More Oblivion Re-Rating Fallout

The ESRB has a retort to the criticism leveled against it after rating Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion Mature. The move has required Bethesda Softworks to pull all of the current stock of the game to relabel. From the GameDailyBiz article: "When we brought the topless female images to Bethesda Softworks' attention, they confirmed that the art file existed in a fully rendered form in the code on the game disc. The ESRB's investigation found that the mod allowed users to change the filename for the female character mesh in order to access the art file that was created by Bethesda. While true that a modification was required to access this file, the changes we implemented last year - expanding our disclosure rules to include locked-out content - were made to prevent these kinds of situations" Via Cathode Tan, who has his own commentary, an opinion piece by John Romero has yet another view of the complicated situation.

Comments

movies v. videogames

[gEvil (beta)]

Small amounts of nudity are allowed in PG13 movies. However, if you have the same sort of nudity rendered in a videogame, it gets rated M. I'm not entirely clear why the Teen rating doesn't cover this for games...

Re:movies v. videogames

[falcon5768]

not even that there WAS no nudity in the game. Much like GTA you had to HACK the game to get the nudity in.

sure the skins where there, but they wherent accessable IN game.

ITs the same thing with comics and movie though back in the day, its the new political fallboy, give it 5-10 more years and it will be something else.

Re:movies v. videogames

[idontgno]

Not to be pedantic, (not intentionally), but reason standards aren't obviously consistent is because the ESRB is not the MPAA.

They're not the same organization, not controlled by the same people, not rating the same media, nothin'. They don't necessarily have the same leadership or employees.

To consumers, I'm sure, media is media is media, and consistent standards and enforcement should be obvious. But consistent standards and enforcement is not required and in the minds of some might be anti-competetive.

You expect consistency where there is no reason (other than in your expectations) for there to be any. The only place to enforce that "media-is-media" ratings consistency is government, and that's the LAST thing any sane consumer or producer wants.

Re:movies v. videogames

[jkmullins]

I think much of the confusion from those unfamiliar with the inner workings of the industry is due to the way many games (and I'm assuming Oblivion as one) does character modeling. You can take a basic character model and layer different layers of clothing on top, it would be relatively easy for someone to slightly modify a texture, put it on an existing model, and call it a topless female. Sure, the model was already there, but it wasn't because they were putting nude females in. It was just there because it was easier to take that model and put different types of clothing models on that it was to make different models for each and every character in the game with a different shirt.

Pointing to that as an example of ill intent by Bethseda is just flat-out irresponsible by those who are arguably supposed to be industry insiders.

Re:movies v. videogames

[BobPaul]

They're not the same organization, not controlled by the same people, not rating the same media, nothin'. They don't necessarily have the same leadership or employees.

No, but you'd think that since video game ratings came later they would have based them somewhat off of the other ratings systems that existed at the time, namely the movie ratings system.

Re:movies v. videogames

[Bob of Dole]

Parent have accepted that there is merit to movies.
Video Games are still in the same area as comic books (Clearly aimed at kids, even if they have an adult market), so they had to be rated more strictly. (Because even though the average age for gamers is somewhere in the low 20s, games are for kids. Period.)

Re:movies v. videogames

[plague3106]

This whole thing is silly. If you have to download a 3rd party hack to get the the nude content, I don't see why that should affect the ratings at all. What if the mod added the content, not just unlocked it? Should that affect the rating of the game to?

Why not just add a disclaimer: This game can be modded to include content not covered by this rating.

Re:movies v. videogames

[voice_of_all_reason]

I'm pretty sure a few mainstream comics have had butts. Maybe dark, shadowy, terminator-style "artistic" butts, but it's a start.

Re:movies v. videogames

[twistedsymphony]

last I checked the average age of gamers were in the high 20s/low 30s... I'd have to imagine the parents who are complaining about this stuff are either getting up there in age or weren't the gaming type when they were younger. I know plenty of people who are parents in their 30s and 40s who play games and think all the hooplah about the ESRB, government regulations, jack Thompson, and GTA are all ridiculous.

I find it's not until you get into the late 40s and beyond that people start thinking games are just for kids etc.

Re:movies v. videogames

[frosty_tsm]

Small amounts of nudity are allowed in PG13 (I think they rate it as "brief nudity").

However, having a character's model be nude constantly throughout gameplay is a bit more.

The others are right, logic doesn't play into it as well and people still have the image of video games being a kid's thing (and so they try to protect the kids).

Re:movies v. videogames

[minus_273]

oh you mean like titanic (pg-13) had so little nudity. And my favorite, 16 candles (lots of American pie type nudity in the shower scene) has a pg rating?

Re:movies v. videogames

[TheRecklessWanderer]

I think the problem was that the file was included on the CD/DVD and through some tampering of file names the images in question would be displayed. I don't think the ESRB would be so worried if you had to download a file and put it in a directory. Not much Bethesda could do about that, but the fact that the file was included on the disk was the problem. Sort of a due dilligence issue, I think. But when it comes down to it, it's Bethesda's fault for leaving the file on the disk in "rendered" format.

Re:movies v. videogames

[Blakey Rat]

The real problem is that the ESRB rating was way too low in the first place. M is probably the correct rating for the game, considering it's more violent and gruesome than Halo (which got an M. Then again, I don't really feel Halo deserved an M, since it only shows alien blood.)

I think the nude texture is just an excuse for the ESRB realizing their mistake in the face of complaints and adjusting the rating to be more accurate. Of course, the real question is how it got a T in the first place... did anyone there PLAY the game? For more than an hour? Criminy.

Re:movies v. videogames

[FictionPimp]

From what I understand the 'rendered' skin is a male topless skin. The hack is just using that skin on the female model thus giving her tits. Is the solution to make all males wear sports bras?

Re:movies v. videogames

[jandrese]

That's one thing that's always bothered me. Why does making something's blood red automatically raise the rating? Is fake green "blood" splatter less disturbing than fake red "blood" splatter? It's gets even sillier when game makers do a pallate swap on the "blood" to get a lower rating. How is that any less violent?

Re:movies v. videogames

[SubconsciousSeraphim]

Well, the thing is, this wouldn't be a *small* amount of nudity. The video game environment means you could have a number of topless women running around for an extended period of time. The PG-13 rating is for *brief* displays of nudity.

Heck, even a single topless shot can push something frmo PG-13 to R. See the Wikiepedia entry here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPAA_film_rating_syst em

So, whether we agree that a rendered breast can corrupt or not, it's a little easier to see that the standards should at least apply equally in movies and games.

Re:movies v. videogames

[PixieDust]

It's simpler even than that. Daggerfall, which had a Mature rating, featured nudity throughout the game (Some of the monsters, and hey, you could always just strip your character down if you REALLY wanted too, who needs armor anyway). Tomb Raider. Oh hey yea that one needed a patch (see: Nude Raider). What's this? No New Rating? Oh now I am SO offended by that. Children could spend hours scouring the net to find the nude raider patch, apply it, then play as Lara Croft nekkid. We have to protect our children from this type of leftist attack on good wholesome fully clothed values.
Yes ESRB, flag ANY game which shows a little nudity as MA. Good conservatives will tell you that massive violence, blowing things up, shooting (evildoers) people/things is perrfectly fine. Just as long as everyone is fully clothed and no one's holding hands.
/sarcasm off
Now then. Consider the cost incurred by Bethesda in this. Now consider the damage that this can/likely WILL cause to game developers, and to the caming community. Who remembers NeverWinter Nights? Fantastic game, made more so by the OPENESS of the game, where users/enthusiasts could create their own mods. That game enjoys a fanatical cult following to this day because of that. Now consider if game manufacturers have to be concerned about the types of mods users (or people who hate them) create? It will eventually lead to the annihilation of user created content for games (at least the ability coming from the game devs).
I have an idea. Let's all go to our local Best Buy, grab a copy of "Barbie's Grand Adventure" (or whatever the hell those things are called now), write a nudity patch for them (WOOHOO, go Ken! Go Ken!), and forward all of this to the ESRB. Barbie must be made to understand her immoral relationship with Ken must stop. She shant be poisoning the minds of our children any longer with her unmarried, unclothable, nonsense.
And on that thought, all these Action figures need ratings of MA as well, or least "Toy suitable for ages 17+" because you can strip them nekkid! God save us from ourselves!
/rant off

Re:movies v. videogames

[richlv]

americans are ashamed to sho a human body, but quite eager to show ripping a lot of bodies apart.

oh well, most of them probably have to be ashamed of their bodies - from overall weigth problems to obsessive body modifications including but not limited to over-the-top plastic surgery and teeth remaking ;)

Re:movies v. videogames

[TRACK-YOUR-POSITION]

You expect consistency where there is no reason (other than in your expectations) for there to be any.

Given that rating systems are supposed to express meaning to consumers, consumer expectation should be reason enough. And how would ESRB and MPAA be considered competitors. If they rated the same media, yes, they would be competitors, but since they each stay isolated in their own field the existence of either seems like a vast anti-trust violation, no more or less so if they happen to talk to one and another.

A more reasonable argument would be that the MPAA would sue the ESRB if it copied their standards.

<i>The only place to enforce that "media-is-media" ratings consistency is government, and that's the LAST thing any sane consumer or producer wants.</i>

If the government ratings were voluntary just like ESRB and MPAA ratings are now, then I fail to see the disadvantage.

Re:movies v. videogames

[Fulcrum of Evil]

No, but you'd think that since video game ratings came later they would have based them somewhat off of the other ratings systems that existed at the time, namely the movie ratings system.

They did. E for everyone, T for teens, M for mature. This closely mirrors movie ratings and expands on it by saying why the rating is what it is.

Re:movies v. videogames

[Fulcrum of Evil]

It's gets even sillier when game makers do a pallate swap on the "blood" to get a lower rating. How is that any less violent?

PResumably because it's less recognizable as human.

Re:movies v. videogames

[DragonWriter]

Given that rating systems are supposed to express meaning to consumers

"Supposed" to whom? To the politicians who pressured the industry to create them with the threat of censorship? No, to them the ratings are supposed to be something they can find error with and continually blame for problems, so they can go on little symbolic quests to "fix" the problem without doing anything substantive, so it will recur for them to "fix" again. To the industry? No, the ratings were and are for them a manner of doing the least possible to avoid the possibility of intrusive government regulation. To most people buying video games? I don't think most consumers care about ratings. To the parents who actually care enough and spend some minimnal effort to exert control over what their children play, but can't be bothered to actually check out the game itself, research reviews, or do anything more than look at the box cover at rating block? Well, yeah, I expect both of them see expressing meaning to consumers as a major function of the ratings system.

Re:movies v. videogames

[Feanturi]

it would be relatively easy for someone to slightly modify a texture

In this instance though, the texture requires no modification. It has nipples with areolae, and as to the model itself, the nipples even cast shadows. How that is at all necessary for a base reference model escapes me.

I'm not saying it bothers me, hell I went ahead and nuked the non-nude upper body and renamed the nude one so the game would use it, for shits and giggles. So when their upper armour gets looted off their corpse, hey boobies! [insert lame joke about how Slashdotting gamer has to kill women in order to get to see them topless] But Bethsoft did kind of screw up on this one. Yes it's not in the game by default, and the art files in the .bsa archives are not accessible by default, but the content in question did not actually need to be as detailed as it is for them to have something to work from, and indeed should have been deleted before packing up the archives. Now they get to be accused of pulling a Hot Coffee, which sucks for everyone.

Re:movies v. videogames

[Firehed]

Plus all you see is some pixelated darker circles. If you rotate the model sideways, there's no, erm, protrusions beyond what a profile of a woman in a bra would have. Considering that we relied on the things for our first few months of survival, I think an unrealistic blurry semi-representation that requires hacking to access is hardly going to become a damning mark on society.

Re:movies v. videogames

[BobPaul]

Sortof, but what actually defines the ratings is very different. The actual ratings are similar, where E matches with G and T match with PG/PG-13 and R matches with M, but like the grandparent to my first post said, in a PG-13 movie you can have partial nudity (topless women) but not in a T game, and that I agree that that seems kind of strange.

I've read the ratings for video games, and especially of late, they seem much more strict than movies. I don't think that should be the case, regardless of having two seperate groups creating the guidelines.

Re:movies v. videogames

[Deathbane27]

M'aiq knows much, tells some. M'aiq knows many things others do not. *Rumors* Some people think REAL boobies in movies are fine for teen viewing, but FAKE boobies in video games are not. M'aiq thinks these people are idiots, and publishers should stop doing business with them.

Re:movies v. videogames

[Bezben]

I think all books should be rated mature too. Do you realise what kind of filth you can make with the letters in any of them?

Re:movies v. videogames

[Criterion]

"What if the mod added the content, not just unlocked it? Should that affect the rating of the game to?"

No, it shouldn't, and I've not seen anything of the sort happening. Why bring up something that has not happened, and has not been hinted at happening?

Re:movies v. videogames

[Criterion]

"From what I understand the 'rendered' skin is a male topless skin"

Sorry, you understand wrong.

Re:movies v. videogames

[Fulcrum of Evil]

in a PG-13 movie you can have partial nudity (topless women) but not in a T game, and that I agree that that seems kind of strange.

Yeah, well they're two separate genres. I'm not sure why you think it's a good idea to rate them with the same yardstick. IMO, the problem isn't that the rating systems are different. It's that parents don't pay attention.

Re:movies v. videogames

[emilper]

yes ... and mirrors should be banned, too, or at least labeled "18+"

women should be forbidden, or at least locked up until they reach 50 ... to be on the safe side, lets make that 105

Italian TV channels should be banned too, together with "wildlife" shows dealing with anything but unicelular organisms; also ban flowers (you know what flowers are, don't you?), pointy objects, hollow objects, tools to sharpen things or bore into things, pre-1900 pictures or sculptures with no urns in it, post-1900 pictures and sculptures (just to make sure, you never know what that black square is standing for), the letters i, o, l, j, t, q, and Y, the digits 1, 7 and 0, and also the noun "digit" should be replaced with a more decent combination of letters

or better just provide free medical treatment to the guys and gals that get the jitters by looking at pretty rudimentary 3D models that resemble the human body only for those that haven't taken a shower in their life ...

Cruel!

[Kazzahdrane]

Do you have any idea how cruel it is to include the word "Fallout" in the story title of an article in the Games section?

Zonk, expect rabid RPG fans after you for raising their hopes, albeit by accident!

Re:Cruel!

[revlayle]

Maybe with Bethesda going ahead and pretty much accepting the M rating for Oblivion, maybe they'll go all out 'M' when (or perhaps, *if*, knowing the luck of the franchise) they release Fallout 3

Re:Cruel!

[westlake]

maybe (Bethesda will) go all out 'M' when...they release Fallout 3

Fine by me. Bethesda is one of the few companies I'd trust to understand that "Mature" is not a synonym for soft-core pornography.

Unbelievable!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is as if Snow White gets an R rating because someone splices in a few frames from a porn movie into one reel...

Re:Unbelievable!

[The Eagle Maint]

No, it isn't, and I wish people would stop posting bogus analogies. Using your example, a fitting comparison would be if Snow White had some extra pornographic footage hidden on the DVD it came on (for example), and then someone found a way to get that scene to play in place of another in the movie. The problem is that the nude skin is present on the disc, which wasn't disclosed to the ESRB - not the modification itself.

Re:Unbelievable!

[Anonymous Coward]

The point is: There ISN'T any nudity in oblivion in that sense. It is a male chest, that everyone who has been at a swimming pool has seen, and that has probably been in enough children's movies as well. Is is mapped to a female model, which it wasn't indented for, and the nipples line up with where they would be on an anatomically correct model.

Re:Unbelievable!

[Anonymous Coward]

Way to spoil a nice Fight Club reference.

Re:Unbelievable!

[Anonymous Coward]

Closer, but still not quite right. What you described was the hot coffee mod. What happens here is more like being able to change Snow White's clothing to perfect flesh tones for the whole movie.

Re:Unbelievable!

[IAstudent]

No one saw it but they know they did.

BTW, Nice big ****

Re:Unbelievable!

[IAstudent]

This just in: No one knows they saw that poor attempt at getting mod but they did.

Re:Unbelievable!

[Criterion]

It is NOT a male chest, and I wish people would quit posting this bogus information.

Changing the rating

[eleven357]

I would figure that the more violent a game was, the higher the rating would be on the game (mature, etc.) I thought violence was worse than a naked body of a woman. What truly is the worst evil? Violence or Naked Women? I think that the ESRB needs to get their priorities straight.

Re:Changing the rating

[bluemeep]

In America? Naked women. A boob is a thousand times worse than seeing a human being gutted, ripped in half and having both chunks set on fire. Make sense? Not really, but that's the way this country works.

Re:Changing the rating

[TubeSteak]

What truly is the worst evil? Violence or Naked Women?

Honestly, it's Violence towards Naked Women.

Obviously it depends on the context, but on the whole, you can stir up some trouble by mixing women (clothed or not) and violence.

Take a game, replace all the killable Monsters/Nazis/bad guys with women and watch the fury boil over.

Re:Changing the rating

[Anonymous Coward]

And yet the same people who rant and rave about breasts would undoubtedly turn around and call a country forcing women to wear veils or otherwise cover up another part of their body an "oppressive, sexist regime".

Re:Changing the rating

[Surt]

It makes a certain kind of sense if you understand the right viewpoint:
Sex content => sex crimes against women
Violent content => violent crime

Which is worse in this country? According to the stats, sex crimes are far more common than violent crimes (assuming you don't give the violent crime category credit for the violence typically involved in sex crimes).

Re:Changing the rating

[Slime-dogg]

The worst form of evil is an erection caused by the sight of a nipple on a breast. This is far more evil, for instance, than an erection caused by seeing human beings ripped in half, and having both chunks set on fire.

Re:Changing the rating

[Saanvik]

You're right, but I just want to clarify what you're saying so that everyone understands it.

Here are the ideas you have to accept as fact for this to make sense.

1. People who are exposed (via tv, movies, video games, etc.) to violent content are more likely to commit violent crimes.
2. People that are exposed to nudity are more likely to commit sex crimes, or behave in other sexual ways that are seen as deviant to the norm and thus, a problem for society.
3. It's more important to stop sex crimes and deviancy than it is to stop violent crimes.

If you accept those ideas as fact, then keeping people from seeing naked bodies in a video game is more important than keeping people from being exposed to violence.

IMO, it's idiocy, but it's important to understand the other side's position.

Re:Changing the rating

[HoboMaster]

The real problem here is that from what I've seen, deviant sexual tendencies are more common in people who were raised in a more puritanical manner. The guys I know who have a lot of sexual experience and were exposed to that sort of thing early are fairly normal, whereas the guys I know that were kept away from that sort of thing have some really f-ed up tastes.

You can learn a lot about people by finding their pron collection.

Re:Changing the rating

[jandrese]

Eh, lots of games have female antagonists. Even in Return to Castle Wolfensten there were those leather wearing female SS troops that were probably the hardest enemy to deal with in the game. Lots of times they're even scantily clad.

Of course if their butt or a nipple were showing, then it'd be mass outrage from the very vocal minorty who always complain about this stuff.

Re:Changing the rating

[LWATCDR]

Actually they said that scenes of torture and the blood and gore content where also higher than the submitter claimed.
I don't understand the flack over this. The game isn't banned it's rating was just changed. Those ratings are voluntary and are not enforced by law.
It isn't even like alcohol and cigarettes. A store can choose to sell pretty much any game to anyone. No will get fined or go to jail for it.
It's not like they are banning it.
Unlike here http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/347/eu.shtml or here http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1596751 it isn't government enforced like here http://www.caslon.com.au/censorshipguide17.htm
or like this move to censor internet video http://www.indexonline.org/en/indexindex/articles/ 2005/3/european-union-official-papers-offer-plans- t.shtml
Over all I don't see any reason to get all worked up over this.

Re:Changing the rating

[blueskies]

I'm confused.

What does sex content have to do with sex crimes against women? Does that mean women who see sex content commit crimes against women too?

Most if not all sex crimes are violent crimes dealing with power and domination.

Re:Changing the rating

[Surt]

What does pornography have to do with sex crimes against women? The link is unclear, but studies have found links between levels of pornography consumption and sex crimes, and other studies have found that pornography has a significant addictive quality. It's not hard to see how people jump to the conclusion that pornography causes sex crimes. Though it's true the link is unproven, the statistical associations are scary enough that some people figure why take chances, just put every ban possible on pornography.

Re:Changing the rating

[bagsc]

I think seeing a rendered boob is less commercially viable than rendered killing - since really seeing real boobs are significantly more rewarding than really killing real people. Thus, its not worth the effort to fight the ESRB over petty things like an M rating no one will ever care about.

Re:Changing the rating

[Bezben]

I wonder how they come up with conclusions like that. Do they actually poll people in prison who have committed the crimes? Or do they hear about content in a popular media they don't understand and blame that? Rise in game popularity, and rise in sexual assault, they must be linked... Except, gaming is still really a minority when it comes to media. If it were me, I'd be looking at the music industry and tv. There's certainly been a rise in the amount of barely clothed teenage girls girating on every "music" video they play and advertise in an almost subliminal brainwashing way. Oh, but wait, it can't be them, cause they buy the laws...

Re:Changing the rating

[Koiu Lpoi]

These people ever stop and think that maybe sex crimes are as bad as they are because of a culture where sex is supressed?

Are they worse here than in Europe? I don't know. It'd be intersting to find out.

Re:Changing the rating

[blueskies]

You are missing the point.

The OP was trying to find a reason why people are more alarmed by sexual content then violent content.

There are studies that try to establish a correlation between exposure to violent content and violent behavior just like what you are saying. Shouldn't we be much more alarmed by violent behavior? These "pornographic studies" don't have any more weight then the studies about violent content. In fact, I'd be willing to wager the pornographic studies have less to do with porn and more with treating women poorly or with violence. I don't believe simple nudity in a game would provoke the same reaction as gonzo porn or game violence.

Re:Changing the rating

[Surt]

I don't think I'm missing the point (but who knows, maybe I am). I think that given the rate of sex crimes is higher than the rate of non-sex violent crimes, then if nudity in games == sex crimes, and violence in games == non-sex violent crimes, it would be reasonable to be more concerned about nudity than about violence. I believe this is a reason why (at least some) people are more alarmed by sex content than by violent content, with the other likely explanation being simply puritanism. And while you don't believe in-game nudity provokes a reaction like game violence, I think there are plenty of people who do believe just that, and those are the people whose concerns our lawmakers are trying to address. Finally, in response to your question of 'shouldn't we be much more alarmed with violent behavior?': I think this is debateable, as suggested above, particularly when considering that most if not all sex crimes are violent ones, and such crimes are much more common than non-sex related violent crime.

It's clearly reasonable to be concerned about sex content in games. There is science to suggest that such content may cause problems. The science is not solid, but clearly the area could use further study. But you don't have to wait for science to become irrefutable to become concerned, or to do something about it (think of the science behind the nicotine to cancer connection: do you not put warning labels on cigarettes just because the link to cancer isn't solidly proven yet?) The same can be said for violent content as well, and which you find more alarming or of greater concern probably depends on personal experience with crime, and of course familiarity with crime statistics.

Locked out content?

[AgentDib]

This is pretty interesting. The ESRB does not refute Bethesda's claims that the violence and gore was exactly what they had detailed, so this makes the violence and gore rationale an initial oversight by the ESRB and not a fault of Bethesda.

However, if the nude female images were present and simply "locked out" by Bethesda then we have pretty much the same story as the Hot Coffee incident. IMO the ESRB exists solely to enable parents to feel more confident about buying games for their children, and the idea that the ratings could be changed simply by "unlocking" something in the game does a lot to destroy this confidence.

Honestly, are either of these incidents really that different than if Nintendo were to implement nude characters in super mario bros 3 that was unlocked through an a-b-a-b-a-a-a code?

Re:Locked out content?

[SirTalon42]

"Honestly, are either of these incidents really that different than if Nintendo were to implement nude characters in super mario bros 3 that was unlocked through an a-b-a-b-a-a-a code?"

You don't get through the 'lockout' by entering a code, you get 'through' it by downloading a mod from the internet for that exact purpose. And that mod could of just as easily include new meshes/textures of nude body parts as 'unlock' the texture in oblivion (the texture is used for layering so that the armor will actually look somewhat correct)

Re:Locked out content?

[BuCKsWorld]

Honestly, are either of these incidents really that different than if Nintendo were to implement nude characters in super mario bros 3 that was unlocked through an a-b-a-b-a-a-a code?

Back in the day there was a game for Genesis (I forget the name) that had a code that let you see brief nudity. It was by Naughty Dog, and if you held down certain buttons as the Genesis was turned on, the Naughty Dog logo would be replaced by a picture of a topless woman. Pixelated cartoon boobs at their finest. That situation (and the one you describe) are much different from the Oblivion/Hot Coffee situations. There is no magic code to enter that shows you these nude models (or the "hot coffee" scene). You literally need to change the game files to see them. It's not something you're just going to come across in the course of the game. In fact, you can't. It's impossible without these "hacks" (or whatever term we're using for them now), which need to be downloaded and applied yourself.

If it really was a case of "Oh shit, I hit up up down down and everyone was naked all of a sudden", then I could see a justification for a lot of this. Much of it anymore seems like preemptive over-reaction as a cover-your-ass-just-incase move.


-Chris

Re:Locked out content?

[BaronHethorSamedi]

Honestly, are either of these incidents really that different than if Nintendo were to implement nude characters in super mario bros 3 that was unlocked through an a-b-a-b-a-a-a code?

Tried your lousy code. Nothing. Thanks for getting my hopes up.

Re:Locked out content?

[AgentDib]

Certainly the "real" answer is more involved parenting.

However, both the hot coffee and the oblivion mods can be done yourself without downloading anything from the internet. The patches are just executables that "punch in the codes" for you. If something exists in game through a developer easter egg, I think that is a fundamentally different scenario we are talking about then simply a modding community.

If the issue is whether the ESRB should be required to evaluate Easter Eggs, I guess I would have to say yes.

Re:Locked out content?

[Chowderbags]

The ESRB rated Metroid as E. Is this E material: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9b/Metr onosu-2.png ?

The ESRB also rated Super Metroid as E. Is this E either: http://www.metroid-eu.com/supermetroid_endings/sam usfront1.gif ?

If you want to say "oh, but those are only on for a few seconds", I say so what? You can see them over and over if you want. Sure, they aren't M rated by any stretch of the imagination, but they're ok anyone 6 or older? If they were looking through the lens of today, I'm not sure they'd appreciate those.

Re:Locked out content?

[rcamera]

back in the day, there was a game for atari (custer's last stand) which showed nudity AND violence against women. there was no code for this content - it was the point of the game. can you imagine the media coverage if a remake of that were to be released?

Re:Locked out content?

[rcamera]

silly me - the game was called custer's revenge

Re:Locked out content?

[snuf23]

I just want to know how Samus stuffs all that hair in her helmet.

Re:Locked out content?

[Hoknor]

I want to say they are both entirely E rated unless while I was not looking it became illegal to take a six year old to a swimming pool or the beach and see a woman in a bikini.

Re:Locked out content?

[MachDelta]

Um, i'm not sure the Oblivion "nudity" qualifies as an easter egg. Its just the way they built the character models. They made baseline nude bodies with interchangable bits of clothing - usually various armors or robes - with the default being a character's underwear. All someone did with the mod is make the default = no bra, thus exposing the female characters "breasts". And I use breasts in quotations because they hardly qualify considering the skin texture used is unisex. Which is why people say the nipples look weird... they're male!

Anyways, I think theres a big difference between discovering a hidden mini-game, and discovering you can remove an object from a game for 'cheap porn'. Namely, premeditation. The ESRB is telling the whole industry that manslaughter = murder, and we're all going to suffer for it. :(

Re:Locked out content?

[lgw]

Neither the hot coffee mod nor this one were "Easter eggs". I'm not sure why people have difficulty grasping this concept. There is simply no way, none at all, no matter what, of accessing this content by playing the game. To access the hot coffee mod required patching the executable - no different in structure from patching the art files to add nudity.

In the case of Oblivion, the details aren't known yet, but it's possible that this is just a male skill mapped onto a female body, in which case the "topless female artwork" wasn't "on the DVD" at all. It's more likely IMO that the base female model is topless, and the game simply doesn't let you remove all the layers of clothing. That's certainly a sensible way to design a single-player game.

Again, these are not Easter eggs - the content is not available from within the game as the game was shipped.

Re:Locked out content?

[twistedsymphony]

Exactly, I think the point here is, it is in-fact MORE difficult to download and install the patch then it is to download pornography. Infact modding the game to show such things would take a conscience effort while stumbling across pornography on the internet might not be.

Basically the content might as well not even exist in the game because there are no codes or anything to access it. It's as if you wrote some code and commented it out, then someone went through uncommented it, recompiled it and blamed you for doing something wrong.

However after the GTA incident you'd think Bethesda would be more keen then to leave a file like that on the distributed disc. At least Crystal Dynamics fixed their nipple in the Lara Croft Title before that got out of hand.

Re:Locked out content?

[lgw]

you'd think Bethesda would be more keen then to leave a file like that on the distributed disc.

Apparantly this is just the skin/mesh from the male model used on the female model.

Re:Locked out content?

[Magic5Ball]

What if the nude textures are censored in game, which censorship is governed by user-modifiable settings?
http://compsimgames.about.com/od/thesims2downloads /qt/sims2nudepatch.htm

In the case of the Sims [2], the content is explicitly in the game...

Re:Locked out content?

[Chowderbags]

Last time I checked, it wasn't illegal to take 6 year olds to nudist camps either and they'll see women reveiling more than anything "hidden" in Oblivion.

Dude.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about you, but the idea of a fat naked plumber really makes me feel scared and want to run away. Please don't mention super mario bros 3 and nudity in the same sentence again.

Re:Dude.

[TommydCat]

If this bothers you so much, just think of what it could do to younger impressionable minds!

Re:Dude.

[bluemeep]

Naked Mario is the least of your problems. Think of what it could do to the little goombas!

Re:Dude.

[Burlap]

but... arnt goombas naked already?

Re:Dude.

[voice_of_all_reason]

To be fair, they could put Mario in a permanent goomba shoe for modesty, and I'd totally buy it.

I am the cutest invincible shoe rider ever! Mario! Mario! He's in the ULTRA green SHOOEEE!

Complicated Situation?

[Telastyn]

TV commercials around here at least after 10pm have been featuring a lot more sultry "friend finder" commercials on broadcast TV, and lightly censored 'girls gone wild' commercials on basic cable.

Far more offensive than pixellated boobies. Hell, the kids are likely on the internet in the first place to find out about the hack. If kids aren't already corrupted by all of the boobies [and worse!] on the internet, some scantly clad model isn't going to harm them.

Re:Complicated Situation?

[KazerSoza]

"....corrupted by all of the boobies...." Thats my kind of corruption! ;-)

Does anyone know the background?

[JensR]

I can't believe they intentionally put in a topless model. What I expect is this: The model was intended to be rendered together with a separate model covering the top, like additional pieces of armour that they want to run physics on, or a bra that they want to have changeable. By swapping the model with another one that doesn't have these additional features you see the base model. Sorry, but to emphasise it: We (=game developers) can't take responsibility for data files we didn't create, or for modifications to the game code that change object behaviour. So what about this disclaimer: Game Experience may change when using 3rd party modifications ? I mean, there is already the disclaimer Game Experience may change during online play, because nobody can control what other players in an online game say or do.

Re:Does anyone know the background?

[SirSlud]

I think thats a bit rash (I'm a game developer too.) If the content is in there (ie, fully rendered nipples), even if it should never be seen during normal program flow, I think the rating should take that into account. If its unlockable, it will eventually be accessible to the world at large.

The bigger issue at play here is why is everybody such a fucking prude. Its womans breasts, for crying out loud, what a freaking repressed society. Games should be rated for violence, and graphic sex, but boobies that can't be seen without a hack? Holy fuck, what is wrong with parents?!

Re:Does anyone know the background?

[brouski]

My understanding is it's the male bare chested texture laid on the female mesh.

Re:Does anyone know the background?

[plague3106]

Well for some reason you can't even say fart on the radio anymore, even though every 3 year old is running around saying it.

Re:Does anyone know the background?

[porcupine8]

If the model was just there for the shape/physics of things that go over it (bras, armor, whatever), why couldn't it just be all-white? I'm guessing that an all-white female form wouldn't spark much outrage, it'd be just like a store mannequin. You don't need to see the color of nipples when you're deciding how armor will fit over something. (And yes, some store mannequins have "nipples" - but they're not painted!)

(I think it's silly to slap an M rating on something for breasts - but I also think that in the current political climate game designers should really be more careful if they don't intend nudity.)

Re:Does anyone know the background?

[6ame633k]

I hope it was a shaved chest - or eewwwwww!!!!!

Re:Does anyone know the background?

[MachDelta]

Like the post just north of yours mentioned, they're male nipples. Since skin is skin, female nipples are to be hidden, and male nipples are to be seen, they just used the same texture for both sexes. Hence the lack of, well, lack of nipples.

Re:Does anyone know the background?

[steveo777]

I'm thinking if you have a charecter model with a fully rendered nipple sticking out of each breast, you likely are going for the sex appeal, not accuracy. If it isn't going to be seen, why waste time rendering it? Or at least why even show the discoloration? No, the ESRB isn't being prudish. They're just sticking to their decisions.

Re:Does anyone know the background?

[lgw]

As I understand it, Oblivion doesn't have "fully rendered nipples", it has odd-looking breasts with bumps that look right once you add clothing. Also the content is no more "unlockable" than adding a third-party naked skin is "unlockable". You can't get to the content through game play. Once you include "hings you can do by changing game files", anything is possible.

Re:Does anyone know the background?

[DragonWriter]

If the model was just there for the shape/physics of things that go over it (bras, armor, whatever), why couldn't it just be all-white?

My understanding is that it is designed so that different clothing, with different lines, which exposes different parts of it can be layered on top of the nude form, instead of making the visible skin part of the clothing.

Re:Does anyone know the background?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm thinking if you have a charecter model with a fully rendered nipple sticking out of each breast, you likely are going for the sex appeal, not accuracy.

Meshes are not textures. The female upper body mesh is a wireframe shape of a torso with two bumps on the front. There is no texture with female nipples -- when painting a texture on the female upper body mesh, the game just reuses the male upper body texture. This puts wrongly-shaped nipples in the wrong place, but they figured it wouldn't matter since they never render the females without clothing over top of them.

Then along came the (predictable) third-party hack that hides the clothing, and the rest is history.

This decision by the ESRB is knee-jerk, panicky, and clueless. They should reverse the decision and publicly apologize to Bethesda.

Re:Does anyone know the background?

[Anonymous Coward]

I saw the mod, and it's not explicit at all. in fact it looks like just as you described. don't people know that if you buy a barbie in the toy store, underneath the clothes there is a *shudder* naked plastic woman! yikes.

Re:Does anyone know the background?

[westlake]

Games should be rated for violence, and graphic sex, but boobies that can't be seen without a hack? Holy fuck, what is wrong with parents?!

Mark Twain pulled the first American print run of Huckleberry Finn after an anonymous engraver made pornographic changes in an illustration. Huck Finn's Obscene Illustration

30,000 pages to be snipped and replaced. However crude or funny the in-jokes stay in-house.

The problem isn't prudery. The problem is in pushing the limits of the voluntary ratings system until it collapses and the government takes over. You want to introduce nudity and sex into your game? Fine. But do it openly under an M or AO rating. Don't hide behind the excuse that adult content is accessible only through a mod.

Re:Does anyone know the background?

[porcupine8]

Ahh, that makes sense. Though they could still make it all flesh-colored with no nipples. Although if the post below is correct and someone used a male skin to fake a nude female... That's just beyond anyone's control and would be ridiculous for the ESRB to use for a rating.

Re:Does anyone know the background?

[blueskies]

"No, the ESRB isn't being prudish. They're just sticking to their decisions."

Changing the rating is "sticking to their decisions?"

It shouldn't even be an issue, because it is man nipples.

Re:Does anyone know the background?

[steveo777]

They didn't change their disision. They found content and changed the rating to what their guidelines would have allowed if they found it the first time.

Re:Does anyone know the background?

[blueskies]

How is "deciding" to re-rate it sticking to their "decision?"

Doesn't that mean they haven't stood by their original decision?

This will change things...

[krotkruton]

And I hope it erodes the ratings systems. If Oblivion gets an M rating for this nonsense, forget about what it means for Bethesda for a minute and think about what it says about the M rating? It sure changes the way I look at M rated games. Will this just shift all of the ratings up a level? If it does, then how much will these ratings mean to people if a game based on Sesame Street gets bumped up to a Teen rating because it depicts Oscar as homeless (or some better analogy that I can't think of, but you get the point)?

Re:This will change things...

[duke12aw]

barbie and ken are dating, that must mean that they have sex! give that game an M. who knows what they do when they are off the visible screen ingame.

This is getting crazy

[thebdj]

The next thing you know they will want to change any game where you can install custom skins to an 'M' rating simply because someone can download a custom model and have naked women everywhere. What I love throughout all this is that it isn't about violence (despite what the ESRB said) and solely about some "sexually explicit" content that by default is not accessible in the game. I guess I never realized how horribly ugly the female human form is...

While not necessarily right (and maybe not on point), it is absurd to think that the difference between 'T' and 'M' is going to make a difference in who buys these games. Now, the kids (I actually do not know any kids who play ES IV) just have to get their parents, who have shown total disregard for what their children are doing (see complaints about movie, television and game ratings...and the recent "myspace scare"), will blatantly ignore the ratings and purchase it anyway.

I would love to see some game makers stop using the ESRB all-together. Like the MPAA movie rating system, it is completely voluntary and even if a few places won't carry an un-rated game, I am sure plenty of legitimate video game retailers will be more then glad to sell such a game. Unfortunately, this probably will not happen because I would imagine that some of the larger retailers would be the ones refusing.

Re:This is getting crazy

[MerlynEmrys67]

Again - a subtle difference. The game SHIPPED with the skin, it was just a matter of renaming the file. I have no problem with the ESRBs descision here... it was undisclosed content (it was on the distribution media). I would have a HUGE problem is someone completely reskinned a game, and based on content that the publisher has NO control over - the game was re-rated...

Re:This is getting crazy

[plague3106]

I bet alot of games use this approach though, so that different clothing can more easily be applied to the model. Suddenly just about every 3d game goes to M because you could mode the clothes away??

Re:This is getting crazy

[6ame633k]

Maybe they needed a nude skin for character customization - just like in life - sometimes game characters are naked under their clothes. Anyway, this is waaaaay less offensive than Hot Coffee - I don't even see a comparison. Hot Coffee was straight up sex - which means at least one programmer and one animator was involved. Whereas changing skins in a game - anyone with photoshop and game dev. experience can do that. Excuse me, I gotta play my modded version of the Sims - they are all naked!!!

Re:This is getting crazy

[Zerth]

Big exception: it was the male skin. Guys' nipples are apparently ok, unless you badly wrap them on a female mesh.

Re:This is getting crazy

[Ahnteis]

"I would love to see some game makers stop using the ESRB all-together."

Bad idea. We have the ESRB to stave off the government from creating their own regulatory body.

Game should be rated M anyway -- it's got a lot of gore in it.

Re:This is getting crazy

[Anonymous Coward]

Bad idea. We have the ESRB to stave off the government from creating their own regulatory body.

This is the same crap going on in China; the government never has to actually censor anything because the private companies are all rushing to do it for them.

In what way would it be WORSE to have proper legal regulation chalengable through the courts with constitutional safeguards? How does an arbitrary body making up its own rules beat that?

Re:This is getting crazy

[Jedi Alec]

Again - a subtle difference. The game SHIPPED with the skin, it was just a matter of renaming the file. I have no problem with the ESRBs descision here... it was undisclosed content (it was on the distribution media).

No, it's not undisclosed content for crying out loud. It's layering a texture that happens to have nipples(because it's a male texture, and for some reason men are allowed to run around barechested whereas women are not) layered on top of the female body.

Now, if you're excuse me, some Daedric god just gave me instructions on how to assassinate 2 people in such a way that an entire village will start killing each other, which will make me a nice tidy profit...

Re:This is getting crazy

[DragonWriter]

We have the ESRB to stave off the government from creating their own regulatory body.

Funny, I thought that's why we had the First Amendment.

Re:This is getting crazy

[Criterion]

It is being judged differently than hot coffee. I seem to remember that hot coffee earned an AO rating, while this is getting an M.. which, IMO it deserved anyway due to the violence. Man I wish people would just use some logic. What is the deal, are you all 12yr olds that aren't going to be able to get the game since they changed the rating or what?

Re:This is getting crazy

[Koiu Lpoi]

I have a problem that the Xbox version was re-rated as well, but for "blood and violence". Sounds like a freaking excuse to me, not a legitimate reason.

Decent underwear

[tepples]

You can take a basic character model and layer different layers of clothing on top

Then why not put a sports bra or something on the basic character model?

Re:Decent underwear

[jkmullins]

By default, they do have a bra of sorts on that I believe is just part of the texture. It's a simple matter to change that to a continuous skin tone texture.

Re:Decent underwear

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

There is one, the titty-texture is a user created skin.

Re:Decent underwear

[plague3106]

Because maybe they want to allow a mod for really skimpy outfits, that a sports bra wouldn't make possible?

My god, its 2006, why is nudity even an issue in media?

Re:Decent underwear

[voice_of_all_reason]

Because that's one more layer being rendered. For every character on-screen. Every single frame.

The first rule of MMORPG is to conserve processing power. That means the code that gets used most often (combat and player body) needs to be as clean as possible.

Re:Decent underwear

[Jarlsberg]

I agree with you, but I'd like to point out that Oblivion is not an MMORPG. That's part of its allure to many people (myself included).

Re:Decent underwear

[Suddenly_Dead]

The bra is a clothing mesh that's overlayed on top of the (nude) body mesh/texture. That's what everyone is up in arms about, the body's texture already has the breasts painted on. Just remove the bra with a simple modification and you get polygon'd nudity.

Re:Decent underwear

[snuf23]

"Because that's one more layer being rendered."

No it isn't. You make the base texture with a painted on "bra" rather than nipples. It isn't an extra layer. This is exactly how the normal "naked" textures in WoW work - the nude textures were user creations for that game as well.

Re:Decent underwear

[voice_of_all_reason]

Um, yeah. What the hell was I thinking? :)

Still, that wouldn't have prevented this. As mentioned many other times already, the mod involves pasting a barechested male texture over the female body size. I'm sure the same thing could be done with any of the Resident Evil or Dynasty Warrior titles. Are they all to be relabelled "mature" now?

Re:Decent underwear

[Jaysyn]

Good distraction from all the shady stuff our government is into.

Jaysyn

Re:Decent underwear

[rikkards]

I'm sure the same thing could be done with any of the Resident Evil or Dynasty Warrior titles. Are they all to be relabelled "mature" now?
Or how about The Sims?
You can remove blurring effect and then all characters are nekkid.

Re:Decent underwear

[Oktober Sunset]

Duh, strapless dress, open back dress, can't have a sports bra under those. How come you nerds never consider fashion?

Re:Decent underwear

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the article. It was created by Bethesda, unlocked by simply renaming one file. No third party creation.

Re:Decent underwear

[_|()|\|]

the mod involves pasting a barechested male texture over the female body size

Are you sure that femaleupperbodynude.nif is a male texture?

Re:Decent underwear

[tepples]

It doesn't have to be a sports bra. Any bra-type undergarment integrated into the basic character model will do, as long as it hides enough cleavage. And in the time periods represented by these fantasy themed games, would a strapless dress be considered decent?

Re:Decent underwear

[DragonWriter]

And in the time periods represented by these fantasy themed games, would a strapless dress be considered decent?

Probably, though among the upper classes it would be rejected for reasons of fashion, and among the lower classes for reasons of impracticality. The obsessive (outward, at least) moralism on the Victorian Age was hardly typical of times farther in the past.

Re:Decent underwear

[Feanturi]

Then why not put a sports bra or something on the basic character model?

That is in fact what they did: femaleupperbody.nif is the end product of femaleupperbodynude.nif with a bra mesh permanently welded onto it, with the appropriate texture for the bra mapped to that area. Problem is they forgot to turf the nude one, which was no longer needed when the game was ready to ship. The nude one is not used when they have clothes overtop, as one might think that was why it was there, because of problems with the bra messing with the clothing, but no, it does not actually get used by the engine at all. The bottom has a similar mesh with perma-panties, however there is no corresponding nude mesh for that part. Damn.

Re:Decent underwear

[Feanturi]

As mentioned many other times already, the mod involves pasting a barechested male texture over the female body size.

Trust me, there is nothing male about textures\characters\imperial\female\upperbodyfemal e.dds which is what the nude mesh uses natively, with no modifications at all. The nude mesh simply has to be extracted from the .bsa file the game came with and renamed to replace the non-nude mesh. I am seeing that quite a few people posting to this topic have very different ideas about how this mod is done, so I'll lay it down for you:

There is a third-party program called tes4bsa. Its whole job is to unpack the game's art and sound files from the proprietary archive format they are in. That's all it does, it makes no changes to any of the content at all. It is an essential tool for making your own unique copies of objects for a mod you want to do, as you have to be able to browse to the nif file when making a new object. With Morrowind they gave you all the art files unpacked on the second CD. So this tes4bsa merely enables the tradtional means of modding this game, so that it is available again as we modders were used to with MW.

1. Download tes4bsa, and put it in the Data folder.

2. Run it to unpack the textures archive.

3. Navigate to Data\meshes\characters\_male (yes, it doesn't sound like there's females in here, but there are, don't ask me why)

4. Delete femaleupperbody.nif and rename femaleupperbodynude.nif to drop the word nude.

5. Play the game, find a dead woman (or, um, stalk and kill one) and loot her clothes. See?

Note that no textures were modified, or superimposed on anything, or even touched. No hacking out of mesh coordinates to remove the perma-bra that the default female characters actually use in-game. Just unpack the art files, delete one file and rename another. This content is not the result of any user input whatsoever.

I wonder if there is a connection: Just as many of us don't RTFA, we also seem to have a propensity for not TTFE (trying the fabulous experiment) before talking about it like we know what's happening. This is not a flame on anyone, just an observation.

Re:Decent underwear

[Feanturi]

Damn, I should have previewed, but step 2. should be extracting mesh archives not the textures, as you obviously need the meshes folder for step 4. Whoops.

Re:Decent underwear

[Traiklin]

Then I don't get what the big deal is, It's not like any of them know how to remove a Bra properly.

Re:Decent underwear

[Criterion]

Or even better, why not just not have nipples on it? All this hubbub about a couple square inches of female real estate.

I can guarantee that there are game devs out there now, that are makeing their lists and checking them twice as far as what unused artwork is shipping on their disks.

Re:Decent underwear

[Criterion]

"the titty-texture is a user created skin"

No, it's not.

Re:Decent underwear

[Koiu Lpoi]

Damn? Damn!? There is not a single beautiful person in all of Cyrodill. I would rather these women keep their underwear on, thank you much.

Re:Decent underwear

[BakaHoushi]

"The object of a President is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -Douglas Adams "...Oh, and titties. That's a GREAT way to draw attention, too." -Me

Re:Decent underwear

[Anonymous Coward]

Correction: It's mostly american media :-)

Re:Decent underwear

[snuf23]

Thanks for laying this out. This topic has been back and forth with posts saying "its the male texture renamed to the female" spouted and modded up. I haven't checked it personally, but it seems like the consensus is coming around that this texture was on the discs as shipped rather than added in.
Not that this really makes any of the uproar less silly than it already was, but I guess developers need to make sure they get rid of extra texture assests that aren't going to be used in the game or else face repurcussions.
Personally I'm more interested in the violence issue. Judging from people's descriptions the violence and gore should have garnered an M rating.

Can anybody corroborate this rumored explanation?

[trauma]

It's been said on a gaming forum I frequent that the content in question is in fact the texture for a bare *male* chest (complete with the standard-issue male nipples), which when intentionally misapplied to the female model via this mod results in a somewhat believable representation of a topless female.

Any truth to this? If so, it pretty much confirms the idiocy of the ESRB with regard to this whole situation.

I'm curious why World of Warcraft isn't R...

[Avillia]

When it handles clothing the exact same way.

Perhaps if we all slapped on 'Experience may change in online play' and then had the half a kilobyte nude skin streamed down to the client on every load, we wouldn't have to worry about the goddamned ESRB.

Re:I'm curious why World of Warcraft isn't R...

[Anonymous Coward]

The base image for female characters in WoW includes a bra and panties.

Re:I'm curious why World of Warcraft isn't R...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, if you play with the WoW model viewer ( a 3rd. party tool ), you'll find that the underwear can be made invisible. You will see an "anatomically incorrect" (no nipples, etc.) version of the character that doesn't include underwear in this mode.

This is technique is obviously swapped in when a character changes to clothing such as a backless dress (or the dreaded "woolies" legwear), which does exist in the game, so you don't see their undies. This seems very similar to what Oblivion uses the built in "topless" female for.

So basically, if you wanted to be extreme, yes you could rerate WoW as "M" if you really wanted.

Re:I'm curious why World of Warcraft isn't R...

[raodin]

The base textures in WoW don't include nipples. This seems to be the usual breaking point in the various media ratings systems.

Romero (of all people) misses the point entirely.

[Rob T Firefly]

From Romero's blog: "What's the point of this all this? That modders are now screwing up the industry they're supposed to be helping."

Change the old slogan to "John Romero is going to... bitch." He really seems to have missed the entire point of the issue, seeming to place blame on modders in general. Rather surprising, considering where he might be had "Doom" not been moddable and therefore immortal.

I can see it now....

[Burlap]

Sorry Dr Seuss, but we have to rate your new book M for sexual content, seems that some kid can go get a picture if a topless women, tape it in your book, and be exposed to nudity.

Re:I can see it now....

[Criterion]

And here we have yet another clueless loser getting his jollies by showing the world that he hasn't the first idea what the issue actually is.

Nudity vs Violence

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally I'd much rather my kid see nudity (and, in general, any legal behavior) than the illegal behavior (murders, assaults, etc) that occur in so many movies and games.

Is there any way of refaming the debate on the rating system so that legal activities (nudity at nude beaches; consentual sex) is OK, but illegal behavior (rapes, murders) gets the mature ratings?

Re:Nudity vs Violence

[irablum]

Mod Parent Up!!!

As a parent I just cannot condone our US societies attude of, "AAAAA, NOOO, STOP!!! KIDS CAN'T SEE TITTIES!!!!" I think its stupid and pointless.

Ira

So...

[jasen666]

If I create a patch that makes Minnie Mouse and Daisy Duck naked in a Disney game, will the ESRB re-label that game as "M" and force Disney to pull it off the shelves?
ESRB are morons.

Re:So...

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe that's what needs to happen. Some team of modders needs to go out and start making nude/porn patches for disney games. Get disney on the ESRB. Let them fight it out in court. Everyone wins

Re:So...

[Xytheril]

I think it's worth investigating.

The question everyone is asking is...

[Herkum01]

If I use Photoshop to give our our president a giant bare of woho's will they slap GW Bush with a mature rating?

Re:The question everyone is asking is...

[is as us Infinite]

Better yet, if you began a sketch comedy show and had your first skit be the president with a bunch of pig teats being suckled by his friends, would you get a mature rating?

Wait... maybe that's been done before...

Breasts must be kept secret!

[rben]

So much worry over kids seeing anatomy possessed by half of the population. It's about time we got over this puritanical BS.

Face it, any kid with access to the Internet will find a way to view naked women, if he/she so desires. Kids are smart. They have friends with printers. The secret is out, women and girls have different parts than boys do.

If you want to make sure your kids grow up to be well-adjusted, talk to them and explain things. Make sure they have plenty of parental attention and affection. Tell them they can always come to you and talk about things. Don't let kids learn all about sex from their peers.

Oh, and teach them that there are more important matters for people to worry about than whether or not electronic models have breasts.

Re:Breasts must be kept secret!

[gutnor]

I was always wondering, what about commercials in the US ? ( no trolling, genuine question )

Here in Europe ( France, Belgium at least ) you have tits in almost *every* commercial on TV and at whatever time of the day.

Tits sell Orange Juice,
Tits sell shampoo and soap
Tits sell cars, milk, washing powder, food, ...

I also wonder why a game becomes M-rated because you *can* see some breast *if* you *patch* the game (and even then, nothing is done to erotise the situation, if you walk naked, nobody even look at you or say something) and not because you can kill human being with you bare hands, become a cold blood killer, summon demons, ... No I don't really think it should be rated M but at least I could possibly understand the second reason.

Re:Breasts must be kept secret!

[HoboMaster]

Happy Juice!

Re:Breasts must be kept secret!

[Gandalf04]

I also wonder why a game becomes M-rated because you *can* see some breast *if* you *patch* the game (and even then, nothing is done to erotise the situation, if you walk naked, nobody even look at you or say something) and not because you can kill human being with you bare hands, become a cold blood killer, summon demons, ...

Puritanical/Biblical roots of the good ol' US of A. Slaughter of the injuns and other heathens/infidels/witches/gays/etc is ok in God's book, but a visible slice of female ankle skin is definitely not.

Re:Breasts must be kept secret!

[Haertchen]

***I was always wondering, what about commercials in the US ? ( no trolling, genuine question )***

They're pretty much held to the same standard as the video games. Significantly higher, in fact, because children can see them so easily. It's one of the big culture gaps across the Atlantic, but its pretty much consistent.

Most American's that I know who care about that sort of thing are typically completely shocked when they go to Europe.

***(and even then, nothing is done to erotise the situation, if you walk naked, nobody even look at you or say something)***

By American standards, walking around naked where a person of the opposite sex is likely to see *is* erotic (within single-sex groups, it typically isn't). That is also fairly consistent across the cultures, AFAIK. And if you were to walk around naked in public (male or female), somebody in the states would definitely say something. In fact, they'd probably call the police.

Why? Dunno. That's a question for another time.

Re:Breasts must be kept secret!

[Great Western Dragon]

Not only are the states puritanical, but it's gotten even worse since I was a kid. And that wasn't that long ago.

I remember watching National Geographic documentaries on PBS, the kind where they go off and film some African tribe where it never even occurrs to the women to cover their breasts. And thanks to National Geographic, kids could see big Black titties on the same channel broadcasting Sesame Street.

A few days ago I was watching the Discovery Channel, a cable channel. They had essentially the same documentary: Deepest Africa, topless natives.

And they blurred the tits.

I still say the uproar over Janet Jackson bearing a breast at the Superbowl wouldn't have been so big if she was white. Titties on wholesome family entertainment where huge men charge each other full on and there's an extremely good chance that someone will need to be carried off the field.

Re:Breasts must be kept secret!

[richlv]

Face it, any kid with access to the Internet will find a way to view naked women, if he/she so desires.

face it, any kid with access to real world will find a way to view naked women, if he/she so desires. some even don't stop at looking !! *horror*
place your bets, ladies & gentlemen - which year will usa have separate ghettos for the two sexes and only artifical reproduction ?

Re:Breasts must be kept secret!

[gutnor]

"And if you were to walk around naked in public (male or female)"

Well, in Europe you could be arested, unless if you are in an appropriate zone ( like some beach )

But I was refering in the game ;-) In Oblivion, what you wear outside only determine your armor class. ( or in very specific instances, the value of what you wear is important ). People talk to you with or without clothes. And there is no mini-game where sex is used. In fact sex in oblivion does not exist. All you get is to see your player and some other female player you have just kill topless.

Re:Breasts must be kept secret!

[DragonWriter]

I was always wondering, what about commercials in the US ? ( no trolling, genuine question ) Here in Europe ( France, Belgium at least ) you have tits in almost *every* commercial on TV and at whatever time of the day.

Here, they are covered tits. Oh, sometimes only slightly covered with a bikini. But if a nipple comes out its all OMG NUDITY! WILL SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN! MY EYES! MY EYES!

Re:Breasts must be kept secret!

[advance512]

The secret is out, women and girls have different parts than boys do.

No!!!

Re:Breasts must be kept secret!

[crazyjimmy]

When you consider the fact that people aren't upset by the boobies, but by the specific nipples themselves, I have to most definately disagree.

last I checked these hairy things on my chest were nipples too :D.

--Jimmy

Re:Breasts must be kept secret!

[Carewolf]

In Denmark nudity is legal. You would have to have to sex in public to get arrested. Then again if you actually tried to conceal your lovemaking it would still be legal and the police would only arrest you if you were gay (becaue the police is not as liberal as the law).

Re:Breasts must be kept secret!

[Koiu Lpoi]

Why? What part of the bible says "Thou shalt not look upon a womans bare breasts unless thou beist older than 18 cycles of the seasons"?

I can see this being partially from God giving Adam and Eve clothing... but still.

Re:Romero (of all people) misses the point entirel

[Mortice]

I figured another slashdotter would comment on that part of Romero's post.

Modders are not screwing the industry; if anything is in this case, (and I really think the whole thing is being blown out of proportion) it's the fact that a depiction of female anatomy which the majority of users will never see is enough to warrant a change in rating. It. Is. A. Nipple. Jesus.

Neither are modders under any obligation to "help the industry". Game studios may well release data in the hope that mods will help their game sell more, but I doubt that very many modders have as their primary motivation a desire to help the studio, and I doubt that anyone but the most blinkered suits really thinks they do. Except Romero, of course.

Oh no

[Konster]

Naked human beings in non-sexual settings in a video game.

Oh no. The end of our civilization is near.

And it won't be because of topless toons in some video game.

Teen: Let's Beat it To Death While We're At It

[SloppyElvis]

This topic is getting a bit tired, but the fact that this "retort" misses the greater issue is compelling.

1) Play Oblivion for 1 hour, you'll find zombies with their guts hanging out. The player is rewarded for bashing them MANY MANY times as they spray blood all over the walls. I don't see how Bethesda could have "hid" this from the ratings board - it shows up within minutes of play.

2) Talk to the various characters in the first town in the game, and you'll find out there's a "secret" guild that will let you in if you MURDER someone. In fact, you are very often rewarded for criminal activity in Oblivion. Going to jail is REQUIRED to complete at least one of the quests in the game (probably more, I don't know).

3) A nipple shows up in a downloadable mod, and OMG! change the rating to "Mature".

This isn't about Oblivion being rated "M", it's about the reason provided for the change. "More gore than initially disclosed" is ridiculous, because the game is chock full of gore and it's central to the gameplay itself. When the ESRB initially reviewed the game, did they even play it? My take is that Oblivion probably should've been rated "M" from the start. The game contains mature subject matter and it was no secret, plain and simple.

Are American Teens exposed to graphic violence through other means? Yes, certainly.

Are young children? I am reading the classic book, Farmer Boy, of the famed Little House on the Prarie series to my Kindergartner. In this book, the "older boys" in the school house gain reputation for "thrashing" teachers into submission with their fists. The replacement teacher is heralded for subdueing his attackers with a whip.

Does that make it a "good thing"(TM)? Nope. (see also: "Shikata ga nai")

Can a Teen process violence in entertainment and separate such depictions from the morality requisite to be a good citizen? Yes. "Mortal Combat" was a popular morality target in my teenage years, yet I never attempted a "Finishing Move" on any of my schoolmates, and I've grown up to be a good citizen by most accounts.

Can responsible, involved parents allow their brood to slash video game foes for fun? Yes. I enjoy such entertainment, and I'm sure my young'uns will too. Human beings are violent (see also: "history of civilization"). It'll be my decision to make concerning their maturity approaching such subject matter.

If my teen sees a booby, will all my hard parenting work unravel? God, I hope not. That would surely mean I'd done a terrible job educating my own on the birds and the bees. Believe it or not, I'd rather my kids look at boobies than bash skulls. Interest in sex is not unnatural (see also: "World Population").

ESRB claims the change is due to a lack of disclosure. Under normal circumstances, that would be an acceptable reason in my mind. However, the gratuitous and obvious violence in Oblivion calls into question the criteria by which the game was rated IN THE FIRST PLACE. The ESRB lacks credibility, and this debacle won't help that issue, that is certain.

Re:Teen: Let's Beat it To Death While We're At It

[6ame633k]

I havn't gone through the process in a while, but I am pretty sure the ESRB does not play the games. It is up to the developer to send the "most offensive" game footage for viewing (Via VCR or DVD) - so if that footage was omitted or gameplay added at the last minute they would not have seen it. If you consider how long it can take to play a game I doubt they have the resources to play through all the games that are submitted each year.

Re:Teen: Let's Beat it To Death While We're At It

[Anonymous Coward]

When I was working for Nintendo they required a complete play-through on VCR with all secret and bonus areas for submission to the ESRB. So if it takes several hours you'd submit several tapes, and I think you even had to show that the end of one tape matches the beginning of the next one.
So it could depend on how your publisher wants to handle it.

Re:Teen: Let's Beat it To Death While We're At It

[SloppyElvis]

I didn't know that.

It would be interesting to see the actual submission footage. It seems pretty clear that Bethesda wants to stay out of the fray on this political issue, so I doubt they'd leak it, but it would shed light on all of this for sure.

The resource problem is an interesting one. I'd wager that if they enlisted "general public reviewers" to preview the games prior to release they'd get an army of volunteers who'd do it just to get early copies of games. I realize software is generally not ready prior to release and things can get put in at the 11th hour, but perhaps it could help "normalize" the ratings by using a plurality of reviewiers.

OT Dr Seuss

[nb caffeine]

I'm pretty sure there won't be a new Dr. Seuss book, being that he (aka Theodor Geisel) died 15 years ago

Astounding

[voice_of_all_reason]

pull all of the current stock of the game to relabel

Congratulations. Short of airdropping copies of the game over each major american city, there is no other possible action that would ensure people previously fence-sitting on the original version of the game will go through considerable effort to obtain a "real" copy.

Re:Astounding

[Spooon69]

I believe the copies now are being pulled to relabel the rating, not the game content. The new beta patch already addresses the "nudity". So unless you really want to pay tons extra on eBay for a box without the extra sticker that says "M", I wouldn't bother hunting for the old copy of the game.

Re:Astounding

[voice_of_all_reason]

Yeah, but like idiot me who didn't read the whole summary, the idea of an "original copy" is going to resonate very strongly with the casual gamer who hasn't been paying attention.

Yay, it's friday!

GET IT STRAIGHT

[SmallFurryCreature]

Can we once and for all get it clear that the nudity IS in the game of oblivion from the start. The NUDE SKIN comes ON the DVD.

Geez, the john remero link gets it wrong as well.

Oblivion characters wear clothing. Far more so then in other games. The mesh of your character has other meshes on top wich form the clothing. Remove those meshes and voila, you got a naked character. Betsheda even included a skin for it.

The mesh is deformed (the tits look weird) because they are meant to be under clothes BUT it is there, naked titties. In the game as you buy it in the store.

It was NOT introduced.

When will people learn to read.

Re:GET IT STRAIGHT

[Anonymous Coward]

BUT it is there, naked titties. In the game as you buy it in the store.

No, it is not in the game.

It is on the game disk, but it is not in the game.

There is no way to see it in the game without modifying the game. Therefore, it is NOT IN THE GAME.

When will people learn to think.

By your logic, every bar in the country should be treated as a strip club, because those waitresses are naked. Um, like under their clothes. But they have naked skin and they're in the bar, and they might take those clothes off, see? If one of them got naked in the bar, it wouldn't have involved a naked girl coming into the bar from outside, the naked girl would have been in there all along, just wearing clothes. So all those waitresses should be treated as strippers, and the bars should be regulated as strip clubs. QED.

Re:GET IT STRAIGHT

[falcon5768]

sure the skins where there, but they wherent accessable IN game.

maybe you should read better before you comment on others reading abilitys.

Re:GET IT STRAIGHT

[Anonymous Coward]

For what it is worth, here in the Bay Area, you can go to strip clubs when you are 18. You can't go to a real bar until you are 21. Either way, you could play an M rated game.

HYPOCRACY

[Frobozz0]

You can hack and slash defenseless citizens, steal your way to financial independance, and support demon-like creatures to enslave mankind.

Seeing a pair of tits seems a bit trivial, yes?

To the hypocrites at the ESRB who seem to think violence is fine and nudity is a crime... rethink your policies, and rethink your hidden agendas. Nudity is not sex, which could be misconstrued as a mature theme. Every female on the planet has a vagina and breasts. Every male has a penis. These are anatomical features. Science. Fact. They are not the subversive agendas being pushed by conservatives to have us back in the social dark ages.

I am a player of Oblivion and I don't think for a second that any of the fantasy provided by this game is not enough for a 13 year old to grasp. By rating it mature, we're taking a modification to a game and making a big mountain out of a mole hill.

Let's boil this down, folks. I'd be much more worried about my 12 year old kid murding all the townfolk, supporting the daedric lords, playing out their virtual life as a vampric character. Not that there is anything wrong with the fantasy of any of those, but I'd want to make sure they understood the difference.

Re:HYPOCRACY

[geekoid]

Yur point are valid, but saying Violence is OK and nuddity is not OK is not HYPOCRISY.

*COUGHnotespellingCOUGH*

Re:HYPOCRACY

[Ibiwan]

"I'd be much more worried about my 12 year old kid ... playing out their virtual life as a vamp[i]ric character."

I can't believe it, I thought Slashdot had more advanced and open-minded thinkers... and here we have to listen to this HEMOPHOBE? Daedra, can't a porphyrically-challenged guy get a little affirmation around here?

Re:HYPOCRACY

[Criterion]

I don't think it's hypocracy at all. I think it was a simple mistake (well, maybe not that simple, but a mistake nevertheless). My feeling all along has been that the re-rating was mainly about the amount/level of gore that the ESRB claims not to have been aware of, and that the nipple incedent is just one more thing on top of that, but not the deciding factor. I think the media has been a big factor in making it seem like that is so. In fact, the 360 version is being re-rated also, and specifically due to gore since, at least atm everyone seems to actually believe ms's claim that it won't be modded.. hehe... that'll be so fun to watch when it happens. Note that was not an "if", but a "when".

So all this hoopla ya'll are stirring up about being re-rated due to nipples instead of violence are doing nothing but feeding that media hype machine that regurgitates it. Truth of the matter is that it's violence and gore that got the game re-rated, as told by the ESRB when they re-rated the 360 version.

It bugs me to no end that all you people that think you're so great and technically superior to the avg human being can't read and comprehend an article worth a shit. I mean, in the articles it says...

"Our raters re-reviewed the game along with the more extreme depictions of blood and gore that ESRB uncovered and felt that the game was deserving of a Mature rating. Though Bethesda may believe their submission was 'full, accurate and comprehensive,' our investigation proved otherwise, forcing us to correct what was found to be an inaccurate rating."

and...

"The content causing the ESRB to change the rating involves more detailed depictions of blood and gore than were considered in the original rating, as well as the presence of a locked-out art file or 'skin' that, if accessed through a third party modification to the PC version of the game, allows the user to play with topless versions of female characters,"

How to you get to the consensus shown here of being so prudely that the display of a nipple changes the rating rather than the gore, when it's quite clear in the articles that, to the ESRB it was indeed the ultra-violence that prompted the ratings change? I can see that this gets clouded a bit, as it's obvious the reporters of the article seem to be clouding the issue by hyping the nude bit, but that's obviously a much smaller issue than the violence when you actually read the words from the ESRB.

What needs to happen

[DorkusMasterus]

is that the ESRB has to convene and decide to have an extra rating modifier of some sort to not only describe the game as shipped, but to have a rating for "possible modification" and for "online gameplay".

Statements of this sort already exist in a small sentence on most online games, where they'll state "Online Gameplay Experience May Be Different" or something (I don't recall the exact wording.) But the point is that ESRB would be much more effective with something like this.

I don't think developers and publishers will have a problem with that rating, and the ESRB gets all the info they want out there to cover their butts. I mean, to have something like "ONR" for Online Content Not Rated or something so parents can see that you cannot strictly regulate what happens or is said or written during online play, or a "MNR" for Modifications Not Rated.

It takes care of every instance of these types of issues. Developers and Publishers can know that their game will be rated as "intended" and ESRB gets to put in notices regarding the possibility of (or known issues regarding) more "mature content" in online or modded play.

The rest of the world

[Anonymous Coward]

is laughing their ass off once more.

Coming soon (to the USA): War on virtual nipples.

The ESRB made a mistake in the first place.

[tmauer]

Having played the game for a while now I don't understand how this game was given a teen rating in the first place. The graphic nature of the violent content warranted the M rating from the beginning. Bethesda was apparently up front with the ESRB on how graphic the violence was in the game. So this is just the ESRB trying to cover its' ass.

As a parent this is the kind of game that I would want to know my teen was playing. I probably would not mind them playing it, but I would want to talk to them about it.

The whole naked mod thing is silly. If the logic they are using were to be followed then my web browser needs an AO rating. The ESRB should have just owned up to over looking the violence.

Where is the line?

[MrTester]

If user changes can cause a rating change, then doesnt every game with chat or VOIP now have a requirement to find a way to stop profane language unless they want a Mature rating?

If not, where is the difference?

mmmm Children.

[Kaenneth]

"Today we stike a blow against those who would allow our children to expose themselves to pornography. By requiring labotomys for all children at the age of 2, we can finally prevent them from being victims of the exploitation industry known as Media, not only will this step prevent them from being able to access pornography via brain implants or on the Internet, it will prevent them from content that describes nudity or violence, or comprehending adult language. While the previous eyeball removing and castration programs proved insufficent, we believe this is the ultimate solution to the problem of child exploitation."

"Children, we are not doing this 'to' you, we are doing it 'for' you."

I need the US Gov't to raise my kids!

[SloppyElvis]

Best quote from TFA: "the current rating system is drastically flawed and here is yet another reason why we need legislation to assist parents and protect children" [California Assemblyman Leland Yee].

That is exactly what I need for my kids, the US Gov't writing some helpful laws to this end. Perhaps they could help by also removing those extremely violent newscasts on the cable and network news outlets. The newspapers too. They are FILLED with reports of violence and war that are to the detriment of my children. Can you believe the SCHOOL in my hometown also teaches children about sometimes very gruesome and unsettling violence in history class, and I need laws to stop this from harming them. I can't do it all!

A good law to draft would be to transport all of my children to some sort of government educational facility, where they can learn to serve their country by putting down the violent people of the world through judicious use of lethal force. In this Utopian society, there would be no sex, because it is "dirty" and "very bad", and the law would provide men in jack boots to catch the teens "in the backseat trying to pick her locks", and they could "send them back to mother in a cardboard box".

I need help with the music out there these days too. Everyone knows the only good use for so-called "Heavy Metal" music is in psychological warfare.

As for games, we need wholesome, morality-based games. America's Army could teach my kids about responsible engagement, for instance. In that game, everyone plays as Americans! They only shoot "terrorist-looking" people, the way it should be.

And offensive movies should be re-cut. Take the terrific job done on "Brazil" (the love endures all ending). That movie was a real downer before some fine studio exec had it corrected.

My God!

[flyonthewall]

For crying out loud, these things are just pixelated tities....

States are starting to make the Victorian era look promiscuous

Bah!

Go ahead and blacken out the nipples in a patch

[Anonymous Coward]

Go ahead and blacken out the nipples in a patch, Bethesda, and I'll just as quickly download another user mod that re-adds the textures.

Breasts are perfectly natural, folks.

Why is nudity considered mature?

[misleb]

Seriously, small children not only see breasts every day, they often SUCK on them! What exactly are we protecting children from by censoring nudity (breasts in this case)? Now, censoring gratuitous sex I can almost understand, but simple nudity? Come on.

-matthew

Re:Why is nudity considered mature?

[Anonymous Coward]

small children? when were you weaned?

Re:Why is nudity considered mature?

[misleb]

From the wikipedia article on breast feeding:

Although some may find it controversial, some women breastfeed their offspring for as many as 3 to (rarely) 7 years from birth.

Even ignorning that, the question still stands, what are we protecting children from? What is it about nudity that might harm a child psychologically?

What is even more stupid is how we differential between bare skin and clothing when the clothing is skin tight. Few people have any problem with bathing suits, right? You take you kid to teh beach and there are men and women walking aroudn with barely a spandex stitch covering things. What else is there to see? A nipple? A butt crack? Some pubic hair! Oooo! The horror! Not that I necessarily WANT to see everyone naked, because I don't. But that is only because I find that most people look ugly without cloths on. It certainly isn't shameful or offensive. And it most certainly isn't a negative influence on a child.

-matthew

Re:Why is nudity considered mature?

[/dev/trash]

sicko!

Re:Why is nudity considered mature?

[Rakshasa Taisab]

During japanese class, a slightly plump (by european standards) guy sitting infront of me had an unconscious wardrobe malfunction. I was exposed to the visage of his butt crack. I must say, it is a trauma I would not wish upon any child.

Re:Why is nudity considered mature?

[Anonymous Coward]

So what you're saying is school should be rated Adults only?

why does that matter?

[Anonymous Coward]

The content is not in the game by default. True, you might be able to see a nipple or two if you mod the game, but then again anyone who knows enough to hack a game to see boobies, probably already knows where to go to find (better) porn.

Disconnection

[Tikiman]

According to the article, Bethesda does not deny that "mature" content was on the disks. From the ESRB:

"When we brought the topless female images to Bethesda Softworks' attention, they confirmed that the art file existed in a fully rendered form in the code on the game disc."

That is to say, the ESRB has been consistent about judging the content within the game itself, not the content added by modders. This is consistent with the stance taken on Grand Theft Auto. The issue at present is should content on a game disk not accessable by playing the game through normal means be subject to rating. Suppose a "Strawberry Shortcake" PC game had a hard-core porn movie on a subdirectory in the game disk, and suppose that content were not accessable through the course of playing that game. Through a 3rd party tool, in this case a standard movie player, this content can be viewed. Would you slap "E for Everyone" on the box of that game? Personally, I think it is reasonable to rate games based on all the provided content - the game itself, box art, and any content provided not explicitly part of the game itself.

Re:Disconnection

[DragonWriter]

That is to say, the ESRB has been consistent about judging the content within the game itself, not the content added by modders.

Consistently stupid. If it requires a modification to the game files, and is not accessible via gameplay, the experience is not part of the game as delivered. If you let your children play games on computers where they have access to change the installed files, well, you open it up to both rearranging existing content to change, substantially, the experience and to third-party content. If I can change a game file, I can replace it; if I can get the information on how to change a file, I can probably also get a replacement for it that will change the game even more. If you let your children change the game, the rating is meaningless. The ESRB is, if anything, doing parents a disservice by taking action which pretends that there is anything meaningful being done by rating the base game based on content which requires the ability to make changes that would enable you to alter every aspect of the game experience in order to access.

Re:Disconnection

[Anonymous Coward]

The art file was for the male character. The mod maps the male artwork onto the frame of a female character. While it is true that the art file existed, it did not exist with the intent that it be rendered on a female form.

In short, they were being disingenuous with their response. As were you.

Re:Disconnection

[Criterion]

I have seen no evidence that the file was for the male character. The only place I've seen it talked about was by people saying that they read somewhere that it was. Bethesda even admits there was the nude female texture (as that is what it was being referred to), and hasn't said anything about it being for the male. In fact, *I* read on a forum that it was because Bethesda had at first the idea to put some topless dancing girls in and that is where the texture originated. They later decided to pull that but didn't remove the texture. So I would think that seems more logical, therefore the mesh is NOT from a male.

Unreal Tournament nude content

[Anonymous Coward]

I discovered that there is nude content waiting to be enabled in unreal tournament 2004. You just have to change some bytes in a texture...maybe 20,000 or so...and suddenly the female character has a nude chest. Oddly, you can do this to the male characters too! Just by inserting some bytes, which represent skin tones, in the texture in a particular order the characters are suddenly nude.

This is just hard for me to believe that some data could be changed in a game and the character becomes nude! Why doesn't it reject my nude textures when I put the data in! I took a snapshot of my ass, converted it to a digital image, and put that data on the texture and now it shows my ass too! I am simply flabbergast over this! Epic needs to pull all of their games and remove the ability to display textures on meshes. Additionally, I believe the major graphics card manufacturers should be held liable for enabling the simulation of nudity simply by pushing some bytes to their graphics card.

Its just amazing what these people get away with. I've been mortally injured too! I intend to sue the camera manufacturer because it let me photograph my ass. I am also not happy with the mirror, not because it shows me nude, but because the reflection is offensive!

Going to happen more in the future

[Aero]

One of the extras on the Shrek DVD has someone talking about how they did it for that movie, because it made the movement of clothing over the characters' bodies as they moved more realistic. So somewhere in the depths of Dreamworks's render farm, there's a nude Princess Fiona mesh. (And a nude Shrek, and Farquaad, but only go there if that's what floats your boat...)

It's only a matter of time before most 3D models use the same technique, because the technology is there and it does make things look better. So what's a developer to do? The nude character mesh has to be stored somewhere in order to get the clothing overlaid onto it.

If it were up to me, I'd slap little pasties on the female nipples reading "THANX ESRB". Heck, put 'em on the male nipples too, just to be Fair'n'Balanced.

The real solution is for America to get over itself. A teenager will see more pokey nipples in the clothing stores flanking Gameslop in the mall, and with a lot less effort, than in half a dozen videogames. (When the heck did mannequins all get pokey nipples, by the way? I stopped going to malls for the last few years of my first marriage, and when I started up again a couple of years ago, all the female mannequins had been molded in very cold rooms, if you know what I mean...)

Re:Going to happen more in the future

[eggz128]

[...]somewhere in the depths of Dreamworks's render farm, there's a nude Princess Fiona mesh. (And a nude Shrek, and Farquaad, but only go there if that's what floats your boat...)

It's only a matter of time before most 3D models use the same technique, because the technology is there and it does make things look better. So what's a developer to do?

Not that I agree with the re-classification, but how about not texturing it in the first place?

Re:Going to happen more in the future

[DragonWriter]

You have to texture it if you are going to layer different shaped things over it and not have the visible skin be part of the outer layer.

Re:Going to happen more in the future

[eggz128]

You dont however have to draw the nipples, unless you plan to have them visible at some point.

Re:Going to happen more in the future

[PaganRitual]

It's a fantasy world, in fantasy worlds, women sometimes expose their breasts. Hell, in the REAL world, women sometimes expose their breasts. I guess you might need to 'mod' their underwear with a ten dollar bill, but it happens all the same.

Maybe they DID plan to have them visible at some point, maybe there was going to be a strip club (seriously, I mean, Morrowind had pole dancers), maybe some characters walked around home naked, maybe if you created a female character you could steal the bras from slain enemies, maybe they were going to account for the fact that some armour simply doesn't allow for a bra underneath, maybe they said that the models needed to be complete because of something that may be introduced in the future, or maybe the art guys were simply bored when they were created the models and decided they would add in nipples.

Regardless, they were drawn 'complete', and this whole thing is just a big fucking joke.

Somebody wake me up.

ESRB

[Anonymous Coward]

Would somebody MOD a Disney game or some other E game, make it get a M rating, and this whole thing will finally be seen as what it should be, silly.

Re:Can anybody corroborate this rumored explanatio

[Golthur]

This is more or less accurate - it's a generic texture, with nipples, that looks right on a male torso. Applied to a female torso, it's pretty ugly, and the nipples are in the wrong place. They just apply it to both anyway, and put a bra over the female upper body, so no one sees it. The "patch" just overrides the model for the female bra with, well, nothing.

I guess if you're a teenager who needs to see teh boobies, it'll work - but I don't think Bethesda meant to put in a nude female model.

Exactly what is this file?

[{tele}machus_*1]

I have heard conflicting accounts about this nude mesh. Some people insist that it is only accessible via a third-party modification (via adding a third-party created nude texture and mesh to replace the original files created by Bethesda). Other information indicates that the mesh is in the game's data directory, but in order to see it in the game you need to rename the file or something. Still other information indicates that there are separate meshes for underclothing and the body, which means that if the underclothing mesh is deleted, the body will appear "nude." Which is it?

Re:Exactly what is this file?

[Golthur]

Both, actually.

There's the shipped male-torso-with-nipple that is used on female bodies but covered with a bra. All that's needed to use this one is replace the bra texture with nothing; so, it's in the game, but it's not actually meant for female bodies (it's got everything in the wrong places).

Then, other modders have reskinned the female torso to make "proper" breasts. This requires installing a mod to override the textures.

Re:Exactly what is this file?

[FictionPimp]

Its the male skin. Which was ment to be topless. You can remove the bra and put it on the female model.

Re:Exactly what is this file?

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's what I've gleaned from reading the modder forums.

The mesh is in a graphics library file that is in a proprietary format. The game can get at it for rendering purposes (specifically when it needs to render the female torso with clothing that shows through parts where the "bra" usually is - low backed dresses, armor with gaps between the plates, etc.) but it is not part of the game files that have been documented for modding - for example, you can't alter these meshes in the official Oblivion Construction Kit.

Modders have complained about the lack of documentation for altering this graphics library and have reverse engineered it. The hack in question uses files that were extracted in this way. The files were extracted, altered (presumably to make the "bra" transparent), and then recompressed back into the original library format. In other words, this is a little more complicated than renaming a file. To build that file, someone had to hack and alter critical game elements. At which point, you might as well be downloading third party content; the mesh could have been replaced with pretty much anything.

For the record, the original mod is NOT sexy. The nipples are pale, small, and in entirely the wrong place because the male and female torso models use the same skin. I'm sure we don't have a bottomless mod yet because the "panties" are actually part of the standard texture and no one has gotten around to altering it yet. But we WILL see a much more saucy (read: realistic) full nude mod for Oblivion eventually. There are nude mods out there for games that weren't even meant to be modded.

Giants: Citizen Kabuto

[webrunner]

Anyone remember Giants: Citizen Kabuto? The Sea Reapers were female merwomen and in the overseas version they were topless. In the american version there was an added texture which censored it- but you just have to delete this file and suddenly there's nipples.

Why isn't Windows rated M?

[ePhil_One]

Since I can modify Windows to display pornographic materials just by downloading a pornagraphic image or inserting a X rated DVD, it seems clear the MS Windows should carry a M rating as well. They are trying to sneak around this by not submitting Windows for rating by the ESRB, why hasn't anyone called them on this?!?!?

Its a conspiracy I tell you!!

Re:Why isn't Windows rated M?

[DragonWriter]

Windows isn't rated M because it isn't rated by the ESRB, because it isn't entertainment software. In fact, its quite the opposite, Frustration software.

Re:Why isn't Windows rated M?

[Suddenly_Dead]

You ignored the part in my post where I said the texture was included in the game, right? (ie. my whole post)

Why would Microsoft submit Winders to the ESRB anyways?

Re:Why isn't Windows rated M?

[tepples]

Windows ... isn't entertainment software.

Solitaire? Minesweeper? Competitive MS Paint contests?

Re:Why isn't Windows rated M?

[Criterion]

Even if windows were rated the same way, I've certainly not seen any images of that sort that shipped with the OS, since that *is* the point, that the file in question was shipped on the game disk. It really has nothing to do with what a mod can or can't do, since that is beyond the control of the game dev. What ships on the disk is not.

Titties

[Karem Lore]

I have never heard of such pathetic simplisitc and prude rot as the ESRB are expressing.

Female nudity should not be discouraged (nor male), but the expression of that nudity should be. For example, a naked female breast mesh for a polygon should not be censored...As long as that mesh is not used on a women rubbing herself up and down a dancing pole in a club (a la Duke Nukem)...

Get a life an lay of sucking the black censor ink marker alright?

karem

Personally,

[Gannoc]

I need horrific violence _and_ exposed nipples to really jerk off properly. .. ..

Help me?

Re:Romero (of all people) misses the point entirel

[GPLDAN]

I'd mod you up if I wasn't going to respond. He goes on to say that all the game files will be encrypted. Yet another area he doesn't understand. This guy truly is non technical, and Carmack really was the brains, huh? Where does he think the symmetric decryption key will be? Maybe in the .exe? And if you obfuscate that using a fuzzer, then you just have to go get it from memory once it gets used.

That is not how game designers will respond, anyhow. It makes their development much harder for no real payback. Mods help. They'll just add language to the EULA that makes it a violation to modify or customize any element of the install directory. And they won't even do that - look how many copies of Unreal Tourney 2K4 that Red Orchestra sold, plus a lovely taste of the standalone product. Nobody is going to do that, they just need to get it straight in the courts and Romero needs to control his kneejerk idiocy. The guy is becoming Derek Smart.

The Real Reason

[Greyfox]

If you look at your guy, you've nowhere to carry all that stuff that you see when you open your inventory. There's only one possible place for all that stuff could be stashed, and given the frequency with which other characters put stuff in your or pull stuff out of you, I'm sure that's the real reason the game gets a 'M' rating.

Besides with all the corpses and stuff that goes *splat* when you kill it, it'd probably give kids under 10 nightmares to play it anyway. So really the ESRB is not only completely retarded for reclassifying it now due to a model you might be able to get to with a console command, but also completely retarded for not classifying it as "M" to begin with. No matter how you slice it, the ESRB is completely retarded (Can you tell I've been watching too much Mencia lately?)

Male texture, modded .esp

[cyko500]

The same texture is used in game for both the males and females. Why might you ask? So people don't have to fucking load an extra 256k texture in a game that is already taxing on current hardware. Men have nipples. Men don't wear bras. Therefore, texture has nipples, texture has no bra. They cover up the offending nipples by using MODELED bras. To repeat for the retarded: a separate model is used for the bra.

Someone modded the game to not render the bra model. Therefore, the man-nipples show. If you look at a screenshot, they are abnormally low, and oddly shaped because they were not designed to be female.

The game is designed to be open to modding anything you damn well please. Someone mods the game and Bethesda has to now re-rate the game? This is asinine.

Oh, that 'Re-rating'

[pNutz]

I was so optimistic. I thought that the brain-dead gaming media finally realized what a nonimmersive, repetitive, overhyped, dumbed-down, pseudo-rpg action game this really was, and changed their ratings from 11/10, 99.9999%, A+++=+=++=, to the more deserving 75-80% range.

But it's because they left boobie textures on the CD and now jesus is crying. So Joe and Hillary will bitch and sales will go up even more. Yay.

Here's looking forward to Bethsoft fucking up Fallout, too.

It's ironic...

[Sqweegee]

It's legal for women to go topless in my town (there was an equal rights legal battle a few years back) but a game mod can raise all sorts of "OMG think of the children!" BS. Oh... and before you all get excited about coming to visit, no women actually go topless, they just could if they wanted to.

Re:Can anybody corroborate this rumored explanatio

[Aladrin]

Having bothered to hack this up myself (before someone made a download available), I can say that the texture is named 'textures\characters\imperial\female\upperbodyfema le.dss'. There's no chance it was just a male texture placed on a female body.

On top of that, it's also a model with this texture attached to it, though this does also claim it's male, erroneously. 'meshes\characters\_male\femaleupperbody.nif'.

This was not done by accident, and is not a hack to apply a male texture to a female body.

I believe it probably WAS included by accident, though. It is never used in the game, not even as something to place under armor that covers everything.

Re:Can anybody corroborate this rumored explanatio

[some guy on slashdot]

Yep. If you actually poke around for a pic, you'll see that the nipples are too far down and to the outside of the breasts to be believable. Plus they aren't darkened, the way nipples are portrayed in most media. They definitely look like guy nipples on a girl's body.

I agree with someone further up who said that it really doesn't matter if this mesh was in the game originially or not. If you have to download a mod that extracts files from the locked-out portion of the game and renames them to put them into regular use, you might as well have downloaded a mod with a third-party topless skin. The only real difference is that this broke onto the scene early. To tell the truth, someone will probably come along later and create a topless skin that actually looks believable.

Not that kind of boob tube

[Kaseijin]

I was always wondering, what about commercials in the US ? ( no trolling, genuine question )

No breasts, if that's what you're asking, at least not on terrestrial broadcast.

What if the ESRB reaction is a good thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thinking about this more... What if this reaction of the ESRB is helping them to defend against people like Jack Thompson? Jack and his Cronies want to replace the ESRB with an organisation enforcing their opinion, or get censorship laws introduced. By having this swift reaction, no matter how stupid it is, the ESRB is letting some of the steam out of their opponents.

Childs Play

[the dark hero]

Videogames are still widely viewed as a child's toy. Would a parent give a minor a toy with anatomically correct body parts? No. The real problem is that parents use TV and video games to babysit their children. Now a game like Oblivion doesn't include nudity, but a parent should be proactive in their kids' hobbies enough so that the little snots don't go off finding mods that enable in-game nudity. Sadly, if a kid is doing that much he's probably already looking at pr0n.

Re:Childs Play

[Anonymous Coward]

Would a parent give a minor a toy with anatomically correct body parts?
 
Yeah, like a Barbie

Re:Childs Play

[Anonymous Coward]

When I was a kid, I stole my friend's sister's Barbie, painted it blue, and put it in my asshole. It was like Smurfette was massaging my prostate.

Bush behind it.

[Khaed]

This is obviously Bush's fault.

Re:Romero (of all people) misses the point entirel

[YAMSYAMSYAMS]

Oh, Romero you lovable inept has-been of a "game designer". When will you ever learn and change career? There are so many more out there to fail miserably at. Really, the guy is hilariously tragic.

The problem with this system

[Flyboy210]

The problem with what the ESRB is doing is that it is doing it to only a few games, and to these games it is giving them ratings which the developers cannot foresee in the end of their development. The big problem with what the ESRB is doing is that these supposedly "horrible" and "un-family-friendly" images are the result of third-party applications.

GTA? Hot coffee was the result of a file which you had to put into the game physically in order to access the content.

And it's the same case with Oblivion. In Morrowind, people made nude skins for it, and these even had modes that could be selected to discern to the player's liking.

The "Better Bodies" add-on I am thinking of had three choices:

1.Non-nude, which allows better underwear than the painted on "cloth diapers" originally offered.
2.Nude, which was full blown, anatomically correct nudity for both male and female characters.
3.Peanut Gallery, which was, for as it described it, "insecure teenage boys", only made females nude.

And even before, The Elder Scrolls 2: Daggerfall had partial nudity in both male and female characters, but no one complained because it didn't detract from gameplay. All you could see was a naked male and female chest, and that was when you took off the clothes off the players. And was there controversy over this tidbit of information? Not as I can see, but at that point of time (1996), the ESRB was probably not formed/in it's infancy.

So, if they want to do this in a fair fashion, either don't do it at all (which might be hard after laying the judgment upon GTA), or make sure that it is applied to all games.

To conclude, I can get fully anatomically correct nude female and male skins for The Sims 2 and have them engage in explicit sexual contact. Does this mean that we can make The Sims 2 M-rated? Can (sarcasm)our buddy Jack Thompson(/sarcasm) sue EA for all they are worth?

Moderato food for thought.

An analogy, if you will...

[Anonymous Coward]

1) I take my personal copy of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, and splice together the movie in such a way that creates sexual innuendo. Hey, all that sexual innuendo already existed in Snow White, it was just waiting to be unlocked!

2) I distribute my modded copy of Snow White on the Internet, and other individuals CHOOSE to download the modified copy rather than watching the ORIGINAL.

3) The ORIGINAL unmodified Snow White, that was released 70 years ago, suddenly becomes rated NC-17 !

4) Disney is at fault and should be condemned for corrupting the children! Parents now know not to waste their money on Disney's filth! Since Disney managed to sneak this one under the radar, maybe we should have our politicians reexamine the legitimacy of children's films as a whole?

What's worse, the ESRB already gave Bethesda their blessing, and is later deciding to reverse their own decision. This comes after Bethesda, based on ESRB's earlier blessing, has already gone forward and mass printed X-hundred-thousand copies of the game. If ESRB had made a REAL decision the first time, at least Bethesda would have had an opportunity to try to appease ESRB. Who rates the raters and holds them accountable for not standing by their ORIGINAL decision? I guess the ESRB is the only one who is allowed to MOD!

A woman's nipple isn't always porn.

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that seeing a woman's breast is considered offensive or "harmful to minors" is ridiculous. Breasts are not sexual organs. They are not genitalia. The infamous titty of Oblivion is not presented in a pornographic way, either.

So the people who are saving the kids from morally questionable media are the same people who think female breasts always equal pornography? Am I the only one seeing a little irony here?

Nipple Jesus

[Shai-kun]

I am interested and intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

When...

[GmAz]

I wonder when the ratings commity will realize that parents buy the games for kids. I don't now many 10 year olds that have $50 to go and blow every week or two. And guess what, kids still get the mature games they want because the parents just put the game in the cart and keep shopping. Those ratings don't affect many people because many people don't look at them.

PARENTS DEMAND THE SIMS TO BE RELABELLED

[Anonymous Coward]

When are they going to pull The Sims off the shelves? the nudity patch for that game has been around forever.

Business plan

[borgboy]

Step 1. buy photoshop, draw a nude form
Step 2. sue Adobe to oblivion!
Step 3. Profit!

Hmmm.... Hot Skooma mod?

[PeteyG]

Is there a Hot Skooma mod that I can use to watch pixelated nuble nipples jiggle?

The Terrible Secret of Breasts

[5n3ak3rp1mp]

We are the ESRB robots
We are here to protect you
We are the ESRB robots
We are here to protect you
We are the ESRB robots
We are here to protect you
We are here to protect you
From the terrible secret of breasts

I am the puritanical robot
I clothe and fine naked boobs
We are here to protect users
From the terrible secret of breasts

I am the American-parent robot
I push censored content down their wires
We are here to protect kids
From the terrible secret of breasts

Boobs have a terrible power
We are here to protect you
Boobs have a terrible power
Do you have naked boobs in your house?

We are here to protect you
Clothing is the answer
Humans must be clothed
They must never ever be naked

You are mistaken
Censoring is the answer
Humans must be censored
They must never ever be naked

I am better than the clothing robot
I am OK with naked showering and websurfing
I am better than the censoring robot
He is a communist muslim

The humans are protected
Humans are now safely bland
The humans are protected
Even though it is unnatural

We are the ESRB robots
We are here to protect you

Our mission is complete

how stupid....

[pxuongl]

should we also now require that people who go into malls be 18 and over because there are changing rooms where people take their clothes off, and we don't want a child to wander into one of those changing rooms?

putting this mod on is something that any teenager will do if he wants to.. and no rating is going to prevent it.

make it so he can't legally buy it in stores, and he'll just pirate it off the net... indirect state sponsored piracy?

Re:how stupid....

[geekoid]

"..should we also now require that people who go into malls be 18 and over "

So there is an up side! Sweet!

Karma

[Anonymous Coward]

As far as I am concerned this is simply Karma coming back to bite them in the ass for the Horse Armor/Orrery/Micropayments fiasco.

I don't feel sorry for them in the least.

Also,

It would also seem appropriate to quote PA on this issue.

Taken from here: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/03/20

Tycho: Did you check out the Video Game Voters Network?
Gabe: I don't do a lot of voting.
Tycho: You don't vote?

Tycho: You're a real patriot.
Gabe: I guess I don't see what the big deal is.
Tycho: The big deal is that the government is trying to regulate a form of expression. They're trying to ban the sale of certain games to minors.
Gabe: I'm 28.

Tycho: (Smacking forehead in frustration) I recognize that. Some people aren't.
Gabe: They should get older. It just takes time.

In summary,

I'm old. I don't give a crap if children are able to play Oblivion. In fact I wish all games were rated M. Especially online stuff (I realize Oblivion is single player only).

Ultimately most parents will just buy the game for their kid anyway so it doesn't really matter. The rating system is just a lame attempt to cater to lazy and ignorant parents. If they are so out of touch that they don't know what their kids are playing and must rely on a rating, their kids are already in big trouble.

I also don't like Bethseda. I think they are a bunch of crooks. $60+ for a game and they hold back pre-existing & promised content to charge for it later. It's sad though because they have some talented developers over there. The Micropayments fiasco was almost certainly created by some Marketing genius.

Nippleless Breasts

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh no. ESRB, please save our children from nippleless breasts. Whatever would we do if our children were allowed to see polygonal nippleless breasts. Surely, the world would be in chaos.

You Guys Just Don't Get It

[Anonymous Coward]

Hopefully, I won't get flamed too much for this, but knowing Slashdot, I probably will.

Of course the ESRB made the right decision. Those of you who complain that they are being "big brother" are right, they are. But that's their job! It's not stopping you freaks out there from downloading or buying all of the porn games you want, it is just letting parents like myself know what is included in the game - so I can keep my kids away from that smut. Some of us responsible parents actually care about our kids still these days. So do your crap - this isn't stopping it. Just let us have the info to make good decisions.

If the file is there, its there. The fact still remains - there is a pornographic image on the CD. Though it may be slightly more difficult to access, the publisher has put it there. End of story.

Re:You Guys Just Don't Get It

[BlackRookSix]

Oh, you'll get flamed. This is Slashdot, the last bastion of trolling on the net!*

The point people are trying to make is this: The files "exist", but not in the way you seem to understand them "existing". The files depict the form of the character's body, likely painted in flesh tones. This makes it so that changing your character's armor to "short sleeve" style shows lower and upper arms correctly. The way the game is programmed is 'realistic', in the idea that removing the upper armor meshes will reveal the character body form with nothing on it.

Now, the argument that you are seeing is people disagreeing that this game is "providing pornography", as asserted by the ESRB. By default, Oblivion shows the 'base' female torso as wearing a bikini. This "pornographic image on the CD" you are defending is actually a player going into the files on their harddrive and hacking out that bikini top. You can see this yourself if you own the game.

Don't confuse the situation here just because some of the trolling commentary on the subject is just that, trolling. The Fact of the Matter is that the ESRB is forcing a game company to reclassify a game rating (which will definately hurt their sales) because the players are playing the game in a way that was not intended by the designers.

Given this information, and endangering this post as being seen as a troll: I recommend that you get the facts for yourself before taking sides on any issue. Doing so is simply responsible parenting. I am sure in your young years, had your parents made decisions based on misinformation, that you would demand they get the whole story?

* No, it's not true, but almost.

I think it's just a scapegoat.

[Nazo-San]

First, somehow people are still getting this wrong. This was NOT created by a third party in any manner. The content exists already inside the data archives for the game. They created it, then later renamed it so it wouldn't be used, but, they still packed it in with the rest of the data. They left in a bunch of other junk that isn't supposed to be used as well, but, most of it is just testing stuff. Since they created the actual data, according to the article, ESRB's recent policy is that if it's inside the game itself and simply unlockable (whether by third party mod or not) then the game should be rated based on the fact that it IS in the game in an easily accessable manner. I think the theory here is that it might be easier for a parent or blocking utility (like CyberNanny or whatever the heck it's called) to stop a child from getting a mod that adds in content from scratch, most probably by catching the sort of site such a thing would be on. A simple thing like this where all one has to do is extract and rename a single file is almost impossible to stop. Therefore, it's so easily accessable it may just as well be in there. The theory may not be 100% sound, but, it does have a reasonable basis.

That said, I have had this game a while and I have the definite impression that Bethesda started out creating a realistic enough violent game to deserve the M rating for blood/etc. I kind of wonder if you could even hack off limbs or something in an alpha version since it seems like the system could allow it. What I think is that Bethesda realized that since they had decided to target XBox360 users first and foremost, they'd be missing out on the large younger audience that gravitates more towards consoles (yes, adults do use consoles a LOT, but, you get more younger people using consoles than you get of the younger people on PC. Previously Bethesda only cared about PC, so no big deal, but, this time they decided to make a console game -- which, incidentally, us PC users got lucky enough to get a crappy port of.) ESRB's changed rating doesn't just mean they have to pull them off the shelves and all, more importantly it means they loose a huge chunk of the crowds they wanted to target. The fact is, I think that they did the absolute MINIMUM required to get the game down to meeting ESRB's requirements for a T rating toning down the blood and violence just enough to meet those needs, and possibly they intended to leave the mesh labeled female_nude in there at first, but, when they switched to a T audience they had to remove it (so did so in the cheapest manner possible, a simple rename and replace with a copy where they tossed in an underwear texture.) I personally think ESRB might be pushing this so hard mainly just due to the fact that the game really honestly does deserve a M rating with all the violence and freedom to, for example, walk up and randomly kill someone then drag their body down the street. If it weren't for all this, I'd bet ESRB wouldn't be pushing so hard over something that still does have to be unlocked via a third party tool or mod.

Re:I think it's just a scapegoat.

[Nazo-San]

You know, I just realized something. You can actually change the data for the races in the construction set. If you knew the exact filename (can probably be found with a hex edit,) you could place a dummy file in the location it expects, then switch the model in the construction set and delete the dummy file so it will once again use the internal copy inside the archive. I've done this for switching a model for a chair (the portable chair mod uses a model of a plate for the drop item, which just seems silly,) but, I'm willing to bet that someone with the patience could do the same thing there.

So, now that I think about it more, ESRB's case has a little more strength behind it than I thought. You can do it with all first party stuff. The game itself and the construction set that you can get for free for it on their site are probably all you need. In theory, it should be possible to do it without any third party modifications whatsoever.

Someone with more patience for such things can feel free to test. Perhaps I'm wrong, but, it looks like it can be done to me.

Other media

[Oxen]

In related news, it has recently been discovered by hackers that one is able to play with a "nude skin" for Barbie doll, merely by removing her clothes. While Mattel claims that the nude Barbie is only viewable after alteration by the end user, the Consumer Product Safety Commission insists while hidden, the nude Barbie is contained in the product as shipped.

seriously...

[azakem]

All views on the video games rating system aside, who was the idiot that allowed this material to remain in the commercial shipment of the software? Don't they read the news? Did they somehow miss that whole "hot coffee" debacle, despite its appearance on every major US news network? What the hell did they expect to happen when someone inevitably discovered a way to access the questionable material?

Re:seriously...

[geekoid]

Bethesda has released topless women in other games as well. It's a thing...

Big Fucking Surprise...

[greymond]

Seriously, you'd think after seeing what GTA went through a couple years ago gaming companies would realize that if someone can figure out a way to access nude pixels from your game (and they will) then you will get slapped with a Mature rating.

GG Noobs.

What action can I/we take?

[frostband]

The ESRB re-rated GTA:SA and I said nothing.
They have now re-rated my new favorite game, Oblivion. For both GTA:SA and Oblivion, I purchased the games because I wanted to support their hard work (as I have done for all of the games I enjoy). I hate to see them being hurt as they are.
I just sent a message to the ESRB even though I know that will do little.

I hate to stand by and do nothing. What can I/we do to get the ESRB to rethink how (and why) they rate these games?

What a coincidence!

[geekoid]

My Porn name was Nipple Jesus.

Only if partially covered

[Sycraft-fu]

We are highly hypocritical about nudity and sex in the US. We love sexy women, there is no question, and there's lots of active encouragement for women to look good and to show off their good looks. However nudity is banned on public airwaves. However nudity is basically only total expoure of brests or genetals. Anything less is just fine. Thong bikini? No problem at all. Naked woman in the shower with camera panned just to the tops of her brests? Also ok.

It's just one of those odd cultural taboos. We like sex and we know we like sex, but there's a line that when it gets crossed, people freak the fuck out. Of course many of these are the same people that enjoy pronography privately, even if they refsue to admit it to others.

I can't give you any single reason, there's a lot of speculation as to why, but it simply is how US culture functions. One of those odd cultural quirks you just deal with.

Romero has lost it.

[mrmeval]

Romero is full of *ht. Modding a game to have porn in it is the same as editing a movie and putting porn in it.

They better Run!

[Anonymous Coward]

They better Run!

Ok off topic but

[Sycraft-fu]

On the subject of America's Army, it's designed for Army recruting, training and propaganda (stated prupose) and part of that is some realism. Well, in the Army's wargames, you actually always do play the Army. That's how it works. You either fight other Armies in mock battles, or you fight "OPFOR", the Army's professional bad guys. They are military units who's job is play the enemy on the battle field in training.

So it's a fairly accurate training sim, in terms of form, while still keeping fun. The whole "you are always the Army" thing is how you can actually expect to find it in the Army. They don't just randomly assign guys to OPFOR duty, it's a pretty elite group in general. Well in teh case of the game, it's much easier and technicly feasable ot just make each side look like the Army to itself and OPFOR to the other guys.

Debate has been won!

[Anonymous Coward]

This debate has already been won by a commenter at Kotaku's "Romero to Modders: You Suck":

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/john-romero/romero-to -modders-you-suck-171986.php#c120385

Enjoy. :)

Thanks man !

[LordPixie]

Thanks a bunch for posting that. Before your post, the grandparent's comments seemed like the most retarded, irrational thing I've ever heard. While your rephrasing did nothing for the idiocy of the position, at least now there's a chain of logic. Well, chain of unfounded assumptions. You know what I mean. Regardless, you're very right. It's important to understand the other side's opinion. Thanks for helping me do that. --LordPixie

Go rent The Hills Have Eyes (original version)

[Anonymous Coward]

I watched that movie with my grandpa and grandma back in (I think 1974-76) Anyway I was like 11 years old. I didn't have nightmares. I grew up fine. What the hell is wrong with the kids growing up these days is that the censorship /censorshit treats them like fucking little panty waist pansies, with their constant bombardment of fuzzy lil-soft cartoon characters to the entire game and video industry being rated.

Mom and dad are at fault too. Their so god damned brainwashed by government propaganda now.
Let em play with fireworks, skyrockets, firecrackers in a bucket with a can. Straight gunpowder. Let them get their hands burned! wtf! They need to know that fire is HOT GODAMNIT!

Take em out hunting with guns, teach em how to clean a deer. How to survive. HOW TO READ A FUCKIN MAP!!!

Show em some video of Iraq. (Oh wait, there is no video)

Buy em a pack of smokes. Drink a beer with em. Show them what marijuana is.

Make sure they understand what reality is. (not that crap on tv)

People are so fucking stupid these days, they don't even know how to protect themselves, they don't even know what the constitution and bill of rights are.

This has fucking got to stop!

MOD PARENT UP!!!!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

that gave me the biggest laugh in a long time

Bethsheda's Fault

[Anonymous Coward]

At first I thought this was total bullshit, but now I have found out the rest of the story. The nude art is in the game files. Somebody snuck that shit in, and now the company has to pay for it. Rightfully so. When the hell does this shit stop with game designers? Sure alot of folks think this is harmless, but don't you remember one of those RPG's like Baldur's Gate about 6 years where somebody in programming snuck in a virus in the installer, and there was that other game where when you uninstalled it, it erased your hard drive... This kind of shit really needs to be caught by QA before it's released and those employees who do this shit need to be sued to oblivion for screwing over their company.

ESRB Lied - Flat Out

[Enderandrew]

First they say the new rating is due to violence, and now they say it is due to the nudity. The odd thing is that the nudity (which doesn't even have nipples) is not available by any means on the 360 copies of the game, and yet the 360 copies are being pulled off store shelves. Which is it?

Why all the fuss?

[Anonymous Coward]

OMG, not... not NIPPLES!!!

I'm coming in late, and I sound like Flamebait...

[nugneant]

...but look.

The people these ratings laws are designed for are fucking stupid. Look around you. Your 13 year old friends probably played Mortal Kombat, right? DOOM, tons of fighting games, some R rated movies... and how many of them are killers?

I played DOOM when I was, let's see... 12. Has it messed me up for life? Other than that I'm up at 2 in the morning posting about it to Slashdot, no, I can't say that it has.

So. These people don't know themselves. They don't know their kids. They don't trust humanity. They are, in the words of Frank Zappa, Big Stupid.

And the problem with bending over for Big Stupid is that Big Stupid is never happy. Their distrust of humanity runs infinitely deep, and they will always ask for something more. Something bigger. Something should be done - to help the CHILDREN!!. Every Big Stupid retard overflows with smug self-satisfaction - it's the QED of retard debate.

And anyway, the ESRB was created in panic and fear during the MK days - much like, oh, the PATRIOT Act. And laws and institutions that are created in a panicked, stupid uproar, as far as I can figure, are always destined to fail. The ESRB, the PATRIOT Act, the Hays Office (created during the wake of the Fatty Arbuckle sex scandal, basically sanitized all movies from the mid 1930s up until the 60s), Prohibition, contraception legislation - all created from fear. Fear of angry parents (who would hurt the videogame industry... how? Oh, by denying a few sales... sort of... uh... like what they're doing now?). Fear of TERRORISTS. Fear of looking scandalous. Fear of being scandalous. Fear of the Lord God in Heaven.

Since we can say "stop making laws that are merely reactions to fear" until we're blue in the face and nothing will change, how about something like... oh, how about attack these constructions (the ESRB, RIAA, what have you) not because they're stupid (because stupid is very, very hard to objectively ram home), but because they're un-American, un-Christian (hello, tolerance?), un-profitable, un-necessary, and finally, a hazard to our continued survival.

Violence on a computer screen harms no child.

So why regulate it? Fact is that the parents who are truly upset about this are already the type who keep Little Johnny free from TV, Nintendo, flouride, evolution, and sugary cereals, and are perfectly used to micro-managing. Then you have a large army of "WELL, THIS IS THE RIGHT PRINCIPLE!!" morons who are equally harmful to society - it sounds good to them, it sounds like something nice, something that should be done! :) This group, in the end, is pretty much blind and unaware of what their kid does, and the most recent generation still hasn't realized that little Albert the Straight-A Accountant (pride and joy of the family) spent his high school years playing Giant Buckets of Blood and Guns, in between watching Attack of the Boob Creatures IV. And finally, there's the majority of educated America, who doesn't give a shit if Ralphie buys Duke Nukem Touches the Boob IV, because in between bouts of this, the kid's nutured and fearless mind seeks out Dickens and Proust.

The ESRB is set up to protect the first group, with the nod and Positive Thoughts of the second group. And it's a fucking retarded disaster.

(Devil's Advocate: The suggestable, likely superstitious child that would be harmed from violence on a computer screen (harmed = affected beyond tears and the urge to look away) is a walking schizophrenic time-bomb anyway, and there comes a point where you learn that, sadly, nothing can be done to help - lest we all live in fear and subject every instance of our existance to the kid who can send us all to the cornfield.)

Anyway. I just needed to get that off my chest, I like the words I used, and so-- (one minute later) --and good lord I'm so glad I use Firefox - somehow I navigated away from this rant (possibly a bug? It happens in IE t

Which came first

[Anonymous Coward]

(pardon the pun)

Are people more likely to be sex offenders more likely to buy porn, or is the access to more porn causing more sex crimes?

Eeeeewww!

[Anonymous Coward]

Man-boobs!

I concur with the rating! ;-)

NippleMod!

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that it's time that the OSS community stopped whatever they're doing and focused on creating an automated universal naked-breast-adder-plugin for all platforms.

Or maybe I just want to see FreeCell get rated M... either way.

The whole idea is quite possibly

[Anonymous Coward]

The most insane thing I can think of.

Not only are the characters in the game NOT REAL the offending boobies are pixel images so what.. if I create a fat bloke with bitchtits am I going to turn into some sex crazed lunatic? (sorry geekdom got me there first) What's okay about flat man digital nipples but not supposedly female ones?

The real problem I have with this is the fact YOU HAVE TO MOD THE DAMN GAME! I don't care what content is in the disc without changing a the game in complicated ways (i.e., not checking the "show me the boobies" button in the video menu) there is no way a large portion of gamers will ever see this! Not to mention console gamers, sorry no digi boobs for you!

This really leaves the worrying notion that ANY third party created content could cause a game to be shelved.. I think I read the female chest model uses the male texture hence the nipples, in that case assuming the female character was chest texture less under the bra, but I used the male texture... would this not be the same to the ESRB? All I'd be doing is changing game content not adding anything else.

All I can say is I'm glad I live outside the US where female sex organs are more socially acceptable than bloody violence. Still not seeing any mind.

NOT a male texture!!

[Criterion]

At least, if what I found is really what it appears to be...

http://elliottback.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2006/ 05/oblivion-nude-texture.jpg

Looks pretty female to me. I was getting tired of all the "it's a male upper body texture mapped to the female mesh" talk and decided to dig a little bit.. not that it took that much digging, but anyways, there it is, supposedly the base texture in question.

I can also "hack" a Barbie Doll

[popo]

to get naked -- and there's "NUDE FLESH" underneath!

I can even get a Barbie doll down on all fours.

Mature content?