may think "so they're odd - leave them alone, it's who they are" it's *not* who they are. Who they are has been dominated and replaced by the condition/disease. I completely understand why someone that has not experienced mental illness might see things in the manner you describe. In fact, most people with mental illness won't tell thier friends or peers about thier condition because of the social stigma that mental illness carries.

With treatment, sure there are days I'm "a bit off" but that's okay - no one's the wiser.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, while "oddballs and eccentrics" might not be hurting anyone, they may, in fact, be hurting intensely within - wishing they could rid themselves of the oddness and eccentricity and become the person they really are. The oddness is just a small part of what surfaces to the outside world. That's not to say that all oddballs and eccentrics are mentally ill either and that's truly just who they are.

In regards to wondering whether these conditions are more prevalent than they were in the past - yes, based upon my personal research on the topic.

I hope my personal experience may have answered some of your questions.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[tomhudson]

What, were you born stupid? Take a look at the posting right above yours. Jerk.

Gee, that's really constructive ...

Your brain is strongly influenced by the chemical and hormonal bath it sits in. Its also influenced by all the sensory input it gets. The GP poster was pointing this out ... you, on the other hand, could probably benefit from a bout of severe depression - maybe it would give you some empathy for other people.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Anonymous Coward]

I read an interesting theory somewhere that depression is just a manifestation of problems with current society

I read an interesting theory somewhere that there's this flying spagetti monster...

The science shows that mentally ill people are mentally ill because of a chemical imbalance in the brain.

There has been depression, schitzophrenia, and all the other mental illnesses for as long as there has been writing. Even the Bible mentions schitzophrenia ("These demons can only be removed by prayer and fasting," Jesus tells his diciples after curing the schitzophrenic man who had delusions of being a swine).

There are similar histories from teh ancient Greeks and Egyptians. Modern life has nothing to do with it.

You think modern life is stressful? Try being hungry all the time, having half your kids die from disease, etc. Modern western life is FAR less crazy than anybody in any earlier time.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[tomhudson]

That sort of thing just didn't happen when I was that age 30 years ago.

Actually, it did, but the world was a smaller place in those days, and it was much less likely to be plastered all over the news, or if it was, it stayed in the local community. People talked about it in hushed tones, if at all, and since court awards were much less than today, there was less incentive for ambulance-chasers to "monetize" the situation.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Anonymous Coward]

I lived for a few decades with someone who was being spied on by the KGB. He kept a loaded 45 clipped under the nightstand and was always watching his back. Not really relevant to the dicussion, but still a neat story.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[deuterium]

Great point. Depression itself behaves like a drug. Much like one cannot perform any refined tasks while stone drunk, it's impossible to think or feel differently when depressed. Your very hardware for thinking is distorted, so the output is screwed up at a level below any type of control. There are some types of things that counseling can address, mainly techniques for evaluating your thoughts. The utility of therapy lies in the input of thoughts (words from your therapist) generated by a brain other than your own. If your own brain can't form productive thoughts, you can benefit from one that does. It doesn't work for everyone, though. If your brain is beyond the ability to incorporate such help, you need something lower level (drugs, ECT).

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[RareButSeriousSideEf]

Adieu to innovative music and poetry too, I imagine. Now, how the hell do they go about structuring the double-blind trials on this?

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[tomhudson]

What they referred to as "melancholy" in Lincoln's day would certainly pass for depression nowadays. That feeling that nothing's worth it, the world is all grey and closing in, getting out of bed is more effort than its worth, that just breathing is a reminder that there's no end in sight, no light at the end of the tunnel, that you've been there before, and that you'll be there again (how depressing ...), that you have to fight fight fight just to pretend to be having a "good" day, wondering where the last 6 months, or the last 10 years, went because they were just swallowed by the gloom ...

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Anonymous Coward]

This could have some rather unexpected negative side-effects.

Everything in the world can have unexpected side-effects. The idea that we shouldn't treat a disorder because it may somehow, somewhere down the line have bad consequences is absurd.

For example, Lincoln was prone to depression - if he had been less melancholic, perhaps he wouldn't have spent so much time brooding over the negative consequences of slavery to the union.

Since we're playing a fantasy game of "what if," let's consider this: he was treated for depression, and was so full of energy he decided he'd rather go jogging than go to the theater. Or, he was so happy with life he abandoned politics altogether and someone who already believed slavery was worth abolishing before he got to the presidency was elected. Or, Hitler was treated, and was so positively motivated that he decided life was good even with Jews in the picture.

Similarly, this could spell the end to a lot of literature ...

This is just my opinion, but real artists will create regardless.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[adolfojp]

That was a brilliant description, and I agree with your post. I believe that it is very likely that Lincoln was suffering of depression.

What I was trying to say is that Lincoln did not necessarily get involved in what he did BECAUSE of depression, like the parent comment implied. I believe that depression can do no good, and that great things do not come out of if, but in spite of it.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Anonymous Coward]

Great observation. Read the posts again. That guy is right, there are some amazingly stupid people posing as intellectuals around here. I'll add this: concentrate on your HTML business, you'll starve more slowly that way.

To the original poster: trying to be a human being around here won't work.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Lord Ender]

Wow. You are suggesting that because there always were rambling homeless people, we shouldn't try to stop that?

Wow.

More, happier people == societal progress

Decreasing the number of suicides == societal progress.

That's not hard to understand.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[npsimons]

For example, Lincoln was prone to depression - if he had been less melancholic, perhaps he wouldn't have spent so much time brooding over the negative consequences of slavery to the union. Similarly, this could spell the end to a lot of literature

Not that I'm Lincoln (or anywhere near), but I've found I'm actually more productive when off of anti-depressants. Why? Two reasons I believe: 1) the antidepressants made me just not care; I never got even vaguely worried about deadlines, therefore I would tend to ignore them. 2) I keep busy to keep my mind off the depression. If anyone's ever been to counseling, they know that keeping busy is one of the best things you can do for depression.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[tomhudson]

No data?

Go down to your local library and see how many famous authors, artists, and performers committed suicide.

there's a strong link between accomplishment and "not normal".

Here's a partial list of famous suicides http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famous_suicid es

• Edwin Armstrong - invented FM radio
• Hans Berger - inventor of the EEG
• Rudolph Diesel - invented the diesel engine
• George Eastman - (I guess that wan't a real kodak moment)

Or check out Buzz Aldrin's story ... http://www.horatioalger.com/members/member_info.cf m?memberid=ald05

And then you have those who self-medicated with alcohol, like write Jack Kerouac, and ended up dying of a stomach haemorhage, or those who turned to drugs, like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and Ernest Hemmingway:

Hemingway attempted suicide in the spring of 1961, and received ECT treatment again; but, some three weeks short of his 62nd birthday, he took his own life on the morning of July 2, 1961, with a shotgun blast to the head. Judged not mentally responsible for his action of suicide, he was buried with a Roman Catholic service. Hemingway himself blamed the ECT treatments for "putting him out of business" by destroying his memory; medical and scholarly opinion has been respectfully attentive to this view.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Anonymous Coward]

Throughout thousands of years of human history, some people have been sad. Now it is a 'disease'. Why has it become a disease all of a sudden? Because you can treat a disease through drugs / therapy / medical treatments. It is natural.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[tomhudson]

Good point about the media. The founder of Quebec's largest newspaper, Pierre Peladeau, was also bipolar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebecor_Inc.

http://www.quebecorworldinc.com/2nd largest printing company in the world is just ONE of the things he did. Also owns Sun Media, a whack of newspapers, tv stations, cable company, etc.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Maximum Prophet]

Sure, there *are* rambling homeless people, depressed people and confused people out there, but hasn't this always been the case? Or is the general consensus that it happens more often now and needs treatment?

There *are* more crazy people on the streets than in previous generations. In the bad old days, the insane were simply warehoused in asylums, or family kept them locked up. Google for "Bedlam" for a description of the worst of these. People really where kept in baskets, hence the term "Basket Case." Then in the 50's, new treatments and drugs actually let some people be cured. The better asylums became like hosiptals, but still there were the incurable cases. Then, in the 70's and 80's, due to state cost cutting, these places were shut down and everyone in them just released. In one case, the patients where simply given a one-way ticket to another state, and a few dollars in spending money.
So, no, it wasn't always the case that there were as many homeless crazy people as there are today.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[lawpoop]

Sure, there are eccentrics and oddballs, and everyone gets sad and down from time to time. However, that's not what we're talking about. People who are severely depressed can't even get out of bed. I think the key is they would rather *not* feel like this -- but if they are severely depressed, soemtimes they feel like they deserve to feel like this, or that there is no hope for anything better, etc.

In the olden days, that person probably would have been bedridden for their short miserable life. Now we can treat them and offer them a shot at having a life similar to other people's -- you know, job, friends, plans on the weekend, instead of hours of uninterrupted crying.

That doesn't strike me as forcing too much conformity on people, anymore than innoculation would prevent people from getting polio or measles.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[owlicks58]

It's not quite as simple as that. You'll even find debate among college textbooks/subjects. If you want a counter point read some modern sociology or even social philosophers like Michel Foucault. The gist is that people are being increasingly catagorized as time goes by. In the last 50 years the theory of what "abnormal" behavior is has become more and more wide spread. I believe hyperactivity and ADD are probably a better example of this than depression. After someone is catagorized as "abnormal" it only compounds their belief that they are an outsider.

This is coming from someone who has long suffered the effects of depression. I'm not saying these mental disorders don't exist, but as society pushes what "normal" is further to the fray, it only compound the alienation felt by these people who are unaccepted in our modern culture.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Anonymous Coward]

You are not going to get much light shone on your ignorance in the comments section of slashdot.

That would explain why my paper on the death of BSD was rejected...

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Snorklefish]

We're not striving for mediocrity... we're striving for perfection.

Mental illness in third world countries is not as serious a problem. Why? To vastly oversimply, life and work in the third world is more flexible and tolerant of mental deficiencies.

Imagine, for example, a first world, mentally-ill person with a menial job at Mcburger King. Sometimes they show up late. Sometimes they skip baths. Sometimes they cry for no apparent reason at all. To what result? Now imagine that same person as a sheep herder in Kazakstahn. The sheep don't care if he's 40 minutes late getting up. They don't care if he stinks. And they don't care if he cries like a child.

Essentially, the mentally ill cannot reasonable function under the requirements of a first-world economy. Because they cannot function in a first-world society, they grow farther and farther from it. In contrast, the impoverished nature of third world economies allows the mentally ill to reasonably participate in society. As participants, there is a real path for increased particpation to the extent their illness subsides.

Here's a more technical analogy. In the early seventies, hard-drive heads flew at heights around 100 nanometers. Today's heads fly at about 10 nanometers. The lesson: First world demands have rendered obsolete machines that were perfectly acceptable 30 years. The first world is doing the same with people. Welcome to the machine.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[zen-theorist]

I dont think you quite get pipingguy's question. His question is not: isnt it easy to ask the depressed to cheer up? His question is: is it necessary to bring the *mildly* depressed back from depression? Why must everyone be absolutely cheerful so as to avoid a depression tag that hangs over their head? Ditto for homeless people.

In any case, TFA addresses severe depression, so his question stands unanswered.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[tomhudson]

This really begs the question: Have you ever been depressed?

Irrelevant to my point, but since you ask, it sort of "comes with the territory" (PTSD).

What finally worked for me was dogs. Not 100% effective, but a lot better than losing a decade (the '80s) to a grey funk.

Its probably made me more left-leaning politically than I would have been otherwise, since the experience gave me insight into just how much we all really are individuals, and how much the external appearance doesn't necessarily mirror what's going on inside.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Anonymous Coward]

I am sick and tired of hearing this particular brand of trash. Depression is an illness flat out. We're not talking about the occasional blues everyone feels once and a while. We're talking about a debilitating disorder that prevents people from living fulfilling lives, or accomplishing the things they'd like to accomplish.

Put it in perspective: you don't hear anyone questioning whether or not we should treat tuberculosis because it'll be the death knell of Romantic poetry or some such. Why should depression or other disorders of the brain be any different? There is nothing noble about being sick! Just because depression is inspiration to some people doesn't mean it's good for everyone. Depression is a very real and very destructive ailment; far more people's lives are ruined by depression than are inspired by the sickness, so I applaud any development that increases treatment options. Sheesh, next we'll be clamoring to stop the search for an AIDS cure because some AIDS sufferers experience profound revelations from their illness.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[tomhudson]

Think for a minute - someone who, like Lincoln, had spent a lot of time thinking about how much life sucked, about having to go bankrupt not once, not twice, but three times, of being a failure, of trying over and over and over and over to succeed, failing, and having it gnaw at him ... you don't think that wouldn't make him more sympathetic to others whose chains were just as restricting as those in his life?

If they were saying "oh, fuck it!" they wouldn't BE depressed. Life wouldn't bother them a bit. It wouldn't be like every day was just one more day where its painful to get out of bed, because what's the point, its ot going to CHANGE anything, its not going to solve any of the problems they're overwhelmed by.

Depression, and the struggle to cope with it, can lead to insights a person would not otherwie have. To say otherwise is to claim that its impossible for someone who suffers from depression is ever capable of learning, or advancing, or making any improvement. Now THAT is a depressing thought.

The ability to look at a major life problem, realize that there's nothing you can do about it, and, rather than stress over it, say, "Fuck it" and go on, is a gift. Not everyone has that gift.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[ajnsue]

Thank you for writing this. My wife has tried many times to try to explain the experience. I don't think anyone who has not suffered it directly, could understand it. There is also the perception that depression is a single experience. From what I have witnesse it is not. There are days that look like dark overwhelming despair. Days of anger and frustration and some days there unexplainable elation and energy. Everyone wants to categorize an experience that is highly personal. I truly hope that this technology is refined so that it can help those whose suffering is deep but not debilitating.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[I Like Pudding]

I thought I had depression once, but it turned out I was just broke.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[AndersOSU]

pfft, not having been diagnosed with ADD I feel like the outsider.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[The_Sock]

Throughout thousands of years of human history, some people have dropped dead from mutations. Now it is a 'disease'. Why has it become a disease all of a sudden? Because you can treat cancer through drugs / therapy / medical treatments. It is natural.

Your attitude downplays the effects of severe depression on a person. Bipolar disorder, OCD, depression, and all mood disorders can be debilitating. Just because you can't see the effects of the disease, it does not mean they don't exist. You can't see a person's deafness, does that make them any less deaf?

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[tomhudson]

Adieu to innovative music and poetry too, I imagine.

On a brighter note, no more songs about "my girl she done gone and left wit' muh dawg and now I'm just a lonesome cowboy".

Now, how the hell do they go about structuring the double-blind trials on this?

... fork in both eyeballs? :-)

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Jeremi]

This could have some rather unexpected negative side-effects. For example, Lincoln was prone to depression - if he had been less melancholic, perhaps he wouldn't have spent so much time brooding over the negative consequences of slavery to the union. Similarly, this could spell the end to a lot of literature ...

The "depression leads to greatness" argument is common, but I think it's incorrect. Exceptional people do great things despite their depression, not because of it. Depression doesn't help you do anything: it inhibits both thought and action. If Lincoln had been cured of his depression, he probably would have been an even better and more effective president than he was.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[BigCheese]

Hit it right on the head. I've suffered chemical depression all my life as has much of my family.
It's strange feeling completely down, depressed, defeated and not being able to put your finger on why.

I would probably choose Deep Brain Stimulation over Effexor XR. The side effects can be pretty unplesant. Especially if you miss a dose.

For those who have never had to deal with severe depression. Antidepressants don't make you happy. They let you feel normal.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[tcdk]

As someone with bipolar disorder, I welcome any further additions to the repertoire of weapons we have against serious depression. I just hope no one in the trials commits suicide, a common occurrance of people who are just beginning to have their depression lifted.

A doctor once told me that a positiv sign that, the treament of a bipolar depression was working, was that the patient had enough energy to sue the doctor... I'm not really sure if he as joking...

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[tomhudson]

CBT - not "Computer-Based Training", but "Cognitive Behavioral therapy". Part of which is that changing your behaviour WILL change how you see things. For example, find one small thing you CAN do that might or might not change things. Then DO IT instead of just over-thinking it. Reward yourself for a small victory if it changes things, and for having eliminated one possibility if it didn't change things. Rinse, lather, repeat.

Many of the great writers produced their best works when they were fighting the wolf at the door.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[tomhudson]

Thanks for liking my description :-)

Here's something nobody's asked yet

1. if you or someone you knew was thinking about going through this treatment, what would you recommend?
2. And, more importantly, would your recommendation be different if it was you, as compared to if you were counselling someone else?

Something to think about?

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[tomhudson]

A few points:

1. Nobody ever said depression wasn't an illness.
2. Nobody ever said that this treatment option should be ignored.

But to quote your own words back at you:

depression is inspiration to some people

Its like the instructions on being a write: "Its easy - sit before your keyboard and slice open a vein."

Some people will opt for this treatment, others will weigh it against the risks, which include the possibility of their personality changing enough that "the well runs dry", and decide against it. This is their right, just like any other treatment. The choice is individual, and has to take this into account.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[tomhudson]

...or maybe trying to overcome their personal devils goads them on to greater lengths ... we'll never know which is true in Lincoln's case.

I can see it going either way, depending on the individual. For some, this could be a god-send; for others ... we just don't know.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[raddan]

You seem to have failed to notice that the list of disorders in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders changes, somewhat dramatically, over time. One could give the explanation that better science yields a better diagnosis, but that fails to account for things like homosexuality, which, according to Wikipedia, was considered a mental illness in DSM-II. So clearly, what constitutes a "mental disorder" also takes into account that which is socially acceptable, whether the psychology establishment realizes it or not.

The idea of "normality" is simply a logical extension of this. Those with "bipolar disorder" are often prescribed medication that "evens out" the intensity of their mood swings. For some people, this is desirable, others-- and I've heard this complaint before from people taking these medications-- consider their heights and their lows an integral part of their personality. People who have had the term "genius" attributed to them often exhibit "mental illness", because they are not "normal". I think we need to be very careful about medicating the next Einstein, or Bach. I'm of the opinion that "normality" is a myth, and a dangerous one. As a society, do we even want everyone to be "normal"?

I'm with pipingguy. If these people aren't hurting anyone, and they don't want "treatment", why medicate them? So you can feel better about having them around?

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[TubeSteak]

And this is only because there has to be some sort of measurement for "normal" so we can tell, when the treatment is going to the right direction (unfortunately, some times patient his/herself cannot be a reliable source for this kind of information).

A bit of advice if someone in your family is depressed: Make sure someone goes with them to the Doctor & goes into the room with them.

Depressed people may not lie outright, but some of them won't be terribly forthcoming. Someone else needs to be there to tell the Doc how it is, otherwise the patient might not make much progress.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, static field magnets are very limited in the interactions they can cause beyond the surface of the body since so few structures in the body are ferromagnetic. In contrast, it's been pretty well observed that electrical currents have direct effects on muscular and neuronal structures, so claims about DBS shouldn't be quickly dismissed as cargo cult science. But if you want to volunteer to prove that electric chairs don't actually work, or pass on being subject to defibrillation should you ever have a heart attack, then go ahead. There's enough trolls in the world to go around.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Xtravar]

That's what most people who are ignorant to the disease say. Depression isn't so much about happy and sad as it is with apathy and motivation. It is normal to be sad when something bad happens, it is normal to be happy when something good happens. It is not normal to feel hopeless, apathetic, or merely subpar for long, long stretches of time with very little reason to.

Depression drugs are most effective when coupled with therapy. This is because, while the drug may help around the edges with motivation and such, there is no drug that can turn your life around or change your perspective. Many people with ongoing depression suffer from it because of life experiences that have somehow given them a negative existential view on life.

These 'oddball' people you speak of only have a problem if they feel they have a problem. If they're happy being oddballs, that's great, they don't have depression.

And for the most part, someone who is creative or quirky with depression will be just as creative and quirky without depression. This is a common misconception - that drugs brainwash you or make you into a zombie. It is more like shedding a mental cocoon. Instead of focusing motivation and creativity on self-loathing or negativity, these people can focus it on the real things that matter to them (which is why they take the drugs or seek therapy in the first place).

You're silly and ill-informed, and so are the people that modded you up.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Anonymous Coward]

Suppose your society was upholding a set of values that you felt was wrong. Suppose that, by upholding these values, you further promoted a system which immiserated others for its own sake. Suppose that you felt that is was very wrong for people to be living as if the only thing that mattered was war. Suppose many other people felt the same way.

Suppose that you found out that many people felt the same way, but you all realized that you could never talk about it, because showing everyone else what they have been doing would render you an exile from society?

If I were part of a malovent society, I would say INCREASING the number of suicides is MOST wise for ensuring that aforementioned malovent society no longer exists.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Masa]

A bit of advice if someone in your family is depressed: Make sure someone goes with them to the Doctor & goes into the room with them.

Depressed people may not lie outright, but some of them won't be terribly forthcoming. Someone else needs to be there to tell the Doc how it is, otherwise the patient might not make much progress.

This is true and a very good advice. My wife has a chronic depression and doctor has asked me to visit frequently at the meetings so I can be questioned about recent uphills and downhills. Also there usually are quite a lot of detailed questions about her behaviour, which simply are easier to be answered by me rather than her, because some subtle changes usually are easier to spot by someone close to the patient rather than by the patient herself.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Anonymous Coward]

It just takes a second or two

From: The Long Dark Teatime of the Soul
by Douglas Adams

"Thor! Thor! Is it you?"

          This last was a thin voice trailing over the wind. Kate
peered into the wind. Through the darkness a lantern was
bobbing towards them from behind a low rise.

          "Is that you, Thor?" A little old lady came into view,
holding a lantern above her head, hobbling enthusiastically. "I
thought that must be your hammer I saw. Welcome!" she
chirruped. "Oh, but you come in dismal times. I was just
putting the pot on and thinking of having a cup of something
and then perhaps killing myself, but then I said to myself,
just wait a couple of days longer, Tsuliwa..., Tsuwila...,
Swuli..., Tsuliwaknsis - I can never pronounce my own name
properly when I'm talking to myself, and it drives me hopping
mad, as I'm sure you can imagine, such a bright boy as I've
always maintained, never mind what those others say, so I said
to myself, Tsuliwaknsis, see if anyone comes along, and if they
don't, well, then might be a good time to think about killing
myself. And look! Now here you are! Oh, but you are welcome,
welcome! And I see you've brought a little friend. Are you
going to introduce me? Hello, my dear, hello! My name's
Tsuliwaknsis and I won't be at all offended if you stutter."

          "I... I'm, er, Kate," said Kate, totally flummoxed.

          "Yes, well I'm sure that will be all right," said the old
woman sharply. "Anyway, come along if you're coming. If you're
going to hang around out here all night I may as well just get
straight on with killing myself now and let you get your own
tea when you're quite ready. Come along!"
[...]
Inside was tiny. A few boards with straw for a bed, a
simmering pot hung over a fire, and a box tucked away in the
corner for sitting on.

          "And this is the knife I was thinking of using, you see,"
said Tsuliwaknsis, fussing around. "Just been sharpening it up
nicely, you see. It comes up very nice if you get a nice
sweeping action with the stone, and I was thinking here would
be a good place, you see? Here on the wall, I can stick the
handle in this crack so it's held nice and firm, and then just
go fling ! And fling myself at it. Fling ! You see?
I wonder, should it be a little lower, what do you think, my
dear? Know about these things, do you?"

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Anonymous Coward]

Obsessive thoughts are completely unwanted (they don't indicate some subconcious desire) thus feeding the depression which, in turn, makes it harder to block the obsessive thoughts. In my case, I wasn't hurting others (except my family who had to watch me go through those episodes) but I was hurting myself.

I went through about a year of that (recurrent, intrusive thoughts of the deaths of myself and everyone I knew, along with thoughts like mutilating the dog with a carving knife - and far worse). It crept in, fully-formed, one evening in late 2002 before slowly drifting off in late 2003. This too was accompanied by intense, debilitating depression.

I was on antidepressants for the first half of the year (100mg a day of Lustral at one point - which might have made me feel less shite, but it was still awful) - I was at my doctor every week, and despite the allegedly rubbish GP service from the NHS, I usually had 15 minutes or so of talking through how I was feeling that week, which was really helpful. I can't say the same about the local mental health section of the NHS, which eventually got round to organising an appointment with a psychiatrist in September or so - who ignored everything I said, promptly diagnosed me with a social anxiety disorder and booked me in for playing snooker with schizophrenics. Seriously.

Nobody mentioned OCD. Except the symptoms described in your post were almost a perfect list of what I went through that year.

I'd had bouts of something similar before (including a nearly destroyed university degree and random terms of doing badly at school), and while I've been clear for almost two and a half years (which have perhaps been the best years of my life) and now know better how to avoid it, I finally have a name for the fucker.

Thanks.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[C Joe V]

I'm with pipingguy. If these people aren't hurting anyone, and they don't want "treatment", why medicate them? So you can feel better about having them around?

Fine. But there are lots of people with depression who do want treatment. People who feel their lives being taken away by the things going on in their brain and will gladly undergo therapy and endure side effects if it means being able to participate in life. Treatments should be available for these people.

CJV

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Lord Ender]

Hm. A truely malevolent society wouldn't be ambitious enough to earn the money needed to fund a war.

But, have you ever asked someone on antidepressants if he cares about civil rights violations?

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Sneaky G]

Parent, although obviously intended to be funny, is spot on. At my university (and, granted, it's a small, private, liberal arts school that tends to attract off-center kids), more than half of my acquaintances claim to have ADD. Everyone has different ways of coping with it--some study in groups, some allow themselves to be distracted and beg huge extensions from over-lenient professors, and some take vast quantities of Adderall/Ritalin (their own or 'borrowed.') Having such a large percentage of the population claim to be affected by ADD makes one wonder where the line is between being distractable/absent-minded and truly being affected by an illness (or, if that's not the right word, a diagnosable issue.)

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Anonymous Coward]

Just to set the record straight or reiterate what others have said "This isn't a bit off situation" and has nothing to do with the "in" crowd taking Prozac to make their life better.

If you have severe depression or suffer from cyclic depression or are susceptible to serious depression, then that is what the medication and treatment is for. I have suffered from it for most of my life, until I started taking medication. Part of the difficulty in diagnosing the problem was my unwillingness to accept I had a problem. I couldn't see the pattern. I am borderline manic-depressive. When I'm manic I do great, more than great. In fact I got through school basically because during manic states I could go through a lot of material very quickly and comprehend it. But, in a depressive state I could struggle with telling you what 1+1 is equal to and on top of that I didn't care. In this state anything that would trigger normal depression in another person would send me into a state much worse. A depressive response which was unreasonable for the situation.

Now that I am medicated I no longer have the manic phases I used to, which is difficult to give up. But I no longer have those deep depressions which I couldn't live with. Actually it was nice to be able to have the type of memory where someone could ask me about a topic and I could refer them to the page it was on in the book. But after four serious depressions, one where I lost my job, one where I lost a wife, I finally got help. Since that time I've been living a more steadied paced life. This is the type of depression they are talking about.

Yes I do think it is more common today than what it was before. One reason is that they are better able to diagnose the problem (Unfortunately, they more often diagnose a problem as depression when maybe it isn't. Look how everyone is suffering from ADT now ). Two, the world has changed. There are more types of stress on people and we still have the flight or fight reactions, which cause more problems. Alvin Toffler described some of this in his book "Future Shock" (Sorry, I can't remember the page number :-) ) We used to run and have other physically labor which would help clear up the stress issues, now we sit in our offices and pucker our assholes.

Enough of this. Basically this is not a "bit off" problem. For some people this is as serious as a heart attack. Literally.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[Nefarious Wheel]

Pff. My Mage isn't Time-geared. In my crowd that makes me a real outsider. I'm only mildly depressed about that. But it's ok, with a bit of KEI my manic phase will soon kick in.

One concern I have with treatment of people without their -- call it permission, for want of a better word -- is that sometimes people have to hit the bottom before they can bounce back up. Deconstruction-Reconstruction. There is sometimes a single full-cycle of that that has to be worked through before depressed people can be really brought back to reality. Makes a case for a Wanderjahr, beatnik or hippy sort of excursion away from the context that supports the negative behaviour.

Just don't let them near the guns, in case they see the bad spirits floating around in your eyes...

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[sjames]

It's not about fitting in or creating a socially acceptable human being through chemistry. It's about relief from the prison of your mind.

A lot of people now have fears or mis-perceptions regarding the (mis)treatment of mental illness. Much of this probably comes from the over-medication of school children supposedly for ADHD. Some probably do need the medication, many others probably just need a decent school and appropriate placement.

There are good ways to draw a distinction. A person with major depression is by definition NOT situationally depressed. Give them a billion dollars, nothing but love and caring, and all the leisure time they want and they will STILL tend to lie in bed depressed. Treatment (hopefully) makes that better.

Mis-medicated students will be perfectly fine in a better (for them) classroom with no medication, properly medicated ones will not be OK without medication no matter what classroom they are in.

The danger of mental health practice is when we 'treat' situational problems rather than properly fixing the situation. Once that happens, the second danger is that it creates a presumption and backlash against even proper treatment of non-situational mental problems.

For example, a slave's desire to run away from slavery was once proclaimed a mental illness (whose name escapes me). Further, the prescribed 'treatment' was a severe lashing.

Perhaps today a student's inability to do endless busy work for no particular reward is 'diagnosed' as ADHD and the treatment is a meth like stimulant. Once on it, according to school officials, they can now 'concentrate on their work'. According to meth heads everywhere and anyone who has known one, they are now 'knick knacking'.

Either way, if enough students are improperly treated for ADHD, eventually a backlash will build to the point that the few who really ARE suffering from ADHD will not be treated.

A final complication is determining the border between simple personality traits and mental illness. Somewhere there is a line between people who are 'over exuberant' and those with mania. DSM invariably includes phrasing such as 'causes significant imparement in ...' in the various dignosis, the question is what constitutes 'significant' and is that imparement entirely due to the person and their illness or is it only an imparement because our society is a mess.

Re:Unexpected side-effects

[sjames]

Depressed people may not lie outright, but some of them won't be terribly forthcoming. Someone else needs to be there to tell the Doc how it is, otherwise the patient might not make much progress.

It's not necessarily a matter of truthfulness or even willingness, it's just that depression distorts a person's view of events and particularly of interpersonal interactions. They will HONESTLY BELIEVE every distortion. Patent recalls a recent business presentation where everyone was bored (sitting in stony silence) and some were even yawning through it. A complete failure. A non-depressed person recalling the same presentation would remember that the audience was listening intently (none of the usual figiting) and even the guy that came in yawning seemed interested by the end. Both saw the same thing, but their interpretations (and so their reports) are entirely different.

Slashdot Account

[JonathanR]

Isn't this just a subsidised Slashdot account?

It would work for me

[Mrs. Grundy]

Well...if my brain is where my wife says it is, I can see this working quite well.

Re:It would work for me

[Anonymous Coward]

Up your ass?

Re:It would work for me

[Excen]

But do you want people shocking the hell out of your wang?

Too late..

[MrPsycho]

I though Paramount already has the rights to the Mind Meld technique.

Re:Too late..

[sgt_doom]

Something tells me this technique would never work on that guy in the White House, George Bush. I wonder if they have a cure for illiteracy....

Science?

[e5z8652]

I think spamassassin has been deleting all the e-mails I get about investing in this company - good thing /. let me see the "related quotes" graph!

Re:Science?

[Vexar]

Medtronic is a fine company with good, solid engineers. I think they have some of the brightest physiologists behind these inventions, and we should all count our blessings that they do. Consider the precision involved in this sort of device, and compare it to the "numb the effects" approach with Lithium salts (which belong in batteries, IMHO) and the dizzying array of mind-drugs. How many depressed or OCD people out there have said to themselves: "My brain is wired funny?" Sure, some blessed or highly motivated people manage to adapt, change, or merely conquer. Others take illegal narcotics, cut themselves, drink alcohol like it was water, and worse. Compare one surgery every 10-15 years to all that talk time with quacks, pills with unknown/debated side-effects, and senseless craft projects involving pipe cleaners and foam. Incidentally, Medtronic devices now have a polymer involved in drawing heat/ flexing to power/recharge their devices. It isn't the batteries, it is the stims and leads that need adjustment/replacement. If any of their battery tech guys ever decided to go big, they'd make a laughing stock out of those folks making the 100-mile range electric cars. The medical devices are implanted below the skin/fat layers (and not in the rib cage as I had originally thought), and the main problem is people fidget with them, like picking a scab. They are about the size of a drink coaster (bit smaller), and thickness of a pencil. well, the pacemakers are, anyway. The neuro products are about the size of 3 packs of (Wrigley) gum. Part of me wonders how someone with OCD could not panic about the device buried in their flesh, controlling their brain. I'd hope the effects were fairly immediate.

The war on drugs...and solenoids.

[OGmofo]

It will be fascinating to see what lengths society is willing to go to prohibit individuals from indulging in effortless reward. I can't wait to see copper wire on schedule I.

I also can't help but wonder if the war on drugs hasn't essentially shot society in the foot. By restraining self-destructive phenotypes, we have accumulated more in the population than we might have were the most dedicated allowed to pursue their end. Now along comes an unstoppable, uncontrollable form of cheap unlimited bliss and how many more are going to fall?

Re:The war on drugs...and solenoids.

[Nefarious Wheel]

Larry Niven and Spider Robinson both explored the social aspects of this subject pretty thoroughly in SF literature. Ringworld Engineers comes to mind, when Louis Wu undergoes a euphoria/depression addiction cycle to a "TASP" (presumably an acronym for There Ain't Such Pleasure, a variation on TANJ used as an expletive throught his books) and a "DROUD" (no idea as to word origin).

Spider Robinson may have derived his stories from Niven's originals -- legitimately, I believe, as the "wirehead" meme now seems to be as much a part of SF as FTL has been since the Golden Age. Spider wrote it into "Lifeship" and one other short story involving deprogramming of a wirehead. (/soapbox)

Re:The war on drugs...and solenoids.

[RM6f9]

A fellow Robinson fan! Wireheading's dangers are really well known, and I hope they find a more certainly effective treatment for essential tremors sometime in the next two decades: that's my personal limit...

Re:The war on drugs...and solenoids.

[Xaositecte]

Mmm, I remember them well - I believe you're thinking of Mindkiller as the other Spider Robinson book dealing with Wireheads..

He may have done even more than that - all in all excellent reads.

Re:The war on drugs...and solenoids.

[pembo13]

I have wondered similiarly myself. But this basic thinking can be applied to much more than the war on drugs. The new "civilized" society has put away many of things (activities, customs, etc.) that may very well have catalysed the progress of society.

Nothing new here

[abscissa]

Before modding me down, look into it for yourself... it has been known for a very long time that in the most severe cases of clinical depression, shock therapy is an extremely effective treatement, although it tends to conjure inhumane images in one's head.

Re:Nothing new here

[Bowling Moses]

Electoconvulsive therapy's been used for a long time for treating a variety of mental problems, including depression. This shouldn't have some of the negatives--a friend of mine had ECT done about 15 years back as a last-ditch treatment for severe depression and as a result has a six-month gap in her memory. Plus, the aim of ECT (according to almighty wikipedia) is to induce a grand mal seizure for about a minute. This is definitely not what deep brain stimulation's doing!

Re:Nothing new here

[Naomi_the_butterfly]

DBT != ECT

Re:Nothing new here

[Heir Of The Mess]

Maybe you should point out the differences as the article doesn't really state how they do deep brain stimulation. They do use electricity in the stimulation, and therefore I think it would be valid to call it a refinement of electro-shock therapy (which has the effect of dimming a person's intelligence a bit).

DBS uses a surgically inserted probe that rests deep in the brain, and stimulates the deep brain section by use of electriciy. It isn't a large shock type action though, but rather the person carries a battery pack and only a small charge is released through the probe, but on a continuous basis.

Re:Nothing new here

[kitkatsavvy]

wanna bet!!! how do you know that its a damn efficient method! how can zapping volts upon volts of electricity to your head be effective! they dont even know what areas to zap - it is used as a last resort - there isnt any proof that it makes anything better! why dont you go and get some ECT treatment and see if it works IDIOT!

Re:Nothing new here

[RockModeNick]

My girlfriend has a DBS (For dystonia, not depression) It does not provide complete immediate relief for her condition the way it does for most parkinson's patients, so effectiveness may be variable for depressed patients as well. I don't really think of it as being simular to electronconvulsive, since there are no convusions or seizures involved, and those are pretty much what defines that treatment - It's much, much closer to being a sci-fi neural interface, only it's one directional - it mimics nerve activity, that it does so using electricty doesn't make it very much like electroconvulsive. It's not actually continuous, it attempts to mimic nerve impulses, and the frequency and many other aspects of the impulses it sends can be tuned with a remote control outside the patient's body.

Re:Nothing new here

[Hatta]

Before modding me down, look into it for yourself... it has been known for a very long time that in the most severe cases of clinical depression, shock therapy is an extremely effective treatement, although it tends to conjure inhumane images in one's head.

What's more interesting is that transcranial magnetic stimulation also holds promise as a treatment for depression. TMS works by induction so it's non invasive. However the resolution of these implanted electrodes would be much better.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

I've known two people who were subjected to electroshock. It didn't do a damned thing for either of them, except make them incredibly stupid for six months or so.

Do you know anyone who this has actually helped? Don't believe everything you read. This "therapy" (electroshock, not deep brain stimulation) should be outlawed, it's dangerous and completely ineffective.

Finally!

[grasshoppa]

I can get my very own droud.

I'm so excited.

Re:Finally!

[MichaelSmith]

I can get my very own droud.

Check it with a (micro) amp meter first or you might wind up like Owen Jennison.

Re:Finally!

[wsxyz]

At least he died happy.

Obligatory Dilbert Quote

[Unlikely_Hero]

Well, the fact that the government is trying to restrict a technology to make people feel euphoric reminds me of a great dilbert quote from a general sent to destroy dilbert's happiness formula.

"You're just allowed to /pursue/ happiness, you're not actually allowed to /be/ happy"

Re:Obligatory Dilbert Quote

[cp.tar]

I'm more afraid that the governments of the world will learn to like the technology... if everyone can be happy just via stimulation of certain parts of brain, no-one will ever oppose the government...

Tinfoil helmet off, happy helmet on...

Re:Obligatory Dilbert Quote

[mattkinabrewmindspri]

But if everyone is happy, does it really matter?

Re:Obligatory Dilbert Quote

[servognome]

I'm more afraid that the governments of the world will learn to like the technology... if everyone can be happy just via stimulation of certain parts of brain, no-one will ever oppose the government...

No the government will ban this technology as "many women and young girls, as well as young men of respectable family, were being induced to visit the Chinese [Deep Brain Stimulation] dens, where they were ruined morally and otherwise"

Re:Obligatory Dilbert Quote

[cp.tar]

That doesn't sound like government.

That sounds like the Church.

Re:Obligatory Dilbert Quote

[antifoidulus]

And being ruined morally by lots of Chinese women is bad how?

Re:Obligatory Dilbert Quote

[rtz]

In the current political climate in the US, what's the difference?

Re:Obligatory Dilbert Quote

[Anonymous Coward]

Who cares? :-) :-)

Re:Obligatory Dilbert Quote

[pryonic]

I've thought a lot about this idea of happiness and whether it's truly obtainable these days. I've come to the conclusion unhappiness is good for the economy. With the majority of the population feeling low, or being convinced they are feeling low, they will go out and buy material products to make them feel better. I'm sure the government, the media and corporations are all in it together to made us feel unhappy and/or scared to make us consume more. Here in the UK companies actually advertise the fact their products will cheer you up:

Life Tastes Better at Sainsburys - Supermarket
100 Years of Happiness - Cadbury's Chocolate

They don't even try to be subtle about it! Just a theory, reading back over my comment I sound like a conspiracy nut, but I still think I'm right...

Re:Obligatory Dilbert Quote

[geminidomino]

The Church admits it.

Re:Obligatory Dilbert Quote

[soft_guy]

Apparently it can sometimes be expensive.

Re:Obligatory Dilbert Quote

[servognome]

It was the excuse given for the passing of the first drug laws restricting Opium in San Francisco

Re:Obligatory Dilbert Quote

[Anonymous Coward]

Good point. I wish this comment had catalyzed more discussion. =)

OCD is the worst

[Cybert8]

As one who has been depressed, the OCD is the one that just doesn't go away. Anything they might have for OCD makes me want to volunteer. Well, plus I want to be a cyborg.

Re:OCD is the worst

[bersl2]

With these something-else-plus-depression cases, the depression is always just icing on the cake.

Re:OCD is the worst

[da.phreak]

Deep Brain stimulation can also be used to treat OCD. It's still being researched, but there are first tests on human patients. It seems to work quite good. It can also be used to treat Parkinson in late stages.

Re:OCD is the worst

[Diamondback]

This obviously isn't a medical advice forum, but I'm a nail-biter and generally anxious/obsessive and I have resolved a good 50% or more of my problems with the nutritional supplement inositol. About 1.3g a day of it.

I think it has some sort of effect similar to tricyclic antidepressants, without the 'oh my god I can't stand up without fainting and I'm getting fat' problems.

Re:OCD is the worst

[linvir]

There's already a miracle cure for OCD. You just tap your forehead with your right index finger. The impact rejiggers your frontal sensor array.

So just tap your forehead. It might not work first time, so you'll want to keep doing at regular intervals. It helps if you think about your breathing while you do it.

Great, now what is it?

[Nirvelli]

What actually is "Deep Brain Stimulation"?

Re:Great, now what is it?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's like an electro-shock implant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_brain_stimulatio n

Re:Great, now what is it?

[da.phreak]

Electo-shock is an exaggeration I think. Electric stimulation maybe is more adequate. Basically a hole is drilled into your had and an electrode is inserted. Using MRI it is navigated to an exact location in your head (chosen depending on your mental disorder). The electrode is connected to an electrical "pacemaker" that sends specific electric pulses into your brain.

There are a few loose ends....

[70Bang]

1. Reading the story and the paper doesn't tell you what Deep Brain Stimulation actually is. What'd you think? Phoebe Buffet was going to climb on and reach deep into your skull and start the massage?

Fortunately, someone put good wiki material for those of you who didn't already know what it is. To save you the reading, it's a "pacemaker" in your brain.

2. Shock treatment (as in for the loonies) has been making a comeback for the previous decade or so as an attempt to rebalance those who are severely depressed or those who are Bipolor (or Manic-Depressive) but spend more time on the down side than the up side.

3. Regardless of the treatment, many seriously believe "fixing" this, particularly the down or depressed side will decrease or neutralize the creative side of those who are exceptionally creative. I know many friends who are careful about the medications they take and insist upon some trial & error not just on the effectiveness axis, but the suppression of creativity. If the latter is lost or decreased, they'd rather do without medication (with or without their physican's knowledge).

4. If this sounds familiar to you or you think it's a good idea for a book, think of it as a first cousin to one of Ray Bradbury's (existing) books.

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[Cicero382]

Right! The glib tone of this post annoys me; I can't let it go by without comment.

Before I start, both I and my wife suffer from chronic depression (and I'm bipolar). We both lead perfectly normal and happy lives - thanks to medication. So I know what I'm talking about.

> 2. Shock treatment (as in for the loonies)

Oh, thank you very much! I haven't had this, but my wife was so desparate that she did. I can't say whether it cured her (I suspect the medication has much more to do with it), but I *can* say that it is a brutal approach. I refused because I was afraid that it would damage my mind (which is a very good one - polymath). It tore her mind to bits! For months after the sessions she was confused, had massive memory loss (and those memories are gone for good) and suffered - possibly more than the depression itself. I think that one could compare it to resetting a computer by throwing a bucket of water over it. Quite possibly, its only effect is to press RESET on the brain and let it rebuild from there.

> but spend more time on the down side

Actually, the "up" side is even worse. You can do serious damage to yourself and those around you, mentally, spiritually, financially and even physically. At least when you're "down" you tend to stay put. Not that it's much fun.

> 3. Regardless of the treatment, many seriously believe "fixing" this, particularly the down or
> depressed side will decrease or neutralize the creative side of those who are exceptionally
> creative.

There is something in this, but it misses the point. People who want to mitigate the effects of the medication for any reason don't have *severe* depression. If you do, you will do ANYTHING to make it stop... and I mean *ANYTHING*. Why do you think sufferers kill themselves? In a way, I'm lucky because my disease started at an early age and built to a crescendo by the time I was 30. If I (or, I suspect, anyone) suffered the full effects in one go I would have looked for the very first way to kill myself - immediately.

I do suffer some performance hit from the medication, but it's worth it. I once tried to get a boost for an important problem by stopping my medication. Never again!

If you're a sufferer, don't worry about this. It really is fairly minimal and, as I said, very well worth it. Look at it this way; if you don't have to spend most of your mental energy fighting it, you're more productive anyway and much happier as well. In the course of my treatment, they concentrated on mitigating the symptoms, then hunting round for the correct drug and dosage for everyday life. It works very well.

Finally, don't be ashamed. I know that there's a lot of stigma attached to depression and OCD but were you ashamed when you had a cold? Of course not! And it's the same thing - a disease. And it can be treated. If you have it, get help NOW! There is no need to suffer. It will take time and patience, but it can work.

And, finally, finally: Remember you're not alone. Many others know how you feel (me, for example) and love and understanding can go a *long* way (soppy, but true). Where do you think my wife and I met? Yup - the loony bin (*I* am allowed to say it :) 15 years now (happy sigh).

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[Czar the Bizarre]

Just have to let everyone know, I also met my partner in the 'Psych Ward' of a local hospital.

It certainly helps when you have someone around who understands why you feel the way you do at times. Although, the reverse is also true if you both forget to take your meds at the same time.... hehe, nasty.

Anyways, she has just given birth to our first child together (its a girl).

Hopefully, she wont suffer the same problems as her parents, but if she does... well hopefully we have the understanding to help her overcome some of the issues, or at least support her during the harder times.

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[Masa]

It tore her mind to bits! For months after the sessions she was confused, had massive memory loss (and those memories are gone for good) and suffered - possibly more than the depression itself. I think that one could compare it to resetting a computer by throwing a bucket of water over it. Quite possibly, its only effect is to press RESET on the brain and let it rebuild from there.

It's sad to hear that. For past two years, my wife has been given ECT several times, but there hasn't been any noticable side-effects. Some minor memory loss, but only temporarily (for few hours). She will receive the next treatment next week and she is looking forward to it. She said that it has been the only thing that has helped her with her chronic depression.

It seems that the reactions for the ECT are extremely unique and depend on the patient and menthods how to do the treatment. I have heard that for some patients the electric shock has been quite long and with quite high voltages, but at my wife's case, the shock is very mild and lasts only so far when the brain gives the certain feedback (to tell the truth, I don't know much about these technical details but I'm going to find out).

Yes, I admit that the ECT has its risks and it's not very scientific, but my wife received her therapy at a hospital which does active studing with this subject and after my inital sucpicion, I was surprised, how carefull the preparations were and how much was done to minimize the risks.

Anyway, I just thought that I would share my second-hand experiences on this subject because people tend to underline only the negative side of this matter.

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[HellYeahAutomaton]

I do suffer some performance hit from the medication, but it's worth it. I once tried to get a boost for an important problem by stopping my medication. Never again!

The pharm companies thank you for your dependency.

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[blakestah]

1. Reading the story and the paper doesn't tell you what Deep Brain Stimulation actually is. What'd you think? Phoebe Buffet was going to climb on and reach deep into your skull and start the massage?

In this case, a probe was lowered into the anterior cingulate region of the cerebral cortex (close to the midline, in front of the ears, pretty close to the middle of the cranium). The probe has 2 contacts. They alternately stimulate with electrical pulses at 125 Hz. This rate of stimulation keeps a damper on activity in the region in which it is placed. For example, it is used to calm activity in Parkinson's patients. It is NOT a pacemaker, it is a shut-off switch. The anterior cingulate is hyperactive in some depressed patients.

2. Shock treatment (as in for the loonies) has been making a comeback for the previous decade or so as an attempt to rebalance those who are severely depressed or those who are Bipolor (or Manic-Depressive) but spend more time on the down side than the up side.

Patients who will not respond to pharmacological treatment can pose huge risks to themselves or others (suicide, mainly). ECT helps some of those. Many think DBS will be a LOT better. Including me.

3. Regardless of the treatment, many seriously believe "fixing" this, particularly the down or depressed side will decrease or neutralize the creative side of those who are exceptionally creative.

The people in the study were willing to let neurosurgeons do experimental brain surgery in which a 2-3 mm wide probe is lowered 10-12 cm into the brain, with a possible side effect of death. Of course, these procedures are now reasonably common in Parkinson's treatment, so the risks are low, but still - experimental brain surgery!!! The patients want to live without the fog of depression daunting their every motivation.

Obviously, if you are not so negatively affected you want someone to do brain surgery to try to fix it, you have a choice. You can always refuse treatment.

Also, one other thing about DBS, is that you can turn the stimulator off, and your brain is largely intact as it was when the probe was first placed. ie: it is reversible. In these studies, they alternately turned the probes off and on, and people went from full-on depression to reasonably normal in minutes.

There are HUGE numbers of patients with general depression, bipolar, or schizophrenia, and a large number of them do not respond well to conventional pharmacological treatment. We're talking roughly 13-14% of all people over 40 have been diagnosed by a psychiatrist with one of these psychoaffective disorders. Now, DBS offers SOME hope (small hope at this time) to some of the depressed patients who are severely affected and are not rendered reasonably functional with antidepressants of any kind. Given the safety and efficacy record of DBS in treating Parkinson's syndrome, it seems a very good course to investigate.

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a description of ECT from a psychiatrist friend of mine, who actually has performed it.

"Do you have any idea what ECT is? You basically hook up a battery to someone's brain, and turn up the juice slowly until they show seizure activity. Then you turn the juice off, wait, and repeat. There's not really any rhyme or reason to it, you feel like you are just burning holes in their brain."

Of course, it is a huge leap forward from lobotomies...

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[Masa]

wait, and repeat

This is something I know for a fact. You do not repeat the treatment. There has to be at least two days between shocks.

But anyway. I tend to agree. It's not "brain surgery". More like hit-and-hope-for-the-best kind of treatment. But it works when all else has already failed. So there is no any obvious alternatives available.

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[alexo]

This is very interesting.

However, as most of my knowledge about mental disorders comes from non-authoritative sources there are things that I don't understand.

Modern medicine is still better at treating symptoms than root causes (I have enough honest MDs in my family to say that).
So, if a person is feeling "down" a lot of the time and they suspect they have a problem, how would they know if the cause of the problem is chemical?

Are there tests that can differentiate between chemical "imbalances" and psychological causes ("unhappy childhood", etc.) or is it just the MD's inclination to prescribe drugs because they "tend to work"?

I tend to suspect the later, based on our experience with MDs that insisted on cortisones to treat eczema that we found out was caused by food sensitivities (and disappeared after a diet change).

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[Anonymous Coward]

Kid, sounds like you've got no idea what it means to be manic depressive. It's a ride, that's forsure. Go on it a few time, and you'll be thankfull the pharm companies exist.

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[Anonymous Coward]

A company called Cyberonics makes a similar device that stimulates the Vagus nerve instead of the brain and has been approved by the FDA for treating depression, It was originally designed to treat epilepsy but discovered to be extremely effective in treating severe depression.

Although approved by the FDA, they have had a hard time marketing it for three reasons. One, they are a small company. Two, the psychiatrists who act as gatekeepers to receiving the treatment would lose the most were the patient cured and three, the entrenched drug companies work hard to insure they have lifetime consumers of their pills, most of which have only marginal success at best.

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[pz]

IIANSDBS (I Am A Neuroscientist Studying Deep Brain Stimulation), and I attended one of the recent workshops that Medtronic had on this very subject where they brought together all of the physicians working on their pre-clinical trial of these devices. It was incredibly cool. Despite my having worked in the field for 6 years now, deep brain stimulation continues to astound me. The meeting covered exactly what you would think it would cover (and no, I'm not going to reveal any trade secrets or violate any NDAs): patient case studies, general results where such conclusions could be drawn, trends and statistics where available.

First off, deep brain stimulation is not for the feint of heart. They permanently implant an electrode deep in the middle of your head. Actually, two of them. One on each side. This *is* brain surgery. Screwing up is a Big Deal, and, generally, brain surgery has a risk of complication measured at the 5-10 percent level. Then, in addition to these electrodes in your skull, there are wires which come out under your skin and route down to your chest to a permanently implanted stimulator. Actually, two of them. One on each side. This level of surgery is not something to be taken lightly. The target patient population is not people who feel a little down all the time; these are clinically depressed patients who spend the entire day sitting around doing nothing. Their lives are seriously impacted, just as seriously as someone who had a debillitating major physical ailment such as emphysima, heart disease, or a degenerative bone disease.

Which brings me to the point of this posting, to comment on item 3 of the parent: many seriously believe "fixing" this, particularly the down or depressed side will decrease or neutralize the creative side of those who are exceptionally creative. The patients that this treatment is intended for are so depressed that they have no creative side. They are paralyzed by their depression. They do not function in society. They are barely able to nourish themselves, and, in some cases, require hospitalization or other form of daily care. The parent poster's assertion about this particular treatment is bunk. Brain surgery is not for people who feel down but are able to live halfway decent lives; Brain surgery is for people who are seriously broken. At this meeting, I saw videotapes of patients in the pre-clinical trials, and these are people who are before treatment so fogged by depression that they communicate in single word responses; they often miss appointments with their doctors because they cannot bring themselves to leave the house; they are deeply affected by their condition.

Please draw your own conclusions about the effectiveness of the treatment by inference from Medtronic's pushing this forward to clinical testing. I, for one, am glad to see it advance.

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[metamatic]

Just have to let everyone know, I also met my partner in the 'Psych Ward' of a local hospital.

Of course, this is not generally recommended.

Anyways, she has just given birth to our first child together (its a girl). Hopefully, she wont suffer the same problems as her parents [...]

Unfortunately, since depression has a strong genetic component, chances are she will.

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[equack]

it's not very scientific

Not scientific how? ECT has been around for ~100 years. It has its own journals and an active research community. We may not know exactly how inducing a seizure helps schizophrenic and depressive patients, but medicine is an empirical science.

Recent research shows that the occurance and severity of ECT's side effects can be greatly reduced without reducing the treatment's effectiveness by using short duration pulses. An emerging variation called 'MCT' which induces the seizure using a magnetic field instead of of an electric current also shows fewer side effects. [Don't confuse MCT with other magnetic field treatments like rTMS that do not induce seizures or require general anesthesia.] Some research indicates that the severity of side effects varies considerably depending on the patient's tolerance of the anesthesiologist's cocktail. (typically a mix of Succinylcholine, Propofol, and Alfentanil)

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[BamZyth]

The orgasmatron is one step closer to reality! Now, if this thing could have a USB connection...

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[Masa]

Not scientific how?

By that I meant that it's not so exact science as for example with (a classical example) with broken leg. With the leg you know how it broke, how it's going to cure itself and how to treat the damaged part so it will be healed properly (not the perfect example, I know). ECT is very empirical. Each patient is different and different dosage and positioning of electrodes will affect the results. The method of treatment and dosage are based on the response of the patient. So, while there have been a lot of studies, there is no universal formula which could be used to predict effects of the treatment. Also, there still isn't enough insormation to tell for sure, why some people react positively to the treatment and others don't.

medicine is an empirical science

This I agree, but still I feel that with other parts of medical science there are a lot more known information available and finding the real cause and designing effective treatment is more exact than with almost any psychological illnesses.

occurance and severity of ECT's side effects can be greatly reduced without reducing the treatment's effectiveness by using short duration pulses

This sounds awfully familiar. My wifes doctor talked something about this. If I recall correctly, that's the reason why my wife will receive only one very short pulse at every therapy session.

Anyway, you got me interested in to the MCT. Can you tell me what the acronym stands for? All I cound find was something called "magnetic seizure therapy". Could this be it?

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[pz]

The orgasmatron is one step closer to reality!

This is a running joke amongst my colleagues. It's a lot easier than you might think.

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[equack]

MCT (magneto-convulsive therapy) is sometimes called MST (magnetic seizure therapy). It's ECT by induction, and should not be confused with rTMS (repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation).

rTMS uses magnetic fields to treat some of the same things but it does not require anesthesia or muscle relaxant and does not induce seizures. (The film buffs may not realize that Jack Nicholson's portrayal of shock treatment has not been reality for 60 years. The magic of anesthesia and muscle relaxants allow patients sleep through the whole thing without straining a muscle.)

rTMS stimulates a targeted region of the brain (say, a few cubic centimeters). Example? You can hit just the right frontal lobe. Move the coil backwards to aim for motor functions- twitch city. Move it to the center (above the cingulate) and you get a sort of Magnetic Valium effect. Put it over your knee to simulate a rubber mallet.

disclaimer: I know what I've seen, but I'm not a physician. I'm a humble firmware guy. [Why yes, these machines do contain microcontrollers.] rTMS is approved in Canada and elsewhere but is still in clinical trials in the USA.

Do not try this at home. You don't want to find out the hard way that you are a latent epileptic.

The magnetic muscle stimulation machines used by physical therapists and sports-medics are, um, different on the outside...

There's a bit more on this stuff in ieee Spectrum. See: http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/mar06/3050/1

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[horos2c]

Ok - speaking to someone 'in the know' - I have to ask your considered opinion about rTMS.

As I understand it, repeated transcranial magnetic stimulation works by inducing an electric current inside the head via a magnetic field.

Do you know if there are any plans for studies on this in the US? Personally, I have tinnitus (from motorcycle riding) and have heard that this is one of the first effective treatments for this as well as depression, without the risk of surgery. I'd very much like to hear your opinion on this and if its coming to the US soon, and if so, to what clinics.

Ed

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[Masa]

Thanks for the information!

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah AC gramps, I don't know at all what I'm talking about. I just know what its like to be on medicine riddled with its dozens of side effects that are designed for lifelong dependencies.

Treating a symptom in exchange for a dozen different side effects is no solution to a problem.

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[ponos]

3. Regardless of the treatment, many seriously believe "fixing" this, particularly the down or depressed side will decrease or neutralize the creative side of those who are exceptionally creative. I know many friends who are careful about the medications they take and insist upon some trial & error not just on the effectiveness axis, but the suppression of creativity. If the latter is lost or decreased, they'd rather do without medication (with or without their physican's knowledge).

From what I know, this is mostly associated with the manic phase of the bipolar disorder. Lowered mood is NOT creative. Naturally, an (abnormaly) elevated mood will (over)drive people into creating or doing things they would not normally try.

This can be particularly convincing when it comes to performing arts because an elevated mood and a sense of "grandeur" is usually communicated to the audience. I have met a hypo-maniac (I would dare characterize him clinically maniac, but I don't know him that well) dancer that impressed his audience not so much with the quality of his performance but with his personality.

In my opinion, if you need drugs you are by definition so depressed that you can't function normally and can't be creative. Psychiatrists are supposed to consider creative thinking as a sign that you don't NEED drugs, not as a sign that you'll be better off depressed.

P.

Re:There are a few loose ends....

[70Bang]

Somehow, you seem to think my wording means I'm unaffected by anything described in the article.

I wish you hadn't done that. I really do.

You see, I'm affected in addition to dealing with a permanent headache. Someone ran a red light eleven years ago (April 20th) and I had a severe concussion likened to "shaken baby syndrome". It cost me my Japanese, my Chinese, and I have constant head pain. On a scale of 0-10 (0=no pain), it's never been below a 4 and generally is a 4-5-6. It's not unusual for it to hit 10 and stay there. I'm allowed methadone once a week. I'm allergic to morphine. vicodin, and a lot of meds have so little effect I could probably take a lethal dose before I'd notice any effects. The fear about methadone is although others can take it daily, my body aclimates to meds so fast the doc is afraid there won't be any other opioids which will help me.

Factor that in against all of my other (BiP) medication and that'll give you a overview of the tightrope I walk. Oh, my photophobia (sensitivity to light, particularly flashing, flickering, or bright light - try going to a theatre and not being affected by the shadows on the walls appearing like flashes), vertigo is now intensifying (falling down is fun), stumbling & breaking my toes is fun I haven't enjoyed since college.

I'm depressed...

[Null Nihils]

I'm depressed because I'm worried that Net Neutrality will be destroyed and the Internet will--
*BRZZZZT*

Ooooh. Everything's fine! Nothing to worry about...
Except it's a little depressing that the Bush Administration is--
*BRZZZZT*

Huh. I forgot what I was worried about... now I just feel kind of warm and fuzzy and content...

If

[Baldrson]

If
from Atom Heart Mother

If I were to sleep
I could dream
If I were afraid
I could hide
If I go insane
Please don't put your wires in my brain

Irony of post time

[Anonymous Coward]

When 60 Minutes's Mike Wallace came out about his depression, he did so on a late night talk program. His rationale was that it was usually people with depression who were up that late.

And here's a story, about depression, posted at 1:35 in the morning, and comments coming in even now, more than an hour later.

I recognize the double irony of someone pointing this out at 2:40 AM... but I'm up because uhh... my neighbors loud music... which depresses me... doh.

Re:Irony of post time

[ebrandsberg]

You do realize that the world doesn't live in one timezone right...? And as I write this I'm in the same timezone, yet helping someone 7 hours ahead via IM on a tech issue. Sigh.

The Original Clockwork Orange

[Baldrson]

Anthony Burgess, author of the book "A Clockwork Orange" was the artist in residence while I was in the undergraduate program at the Iowa City Writer's Workshop back in 1974. I think he based his book on the work of Jose M.R. Delgado, M.D. published under the book with the damn spooky title: "Physical Control of the Mind: Toward a Psychocivilized Society".

I managed to get a copy of the book finally, and discovered wonderful passages such as the following on page 115:

ESB [electrical stimulation of the brain -- JAB] may evoke more elaborate responses. For example, in one of our patients, electrical stimulation of the rostral part of the internal capsule produced head turning and slow displacement of the body to either side with a well-oriented and apparently normal sequence, as if the patient were looking for something. This stimulation was repeated six times on two different days with comparable results. The interesting fact was that the patient considered the evoked activity spontaneous and always offered a reasonable explanation for it. When asked, "What are you doing?" the answers were, "I am looking for my slippers," "I heard a noise," "I am restless," and "I was looking under the bed." In this case it was difficult to ascertain whether the stimulation had evoked a movement which the patient tried to justify, or if an hallucination had been elicited which subsequently induced the patient to move and to explore the surroundings.

This passage is eerily reminiscent of a passage from Richard Dawkins' "The Extended Phenotype" chapter titled "Host Phenotypes of Parasite Genes":

"Many fascinating examples of parasites manipulating the behavior of their hosts can be given. For nematomorph larvae, who need to break out of their insect hosts and get into water where they live as adults, '...a major difficulty in the parasite's life is the return to water. It is, therefore, of particular interest that the parasite appears to affect the behavior of its host, and "encourages" it to return to water. The mechanism by which this is achieved is obscure, but there are sufficient isolated reports to certify that the parasite does influence its host, and often suicidally for the host... One of the more dramatic reports describes an infected bee flying over a pool and, when about six feet over it, diving straight into the water. Immediately on impact the gordian worm burst out and swam into the water, the maimed bee being left to die' (Croll 1966)."

Re:The Original Clockwork Orange

[Jendi]

On the subject of books, no-one seems to have mentioned The Terminal Man yet...

Re:The Original Clockwork Orange

[pembo13]

Sorry, I met "Clockwork Orange" in movie form. But where are the books and movies like "Clockwork Orange" today? Has truely creative genes been lost?

Re:The Original Clockwork Orange

[jafac]

This somewhat reminds me of a Slashdot post from about two months ago, about a device some (Darpa?) people were building, which beamed microwaves (or ultrasound?) at people, and caused them to lose their balance and feel as if they had to step to the left or the right (depending on the side where the beamed energy was) to compensate. . .

Re:The Original Clockwork Orange

[sjames]

Jose M.R. Delgado, M.D. published under the book with the damn spooky title: "Physical Control of the Mind: Toward a Psychocivilized Society".

Delgado himself is just plain spooky. He was a significant contributor to mkultra and related 'mind control' projects. The worst part is that he apparently couldn't understand the objection to a "Psychocivilized Society"!

Acute vs. chronic therapy.

[aschoff_nodule]

It has been known for a long time now that sleep deprivation helps drastically improve patients with severe depression. However, if the patient is not already on antidepressant drugs, he will relapse back into depression - http://apt.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/7/2/117

This has been true to some extent with electroconvulsive therapy too. People with severe depression become normal for a few days, but they ultimately need antidepressants.

I wonder whether deep brain stimulation can solve this issue of long term pharmacotherapy, or will it be just one of those overhyped discoveries, which is no better than the existing tools we have?

Quirks and Quarks

[Anonymous Coward]

This has been featured in an episode of Quirks and Quarks (a radio show/podcast) last January. Click on the link for details.

possible spam

[William Robinson]

Dear Sir,

Our records indicate that you had been modded as Troll continuously for last 6 months on slashdot. We understand how depressing this can be.

We can offer you Deep Brain Stmulation to fix the depression and additional free package of Dumb Brain Simulation, to get +5Funny.

Warm regards

Re:Slashdot Stories do Product Placement

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a lot more interesting
It isn't. It's just preconditioned short-sighted babling. Only few blogs are worth the time. NOT yours.

Marvin says:

[maddu]

Oh..it will never work on me - Marvin.

And for MS customers

[packetmill]

we are proud to present:

VERY deep brain stimulation to treat..never mind.

MDT

[BBBBTT1]

What a hot stock, buy MDT today!

Existing technology

[ZeroExistenZ]

Deep Brain Stimulation
This technique is old :P

Marvin Says?

[saden1]

1.

Marvin: I think you ought to know I'm feeling very depressed.
Trillian: Well, we have something that may take your mind off it.
Marvin: It won't work, I have an exceptionally large mind.
Trillian: Yeah, we know.

2.

Marvin: I got very bored and depressed, so I went and plugged myself into [the ship]'s external computer feed. I talked to the computer at great length, and explained my view of the universe to it."
Ford: And what happened?
Marvin: It committed suicide.

3.

Marvin: The first ten million years were the worst. The second ten million? They were the worst too. The third ten million I didn't enjoy at all. After that I went into a bit of a decline.

Re:Marvin Says?

[MichaelSmith]

Marvin was plugged directly into the central intelligence core of the Krikkit war computer. Marvin wasn't enjoying the experience and neither was the central intelligence core of the Krikkit war computer.

ECT 2.0

[altan]

Because there was no actual description of DBS in the article, I looked it up: Deep brain stimulation involves putting the tip of a hair-thin wire down inside the brain in a special area that controls movement. The wire then runs up through a small hole in the skull and under the scalp down to a little device implanted under the collarbone. The device, called a neurostimulator, sends tiny electrical impulses down the wire into the brain. The person can turn the DBS on when needed, and turn it off during sleep (when tremors are less).

This sounds an awful lot like electroconvulsive therapy which doesn't seem to be taken that seriously anymore.

Re:ECT 2.0

[MichaelSmith]

This sounds an awful lot like electroconvulsive therapy

It sounds a lot like The Terminal Man to me

Re:ECT 2.0

[RockModeNick]

Simulating nerve impulses the brain isn't producing on it's own is not in any way like using massive currents of electricity to induce convulsions and grand mal seizure. My girlfriend has a DBS, see my above post on how they aren't really simular at all, except perhaps in that they both depend on that electricity can effect the brain.

Re:ECT 2.0

[Tomfrh]

"This sounds an awful lot like electroconvulsive therapy [wikipedia.org] which doesn't seem to be taken that seriously anymore."

ECT is an effective treatment and is taken quite seriously.

Placebo

[Psychotria]

While I can certainly empathise with those suffering depression (I've been on medication for years) I cannot help but wondering whether the positive benefits of any treatment could be attributed to the placebo effect. I am not saying this out of any disrespect or lack of understanding for the plight of the depressed but, rather, because I know that (for me) depression can be helped just by someone caring. By giving a treatment - any kind of treatment - there is an implied sense of care. Therefore, a reasonable hypothesis may be that any "treatment" may be effective.

There are obviously people around who do not respond to any kind of treatment, and I sincerely hope that this new treatment can help them find some relief.

Re:Placebo

[DiscoOnTheSide]

Psychologists are well aware of this sort of effect, that's why double-blind experiments are usually pretty revealing in their outcomes. Neither those directly performing the treatment or those receiving it are aware if they're taking the real deal or the placebo. Of course this is lumped in with all the other experiments they do, but in my limited (psych undergrad) experience, the double blinds were usually the most revealing.

Re:Placebo

[pembo13]

I think it is safe to assume that these professionals have taken such a well known form of error into consideration.

Stab me brain matey!

[Anonymous Coward]

Great!
 
Now when I go for shock treatment I don't have to deal with the sticky electrodes anymore.
 
They can just stab a fork into my head and shock me the 'Deep Brain' way...

Primal Therapy is a cure for depression.

[Futurepower(R)]

Primal Therapy is a cure for depression. However, it's a lot of work, and most people are looking for an externally administered way out.

It's possible to read the book and do what it says. But that is very scary and only someone with a strong sense of logic is able to guide himself or herself.

Re:Primal Therapy is a cure for depression.

[Anonymous Coward]

From the wiki:
 
... curling up in a fetal position, and sometimes even screaming - in order to express childhood, perinatal and prenatal feelings.

PRENATAL feelings?

The absence of peer-reviewed outcome studies to substantiate this claim led to the therapy falling out of favor in academic and psychotherapeutic circles. However, much recent research, especially regarding brain functioning (neuroscience) is consistent with the Primal hypothesis, ...

Do you or does anyone have any links to the research in question?

Press Release Science

[corgi]

In best /. tradition...

Re:I'm a safety guru!!!

[suv4x4]

Sorry replied to a wrong article, I'm recovering from a shock therapy.

new york times mag on the subject

[bibido]

This closely related and hopeful New York Times Magazine article came out a couple of weeks ago. You need to subscribe (for free) to read it though.

i've tried this before.

[dartarrow]

Except we called it 'pot'

Re:i've tried this before.

[pembo13]

How well did it work for you?

Mentioned on Q&Q

[sedholm]

CBC Radio's Quirks and Quarks did a feature on DBS back in January. See http://www.cbc.ca/quirks/archives/05-06/jan21.html #1

Thank fucking God... if it works.

[TheNoxx]

I don't know how many slashdotters are familiar with people who've been treated for the more extreme side of clinical depression (I myself suffered from psychotic depression, a little more into the deep end, and will have to be rather vigilant on my mental state to keep from spiralling into it again), but if this works it will be a godsend.

Most anti-depressants have really, really bad side affects; prozac is by far the best, but it seems to muffle several higher brain functions... not completely silenjce, but more than enough to be noticeable and very frustrating. Zoloft is the fucking devil and is extremely habit forming, not to mention that it destroys your liver and your immune system. Trying to quit Zoloft cold turkey is like trying to do the same with hard drugs, many people become very, very sick and suffer bowel and stomach problems for days. Zoloft can also cause those feelings in people for the entire duration of their medication; I was one of those people. I couldn't get up in the morning when taking Zoloft and not throw up at least once, and feel like I'd contracted anemia for the whole day. One of my dearest friends was medicated with Zoloft (at twice my dosage, which is ridiculous) for OCD and depression; needless to say, her liver has been annihilated. Even after a year of having stopped taking Zoloft, she maintains an acute weakness to food poisoning and alcohol, which was not present beforehand. Watching her try and quit Zoloft was like watching a train wreck. I've heard similar things with other forms of depression medication, but Prozac and Zoloft are the only ones I've been medicated with, and rather heavily.

Re:Thank fucking God... if it works.

[Psychotria]

Most anti-depressants have really, really bad side affects

I'd love to see substantiation for that claim. It is true that "older-style" drugs had very bad side-effects in many patients, but I've seen no studies concluding that "modern" SSRIs or other modern pharmaceutical treatments have serious side effects in the majority of people. "Serotonin Syndrome" (a possible side effect of SSRI treatment) is by anybodies definition serious, but is usually brought on by drug interactions (incl. "speed", LSD, MAOI anti-depressants etc).

prozac is by far the best, but it seems to muffle several higher brain functions.

Again, I'd love to be proven ignorant and see your substantiatian for this claim... point me to a study.

One of my dearest friends was medicated with Zoloft (at twice my dosage, which is ridiculous) for OCD and depression; needless to say, her liver has been annihilated

I sympathise with your friend but, again, this does not prove anything...

Even after a year of having stopped taking Zoloft, she maintains an acute weakness to food poisoning and alcohol

I am not a doctor, but I would say the anybody with liver damage should avoid alcohol... again, this doesn't prove much except her liver is damaged and needs nurturing.

Watching her try and quit Zoloft was like watching a train wreck. I've heard similar things with other forms of depression medication, but Prozac and Zoloft are the only ones I've been medicated with, and rather heavily

Yes, this is obvious; The body "adjusts" (homeostatis) to the "new body state (with the drugs)" and compensates. When the drug is ceased, the homeostasis effects will still occur and the body will over-compensate, expecting it's normal does of the drug.. this is not unique to anti-depressants.

Re:Thank fucking God... if it works.

[giafly]

Psychotria - You seem to be unaware of Google: prozac side effects.

From the first result: "Prozac is associated with insomnia, restlessness, nausea, and tension headaches, which normally go away within one to two weeks from the time it was first taken. One possible Prozac side effect, which remains for the time it is taken, is its effect on your sex life. It often reduces desire and can delay or interfere with orgasm, in both women and men. Fatigue and memory loss are other possible problems. These side effects subside when you stop taking the drug."

Sounds like "muffling several higher brain functions" to me. Also there is a scary list of other side effects.

Re:Thank fucking God... if it works.

[Anonymous Coward]

You really shouldn't pick apart people's personal experiences as if you know more about the subject than someone who actually experienced it.

I had my own bad experiences with Prozac and Effexor. Both made me feel out of control of my life. Both made me irritable, and say really mean things about my friends and family and then wonder why I did it. I was completely out of control, like a permanent belligerence.

Prozac increased my sex drive. Effexor increased it for a few days, then decreased it full-time and made me not want to even be close to my girlfriend. Not even on the same couch or the same bed. Not emotionally intimate either. Devastated my relationship with her.

It's not my desire to focus on this stuff anymore, but many of the SSRIs have been linked to suicidal and homicidal teens. Some sites suggest that some tests of the drugs actually increased the rate of suicide. Not the tests that got the drugs approved and made the psychotropic drug industry huge though, of course.

Take my anecdotal experiences for what they're worth. But don't try to prove someone wrong or treat them like they're lying just for sharing theirs.

Re:Thank fucking God... if it works.

[mrhandstand]

Zoloft is the f*&king devil and is extremely habit forming, not to mention that it destroys your liver and your immune system

Maybe you aren't trolling, so I'll simply say that not everyone has your experiences - perhaps you could provide linkage instead of flaming anecdotes?

I *CAN* say that my grandmother - a lifelong depressive - was treated with Zoloft beginning in her late sixties (75 now) and is IMMENSELY better off today because of it. She's a happier, more engaged person who takes MUCH better care of herself. Her immune system is fine, and her liver function is apparently OK - no complaints and her checkups are normal. She's careful about mixing alcohol w/ it; I believe that this is on the warning label. As for the addiction...maybe? I don't think she cares given the huge improvement in quality of life.

My $.02.

Re:Thank fucking God... if it works.

[timeOday]

But who knows what the side effects of direct electrical stimulation of the pleasure center might be? It could be the ultimate addiction. Happiness by any natural means might become impossible.

Re:Thank fucking God... if it works.

[soft_guy]

My wife tried Paxil, Prozac, and Zoloft. Zoloft was the one that helped her. She did a lot better on it, but after a couple of years and also some psychotherapy was able to stop taking it. She didn't find it addictive at all - in fact, it was hard to get her to take it in the first place.

Neither of us drink at all and only take medicine when we REALLY need it.

Re:Thank fucking God... if it works.

[BamZyth]

Does typing the word Zoloft aligned in every sentence can be considered as a symptom of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder?

Re:Thank fucking God... if it works.

[TheNoxx]

I'm not saying that Zoloft has really bad side effects on everyone; for many it's a lifesaver. However, many, many more people have bad reactions to it than the company lets on, and that's why I call it the fucking devil. I've known dozens of people that have been on the drug, and I'd say at least half had a really bad reaction, and a few of them immediately quit the medication. Now, maybe I've just come into a huge probability snafu and have met much more people than normally react poorly to this particular anti-depressant, but I doubt it.

Re:hmmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

and 50 years ago they were doing brain surgery for this ...

You wouldn't last two minutes in my world!

[Anonymous Coward]

   

This is bullshit... if you heed firsthand exp...

[Khyber]

The first recourse for these people is "medicate you beyond belief" no matter what they say. After all, this article mentions "Based in part on promising (based on paid-for study-results,) study results presented this week at an international neurosurgical meeting, (We presented potentially false information about) Medtronic, Inc. (NYSE:MDT), announcing its intentions to pursue a major clinical trial (with or without the FDA's approval {like that even counts,}) of the company's deep brain stimulation (DBS) (mind-potenatially inhibiting) technology in the treatment of severe and intractable depression, (just like we did with shock therapy,) a disabling form of the psychiatric disorder affecting millions of people worldwide."

In other words, we're going to severely disable the natural random chance theory that Pascal provided, the same law that should supposedly protect us within the scope of our law, just to protect our businesses, even though it's to some degree proven that Pascal's law is correct in this matter. Yea, right. How about the US GOV'T stops reling upon idiots w/o college degrees (like me, yes I admit I have no college degree,) and lay the smackdown upon idiots that have no real scientific basis for their discoveries? After all, just like the KGB follows - the less information the populace has, the better to control the populace.

Zombie Psychiatrists

[realitybath1]

DBI (Deep Brain Ingestion) is a 100% cure for depression, although it unfortunately requires that your psychiatrist be a zombie.

An added bonus is that zychiatrists charge very low hourly rates.

side effect

[drfrog]

we still dont know enough about how electronic device such as DEs and dream machines effect our brains...some sy they can be on par with drugs

see the trajectories magazine by robert anton wilson

there is lots of healthy debate on this subject in there

It's true what they say

[Joebert]

You need a frontal lobotomy, I need a bottle in front of me.

Doesn't get any more "deep stimulation" than that my friends.

Re:It's true what they say

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice, fuck up a perfectly good old joke.

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy

Better than sex?

[scotbot]

Isn't Deep Brain Stimulation normally called sex. I mean, wouldn't getting laid more often have the same de-stressing, depression-relieving effect. Oh wait, this is /. and the comparison is probably lost on many readers. Ach, never mind ...

Spin Doctors?

[rsbroad]

The original Spin Doctor would strap the patient down in a Barber's chair, and have a nurse spin the patient around and around.
This was touted as a miracle cure for many psyciatric ailments.

Ice baths.
Frontal lobotomy.
Electric shock through the brain.
Psychiatric drugs.

Now a pager with a shock prod installed in the brain.

Isn't this the kind of stuff Evil Scientists(tm) do to their victims?

Demystifying depression

[Cultural Sublimation]

On the subject of burnout and depression, you might also want to check a wikibook on the subject: Demystifying Depression. It takes a very mechanicist view on the problem, but the advice therein contained might be of help to those suffering from depression (it helped me, your mileage may vary of course).

In short, try not to think as depression as something simply psychological, but as a physical illness caused by chronic abuse of the brain. Giving it a chance to rest is the first step towards recovery.

OT: regarding your sig

[Ohreally_factor]

THERE IS NOTHING PERMANENT EXCEPT CHANGE- HERACLITUS,6TH CENTURY B.C

-------

Seven sixteenths of one inch - Maddox, 2003 A.D.

Re:OT: regarding your sig

[d'alz]

Know the meaning of 'For Impactful Effect'. (Did'nt think so...You need to update yourself in the English language.)

Right

[GuloGulo]

"It's not my desire to focus on this stuff anymore, but many of the SSRIs have been linked to suicidal and homicidal teens."

And here's why. Often, people are so depressed that even the act of getting out of bed to deal with daily tasks is impossible. When given an anti-depressant, the individual's mental state improves, giving them the ability to act on their impulses when the couldn't before.

Re:This is bullshit... if you heed firsthand exp..

[Overzeetop]

I'm sorry, I could have sworn that your post implied that the current administration should take the position that the populace should have more information and be less prone to easy manipulation through exploiting their psycological weaknesses?

If that is the correct interpretation, may I ask: What planet have you been on for the last six years?

Please mod parent troll

[GuloGulo]

Save your crap conspiracy theories. People like you make it even harder for people with mental illness to seek treatment.

Equilibrium

[pembo13]

Thinking of Equilibrium are you?

I've got your DBS

[PacketScan]

right here.. it's called a louisville slugger!

Computing approaches to Bipolar

[totierne]

I would like intelligent comment on this, maybe I set my goals too high.
I am manic depressive/bipolar as are most of my family.

ECT [shock therapt] has been successfully useful for one member of my family.

I dream about computer simulation being good enough to suggest some different approachs:

Connectionist Models of Bipolar Disorder
http://www.cnbc.cmu.edu/Resources/disordermodels/b ipolar.html

Connectionist Models of
Cognitive, Affective, Brain,
and Behavioral
Disorders
http://iora1.cnbc.cmu.edu/Resources/disordermodels /index.html

But then maybe that is a typical, to a programmer every information problem is a programming problem. I am beyond, if I was ever capable of, making innovative developments in this area but I just might try to put recent information in a more accessible format.

Anyone out there doing/reading interesting stuff along these lines?

Turloch

We work too damn much!

[Anonymous Coward]

Office Space pretty much summed it all up, we work too much during the time we have on this earth. I'm sure nearly 95% of us don't have enough time to pursue the things that really makes us happy. That is depressing. As Peter said, "Human beings were not meant to sit in cubicles all day staring at computer screens." I personally think we should work 4 hour days...and get paid for 8 hours. Yea yea, I know that would cause chaos the world over...bla bla bla STFU Lumbergh!!

ECT works the same way as....

[Anonymous Coward]

...banging on the side of the monitor to fix the computer.

Real information about this

[Anonymous Coward]

I am involved in a clinical trial in a european hospital about treatment of severe depression (no, it is not used to create always-happy-people).

Deep Brain Stimulation is used a lot to treat Parkinson disease patients (when the levodopa medication does not work well anymore). In my hospital, we noticed that some Parkinson disease patients who also had a depression were also cured from their depression by the treatment; that is why a clinical trial was organized for severe cases of depression, partly financed by Medtronic which of course wants to sell more electrodes and stimulators.

And no, DBS is not "electric shock" therapy : a small electrode is inserted in a specific part of the brain (mainly the subthalamic nucleus for Parkinson disease) and a pacemaker stimulates continuously the brain structure around the electrical contact (small voltage/intensity around 125 Hz). The effects usually disappear after some time if you stop the stimulation.

Oh, wait

[rs79]

I misread that as "Deep brain simulation".

Band-Aids

[Anonymous Coward]

Has anybody considered why millions of people worldwide are intractably depressed? No. They'd rather pour millions into creating expensive drugs and treatment regimes with dreams of profit dancing in their heads...

It is any wonder we're all fucking depressed? Maybe, just maybe, if some of the ills of the modern world were addressed at the root, we'd see dramatic reductions in depression. Nah, that would be far too logical and would not support a profit, therefore it can't be worth it. I wonder if there are any depressed rich capitalists? I highly doubt it. They are dancing on our graves.

" When a man lies he murders
Some part of the world
These are the pale deaths which
Men miscall their lives
All this I cannot bear
To witness any longer
Cannot the kingdom of salvation
Take me home "

let *them* decide on treatment

[bigtrike]

Most depressed, schizophrenic, and confused people don't actually enjoy being way. Shouldn't you let *them* decide if that's how they want to be? While some of them may not be hurting others, it's cruel to say that they should not be allowed treatment to make their lives less miserable and painful. It's not about fitting in, it's about giving people an opportunity to live normal lives if they want it.

Re:let *them* decide on treatment

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been classified as depressed since I was a sentient individual. I can tell you that for much of one's life the decision to deal with it are foisted upon you.

I may not be happy with my life or with the world in general. I may always suffer from depression. But make no mistake. People in my position are let to make their own decision in the matter. They are strongly encouraged in many ways, both positively and negatively to go with the flow. If that is called choice, then let me ask you. As an innocent person, would you choose to be executed or sent to jail for the rest of your life for a crime you did not commit?

Dear Medtronic

[gone.fishing]

I have a teenager that I would like to voulinteer for your trials. I have only one condition, please equip the device with a remote that I can control.

Anecdotal evidence considered problematic.

[Anonymous Coward]

" I *can* say that it is a brutal approach. I refused because I was afraid that it would damage my mind (which is a very good one - polymath). It tore her mind to bits! For months after the sessions she was confused, had massive memory loss (and those memories are gone for good) and suffered - possibly more than the depression itself. I think that one could compare it to resetting a computer by throwing a bucket of water over it. Quite possibly, its only effect is to press RESET on the brain and let it rebuild from there. "

    You *can't* say that, because it would be an over-generalization from a single person's experience. Some people find it deeply traumatic and damaging. Others are blissfully free of side-effects and rewardingly effective at treating their condition.

    At which point you can still label it "brutal", if you're solipsistic enough to believe that "the way it is for you" must be the way it is for everyone and therefore that those who report positive experiences must simply be masochists who enjoy being brutalised. Or you could say that it's brutal for some people but not others, if you want to be a bit more balanced.

    For all the people who report damaging and negative experiences with it, there are just as many who report positive results. Nobody has the right to tell your wife that her experiences weren't painful and distressing, because that would be to deeply disrespect her struggle with illness. Likewise, you must not dismiss the reports of those who have had different experiences with it.

Depression is Real

[gone.fishing]

Depression is a real condition. Being "depressed" is not the same as suffering from depression. When you are sad and you know you will get over it that is being depressed and is part of the normal human condition. Depression on the other hand is a long dark tunnel, you can not see the light at the end of the tunnel and you hold out no hope that things will get better. It is not a feeling most people would consider normal although people who suffer from it accept it as a normal part of their lives (that is why so many fail to seek help).

This chronic condition is very serious, it is the number one cause of suicide today. Chronic depression contributes to a whole slew of self-destructive behaviors and is a major contributing factor in alcoholisim, drug abuse, child neglect, and other very serious social ills.

If life seems dull or you feel trapped inside of a bubble, if you can't find happiness when others around you do, or if you just never have energy, please see a professional (start with your doctor if you do not want to see a "shrink") to see if they can help you break out of the cycle. If you even think you may be depressed, it is time to see someone. If you think of killing yourself to escape it all, please drop everything and make the call right now.

Heads up! Statistical manipulation incoming!

[Anonymous Coward]

I just noticed this bit in the referenced article:

" More than 30,000 people worldwide have received DBS therapy with a Medtronic Kinetra(R) or Soletra(R) neurostimulation system. More than 50 of these people have taken part in several separate "pilot" studies of DBS therapy as a potential treatment for severely disabling psychiatric disorders, including depression and OCD. "

So, the *same* group of fifty people have taken part in *several* studies. Can we say "statistical cohort selection bias"? This is a guaranteed recipe for bogus results. It's massive scientific and mathematical incompetence at the very least, but it could equally be a deliberate attempt to fudge the data.

    Did the Medtronic marketing department pick the fifty best responders to form this sample?

Medtronic. Aren't they...

[stanwirth]

...the same people that just had to recall their defibrillators because they were malfunctioning, and couldn't reproduce the test data adequately?

Cost

[parvin]

So does the happy ending cost extra?

Re:The Singularity and the end of the human mind

[vertinox]

It will be fascinating to see what lengths society is willing to go to prohibit individuals from indulging in effortless reward. I can't wait to see copper wire on schedule I.

I think Ray Kurzweil briefly touched in one of his books, essays, or speeches (I can't remember which) about one of the darker sides of self stimulation about how a lab rate with a electrode tied directly to the part of his brain that had his joy (or good feeling) receptors.

This electrode would fire when the rat pressed the lever they setup for him.

However, the rat did nothing but press the lever and didn't bother to eat or drink or do anything else but press the bar.

Ray (being the optimist) skimmed over and didn't say much after that...

However, I think it can be inferred that given enough technology and choice, man would just put his brain into a machine controlled jar and then the electrodes would just fire away for all eternity.

Hopefully at that point we'd have Strong AI and the machines would take care of the problems in the world and figure out how to reverse things like Heat Death or the Big Crunch if they ever so did happen.

Personally, I foresee humanity having the ability to just will things away with technology. You can choose not to feel pain, nor boredom, nor any emotion you don't want to feel...

I used to see this as kind of dangerous, but then I realized that this is the common goal of Buddhism.

Perhaps the only way to avoid technological mind oblivion in the future (in where you can't resist turning on all your joy electrodes and just sitting in a incubator for 100,000,000 years) is to become Buddhist or a masochist.

Yes... I said masochist.. In where you willfully turn on your sensory far beyond a normal person where pain and boredom are amplified.

Where as all those who choose to sit in the jars and do nothing for eternity are just ignored by the beings that go out and do things because they are highly bored, horny, or pissed off at the universes current condition.

Of course this might mean immortal synthetic sadists wandering the universe highly pissed off destroying planets, but I don't think we'll have to worry about that for another 10,000 years or so. (If we survive that long).

Re:Medtronic. Aren't they...

[hambonewilkins]

You're (presumably) thinking of Guidant, now owned by Boston Scientific.

Good look in your job!

[tHatDudeUK]

Now if this is a cure and people can no longer be depressed, this means employers can take the p**s three times as much as usual.

Lost in a sea of faces

[Anonymous Coward]

Kutless
Sea of Faces

I see the city lights all around me
Everyone's obscure
Ten million people each with their problems
Why should anyone care

And in Your eyes I can see
I am not just a man, vastly lost in this world
Lost in a Sea of Faces
Your body's the bread, Your blood is the wine
Because you traded Your life for mine

Sometimes my life it feels so trivial
Immersed in the greatness of space
Yet somehow you still find the time for me
It's then You show me Your love

And In Your eyes I can see
And in Your arms I will be
I am not just a man, vastly lost in this world
Lost in a Sea of Faces
Your body's the bread, Your blood is the wine
Because you traded Your life for mine

If only my one heart
Was all you'd gain from all it cost
Well I know you would have still been a man
With a reason
To willingly offer your life

I am not just a man, vastly lost in this world
Lost in a Sea of Faces
Your body's the bread, Your blood is the wine
Because you traded Your life for mine

Just one in a million faces

Deep Brain Stimulation

[Anonymous Coward]

Deep brain stimulation is currently used for severe movement disorders like essential tremor (Katherine Hepburn has ET involving the head), Parkinson's Disease, or dystonia (involuntary muscle contractions that result in abnormal, sustained postures, like the head being twisted to one side.) They are used in patients that haven't responded well to medications (propranolol or primidone in ET, or botulinum toxin in dystonia, etc) or can't use the medications, and their ability to function is severely impacted. DBS works in better than 90% of patients with ET, for example. The problem is about 4% of the electrodes fail per year and it has to be replaced. In ET, electrode leads are implanted bilaterally. I think it's around $50,000 to have bilateral implants, but if you can't use your arms due to involuntary movements, that's not very expensive and worth the risks.

ASO, MD
Neurology

Nice post, but lost it at the end

[Anonymous Coward]

You seem to miss the point in your third para, which surprised me since your post otherwise struck me as sympathetic, insightful and well-phrased.

When you're depressed you don't want to recover, because at a gut level you simply don't believe in the possibility of (permanent, long-term) recovery. You just want out. Given that, and the complete lack of activation energy that characterizes depression, exhortations to "make the call right now" are about as useful as exhortations to "snap out of it".

Re:Nice post, but lost it at the end

[gone.fishing]

I've suffered from depression yet I found the energy to go to the doctor and get help. I won't claim that what I've battled is as severe as some other people who I have known. Still, depression had a very severe impact on my life for a number of years (thankfully, I did not turn to drugs, alcohol, or suicide to "solve" it. I will admit that I did not directly tell the doctor I was depressed, he diagnosed it and got me on the medications that have really helped.

People are all different, each individual is unique. There are some people who are so deeply depressed that they are almost litterally zombies. Those people need the help of someone else to get them to the doctor. If you know someone in that condition, be a friend and take them by the hand and get them to the doctor.

depressed

[Anonymous Coward]

Society breeds depression by not emotionally supporting its members.

Society then wants to employ a pseudo science like psychology to tackle the problem of depression.

Psychology coupled with Neurotechnology offer an escapist shortcut to solving the problem and the medical field bends over for the fix.

The truth is that we as communities should revise our 'drug' laws. Marijuana is great for some of our members, just admit it!... (unleash your ignorance now)

Cocaine and other substances can be administered in controlled levels so that all of us can live happily.

By Dr. Ralph Leaf.

Even though inhumain: shock therapy?

[paperclip2003]

Didn't electo shock therapy work for depression as well? It did not work for other "disorders", but I took an adormal psycology class and it was know to cure Dipression in certain instances. Of course, it has some real negatives like killing brain cells, etc. I don't know if this is related but it sounds similar. -R

Re:Medtronic. Aren't they...

[stanwirth]

Oh that's right! Medtronic's recall was for malfunctioning with bad battery contacts, over a year ago -- Guidant's recall is just the most recent in a series. Whew! Now we can all feel safer buying a Medtronic thing that shoots electrons and chemicals into someone's brain, eh? Oh the neurostimulation will probably go to the right place, right?

Plausible compared to other pschoanalysis

[Baldrson]

Janov's idea that trauma creates buffered "jobs" for neural processing awaiting high capacity (neural maturation) and/or less stressful situation (removal from the immediate threat of whatever is creating the trauma) makes evolutionary sense. I'm not sure he's the originator of the idea but it is at least something that is a theory of psychotherapy that is falsifiable and therefore light-years ahead of what people ordinarily think of as psychoanalysis.

Primal Therapy is an easily testable theory.

[Futurepower(R)]

I agree with what you said. I think you meant "not falsifiable". What was weird for me when I read "The Primal Scream" for the first time was that the book, basically, proposes an easily testable theory. Most "theories" of Psychology are cleverly arranged to be untestable.

I have personal experience that Janov's theory works.

Deep Brain Stimulation as Depression Treatment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Skull fuck, anybody?

Well, anecdotes have their place but...

[Baldrson]

What is needed is something akin to the sort of theraputic validation done for treatments like surgery. You can't very well do double blind controlled studies of surgery but you can nevertheless do validation. Moreover, there needs to be better operational definition of the treatment than "That which is done by someone trained by Janov's institute." The cultish aspect of Janov's therapy has got to go before it can be considered legitimate medical science. It's all part of the maturation of a discipline. First you have religion, which no one can reproduce. Then you have magic, which only the initiated can reproduce. Finally you have science, which anyone can reproduce.

Not there yet...

I agree that Janov's Institute seems cultish now..

[Futurepower(R)]

James,

I was surprised when I read your first comment in this thread and the one above. Very few people, in my experience, understand scientific methods or language. It's obvious that you do.

I agree that Janov's Institute seems cultish now, based on reading the web site. My experience is from 30 years ago, when what was called "self-primaling" was encouraged by Janov.

However, you seem to think that reading the web site and my short comment gives you a good idea of the work done in the field. There's plenty of material; there seems to be no hint of that on the Institute web site.

Still your guess may be a good one. I once applied to be a researcher at Janov's institute. I was told they didn't do research. No one connected with Janov seems to have an understanding of science.

Off topic: I am trying to advise someone in university what computer related field in which to specialize. She currently is impressed with AI. Is Artificial Intelligence advanced enough that someone who does not have a PhD should specialize in it? Or is it still work done in research labs, and far from having practical uses? Judging from your web site, I think you may have some ideas and maybe links to web sites.

Data mining with imputation

[Baldrson]

Although the list is growing with things like inductive logic programming coming into application in areas like bioinformatics, probably the closest thing to applied AI nowadays -- that won't leave you unemployed -- is data mining with emphasis on imputation of missing data.

Heavily statistical.

If she wants to get into stuff where the big money will be at the peak of her career (say age 40) she should definitely focus on Marcus Hutter's stuff.

The Terminal Man?

[Ringthane]

Hmmm. Pacemaker for the brain... Here's a cautionary note from Michael Crichton: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072267/

Not really...

[Cryptnotic]

The human being has a very deep seated instinct for survival. People can realize that something is wrong and that they need to call a doctor before things get worse. That being said, people often wait until things are very serious, partly due to there being a serious stigma against mental illness.

Do you have feelings of inadequacy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you suffer from shyness?

Do you sometimes wish you were more assertive?

If you answered yes to any of these questions, ask your doctor or pharmacist about Tequila®. Tequila® is the safe, natural way to feel better and more confident about yourself and your actions. Tequila® can help ease you out of your shyness and let you tell the world that you're ready and willing to do just about anything.

You will notice the benefits of Tequila® almost immediately, and with a regimen of regular doses you can overcome any obstacles that prevent you from living the life you want to live. Shyness and awkwardness will be a thing of the past, and you will discover many talents you never knew you had. Stop hiding and start living, with Tequila®

Tequila® may not be right for everyone. Women who are pregnant or nursing should not useTequila® However, women who wouldn't mind nursing or becoming pregnant are encouraged to try it.

* Side effects may include

• dizziness
• nausea
• vomiting
• incarceration
• erotic lustfulness
• loss of motor control
• loss of clothing
• loss of money
• loss of virginity
• delusions of grandeur
• table dancing
• headache
• dehydration
• dry mouth
• a desire to sing Karaoke
  and / or playing all-night rounds of Strip Poker, Truth Or Dare, and Naked Twister.

Temperature Oscillation of the human body

[RabidTrucker]

A newly patented & copyrighted system can now be built right inside your home. Add'l on this page > http://www.newpath4.com/40yearstolife.htm . Basically, it is a system that recognizes air as being a fluid, that people (all mammals) benefit from in both physique & mental ability. By a person (etc.) moving from an air conditioning unit heated room into an AC conditioner cooled room, back and forth maybe every 5-10-15 minutes, it causes an "oscillation" of body temperature that forces adaptation (exercise) of all bodily functions, just like in & out from the Sahara desert into the Antarctic tundra.

You could accomplish the same effect by turning the shower from cold to hot back & forth hehehe if you're tough enough... but it would run into a big electric bill. For the temperature oscillation to work you have to spend enough time for your individual bodymass size to cool down, then to heat up, so you would be in the shower wrinkling for an hour.

The patent was written specifically to cover all fluids, not just air. So you take a "dunking" in cold air fluid then a dunking in warm-to-hot air fluid... & the oscillation in and out of near hypothermia causes a lot of exercise internally throughout the body.

Good things about it? Plenty. For one you don't pay an expensive clinic any monies, don't need to ask someone's Big Daddy godvernment permission to do it. The system will break cholesterol plaques from inside the circulatory system (heart, arteries, veins) just like a good sweating on the tennis court after taking an aspirin. Increased oxygenation of the brain (from the increased blood flow) will slow or reverse Depression, Dementia, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's without taking any expensive body-damaging prescription drugs or pills. This system exercises the human body completely, which means Space Tourism has just taken a big step forward to allowing all regular citizens to travel into Outer Space. Shouldn't take much more than 2-3 months of using the system to lose the dumpy tummy fat, raise metabolism, gain muscles from all the shivering & shaking (ridding the cellulite leg). Please see http://www.prleap.com/pr/32066 .

I made another post on SlashDot today that covers my lifelong bipolar depression & how I got off the meds before they finished me off in 2002. They were damaging me, dissolving my brain, if you want to read the long story > http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=184215 &cid=15221973 . This page is the shorter story but more explanation.

The air conditioning units should be set to Low for starters to gradually build you & your loved ones to a higher state of health. Watch the clock! Don't start for long periods please. This is NOT a toy. My best idea for how to setup this system is to make a partition in your basement, with the air conditioner sending hot air into the side of the basement where the hot water heater is (away from the door drafts), while the cold output side would be toward the chest freezer. That way, even tho the AC unit is using plenty of electricity the load is taken off the water heater & the freezer.

This system opens Space Travel for nearly everyone. We will NOT go into Outer Space being depressed. The military now in control of space exploration will lose their exclusivity to Space. http://www.newpath4.com/fountainofyouth.htm begins the long story of how this system works but the "nitty gritty" is on this page http://www.newpath4.com/fountainofyouth_testanswer s.htm with all pages interlinked.

Try

On the subject of depression

[Pateras]

On the subject of depression

Re:Medtronic. Aren't they...

[hambonewilkins]

Look, don't really want to get into this, but I cover Medtech for a living and Medtronic, Advanced Bionics and ANS all have years and years of experience DBS. Safety isn't really a concern, efficacy may be.

Re:The Singularity and the end of the human mind

[jafuser]

The short free online novel The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect goes into the same concepts you bring up.

In the novel, all humans are made immortal and are given literally anything and everything they want (except death). Some people choose to become eternally wired vegetables, and others become uber-sadomasochists to curb off boredom.