GnuCash 2.0.0 Released

tashanna writes "After a very welcome GTK2 conversion and some additional feature hacking, GnuCash has released version 2.0.0. Other notable changes include: 'OFX DirectConnect which can directly retrieve and import account statements over the Internet, a "Hide account" feature to keep a better overview of your current accounts tabbed window functionality, the ability to create budgets within GnuCash using your account data, support for Accounting Periods, the data file format has been improved with respect to international characters data files with international characters can be transferred to other countries flawlessly, GnuCash Help and Guide are now fully integrated with the GNOME Help system (Yelp).'"

Comments

Cool!

[Limburgher]

I'm curious to try it out. Anyone have screenshots of the new GTK2-y goodness?

Re:Cool!

[Anonymous Coward]

post em if you got em...

Re:Cool!

[Anonymous Coward]

GTK2-y goodness

Yeah, blurred fonts and unresponsive UIs are great and modern! Just look at Web 2.0

Re:Cool!

[Anonymous Coward]

Lets see what this does to my bandwidth.

http://lynema.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/Scree nshot-gnucase2%20-%20Unspecified.png
http://lynema.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/Scree nshot-gnucase2%20-%20Register.png
http://lynema.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/Scree nshot-gnucase2%20-%20Gas.png
http://lynema.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/Scree nshot-gnucase2%20-%20Expense%20Accounts.png

Re:Cool!

[WeAreAllDoomed]

ooh, pretty!

Re:Cool!

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow you managed to slam anti-aliased fonts, the sluggish gtk conspiracy and web 2.0 all in the same post. Prepare to get modded down.

Re:Cool!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget ass-backwards UI design and whining developers that blame every problem with their code on someone else. Fuck GTK! I'd rather have all my apps in Lesstif than any in that crap.

Re:Cool!

[yyttrrre]

That looks good. What distro and theme are you using.

Re:Cool!

[Anonymous Coward]

Fedora Core 5. It's the gnucash2 release candidate compiled from source.

Re:Cool!

[dbreiser]

DirectConnect depends on libofx, so it only downloads (can't initiate any payments with it yet). As for security, it is as secure as SSL normally is. You get the opportunity to inspect certificates before approving connection to servers. There are some issues with downloading securities (stocks) transactions during the import to gnucash phase. And my sample-of-one suggests that if your bank uses Yodlee as an intermediary for the QFX/OFX server, connection attempts are very likely to fail. I have used it successfully to connect to several credit card account servers and two different investment companies.

Great for...

[andrewman327]

This is a great program for calculating all of the money you saved by not using Windows!

Oh, and has TFA been /.ed already?

Re:Great for...

[gEvil (beta)]

Yeah, but the thing that kills me is having to donate a dollar to the community for every dollar I spend...

Re:Great for...

[baadger]

...unless of course you plan to use it on Windows.

Most of, and all of the best, 'Linux software' is available on Win32. Ports are made much more likely by open sourced code. So I think you made a bad assumption there :P

Re:Great for...

[andrewman327]

Grumble grumble... I believe that most of the users of this program will be on Linux. But if you insist, I will ammend my statement:

You can calculate all of the money you saved compared to buying Quicken!

Re:Great for...

[timster]

First of all, it's a dollar for every dollar you EARN, not spend. Second, what does the IRS have to do with this?

Re:Great for...

[Kuxman]

Appears to be so...maybe there'll be a coral link somewhere...

Re:Great for...

[pintpusher]

You can calculate all of the money you saved compared to buying Quicken!

which, with rapid sunsetting, subscription features and more, is not an insignificant amount.

Re:Great for...

[stefanlasiewski]

So I think you made a bad assumption there :P

GnuCash is NOT available for Windows yet. It may be available in the future, or it may be possible to compile your own.

According to the wiki: "FAQ: Is it possible to compile GnuCash on Windows? A: Currently, no".

Re:Great for...

[jargoone]

Quicken, shmicken. Microsoft Money is the bomb. Seriously. And if you buy it during one of those crazy tax software deals, you can get the deluxe version for free. That's hard to beat.

Re:Great for...

[generic-man]

$40 every three years is a significant amount of money? I've been using Quicken since version 1 (back when Linux was in its infancy) and I've never had to pay for any subscription features. Upgrading every few years is pretty inexpensive especially when you buy Quicken along with TurboTax. (Speaking of which, where's the open source USA tax program I've heard so much about?)

Re:Great for...

[baadger]

..yep, thats why I said "plan to". These organised finance managing types have plans you know, unlike the rest of us who like to buy shiney things and think about it later.

Re:Great for...

[Don853]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought he was making a joke about it being a free product.

Re:Great for...

[MCZapf]

Could be a joke on the double entry bookkeeping system GNUCash uses.

Re:Great for...

[athakur999]

In previous versions, GnuCash was nowhere near being a replacement for Quicken (or MS Money).

I see this new version finally has the ability to set budgets. Since the site is still overloaded I don't know exactly what this entails. Can you setup recurring bills as well? If so, GnuCash 2 is probably pretty close to the "good enough for most people" mark.

I would love to replace MS Money with GnuCash (once somebody makes a Windows port). Every so often I'll try out the latest version on my Linux partition to see how it's progressing and each time I've been disappointed (as far as it being a replacement for Money, not the quality of the software itself).

I look forward to checking out GnuCash 2 once the site is available again :) Money does have some annoying traits (like if you use the Debt Reduction Planner, it doesn't take into account bills you have charged to your credit card when forecasting payments) and I'm always looking for alternatives.

Re:Great for...

[pintpusher]

fair enough. my experience is with quickbooks which, at the time i left, looked like it was heading for annual upgrades required to continue using payroll services that I was already paying for. and quickbooks upgrades (at the time) were not $40.

Re:Great for...

[jsled]

Budgets: yes (new in 2.0)
Scheduled/recurring transactions: yes (since 1.8)

No, it doesn't have the polish of Commercial Software, but it's improving.

Re:Great for...

[Nutria]

Could be a joke on the double entry bookkeeping system GNUCash uses.

If so, it's a lame one.

Re:Great for...

[smittyoneeach]

Now, I was thinking of running GNUCash at home, on a Linux box, and making it available over the home network on the wife's XP laptop.

If she runs Cygwin, and X, I should be able to forward the GNUCash session, right? Can anyone comment (in a technical, helpful way) on the relative crack-smokingness of this idea?

Microsoft Services for Uniux doesn't really offer much for this scenario, does it?

Re:Great for...

[nharmon]

For many of us, the cost of using Quicken also involves switching to financial institutions who pay Intuit's .QFX ransom. You do know what .QFX is, right? It is .OFX (an XML-based transactions format) with a couple of Quicken-specific tags that tells quicken that the bank is paid up. It used to be not a big deal since you could use .QIF files to import transactions. But starting in 2005, that is no longer an option.

Try and call up Quicken and ask them why...both as a financial institution and as a customer. You will get all sorts of laughable excuses like ".QFX makes the files you get from your bank more secure", or "we don't use OFX because it isn't secure". As if their additions to the file makes it secure (it doesn't, not even from a integrity standpoint because every customer gets the same, or similiar tags).

Re:Great for...

[jsled]

Not cracked-out at all... works like a charm. I develop gnucash that way sometimes from a windows (and OS X) laptop.

Re:Great for...

[BenjiTheGreat98]

I would do something like freenx. She can start up her own gnome or kde session in a window on her XP machine and run programs like that. It would probably be a little easier on the eyes, as far as how the program looks, I would think. Less software on the client side to worry about once it is configured....

Re:Great for...

[jwagner95]

If you're talking about forwarding X over SSH, then yes you can. You could probably use Cygwin's X server to connect to the Linux X server via XDMCP also, but that would be less secure. Of course if it's just a home network, you should be okay though I wouldn't recommend running it without SSH.

I'm sure someone here will correct me if I'm wrong. As far as the relative crack-smokingnes of the idea, it's no farfetched than many of us geeks' ideas and personal setups. I often end-up in recursive ssh sessions without thinking about it (i.e., ssh into firewall, ssh from firewall to webserver, from webserver to main machine, back from main machine to webserver.).

Re:Great for...

[plague3106]

I wouldn't bother; I switched from the last 1.8 release earlier this year for MS Money 2006; MS Money beats GC by a longshot. From the summary (since the site is down), none of the features I wanted were added.

Re:Great for...

[OctaneZ]

Yes, with Cygwin and X it should be possible to forward this or any other X application. Just make sure your server (your /etc/ssh/sshd_config or equivalent file) has X Forwarding turned on, it should have "X11Forwarding yes" in the file. And that at the client end you are requesting X forwarding, by either making it the default action for ssh or by using the "-X" flag.
-OZ

Re:Great for...

[ichimunki]

Not only is it possible to use GnuCash on Windows using Cygwin's X Server. That's how I've been doing it for some time now with very good results. The only problem I've ever had is with default window sizes for non-maximized windows--probably from having a much larger screen resolution on the Windows system than the Linux system that gets X forwarded.

As far as I'm concerned GnuCash is one of the big reasons I've managed to avoid bankruptcy in the past. It's standard approach to accounting and reports was very helpful for me when I got into financial trouble in the past. Seeing this announcement for 2.0 is heartening, and a good reminder that it's time to donate to the developers' beer fund (or whatever they spend donations on).

Re:Great for...

[generic-man]

True. I guess I've been lucky enough to use big banks that pay the QFX tax and don't pass too much of the cost onto me. Intuit is a greedy, evil company... it's a shame that their only major competitor is Microsoft.

Re:Great for...

[swv3752]

It should work fine, though i do find I have to use :
ssh -Y user@iptoserver but that might just be something I screwed up.

Re:Great for...

[cheater512]

Dont you mean MS Money instead of Quicken?

Re:Great for...

[fimbulvetr]

Unfortunately, Gnome is moving a lot of its apps to use DBUS, which I do not believe is compatible with XForwarding. Newer versions of Epiphany and similiar gnome applications simply do not work across an SSH tunnel. I've looked for workarounds, but it seems none exist.

I wouldn't be suprised if gnucash takes the same path in the future.

Re:Great for...

[baadger]

...X forwarding forwards what you see on screen and events, how the hell is that effected by host side software?

Re:Great for...

[fimbulvetr]

I'm just as suprised as you are. Try sshing to an ubuntu box and running any tightly integrated gnome app. You'll get "Startup failed because of the following error:
Unable to determine the address of the message bus"

Any sarge backports available?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like to try this out. GnuCash seems like a good foundation for keeping track of finances, but past versions haven't been user friendly enough for non-accountants like myself.

Re:Any sarge backports available?

[pedalman]

I'd like to try this out. GnuCash seems like a good foundation for keeping track of finances, but past versions haven't been user friendly enough for non-accountants like myself.

Even if you are a non-accountant, you really should take a course in accounting fundamentals. After I did that, GnuCash makes much more sense to me (now that I understand basics in accounting).

Any software app is just a tool. You really need to understand what the tool is doing. If this is too much trouble, then you should go ahead and pay an accountant or bookkeeper to do this job for you.

Re:Any sarge backports available?

[skiflyer]

I'm a non-accountant too and I found GnuCash the perfect tool... so much more up my alley than the pay to play alternatives I had mucked with in the past. Unfortunately once finances got to a point where I needed a real accountant, he used QuickBooks so now I do too... and since the new version of QuickBooks won't run on Wine it was the straw that broke the camel's back and brought me back to a Windows desktop.

I'd love to see GnuCash get to a point where real life accountants used it, or maybe if it could just output to a QuickBooks format or something... is there a standard in the accounting world? I have no idea. I'm just rambling the "killer" features that I'd love to see so I could use the program which I prefer anyway.

Re:Any sarge backports available?

[jsled]

Exported HTML reports are pretty universal. A good Transaction Report might be sufficient for your accountant.

Re:Any sarge backports available?

[skiflyer]

You're right if I knew well enough what the heck I was doing... but my end of year meeting is actually an hour of him adjusting and fixing my bad record keeping.... maybe after another year of managing my finances I'll have picked up enough skills cause you make a rather good point.

Re:Any sarge backports available?

[Fyre2012]

is there a standard in the accounting world?

There is QBXML which is the open XML format that QuickBooks uses. They also release a nice SDK, tho not sure how helpful that is to Linux developers.

The OSCommerce contribution, Quickbooks Import QBI plugs directly into this... I'm certain it wouldn't be that difficult (for an adept programmer) to plug GC into QB via QBXML. lol, thats alot of acronyms.

Cool!

[Kuxman]

Interesting.. I just discovered an older version of GNUCash this morning and had some complaints (enough to keep me from using it), but according to the change log, my largest complaints are fixed. It'll be interesting to see how well the DirectConnect works... and more importantly... is it secure enough to trust?

Port for MS Windows is possible with GTK2

[stefanlasiewski]

With the adaptation to GTK2 , GNUcash may someday be available for Microsoft Windows according to the GNUcash wiki at http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Windows/

With GTK1, a port of GNUcash for Windows was only a dream.

GnuCash is pretty popular in the Linux world. It would be great to see this OSS project available to Windows users as well.

Re:Port for MS Windows is possible with GTK2

[truedfx]

Windows/
(There is currently no text in this page)

Very interesting link. Drop the / :)

GNUcash

[joe 155]

I wasn't too sure what GNUCash was from the summery and the article seems to have gone down, if you're wondering:

GnuCash is an application to keep track of your finances. GnuCash is a personal finance manager. A check-book like register GUI allows you to enter and track bank accounts, stocks, income and even currency trades. The interface is designed to be simple and easy to use, but is backed with double-entry accounting principles to ensure balanced books.

That's from yum, although 2.0.0 isn't in the fedora repositories yet (well, not; livna, core, extras or updates)

Re:GNUcash

[gnuman99]

Double-entry accounting is the only way to fly in the money world. It is the only way to make sure you balance you transactions. For example, instead of having

Dentist         Expenses:Health     $200.00

You have,

Dentist         Expenses:Health     $200.00
                Liabilities:Visa              $200.00

Or even better,

Dentist         Expenses:Health     $200.00
                Expenses:Taxes       $15.00
                Liabilities:Visa              $180.00
                Assets:Cash                    $35.00

Then when your Visa comes in, you reconcile your transactions. This is much, much better than a checkbook register or other back of the napkin accounting methods. The point is that ALL transactions are balanced. Money in = Money out.

Re:GNUcash

[timeOday]

Sounds good, but who is going to enter all their transactions manually... TWICE!

In the days of cash and checkbooks, I could see it. But in these days of debit cards, credit card, and automated bill payments, a fairly detailed itemized statement is prepared for you automatically. I suppose there is some margial benefit in manually duplicating all those database updates yourself, but I wager the time you spend hunting down your data entry mistakes will more than negate the benefit.

Re:GNUcash

[ceswiedler]

You don't have to enter anything twice. Everything is a single transaction which refers to two accounts. So as soon as you enter something saying "$200 from Checking into Expenses" there is automatically a "$200 into Expenses from Checking". It's just two ways of looking at the same transaction.

Re:GNUcash

[jrock-jr]

GNU Cash commercial:

1 hand-me-down computer: 0$
linux operating system: 0$
gnucash download: 0$

a free solution: priceless.

Re:GNUcash

[timeOday]

That is interesting. Honestly, though, how many of you manually enter all your own transactions, even once?

Re:GNUcash

[p3d0]

Is your example right? Shouldn't the cash asset decrease by $35? ie. shouldn't that entry be -35?

Sorry if this is a dumb question. I'm often mystified by accounting.

Re:GNUcash

[Liam]

The old version could not do a double split as in your last example. Have they added this feature?

Re:GNUcash

[jsled]

GnuCash has been able to do multiple-split transactions for a long long time.

Re:GNUcash

[Liam]

Splitting one side of the transaction several ways, yes. I do this all the time. I'm talking about splitting both the input and the output; in the example there are two sources of money and two places that it went, all in a single transaction. When I asked on #gnucash about it a few months ago, I was told it was not possible.

Re:GNUcash

[benoitg]

Not many, that's what QIF, OFX and OFC downloads, as well as OFX Direct Connect and HBCI are for. Gnucash will simply ask you what each of your transaction was spent on, as it already knows what account it's from. It will even do bayesian filtering the next time you import to try and guess it for you.

Re:GNUcash

[ottothecow]

That's the debit column so everything in it represents an ammount removed from the account. The other column represents a credit to the account so gaining cash would be in the left and spending cash would be in the right.

Accounting tends to not use the negative sign (when totals come up negative they are usually enclosed in parantheses)

Re:GNUcash

[djschaap]

I can verify that it allows multiple accounts on both the debit & credit sides in the same transaction. I've entered "double-split" entries like that mentioned above numerous times. I'm using 1.8.12 at the moment, but I don't think it's a new feature.

Re:GNUcash

[another_plonk]

That's not 100% correct. A debit signifies an increase in an asset or expense. I.e. if you put $100 into your bank account, your would debit it by 100. The opposite, a credit, is an increase of a liability or an income.

So for instance, if you would buy a car, you would do:

DR Vehicles $50000
CR Bank $50000

On the other hand, if you've sold goods, you would generally do:

DR Account payables $10000
CR Sales $10000

Re:GNUcash

[another_plonk]

That should be "DR Account receivables" of course, not "Account payables"

Re:GNUcash

[andersa]

Oh.. Say.. Just about every business operation in the world?

There are fascilities available to make it easier to type it so in the real world you don't have to type everything twice, although in some situations it is necessary.

Re:GNUcash

[OhHellWithIt]

I'm not sure that using the downloads from the bank is such a good idea, because it takes away part of the benefit of tracking one's finances in an accounting program. Since I manually enter each charge or deposit/payment, when the bank/credit card statement comes in, it's easier to spot charges that don't belong there, or credits that were not processed. Downloading the information from the bank means you're trusting them to get everything right, and that no one is going to commit fraud against your bank account.

Re:GNUcash

[benoitg]

No, downloading transactions isa way to save lots of time on data entry. Spoting mistakes is the job of the reconciliation process (which gnucash has specific functions to help you with).

You may off course decide to skip reconciling and trust your bank for accounts where you download your transactions, but that isn't recommended. Reconciling against paper statements when they come in literaly takes seconds (when there are no mistakes) and is still well worth doing, if only to spod manually introduced mistakes in the account.

Re:GNUcash

[gnuman99]

I'm sorry to say but this is wrong. You need TWO (2) pieces of data to reconcile transactions. If you have one piece of data, then you can't do it. How does it work?

1. Enter data from receipts, income statements, etc.. (1 piece of data)
2. Reconsile transactions against your bank/CC statement (2nd piece of data). This you probably can download but it is not a big deal to do manually.

Anyway, the point is #2 money flow (bank/CC) should equal #1 money flow. There is no magic behind it. There are no "special" functions.

Entering data manually is REALLY easy if you do it a few times a week. You do not enter each and every thing you bought in grocery store, you enter the total. If you want, you can break down food from paper supplies from clothes (actually, you kind of do this for business accounts) but most of the time this may not be necessary.

If you do not enter data manually from receipts, you cannot reconcile your transactions. Well, unless you reconcile them against the box of receipts you may or may not have. Good luck with that!

Note: it is easy to enter data if you do it regularly. A few times a week entering a few receipts is not a problem. Maybe 10-20 minutes of your time per week. Entering a year's worth of data, well, that may be a problem! (52 weeks * ~20 min/week => ~17 hours!).

Re:GNUcash

[OhHellWithIt]

No, downloading transactions isa way to save lots of time on data entry. Spoting mistakes is the job of the reconciliation process (which gnucash has specific functions to help you with).

I understand that downloading the transactions saves data entry time, but I don't follow how the reconciliation process is going to catch errors if one relies on data from the bank:

1. Download the bank's transaction records and import them into my accounting records.
2. Reconcile the records in my accounting against the statement the bank sent me.

This is great for checking to ensure the accounting software is working correctly, but it doesn't help me if the bank has transactions I didn't make, or if I have written checks that have not been cashed. The way I have to see it, for a proper reconciliation to take place, I need to enter the transactions that I know about and compare them against the transactions the bank says took place.

Here's an example of what I mean:

1. At a restaurant, I get bad service, so I only add $0.02 as the tip on the charge receipt. I pocket my receipt and go home.
2. The waiter sees what I have done and adds a 1 to the left side, giving himself a tip of $10.02.
3. The charge statement comes in a month later. I have forgotten all about the lousy waiter except for the facts that he insulted my wife and spilled coffee in my lap.

If I rely on the transactions downloaded from the bank, it will be easy to overlook the increased charge when I reconcile my account. If, however, I have entered the transactions from the receipts I brought home in my wallet, I will catch the slimy waiter's trick right away.

(Disclaimer: I do not stiff waiters. No actual waiters were harmed in the creation of this post. )

Not in portage yet

[BigBuckHunter]

Hoppefully, it will get the QA it needs this week. I was kinda hoping it would be in the ~x86 branch already. Anyone have a prelim ebuild?

BBH

Re:Not in portage yet

[Anonymous Coward]

See Bug 122337.

Re:cash

[JPribe]

Speak for yourself, kiddo. Now get back into your 'rents basement!!!!

Gnome Office?

[baadger]

Gnumeric (spreadsheets), Abiword (word processing) and GnuCash (financing) are all excellent programs that the Gnome project collectively call Gnome Office. Anyone know if this is co-operative in any manner? ..good 'competition' to Open Office, even if they are not in the same class. It'd be great if these apps had a certain level of integration, although I can't think in what way off the top of my head.

Re:Gnome Office?

[iburrell]

All three of them use the goffice libraries. They have a lot of interface similarities because they are Gnome applications. They are pretty much independent projects.

kmymoney

[Wh_TiGER]

I've been evaluating OSS solution and I found this one pretty interesting. Polished and yet, powerful.

http://kmymoney2.sourceforge.net/

I'll certainly give a try to Gnucash 2.0 anyway.

Re:kmymoney

[moosesocks]

With a name like that, it's sure to be good!

(seriously.... have the Gnome/KDE guys just stopped trying to be clever with their names?)

Re:kmymoney

[Medgur]

Is this a case of astroturfing?

Re:kmymoney

[Anonymous Coward]

What? Do you think "Ekiga" is a better name than "Gnome Meeting"?

Re:kmymoney

[Anonymous Coward]

What? Do you think "Skype" is a better name than "Talk to eachother over the interwebnets"?

My point: Software names mean nothing.

Re:kmymoney

[Anonymous Coward]

I've tried kmymoney and wasn't impressed with it. Gnucash (even the old versions) are much more powerful in my opinion. But then, I'm more interested in the accounting end of things than the average geek. When my friends can't figure out how to record a complicated transaction, they ask their accounting friends. When the accounting people can't answer it, they come to me. Funny how a computer scientist answers accouting questions better than the accountants.

Re:kmymoney

[jeddak]

For a really excellent, lightweight, and easy-to-use alternative to Quicken, GnuCash, MoneyDance, et al, I can heartily recommend Ledger. It kicks!!

It's a command-line program that implements double-entry accounting, without the clunky GUI/WIMPy frills.

Re:kmymoney

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty tortuous use of the K prefix. Shouldn't it be called Kash?

And you thought physicists were boring

[Anonymous Coward]

Accountantzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..............

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[eno2001]

Hear hear!! My method of accounting is simple:

1. Only one bank account (with a debit card) into which everything I make is direct deposited
2. No credit cards (they are EVIL)
3. Mentally remember how much you generally have in the account ($9786, OK, so I've got about $10,000 in the bank)
4. Confirm what you mentally think you have with your bank's automated phone system so that you have a fresh guess as to how much you've got
5. Never spend more than %50 of what you think you have in the account unless you have a REALLY GOOD reason
6. DO NOT bank online. Evar
7. Memorize the general amounts of your monthly charges, which should all be automatic withdrawals. ($54.99 for cable? OK so assume $60 a month)

In general it's all based on assumptions with a mental attitude that you have less than you actually do. So far it's worked wonders for my money situation in that I really don't have to think about it unless it matters at the moment. Because if there's one thing people like us HATE to do, it's thinking about money. Money is a nuisance in every way just as non-techs feel computers are a nuisance in every way. For those of you that have a strong interest in money, well... get help.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is all fine and dandy if all you want to do is keep track of the current amount of cash you have and your (nearly-)fixed-amount recurring bills. But that's hardly the breadth and depth of accounting. Here are a couple of examples:

How much money did you spend on electricity in the summer months over the past 3 years, and what's the average difference between your summer and winter electric bills during that time? If you bought a new air conditioner that was 4.2% more efficient, how many summers would it take to recover that cost?

Having made 180 payments on a 30-year home loan, in varying amounts as your income and expenses have changed over the past 15 years, how much principle balance remains on the account?

Given the historical performance of your 401k plan, and adjusting for periodic vesting in your employer's contribution to that plan, how much money will you have at retirement? What is the cost to your 401k if you change jobs now instead of waiting 2 months until the end of the current vesting period and how does that number compare to the difference in salary?

How much money do you lose by not seeking the refund for all of your soda bottles, and how does that number compare to cost of the ~30 minutes of your time required to obtain the refund?

In short, accounting is a lot more than a running account balance. Maybe you don't care to have this sort of information -- it's quite possible that you'd spend more time tracking than you'd receive benefit from the additional information -- but there are some people willing to put the extra time into tracking, and there are obvious financial benefits to having additional information about your spending habits and income.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[DavidLeblond]

I buy everything that I can with my credit card. I don't have debt, because I pay it off in full every month. Why use my card in the first place? Reward points. Mad reward points. Reward points paid for my honeymoon to Aruba. Again, I've never encountered a finance charge... not once.

Credit cards aren't evil, you just have to know how to use them.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[reed]

Um, get some loans! Then you will find it very useful to know what you owe, what you can pay off, how much interest you are paying, etc. You will be able to make much better decisions about what to pay off and how quickly.

However everyone should keep track of expenses though, even if just for a few months. Once you realize how seemingly small things add up (do you go out to lunch every weekday? do you only pay the minimum on your car/home/college loan?), when you could be savinig for whatever your higher priority goals are.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[eln]

i>Mentally remember how much you generally have in the account ($9786, OK, so I've got about $10,000 in the bank)

You round your bank balance UP? Are you insane? Always round your expenses up, and your balance down, so you aren't going around thinking you have more money than you actually do. So if you have $9786, you have $9500, not $10,000.

Also, if you actually do have $10,000 in your account, why are you letting it all sit in checking? Unless you have $10,000 in monthly expenses, you should put some of that money in a mutual fund, or at least in an online savings account (HSBC direct is currently paying out around 5% interest, not bad for a savings account). Having all that money sit in checking is a waste.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[bgalbrecht]

You'd be better off dumping the debit card for a no annual fee credit card with a cash-back reward. Set up the credit card with automatic payment of 100% of the outstanding balance (it's easy to do). Depending on how much you spend a year, you could be eligible for hundreds of dollars in cash-back rewards. You've already developed the discipline to only spend what you have in reserve, and a credit card set to pay off in full is just a debit card with a 20-30 day grace period. The only thing evil about credit cards is that the credit card companies encourage people to spend more than they can afford, and discourage people from paying them off by setting low minimum payments and offering things like "no payment due" months (while accruing additional interest, of course).

What's your problem with online banking? I don't use it to pay off the bills, but I check it regularly to help keep tabs on my spending. That's no different from calling the automated phone system.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[joe 155]

you make a good point, I would also add that (at least in the UK) when you buy with a credit card you are protected against fraud because your contract is not with the people you gave the credit card information to but with the credit company itself, so if goods don't turn up or a company goes under you can get your money back. Debit cards don't offer that protection... but I don't know how to pay credit cards so I guess I'll never get one.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like a great plan for a college student...

Some people have more than $10,000 in assets and like to keep them organized. Your "one account" method doesn't work for savings, investments, mortgages, spouses with separate accounts + joint accounts, etc.

Memorizing charges for basic utilities is easy, but budgeting for food and entertainment is more complicated, especially if it includes a spouse and kids. Sometimes is it useful to look at your budget versus your actual expenses to modify your activities if you find yourself spending too much. It's easier to hone in on what is actually draining your account than trying to spend less in general. It is easier to control yourself when you have something to focus on (e.g. "we ate out too much last month, we can't do that anymore").

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[Bushwuly]

Good luck buying a car, or a house.

Unfortunately today, the costs of purchasing such major items necessitate the usage of credit. My mother at 49 is unable to get a loan to fix her house, because she's paid in cash her entire life and has no credit history. She'll just have to save up until she has enough, right?

While I appreciate the simpleness and ease of what you're promoting, fact is unless you are independently wealthy or have no interest in having a family (how are you paying for the kids' college?), you have to have some form of credit.

People like us? Sounds rather elitist...

(By the way, I gave up a career in IT to work with kids, so I'm pretty sure I don't have a strong interest in money.)

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[Anonymous Coward]

Some credit cards offer other weird stuff. For instance insurance on a rental car is covered by my credit card. I also found out that I can't use my debit card in Canada, so I'm glad to have an alternative with a credit card. Just because you have one doesn't mean you have to USE it.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[Mikelikus]

I actually do some of what you preach. But point #6 intrigues me. Why shouldn't I bank online? Is it safety concerns? It's a much easier way to know how much you've got than using the bank's phone system. The way I see it now, and hoping someone could clarify me, banking online is just a matter of preference and not a big no no as the parent put it.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you for sharing your off-topic, boring, and pointless method of accounting. You deserve accolades for having so little consideration of others.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[Anonymous Coward]

[snip]

Also, if you actually do have $10,000 in your account, why are you letting it all sit in checking? Unless you have $10,000 in monthly expenses, you should put some of that money in a mutual fund, or at least in an online savings account (HSBC direct is currently paying out around 5% interest, not bad for a savings account). Having all that money sit in checking is a waste.

Some banks now offer checking accounts with interest, although in every case I've seen there is some minimum balance requirement (usually $5000). If you dip below the minumum balance, no interest accrues that month. Also, some of these pay interest based on average daily balance, and some based on the minumum balance during the month. There might be other offerings, but this pretty much covers what I've seen.

- T

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[cayenne8]

"Hear hear!! My method of accounting is simple..."

I'm close, but, not quite there. I have all direct deposit to one acct. Towards the end of the month, I call my bank's automated line and get a balance...and I pay all my bills online.

But thinking back...I cannot remember the last time I actually got a bank statment, went through the transactions vs. my checkbook (that I now very seldom use) and reconcile the account. I've not tried balancing a check book or bank statment in I'm guessing nearly 6 years or so.

When I get bank statments, I just toss them in the shredder. I pretty much only use Amex card since it is basically cash and forces you to pay in full. I keep a running total on that monthly in my head...and I generally remember what balance I had in my acct. since last time I paid bills, and subtracted those bills from the balance the bank by phone said I had.

But, I might try this again....I used to use MS MOney way back...and when I switched computers at that time...never kept up with bank statements again....but, might give GnuCash a try...and see if I can find time to do that...

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[szrachen]

Good morning,

I am a representative of Prince Mojumbiquo Atolulu. He is currently in your country and is having troubles transferring money to buy a palace because identity got h4x0r3d. We trust you so much that we would like you to help us get his money to him. He is currently try to buy a palace for $100,000,000.00 and we would like to give you 10% of that for help us. It will just require j00 to transfer $10,000 to us to cover our costs and then you will have your money shortly.

Please respond quickly. He will only be able to stay at Motel 6 for 5 more days before you luck run out and you get hit by bus.

Reginald Escobar

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[KevinIsOwn]

The interest of a checking account will still pale in comparison to the possible returns of a mutual fund.

Of course, the risk is infinitely lower. (But even a cash deposit is a better choice than checking/savings account for collecting interest)

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[cayenne8]

"...have no interest in having a family..."

Good Lord NO!! Hehehe...no, I don't make enough money to do what I like to do, buy what I like to buy, and travel like I like to do, and also afford kids. I'd have to make in the high 6 figures before I could have enough to please myself AND afford the expenses kids run you. I guess it works for some people...but, not for me.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do parents feel obligated to pay for their children's education? Having recently been in college and financed it myself I frankly cannot understand why anyone pays for their children's college education. Anyone with a pulse can find sufficient loans and scholarships to attend a state school; the federal government will give you that much, and interest-free if you meet income guidelines. And it's not that much harder to get the tens of thousands you need for private or out-of-state schools -- I didn't have any trouble.

Am I missing something here? Did my parents just hate me? Maybe they just didn't like the results after they payed for my sister's education, and her masters degree, in Theater. ;-)

I don't mean to be insulting, I just really don't understand the often-expressed obligation that many parents feel to fund their children's education. I don't object to the idea of helping your child finance school, or maybe even absorbing some of the costs directly as your circumstances allow, but I cannot get a handle on this "we must pay for Johnny's education" mindset, and the resulting pressure to save thousands of dollars to meet that obligation. Why can't Johnny learn about opportunity costs and take actions to ensure that the investment he made in his education pays off?

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[cookiepus]

Sorry but you're silly. For... well.. many reasons.

Ok you have one account. Into which everything is deposited. With a debit card. So it sounds like you have a checking account. How much interest do you earn on that?

You spend less than you have. Great! But you have a 50% margin, which you could definately keep at a higher interest. Oh wait, no you can't because you only have one account.

Then, you don't believe in credit cards and online banking, but you do automatic withdrawals? IE you allow your utilities to take whatever they want from your account? Nice...

Here's a better system.

I have a checking account, a high-yield online money market, and a credit card. Everything that I spend during the month goes on the credit card, including utilities (cell, landline, DSL, etc.) My paycheck gets direct deposited into the checking account at the beginning of the month. My credit card is due on the 15h. That means:

In the beginning of the month, I have my credit card statement. I schedule a transfer from the checking account into the credit card. I pay whatever other things I need to pay, by check. The balance of the checking account (minus a few hundred bucks) goes into the high yield savings.

What's the benefit of this system?

1. Since intra-month spending goes on a credit card, I don't have to worry about leaving enough cash in the low-interest checking account.

2. Establishes good credit history. I have had a credit card for years, never missed a payment (and never paid it off in anything less than full). You?

3. It makes me money. In two ways: First, I earn higher interest on the balance of my savings, and second, my credit card pays me 1.25% back on everything I spend. So if I spend $1,000 a month (including all utilities, not unreasonable), I get 12 bucks back.

There's a few other things that my systems kicks ass about. But really, it doesn't take more effort than yours (infact it takes less, I don't have to keep phoning my bank to check my balance), it avoids worrying about overdrafting (the credit card limit is high enough), it allows my money to earn higher interest, it allows me to get cash back on my purchases, etc.

I like it better!

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[eno2001]

Everything you've listed is the exact kind of stuff that really bothers me. I'm not saying it's bad, but just like a (l)user might go glassy eyed when I start extoling the wonders of hypervisor based virtualization, logical volume managers, global block devices and the like I feel the same about those sorts of things. They're vaguely interesting but I really don't want to know since it would be a waste of my time. This kind of information is very boring to me once you really get into it. For those who like it, great. Let them have at it. I'm just saying that most Slashdotters who really are into the tech side (and started off as musicians, DJs, photographers or film makers) are very likely the same as me. Those came to computers from the accounting/business end probably find this stuff fascinating but have difficulty troubleshooting major OS corruption in Windows. No insult meant by any of this. Just basically different strokes for different folks.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[eln]

Out of curiosity, what is the APY on your money market account, and what bank is it with? I already have an online savings account, which pays far higher interest than a normal bricks-and-mortar savings account, but if your money market can get significantly higher than a bricks-and-mortar money market account, i'd like to explore that option as well once my savings account balance gets high enough.

Thanks.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[daft_one]

On behalf of all the retailers who were charged extra for your reward points, and who can't bill you extra OR refuse the higher-billing cards without giving up their ability to take credit cards at all... You're welcome. We hope you enjoyed the trip to Aruba we bought you. ;-)

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[e40]

ingdirect.com current yield is 4.35% on savings accounts. No lower limit.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[daft_one]

If you're lucky, the checking account interest will approach 1%--my interest with First Interstate Bank was 0.75%. Sooo... you can get maybe $75 per year from the checking account, or $500.00 per year from the online savings account cited by eln. (Or, of course, much more if you select a good mutual fund.) Your choice *shrug*

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[cookiepus]

Both HSBC Direct and EmigrantDirect are paying slightly over 5% currently. INGDirect which used to offer higher yields, is lower, at about 4.25% or so. Your bank is probably half that.

In general, Emigrant has been higher than Emigrant in the past. Now that HSBC is in the picture, they have consistently been at the top of the payoff, with Emigrant catching up quickly.

Either way, much better than your local bank. The first 100k of each account is FDIC insured. Transfers between any of these accounts and your bank take about 3 days. HSBC also gives you and ATM card.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is probably why you don't do accounting. I was just commenting that your "accouting method" wasn't actually accounting, and demonstrating some of the things that actual accounting lets you do.

That being said, it's still probably worth a few minutes a month to do basic accounting -- just breaking your expenses into basic categories like "rent", "food", and "taxes" can be very useful in making financial decisions.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[eno2001]

I don't spend enough money to garner rewards as I try to spend as little as possible on anything. But even with the big ticket items that I purchase from time to time (like the 37" LCD monitor I got last Christmas for the family which cost me $2500 out the door) I still don't see what kind of advantage I'd get if I even got 5% back. That would be what... $125? What good is that? Unless I'm misunderstanding what you are saying. I noticed that someone else pointed out that they have a credit card that they've set up for automatic 100% monthly payment that is also a no membership fee card. His approach sounds interesting especially since I don't like to spend more than a mentally set limit. But, other than some bonus points (which all seem VERY small and worthless to me) I don't see how useful it really is other than establishing a good credit score. Incidentally (addressing the comments of others) I'm married and have a daughter and my system works fine for us. My wife (stay-at-home-mom) has a depression era mentality so she tries to keep her expenses to less than $400 a month for necessities. We own three cars all of which are completely paid off and we own a house that we purchased in 2004 with a reasonable mortgage (about $800 a month). I haven't had a credit card since 2000. I concluded that all credit card companies are run by and employ worthless greedy bastard motherfucking evil rotten stinking turds. I got screwed by Discover card in my teens. I got turned down by AT&T Universal when I *WANTED* a credit card even though I had a legit job. I got a Capitol One Visa thanks to my dad and even they fucked with me. NOBODY FUCKS WITH ME and gets away with it.

I told Capitol One that I wanted a $1500 credit limit because I was only getting their card to purchase a Yamaha 16 channel mixer that was going to cost me $1300 and some change. They gave me an $1100 credit limit. So I complained. I wasn't asking them for some crazy arbitrary value, I was asking them for an exact standard limit size. A lot of other credit cards offered $1500 limits... So after I bitched and moaned to the rep on the phone she said, "Fine. You now have a $2500 limit"! Grrr... I didn't WANT a $2500 limit!! I knew myself well enough at the time that I couldn't be trusted to not charge to the limit. She finally hung up on me and left me with this very dangerous $2500 limit on my card. And sure enough, after I got the mixer and paid it off, then little by little I crept closer and closer to the limit and then all of the sudden they upped my limit to $4800!! (What kind of crazy numbers are they using. Everyone knows that credit limits are incremental by $500.) So at that point I knew I was in danger. I decided to pay what remained off over the course of the next year or so. Once I did that I cancelled the card and haven't had one since. That is why I think credit card companies are evil. They won't pay attention to what we know about ourselves. And I knew back then that I couldn't handle a sizable credit limit. It's just too tempting.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[eln]

Actually, the online savings I have is with HSBC direct, and is getting just over 5% currently. You mentioned money market, so I was thinking it might have been something different.

At any rate, yah, I currently have two savings accounts, one with a regular bank and the other with HSBC. I am contemplating closing the regular bank one and just shifting everything to HSBC, since the interest rate is much,much higher.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[eno2001]

Heheh interesting that you say that since I graduated over 12 years ago. I think the real key to making my system work is to keep things simple. For example, don't spend too much money to begin with. Unless it's absolute necessity don't spend period. The only thing that falls under absolute necessity that isn't really is the occasional weekly entertainment expenditure. My family (yes wife and kid) and I don't live boring lives this way. It takes more discipline and hard work, but we think it's worth it. We rarely eat out since most of the restaurants serve poison anyway. And as far as tracking what burns a hole in the wallet every month, it's pretty obvious that it's the recurring bills and the mortgage. So we assume that about 3/4 of my take home is not ours. The other quarter is left for savings which usually get eaten up by the big ticket items. Like the roof that we're getting this Fall. We want to pay for it in cash that way we don't have a loan floating over us. But if we can't afford it, we'll try to weather one more year...

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[embo]

1. Only one bank account (with a debit card) into which everything I make is direct deposited

You have no retirement or other investments? No money market accounts? No savings accounts? Nothing which pays any interest? Why not? Are you married? Do you trust your wife or girlfriend? No kids with bank accounts to keep track of?

Mandating having only one bank account is taking a woefully simplistic approach to finances.


2. No credit cards (they are EVIL)

Credit cards are not evil. Interest rates on credit cards are evil. As long as you pay on time and don't charge more than you can afford (yes, it IS possible to do this while maintaining one or more credit cards in good standing and not paying a dime of interest), you will have no problems.

Last year I charged $5000 worth of home improvment supplies to my credit card in one fell swoop. They gave me 12 months no interest to pay it off. So I took the $5000 I would have spent on paying it off the next month, and stuck it into a 12 month CD (a poor investment, but fairly safe). A couple weeks before I was about to get socked for several hundred dollars in back interest PLUS the balance owed, I cashed in the CD and kept the additional money it had earned, and paid off the card.

No interest paid, and someone ELSE carried the debt for a year while I used the money to sit in an account and earn interest.

Credit cards are not bad. You just need to know how to use them responsibly.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[Apotsy]

You don't bank online, but you do allow recurring automatic withdrawals? Okay...

Also, putting everything into one account with a debit card attached to it puts you at risk of being wiped out if someone gets ahold of your number. Yeah, yeah, you can get it all put back through fraud reversal, BUT, until you do, you are temporarily out of money! Using a no-fee credit card will sheild you from that sort of thing, as the money is NOT immediately withdrawn from your account whenever a purchase is made. Real credit cards also make it easier to rent a car and other simple transactions, due to their built-in protections.

Also, look into a credit union instead of a bank. Better interest rates and lower fees.

Also, put that 50% you never touch into a 6 month CD, and renew it each time it expires. More interest for you, and it's easy to get at in an emergency. If you're really worried, make it a 3 month CD.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[fishybell]

Well, I don't know why all parents that pay for education do what they do, but I do know that you answered much of your question yourself.

Anyone with a pulse can find sufficient loans and scholarships to attend a state school; the federal government will give you that much, and interest-free if you meet income guidelines.

A problem with modern eduction is that it has become very expensive. My first two years of school were at 18,000 a year, at what was called a good bang-for-buck school. I'm still paying off roughly 10k in loans from there. Had my parent's decided to pay for my college, I would have done all four years there, as it was loans finally got the best of me. Sure, anyone can get the loans, but do you really want (you or your kid) to have to be paying them off for the next ten to twenty years?

If you want your kids to succeed, they pretty much need to have a good education, and as might not be able to afford it without a loan, you have the option of helping.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[jargoone]

On behalf of an ever-increasing group of consumers who use a credit card exclusively, and think you should simply consider this a cost of doing business with us: You're welcome. ;-)

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[drsquare]

You need to keep your money in your account in case you need it. If you invest it and suddenly lose your job you're up shit creek.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[bgalbrecht]

For most credit card companies, all you need to do is call the credit card company and ask them to send you the form for automatic payment. One of the options should be "pay in full", if not, it's time to look for a different card. You just need to send them the form with a cancelled check, and in one or two months, it's automatic.

In the case Discover (the card I use most), you would have 1% of that LCD monitor in your cash-back account ($25), and you would be redeem the account in $20 increments. Choices include check, crediting your account, or gift certificates for various companies (up to $40 for $20 redeemed). Assuming I go for cash or credit, it's like getting a 1% discount on everything I buy. For your LCD monitor, unless they gave you a deal for buying in cash, it's like getting it for $2475 instead of $2500 without haggling.

As you've learned, you need to get into the mindset, the credit card is a debit card. Once you've treat learned to treat it as such (and I think the automatic payment-in-full helps), you'll realize the credit limit is irrelevant. I have credit limits much larger than monthly salary, and it doesn't matter to me at all, because when I am buying something, I don't ask myself "Am I close to my credit limit", I ask "Am I close to my budgeted maximum monthly expenditure?"

Theoretically, having one or two credit cards with moderate limits will give you a better credit score than having no credit cards at all. This could lower the interest rate you get the next time you need a loan (car or mortgage). I'm not sure that it's worth it to pay money to see your credit score though.

One last suggestion, move some of that money in your savings/checking account into a high(er) interest savings account, preferably automatically with payroll deduction. Out of sight is out of mind, especially when trying to maintain a budget. Only pull the money out of the savings when it's a planned big budget item, or an unforseen but necessary one like major car or house repair.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[cookiepus]

One thing I have to say, HSBC's phone support is AWFUL (this is why I don't use their credit card). Any evening that I call, it's clearly routed to India and the guys don't know anything about banking.

Emigrant Direct is better. If their rates are the same, I'd go with Emigrant. Cuz otherwise if you need help, you're really stuck with HSBC's shitty support. And you can't go to a branch with questions re: the online savings.

BTW Emigrant Direct is the one I have a credit card from (via Juniper...) that pays 1.25% back as long as you have 10k in your account.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[killjoe]

While I agree about the house bit I have never bought a car on credit. There is no rule that says you have to drive the latest BMW 740IL. I have always driven cheap reliable japanese cars and enjoyed them immensely. You can't beat a used maxima for comfort and joy. Sure the hot chicks don't throw themselves at you but then again I am married so that wouldn't really be good anyway.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[Lord Ender]

2. No credit cards (they are EVIL)
6. DO NOT bank online. Evar

Wow. I'm surprised you (and three moderators) all share a fear of credit cards and online finances. Do you ride around on penny farthing (huge wheel) bicycles and have a handlebar mustaches? Let me give you some suggestions that will save you money.

1. Have all income go to a single checking account. Savings accounts are for suckers.
2. Have one credit card with cash-back. These days, most give you 5% on gas/food, 1% on everything else.
3. Sign up all your bills, your checking account, and your credit card to a payment service like mycheckfree.com. Set up everything to be auto-paid from your checking account.
4. When you have extra money (say, more than 2x your typical credit card bill) invest the extra with a discount brokerage like scottrade.com. Retire early.

With that, you never have to think about writing checks, you get a record of all your expenses every month in the form of a CC bill, and you get something like a 3% pay raise (effectively) because of the cash-back on all your purchases.

As long as you aren't stupid enough to think your credit limit is money you actually have (seems absurd to me), you will have more money and a simpler life.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[Anonymous Coward]

You pay for those "rewards". The credit card companies gouge retailers 2-3%. Retailers raise their prices to pay the credit card companies. credit card companies kick back 1% (at most) to you and you think you're getting a deal.
Sure, so that's going to go on even if I don't participate in the system. But don't pretend like you're making off with loot like a kid in an arcade that "wins" a finger puppet with tickets after blowing $20 on skee ball.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[sasdrtx]

Yeah, that's great.

If you're 17.

And have a lot more money than you need.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[bgalbrecht]

Yes, Discover takes a bigger percentage from the retailer than Mastercard or Visa, which is why not everyone accepts Discover. However, if you're using a Mastercard or Visa, and not in a reward program, you're just giving the credit card issuer additional profit, because the retailer pays a fixed rate regardless of any reward program associated with the card. If you only pay by cash, feel free to ask for a pay-by-cash discount. Some retailers will give you one if you ask.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[camperdave]

...but I don't know how to pay credit cards so I guess I'll never get one.

Payment methods are numerous. My bank allows me to transfer funds from my chequing account over the phone, by internet, or at an ATM. I could also write a cheque, or show up at the bank with a wad of cash. Of course, coming up with the funds to pay... that's the difficult part.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[camperdave]

If you invest it and suddenly lose your job you're up shit creek.

Why? You can take money out of mutual funds at any time. I have one that shows up on my online banking "page", so I can move money back and forth between it and my chequing account at will.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[Anonymous Coward]

Since when did a savings account become "investing"?

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[wall0159]

That's crazy. Money in a bank account is constantly losing value, and you should keep as little there as possible (I usually keep about $500 - $1000). The reason for this is that typical bank transaction accounts basically give you no interest.

You're much better off having a dedicated savings account (that typically has restricted access) with an interest rate at least as high as inflation!

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[Anonymous Coward]

"Mentally remember"
"mentally think"

You do realize, of course, how stupid you sound when you say things such as these?

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[/dev/trash]

I think you need to resolve your parental issues. What kind of parent pays for a Master's In Theatre but leaves a child who most likely picked a major with a job market?

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[ottothecow]

and hsbc's direct online savings accounts (as opposed to emigrants or ING) offer you an ATM card so not only are you earning a high rate (currently 5%) on the money, it is completely liquid and accessable from any ATM machine (unlike say...CDs or money market accounts)

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[ottothecow]

The real method you should be using to make your money accessable in an emergency is a system of rolling CD's

The idea behind it is that you will earn a lot better interest on say...a 5year cd than you would on a 12 month one but your money wouldnt only be accessable once every 5 years without dropping all earned interest. With rolling CD's for a 5 year CD you would split your money into 5 parts right when you invest it, the first part goes into a 5 year, the next into a 4 year, then a 3 year, 2 year, and finally 1 year. after that one year is up, you roll that money into a 5 year (you can have this done automatically). After the second year you roll the next one into a 5 year. Pretty soon you have all your money in 5 year CDs (still not the best investments but they get pretty good interest) but you can access a good portion of it at any time without forgoing more than a years worth of interest.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[Compuser]

I use this exact system, except my rule 5 is to always have at least a fixed minimum
in the account.
I also do not bank online because I find that I forget those transactions much more
readily than ones where I had to go to the local branch. Thus my imaginary ledger
book in my head works well so long as I do not use online banking. It helps that
my local branch is between where I work and where I go for lunch so I can stop
by any day with no extra effort. Then again, this is why I selected the bank I use
in the first place.
Oh, and rule 2 is good for students but once you start making any money whatsoever
you will need a credit card, just so you can buy a house a couple of years down the
line. My rule 2 is : have one credit card and never buy more than $200 worth in any
given month on that card (just so you can pay it off on the spot whenever you are
at your local branch).

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[Anonymous Coward]

HSBC internet banking is great fun... updates and the interest earned each day :D
On the other hand, it doesn't let you access the sign-in page using Firefox in Linux. (Firefox is supported, but only for Win32. Idiots)

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[ThousandStars]

My first two years of school were at 18,000 a year, at what was called a good bang-for-buck school.

Where the hell did you go to school? At the University of Washington--which is probably ranked around 10 for large public schools in the US--undergrad tuition is about $5,600 a year. Some lesser-known Washington cost less, and WA is not known for inexpensive public education.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[biggyfred]

This is a positively horrendous way to do business for yourself.

1. One bank account would mean that a lost/stolen card would effectively freeze you out of your only source of capital.
2. No credit cards = no credit. Pay a balance and don't cash advance.
3. This is the fastest way you will be bilked by businesses. A dollar here, a $10 spot there,...
4. Again, guessing is the worst possible thing you could suggest to other people, or do for that matter.
5. If you're spending more than 50% of your total assets (One account, right?), you either live at home or need to stop acting like you do.
6. Maybe the first decent idea, but even that one is debateable.
7. Budgeting should not be a rounded number. It should be exact. Always. Period.

You my friend, are every politician-hidden-tax, corporate-they'll-never-even-notice shyster wet dream.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[Alioth]

I agree with you on the house (and a mortgage tends to be long term, reasonably predictable, and is a necessity: you either rent or get a mortgage, and in the long run if you're going to be staying in one area, getting a mortgage is cheaper than renting and you get to keep the asset at the end).

However, on cars: there is no necessity at all to borrow money for a car. Buy a cheap second hand car if you don't have that much money. Cars are a terrible thing to buy on credit - not only do you have the interest payments, but a new car loses thousands in depreciation just being driven off the lot, and then continues to depreciate heavily for ever more. The extra maintenance costs of buying an older car are way less than the depreciation of a new car let alone the interest on a loan. Additionally, you can insure an older car liability only which is much cheaper than the full coverage a credit company will insist you have.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[fishybell]

private college my friend, private

25k plus is the norm.

Most public universities and colleges will run betweeen 2 and 5 a semester.

Re:And you thought physicists were boring

[ZarkOmicron]

Works fine for me with Firefox on Linux.

Want a Windows Version

[greenegg77]

We all clamor for Linux versions of Windows software, so where's the Windows version of GnuCash? Just program in some random GPF's and we'll be happy.

In the biz, we call that an "Oh Snap"

[Anonymous Coward]

Your rebuttal, /.'ers?

Re:In the biz, we call that an "Oh Snap"

[Anonymous Coward]

"Oh Snap" is a funny way to spell "ignorant" - you kids these days.

Cash

[Wellington Grey]

Looks like they could use a bit more cash to keep their site up and running.

-Grey

the official announcement

[pintpusher]

from gnucash-users list:

    Accounting in Linux Leaps Forward

*/GnuCash 2.0.0 milestone released to public/*

Personal and small business accounting in Linux will be easier and
better after today's release of GnuCash 2.0.0.
This milestone release of the free, open source accounting program
includes generational advances over the last version. GnuCash 2.0.0 is
based on state-of-the-art gtk2 GUI technology. Developers worked hard to
integrate the Gnome Human Interface Guidelines (HIG) for a consistent
behaviour and look-and-feel for the whole Desktop.
Major changes in the milestone release include;
        * OFX DirectConnect which can directly retrieve and import account
            statements over the Internet.
        * A "Hide account" feature to keep a better overview of your current
            accounts tabbed window functionality.
        * The ability to create budgets within GnuCash using your account data.
        * Support for Accounting Periods.
        * The data file format has been improved with respect to
            international characters. Data files with international characters
            can be transferred to other countries flawlessly.
        * GnuCash Help and Guide are now fully integrated with the GNOME
            Help system (Yelp).
The GnuCash development team said these new features and changes will
make GnuCash easier than ever for newcomers.
GnuCash is the leading free, open source accounting program and the leap
to gtk2 will enable users to be able to enjoy cutting edge functionality
with the freedom of not being locked into proprietory file formats.

*Playing With Others*
As with other leading Linux software that is designed to replace
proprietory programs, GnuCash is a functional replacement for expensive
accounting programs. Like OpenOffice.org and The Gimp, GnuCash is also
programmed to communicate and interact with as many existing programs,
institutions and people as possible.
The GnuCash development team has continued to improve file import
filters, which allow users to import work from old programs like
Microsoft Money and Quicken. GnuCash can load QIF and QFX files, which
are used by both of those programs.
Developers have also continued to incorporate support for online banking
into the program. GnuCash 2.0.0 supports OFX DirectConnect which can
directly retrieve and import account statements over the Internet.
The milestone release is available in 29 languages, including English,
French, German, Spanish, Norwegian, so people from around the world will
have no difficulty operating the program

*Off on the Right Foot*
Users of the GnuCash 2.0.0 will notice a few changes when they start the
program. Improvements have been made on startup speed, scheduled
transactions, currency support and currency quote retrievals.
After they enter the program, users will find a double-ledger account
system, exhaustive report options and account hierarchy tools. Also at
their disposal is a full system of tutorials and documentation.

*Getting GnuCash*
GnuCash 2.0.0 can be downloaded from gnucash.org. It is available as
source code.
To install GnuCash, users will need Gnome 2, guile, slib and g-wrap.

*http://www.gnucash.org *

*http://download.sourceforge.net/gnucash
*

*About the Program*
GnuCash is a free, open source accounting program released under the GNU
General Public License (GPL) and available for GNU/Linux, *BSD, Solaris
and Mac OSX. It is collaboratively developed by 10 people from over 5
countries.

Programming on GnuCash began in 1997, and its first stable release was
in 1998.

Re:the official announcement

[Tadu]

The data file format has been improved with respect to international characters.

That was about time, considering that the previous version saved e.g. an ü as ü - that is, it interpreted its internal UTF-8 string as latin1 when converting to XML. And when you wanted to have some report, the Euro sign was printed â, that is ^a notsign (/. swallows the second symbol). Typical case of double-encoding. So "improved" is a nice euphemism for "finally fixed".

Where's KCash?

[crystalattice]

Doesn't the KDE community have a competitive program yet?

Re:Where's KCash?

[nonmaskable]

http://kmymoney2.sourceforge.net/index-home.html

Re:Where's KCash?

[xoundmind]

The problem is...they probably DO. One thing I like about Gnome is that they don't (seem) to try to reinvent every piece of software on the planet and have it play nicely with all of the GTK+ crap. (Ok, they do have their own cd player, etc.) But those KDE folks...sheesh, why not just recycle some perfectly good gnome apps. It makes me pine for the unified linix desktop idea. Have a few solid projects and make those ones great. The splinter effct is a bit maddening sometimes.

Re:Where's KCash?

[agent_no.82]

That doesn't jive with their goals of interoperability and unified DE, they would have to fork it. There'd probably be a massive flamewar to the likes of "I can't believe you KDE devs are grabbing my code and messing it up just so you can make look pretty with DE!" "Well, if you'd just made your code more compatible..." Etc. There are legitimate reasons.

Re:Where's KCash?

[crystalattice]

Actually, that's what I was really curious about. Since you can run nearly any Gnome app under KDE and vice versa, it's pointless to have two different apps. Heck, it's almost pointless to have two different environments (not counting schemes like Fluxbox, Enlightenment, etc.). Sure, having choices is good but if the effort made in making different apps was put towards making one "great" app, how much better would that one app be?

I do agree that a unified Linux would go a long way to helping make Linux more "mainstream". How often do people ask you which Linux to use, meaning not only which distro but also which desktop environment to install?

Re:Where's KCash?

[pembo13]

I think that is because some of use dispise GTK....for the looks at least.

Re:Where's KCash?

[vondo]

GnuCash is not really a GNOME app as far as I know. It's built with GTK. It does store some info in .gconf (that gets lost occassionally). Does that make it a GNOME app? It's not part of the GNOME project, of that I am pretty sure.

Re:Where's KCash?

[jsled]

While we're not a Full Fledged GNOME Project, the current front-end is built with more than just GTK ... gconf, gnome-print, goffice, &c. Developing this level of desktop app needs the set of services provided by a full desktop environment, and while we try to limit what we use, we do use GNOME libs when available.

Of course, nothing's stopping a full KDE front-end over the same core ui-independent engine, except many person-years of development that's gone into the current one. :/

Re:Where's KCash?

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is... most GNOME programs suck. The libraries are sub-standard (Gtk+, gnome-vfs, gstreamer etc) and the programs are written in a bastard form of C. KDE is written in the clean Qt toolkit with fast, easy to use libs and an object-oriented programming language. It would benefit everyone if the GNOME community gave up on their shoddy code and contributed to KDE. As it stands, Gtk+ is becoming the next Motif, and GNOME the next CDE. Nice.

Re:Where's KCash?

[rgravina]

Yes, but you can't develop commercial apps in Qt without shelling out tons of cash. If all there was was Qt, this would rule out many small developers who may like to release software for Linux. Sure, it's great to have everything open source but having *some* commercial software available can only be a good thing, especially for business.

Re:Where's KCash?

[Just Some Guy]

But those KDE folks...sheesh, why not just recycle some perfectly good gnome apps.

In this case, there weren't any "perfectly good" Gnome apps. Don't get me wrong - Gnucash is a solid, well-written program - but have you ever seen it's dependency list? Parts of it are even written in Scheme. Now, I personally like Lisp and Lisp-like languages, but good look finding:

1. A good programmer
2. Who likes writing non-glamorous applications
3. For free
4. That must be extremely reliable
5. In languages used by a comparative handful of people

It could turn out that a mix of Cobol and Fortran would be the ideal combination for such work, but good luck finding competent and willing people to contribute in those languages. I think the KMyMoney team's approach of starting over with a pure-C++ codebase is much more likely to attract a wide developer pool.

P.S. Sorry for lumping Scheme in with Cobol. It was purely on relative rarity and not on functionality or aesthetics. Please don't hate me!

Re:Where's KCash?

[Nutria]

Since you can run nearly any Gnome app under KDE and vice versa, it's pointless to have two different apps.

So, all we need is

• one OS: Windows
  
• one Office package: MSO
  
• one financial package: MS Money
  
• one development app: MSVC

MSFT must love you.

Re:Where's KCash?

[crystalattice]

I was discussing the merits of how nearly every GNOME app has a "competing" KDE app, usually for no apparent reason other than out of spite. Personally I think it's a hold over from when the Qt license wasn't open, so you had people make libre software under the GNOME project and people who didn't really care about the Trolltech license restrictions making software under KDE.

Having a choice is a good thing, but I think it's better when there are significant differences to be made. For example, I prefer running GQview vs. Kview because GQview has better random viewing features. But I run the KDE desktop because I prefer it over GNOME. Living in an MS world, the choices are made for you, which is rarely a good thing.

Working download link

[Anonymous Coward]

While the GnuCash.org site remains a steaming radioactive crater, you can at least download the sources from SourceForge.net.

GTK2

[kevin_conaway]

Does anyone know any info on a usable, native GTK2 port for OSX?

Re:GTK2

[jsled]

It is available in Fink, though it's not "native" (a-la NeoOffice for OpenOffice).

Re:GTK2

[siplus]

Do you mean native as in Aqua?

I use it in X11. there is Gimp for OS X (which I use often) which I think is GTK2, but I did a quick google search and found a lot of references to GTK2. You should be able to install it through fink

Re:GTK2

[kevin_conaway]

I meant native as in I don't have to run an X11 server behind it. I have an GTK2 app that I would like users to be able to install and go without worrying whether X11 is started.

Re:GTK2

[emidln]

The obvious solution is to make your startup check for X11 and start it if needed.

What about us Brits?

[KingDaveRa]

My major qualm with accounting apps has been the American slant they have. It's often trivial stuff, like the terminology, but some things are slightly different 'over here', and having played with a few other free and Open Source apps, I often found myself a little bit lost and confused. I've used Quicken for some time, and it does what I want, and doesn't confuse me, but it's been localised more I think. I can't pin down the exact things I wasn't happy with, but I know in the past I felt too much of a US-bias.

Re:What about us Brits?

[LWATCDR]

Simple answer is you have the source so start localizing.
The real answer is that any accounting program will tend to be biased towards the location of
a. the majority of users
b. the majority of developers
c. all of the above.
Odds are pretty good that the US developers don't know anything about accounting practises in the UK.

Re:What about us Brits?

[Anonymous Coward]

You should give Gnucash another chance. Gnucash, if anything, has a European emphasis. Most of the major developers are in Germany, transaction downloading works best with European banks (sometimes not at all with US banks), etc. It uses standard double-entry accounting terminology, however, and that may be quite confusing if you've never seen it before. However, on the positive side, Gnucash does come with a very good manual (a rarity for free software) that also gives a decent introduction to standard accounting concepts.

I didn't see the need for double-entry accounting until I had to act as executor for someone's estate with a troubled history. Putting all the various pieces of information together into one coherent financial report would have been very challenging with a single-entry tool like Quicken. For average users, however, it may be overkill.

Re:What about us Brits?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's open source. Join the community and change it!

Re:What about us Brits?

[TTop]

I'm not sure what you're talking about here... GnuCash has built-in multiple currency support.

In my opinion, an important issue with GnuCash is that development is fairly slow due to a good chunk of the codebase being LISP, which limits the universe of developers that can work on it. Unless they've changed that with this new version (which would be great!). So it seems like the pace of development compared to other open source products of its age is fairly slow.

I'd like to see the reporting and graphing features fleshed out a bit more, these seem somewhat limited. All in all, though, it's a pretty nice program.

Re:What about us Brits?

[Neil Watson]

GnuCash can use the double entry system. That is pretty universal.

Re:What about us Brits?

[Anonymous Coward]

GnuCash is pretty awesome.
I don't think it's to US-centric.
However, I'm from the US, so I might not notice.

I do believe the most of the main developers are Europeeeeeeeeeeens.

Give it a shot.

Re:What about us Brits?

[jsled]

In my opinion, an important issue with GnuCash is that development is fairly slow due to a good chunk of the codebase being LISP, which limits the universe of developers that can work on it. Unless they've changed that with this new version (which would be great!). So it seems like the pace of development compared to other open source products of its age is fairly slow.

A very small fraction of the codebase is lisp.

Development is slow. More developers and/or corporate sponsorship would help. All ~7 active devs have other full-time gigs.

Re:What about us Brits?

[Mark Hood]

The help files and FAQ are a bit US-Centric, but I use GnuCash in the UK and I just created 'Current Account' instead of 'Checking Account' and it seems to be working OK ;) All the accounts and features are user-definable by name, so you don't need to worry about 'Federal Taxes' and 'Purchase Tax' confusing you.

I've not noticed anything in the application itself that's US biased - certainly not enough to be confusing...

Although it seems that it might be able to calculate taxes for you, if you're a USian; hardly necessary as I do my tax return online from the UK, and it's a doddle - works on Mac, PC and Linux as it's a web-page form.

Mark

Re:What about us Brits?

[KingDaveRa]

Sounds good. I'll have to have another look at it then!

Re:What about us Brits?

[Haeleth]

You should give Gnucash another chance. Gnucash, if anything, has a European emphasis.

I just did. Sorry, but it has a very, very strong American emphasis. I eventually figured out that a "checking account" was nothing to do with accounts being checked, but was in fact just a weird name for a current account, but as I couldn't work out whether it was safe to delete all the totally irrelevant accounts like "federal taxes" and "state taxes", I gave up very quickly.

I'll try again at 2.1. Maybe by then it'll have got to the stage of letting me choose what accounts I actually want, instead of giving me a choice of (a) a complete set of irrelevant American stuff, or (b) trying to set absolutely everything up from scratch.

Re:What about us Brits?

[camperdave]

It sounds like you used the druid/wizard/whatever-it's-called to set up your accounts. Try setting up the accounts manually.

Re:What about us Brits?

[BovineSpirit]

Brits are well represented in GNUcash development, and there's a en_GB translation. The wonderfully named Nigel Titley has been using it for VAT invoices and submitting bugs, while Neil Williams is a major contributer. The developers and testers are from an array of countries, so any US bias tends to be dealt with quickley.

Re:What about us Brits?

[swiftstream]

Open source programmers scratch their own itch. Do you expect them to find and scratch yours, too?

Honestly--you could at least pin down what was bothering you and tell them so they could fix it, rather than just dropping it and then coming and complaining on /.

I know it may seem that way, but most OSS/FS programmers can't actually read minds.

Re:What about us Brits?

[PinkyDead]

The replies to your post suggest that you are wrong and that GnuCash is pro-European.

But as a European user of GnuCash, I know exactly what you are talking about - Tax.

The tax options on GnuCash are very American - I haven't a clue what any of that stuff is in the tax options. And of course, the biggy V.A.T. is a real PitA to resolve - you can do it by having 3 (or more correctly 5) different accounts to which you post the various different VAT types. But when it comes to paying back the V.A.T. the calculations can be a little hairy. Granted the problem is with way the V.A.T. is done - but the way it is, is the way it is and I'm sure someone someday will write a patch or something.

It's the only thing I miss from QuickBooks - the rest can burn in hell for it's anti-Linux policy.

turbocash

[Anonymous Coward]

i have quite a few clients running
http://www.turbocashuk.com/

open source, windows (iam suprised this never gets much publicity)

unless of course you want to mess about with horrible unix kludges on windows in which case gnuCash will suit you fine

easy install for MacOS X?

[SuperBanana]

Does anyone know if there are binaries published? Gnucash site is down and google was of no help.

Yes, I know it can be built with fink, but even on my macbook that'll probably mean at least 6 hours of compiling, since gnucash has so many dependencies, it's not even funny...a friend says the old 1.x versions had almost 200 dependencies...and it'll be a fairly sizeable waste of disk space to have the entire /sw tree for fink sitting on my drive just for one program. this says almost 1.2GB of wasted space. That's a lot of disk space for just one program.

If we can have a 100-150MB self-contained package for gimp with double-click goodness for OSX, why not gnucash?

Re:easy install for MacOS X?

[flithm]

Uhh that 1.2 GB includes things like xcode, the X11 sdk, and what not.

If they were gonna bother to upgrade to gtk2, why not just switch to something like wxWidgets -- go cross platform on Windows, Unix, and OSX with native widgets.

Oh well. And seriously if you're worried about 1.2 gigs these days, you probably don't need GnuCash anyway since you'll never have any expenditures to worry about :).

Re:easy install for MacOS X?

[sparty]

Unfortunately, you're out of luck on your MacBook for the time being...some of the libraries upon which Gnucash depends do not yet run on OS X/Intel. (see the Wiki entry on OS X installation). You may also notice the list of dependencies earlier in the wiki article, which is not short (and is the reason that using fink is the recommended course of action).

Re:easy install for MacOS X?

[schussat]

The wiki page for OS X now includes a link to this page that contains a walkthrough to get it up and running on intel Macs.

Re:easy install for MacOS X?

[Anonymous Coward]

That blog entry shows that the user was able to compile it and display the main screen -- meaning he could follow the instructions on the Wiki page. That has been possible for months. He has shown no proof that he can actually open a register and do data entry which is where the Mac/Intel port has crashed to this point. The fact that is screen shot shows empty acccounts is a bad sign that in fact he didn't try to actually "use" the software.

Re:easy install for MacOS X?

[schussat]

Good to point that out, AC. The page had been updated to note the same problem that you note: Registers still can't be opened.

Moneydance

[Anonymous Coward]

I've tried gnucash a few times and alwasy found it lacking and was forced to use Quicken in Crossover Office. Finally sometime earlier this year I read a post that mentioned Moneydance (http://www.moneydance.com) and gave the trial version a try. Its not quite as feature rich as Quicken but has all the features I needed and I ended up buying a lic for it. I have used it now for about four months I think and have been very happy with it. It runs on Windows, Linux, and MacOS X. I'm not trolling or really even promoting but I just figued with the lack of good accounting apps out there for linux (at least on the personal finances side) I would mention it. I do hope that gnucash has improved with this realease but for now I'll probably stick with Moneydance.

Oh, and yes it is java but the install was quick and painless and it runs quick (for me at least).

Re:Moneydance

[bobintetley]

...but I just figued with the lack of good accounting apps out there for linux...

There are plenty of good free personal finance apps for Linux without having to buy a licence for a proprietary java application.

I personally use FruityBanking, although I'm a little biased since I wrote it. It's modelled on GnuCash, but with a web interface, and written in Python so everyone can play and it's flexible, open, easy to build on and compatible with SQLite, MySQL and PostgreSQL.

How well supported by banks?

[dschuetz]

OFX DirectConnect which can directly retrieve and import account statements over the Internet

I've been using MoneyDance for a while now (www.moneydance.com), and recently the OFX DirectConnect support has stopped working for Bank of America. And, naturally, all they tell me is "we don't support Moneydance" or "we don't support Macs," even though the app is using what should be well-defined, open standards.

So what've been people's experiences with the OFX features of GnuCash, and does anyone have any "magic words" they can share that've helped get customer service to properly enable/activate OFX features for non-supported money apps?

Re:How well supported by banks?

[devilsbrigade]

Bank of America doesn't support anything but MS. I can't even open my account in firefox using IE TABS. Terrible terrible layout, and very annoying habbit of crashing when i am about to pay bills. If i wasn't so lazy i'd consider switching banks.

Re:How well supported by banks?

[rsun]

Not to defend BofA, but I have no problems connecting with generic 1.0/1.5 firefox on Windows, Linux or Mac. I've never connected with IE that I can remember (who trusts IE with financial info?). I've never tried messing with online account statement download (I'm still running quicken 99, so that kind of stuff died years ago). I've tried GNUCash on occasion, but always found it too frustrating to use because it doesn't work exactly like quicken (7 years of using the same version of quicken will do that to you, I guess). If I can make quicken 99 run under wine well, I'll probably just go that route though (wine, of course, is another ordeal for me).

what about a QuickBooks replacement?

[lophophore]

It is wonderful to have a free software answer to Quicken.

Is there a good OSS solution comparable to quickbooks?

Microsoft looks like a saint or even Jesus compared to Intuit. I hate Intuit.

Re:what about a QuickBooks replacement?

[pintpusher]

just my limited experience here...

depending on what you're doing, gnucash IS a good replacement for quickbooks. It handles a/p. a/r and a reasonable slew of business reports. It does NOT do payroll, which may be a killer for a lot of people, but in my experience, quickbooks payroll wasn't all that. Once you've built a decent spreadsheet for doing payroll, you can format it into a .qif type format and import into gnucash just fine. then you have control over your payroll... my biggest reasons for switching from quickbooks: 1. tired of forced upgrades when the software already did more than I wanted and 2. (the real killer) if you don't use their subscription payroll system, then the payroll calculations will be WRONG. I had some local payroll taxes implemented in my quickbooks. When I got tired of paying them for tax tables that I could get for free from the govt, I let that subscription lapse and guess what happened... the payroll deductions calculated by those taxes I had setup were suddenly wrong. Hours of research later, i determined that without the subscription, it dropped a couple points of precision on the other, custom numbers it was computing. WTF! so screw intuit. IMHO.

Re:what about a QuickBooks replacement?

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen - Since my 2003 version has already been "sunsetted" and I can no longer download bank transactions I've been looking high and low for something that will do three things:

1.) Import my existing Quickbooks data from the last 2-3 years.
2.) Create Invoices.
3.) Connect to my bank and download transactions into my register.

I have yet to find anything that'll do all three. The first one is usually the big hurdle - Quickbooks must have one of the worst file formats out there because no one seems to be able to convert it into anything usable. Probably because it's double entry accounting system. Even a QB2Quicken program would be nice because most programs out there (Moneydance, SQLLedger, GnuCash) import QIF.

If you want to start from scratch there are some nice FOSS tools that will get you going. If you want to migrate from $hitbooks, don't bother.

Re:what about a QuickBooks replacement?

[pintpusher]

1.) Import my existing Quickbooks data from the last 2-3 years.

hopeless. That's the only reason I maintain my stupid winxp dualboot setup -- for access to 4 years of business transactions that are forever locked up in quickbooks. bleh.

Re:what about a QuickBooks replacement?

[scarolan]

Get yourself a copy of VMWare workstation, or if you can't afford that get VMWare player and have someone make an image file for you. About 3-4 gigs ought to be enough. Install windows xp onto the image file, and you can use Quickbooks in your VMWare virtual machine without having to dual-boot. The only thing you should need dual-booting for these days is games. :)

Re:what about a QuickBooks replacement?

[pintpusher]

how apropos as I'm just working on using ntbackup as a means to move my physical xp install into a qemu image. Why that? well, i can't find my stupid original install disks for qb2001 and my qb2004 is an upgrade that borks because it can't find qb2001. argh. and yes I've tried many different iterations of copying stuff from one place to another, etc. so, ntbackup will let you do a "system state" backup that you can use, supposedly, to update my qemu xp instance to the same state as my physical install... hopefully, after many many hours of boring grinding, it will work.

http://macrolinz.com/macrolinz/index.php/2006/01/0 9/physcial-to-virtual/

is where I got the idea.

Re:what about a QuickBooks replacement?

[Anonymous Coward]

The nearest thing I have found is WebERP

Re:what about a QuickBooks replacement?

[mink]

VMWare Server is free and you dont need to install workstation, then you can build/run as many VMs as you like (hardware is always the limiting factor).

Support for Solaris (Sparc)

[Anonymous Coward]

The GNUCash site is /.'d right now and I can't find any mirrors - does anyone know if 2.0 is going to be supported straight away on Solaris 10 (Sparc)? I have recently acquired a Sun Blade 2000 and would love to be able to consolidate my business activities on to Solaris (have already got most stuff running on there).

TIA.

Re:Support for Solaris (Sparc)

[jsled]

IIRC g-wrap-1.9.6 doesn't compile on Solaris 10, and it's a pre-req for gnucash.

We've taken care to make the code base as portable as possible (and to use -- relatively -- really old dependent libs) so it can compile on as many distros/oses as possible. We'd love to have someone helping get it working on Solaris.

Re:Support for Solaris (Sparc)

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for the reply. I would be happy to test out builds if that helps (and report bugs etc) but I don't have any relevant programming experience to develop a port etc. If you'd like me to help out with the testing side of things, you can contact me at nick_g_holmes@hotmailNOSPAMTHX.com

No online banking? Why not?

[pestie]

6. DO NOT bank online. Evar

Uh... why not? I've been banking online for years and never once had a single incidence of fraud. Of course, I switched to running Linux full-time a year or so ago, but even when I was running WinXP I had no problems. Of course, I also somehow avoided getting spyware or viruses, too (probably due to the fact that I was a devotee of Mozilla/Firefox). It's surprising to me to hear this kind of attitude on Slashdot, since most people here are clueful enough about security to know how to avoid getting burned.

Re:No online banking? Why not?

[eno2001]

Well I'm going to try and answer you and a few of the other posters in this one reply...

For me it's just a matter of paranoia and security. As much as I don't care about money or don't like to think about it, I'm not crazy either. I have WiFi access point on my network (A Cisco AP that work gave me). It's secured with WEP. I also use SSH tunnels to and from all the wireless devices on my network. I still don't trust any of it with the sensitive information for banking. I use Firefox on all my boxes since they are all Linux boxes but I still don't trust the SSL connection to a bank. I personally think that the only safe way to conduct financial transaction via computer would be dedicated proprietary protocols and data lines. Obviously that won't happen any time soon, so I won't be banking online. It' way to easy to fall victim to online fraud because you can't always be one step ahead of the blackhat crackers. I was originally pretty angry at my bank for having moved to a voice activated phone tree (as in you SAY your SSN and PIN out loud). But I later discovered that you can still enter the info via the touch tone pad. The only thing I still have to say is the type of account I'm accessing once I've been authenticated (ie. "checking"). I'm not a tin foil hat wearer, but when it comes to my bank account I get pretty close.

Re:No online banking? Why not?

[edmicman]

Better be careful....you can tell what your PIN and SSN numebers are from the tones emitted by your phone, so you should probably disable any sounds that come out of your phone, too, then.

Re:No online banking? Why not?

[eno2001]

I cover the transmitter when I press the numbers and if I always do it on a landline. No cell phones or cordless phones for bank stuff either. ;P

Re:No online banking? Why not?

[Anonymous Coward]

6. DO NOT bank online. Evar

Uh... why not?

I don't do online banking because of the atrocious on-line service agreement my credit union has.

If I go to a teller or an ATM, and the credit union makes a mistake, the credit union has to fix it. If I go to a teller or an ATM, and I make a mistake, the credit union has to try to fix it.

But if I do an on-line transaction, and the credit union makes a mistake, I am stuck: the terms of the on-line banking agreement are such that the credit union is under no obligation to even attempt to correct the mistake, even if the mistake is 100% the credit union's fault.

The couple of banks I have checked have similar lopsided on-line service agreements.

I strongly suspect that in the event of an on-line transaction error which was the bank's fault, an appropriate court would find the relevant portion of the on-line service agreement is not enforceable, but why take the chance?

Peter

Re:No online banking? Why not?

[pete6677]

You know, don't you, that the bank keeps your account info in a computer? It doesn't matter if you use online banking or not, a cracker can get to your account info if the bank does not maintain adequate security. And most banks don't. Why would someone try to break an SSL connection when they could just call up and trick the bank's phone monkey into giving out your account info? I'm all in favor of good security, but you're just inconveniencing yourself for no gain in security. By the way, if you knew what can be done to someone's bank account when the wrong person gets ahold of their debit card info you would never use that card again. At least credit card fraud victims aren't required to pay for the fraud and be without their money for 3 months.

Re:No online banking? Why not?

[Anonymous Coward]

So instead of a fairly tamperproof (assuming your home PC hasn't been compromised) secure encrypted connection that would have been military-grade a few years back, you trust the US Postal Service - and that your neighbour doesn't steal your mailed bank statements? (do *you* take personal delivery of your mail from the mail carrier each morning?) And *then* you've got the burden of storing and (eventually) disposing of the paper documentation securely.

Right on.

Your information is honestly more secure online, provided you're not a complete idiot.

Re:No online banking? Why not?

[eno2001]

SSL is a joke. It's not trustworthy in the least. It's been compromised so many times that's why they've gone from 24-bit to 39-bit to 73-bit and the latest 128-bit stuff. Remember when all the browsers in the world said that you couldn't use anything less than 128-bit SSL because all the old ones were expire in like 1999? Yeah, like THAT is trustworthy. SSL is a joke.

Re:No online banking? Why not?

[swiftstream]

even when I was running WinXP I had no problems. Of course, I also somehow avoided getting spyware or viruses, too (probably due to the fact that I was a devotee of Mozilla/Firefox)

I'll second this. I still use WinXP on a regular basis, and I've never had any form of spyware, adware, viruses, etc. My family is not so lucky, perhaps due to my younger siblings' addiction to P2P and the like. The myth that it is impossible to run Windows without picking up dozens of baddies is widespread, but my personal experience doesn't bear it out.

Re:No online banking? Why not?

[pete6677]

What are you basing this on? Can you link to a story about someone breaking 128-bit SSL? If it's happening, I'd really like to know about it. Banks are now required by law to use 128-bit so the older methods don't really matter anymore.

Re:No online banking? Why not?

[eno2001]

Jeeze-o-Pete... look at the day and ponder the signifigance on Slashdot. ;P Yes.. some of my above posts are serious and some are not.

Re:No online banking? Why not?

[Dolda2000]

I, for one, would definitely trust an SSL channel far more than any phone service. If you type your SSN and/or PIN on the phone, all anyone would have to do is to connect two wires to your local distribution box to listen in. If they have broken Diffie-Hellman kex or RSA to break your SSL connection, though, I would think they'd have larger things to go after than your banking info, on the other hand.

Why I'm switching from Microsoft Money

[Anonymous Coward]

I was an Quicken user for many years despite their regular releases which seemed to
add no new features, just fix existing bugs.
Then the whole TurboTax 2002/C-Dilla copy protection debacle happened and I swore off Intuit forever.

Last week I purchased Microsoft Money hoping to get something like Quicken. Hoo boy.
In 3 days of usage so far, I've found:

1) Registration is only allowed with a checkbox reading "I agree to let Microsoft
contact me about updates and special offers." There is no way to uncouple bug
fix updates from Microsoft spam.

2) Money requires you to use Passport in conjunction with their online features and
in fact this is the default mode for Money 2006, resulting in:
a) Money storing your personal banking details (not passwords, but balances and transactions)
on Microsoft's servers by default,
b) Money "protecting" this information using Passport, a system that has been hacked
before and will be hacked again and which limits the length and therefore strength of your passwords,
c) Money insisting on turning the "store my things on MS servers" mode *every time* you try to
add another on-line service (i.e. a new bank or credit-card) resulting in
numerous repitions of the "add a bank", restore some semblance of privacy dance.

3) If Money has a way to automatically propogate changes for transaction categorization,
it isn't obvious or offered by default. If I drink a Starbucks coffee 6 times a month,
categorizing the first means nothing for the rest; you have to do every one by hand.
Quicken would forever remember these sorts of associations.

4) Despite apparently using Yodlee under the covers, MS Money doesn't offer
either a) a way to synchronize or import your data using Yodlee, or b) access to systems
available in Yodlee.

Re:Why I'm switching from Microsoft Money

[Russellkhan]

Very informative post, thank you.

Re:What is this, Freshmeat?

[cybrhippy]

It is news since it is getting closer to knocking down one more "needed" app for home/casual users who want to switch to Linux. There really isn't too many other options under Linux that come close to Quicken. Now if I can download my data from my financial accounts directly to GNUCash I will so switch in a heart beat.

way to go

[cg0def]

man I feel monkeys flying out of my a**. Never thought I'd see the day that GnuCash 2.0 gets released ( after being stuck at 1.8 for years ) ... It's a great program though and a welcome adition to my system.

Release available at SourceForge

[ThinkingInBinary]

Even though gnucash.org is being crushed by Slashdot, the release is still available at SourceForge.

Re:Release available at SourceForge

[cyanics]

Yeah, but be prepared for a lot of hunting on devel packages. Just barely getting it to install on Ubuntu, after over 250MB of devel downloads. /Kinda rediculus. But wanted to try it out.

Not quite hopeless.. here is what I did

[Xehn]

1.) Import my existing Quickbooks data from the last 2-3 years.

hopeless. That's the only reason I maintain my stupid winxp dualboot setup -- for access to 4 years of business transactions that are forever locked up in quickbooks. bleh.

Not hopeless, at my office I used a (windows) program by a company called 'Digital Cows' to export all of my QB data into a 'plays nice with others' format. (I used CSV and imported to mysql, I think it supports xls, but I've never used it). It's not free, I had to have my employer cover it, but it's a nice simple option.

There is also the quickbooks SDK, which IS free. With a little work, you can export all of your data.

Intuit sure doesn't make it easy, but it is certinally not hopeless.

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with any of the above programs or companies.

Download Link

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is the download link:

http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/gnucash/gnucash -2.0.0.tar.gz

Re:Cash

[eclectro]

Looks like they could use a bit more cash to keep their site up and running.

Actually their servers cashed out.

SQL-Ledger

[Anonymous Coward]

Tried GNUCash a few months ago, but i'm glad i found SQL-ledger. It's not great to look at but it does the job very reliably.

Why don't you convert to Linux, instead?

[photon87]

After witnessing the windows versions of MySQL, Apache and so forth make it unncessary to convert to Linux/*BSD from Windows to use them and help Windows servers be more widely deployed (depriving Linux/*BSD of an advantage or two), I got to understand what Stallman had said : it's not good for free software movement to develop for a non-free OS like Windows. If you wanna use GnuCash, why don't you convert to Linux/*BSD? If that's not so compelling a reason, you have to live with whatever is available for Windows.

I have used both; I prefer GnuCash over KMyMoney

[KWTm]

I've been using GnuCash for about a year now, and have also tried out KMyMoney. I have no financial training background and use it for personal finances only.

Although I am a KDE fan and prefer KDE apps on my Kubuntu desktop, I went back to GnuCash because their double-entry accounting system is more rigourous and more powerful. The equivalent in KMyMoney is categories for each transaction, but not only are the categories not well implemented (you have to drill down into the transactions to display the category of each), but it is less flexible. In the same way that Unix treating non-files just like files (e.g. devices, processes, etc.) makes it more powerful, GnuCash's double-entry system lets you treat categories as actual accounts.

However, KMyMoney's interface is quite polished. I think KMyMoney (v0.8) is where GnuCash v0.8 would be, and over time it will catch up to GnuCash. The two convert files between them quite easily, so I plan to easily switch to KMyMoney if/when it overtakes GnuCash.

Note: As someone else has pointed out, "double-entry" does NOT mean you have to type it in twice. It means each transaction answers two questions: 1. where did the money come FROM? 2. where did the money go TO?

I am looking forward to GnuCash v2 appearing in the Ubuntu repositories.

One thing I wish GnuCash had is a redefinable keyboard interface and configurable fonts.

I mentioned some other things in a previous comment of mine about GnuCash, here:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=189954&cid=156 34117
I talk about how I use GnuCash in a lazy way, and how they have an excellent tutorial that teaches accounting basics as well as specifics of using the program. Never realized accounting could be that interesting. I won't repeat all that, since you can just go back and read my comment.

too many libs

[joschm0]

When I last tried GnuCase (3 years ago), the biggest complaint about gnucash was that it depended on approximately 50 external libraries. It seemed to be a conglomeration of parts written in every existing language and toolkit. That reason alone sometimes made for an unstable application crashing at unexpected times. I hope they've cleaned it since then.

Re:too many libs

[jsled]

To mutilate a famous phrase, "Reports of gnucash's dependency problems are greatly exaggerated".

In any case, it's better than before, but you just can't get away from writing desktop software without using other libs to accomplish things like HTML rendering, printing, graphing, xml parsing, &c.

In any case, here's the dependency list from my gentoo install with optional OFX, HBCI support and quotes-fetching turned on; note that most of the packages are standard (zlib, popt) or just "part of gnome" (gtk, glib, gnome*).

=app-text/docbook-xml-dtd-4.1.2* app-text/docbook-xml-dtd-4.1.2-r6
>=app-text/scrollkeeper-0.3 app-text/scrollkeeper-0.3.14-r2
>=dev-libs/g-wrap-1.3.4 dev-libs/g-wrap-1.9.6
>=dev-libs/glib-2.4.0 dev-libs/glib-2.8.6
>=dev-libs/libxml2-2.5.10 dev-libs/libxml2-2.6.23
>=dev-libs/popt-1.5 dev-libs/popt-1.7-r1
>=dev-libs/slib-2.3.8 dev-libs/slib-2.4.3
>=dev-util/guile-1.6 dev-util/guile-1.6.7
>=gnome-base/gconf-2 gnome-base/gconf-2.12.1
>=gnome-base/libglade-2.4 gnome-base/libglade-2.5.1
>=gnome-base/libgnomeprint-2.10 gnome-base/libgnomeprint-2.12.1
>=gnome-base/libgnomeprintui-2.10 gnome-base/libgnomeprintui-2.12.1
>=gnome-base/libgnomeui-2.4 gnome-base/libgnomeui-2.12.0
>=gnome-extra/gtkhtml-3.6 gnome-extra/gtkhtml-3.8.2
>=sys-apps/sed-4 sys-apps/sed-4.1.4-r1
>=sys-libs/zlib-1.1.4 sys-libs/zlib-1.2.3
>=x11-libs/goffice-0.0.4 x11-libs/goffice-0.1.0
>=x11-libs/gtk+-2.4 x11-libs/gtk+-2.8.12
dev-util/pkgconfig dev-util/pkgconfig-0.20
nls?
    sys-devel/gettext sys-devel/gettext-0.14.4
doc?
    app-doc/doxygen app-doc/doxygen-1.4.4
    app-text/docbook-xsl-stylesheets app-text/docbook-xsl-stylesheets-1.68.1-r1
ofx?
    >=dev-libs/libofx-0.7.0 dev-libs/libofx-0.8.0-r1
quotes?
    dev-perl/Crypt-SSLeay dev-perl/Crypt-SSLeay-0.51
    dev-perl/Finance-Quote dev-perl/Finance-Quote-1.11
    dev-perl/HTML-TableExtract dev-perl/HTML-TableExtract-2.06
hbci?
    net-libs/aqbanking net-libs/aqbanking-1.6.0_beta

Re:too many libs

[geminidomino]

It's less than that now, but it's still a total clusterfsck to get it to run on any distro that doesn't have *gag* package management. The configure/make is still braindead, so it fails with g-wrap errors on slack 10.2

I'm trying to decide whether to hack it up to work, or say "the hell with it" and go back to kMyMoney.

Re:too many libs

[jsled]

It's less than that now, but it's still a total clusterfsck to get it to run on any distro that doesn't have *gag* package management. The configure/make is still braindead, so it fails with g-wrap errors on slack 10.2

Um. It's not a clusterfsck ... you just need to compile the dependent packages in order.

There's a solution to the tedium of that problem: it's called package management. It was invented in the not too long ago as a way to use computers to do a lot of boring, tedious and specific work, like determining and ordering dependencies. Look into it.

Most of our (gnucash's) time-consuming building support regards one distro ... can you guess which one?

Re:too many libs

[geminidomino]

There's a solution to the tedium of that problem: it's called package management. It was invented in the not too long ago as a way to use computers to do a lot of boring, tedious and specific work, like determining and ordering dependencies. Look into it.

Yes, we just had this conversation on IRC where I was essentially told "If you don't use a distro with package management, piss off, no support for you." I found the dependancies with little problem. I compiled the dependencies in order. They were there, they were installed. The issue was that they weren't being FOUND by the configure script and/or Makefile.

If your configuration relies on expecting specific pkg management tools, then your code isn't portable.

I managed to mod the file to get it to compile without your help though. I'll post later on whether it was actually worth it.

Re:too many libs

[jsled]

We don't depend on any specific package management tool.

g-wrap was being found by configure, or it wouldn't have finished.

I wish we could help everyone, but Slackware users seem to take the most resource for the least reward. With package managers, things are regular, predictable ... problems encountered apply to a whole class of users. With Slack, every system is different. We just don't have the time. Yes, it might be a "philosophical difference" in what a distribution should be, but it's only "philosophical" when it doesn't cross over into our world. In theory, theory is the same as practice. In practice, it's not.

Re:too many libs

[Anonymous Coward]

In theory, theory is the same as practice. In practice, it's not.

True Dat.

If choose a distro/OS that requires doing things the hard way ,then be happy doing things the hard way.

Re:too many libs

[geminidomino]

Fine with me. I don't use MS Money because it requires running my system other than how I want to. Your software will just go into the same category.

Budgets

[camt]

Does anyone have more info on the new budgeting features? That is the one feature I have been waiting for most in Gnucash over the last few years. I have an Excel spreadsheet with my entire Gnucash account tree mirrored, and I used that for budgeting, with my actuals in Gnucash. It works okay, but something seemless (with integrated reports) would be nice.

The wiki has a huge discussion about budgeting, but not much real info on what they actually implemented, how it works, or how to use it. I couldn't get to the gnucash main site to see if the online users guide has been updated, so maybe it is there. Can anyone confirm?

Corrected the hyperlink

[stefanlasiewski]

A link in my previous message was broken. This one should work:

http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Windows

Thanks to the AC for pointing this out.

Re:Not really

[Anonymous Coward]

1. no need for anti-viral?

You don't need that in Windows, either. Unless you're the kind of idiot who clicks on any random link he's emailed.

2. having to regain your ID after having it stolen because you put your CC over MSIE to a MS IIS?

Actually, the way credit card details get stolen is by phishing. Or by going to a restaurant with a crooked waiter.

3. Numerous re-installs?

I've reinstalled Linux more times than I've reinstalled Windows.

4. Your retirement account stolen because you are running MS money?

Uh... what? Sorry, I can't even work out what you're trying to say, let alone what it has to do with Windows.

5. The slowness of the system because it is busy transmitting spam via a local virus?

See (1) above. If you're not stupid, this doesn't happen. If you have anti-virus software, it also doesn't happen. The only way this happens is if you're stupid and don't have any anti-virus software. In which case you're too stupid to use Linux anyway.

6. The lost time due to having to deal with spam?

Uh... what? Are you trying to make out that Windows users get more spam, or what? You're talking nonsense.

7. The new bigger system because the old one could not be used with the new OS (of course, the old could be turned into a nice Linux system!)?

Uh... what? Sounds like you've got the mistaken idea that you "have" to upgrade Windows (not true; I'm still running Win2k quite happily), or that Vista will be a resource hog (not true; the massive system requirements are for if you turn on all the eye-candy; it will run fine on most modern hardware and still look better than Linux.)

These are hard to calculate.

Yes, FUD is always hard to calculate.

Porting

[cookiepus]

I don't know if anyone from the GnuCash dev comunity reads this, but for what it's worth here's my big problem to trying it or any OpenSource finance package.

Even if these things start to be able to hold a candle to MS Money, there are lots of people (like me) who have years and years worth of data in Microsoft or Quicken. Unless we can port the data, we probably won't really give these things a proper try.

I would imagine that this is HARD to do. At least based on the fact that Quicken tried to make a program to make the porting easier but it sucked (it failed to match up transactions properly - ie that the -500 that left my checking account is the same +500 that arrived in my brokerage)

In my opinion, most people who would use these tools, are the kind of people who were using Quicken or MSM before GnuCash came along. To get us to switch, we need to be able to port our data in a simple and robust way.

just a thoight...

Re:Porting

[Noksagt]

I have gone from apps that no longer exist to Quicken to MS Money and finally to GnuCash. GnuCash and the other F/OSS apps do an adequate job converting (my Quicken->Money conversion was more harrowing than my Money->GnuCash conversion, despite using QIF as an intermediate format for both).

Additionally, there are services to convert your data for you. They cost some money, but usually less than you'd spend on the commercial apps.

Re:Porting

[cookiepus]

Hi - thanks for the response. You mentioned using QIF as the format for import. It sounds like exactly the way to get into trouble that I was talking about - ie the two sides of the transaction not matching up. I suppose that one way to look at it is that it doesn't really matter - who cares if your app captures all the info about some deposit you made in 2002. But it's just a reason not to switch that probably matters for a lot of people.

I am curious about the services you mentioned. how can i see more info?

Re:Porting

[Noksagt]

I did my conversion years ago. There might be a "better way" now. But QIF is good enough for personal finance information--Money writes QIF which is "good enough" & GnuCash's importer is quite good. (At least older versions of) Quicken does QIF natively, so you'd be set there too. People do switch back-and-forth between Money and Quicken. In the earlier versions I used, the conversion between those two left a lot to be desired. So, I really don't see why converting "legacy data" would pose a barrier for GnuCash adoption.

I can no longer find the links to the places that had offered to do a conversion for payment. Perhaps it is so easy that they don't exist any more? I know Gnumatic offered this when they were still around & know of a lot of businesses which will support GnuCash. I do not know if conversion is still part of support, but I assume it is.

Re:Porting

[cookiepus]

Hey - thanks for writing back. I am not an expert in QIF, but I am under the impression that it does not know how to do more than I account at a time (is that right?) So how does exporting via QIF handle the two sides of a transaction?

Really, I am very curious. I am into this stuff (as you can probably tell from my activity on this thread) and I am thinking of installing GnuCash on my Linux machine just to see what happens (I tried it about 2 years ago, it was AWFUL. Simply horrible) so any feeback re: the import are quite appreciated.

Re:Porting

[Noksagt]

Gnucash can support OFX import, which might be better for you.

It is true that QIF is geared for single-entry systems and that one file corresponds to one account. You export each account as a QIF from Quicken/Money and import them, one-by-one. There is an import druid to handle the mapping of "categories" into "accounts."

I like GnuCash & have been using it for several years. There's been steady improvement, but I don't know of any really radical changes in the past years--this conversion to gtk2 is one of the biggest changes. It still might not be "right for you." (It is right for me & still worth a try, though).

Here's The Fix:

[DaftShadow]

Tell them you use Quicken or MS Money :)

http://moneydance.com/pipermail/moneydance-info/20 06-June/008033.html

User experience thus far is that you should be able to use moneydance just fine, as long as you get them to allow you OFX access. I have no personal experience with this issue though, so good luck. - DaftShadow

I'm a deadbeat* and proud of it!

[bgalbrecht]

While it's true that merchants generally pay a larger percentage for charges with American Express and Discover, the amount they pay for a Visa or Mastercard charge is not tied to the rewards offered by individual bank. That's the bank's cost of marketing, and lowers the bank's profit, not the retailer's.

*In the credit card industry, deadbeats are people who pay off their credit cards every month, which means the bank makes little or no profit on them. Of course, if everyone were a deadbeat, it would be nearly impossible to find a credit card with no annual fee.

Windows users may want to try Turbo CASH.

[Colin Smith]

http://www.turbocashuk.com/accounting-software-fea tures.html

Darling, have you heard of Google?

[wild_berry]

GTK 2.10 has an experimental backend for OS X. That was in the changelog for the 2.10.0 release: http://www.gtk.org/gtk-2.10-announcement.html. There is a project page about GTK on OS X at http://developer.imendio.com/wiki/Gtk_Mac_OS_X.

inflation is running about 3-4%

[Colin Smith]

So unless your bank account earns that net of tax, your cash is devaluing. The same goes for your annual wage increase as well.

This is good.

[/dev/trash]

The Direct Connect feature that is, If it works just like MS Money does. I may be able to dump MS Money.

Bank of America web crap

[DamnStupidElf]

Do you use the credit card or banking features? Credit card features work for me in Firefox, including payments. I do hate their worthless HTTP only front page, but I just sign in with a random username to get to a proper HTTPS page before using my real username. The idiots in customer support couldn't understand a simple MITM attack, and I doubt they would change the site over it anyway...

Re:Bank of America web crap

[devilsbrigade]

i use the banking feature. the credit cards i have don't actually work with BoA, well my mbna card, but i closed that about a year and a half ago. yeah its impossible trying to talk to the "tech" people who are trained to say "did you forget your security question?" and thats it.

Too much hassle to install

[scarolan]

I gave it my best shot but this software is way too much of a pain in the arse to get installed. This one of the main reasons people will not switch to Linux, and well, they're right!

I attempted to install Gnucash 2.0 on a computer running CentOS 4.3, and after going through 30 minutes of dependency hell to get all the required programs installed so I could compile Gnucash, I finally got a fatal error stating that g-wrap wasn't working properly.

Maybe I'll try again later if someone creates an RPM installer, because I don't have time to mess around with the C compiler and obscure config files.

Re:Too much hassle to install

[jsled]

Hmm. Should compile well on CentOS 4.3 ... we'd love to know the error...

Re:Too much hassle to install

[scarolan]

Here you go - I'm an end-user, not programmer so I have no idea what to do with this. This is what appeared after I ran the 'make' command, after going through ./configure:

make[3]: Entering directory `/home/scarolan/downloads/gnucash-2.0.0/src/core-u ti ls'
FLAVOR=gnome /usr/bin/guile -c \
                    "(set! %load-path (cons \"\" %load-path)) \
                      (primitive-load \"./gw-core-utils-spec.scm\") \
                      (gw:generate-wrapset \"gw-core-utils\")"
ERROR: no code for module (g-wrap)
make[3]: *** [gw-core-utils.scm] Error 2
make[3]: Leaving directory `/home/scarolan/downloads/gnucash-2.0.0/src/core-u til s'
make[2]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/scarolan/downloads/gnucash-2.0.0/src'
make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/scarolan/downloads/gnucash-2.0.0'
make: *** [all] Error 2

Thank you

[Anonymous Coward]

I think your hilariously bad advice tinged with paranoia will likely be the best laugh I have all day.

Having only one bank account means you won't be earning much in interest.

You don't trust an SSL connection yet you happily send your details over an unencrypted phone line?

Why don't you just stuff all your money in a mattress and be done with it!

Linux Is Dying

[Anonymous Coward]

It is official; Netcraft confirms: Linux is dying

One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered Linux community when IDC confirmed that Linux market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that Linux has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. Linux is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict Linux's future. The hand writing is on the wall: Linux faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for Linux because Linux is dying. Things are looking very bad for Linux. As many of us are already aware, Linux continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.

Ubuntu is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time Ubuntu developers only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: Ubuntu is dying.

All major surveys show that Linux has steadily declined in market share. Linux is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If Linux is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. Linux continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, Linux is dead.

Fact: Linux is dying

I enter things manually--you should too!

[Noksagt]

If you enter your statement in manually, you can then reconcile the downloaded statements. Most of the commercial apps encourage this behavior in their documentation, even if no one actually does it. This way, you can catch bank errors. It does happen. Not very frequently, but it does happen. GnuCash (and presumably the commercial apps) have completion based on past entries, so manual entries don't need to be that slow.

Sure, if you don't value your money...

[Americano]

With all due respect, there are some significant shortcomings to your financial management strategy:

• You leave a significant amount of money on the table for someone else to pick up, in the form of:
  • no contributions to 401(k) (with employer matching)
  • keeping a significant amount of money in an account which earns no interest, or less-than-inflation rates of interest, when you could just as easily be earning 4.5 - 5% interest on that money, with virtually no added risk or loss of liquidity. (More on this later)
  • Not using a credit card to earn a few days extra interest every month, plus the loss of potential cash-back.
• Your fear of banking online is irrational, and largely unfounded. What's easier? Hacking WEP (yes, I know this is reasonably simple these days) and then breaking the 128-bit SSL encryption between your browser & the banks, or simple social engineering to get your PIN, or other information through a clueless bank teller, your trash, etc?
• No credit cards & no other accounts means you're not building a credit history. For the purposes of home loans, car loans, etc., this means you will pay a significantly HIGHER interest rate (you will be considered at higher risk for defaulting on the loan), and this means you pay more money in the long run, which means it's wasted.
• You rely on memory & estimates. Great for ballpark figuring, really terrible for making sure you're not getting ripped off. ("Hmm... I thought I had $9876 in my account... I only have $9786... guess I must've transposed a digit!"

Adjustments I would make (bearing in mind that I am NOT a financial advisor):

• First, ditch the checking account. Open a brokerage account with a major brokerage that will allow you to write checks against your account's value. Works like a checking account, but you can earn way better interest. Shop around, they have different check-writing & redemption policies, as well as minimums & fees.
• Second, in that brokerage account, your paycheck should go directly into a Money Market Mutual Fund (MMMF) as your "core" holding in the brokerage account. MMMF's are NOT FDIC-insured, but they are very liquid, and very safe. Historically, only a handful of funds have ever "broken the buck", and in all cases, the loss was eaten by the holding company, not by the investor. By all means, if that is still too risky, then go to a bank, and open an FDIC-insured Money Market account, or search around for a savings account with better returns online.
• Third, no money should go into that account via direct deposit until you've signed up for a 401(k) or other retirement plan contribution. Your MINIMUM contribution to your retirement plan should be enough to max out whatever matching your employer gives. The *goal* is to eventually be maxing out your yearly pre-tax contribution to that retirement plan -- currently for 401(k)s, that's around $14,500 per year, but I believe they're raising the ceiling. A LOFTY GOAL, to be sure, but even if you only get halfway there, you're probably doing pretty well.
• Fourth, save up & put at LEAST 3x (preferably, 6x - 12x) of your monthly "necessities" expenditures aside, and NEVER, EVER touch this money, unless you lose your job, or need to take an extended (unpaid) leave of absence due to health problems or something like that. Make sure it's earning at least enough interest to keep up with inflation. If it earns more, then great... when (not if, always assume worst-case for your disaster fund) you lose your job due to disability or your employer folding, and can't find another one for a few months, you can afford to see a movie now and then on the interest gains.
• Fifth, Get insurance, and review your coverage every year or two to make sure you have enough, and aren't paying for too much:
  • Auto -- at a bare minimum, whatever you're required to get by law in your state, with a high dedu

Sounds nice but...

[JourneyExpertApe]

...I refuse to use it until it interoperates with Windows. I've got a dual boot setup on my home desktop, but I use Windows at work and on my laptop (not by choice). I don't want to have to fire up the old vacuum cleaner (as I lovingly call my desktop), every time I update my financial data. Seriously, it's kind of ridiculous that this program hasn't been ported yet. I consider OSS that hasn't been written in a cross-platform manner from the start a little dubious.

Re:Sounds nice but...

[jsled]

Seriously, it's kind of ridiculous that this program hasn't been ported yet. I consider OSS that hasn't been written in a cross-platform manner from the start a little dubious.

You don't write much software, do you?

We internally try to use vanilla C constructs for the widest portability.

We abstract multiple standard library uses for portability.

We spent a good deal of effort intentionally restricting ourselves to the FC3/RHEL4 versions of libraries so that the 2.0 release would be able to compile on distros that haven't had any more recent gnucash to upgrade to in the last years since 1.8.

A developer spent a couple of weeks of his own time figuring out changes necessary to get the core code to compile on Windows . In fact, if you check that page, it's hacked modifications of pkgconfig paths and trying to get guile to behave in windows. In fact, very little is gnucash proper.

We'd love to apply patches to get gnucash to compile on windows, or even compilation build failures. But we're certainly not opposed (passively or actively) to getting GnuCash running on windows.

Re:Sounds nice but...

[JourneyExpertApe]

Yes, I do write a lot of software.

Well it certainly seems like you want to get GnuCash to run on Windows. But I can't imagine GnuCash needing any facilities that can't be provided in a cross-platform way. It is, after all, a number-crunching application. It's probably mostly the input and output that causes the problems. Perhaps if it had been developed in Java or a cross platform GUI library like FLTK from the beginning, this wouldn't be an issue. The point is that the development wasn't cross-platform oriented from the beginning and now people are devoting a lot of their time trying to retrofit cross-platform functionality.

Re:Sounds nice but...

[BCW2]

I would be much happier if those people at Intuit would come out with a Turbo Tax for Linux. Other than games thats the only thing I do on Windows anymore. Then I could ask if there is a way to make GC work with TT. That would be useful. I have used other versions of GC and I do like it so thanks for all the work. I too write code and understand the problems, you are doing just fine so far. After trying Quicken about 8 years ago I just did all my household expenses on a spreadsheet for about 5 years. It wasn't pretty, but kept all the info organized so I could work with it.

Re:Sounds nice but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you read his comment at all?

PS. GTK+ is cross-platform.

Why the fuck shold he?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, communists, but your silly GNU licensed programs WILL be ported to windows, if they are any good. Luckily GNUCash is a steaming pile of shit so no-one will use it anyway.

GnuCash

[PCWizardsinc]

Cross Over Office, IE install + Quickbooks Online = works perfectly well!

Re:I have used both; I prefer GnuCash over KMyMone

[advocate_one]

I am looking forward to GnuCash v2 appearing in the Ubuntu repositories.

unfortunately, it won't go into Dapper... it'll be in Edgy. For Dapper, you'll have to request the backport team for it to be put in Dapper backports or else some kind soul will package it and make it available on an unsupported repository.

that's how I've got the most recent KMyMoney, someone has packaged it and stuck it on their own repository.

* Urban Myth Alert *

[Anonymous Coward]

This 'no credit history so we were refused credit' is an oft repeated urban myth that simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny. What happens (and I've had two family members go through this because we don't do non-mortgage credit) is:

We're told we haven't automatically been accepted and asked to talk to the credit provider, they explain that they can't find any history on us, we explain that except where absolutely necessary we don't seek credit.

The would-be lender asks for proof of what we say, we have to provide the last year in bank statements showing clean running current account(s). The lender tries to persuade us to take out their credit cards (to build a better credit history should you want more credit in the future, after all you could pay it off each month) They generally push this pretty hard, you just have to stand firm.

You get offered the credit you want on a 'second tier' rate, meaning it isn't the best interest rate the lender offers, but it isn't the worst either. And because in our case it's always been on property, the credit is secured on the property anyway. As long as you keep up the payments, no problem. I'm guessing that would be the same if you wanted credit for a car, they'd secure the loan on the vehicle.

I use it.

[Grendel Drago]

I do. I started at the beginning of the year, and have kept it up since then. I keep receipts from everything I can and key them in every few days. My expenses aren't huge, but they include the basics--gas, apartment, groceries, the occasional eBay or Books-A-Million order--using relatively few scheduled transactions. My main .gnucash file is currently 483k, only slightly bloated by near-daily price reports on a few commodities. Every week or two, I reconcile against my bank statements. So far, it's helped me find out that my local newspaper double-charged me last month (which they apologized for and fixed as soon as I called, before doing it again this month; time to call again), and that Hooters apparently forgot to process my credit card, because I went there for a birthday party several months ago, and the charge never appeared.

It's not much more time than you'd spend balancing your checkbook, for instance, and it provides a lot more expense-tracking for the effort spent.

There are a few reports I wish it had (graph the value of an investment over time, not just the price of the commodity and not just at the times when an actual transaction occurred) but I have no major qualms with the software.

Terrible lies.

[Grendel Drago]

Either they were telling you terrible lies, or you phrased the question oddly when you asked then. Highlighting a transaction and hitting 'Split', you can add line items to one side of the transaction as easily as the other.

Re:Terrible lies.

[Liam]

OK, good to know. Perhaps I hadn't made myself clear when I asked. In any case, I'll keep it in mind the next time I need to do it.

Which features?

[Grendel Drago]

Out of curiosity, which features did you want that didn't get added? I ask because the bugtracker they use supports feature requests, and I've been looking for some good ideas to request.

Re:Which features?

[plague3106]

Better documentation, transaction voiding (its supposedly tehre, but I could never find it), export to QIF (or any other widely used format so that if you chose to leave GC, you can), home user reports (i.e., pie graph of spending per category, category spending per month, etc etc). I don't recall any budgeting features. Also, I'm not sure, but I don't think I could download transactions directly from my credit union (without opening a file which is downloaded in some format). The last one... overright the same file. It seems as if on every save, I'd have 2 or 3 new files with some timestamp added to the filename itself.. so it was Myaccounts_200501234_20050123420050123420050123420 0501234_200501234.xac. How do I know which ones I need or didn't need? Oh, and get it running on Windows. None of those things would have kept me from keeping GNUCash for a bit longer, but when I wanted to go to windows, I had no choice but to abandon it.

I"m sure its great if you're using it for business accounting, but it seemed to be aimed much more at that use than home banking.

Re:Which features?

[jsled]

Better documentation

Serious question: in what ways do you find it deficient?

transaction voiding (its supposedly tehre, but I could never find it)

{Transaction > Void Transaction} menu from the register. This is new-in-2.0.

export to QIF (or any other widely used format so that if you chose to leave GC, you can)

The datafile itself is pretty straightforward XML, but you're right -- this would be nice.

home user reports (i.e., pie graph of spending per category, category spending per month, etc etc).

Reports > Income & Expense > Expense Piechart
Reports > Income & Expense > Income/Expense Chart, Expense Barchart

I don't recall any budgeting features.

New in 2.0.

Also, I'm not sure, but I don't think I could download transactions directly from my credit union (without opening a file which is downloaded in some format). The last one... overright the same file.

If OFX, then OFX Direct Connect is supported through AQBanking. Otherwise, no, there's no easy way to either get gnucash to do the download or invoke it as a download handler from the browser.

It seems as if on every save, I'd have 2 or 3 new files with some timestamp added to the filename itself.. so it was Myaccounts_200501234_20050123420050123420050123420 0501234_200501234.xac. How do I know which ones I need or didn't need?

Any but the datafile itself can be removed. But I agree, the backup system is confusing and annoying. There's a preference to clean them after a time-window.

Oh, and get it running on Windows.

That'd be nice.

I"m sure its great if you're using it for business accounting, but it seemed to be aimed much more at that use than home banking.

Hmm. The business features were actually a late addition. It's pretty much set up for personal accounting primarily. We'd love suggestions on how to tailor it better to that application ... well, to both, actually.

Re:Which features?

[plague3106]

Serious question: in what ways do you find it deficient?

Well the documentation told me how to void a transaction, but the option simply wasn't there. GNUCash came with the distro, one of the last Mandrake 10.x releases, or perhaps Madriva 2005.

{Transaction > Void Transaction} menu from the register. This is new-in-2.0.

Funny, voiding a transaction was documented as being in the 1.8.x versions. Seriously.

The datafile itself is pretty straightforward XML, but you're right -- this would be nice.

It wasn't immediately obvious when I looked at it, XML or not. At any rate, a normal user isn't going to know what to do with the XML. Sadly, the one Java program I found which claimed to use the Xml to create a QIF would always bomb.. Don't know why.

Reports > Income & Expense > Expense Piechart
Reports > Income & Expense > Income/Expense Chart, Expense Barchart

Those sound new, but I don't recall anyway to customize the report. For example, if I only wanted Auto and Health categories in those reports, I don't remember any options to do that.. the report just appeared.

New in 2.0.

Didn't help me 6 months ago though.. and I didn't know when 2.0 would be coming out. Development to me seemed pretty slow.

Any but the datafile itself can be removed. But I agree, the backup system is confusing and annoying. There's a preference to clean them after a time-window.

I never knew which one to delete.. what about the .log files? It seems like those needed to be kept too, especially when sometimes it seems that a new .xac and .log were created and were significately smaller than the last 'big' file. I don't recall such a preference, is that new as well?

Hmm. The business features were actually a late addition. It's pretty much set up for personal accounting primarily. We'd love suggestions on how to tailor it better to that application ... well, to both, actually.

Well, I got the impression because I noticed a lot of options for payroll taxes, and some other things I don't recall at the moment, but didn't seem helpful to me as a home user. Maybe an option that askes if you're using it for home fiance or business accounting, and hiding options, and also relabeling some controls so that they make more sense to home users.

One big annoyance for me was setting up a recurring transaction; initially, the columns were labled as Funds In and Funds Out, but as soon as I entered ANYTHING it changed to Debit / Credit. Now, I did take an accounting course in HS, did well and remembered much of it, but for some reason I still get confused on Debit vs. Credit.

That said, I did like GNUCash; it did for the most part do what I wanted it, but there were alot of parts I didn't need. The biggest reason I left it behind though was because I decided to move back to Windows after giving up on Linux on the desktop. I wish I could remember more examples to better answer your questions, but its been about six months since I moved to MS Money.

Re:Which features?

[jsled]

Those sound new, but I don't recall anyway to customize the report. For example, if I only wanted Auto and Health categories in those reports, I don't remember any options to do that.. the report just appeared.

The report has a options ... uh ... option. This has existed forever, though for some reason it's hard for some people to find. I haven't quite figured out why.

I never knew which one to delete.. what about the .log files? It seems like those needed to be kept too, especially when sometimes it seems that a new .xac and .log were created and were significately smaller than the last 'big' file. I don't recall such a preference, is that new as well?

I believe it was in 1.8 as well. FWIW, the log file is database-style transaction-log of changes to your datafile, whereas the .xac files are straight backup copies.

One big annoyance for me was setting up a recurring transaction; initially, the columns were labled as Funds In and Funds Out, but as soon as I entered ANYTHING it changed to Debit / Credit. Now, I did take an accounting course in HS, did well and remembered much of it, but for some reason I still get confused on Debit vs. Credit.

I'll see if I can't make that at least consistent, if not more clear...

Happened to me.

[Grendel Drago]

I was turned down for my first credit card because I had no credit history. However, once I called the number on the card, explained that I had a job and how much I made, they accepted the application. So yeah, they turned me down, but it wasn't like I had to walk over hot coals to get the card.

Ledger

[massysett]

I have been searching for something like this for months; thanks!