Slashdot Mirror
FBI Foils Attack by Monitoring Chat Rooms
An anonymous reader writes "A planned terrorist attack on New York City was reportedly foiled by FBI agents who monitored chat rooms frequented by extremists. Lebanese authorities captured an Al Qaeda member who confessed to the plot, and stated that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi had pledged financial and other support for the operation. Although the planning for the operation was not far along, according to U.S. officials, they had already been monitoring the plot for a year." From the article: "A government official with knowledge of the investigation said the alleged plot did focus on New York's transport system, but did not target the Holland Tunnel. New York senator Charles Schumer said: 'This is one instance where intelligence was on top of its game and discovered the plot when it was just in the talking phase.' The Holland Tunnel is protected not just by bedrock, but also by concrete and cast-iron steel. One counter-terrorism source told the Daily News it was doubtful a plot to blow it up would be feasible, saying huge amounts of explosives and a detailed knowledge of blast effect would be necessary."
What chat rooms do they hang out in? #osama or something?
Look, see? We are using all these new police state powers for something besides drug and intellectual property enforcement. Really!
I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
So, you want to convince intelligent people like those on slashdot that the FBI stopped people from around the world possibly funded by a dead guy to flood a bunch of businesses up hill by lurking in a chatroom?
Shit, if only they had WMDs and lived in one place, maybe we would just take over the country or something.
FUD.
More evidence of FUD from the article itself:
"There was nothing imminent, but it was being monitored for a long period of time," he said. "This is ongoing, that's why I've said nothing about it until now. It would have been better if this had not been disclosed."
A government official with knowledge of the investigation said the alleged plot did focus on New York's transport system, but did not target the Holland Tunnel.
New York senator Charles Schumer said: "This is one instance where intelligence was on top of its game and discovered the plot when it was just in the talking phase."
The Holland Tunnel is protected not just by bedrock, but also by concrete and cast-iron steel.
Who makes this shit up?
They were NOT going to attack the Holland Tunnel, but BTW, it is protected by bedrock, concrete, and cast-iron steel?
More confidence in their ignorance:
One counter-terrorism source told the Daily News it was doubtful a plot to blow it up would be feasible...
But the guy fessed up over a month ago without even being tortured! Now that is real progress!
I feel safer, don't you?
I love this country b/c it allows me to say things like, "This country is retarded" without fear of black helicopters and an SS-type goonsquad picing me up, but lately the three branches have made it so hard (to love them, not to say they're retarded.) I'm glad to have a reason to believe that someone is doing something right in those ivory towers the northeast. I wish we had more stories like this. (Well, not more stories, but more events like this to write stories about. If there were just more stories it would be meaningless.)
I'm no healthnut, but I'm interested: www.healthbolt.net
The government's watching. I'm glad they actually did something useful, though. There's been a lot of spying for the sake of privacy violation. It's nice to get results once in a while.
First post?
So, how much warrentless wiretapping and patriot act powers did it take to monitor a chat room?
Hmm...yeah.. that's what I thought.
One counter-terrorism source told the Daily News it was doubtful a plot to blow it up would be feasible, saying huge amounts of explosives and a detailed knowledge of blast effect would be necessary."
Not to worry, the New York Times will be publishing a how-to guide next week complete with tunnel schematics and rates of expansion for various explosives.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
That the government is not just data mining sites like MySpace and actually monitoring real threats.
-- Brought to you by Carl's JR
Chat rooms were around in 2001. Where was the FBI then? Oh, that's right, they were busy cracking down on kids sharing music.
This sounds more like some guys mouthing off rather than a real threat. The real players do not discuss their plans in chat rooms. It's like the group from Miami that was "trying to blow up the John Hancock Building". Turns out they're a bunch of small-time crooks and losers who ran into an FBI agent while blithering.
Al-queda used to have some competent people, and they might eventually get their act together for another big act of terrorism, but what we're seeing now are wannabee terrorists.
Call me cynical if you must but I am sure we will be getting more of the "Our system works!" in the run up to November.
Especially since the last announcement by the administration which turned out to not be AQ related, had no real plan or ability to carry it out.
Considering they found the guys on IRC its more likely they found a shower of idiots then actual terrorists.
... if terrorists were to blow up all the roads and bridges in New York City, they'd be doing everybody a favor.
Have you ever actually tried driving on them?
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
I think this is very dubious. They haven't arrested anyone ("The principal players are not in this country"), and only alluded to three or four people who "may" have Al Qaeda connections... To me it smells like PR to support the supposed "war on terror".
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
"New York senator Charles Schumer said: 'This is one instance where intelligence was on top of its game and discovered the plot when it was just in the talking phase.'"
Why didn't he call this an invasion of privacy?
James Taylor
(No, I'm not related. However, I am on the no-fly list)
Sounds a lot like the situation down in Miami a few weeks ago. The government really hyped a plot by several people to attack the Sears Tower. Turned out that those people had no more ability to blow up a firecracker than the Sears Tower. Now we get a similar story about a plan that (depending on who you listen to) either targeted a transportation target in New York or the Holland Tunnel specifically. I'd like to think that our government is on top of the situation but after the Sears Tower story and all the orange terror alerts before the last election, I don't. And that is bad. You'd like to think that our government has enough integrity to provide accurate information about terror threats to protect the public, but it doesn't.
Well, that wasn't very fair to the lebanese. The New York Times should find out what screen names the FBI uses in these chat rooms and publish it as a page 1 story. It is our right as citizens to know!
You've got to be kidding me. Timothy McVeigh used enough explosive to destroy a SOLID building in Kansas City. How much wout it take to destroy a tunnel? Remember folks, Gravity would work on the side of the explosives.
"Snatching defeat from the mouth of victory on a daily basis."
One counter-terrorism source told the Daily News it was doubtful a plot to blow it up would be feasible, saying huge amounts of explosives and a detailed knowledge of blast effect would be necessary.
Maybe the terrorists just need toAsk a Navy SEAL:
Dear Navy SEAL,
I am a happily married man with a warm and loving wife who is also my best friend. We've been together for 17 years and couldn't be happier. But lately she says she wants separate beds. I'm reeling! We're barely in our 40s, and in my mind separate sleeping is for seniors. Am I making too much of this? Help!
--Anxious In Andersonville
Dear Anxious,
Destroying a bridge might look easy in the movies, but remember: They're designed to withstand the immense shear-forces of wind and weather. Deploying an underwater M-32 satchel charge at the base of each load-bearing pylon looks like the answer, but it might not even shake a modern riveted steel highway or railroad bridge. Without delving into the complex language of the guerrilla combat engineer, the best advice I can give you is to forgo subtlety in favor of brute force: Put two satchel charges at each X-shaped trestle buck, and this should rob the bridge of any reinforcing strength and cause it to buckle nicely.
When you have nothing left to burn you must set yourself on fire
Osama69: We totally shoudl take dwon the stupid american infidles.
FBInformer: LOL!! yeah. Alah Ahkbar!
FBInformer: so you said you lived in... Chicago, right?
...that foiling this "plot" didn't involve playing "connect the dots" with the NSA's phone-call database or warrentless wiretaps.
Did they find them on AOL?
I'm glad to see that the US government is good at foiling plots from people who obviously are not professional terrorists. But I'm hoping they do just as good as job when the real deal shows up in town.
The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
While I appreciate getting articles like this I always wonder what's stopping extremists from reading it as well and knowing what not to do in the future. I'm not a lawyer but aren't there laws against helping people commit illegal acts? Mightn't this article fall under such a heading?
I've always pictured the color of OS zealotry as a sort of bright flamingo pinkish hue
You don't have to destroy the tunnels - just make them unusable for a few weeks. The economic effects would be massive.
OsamaBL: we're gonna bomb new york lol
alZaq: OMG no way hehehe
alZaq: when u gonna do that
OsamaBL: like totally next wk
KiLlThEiNfIdElZ: i wanna do it! i wanna do it!
OsamaBL: lol k u can go boom this time
KiLlThEiNfIdElZ: yay! allah akbar!
[OsamaBL has signed off]
[OsamaBL has entered the chatrom]
OsamaBL: soz this cave is crap for wireless
alZaq: lolz u need to get off comcast
Since you seem to be alarmingly confused as to the defintion of "public", here's a lot of detail around what parts of SWIFT were public.
Yeah it's on a right wing site, but I read Kos too and haven't seen anything this detailed on there.
If it was so public how come Belgian's own government didn't realize it was there?
So unless you can find some information countering facts raised there...
Oceania is no longer at war with Eurasia, Oceania is now at war with Eastasia!
Some people in a chat room discuss a "plot" straight out of a bad Sylvester Stallone movie are arrested and imprisoned? So, it's illegal to talk about bas Sylvester Stallone movies now? In retrospect, this may be a good thing but, I can't believe it is illegal!
No attempt was made. No bombs were built. Nothing physical happened. Some people in a chat room discussed a "plot" and that gets them imprisoned?????
I am surprised he did not go on to precisely estimate the amount of explosives needed and identify the specific point where the blast would be most effective. Most of these so-called experts cant keep their mouth shut once a media microphone is shoved in front of them.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
One year ago a number of explosions rocked the Tube in London. As you know, the tunnels weren't damaged for the most part. All that would happen (God forbid) if anyone tried to blow up a tunnel would be to cripple the traffic in Manhattan (which pretty bad as is) but it would take a lot of explosives to actually destroy a tunnel from within if it's a tube. Another example - Moscow Metro Feb 6, 2004, when an explosion happened in a packed rush-hour train. Also no damage to the tunnel. However, when some idiots were installing a billboard illegally above a metro tunnel (also in Moscow), they successfully managed to penetrate the tunnel using a pile that was being driven, right into a train that happened to be in the tunnel at that exact moment. Thankfully nobody was hurt in this incident. See this Pictures of the pile: here and here. View topside and another pic
-Palal
...what the smart terrorists are up to.
*Cough* Yeah right! Terrorists caught hanging out in a chat room plotting to blow up the world?
It's all a bit Team America isn't it? They expect us to believe this bollocks?
Obvious, transparrent propaganda. I'm ashamed to see Slashdot propagating it.
New York senator Charles Schumer said: 'This is one instance where intelligence was on top of its game and discovered the plot when it was just in the talking phase.'
<Lailaha> Dudez! WTF is that abu-ass-grab torture sh!tz?
<Iqbal> Totally.
<Lailaha> We should do something about it.
<Iqbal> Yeah, like blow something up
<Lailaha> No wayz, that's so 911.
<Iqbal> Ok, get this - we flood the new york subway!
<Lailaha> My uncle's 3rd wife's brother's couzin is zawqari's best bud, he could hook us up!
<Iqbal> Isn't he dead?
<Lailaha> Nah, that's just the cover story. He's hiding out with 20 virgins, practicing for the big day!
<Iqbal> That's sooo cool, I wish I had 20 virgins.
<Lailaha> Yah, me twoz
<Iqbal> Hey, wtf, someone is banging on my door.
<Iqbal> BRB
<Lailaha> ?? u there ??
<Lailaha> I gotz school, culaterz
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
I'll bet extremists use eBay too. Where else can you buy everything you need for anything you want? So can I tell my boss the next time I'm watching my auction of Fancy Teapot Doilies that I'm actually secretly fighting terrorism?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Whenever I hear something like this, I immediately think "What are they trying to distract me from now?"
Did Bush's daughters invade Namibia or something?
Lebanese authorities captured an Al Qaeda member who confessed to the plot, and stated that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi had pledged financial and other support for the operation.
When the only source of information is an alleged confession of an unknown person in the custody of a government that uses torture, you should be very skeptical. Countries like Pakistan are famous for trotting out suspects and victories in the "War Against Terror" whenever they are required for public consumption. In most cases, these suspects are not available for independent interrogation, and there is mysteriously no other evidence available.
Forgive me for the tinfoil hat, but after the last great victory in the War Against Terror which we were lead to believe targeted the Sears Tower, but subsequently turned out to be a bunch of crazy homeless people, I've started wearing said hat with pride.
Lies about crimes
Is that like wooden rubber?
Cast iron and steel are two different things. I'm assuming they mean steel. Cast iron is kind of brittle.
From the blurb:
Lebanese authorities captured an Al Qaeda member who confessed to the plot, and stated that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi had pledged financial and other support for the operation.
One counter-terrorism source told the Daily News it was doubtful a plot to blow it up would be feasible, saying huge amounts of explosives and a detailed knowledge of blast effect would be necessary.
Ok, so all I have to do is hang out in chatrooms until I find some Al Qaeda guy and tell him some off-the-wall plan for a plot. And they'll fund me!
Old and busted, 419 scam baiting. New hotness: Al Qaeda scam baiting.
First one to get a picture of some Al Qaeda guy holding up a sign that says "I traded my 72 virgins for a pulled pork sandwich" wins.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
And check out their Classifieds for local suppliers.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Extremists? Wow. I sure am glad they caught those extremists. Just one quick question: what sort of extremists are we talking about here? Extremist Buddhists? Confucianists? Taoists? Shintoists? Zoroastrians? Hellenic Polytheists? Liberals? Classical Liberals? Neoliberals? Libertarians? Inquiring minds want to know...
P.S. I am always intrigued by the sort of information that is omitted and the sort of nomenclature selected and used to frame issues.
Uttering logically derived and empirically supported truths to the disciples of the orthodox establishment.
So let me get this straight, Canada's CT Intel busts like half a dozen terrorists before they do anything bad and America tells us our borders aren't secure enough and that we suck. America's CT intel klines a chat group and are commended for a job well done. Dare I ask, WTF?
disclaimer: I've been known to store numbers in my ass for which to dig out when quantities are required.
This only the first of many so-called terrorist plots that will be announced as foiled in the months to come. It's an election year, folks.
It's simple: I demand prosecution for torture.
I am curious as to if there is any way to find out if such things are really true. That is, is there any way to really know that five guys with turbans were just picked up off the street as opposed to five terrorist with actual plans and resolve to realize their fatal aspirations?
I ask because I can see valid benifits for "producing" such news, yet have no way to tell either way.
"Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
If only Schumer rhymed with obvious .
The conversation has been made public here.
Of course it runs NetBSD. BTC: 1NT7QvbetmANwaMzhpVL6
I would hope that the real terrorist would be smart enuff to use some sort of private IRC, or something along the lines waste, or some other form of Encrypted Chat. Even gaim with an encryption plug in. But i guess most people dont realize that those yahoo chatrooms arnt very secure. Its scary to think that if even for every 10 fools they catch, 1 is smart enough to stay under the radar...we would never see it comming if they were just smart enough to know how to cover their tracks. I dont think that it would be very hard to get something past the government if you were too seriouse about it.
-EL
So this is the second "plot" that has been "foiled" when it was still in the "discussion" phase.
... just in time for the elections.
And this "plot" was to hit the Holland Tunnel and, somehow, "flood" land that is ABOVE the water line. That's almost as funny as the last "terrorists" asking "al Queda" for boots and uniforms.
This is nothing more than a drive to crank up the fear among the centrist voters
I've been watching these supcious types who go to the internet cafe down the street. They wear funny clothes, smell funny and speak a foreign language. That's about as un-American as you can get. I've been trailing them for a year and over that time I've noticed that they've been working together with others via the internet to stage some kind of attack. Over that time I also deputized some of my online friends in neighboring cities and states to track the other members of the cell as I've gotten clues and hints by watching their chat with binoculars. In some cases I've even seen IP addresses posted in the forums which makes it super easy to pinpoint where the others are. Today I struck. I followed these evildoers as they left the cafe since I heard them make some mention of a group meeting. I figured I'd find other terrists there too. When they got to their destination I saw I was right. There were others of their kind gathered together to discuss their plans. It was a small gethering maybe only ten or twelve of them. But they were no match for my hand to hand combat skills. While the terrists might be able to scare people as a group, individually they can be easily overcome. When I finally pounded the last one's face flat into the floor, I took notice of the strange writing on his shirt. Looks like some kind of foreign insignia or incomprehensible gibberish. It said, "Got root"? Who needs Homeland security when a civilian force of people like me can take these terrists out singlehandedly and easily?
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
So was this a true confession or was this a "confession" when the person was being tortured? Now we all know Lebanon would never torture anyone! You can torture anyone to say anything, including confessing that your mother is commie and a fat capitalist in the same sentence and that you are your own grandfather. After all, why spend time trying to prove someone would actually go though with the plot when you can just torture them?
Heck, you can just take random people off the streets and torture them into confessing they are Al Qaeda sleepers.
...is that you have to walk a backpack onto a subway train, whereas you can drive a truck into a tunnel. The payload in the latter case can be orders of magnitude larger.
Lies about crimes
What kind of idiots do they have working for them that would compromise future intelligence gathering by revealing their sources and methods. In this case it is unimportant to disclose to the public that they foiled a plot by monitoring chat room traffic.
I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
Mod parent up. That is obviously not a troll response.
I don't necessarily agree with all of the statements expressed, but we have every right to be genuinely skeptical of vague media reports on counter-terrorism activity.
There are likely thousands of individuals in Lebanon who routinely talk about what we would call "terrorist" activities, primarily against Israel. To find one that has no connections to an actual terrorist network (he's not even in Hezbollah, which pretty much runs the market in Lebanon) means that he's just a poser with no capabilities of carrying out a military strike within the borders of a superpower. The idea that tax payer dollars were spent to monitor this guy for a YEAR is an embarrassment.
The point of this media report? To tell us that the FBI is good and keeping us safe? Kinda. To tell us that there are important threats out there? Kinda. To chill anyone from even THINKING of talking about terrorism on the internet? Definitely.
The feds had one hell of time joining it, however
* * * * * Terrorist Chat AOL * * * * *
Terrorist 1: I was thinkin we should blow up something for a jihad
Terrorist 2: like in NYC?
Terrorist 1: Sure!
Terrorist 2: tunnel?
Terrorist 1: lol! good idea! GG NO RE
Terrorist 2: roflmao! k thx bai!
Terrorist 1: O RLY?
Terrorist 2: YA RLY!~
Why do they release information like this. They publicise that they watch them in there chat rooms. if another one ever gets busted using a chat room, they deserve it.
I dont get why you tell the public how you uncovered the master plan when they are part of the public. I dont care if its only part of the information, it still tips them off.
At least the news didnt say the FBI is watching #osama tomarow to record a conversation with the leaders of what ever.
Im a gamer, not a grammer major. This post is full of spelling and grammer mistakes.
Normally, it is kept quiet so that others do not know our full capabliities. Supposedly, Al Qaeda did 6 attempts on USA during the 90's. The difference is that this admin is now dumping the info to try and help their chances at the polls. Sadly, this is no different than when Bush and admin committed treason by outing plame. They are killing our future capabilities to help themselves at the polls. I am no longer sure who to be scared of. A group that wants to kill us and occaisionly succeeds? or a group that is forsaking our future and killing us slowly to help their own situation?
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
One counter-terrorism source [said] a plot to blow it up would be [in]feasible
Oh great, if there's one way to get someone to try, that's it.
You should have seen the look on those terrorists faces when they showed up at the target, only to have MSNBC's Dateline come rushing out with cameras.... (Never believe what anyone says in chat rooms...)
"But this one goes to 11!"
Fractured Element
It would probably collapse a part of the roof and kill some people, but it's doubtful it would take out the entire tunnel, which is merely a hole carved in some very hard rock. It's likely explosives were used to create it in the first place.
But, 99.9% of the time, they don't. That's because they're "wannabe's", not real terrorists.
All it takes to be a terrorist is a rifle and a political objective. Both of which are easily acquired in the US. If you cannot start there, then you aren't even a "wannabe". You're a "poser". Here's the breakdown:
"Poser" - all talk, no action. No threat - but they make good newsprint.
"Wannabe" - Lots of talk and has the tools needed. Lacks the guts / drive / conviction. Minor threat - usually maim/kill themselves while playing with their weapons. Sometimes killed when the ATF invades.
"Terrorist" - No talk. Has the conviction. Has the tools or spent time training.
Just because someone seems really silly, and wanders around in a robe with a stick does not mean they are not dangerous - sure those Florida guys sounded goofy but on the other hand what would happen if someone did actually hook up the goofy guys with explosives? However goofy they were they were saying they wanted explosives to take the fight to the US...
There was another really goofy guy - Richard Reid. You may remember him from exciting life moments as "I have to take my my shoes off in the airport?!"
I mean he tried to light his shoe on fire on a plane with a lighter. Yet even that bumbling moron managed to aquire explosives and get them on a plane. If he managed, why not the Florida guys eventually as well? Why should we not take someone seriously when they claim they want to blow up something no matter how inept they seem? Would you leave them wandering without supervision until they did manage to succeed?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Terrorists using internet chat rooms??? LMAO! Give me a break. The US government can't even tell a half-way believable lie anymore.
WTF is cast-iron steel? What a douche bag.
Funny, whatever happened to Assam the American? Remember the video released just before the 2004 election?
http://theglitteringeye.com/?p=386
And yet it was never followed up?
" US intelligence officials believe the man on tape may be Adam Gadhan - aka Adam Pearlman, a California native who was highlighted by the FBI in May as an individual most likely to be involved in or have knowledge of the next al Qaeda attacks.
According to the FBI, Gadahn, 25, attended al-Qaida training camps and served as an al-Qaida translator.
The disturbing tape runs an hour -- the man simply identifies himself as 'Assam the American.
"
Funny, didn't stop Intelligence Officials hyping the guy at the time. No dirty politics there.
this is BS.. the only threat we face is from within
So now the taxpayers get to pay to allow people to waste their time on IRC all day or something? Sure, with policies like that I'd also try to push some "good news" out, it might reduce the damage if word of these activities got out through other channels.
"Hey Chief, I might be on to something. I used the alias of GBush on #sex_harassments and this person wants to "bone" me. Obviously a terrorist, I'll be sure to get to the bottom of this!"
This is in the YRO section. What are the online rights involved in this case? Was there a warrantless intrusion into a private chat room? Was there torture involved? I didn't see anything in the article to indicate anything to be concerned about. (Including that the plot might be successful, or that anyone's civil right had been threatened.) This just looks like another feeble attempt at an attack, good FBI investigation, and politicians trying to look like they're winning the war on terror before the elections.
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
Beware of theM Alphabet Boys. -- FBI, CIA , DHS , DEA
I also don't recall that the "SOLID" building he attacked was actually detroyed, but instead was just damaged.
What is your definition of damaged?
I'd call a third of the building just plain gone with the rest being totally uninhabitable a little more than just damaged. Remember they had to get people off the upper floors using ladders which meant not even a stairway survived, as a lot of the third of the building that vanished went through the rest of the building.
That said I have to wonder if the tunnel isn't strong enough to basically make any explosion a giant shaped charge more than a tunnel destroying event.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Not to worry, the New York Times will be publishing a how-to guide next week complete with tunnel schematics and rates of expansion for various explosives.
Probably, but there is another side to this coin that isn't quite so funny. I once watched an interview with a retired KGB commander. The reporter asked him what he thought were the three best spies ever. The Russian grinned and replied: "Three people you have never heard of". The reporter didn't ask him to explain so I'm guessing that it wasn't until afterwards that the reporter understood what the KGB guy meant by that, namely that the three best spies of all time are unknown because they all got away with it. The same pretty much goes wor signals intelligence the best sources are the ones nobody ever finds out about. I wonder who decided to let this out of the bag and publicize it so well. If I was one of those the FBI investigators I'd be itching to rip the lungs out of whoever decided to plaster this all over the frontpages thus ruining a good source of signals intelligence. I know it isn't exactly rocketscience to monitor chatrooms but if the terrorists are actually dumb enough to discuss attacks on the US using unencrypted communications why advertise your bugging operation? It's a pity terrorists everywhere have now been thoroughly educated on the subject of secure communications just so a few political weasels can raise their approval rating by a few points.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
This is Slashdot. There are no terrorists. And Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia. Are you sure the 19 you guys arrested were not part of an early attempt to game an election?
I think I have all the talking points down, please soemone let me know if I missed any as I only get paid for the full set.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
You know what a "source" just told me? That people in the government are READING THE NEWSPAPER every day! Damn them, how dare they monitor pulbic speech without a warrant.
Wait a second, I read your post without a warrant! Better turn myself in.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I'm shocked that terrorist are still using public technology to communicate. I would think that these things would be done using older technology, like mail or face-to-face meetings. I wouldn't even use the phone if I was a terrorist since someone announced that they are tapping those devices.
Can I bum a sig?
Finish your coffee before viewing.
Lies about crimes
What we all want to know is, was Juni involved? Using C64-IRC or something?
I hope you almost die in a fire, you pathetic fucking pansy.
To paraphrase mothers everywhere, I hope you don't eat with the same fingers you just typed that with...
Ahh rational discourse. How I miss you so!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
This news is a propaganda. Someone somewhere in Pentagon must be laugin there ass off now.
...after all, the Department of Homeland Security recently said there where no terrorist targets in New York City, so clearly this story must be fake. They couldn't possibly have made a mistake.
That depends. Are you going to somehow claim that Bush's announcement way back after 9/11 that he's going to use the bank network to monitor transactions that might be tied to terrorism not "public"?
Sure, that was public. Links aplenty.
Or that the "bank network" is TOTALLY different from "SWIFT"?
So then Bush didn't say anyting publicly about SWIFT. Got it. Kind of odd how you just raised two points that cancelled each other out, but it's your post.
I'd be willing to bet that half of the CEOs of banks around the world have no clue how any of it works, expecting the government to know completely blows my mind.
So even people in the inner workings of banks didn't understand SWIFT, which means it's even less likley any terrorists did before the New York Times laid it out for them in a gift wrapped package. I guess some CEO's got some education then as well, no doubt about that.
You just made the same points the link I gave did, only somehow you got lost on the way to the conclusion.
Frankly, I am appalled that the NY Times^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D FBI has leaked information about a secret terrorist-tracking program. The NY Times^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D FBI has endangered the American people and should be punished as a terrorist. This secret program to track bank accounts^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D chat rooms relied upon secrecy for success and now that the NY Times^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D FBI has blown this program wide open, we are now at risk.
Why does the NY Times^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D FBI hate America? Why?
Terrorists don't trust the evil westerners and their technology. If they were to use online communication, it surely would be encrypted. I find it hard to believe that the FBI thwarted anything via jumping on a public chat room.
Not in a chat room.
Not living in a warehouse.
Not making unsupported claims of how he'd wage a "ground war" against the US.
And he's the example you want to use? Okay.
Sure. Because it is so easy to get explosives / guns / whatever in the US that anyone who CANNOT manage to do so is, by definition, not a threat.
Dude, fucking Wal-Mart will sell you a fucking rifle and fucking bullets.
http://www.walmart.com/guns
And that's fucking WAL-MART!
If some guy cannot get a gun in the US, that guy's only option for "terrorism" is to cough on other people on at the bus station. Yeah, big threat there. Oooooh, maybe someday he'll figure out how to buy a gun! Won't you all be sorry THEN!?! You should take him seriously TODAY!
No. The core concept of "security" is "evaluating" the theat. You're advocating treating every instance as if it were the same as every other instance.
Instead, spend some of the money that would otherwise go to the "war" on "terrorism" and fund some mental health hospital and care centers to get these nut-jobs off the street. But caring for the mentally ill does not get votes in an election year.
There is a difference between a 7-11 stickup and the Mafia. If the FBI's organized crime division touted huge victories for catching a few stickup guys, you'd be right to be less than impressed. The beauty here is that the govt. can now seemingly call anything terrorism and receive applause.
Yes, we should prevent crazy homeless people from suddenly becoming motivated and actually scoping out the Sears Tower, then acquiring, planning, becoming expert in the use of, and planting explosives. But if we want to tremble in fear of every hypothetical, far-out possibility, we'd be attacking countries for simply purchasing aluminum tubes...
Surely there are better uses of detective resources than chasing loudmouths? Like getting the actual guys making the explosives? Like uncovering credible, imminent threats?
Lies about crimes
We managed to bust the dumb terrorists.
Personally, I'd feel safer had we gotten the smart ones.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
what kind of retarded terrorist uses a chat room that would seem likely to be an Islamic extremist hotspot? You'd think they would be smart enough to hang out in some AOL chat room like "Br1Tn3Y sP34Rz 1Z T3H 4WeSomiZ!!1 LOL!" Remember kids, sometimes you have to play dumb to be smart.
Did you know that you can be apathetic to apathy? Not that I give a shit...
The administration complains about the press when they reveal the extent of government surveillance because they administration doesn't like to be criticized.
But they turn around and reveal details of plots foiled by government surveillance to help lead the public into supporting the government's conduct.
So when you read about the details of how the government catches terrorists, here is a guide to tell if the press is good or bad:
1) if the story makes the government look bad or subjects government actions to more debate and scrutiny, then the press is bad
2) if the story helps to support the view that government surveillance keeps us safe, then the press is good
Or if you read a story in the New York Times, then the press is bad.
If you read the exact same story in the Los Angeles times or the Wall Street Journal, then the press is good.
Leaks to the press should be seen in the same light. If someone in the government disagrees with administration policy and
leaks embarrassing information to the media, that's bad.
If the administration talks to reporters, hoping to leak the name of a covert CIA operative, because her husband
was critical of administrative policy, then that's good.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." -- Albert Einstein
Man, what a crappy link. yeah, the information totally wasn't really public cause we know for a fact that terrorists don't read UN sites
They talk about that later (assuming people did read the UN report). You have to read more than the first paragraph.
But they do read the times, through and through every day.
They find electronic Times clippings on computers when they capture insurgents in Iraq. I doubt they get the daily but big stories, sure. Why wouldn't they read them? Do you really think they are illiterate like you were joking about? How racist, and stupid given a number of terrorists were smart enough to learn to fly a jet plane.
Chat rooms aren't private, they're public. Anyone who wants to can wander into a chat room and log the talk, nothing you say in a chat room is ever private, so I don't think the FBI is breaching 'reasonable expectations of privacy' by monitoring public chat rooms, especially those of islamic extremists.
Hey, I'm as against wiretaps and other breaches of privacy as anyone else, but should the FBI be specifically kicked out of chat rooms when anyone can join them?
How long does it take to plan to get a guy in a country, get some decent explosives in hand, and have them blow something up? A year of planning, and it was still in its infancy?
If terrorists really just wanted to terrorize Americans, I think they'd make smaller plans in greater numbers. It'd be so easy to pull off something like that. Instead, they go and make these elaborate plots involving all sorts of communications.
I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but their methods are incongruent with their alleged goals. Something's amiss.
You become a bit jaded after watching The Power of Nightmares (torrents), which dealt with this. This sounds (cursory look) even more flimsy than the four men arrested for being al-qaida operatives based on a video shot on vacation at disneyworld/land/whatever. And oh, the doodles of the mad-man who rented the house before them.
Belief is the currency of delusion.
It's well established that Bush's approval rating got a good upward swing after every terror alert during his first term. After laying off that tactic for a couple of years the Republicans are back at it again, it seems. This "foiled major threat" and the Miami "terrorists" are attempts to get the "Republicans are tough on terror" meme back out. I'm not sure it'll work that well, though. Folks won't fall for the unspecified terror alert stuff anymore, and when they specify it's not that terrible.
I wonder if it comes in a can, like Plastic Wood.
#11509
<amit> I DO THIS FOR ALLAH!
<FBI> we have Allah in a secure facility
dude, the bit about them not reading so good was sarcasm. sarcasm. s..a..r..c..aw, forget it.
Obviosuly it was sarcasm but the message as a whole contradicted the supposed sarcasm, leading one to wonder if they half believed it.
You aren't so hot at picking up counter sarcasm it would seem, so glass house/stones etc. etc.
One word: Bullshit.
If I post in a chatroom every day that I plan to blow something up, at what point do you feel like someone should possibly take a look at that? Should we all just stick our heads in the sand and pretend nothing bad will ever happen just because it was something said in a chatroom? Is there no point at which it's a good idea to check the people behind the messages out and perhaps arrest someone if they are really planning something?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Yes I know, I think though he had a detonator with a fuse leading to it that he was trying to light - if he'd got it going it was going to explode.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
If I tell someone I'm going to kill them in writing I can go to jail for that. How is someone saying they are going to kill some number of nonspecific individuals any different?
Where I would say there is a big line is between someone with actual links to financing and the Florida group which had not yet obtained said financing. So I think a short time in jail to re-think the mission would be appropriate for them.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
There is a difference between a 7-11 stickup and the Mafia. If the FBI's organized crime division touted huge victories for catching a few stickup guys, you'd be right to be less than impressed. The beauty here is that the govt. can now seemingly call anything terrorism and receive applause.
I would say there is a large difference bewteen a violent criminal who is willing to kill to commit a crime, vs. a serial killer who is willing to kill large numbers of random people for fun or other reasons.
Would-be terrorists fall right in that category as they are more keen on blowing up a bus full of people than taking out some poor cashier at a 7-11, and thus I think any group that has true mass murder as a stated intent warrants a greater degree of care taken in letting them operate with impunity. By that definition the DC sniper was also a "terrorist", even though he was not really aligned with any group (so far as I remember the case) - and truly what he did could be classified as "terrorizing" as it really frightened the people in that area.
It is for these same reasons that hate groups and speech are banned in european countries, because these groups tend to advocate violence not towards specific people but large groups of people.
Surely there are better uses of detective resources than chasing loudmouths?
It's one thing to say "I want to kill a bunch of people!". But quite another to start seriously asking after explosives to do so. At that point you are not a loudmouth. Plenty of people say they want bad things to happen to Bush every day but you might notice they are not in jail. I imagine in the trials that the conversations between the Florida group and the FBI agent will be very illuminating.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Real terrorists (if such even exist) will not talk about what they do. People saying "I hate that guy, I wish he'd go die" have no more likelihood to kill the person they are talking about then these people.
I agree up until the point where someone says. Man I hate that person. Mind if I borrow your gun? At that point I start taking them seriously, and the Florida group is in trouble for asking the FBI to give them explosives and presumably accepting an offer to take some.
I also doubt that all "real terrorists" are as quiet as you think. How do you think we find out about other things they do? People are people and some will brag, or get drunk and brag.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The FBI should be glad that these guys are hanging out in chat rooms. We all know that nothing gets done by anyone that hangs out in a chat room and that 99% of everthing said in there is bullshit.
Saving the World: One Drink at a Time
They were not on the street. They were living in a warehouse, which means they had some money... more like a cult really.
As for the "Wal-Mart" guns, sure you can get a few guns but those are little good if you're looking to take out a building or a large number of people. Wal-Mart doesn't sell dynamite you know. It's substiantally harder to get real explosives, and that is what they were asking after.
Now I don't know about you but at the point where a cult starts asking after high explosives I'd say that's a good time to reel them in. Perhaps the publicity around the case is suspect but not the actual action of arresting people with a stated goal of killing people and asking for high explosives to do so from someone they think can provide them. I can't send out death threats with impunity and neither should they be able to.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
How safe do you feel when you are visiting Sears Tower? How comfortable are you travelling in a airplane with a fellow passenger wearing a turban? I can list dozen other situations where terror has become a part of life. Isn't thats what terrorism all about? I guess the terrorists have achieved what they want.
The New York Daily News reported that the scheme was to blow up the Holland Tunnel, the most southern road link between Manhattan and New Jersey, with the aim of causing a torrent of water to shoot out and flood New York's financial district.
The problem with this statement is:
* The Holland Tunnel surfaces in Manhattan near Canal Street, which is still a good ways North of the financial district. Even a "torrent of water" wouldn't make it that far.
* Manhattan sits above sea level, and given the laws of Physics, I don't think such a torrent would escape the tunnel in the first place.
* Any terrorist attack via water outside of blowing a large dam sitting above a flood zone isn't going to cause much fuss as water disperses rather quickly with adequate drainage.
That said, if it were possible to make the Holland Tunnel non-drivable for any length of time it would have a large impact on business in Manhattan simply because most workers are commuters and most products are delivered by truck (Manhattan is an island). On the other hand, there are two tunnels between NJ and Manhattan (the Holland and Lincoln tunnels) very close to one another, so taking out one would just double the traffic at the other. This would cause irritating and large delays, but it wouldn't be cripping. Finally, the George Washington Bridge would still be available for delivery trucks and the deteremined financial sector commuter, though if both tunnels were crippled I would expect more commuting to occur via the rail system, PATH system (subway from NJ to Manhattan), and ferries instead. Prices in the city would skyrocket because of the difficulty in transporting goods into the city, but it wouldn't stop business.
"Feeling safer" is a delusion; reguardless of how you feel, reality goes on.
Wannabe freaks (especially non muslim ones) are way different than a bunch of guys mostly from the same country, actually learning to how fly, and failing the class (especially on landings) SHOULD be a much stronger case.
Not to mention they were right wing muslims. Besides most americans are too cowardly to fend off boxcutters. Now they'd be a bit different; although, they'd be doing it for survival and most are still cowards (proof is in their easy manipulation by fear the rest the world can plainly see.)
I think that's the most accurate comment made so far
Actually, the attacks were focused on the PATH system according to the latest release.
According to Wikipedia, unlike the Holland tunnel, which is lined with steel-reinforced concrete underneath bedrock, the PATH was built on a shoestring budget in 1908, and is nothing more than a series of cast iron metal tubes sunk into the muck at the bottom of the Hudson.
For the uninformed, the PATH is a short-distance heavy rail system used by commuters to cross the Hudson between New Jersey and Downtown Manhattan. All other commuter rail trains into NYC go into either Penn Station or Grand Central Terminal, both of which are several miles away. There is a ferry that crosses the hudson along the same route, and I imagine that it's going to be significantly more popular from now on.
Are there any engineer-type people around here to comment on the strength of the tubes?
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Bravo, brother.
Takes intellect to lay out the case the way you've done it, and guts to do that *here*.
If you want to change US foreign policy in order to stop muslim terrorism, why not make abortions illegal in order to stop christian terrorism? After all, they're targeting abortion clinics and shooting abortion doctors, so it's pretty clear what they want, right?
I'm writing that one down.
Thanks for the lift.
<Stormrider> I should bomb something ...and it's off the cuff remarks like that that are the reason I don't log chats
<Stormrider>
<Stormrider> Just in case the FBI ever needs anything on me
<Elzie_Ann> I'm sure they can just get it from someone who DOES log chats.
*** FBI has joined #gamecubecafe
<FBI> We saw it anyway.
*** FBI has quit IRC (Quit: )
Norris Normal - Who am I?
"reasonable expectation of privacy" in which a chat room there typically is none.
Libertas in infinitum
That's because the Libertarian is the only party out there wanting to limit the size and influence of the gov. Both Dems and Reps expand the gov, and the Greens want to as well.
The Libertarians are the only major 3rd party that wants to prevent the slippery slope and get the government OUT of the daily lives of its citizens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism
Libertas in infinitum
Don't waste the ink. Muslim extremists want us to ban abortions and outlaw homosexuality too, but no one has suggested that we meet those demands. Does that surprise you? But it's true; no one has suggested even once that the terrorists should be appeased!
However, if the foreign policy is stupid then it should be changed. Neither you nor anyone in this thread has given a single reason why a stupid foreign policy is desirable. But lo, as soon as someone suggests that we need a change, here come the defenders of the status quo! And so 'change' mysteriously becomes 'appease' and all rationality is summarily discarded.
To put that in simpler terms for you
They failed to acquire footgear.
I agree with that. If I were running a demolition company, I would not be shopping at Wal-Mart.
Meanwhile, two guys with a rifle did terrorize the D.C. area. So your statement is irrelevent when the discussion is about terrorists.
Again, their dreams exceeded their abilities. So who cares about them?
Their abilities did not even result in them getting guns. So who cares about them?
I'm sure you would. That's because you don't understand the concept of "evaluating" a threat.
A "threat" would be an organization that could acquire explosives on their own and had started to do so.
These guys could acquire explosives on their own.
Nor guns, which are available at Wal-Mart.
Nor boots, which are available just about everywhere.
A "cult" (as you claim) with 7 people could cause a significant amount of terror and political disruption in this country. And they could do that with nothing more than equipment that can be purchased at any Wal-Mart.
Remember that the real al Queda terrorists took over planes using innocuous "weapons".
Well then, maybe you should post where any of them did send out a "death threat".
Oh, you can't? I guess that your fantasy has leaked into their fantasy.
They were living in a warehouse and asking their "al Queda" contact to buy them boots.
... they couldn't even come up with a plan they could handle to get boots for themselves.
To put that in simpler terms for you
Who paid for the warehouse? They had the means to buy boots. They simply wanted something for free. Or the guy mentioned what cool boots they had. You are ascribing motive to an event that simply suits the needs of your argument.
Meanwhile, two guys with a rifle did terrorize the D.C. area. So your statement is irrelevent when the discussion is about terrorists.
Whoosh! If you wanna be a "real terrorist" as these guys did your goal is a BUILDING. You totally misunderstood the point being made there.
Again, their dreams exceeded their abilities. So who cares about them?
Their abilities did not even result in them getting guns. So who cares about them?
Man you are as dense as a diamond in the bottom of the marina trench. They wanted to do much more than that, and the FBI agent was the easist means to meet the end they sought. So their dreams and abilites did indeed meet for a brief moment - until they found out that was an FBI agent. What if it had not been an FBI agent but the real thing? Why not throw a few cases of C4 to some idiots and see what they do?
I'm sure you would. That's because you don't understand the concept of "evaluating" a threat.
A "threat" would be an organization that could acquire explosives on their own and had started to do so.
Well since you dont understand what a "latent threat" is we'll call it even, or rather call you short sighted.
These guys could acquire explosives on their own.
There's the linchpin of your theory - from where? And why not simply get it from a guy who says he can get some for you? Fundamentally people take the path of least resistance.
Remember that the real al Queda terrorists took over planes using innocuous "weapons".
You are such a tool. That was because they lived in a time when people hijacked airplanes to go places, not to crash them into buildings. Even then the last of the planes heard abou tthe others and figured it out in time to un-hijack the plane (a fact you conveniently skip over, or have forgot in your zeal to uphold your weak theory) You'll notice that people that try crap today are tackled and bound with about fifty belts.
Well then, maybe you should post where any of them did send out a "death threat".
Oh, you can't? I guess that your fantasy has leaked into their fantasy.
The FBI has it recorded, or they have no case. One of us will be prooved right in just a few months.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
If you want to read a lot of other interesing Libertarian stuff, check out Reason magazine.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
What was that?
"Or the guy mentioned what cool boots they had."
Great. So now you have to invent conversations to "support" your position? I guess you don't know the facts of the case. And there's no reason for me to continue to discuss this with someone who won't put in the minimum effort to educate himself.
Which reminds me of those dip-shits who could not even formulate a plan to get themselves boots. Yeah, I can see why you'd want to believe that they were "threats". Both of you are in the same league.
"Or the guy mentioned what cool boots they had."
Great. So now you have to invent conversations to "support" your position?
I am taking no position relative to that conversation at all - I am just saying you or I cannot truly know intent.
I guess you don't know the facts of the case. And there's no reason for me to continue to discuss this with someone who won't put in the minimum effort to educate himself.
The standard answer of someone who has lost. Pretty much what I expected though I must say you were mercifully short winded in rationalizing why you are walking off in a huff.
Which reminds me of those dip-shits who could not even formulate a plan to get themselves boots. Yeah, I can see why you'd want to believe that they were "threats". Both of you are in the same league.
Given how fixated you are on boots I highly recommend a nice pair of single-piece hiking boots, which will keep your feet dry while you are walking out in huffs like that.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
This is terrible. Clearly, chat rooms must be banned.
Cast iron steel?
quia potentia mens mentis
You need some education.
First off, big business LIKES big government. Big government has a lot of power to legislate IN FAVOR of big business. Why do you think the tax laws are so convoluted? Copyright laws? SEC regulations? I could go on and on. They are all very complicated and complex due to the lobbying of interest groups, trade lobbies, and multinational corporations.
An example would be oil companies. There is plenty of oil here in the US. Mom and Pop can't start their own oil company because they do not have a myriad of attorneys and accountants to wade through the federal regulations. Nor do they have enough money behind them to lobby the politicians to get legislation passed in their favor. The BIG corporations do. Big business uses big government to stifle competition. Look at the phone companies. Look at the power companies. There are a million examples.
With a corporation you have a choice. You can buy their product/services, or you can go to their competition. Or in a free market without government intervention, you can EVEN START YOUR OWN COMPANY TO COMPETE!
There are such things as anti-competitive practices, or predatorial monopolies. Both of these actions infringe on the right of the players in a free market. Most libertarians are not opposed to the government intervening only when a firm is anti-competitive or predatorial. The basis of libertarianism is "your rights stop where another person's rights begin". This would obviously apply to the market as well.
The countries in Africa you referred to in your example are not democratic, nor are they free societies in which life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are valued. I also think you are confusing libertarianism with anarchy. Libertarianism is limited government, only the absolute minimum necessary to maintain peace and order. Anarchy is no government at all.
Libertas in infinitum
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this looks very much like a way of trying to convince a lot of suburban people to agree with the FBI's new idea to spy on people's internet activity.